##VIDEO ID:kPLLU4pDFeM## 26 2024 meeting of the finance committee to order tonight we'll be following the published and posted agenda will be recorded uh in uh live view via both zoom and transer Tel media and available for viewing and future uh use for announcements this evening we have uh a continuation of the creating a ch's future strategic planning with Community forums there will be three Community forums uh at different times and locations coming up in the near future on Tuesday October 8th at the chord Center for the Arts from 9 to 10:30 a.m. uh Wednesday October 9th at the cheler community center from 6:00 to 7:30 p.m. and then Thursday October 10th at the chelsford public library from 12: to 1:30 p.m. uh we ask everybody come and share the vision for the chelsford at one of these events uh participate and help make your voice known next turn our agenda this evening is an approval of minutes uh we have this evening September 19th 2024 minutes as everyone had a chance to review them yes yes all right do I have a vote uh a motion rather a motion to approve them second any discussion all those in favor I I six in favor moving right along we have a review and discussion of Warrant Article 2 uh Happy Tails pet cemetery uh petitioners article and with us this evening we have Mary Donovan our petitioner Mary come forward I have package for each one of you for what I am going to I'm sorry I had to hand write the first page because I no longer have internet to badk I got scammed you hand wrote each thank you each one oh my goodness thank you and I have 100 pictures but I didn't bring them thank you very much thank you thank [Music] you and thank you for being here this evening okay my name is Mary Donovan I live at Tanglewood Drive in chelsford but I wish to thank the finance committee for the invitation to speak on the need of a pet cemetery in town a pet cemetery run like the CH human Cemetery would be safe and be legal and safe from being sold like the one in tingor our pets are family and our children and should be traded like the human cemeteries a pet cemeter will not cost the town or taxpayer extra money pet own owners pay for the caskets the grve flots markers and their maintenance fee the the maintenance fee will go into an endowment account for the Perpetual care just like the Chumps at human cemeteries forever the size of our heart is what really matters taking care of family and our pets our children pet too also need a place to rest a pet cemetery is a place where you can visit to share memories with friends and family and be Safety and Security for eternity thank you Mary Donovan and if you do pass my pet CET for chord with approval I will be more than happy to volunteer as much time as I can and if you will notice in the package I have a copy of the citizens petition a copy of the dogs that are now buried and under two feet of weeds there's the price of buying a casket and a note and if you go to the next picture you will see my dogs six of them are buried and I cannot visit them because I will be arrested because the owner now owns the land but even though I own the plot here's a picture of one of my dog's Graves there's three of them I haven't been able to find them in two years I'm working on it the next one will show two of my dogs with their toys the next page will tell you there were over 4,000 pets licensed in charmford and that's $6,000 approximately more a year that maybe some of that money could go to help with the land and whatnot oops well I guess that does it and I thank you for listening to me thank you and if you need any more questions or if you have any now I will be more than happy to answer them sure does anybody have any questions so you're um I also have to tell you I have a law in process in the state house in the legislation but right now it's in a third committee study to to to protect pets in the state of Massachusetts there is no law to to protect Pets the the the cemeteries thank you for listening any questions um uh so yours just saying hey Town buy something or hey town if there's a a piece of land that isn't really great for anything else can you think of doing a pet cemetery on it I'm a little confused because land in chumford isn't very available um some right uh are you looking for something that uh last last meeting there was the pieces of land that were uh taken by foreclosure and they're unbuildable because whatever reason are you looking for the town to to be open to the concept of that being a pet cemetery or are you looking for particular are you looking for a particular piece of land are you looking for the town to actively look for piece of land or yes I would like them all right so that's the thing is you're petitioning to not only have a cemetery but to actively get a cemetery there is a couple pieces of land in town did you have anything be used yes so uh is that part of your um package like oh like this what about this what about this what about that well if I need to get Show you people I will end up coming back and doing that but I think with the help of Paul yeah if if if you might talk to what the what the vision is regarding uh available land and uh this particular petition as many of you may know Barry's been yes pursuing a pet cemetery for quite some time now you know the challenges and we and for example we most recently looked at the uh coolest farm property unfortunately um we have an opinion from Council that Community preservation funds are not un allowed use for Cemetery purposes so we could not use it there U or or even for the chelon cemetery so that ruled that out um the other challenge that we have is she's looking for five acres of land to do this because you need the area for the cemetery and then parking and access and so forth um the challenge with some of these lots that you mentioned earlier is most of those foreclosed Lots the reason they're foreclosed is because there's there's Wetlands uh and therefore not suitable certainly for a cemetery the other challenge is most of the town's land that it owns are restricted in their use meaning they're either conservation land which would not qualify which most of the town's General government land is or in the other cases it's School purposes or Cemetery purposes and so forth the only piece of sort of unencumbered town land of any significance that the town has and has had has been uh Richardson Road the former DPW Yard the challenge there and the problem there is that's as we we know is in close proximity to the W the the wellfield for the North chelon Water District so I think one of the reasons we don't you know we we don't have something in this article or brought before you or the town at this time is we just haven't been able to identify a piece that the town has in its current possession if the if this article were to pass a town meeting then the then I think the message to the select board and to me is well then you go out and pursue that whether it's in the form of an RFP other means uh and then come back to the town you know you know like we would any other land purchase say this is the piece of land this is what it would cost and therefore we'd seek your you know the purchase they be contingent upon to meeting approval so five so five acres is like the kind of minimum concept yeah that's that's that's how Mary's explaining you're looking for about five acres of land no all we need is one acre one AC one acre in T and there's thousand pets human husband and wife's ashes buried up there and there plenty of room with a land and down on Pine Hill okay grave Cemetery in the way back they're headed towards 129 why can't we add it to the pet the human Cemetery in I believe but the issue is this the Town Cemetery elected Cemetery commission does not allow this on their property that's out of my control and jurisdiction so what about the land that Mary what about the land that your pets are buried in who owns that land and have you approached them God forgive me for saying that that I all get in trouble and I don't care a crooked construction guy bought it okay so so the the land built a two family house on part of it okay so there's no protection currently for or pet cemeteries unlike unlike a human Cemetery with a pet cemetery it's not protected from being developed into something else so it's private property and pets are considered still property um there's recent case law that that states that okay uh and because of that there because there's no protection if someone were to buy a piece of property that had a pet cemetery on it barring any conflict of any contract um they could do what they're currently doing in Tings Boro and so what part of what Mary has discussed if she has a she's worked with state legislators to work on a be involved in a law that would provide protections that are similar to uh similar to protections for a human Cemetery I see um that doesn't exist currently and so that's why there's the the current Cemetery in Tings Boro is is the way that it is um so this would be more of a resolution uh that uh should there be available space the town should uh EXP explore if it were favorably voted for uh a piece owning a piece of property where this could be included and then that would again as Paul noted require another vote um to uh provide an RFP to provide funds for that and then a vote to establish the how it's being handled treated maintained uh you'd have to establish as Mary mentioned an endowment to hold the funds much like you have with the with uh with our cemeteries where the money's held and and the maintenance is is covered partially by the funds that are inet imperity held uh in order to maintain um the location so this is at this stage more of a resolution because there is no identified current property that this could be held on uh and we're and she's not asking in this article to purchase a piece of property there's no funding available currently for that this is kind of the first step to say this is I believe and correct me if I'm wrong this is what you'd like to see happen um you like the town meaning to endorse this happening and to the extent that it can be pursued you'd like it to be pursued you know there's people in this town that I've been networking with and they didn't realize it's illegal to bury your dog or your cat or animal in your backyard and if you sell your house your new owner of your home who buys a house because today day they got to have a swimming pool or patios and they dig up and they dig up your animal they can sue you for the money they pay for the house and you lose the money and the house they get to keep it there are so many laws people don't realize I have found out in the past two years wow I have six dogs up there and two cats I got one dog right now M he's 8 years old he could die in five minutes he may last six months he's not in pain he's just been diagnosed diagnosed with an enlarged heart oh dear I just spent $2,300 to find that out I will spend my money on my animals I love them so just to just to clarify no no no no that's okay now I appreciate it just to clarify Mary it's not illegal but you need to have uh approval from the local Board of Health in order to do it and within 48 hours and they have a restriction there are restrictions but it's it's not illegal it's regulated but do you know how many people never knew that I'm sure lots didn't know yes I didn't even know that either I would never have buried them in tank R which I thought was a legal pet C only find out maybe I ought to have one of my own backyard that's an idea thank you I'm sorry no no thank you thank you don't be sorry if you have any questions or you want to see pictures I will be glad to show them to you all right any other questions any questions actually what I do have one more question um at the State House who are you working with that's okay I'm GNA talk really really loud okay good um who are you talking to at the State House who are you working with representative ell Elliot oao Elizabeth Warren in Washington okay and yesterday I just discovered another one in ESS County who was fighting too I'm waiting for calls back from those people okay I just can't stop understood thank thank you okay next on our agenda is a review and discussion of Warrant article six which is the free casat relocation with us this evening is Paul razio the petitioner on this particular article again thank you for allowing me to present my reasoning for my article uh for those who don't know me my wife and I have been residents of chelsford for over 55 years we raised our four children here and the four kids all graduated through our proceeded through the chelwood school system public schools and I'm thankful I can say they're now all out of my house and my wife and I empty NES thank God D Gres during my work in career just to give you some background on whom I who I am I spent six years as a CPA working for an international auditing company 16 years as a corporate finance manager for a high-tech company in Lexington and 15 years my last career was 15 years as an international controller for Charles for Charles River Laboratory in inton uh as you can see Finance runs deep in my veins so again uh my father had me working when I was 12 13 years years old and to making out the payroll for his company in my and again as a personal basis one of my personal priorities is never to enter into into Bank debt or any debt if you have current F current funds available as you know my petition relates to the $1.8 million feasibility study that was passed at the May meeting regarding the new Parker middle school or the proposed PKA middle school after that may town meeting I was thinking about it and I investigated you know what type of surplus the town was going to generate for the year ending May uh June 30th and I found at that time it was expected about 2 million plus uh and that's when I started obtaining the signatures and getting the petition filed I think the petition filed at this at the town office was in I think late May late June or or early May early July the Surplus we have now as I said is $4.7 million I do agree with the plan use of 2.5 million of that for roads as we know our roads need a lot of help and also $200,000 for the sewer lives we don't want to be known as a town that has sewer problems uh and again however the other planned uses can be delayed in my opinion we don't need I mean it' be nice to spend 5 $600,000 for playground behind the police station near McCarthy and again putting St money into the stabilization fund that's not a priority at this time you know we already have 15 million in this in the stabilization fund so again the plan is to use 2 and A5 million for the RO five five or 600,000 for the uh recreational area near the police station and 600,000 into the stabilization fund and again those are all good ideas but they don't have priority over the roads and also this funding again we know that the town has indicated that we are going to be facing deficits in the future because expenditures are increasing at a higher rate than our revenue and again so why why are we adding so why are we adding we have siplus funds let's use it to pay this 1.8 million uh you know uh proposal for the for the park let's use that money for that and let's not throw the debt into the future when we know we have problems and again in addition to the you know the expected deficits in the future we have a 20 or $25 million EXP manager for two fire stations and an even larger one if the Parker School uh you know proposal goes through how much debt do we expect the town the town taxpayers to spend you know we now have surplus funds let's use it to pay off this expenditure and and let's go forward I in my opinion it would be irresponsible to add to our debt at this time don't borrow when free cash is available and again can someone here explain to me why with with us having surplus funds we spend it on some other less required items and we throw debt into the future when we know we have a problem can someone explain to me that or justify that is is that is that a request there is a rhetorical question or that's a question if you can answer I'm just saying I mean I would I we have the to manager in the audience we also have our finance director in the audience which I think both speak to the barring that was voted upon for this particular item and for the planned um spending coming up not sure so so I understand it correctly the question is is why would we borrow this $1.8 million um rather than paying it upfront and I think the answer to that is you want to tie the users to the facility to the to those who are going to pay the cost for the facility so for example if we're going to build the school that's going to last 30 years 50 years whatever The Debt Service is appropriate it's appropriate that those who utilize a facility pay for the cost of providing that facility during this time of usage that's that's what borrowing is about it's what you don't want to do is the opposite um which is basically saddle the future Community with costs that you didn't rightfully Fund in the past which we saw happen with the pension obligation with the town s of funded pensions on a pay youo basis and didn't recognize the true cost of providing it so if we are going to build a park of middle school and we don't know when or whether that will be passed we know we cannot vote on it before the summer of of 26 two years from now but we don't know at this point in time how big the school is going to be because we need State approval for that in terms of the grade configuration and so forth it's only fair that the cost of the feasibility study and if approved the cost for the school be born out and borrowed and paid for over a 30-year period by those who are going to use the facility and in fact there's been some legislative consideration to extend that to a 4 year period because of the cost of these school facilities so I think it's right and appropriate that the cost of the project including the feasibility be paid for by those who are going to benefit and utilize the facility so that's the best explanation I can have in terms of why would we why would we you know burden those in the future with debt well it's because those in the future are going to utilize the facility and benefit from the facility and therefore those future taxpayers who are going to have that facility should pay for it along the way as they utilize that that asset I appreciate Mr Cohen's opinion and I do respect his knowledge is intelligent and I you know the town of chelwood is successful and happy because we do have a good you know Town manager however in my opinion if I was the CFO running this organization and we had surplus funds I would use the surplus funds to pay the $1.8 million study that's my opinion that's his opinion you know again it's up to the town people to decide what they want to do that's my presentation any questions I'll be glad to answer any questions no I'm going to be honest and admit I don't understand I I don't understand what it saves us like in a dollar figure like if we do this we'll say $50,000 I I just don't understand well we committed to pay 1.8 million right okay do we want to pay it now when we have surplus funds or do we want to throw the debt to the Future when we know we have funding problems okay so different question is why not rather than following the same logic is why not we're going to vote on a fire station um why not apply some money towards that and reduce the amount that we have to borrow in that area well that's I mean this is now we have we have not committed to a fire station at this time again that's in the that's next year or whatever we're voting on it you're voting on it but again the same meaning we vote on your uh suggestion that's that's a that's an that's a possibility I'm just saying this 1.8 million is a debt on the on the town we have the surplus funds let's pay let's use the surplus funds you know to uh to pay for it that's my opinion as I said if I was a CFO that's what I would do okay thank you any other questions all right thank you okay thank you moving along on our agenda this evening we have uh opportunity for public comment before we go into our discussion and voting on recommendations so if there's any one would like to make public comment at this time they're welcome to do so um there's no one in the zoom room any no no one here all right moving right along we have a discussion of fall town meeting warrant articles and a vote of recommendations on the same uh we will be following through um chronologically uh see here starting with two two I believe is the first one the reports are are number one yeah so all right Cindy are you going to be our our set reader this yeah I printed it at home why did I not get that she came sent it Paul sent it like three weeks ago oh okay it's also a pend to minutes huh it's also pended to minutes so when they're posted okay all right I I didn't get it cuz my email wouldn't receive I sent it to three different emails of yours it didn't come to any of them yeah it's not receiving it but I did download from um the select board the package that's a PDF and I think it's the same okay yeah so I'll perfect excellent yes Jim I'll I'll uh you you'll you you sacrificial lamb I will I will uh starting with our article number two I make a motion to recommend approval of article two citizen petition pet cemetery submitted by Mary a Donovan as written do you a second I second it discussion um I just want to understand this is the we like this as an idea but it's not saying Oh we must have a cemetery it's sort of like if something comes up it we consider it as a use well it sounds like from what Paul was saying is that if if if it's in the affirmative if we vote in the town votes in the affirmative that they are obligated to take a harder look is that what you were saying Paul technically we're not obligated to do anything the legislative body but but practically and realistically what would happen is I would obviously meet with the select board but I would feel it incumbent upon me as the manager to undertake the time effort and expense of of issuing an RFP and pursuing the a suitable piece of land um because I I don't know of a a current piece of town land that could accommodate this request uh and then therefore after taking that effort then report back to the board select board then and then ultimately to town meeting in terms of the results of that effort uh whatever may come of it so because the presenter Mary um she really made it a wonderful emotional case but there wasn't a lot about oh we'll just let run it like the other Cemetery because cemeteries for people I obviously jump has at a cemetery for a very long time and people know exactly how to do it and how much it costs and how much to spend on it and things like that I have no idea whether what size a pet lot is uh how long would that pet lot be for in in in sorry for a very very long time perpetuity thank you uh and it's just it's just a case of it's not I I think I know that many people would love it I just don't know understand how the town could afford it like is it is it a what would you have to charge to make it an affordable thing a a I should put it this way what would the town have to charge people burying their pets to make it a net neutral item I don't fully know but what I do know is and and is and it kind of may have been overlooked we do fund our Cemetery operations we have a line in our budget for the chanc public Cemetery so I I don't want to mislead people that a cemetery is fully okay self-sufficient the the answer to your question in realistic terms is is what will the utilization be and therefore what would the cost be for maintenance because just like a cemetery part of your cost of the cemetery is your infrastructure but it's also the utilization right so therefore you know how big is this pet cemetery how many Lots what is the maintenance cost and and is there a you know a point of of of a you know an economic cost curve in terms of you know do do you really is it something you you'd actually have a greater deficit in the early years but fewer contributors as opposed to the later years when you'd have a more stable base of the endowment fund that would go towards some of the expenses so we just don't know and I don't have examples of other municipalities who've run this operation so there is as as far as you know there're not like I I just don't have any I know I I know that that the town of Littleton had a donated piece of land adjacent to their Cemetery but from what I know it's not heavily utilized and so therefore I can't break out or haven't been provided to me oh this is the cost for them to operate the pet cemetery so if this were to pass you'd really need an RFI and R an RFP but I don't know who could respond to that RFI I don't that's what I'm saying the the RFP would be for the land parcel and then the town would have to say do you want to expend this for the for the asset the the the issue of of demand for the service and the operating costs would be specul we would have to make some assumptions uh of you know particularly at The Upfront cost because if there is infrastructure so if you do acquire a piece of land it's like it's like anything what would it be to transform that piece of land in terms of a parking area Pathways and so you know laying out the an acquisition an acquisition yeah so that we just don't know but obviously I know there's got to be a a you know a fixed cost then the variable cost after you go forward just don't know yeah I I personally just it's not a not that it's a terrible idea it's just it's an idea that is that I would like to know the details like I don't know how you know uh my husband and I are are choosing to be cremated because there was no family lot left for us in our family pots so somebody's going to get us in a jar um so I don't know like I said I just don't know it it's it's not that it's a bad idea it just don't understand how much it would cost there too many questions open too many questions yeah so I think the only way to get to the answers to those open questions is to perhaps pass the resolution right to have the RFI go through you know kind of flipping the coin a little bit right um unless there unless there is another Community out there we can where we can Benchmark but it does doesn't sound like that's possible I mean it's not the only way there there is the current it's yes it's in it's in committee right now and Lord knows how long that will take and where where it will go from there but that's not out of committee yet so there's no law pertaining to it that would help support and preserve right uh that's not here yet additionally um there's not a lot of information out there regarding cost acquisition how it would be handled and maintained and I think that would be necessary my concern is is in passing is is it that we create uh this quote unquote mandate to go explore and expend on something we don't have a lot of information on yet and so there is a c is associated with this and I think it might be unfortunately premature I don't disagree that it's it's it's a it's a valid concern and an a valuable thing to pursue I'm just I'm concerned about the unknown and costs that we're going to incur immediately if we're going out and pursuing and and looking into this um through through this potential resolution so I I I'm not necessarily against it I just I think it's premature unfortunately so are you would you be more comfortable there was uh the the the stuff that she said was in committee that came out and there was some if there was some law on the books that had come out of committee that we had a direction as to how these were going to be treated I feel more comfortable if we had an idea about where an identified piece of land that might be uh needed for requisition what that cost might be I'd be I'd feel a little more comfortable if we had an idea of what the maintenance costs were from other other towns that maintain these or if if they're on towns maintaining these I think I'd feel more comfortable I'd just like other articles we've had in the past where there there are so many open-ended questions that could lead to unintended expenditures here I I'm just concerned that it's premature I actually agree with you I I kind of know I used to live in Kingsboro for a while as a as a youth and that pet cemetery was always kind of like somebody's backyard so it wasn't well regulated and it was known as a pet cemetery but it wasn't it doesn't her I'm sorry for her outcome but it doesn't actually surprise me yeah um so I I would if this came across I'm likely to abstain because I think there's just too many unknowns I don't want to say I'm against penies I'm just saying I don't know enough to make a decision a valid a valid I understand what you're saying yeah and uh I agree with everything that the chair said but I would also like to add uh to what Elaine said and you're right it is kind of an emotional issue we had an emotional presentation and that's perfectly fine considering the subject but remember we're a finance committee and we're supposed to base our decisions based on what we think the financial impact to the town will be in this particular case we have no idea and uh this could uh you could have a resolution at town meeting the town manager could do is RFI um the thing could fall flat no response there's no possible way that we're going to do this because we just don't have the land and that's fine but we don't know that that's going to happen you know this could be carried on and we could find ourselves in a position where now we're in a position to buy land and so on and so forth and of course the town meeting would be the final Arbiter of that but where the costs are just not known I think a responsible action by the fincom is to is to recommend against the article because that's what we do we're supposed to be concerned uh and base our votes on knowledge of uh what the expenditures are going to be and how they're going to impact the town so that's my attempt at De emotionalizing the argument sure I agree with that Sam I agree with everything so one of the things that I actually did my first job was work at a cemetery and there's this little thing called Perpetual care that was in front of some of the graves and this was a very old Cemetery it went back to pre-revolutionary war times and if you think about those and after mowing the grass right and think about the the maintenance of hundreds of years of that it's it's not that hard to figure out the business case right it's not that hard um and so this would be I think another commitment and I'm not even just thinking about the you know the emotional side I totally agree I got to count on a dog um but it's also the the time and the mind share that's also a drain right so this is yet another thing that we would have to manage um that I I think there's just so many other higher priorities um at this point any further discussion all right all those in favor sir all those against all hi hi I'm abstaining article three article three I make a motion to recommend approval of article three Cemetery Improvement and Development Fund submitted by the cemetery Commission uh to transfer $60,000 from the sale of Graves and lots account to the cemetery Improvement and Development Fund I second it discussion hearing none all those in favor I I six in favor oh five in favor one [Applause] Abend article four I make a motion to recommend approval of article 4 sewer construction stabilization fund submitted by the town manager to transfer 2 32,33 from free cash to the Sewer construction stabilization fund I second it discussion hearing none all those in favor I six in favor Article Five Oh there's no action on Article Five article six I make a motion to uh I make a motion to recommend approval of article 6 citizen petition transfer free cash to fund the Parker Middle School feasibility study submitted by Paul Regaro uh to transfer up to um $1.8 million from free cash to offset the expected Town share of the class approved about $900,000 after expected msba reimbursement of about 52% at the May 2024 town meeting for the feasibility study of the Parker Middle School second it discussion um the earlier point that this gentleman over here made um about we could use this money in other ways so it's why this particular I still don't quite understand and I probably have the least Financial background of all you sitting up here um is I don't understand why this why moving it for this one cause why aren't there other are are all the things that we are about to engage debt Ser debt on is this the like you you know when I was younger and my husband and I were younger and we had like different bills you know credit cards uh student loans car payments you know we pay the highest interest one off first so you know you try to do it that logically so I don't understand why this is the most logical way to use this free cash well my understanding if I can answer it for you maybe it helps me to vote okay my understanding is that the um the money that's been out has the decision to to spend the money on the study has already been pass and all is we're doing here is deciding rather than borrow to pay it we would pay it off in other words just pay it with free cash and therefore not have to borrow uh did I get that right if I didn't help me you know you got it right so um and you know and and to your point there could be other things or maybe it was my point there could have been other things that we could have taken the same approach to um but I'm just would rather we had looked at all of the free the other free cash because this is well anyways this is how we're doing it so um you mean that yeah whatk that comes later yeah I know that but you know we're TR we're we're trading one thing off against the other I just like to refresh my decision making looking at the other what's what's on the docket I agree daveid understanding what would what would have to come off in order to address this I I think that is important um because um yes it's 4.7 but there is there's a proposed allocation that would uh completely use all of the uh funds available including that $560,000 $482 $482 to the free uh to free cash stabilization fund if everything else were to pass 4 7 8 11 12 14 right um so yeah there are other uh onetime use onetime funds uh that are being uh used and allocated and that's typically how free cash should be spent onetime use onetime funds um they should not be used for General budget they should not be used for ongoing things um so while I I understand the petitioners position uh where this is a a study and looking not to incur additional debt at a what I would say is a very modest um uh barrowing amount due to our good financial position and in our bond rating um but I I agree with managers characterization of this being spread out over the course of a borrowing because it's being used for the greater scheme of the msba project in general uh that will be something that is going into the future uh I can't I can't say that I wouldn't have wouldn't have argued a little differently or maybe even been a little bit more um uh receptive to this uh if we knew what the free cash was when this vote was being made if this if for instance the Parker School um uh reimbursement feasibility study was was being voted on at this time town meeting rather than the previous town meeting maybe would have taken a little harder look at it and said well it is a one it is a one-time use it is a feasibility study um but it's been voted on it's been planned for I I I can't see retroactively saying well let's use free cash and yes there are other competing things they're always going to be competing other competing things my other concern is we have a very large Capital um budget uh and it doesn't address most of the things we need to address with our capital and so free cash we've tended to uh attribute to projects that we can't get to through Capital um and that's going to continue we also have uh concerns going on with the with the budgets the next couple years so I personally I I I'm not in support of this article yeah but I do respect very much having other people in in the town have you know question and and offer other ways of doing things I think to not have that is it would be a shame I think it's great and I thank you very much for doing it and thank you for saying that because I agree 100% and uh you know we never want people like the petitioner to uh refrain from doing that um I have a difficult time with this a little bit because uh as a real old Yankee I'm I'm I'm in sympathy with the petitioners position uh but on the other hand as a finance person my whole career I do understand the effect of paying off debt in cheaper dollars so we have an inflationary economy we're always going to have inflation and if we spread 18 uh $1.8 million over 30 years even with the interest rates uh by about the eighth or ninth year out we're going to be paying a loan off in dollars that are a worth a lot less than 1 8 million paid out immediately today so I think as a matter of prudent financial management I would much rather spread this uh payment out over the 30 years and take advantage if I mean it's kind of a grotesque way to talk about it but take advantage of the declining value of the dollar which is what happens when you pay back uh loans like this so that's how I see it so I'll be voting against the uh against the article I I would like to make a different comment and respect but one of the things comments was that you know we're going to build another playground or something and spend some money for that and then later on we're going to we're going to borrow money that's going to require we're going to vote on borrowing money to um uh you know basically be a tax override so I I mean there there's there's some serious thought that that has to go get to free cash every year that's right and this is a particular windfall to be quite honest from what I've little time I've had on this committee I don't remember has it ever been bigger than this before Paul it has yeah yeah it has yes okay then I'm then I'm corrected but it's the biggest in the last couple of years thank you yeah okay well I'm nevertheless I I am against this okay okay yeah and and I tend to agree I like I think the best diversity is thought experience and approach and coming in different ways and I love the the engagement um with this one it's it's just echoing similar sentiments I feel like um there is a lot of factor around the stabilization fund we have seen a five-year projection out and so there's incredible challenges coming ahead and so I'd rather not burn the cash only to find ourselves out of cash um in in other situations in the future um and I think that the money's already spoken for and there' be a hard trade-off decision that we'd have to make um for that 1.8 million but I I love the concept and I I hate debt I hate debt so I I totally get it but sometimes a necessary evil so I'd be voting against this one so I think the other items uh on the list the the playground you mentioned the playground um I you know I I think that's I think that's important I think that's important for our community uh and uh and you know for you know kids to play for the parents to take their kid have someplace to take their kids um documentation digitization hugely important I feel you know each year those documents continue to degrade uh the tree and invasive species plan uh I I think that's a great concept uh and try to get ahead of uh any um invasives that uh um you know we can perhaps down the line you know um funnel some money to to um you know help our our tree lines and our streets so so I I love the concept we already voted on it I too will be voting no and just for clarification it's not a playground it's it's courts it's Courts at a location that that had courts in the in the past it's for use of the general population of chord and it's been a on the docket for a few years now um I have to my my point wasn't that I was against no that no sure okay my my point is that given the fact that we we have in the town um we're probably not getting as much school money uh you know from the state as we should be getting okay um which means that coupled with um probably not having a large industrial base to share our tax rate with we fundamentally are running this town with two handicaps um as we move forward and I think Paul and his team are doing a marvelous job of doing it but my only point is that we're the debt that's coming at us it really concerns me it really does um uh and and we're going to do two and a half% every year going forward it's a given uh as far as I'm concerned so when we have any pay down of the debt any way we could or avoiding debt is something I'm going to consider sure it's a matter of what's more important and so because because the bottom line is I think that every project that comes before us is is going to be a good one it's just a matter how good they're going to be MH again I'd like to ask again not the not the person with a finance degree I have an English degree um stabilization fund that is money we throw into an account that helps to pay for emergency oh my God we didn't expect it and that's one use of it that's one use right what is the other uses of a stabilization fund well well Jim you want to so our stabilization fund is is is a and and noted regularly by by the audit committee uh auditors uh that it's used as a basis for our general position uh going forward just much like when you look at a balance sheet and you look at the reserves that someone has you want to say do they have the ability to weather a storm uh and so our stabilization fund our policy is to be between 5 and 10% of the general budget and we're right now if this is PR precedes we'll be about about 99 and a half% but with the noted uh concerns that are upcoming the noted uh potential having to use portions of the stabilization fund if we encounter issues and we think we may uh like other towns around us have where they've had to have override votes which have actually failed um for just handling the general budget and they've had to make hard decisions on cuts at at at many levels in their towns and so that stabilization fund is not just a I I've he heard it characterized as a rainy day fund it is really a uh a a source of funds that uh gains um interest is put there to help our bond rating and good reason why we have our AAA rating is because we have the we we have the Reserves that they have been reviewed hence hence the hence the title stabilization yeah okay that's what that means and uh that's very important and I would also note that the Massachusetts Association of town finance committee committees recommends that you you have a budget surplus every year in you're budgeting and they recommend between two and 5% of your annual budget so the generation of free cash is is if you don't do that on a regular basis that's looked at negatively by the bond rating agencies and so forth y so this funding of the general St regulation will not bring us over the 10 that is uh no it will not okay and keep in mind that every year the budget is increasing yes so yes we'll put money in and and it current will be will be 9.5 but then and over the p over the past 20 years we there have been instances where we have made withdrawals from the stabilization fund for various and sunry uh reasons which were deemed I think when I was at Tom meeting rip there was one for fire truck couple years back don't recall the specifics but I I can remember instances where it's been done so yes any further discussion mhm hearing none all those oh back to the article before we you want to make a motion in the affirmative other well the motion's already been made oh I'm sorry uh and seconded so we've been discussion so what happens when you get old so all those in favor of the of article six all those opposed I article s thank you for your respectful I appreciate it I disagree with it but that's the way that's okay and thank you very much appreciate appreciate it article seven I make a motion to recommend approval of article 7 roadway and sidewalk construction submitted by Town manager uh to transfer $2,500,000 from free cash to fund roadway and sidewalk construction including all incidental and related expens I second it discussion if you I wanted to second that all right from now on you got it he jumped before she she finished I mean we'll give you number eight no I I I I I think best way to keep good roads is just keep keeping them so that's you know delayed maintenance and you were an English major what's that when you know the rules like Paso when you know the rules you can break the rules we're only on article seven guys any further discussion no hearing none all those in favor I article 8 article8 I make a motion to recommend approval article 8 McCarthy Middle School exterior recreational area adjacent to the police station submitted by the town manager to transfer 9 $75,000 from free free cash to fund the construction of outdoor recreational playing surfaces and pedestrian access improvements at the McCarthy Middle School located at 230-250 North Road on the portion of the property located adjacent to the police station including any incidental and related [Music] expenses do I have a second second that was your that was your chance but no no cuz I want I have questions so I don't want to Second something I don't quite understand well second second for discussion sure second it for discussion discussion what's there now it was all torn up yeah okay there there was a tennis court there right and that kind of got frost tees or whatever in it and then from a safety point of view as explained to me um we tore it up okay this how am I doing am I doing you're doing you're doing well yeah it was it was there was an article a couple years back uh regarding what we would do with this whether would be used for and all the Rave at just coming out at that point was pickle ball right uh so a lot of discussion was around that or or putting in parking here uh parking was another thing because there's there's a there's a dir of parking for the uh athletic facilities behind it and and for events at the at the at the uh police station so that was discussed um that's when the infamous um p Paradise parking lot comment was made um and so it was defeated at town meeting uh and brought back to a committee it sat in committee people talked about it it went on and on this is what we have this is this this is a proposal now a few a couple years on okay so just I'm just trying to get it like I said understand it better I did ask no lights I remember that when I asked that question so no lights so it's a daytime only thing and being by the police station it won't have you know I see on like town talk and stuff like that is you know some of the conservation lands or getting you know teenagers spray painting things and stuff so that probably wouldn't happen there because you know glit next door I if it were to I that'd be pretty Brazen yeah I would never say never but I mean yeah so from from a point of view where um the police are next door U that think is like makes it a almost a better playground a better place to hang out and it's also not at night so there's nothing un towards really under the you know people think dark means you nobody sees you so kind I um my kids are all all grown um and I unfortunately unlike Mr rasio I do not have an empty nest yet sorry um anyway uh I'm for it yeah it also addresses with the with the field hockey uh the two field hockey surfaces the field hockey that that's been changed from over at the Charon charson High School uh was just finished and bring it back over here so that we have those being reintroduced at at in in a relatively similar location um and it's right between the police station the skat Park and then you have the the McCarthy uh field right behind it that's in McCarthy school is literally across the the the driveway there so um yeah I think it I think it looks good I think it's a good plan for it I think it addresses a lot of discussion over the last couple years of what we put there and and how how do we improve it right good any further discussion hearing none all those in favor I I all right article nine I make a motion to recommend approval of article 9 replacement of sewer Forest main pipe on Progress Avenue submitted by the town manager to transfer $125,000 from the sewer Enterprise fund retained earnings to replace the sewer Force main pipe on Progress Avenue including any incidental and related expenses I second it for you we'll take turns that's fine take turns discussion I'm in favor of it that's it that's it okay yeah I'm in favor of it I'm still there's something about it that in my gut thinks like do we have a bigger problem right and so I know that there's other things in in underway but when you start to see this I don't know if it's a canary in the cor line um but that's just something to I want to keep close eye on right because if if this is a situation it's like a now imagine that we've got a townwide situation that's a much much much bigger problem so yeah I certainly you know got to do the maintenance um I'm the minor question I have is during the repair will that like uh soil studies like is it is the soil super assd there why why there why failure there I don't know if that's just part of the natural process I'm I'm totally for it I'm just wondering how you know I I I I share his concern about is this uh the co you know Canary and the coal mine well I I think from the presentation the the DPW director stated that they're they're unsure they did take a soil sample from that location they're having that tested uh they believe this is maybe an they can't say for certain but without proceeding with this repair we and and we really won't know so for the repair just I same same concerns M any further discussion hearing none all those in favor I article 10 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 10 sewer infiltration and inflow submitted by the town manager to transfer $650,000 from the sewer Enterprise fund retained earnings to correct remedy repair prevent and PR prohibit any and all forms of infiltration or flow from groundwater or other sources of leaking into pipes facilities and other components of the sewer system including any incidental and related expenses it's return second it discussion he is discussion I think we're all pro I think Pro this yeah this is total Pro all right hearing none all those in favor article 11 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 11 documentation digitalization submitted by the town manager to transfer $300,000 from free cash to digitize and manage public records including any incidentals and related expenses I second this motion discussion I love this one no this is this is a this makes a lot of sense in so many different ways cuz my only question is are we done will this do it no no there's more to come how much more a lot more see Harrison you have to you stood up and didn't have to come up are we about are we about halfway done C can you quarter 10% I spoke too soon good evening members of the board Harris Mayo town uh departmental support coordinator for the town clerk's office um it's uncertain at this time the exact percentage we haven't received a full inventory um like the accounting files we know that's a good start we aren't sure exactly the the true volume of those files we expect to have a better picture of that moving forward um my guess is you know a quarter is probably a generous estimate okay thank you thank you one more question y um so the this this gets paid for how much time will this cover I mean and you talked about roughly a quarter of the records will be covered how long will it take for that money to that to be everything everything in that quarter to be U scanned in probably my guess would be by this time next fall this project would be completed the the proposed scope of work so this this quarter would come back and you'd say okay we did a quarter we need some more for the second quarter or yes and we we would have a better estimate of exactly how how much more there is um part of what this project has entailed is trying to get estimates from the other departments we don't have a full list of those estimates yet um but we we do hope to have a better idea so this quarters the the the not the trial run but the proof of concept this is how it's going to work this is how long it takes this is how much gets done in this time if you provide us these materials in a scanable format correct and and the the cost estimate that was provided is an average of several vendors that we have looked at depending on the vendor that we do move forward with um there may be an opportunity to do more than the estimated number of files with this amount of money and so where those efficiencies are possible you know we would look to get as much done with it as possible my suggestion would be when you come back next year and ask for more money you lay out how much over what period of time are we talking so that this committee knows what they're looking at not just in one year but for the total project that would be my suggestion absolutely thank you is there any benefit to having a multi-year contract that's a good question there may um but the the opportunity that several of the vendors that we looked at um are on the state contract for this so there's a a set price through that um State contract so the the benefits of that were done through the state's um contract so we we don't have to do a separate procurement to obtain those benefits there the comies yeah okay thank you I think it's an important project it has to be it has to be it has to be done absolutely yeah um eventually we'll get there m and it'll be done M everything will be ized and be easily accessible I I I can't wait for the day that all those records especially from uh the building department are easily accessible that's going to be fantastic be great exactly all right any further discussion hearing none all those in favor article 12 me get there I make a motion to recommend approval of article 12 tree and invasive species inventory management uh plan submitted by Town manager to transfer $75,000 from free cash for a tree and invasive species Inventory management plan including any incidental and related expenses I don't want to hug this second it discussion uh this is awesome because I as as the questions I asked during the thing is yes we need to do it for the town land because percentage of trees being lost and we all you know going up as a little kids you all here you know trees help us make oxygen and from my own personal fight with Bittersweet is if anything that's learned can be shared with the town as a whole and how to get rid of those horrible you know other plants like that um that would be great use could be something that the whole Community could use I do want to know where the knotweed is where it's located because that's a real concern um because it's leading in some communities to uh make certain pieces of property uninsurable y yeah that's right why is that I don't know not we can destroy foundations yikes W mhm this is just preventive meain it's like the sooner you you get this stuff under control the you know less it costs and less time and effort it takes any further discussion hearing none all those in favor I Article [Applause] 13 I make a motion to recommend approval of Article 13 Golf Course netting and pole extensions to by Town manager to transfer $50,000 from the golf course Enterprise fund retained earnings to extend the property line netting and polls located at the first hole of the chumford country club including any incidental and related expenses a second discussion I I mean yes it's it's pursuant a current law it is a trespass it can expose the town it's town on land MH uh I was at a event for a organization I belonged to last night at at the uh Granite Links and they just to protect the parking lot their netting is 100 or so feet in the air the poles and The netting and it and and I mean it's there and they recognize the need for it they put it in uh and there's and that's not protecting against any any um uh other people's property it's just they're the people parking in the in the G in the parking lot next to it so um I get it I guess I wish you wouldn't have to do it I don't know what's it's going to look like because it's definitely going to be above the tree line yes bet you can paint it green well there's a solution so migratory bird catcher is what that's exactly what it would be and we have more Hawks cuz they like look is it's a buffet any further discussion hearing none all those in favor I I article for 14 14 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 14 South Row School partial roof replacement schematic design submitted by the town manager to transfer $100,000 article as written thank you you're welcome a second second discussion hearing none all those in favor I Article 15 I make motion to recommend approval of Article 15 free cash to the general stabilization fund submitted by Town manager to transfer 526,000 take now that I understand what it is discussion no this is the proper place to put it y agreed y I want a two I want a two-thirds vote rather than a one half vote yep makes sense any further discussion all those in favor I I I article 16 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 16 west chelsford and south chelsford Fire Station construction project submitted by Town manager to borrow uh $25 million as written do a second second discussion I'm waiting to hear somebody else I I can go all night on this we're looking we're looking at if you want to sway me at all this is your chance here's looking at you kid I would really like to hear from other people because I am truly um it's a lot of money finding this hard to deal with it's a it's a lot of money MH it I feel it I feel that it's absolutely necessary to ensure the safety and security of our town and uh to to Chief's uh comments uh last week during the meeting um you know the the construction of these uh fire stations are going to allow the department to grow as the community grows uh I understand it's a lot of money I think the only thing we I think we have to do it i' just like to PR a little bit more like around the growth aspect of it right so to to me this this makes sense right to me there's a couple factors here at play one is it it's kind of a compliance project compliance in that if we don't do it then were not with an OSHA you know regulations and so I don't you know I'd love to learn a little bit more what happens do we get fined do the fire stations have to shut down right and we have a degradation to service the other thing I look at is it's a little bit different where I personally believe in the the philosophy of prefunding things right and so in my opinion like the people who are enjoying these services for the last 20 years were paying $100 a year per household less than they should have for these Services you knew that this is going to come you knew that we would have to fund a replacement for the stations but we just weren't paying for it over that period of time right so that's that's a little bit of a a different perspective right so I think I just like to learn a little bit more like do we need something that that's you know as big is there way of economizing it a little bit right if we're not going to grow as much as as maybe the the plants are are out outline do I don't know if I would characterize it as not paying for something that we needed I I think there are multiple competing uh uh asks throughout the town and a very finite way of funding it um and this all I I agree that they especially seeing the conditions of the two locations I think the study was necessary to determine whether or not we did need to maintain five and from what we're hearing based upon coverage and response times especially that comment about shutting down to I guess from your committee there was some white space uh which would lead to about 8 eight minute response times for certain parts of town was just unacceptable um but there are also concerns about the space itself whether or not it's safe for the Personnel what uh how we'd address that um my concern relates to the other competing things we do have coming um I'm I'm we have a two and a half proposition that would be required in order to handle this and yes it leads to a increase in property taxes property taxes are a renal concern but all the constituents and yes we we have to pay property taxes in order to support our town government the services that we receive and are provided um but we also have other things coming up like the msba project um and that's going to require a two and a half uh proposition override vote and um that would this we're told will be will be reimbursed at 52% um based upon the msba and and what's selected we don't know the price of it although we do know that Tings borrows cost $83 million currently and they are in charge of paying for 54 million of it uh over a 30-year period um so we can guess and it's it's tough to make an estimate because we don't know what what's being built for what configuration because we have to explore that there's another vote earlier this evening but will not refund that study a different way um that st's going to tell us and yes it wouldn't happen until 2026 but we have to be cognizant of the other things that are coming on so I don't disagree we need this and I don't disagree we need to improve um these two locations and I don't disagree that there there our needs there I'm just I'm I'm concerned about the public in General's appetite and I'm concerned about how we address that um because what I don't want to have happen is that we this gets championed this gets pushed through and all of a sudden we're facing another msba vote where we need a 2 and a half override for a larger amount and people are saying well I don't want to support that we already I just supported the 2 and a half previously uh and we're left with our youngest school being the 1977 high school again um it's it's especially where we have more residential projects coming in we have more um uh residences come residents coming in uh so there are other competing concerns I just I'm I don't know how we're going to fund all this welcome to the club yeah I I I I don't know can I ask a couple of questions to the chief for the um do the same um and these are all mitigation type of questions do the do the same employees stay in the same stations in other words the two people that would be in station three the two people that be in station five are they always the same people or do you rotate them there is a contractually there's a what is known as a bid process so when you gain seniority in the department you get what they call a bid so you get to choose your station location by that bid process so the longer that you're on the more senority that you get you get more senority you get to choose which station so some people will tend to stick you know with an engine two or three but there were others who like to mix it up to go to different locations and and there four different units yes and it's also um per the last contract um you can now when you used to take a bid on a unit you were stuck there unless you got promoted now by the last Contra you actually could bid off a unit so if you're working on say I'll give an example unit two for 20 years um and then your last couple years before you retire you want to go on to unit one that's a possibility so you can switch units you can switch stations based on your seniority so I hate to ask it but you opened the door um so is there a lot of competition for three and five I mean are the people that are there are they um last ones you know that they're in the danger zone and everybody else is in the news stations I would answer that it's based on your reference because you're when I do my finance presentation I usually give a list of the responses per station so one's the busiest followed by two and then three then usually four and five they go back and forth so it depends on I to answer that I I suppose what you like for your workload could be the the person you work with might be out at that station there's a lot of factors that come into it so so I I just want to say so it's not always the people bid for the frest one and the most update one they sometimes bid just to hang with their person they get along with it could be somebody you like could be somebody that has bid before you you like that partner you choose to work with that person uh could be acquired a station because maybe you're taking a promotional exam you're going to school um your younger folks tend to be towards engines one and two because they like it busier it depends kind of and probably depends on where you are in your career is there a risk of the project being more than 25 million I think you've answered go yes it's the short answer yeah there it there's always a risk but we we work with our consultant through the permanent building committee to price it in 26 you know fiscal year $26 because if the vote succeeds a town meeting we're going to spend the next year designing it constructing it bid package and so forth it be bid in 26 uh and then and then I took the higher amount as Virginia explained in terms of the cost range so that we wouldn't have to come back because I've learned not to come back for more money on the project imagine that imagine that so yes the hope is is that 25 will cover it uh the entire till the best to you yeah and one more question I think it would be to you to um is okay I understand two and a half two and a half two and a half what does the override be 2 and 3/4 3 and 3.1 what what is the override at okay if if this is every year the funding gets go to it override is a permanent adjustment to your two that's what I so it means what the percentage is you're increasing the base essentially you're you when you doing an override you're increasing the base and then you're still going at the ATT you're increasing the levy base so that's the override and then you're continuing with the two and a half% ask this a debt exclusion this is a debt exclusion yes yeah it goes away sence when you pay it off right okay excuse me this is a Deb exclusion yeah you're not under that con so right what's being sought under this article is a is to we would have to then first it needs town meeting approval and then it needs to go before the Gen all voters at Ballot Box and it's a it's a proposition two and a half debt exclusion I was was asked a question on this at either an earlier fincom meeting or possibly at the select board so the main difference is an operational override is asking the voters to approve a permanent increase in the tax Lev base but a Deb exclusion is asking the voters to approve a temporary increase over the life of the bond to fund this project and as as Dave brought up the last meeting you know we say temporary this we propose to borrow this money over 20 years to construct the fire station so it would be over 20 years in in the beginning we we did you know I did some calculations for the average assessed value um residential home value the first year we see it uh increasing at just over $157 and then because we were paying level principle and the interest declines over time the increase to that that person's bill would slowly go down over time over how many years 20 years 20 years is the term but what happens if we have other projects those would also if if the voters and then this is just you know hypothetical if the voters in two or three years approve new Parker middle school that will allow the town to increase um the tax levy base to um to cover that as well deines over time right so it declines over time so by year 20 um it would increase that same person's bill by $91 however like to David's question if you're adding more projects on that's going to increase because I think if you go before the town meeting and the board don't you have to show some sort of a projection of the next 5 10 years something I mean yes we we're doing an override but I don't know what else has coming if you go to the town website and you go to the through the fire department page there the fire station study committee there's a dedic there's a debt projection that I did and it shows excluded debt five years for the five previous fiscal years the current fiscal year 25 and it shows 20 years in the future and what we said it it at a previous meeting is I would like to show additional projects but we don't have good cost estimates and we don't know the approach that's going to be taken on the Parker Middle School at this time but as soon as I have them right let me go to your point Dave we we we publish every year a fiveyear capital plan that's published in the book to my knowledge looking out five years and probably 10 years I don't see anything else on the horizon other than the Middle School in other words there isn't a police Pro station project coming there isn't a town office building major project coming there's not a library project coming aside from the fire stations in the Parker Middle School there is nothing that we foresee on the immediate Horizon that's going to be subject to the property tax the only other variable that's out there that's unknown is the sewer issue but the sewer issue would be paid for through the sewer uh users just like we're currently paying it now we're no longer paying The Debt Service on the sewer project that debt exclusion is gone that got paid off last year the final phase of the sewer project are paid for from that sewer you know assessment betterment Capital assessment fee that's still still to the to the but you're ask no but you're asking what out there is in the future but quite frankly I think we're we're pretty Dar good place aside from the school facilities than any other comparable community in this region and perhaps across the state we you know we we are quite proud of the facilities condition that we are in a community and I think over the last almost 20 years and even before that that we've really have come a long way in terms of our infrastructure and that's why you see us tonight making the request from the free cash to supplement our Capital request because we know our Capital requests are significant because of the community that we are but that's not a typical from from where we would be if we were sitting we were standing tonight in dubury or in Franklin or naq or what have you but but the answer your question succinctly I don't see anything that coming before this community in the next five to 10 years other than fire station issues and and and and and the school issues in the foreseeable future because this town is done a remarkable job if you look basically over the last aside from the schools you look basically since 1990 or so you've done the library you've done the police station you know just go through you know go through the the assets of the town and you see the Departments and even to the case where we've made investments in our rolling infrastructure in terms of fire apparatus and so forth we are in we're in a solid position going forward um and as you've seen the tax levy in chel said relative to those other towns over that 20 year period has been if anything it's less than it was 20 years ago relative to the to the tax burden on other communities in terms of the tax bill so none of us like to come up here and ask for a debt exclusion but it's remarkable we did at DPW I mean considering where we were you know 15 years ago running in a trailer on richson road that was leaning uh and the and the facility that we had over on K Road and so forth to where we are and how we got there this town should take great pride in in terms of fire station headquarters as opposed to the building we had across from the common that was being held up by wooden beams we not only replaced that facility it financially prudently as well as the work we recently did at the North fire station and so forth um the senior center and so forth I mean we are in a good place and so yes we don't like to come up and ask for the money but but really there isn't like a a long list of debt exclusions that we see coming in O brace yourself and we're also Mindful and as we've been saying in recent months we're also mindful that this town has a history of not funding operational overrides and that's what we're going to be working on going forward um and and it's going to mean as we've done before it's going to mean temporary reductions in services to we that that condition thank you the other thing I would say uh regarding the excluded Debt Service projection is that a good thing that um if you look at it this way is that everyone remembers roughly 20 years ago the second the last big secondary school about 31 A5 $32 million project that was done inv all the high school middle schools um that that bond is going the final payment on that bond is going to be made this year in fiscal year 25 the payment's roughly around 830,000 or so so I'm not saying that you always want to add projects on but it puts us in a good place because we're going to make that final payment and then ultimately it will be up to the voters to decide which projects they want to fund but at least we've come along and after 20 years the school project will be dropping off in fiscalia 25 and then all we'll be left with for an existing outstanding project is the DPW project at Alpha Road John do we anticipate that the any borrowing for the msba would be a 30-year we'd have to look at that um that's about probably the and just maximum you could go I mean we'd also you you know you'd always want to do analysis to see you know does it make sense to do a 25y year bond uh versus 30 to save on interest um you know you want to do that analysis but that's the maximum that you can go under current state law and I know there's a lot of wh ifs there I I I it's it's tough to forecast that um because we just don't we we we're still in the infancy stages of that of that process the reimbursement that's done from the state is that done it hasn't been determined yet but it's done on each individual project case but we know we anticipate it'll be at least 52% uh could be at 54 and so forth you know I'll probably regret saying this but I think the concern is Dave and others is on the residential taxpayer yep and the only thing I will say and and I probably shouldn't say it but I'm but I'm just it's just my nature I'm going to say it what the other communities have done is they've split the rate to to alleviate that problem so when I mention these other communities by and large they've split the rate to to alleviate some of that burden on the on the on the residential payer and I know that's a very third rail issue in chelsford but that's the reality so when you sit there and say well wait a minut how did tuxbury build the school how did you know and so forth and so forth It's because they went to the they went to the full Max rate I'm just telling you that's because that's going to be the question is is but my thinking has been you've had two handicaps right okay and I I recognize that in in whatever thinking I have on this okay I just I I just feel like I have to ask all these questions in order to yeah you know make a the right decision from a financial point of view sorry that's okay no no sorry that's great no so I I will ask a question that uh I probably shouldn't ask as the town manager but I'm going to ask I'm going to ask it anyway aot that little little history here these these major capital projects in chumford over the last 30 years have a history of first iteration second iteration and sometimes third iteration MH because of the nonae I guess of the voters to pass the debt exclusions which I understand and um the center fire headquarters went through that I think that's the that was the third iteration okay because the first proposal was a figure that was too high for people to swallow the second the same and the third finally passed so that's that's been the history of these things so I guess my question is after watching the uh presentation I think I saw it maybe the fourth time Monday night so I think I've got it it's pretty clear to me the need is there I mean there's no question that there's no question that we have to do something with these facilities uh my mind says that I believe this is the third time uh the town has looked at the configuration issue relative to the number of stations and this is the third time the answer has come back that we need five so I I'll accept that you know I mean many people have looked at this a lot sharper than I have and they've all to that conclusion so um I certainly accept that certainly accept the the fact that F facilities need to be upgraded there's no question about it um so I guess my question would be to the fire chief uh or to the town manager or to the chairman of the fire study committee in the event that this project does not pass in its present form has there been any thought given to uh a backup plan if you will for lack of a better word that's my question we don't have a backup plan but the reality is the problem doesn't go away if it fails either the town meeting right or the ballot um yeah you you noted the history of the failed Center Station where we originally proposed it with the Deb exclusion at Wilson and chelsford Street try it again and then ended up over here um we you also noted the issue with the Adams library that failed and then most painfully you probably noted the issue of the high school where they could have done the high school uh failed and never addressed it and then now we couldn't even you know now we're addressing a middle school because we can't even go back to the high school because the state won't bring us in so sometimes the plan B option like the 31 middle school project and high school project with that got the Performing Art Center and so forth wasn't the best outcome mhm right as was noted it was noted early this evening there are some health and and firefighter safety issues that have to be addressed that aren't going away and those those will have to be addressed so if this fails I anticipate the select board would gather uh in November or December and say Where Do We Go From Here in terms of how do we address the safe living quarters for the firefighters who are in those stations um because it is a it is a real legitimate concern um I think you know we we'll have to do something and I think the something is is probably what we ended up seeing when we renovated State the north fire station we had firefighters living in a trailer situation over on Richardson Road with the apparatus you know sort of in a outdoor facility type of situation which is what we're going to have to do uh during construction if it does succeed so you're probably looking at that kind of a situation in the interim until there's a better outcome but I don't know beyond that what you can do the problem is is you know you the need it's the response time and and it's not just the response time as was noted in the presentation last week it's not just response time for fire it's the response time for medical the response time for accidents and other emergencies and and I just we just I just don't see how the community is going to accept a greater response time than what they've accustomed to um by closing the number of stations um so I think the issue becomes okay well we want to keep the the five the response time so we keep the five stations and then we're in some kind of a temporary housing thing and the problem is that's fraught with its own problems as you know as as you can imagine because you know you're you you it's not just oh where the firefighters are living it's also the issues of how do you safely store the the gear how do you wash the gear how do you you know maintain all the everything that comes with when they do return from from a a hazard scene um so that's that's that's going to be our challenge if it doesn't succeed um and unfortunately you know those are second best solutions that you know I I don't think we want we want to have to address MH okay thank you and one more question uh am I correct in saying that in order for this to move forward it requires both a 2/3 approval from town meeting and passage at the ballot is that a correct statement the vote the motion at town meeting will be contingent upon as you can see there as subject to the successful passage of a proposition two and half de exclusion ballot question state election so if the town meeting votes by 2third to approve it it's a contingent vote and then you need a majority at the ballot on November 5th um so and that's nothing moves forward unless that happens so we can't move forward without the DEA exclusion and that's what the that's why the most motion's written that way but if we don't get through the town meeting with the vote then the ballot vote in in November if it were passed you know would would not and that have effect on its own that's not a two3 of the right yeah exactly I have I have a question um what how is things and this probably not to you Paul uh how are things decam decontaminated now so to answer your question so currently at both the headquarters next door and engine two we do have the proper facilities for decontamination for the storage of the gear and also if they come back and they have to wash if we have those facilities if you're in the Aline stations engin three that we're talking about engine five or four um there is a gar wash engine 4 but as far as the storage it's in the you know they're storing them in the apparatus Bay that's exposed to carcinogens so if you're in one of those outline stations if you have to wash your gear you can bring them into the center or you can bring them to the north but you can't do it right away because you're working at those stations you maybe on your day off or or we would have to make some arrangements right so it it but it's not readily available to answer your question uh so does it put people out of position could temporarily yes yeah yes so that's that's that's something that's why we have second set of Gears so they could put their second set so they might have to come into the center drop their gear off to be cleaned and then they have their second set yes so but that's not ideal in a longterm ideal no I agre you then and if you had a I I hate to say this cuz it if you had busy season you could leave people with not enough gear it just a bad run of luck it could be yeah it could you know it could even be like uh doesn't have to be a structure fire but even a car fire or something or you get um last week good example we had a trash truck that had a not too far from here with the hydraulic line that went so they got hydraulic fluid on them so that gear had to be brought back and decontaminated so it's not just the gear it's the people themselves right right I mean they oh absolutely so you need right yeah that's the most important part that you know um if you're one of those substations that we're talking about the the bunk rooms are located in the operat bay so you're exposed to those carcinogens as the Manel was saying they're oer is actually looking very strongly at these issues right now and we expect that there will be a decision probably they'll stop probably disseminating the um their findings next year my best guess is that we'll see something come to effect in 2026 once that takes place we're going to be mandated to following those rules or we will be out of compliance okay thank you I think this ties back into also our proper management of the stabilization fund and the fact that it may have to be addressed in the future um we aren't facing those two and a half override uh votes that other towns have had to face for operations um at least not currently and hopefully forecasting we won't have to do that we can address it through other means um but we have two this and another potentially big debt exclusion coming up so I think it's going to rely on education I just I this I I agree this has to be done I it's it's not for for both efficiency economics and for safety um I just I wish we didn't have another competing thing coming so soon I have to make one final comment and the reason for it is cuz I'll tell you how I'm going to vote in the comment but um sus spense is killing me Dave this is the hottest decision I've had to make since being on the finance committee okay and my because um the businessman guy the finance guy in me says I'm not voting for any override period you draw you draw that line you go over that line and you know there'll be a second a third a fourth Etc but I have be honest with you um the need is obvious I mean you can't have those guys uh under the condition they're at and you can't have a future where you're going to have men next to women or I mean they've got to be they have their own rooms they've got to be safe and I I I'll tell you my own experience and some member of my family if it wasn't for the fire department he wouldn't be here today and they were there so quick because they were so close uh and our fire chief not only followed up but then went to the hospital both that night and the next day to see how the guy was where do you get that in how many communities so I'm voting for this even though um it's hard for me it's very emotional for me but I'm definitely voting for it we have to take care of those guys I think we all know someone that lives very close to three or five we all do yes absolutely do I live near five well I could just down the street from three but that wasn't where it was there was somebody else in my family it's not pre-planning there but the chief knows yeah I think you speak for many of us and that was very well that was very well said and I share all the same concerns you do and and and the same concerns that have been voiced by the chair mhm um however at uh at the end of the day the voters in the town are going to make this decision yep and uh I guess I believe uh I guess I believe that the town meeting really ought to respect that and I would like to see a two-thirds vote by town meeting to support this and now now you know I'm going to vote on this right uh I would like to see a two-thirds vote by town meeting and then I would like the uh folks in chumford on a general ballot to make the decision because that's where the decision is going to be made shouldn't be made shouldn't be made by should not be made by a small subset of town meeting reps it should be made by the voters so uh I am going to vote uh that we recommend that they pass this well said any further discussion um I'm I'm going to vote for it and I hope that the chief and when they do the presentation really Hammer home the OSHA possibilities because yeah we'll save 15 bucks this week but next week have to spend this or and I'm not week but years because we're in Ocean compin we have to put them in separate housing because it's it's not Kosher it's sometimes you just have to do the repair the chief will make an excellent presentation well I think it's actually the fire station study committee and the chair of the fire St will they will make an excellent any further discussion all those in favor I I article 17 article 17 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 17 resend unexpended Community preservation fund appropriation submitted by the community preservation committee as written I believe it's my turn I second it it's been a while I don't know discussion who wants to vote against a club this this no one Sam I don't think so it's a [Laughter] no-brainer any further discussion hearing none all those in favor I article 18 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 18 community housing at one Smith Street submitted by community preserv Committee in the amount of $ 2,600,000 as written second it discussion I have to say what um uh chumford housing Choice led by Mr hederson they make good projects their stuff isn't ugly it's usually well thought out and um obviously he cares a lot about his residence and I was impressed that he was able to get that much stuff uh for the heating and El uh heating the air conditioning the need is definitely there for this if you've ever been to Smith Street and been in those units I have uh the need is there and this ask is from CPC and and it's a small portion of the all the overall funds that are being secured for this but it's a necessary step in order to proceed with it any further discussion all those in favor I Article 19 I make a motion to recommend approval of Article 19 Grant easement to Chums water district submitted by the school committee as written second discussion hearing none all those in favor I article 20 I make a motion to recommend approval of article 20 transfer Parcels of to Conservation Commission submitted by the select board as written your turn Dave as stated I second it thank you thank you discussion these are all the little Wetlands right these they're not all little but they're all wet yeah yeah you can see pretty easy pretty straightforward pretty straightforward yeah any further discussion all those in favor I article 21 I love this one I make a motion to recommend approval of article 21 Street acceptance parkor Road submitted by select board as written I second it discussion about time yeah that's who know welcome to town this this happens more often than you think oh yes yes um across Massachusetts because of just the way our our streets are now shouldn't we get more money because it one it's approved this will be added to a chapter 90 absolutely love it get that three cents will make all the difference that's right it's all about the pennies any further discussion all those in favor I and so concludes our votes on the town meeting articles i' never thought we got this quickly all right next turn agenda is discussion of future meetings and timeline for finance committee warrant book production um Pam we need to have the we Circ the book when and then I'm going to send out what I have this weekend without the letter probably yeah it'll be without the letter yeah and excuse me and then when you give the letter sure then we're ready to go the um the information session is the week before so 21st is the is the uh start of fall time an earlier date that mean the 2 the 16th is going to be the informational session uh we want to be certainly before that informational session on the 16th uh hopefully the week before at Le at the very least uh with the book over have they have they given you an indication of how long they expect the the production to take it's usually about three or four days three or four days I think there's a holiday in there there is yeah so so and that's the same week as the informational session yeah I have the book being delivered to to the printer on the eth on the eth okay good all right yep so there were there were no votes that were split if you will but there's any any information you'd like to contribute uh to add into the letter uh don't hesitate to do so and I will incorporate that into the letter um so we can get that together and get that published and get that added to the book um but we'll have we'll plan on having a everything off to the um town website and then uh produced in in time for the informational session as far as future meetings that concludes our meetings unless there's a special town meeting which I hope there is not um uh until end of January beginning of February except for the tribe board meeting which I anticipate will be sometime in either December or January so town meeting de then not till December correct okay yeah at least um of course Dave will be on the capital planning committee so he has a couple more meetings coming up but he's extra I know John's [Laughter] excited e e e e for