e e are we live live let the rebels be you are now okay so it's being 6 o' we'll bring to order this meeting of the Chumps planning board for June 26th we are functioning both live and with um Zoom participation from Mike Walsh andita tanini um as well as a couple other people and Joel sorry didn't know didn't see you there Joel um and um the zoom go down that we will do our best um but we will we will continue the meeting should we continue with the Quorum which I guess we will have um also this meeting is being recorded by tele media um so first up we're doing a work session reviewing the outdoor um lighting bylaw proposed as a replacement by Kelly um I suggested that maybe we allow David hederson to go first his his presentation sure so we'll take out we'll start with is that okay with you that's fine wor so we'll start with David and David is going to give us an update on our um affordable housing projects and where we stand um in the process with some of some outstanding to to me or anyway gray areas great hi um good evening everyone I'm happy to be here it's David Hedison from the ch housing authority and I want to thank dearra um we bummed into each other and it was a great opportunity to be able to get onto the agenda tonight and provide you all with an update um even though things may seem very normal to me sometimes when I don't see all of you regularly or touch base um things can um there can be questions on where things stand so the good news is um which was actually not that great of news was we closed on the property at 255 Princeton in January of 2024 but back in September of 2022 uh we were having regular meetings because the closing date was supposed to be December of 2023 so we were working towards a closing date um of January 2023 and the the purchase and sale just never it just there kept being there kept delays delays kept occurring and um by June we were meeting regularly to talk about the cling because we were trying to Target a closing date prior to you know October 1st so we had our plans approved for UMass West I call it our UMass West project um by Evan um in September of 2023 and we are allowed to enter into the state funding rounds for tax credits you know once a year we submit a pre-application October of each year and and they will let us know whether they're going to let us apply or not and you need to have you know your site control you need to have your you know your permit in hand um and when we weren't closing on the property in October it was not going to it was not going to happen so we pushed forward we closed in January of 2024 and what happened is is we are now like holding on to the plans where more than ready and as soon as October 2024 arrives we'll be submitting a package that's complete ready to go so our hope is October 2024 we submit the pre-application we have nothing else that's waiting to be funded um we'll hear by December January to submit the full package which will be by probably April 2025 we'll get notification of funding hopefully a year from now and we'll be able to start towards or working towards closing so that's what's happening with the UMass West site so in the perfect world we would have closed on the property of you know December of 2022 January 2023 and we could have submitted last year but that just didn't happen um what I will say is in every fall we're allowed to submit two applications so I'm the type of person and we're the type of agency that I never want a funding round to go past without me submitting something so we always have typically like a stack of four projects and those four projects are always in different stages of preparedness so um this last round we only had one application go in um we've had two projects funded in Sandwich Mass but those projects have been sitting around for five to seven years but no other project took the place of Chumps that would always be number one so this next round will be chelsford and our Westford Town Farm are two applications going in and I'm happy to answer any questions about this project first well I have a quick question so if we if you submit the initial paperwork in October and then the final packet in whatever December January and hopefully we hear um because all the permits are in place and you control the property um we would hope to hear sometime like did you say April to June of next of 25 is that right is it could be like I'd say June is okay like Jun and there's more money so the bond bill that's currently being it's currently in the Senate right the big housing Bond bill is has a lot more money in it right so there could be it could be a faster round it could be could open up two rounds next year it could open up one sooner so I mean I'm thinking at if we if we're going the same path as we've always gone submit October we could know April it could be may it could be June and then when we get the notification for full disclosure we get the award of funding and then it takes us up to three months to close so if you just imagine you're buying a house even though like you put an offer and you don't close the next day you have to work with your your mortgage company we're working with the state and proba three to four other law firms and funding a funding agencies and that can take up to three months to get that closing date set so even in a perfect world where it's April let's say it's April we'll talk May June July until we have the formal closing when the funds are in our account and the shovel can start digging or we'll have a building permit in here so and at what point in that timeline are we able to um re put those units on our affordable housing inventory okay Evan's there with us so um once a shutle digging or yeah once we have once we pull our permits plus the regulatory agreement yeah so let me just say this to you so to Bigg you back on what he just said is we will need we will have a new regulatory agreement that reflects all the funding that we have so when I said we go towards that closing we be awarded funding in April we go towards a closing which is 3 months worth of work in those 3 months we finalize the regulatory agreement which protects like the 20 plus million dollars coming in from the state and then on that closing date the regulatory agreement is finalized and recorded the town will have that will have a building permit pulled and they should be able to add it if it gets submitted into hlc and hlc receives the package from the town and hlc says oh thank you for submitting it's going to take us two to three months to update our system that's then another conversation not on us or not on the town it's it's the state that sometimes will come back and say it's two to three months which is what they said I think this last time we asked for addition of units okay and then do you have any other um chel sword projects behind that one and what would be maybe a potential timeline for that okay so the good news is um we're looking I think it's good news so the good news is is we're looking to redevelop one Smith Street so some of you may know the um senior development that's on the corner of Smith and stemman Street that's a 1968 1969 state public housing development we've already been able to secure the transfer of that property over to our nonprofit Choice um we're awarding a contract to SV Architects to do the um the master planning the hope is when McFarland Manor is done at 10 Wilson Street that's a 15 to18 million rehab got renovation will'll move everyone out of Smith Street chumford arms over back to 10 Wilson Street will vacate one Smith Street and we'll be able to redevelop that site what this means is the building when it was done in 1969 has a decision by the planning board we're not going to be seeking you know um existing conditions or what whatever we call it um you know already it's already doesn't um I can't think of the word preexisting preexisting we're not doing that we're going to go back we're going to go into the zba with a 40b application and we're going to try to propose to go from 64 units in a twostory two two-story buildings to add a third story and a brand new development to bring the site up to 96 units and we're hoping that we will have something to submit end of 2024 beginning of 2025 to the zba for review or for approval as of 40b if that gets you know once we submit and it gets approved I believe I mean we usually don't wait for we need a regulatory agreement Evan um but that's the next one in our pipeline for chumford that would be the the earliest we could get numbers back would be that building permit am I right on that the 255 Princeton development that precedes um Smith Street that'll be done first that will be done first and that will resolve the the deficiency okay I'm trying I really want to get these units like I want these done and I want them added we have such a long senior housing list um and then so um the funding is it would it be the same process for the Smith Street in terms of going into the state and the sub subsequent fall looking for funding from them and so January may all the same timeline a year later if we're if it works out that way best case is that right yes so we're in for the zba zoning board with a set of plans for let's say January 2025 by summer we have an approved plan this is the key thing though um we may I mean the problem is we'll have zoning permit we'll have building permit not building um we'll have design documents we'll have um a a building not um approval from zoning but we're going to have 64 residents still living at that building until mcf and Mana is done I can't move those people out right and that's delayed right now which is causing me again a lot of frustration with the state yeah because this was supposed to start this was funded in 2019 as a $4 million project we're now at 2024 and it's you know an $18 million it's probably going to be higher when it's the bids come back so I need that place to be vacant because they're not going to award me funding on a building that's fully occupied so I so I'm saying to you it's probably going to be a three or five year process we're in 2024 right now by the time this happens it's going to be 2027 2028 oh I know for when we see actual units at that site okay this is the world I live in I hate but if if we're able to get funding sooner than later and there's not a shortfall I mean there are so many people lining up for funds right now for redevelopment of the public housing that we're one of the first ones going in but we're competing against Boston's portfolio medford's portfolio wier's portfolio and we're pushy we've snuck ourselves into that line but unless we can find an emergency or real reason to push it further to the top um realistically you know I say 2028 but that could be better if the funding is available and if we can you know I will do my best to try to find reasons why we need to move it faster okay anyone else have any questions for David that's great thanks for the update thanks for the update well no listen thank you to all of you for all your work and all your support all these years and all the projects we're looking to do and I'm happy to come and chime in or just let you know what's happening because I live in my world of you know delays which is which are constant and I think the more I share with you the more you're aware of it you know the better you know the better I think people will feel about where we are it's not great but we'll get there thank you so much everyone thanks thank you David all right so next up we have the late policy well good evening um I'm Kelly B 117 Park Road I've lived in cheler since 1985 I know some of you not all of you um I might have a reputation as the astronomy guy the lighting guy I'm all those things I'm retired I'm the retired guy now um we have an existing outdoor lighting by law in town that dates from the year 2000 which I worked with Bob Morse to craft way back when and in the roughly quarter Century since then then we were one of the first towns to have such a thing there are now about 50 towns in the Commonwealth that have lighting bylaws some are really good some are most are really not good at all they like uh are rather vague and completely unenforcable the reason I've come before you is uh for a couple of reasons first of all I I am a member of an organization called dark sky International with the challenge the nonprofit with the challenge of trying to stem light pollution and keep our skies dark for lots of reasons um and so we in our Massachusetts chapter worked with lighting professionals to come up with a template for an outdoor lighting ordinance that was uh embodied best practices and Community engagement and and those sorts of issues and actually what I submitted to uh you is based on that drawing from the best of what was in our existing document uh recognizing that that's been outdated that's one reason another is in the last quarter Century we've come to know and love or hate these things called LEDs light emitting diodes which have you know they are a once in a multi-generational change in the way we light our outdoor spaces and there's good ones there's bad ones there's really ugly ones and so so I think the next gen of our outdoor lighting bylaw has to really come to grips with that uh LEDs are very economical to operate they are a totally new technology they last a very long time they can they can do things that older style lighting just can't they can be turned on and off all the time they can be dimmed um there are places in Europe that have streets that uh they use a motion sensor and when they detect a pedestrian or a car coming down the road only then did the lights come on I'm not proposing that for here but uh the technology is just amazing it can also be overused and so we see here in town essentially every business or property owner residential or commercial that has installed a bright LED light uh in the LA of any kind but certainly within the last quarter century and if that light is not point straight down they're in violation of the existing bylaw the existing bylaw has a sort of a core uh tenant is that any outdoor light should be pointed so that all the light goes below horizontal and there are lots and lots of places that don't do that now it's right now under the jurisdiction of the building inspector to police that it's a complaint driven zoning bylaw and um you know I've I've talked to the building inspector once or twice and and he has occasionally uh gone after some of the businesses that i' I've pointed out to him usually you know usually what happens is you on the planning board often the the somebody who brings a development forward they have a lighting plan and to your credit and to Bob's credit that has been in place for a long time where you actually have a check and balance on what is ostensibly being installed the problem is that you were a couple of degrees of separation from that the final product that that plan gets turned over to an architect which gets turned over to a a contractor which might get turned over to a local electrician or and and and then finally the owner of the property might have something to say about how those lights are are are um played out so one of the things I want to I want to do is try to make a way that creates a bylaw that's enforcable and so I had an early conversation about this was roughly a year ago with Evan uh with an early draft of this and we went through it and kind of determined you know what would make sense and what wouldn't and I as I explained to him at the outset I'm I think I'm I'm not the expert here on governance I think what I want to do is go after a general bylaw not a zoning bylaw so that among other things we can have a sunset Clause uh declaring all nonconform all all lights that don't M the meet the these criteria as non-conforming and then give a window for for bringing those into compliance or different ways that those can be brought into compliance and so I I'm not sure if a general bylaw is under your purview if it's something that you can put forward I think that's sort of the big question for the initially for me is that can you propose for town meeting General bylaws as distinct from zoning bylaws I don't see why we can't and in any case part of this would involve uh uh removing the existing zoning bylaw that's right that's correct so so we're we're in part of it no matter what right so we would have to yield that in order to propose but somebody else I mean well they can be done in the same yeah in the in the same uh yeah transaction a town meeting right and and you know this it's not common I will admit upfront it's not common to have a general bylaw doing lighting having this sort of non- forming uh but it is becoming more common uh The Nantucket uh the island thereof which is actually trying to become a certified dark sky place uh that process uh involves having a fairly stringent bylaw that uh brings all lights into compliance within a certain period of time now there are a lot of things in Nantucket bylaw that you won't see here I'm trying to you know the the the goal here right I I've I really enjoy being in this community and I I have a sense of it there it's a it's a semi- rural suburb there are we have we're big on conservation space and like Sunny Meadow Farms it's a place I go to do stargazing all the time it's really nice and dark there the street lights that we have uh that are a consequence of the uh Energy Services contract that we signed with Johnson Controls roughly a decade ago Johnson Controls was not in the business of of doing the right thing by lighting they were just swapping out basically Lumin for Lumin any light that we wanted with an LED which saved money and that was what they were going after I got involved in that process and managed to get them to install street lights with a warmer color temperature than what they had specified had they done that we would be really unhappy as a community because they were they were horrible lights and in fact some of those lights got through my my scrutiny uh what you see for area lights around the schools and even Town Hall here these are what are called 5700 Kelvin um that's a very bluish light uh and and we can get into it at some other time or now but blue light is really the enemy here overall in terms of energy consumption Dark Skies environmental harm human health concerns circadian rhythm regulation they all point back to Blue wavelengths of light so one of the things that this bylaw would require is that any new lighting and any lighting brought into conformance have a fairly low color temperature I guess I'll demonstrate that now these are two and by the way this wouldn't apply to all lights uh we would leave as uh uh safe for example your typical porch light on a home uh which yields about 800 lumens back in the day you used a 60 watt light bulb to get those 800 lumens today you use a 9 watt LED but these are two identical LEDs both used 9 Watts both create 800 lumens the difference is only their color temperature and I apologize to Anita and the others online this does not ever show up as well on video as it does in person but I think you can tell that there's a very distinct difference in the in the color between these this is 4,000 Kelvin which is the color temperature of our street lights here in town and this is 27 00 Kelvin and uh this is obviously a warmer Hue this has more blue uh this has um uh less blue in it and if you were to see these in a darkened room this one would look a lot brighter to your eye uh if you think of this in a nighttime environment this would look stunningly brighter to your eye through a through a process in your eye that I won't get into but at night when you switch to your night vision that night vision is much more sensitive to Blue Light and so uh had we installed those 5700 Kelvin lights in town uh people would have been even though they weren't any brighter in terms of lumens there would have been a lot of screaming about how much brighter they are and and we dodged that bullet so okay that's enough for color temperature um so I don't quite I I sort of in Envision this as a first step conversation as opposed to you know saying it has to be this way I mean I think I could I don't know how these things are worked out through you when you propose a bylaw for town meeting whether you have a subcommittee or whatever um I worked with with Mike for example when uh several years ago we revised the sign bylaw and we dealt with illuminated signs one of the things about the old zoning bylaw the existing one is it has all kinds of prescriptions for illuminated signs right but that's what the sign bylaw is for and now takes care of so in that sense there's needless overlap so you won't see anything in this about illuminated signs CU I that's taken care of Elsewhere so um I am I I should also say for the record I am not a lighting professional I've just trained myself to know a lot about it uh I'm not an electrician I approach lighting the same way that I would approach uh because it's a technical subject uh but in terms of the town and and creating enforcement protocols um it's not unlike what you have the codes that you have for plumbing or electricity or construction uh one of the things I Envision seeing in a new bylaw is anytime a property changes hands that the lighting on that property be brought into Conformity for the same way that when a property changes hands you have a fire inspection you know and and so forth I can see having a lighting inspection uh for those properties um I have a question on enforcement yes um so in in it's saying that we would hire a outdoor lighting inspector um and your and this would be a professional in in lighting yeah and this was something that Evan and I discussed uh a year ago um I'm not sure how many places this like like dog officers tree officers there are some professionals that you have in town that are are not necessarily uh employees but they're called upon to to render judgment on certain circumstances and I see that here and in fact Evan and I talked about the idea of having a shared resource uh with maybe other towns this is this is somebody that you would call in to for example examine a lighting plan or to do an inspection of a property before the building inspector signs off on it it would be on an hourly rate it would be a contractor in that sense uh if you had a um a disagreement between a property owner and the next door neighbor or something like that there's a person who come could come in take measures professionally adjudicate in a way that is beyond what I think the scope of the building inspector would be so yes and and what I don't yet have but I can certainly get for you is the notion of how much that would cost but I'm thinking that in many circumstances like when you're approving a building plan or something like that the cost of that ascertainment could be passed on to to the petitioner whoever that might be what about the electrical inspector no could be the electrical inspector but I'm not sure that the electrical inspector is familiar with the the lingo of lighting uh that certainly could be uh a capability that's developed um you know I I I'm agnostic in terms of who actually does the inspection but one of the one of the weaknesses of all almost every lighting ordinance that I have ever seen is in fact enforcement um it's difficult it's a complaint driven process and it's difficult to get some of them are worded so vaguely like your neighbor's light shall not be strong enough to cause you to have a shadow cast on your property well what the heck does that mean right there but there are there are quantifiable ways to measure that and there's some of them in this bylaw um that that a professional could easily and quickly ascertain so you said that there's already some of this in our current bylaw um so what's the current enforcement so right now if I had a problem with my across the street neighbors light being shining in my eyes um would what would be the current you go to the building inspector okay but then there's the question of grandfathering how long does something have to have been in place before it's really considered too long ago to be enforcable now I see uh I I don't know what that standard is here right right no I was just wondering who enforces but that but that would be it and and so when that person goes out when the building inspector goes out in a sense he'll be uh at a technological disadvantage if he can't actually measure what the amount of the of the uh disturbance is um and so that's why that's why I I'm seeing a I'm seeing the use of a of a professional lighting person as a good way to go here yeah okay one of the concerns I have well I like um I like the direction this is heading and I like the um the intent of this but one of the concerns I have is if we need a professional in order to um to in order to judge compliance how is a typical homeowner going to be able to swap out a light bulb in a way that they are able to judge compliance you know it will be when I I wouldn't call the professional in when somebody is changing a light bulb or having um uh you know a new fixture put in I'm trying to capture the sort of large scale efforts or the ones that have a sort of legal uh Line in the Sand for like the sale of a home for example okay um one of the things that is in here people have security lights in their backyard that would be apart from the is it up or down or not and I think we we want to do a better job of this and I should say parenthetically most security lights and homeowner lights that get installed are on a pivot of some kind so I think in terms of of making compliance this goes for business lighting as well you know compliance could be a a 10-second Twist of a fixture uh and if we get to the point where you want a formal presentation on this I can show you before after examples that that show how atically this is the reason this above horizontal becomes so important and I realize this is a degression from what you asked is one of the things we've come to realize is that a big problem in modern lighting especially with LEDs is this it's glare right it's the brightness you've all experienced this with like a high intensity car light coming toward you and so it's not even so much about keeping that light from going up into the atmosphere is that it's keeping that light from going into your eye and creating a nuisance or a hazard for you as you're trying to drive as you're trying to walk and so forth and so um for the average homeowner uh I wouldn't expect that normal activity would be uh would be caused to call in the lighting professional unless there were a a a disagreement right like and then and then the lighting professional could have the final say and that that say would be binding so I don't know where next to go with this I gave you versions of this that kind of showed the old bylaw and where there were you know weaknesses with it for example the old bylaw said that uh any fixture less than 2,000 lumens would wasn't Bound by the bylaw that's almost the brightness of a city of a residential street light all right that's a pretty bright light and so we've dropped that to 800 lumens which is the you know the the the standard porch light uh and even then somebody who has security lighting in their backyard could have brighter lighting as long as it was on a motion sensor I mean I have I have security lights in my backyard to that I will occasionally turn on for five minutes while I'm walking out to the compost pile or something like that but they're not on all night and so that's the kind of lighting that's so incidental that I wouldn't think would be warranted to go after um as with as with all things there are big fish and little fish and and I'm not going to be I and I don't want to be perceived as you know the um the lighting police here uh but I will work I will hope to work I mean depending on how this goes forward I will want to work with like the The chuner Business Association to talk to them about their members work with uh uh police and fire uh one of the things that police will tell you is that when they're trying to find out if there's a you know a bad guy lurking in the shadows is often they're dealing with so much glare from a security light that their their vision is actually impaired and and so again glare comes back to glare um and so I will look to build a coalition of stakeholders so that everyone understands and uh and agrees with what we're trying to do here what I'm trying to do here another recommendation along that lines that I might have is that if if you really are not looking for those in ental uh lighting to be covered I would suggest maybe making that clear in the bylaw and making a differentiation between that because what I would be a little bit concerned about is if if this is so broad that that could be covered if neighbors were to use this as a weapon against neighbors that they don't like um and so I that's one suggestion you may want to think about is is that type of delineation between what is covered what isn't and make I believe it's in there this for example this 00 Lum it first of all the shielding part of it everything must Point down sort of applies universally right 800 lumens or above a bare naked porch light like that wouldn't be covered but anything brighter than that would have to be shielded now whether it's casting so much light as to annoy a neighbor you know the analogy I use is we don't think of light as something obtrusive but if I had a sprinkler system in my yard that every time it came on it it it randomly you know shot water all over my neighbor's property or out into the street somebody would want you to do something about that and I don't think that light is or or a noise ordinance too is sort of the same kind of unseen but there and I I just see lighting as as uh something that falls in that kind of category um if it's if it's excessive and if it's annoying your neighbor then then you're the question is should you be obligated to do something about it there are some there are some guard rails in here all right one one for example that is becoming more important is sports lighting um we have a lot of sports Fields here in town and and to my my recollection they're really not on all night or like way into the morning hours but there are now standards for sports lighting and so not that I would go in and ask like the little leagues teams and such to rip out all the lighting that they've got but if they were ever to replace what they have then we would like them to you know at least take a look at these guidelines that have been vetted by all kinds of professionals and sports or organizations as as a guide or maybe a requirement for for their new Lighting systems so one last one last thing um oh by the way Chris I I just want to say I don't see this as a final document no right I see it as a starting point for our conversation and and you know there's I I brought a pen this is my lucky pen by the way uh to uh to to make notes and and and you know look for ways to to make it better y I did mention this at the Conservation Commission meeting yesterday um where I'm the the liaison and they would be interested in getting some about it as well um so if you could contact the the chair of of that commission and and present to them too AB your idea they would be happy to hear about it and provide some feedback you know I'll give you just an example that that occurs to me right the lighting guy uh I go through town I happen to drive through town at 3:00 in the morning just three days ago because I was on my way to Logan to catch a flight and I was just astounded by how much lighting still exists including in the historic district and in the conservation areas um if you've got uh you know um an an old and historically significant building I'll guarantee you that in colonial times there were not spotlights on it after it got dark and so I would work with the Conservation Commission and the historic district commission to kind of uh you know um maybe do an overlay that's even stricter than what the bylaw agrees to one of the things about this town is it is a pretty dark town uh I live on on Park Road and I'm thrilled that all of my neighbors when they go to sleep all of their porch lights are off I go out stand on my driveway the lights are the sky is great the only thing in my way is the street light that's right across the street from me can't do anything about that there are only four street lights on Park Road all of it and one of them's in front of my house there you go uh and I by the way that I will say one one place I want to engage is the municipal departments DPW uh uh and and and Town Hall um to see where we can do a better job with the lighting we have my understanding is part of the issue with a zoning bylaw is that Municipal lighting really isn't captured under that is that correct I mean it can be that you I would like to think that the town would be leading by example but uh the the bylaw that we have the zoning bylaw that we have is the town Bound by that not within the right of way yeah but but parking lots would be our our subject to it and David I don't know if you're still on the on the on the call here but oh too bad well in his stad please tell him I said this I have worked with David multiple times on some of the housing uh developments we he has been great uh seniors specifically have a hard time with glare and we've worked to to change out the lighting for the better in a lot of cases well maybe we could um all kind of think about it and talk about it with um others and maybe I mean if we're going to have if we're going to bring this to town meeting and we need to back it up and have a draft sometime at by the end of August correct yes select board is scheduled to sign the warrant on September 9th um is that GNA be a Citizens petition or are we doing this that needs to be figured out at a minimum you'd have to sponsor the deletion and have a hearing to delete the to delete the existing bylaw I I don't know that there is anything that that limits the uh planning board from presenting something and it isn't strictly zooming I'm not sure we have enough time to do it for the next town meeting well I think we do have to hold a hearing about it uh you wouldn't be holding a hearing for the new bylaw non zoning but for deleting the old one correct but then people are going to want to repl it with of course so by default we're g to right be talking about the new have two public hearings about it no the planning board only needs one public hearing to delete as part of that public hearing you can invite a subject matter expert to present and answer questions on the proposed but what Kelly's proposing is is a non- zoning bylaw right so the planning board will have no no involvement in that in the the adoption of the new bylaw well we could you could but it won't be it won't you won't require a public hearing like a zoning barle would and and by the way I have no particular timeline here I want this to progress the right way the the most complete way and and if we can't make it for this fall town meeting that's fine with me I don't see why we can't I feel like we could put it on a the resending part put it on the the recision is easy I mean and then um but if the Conservation Commission wants some input um well I'll I'll set I'll set Kelly up with the uh email for the conservation chair we can also at your request uh have you join a departmental meeting that's a good form where everybody will be together uh you're Outreach to the CBA and other stakeholders would need to be on your own and then if we're agreeing that the planning that you're going to report back to the planning board we we need to figure out dates between now and August I'm just a little worried that if we're also thinking about doing other zoning well I mean we'll just do the resending it sounds like Kelly could take it on or Not by August and he could bring it even even if you brought it as a Citizens petition but we supported it but we still have to hold public hearings on the resending of the zoning and that's just one meeting can be one meeting well it depends because if I think what the point you're trying to make is it's unlikely the B is going to resend if the proposed bylaw is not fully baked right well I mean we article if it's not baked and people wouldn't want to support the resending of an article if the new one isn't exactly what they're looking for so because we're having a hearing on the resending of the article or the zoning it would by default be a discussion on the new which makes sense we could do those both in August you could assuming that it's ready I mean right and yeah but I think as far as the plany board committing to holding a hearing to delete we can we can commit to that I think it's a comment upon Kelly to make sure that he touches base with the planning board and sometime prior to Late Late July to make sure that it is fully um fully vetted it has conceptual support from St I had in my mind I had a sort of uh task force for lack of a better word which might consist of a couple people from the planning board the chief of police the DPW people the uh you know somebody from the Conservation Commission or whomever to have a working meeting in terms of public connectivity I could see having I mean I am driving the the bus here I acknowledge that I could see having something at the library or something like that where where it doesn't need to be an official Gathering but it would get allow people to come and say you know post it ahead of time and let them see what is coming down I don't know what your what the method of of communication with the town meeting reps is but maybe that's a way to to uh solicit you know uh reason opinion and and questions and and suggestions well yeah I mean you could send out an email to them before such a meeting at the library and generate additional support Andor ideas and feedback but I mean I feel like in terms like if it happens then we can support it or not and if it doesn't happen then we resend our article to resend the zoning Artic so but realistically when does the the select board need September the final language they sign the warrant on the 9th it goes to council a week prior to uh 9th of September so they need it at the end of August they need it uh first like September 1st 1 2 Monday the 2 so that leaves us two meetings yeah well it depends how much that's what I'm saying I think we're not contemplating the planning we're doing a lot of lifting here is what I'm hearing yeah may be participating in a task force I think that I I think the unique aspect of this is that as I understand it the community likely thinks the planning board are the lighting experts because you do lighting review as part of site plan and special permits for commercial industrial things of that nature so I think the unique aspect of this for town meeting reps and other stakeholders will be um even though it's not a zoning article what is the planning board's opinion about it because right now A constituent can can clearly understand and say that the planning board is responsible for reviewing and ensuring compliance on commercial industrial multi family development under this proposal it doesn't appear as though that's in the procedures it doesn't mean that it couldn't be that the planning board does a does a review as part of its permitting um but there there's pros and cons to those those procedures but that's where I think town meeting members are going to want to know what to to what extent has the planning board been involved in this and to what extent is the planning board have reviewed it and supportive of it and then you bring up a a good point where if this changes to a general bylaw instead of a zoning bylaw how much can we how much Authority then do we have in the site plan reviews that would need to be worked out I mean I see one provision in Kelly's proposal that says Provisions can be reduced by a special permit so right there I think council's going to likely need some clarity where it's a non- zoning bylaw but you're introducing a special as soon as soon as you say that right it means we're going to have to we're I'm not even sure that's acceptable yeah and and and sorry to interrupt but I mean one of the things that I did see happening before submit is maybe pass it to Town Council to see where this goes off the rails mhm if at all uh and and you know for example should the planning board not just support it but be the uh but be the uh initiation of it from town meeting standpoint obviously from my point of view I would love to have the planning board be the be The Driver you the submitter those are good legal questions I I can begin to ask those yeah and work with Kelly to get those if if the planning Bo can be involved in a review as as as a non zoning bylaw and that's considered okay then maybe that's the best approach but I'm just trying to be realistic in terms of our time and the timeline for this and I don't think it's doable for fall town meeting um with all of these outstanding questions with us only having two more meetings between now I think the approach to take is to get the process started and see if we have time I mean you know if this is going to be task force based yeah so after tonight the board meets July July 10th you want to maybe plan on you coming back on July 10th sure sure let's see where we are you know there there was a time I don't think we're in that mode anymore where you didn't do bylaws zoning bylaws in Springtown meeting because the budget was taking up too much of the time but I see a bunch of those now anyway so Spring Town meeting would be fine and and just just FYI I I'm starting a lot of travel beginning about mid August so uh I would probably not be around if if there were a lot of last minute stuff going on as I said I'm in no particular urgent rush to get this on the found fall town meeting warrant right so you but I but I feel like all you know these things take a long time and so the best thing to do it point I think is to start yeah and yeah I think we should start now but I don't think we should be shooting for fall town meeting okay because I think that's completely unrealistic given the timeline I heard you say that already okay so I should plan to come back at your next meeting yeah yeah and maybe between now and then we could think about um putting together a task force and seeing if people want to volunteer to be on the task force from this group and or um who else we think should be included I think certainly police would be a good one and maybe David CBA um and DPW have yeah c yeah CBA not zba but C The chuner Business Association oh CBA and zba probably um and then you know I what I'm imagining is one or two meetings where this task force is sitting down and we're like going through line by line and like and finding finding common ground and finding something that we're all all those stakeholders have have a consensus of approval on and that should make your job easier yeah yep and meanwhile Evan if you could find out from Council about the um yep legal Logistics yeah and and also if you Evan if you want to forward the draft that I've sent and yeah we'll be that I I'll in the meantime I'll try to reach out to uh The Business Association and maybe some uh DPW and and see where their stand is I've had some discussions with DPW about the lights that we've got it's always been pretty cordial um and um you know the thing about LEDs the ones that we have they're a decade old and and this applies to a lot of businesses and so even though LEDs last a long time they will need to be replaced at some point in the not distant future and so we'll capture them then you know and maybe the sunset timetable needs to be 10 years instead of five years and this is I'm you know I'm just going from what my hip tells me all right well thank you very much for your time and consideration and um Evan has my contact information if you want to reach me with anything specifically thank you thank you okay we still have a little bit of time before the meeting and we've got worked through our um work session task so I wonder if we should maybe do the minutes yep out of order sure um I don't see any attach no minutes minutes you can do um you can do public input or that's 7: p.m. you can do I don't think we should on updates if you want oh we could do L on updates um okay should we take that around I have um o on just a brief update from Carl the chair of the conservation sent me a text email this morning saying that um with regards to 10 hildr I meant to send it around and I apologize I didn't um that you want to bring that up as part of 10 Hildreth well that's fine that's fine yeah that's probably the place for um so other than that anyone else have le on updates to bring um I've got a short update from concom um the only real uh issue related to us is uh they talked about ten hildr um which we'll get updates on tonight and then their July calendar they're not meeting on the 23rd um but they will be meeting on July 9th so um they're meeting the same weeks we are for the summer and you know I we made our calendar based on the premise that we didn't think we had an overwhelming amount of things that we needed to address in the summer months and if that should require revisiting I'm not opposed to having a short meeting the alternative time but I mean I think for now we should leave it as it is but if everyone keep that in the back of your mind that there's a possibility we could convene if we are needed to um Paul anything there was an open house for the open space and Recreation committee plan um at the senior center M um went well I think overall met a lot of different uh groups like The Bicycle uh the guys that run the B uh bike track in Murphy field area mhm met them bunch of there quite a few vendors showed up could have been a little uh better attended I think but it was an attempt anyway I attended a community preservation committee meeting last Tuesday evening on the 18th and uh the the agenda was pretty brief um I won't go through it but um Cher Housing Authority executive director David hederson gave a um gave us a lot of information on affordable housing projects that he has planned very similar to what he gave tonight so I won't repeat that but that was one of the main topics uh master master plan is meeting tomorrow night so nothing to report tonight Mike Walsh uh no update uh she there she's still on Zoom maybe I got too late it's hard 1 in the morning um so I attended the afford the affordable housing Advisory Board um and we also had an update from David from W tonight's update was germinated um I don't really do much else that I was there for Evan would you agree yeah they're in the process of um doing this housing plan yeah updating the housing production plan working with Nim Cog on The Matrix updating the Matrix of recommendations there'll be some engagement with the planning board on that uh as well as master plan implementation um I think the August or September meeting of Master Plan implementation we'll have uh planning board's updates on the uh recommendations within the master plan we'll put that on the agenda um not directly related to Hab but as some of you have been following the the housing Bond bill with the adus uh my understanding is that that's likely to be passed uh prior to the end of the summer session um it's not clear to me when that becomes effective but let's assume it's 90 days um after ws and then my understanding is it allows towns to adopt reasonable regulation which presumes that towns have the ability to amend or revise uh or adopt new zoning so while that wouldn't be for fall town meeting uh it could certainly be applicable for a special town meeting between fall and spring I'll have to see what the what the legal um Logistics are once everything um you know settles but there'll likely be a there'll likely be similar zoning there'll likely be regulations that are issued that take some time and there'll likely be likely be deadlines but from what I understand also is they shot they took out any kind of um fee like um additional so that was a separate provision and they took that out yeah right miss that so the there was a provision in the can you explain it better it was a um real estate local real estate fee a fee so you could at least recoup some money back and they took that out right basically right yeah that's that's been eliminated so they still kept in it doesn't have to be that provision the real estate uh provision the real estate I guess tax local tax provision uh was reported that there was Heavy lobbying and the the real estate lobbyist basically picked that particular provision vision and kind of let the other ones go the one little clawback that we had right shocker was a bunch of communities I think particularly like in an Tucket was trying to do home rule petitions over the years um and then the state uh the governor's office you know introduced this as a proposed state state law um but it didn't it didn't make it Evan speaking of MBTA um zoning have we heard back from the state on the night day have not heard back okay um not surprised um but we I'm sure we definitely will yeah we need to just keep keep reminding ourselves that we need to do that re-engagement you know SE whatever September October timeline yeah I just didn't know if we heard back from the review ini review y we expecting to hear again within 90 days or do we not have any kind of uh the AG's view takes place within 90 days was still well within that 90day time frame MH and that's what you were referring to Y okay okay um so it being 7 o' um we will open the regular um chancelor planning board meeting of June 26th again this will be being taking place over Zoom as well as um live and should the zoom go down we'll do our best to make that work but the meeting will continue um presuming we have a quorum still and um also the meeting is being recorded by tele media um and we have a couple members on um Zoom Anita tanini and Mike Walsh and Joel Luna are all on Zoom um and so we'll be doing roll call um votes for any voting that's that we need to do um so we're going to open with public input um this will be pertaining to um issues that are within our jurisdiction but which are not on tonight's agenda um and not the subject of a pending public hearing is there anyone who would like to speak during public input for anyone on the zoom no okay um next up we have 150 North Road first starting off with an anr request for endorsement of a three lot merger um assessor parcel ID map 50 block 208 lock Lots 2 three and N um we have someone here from North Road this is justr portion you want name address yeah start with that sure Chris fendon I live at um forgetting my address 438 Hill Avenue glenellen Illinois uh 60137 um first item on the agenda here is our anr plan which uh follow suit with the site plan submitt that we'll talk about in a minute um this is three lots that were part of a 2022 subdivision uh as you mentioned combining Lots 2 3 and N uh kind of under that anr um law okay everyone had a chance to look through this anyone have any questions I've got a two questions okay can you point out where lot n is I could not find it at all so I think part of the confusion here is the way it was laid out this subdivision map the 2022 map wasn't what the the town's map it hadn't been updated yet so uh it's on that map it's sort of the front the two front lots and then it runs across can I point yeah so you have one two and then we're taking this is a whole lot I think you guys have the town has an easement for storm water here so we'll be cutting that leaving that as part of this lot with the seller retained portion and these three will be combined okay so on on this map it's lot one two and then that portion the weird shaped rectangular portion behind those two correct so they're labeled one two and three three is that back lot okay thank you and the rest of the lots are not changing at all right lot four is just taking that storm water portion that has the easement okay the agreement is with the seller so we can keep that intact well in no case is uh is a lot being reduced in its capability because it's a combination not a cut down so I think this is simply open and shut I don't think we even have any discretion here so take a motion I would move that we approve the anr for at 15 North Road excuse me this to join the lots appr to join the can we have public comment on that we approve that this is an anr I don't think we do we don't take public comment on an anr I don't believe normally you don't as an administrative [Music] item um if if if the board wants you can kind of combine it with the public hearing um but I uh that way you may get a better take the motion to if you want procedurally right I mean without without knowing what's being what the public wants to discuss right um that's one way for the board to just try to try to combine the two so that they're both related yeah um that's fair but I would point out that the the criteria for an anr correct are very much more limited than uh than the criteria that we'll be considering on the other item that is uh relative I think how we got to an an anr is the the is that's the issue yeah not the the other item relative to an anr is uh per state law you have 21 days from the date of submission it was submitted on June 6th so 21 days is tomorrow if it's not if if it qualifies for an anr endorsement which is lot area and Frontage yeah on a on a way that provides adequate access if it's not approved within 21 days it's constructively approved or the applicant can grant a an ention for the board to act so I think just for purposes of tonight I I would suggest that maybe combine the two M with the understanding that before we move away from uh 150 North Road we Circle back uh to to the anr vot on the anr okay I think that makes sense okay so then I will take a motion regard goinging the public hearing I move that we open the uh public hearing for 150 North Road Okay so regarding 150 North Road um Viking Development LLC is looking to construct a 16,200 ft Early Education facility with Associated site improvements the applicant requests site plan review per section 195-197 d40a of the zoning bylaw and any other zoning relief deemed necessary the site is located in RB residential Zone district and consists of approximately three Parcels identified as purple map parcel map ID map 50 block 208 Lots 239 and consists of approximately 3.52 Acres okay so I think we'll start then with a brief um presentation from you if that's okay yeah sounds great um so if you want in mind do you want me to controller who wants to how are we going to control I'll do it okay uh so if you scroll down a little bit we'll start with um just an intro on on who we are so my name is Chris fendon I'm the VP of real estate development with the gardener school um the garden school was was founded in 2004 we were based out of Franklin Tennessee originally we were established with schools in Tennessee Ohio and Kentucky as we've grown we've established schools in Illinois Minnesota Colorado DC and Virginia and now we've looked to enter the Massachusetts Market the next couple slides I'm going to go over just a couple of key points on what kind of separates us from other providers the first one is the academic Focus um we have age appropriate classrooms we we furnish each with toys suitable for children of that age uh we also have standardized and comprehensive curriculums we work with uh the uh industry leader McGrath Hill in establishing those working for age appropriate from infinite toddler all the way to 234 all the way to prek um and then each one of our teachers is required to have a four year four-year degree and is certified to State levels as well as first aid CPR all of that uh the next item is enrichment while we have the academic standard we also have enrichments every one of our schools has an enrichment studio um it doubles as our cafeteria and all that but when it's not in use uh we hold programs Foreign Language Dance Yoga karate um all those items are available to the students as well kind of on a seasonal basis we do we switch them up uh with that we've also in the last few years started incorporating a steam lab um for those that don't know science technology engineering arts and math is the acronym there um it's kind of like a a science lab type of setup uh kind of gets you going in in that um Math and Science aspect experiments water tables uh things like that the last one the biggest one for for parents when looking to enroll is Safety and Security we do background checks on all our employees uh we've got a closed circuit uh camera and monitoring system in every classroom and at every exit uh we have a silent alarm sstem system tied into our into our school so at any time if the need arises we can alert local emergency services and then the last one uh two- tiered entry code system uh we typically have two front doors kind of an entry vable that's uh key uh coded and then a second one at the at the lobby uh that's specific to each parent typically a seven-digit code like a phone number followed by a four-digit pin uh so very safe and secure that's kind of the number one emphasis in priority uh this one here is facilities the main reason I included this one is is just that last little bit because I know it's going to be a topic tonight uh Tastefully designed to blend into the community you can see here in these pictures that no school is exactly the same we take into consideration the region and area in which we're building the types of materials that are used in those areas and we incorporate them and then the last one here just kind of reiterates what I said before uh this lists everywhere that we are located currently I think it equates to seven or eight states it equals 36 Schools open today uh with a a map for growth over the next few years that includes uh schools in Massachusetts um from there I'll introduce uh L to Stephano with bowler engineering he's our civil engineer and we'll talk over the site uh good evening members of the board for the record Luke Toano bowler engineering South bro Massachusetts what I'd like to do is give a high level overview of what the actual project is that's proposed here as noted and I'm sure uh you're all very familiar with the property 150 North Road uh the site under its existing condition contains about an 1100 squ ft structure uh that would be removed along with all utilities and any other apperance associated with that uh including uh two access points that that lot currently has there are uh two driveways to that existing property off of North Road one on the north side of the site and one on the south side or the right and the left if you're looking at it in plan view uh under the proposed condition uh the applicant is looking to construct a roughly 16,000 square foot Early Education facility with a roughly 7 I'm sorry 50 700 squ ft Turf playground on the west side of the building or the backside opposite North Road uh that facility would be serviced by 50 parking spaces as well as a single full movement curb cut off a North Road and by full movement all I mean is that it'll be a exit and an entrance together uh the site as you could see from the rendering has been designed to maintain green space to the greatest extent possible we are also well aware of our Butters to the north and south and we've taken steps to provide screening vegetative screening uh to those AB Butters uh we are proposing all underground utilities all of which would come from North Road uh there is an existing water line that goes out to the side street that would be removed as part of the project that's shown on the demolition plan uh and then one of the issues that we know is always a concern is storm water management so if you've had an opportunity to review the plans uh we've taken great care in providing a very comprehensive storm water management design that not only pre-treat but infiltrates groundwater to the greatest extent possible and if you've seen uh that design ultimately results in a net decrease not only in runoff rates but volume to the North Road drainage system under all design storms up to and including the 100-year event so again it's a pretty comprehensive system consisting of deep sump catch basins with oil water hoods uh we have underground infiltration systems with uh pre-treatment systems uh and at the roadway we're proposing a couple of catch basins that will collect and ultimately pre-treat runoff that makes its way to the bottom of the driveway prior to its uh entrance into the North Road drainage system uh I mentioned Landscaping before uh under the proposed plan uh they are looking to install over 220 different types of plantings throughout the site that would include canopy trees evergreen trees various shrubs and various ground plantings uh and lastly what I'd like to touch on is the lighting uh if you've had an opportunity to look at the lighting plan we've designed a lighting design that provides light where we need it which is within the parking areas and the driveway and within the walkways uh associated with the development and not anywhere else we have zero light trespass at all of our property lines so we're not looking to have light spill over onto our abutters land or into uh the abing right of way as well what I'd like to do now uh is turn it over to Dan with vaness to talk a little bit about traffic thank you very much uh for the record my name is Daniel lva I'm a traffic engineer with vassan Associates 35 New England Business Center Drive in Andover Mass uh we are the traffic consultants for the project and I'm just going to kind of give you a hopefully brief high level overview of the full and comprehensive uh Transportation impact assessment or traffic study we prepared for the project um so the TR study itself was prepared in consultation with the town of chelsford um and in accordance with uh mot standards and the uh standards of the uh Transportation Planning and traffic engineering professions um kind of the summary of the traffic study itself in one sentence would be that uh overall the project is not expected to result in any significant uh impacts to either motorist delays or uh vehicle queuing within the study area acknowledging that one there are some existing uh deficiencies within the study area and two noting that there will be um some uh offsite improvements that are proposed as a part of this development uh but I'll touch on those later um there were no apparent safety deficiencies noted had any of these studies area intersections based on a review of mass do crash data and then uh lastly also related to safety the proposed site driveway location uh currently affords or can be made to um have uh the recommended minimum sight distances for the driveway to function safely and efficiently next slide please um so the study area that we assessed as a part of this project was the project side driveway along along uh Route 4 as well as the nearby uh Wigan Street uh intersection that is unsignalized it's under stop control then to the north and south on of the project site on Route four we looked at the first major signalized um intersection those being route four at Parkers Road and Davis Street to the North and then to the South um with Dalton road which is technically two intersections there in offset but the signal there operates as one um signal so we refer to it as one intersection uh we completed traffic counts in March of 2024 that form the basis of our uh analysis and based on those March counts Route 4 itself um carries approximately 20,000 vehicle trips over the course of an average day so over 24 hours with around, 1500 to, 1600 uh Vehicles during each of the uh peak hours your commuter peak hours during your morning and during your evening periods uh you go to the next slide uh then the second part of the study was we estimated the uh traffic that is expected to be generated by this project we used data published by the uh It or The Institute of Transportation Engineers uh which is the standard for uh the traffic engineering professions and the preparation of these reports um more specifically their daycare center land use code and we base it off a 95 students which is the uh predicted maximum enrollment of this 195 sorry um which is the predicted maximum enrollment of this facility um and then based on that uh variable we estimate that the project is expected to generate a little under 800 vehicle trips and it's important to note that a trip is a one-way trip so a parent coming in uh dropping off a child in the morning count as one trip that same parent leaving to go to work and continue on with the rest of the day count as another trip so it's 800 vehicle trips but around about 400 vehicles um and then you can make that same comparison same breakdown for the weekday morning and weekday uh evening peak hours as well where we anticipate anywhere between 130 to 140 vehicle trips or 70 Vehicles which is a little over one vehicle every minute um during those peak hours and that's just going into or out of the site as soon as we disperse that traffic away from the project site it gets less and less um we then took those uh expected trips and disperse them as I just said to the uh study area mainly on uh Route 4 going north up to Route 3 or South down to 495 it was about 80 to 90% of the uh traffic we expect to use route four as it is the main arterial um roadway in the area um then we overlaid that project generated traffic onto our no build condition as if the project wasn't built uh then compared the analyses um of operating conditions there and we found that at a maximum which was only on one movement at one uh intersection during one time period the project was expected to materially increase traffic by up to four vehicles which was at the uh Route 4 Parkers Road uh Davis Street intersection at all of the other study area intersections and at all of the other movements it was either zero one or two uh Vehicles so if there's three or four vehicles in front of you there now there's going to be four or five in the future then based on that uh analysis that um provided uh background for our recommendations uh we had recommendations both relating to site access and circulation which are mainly related to driveway wids the widths behind parking aisles things like that um the two most important recommendations would be the last two making sure that any vegetation that exists along uh route four within the site triangle areas of the project site driveway um should be trimmed and maintained so as to not restrict sight lines and then there is an existing stone wall um out there that should be moved or modified such that once again it does not um inhibit sight lines and then the last slide if you will uh are the offsite recommendations that we recommend um and that the applicant is willing to uh implement the uh first and kind of main one being at the route for uh Davis Road Parkers Road intersection which was that intersection where we anticipated uh that project generator traffic would increase by up to four um Vehicles we recommend the implementation of an optimal traffic signal timing and phasing plan and based on our uh analysis there exists a significant amount of improvement that can be done through just that uh retiming such that the signal is expected to operate um better than the no build condition is if the project didn't get built so even with the addition of project uh related traffic that retiming is expected to bring it uh back Beyond um that no build condition and that it's not written up there um but at the um request of the police department the alant is also willing to install what's known as an rrfb A rectangular rapid flashing Beacon which are the uh two sign posts on either side of the road where a pedestrian can go up and hit a button and the lights start to flash there signs pointing to the crosswalk um at the uh route four wigin Street um intersection right by the project side driveway um and another that was a little lengthy but and unless anyone else on the development team has anything else uh we're more than happy to answer any questions that the board might have thank you so I guess I have a quick question so are you saying the current light is so not optimally set that by resetting it with increased traffic it'll be better traffic flow than it is currently not necessarily better than it is now so as a part of the study we generate kind of three conditions there's the existing condition then seven years in the future that's our no build condition that's the mass doot standard is we go seven years for our no build then our build is the no build plus the project generated traffic so with the retiming we get back towards existing um but it's better than the no build condition sense I think they've messed with the timing on those lights a they've tweaked those lights the best they can be right Evan am I right on this it's a we have a lot of lights on roof for they've been tweaked a lot of times I don't think you're getting any improvement from what has been done previously all I can say is based on our analysis based on the volumes that we went out and measured we went out and we timed the intersection we went out and we counted the cars out there and based on both of those facts and those findings hour analysis it appears that there is room for improvement okay I've got a question on the it numbers that you've used um did you say that the it numbers were specifically for 195 students yes okay and so you've got 70 Vehicles dropping off 195 students this is a very common question so this is just for the peak hour yep for the peak hour of the roadway and peak hour of the facility which is 7 to n for the roadway I can speak to I can't speak to for the um I don't know what your PE hour was but so for drop off and pickup operations there is no set drop off no set pickup our typical windows were open 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. we see typical drop off occur between 7:00 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. and then pick up typically sometime between 3:30 and 6:00 p.m. right and that's usually during Peak traffic hours correct but what he's established is a peak hour so you're seeing 70 trips in one hour our drop off occurs in 2 and a half hours so you know double that number you're pretty close to our students I could spit facts that 23% are siblings so that reduces number of trips uh staff tend to take public transit or carpool or even Uber these days so it's not an equal number okay 7 to8 a.m. is the uh peak hour of the roadway 7 eight yeah when when you did your traffic study was it a school day it was uh yes short answer is yes it was March you were on the road when it was a school day you okay okay just checking uh I got a question um initially I directed to Evan uh uh this project appears to fall under the do Amendment my understanding is that the Dover amendment is going to prude to a significant degree our consideration of traffic can you V can you verify that um I would suggest you have the uh ability to do a typical traffic review and and and I and I appla applaud these guys for for having presented that so the the typical uh technical review peer review engagement um uh iterations I think as well within your Authority uh however the notion that um that that would be used solely and singularly as a reason for denial yeah it's probably I would strongly caution the board on that what about um certainly uh as within a site plan in a in a Dover you know trying to work out reasonable mitigation and I think you're hearing some of that uh quickly from the applicant I would encourage the board I think the applicant has provided some um significant um background data to support their uh existing operations but I would encourage the board to continue to try to pursue that information um you know the goal being the do Amendment affords legal protections to certain uses um and the legal threshold for the court upholding a denial is it's a very high threshold however it doesn't preclude our due diligence absolutely absolutely and you'll be you'll be doing the same thing liit us at the other end of the you'll be doing the same thing with storm water and lighting and Landscaping and all your other typical reviews those those those are fair game storm waterer others regardless and as the board knows I mean traffic is it's it's difficult when you're engaging with with new a new neighborhood bringing everybody up to speed and understanding um all the technical alties that are being discussed but I think it's important for the the board this is a new use I can't remember the last time the town or the board has dealt with a um educational use um the most recent one that I'm aware of is the transition of um the church around the corner to a daycare um and that that was unique in of itself it wasn't a groundup development but this you know this will take some time and I think the board working with the applicant um you'll have to go through typical technical review who who Who's in charge of the timing on the lights that's a state road is that well the it we start with the town um but ultimately it it may be owned by the state but the town has a lot of influence in working with the applicant and leveraging this process um to get the get the lights optimized and I think that's what you're hearing from from the consultant there's a there's an opportunity under existing conditions never mind proposed conditions to optimize it but that's a process that the Town engages with with Mast doot if needed everybody drives that road we notice we notice when they change what they're doing and if they changed it many times that's a very busy intersection the whole road yeah yeah in the road yeah getting off 495 the state has control of that and they're letting them cut through TR I believe that specific intersection that we're referring to the Parker staff intersection is not under Mass UT control it's entirely town-owned um so that's a benefit we we'll confirm that put back at at your next meeting and something I will also say is we would definitely welcome the uh peer review process it's always good to get another set of eyes on anything um that is done make sure that everything we've done is up to scratch up with standards so we would definitely welcome that thank you um have any additional questions for the applicant Mike you look like you're gearing enough to ask a question well I just I'm just trying to understand the the do Amendment cuz I was looking through the zoning bylaws here and I is this an ex is exempt yeah I provided a couple attachments on the agenda yeah a very high level um if the board would like uh we can invite um cman and paage New Town Council to your next meeting and they can maybe uh uh answer questions and provide some additional um perspective over Amendment 101 I mean the point being is is I think those questions need to be answered so everyone has a full understanding as to kind of what are the uh the guard rails rather than um explore topics or ideas that maybe are less worthwhile than others yeah I was going to suggest that okay it's just I like the idea of the uh the project I think it's the worst location on North Road that is a tough Street dangerous yeah yeah so it's too it's unfortunate that we're not going to be able to go through the tra traffic but see this goes that's not true we can you can go through the traffic well we can 129 would be perfect did the the applicant did the town work with you on this location no this did Business Development talk to you at all or no this proba ped the worst there were a couple members uh of the planning board that were invited to participate or sit in on a technical review committee meeting took place a couple months ago um but like most projects this this shows up uh with a proponent who has a specific parcel with a specific proposal and they were able to purchase that for $35,000 did I read that deed right that was behind oh behind the house that was that okay we have not okay but that that was okay um so 129 would be a great location that's all I'm going to say and there's lots out there yeah that's if someone brought me a site sure I would absolutely consider um so can we put Town Council on the agenda for the I have that an invite okay thank you um all right any more questions for the can can you guys hear me yeah yeah I I have a couple of questions um I also agree with Mike Walsh um I've got a little bit of concern that um we're tearing down a residential home when all we get is bashed by the state about how we don't have housing and we're putting up um while I like the idea of a daycare um we're replacing housing which we keep on hearing we don't have enough of with something industrial where we have a whole bunch of space elsewhere in town I really don't think this is a good idea but I do have a couple of questions for the applicant they mentioned they just came into the state do they have other locations in the state bra tree and Cambridge we currently have three locations under construction with the F two of them said to open at the end of the year so none open at this time and did you buy sorry did you buy residential property or did you utilize already industrial um areas two of the four are residential Zone properties including chord no I'm not counting chord in that so three of the five uh we're under construction in uh Cambridge that's mixed use that's at the bottom of apartment building um brain sh is a commercial site uh Dam and wayth are residential um wayth is a very similar site to this one we tore down down in Old home um on a uh major thoroughfare that is Zone residential but sees heavy traffic okay that's all I have thank you Joel anyone else okay I don't have any questions but I would like to maybe discuss starting a peer review yeah this week for the traffic for traffic storm water and traffic storm water I think was reviewed by DPW um I would I would suggest before you contemplate doing a peer review of sto M beginning a you know read the DPW letter maybe even invite them in if before you contemplated pursuing um peer review on stal M but on traffic are you comfortable using beta mhm okay good can we have the DPW come in we can invite them we can invite them um many houses on the other side of North Road have water in their basement if not all um you know I know a lot of people live in the neighborhood that's a lot of impervious they have what I'm sorry water in their basement already sure I I I can they can explain their CS to to you to help you understand that we're we should be improving runoff from this property yeah during the technical review meeting I think it was mentioned that the the neighborhood um has flooding issues so I believe what you heard presented tonight sounded like you may have Revisited your calc drainage proposal was based upon the that comment and it sounds like DPW did their review and then I don't recall them identifying any there were some issues with the calculations I can certainly ask DPW um to what extent did they review neighborhood uh flooding issues as part of their as part of their review um and I can certainly um extend the invitation for them to attend an upcoming planning board meeting great further engage for the traffic study Evan I would like to have a few Focus areas for the peer reviewer um the first one is all of those side street intersections are major feeder um intersections from pretty significantly sized neighborhoods earland the ones that are dead end deadend on the dead end side streets yeah all of those side streets are cut through yeah but what do you what what do you want them what do you want I would like to see if there's some if those should be included and if if the data is not there to include it okay um potentially recommend additional study additional study areas I mean it's already impossible to make a left turn after you can't take a left turn you have to go right you have to go right go down turn around come back everybody know so to be fair to that point first off I'm not coming here to upset anybody we're looking to be neighbors in this community the people we're serving are people in this community they're going to know the traffic pattern they're going to understand what they need to to do to get in and out of the site while it's a full movement access it doesn't necessarily mean people are going to look at it and say I got to get left out of here they're going to know they maybe can't in the afternoon peak hour so I understand the point but to to some extent did you watch the other daycare let out at all I have not I have not been there at for that okay you should probably take a look at that sure I lived right next door to it the the other areas um the timing of the light um because it might be seasonally affected I'm wondering if if the peer reviewer might recommend periodic um checks on that timing as well um for some period of time and and then the other question I would have for the peer Reviewer is while and we saw this with one of the other projects that we had um actually um hildr when we did that traffic study while the typical Peak period is 1 hour it might be worth extending that um to a broader Peak period instead of a peak hour um and see what the impact is there because the drop offs for daycares are pretty cyclic in the morning and and evening so matching the traffic analysis to the peak period of the daycare they also correlate with the school bus yep if I can just address that last comment so when we do traffic studies kind of like also when you think of Designing a building you want to have a factor of safety in there right you want to design and be conservative to the point where say things are as bad as you uh think that they might be worry they might be right so we do that as a part of traffic studies so to that final comment we look at a peak period on the roadway then determine the peak hour of the roadway during that Peak period that in the case of Route 4 was 7 to 8:00 a.m. then we also look at the it data and go okay BAS B on the peak hour of the project the peak hour of the daycare this is how much uh traffic it's going to generate that may not actually coincide with the peak of the roadway but for the traffic study we assume that it does once again assume that conservative that safe highest worst case scenario so in all likelihood that doesn't occur right there's a 2 and 1 half hour uh up drop off period there's a chance that some of it overlaps or that none of it overlaps but for the purposes of the traffic study for the purposes of the conservative assessment we assumed that they both uh overlapped creating the worst case scenario meaning that if we look at anything outside of that worst case scenario there's going to be less cars less delays less queuing and the the intersections are going to operate better just a comment Maybe that's why I want the peer review to take a look at it totally understand yeah we got a good one okay um so then I think we'll want to take some public comment to the public for comment if you could make an effort um there's a lot of people waiting to talk um if you guys could make an effort to try not to repeat yourselves and to state your name and address and um hopefully we can be um collaborative so my husband and I um G Garth and El Lane Brown we reside at 170 North Road we're approximately three houses away from the proposed proposed site on the same side where longtime residents of the town have lived there for 42 years um during that time we've seen many and experienced many changes to the street and the landscape of the Town one of the only times that you really can get out onto the road during the Fourth of July parade um safest time the real the safest time is is during the Fourth of July parade um we have also experienced ourselves to accidents on North Road in the past nine years one trying to turn left into our own driveway we were stopped waiting for traffic who was heading south um to clear so we could turn left into the driveway we were rear ended because the traffic does not stop that was on a Sunday morning when there was not a lot of traffic the other one was going Southbound traffic was going in both directions and a car came out of a side street and sideswiped us because they were trying to make a leftand turn um and those are the only two accidents we've had in that time so as they say most accidents happen within a mile of your house um we both of my husband and I we have concerns and objections regarding the proposed merging of the three uh residential sites together which would then lead to the building of the Early Education facility at 150 North Road we request that the planning board members clearly carefully review the following the burden on the existing infrastructure for the town the sore plant processing issue that the town currently exists the amount of storm water runoff based on the size of the facility and the parking lots that's going to go down into the street and possibly impact the neighborhood additional traffic burden to an already congested area especially leftand turns in and out of the facility just as a note today school is not in session traffic from backed up from Park Hurston North was backed up past our house starting at 3:50 p.m. school is not in session there were no buses this is an ongoing occurrence it starts around 3:45 3:30 sometimes when school is in session goes all the way until 6 615 6:30 depending on if something's going on at the high school or McCarthy um and that's a normal occurrence um we also want you to take note and also read the police department's concern regarding the traffic on that road because they are very much aware of it since they have to travel down that road um all the time we also want to look at the prop the proposed merging the sites which would change the character and nature of the residential neighborhood the impact to existing foot traffic there are a lot of school children who travel on those sidewalks to and from going up to McCarthy and the high school both um to and from school there is adults children elderly who walk on the sidewalk and bike riders who go down there on a regular basis the impact of noise level in the residential neighborhood that already has to contend with high noise traffic now we're going to have to even though we're going to have to contend with playground noise this will obviously occur when there will be about 30 children uh I would figure two classrooms is what I figured maybe 30 children out at a given time on their six th almost 6,000 ft playground that's going to impact the neighborhood already we already have to hear the traffic and the noise our bedroom window from our house is a direct line sight to where the front door and the playground will be so we know we're going to hear this on a regular basis I enjoy children I love them I watch my grandkids all the time but this will definitely preserve another impact I'm concerned and I would hope that the planning board would actually question why the developer has chosen this site when there are current vacancies on Route 129 and more attractive sites that could also accommodate the project and handle the traffic better and what benefit does this project bring to the town if it's placed in the proposed location how's it going my name is uh Michael Jo Joya I live at 147 North Road uh I met quite a few of you I put together a petition against this project uh I'm up to 99 signatures over 5 2our periods um I believe that you guys should have been given the first 40 signatures um the issues that that's the issues I mainly tried to focus on were the traffic uh the safety issues regarding North road crossing it turning on it as everyone here has clearly experienced turning left on North Road uh it seems like you guys should maybe try it during peak hours uh just so that you can actually experience what we deal with trying to turn left do no there's no non- peak hours uh interfering with our peace and quiet enjoyment of our properties as previously stated with the playgrounds uh the development of such a large commercial facility within a residential neighborhood uh potential effects on our property values in the immediate immediate vicinity um you know North Road's already busy we're making it worse and on top of making it worse now we have a 16,000 ft building across the street uh I'm directly across the street from the proposed location uh and facility redundancy in the area there are over 15 facilities similar to this one excuse me within 3 miles of 150 North Road one of those includes a manual Church which I believe only runs on the weekend um there's the chip school right on dton road uh and chelsford also has a great Public School System uh I know that dton school offers kindergarten I'm not sure how much of a percentage of our kindergarten kids would end up in that school um I did prepare a longer uh version of what I wanted to say but we do have plenty of other people uh in regards of the the do amendment in chapter 40 the big section with the Dober Amendment and chapter 40 uh this is what chapter 40 States uh no zoning ordinance or bylaw in any town uh sh require special permit use expansion of existing structures for primary accessory incidental purpose operating a child care facility provided however that such land or structures may be subject to reasonable regulations concerning the bulk and bulk and height of the structures in determining yard sizes lot areas setback Open Spaces parking and building coverage uh I'm not sure how sticking a 16,000 ft School in the middle of a residential area is reasonable um in addition to everything else with the traffic I believe that sorry I I believe that the size what it's going to be use for where it is really puts this in an unreasonable set and it is on the burden of the developer and the owner to prove that if the board decided that this was unreasonable to prove that it was a reasonable construction per the do Amendment and chapter 40 I see a little bit of confusion uh give me one second this is the Dober Amendment notably the burden will be on the applicant to prove that the regulation of its proposed religious or educational use is unreasonable I know that the courts aren't necessarily in favor of going against an educational facility um but I do believe that what is proposed in is unreasonable and the reason why I stopped you from voting on The joining of the three lots right right off the bat um I believe once the lots are joined it's not reasonable to stop them they have their three acres they have the space they have the lot area and I'm not sure if you could say it's reasonable once the lots are joined to stop a project of this nature of this size going on a lot of that size they're limited to a one lot space which I believe is reasonable uh given that most house sizes are probably up about a 2,000 squ foot footprint you know obviously two floors would get you your 4,000 uh so in comparison to the residential neighborhood the houses in the area being at a mo about the most of a 2,000t footprint with the 16,000 ft commercial development I don't see you can compare the two uh say that it's reasonable um and allow them to join the lots and build the structure in its proposed location thank you good afternoon I'm alexandrios to Wi in I'm sorry well to Wi in street I just to say two sentences my favorite place to to spend my time in my house house is my porch sitting on my porch most hours the most hours or outside my yard I'm witness what's going on every time every day I'm I'm going to say just this one above about the police emergency lights they go about the farest fire station uh trucks they go they must go about the ambulance this one is the worst met the worst met that's it I'm not B I know you do the best and the project is going to go anyway I don't say nothing else but the the traffic I'm Witnesses every day what's going on not the regular traffic the extra traffic the police who they go emergency so many times the police the fire station the ambulance three things thank you so much hello I'm uh Jason BTO live in five Wick Street um I just want to add you to the public sa safety aspect of it uh mostly cuz uh we have three kids been on the school buses still going on the school buses um their peak time is school's peak time you know and we already have had the bus driver you know have to hold kids from crossing the street because people don't stop anyways and if they're rushing to get their kid into a daycare because they're late for immediate work you know that's another issue you know to add to the you know add on you know and agree with the other Public Safety aspects of the ambulances and fire engines and cops is it's not just the chumford traffic there's Acton you know Westford other other towns it's a past major pass through getting from 495 area over to the low hospitals so it's a major major backup area that way so you know you know pass through area so you create more of a backup you create more of a public public safety issue and you know one final thing I want to add is you know they kind of cut off but there's a a pretty sharp curve right there on the the lower left coming out and it's unreasonable to say you know all the parents coming out will only take a right the people that have to go left we going to try to take a left yeah everybody who lives off off the feeder streets off of four knows there some times a day yeah I have to take a right and there's other times I go I go backtrack around and stuff but certain times a day you have to take a left and cross your fingers so you know it's waiting for an accident to happen so thank you hi I'm Mary Beth Ro mamino um I live on monw road I grew up on monw left own a house on monw as do some of my siblings I I'm sure you're professional engineering company um but in your when you did all of this you modeled didn't you do some modeling in this you take samples from a certain period of time compare them out when you're doing all this are there assumptions made to I'm sorry to you yeah I mean we all kind of chuckled because anybody that lives knows you can't get out of there in the morning you go the you just the traffic is a nightmare I think I I agree with everybody we have all this beautiful facility on 129 um available but my main thing here is the traffic study I'm curious about the what was used in that and the other thing is doesn't chensford have a sewer issue a capacity issue so I didn't hear that being addressed that 16,000 Square ft and that many kids is quite a challenge on the sewer and then the other thing is the size um gentleman kept going over size I totally agree with that the average um daycare center is um what the big ones uh um I don't know the names of they're about 10,000 square ft so that's you know that's a pretty significant increase over an average dayare Center and I I'm curious about even the prim row what the square footage is on that it's certainly not 16,000 Square ft by any means um so those just living on monw it's a challenge if I speak real quick go right ahead thank you I appreciate it I just you kind of want to address something because it's come up a bunch and it will continue to come up a bunch I'm not here before you saying there's not existing traffic problems out there right I would never say that just the pure volume I mentioned earlier 20,000 cars over the course of the whole day right that's a lot of traffic so I'm not saying that there's not existing deficiencies out there I'm not saying that it's not difficult or near impossible to take a left at certain time periods right but what I am saying is that the impact of this project onto the study area acknowledging that those existing deficiencies exist is going to be minimal that's kind of the the outcome of the traffic study that's the outcome of our analysis we're not saying the problems don't exist we're saying that the impacts of this project is going to be minimal and further specifically at that one uh intersection we've heard mentioned where there's big backups and where we showed the largest increase in vehicle queuing as a part of this project The Parkers Road intersection through that uh retiming we are proposing to improve conditions there so we are more than mitigating the impact of this project so that's just something that's that's kind of the big point of my presentation of the traffic study thank you Wally Armstrong nine Osborne Lane we are a director of butter to this uh our property is right here with the north arrow is so being on top of that we also will about going up Charles way where Mr Sheen has proposals for other houses up there and I will stop by saying this was quite the surprise and I'm kind of nervous about where the other surprises come in going all the way up Char's way especially taking property and trying to come combine them buying a piece of property to combine them it certainly doesn't really bode well for the neighborhood and I don't think it would be appreciated if one of us went to his neighborhood and tried the same thing so we'll start there coming down of uh our driveway coming down Village View we have to take lefts and rights and if nobody's been down Village View it's a steep hill that comes down there is a hill that was just mentioned and it crowns and it comes down so the worst time is when there's traffic flow going left or right cuz people do not slow down coming down that Hill you take your life in your hands taking a left but even getting out for a right and when cars are coming down you cannot just take a right it's just not that readily accessible you're working your way in I drive a big truck and it's very comfortable because I got to fight my way in just most times coming through the the road at Dalton Road uh excuse me not Dalton road but pist and Davis that we talk about was just redesigned several years ago we just finished construction on that it doesn't get any better it gets an F rating and why when you look at it you have traffic coming in from L that's cutting through to get to Route 495 you have traffic coming up and down Route 4 getting back and forth from Route three and 495 and even today a gentleman that I work for I work with lives in Albany New York New York and he saids don't you live right off the North Road and I said yes I do he goes That's How ways takes me all the time to get from 495 to rout three or route three back so we've already endured and you look at the license plates that come up and down where you're sitting trying to get out we've endured a lot of traffic there of immediate concern is right where this driveway is going to be when you look at any traffic flow going through or any flow in anything is when you put a bend in something and you can see right here we have a Bend here and this traffic has got to come down and find sight lines to get in and out of this street people that want to go left and right Wigan street is across the way it's going to be a disaster coming in and out couple that that you have 50 parking spots up on top of the 50 parking spots up on top there's 32 teachers administrators over there that only leaves about 16 spots now all these little shining faces that you threw up there instead of coming in I don't see any of them getting out of the car and walking in themselves that means Mom and Dad have to park run them in and there's not enough parking up there so that is a constant bottleneck that's going to hit that one area it's easy to disperse the traffic over a one mile Lane anytime you do that it's going to flow better that's easy to understand when you push traffic and all that into one confluence and coming off of North Road there's 14 streets only one shown on the proposal but there's 14 streets coming off all of which coming out of the neighborhoods and some of them will cut into other neighborhoods in the Westland section but all of them have their kids coming down the hill in the bus route picks them up so try that on a Tuesday morning trying to get to work every bus is stopping picking kids up so there's a lot of safety concerns you get kids standing out there you've got now Crossing traffic you do not have good flows whether it's at 20 M an hour or it's at a very slow stop so all of that all combined becomes a major issue my other issue here and concern is what happens when this building doesn't work couple years down the road for whatever reason as we heard there's a number of schools in the area for whatever reason it goes on now you have a residential neighborhood with a commercial building in it what what's the ReUse for this you're kind of stuck with a white elephant now and where do we go so I think from a due diligence or responsibility standpoint there are a bunch of buildings as we've heard we're crying for for residential homes in the town places for people to live there's plenty of commercial buildings that are available plenty of land that's available to do that so outside of other things being an AB lighting interestingly enough we heard a great presentation tonight about lighting but now all of a sudden you're going to have 20ft stands and lighting spilling over and I know that the plan said and I like that that it's not into the rways of the the about as lighting is lighting as we heard earlier it does make its way other places noise makes its way other places original thought as I started was going to be houses I saw Mr sheen on it I'm all in favor of that houses the houses it's his property do it but to put a school in I think it's just the wrong decision as we look at it so thank you I'm sorry can I respond to some of the items um let's see if there's anyone else who wants to speak first like to so I know he came back up and mentioned uh that he believes that traffic is going to get better why doesn't chumford Police Department agree with that it's right in their report that they attached uh to the chompster website um just a small touch on that uh following up on the lighting can we pull the lighting plan up is it under site plans separate lighting oh the first exhibit several Pages down while we're looking for that um I also noticed that in the traffic report that the accident count was what 26 on the whole street over five years um and just this year I think in the last within two months there's been three accidents outside of my house uh pretty aware of this CU typically chumford Police Department drives them in front of my driveway uh on top of that a dog was just hit and killed a few weeks ago on North Road right across the street at 140 North Road um I believe if the previous owner of 140 North Road was still the owner of that property instead of the now investor and hael they would have been here tonight to attest against this project as well we have the lighting so we have poite poite are these are these Ballers or Ps here on the walkway one two three there's a to total of uh I think it's you have 14 total pole lights the ones that you're pointing to along the sidewalk are decorative 12T High lights okay so we're at an increased elevation you have two more lights here you have another light here uh so at the increased elevation all four of my bedrooms face North Road that's terrible what's going to be the plan with the lights so that we shutting them off when you guys are Clos closed if you're shutting them off when you guys are closed what's going to keep people from going up into the parking lot again with a manual church I know that daily the lights on 24 uh all night because they were having issues with people going to the parking lot and doing Mischief things uh doing donuts and whatnot while it was dark so even if we hear from them that they're going to shut the lights off at closing what happens when people are going up there and doing things they're not supposed to be within the now vacant parking lot which is directly behind uh the Armstrongs um and I feel as if leaving them on all night definitely infringes on our right to quiet enjoyment of our properties we're going to have lights shining in our bedrooms at all hours at the night can we pull up the satellite image where's that uh well you had your site rendering your site rendering on a satellite image and it showed North r one that's already been up is that rendering in it uh it was part it was on the head header page this one here uh doesn't show the whole street if you go to our side plan he's talking about the image on the cover sheet yeah okay this one here sir yes this one here so that as it was stated with the bends that's coming across here no matter what you do taking a left out of here is going to create a safety concern I've already had someone driving in my yard what's going to happen when this person comes out blocks the traffic coming this way to take the left can't see the guy coming around here pulls their Hood out and this person tries to go around them and drives into my house I'm this I'm the owner of this property here I've already had someone drive into the yard it's a huge safety concern although it's very unlikely it's not impossible all it takes is one little Hood to poke out instead of driving into them they do a little swerve and they're in a bedroom or snow or snow I mean not too concerned about the snow uh more so just that surprise car coming out and this guy trying to go around him um in gathering my signatures going continuing with safety uh I had to cross North Road a long quite a few times going door to door out of all those times I crossed North Road only one person stopped to let me go that one person was a $100,000 BMW that was almost immediately rare ended every single time someone stops at that crosswalk they almost get rear ended the police department's recommendation is flashing crosswalk lights they do help but they do not work up at the McCarthy school they're not going to work down here right across the street from this thing especially coming around the bend and people just look right at you you look at them right in the eyes and they keep on going just car after car after car after car uh and if local kids are doing this and going with their parents they're going to have to sit there and wait wait and wait and wait and wait on top of all the lefts blocking traffic it's just continuing issue with traffic and safety even if traffic isn't enough to say that this isn't a reasonable project I believe that the safety concerns that just exist in general in that specific location are enough to say that it isn't reasonable in this specific location like others have said there are so many vacant buildings on 129 uh that would be a lot safer I believe one of them is a 100,000 ft office building that's been vacant for years uh I have anything else is that it and one other thing I did want to touch on uh although they call themselves an educational facility they call themselves The Gardener School given chumford great education system given that chumford has a public preschool system to what degree will the educational part actually be involved in this type of facility I understand that that's hard to prove that's hard to say I know that you guys are going to say everyone here's on you know involved with an education program but you start taking kids at six weeks correct yeah um in addition to that 6 weeks is it we have 180 school day here is it 180 school day for those prek preschool kids in kindergarten if they're there or is it year round it's it's year round it's there's a summer camp but it's it's not look it's it's a daycare with a slight educational it's under the umbrella of ear likey just said slight the do amendment requires that the primary and dominant uh use of the facility has to be educational to be covered by the do Amendment and to be covered by chapter 40 so that's a question that would have to be resolved as well is what percentage of this school and can it be proven that that's the percentage of the school that's going to be used as an educational facility that would grant them protection under the do Amendment under chapter 40 would even allow them to pursue building on can I suggest that Council will review that this we ask them and this is going to be a state license facility is anybody who walks into the building department in town hall with a state with a state license for an educational use the conversation ends so if there going to be a state license educational facility or a daycare for that matter they a overuse we'll have Council review all of this my suggestion is you know we spent an hour and 15 minutes on it we can go all night if you want we have other items on the agenda yeah I think we got to initiate the traffic peer review subject matter experts Council comes in here subject matter experts better understanding of do amendments storm water review and and maybe next meeting you know spend some more time on on storm water okay that was it for me good plan good perfect than thank you okay you wanted to respond what do you want to do about the the anr ideally the applicant would Grant a a uh an extension on action um just so that everybody uh feels as though the the legal any legal questions can be can be answered by Council yeah we need can I can I so here's my thought on that I I I would prefer we vote on it I I think Bas the way it's it's written I I think before all of that we were entitled to those three lots I will add this I am not planning to record or execute those documents until I have a project there's no need for me to do it the seller won't let me do it it is strictly a a step in the process we we we um endorsed um making Char's way a public way with a plan in front of us showing us eight residential units there was no talk of this facility at all we need to talk to councel simple as that so if that's if that's the primary I submitted and now I'm up against a 21 day thing that I I didn't push no no if that's the primary inquiry with Council I can tell you that the theou that was signed um by the town with the property owner to facilitate the town meeting vote to accept it did not have any use restrictions so above and beyond the fact that the the story or the proposal has changed there weren't any legal restrictions so from from a legal review I don't think council is going to come back and say that there was a deed restriction or there was a a provision in theou that uh restricted changing a plan so this um took it out of subdivision regulation was it was an the charlesway was an anr and it's still an anr to create so do we have new Council right now do we have they'll start uh July 1st so you're not willing to give us more time I would say this setting up an antagonistic I understand it and that's where I you're putting me on the spot here so I'm running through my head on the spot all the business stuff I got on one side put you on the spot here what what are what are the what's the the next steps right right if I like if I offered the extension if you offered the extension then the the board next meets uh July 10th is it just ongoing there's no there's no reestablishment of 21 days anything like that no you could we could take it meeting by meeting if you wanted to so you could Grant an extension tonight to July 11th we meet on July ju 10th ideally Council will be here or council at a minimum can review that particular issue and then the board can uh can decide its vote on July 10th on the anr okay that's fine he have the right to make the decision well he could force the board to vote tonight and by by law the board doesn't really have any legal option other than to endorse it I have no problem extending it all right I mean I think that's the best the board's going to Le at least at a minimum we can the board can ask Council for its review I think that's fair because it sounds like there's some there's some questions from from the public and maybe from the board as to the procedure as to how it went from an eight an 8 unit anr to a now a five unit single family development okay but if we didn't make that a public way it wouldn't have wouldn't have uh the the anr would they couldn't have checked the box under well this anr is getting Frontage off of North Road not off of Charles oh it isor still would like to talk to counil you want a a motion to continue to July 10th I will make that motion continue to Second all right all in favor need to do a roll call we have members on Zoom yep uh Mike R back hi John hi Paul hi Chris hi Anita hi Mike Walsh I and I'm an I can you just sent me an email on the gring the extension yeah thank you okay that's just the first item right was that was that both that was for both those was for both can I say anything yeah oh no we we public hearing did we we didn't we just continued it continued it okay um should we re do we need to reopen it then for him and I just make it off the record I just want to yeah yeah no no I don't think you can you can he can he continue didn't close so you can continue to so I just want to let you guys know that we're not coming in here just to come in here and ruin your roads ruin your neighborhood that's not the intent here we've done our due diligence on the need for daycare and we've identified that in your area there is a strong population of two income families who have a need for child care during the day we are not taking over other dayc carees we're not putting people out of business there is a need for what we are providing and I understand that that your the location and the traffic is the biggest concern again we are offering up the ability to remedy the problem that exists already okay okay all right we just we got to go down a rabbit hole how about we that's why we that's why we need to do the peer review process agre I just don't want it to feel like okay all right so we are on to the next agenda item so if you guys want to continue your conversation if you could take it out of the room please excuse me if you could take your conversation in into a different location vacon property over on 129 perfect um we're going to continue our site plan and special permit rules and regulations and next item up is 10 hild Street Mr leaver requesting a well it's now requesting a three lot subdivision but we haven't updated our can I close the door please thank you uh good evening so for the record Brian goodro with Hancock Associates um yeah so we have we have a revised exhibit plan uh that's a four lot subdivision um versus the five and originally as submitted the six uh so this evening what I'd like to do is just kind of give uh a little brief overview of of how we got here today and hopefully use tonight's conversation as a little bit of a reorganization so that we can clearly understand what um outstanding questions and concerns are as well as to discuss the four law plan again it's an exhibit uh so it's not fully engineered yet but hopefully after tonight's input uh we'll have enough guidance to be able to move forward and engineer the plan excuse me so last September we submitted a definitive subdivision application it was six Lots um each one of those lots had a duplex on it so it was a total of 12 units subsequently we um had a number of different discussions about things like like uh 21e uh we went into a lot of of nuance with subdivision control law with Town Council uh ultimately a peer review was a traffic study with a a very uh detailed scope was requested and conducted a peer review happened and then during that that traffic um discussion and and peer review The Proposal went from a six lot subdivision down to five so we went from from 12 units down to 10 units excuse me um and I believe it's been a few weeks since we've met with the board last and the uh last traffic conversation that we had I think resolved a number of the technical questions or issues back and forth with beta uh we committed to widening hildr Street to 18 ft um and and uh here we are tonight so with respect to a little bit of a reorganization uh last week I had sat down with David C the conservation agent as well as as Evan uh just to discuss this four lot plan and kind of really figure out on on our end what we had left to address and um when I came out of that meeting I realized I didn't have a lot of action items I think there's confusion at least on on on what is is outstanding to date um with some of these these items and one of them was the to stay on the traffic one of them was was tidal uh I believe it was at least my understanding that our our attorney uh attorney howler uh opine that we had rights to to widen and and improve hildra Street I believe Town Council uh did the same thing he said you know we have access to it and and widening it is is supporting that access but I believe Evan didn't think that that was the case or maybe there was still a question there that that title had to be done so that's like an example of an item that maybe we need some clarity on so that we can continue to move this process forward um and some of these items take take time so what I would be uh what I'm requesting from the board kind of as a part of the seasoning is to uh itemize outstanding things that we need to address so that we can work with Evan to understand the timing on our end to gather the information so that we can organize our Consultants appropriately whether it's the tra Transportation engineer whether it's um insight into the Board of Health process with our our hydrogeologist our attorney uh we just want to be able to for C the next handful of meetings um and then to to stay on the traffic piece that we committed to widening the road uh we haven't been asked to generate plans now from our position we feel that that's an easily conditionable uh kind of item before construction starts we develop a plan set we submit it it's reviewed by DPW a p reviewer if the board wants to see it again and sign off on it you know that's fine but likely that's not going to be the opinion of of potentially some of the board members so we would just like to to understand you know what what else is being asked of us so that we can continue to be productive excuse me uh so that's that's kind of part one uh part two is the the four lot plan that we have before you so working through both this process and the conservation process and the Board of Health process um it kind of came to light that we needed to look at the project as a whole and see what we can do to address concerns uh this board had concerns from the first meeting about density we went from a six lot subdivision to a five now we're at of four one of the the key items on this plan is it's comprised of four Lots but one of those lots lot four on the southern side of the road is the existing home being relocated so it's going to be three new duplex lots and the existing house is being picked up from its current location and moved on to Lot 4 excuse me um so that's so one of um one of the items that we'd like to revisit as a part of this plan is how we came into the into kind of the permit process from the start where we feel that there's not enough density here four lots for full road buildout so on the exhibit you'll notice that we are proposing again a hammerhead turnaround we're asking for uh a waiver of full CLD disect buildout so that's 108 ft swap of pavement for four houses we don't feel uh necessarily fits with this anymore uh we're asking for waivers of sidewalks as well as Curbing and in discussion with the Conservation Commission something that they really wanted to uh pursue was potentially reigning the geometry of the right of way itself so subdivision control specifically defines right of way width of 50 ft for minor roads and lanes and collectors 40 ft uh excuse me for for um minor roads and collectors 40 ft for a lane This falls under a lane so as a part of waving potentially sidewalk construction we can actually shrink the right of way to fit what is the road the driveway if you will and shift Lot 4 further away from from the resource area and that would so it has a a benefit of uh the reduced density on the plan um as well as kind of Shifting things away from the Wetland to the South and at our Conservation Commission meeting last evening it was discussed that at a at length and I believe uh it was decided the chair was going to potentially send the board kind of an email explaining their position on the matter so this evening again with this just being a sketch we're looking for an indication of whether or not that's palatable if if the board would consider something like that so that when we go to engineer this plan um we can engineer the cor it correctly the way that the board wants to see the project move forward um so I guess I guess in summary that's kind of that's where we're at what we'd like to do is we'd like to work with Evan have the board submit kind of questions concerns that need to be addressed and work with Evan between now and the next meeting to kind of get a schedule or a time frame for some of these items um so that we can forecast going forward how this process is going to continue to play out as we address additional concerns um the board has as well as uh hopefully get an indication this evening whether or not the waivers are acceptable palatable if the board would consider them so that when we we engineer the plan um we can respect that okay so I had promised earlier to circle around um Carl had sent me and I fored it to everyone at the beginning of this meeting um had sent to me I don't know last night late or early this morning um that regarding the 10 hild Street project the Conservation Commission supports the applicants proposed changes that take the project outside of the jurisdiction of the Conservation Commission these changes are moving this project in a positive direction for environmental and conservation values um that's from Carl Bishoff the chair of the Conservation Commission and I don't know if anyone had a chance to watch their meeting um or if you want to try and summarize um their discussion of this project um but they had a long conversation about whether they wanted to say more than this um and whether they wanted to actually encourage us to move the building as Brian was right Bo alluding to further out away from the protected area um that would yield additional benefits with regard to um would that be a change of the driveway also so so the current picture um if you look at the bottom of the picture um you've got the Vernal pool down at the bottom the issue is that for vernal pools there's a 100 foot buffer thank you Brian um so at the current proposal for this picture the house is touching the um 100t buffer and the grass lawn is within the 100 foot buffer of a Vernal pool um Joel can speak a little bit more to it but essentially the protection of a Vernal pool um is slightly different than um other habitats because of the nature of the Vernal pool um they really want to try and keep the 100 foot buffer untouched even with lawn area um because that disturbs the natural habitat so the proposal that Brian also gave to the Conservation Commission yesterday is if the right of way is waved even further than what the diagram shows the bottom house and the grass lawn could be moved further up yeah completely out of the 100t buffer so that would mean that the roadway that's currently at 20 ft and the right of way which is the um the Horseshoe or the uh culdesac um hammerhead Hammerhead well the right of way is is that culdesac area so if that right of way were shrunk the neck then they could move that other building and yard completely out of the buffer and that was the discussion what do we do with the traffic study now well so I think the the Conservation Commission understood the implications of that and so while the request was that the conservation endorsed that change the discussion on the conservation was that they're not willing to take it that far what they were willing to do is say that that change what the change would would impact in terms of the natural habitat they were not willing to say please do this change because because it has other potential yeah ramifications that aren't related to conservation correct but that we would have to consider y exactly on our table yep it's all connected one question I have for you Brian the 18 foot hildr widening that did not include sidewalks correct it did not include sidewalks correct and the tightest that road is right now is 14 13.8 I yeah I think it was I think that it might be a little bit bigger than that but not not by much so so I'm sorry can I'm sorry the the 18 there is the town has the right of way to get to 18 there is no town right of way the town has no interest in hildr it's a private way so along that private way um there are private rights to use and improve so what I think has been presented and discussed is that the applicant believes that they along with likely other abutters to hrth have rights to improve it within the right of way the right of way I forget what the right of way of hildr is believe it's up to I think it may have been more than 20 right way is larger the right of way is he'll he street is a little bit unique I don't know if I have the exact uh definition of the width of the RightWay but it looks like it's 30 yeah it is so so within that 30 foot right of way parties that have rights to improve it can improve it without other parties that that's why I to get they don't need they don't need approval from the town to go in and approve it are betters that's why I I've asked that I think the missing piece on on the title search is to actually do a title search and submit that information just so we can close that loophole okay the applicant indicating that they item they willing to allow the town to the DPW to review and review the plan that may not even be legally required um but if they're willing to accept that as a condition and the planning board to accept accept the condition of review uh then that's fine but I think we need to just close the loop on the on the legal uh burden approve uh because there's likely board members that have questions and there certain likely members of the public that have questions then there's an issue that we're talking about right now is within the board's definitive subdivision approval and Hildreth adey away to what extent does the board want to see or require improvements so we're talking the applicants proposing 18t withd a pavement no sidewalk the right of weight can accommodate a sidewalk and 18 ft but the more the more you expand the more uh disturbance takes place within hrth and as you've heard from the abuts while they understand that they don't necessarily own the property is essentially their front yard and being treated as such so the applicant's willing to expand the pavement to 18 ft which according to uh beta would resolve uh vehicle vehicle access 18 ft also mirrors as you recall from attorney Hy uh within your subdivision regulations 18 ft is the the referenced um withth of pavement for um I think it's referred to as uh ways that are not accepted ways that are not accepted are adequate 18 ft is is is what subdivision regulations deem as an adequate width for unaccepted ways which I think may be why they they're proposing 18 Evan but I think Evan I think har also mentioned that um standard with for new construction is a lot more than that and before this board considers 18 ft I request that you take a ride down my street which is only 17 ft wide and make a determination whether 18 ft is adequate well I'm not making that determination that's for you guys um but your subdivisions basically say right but you can you can you can treat it as you can treat it as a new construction and the applicant likely has the right to widen it to 22 24 ft which I think har said was 32 right the standard 32 or 34 which is what I have I believe in my notes you're only working with a 30 foot right away so you can't you know again it all kind of goes back to reasonableness we're not trying to expand it right right so I think that's you know we haven't engaged with Council in some time here um but I think the Board needs to understand the existing conditions and deficiencies with hildr and figure out you know if you're looking for offsite mitigation as part of an an approval what's reasonable and the other way to look at that is if you're looking to uh consider um a conditional approval or a denial you know what's what's unreasonable in relation to what's being proposed my concern with both the Hildreth 15 ft and this new proposal is that there are no sidewalks um I think that one of the issues that we addressed early on is that we wanted sidewalks on the subdivision Road it's not a driveway there are seven there are seven units in four buildings and that's a road and I think that we need sidewalks we've been pretty consistent on sidewalks and curbing for most of the projects that we have been um that have been coming before us and I think approving this without sidewalks is a huge mistake I also think that the applicant has talked to us before early on about how accepting or accepting projects that are not up to standard is not a good practice and it it's caused problems here so why would we do that again for the onsite project when it's potentially I mean no one one ever thought that we would have a subdivision off of Hildreth so why would we approve a substandard roadway in this project only to repeat the same mistake that happened before so I would like to see sidewalks on hildr I would like to see them on this project so I I just have a quick comment if I may so subdivision regulations for a lane in an RC District is 22 ft of pavement and sidewalks on both sides would the board consider a middle ground we can install curbing we can have a 20ft road and we can have a sidewalk on one side and what that would do is that would give us 10 ft within the right of way that we could be more sensitive than we are right now to the environmental aspects of this project then you're still getting a road Curbing and sidewalks I think we do have some precedent for that I'm thinking of uh Joe Ready's project right next door to this which I think only has uh sidewalk on one side the other concern I have with the the width of the road within the project is that there's not a lot of parking in there now that there's no culdesac and what happens in Joe R's project is that they park outside of the site if that happens on hildr that's a problem there's a big problem problem there so by narrowing the road in the project we're also creating parking issues and so I would I would have a hard time accepting shrinking the road back to something where we thought it wasn't a good idea to begin with so if I may continue to kind of describe this uh so each one of these driveways has Park for four vehicles plus garages so that's six vehicles for each so we got two uh driveway spaces for each unit plus one garage space for each unit so that's six so we feel that to be suitable now if we don't have the full 18t radius of pavement at the end of the rideway and we have a hammerhead maybe some gas spaces are appropriate there we could guest spaces visitor spaces exactly like we could strategically place overflow parking within this and still be able to reduce the footprint of pavement still be able to to provide the adequacy of with areas for people to park and and not build an excessive amount here what did you say was it the parking per unit six six per unit structure six six per struct structure so three per unit three per unit usually if someone has a party it's one unit not the whole building so if you have a family living in there you've already got at least two of those three spaces used and the g you're going to have space you're going to have space issues which is why I'm suggesting that we have visitor spaces in Le of a full called the sac and we can determine how many um the board would feel appropriate could you show them on the where you would think it would go on the map so I would say down at the end and then potentially we could do something more towards the front if we wanted to create e and be able to to put one or two spaces and kind of space them out throughout the project but we would have to kind of determine what the board felt appropriate for that visitor parking space is it a total of six for four lots for seven units you want to see seven for seven units you know I think there's room to be able to do that well this is Joel I'll I'll just jump in here um and I I agree with u Chris that um pretty pretty much early on I think probably from the first if not the second meeting that we had we identified two sort of major issues with this project one was the traffic having to do particularly I think with pedestrian safety so I think pedestrian safety was was definitely a major concern of ours and then also um the other one was the potential impacts on environment um to some degree I think those issues are in the process of being addressed um but in this case I think with the request uh that was presented to the Conservation Commission they they're sort of we're sort of setting some things it's a multivariable problem you know that they we really can't treat them independently because to some degree um what we do you know with respect to the um with what the commission what what was being proposed for the commission also has impacts that was as was identified in terms of with some things like that which are things that we're concerned about in the broader picture that Christmas Christmas identifying um first of all I want to say I fully support uh Brian G's request the applicants request that they have some sense from this board as to what we consider to be the issues to be addressed and how do we think they could go about being addressed and so I think to some degree um certainly the question of what we think will resolve in my mind at least is What will what will resolve pedestrian safety um so in my mind that means I'm more concerned about sidewalks and I'm a little less concerned about Road width yeah um it also the idea of providing parking spaces so that you don't have overflow into the road that would create again potential pedestrian safety issues um is also I think a pretty reasonable thing to look at um certainly the legal questions of what can be done uh needs to be resolved if that's something that we're going to consider asking and I think I don't think we want to ask that unless we have some ideas to whether that could actually be done and then the other one some of the other things that at least in my mind are still open which emerged actually in the process which is the which is why we asked for the phase one um why ultimately now the um Board of Health is is addressing that is the question of was the question of are there areas of contamination on the site and where are those areas with respect to where we want to be able to put houses and yards and things like that and to me that is a question that I would still want to see before I would agree to a layout plan because it may be that some of these areas that we're currently identifying we want a house and a yard we would say maybe it's better not to be there um and so that would be something I would want to also to be informed by before we agree on a layout just to have some sense as to you know what what are are can we identify that these areas are relatively you know sa for human habitation and so forth so right um those to me are the sort of big items when I was looking at the different things that we were concerned about the only other one that I would say uh that has arisen recently with the question of the PE f is the impact obviously we're not going to as I said before we're not going to regulate the mCP but uh where that is a potential concern for us is with regards to storm water and whether to what degree we have infiltration and where we have the infiltration and so having some knowledge about what the directions of ground just like on 93 brick Hill you know uh having some sense of where the which Mr G is familiar with uh you know where we are having the infiltration uh relative gradient wise to uh locations of p and the directions that those might be going uh to Public Water Supplies is is of interest and so in my mind that would be something that we would want to uh for for the in the interest of acal protection have a reasonable idea that we're not going to be um exacerbating a an existing condition by what we do on the site um so those to me are the I I think the significant things that I would think we would want resolv before we uh before we reach a point where we think we can sort of work out what what we think the right balance of things is going to be that was a good summary Joel do we have anything like a timeline where we expect um the board ofth will be getting back um their study so uh we received and and attorney hler can speak to this um as well we received a letter from Donna Greenwood Board of Health agent um we were scheduled for a hearing on the 1st which is Monday uh the peer review of both the phase one and the hydro geologic study has not been completed yet so we are on the August agenda so we anticipate August to have some sort of action I don't know if you have anything else to add to that so we're getting there I I agree with Joel that we would want to know you know the um lo you know there was description I know you took exception to it attorney hler but there was description of burned air conditioners and um and so I would I would like to know where those potentially contaminated sites are on the site I agree with Joel before agreeing to a plan um a layout of this of the site and so we have one but it seems rather tentative lacking that information to me when you're done I'm done okay I do have a couple of thoughts I I kind of agree with Joel uh and you that I'd like to see I I'd like to see the results of some of this phase one uh of the phase one and and some of the work that surrounds that that being said I think we ought to be in a position to give fairly good guidelines about some of the things that obviously will be changed could be changed by this but how wide is a road have to be how much how how much uh sidewalk do we need I think we can answer those now even without determining exactly where the bits of that row will be I will say that I like the idea of adding uh some generalized guest parking I think that that goes a long way to helping out now if everybody in the street decides to have a party on the same night you're just stuck but hey you get that you get that on my street you get that on every street um in terms of the width of pavement uh I'm actually reasonably satisfied with 18 and I'll do a little explaining there in a minute I very much favor uh sidewalk but I don't think it needs to be on both sides of anything not in in an area that's small I will say that I I sometimes think that we are overemphasizing some of the safety aspects of the traffic related to this project I look at it I don't think the big safety here is somebody speeding down the street and bumping into something it's people backing out of their driveways and hitting a kid in the road I mean it's it's stuff that's going to be there in a neighborhood that's this small and this controlled uh regardless so I I think think while we have to consider the safety I think we have to be uh be a little uh discriminating in in what aspects of the layout of the road are important to that safety I'm getting a little confused is is the 18 ft that you're mentioning yeah the new subdivision Road and or Hill dri be both for all I mean you know I'm not sure that there's a really good reason the lane as as Brian mentioned for the new subdivision the pavement with is 222 and you're you're okay with 22 we're proposing on the exhibit 20 20 is fire 20 is a fire department standard um if that's if that's a standard and people are satisfied with it okay I mean but if the right of way if the right of way which we haven't really discussed any the right of way is reduced from 40 to um 30 right you could mathematically accommodate a a 22 foot paved roadway 100% compliant with a with at least one fully dimensioned sidewalk on one side Sidewalk withth it's fouret I think DPW for public way requires 5 ft for snowplow operations but this is not in this case you know I look at I look at at hildr probably never ever ever getting wider than 18 ft uh and it seems little silly to me to be running a 22t piece of pavement into an 18t piece of pavement I don't think I mean it doesn't matter to me one way or the other if if 20 is easy to do then then that's a reasonable number to use but I mean I think you have to it's not my big concern I guess that's what I'm trying to say it's it's the a foot here and there on the uh on that access road doesn't strike me as real important my opinion you have to have a sidewalk there because especially on a street if you had two larger Vehicles say two larger pickup trucks going is they're trying to squeeze by you don't want to have a situation when you have children walking on the street either the two are from the school and you know at least if they're up on a sidewalk they're not you know not saying they're immune but they're going to be a little more protected than being in in the street John is that on hildr street not the new roadway yes and I I did want to ask Evan a question if I could Madam chair um so I'm not sure if this is a question for the New Town Council or whatever um as far as right of way and in the private way status that I'm hearing tonight that it seems to be considered a private way um so if you have a situation where the owners of ten Hildreth can want to widen or widen the street along their property what if you have a situation where a director butter next to them on that same side of the street does not want their property taken don't have the answer to that I think I think the title search with some legal review would address that and resolve that issue cuz my only concern we wouldn't want to have a situation where we have the street doing you got now my my initial understanding is that the any a butter along a hild would have the right to improve the entire length that's correct that's what our view that's my my understanding that's my general understanding but I think we we want that to be verified yeah okay so can I ask a quick question so all right yeah the width of hildr are you taking it from the new Street out to 129 or are you taking it the entire Street it would be the new it would be the new Street out to 129 and if you were talking about putting a sidewalk would that be in that same location it it would be okay so just my two my just two cents I'm okay with the 20 20 wide on the new development with sidewalks on one side that lead to the 18t pavement on hildr with a sidewalk on this the same side so it's connecting all to 129 I I would rather see the same width all along hildr CU having multiple widths you're going to get that in and out well but you're at a turn I I see your point you're not at a turn yet you want to take concerned about the existing homes losing their Frontage yeah I am too but at the same time you're going to have two different size streets again wait where are you talking about from hildr it would be from the the proposals from hildr s um from the project 10 to Bila road so you're concerned about the part of hildr past the project yeah from h from the um subdivision to Plum Street right that's the that's a town accepted way that portion so the town would have the right to do that if the town felt it necessary that portion has been accepted you mean the is that the portion to the south of Plum or the portion to the north of Plum have to be a public way to have a subdivision end is the accepted part used from the project road to private road that they're put in a subdivision how many Fe are we talking proposing to connect a private road to an ex we go figure that out can I just ask that um that if somebody from the audience is speaking that they come to the microphone I can hear the people on the at the desk but not in the audience just go from here can you go up to the board and point point it out what your concern is EV can you use your mouse so that the folks online so from the project road to Plum is the stretch that I'm talking about yeah this dash line represent the accepted section so from that dash line all the way to 129 because if you widen only from the project Road up to 129 and just have that little narrow section of hildr Orphan segment just bizarre creates a really bad little section it's odd don't see as hor that it has to be although my preference would be to have it even but on the other hand uh burdening the proponent with that piece of it doesn't follow the same logic as having them take care of from their connection out to 129 well car turn left onto Plum if they're going out to Summer Street so that's not going to be the big road the big the big traffic you could if you're going to the Summer Street Plaza you could going over to citro Palace or have no interest in expanding yeah the scope of what we've originally committed to if and all you're going to do if you do that is get the neighbors what else say south of uh where the new Drive road is perhaps upset because you're going to require us to take more of that lane as well yeah it's the same theory of we have the right to improve the entirety you're just going to tick off a number of more people that's your choice but it doesn't make sense to do half of the street and not the other half but with all due respect Chris it's worked for 75 years without any issues where well so so has a single family home in that location so you can't use that come to the microphone Doug would you move to the microphone you're going to speaking just because it's worked for 75 years does not mean it's right obviously the the the width of Hildreth has worked but it's causing a problem now it's causing a problem now because you're making it cause a problem in your minds the reality is that the police don't show an extraordinary number of incident reports the fire department and the police department have never reported that the is a problem with access to or from and the traffic studies support what we've been proposing all along so you can say has been an issue because we don't have those houses there the subdivision doesn't currently exist and you're saying that seven units rather than well actually six new units is going to make a huge impact on that is that your position logically it will make an impact yes it makes an impact I agree everything makes an impact does it make such a significant impact that it warrants this kind of analysis it makes an impact that I would like to have mitigated okay we're trying to compromise on things here with you I'm not getting the sense you're willing to do any of it and nothing is ever going to satisfy you that's the impression you're creating well that's the wrong impression you're getting well then are you willing to agree that if we put in one sidewalk along the new area which you know for three houses you want we'll do or would you rather have a sidewalk along hildr which is much more more important and serves everybody cuz they're walking out from a dead end out onto H I would like to see a sidewalk on the entire length of Hilder from Plum all the way to 129 and in the project right well then the town can do what it's supposed to do but my client is willing to do what it's willing to do and can do from Plum to 129 is completely unaccepted it's on your map I know it's on the map that's not the issue why should my client be responsible for improving this whole area no that's what he's asking no he isn't he's asking from Plum to here which has not been accepted from that point forward down we're proposing to go from here down yeah who's going to pay for this he's saying the applicant correct why is that any different than the other side of hildr is that what you're saying my client should pay for the widening of the road and every and all the improvements and a sidewalk from here to here yes right because it's the same going the other way why is that different because the impact that we're creating is going to be the impact coming down here and out people can turn left too pedestrians we could do a lot of things but we're not obligated to that's an obligation town there is no sign saying you can only take a right onto hild this is an obligation left and right this is an obligation of the town which no one has raised for decades yet they came out here every time to complain and I'm saying enough how much more do people have to listen to tell the town to do its job for which they pay taxes and all of us do and put in the sidewalk from here to here it's an unaccepted Street may I finish I didn't interrupt you may I finish you did actually but go ahead I'm asking the chair to take some control over that yeah I we don't need I think that's we don't need commentary please thank you I thank you madam chair all I'm asking all I'm asking for is my clients's committing to more than half of the project on that it's not obligated to do any of that okay he's will I'm asking you if you want that ask the town to do its portion it hasn't done anything for anybody on hild street for decades it's time the town stood up can I ask you why it's the town's responsibility to put a sidewalk in an unaccepted roadway Public Safety if it's working now well then if you use that logic if this is working now why wouldn't this be working now it is working now it won't work when you add those houses with six duplex you know what we're not going to we're not going to settle this understand at this moment that's enough I want to understand his logic I think he expressed his logic to you six dup disagree it's okay six duplexes plus a single family single solver do that I it's it's being moved comment to that Madam chair i' like to add a comment to that and to Mr hosler's comment about why six duplexes would change the dynamic again I have repeatedly said that I live on a street a very narrow Street there are three houses on it there's an acceptable it's been there forever since they put in 495 that's what happened to our street but there's only three houses it works for us today it will not work for us if someone comes in and doubles the amount of houses on my street it just won't we can't get around it so I think it's unacceptable that attorney hler is challenging that and the if you guys want to come down my street and I can show you how it works in real life and it is when you double the amount of houses and traffic on a street it becomes unacceptable that's reality okay thank you all right um Doug would you please sit down sure all right so we have a list of what we want started one is a feedback from the lawyer one is I guess we need to make a determination amongst ourselves what we are looking for with regards to the road okay both the hildr I guess the two parts of hildr and the subdivision and um the sidewalk um so I don't know if we want to have put forth a straw pole of what we would be willing to accept well I don't know I I think I gave you my take on it if you think that's an adequate description um I also think that maybe before we do that we should hear from the residents about what they think about a um sidewalk on one side of the road and a widened Road um since they've been waiting here for 3 hours has it been that long yeah we're getting up there seem like 10 minutes it's a plenty board meeting yeah pack of lunch try not to be repetitive please um P morassi 15 Plum Street um thank you for letting me speak here uh I think this this is a tough issue I think we'll see people on both sides of it but I just want to go back to we did the peer review beta came in they spoke they said that road needs to be up to the industry standard to be safe they did not say 18 feet that came up afterwards that was a uh maybe a concession um that the applicant said like we'll meet you in the middle but the peer rwer did not agree to that he stood here and said it has to be industry standard you're putting in a new intersection right there and he talked about the sidewalks um at that time I just want to remind you that 18 ft was also supposed to have gravel on the sides of it um that's in the regulations so I don't know how that works if there's a sidewalk up against it um not sure how 18 ft works with the sidewalk up against it in terms of getting around each other moving down the road I think that's problematic you can't just pull up on the sidewalk like we've been forced to pull up on people's um properties so I think that's an issue and um I was just a little bit surprised not to hear anybody go back to that um beta response that that should be there um also the 18 ft um requirement that's been mentioned before uh as many of you know uh that is only for a plan not requiring approval this one does require approval so that it doesn't line up um so while it is something that you can look to as an example uh it just doesn't match in other cases um the Council of the applicant has been very by the book for example with the water department and the septic concerns they were very clear you know we're not going with that because we had our application in before so we're not worried about the health concerns it's all about timing it's all about being by the book so if we're by the book then that 18 ft does not apply to this case um so I would urge you um at least from my perspective to have that road to the industry standard um I I would say um like Mr Luna stated that if you did have to pick one I think the sidewalk is the more important thing to have um so I see I see what you mean by that but I do think that the two go together thank you evening Bruce McMaster sixer street I'm in a butter emphasize butt uh okay first of all that's a street and I somewhere in this town you have a bulaw about the width of the street and all the sidewalks and everything else I'm not going to go there but you need to abide by that you worked hard to get it keep it septic under the driveways we've recently been a contact with guys at the water department you you need to check with them their statement to us it's off the record I know but you can get it on the record is there will be no septic accepted there by them the sewage for the one home fine not one not two not three no septic and you still got the problem with even if somehow you work your way around that you get the septic under a driveway as a last resort those words are in there somewhere this is not a last resort all right the Hammerhead redesign you need to go back now and check with the fire department see if they can get that vehicle turned around in the Hammerhead they can do it in the cuac can they do it in the Hammerhead I doubt it if it's if it's a big vehicle especially now if there's cars parked there you got a problem okay you might have a life saving problem all right so someone asked me to check back into uh property I've lived at six Hildreth since 1956 57 my father built the house but his parents owned that property the property Nate Montero lives on the property on that faces on Bika Road at 95 and 97 and the big house 99 101 that was my grandparents home they also sold that lot that AB buts my property to Holland Kelly because he came back from out west and he decided to save a cow pony who was going to be put down that was Taffy okay Taffy's buried out there somewhere but the bottom line is that all that was my grandparents property and I've got all the documentation here for that surrounding that all the way around except for Bara Road it's a stone wall my grandparents bought that in November of 1917 that stone wall was already there because it's mentioned in the transfer from the previous owner the family is Chase so how that can't be historic I don't know but that's the whole other issue and I will tell you right now that I'll fight tooth and nail if you come up my side of the street with a sidewalk and you try to take down that stone wall that my grandfather built you're going to have a fight on your hands okay I'm going to give Evan I've got several copies and I've highlighted some of the some of the information if I sound angry I am thank you very much for listening I appreciate it I thought I saw somebody else tiptoeing up hello um Christy wood 16 HR Street um just to piggy back on what um Bruce was just saying about the Stonewall that's just something that um I actually did attend one of the Historical Society um meetings about the ston walls in and around the property of ten HR Street um and I think that's something that um you need to connect with them or they need to connect with you I'm not sure I think were waiting for you you might be waiting for them I do know that they deemed that the the walls are historic but the ones that are on the um side of the road um cannot be touched so that's something that um you need to you need to please take a look at um so um the other thing I just wanted to say was I completely agree with everything that Pat um is he still here oh there you are that he said um you did do the peer review on the traffic study I mean I'm just reiterating and saying I completely agree with that you you did it um and I think that it's you should you should take that information and use it wisely um the last thing I just wanted to say and maybe I misunderstood and I may have but talking about putting just this on the new road the proposed Road sidewalk box on just one side that that would give and I hope I'm correct I'm saying this maybe I misunderstood 10t or so more um in the area of the um 100 foot Zone that would so I think that's what he had said um and I know that we're not here to talk about that but I know that we're also trying to mesh you know one thing with the other to make one thing work um 10 feet is still not going to take it out of the 100 fot zone so that's just going to end up having them go back before the Conservation Commission and if it's not out of the 100 foot Zone I don't think that's going to work um so I'm just saying it's going to give them 10 feet it's that's not enough I think I mean we usually don't respond so I'm speaking out of turn but my understanding of their meeting was they thought this plan took it out of their no there's it's the yard the house is out of the Zone the yard is still in okay if you shrink it further it takes it completely out of their jurisdiction okay the yard and the house okay so I just wanted to mention those few things thank you how's it going uh Justin 26 holdr uh couple things I just wanted to touch upon real quick is that even with the septic we are still gambling with our towns drinking water uh to people that don't live in Chumps probably doesn't make as much of a difference to them as it does to the people that have to boil their water here to cook food in take showers in every day uh I strongly oppose any type of septic on our aquafers I I think that's just common sense that just sounds insane to do something like that um regardless of what kind like I know if it's a last resort like there has to be a better plan especially if the water department has come out and said absolutely no septic it has to tie in to town sewer um on top of that uh so I live on the uh towards the dead end side of everything and to think that people aren't going to leave this uh proposed development to get to like the Summer Street area uh down Plum Street I think is uh little asinine excuse me but it's I'm not going up to 129 to get to the Summer Street area I'm cutting through Plum and then cutting through Grove and then I'm right there so to think that that's not something that's going to affect the uh Plum Street is just simply not true and it it's not I think any of my neighbors would just would agree that we're going to go that way we're not going to drive up to 129 and then go into more traffic and go around the library and to get to Summer Street um the idea that this has hasn't been a problem for whatever number was thrown 75 years is quite frankly because it's been a quiet neighborhood for that long you're going to introduce a massive housing project to the neighborhood it's going to change absolutely everything um if you do add a sidewalk proposed to go up on the uh say you're facing 129 going up on the right right hand side of Hilder Street not only are the McMasters going to have a sidewalk uh right outside by their window they're going to lose all the trees in the front of their house uh Nate's house which has a driveway that goes down like this um will have to probably have his whole driveway re-engineered um to accommodate that because the sidewalk will go like this to his driveway and cut into it it'll also have to remove a giant oak tree in front of his house too um I don't think it's acceptable that all my neighbors have to lose their Frontage of their properties that they've been paying taxes for for the last 50 years uh to accommodate something like this and that's my two sents thank you like that short um Massi comtoise 24 Hiller Street um just a couple quick things first of all I mean we've been talking about this for 11 months now um this is an ongoing thing traffic septic this project and of itself it's it's kind of draining but we'll be here because because we are passionate about this um this road size was discussed at length in September and in October um where the bow was very clear that they weren't going to reduce the size of the street that you guys wanted this to be a normal size Street as was brought up by members of the board if we stop building reduced size streets for this we're going to do it all over town and it's going to create a problem so reducing these size of the street now is just going to allow other areas to say well they did it here they can do it here I can do it here and we're going to have the same PR that we currently have on Hilder Street which was again built 50 years ago when cars weren't this big when it wasn't used the way it is now another thing is in the fire department report you need to have a place for the fire apparatuses to turn around which was why went with the CAC a hammerhead is not going to allow a ladder truck to turn around I know they've had to come down on my end of the street I've seen them come down with the truck to flush the things they have to back out can you see them trying to back out of that street and then onto Hilder street with that truck it's not going to look pretty and they're going into someone's yard it's just it's facted or they're going to have to drive over driveways which will potentially have septic systems underneath it which puts pressure on those septic systems which can cause them to crack it's also been discussed at length both at this meeting as well as the Conservation Commission and brought up at the Board of Health as well the letter that everybody's received from the water department that as of right now they cannot support this project with septics on this property due to the fact that it is on the the aquifer and the past numbers in town are high one of these septic systems cracks it drains into the aquer where do I get my drinking water from is the town going to be buying me drinking water each week so that I can shower my kids can shower we can cook we can drink I don't think so we're looking at a big problem if something like that happens these are the facts these aren't things that we're just trying because we don't want this project it's not the development in of itself something that is reasonable for the street the street started with 14 houses they came in to double it we're now down to what we got two four six seven houses which still brings in half a dozen more vehicles with no parking I'm still trying to figure out where they're saying they're going to put parking on the front of that because then that would take from one of their properties which would probably reduce the size that they have and might not make the square footage either um so it none of this makes sense it's not that we don't want something built there but we want something built there that's going to be reasonable and sort of fit in with the street adding this complex does not fit in with this very small Street I myself have taught two teenagers how to drive on it and have told them how we work and maneuver around the street let's put all these other cars in there and then let's see what's going down the traffic study was done in December it got dark before 4:00 right now drive down our street and all you see is kids playing out in the yard they're on the street they're riding their bikes they're playing ball when the traffic study was done none of that was going on it was a cold day yes by the afternoon it hit 40° but it was a cold day and it is dark by 4:00 we have no street lights so to sit there and tell us that our kids don't play on the street or use it in that fashion was incorrect drive down it now and see what's happening on a daily basis it is packed with kids yeah it is packed with families riding their bikes it is packed with people walking their dogs their infants what we found on that traffic stud does not clearly represent this neighborhood and I'm very concerned that if we're changing this plan again the traffic stud doesn't match what we're now seeing in the plants it doesn't thank you good evening uh Paul wood 16 Hilder Street um just touch on a couple things I know I had opportunity to go down to the U DPW this spring with a few of the neighbors and we questioning about widen uh Hilder street at the time and I'm sorry I can't remember the gentleman's name he's one of the senior engineers and he just for food for thought for you guys he told me any even though it's unaccepted road if there's road work done that they would want to approve all plans for that road um far as anything has to be done and with the sidewalk and the widening I'm number 16 which is basically one of the low points of Hill Street there's quite a bit of water flowing down that street and it's I didn't I took pictures I it's cut cutting into my yard and floods the side of by yard now he said wider Road and sidewalks is going to increase the drainage so I think drainage would have to be a big issue part of that plan of changing if it's 18 ft or if it's 80 ft they have to address the drainage issues and put in some sort of a drainage system um and the other concern or question I had for is um the duplex on Boston biller Road 9795 the newest one and also a new one on Plum Street both have widened they were what they designed you know backto back cars which doesn't work when one person goes to work at 5 and six you know they go to different times they've widened their their driveways the one in Plum SE just double the size of their driveway Bas it's the front of their house cuz it's very short the ones that have four they can do you know four across you know two for each unit side by side that's makes more sense so I don't understand that if they got especially if they have septic would they have to be some sort of moratorium or some sort of of statement saying they cannot widen that drive driveway because driving into dway that's going to completely cover the potential septic systems but that's what I've seen happen twice now in the neighborhood they've doubled the size of their driveways to up because they you know nobody parks like this I got to go to work at s00 she's got to work at 8 you know but I'm in front of you today you're in front of me so they they widen it out if you understand what I mean so you know even though it has six it's it's better to be wide than than that so I don't know if that's something that they could have a restriction they don't do that for the safety of the the septics they have the water but um and again the town engineer he when I mentioned 18 ft to him he said oh I he's he was talking in the 20s that's how you that's the standard so right thank you thank you hi I'm Jeff Carney 17 hildr Street just past number 10 on the other side and I've just been listening to all this and I'm thinking five six or seven decades ago the planning board allowed hildr Street to be this narrow and it's caused all these problems so what do we learn from that let's do it again let's have another substandard Street too narrow what 20 feet wide is there going to be parking on both sides where are people going to park we haven't resolved that much at all and I'm wondering not just about the fire trucks that need to turn around but all the other delivery trucks that are constantly coming and going I see them going by my house almost constantly several every day and ambulances how fast you want to get them through when you have cars parked all over the place a substandard road is not a good idea in the future in decades ahead it will cause more problems just like hildr has I'm sure there's lots of other things that we can talk about but substandard roads are not a good idea at all that's what I have to say today thank you okay I don't think we're going to make a straw pole about the road width tonight I don't think that I'm ready to go down that road yet yeah I thought the F Department had a problem with the way it was constructed to begin with yeah presumably they're going to have to be asked so but they're trying to get our input to something that I believe the fire department had an issue with with the original design so I find it hard to believe that they'll be good with this that's just me I I don't know before I would be ready to make any determination I need information more information from the fire department I need the phase one I need the peer review of the hydro study um I need legals input on whether or not someone can improve that land that um roadway one of the abuts I need I guess I I need a preliminary plan of what it would look like with an industry standard Road width with a sidewalk you end up losing that I need the information from historic about the walls which I guess we don't have yet that's correct um with that preliminary plan I guess I'd want to have a better understanding of exactly how many houses are going to lose how much of their yard I yeah the design of Hildreth would have to see it how that would shake out right I guess I'd want to know how if the road was widened that would impact the storm water and the drainage I feel like we're pretty far away from the information that we need to tell them what we would want so we have a scheduled Conservation Commission hearing on the 9th obviously we're going to be continued this evening to presumably the 10th um the one item that would allow us to have a more productive conversation with the commission would be sidewalks on both sides sidewalks on both sides on both sides of the new newly proposed route so if we were if we were allowed to eliminate sidewalk on one side and tighten the right away um by 10 feet which is the grass strip and the sidewalk that will allow us to continue the conversation uh with this revise plan while we work all of these other issues out with the board and what would be the road width of the so 22 is the Lane right now we're showing 20 so it's 2 feet I'm not that concerned about having uh a large impact uh to the resource area with that two feet so worst case scenario you lose theal house make a standard size Road and have three units no we would not lose the house we would have the right of way as shown and we would continue our conversation with the commission that way well I mean you know practically I I've oh go ahead all you good I say I am perfectly willing to say I'm happy with sidewalk on one side I mean that's of all the issues in here that's the one about which I have the least doubt um but that's predicated on the Hammerhead no just no we separate them out so you could do the the right of way maybe maybe they could maybe they could the cuac with a culde saac and we could tighten the right way up along the straightway in front of L four and make it work so it's really it's the question about sidewalk and being able to pull our limit of work North so we would have the sidewalk and it it didn't actually matter which side of the road the sidewalks on I would want to propose it on the North cuz that's the way out towards the school um on Hilder street but that that's the critical Dimension basically so whether we if we can understand tonight whether or not a single sidewalk is acceptable or two sidewalks are going to be required we'll be able to have a productive conversation with the commission well I'm willing to say one I book why don't you make a mtion well I mean this is really a straw pole okay why don't you propose what I I I would say that leaving all the other aspects of this aside that I'm I'm satisfied with the notion of only having sidewalks on one side of the subdivision of the subdivision or you know wherever we're going to have sidewalks which side Mike huh which side I don't really care I don't think it matters it would isn't there more homes on one side of the street yeah yeah it would go on that on the other hand it's it's going to be a fairly lightly used street I you it might make more sense to have it on the North side but but that's a minor to me that's a minor aspect okay but what if what if we approve one side and then they come back it's on the south side and then the the committee doesn't like that we don't have to approve a side we can just say one one sidewalk at Le at that that's what I'm proposing may not be what others would like but I would prefer any other residences the majority of the residents so I would say the north side towards Center School would be the one I would okay and I'm not sure that it matters much okay so we want to say the north side yeah why don't we say the north side just for the purpose of having a straw pole and I'm I'm certainly good with that I'm good with one sidewalk in in the development of yeah it continues all way all the way through John that sounds reasonable if it's on the side the sidewalks on the side with more un yeah that does make some sense I think it sounds good but I I have to see it on the plans right I need to see it but that's why it's a he just needs to work with that um Mike Walsh yes I'm good with the one sidewalk on the North side okay okay Anita so I'm I'm going to again I'm not comfortable giving any waivers um on our zoning like that's where it stood from day one we require everybody to follow our zoning and it's there for a reason so they I personally feel this needs to work within our zoning if it doesn't work they need to change what they're proposing okay so no all right and I'm a yes yes yes four yes so that's well four yeses and no and you were not decide undecided yes for the purposes of moving forward but yeah yeah we want to see we want to see it all together I would agree with understood um so thank you for that uh we will be revising the plan for conservation we'll make sure that Evan gets a copy so you can see it uh with the sidewalk and then um my only other kind of comment is if we could have a written kind of list of those items that you tried to list off to Evan um then we can you know continue our our organizing efforts and be able to respond do you plan on um being at the July 10th planning Bo meeting please um Doug do you think you could submit anything for councel to review on hildr okay all right okay um I will take a motion to continue I move that we continue this to July 10th I'll second that all in favor hi we need to Anita Mike hi okay so it's unanimous yeah I um all right on to the next getting late enough we are to just we're not doing or we are doing we have 110 middle sex Street okay oh the hearing the hearing was open but there was no testimony given at the last is there anybody here on that I guess we can't get rid of you he's having a double header no comment right so 110 middle sex Street sweet 1 marchie LLC requesting a special permit per section 195-212 operate an outdoor contractor's yard that has already been operating since 2019 and any other zoning relief necessary site is in CB shown as personal ID map 14 Block 19 lot 11 for the record Douglas hler representing the applicant uh David marchie the owner of marchie LLC is with me um it owns suet one at 110 middle SEC Street if you drive by it's right across the street from St John's they have been built and used as industrial condominiums for 50 years plus or close to um it it is by nature industrial Condominiums the issue arose because there were several vehicles that were parked outside that were commercial vehicles and it's in a CD zone so the building inspector wanted us to come and get a special permit to make it official no one else has complained about it it has been used this way consistently for God knows decades when you use the factors of a special permit it's not having any negative effect on the social economic Community needs it's there's no effect on traffic flow the the utilities and public services are already there the neighborhood characteristics we're next door to the uh plumbing supply company and the funeral home and we've had no issues with either no complaints from the dead surprisingly um neb neighborhood character social structures are the same no impacts on natural environment and the potential fiscal impact is negative it's neutral everything is really sad Saied the special permit criteria we just want to make it official it's something he's been doing and everybody did before him for decades and that's what the other unit owners are doing and none of them complained and none of them are here we're presented with a f well so the fire depart the fire department has an issue though right has did it was resolved it was resolved you got I don't know if you received any letters I saw one but I don't think it's not in the packet but I the fire department inspect was a clean letter the he met with the fire department at their request with the building inspector I saw a clean letter that got sent to us it was it's not in all right okay I will represent online version yeah there was an online version I so it's all clear it was cleared yes storage of flammable yes absolutely I did have a question about the riverfront aspect I mean I know that conservation said if it involves a change in use no which it does not I know but it wasn't it wasn't zoned as a contractor's yard right that's a that's a permit special permit anyway Contractor Yard it's a that's what we're asking for it's a special permit to make it official it's the condo documents which have were approved and recorded Etc uh describes it as commercial uses and other uses that's exactly what was defined and approved when the condom minum was approved and I believe in the and that's also in the master deed in the lanord as well so these other uses he's really no different than anybody else operating out of there who all have their own trucks and equipment and who would be responsible for the storm water if the Condominium Association would be because that's common land what is being stored outside C trucks trucks so why would this be considered a contractor's yard because the the trucks and the nature of his work that's what they call it that's that's the definition Falls with heavy machinery I believe yeah you to pay is it the heavy machinery or is it the trucku inside but the trucks are outside I mean if you look at the website they like clean if this is stuff that the board doesn't want to see then let us know I mean well the only reason this is here is because six years what were you at five years 19 uh 5 and 1/2 years if this if there if this was in place for 6 years or more it would have been grandfather grandfather no I get that but my concern is what I Envision as a contractor's yard is not this this this is a contractor no but if you look at their website what they do is cleanup sites but they don't bring the stuff back to this location he's not you're saying like in the where where it's a single l you're I think you're referring to Chris not a multi-tenanted condo development but a single tenant single yard but an outdoor contractor's yard usually stores Machinery material and things like that our definition says any of those any any one TR the emphasis on the heavy machinery so I don't know specifically what Jose identified as heavy machinery being outside a loader so if it was a I mean so so this whole thing came up because I want want to get a uh a contractor PL from the registry of motor vehicles so I you had to go y I went down and then they told me I needed this I'm like I had no idea Y no one had complained but Jose but my my question is was a loader is not necessarily A Truck a loaders heavy equipment yeah so that was my question is what's being parked outside if it's a truck like a box truck no David truck don't truck okay all right Town truck okay have we beaten enough horses tonight yeah yeah we have you need a motion on this yes please I would uh need to need to close the hearing first oh that's true you have to open the hearing we did last meeting oh we did all right move that we close the public hearing on this matter second that moved by Mike rck second by Paul um all in favor a roll call and we'll do a roll call with Mike Walsh nodding you need aoll call a full roll call okay I Paul I Chris no no I'm sorry nope Chris go says Chris says no I say I we're just voting on the public closing of public hearing right now oh okay sorry it's getting he's still voting no all right is it unanimous for the public hearing yes okay all right all right now I'll take a motion now I will move this one won't be unanimous I move that we Grant special permit under 1958 B1 uh to operate as a Contractor Yard to marchie LLC I'll second that motion by Mike raceback second by Paul um roll call Mike I John I Paul I Chris nope Mike Walsh hi Anita I and I'm an I so 61 I thank you yeah and I'll take one more motion please I beg of you good night everybody hi good night all in favor feel like we got anything done e e for