e started uh good evening ladies gentlemen today is Tuesday March 22nd 26th we are uh starting the chelsford Conservation Commission meeting and uh I'd like to thank everybody for coming and remind you that the meeting is being recorded and uh is being televised and um so we will start with uh asking if there are any questions or comments or issues that anyone like to would like to bring to the attention of the commission that is not on our agenda um please raise your hand come on up to the to the thing I don't see anybody moving so I think we'll move on to our first item on our agenda so um we are getting ready to kick off a um a new uh release of the chelsford open space and Recreation plan um this is a uh a part of our town I don't know what you call it documentation and plans um that we do along with master plan and other other parts of our the way the town works and this is a planning document that is to be used to help us with uh acquiring property managing Recreation programs looking uh putting together feedback from people in the town on what we want to do going forward in the State uh in the in the town and um it also is very helpful for um for state grants for getting state grants it's nice to have a it's in fact required to have a an upto-date uh uh OD open space and Recreation plan so we are at the point in our calendar to um start that purpose we have a committee uh that's forming to do that work and we will be doing that work with ncog which is a local Regional government organization and um so what we want to do here is just do a quick uh confirmation of the uh people who have um either been volunteered or volunteered to the committee um I'm very happy to say that we have eight names um so from this Conservation Commission Peter span and I are going to be on the commiss on this committee um we voted that quite a few weeks ago and at least for now Pat Wes is here somewhere and she's going to be representing the select board and Paul McDougall uh again at least for now is representing the planning board and then we have four other names that volunteered uh based on our posting of uh looking for people to be interested so we have Max Jordan uh Dave sper Brian strip and Jerry Schmidt um so I'm really glad to hear that we have people interested in working on this on this plan we think it's about a year or so um I can't say for sure but I know some of you have worked on it in the past I think that's about the time frame this is an existing plan that we're going to be updating so we're not starting from scratch but it is a it is a major update as opposed to a minor update I think there's some distinction there I'm not entirely sure um just so you know we do have um commitment from Christine Clancy from DPW to also be participating with us and from David koun our agent to participate with us so we have a lot of support and a lot of interest and um I'm very pleased to um say that I think we're ready to go forward I'm hoping that the um members of the uh committee I'm going to ask for a a a a a motion to accept the um names that I read off um as members of this committee but um I'm hoping that we can kick off our first meeting with ncog um I'm hoping we can do it on April 16th at 6:30 do I see nods that that works from most of you at 6:30 here somewhere here in town hall I'm seeing nods so I think that's what we're going to we're going to do I'm seeing thumbs up so that's great um I'm open to if anybody um in that group would like to say anything I'm I'm open to that but um I'm not looking for that at all um okay so I would um any further any further comment or discussion about this um I think it's an important part of our town Charter but um I'm excited to move forward on this um yeah if I could just say um welcome everybody and uh I look forward to working with you all just two super quick comments um if you've looked at the old open space and recck plan you'll find a lot of cool things that are identified as action items that the town might take and a lot of those action items are big effort that are hard to put your head around so I look forward to everybody's thoughts once we get into that and then the other thing is uh the whole process as I understand it starts out with a lot of stakeholder surveys and engagement to truly understand what the community wants and I think I find that particularly attractive to make sure whatever comes out of this thing kind of covers people's interests so thanks Carl thanks thanks Carl I make a motion that we approve the those list of the eight members and also a big thank you to everyone that volunteered as well okay motion from Chris second from John any discussion go further discussion all in favor I I uh the motion passes so you guys are all in thank you very much uh appreciate you coming out here and uh again uh I look forward to meeting with you in a couple of weeks two three weeks I think it's three weeks from now maybe um from tonight and um you'll be hearing more from us in the meantime on kind of what to expect and we'll try to figure out uh the work I should add uh I do know of a couple of names of people that were interested in helping in the background so not necessarily being in the meetings but hey if we've got work we can add them in so if you know of anyone else that wants to just kind of in the background do some do some uh grunt work um we're happy to have those have those names so again thank you very much for coming out and appreciate your your commitment okay next on the agenda um so the next agenda item has been rescheduled April 9th Town Council cannnot make it tonight okay so this is 5961 Carlile Road yes okay so this is the eroding slope um is there anything that we need to do in the meantime no okay okay so um has been any discussion with the the parties uh between the parties no i' I've had a number of uh email conversations with town coun so I think he'll be prepared to advise the commission this is not a a hearing uh it's just a discussion um item right okay okay all right so we don't need any motion it's just delayed until the next uh the next session okay thank you and now a report from our liaison from the planning board Mr Chris lavali good evening uh tomorrow's agenda is going to be an extremely uh packed agenda for us um in a really long night uh we're going to be starting with the MBTA zoning uh it's probably going to be our final public hearing before we start presenting to the select board finance committee and then town meeting um hopefully we'll uh finish it up tomorrow uh then we're also going to be talking about 191 chumford Street uh Focus for that is going to be the traffic peer review 93 brick hiln uh we're going to be looking at the revised plans with the snow um the snow storage moved uh the uh soil testing and I think we're getting pretty close to a vote either next this meeting or next meeting potentially um 10 hildr is on the agenda we're going to be talking again about traffic issues revised plans and storm water uh and then 270 Bill RKA has been uh continued so we're not talking about that in our meeting and then we're going to be talk ending the meeting with accessory dwelling unit discussion um so we'll be talking about that probably my guesses are on midnight so um Good Luck any questions I don't think so have You' been hearing anything about the MBTA other towns are not accepting it so the only town that has passed its deadline and not um accepted it is um that one town ston is that down Milton mil Milton Milton that's what it is yeah all of the other towns are either in process or different stages but none of them that have reached the deadline have not accepted it so let not take any legs it's just one Community that's um there are a lot of groups uh opposing it in various towns and communities um but none of them have reached the deadline so even if it's even if it gets voted down at town meeting there are still opportunities to revive it and adjust it and get another vote in before the deadline all right thanks so we won't know until the end of next year or end of this year sorry December of this year is the next deadline thanks yep all right thanks thank you Chris appreciate the update okay regulatory hearings uh first one here is for a request for determination of applicability at the Hitchin Post Condominiums at 14 Prescott Drive Jeffrey brm from Meisner Bram Corporation is representing the applicant and I believe we have a notice yes sir Carl we do have a legal notice um pursuant to the provisions of the Massachusetts Wetlands protection act Mass general laws chapter 131 section 40 and the chelon wetlands bylaw chapter 187 the chood Conservation Commission will conduct a public hearing here in room 204 at the town offices on Tuesday March 26 2024 at 7: p.m. to consider the request for determination of applicability filed by Hitching Post condominiums on behalf of property owner Butler management for proposed work within 100 foot buffers Zone to bordering vegetated Wetlands at 14 Prescott Drive further identified as assessor map 26 block 93 lot 34 the project entails resurfacing of walkways construction of a retaining wall and replacement of six existing light posts Mr chairman thank you Chris so uh who is here representing the applicant uh I would to Mr chairman Jeffrey BM here represent and the applicant hello Jeff can you present your project sure certainly and and the reason why I'm not there with you is I'm all I'm defending you all because I got sick the last couple days and I don't want to get all you people sick appr do this by Zoom thank you for having a zoom meeting um I will just I know you have a busy agenda so I'll be as quick as I can this is an RDA for a project uh hitch and post uh Condominiums was built by Robert M Hicks uh got 40 or 50 between 45 and 50 years ago it's um these condominium projects is 71 at the end of Prescott Drive to the South sorry to the yeah south of this line here is Route three so it's adjacent to Route three Prescott Drive and to the north is the water department land uh the condos were all built and this project is just to do some resurfacing and some of the work happens to fall within 100 feet of the Wetland so the Wetland line was done by Leah basbanes uh so I'm going to follow with it with my hand off to the left there's a little Wetland it goes behind onto the water Department's land comes back on the right side as planned to the East and then comes down here and this Wetland is pretty extensive to the east uh so no work is being proposed um for these sections but at the far end we want to repave this uh walkway and we're going to talk about this walkway in a minute and the widen these are three foot walks to the units and the standard back then must have been 3 ft but it is 4 feet minimum now so they want to dig these out uh regrab them and put it down to 4 feet that's pretty much it on this plan and then there's a light pole that's currently on the water Department's land they want to take that light pole off and bring it onto their property uh and then put a couple more lights in this this is a tall pole 20 foot and they want to put a couple small 10-ft poles within the Ean this is being replaced this one's being replaced and this is a new one essentially it's moving from here to there uh now there's also I forgot to mention that David did David and I went out to the site yesterday and I he did say something about a retaining wall and I said no there is none but I forgot there is so David right here at the very far Corner this is a falling down retaining wall made of uh landscape Timbers it's about a foot foot or foot and a half tall and they're just going to replace that with that same the same location that's there now take out the rotting landscape timbers and put in some um block a block retaining wall now when we were out there David and I noticed a couple things that that weren't on the plan they are now on this plan in green we noticed a rip wrap area where my hand is now and there's a photograph of it down in the bottom it looked like it was brand new because the stones uh were brand new I was told today that um and I sent the supplemental report that this was actually here right from the beginning when Hicks built the project and recently they just repaired it and spruced it up and brought in some new stones but they put them on top of where the old Stones were so that's why it looks brand new and it's pretty evident because they use kind of like white rocks and then we also noticed David and I that along this edge of the uh current wide walkway here there's some erosion happening and I think I sent that in as a picture let me try to get that yeah here it is are are you seeing that sometimes I'm when I switch from one to another do you see a photograph right right now everybody no we're seeing a we're seeing a map yeah the plot yeah okay I have to do it this way sorry I had a feeling okay now all right so today I David asked me to write all this down so I wrote this down in a narrative so you have evidence of this Swale uh here and then this area here has some erosions so I have a photograph of it right here you can see that this is eroding and what we want to do is as part of this RDA is get permission to fill that in with LOM seed and get this whole area area which is barely you know you can see the dirt exposed it's just been there for a long time it needs to be rough smoothed up Rak and seated with some shade seed it's very shady back here so we'd like to have permission to do that stabilize this area once and for all you can see right over here this this is just dirt you know it should be grass it should be stabilized but it's exposed dirt right now so that's the project um and we and I told them that I wanted to do this um even though it's a small amount of work in the within the buffer zone the right way to do it is to get your permission so that's why we're here appreciate that so let's see if we have any more any questions David do you want to add anything before we I I had just one more question on Jeff um that I thought of after I met with you yesterday um so who's going to be doing this work is is the association or property owner going to be hiring a contract or is it going to be the management company doing the work do you know yeah they're definitely hiring a contractor I put in a bid package this all gets to be part and this uh will all be part of a bid package that they're going to put out to bid and they're going for landscape contractors what you don't see some of the other part of the project there's an irrigation project over here near the pool uh and there's a lighting project that replacing all these lights so it's a pretty sizable project all together okay that's all I have any other things from your visitor um no no nothing I mean it's pretty pretty simple straightforward I think can be a negative determination with standard conditions okay Chris uh so then there's no waivers requested then from our bylaw at all no way was requested good good very good n I'm good I have nothing giv nothing nothing no I went out there and took a look I agree with everything that you said so I'm fine okay Peter no questions good no questions all right well okay uh okay I'll take a motion public oh that's a good yeah thank you thank you Chris any any public comment anyone who'd like to speak on this going once going twice I guess not Mr chairman I now now make a motion that we close this public hearing motion from Chris to close the hearing second second from Bill all in favor I I motion is approved uh I'll take another motion uh Carl I move that we approve this request with a netive -3 determination standard order conditions with the standard conditions yes okay motion from Chris second second from Bill all in favor I I motion passes Mr brm Good Luck thank you very much for your presentation I hope you feel better thank you all and by the way some of you that are on the open space committee you may see my name cuz I do believe that was on the open space committee 20 years ago so oh so we can go to you for uh backstory huh yeah you can definitely check in with me but good luck in in your work and and thank you all for doing what you do thank you okay appreciate it good night bye okay thank you very much uh next one on our agenda here we have notice of intent uh so this is ink Holdings LP 191 chelsford Street and um we are uh looking at Mr Casey Ferrera hello Casey how is everyone tonight um play record Casey Ferrera with Howard s Hudson um since the last time I saw you we've gotten back the traffic peer ofie but that's uh you know planning related so we'll be back at planning tomorrow I know we continued this to tonight um kind of in the hopes that we could wrap up planning board coming up um I know the last time we spoke uh Peter and I discussed a little bit about the omm and the long-term pollution prevention plan uh we did get those comments in the middle of last week um I have not prepared a response I haven't had a chance to prepare a response to that yet um but we can discuss a little bit today if that's what you guys would like to do okay uh I know we have um some questions about the um the way the chemicals are stored in the in the building is there anything you um you can share about how that's yeah sure and and if there was some kind of a spill how it would be cleaned up right so with the chemicals within the building they all going to be stored within a material storage closet that's in the back of the building part of kind of that office space that so the front tunnel is where all the cars will move through the back kind of expansion do you know which sheet that would be on Casey I don't have uh I don't think the architecturals are in there but if you open up just the layout I can show you kind of the areas on the building so go two more sheets down down one more there you go so the entrance tunnel is here everything in the back kind of where it's expanded and a little bit longer that's kind of the offices SL material storage area so this whole strip down is the all the Mechanicals for it and then also material storage uh all material storage will have to be um as recommended by the manufacturer of those materials I can't recommend any kind of material or purpose of material or storage um requirements I'm not the manufacturer of the materials but um the owner and operator of the facility is going to be required to maintain all uh storage in compliance with those manufacturers and spill wise um there I I spoke with the applicant about uh spill procedure this morning uh he said he doesn't have one written up um typically what happens is any kind of deliveries they have their own kind of um procedures for if something were to happen coming in out of the trucks um they have procedures on how to bring the materials back and forth through the building they can't you know try and take 15 cases at once in case they're going to drop them and spill them so they have their own procedures as the delivery companies um he himself he said he would work to write up something for his employees so that if there was a spill there's a procedure that they can follow um but again as I'm just the civil engineer I can't recommend how they're going to deal with that in the future um what I can say is if there's some kind of hazardous spill on the site as far as storm water structures all these catch basins are going to be fitted with hoods so any floatables aren't going to be able to get through to the storm water system they're all going to be trapped within that catch Basin um at which time the the applicant or the owner and operator of the facility uh will have to have that catch Basin pumped and and cleaned out okay so I'm looking for questions from the the commission if uh John do have uh questions you want to ask bring up a lot of our questions were answered the first hearing you know where the water was going how much water is being used and everything I was all set with it back then okay I didn't have any real specifics okay they've got an extensive planting I know they're taking down a lot of trees but they get an extensive planning it's not going to be a bad looking facility you know so okay I'm good okay Peter yeah just the onm stuff we discussed yeah and so are we you're still looking to review that yeah the request or was to uh up upgrade the onm plan and the long-term pollution prevention plan I think we wrote a note yeah to UK Casey and the applicant so we want to see that I kind of want to address a little bit that you know there's certainly stuff in there you know changing some language and stuff that we're certainly fine with um some of it like uh inspections by the design engineer we're not going to be doing any inspections the design Engineers once we certify that it's been built in compliance um the applicant and owner will hire a maintenance company and an inspection company to come and do those if there's a problem they will come back and contact us so that's why we give the recommendations in the operation maintenance plan if there's sanding water if there's this then you contact us but I don't want to put in the onm that I will be inspecting it because I will not be doing that yeah I think the recommend ation was um to have the annual well have the inspections done yep under the direction of a professional my preference would be professional engineer doesn't have to be you guys uh but somebody that knows what they're doing not just you know someone that works at the car wash someone from a professional maintenance company will be the one doing it I don't know if they're going to have a professional engineer on staff so I don't want to put in there that it's required to be by or overseen by a professional engineer um I don't think that would be a typical staff to have at a maintenance company but that's just my opinion but certainly and and also in the planning decisions lately um as with DPW letters the DPW engineering department requires all of those um operation maintenance reports uh yearly so um due dat's going to be kind of when it gets built and then we'll work with the DPW to kind of establish a routine for their inpections and their maintenance and the engineering department will receive all of those uh annual reports as well yeah so I mean Carl I mean my view is simple uh we went through the onm plan and made some recommendations that are now in under review by the applicant so we'd like to see what they think and uh take it from there okay anybody else bill you have anything uh you all set with the the sewer with the water that's going I guess you the the sewer tiin sewer you you some of the water is going to the Sewer right anything was water from the interior of the facility is going through the sewer yes that is so that's has that been all we've already worked out with the DPW um an allocated flow and um what the DPW has done has been since that's just an estimation what we're going to do is kind of like a one-ear trial period if we go over over they're not going to we're not going to be in trouble for that what they'll do is they'll offer us the opportunity to purchase that additional sewer uh to allocate it to us but they didn't want to pre-sell it to us if we weren't going to need it is the do they have the capacity in L or Chumps does have capacity with the way their new sewer restriction is written um I don't know exactly how much I think the last time I spoke to them which was a few weeks ago they said they're somewhere in the order of 9,000 gallons per day they still had um and we're looking at I think we agreed on 2700 or so um but I'd have to look back in my notes to see but okay so what do what else do you have before the planning board on this I I believe the only open items on planning board um was they wanted me to look at how we could get more mature trees planted right away which um according to our lanscape architect is not a preferential um thing to do because it's much more difficult for more tree to adapt to a new environment than a young tree um so and then the traffic peer review just came in at the end of last week so nothing that has to do with our decisions no storm water and um well you have the buffer zone kind of impact but all storm water as it relates to you has already been taken care of and DPW signed off on that okay all right let's H call I don't have any other further questions on this the only one I did have before was the buffer and uh how it's going to be handled uh I think you addressed that to my satisfaction I think Peter had a couple more questions about it but uh whatever I know it did it for me thank you okay Chris sounds like we're really close to closing the hearing we just have to wrap up the omm plan yep and um and we're there we'll be ready to close the hearing I think so I think that's what's we're still waiting to see that plan like to see that is there a potential to condition the onm plan as part of I'm not inclined to do that these days right now I'm I'm i' prefer that we wait and and see that I'm open to if anyone else on the commission but that's been my feeling for a while it's probably the better practice honestly Carl you yeah I think the idea is that you know instead of bearing a lot of this stuff in the permit put it in the on andm plan and to my way of thinking that's particularly important because one of my comments as you recall was to create a Standalone om andm plan and a pollution prevention plan and keep it at the facility and train the workers once a year they know what to do so if we start separating some of the requirements from the written plan putting them in the permit then you're asking the operator to train people on both a written plan and a permit and to me it's just cleaner if it's one document um so that's my logic I think that's what yeah conservation commissioner School tells you to do as best practice as well okay um so so Casey could you Redline the changes you're making to the onm and long-term pollution prevention plan yeah I'd kind of like to get it back and forth before the next meeting so we don't come back and then there's you know another I think we'd be am minimal yeah if we can David can you know share it with us real quickly and we can look at it yeah just just want to be able to to quickly and easily see the the revision see you know how consistent they are with the requests y yeah and and David would it be to expedite this thing would it be appropriate for you and I to have a chat with Casey about some of the little details like like the ones he's mentioned already is that appropriate to try to iron that out or does it have to all be in front of I I don't think it's inappropriate it's up to Casey if he wants more than to help us spe this if you want to organize that that sounds good okay get this thing done assuming it's okay with the rest of the commission just get it done yeah let's let's wrap it up now yep okay yeah um this is a open meeting uh I would like to offer the opportunity for anybody from the town that would like to um talk I think we have uh one or two people that want to have a comment or two come up and please give us your name and address hi lri Meers 7 P Pine Hill Avenue chelsford um with all due respect to my friend in neighbor here um trees are a concern for us uh in the Westlands neighborhood we about 495 very noisy I'm sure some folks remember the sound barrier discussions in chelsford so uh sound mature trees um to folks who are about the highway is a concern of ours so uh just to address that I do have a question about sore um and that was in the DPW document that was um sent to me at 6:00 so thank you for that um I'm hearing 500 GPD gpds per day 2700 a th000 so I know that sewer capacity is a concern uh here in town um the other thing is the water I'm hearing 9 I read 98,2 7 gallons annually um so I think you know to all of us who are on a a water band level one Water band constantly I hope that that's addressed as well um I know you did bring up the chemical storage uh another concern of hours um you know I hope that's addressed in some of these documents that are submitted to this board um you know I think the the proximity to the aquifer um definitely a concern uh we all know we have pafs in the water I did read uh the website that is uh currently up for this for this business and it looks like they have some chemicals with some pretty long names uh that probably wouldn't wouldn't do well in our water system so other than that um I thank you for your time Casey would you like to respond to any of that um so again with the trees um we're taking out somewhere in the order of 50 or so but we're planting about 160 um those numbers are plus or minus u based on memory but um as far as the pasas goes we have confirmation from the manufacturers that there's no pasas in any of the chemicals that we're going to be using as far as that getting in the water none of that interior is getting into the storm water system so it's not going to be touching the aqui for at all it's completely contained going to the sewer system and going out to the little sewer plant um that's about all I got for respon the sewer numbers the the sewer numbers so those um I can't remember off the top my head the exact number so what we did was we came in with a number that um the the applicant thought was going to be adequate um when the sewer department or when DPW approached us um basically said that's fine but if you go over there's going to be substantial fines for that the applicant backed and said well I'd prefer to just purchase more than deal with fines in the future uh so what we did was we went in and met with DPW and agreed on a gallons per day um that they would be comfortable selling he wanted to buy more just to be safe but they weren't comfortable selling that much unless we proved that we needed it uh which is why we came to that oneyear kind of look back agreement um as far as the the water distribution the water district has to agree to sell us that water and if they didn't have that water they wouldn't agree to sell it to us can I ask you on the trees um out of the um how many did you say 50 you think I believe there was about 50 being removed it's tell the um the David if you can go up sheet are any of them inside our jurisdiction yeah so there's going to be quite a few within the um the 100 foot buffer zone so this is the 100 foot buffer zone so all these X's here are going to be trees that are removed nothing within the 50 nothing within the 25 for for large trees being removed um and the majority of these trees being removed are simply because we have to regrade the site um the site slows down so much as it is we have to basically pick up that into the site to they put the building down um but so the total 58 trees being removed and I believe the landscape plane shows 160 or so being uh planted back in okay I think uh she'd like to say another say another word I'm going to go back to the chemicals being stored I wasn't discussing PFS I know um Casey has spent a lot of time talking about PS there are many other chemicals um that will be stored in that facility that would be a problem if they entered our water system so understood thank you that's why we're going to look at their onm plan but could we get a list of the chemicals uh the products being used is it already public or it's on their they have some Tire cleaning and things on their website okay awesome thanks thank you okay anyone else uh want to say anything okay um ask Casey a question Casey on some of the Tre trees you're going to put back in are they going to be indigenous trees or are they going to be flower trees and stuff like that so there's uh significant natives that are being planted um if you go to the landscape plan David there's a actually the schedule couldn't fit on here it's on one of the detail sheets um but we had James Emanuel who's a local landscape architect what he does he he plants as many natives as he can so everything's going to be um kind of able to survive and thrive in this nature uh there is I asked him to make it aesthetic so there will be CU you know being a car wash in the area we wanted it to look nice um but a lot of the trees that are going in will be native and and indigenous to the area but they will be cultivars um probably um I I have recently learned about a uh a nursery in uh New Hampshire that I'm that I'm told sells uh Native non- cultivar so um I'm look I'm looking into that see if that's we'll look that for future yeah in in a proper face of the highway I don't see any new uh vegetation going in there the rear of the property yeah yeah we're not replanted we mainly wanted to make it aesthetic for the area so anybody driving by on that front side we'll see basically all the landscape and the aesthetic that we're trying to prepare um the backside is all an erosion control mix for the slope oh I think some of that would be important for sound barrier that's my thought I didn't realize there was nothing going in there I understand what you're doing there you're you're filling back there to cut down on the uh there is I mean there is significant Woods further back there's not we're only clearing out the you know 40 ft from our pavement to the to the um Wetland but or not even to the Wetland to the buffer zones um so there's still a significant area of woods that goes from the back of our property from the back of our disturbance there's the Wetland and all the vegetation existing in the Wetland goes all the way back to a Riverfront area with all the existing vegetation that's in the river front area all the way up to the highway but is there any reason why more more trees could not be planted to help address the sound barrier question I mean I think we all realize it doesn't have a big impact but maybe some if you're living right there someday it does grow in or it does more significant than it is yeah now wind wind direction yeah right right is is is that a possibility is uh yeah I don't know um I'll have to work with the landscape architect to see what we could propose on the 2 to1 slope back there um cuz I don't want to put a big tree that's just going to fall over in a windstorm and then end up damaging more than it helps maybe I you know I really what we do on a slope like that is really more bushes to keep the slope tight and I don't know if that's going to help with your noise yeah buffer um it's not going to be a big shade tree that's going to absorb vibration from the highway or anything okay what we can ask yeah I I think it'd be good you know I mean we heard the concern it' be nice U to have you go back research that and report back to us we try to encourage that no R developing yeah trees trees good it's a good thing okay so um I think what I hear is we want to hold off until we can get a look at the updated plan and um so I'll take a motion to continue the hearing until our next meeting which is the 9th April 9th April 9th uh I move Mr chairman that we continue this hearing until April 9th that we're getting as I we said getting close to closure but we've got uh those two open issues we're nailing down the M plan and we're uh going to research the issue of the uh that area on the 2:1 slope whether we can get some more uh vegetation vegetation bushes trees whatever yeah and and the chemical thing if I could just comment um I'm not sure exactly how that's regulated in town it strikes me it's not necessarily our a direct hit on our jurisdiction although it does have a potential impact on water quality but then you got the building department and there's all kinds of chemical storage requirements in the building code right and if there's enough of the chemical there's also some State you know hazardous material storage regulations I don't think that's us but there that is important so we have to be careful but it is important question to keep the stuff out of the water who who would have concerns out about jurisdiction Board of Health Board of Health maybe the building department and Fire Fire Department fire well a spill would come under mCP right bill would come under the mCP which we technically don't enforce but it has a huge imp on our jurisdiction but there must be a standard way of dealing with them with spills I mean if there's a spill if there's a spill of a regulated material you know there's a an approach but I'm thinking more in terms of uh you want to have spill containment you put all the stuff in a building you don't want it a leaky drum to drain outside the building onto the pavement and get washed into the storm water system and we don't technically I don't think regulate that kind of stuff although it does like I say affect our jurisdiction so I'm I'm not sure what the answer is I I feel like we need to talk to other Town departments and understand how that's handled okay I maybe David you can talk to a couple of your colleagues in town and see what we can find out okay yeah so we have a motion from Chris um I'll take a second second second from Peter so the meeting uh uh all in favor uh meeting is continued the hearing is continued until April 9th April 9th thank Youk thank you kie we have no no no we're Contin never mind it's all right good never mind okay next on our agenda we have uh 93 notice of intent continued from February 27th 93 Brick killan Road um and we have Mr Brian is here hello Brian uh thank you so for the record Brian goodro with Hancock Associates I believe we have Rich Kirby uh with LEC on Zoom I also have Jonathan Higgins uh with Higgins environmental so last time we were before you uh we had continued the public hearing and I think we're winding down or or drilling down on um kind of order language and I think David was was potentially drafting uh special condition uh since that hearing we had a little bit of movement on the water Department kind of process not the water department excuse me the Board of Health process um which is why we have John here this evening just to kind of describe uh what we've done out there for the hydro Geo study and any test results that are there we also received a letter yesterday that I believe was disseminated either um I know it was sent to the planning board it may or may not have made its way to the commission uh that the chenford water department has no further concerns um with this project or with the hydro Geo or or the Board of Health process um so what I'd like to do this evening is is have John give that highle overview um maybe a quick Q&A and then hopefully uh get back on track to potentially close the public hearing um so with that I'll turn it over to John thank you and good evening U my name is John Higgins for the record with Higgins environmental Massachusetts licensed s professional H PR I've worked Peter in the 1980s so get that out of the way um that was what a while ago years ago yeah that was a while ago a little bit longer maybe say saying to myself is that the same yeah that is that is okay so uh I was engaged by DND d uh this a a project with the Board of Health and the water district to do a hydrologic assessment environmental assessment of the property of 93 brick K Road and so they developed a scope of work for putting monitoring while so ground water standpoint survey and determination of groundwater flow Direction and that was done by geoh hydrocycle at Newton and when they gathered their data they recommended having an LSP engaged to review the data uh which is where I came became involved and that's my my report up there it's pretty lengthy but um so what I did is I looked at the the data uh as LSPs do in Massachusetts and uh the data was again developed uh for with the Board of Health and the water district it was include past and it also included voccs of all organic compounds these are all at the drinking water standard level as well as soil and groundwater standpoint um and so the property itself and it's you'd have to skim through a long way to find a figure but it's kind of a half a circle you know it fronts on brick UPS road behind it and then has a perimeter on the outside and the monting wells were put in along the Outer Perimeter from the road sort of to catch all the land areas and they're actually positioned to be hydraulically down gradient of the house where the septic system used to be apparently um and included some soil samples near where some refuse was those things that might people might be concerned about and I in turn looked at the data determine the environmental setting which is the topic of my report there so you know whether something's reportable or not which is really what the the initial determination is it determines what what's the environmental setting is it dring water area is it not are the residences on the property that sort of thing we did that and then we carried that through with the data and there are no reportable concentrations under of the mCP for this property um and so there is no reportable release there just not a condition that requires further action I in turn met with Brandon and and Lisa from the water district on Friday and they issued a report after that meeting we walked the property um not requiring any further action so that's pretty much my talk I okay Peter we can talk again some other time Peter actually Tom Nuno actually recommend I give you a call another matter so okay so why don't I why don't I just jump right in Peter do you have any um you you go down this hole better than the rest of us I think yeah I mean I mean John wrote a pretty detailed analysis I guess my view is you wrote a pretty detailed analysis you're putting your LSP stamp on this somewhere along the way uh and he's reviewed it with the water district which I believe we agree has the primary responsibility for keeping stuff out of our water so yeah I have a thousand questions but they're not particularly relevant to I think this board I think our our decision is you know are we uh accepting the results and uh taking it at face value and uh so I'm I'm not I'm not particularly inclined to advocate for a peer review or anything like that like on some of these trickier ones okay any other uh discussion from anyone else any other questions I read the report I feel comfortable with what you saw what I what I just heard and saw David did you did you read through it um I I know you've been busy so yeah I I skimmed it I guess the only question I had was so so have have you uh analyzed or evaluated the the uh sampling results in the context of infiltration of storm water um I mean I don't I I I one one thing I was curious about is where where were the sampling locations located with respect to like storm water bmps have a good feel for that so at the top level we don't have a disposal site condition which would kind of Warrant that higher level of assessment what are we going to exacerbate a contaminated site from whatever means so we haven't actually broached that level I mean this is essentially no different than you'd find on like any kind of background condition so I've I it's it's hard for me not to look at everything and consider everything is part of my job but I that isn't something that Rose to the top of a concern just because of the the concentrations we have David one one way to look at this and we probably don't want to spend a ton of time right now but I think the whole industry is struggling with that very question of background levels in other words we're able to measure these Trace Amounts of chemicals not just posos but that we couldn't measure 20 30 years ago and lo and behold we find them everywhere but you know if it doesn't exceed a standard you know you don't get excited about it so your question is relevant but we don't really have the science and ability to drill down that final level of detail not just on this side I mean in in general with anything that we do so I don't if that helps that's kind of how I look at it yeah if I can add to that though so so those those criteria that I compare them to actually include the best knowledge for background so what's analytically possible which is amazing right and then also what what you would expect to find irrespective of a disposal site and those reportable concentrations incorporate that because that's how they they're fair about the analysis they can't expect you to test for set a detection limit that's lower than a quantitation limit at the laboratory because no one could ever get there I think excuse me David I think your Point's well taken if I remember I might have gotten this mixed up but I think our DPW storm water team recommended some additional infiltration test pits to meet the storm water requirements and of course that's kind of where you're going if you infiltrate a bunch of groundwater onto the site is that going to cause some sort of release I think what the data are saying where the contamination was found right and I think what the data so far is saying there's not any real contamination okay I mean I mean look In fairness I mean what is it is it a seven acre side I mean In fairness you know I mean it's possible there's a pile of junk somewhere that you miss but I think that's inherent in this industry this business you you don't sample every cubic meter of soil on a site you get a licensed professional to use best judgment to figure out the dump the former septic tank so okay all right thank you thank you very much Brian do you have more that you need to add I'm not trying to put you on the spot here um uh I don't so we just wanted to give that update for full clarity of what was going on um I think we've done that and you know I guess the question is is there any other concerns that the commission has um preventing us from closing the hearing well I I I I I would like to continue it one more time um because um wasn't because this was going to be presented tonight I wasn't prepared to you know uh review the the draft special conditions so well well the other thing the DPW stormw water team just wrote a memo recommending some additional test pits or have I got this mixed up with the other I don't think it's on this project not maybe I mix these up I tend to do that yeah um so I I think I I think um that we can close it next week um okay um Carl let's do that why don't we um why don't we continue to our next meeting of April April 9th and that'll give you know our agent a chance to prepare the draft order of conditions for us to review and we'll be in position then to close and perhaps even take a vote that night on the order of conditions uh to get this thing moving forward I think that sounds sounds reasonable to me so I'll make a motion to that effect that we come back hopefully one more time on the 9th have some draft conditions then before we do that um we have some folks from the audience I think who would like to talk um I uh yeah okay so why don't we let Ruth talk for a few minutes we we I know I think you sent a letter just this evening yeah but not on this one I didn't get a chance to write it out okay so so would it make sense for us if you could I know you're going to have I'll just say it quickly I me partly I'm really confused I don't Joel's just bringing up the the report the LSP report because I thought that I was seeing on that that it did indicate an area on the northern part of the site that had um a high level of past um for the groundwater um I don't remember the number of the location Joel's trying to find that right now um I thought they were the levels were like 80 and 90 that there were two test dates in January January 3rd and January 9th January 3rd and 9th I don't know if you saw that Peter what what page of the report is that on PDF page 18 so my question is that I was taking I was assuming I was reading that correctly um that that's being on the Northern side there's a large area of subsurf infiltration on the Northern side in that vicinity and so I was hoping that there would be groundwater mounting not for the purpose of Separation but to see what would be done in that area as to is it going to cause that to spread is it going to cause it to go off site onto somebody else's property um and additionally I would like to I would prefer to have some testing done in the beds because it's going to if there is something there it's going to be sending it out so that's what I was going to ask I didn't anticipate having to write down the numbers I just ran out of time at home but so that was my question so I was really confused by what I was was hearing here Qui formality did did she State her name and address I'm sorry Ruth Luna ten Carter okay I just want to make sure trying to be consistent here okay um yes we we we know who you are no I I understand I should have said that yeah um so what what were the dates again the test dates there were January 3rd and January 9th two table two yeah I guess you can just say you have to give your name then too so maybe Mr Higgins could respond to that do you have do you have some qu yeah sure why don't we let the uh the LSP okay so I so this is John Higgins again so uh I think she's referring to mw1 which is the groundwater and we the the groundwater samples were collected in the beginning of January uh and those are the locations that they you can see the table there uh there I highlighted them in blue so whenever there's a detection it's in blue and if there happen to be anything excess of reportable concentration it would be like bold yellow like a highlighter which there is which there is none and so it's it's less than the reportable concentrations for that area that's the environmental setting part of the LSP review I do it's all pertinent to the environmental setting it's less than that so and it's actually the similar question that David had already asked um I don't recall the reportable concentration in Massachusetts for you going to put me on the spot here you don't right you know I I've actually gotten to the point where I look it up almost every time because it can change but it's on the table if you if if David moves if you can move to the you'll see it on the side there it's actually significantly higher than the results that we have and I actually I have my own my own little cheater table here so I can I can tell you what that is it's a big difference for non-drinking for that area but I think that's the challenge is is you can measure it the question is is it regulated is it reportable I think maybe that's what we're talking about here is does it reach the level of concern um all right so it's all right so you ready uh 40 million that's it's 40 000000000000 yeah this is nanograms per liter nanog so 40 parts per so it's is the report ,000 parts per billion right is is that the reportable or that's the reportable concentration and we had 90 to 80 nanograms per liter so it's it's significantly less than that yeah it's it's really and you know to Peter's Point too this p is is everywhere and it's they're persistent in the environment and they're they're in like residential septic system it's it's it's it's everywhere and so that's you're going to see some reflection on that too but those those nanogram numbers are always scary whenever you whenever you correlate it to an actual number but um so I'm hearing then it's it's not above the reportable level then is what I'm hearing then oh sorry I thought that came from behind me no it's not it's not above the reportable concentration it's well below it good that's why I didn't follow through okay I I mean Chris one thing we could do I mean we could go full Bo and get our own peer review if if the commission has doubts another thing I assume just let's just chat with our friends at the water district and ask them if they took a super deep dive when they wrote their letter saying they didn't have any remaining concerns well did they have concerns when you spoke to the agent well they had concerns that the primary concern they had was whether it was going to be a municipal sewer or not that's the primary concern they had and they had read the report too so maybe maybe they had some concerns before they read the report um but it is on the municipal sewer system will be do we have anything in writing from the water district basically saying that they're okay no I haven't received anything I mean it' be good to get something in writing from them I think just to confirm that they have no issues yeah I'm sorry did did you get that already okay can you share that with David yeah yeah let's get that over to David and I think that'll help us feel more com that if we can get that and then we can look at the um the other stuff between now and then um then I think we we're good to go so I'll make a motion then then we continue to uh April 9th thank you very much thank you okay motion from Chris to continue to April 9th second second from Mark all in favor I I uh motion passes we will see you April 9th I think we'll be very close at that point hopefully yeah okay we are now at uh notice of intent from March 12th this is continued from March 12th 10 hildr Street so I see David and Brian are here representing the applicant um so we had some actions at the last meeting we went out a number of us went out to the site and visited it a week and a half ago on a nice bright warm Saturday morning we didn't get coffee did we no no well one one of us brought some coffee okay good so um we were going to get some new plans you did stake the tree line I appreciate that um and also there was um David was looking at the Vernal pool so those were the things that we had um opened from that so do we have revised engineering plans I'm forgetting did we get those we did okay we get a chance to look at these I have not myself um question yeah go ahead part of our problem with uh water recharge are resource area is deceptic systems one of the applicants before you that there uh carow wash they're going to use City storage and there is there is space left for other projects to be on City surge why isn't it your best interest to do City surage on the you you have one the existing house you require four more I believe what it was uh correct so there's an existing sewer connection for the house that's there right now now dpws mandate policy whatever it is applies to commercial properties for expanding their sewer use their their sewer capacity new commercial properties they do not offer that for residential projects okay so we do not have an opportunity to connect into sewer um for this parcel however uh lot five is reusing the existing sewer connection for the building and considering that it's a duplex DPW is allowing the other half of that duplex to connect into sewer um because it is a three-bedroom unit three-bedroom unit corresponds to 330 Gall per day and the cap for residential expansion of an existing use is 500 Gall so they're viewing that duplex unit as an expansion of the existing house allowing the whole duplex to be connected to Su where they read that yeah so um do you want to go through the updated plans sure um so probably the grading sheet would be the best that is on sheet [Applause] five now this is a couple of meetings ago um I we had come in with an exhibit plan showing the the five lot revision and this is a fully engineered version of that exhibit plan so everything that we're going over um today we we briefly touched on a couple of meetings ago so as originally proposed um the existing house was coming down a new Private Road going in with a six lot subdivision uh we are in the RC zoning District so each one of those lots will have a duplex on it as a part of the planning board process as a part of natural heritage uh the plan has subsequently been revised down to five Lots so the elimination of lot four which is the rear most and southernmost lot the lot that was closest to To The River and the flood plane um that's the lot that we eliminated so essentially what we tried to do is pull back our limited work as much as possible from uh jurisdictional areas from from resource areas we eliminated that that one unit and we also took a another look at storm water management on how we could reduce site impacts and what we landed on is an underground system below the culdesac so previously we had an infiltration Basin kind of adjacent to Lot 4 well we buried that under the roadway as a part of roadway development so basically we're we're not expanding our limit of work beyond what we absolutely need to for for roadway construction so the new underground system drainage uh from the road will be collected by catch basins as it was before it'll go into a hydrodynamic separator for enhanced TSS treatment and then the underground system are are storm Tech Chambers so they're the plastic arches the inlet row of th that underground system is also going to be configured in an isolator row and that's stormt ads is kind of proprietary filter practice um so we're getting an even higher level of TSS treatment out of this before uh storm water ultimately um infiltrates goes into the ground uh as a part of this revision we've also kind of uh eliminated the compensatory storage aspect of the process because we're no longer all in flood plan um Lots the the new lot designation if you if you look at the the subdivision the top left um lot on hild Street the north northwest corner they go clockwise um one through five so lot four is now the lot the what was um lot five and lot six is now lot 5 so on lot four uh we did the same thing we looked at kind of where the the the septic system was located how the lot was being graded uh now that we don't have the infiltration base in there we tried to to tighten up that lot a little bit and and keep development as close to the road as possible so there were some minor tweaks um on that one lot um in terms of of roadway construction itself uh we had previously proposed uh a private road uh that required a number of waivers from the planning board so as a part of the process that we're going through right now um we've revised that road to be a fully conforming subdivision road so now there's sidewalks on there there's uh 26 ft of pavement Granite curbing everywhere not necessarily Dain to the commission but it does um dovetail Into the Storm Water Management design so when we revised the road we lost lot four but we expanded the road roadway a little bit net that we're probably about the same amount of impervious but again to go back to that limit of work and and site disturbance that's required uh to construct the subdivision it's significantly less um in that back corner where those resource areas are um and that that's generally the the um kind of summary of of our changes to date okay uh questions from the commission on these changes we'll have other topics that we'll get to but uh let's focus on these changes John do you have any anything you want to start uh we can come back to you if that's okay yeah uh did you determine about the the water the veral pool um well that that that's on for in a little bit we'll get there yeah I got storm water now all no I have nothing Peter I have one question and Brian forgive me for not having this answered when you gave up your Saturday morning and showed us around the site um we have the residents photographs of standing water which I thought was presented to us as being on the current lot for if I'm reading this correctly is that do I have that right are those do we know my recollection was it was that standing water was UN a lot to the north of this property okay just to potentially shed a little bit of light on that if you look at the existing site topography yeah we're all sloped towards um you know the brook so it would be highly unlikely for that amount of standing water to be anywhere and plus I don't think anyone saw evidence of that when we were out walking around well what's interesting is uh I that's probably enough of enough conversation at the moment because I don't I don't I think it's outside of the FEMA flood plane which is our jurisdiction yeah so I don't even think it's jurisdictional for us if there is some other flooding going on and why don't we just bookmark that for later because I know there's been a number of Citizen uh observations or comments concerns about flooding which may or may not be our jurisdiction so why don't we come back to that and I don't have any other comments on the revision anything not right now Mark no I'm just I don't I'm don't want to understand where to Vernal pool if there is one existing there okay the only question that's yeah Chris do you have any no another on the revised points okay so I just have a question for so so I just today I saw a um a letter from DPW MH uh with review comments on this uh latest plan that didn't have a chance to um really read it uh so um are are there issues they raised that you need to respond to or so we received the comment letter today as well um so I gave it that brief glance and the one actionable item that we're going to be um doing is conducting additional soil testing um so we don't have test bits in the exact location of the underground system so we're going to go back out there and dig the appropriate amount uh the rest of it appears to be easily um addressed so so um are is the intention to have someone from DPW witness yes T so could you please keep me in the loop on that absolutely okay anything else David uh not on that so I I think it sounds like we're good on the plan for the moment um might be wanting to look at it some more uh but uh you look like you yeah um I mean there were some other issues floating around I'm not sure where we are at them the natural heritage letter Turtle plan I'm not sure I think we'll get to that that's we're getting that so we are we going to talk about this for a while longer or yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah this I'll beet it's like three other items on the agenda cover on this okay yeah yeah so so in terms of the I we talked about the the site visit um uh we we had a a good visit so we I don't know if anybody wants to share any thoughts or whatever from our from our walk um any uh we were all there I think yeah yeah everybody was there yeah seven commission six commission yeah uh any well yeah thank you that was very helpful yeah okay so we had a it's always good to get out there and see um it's you look at the maps the plans and everything and uh till you get out there it it makes it a lot easier we we were out there for over an hour it was is very good time we spend yep yep okay so then um next on our list here there is a um proposal from CI um for a review of the historical vegetation REM removal so you know when we were there um we didn't see any evidence of recent tree removal but we have heard from residents that it wasn't long ago that there were significant number of trees removed and um so the proposal from CI um David do you want to go through what this proposal looks like sure so um Ju Just U um just a little bit of uh going back to the last meeting the commission did uh in indicate a desire to have this historical analysis done uh directed me to get a proposal from CI so uh CI Pro propos proposes to go back uh 10 years um past reviewing um uh a aerial photographs primarily aerial photographs uh of the site uh over going back 10 years um in an attempt to make a determination uh you know was you know the the extent of uh tree and shrub clearing uh if any in areas under the conservation commission's regulatory jurisdiction um and and and and using and using the current uh Wetland delineation plan uh as as part of that uh review uh and Analysis um so the uh CI uh the proposal is to conduct one site visit um the uh and then and then issue a a report uh and and attend uh one one commission uh meeting um so I I have I I did forward the draft proposal to Brian and Dave um for the review haven't did not hear a response um to it I have a response yeah so um if I may uh we did look at the the scope of The Proposal we got it uh I think following the S sidewalk I think the S sidewalk itself was very very um informing and we of the opinion based on you know what we've seen in the field and our historic that we there was no clearing done on the site um so we do not feel that a peer review of aerial photography um is is warranted in this case if if there are specific concerns that the commission has in this area this is the area that we just vacated from uh the development so essentially this was that section of lot four that uh we're no longer going to be developing we know we're going to have um some restoration plans for natural heritage for uh some of the refuse piles that were out there if there are specific items that the commission would want to see in those areas I mean we could entertain um you know amending and and adding to the plan versus spending money on a a peer review okay thoughts I'm open to uh thoughts from the commission Chris do you have a I mean I was out there I I saw some trees that appear to been really very old that have been cut many many years ago but I didn't see anything recent when I walked to site we were out there for over an hour that's my thoughts Mark well between the original Google map that was what 105 years old is that one the veget shown the vegetation and the most recent one there was a difference but I I don't know how you could delineate what was taken out and how much but was an obvious difference well it would it would be something uh similar to what CI did for the chelsford lumber property um I think they they actually I thought were were able to come up with a with with a pretty you know accurate and precise um you know determination of trees that had been cut I know I know there was a little bit of a disagreement between the figure they came up with and you know what the applicant uh felt but you know there there was you know there was a compromise that was reached at some point you guys comfortable for what's there now and what we what we saw let's see what else Bill uh I didn't see any new tree cutting when I was out there either um how much is the quote from CI 3900 3900 3900 um not that that matters I'm just curious um I'd like to hear what you propos in the areas where the possibly the trees were cut you're going to do some restoration work out there would that mitigate any trees that were cut yes the mitigation plan I mean Dave Dave might be able to speak to it a little bit better it's not going to include trees so that would be something that the commission would specifically have to request um it's going to be removing of debris trash and then and restoring ground cover back to the condition that we kind of saw that was out there I'd rather see the 3900 put into trees or whatever to replant out there if there's cuz I didn't see any myself any uh sign of trees being cut very recently well yeah but we're talking okay so this is this is IND dangered species habitat under our town bylaws and the state Rags we also believe it's probably important wildlife habitat just because it's a long river metal Brook which the state has designated as a the one big important Watershed habitat in town I don't think we're talking about trees cut over the last year or two I think we're talking about what has been done over the years so let's not go down that road of I didn't see any trees cut we're talking about like 10 years but but to your point I'm sorry but to your point I like your point because the reason I was interested in the natural heritage plan um is hey if if if the idea here is to restore turtle habitat right exactly I need the experts to tell me do we want trees there or not right and likewise if there isn't a reason a habitat reason to control the trees it'd be you're right it'd be a nice compromise if the applicant was willing to plant you know a bunch of trees you know to to sort of make up the difference but you don't want to do that if the turtle guys and gal say don't do it so I you know I'm kind of looking at that but is that going to come out of that report I don't know if it's that detailed we haven't seen it you more whether the trees were cut or not right it is oh oh his report no no his wouldn't help us with well no it is uh it is included in the proposal that CI will also assess those areas where within areas of priority habitat or an estimated habitats a rare uh Wildlife at the time of the alteration so they will they will revie view that okay I'm sorry thank you and and there's one other thought I had is um our bylaw does give us the authority I think to request a a wildlife survey and I know we you've had some discussions with the applicant um um but that's another reason I think to do something like this CI study because it's not a wildlife study but that what you just read they are going to look at answering this question what's important for Habitat purposes so that might be another way rather than argue about doing a wildlife habitat at the applicant's cost I'm interested in what natural heritage says what CI would recommend in terms of habitat and then the commission can decide if that's enough to satisfy Our obligation under the habitat part Wildlife part of our bylaw does that make sense um yes um I I'll have something to add after jump thank you uh so you're all set Bill Peter you've said your piece uh for for the moment yeah and John anything I'm set yeah can I can iine on that so yeah actually I was hoping you would okay oh thanks so in in consideration of of of historic take of trees um again it is of my opinion that we are sort of going down the rabbit hill of looking for we were out there in the walk we didn't see any evidence of of of tree clearing that I don't know what CI would see different than what we observed we could look at excuse me I'm just let me finish my thought process so in in the matter of take of trees let's consider that there was what would you guys impose Upon Us replanting of trees is is what I would surmise we have restoration areas that we're proposing now with natural heritage outside of the limits of diservice as Brian had pointed out and we pointed these out in the field during our site where we have junk piles that we would remove that and and there there's there's the progression if you look at avoidance minimization and mitigation I think we've avoided and minimized and we're at the point of mitigation right if if if 10 trees were taken what do we do we plant 10 trees we can do that we have identified areas that are still close in proximity within habitat for if and again on the veral pool investig let's just consider it as right we'll treat it as such that that in in the forested areas we could reforest some of those areas by planting 20 trees and and we have the opportunity to do so without skipping a beat so um I just feel like to have a peer review is is not necessary in terms of of what the outcome will be and and what we would propose to do to mitigate if there were a take of trees we're happy to put trees in our restoration plan okay thank you Peter I I I sense you you I think yeah I think we're zeroing in on on the obvious point you know if trees are cut they're gone the question is what is the best thing to do to that site right well you need some guidance from you're working with natural natural heritage now we are y so if you're going to put trees and you can't just put them willy-nilly you need abely do what it's going to if you're going to do the turtle habitat like we discussed Y where the debris is it's not it's not um they're not conducive to one another in in terms of what we're doing for um did you send a copy of the well we just made we just sent um some markups to what natural heritage is waiting on for us is they've they've sent us that the current development that we've proposed to them will not result in a take conditional upon some other items which are essentially conditions as you would with an order of conditions that comes from from natural heritage they've conditioned that they wanted to see us do some additional um uh nesting habitat restoration and um enhancements which is what we've we've just proposed to them we've um Incorporated uh upwards of 5,000 square ft of additional degraded habitat that we're going to improve and make better for testing Turtle nesting habitat now the turtle the substrate that they need to nest in isn't really conducive to having mature trees in there but there is outside of our I was hoping we had the plan available where we could at least no sorry about that but as we walked around the site where you saw the the the drunk pile there's also a void in that tree canopy which is all invasive species over there I think there was like Japanese knotweed and some other species we could take that degraded area and remove invasive species and put in a tree planting plan of 20 25 trees throughout that surface area to take a degraded area that that's currently absent of trees that's not serving as yeah suitable habitat and enhance that area as mitigation for any perceived taken trees or sins of the past that makes a lot of yeah that makes a lot of sense and again forgive us cuz we haven't seen that natural heritage recommendation so we're running in a vacuum but that makes sense yeah well one of the areas you pointed out that with the sidewalk was where the Corral is that would be the ideal spot where nesting would be but that's going to be changed when the roads and the grading is being done there so it's not going to exist after the development is that correct no that that that area of open sand is actually where the Corral is is actually going to be preserved that's one of the most important habitats that doesn't really need upgrade or portions of it yep there is yep where the coral comes down but um the go ahead oh sorry y but the areas of enhancement we we've when when I did the wildlife habitat evaluation there's different habitat types the the most as I talked about during the walk that um sparer basis habitat is is the most ideal the open sand habitats are second and then denser basis is a little bit degraded and that's the areas where we focus the turtle nesting um enhancements over is dense denser bous vegetation where we would clear that out of uh invasive species do some um thinning of vegetation there amend the soils to add sand content for turtle nesting and then we have a planting plan of um especially zerich soil type species that would fare well like little blue stem uh sweet Fern and then we have a native planting mix to go in there CD mix it's an herbaceous sparse CD mix that would go in there but just beyond where where that junk pile is is the location where I was saying you have degraded opportunity for mitigation by invasive species and um uh affording tree canopy so I would actually propose the trees outside of the the square footage of footprint that we've proposed for turtle nesting habitat that we could carve out additional surface area there yeah and and I think that's important because what we what I recommend we look at is if if if the applicant can engineer a good plan relative to Habitat with natural heritage help then I'm guessing that habitat value will be better than it is now because now it between the inv everything you just described habit pile of trash so if we can make it better and then the problem of course is always long-term maintenance and keeping it that way but then you've sort of restored the riverbank which is I think what we're trying to do right that's positive assume the trees would cut we're trying to make it better yeah instead of spending $3,900 for somebody to say the trees were cut assume we the trees were cut let's spend that money on on doing the mitigation doing the mitigation work in that area yeah I think we're getting more bang for our buck right as as long as we know the right thing to do which I don't think at least I don't no and I and that's where we discussing it before you brought up National Heritage if you're work with National Heritage under their guidance on how this should be done correctly I don't want to just throw trees in it any which way right for no reason just to spend $3,900 that's not my point my point is get the big bang for the buck spend that money on things that'll make the site better rather than a study that's going to tell us well yeah trees were cut maybe this happened or that you know we don't know that's right that's right so um I think on this item I think I'm hearing the Commission in agreement that we're not recommending that we proceed with the CI proposal am I do we need to vote on that or are we all nodding or you think it's advantageous we do Peter are we well can I jump in I mean it feel I feel like we need to see what natural heritage has done first before making that decision okay cuz I don't know what they looked at did they look at the whole property or did they just look at little turtle mitigation area and say never mind the rest of the because we're talking about really the rest of the property that's right they they they did look at the the rest of the property it was um allinclusive again they're not subject to the same jurisdictional boundaries that the wetlands protection act is they're subject to where natural heritage mapped habitat is is on the lot um so that is all inclusive with the exception of what was the northern lot that is becoming part of the lot now there were there were two lots that are being combined in the northern l [Music] not the new sub subdivided Lots but the existing there were two lots that were being combined and there was one rectangular lot north of theirs that that that wasn't mapped habitat but we included it in in the the evaluation as well so we're going to see this is that right the natural heritage yes okay okay so to provide further update just in in terms where we stand with natur so they they they've requested this um uh turtle habitat restoration enhancement plan which we submitted as of today we're happy to share copies with you it's in draft format we expect comments from natural heritage but the other conditions that natural heritage um has noted that they will impose upon us to avoid uh a take of the species by by these conditions would be to put the remainder of the property and and have a restriction on it it doesn't they they explain it doesn't necessarily need to be a conservation restriction but by some other mechanism of of restricting any expansion of development on the property in the future and maintaining those conserved areas in perpetuity as it would be recorded at the registry of deeds they did impose on us to have the split rail fence around the limits of development with signage that states that this is conservation area Beyond this point that there are to be no mowing dumping snow storage or alterations of any kind we will include all of these restrictions and conditions with any operations and maintenance plan that would be carried by any homeowners association that is to be um instituted upon sale of these homes and then um there's it would be subject to a turtle protection plan and this is standard operating procedure for for construction projects and map turtle habitat what a turtle construction Turtle protection plan is is that during the active season for turtles if you're constructing any time from April 15th until op October 15th that you need to have a turtle exclusion barrier which is effectively a silt fence that's put around the entire footprint of development during construction such that Turtles can't migrate into the limits of development they'll hit the silence and it will deter them from from entering that site it requires monitoring by a qualified Turtle biologist it requires training of all um um operational staff that are on the construction team of of what what to do if they witness a turtle how to report it how to contact the turtle biologist monitor this is pending it's normally something that is submitted um once you have a known start date and a better execution so we we know that that's forthcoming but that will be another condition impos and I assume natural heritage may have put some conditions for the riverbank because that's where some of the missing trees are if you looked over the edge they're kind of shoved into the river so I assume that would be part of the mitigation plan to make the bank Turtle friendly no that's not part of our plan power lines there it's actually close to not even being part of the property right yeah it's from no that's and that's where natural heritage has has noted that if if you look at um where I would propose to put trees in is outside of the easement the natural heritage had pointed out that anything that we propose within the transmission easement cannot be we can't promise that those things in perpetuity because the utility whether it be National Grid that the next time they have to um add a shield wire to their poles they're out there matting around the poles or or they they're at Liberty to modify that area subject to their own operations and maintenance procedures um vegetation maintenance and management to maintain clearance distance from the poles so we can't do that we we had not proposed any um um work on the banks in fact you know Fallen trees in the water body or that's overwintering habitat for wood Turtles I don't I don't see an issue with that yeah actually that part of the property that I looked at is not uh it's not part of the property the river is not part of the property that's my mistake sorry okay all right okay so I it sounds like we we want to be able to take a look at this National her natural heritage uh report and take a look at that we'll we'll do that by the next meeting soon as soon as I get it yeah yeah right uh and then the next item on our list here is the conservation agent uh report on the initial bural pool survey uh okay so uh Joel Luna and I went out uh yesterday um and we found uh evidence of uh breeding of uh uh spot salamanders um there's there can you just reset us up where exactly on the like this was yes yes um oh you're getting there so um so we we we we identified uh or or or yesterday uh we we identified two um areas uh I think they're they would be distinct confined Bas and depressions um one one of them I'm I'm showing uh egg masses here from uh and I will show you the egg masses in um the photo were found down in this area right right here um so uh there that's there's um an obligate number of egg masses or sufficient number of egg masses here for uh there to be uh a a certifiable Vernal pool um in that area um let me bring that up again so again that's that's this area down here um another another area just to the south of it again which I think is a um a a separate uh distinct uh depression we found three salamander egg masses um now five uh obligate uh egg masses are required for it to be uh certifiable um there's there's still time for additional egg masses to show up or we we could have missed them um there there could be five or more out there I certainly think doing another um uh site visit uh another survey uh is important uh in in within the next month uh and then and then to the south of that pool we found we found a um another uh distinct uh depression which actually has quite deep water um I'm sure Joel will speak to this my understanding is that he has heard wood frogs calling down there we did we did not find uh any uh egg masses um um but again it's still it's still conceivably early for wood frogs um so so I I think uh ra raises a couple of concerns uh I think significant concerns um let me uh let me go back to the this plan so um f first of all is that um wooded uh Upland buffers for vernal pools are extremely important because that's where the critters are living outside of Vernal pool season um I've I've been out on site uh enough uh at this point to have seen that uh in in the the area where we have the confirmed Vernal pool in other words the requisite number of egg masses to make it certifiable um this is this is proposed Lots four and five you know this is this is good up plan habitat by and large for the critters it's not heavily wooded but it's sufficiently wooded to be able to pry the habitat there's quite a bit of leaf litter out there um so I I I I I it's clear to me I think that that's good Upland habitat um in the buffer zone for uh the the salamanders um the uh the other the other concern is that uh what what um role would this Vernal pool or vernal pools Possibly play in the life cycle of the wood turtles or or the rare turtles out there I mean it's it's it's well known that um you know blandings Turtles and wood Turtles utilize vernal pools as part of their uh annual life cycle um you know are they are they um are they using the spal pool as you know a temporary migratory area from which then they're they're uh accessing uh you know the the northern part of the site from that um is development of the property going to interfere with that migration so uh that's that's the second concern um uh potentially with vernal pools now now the bylaw the the the Cher Wetlands bylaw um protects um buffer buffers to um vernal pools so I I not not so much under the WPA um unless unless it's rare species but but the bylaw definitely does protect buffer zone habitat of vernal pools so just wanted to uh you know sort of set that stage um my as far as moving forward uh my my recommendation would be that need a need to get at Le at least this obligate veral pool the ciable Vernal pool need need to get that boundary uh uh delineated and mapped um that's the first step and then and then after that we we we need to know we have need to have a better understanding of just how the buffer zone to that Vernal pool is going to be impacted um the the as far as far as the the existing tree line is concerned that different plans are showing you know different um you know configurations of that still haven't seen a well there's a proposed limit of work that's shown I guess maybe we we we we can assume that that's the um the uh the final Tree Line the post de the post-development uh tree line but but I think we we we need we we we need to try and get a um some sort of I think a quantifi a Quant quantifiable measure measure of you know the impact to the the buffer zone you know in particular the Lo the loss of um uh you know additional plan habitat for the um for the Vernal pool species the other the other the other thing the other thing I will point out is is that the bylaw um specifically allows for cumulative impacts so it doesn't necessar so the commission uh has the authority to not only take into the account take into account what's currently being proposed but but also o over the years o over the um even offsite even off of this property how how has the uh the Upland habitat you know the buffer zone of the Vernal pool uh been uh degraded I means uh there's there's on on on uh you know the the house lot which this property is located the veral pool is located I mean lawn the lawn comes right up to the edge of it so I think that's that that the commission is allow to take that into account okay thank you thank you David um I can David could you uh respond I'd be happy to so um yeah no as once once we looked at that feature and you said that you were going to look to see if it was Vernal pool we just presumed yeah let's call it a Vernal pool and protect it as as though it is so yeah Vernal pool species they they require Vernal pool obligate amphibians at least the the spotted salamanders um those egg masses I don't know if those were spotties or or wood frog at this point no those are spotted they're kind of small and there's there's spotted salamander yeah they could be it's it's small I've seen enough spotted salamander a I I did stay at a holiday in last night 23 years of advanced degrees in wildlife biology um they're they're a little early right now to tell no you're right those could be spotted salms but they're what I not noce about these and wood frogs are are obligate amphibians as well so it doesn't take anything away from whether or not let's say they're spotted Zen wood frogs out there doesn't matter these my concern with these is that that these OVA when when they're deposited they they begin to expand after this is early right now in the stage of laying and depositing egg masses the fact that there's a cluster of 1 two 3 four five six seven8 nine 10 egg masses all in one cluster that's more behavioral of wood frog spotted salomet tend to do it deposit it in um single or or maybe two at a time um these things will expand uh uh with water they're hydroptic so when if you look at a wood frog which is actually quite small and their egg mass is the size of a softball the egg mass starts off very small and it hydroptic it it develops you you'll start to see um different features and texture in the OVA and stuff like that and the number of OVA in there um is just a lot for spotted Sal matter but um I I am remiss it could be spotted or or whes at this point so I digress let's consider that it is a certified Vernal pool or certifiable Vernal pool and that we'll treat it as such so they require forested over wintering habitat which is what is important to these species as we're looking at Lots four and five we're on the peral margins of what is forested habitat where we're proposing our limits of development anything beyond that is not suitable over renting habitat for them this is the area that I've mapped is degraded there's no trees or forested cover beyond the limit of tree line that's out there now as proposed we looked at taking um quantitatively it was between five to 10 trees which we talked about in the field but there were I think five isolated trees and then closer to the road there was one um bump out where there was a cluster of maybe five or six additional trees um now again we can either mitigate for that by planting additional trees elsewhere around the perimeter of degraded areas we're already putting 20 trees in um I'm just throwing numbers out there for perceived take of of previous trees but we could increase it and we can do wildlife habitat enhancement to that um as it pertains to uh habitat for turtles it is suitable habitat for blandings not so much wood Turtles Blanding Turtles are known to to use in overwinter so when they're hibernating it it could be that there's Blanding turtles overwintering in habitat like that that forested wetland in general not just the the the Vernal pool itself is suitable over wintering habitat for for landing Turtles wood turtles will hibernate underneath the actual stream Corridor itself underneath as I implied where you see trees falling or undercut Banks is where wood wood turtles will use so even if the wood if you if the planing Turtles are utilizing those Vernal pool spots the turtle nesting habitat still is is where it is and that there's there's no why would they be migrating North into degraded habitat when there's no suitable nesting habitat there they would be nesting in the suitable habitat that we're aiming to protect so the question is what lies within your buffer zone in the area of of proposed alteration um if we consider yeah it is important wildlife habitat that's the wildlife habitat um um regulations actually state that they consider verle habitat and rare and endangered species habitat triggers the important wildlife habitat which is why I produced and submitted a wildlife habitat evaluation which is mandated for that that came in with the turtle um um uh evaluation that I had done for natural heritage so it was um more of an appendix B detailed wildlife habitat evaluation but I I don't know how we would treat this any different if we did consider that this was Vernal pool and consider that planting CS may be overwintering there're we're not altering it we're not disturbing it we're on the peripheral margins of forested the habitat and what really is at consideration is take of five to 10 trees on that margin yeah and and that that just underscores why we originally started asking about trees that may have been removed in the past which would have reduced that forested overwintering ground even if it was 10 years ago yeah yeah yeah but I mean my my my opinion again looking at the existing conditions um both on the site and off the site is is that the Upland habitat for these Vernal Critters has really been squeezed over the years that uh in my opinion it's important to protect as much of it that remains as possible but but I I think I think that it's reasonable to try and get quantify you know the proposed impact you know uh to some extent so that's why again I I I'm recommending that the Vernal pool boundary in other words the mean annual high water mark uh be uh delineated and mapped sure it is yeah if you will you go back to the the plan for a moment if you don't mind I sorry I'll just broadcast one of the where the buffer zones lie now as they're broadcast on our plan is projected from bvw but the Vernal pool is going to be another I don't know 50 60 F feet internal to this and I'd expect the boundaries to be down here no we we we we found the egg masses you see you see the pointer yeah we found the egg masses up here it was in it was in standing water obviously y right so yeah I'll delate the bottom of standing water the the point I'm trying to make is that this is more conservative of boundary and that that 100t from the Vernal pool is going to be shorter than than this distance here well we we mean we need to see it mapped and then we might want to get it peer reviewed to come up with a a final determination of that um and and not only that it has it has to be mapped offsite as well because again the commission is allowed to take take into account cumulative impacts I understand that but again even if the Vernal pool is there let's say we go UND delineate it it's off property we need to get property own authorization there's no reason that with property authorization that we can't add that to our plan and pick up Med o water but again in terms of these cumulative impacts and and the need for peer review what what there's always the peer review the peer review what what is the peer review necessary for well um if if let's let's just say for the sake of discussion because I I think sure one of the things we're aiming for is what is what what is the percent reduction um in uh good Upland habitat for these veral pool Critters that's presented by this development um you know you you may come up I think that's what I'd like to ask for yeah you may come up with a figure but you know that's that's going to depend on uh existing conditions uh again which I think need to be peer reviewed again because because seeing I'm seeing different tree lines on on different versions of the plans so so that has to be resolved as well are we I mean would it help if we went and surveyed 10 trees and located them on the plans the ones that are proposed for being taken I think that's that's what's necessary well but it's it's it's it's it's more than that I mean we we need we need it as I said there's there's Leaf litter out there that is good habitat for you know salamanders and wood frogs so so that's we need to determine that extent we did yeah I mean we've done that in the habitat evaluation my concern let just just just for the my my my credentials that I I have a master's degree in ecology a Bas degree in Wildlife and Fisheries conservation 23 years of qualifying experience I'm a certified wildlife biologist certified professional Wetland scientist certified ecological restoration practitioner certified erosion sediment stormm water practitioner I'm the president of the New England chapter of the wildlife Society I am on the advisory Council of the wildlife committee for The Association of Massachusetts Wetland scientist and and I think I do high quality work I've I've I've never had conservation commissions or Regulatory Agencies and I'm happy to have this stuff reviewed but I I feel like every time there's a statement here it's automatically this has to be peer-reviewed this has to be peer-reviewed even not knowing or having clear defined scope of of what the peer review is what it will entail and what it is you you hope to get out of these so I'm just expressing my frustrations that every time we present something it's automatically another another peer review and I'm trying to we hear that but we are also this is our our prerogative to it is it is yeah but I'm trying to understand what I'm not sure where I want to go yet but um yeah and and if I could just add I I hear you and it's not about trusting you sure but what what I've learned in the year and a half on this commission right is we're all volunteers yeah and you all are part of a paid project team that has lots of time to look at the details so for us having that peerreview advisor is very helpful because we're not experts like you are sure so that's really why I think you hear the peer review is it it's these things are complicated as you well know and it's hard for a bunch of volunteers to figure this stuff out y i get it no I understand it's at at your I I feel like I feel like it's very it's very just you know this this process there's been several understood several scopes of peer review without you know nebulous understood okay so um let me ask if Chris if you have anything else or anybody else on the Comm committee commission wants to ask any more questions on this I mean I think that um this is you know an important issue and I think we want to make sure that we have a clear delineation of the veral pool and where it is and I think we really want to understand I think I want to understand as a commissioner kind of you know where that that buffer zone is and we got to balance uh you know the various interests wildlife habitat interest that we have here but I know I want to understand it a lot better than I do now so um y you know that's where I'm at I'm I'm sure we've got some public input tonight too coming in but uh and there and I don't know if you want to take the time but there are a couple of other issues you know the the the Board of Health uh contamination Stu studies if I have my sites correct we had this um stormw water people we had a letter yeah we had a letter yeah so there's some other things I don't if you want do it let me ask on the veral pool if anyone else if Mark or Bill or John you want to say anything more no D David brought up a lot of good questions a lot of good that's fine so so is it clear what we're asking for clear as much we we we oh so so my my understanding is you're looking for a delineation of the Vernal pool that is off site we cannot guarantee that we can do that understood so understood in if we cannot secure permission to go offsite and delineate this Vernal pool what would you like done because that is the more likely scenario um I'll have to think about that so I my suggestion would be utilize the boundary of the wetlands that we have which is more conservative than the limits of what the Vernal pool is going to be well but but but is the boundary of the BBW um was that deline further than what's shown on the plant here we can look at Gis for the back side of it inara uh okay you've already opined that the hab there is no habitat because of the lawn on the adjacent lot so we're already looking not on that southern side we're going to be looking towards the east um in the area where lotv used to be but we need that documented on a plan um you know ideally it would be done through um an actual field delineation um you know um I'm C certainly happy to help out uh in any way I can with regard to that um but I would I would also ask that you go to the bylaw look go to the bylaw and and and look at what that definition of the boundary of a Vernal pool is um and and maybe and maybe it will end up being um you know essentially the the boundary of the BBW uh at least at least in this area I don't I don't know um but as I say this is this is this is I mean we we we found the um uh the the egg egg masses very close my recollection was the was that the the Wetland flags were almost right there okay you know so so and then then we also need we need to we need to or you need to show the existing tree line correct now the question on the tree line is is there um an interest in count of what we're looking to clear to actually qualify that 5 to 10 ballpark tree uh number that's going to be removed as a part of lot four and five or is it strictly Tree Line like I want to get as granular as the commission would like on this so we don't have to revisit uh well I so you're suggesting going out and mapping uh surveying and mapping actual trees uh just the ones to be impacted it would be a limited tree inventory of of trees to be taken by by species inate I think that'd be reasonable yeah yeah okay I'd like to know but but but but I but I don't know if that's necessarily equivalent to the boundary of the Upland Vernal pool habitat something take a Clos look at that that might have to be peer reviewed understood so we have the Vernal pool limits and we have the tree line and and again the tree line around the entire perimeter if if you can get permission to do that yep I uh would also ask Brian if you could let our one of our uh Town members join the discussion right now behind you uh because we're still talking Vernal pool and I know Joel wants to say something about vernal pool yeah Joel Luna ten Carter Drive I'm here as a as a resident not as an associate member of the planning board because of the interest in veral pools as you well know and that uh this is not the only site by the way that I've been that only pool potential pool area or pool area that I've been looking at this spring so it's not like I'm singling this application out uh but it was obviously a matter of interest to us and uh so I've been there on multiple occasions I want to add that that David's right that uh one of the Wetland markers I don't know which one but I do know one of the Wetland markers is very close to the water so we're not talking about 40 50 ft away from the Wetland line we're talking very close to the Wetland line I agree with David also that there's not it's not a very thick uplend area looking up that way and if you remember from the site walk or if you don't I would highly recommend you go back and look it's not that dense so I think any amount that you have there is Def definitely needed I think also uh this commission has shown an interest in protecting the 100 foot buffer of vernal pools which you just did on 110 um which we had a big discussion about and in this case have two houses that are within that 100 foot uh there we were we were debating over Paving a certain area where there's going to be no structure at all now you're talking about two structures within 100 foot of this thing uh I just want to add that that David mentioned that I heard woodf frogs what I have are recordings of woodf frogs I sent that recording to David one of the recordings uh I have uh heard them on two different occasions uh we think think that that uh it's still probably a little bit early for the wood frog egg masses at least we haven't seen them uh and then the only other thing I was going to add is that the uh residents whose properties this is on are here tonight and they can certainly already say whether they would give permission or not so that shouldn't be a barrier um certainly uh I have gotten their permission David has their permission so uh they can speak to that but those people here tonight I just want to say again that that we that the water appears to be fairly close and that there does definitely need appear to be a need for that Upland habitat for this P thank you thank you Joel um we have another may I are you at the public speaking Point yeah sure we why don't we shift to that for the moment yeah and focus it in the veral pool okay I do have questions on the earlier things that have been discussed if that's okay do you want me just to let you move onay with the veral pool for the moment okay um um okay on the Vernal pool um I I I just wanted to clarify that most of the vernal pools that have been certified in the town have been certified by Joel and me um and that I agree with him as far as the concern of that 100 foot buffer zone should be seen as a minimum area that those species need as far as both wood frogs and as SP spotted salamanders and the I was reading to Joel earlier today the description of spotted salamander eggs and he said yes what he saw fits with what I was reading on that description um but if there's any question the bylaws does have the provision or the regulations I'm sorry that the commission can require that any determination be postponed until the appropriate time period consistent with getting evidence so if you're needing to see the actual or whatever or to have it so you you can have this hearing process you can say that it needs to go on um and also another point is that there's a higher number of egg masses than there would be of larva so when you have just three egg masses if I mean just finding one larvae in that area is going to be enough to make it be certified um and then um the another question that hasn't come up that is related to the ver pools that also goes back to the storm water is um if you look at the plans for the sub catches he in the existing conditions he proposes a two subcat areas um 1 s and 2s and going to respectively um discharging to 1 R and 2 R um but then in the um proposed conditions he's going to be changing that what goes to 1s which is where the vernal pools are located will get appear to get significantly less water so um the Vernal pool is a resource area under the bylaw you're supposed to be looking at are there alterations to Resource areas if you are changing the hydrology you are reducing water that's going to there I think that that would raise a real question of are you altering the Vernal pool habitat area the Vernal pool itself based on the storm water and that storm water needs to be looked at in terms of you can't be changing the hydrology for areas where you have vernal pools and the Vernal pool does not have to be certified yet by Heritage to count under the bylaw that's all called out so I'll just leave it at that for now and I'll have more in a bit okay thank you and we have one more Paul wood 16th Helder Street I'm just off site there where the green line is when they originally did that they came in never asked permission I know of but they're welcome to come on the property for my part I can't speak for Justin that's up to him but you know part of it's both of our lands but they went and you know and me did it then so I so I'm hearing you say it's it's okay for them on 16 Hill Street yeah property thank you very much appreciate it okay um I got a question yeah and I'm going to throw it out there the catch Basin at Plum Street has an outfall into this veral pool is that what they're talking about what's created this veral pool it could be natural could be just a natural would the catch Basin that has an outfall into this veral pool have something to do with all this uh maybe well it could but there's the presence of the egg masses makes that not matter I guess catch Basin outfall water create veral pool it's created by the town of CHS yeah so what I'm not I'm not following your point I don't I don't know it wasn't a catch patient JN it could be sheeting doing the same thing I don't I don't know what you but but I don't think it matters the rags talk about a Vernal pool as evidenced by egg masses not how the pool is I was addressing question about the catch Bas it could be either fed either way by just sheeting or by a or gra sheating off right I understand that so I I don't I don't I think the catch Basin has a lot to do with it we all looked at the catch Bas yeah okay and it my question it doesn't change if that's a Vernal pool or not am I am I missing anything that's correct yeah I mean it it doesn't change if it's a Vernal pool M you look like you want to mention that Paul wood 16 Street the cast bation is useless most the water misses that cast bation and comes into my yard and then if you look there's there's uh cuts into the ro road and that's where it all flows down you know cuz they there's no curving there it just passed by that I wish it catch I wish it caught everything we all see that around town in many places yeah but but the important thing that I think I've learned L this question of the hydrology of the whole site not impacting the veral pool so the catch Basin would be important to understand the hydrology but so with the sheet flow and everything else well and Ruth is absolutely correct that if a hydrology uh is being changed by the development um you know the impervious surface or storm water management you know that's that's something that the commission can should look at as well so I think we have a lot to think about here more to more to dig in um what are the actions that we're looking at right now well I think I think right right now to map the Vernal pool uh itself and and the existing tree line um I can I can um look in a little bit more about uh potential impacts to the hydrology the Vernal pool uh again I think I think that's definitely a peer review job if if the commission wants to do that um so something I'll think about okay I think that's where we're at then anything else on Vernal pool discussion okay um what else is on our list here um I think that was all Carl I make a motion that we continue the hearing until our meeting on April 9th actually hold on I know that Ruth said a couple more things sorry Ruth previous uh previous topics that's right sorry Circle back which topic are we on um I will see okay first as far as all the turtle discussion the vegetation removal um I just wanted to add on to that this is something I had earlier noticed and sent to Heritage because I was concerned when you look at the Town GIS the aerial photos there you can see a significant change from 20 2004 up through the most recent one and the reason I'm picking 2004 is by 2004 we documented radio Turtles on this site wood Turtles and so those there shouldn't have been changes being made in that time because anything should have been okay by Heritage um as far as what type of vegetation to be returning to the area um I would encourage also in addition to considering trees um shrubs and things like that because yeah we found a lot of turtles and shrubs and um like Silky Dogwood I don't know if the soils are wet enough for that um they like low Bush blueberry things like that to just to give a range of things and the blueberry as far as giving something foodwise for them as well um as far as the uh rail fence between the site and uh the other area I would ask that as was done on 93 brick hiln as was has been proposed before with 243 River Neck that you instead would have a fence that's a real barrier to Turtle especially if you have a successful nesting area we demonstrated when we were doing our tracking that when hatchlings emerge from a nest they are drawn if they come out at night they are drawn to light and so that is why Heritage in that initial time required that fence with the turtle Gates it was to and the lights had to be directed away from the h it going toward the habitat was so that it wouldn't be drawing the hatchlings into that area and so it was a chain link fence because people are disturbances as far as the turtles go they're not wanting to hang out with them um but then the gate so if a turtle ends up on the wrong side of the fence they have it's a one-way passage to get back in there so I would like ask the commission to consider that since you do also have rare species under your perview as as well um and so that's why if you were to look at trees I think you do need to go back to 2004 at least and the town GIS does show that that you can see that yeah there's been a significant change and where you're talking that you're not really super dense any change is going to have an impact um and then I'm trying to see here um on the storm water I'll just I I did include several points in the letter I sent I'll just include a few here so I was glad to hear that they're having to or being told to put the actual test pits in the area of their infiltration um the another point on their infiltration is the rate that they're using is incorrect at least based on the material they provided they are using a rate for sand um when the soils according to their map are lomy sand and so they need to reduce their rate to 2.41 in per hour instead of what they were using and they also need to ensure that their system is sized such that it takes at least 6 hours to drain not the one and a half that they were showing um and then the um on the um there was some confusion confusing things on their onm they had a whole section on elicit discharge and I wasn't quite sure why you're having residents that their vehicles are being checked I didn't see where there's a dumpster on the plan even though it talks about all this dumpster care and um um was it spill spill kits and like so I'm assuming something got cut and paste incorrectly I don't know if they take a look at that but the frequency that they were reporting for um the catch Basin and the um their proprietary separator they were saying in that that it could be done twice a year um whereas in the um storm water handbook it should be um four times a year I think in the proprietary separator I thought it I wrote down I don't remember off hand I think it was monthly they were saying in the handbook but they're stressing that um if the separator isn't checked often enough it can actually introduce pollutants because they're not staying separated out and that it's critical then for the um the infiltration area that it's adequately pre-treated and I didn't find anything as far as um time of construction care for the area of infiltration that you're not compacting it and I don't know if the same applies for the septic areas as well but I I didn't notice anything in the submitt addressing that and I didn't finish going through but that's what I have so Ruth if I'm not mistaken you've submitted a letter yes I sent a letter just before coming yeah right I I haven't read it but I know that you sent it so I will ask um David if you can share it with Brian and David um so they and that addresses like the Vernal pool issues and I just ask quickly Brian if you have any clarifying questions not responses but just clarifying questions to what she said Okay okay then thank you a question of the uh percolation test on on the septic systems what was it what was the uh they were using soul for the infiltration if if you look in volume three of the storm water you they were using a Rolls rate and so a Rolls rate for Pure sand is I think I forget it's at 8 um 27 and so that's the rate they were using but the from the soil map that they were showing it's a lomy sand not a pure sand and so you need to use a lower rate and that would for aomy sand that corresponds to 2.41 so it's a much slower rate that they need to be using for their calculations for when they were sizing their system so the soils that are under the system they're going to leech too quickly is that what you're no I'm saying that he was used the number needs to be corrected calculation might be wrong I got to double check and then I just as far as the I mentioned the septic as far as should those all those areas get protected from compaction during construction there was nothing indicating that okay thank you thank you okay now uh I think Chris to continue to our next meeting of April 9th please okay uh let me just double check make sure are there any other public uh anybody else in the public that wants to say anything okay motion to move to April 9th continue to move the hearing to April 9th second second motion from Chris second from Mark all in favor I I oose None it passes thank you appreciate thanks very much thanks everybody thanks uh for all the residents that came out tonight appreciate the interest in uh your inputs very much okay let's um rock and roll here um we've got uh 270 Bill r Road and um I'm you sure they've asked a request for continuance April so April 9th Okay so we move to April 9th by Chris to move that one till April 9th second by second Peter pet all in favor I okay that one's moved to April 9th we have a uh noi continued from October from the town of chelsford at 48 Central Square this is the brickwalk and the applicant has a requested a continuance until April 23rd so I'll take a 23rd motion on that from Chris second from um Peter Peter any any discussion by the way uh not for this can I just have something quick yeah we there s there was a meeting a couple of us went with the DPW Engineers to talk about the brook walk details aren't too important but you know they're trying to move that thing on forward things are happening it's just they're not ready to come back okay good so motion to uh from Chris second from Peter all in favor all all so that one's moved out to the 23rd last one on our regulatory list is 1-104 Turnpike Road for town of chelsford this is from continued from a year ago years ago well this says 3123 that's one year oh but it was opened well before that so anyway um motion to continue that to the second meeting in May whatever that is I move that we continue to our second meeting in May motion from chis second from Peter all in favor no problem with that one B you got that thank you get the chuckle just right you know capture the chuckle okay continual business um all right so update on 35 brick kill and David you told me that there's no update um I would like to um give this some thought and figure out what we want to do on this because this has gone too long in my opinion it's it's we've been very very very generous and I'm not saying right now but I think maybe at the next meeting we can have a plan some options some options it might be good to Loop the Town Council in with you know option yeah I think I think why don't we ask that right off the bat that you Loop in Town Council to make some recommendations on what we can do the stumbling block still the same yeah yeah yeah it's just um including lack of response but um responsive yeah yeah it's just uh we we we we try to be generous and helpful but um we're we're we need to we need to do something here so thank you okay so David has that action finally update on um Land Management um we have the Warren pole reservation the CR um David and I are going to meet with um the land trust on um I think Thursday afternoon um hopefully we'll come to a final conclusion on that I think we're I think we're just wordsmithing if I'm not mistaken so I think we'll be good there um we'll share that with you hopefully at the next meeting and uh get the approval on moving forward on that the update on the coolest property I'll give that update because John wasn't at the meeting um it wasn't meeting it was uh last week I I jumped in for our friend John I did not participate as a member I was there as a uh as a concerned citizen I guess but um essentially there still um there's clearly a very strong um Town um vocal um support of the new house uh site on the property um that's very clear that um there was next to no um reservation with that but there was also um an interest in trying to find um a way to get um Weston to have maybe the ability to have some of their work on that same property I think it's going to be difficult on that side of the property uh but there was um with one objection on the committee there was U everyone else was Voting in favor of having the small six acre parcel hay by the I assume it would be by the parley um I was a little confused about why why the Newfield um the the Wildlife Refuge would have to be up for quote of course there's I can't imagine there's any Wildlife Refuge else that would that would quote on it but I don't think we had to quote on the parley on parley so I don't quite understand but I'm not in the committee so but that's roughly how it's going um they're making progress they're lot of in lot of people there uh very interested a lot of interested parties I was surprised at um I didn't know that there were interest from the Boy Scouts to have the ability to have events on the site um with upwards of of 500 people which I don't I that's like there's enough room there for parking for 500 people but I don't know I I don't quite understand how that would work I I was a little surprised at that one and also by the cultural commission I think it's called that wanted to have um the ability to do like Outdoor Theater and outdoor concerts there also with a lot of public interest in this property so you know there's a lot to lot to look at there it um I I I think there's still a few more meetings to go but um I'm so glad you're on the committee John so that's where we stand um anything else in your agents report uh just yes but but but on cool I think the house has been demoed the house is gone uh it was done yesterday and maybe finished up today but um it did not take long um they were efficient uh I talked to Christine about it and she said said it was quite something to watch uh the big piece of equipment make a minc meat of that of that house in about an hour it was gone in about an hour and it was really something so and was there enough debris to fill in the entire Vernal pool or did they have to bring some stuff I thought they did a good job protecting it yeah I I think they did I think they did hopefully we we we had a good compromise there um I I I'm hoping that that um the critters in there although I um there's still she she was pretty good about saying you about the some of the more work and maybe we need to slow it down especially if we get into you know where they start you know migrating and moving around so we need to keep an eye on that so so the wetlands on that parcel have been delineated the wetlands on the six AC six and a half acre parcel have been and she was going to be doing the wetlands On the Hunt Road parcel as wellc all under the original uh uh proposal um although although Mike risbeck who's filed an RDA to plant pumpkins and other field crops on that parcel told me that he was is just there yesterday and didn't see any Flags so okay should be doing it shortly Mike Mike's becoming a turtle Enthusiast as well yes so there's no greater fan of turtles at this point he's suddenly a man could be a future commissioner you know he's got religion he's got he's busy with the planning board so so that that hearing will be on April 9th so okay we'll just see what he's willing to do all right so um any anything else for agents report yes um so I um I got a call from an attorney representing the owner of 79 ledge Road who who was alleging that there had been some big pieces of rock um that the the the Earth product removal companies up there um have uh have put in the wetlands and and and he said that wow that the company's attorney was is alleging to him the homeowners attorney the D instructed them to do that D yeah which sounded very very strange to me so uh I went up I went up uh today to take a look um uh he had sent me a photo but I I I still couldn't see I I did I I did see what looked like these big you know uh uh rectangular shaped blocks but I didn't see any in Wetlands I did I did see however though that um that that ledge road is is is badly uh well in some areas badly eroding and silting up some Wetlands up there so I think that that's something that the commission should uh have addressed how far down is 79 it's it's it's the last house up if you're going up ledge it's the last last house on the right or the left before you before you go the under the highway yes yes oh wow okay okay so I couldn't I I I I I just couldn't see what what he was alleging um but I I I did I am waiting for a call back um but but but as I say I I I do think that there is in any case um a serious concern with you know um siltation erosion and siltation of wetlands you know up as you go up closer toward where Three cross yeah that's after where the fork is Right a lot of water comes down side y from all the way up to top all the way down yep so big ruts there y so um I I now now it's actually good now that I have the company the name of the company's attorney I'll give him a call if that's so that is um it turns into Westward before it gets to the highway and then it's Westward on the other side of of the highway on the other side of the highway yeah that that property is the last house in chelsford on that road and it becomes West right even before it crosses the highway about 50 ft 50 m before it crosses route three so all that water is Westford water well I'm and now I'm wondering if the wetlands are in Westford see if I I'll I'll see if I can could be and then and then if it turns out they in Westward I'll let the Westford agent know yeah talk to the Westford agent have any problem finding rip wrap up there put on the edge of the road no okay that's that's good to know that thank you d David for that update or that information then one other thing is uh I got a call from Susan Canton who's on the chord gardening committee or she G Club there's multiple garden clubs but okay okay so they they have um or I guess maybe the town has bought uh a memorial Elm that uh she didn't know whether it was a Jefferson Elm or a Valley Forge Elm but whatever it is it's sounds like it is resistant to the the elm uh blight um and she was asking for suggestions as to where to plant it um now one one thing one consideration has to that has to be made has to be reasonably close to a water source um because it needs to be watered I it sounds like maybe there there might be a good place to waren pole maybe maybe near the stream you know where where where you take the trail turns left and then crosses putam Brook maybe in that area right with the big the big ash tree that's dead in that neighborhood I mean that's that's open and it's and it's close to the source of water there for the brook yeah um but but if but if if commission members could think of maybe any other uh suggestions let me know how any idea how big the tree is is it uh I I didn't ask you I didn't think to ask okay all right but I'll do that okay so if again if you could have any any suggestions any any thoughts let me know um the other people to be asking would be the tree committee and see if they have ideas too the the tree committee's planted a bunch of Elms for the town or with the town rather the dog park and there must be one or two on the town common I forget what we put there okay all right yeah I'll give us some thought yeah okay can you look into that we have meeting minutes so consider ped right I'd like us to uh keep going here and finish up we have meeting minutes from um let's see we have January 9th um which I'm sure you've all read and and made changes and Corrections and all kinds of whatever but I think they look pretty good I there was actually one change that I had to um January [Applause] Vivian can you kindly tell us what little trap you put in these things to see if we actually read them so I can go to that page and impress you that I read it all I used to write Mary had a little lamb every so often nobody reads it I haven't done that in you um the the only well I'll ask David when he's found his okay no it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't on the 9th it was the 23 minutes so David I this this isn't a minutes thing but it's just a remind of the um St John's Church on middlex street that they were going to ultimately do an noi at some point for a long-term solution never heard anything from them have you the deadline was May 1st so a little time but I will I will uh get an update on that I'm just remembering um being out there with um was it Joe Haider Joe yes okay okay I'll take a motion reminder uh I'll take a motion I move to approve the minutes of J of January 9th 2024 motion from Chris second second from Peter all in favor I I minutes approved for January 9th thank you very much meeting minutes 24th let's take a quick look at that Peter uh John did uh David did you have a change on the 23rd 23rd um the request for determination pability page uh that would be page seven uh where a motion by Mr Mr Gan to to move to motion to approve the request for determination ofil for zero Lon Road -2 determination that should be a -2 and a -3 I'm sorry this was on P it's actually on page eight is that right um for zero Littleton Road second line of the motion you're saying that should be neg -3 -2 and3 oh both of those I thought I started that's why I only for one I'm like you can't have more than one negative you can actually we we were out at the um annual conference uh in uh last month out at Holy Cross and they covered that in detail that you can have multiple um choices you know I learned something new exactly you learned something new every day yeah all right then if we can make that change uh and move to approve the minutes with that change unless there's anything else I make a motion to approve it uh on January 23rd with the change that so it becomes a double it's a two3 determination uh I'll second the motion second from Chris all in favor I motion passes you're just a little SL I all right I will take a motion to close the AG the meeting sorry there was one other thing I thought was on the agenda this master plan thing did I miss 60 seconds I promise I didn't miss it 60 seconds not counting Logistics time not counting not counting the time to hand these out okay we're not going to talk about this but I'm going to email you guys uh I'm on the master plan implementation committee thank you Carl and I have to give a report on April 15th on what the commission is doing on our assignments thank you from the master plan so this little chart is most of our assignments written into the master plan and I need to come up with some sort of presentation to the master plan committee which I have not thought too much about so the takeaway here if you have if you want to talk about it give me a call and I'll present something at our next meeting which will be a week before I have to present it to the master plan and Carl you can help me figure out how we want to do it I've done this drill once before so yeah and and I will just say I think the challenge here is a lot of these are really big things and not clear to me that it's the conservation commission's role on some of them a lot of it's DPW a lot of it's yeah yeah so anyway if you want to weigh in give me a call thank you just just on the next meeting though just a heads up we've got in addition to these continues we got four new filings two notices intent four new filings well yeah so so I don't we don't have to vote on this thing I just show up at the meeting and speak on behalf of the commission so I you know I would like people's input it doesn't have to be at that at the meeting at the next hearing it could be privately if you care call me so let me just ask how's that going to work if I'm in Turks and C Co you better have a drink in your hand and be on the beach that's how it's with a zoom call you zoom in with a drink in your hand no I can't even bring my phone yeah looks like you're not going [Laughter] so I'm sorry I'm not going to be here this most important April's April's a busy month because obviously I was hoping we're going to have an osrp kickoff meeting this town meeting at the end of the month town meeting coming I was just going to suggest you know maybe we do three meetings if we had to but I'm like I'm going to be meeting out so but boy if it's a long if our next meeting is a long meeting okay well we'll just have to I feel real bad for you Buck up and and get it done f up yeah all right I'll take a motion to adjourn move to adjourn meeting adjourned all favor thank you tell Chumps T media say good night e e