##VIDEO ID:XzMMZrdfMhE## e from last time e e it being 7 o' we will bring order this meeting of the chouns planning board um on October 9th this meeting will be recorded and televised and also available um on demand eventually um if the meeting were it were to um if the electronics were to go down we would continue to conduct the meeting as a live only meeting um and with that we'll open to public input which we're happy to hear commentary from people in the um public either live or on Zoom who are wanting to discuss something that is not that is within our jurisdiction but that is not currently this subject of a pending public hearing or on our agenda um commentary on any pending public hearings will be heard only during those public hearings so is there anyone who wishes to speak um in the public input session Becky online no no okay then we will continue along administrative review we have nothing new public hearings we have a new public hearing regarding for palot Drive um for palot LLC is requesting construction of 16 new parking spaces with Associated site improvements the project seeks the site plan review under zoning bylaw section 19514 and special permits per section 19518 for reduced parking section 95- 21 for location of parking section 195-43 for Property Line Screening and section 195 d44 for landscaped buffer strips and any other zoning relief deemed necessary the property is is identified as assessor parcel ID map 8 block 10 Lot 10 and is in the multifam RM zoning District consisting of approximately 1.33 Acres so uh Casey good evening good evening Casey Ferrer with Howard Stein Hudson here on behalf of the applicant for payot LLC he's telling you have marbles in your mouth want to get a little closer or something how about that is that better yeah oh yeah okay so that's a little loud um like you said it's a four palot Drive which is if you were to drive up tingor Road take a left on the payot drive it's the first or the multi family building it's on the left at culdesac um it is an existing uh TW two-story 8 unit uh two it's eight two-bedroom units um Residential Building historically it was built in 1961 I believe uh and since that time parking for the residents of that unit or of those units has been utilized with three parking spaces kind of in the front adjacent to the right of way and then the remainder just within the right of way either along the edges or stacked like a parking lot um it is in my understanding that the town has approached the owners um issued uh basically a um demand that they situate the parking on their own property uh going forward um so that is why we are here tonight um just a little bit of kind of the existing scenery what you have from payot Drive is you have uh paveed parking extending from the right of way into to the front of the property uh you have a walkway that goes into the building um adjacent to the building you have a 12T Drive aisle that kind of extends the length of the building and then behind that you have grass um for about 90 ft um at that 90t Mark you have a um a wooden fence that crosses the property um and then the payot drive the four payet Drive property extends another approximately 200 ft past that fence uh that 200 ft consists of Woodlands uh some wet L flood plane um and then also the Castor restaurant has paved some of their parking lot into our property um which is kind of adjacent to that wetland in the back there um the situation or the the the sighting of the proposed parking lot is essentially taking over where that grass space exists now behind the building um and the proposal is essentially to remove the majority of the pavement that's at the front of the site uh where they Park their three parking spaces and have access there remove that expand the 12T Drive aisle that's next to the building to provide an adequate safe access to the rear of the building um that drive AIS do you have the the layout plan that you can pull up it' be easier if I can point to it but so the drive aisle that's currently 12 ft was not adequate for fire access um so expanding that to mainly 20 ft um there is a portion of it that's condensed to 18 ft which was okayed by the fire department um and that's just because of proximity between the building and the property line we don't have additional space to get that 20 ft um and this is can just go one more so this is where we're expanding the drive aisle here and right there is that pinch point for that 18 ft we have provided the fire department um turns for the trucks uh they have approved them um so they are okay with the fire access as proposed um at the very front we're more we're situating an ADA space with a regular space as well so there'll be two parking spaces out in the front that is off of the drive aisle no longer directly off the RightWay um so there's no backing out perpendicularly into the right of way it'll be situated perfectly within our Drive aisle and then as you move forward to the rear or as you move to the the rear of the building there's 14 parking spaces proposed at the back um for an eight bedroom sorry an 8 unit of two bedrooms uh approximately 19 parking spaces is required as per of the zoning bylaw um a special permit uh can be granted to reduce that by 25% um historically approximately 14 cars are in use during or for these units um and those again have been parked out front um and we're proposing 16 total parking spaces um and majorly that's because we just don't have more room on the site uh to provide additional parking um so we've maximized the space that we have available um in providing these 14 spaces um existing storm water all of the storm water from the site uh of the impervious surfaces on the site currently uh drains towards the front into the RightWay of payot Drive um and at that point Point enters what I will call the municipal drainage system which is really just a curve break at the end of the um at the end of payot Drive where it drops into a drainage easement uh which is an intermittent stream a ditch you know uh where it travels adjacent to the property between our property and dunshire drive and the rear of the dunshire drive properties to that wetland in the back so again everything currently from the property runs towards payot drive into the drainage easement and then travels to the rear of the property uh into that flood zone the wetlands um Etc uh the proposal is that the front approximately halfway up the building uh we have to situate a high point in that entry driveway just to maintain grades as much as possible uh have adequate drainage going uh so that we don't get icing or ponding or all that so there's a high point situated about halfway down that drive so from halfway to that drive to the front that's remaining draining towards payot Drive can you point where that is sure so about here halfway down that the side drive this is all going to remain draining towards payot Drive um as the existing condition does um there's a net reduction in impervious surface that is draining towards payot Drive um we do not there's no drainage infrastructure in the front uh for us to tie into even if we wanted to capture it um so in coordination with the town they basically said because it's a reduction it's an existing condition they don't mind they they they approve of it maintaining its current existing paths um and going towards the end of pay drive and out towards that drainage eement for all of the rear everything that that is now proposed to go towards the rear uh we have situated a a rain Guardian bunker unit um which is a treatment a treatment unit similar to I've I've proposed in the past in front of this board a rain Guardian turret it's a very similar unit it's just smaller and more condensed and provides higher treatment for lower flows um because this parking lot is not very large we can use the lower flow rate to get a higher treatment percentage where that discharges to a proposed Pond uh that surface Pond will attenuate up to um just before the 10-year storm event um it'll fully hold the 2year the 5year and just over tops in the 10year storm event uh where it discharges back to that drainage easement uh which then flows towards those Wetlands um in the in every storm event uh we do see a reduction in volume towards the the drainage easement um and then every storm event except for the 100 year we we see a reduction in rate as well in the 100 year um the rate is increased by 02 CFS which represents approximately one half of a% increase um which falls under the DI Minimus flow increase uh requirement through D um again I know and we had this we I had a meeting with conservation last night so I do know a lot of the a butter concerns that we've heard there is a a significant issue with flooding in this area um a lot of it occurs offsite um there is I understand there's a covert that once it's maintained a lot of the times it drains out um I can't control how the state or the town maintains their drainage infrastructure all I can do is propose on my site uh measures that meet storm water standards and try to help the existing condition um and basically what we're doing is we're showing an overall reduction in volume discharging towards the strain easement and towards the Wetland and that in turn I'm not going to say it will alleviate flooding concerns but it will not come compound them um flooding is mainly a volume issue there is a rate component to it but if you have more volume going in you're going to have more flooding um so we we're reducing volumes throughout every storm uh we're not com compounding a flooding issue um the last portion of this that I will mention is this is a flood we are in a flood zone or a bordering land subject to flooding and we did Pro uh provide a revised um a revised grading plan that shows that we meet on a foot to- foot increment uh a net increase in storage on our site as required by working within the flood plane and with that I can turn it over to questions just a very very small question uh you say you will be removing Pavement in the front y okay how much is going to be removed and how much is proposed to be added I presume you're adding more than you're taking away but correct so there is a net overall increase to the entirety of the site but to the front of the site there is an overall decrease I don't have that exact number but I can get it for you as part of um we have to provide a revised set anyway so we we'll more CL We'll add some detail and Clarity curious to know what that is yep so Casey all the drainage is going to you're not diverting it to anywhere else you're bringing it all the way to the existing culet in the back so in the end existing condition and post condition everything ends up here oh yeah right uh in the in the existing condition there's this and it flows this way and down and out in the proposed condition half of it does that and then the other half comes from here and then goes into the pond and then to the same location so what happens right now with the grass that's there now does it drain that way now or is it just drain just perious into the ground right there correct the the grass has an absorption rate of you know 39% or something or a runoff rate of 39% or something so there is a portion that stays in in location and there's also a portion of it that runs off and continues towards that Wetland area in the back so am I correct you're going to get rid of the grass cover it with pavement and then cut down a bunch of trees and what and and the trees where the trees are now is is going to be more pavement or correct so the the proposed parking lot extends into the or past the existing fence which is essentially the start of the tree line so what we have is some of the parking lot and then the proposed Pond is kind of where the existing Woodlands portion of the existing Woodlands if you're going to be building this Pond or is that pond there correct we're building a it's a detention there won't be any trees left no there will there just significant amount of trees that are further back here so this is where Castor is paved on the four P property but everything else around here is vegetated trees so the existing existing fence is somewhere in this area so we have a portion of the parking lot and then the pond built past the fence and then the trees begin so can I ask question um sure is that I'm sorry I was out of turn so is there a letter from the town to the owner asking for this to be done you you verbally mentioned that a Written Letter who who from the town has asked for this to be done DPW fire Park so they've formally asked the the applicant to put this parking lot in I believe it was a cease and assist of the parking yeah it we were told that we could not park on the you want to come up to the if you don't mind if you don't mind just state your name and Y Kathy r one of the principles of uh for p LLC um we were told that we were not allowed to park cars in the center of the right of way um and that we could um until we had another solution for parking um they could only Park along the edges and during um extreme uh weather events extreme snow conditions they would have to park somewhere else okay and Castor has graciously granted us a corner of their lot where we can park or we can have the tenants Park but the long-term solution is to build parking somewhere else and the current backyard is the only place that's really viable that's on your property right okay thank you at the conservation meeting last night um they did suggest uh that the Conservation Commission may want to hear a little bit more about the reasoning from the DPW and the fire chief so I think that they may be invited to a future concom meeting um to get a little bit more background on that because of the tradeoff between the wetlands and trees and grass right no I agree thank you yep and safety yeah okay um should we go take it around Joel do you have any questions for the applicant yeah um I'm looking at I'm actually looking at the supplemental data data report the the um proposed sub catches so which sub catches are draining towards payot drive and which subc catches are I'm draining towards the pond are you looking at the drainage Maps yeah so there's a subcatchment that wraps the front I don't um I don't think you have that up here for do you have a drainage I don't think you have the drainage the supplemental it's the supplemental yeah yeah basically what you're proposing I just wanted to see where the water was yeah I can describe those subcatchments if we can pull them up yeah and and my question where I'm where I'm heading towards is the water that goes to the pond in the back then where one where does water go when there's overflow so both in terms of your your storm water the rain Guardian thing and then also the the pond and um uh but also then just generally wanted to see where the sub catches are fing okay is this the sheet you wanted uh no if you were to go into the supplemental data report it'll be one of the appendixes of the supplemental data report one minute that's it then you just go to the very bottom it's the very last thing it'll be appendix G the very end that looks like right there so what we have in the post development is we have 202s 202s is the only subcatchment that goes directly to the pond okay all the other subcatchments 2011 goes directly to payot drive 203 goes directly to that drainage ditch that's uh basically area that's unable to be captured by any of our storm water systems and 204 is an area that goes directly to the Wetland so that's an existing we're not touching 204 at all but 202 is what is um okay if you if you go up just one Becky MH so this is the current the existing correct yeah and where is the where is the water flowing in this case 101 102 1 directly to pay drive all of 102 goes more planned South really Southwest uh into that and then 103 is the existing that goes towards the Wetland directly to the Wetland okay so if you go back to the proposed so what's essentially changing is that there's a large section of that of the middle section that's going to be captured by your system 102 basically so all the existing grass and some of the Wetland or sorry some of the woodlands that existing ghost to the drainage ditch is now being paved and that's going to be captured put into the pond and then discharg to the drainage ditch so in the end it has the same end location but it's just being treated infiltrated detained first and then discharged okay is there is there a way or is it feasible or do it even make sense to drain the pond more directly to the wetlands as opposed to the drainage Stitch I mean because what what I'm thinking of is the drainage ditch is obviously a source of an issue for Neighbors backyards and so I didn't know to what degree that could be the drainage ditch is hydraulically connected to the Wetland system so it is our intent to have the least disturbance possible to that rear area and if we try to redirect it directly towards the wetlands we'll go further into the buffer zones it would be optimal for us to discharge it to its current location and allow the natural hydrology to just carry it to the wetlands in the end okay so what kind of curbing is there going to be on the um the proposed curbing I want to say is by T minutus but I could be wrong me one second here it is okay and uh so where does the Overflow from the rain Guardian go the Overflow so that discharges directly to the pond okay it's all it is it's a it's basically a catch Basin but it's a treatment unit that discharges directly to the pond and then what about the pond where does its overflow go overflow goes into that drainage ditch okay okay thank you sure uh Casey have you guys thought about I don't see it on the plans any um Landscaping um between the new parking lot and the two neighbors to the South number 23 and 21 dunshire so I that came up during the Conservation Commission meeting yesterday um what I told the Conservation Commission is we'll walk it with the owners and we'll we'll see what's able to be done uh they requested there actually partial requests some of them wanted screening type arbites um others wanted more habitable um species that would kind of allow a habitat to ensue after they're planted um I do know for screening purposes and I did say this to the Conservation Commission yesterday um I'm sure you're aware and being adjacent to construction but the the trees that will get planted if any aren't going to be full grown mature trees that are going to provide screening on day one um so you know the type of trees that we want to pick um has to be in line with some sort of objective that isn't immediate screening because that's just not feasible um so if the Conservation Commission wants to go a Direction that's we want to create habitat or we want to do this you know we're happy to try and accommodate um certain requests but you know I just don't have the ability to bring in a 14t herb tree that's going to screen this from the neighbors immediately you know what I mean y okay great and we also want to be you know we want to be conscious because this isn't the ownership group here isn't some Investment Group that has tons of money behind them and they're doing this for profit um this is something that's been thrown on them and they're trying to figure out the best way to just you know achieve what ultimately the town needs them to do you set mic Anita Chris um Casey would it be possible to do Granite curbing along that um bottom Edge um along where the drainage ditch is so it maintains its Integrity during plowing and and stuff like that sure I can certainly speak with the uh the applicant and see if that's you know something that we can accommodate cuz we wouldn't want it losing integrity and then spilling in unre discharge um how high is the fence around the drainage pond the chain link fence I believe it's a 6ot 6ot okay are there any safety concerns you're talking about the proposed fence right that we're proposing right yeah are there any safety concerns with that type of drainage pond so in the past no um there is kind of a new wave of requirements regarding surface ponds um if they detain a certain amount if they attenuate a certain height like specifically Burlington for instance if it detains or attenuates I believe it's a foot you need a a fence around it just for you know child concerns and safety concerns so there is a movement towards requirements for ponds uh out of safety concern um I don't believe chump has any requirements for those but we did throw in the um the fence just as a safety measure because we do understand that dunshire has children and you know okay you you said it was eight or six I believe six six okay um and the rip wrap that is going into the drainage ditch for the Overflow is there any way that that can be positioned to the rear to make it flow more directly into the wetlands yeah so that leads towards U yeah I guess so if we were to put it on this side the existing flow path for this specific area is straight to the ditch it is so you'd have to work more towards the back into those buffer zones take out more trees to try and redirect all of this to go towards the wetlands okay um that's all the questions I had most of mine were answered last night informational meeting last night Mike uh nothing in particular it looks like it's going to be compromises no matter how you look at it John Casey you had mentioned um in front of the existing building there was a plan to remove pavement there because be adding Pavement in the back and adding a lawn in front of the building are there any plans to like um have features so that someone couldn't drive on the lawn I'm just thinking people might be used to parking in a certain area and just drive on the lawn once it's planted or whatever if guests arrive or something there is currently nothing planned for that um but what I can say is let me just get to the grading plan real quick um so once we remove that pavement that grass is going to have a pretty steep slope going back up the tieb in so might just be not enticing for someone to try and drive a vehicle in somewhat of an off-roading scene but we can look more into that and see if there is anything we can add um that also the town might be okay with to to do that anything else John no that's thank you um Casey the dimensions of the grass to be removed in the back what what is that and how does it compare to the dimensions to be planted in the front so there is an overall increase in impervious there is an um so the amount that we're planting out front is not but I'm just wondering what's the like like what's so there's 90 Ft worth of grass I'm not sure exactly how wide the parcel is the front in the back so the width is 90 90 I was going to say so um the lot width is approximately 70 in that location so you'd have about a 90x 70 um we're not taking up the entirety of the grass side to side but just as round numbers um and then in the front there's three parking spaces worth of pavement so you probably have approximately 30 to 40 ft of pavement wide that's going to be 20 ft deep so significantly more removed from the back than added to the front so 40 by 20 going in is is that what you said yes approximately and 90 by 70 coming out approxim it'll be less than 70 but just for round numbers yes okay I mean I was just there um and you know there was a bunch of kids in the backyard playing yeah and it's definitely not optimal for the owner uh to lose the grass they do not want to lose this grass space it's one of their the best parts of this building uh especially for living in the building um unfortunately right now they just don't have any other options MH and also I didn't I didn't really understand where that little side road was going so I made the mistake of driving down dead end uh couldn't turn around couldn't really make a three-point turn to get out of there that was it's very very tight it's tight right so we are expanding that um like I said it'll be 20 feet it'll be 24t behind that parking proposed at the front 18 ft at the pinch point and then 20 ft through to the access to the rear so it will get bigger and it will get better for Access purposes what about um I I don't I don't know um exactly how this works but I know in other countries I've seen more so people using pavement that's like pavement bricks that have have grass in between I'm sure that's more expensive but it would so that was actually an optimal solution for the owners unfortunately we just don't have the groundwater depth to be able to put in a system that's going to be permeable from the surface but also have the box underneath it to be able to accept infiltrate and treat all of it we did look into it as an option um it's just not an option for the the groundwater that we have here is there any option to do part of it like that we so the rear of the site right now is an existing septic system so that's compromised we'd have to basically remove all of that retest it um so it's it's technically that wouldn't pass soil testing requirements through Title 5 for a system so we couldn't do the rear um and then for the the very front of it um we we do not have any soil data to see where the groundwater is but we also have to maintain a separation from the building for infiltration as well so we'd really be cutting down the amount of infiltration area we have and we'd have to have a pond anyway to make up the rest of it so there wouldn't really be a reason to do a portion of it as uh perious pavement but then also still construct the pond in the back have one more item what's that I have one more item I forgot okay um Casey there was some comments about the fence along I think I think towards the rear not being in the greatest condition would it be possible to also replace that fence as part of this project as well we can look at the the condition of it and see if a repair or replacement is necessary um I'll work with the owners when we walk for for landscaping and and see what we can do there um just to add not necessarily on to that point exactly but I know um some of the ab Butter's concerns yesterday uh was regarding the drainage coming onto our site um I do want to mention that in an effort to be as Cooperative as possible um in the revision that you guys will receive we're going to do our best to take the information we have on that pavement coming in and just try and include it in the in the storm water report um you know I had a pretty long explanation last night of why we didn't but just in an effort to be cooperative we'll try and add that in the next revision that you guys will see thank you yeah and I have another question as well um Can can you walk us through the other you you discussed the special permit for the parking reduction but there's also the other special permits can you walk through each of those and and say what it is that you're asking for so the Landscaping requirements the width of buffer strip landscape plan and all y so they're mostly related to Landscaping as part of a a parking lot so in essence the the request for the special permits revolves around this isn't something that this is something that's going to be a significant economic burden to the the applicants as it is um in an effort to be able to get it done in a way that the town's requiring us to do so um we need to be able to balance the cost of getting it done to something that's reasonable for them to be able to afford um Landscaping while it is nice um on new construction and other proposals this isn't really the same situation where we're coming in asking to build a new building that's going to make them you know a whole bunch of money this isn't an economic positive for this applicant so what we're asking for is basically a give and take on you know we want to provide this the town's requiring us to we want to do as much as we can um but we also can't make this economically unviable because if this becomes economically unviable nobody wins the town still is going to issue them a cease and assist and they also won't have parking yeah but I was wondering if you could go over the specific individual permits that you're requesting what is what is the standard that you're asking really from okay so the the the no off street parking shall be located within 10 ft of the RightWay so that is from Article 5 chapter 19521 so that that is for the two parking spaces that are out front um so those specifically where we need those there for Ada access or for ada8 to meet the Ada requirement for a new parking lot um so the the property Lin property lines with residential uses shall be screened uh from non-residential uses um this is technically a residential use but I believe the town sees it as commercial in nature because it's multif family um so we're just requesting that as part of what I said earlier just a reduction for the Landscaping required to to put this in so that would be all those dunshire Drive properties on the side we're just requesting a special permit to not have to landscape the entirety and Screen the entirety of that uh planed sou property line um the landscape buffer strip so that's along the property lines along property lines a landscape buffer strip I believe it's 10 ft is required uh we simply just don't have the space for 10 feet on that Northern or planned North property line uh to be able to put in a 10-ft landscape buffer strip okay all right thank you sure but are you looking for like instead of 10 ft 8 ft buffer strip or no buffer strip well essentially no buffer strip cuz that curbing on the top side is essentially one foot from the property line to fit this in MH Casey I have a question for you on the drainage how much on the Tings Boro Drive facilities up there how much of that property drainage is coming onto this property property so we actually went out there and looked at this after the Conservation Commission meeting yeah most of these properties or this property here 106 R drains to this um I guess it's like a rip wrap kind of depression that's at the back of their property we have a burm along our property line that's approximately a foot to 18 in higher than the top of that Ri so it's unclear to us exactly how much of that water eventually makes it to our property um we are told that in essence this overwhelms and then comes onto our property we don't have any survey data that supports that um but so in an effort like I said an effort to cooperate uh we're going to try and model this to the best of our ability based on the information we have to show how it impacts or does not impact our drainage design um but so again this property 106 here uh this parking lot essentially all of it drains to two curb cuts on either end of this rip wrap kind of depression Castor basically just runs off directly to that Wetland with no treatment or anything yeah cuz I just see if the town's making you put this parking lot in then the town should also make that residence there those uh units that are there on tingor road to handle their own drainage and not come onto your property so it does appear that they have some sort of drainage mitigation at the back end of their property it is not clear what it attenuates what volume it discharges how much it takes up um we simply I don't don't have drainage information from them um what we can work to do is try and model it to the best of our ability um with the information that we have to show that came up last night as well in the concom meeting as well as the fact that there are some drainage issues Downstream from this that are impacting that area that the DPW has on their list to uh look at eventually right um so one of the things DP also but this this applicant shouldn't have have to pay to solve the problem no but this is one of the questions that came up yesterday in concom which is why they want to talk to DPW and uh the fire chief is why are we requesting this to be done now could it wait a little bit and then see if those Downstream impacts can be mitigated first to relieve some of that flooding and then do this as part of that okay so that was one of the reasons why concom wants to have further discussion with DPW and and fire chief to see maybe there can be some temporary um accommodations in the front to find temporary parking while DPW mitigates the rest of it okay great thanks okay so they're but the concern is is that this this will it will potentially make things worse it definitely won't make things better but no no one seems to want to do this yet okay and this the sense I got just I mean I didn't see the whole meeting I watched much of it till early morning hours and then couldn't watch anymore but um there it sounds like there's places Downstream draining towards the river where there's backup problems that are backing up here causing this flooding to be worse and so while they're hoping their drainage system will improve that the part that impacts this property it's you know in a in a setting where rain is waterers increasing in some places I mean it's making potentially making the problem worse that's being caused by Downstream so if they could fix the downstream then that would make this less of a problem Casey in the in the existing condition right now how much of the water that particularly in higher level storms that's coming on this proper just just from the just from the water that falls on the property itself how much do you think is actually being infiltrated versus how much is basically flowing you know is is exiting the property um in in in Gross values or or percentages just percentages so so approximately when you have a grass surface surface you have approximately 39% runoff these this is in an hsg a hydrologic SL Group B area so that's actually that number is actually a little bit uh there's more runoff associated with the hydrologic Group B but just in general if you have a good grass area that accepts storm water you have a 39% runoff right I mean so I mean what I'm thinking is even if there wasn't an issue of M water coming from the other property you know the the fact that the the just the strip itself it's it's not it's so narrow that it's not really going to offer any if you're not just from what falls the water that falls on itself is going to be runoff right and so at that point it's overflow and and so if your overflow is a lot or if your overflow is a little whatever they're doing there isn't going to change that and it's still going to FL the the what they do it seems to me is a more of a positive is instead of all of that flow coming onto both of those properties or three of those properties it's going to just be more focused on at the corner of that one property which is about as close as they can get to the wetlands without actually interfering with the the woods and stuff like that that to me seems like that's a betterment rather than making things it's that it's better better to put in this parking lot in terms of storm water than it is to leave it as it is right now because of the accompanying because essentially what you're doing is you're shifting amount of water that's going into the into the drainage that's behind these houses you're shifting that over closer to the wetlands so so now a lot a lot of the water that used to that is currently now flowing into the backs of those properties is now going to flow much much closer to where the wetlands are but wouldn't you get some infiltration through the the drainage ditch as well that if saturated there's no infiltration in that yeah it's it's just it's just when that's it is basically you have a a water surface you consider that completely impervious because there's no infiltration into a water surface okay as part of engineering design [Music] yeah everyone have all their questions answered for the moment um we have a bunch of letters but I think probably the next thing that we should do is open to the public in accord with that so I'm going to ask that people come up one by one and state your name and your address and try not to be exceedingly longwinded and try not to repeat things that other people have said Michelle C St weather 19 D Sher drive so I've heard numerous statements of well we'll just drain it more into quicker to the wetlands unfortunately that Wetlands as you may or may not know there's a culvert that goes underneath Route 3A it's owned by the state it has to be handled by the state and that is one of the biggest bottlenecks you can pour all the water into the Wetland you want but you know where it comes our yards because it comes down into the wetlands or it comes down from Swain or it comes from wherever comes down deepbrook bottlenecks there and it backs back up into our yards it's all of our yards get get get flooded some of the homes get flooded there's draining it directly into the wetlands is not helpful I did actually send an email to our state representative Rodney Elliot and requested that he come to last night's meeting in this evenings he apologized that he was unable to come he had a death in his family seemed like a good reason not to come um but he did he did note that he had sent a letter to I have to put my glasses on because I can't see my my letter but he sent a a letter to uh secretary Monica tibit nut of the Massachusetts Department of Transportation on December 11th last year about the covert that goes underneath Route 3A and he said he didn't receive a response he's also sent another thing about apparently when they did the do sidewalk project there was some questions about again that Culvert and he's again going to address this Culvert until this Culvert is addressed and there's a couple more bottlenecks further down I've been told Butterfield and I don't know where somewhere else um didn't know where they were so it didn't stick in my head I'm sorry um but until those are addressed pouring more water into the wetlands is not going to help us every time there's more water in the wetlands it comes back into our yards and our homes and in fact if you've never gone over to where the covert is after a big storm we honest to God have a Whirlpool here in chumford because the water can't get underneath so I I am very concerned that we're hearing we're going to put in a drainage we're going to do this and we're going to drain it into the wetlands but that's how it ends up in our yards so that's kind of my comments on that thank you thank you do you want me to address one by one or do we want to let them come up or what do we want them to address each after each comment or just have or do you want me to take a list and we'll kind of come back to them after come back after come back this is public let them public speak yeah let them speak James star weather $1 19 D drive first point I want to make that Mr Walsh brought up uh the abiding property on Tings Boro Road you were you were asked the town needs to force them to direct their Flow Away from for pet Drive why is four pool at Drive allowed to direct their flow into our private property then I would like to have an answer for that you don't have to answer tonight though but it seems a double standard that these commercial businesses has got to be held to a higher standard but us private property owners have to just suck it up and that this is a serious flood area and you'll see pictures later on and so other notes uh the fire Tru needs to turn around is there a a state law state bylaw or a town bylaw that requires this why can't I mean and how are they going to turn around in that new parking lot there's no way they're going to turn around if they have to drive back there so that that's that's they can do a two-point turn and out as as it is and uh in front of the property there's some grass that could be converted into parking spaces and there's also the property owner owns paved property behind castores that could be parking area instead of Cho dring down trees in clear violation of the Environmental Protection act and they're asking for waivers not to replace the damage they do which is to me unacceptable in that because it's a nice Wildlife Sanctuary there now and it's really come back nicely and then this is new news for me also the septic field where is that located it it's it's under the grass so now you're going to pave over the septic field it's out of service it's been disconnected from service yeah it it's out why can't it be removed it it's an old septic field from when the building had septic when the town brought sewer in um our mother converted to the sewer and uh what was under what is the backyard um went dormant as far as septic is concerned feel it made you feel it thank you so they take the tank out and then the natural Hydraulics of the water flow if you come to our neighborhood after a storm it does not flow it does not flow down it flows up first it does not and then it stays for days it does not dry out I don't know how this Pond will empty the water table's too high and and uh again yep I'm a big advocate of the Environmental Protection act and I love we're seeing Wildlife we haven't seen in years in our neighborhood and it's going to be destroyed by taking down all these trees and taking away the grass that the kids play in and there is room out front I mean I got to share the one picture that I got from Google pass this around so what excuse me if you probably should pass it to someone on the board and then go back to the microphone because otherwise no one apologize that's fine the the I should have made more copies too no it's totally fine it's just if you talk into us so you can hear it yes well no one else can hear oh that's bad gotcha so uh on the Google Map it does not show the the CUA sack piece it just shows a nice little L if the road was shaped like that there would be plenty of parking areas out front and that that would be a cheaper option for everybody and uh again there's lots of communities where yeah off street parking or on street parking there's restriction M but people work with that it's part of living in a city or a metropolitan area so convenience at the sake of uh risking flooding my house my neighbors houses perceived or actual and I live there and it's actual and uh the destruction of uh wetlands in clear violation of the act when there's other options available is just needs to be reviewed and my last statement is there's a watershed study for a deepbrook area and I think all new construction should be seriously slowed down until the results of that study because we don't know what impact this construction will have without that information thank you very much can I hold on a second what property did you say the um the owner of this also owned you said they own the back piece of custor share the Sameer all right here place where they paved over over the property line okay paved over the property line so that could be worked out whether castor's uh pave that in violation that that's that that's something the town should be able to figure out but it's it's already paved so why it cannot be used for parking for the apartments I don't understand then that would prevent having to chop down trees thank you did you say they paved the Wetland or they paved adjacent to the wetlands it went in uh technically it's into uh the buffer zone I'm not sure if it's in the actual Wetland that's a separate issue though yeah isn't many stocks that is but you couldn't get walk away but I'm just Al offering alternatives to changing a sensitive area thank you and then thank you hello Amelia kaputo strik weather 19 dunshire drive I have some photos from December 19th of last year we had some pretty decent flooding uh we're fortunately up a little higher so it didn't come into our basements but I heard from some of our neighbors that they did get a little wet in their basement and very close to their garages um it was about a 1 and a half inch storm I believe with the current um infrastructure it was quite a bit in and my current concern largely with the is the shoving a parking lot in such a small lot to accommodate for where all the water has to go it goes to one point a retention Pond we're in a flood plane obviously the retention Pond is going to flood eventually it is designed to flow outwards directly it's designed to flow outwards and directly at the dunshire properties pellet Drive will not flood from their Pond done CH will we already flood regularly the wetlands back flow from the 3A Culvert it is physically too small for the water to get under and it takes hours to days for the water level to go back down that flood Pond that retention Pond is supposed to handle a 10year storm so that means every year we'll have a 10% chance of flooding we are experiencing more severe flooding more re frequently if it's a 5year storm it's supposed to hold but what if it's already a rainy year and the flood the pond hasn't had a chance to empty is it going to flood it's the mitigation ditch the mitigation ditch goes directly into deep Brook which goes into the wetlands which goes into the Culver that's physically too small to drain it to the marac and so my main concern is that we were told at the conservation meeting that the pond is supposed to drain in 72 hours drained to where into the ground into the mitigation ditch into our yards our homes that's directing it directly at properties it's going to go um so our neighbor at 21 they're gr they went the water line went on that um December storm went all the way to their shed that outflow is directly pointed at their home that's where it's going to overflow and our mitigation ditch was dug to protect dunshire after flooding in the 2000s and it already adjusts with the level of deep Brook and I don't think we can handle a pond draining into it too thank you very [Music] much I'm Patricia Moore I'm at 21 I'm a single mom and have two severely disabled children so I have many issues with this um he went out in his backyard luckily I looked out the window he was up to his waist in water I had to go running out um also I wanted to put a pool up for my two disabled children and I was not allowed to it would have had to been 50 ft from the wetlands but yet they were allowed to put a parking lot up and I wasn't so that to me is hypocritical um me and my sons we like to look at the birds we've seen all kinds of birds they have bird books out there um now we're not going to see birds there's no fence we're right at the we're the ones that had it all the way up our yard we're right behind castores and so we're going to look out now and what we're going to just see as a parking lot so if that's going to happen I'm going to have to insist we have no fence I'm going to have to insist in order to keep my disabled children who are very vulnerable safe to have a fence put up and I don't think that should be on me also one of the trees they want to take down is on my property because my sister had the property surveyed so I think it should be resurveyed because I think they think they have more that that's actually my land one of the trees is on my property that they want to take down so those are my concerns all right come on Liam hi I'm Sia Fernandez at 27 dunshire D um I'm actually happy to hear some of the stuff that they talked about today um I submitted a picture I think earlier today I don't know if you have it of the colored version one of my major concerns was the water that's flowing from the other properties that's going to be exasperated by the additional pavement that they're putting in because in my opinion it looks like it's going to be just a super highway to the retention Pond and overfill and go through because as they mentioned they designed it for you know in all the documents in States two years I'm hearing that can hold five or more but for the added pavement you know and they're saying that because the other water was normally going through it's just going to still go through but the problem was a good percentage of that was being absorbed by the property so I don't know if I could walk up there real quick and show that be okay mhm so as you can see here this is all pavement this is all pavement this is all pavement and as they said this portion of it here is actually from them where they over paved it this is about 102 elevation um it was 103 inside of where they're planning to put the retention Pond and they state that no water is going to be going into here when they put the here I'm not understanding that still because this whole section here is about 102 if I make that shorter it's going to roll in and when you go and stand in this area so if you guys have a chance and ladies if you have a chance to go into the back of castores it looks like it's pitched right in that direction of that property now it looks like some could be going this way I mean that kind of makes sense but water is very destructive you know even though they say it goes perpendicular to the lines it's going that way when you have a high volume of flow it can be very unpredictable um so I'm here but we see we see water all the time um and when they're expanding this fire lane makes sense but again they're getting rid of some grass space that's here it's going to abut it and it's just going to ride through so you're going to get some excess water that might have been going this way before that will be going this way and over here they say that there's a BM I don't know if that BM is staying but still if that was overflowing and coming in they actually have an opening in the BM here to allow the water to come through and go through the filtered section which will go in and out into that woman that was just up here that's her property number 21 so she's going to get the brunt of the first part that's coming in here and this side is going to be unfiltered water if it goes over into the retention Pond which then will put more contaminants into the wetlands which is concerning you know why don't you have another filter there I don't know I don't know why this either can't be reclaimed or used as the other gentleman mentioned you know to put parking there um and just to give you guys a little bit of History this existing curbing was put in in December of 2022 back in the 90s when they put in the sewer there was a catch base in here that they removed and from the '90s all the way up until 2022 there was no no flow there was flow being overflown into the ground but there was no actually specific point for the water to go through in December of 2022 the owners whoever was taking care of the property dug a ditch from their property into my property which is here I ended up going back and forth of the Town their mitigation was to come in here and put some rip wrap to help move the flow and it helped a little bit but not really I helped with a ditch because that was the big thing I'm like why are they allowed to dig a ditch over into my property cuz just to let be aware this easement here is on dunshire drives properties we pay taxes on this property you know we don't get to not pay taxes even though it's being used for water flow they talk about kids playing in the grass I agree kids are always playing in Pallet drive and the parking for as long as I've lived there I've lived here since 200 15 has been this Direction with the lights going this way up until December of 2023 when they were given permission to park along the roadway Edge which was actually perpendicular and I was glad that you asked the question about the grass because I actually have pictures of them parking over the curb that I had to ask for because we were getting erosion from all the water coming down pallet drive and coming over to the property and they're actually parking over the curb like their whole two tires are going back and forth over because they wanted to hit more cars around this curb section cuz what you can't see here is this actually curves up a little bit there's a little bit of grass here here little frustrating so I just kind of wanted to explain a little bit of that I want to see hopefully when he comes back with some more details what that looks like through that additional flow is I really don't know what's going to happen to her house when all this water water hits here and there's a couple pictures in a letter that I submitted as well we get water constantly and this area here it looks like they took some elevation marks it would be really interesting to see see what that looks like cuz visually it's pretty flat it's pretty flat on this whole area and there's constantly standing water here so can I ask you can you explain again the granite the curbing that you they sew it in and then they removed a catch Basin in the 90s so when they put so you know no one else I just I'm just going to say no one on TV can hear what she's saying is a microphone okay all right fine sorry my bad so cuz we did some back and forth with with the town because there's been a lot of things that have happened they had their dumpster on my property from 2015 on we had them remove it that's part of the reason why they lost some of their parking in the front of the building cuz that had to go on their property not on my property cuz they had the dumpster over here then like I said in 2022 they hand dug a ditch and I actually have pictures of them digging the ditch and I'm like why why do I have to suffer more and then doing history we looked at some drawings and the engineer is like the town engineer is like oh there's a catch base in here he's like I looked there's no catch base in it actually was the sewer cover so when they ran the sewer line and this he's been here and there's also like the water runs here as well like the actual pipe they tie it into the they Ed the catch Basin as a sewer area so they did this I had to ask for more curbing because um they had opened up like a fire hydrant up at the top of the hill and it blew out a big section of the hill so they were supposed to put in a an earth BM and their solution was additional Curbing and and they were going to make it this big I had them run it the whole length of the curve here so if you ever go to the site you can see it big so that's kind of like historically what's going on there um I I think I understand though what's going to happen for these people here with the lights directed at their house what's happening to me is since 2023 when they were allowed to park along but it's perpendicular their lights are growing in my bedrooms like all the time because the people that live here some of them have jobs all hours right they're coming and going they go out to their car to smoke a lot they go out there to listen to music they when you start your car now what is it 9 minutes for the first start and it's just their car is on and their lights are facing directly in my house like to the point that I was waking up and I'm having trouble sleeping I can't even open up my windows in the summer because the light's coming right in so I get what they're going to go through CU if you take away these trees they're going to have to deal what I'm dealing with it's hard so just hard so that's kind of like I'm happy that they're looking at some of it but there's some other concerns so I don't know if it's possible to go to like my letter there's some pictures in there cuz the big thing is the drainage from those other properties um the other thing that I wanted to talk about is there's a light pole I don't know what order this stuff is in but if you scroll down it's like in the thing here's up here to be easier this orange fence if you go to the property as well we just put that because people were walking through our property this orange fence line here that's the edge of the easement the edge of our property there's a chain link fence that's a little bit further in that is the other side of the easement the water is constantly like 20 30 ft in here um you can see the high elevation of the main road up here right it just just comes down the hill and in so that's kind of that one just show a little bit of flooding if you go up down the next one it shows more flooding so this is on the inside and it's it's about this this deep it rusts the bottom of that fence all the time because over time there's a lot of clay in the UND soil there so the water sits on there and it's compressing the top soil and it's just you know our lowest point is now inside instead of the side of the easement next Ducks Wildlife swimming around my bushes again um you can see this is the way they used to park prior to last December they would park along in here some people would park here if they had an overflow of parking people normally would park up here or along the edge which is a lot better than perpendicular go ahead you can go um this was because the F the trash a often overflows it's frustrating um they only have two recycling bins here they're they often are overflowing or pushed over the person that comes and takes care of their property picks them back up this is when they were plowing stuff through but the fence here being in disrepair and you can see it here it's just falling apart the trash comes through into the easement it gets washed into the wetlands we constantly are picking up trash by like the bag full and keep on going it was a word dock um this is like where they normally put these and you can see like I said the kids just ride around there um I'm surprised and happy that no one's ever gotten hit but sometimes it's pretty scary with them going around that Circle cuz people are coming in to go to three they're also they're also parking in there and you can see actually what's interesting too this portion of the fence that's our survey marker this portion of the fence isn't even on their property but the rest of it is and this is the current parking situation um there's 15 cars in this parking lot area I know that they mention that there's average of 14 I see 15 16 on pretty much much a daily basis um and mostly it's in the evening if you go there during the day like I don't know what time of day you went there it's not a lot of cars there during the day it's pretty much evening on the summer when they have you know parties and things like that there's been times that this thing has been jam-packed full of people but these lights all my bedrooms unfortunately are at the back of my house but this you could see clearly where that drain AG's going miss the next and I guess on that I'm concerned that they're going to overflow their parking as is today and I think one of their statements was they have kids they want to keep some more green space but happens when those kids get older and they want cars I mean there's going to be even more there your lights if I did the other did you back up though a little bit mhm and one more On The Higher One I thing to notice here too is there is a lamp in the front of the property I think they could do better with it um I don't know if it's town lamp I don't know if it's their lamp but this thing actually my my land goes way over here my whole back portion of my property gets pretty lit by that thing and when the DPW came in to do try to fix that Swale they actually took down some trees and when they took it down some stuff that was BL helping block that light went away so again I'm getting complete light you know it's it's hard so seeing this project I get why they're trying to do it I don't know if there's I don't I don't know if there's other ways that they can do it but like I would love to have a fence back here to block it and I I would love for them to have something to block their light because it gets pretty tiresome it it's hard and you deal with this water and there's going to keep on get water just keep on getting pushed in there so my other concern was the two handicap parking spaces up front I get that it's just two I don't know if there's anything they can do to block the light from that but it would be great if they could because it's just one more thing of having to deal with light and stuff like that but I am a little bit scared for her and her property on 21 just because that excess water I know she has a pool back there with this water on the property how is that going to be stable how's that pool not going to go over like I'm concerned I'm concerned with the stability of the property I'm concerned with the water coming into our houses causing mold and everything else so thank you that's all I have thank thank you anyone else anyone on Zoom didn't you already have a turn coming back sorry Michelle Caputo Stark weather 19 Don Cher coming back um so the subject of the Culvert has come up multiple times for that 3A and I understand they're saying well that's not anything we're responsible for and I'm not saying that you should be responsible for that that's the state's problem but it is an existing situ uation so to say well we don't have to worry about that it has to be taken into account it is a bottleneck no matter what you say about like well and then we can just move that water along it's not going to just move along so we mentioned it last night we're mentioning it again and you guys mentioned it as well we're part one of the things we're asking for is if there's a plan or no plan that somehow at some point that covert going across 3A and the other things going the other bottlenecks going down are going to be addressed can we please put this on hold on they're not begging for a parking lot they've been told they have to make one and we're really sympathetic to the whole you need parking there's a rock and there's a hard place where one of the Rocks but we also don't want our homes flooded so if this can be put on hold until the other mitigating things need to be handled and can be scheduled and completed then that I think most of us wouldn't have a big deal with if you want to put a parking lot and you're going to put a fence so we don't have to see inside then I think our issues would be much less about that thank you thank you um there are a couple of people on Zoom but I don't see either of them wanting to speak Nancy had our hand up earlier but I believe it's because I was having technical difficulties she may have been trying to give us a signal okay um so to address I think one of the main common themes in that was the flooding the flooding within the Wetland within the ditch coming back up to the dunshire properties um again I want to well I guess I'll start with this stormw standards require us that we do not make flooding scenarios worse this project could not be approved through you this project could not be approved through Conservation Commission and this project could not be approved through DP if this project were to make a flooding scenario worse all the hydraulic calculations show that a overall reduction in volume is proposed going towards that drainage easement um I am not in any way saying that that's going to alleviate any covert concerns down from the state all I am stating is that from water particularly originating from our site or even pass through our site it is not going to compound an existing issue the water from our site will be leaving in less of volume than the current state um again I did mention there was a slight approximately half a percent increase in the flow rate uh for the 100-year storm event so that's the storm that we expect once per every hundred years on average um but for the 2 10 25e storm events which is what we were required to uh analyze everything is a reduction through and through on the three analysis points the Wetland to payot drive and to the drainage ement um so I am sympathetic with the flooding issues I have them at my house as well um but the hydraulic calculations based on this and the the approval criteria require that we do not exacerbate that issue um you do have a review from the engineering department here that agrees um that has peer-reviewed the storm Water Analysis um there was a question about a RWS rate I've addressed that individually with Sheila um the current design that is in front of you um is adequate storm water wise um um additionally I guess to kind of address some of the alternative analysis um the grass out front you're not allowed to reverse into a right of way um you couldn't just pave right up the grass and allow them to reverse into the right of way that's also not allowed via the town um the existing pavement that's down by cador I don't know if the intent for that was we to access through cassador is but then we'd have to obtain a right to access an easement through there it's not really viable Additionally the dimensions on that pavement is not enough to get us the pavement that would be required um or the the parking that would be required so additionally that's also not a viable alternative um I don't know if you want me to address the Wetland setbacks questions but just real quickly there's different setbacks from the wetlands different surfaces require different setbacks a pool is considered a structure which requires a 50ft setback pavement has its own setback which is 30 ft we meet all Wetland setbacks um in this scenario well one question I have on the retention Pond um one person pointed out that it's instead of draining at the North End it's draining at the South End is there any comment you want I mean is it what are the pros and cons of having it discharge closer to pboro Road as opposed to well so what happens is all of that drains towards the typically you want the direct path to the Wetland so what or to the the end point so we have it towards the South because that's the natural direction of flow if we were to then Outlet it to the North we'd have to then create a w for it to make a turn and then head s so it's it's just not that's asking for backup issues and issues of the pond um not overwhelming and then not flooding back this way so optimally you just want to put the outlet towards the the direction of natural flow which is plan down to the right yeah but I mean if you had it if you had it flow out I mean you could I mean you're constructing it you can pitch it however you want and you could pitch it to release it the north no but again that runs into the same issues that we talked about earlier we'd have to expand the scope of work to then go more into the buffer zones to kind of redirect how that goes it's for a storm water structure so we think that's less considered to be less invasive than a permanent I mean then a you know a building structure or whatever still remove need remove a lot of trees I think right Casey could you for the next meeting would it be possible to get the fire department turn around diagram the autoturn plans MH um if they weren't submitted with this plan set I can certainly add them to the revised plan set okay would they be on their own or would they I'll add I'll add them as part of the the pl set that comes in so they're attached to the plan set okay and then would it also be possible so we can get an idea of what that retention Pond might look like um a side view of it like a profile yeah you mean just like Line work sketches in kind of a detail format yeah yeah of just so we can get an idea of how high it would look and in relative to the land around it uh just to go back to the fire department turns you're talking about into the site or around the culdesac uh into the site okay well also turning within the swep plan yeah sweat path analysis yeah yeah yeah this is just a statement that it wouldn't it would be we've approved it on a couple of other you know the subdivisions where instead of the turnaround on the right away we had a hammerhead right it would be nice if they had a right away Hammerhead here and leave the parking where it is out front and uh I mean I understand it's not it's Town property but this just makes this is this is a cluster here and and we're in just dealing with existing existing conditions and I'd love to see the water get resolved first before we move forward with anything well that's one of the reasons why I think it might be a good idea to have DPW director come in and and the fire department yeah and fire department so we can have that discussion with them about the the pros and cons and the trade-offs and what are some other alternatives that the town might be able to do in this case because flooding concerns aside it's a lot of wetlands that's being disturbed trees being yeah knocked down cuz we're still going to have that big paved area out front yeah and there's people going to probably still park there yeah so I mean I I mean we're we're changing it we that's a waiver on other jobs where we're going doing the Hammerhead instead of the circle so I don't know just a thought but I don't know what we could do I mean I guess if we are looking for input or or a conversation with DPW and fire and well I guess the DPW I mean uh the conservation's probably not looking for fire but if we're all looking to talk to um DPW maybe we could do that together yeah I don't think we can ignore the situation with the existing water right yeah the town has to address that at some point right and if we approve this project it may be 10 years from now before they address it right so we should try to bring it now to address him now and if Rodney can help with the state on the cat on the Calver or Simon or yeah well Simon okay um so do you have a list of what we're looking for from generally yes I have revisions to make responses that I have to make to the engineering letter um so you will see a revised set of plans from us addressing comments a response to comments um you'll also see the fire department turns added into the plans and then I will create a profile of how the pond will kind of interplay with the elevations of the site okay and then we will also be um I'll walk with the owner to discuss the fence and any potential Landscaping that we could add along the screening side of the dunshire drive properties even if the screening is not plant-based but if it's fence stock fence would be ideal the the there is an existing fence that goes along that now I understand it's in a state that um DCH Drive properties are not happy with so that's what we'll look at and see um cuz that's ultimately the best sense of screening that's going to be there at least in the the near term and you can get higher than the standard six feet high fence I know I had a neighbor that had lights coming in and I went to the town and got a permit and we put in eight or right anything over I think 8T is your max before you need a permit from the town but we got a permit so I think that's how we put in 10 ft so we wouldn't get their lights into our house and I don't see why you can't do the same is you can also look at the uh the light that's in that cuac who owns that town well probably the town owns the light but the pole itself is probably utility provider so the town could probably put a shield on that light if they have a if they could put a downward Shield it's pretty easy fix but I know the comment letter uh requested kind of a reduction in the lighting that's totally up to the town I don't have any control over that no I get that but what about and then what about the lighting that you're going to put in the parking lot in the back um the lighting plan it's all it would all have to be dark sky compliant with new Chumps lighting regulations so it's going to be less than 5,000 Kelvin uh downward shielded all that yeah yeah just have a a fast question or two if I might of course um I'm a little bit familiar with some of the geology up there a piece of land not far from that it's bottom land River Bottom land largely uh my experience is that you go down not very far and it's sand and gravel there is a layer yeah so I'm the question then is is the Culvert really the issue or is in fact the water level about the same on both sides of the Culver anyway and it's really just this is where this is where the uh uh the groundwater is well I do believe that that's part of the kind of Hydra hydrologic study that they're trying to do on the area to really determine what is the issue and why is it not moving yeah okay it could be that there is um a balance of elevation on both sides of the covert and that's a result of a high groundwater that wasn't accounted for originally um but again that's out of our hands and what we can do all I can do is propose what I can on my site to meet stormw water well I I ask mostly because it would be a Pity to take a whole lot of steps to try to alleviate a problem that you can't actually alleviate Mike based on concom discussions on another project in the area there is a an what you're saying may be true but there is also a culvert issue being blocked yeah I mean it's obviously a mix of both I I guess my question is how much of this is Culvert and how much of this is basic geology based on the discussion at kcom on the other project a lot of it is cver related okay because it sure would be nice to get that thing cleaned out yeah I do believe that that cver is having issues with debris blocking it in most scenarios it's too small right a 12-in pipe is if it's you know you can see if you walk up there after a storm we've got our Whirlpool going it's up almost to the road you walk across the street and it's slow okay so that answers the question right there effectively yeah is there another reason for that I don't know but I mean it clearly is not going it just can't get through okay okay thank you I think that's see it answers my question um okay I'll take a motion to continue yes well I we'll move to continue second okay all in favor when are we continuing to yeah well we did conservation for 14 days so we can do this as well okay um what's our schedule like in 14 days Becky do you know I do um let's see you have two new public hearings and a minor site plan review under administrative review so you have three new projects on October 23rd it's going to be kind of busy and sorry potentially a continuation for going do it the one after little right two new public hearings we'll push this to the one after so that will be the one after would be November 13th November 13th okay um i seconded y all right all in favor I hi Jo are you not voting I think you're voting now yeah you're alternate today you're voting I can vote this yes by okay sorry okay um thank you very much thank you thank you so next up we have uh Nancy Chen and Garrison please request for continuation I will move to continue uh I would like to amend that okay I move that we continue it one last time and request that she appear without any more continuations I think it's an excellent request yeah okay are we continuing it to October 23rd the next time yep yeah okay all right move to continue it to what is that October 23rd 23rd did Mike second did you second it yes okay that was sure yeah we had a motion in a second okay we're good um we had a second motion by Mike second by Chris all in favor I I okay um next up we have our schedule if you guys are wanting to leave we'll take a 30 second break and give you your opportunity to escape thank thank you thank you you so our next meeting is on the 23rd If I may could the board just make a motion to also continue the first continued public hearing which is a site plan and special permit request technically we need a motion here too that's true that's the one we always do right yeah I move to continue that to the next meeting second wait what is or continuing now the site plan special yeah oh sorry sorry yeah and I'll I'll provide actual long like a year ago like looked at different towns things and to what things were in common and what things were unique and then also did a general pass through our special permit rules and regulations so I'll try to summarize all that and bring it next next time okay great get the ball rolling okay um next up our schedule second oh do we have a second sorry second okay so motion by Chris second by Anita all in favor okay um we have a meeting on the 23rd of October and then we have our next meeting we getting in be getting into the holidays in November and um so we have our next meeting would be the 2 Thursday in November which is the 13th I mean Wednesday in November which is the 13th and then the next one is the night before Thanksgiving which I'm not going to be here um so I'm teasing no one's going to be here no so these are the dates that we are looking at the dates on the agenda so we're not going to have we wouldn't have a meeting on the 27th so the next meeting after that would be December December 11 okay got it and the only thing I would say is if if if it looks like we're getting too dense of a calendar to have one meeting in November and December might be not enough so we might think about either adding in the 20th of November or adding in the 18th of December if it seems like that's necessary um I don't know if people have a preference between those and I don't know I mean I think we should be able to make a decision about that by the next meeting if we need to do it but if everyone would be thinking about if we have to do another one which one you would prefer scheduling wise you said November 20th November 20th versus December 18th I think is everyone in accord with that as a tentative penil in plan okay liaison updates [Music] um the housing Advisory Board got cancelled so I have no I have no update um yeah just a short one so the zoning board of appeals met last week on October 3rd and there um there was U couple of continuances one of them was um the 40b that's been discussed from marose that was continue without discussion so it was a very short agenda and another smaller project which one on River Neck Road actually marose Avenue oh I'm sorry over nor Trump so that was continued so that was a very short agenda so I don't have a report on that anyone else Conservation Commission meeting met last night uh they started their hearing on this uh past project as well um and there was a special appearance by nibby the educational Beaver very um huge Beaver um and it's only 2 years old it's half the size it's going to be it's about 30 to 40 PBS right now um I once had a a baby beaver about this big right next to my foot cuz I was out doing Turtle tracking and I was standing on this little like high point in the Stream generally so I was just like pretty much standing in water and then and he was swiming around and he crawled up right next to me and then the must have been the mother father whatever was slapping the tail like very unhappy about this I just didn't move you notice how loud they can make a noise with their tail yeah it's quite something very loud anyway so it it was a really cool experience um it was the first appearance since her uh new status as an educational Beaver um and she did pretty well yeah she sat right there and ate yep why can't we get people like that at our hearings well Jane was talking about um some Partnerships that she'd like to do with the Conservation Commission um and uh the company that they work with Beaver Solutions because in the past when there's been flooding caused by beavers um David coun has been uh called in and when they call a Trapper um to take care of the Beavers they have to euthanize the Beavers they can't relocate them um so Jane is really trying to uh make people more aware of other potential solutions that might be out there um instead of relocating uh because like she said if if you remove the beavers and it's a good habitat for beavers others will move in um so she said uh there are plenty of Alternatives out there that they'd like to uh work with the town on so it was a good good discussion that might lead to some really really good uh improvements in the future of how those are handled and I was at the Board of Health that would met Monday night and um they're just waiting on ten hildr for um for the results of the um that the land owner was required to submit uh to hire uh basically to conduct a 21 e to submit that to DP and then they're waiting Board of Health is waiting hear back from d on that so that's basically on hold until there's material for them to review so they do they have any expectation of when that it will be forthcoming I don't think they have any expect particularly if they're waiting for D there's no time I mean is it like in the next month or in the next 10 years like yes conservation still waiting for natural heritage as well for that site that will be sooner that will be sooner um and then also they'll be discuss they deferred till next month the discussion of whether they'll take their meetings uh on have their meetings publicly available through Zoom so to for people to see it on Chels for T media so we'll see what they conclude from that and um and then other other than that it was some more routine boort of Health stuff so that project still goes through all the other continues to the the end even though they're yep yeah because they're independent I mean for one thing processes because of an possibility of an appeal being yeah okay I didn't know what the process was yeah so those process still still have to play out okay MH which is good oh yeah it's great they will have a lot more answers yeah I I'm looking forward to having that information available to us if and when it is or when it is I guess um okay um annual goals objectives I wanted to add something to this um I have been thinking a lot about last week's um North Road decision and thinking about the I mean I feel like we were a bit um hamstrung um and one of the things that we were hamstrung by that we could potentially Rectify is our own zoning parameters for the lot um I I mean I don't know if this is a possibility but it seems to me that we we at the end of the day were told by the lawyer that if if our if our setbacks Etc were met that we couldn't um have any recourse but kind of like the warehouse um amendment being prompted by a situation where we had a warehouse that we couldn't couldn't get out from under I wonder if there's some way we could tweak our zoning in such a way that we wouldn't have been quite so hamstrung I in this case I don't think there is because they bought they would have bought more Lots that's the problem they bought enough lots to to not satisfy have an issue with our setbacks okay let's think we had changed the setbacks they would have added another property to their I I think we should do a zoning we should look at it revision subcommittee like that should start banging away at some of these things cuz I feel like we're not making much progress and um Time Marches On like you had the issue with the height in North Chumps remember those condos I can't hear you oh yeah yeah sorry like like we have like um I'm just the number of floors floor you're okay floors it's the number ofor right it was uh the stories of the tow houses in North chumford that were built it still meets the criteria 35 ft but they're four stories and the building code only allows three so but it's a definition of how that's counted like but in a subdivision we can't look at the elevation we don't look at the uh it's not part of our bylaws so that's something that should could change in our bylaws we could change that they have to propose the floor plans and the elevations maybe we could ask councel to help to help guide us and maybe I don't know remember you can have a subdivision yeah but the things that are built within that subdivision still have to abide yeah it's still the same Ru so you know it's just a matter of of whether you jump up and down uh at the subdivision level or you jump up and down well I just don't know how you how do you if it's allowed three stories and you have four how does that get by the building inspect yeah that well that is a good question and one which then they have walk up attics and then they took out the walk up staircase but then now the people that are buying it are putting staircases back in so they're going to get four stories so I mean it doesn't make sense did they call that a loft storage space or some weird thing I think that that's roughly what they did but they put Windows all up in there so it's a full size you know the same thing as if you develop the garden level I mean the garden level is the basement some places that's their basement that's their basement they're calling it but it's on grade right you walk right in so I don't know it's just technicalities the uh biling inspector up there for that one there looked at it and he has approved it but then any everything after that has no windows above or anything but the first couple that were built are truly full of stories right I mean I I watched the meeting where somebody came and spoke about that yeah it's still there go take a look they're big big big town houses but it is what it is it's okay so if we were to develop have a zoning revision subcommittee mhm we have our I would like to have that question looked at if there's some way we could have look with the Retros with the benefit of the retrospectoscope if there's something that we could do right that would have given us more ability to at least change this make it smaller or um what was our objective was our objective to stop a project or was our objective to make it comply to some particular set of standards that we well I think those are two different questions I think the sentiment of most people on the board and of the neighbors was that the the it was too big but we couldn't do anything about the size cuz the setbacks were there so I don't know if there's some way we could make it have not been make the size a a determinant I I I I guess I'm getting to a bigger qu question or problem that I see of us or seeing a project deciding we want some particular outcome to that project like stop it make it half the size whatever that may be and then running around looking for excuses that we can apply to swing the hammer on top of this project that may not really have anything to do with our our ultimate objective if our objective is we want it to be half the size then our rules are to say this is a maximum size question what would our rule be right I mean again and I think this was a very specific case cuz like it you know for me like it didn't I don't think that fit the neighborhood right I don't think that should go there right Point been through there yeah um yeah their point like do we need to tighten up our like what do we want this sound to look like do we need to tighten up up our zoning to make sure that things are not too big too high and a broader question to what degree should we decide what our town looks like and not a the more General market the way that life develops on this planet you know I don't think we get 100% uh right to dictate exactly what every house looks like in town or we're going to be telling people they can't put polka dots on meaning can vote on that they really should do well town meeting has to approve meeting would have to approve anything we proposed so like again in which case we've got the public element in there based off how many people have started to come to these meetings and like all the you know between you know we can list all you know from reason why half of us are on this board the last few years obviously there's a problem with our zoning because a lot of people are pissed off and so maybe we should look at at it and I think that's a valid point Deedra is to look at our zoning and or ask councel to help us or look at other towns I think it's worthwhile I was not on the board at the time when the project that Mike referenced is discussed but I don't think anyone tried to kill it but to his point what's fair is fair if I'm developing a project in one part of town I should have to abide by the same stories that everybody you know the rules that apply to everybody else there shouldn't be somebody that can you know dust around the corners and somehow you know evade what we're trying to do yeah yeah nor nor should we unequally apply one standard on one right applicant and then not apply on remember when we have a project in front of us we do not have the town in the back of the room we have the neighborhood in the back of the room the rest of the town is largely somewhere else uh so we we should we should never mistake all the neighborhoods in town so we're getting we're hting them one by one they all seem to be coming out they all seem to be you know ups there's angst every time some developing something next door to me right this town you know through that these people you know they're coming they spent a year and a half coming to these meetings yeah they did so if there's something that we need to do that we know of something that we you know maybe de your point North Road or north chumford or or whatever river is there something we can do that can make it better without you know know closing the door to all development because that's not what our Point here I'm not looking to do that but got be balance there has to be a balent we're willing to accept the town the town meeting ultimately decides that true so they have been doing so for 70 or 80 years we've already identified areas that we want to focus so why don't we do that yeah that's what we need to do focus on the particular problems and I would like to add to that if other people don't disagree that particular point that we just recently experienced where I felt um uncomfortable with the outcome and felt like there was nothing I could do about it and it might have just been the do Amendment and we were I think anything we put in place would have gotten overwritten that I don't think there's anything we could have done and that's the that's the same kind of problem you run into with Comprehensive permits on the zba there's just the Criterion that you have are are so much more that you just have to be more accepting of things you don't want yep because the state just doesn't give you the ability to make those kinds of decisions like for example for us you know on in the recent case we were concerned about pedestrian safety on uh as a traffic concern in the case of of a comprehensive permit you have to show that there's actually going to be a a real honest to goodness traffic Hazard you know in order to even have a hope of maybe passing appeal so you know I think the Dover is that kind of a thing where just a big road block it's it's just it just means that you can't apply the things you're used to applying so I think your point is well taken we should at least be aware of what things we can apply and at least know what what tools we have in our toolbox mhm yeah I want to Avail myself of the tools in the toolbox exactly and know that I did that and I wasn't confident of that yeah and that might just be my not knowing enough um okay so what do you think should we should we assign should we does anyone want to volunteer for a zoning rewrite subcommittee to attack the pro I don't think we should take that on I think we should focus on the areas that we've already identified well that's what that's what they okay but for those particular areas yeah let's let's let's not are we not going to talk about them in the work sessions I think we should I think we should put on the agenda like let's CU now we got fall town meeting coming up so this we're working for is Spring toown meeting which is in that far away right so we should the areas that we identified I know one of them was um on 27 that corner there Corner Kate's corner thank you yeah um I can't remember the other ones but I 129 yeah let's just one or two and do them right if if we give ourselves too broad a a pallet we're not going to get anything done correct but I think you know like we've got some low hanging fruit let's get let's work on those so we can get okay so what should we do Kate's Corner as a work session at the next before the next meeting yeah yeah and if we don't have too long of everybody pull out the zoning map everybody study it everybody you know all right let's do that okay next up we have I don't know we don't to my knowledge still don't have the criteria is that right we do not all right so there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff here to Chomp through while we wait for the criteria so let's just already be up to speed when the criteria come could we take this off the agenda until the criteria come yep yeah let's do that that's good idea same thing with plane bylaw because we don't have the map yet correct I don't believe so okay so those will get tabled until we actually have the information then we'll put them back on y great um all right and then we have uh no meetings minutes minutes and so I will take a motion make so moved or did you beat me to it mik moving and Anita seconding sure all in favor I okay thank you e for