##VIDEO ID:jjwqdl93ep0## good morning everyone I'd like to welcome you to the committee of the whole work session supporting community Through quality public service today our meeting is starting at 10:30 today on October 15th and we have a couple of guests with us this morning we have Kyle Stover and Tom Hall both from the US Forest Service welcome thank you good morning all right good morning we're looking forward to having some updates from the Superior National Forest and uh so we'll turn the program over to you awesome so I have sort of an intent of doing this at least on a yearly basis and it's only taken me two years to actually get it uh booked and on the schedule and so we're doing good um but the idea is just to come and check in right um there are lots of things that occur on the Superior National Forest that occur within Cook County uh I've done this already uh with Lake County and we're still working on St Louis County but I've been before their board a couple different times on other topics as well um but you know the the business that is the forest service and how that interacts uh within your county and um the constituents uh that come from the forest service all of those sorts of things uh that we're trying to do on National Forest system lands knowing how much of the forest um occurs in Cook County uh obviously is significant so uh I have four topics we'll see if I can get through this in the time allotted uh but hopefully it's meaningful for us to talk through so the first one is emergency response and so uh obviously this year and we're sort of coming maybe out of our fire season a little bit hard to see we're still in fire restrictions uh not knowing what kind of moisture we got and how that affected uh the fire indices uh that risk they're having a conversation this morning uh at the task force within uh the menx organization so that's the state the forest Service uh other Federal entities uh and local entities of what that fire risk looks like um what that severity looks like uh obviously our bodal fire season we normally have one early spring and we normally have one fall our fall has gone a little bit longer than typical um and we at least last week we were in record setting indices uh for fire risk and so that's why we we went into fire restrictions in coordination with uh the state um and the the boundary wat is a little bit prior to that um because we are seeing a lot of human-caused uh fires and you know that impacts everybody and we wanted to prevent that um Nationwide uh we've been providing and supporting Nationwide fire response um really all summer and so a rather large Fire season um with our fire resources and really non-fire resources also supporting um what we think of as planning level four and five and so that draw down of resources um and we'll talk a little bit about our staffing issues within the forest service um that impacts us Nationwide and so it's just that drain on resources has just been heightened and so we've been bouncing between four and five five meing the highest level Nationwide uh for the last few months and so um as we have seasonal employees that are going uh back to school or being laid off and all those sorts of things that drain on resources has continued to hit us as an agency um obviously the June 18th storm uh event um that actually impacted more of other counties than it did Cook County but there were impacts here um you know we had temporary Road uh closures um mostly inacessible areas in Cook County from the June 18th um storm damage um but as you sort of transition through the NorthShore obviously the tofy district uh was hit harder than the Gunflint District uh and then as you sort of go into the center of the forest that's where we had the biggest amount of damage uh and I think we're down to seven roads that are still closed from that and most likely will be continue to be closed uh until we're able to get that longterm repair money from federal highways and so that's maybe 2026 unfortunately um the wheels of government move slow when it comes to Big funding amounts um obviously we've had other types of impact including the grade being closed um that was a construction um issue that impacted that closure um but we're kind of approaching those closures in a similar way we're trying to be very transparent trying to be early in the information that we know uh and then uh share that information in multiple modes uh as much as we're able to um and then the last thing sort of with emergency response search and rescues um um somewhat of an average year uh with search and rescues um across the The Boundary Waters and really outside of the Boundary Waters as well um you know that interaction that we have with the county sheriffs because that's the jurisdiction it's their responsibility um we try to support that both um with our resources especially the beaver uh when that's appropriate um but within the boundy waters we still have Wilderness restrictions and so motorized use that coordination is really key we recognize it's an emergency it's their jurisdiction and so you know where appropriate um and in most cases we're trying to find that solution um and we'll authorize what they're asking for um but we just ask that they try to understand um that you know it's a non-motorized area and if they can access that um support that emergency response for search and rescue um again continuing to work on those relationships and make sure that everybody understands where we're at uh I I really do feel both in Cook County and the other counties uh we're in a really good spot those relationships have been improved um the general populace that goes into the Boundary Waters there's kind of especially during uh the pandemic and after the pandemic um there's not a lot of people that are understanding the situation that they're getting into and their ability to take care of themselves or self- extract and so um we've had more false alarms um and the county sheriffs have valid ated that for us that um you know that's a drain on their resources as much as ours definitely not a situation that we want to be in and so trying to improve that education for the general populace um and find solutions to make sure that we're able to do what is need to be done at the time any questions with emergency response go ahead commissioner Johnson when you're talking about education and um I'm wondering if you're working with our local visit Cook County on that yeah okay yeah we actually have agreements and obviously I'll jump ahead uh Kyle Stover is our new District Ranger uh out of the Gunflint ranger district um not really new to the forest um but you know developing and strengthening those relationships as well and so um when we're thinking of the Gunflint Trail when we're thinking of just in general The Boundary Waters um all of those are relationships that we're trying to strengthen uh to improve that education um whether that's our front desk or our Wilderness Rangers our social media our press releases um all of the the permit issuance whether it's through Cooperators or through ourselves um all of those are opportunities for us to engage and try to improve understanding and education so um trying to exercise that as much as possible this last year we actually entered into an agreement um with the elely tourism Bureau um and we did a podcast and we did uh all sorts of uh educational opportunities through that and so um we could definitely explore other opportunities in the future um with visit Cook County and WTI talking podcast they have other podcasts they do absolutely so that would be another Avenue to get that word out there lot of people that visit listen to wtip yeah absolutely probably more than live here and I want to ask about the grade yeah it's critical it is we recognize it so is it an engineering issue with the bridge or is an environmental issue with the bridge and isn't it can't isn't there an emergency funding available we can make that happen sooner than what you're so we that's a little bit different timeline than the federal highways money that is an engineering issue and so we had to go back into that engineering design to make sure that it's long enough um because they actually ran into stability issues with the current the the first design and so it just takes time to actually be able to go and put that bridge in place with the new design and so all of that okay so that was that was an unintended outcome for sure yes I I mean that's pretty serious and I've had two people call me saying there's not enough signage now I did drive up one end and like kind of say it on this end but I don't know what the other end so we've we've had issues with people not understanding what that is and so we did put a closure in and we put barriers and all of those other types of things recognizing that what people see and what they understand maybe that needs to be OV exaggerated sometimes just heads up in that yeah I appreciate it I got phone calls yeah no and we recognize that and that's not a place that we want to put you in um again say it's your problem we are we are trying to fix that as quickly as possible but unfortunately that's going to be the spring early summer before the ground thaws enough to actually put that back in place thank you yeah so the next we thing is uh integrated vegetation management and so thinking Timber sales or prescribed fires um so overall um you know the the tofy landscape project part of that comes up into Cook County uh we're in the cycle two now um and so continuing to implement that continuing to have Timber sales that occur both in cook and Lake County from that project there are multiple different projects uh that have been signed uh on the uh um Gunflint ranger district as well whether that's the blue Cascade project or even going back to Kimble or um yeah how many others there's there's several shoko the mid Trail area or twin greens is another project along the gunin trail and areas so overall planning is not a restriction on this Forest uh we're in a really good spot with the amount of authorization that we have it really comes down to the the contractors available to us um whether that's Timber industry it's a marketable product or fuels reduction projects um and so those are limitations as you all experien trying to get people up here um from that business environment obviously um having the mill here is hugely helpful and that market for products to go to but there's only so much that they can take and um a certain product that they're looking for and um obviously the spruce budworm uh issues that we've been having you know that starts to overwhelm the system if that's all that we're offering and so we're very mindful of that um but as that has continued to move to the east um you know that's that's an impact that we're trying to mitigate both from a fire uh risk standpoint and what are we capable of doing out on that landscape it is a natural cycle Spruce budworm the next cycle that follows Spruce budworm is tent caterpillars and so um like unfortunately this will continue to be an issue that we're going to manage in perpetuity right um this is a fire adapted or a disturbance uh adapted ecosystem if you don't have fires on a consistent bases other disturbances take that uh place and so you know recognizing that that's part of our Management on that landscape um trying to mitigate that as much as possible trying to both reduce that risk and to um realize those economic opportunities are the balance that we're trying to shoot for um both in Cook County and across the Forest commissioner you know F how what the frequency of the T C cycle is and I don't need a year necessarily but I I remember when I was a kid I grew up in Grand Rapids driving to duth to watch my aunt Running Grandma marathon and the road being unsafe yeah because it was just so slick with bugs and and I didn't know if that was the last time or if it was just a big time so I think the last time that we had um Spruce budworm was in the' 60s that was the really big uh 60s and then again we had a large event in the 80s as well and then Forest tent in the90s and there's an alteration there between you know Forest tent you know affects Hardwoods and deciduous trees and Bud burms fix kind of for trees and yeah there's a there's a relationship there inter so love having a Civic culturist in our dist Ranger position and then of course I think the last time we we spoke together um I was asking about biochar if there is any movement or development around that there's talk nationally about it and of course I didn't know locally if there was stuff going on so from an economic development standpoint you know there's always conversations being had um actually we are working really closely right now with the research Community both our Forest Products Laboratory and the northern research station both within the forest service um on two research proposals that are funded by um infrastructure money and so one of those is using uh biochar so taking fuels reduction work happening on the Superior National Forest converting that into biochar and then converting that into like insulation and uh other types of high-end products um so that's something that's already been developed the other science different conversation good luck with that the other conversation that we're having with research is that life cycle analysis um and using biochar to potentially go into coal ash remediation um and so that's uh One path that they're looking of how to use biochar for that stabilization of unstable um situations um whether that's mining or coal ash or any number of opportunities for that bio uh biochar but we're also looking with research as part of that of what is that life cycle what is that carbon um analysis of that whole cycle of you go out and identify here's the need um through the implementation through the conversion to biochar into the remediation right what is that whole carbon cycle um and that helping in that overall economic analysis of is it worth it or not so we're kind of excited about that if that does develop into another market for us that is just more places that the the work that needs to occur out on the landscape can go and then also just how is the forest service involved in soil Health at all probably forest soil Health yeah and just you know a little bit familiar with bioch the impacts on soil health and so I just putting it out there but I was just curious with climate change and um Timber sales just what's anticipated for the future things will be changing if there's any I guess it wouldn't be fun but interesting Dynamics going on with with these sales and replanting and all that sort of things yeah shifting so we actually have an assisted migration plan Kyle actually helped to write that um and has helped to implement it as we continue to move forward uh lots of conversations that we've had with the tribes and in Timber industry and you know all of those Balance of you know what how much do we Undertake and what does that look like um and so we there's multiple levels of assisted migration and you know wanting to keep the these Landscapes forested is really our intent right um and not introduce exotic um species into the system that's really you know what are those species that already exist on the landscape how do we take genetic stock from maybe warmer climates that those same species and introduce them that because they're better adapted how do we take species that are maybe at the edge um of these Landscapes and maybe introduce them as they continue to progress North and then really that's the limit of how far we would go with assisted migration um so those are definitely things that we're thinking about um you know warmer climates warmer Winters especially um what that looks like for disturbance regimes um you know potentially we're at the southern um range of the Boreal forest and so everything shifts North and so this becomes more more of uh a Pine Oak Savannah sort of landscape as you sort of think of that moving North that's what's to the south of us and so maybe that's what this develops into all of that is a little bit unknown but how do we keep this as a forested landscape how do we preserve what we can those are some of the intent that we have but there's not much that we can do to prevent the change from occurring and so we're not planting Red Oak yet or as far as replanting are concerned so we have our assistant migration plan is uh focused on it's more of a toolkit for our planning process it's not not necessarily a proposal but it's collecting the best science available our set of checklists and um how we go about Consulting with the tribes and also um working with our partners in public scoping to um tailor how we plant a lot of it is focus on Native species that are just bringing that genetic stock further north but um Oaks have been it's an interesting issue on the shore just because it's it's got interactions with both deer and moose habitat so that's been some concerns brought forward so we approach that one with some degree of caution okay of uh when we enter those projects make sure we're asking the right questions sure yeah thank you yeah so that is actually on our website our assisted migration plan so you can look into that more um and again that's kind of a overall strategy that each of our projects can sort of tier under um and then there's a public engagement process comment process as we do each of those projects so you know if there's concerns we're trying to delve into that including tribal consultation public engagement all those sorts of things other things related to integrated veg management uh the collaborative Wildfire risk reduction uh Pro program so we submitted five projects uh one for the Gunflint district one for the tofy one for kishu and lacroy um um and then one for the Moose habitat uh restoration as well which is in alignment with um the Moose habitat collaborative which includes the tribes and the state uh and the work that we doing we've been doing with the state under the America the Beautiful Grant uh unfortunately we were only we only received two so fortunately we receed two both at 5 million unfortunately for Cook County those occurred in the Kish uh and lroy Ranger districts so great work that we're going to be able to do for RIS reduction in those areas but those other three proposals that we developed are honestly still things that we're going to continue to pursue um for funding opportunities into the future um and especially uh the Moose habitat uh restoration work um so the work that the state has been doing the opportunities for funding both within State funding and federal funding we think will'll continue to compete well for that and that includes both work both within the Gunflint ranger district and the tofy district um other types of opportunities whether that includes the tofy landscape project or the projects that occur on the Gunflint ranger district again we'll start to package those into other funding opportunities into the future so there's still lots of needed work out on the landscape we recognize that funding is the limitation and if we can find a commercial opportunity for that to go it can pay itself out of the woods that's the ideal do you have a question I just had a question about Staffing and how Staffing plays into all of this yeah so let's move to Staffing so overall um the forest service has implemented uh an external hiring free so we're not bringing new people from outside the agency into the agency except for our firefighting organization um and so recognizing that health and safety um need that we have law en ment also exists um that we're bringing outside uh people so law enforcement and firefighting sorry so for so fuel's reduction does not fall so part of part of part of the organization those skill sets are within that and it really comes down to we have um budget line items in our Appropriations and included within that is our salary and expense and so how much do we have the opportunity so um there's kind of primary fire those that are suppression those are absolutely moving forward the prevention thinking of that risk reduction those fuels organization there's a little bit more of a question of you know how much do we have money in the system to do those sorts of things so because of the budget issues that we have as an agency we're not hiring from outside the agency except for those health and safety sort of roles that impacts especially our entry level positions across the board so you think of our front desk you think of our Wilderness Rangers or Recreation people our Timber or Civic culture or fuels or any of those right that most of our people come from the local community or from colleges from outside the agency to do work within the forest service and those people put together when you're thinking integrated veg management those people put together the contracts and the packages go out and do the field work um so we can offer up sales or put together contracts for risk reduction or agreements or those sorts of things um and so we'll have limitations in what we're capable of doing and then since we have sort of these buckets of money from Congress right some of that is for salary and some of that is for project work um those are also going to be limited so I don't have Alternatives of here's money that I can put into a contract to do that instead so our capacity as a forest is limited right now which is kind of interesting given that we came from this era of Plenty right you think of the in infrastructure law the inflation reduction act like we had a bunch of money in the system and now we're coming out of that and because of the Appropriations that are expected or potential we are down to hey we we actually can't pay for all of the the things in our system and so those are those are the decisions that have been made at the National level right this is not a Superior National Forest issue this is not an Eastern region issue this is a forest service issue and so we are just reflecting that across um the agency so for us we've already seen the summer uh impacts to our front desk Staffing we had to change office hours for both here in Grand morray and in tofy we had to change that in cook um we will see that we've transitioned into our winter hour not as big of an impact but as we go into this next summer we're going to see that again of there's limitations of what we're going to be capable of doing and so we're going to have to triage our front desk Staffing um first it will be elely because that's our heaviest use then it will be grand marray that's our second heaviest use and then beyond that there will be limited hours if not closures in some of our offices um of how we're Staffing the front desk that's also how do we go and clean uh Rec s sites how do we um make sure that we're doing the right thing out in the land um in The Boundary Waters with digging latrines and cleaning portages and any of those other sorts of services and so how do we meet those critical needs knowing that we don't want to close the Boundary Waters um so how do we triage those other programs to make sure that we're capable of uh providing those services and so that's really the mode that we're in right now uh and there's trade-offs right um if somebody shifting from one thing into another I'm not I'm less capable of doing that in another place so we're squeezing a balloon right we'll do this thing over here and this goes away right so education impacted as well yeah so the current staff that we have uh we actually have as big as we've ever had on this Forest one of the largest public affairs shops that we have and so I don't know if you've noticed it but a lot more engagement both in Social media um engaging with traditional media just trying to be engaged in the local communities um so that's really important we want to continue that where we're capable of that but a lot of that is our front desk right how we inter interact on a day-to-day basis so where we're capable of doing that still offering that high level of service but recognizing that's not going to occur in all the places that we've done previously that is going to shift a larger burden onto our Cooperators um those businesses that have a cooperating agreement with us to offer permits um if tofy is not available if Grand marray is the priority it'll be open tofy maybe not as much that shifts that burden onto those other Cooperators to help us to accomplish that permit issuance for the boundary lers my limited time of the forest service um showed that different Cooperators have different levels of Education um providing different levels of yeah so we're going to we're going to work on that as well um so because of the the permit fees that we get from The Boundary Waters there's a different money system of you know how we could potentially enter into a contract to clear portages and dig latrines right maybe even staff our front desk because there's a direct tie especially during the permit quota season of the people coming in and interacting with us helping to staff our front desk but also doing that audit on those Cooperators of the service that they should also be providing and so we're exploring those opportunities as well it has improved good that's great and it's very appreciated absolutely this last year especially um I think the other notable thing is obviously we now have a permanent District Ranger in Grand marray for the gunin ranger district um which we are ecstatic about uh and Kyle you've been in place a month and a half two uh it August 12th was official day yeah so you have housing you're not living in the office yeah so he's been with us for a while so thankfully hiring internal was a really good play CU it wasn't somebody trying to come in and find a place to live he got the he got the local knowledge and experience and do you want to introduce yourself a little bit of your background sure so um yeah while I briefly introduce myself here but my name is name is Kyle Stover um I've actually been a Cook County resident uh it'll be 14 years in March so and I've worked in Grand Portage as a Tribble uh employee that's how I came here and came over to the forest service in 2015 so I've worked in Grand morray tofy and had a lot of involvement in Isabella as well so I have a pretty good lay of the land um I already have a back some background knowledge of you know a lot of County issues but uh that being said I don't want to make that assumptions either so I think part of what I want to do coming in this job is coming and how do we uh keep those lines of communication opens how do we have those conversations how do we continue to work together um one of the things we've been doing with our public affairs shop um we tried to implement this like on our on the grade closure for instance when we elevated that to a forest closure how do we integrate with the uh with our partners especially at the county so we reached out to visit Cook County with Linda as well as um as Robie with the highway department my Keyport and we're trying to get ahead of some of those things as they come out be um so they're not coming out as surprises to you but also how that facilitates uh the communications going to in the future so um but that's just one example me I'm here I'm trying going to make myself available and uh engage in a lot of different County groups you know with if an emergency response or um the gun FL Trail Scenic byway or different areas of the county yeah I'm looking forward to it so we'll be sending lots of invitations your way I've been getting plenty so far awesome and when is the open house that we're going to have for the district that is uh November 13th yeah coming up it'll be 4: to 7:00 p.m. at the Gunflint ranger district and yeah it's we're trying to have these open houses that are NE not necessarily tied to any project it's more just a come one and uh get to interact with a bunch of our staff ask questions about while I Timber fuel reduction or Wilderness and um certainly will be available there and we like to have those conversations went last yeah it's a sure bet no bars maybe awesome any questions on Staffing I think that's very helpful just to to lay it out so not not only for us but for the public and absolutely so the last thing that I have on my list is the Boundary Waters um so we've stood up The Boundary Waters collaborative we actually met for our second in-person meeting last week over in elely um hopefully our next inperson will be here in Grand marray um but that's a broad range of stakeholders um from across multiple different um perspectives trying to understand what our management uh actions what those those effects are out on the landscape potentially uh develop better education develop better communication and if possible collaborative initiatives um and having that broad range of stakeholders that help us uh develop proposals is kind of the the ultimate intent if we can get there but if nothing else that improved communication and education is a benefit uh for me to engage and then our district Rangers and staff uh to also engage uh as we have those opportunities so we've had um multiple different virtual opportunities uh to engage with that collaborative over the summer we've stood up uh three work groups one related to Vis visitor management with a subgroup focused on reservations and permits another one focused on uh fire management so whether that's um suppression or uh prescribed fire uh and looking at you know all of those different aspects and then the third one being uh air quality water quality invas to species and climate change um and so those are um not driven by the forest Service as topics that we specifically wanted we engage with all of those um but it's really the that broad range of stakeholders of what they want to focus on and how we can uh improve in our engagement in all of those different things so that's one positive thing uh we've been moving forward on the forest plan Amendment related to The Boundary Waters uh we did that public engagement process earlier this spring we're continuing to move forward on that uh We've entered into an agreement with the University of Montana uh and they're going to do surveys of those permit holders from this last year to understand how they um planned there and actually traveled in the Boundary Waters uh to update what we call our travel model that'll then help us to develop our proposed action so we're thinking sometime in mid 2025 um we'll come out with a proposed action of that framework uh for our forest plan uh and an update related to the boundary wers um and you know there's a whole range of Alternatives that we'll analyze but this will be our first best shot at what we would propose to change within our forest plan and really what I want to do is look at those foundational assumptions that we have of okay we have entry points and we have designated campsites and we have uh a statutory cap right there's law 1978 act that said this is how much use can occur out there including motorized use and other types of use what that impact is on Wilderness character so those authorities those law regulation and policy that we function under what are those range of Alternatives that we analyze and what that looks like into the future knowing that you know use has changed and climate change is potential changes on that landscape um how do we want that to move forward into the future and obviously those have impacts on local economies and they have impacts on how people engage with the Boundary Waters and so analyzing what those impacts might look like um if we do make changes and so hopefully we can be engaged um with the county and all of the different organizations in Cook County as we continue to move that forward as well and then the last thing that I have um is the school trust uh acquisition um and so there's sort of three aspects to that project that we recently scoped uh School trust being the largest the 80,000 acres uh of school trust lands within the Boundary Waters there's also the conservation fund lands um that they were a part of the previous iteration there 177,000 Acres within St Louis County that they acquired um that were going to be a part of a exchange and purchase um alternative that one3 2/3 um that we've moved away from and then St Louis county is also interested in the tax forfeited lands um within the Boundary Waters and so we we proposed a project that included all of those obviously the impact for Cook County is those School trust lands and those 880,000 Acres that occurred within the Boundary Waters I don't know the number of Acres that occur within Cook County um but the proposal um that we've moved towards is a direct purchase um obviously we've closed that comment period we received over 1,400 comments um that really span the gamut right uh positive negative uh and we're still evaluating what that looks like um a lot of that is determined on the state's Authority and those politics within the state of how they want to approach this process and then some of those are our Authority um to do a direct purchase as well and so we're evaluating what all of that means um dependent on how that sort of plays out both for the state and what we determine for our Authority we would potten still move forward with that purchase of school trust lands sometime in 2025 um the state has to take legal action to condemn those lands to then offer those for sale we could not make a decision on that until they do make an offer of sale to the forest service and so there's a lot of things that still need to occur before um that's even a possibility but um definitely something that we're still focused on and still potentially moving towards any questions I'm curious about how you determine the value of the 80,000 acres in The Boundary Waters yeah so they've actually already done a previous uh appraisal of that um and they look at large land tracks um as comparable appraisals right and so there's professional appraisers that we contract with uh that do that valuation for us we have certain criteria that they have to meet for our federal acquisition process um but beyond that it's the normal appraisal process um through the open market uh that we tap into so um they're working through that right now okay well I was just curious because you think about Timber value you think about mining value you think about um the value of lakes Shore that is the one that pops into my mind right away and so just making sure and the complicating factor of wilderness right and how does that impact those valuations not my bailey Wick U but definitely deferring to those professionals okay thank you other questions commissioner s yeah so so how how might the sale impact the county so overall once we Mo if we do acquire these lands um those would sort of fall into that bucket of payment in Le of taxes right and you know as that occurs for um the ti BL Mick um appraisal when that occurs in 2028 um the timing of this there would most likely be some sort of payment inl of taxes under secure rural schools or another form of pilt payments that would occur prior so if this occurred in 20125 2026 if we acquired it by then um all the realy actions there would be that sort of pill to payment is how I understand it until 2028 when that new appraisement for Ty blatnik would occur and then those would be included this is how I understand it um in those tiic appraisals as that moves forward into the future beyond that um we would manage that as Wilderness it would not be official Wilderness until Congress takes some sort of action but under our forest plan it's already as soon as we were to acquire it it would fall under our forest plan designations um if we went through the forest planning exercise um we might say these are propos Wilderness and that would give it another layer of hey we're going to manage this is Wilderness but until Congress takes action it's not official Wilderness any other questions or comments read their time or well I had another one but I got distracted so well thank you very much we really appreciate you coming and informing us and the public as well yeah hopefully this was helpful and hopefully doing this on a reoccurring basis would also be helpful we will make sure to do that yeah it's extremely helpful I'm really lucky to have representation here meeting thank you awesome thank you all right thanks so much we appreciate you coming today yeah Abol have a great all right thank you all right well we will get ready to move on to item C which is our Highway Department policy presentations I see we have a couple members of our Highway Department here to uh help inform us as uh we're looking at these policies these are um some small changes but sometimes small is mighty yes and uh so we're very appreciative that you could be with us today to talk about those anticipated changes hello thank you hey herey weo uh yeah so there's we've been working on as commissioner Johnson and commissioner white can test two in our Highway committee meetings bright and early Thursday mornings lots of policy discussions lately so maybe not the most riveting things to start your Thursday morning with but hey got to do it um so these three in particular kind of where we'd like to start there'll be more coming down the pipeline as we get to them um but I guess we'll kind of just starting top to bottom so our subordinate District policy um as you're aware that's been existence now I believe for four did say four years five years somewhere in there um in this one you know we have a number of subordinate districts in the county I believe was it nine yeah it's it's always evolving yeah somewhere in there um but but it is a more recent you know as long if this policy is new subordinate districts are not so we've had some dis some of these districts have been around for decades some are brand new um and so there've been more recent ly as you know people move up here um and we get more and more questions about it um more of them are occurring and so questions were coming up more and more about you know we'll get into it roles of the uh roadway representative what is our actual involvement with those what is um the constituents of that District's involvement so I'm not going to go through and read this line for line it sounds terrible uh but but what we what we did is really what I took out of it was if there are questions that we came out of our Highway committee with that's what I wanted to bring here and that was kind of part of the bigger discussion um and so I guess just kind of starting right under purpose the first paragraph something we talked about a lot was you know some of these districts are on Forest Service and DNR roads um do we want to put it into policy that we should work with them on getting material because then that's a whole other Avenue where you know the forest service or the DNR doesn't have to provide material say to put down on a road sometimes they do sometimes they don't but it just came up in discussions of do we want to have that in policy as we need to do that talk to them or is it just like H good practice for us to do and so that was kind of question one that came out I don't know if we want to discuss as we go along or sure that's not F yeah okay what do you guys think what what happens now and what is the current situation well right now so we you know uh a district say you lived on a road that didn't get you know plowed and graded and graveled by us um but you were part of this District what would happen is you would your group your subordinate District would determine do you want winter Services summer Services both and what does that look like and so say that looked like putting down a certain amount of gravel every single year um so what that would be then is that goes in your bid that bid goes to a contractor you pay for the material um what we've heard in other I don't know if it's in our subordinate districts maybe it's Road associations more which we aren't involved in but is where the forest service or the DNR might have material that they are willing to say here you go and then the person you know the the road way the road Association would then spread the gravel so free free material but you have to put it down the only example of that currently in practice would be Irish Creek which only receives winter Services you know in summer it is a uh I believe DNR Road um and so that's up to the DNR to maintain that roadway they are not a summer sgsd MH so it's dealing with those kind of situations so commission yeah the question is to what degree do we want to engage the other agencies correct and so in my mind like I think that's a good idea uh in practice I don't know right right is it is it practical what liabilities are there what benefits are there and so what do I know about it right like well in in conversations we've had with both those entities it's you know it's you have people that live on a road people demand more service than say timber hauling requires sure and so so you know um and so really if that road if the road is serving the purpose of the for the for service or the DNR then anything above and beyond that when we've had conversations with them is typically viewed as I don't want to say unnecessary but something that isn't a priority then you know the people that are there now are the ones that are kind of that's why we have these support districts yeah well I mean like I said I think it's a good idea but um I just don't know it feels like just one more thing on your plate to have to check off for no for no benefit but so we could have it inability there that I'm not aware of so that's like well I think one you know and I don't know that we need to address it or you know fix it today but I think the one thing this points towards is uh if there's and I'll bring up Onion River Road for an example uh a road that uh the the you know Foresters won't pay for plowing it's not a county road so we don't plow it um and there are other entities who may or may not be paying for it to be plowed how does how does it get service um and so if it if it if the only easy alternative is become an sgsd and it's a forest service road then should it be addressed in this how that how that whole relationship works and so I think right now it's a little bit of a maybe potentially a hole in the policy because if if unless we're going to start keep adding roads to or or changing jurisdictions to roads more of these roads will become an issue than less was that a that's a solution that wasn't a solution that's I like so what and maybe this first part is just more of a guidance thing CU it's not you know policy I feel like is some things we can enforce right rules to follow this is more of a hey if we know Irish Creek Road is a DNR Road and we know just in theory if they wanted summer Services well we at least know who to contact at the DNR to say hey do you have gravel um and okay can we do we leave that out of the bid then and say the only thing that then this subordinate district will bid for is the spreading of that gravel because the DNR will give some something like that so we can just leave it as guidance but then the highway department is doing the footwork man not the labor rather than the subordinate District people right so that's more public more government time to do this and the subordinate districts is not to be a burden on our highway department so then it could be here's the contact for the DNR right you guys figure it out right that important distinction though I mean does that does that feel like you're hanging out there or it's still a hole if we just have it as guidance or no I think that's fine I mean it's what it is and this this by no means is a perfect solution to our growing issue we have up here this could be an annual presentation it's a way that we're addressing what are the staffing issues that you have what is your capacity given your current Staffing and then how do we prepare for what we know is going to be growth in the future so I see this as being something that will evolve and maybe it's annual maybe it's every few years but it's something that's going to be dynamic and will be changing and Realtors need to explain very clearly the people that buy property that nope winter comes you are on your own you're a mile to the road and you better have snow you want to live there yeah don't call us right or be a part of the association find out for your neighbors if there is an association there is something that you can join to right a group discussion and I I want to emphasize too that I don't think this policy is allinclusive by any means yet um I I get scenarios come up uh very regularly that I don't know how to deal with and I don't think this addresses yet for example we have sgss that are unwilling to grow uh meaning whoever the representative is does not wish to have more people involved for whatever reasons you know whether it's because they don't want higher taxes you know or a higher levy on their sgsd whatever um but then you have more properties being developed on that road so um yeah second s GSD there's and there's and if people don't buy into that idea of growing an sgsd then then what yeah you know that's there's no rules for that in here um so uh I like I said I think this is going to keep coming up as as these things um become more prevalent MH it sounds like like before I would want to include something in policy that we would have to have a much better relationship understanding with the other Road owners like the for service or the state just to be on that same page because right now it's just kind of right of and on or maybe or usually not or and some of it gets to the things we've talked about about Road jurisdiction and at what point is it just nope now you're a County Road you know we have that Authority you do we talk about some of those discussions yeah no but I mean they're they're they're honest ones they're very real ones and the more you know I feel like a very recent uptick in folks in the Tom Lake Area like very direct phone calls and several of them now at this point on why aren't you fixing xroad you know well yeah they need one out there um you know and so I think a lot of that is coming down the pipe much sooner than any of us would prefer um and it's just how do we want to do it we can keep doing this is a slippery slope into road jurisdictions really quick it honestly is or you know figuring out that but not to Sidetrack on road jurisdictions that could be a whole other thing um so I think I think at least in the first part it just S I think guidance is good um and then we have the the rep from the subordinate District we can provide a contact number but then they work it out with them say here's where you put it blah blah blah okay um under establishment that was kind of even though it's only a couple of short paragraphs was a lot of conversation there um the very first comment I have is kind of an initial condition assessment and there was a lot of discussion about who does that condition assessment and so what we kind of decided in committee was a third party prior to the formation of the subordinate District so that's not us that's not somebody on the road that's just somebody else so then the question was that's not free who pays for that and so the idea was do we add language that says at the expense of the subordinate District yes yes seems very straightforward I could follow that one pretty well all right um some of the other I'll just add you know the not topics of conversation that happened that were also in this establishment part had a lot to do with a roadway representative who gets to talk to who the flow of information and all of that we spent a lot of time I think going over that if if you guys remember and kind of what the committee landed on was it's not our responsibility to get involved with neighborhood politics and so just whoever your rep is we will talk to them if we cannot get a hold of them then there is an alternate we will get a hold of and that is that um we are not in the business of dealing with unresponsive roadway Representatives we are not in the business of dealing with he said she said they said then all that nope um it comes up a lot and so it I think it's we just wanted to kind of spell that out a lot more and also we don't need to have some fancy election I'm content if somebody sends me an email or sends Matt an email and says here's who our elected rep is does not to be some Google verified online poll it does not need to be yeah no I know it's anyways we spent a lot of time talking about so is there any questions up there and it I think so far we seems pretty fine okay um really the next things that came up at least for conversation came all the way down for the reimbursement part reimbursement for services and really the administrative fee um and I think the timing is good I think Brady had just sent an email about a uh upcoming meeting to talk about fee changes and so this was one of them so what we did as we reached out to Mis and the auditor's office just to see hey how much time are you guys spending on this because we knew none of that was reflected in here so the initial fee it's like the third pair or third sentence under administrative fee the initial fee before we did these revisions was $1200 and So after talking with each of those offices uh we upped it to $2,100 um it sounds like both uh let me see my notes auditor's office at least $300 for going over all the setup Mis can expect you know 10 hours per District 60 bucks an hour so $600 so we just said Okay add that in um any questions about that and generally how how a um sgsd is set up is it it starts in the auditor's office and then moves to us um and and I also want to include Mis because of Kyle's work with that I mean he does a lot of work as well so um yeah I know Brady was here briefly but right but yeah okay thank you yeah wonderful absolutely yeah um and then it might even be yeah at the very end so this was another big one and this will this will kind of open up a little can of worms here so really we just have it's called appendix a recommended Road vegetation clearance standard so the initial idea for this was just so emergency vehicles can get down the road um this spurred a lot of conversation because to kind of summarize it almost all of our subordinate districts don't meet this so what what do we want to do about that and and not only that but there are so many other things um turnarounds a lot of our subordinate districts don't have turnarounds well you need those you have a grater you have a plow truck you have whoever is doing your plowing needs to get turned around somewhere um again emergency vehicle access pability of the road the road condition is this part of the initial assessment um that we talked about before uh we did look at reassessing fees um is there anything else under this one no I mean um again this is this is only version two right um I'm sure version three will come out within the next couple years um and so an you know uh you know something that we had initially talked about was named this like required minimum standards but then to the point of none of our districts or most of them don't meet this do we leave it then as recommended but if it's recommended and nobody's following it why do we have it you know like why why are we going to say this is a thing if nobody's going to follow it what's the point right if there's no enforcement behind it if there's no you need to do this or you won't be a district anymore type of thing well the having the clear cutbacks from the road for emergency vehicles couldn't insurance companies say you know but whose responsibility is that to to say to the agents to say you know if you don't cut this back who knows you know but but there have been there are a number of places like just down on stonate where you drive in or a big Bay Road and the the trees are thick on each side the and and you kind of brush the side of your vehicle mhm going in and that's not a good thing to do yeah and we actually this this small paragraph in an sgsd policy is uh actually part of a larger discussion that we don't actually have a vegetative uh clearance policy or guideline for the county roads let alone the sgsd I say right yeah and so uh that's actually a larger issue of like uh and we don't have anything to lean on when the public says um you know you can't cut this tree uh because I live on a cartway or whatever you know there's there's examples that come up all the time of of actually we don't have something to lean on even on the roads that we have jurisdiction over necessarily oh so it wasn't you guys that have been on Camp 20 Road uh last week and it looks like you could land an airplane on it and this one house the Weber's house in 30 some years the only way I could see long time is if you slowed down as you went past you could kind of see one corner of the house every single tree is cleared I can see the whole think the whole shiny C trucks with something it was not local and all this equipment all the way from the north road all the way down to the it was really even was that a along the power line yeah and it was along the power line but it's like these huge like the whole right there's there's you see the stumps that they left the stumps the stumps on the ground and the trees they cut and then down in Chicago Bay Road too somebody lost one of their great big S 60t tall 100y old trees one half of it was cleared from the base all the way up it's still standing and I thought oh he they only took half of one instead of both you know but I couldn't say that I just I'll find out who did this but I I'm glad you have have put this in here because at our emergency preparedness meetings every time we meet we talk about people not being able to get down roads M we talk about people not being able to get down driveways when there is an emergency response what's happening when we have a major fire and somebody can't get down there they're not going down there to if it looks tight they're not going to go down there and so you know it's nice to see it here but I do think it's a a larger piece that we will need to address and and for the the county side of things you know Matt's correct in what he's saying we don't have a policy written right we do have however Minnesota statutes and so it's just hopping around in those to figure out what we are what we can clear what we can't clear in that I think a policy even if it's as short once we get to it as our calcium chloride policy that is and that's our goal is to just like here's exactly where these statutes are instead of me having some notepad on my desktop that's like wait a second remember this random thing you found um you know um as they come up and so you know to to this extent you know this is different obviously these aren't County Roads these are private or forest service or DNR roads and so again the question was coming back you know is this recommended or required and do we grandfather everybody in after this but then how much do we want to what's the enforcement look like on that can we enforce something like this on a noncount road and you know I think do we want to well that Bo the the plow you know the plow service is going to be working the road they could just be like I'm not doing this because you guys didn't do this or it would be enforement Char them more just charge them more and it doesn't make any difference there's one place it that in in 15 years never seen anybody that anyone had ever been to that house but the Heat's always on we plow to keep the lp Tain available coasts what was it this year even with was it this year the summer maintenance or the winter maintenance we actually they had to remind a few contractors to call so we're still down to like one person one bidder that is on each of these that is keeping this system afloat I I had to call half of the contractors uh the day the bids were due right I mean that's no joke you know that's it's like that's where this sits well it's a business someone could get into oh absolutely yeah and it's nothing against the contractors busy it's super busy but it's to the point ofer you know so but yeah so this last part I guess I'm curious you know I I don't know I'm comfortable with it as recommended for now I think you know right we will be revisiting yeah I think it will and it's I think it's important to get it out there have it out there and it's going to build or change or something it gives us an opportunity to educate right it's a good for and to the point I mean we have heard from contractors that are like I'm not bidding on that because it is tight or because the road is X Y and Z and so that does eliminate people from bidding just that alone do you give that feedback back to the sgsd r that's great and maybe even I think that's important that they know why they're not right maybe even including maybe that's not necessary but maybe including if recommended Road clearances that maybe you know doesn't say that yeah it doesn't say like bids are effective are you know hard may not come in right adding that in as a tid it's just hey heads up shooting yourself in the foot here you yeah the fact if you don't have these clearances may impact your ability to get bids for your subordinate governmental service let alone emergency service let alone yes an ambulance or a fire trck no okay cool well thanks all right moving right along so these next two um are actually I think they're new new brand new brand new policies um yeah our goal is to like in the event Matt and I win $10 million we're not dying when we win lots of money uh that there's just a book and someone can just pick up the book and say Here's how the highway department runs make it easy try to as you know the for the board to know what our level of service is as well as U the citizenry because you know honestly a lot of our calls can be can be uh solved by having a not solved I shouldn't say that that's a better word uh assisted by having a policy that you can fall back on and right now we kind of don't for a couple different right services that we do right and so sign signs lately has been a thing um I've written about it a few few times we talk about it a lot speed limits warning signs regulatory signs do they work do they not address signs yes signs signs how about they had a little bit of an accident up in Grand cage because of the where the the bridge is not in place correct and somebody just went nose first because there were no barricades up to that they correct that statement right now there were barricades up oh more than enough Somebody went around it through maybe we're waiting for the sheriff's to finish their investigation to see what happened so but I think it would be important to not say that this to anyone that came from a band member who said oh you know was about time they put up a and I like I don't know I haven't been here in a while fair enough yes no I was say yeah no I definitely talked to to Bobby once I heard about it um and it sounds like like obviously people are hurt but they're okay um and yeah it's just one of those super unfortunate things where you put these traffic control plans in place that have several layers of hey don't come here um and I think the timing to my understanding is we were actually they were doing work on the road so one of the layers was removed and so yeah now what is there giant concrete barriers on top of another layer on top of something else so hopefully that does not happen we'll see how long it takes correct yes but but yeah no every part of every construction uh project we do has a traffic control plan those plans come from the Minnesota manual and uniform traffic control devices there are layouts for that there's things to follow uh the goal is to never just make it up willy-nilly um you know so and that's kind of where this policy comes from is looking at what's referred to as the mut um because saying Minnesota manual and uniform traffic control devices is very long so we just call it the mut the mutcd and that's where we pull all of this from though and so what's interesting is it gives us in some cases a lot of leeway on what we can do believe it or not Cook County has mostly low volume roads um and what's interesting is I believe low volume in some circumstances is even uh anything under a thousand vehicles per day potentially sometimes it's four or 500 yeah and so again lots of leeway though meaning we don't have to sign the beesus out of our road as if it was Highway 61 or some place in wisett or something I don't know um so what we wanted to do is really try and spell out what our thoughts were you know on certain things again I'm not going to go through and and read this in its entirety I think some of the things that we went over at least in Highway committee we didn't get through the whole thing uh because it got into the weeds pretty quick some of it was just you know horizontal alignment signs for example the yellow signs before you get a curve some of them are just an arrow sometimes there's nothing sometimes Chevron sometimes a speed limit sign with an arrow when should we do what um and so what's nice is a while ago we had finished what's the name of the program The Cars Cars program so we drive around the county and it measures all the turns and it measures the speed you take it and then it actually pulls the info out of the mut and then based on your data says here's what it should be and so that was kind of neat and what we learned was there actually a lot of unnecessary signs out and about in the field and so we have been in the process of removing them um as this program recommends um you know the Gunflint Trail we tried to incorporate that into the policy as well since it's a Scenic historic byway um we get even a little more leeway with that one and so that you know is its own conversation as well um I'm trying to think and the fewer a reminder too that the fewer the signs are the fewer signs we have to replace right um so you know making sure that the signs that are up are actually the important ones I think is the general theme of the policy right and then the other cool thing that U I think Josh proposed was that uh essentially 12th of the county will be replaced every year 12th of the signs so every 20 years um you have completely new signs which is very important for retro reflectivity um so that's that's really the the new stuff coming out of this is is that kind of um uh regimented uh replacement because there were there are there's guidance on different ways to measure retro reflectivity in signs you can buy a super fancy device that does it it costs several thousands of dollars or we read a lot of research and they recommend like 20 years and so that's we the 12th and 12th might sound very small why don't we do more well 12th of all of our signs is still I believe several hundred signs um a year that'll get replaced and that doesn't include you know if they blow down or if something else happens and we have one dedicated sign sign person who does other things within the maintenance department so it's um yeah it's within the their scope right so but at least that's in there now um an interesting one we did talk about and I'd be curious everybody thoughts obviously is you know we we name roads in this County name name roads once there's three addresses I believe it's at least three addresses on a private roadway then it becomes a named road so that's how you that's how that works um blanket statement stop signs should be installed at every intersection or not every intersection but where you kind of have that stuff happening so there's several examples though where and I'm sure you can all think of it in your own districts where that would look really funny to have you know certain super low you know maybe there's five addresses on that road so it's a named road and it would come up to a county road now should there be a stop sign there and so where we landed with it is I can think of a few specifically by my house on 45 it's called Amic Trail if you're familiar with the area um I think um that one I think is so unnecessary doesn't make any sense I think it would look silly people know to stop you're going from a tiny little road onto a main road you do not need a stop sign but again we're trying to eliminate this gray area that can exist sometimes and so I know you're not going to get rid of the gray completely and maybe it is just Case by case all the time or within these circumstances but I don't want to oversimplify and say it's a Vibe check when you go look at it and I know that sounds but it it kind of is you know but the problem is that we had at the end of our GL re Road and I forget what Frank called his place his Broadway and camp2 road is somebody who's just visiting and they blow through right and so we have um vacation rentals people that you know they don't recognize it just because it seems like four people a day use the camp 20 Road and it's gravel and you don't see anybody that maybe somebody's coming right on your left and maybe you should slow down or from your right because they instead of blowing straight across right thanks to you we've had no accidents thank you for the two step and then the man from out Escape moved so that's good there we go um was that the bigger Factor yeah he was he was the one that was just like flying down I mean it's a long yell down to the you know and and a lot of times you know that conversation can can go into kind of other things you know like speed limits um you're never going to capture Anybody Everybody in uh a practice or a policy you know you set speed limits based on an 85% right so you know 15% of people are going to be ignoring or are going faster than what you're recommending but research and what have you is suggesting that that's the number you do so similarly right yeah there's going to always be a person or two or whatever that are going to completely blow an intersection or do something I've experienced that as well uh but now do the majority of people follow it so our policy should reflect that like what's the majority of action that is happening right um I feel like a blanket statement in my opinion is a blanket statement of every single intersection should have a stop sign um it's too much that's what I was just going to ask the way it's written Trail would have would have it and just like their mind well we're right and it just doesn't it doesn't pass the sniff test it's like the staff sign that that in your bring you justify really slowing down and then going because you know that the person that the only other person that lives up there does not leave their house until 1:30 in the afternoon we're at 7:00 in the morning so you can roll through that stuff well and and and your's you know and again the case by case too they'll keep picking on amk trail is you get there and you can see a very long distance in either direction it is very clear the distance over the ditch is long I mean you can see um versus you know I think kind of what we're talking about here is a little different we're I think on a curve right on the the 9 corner with that huge tree right there you see so again but again that allows little Case by case you know a judgment to be made and so um I don't know if any other thought because in our driveway we can hit 35 M I have hit 35 miles an hour going home and that the other one Frank's way that's the name of road I'm sure you could go much faster on that one there's nothing there but the road yeah why I'm trying to think about you know when I'm driving so so say for instance I was a visitor you know staying in a short-term rental on an unknown Road and so it's this is just me right but when I get to an intersection where there's no stop sign I might stop more cuz I don't know what's going on what's you know like so it's just a lot of it's driver dependent too trying to think through all this and right balance the safety with the signs and what's required it's not and and if it's not required no yeah then it's and actually good driver it is I mean it's UNC uncontrolled intersections you know a little side tangent to this but talking about intersections and we've talked about this a little bit in Highway committee is and believe it or not but yeah uncontrolled intersections are actually some of the safer types of intersections um because no one's assuming that someone's going to stop and so everyone's like right so you know there's there's something to as well yeah so I mean I so I don't like the blanket no l right and and I know engineering judgment sounds funny but that is an actually like legitimate phrase it's in code it's in a lot of things where it instead of saying you know gray area or whatever it allows you to look at things like okay yours is on a 90 Dee turn with poor sight lines and whatever okay so that makes sense um and the trail does not make sense there's plenty of sight you can see it it's different you know and then any other scenarios at least an opportunity to go put eyeballs on it and say does this does this make sense you know um that's where I would lean but open to yeah no I mean it sounds I think that makes sense it sounds like again a liability potentially or more burdened you know so but I mean I trust engineering judgment that's good that's good so I would rather have that than the blanket I guess yeah but again a little little uncomfortable with that too you know that's part we're like we were talking we're never going to capture everything you can't um you know and the there there is you know the liability component you know I forget the statute of 169 point something off the top of my head but drivers have to drive with care that's in law all of us have to do that no matter what is posted and and that's a thing people forget a lot of times sense those our St have been put up I've never met anyone ever ever somebody's coming on the road but they're down there but otherwise right never met anyone um so the next one and we were talking about horizontal alignment signs a little bit um so again this this cars program what was truly fascinating is a and I'm not saying a few signs are coming down it was a significant reduction in the amount of horizontal alignment signs that are going to be out in the field um but something that's come up a lot is if Chevrons are Justified should we put them up um a lot of people are anti- Chevron not just on the Gunflint um but overall and Chevrons also are like one of the most effective signs for drivers like that's one of the ones that's like yep people pay attention to that one arguably one of the most annoying ones but still so you know something we were toying with was are chevron's Justified if on the whole we're reducing signs like the number of signs in the field is going down but we're putting up the ones that are affected or most effective you know um curious your thoughts on that coming cross country in the dead of night on back RS wherever there's our Chevrons I like those yeah right yeah it helps like okay this one's for real well and and it's true though that's the point that's the point of this is you're like oh they I should listen to this and all it takes is when you're in a new part and you hit one curve cuz you're ignoring and you're like oh no I should have taken that at 35 you better you pay you do you pay attention supposed to keep turning right right um and then on on low volume roads and I don't know if it gets into it later or not um we have even more leeway to I don't want to say have nothing but that exists of like once it gets down to a certain point I don't believe we're obligated to put up anything that's it like as far as warning signs are concerned all Lo right not all a lot are yeah um but I but I think the Chevron run is interesting just because of how a lot of times you hear maybe more complaints about those than anything um but they are the most effective and if on the whole if more signs are coming down is then putting those up you know does that make sense I I find them the most useful like effective yeah I am not familiar with the complaints so I I guess I can't speak for those sure um I'd like to learn more about that the complaints it's just because you're putting up you know seven of them along a curve or whatever and there's you know you're just putting up seven signs on my back country road that were never there before why are you doing this you're turning the place into brainer I can see that yeah Etc ETA but I'm trying to think of where that would be where it's like uh well I mean they come up on the Gunflint and so some have Trail Scenic byway talks about this right but like the Gunflint specifically like there are curves that what's that Northern Light Lake yep um uh the saw Bill I mean honestly all of our roads murmur Creek Road the turn on 45 where murmur Creek hits it technically that should be chevron's and that even gets my hackles up I don't want to see them but you know um seem like well that seems like a low volume or is that not a low volume I forget what that's certainly is not low volume right and it depends which part we're at the end of the trail I think it is um but depend it depends what which part we're on and and I think low volume and different types of signs means different things I think one cut off is a th cars per day a cut off is like 400 cars per day or something like that so we can dig into that and determine what that needs to be but but I think what we were looking for here is can we justify Chevrons if we're reducing the overall quantity yeah of signs knowing that they are for safety reasons absolutely um and you know again they get our attention right we've all right experienced that I think we're all on the same page that we're not looking for more science we're not looking where Chevrons but there are some situations where it can be very effective and if it's still reducing overall signs it feel better with that but the impact of course is going to be right there right as far as the sign impact or whatever complaints there are so right and in certain scenarios another substitute for Chevrons is just the arrow pointing left or right or whatever um typically if the curve is super yeah like if it's super tight then you know we've talked about putting up those instead of Chevrons um but that again is is kind of case by case and what the field looks like if you're leaving town going east when it's really dark on the highway there aren't many I mean there are light they reflective lights are reflect it's everywhere from at the end of people driveway on their on their there's some road signs it's on their mail boxes that it's just a whole steady reflection all the way out I don't know how far out but it's a long way there's no dark the highway it's annoying do something do something about that uh well well what we what we did decide to do actually up here getting back to Retro reflectivity is instead of doing everything typically nowadays is Diamond grade dg3 um we do one below that and so we can do I think it's high-intensity Prismatic or something so that's still legal it's not as bright as the dg3 signs are but you still I mean up here because we have no ambient lighting you even when we put up a new sign and it's a lower grade reflectiveness you're still going who you know it catches your attention still so um yeah but I can't do anything about mailboxes sorry that's okay uh okay so some of the next ones we were talking sled dog crossing signs I I like those because that is so quintessential up here uh I don't know anyone else that has those so something we had in there was very specific roads County Road 14 and County Road 60 um do we need to be Road specific you know do we need to say specifically those roads um or you know I know historically that's seems to be sled dog country is there um but I don't want to I guess disuade people and other it is also in our zoning that's where they get to be oh right well there we go then no well now wait a minute Camp 20 Road at one point there were almost a thousand sled dos down there between leodas and can't think of all so maybe we just kind of refer to our zoning where right well it's not Z we're allowed by Z comprehensive Land guide plan and so it's there but it's less uh enforceable than zoning right it's more of a guide um but but I think like I think what I heard engineer H saying is that calling these out specifically is maybe restricting having them in other areas or what I mean well and I was just withus on Night Train that's his drive because it driveway before he move but wasn't there a sign down way down on Camp 20 road I don't know we'd have to look at our sign inventory somebody took it maybe that happens a lot does you know or does or does it happen where yeah maybe people live not in these areas and now want more of these put up elsewhere in the County and so now we're saying no because you have to live on 14 and 60 that's what I was yeah we as opposed to what if a little pocket happens up here or you know I don't Irish crck Ro has had SL has SL I think referring to the comprehensive plan is the way to do it I'll put that in there and you don't need to use the road if you have a trail net trail system cut you're just but you're crossing the road so it's for those in individuals that have to cross the road but if enough AC behind you to cut Trails You Don't Have To Cross Road so maybe what I'll do is maybe we won't be Road specific but we'll just say some reference to as as Allowed by the Cook County comprehens land use plan okay that sounds good um I know I'm skipping over a lot and so are there other questions about other areas in here I'm just going to go to kind of the highlights um so we did want to include obviously a very specific part for the Gunflint um you know historic Scenic byway you know we work with the scenic byway committee a lot um I know we had come up with a very you know kind of a an initial sign policy it was pretty darn short and I think this is basically copy and pasted out of that into here so now it's part of our main one um really the big one kind of gets back to the horizontal alignment component is again chevron's um you know is kind of historically been a big no no like very anti don't do that because you're putting up right seven of these you know however many it is along a curve but again if the overall if they're overall on the trail I think didn't Josh say took down like two or 300 signs I think just along the trail yeah yeah I can't say whether it's just the trail or or it was a lot and so you know if there's an overall reduction is it okay okay now to say well let's put these up and then they work you know then it's then it's very specific it's intentional and what's up there um and should we also allow ourselves to stray from the Cars analysis so if the cars analysis says Chevrons if we're able to look at it and be like well it's kind of borderline let's do the arrow with the recommended speed underneath instead because we know it's historic because we know can say may in will well right and so I think I think that's an important distinction as well um yeah I sounds pretty good to me cool yeah and and I'm happy to revisit this right this is a brand new policy and so when we start getting phone calls and feedback like to go through a bunch of work as far as putting them up and then down and and and I know and we and we actually we haven't talked about it in a little we here for yeah we haven't talked about it in a little while at the committee but I I'm trying to remember I feel like the last time we did because obviously the concern is you can go down the slippery slope Avenue of well now every Curve will be that it's like well that's not the case you know and and can we be nuanced and say it's very Case by case where if we say we're taking down 100 signs to put up seven you know um is that fine like that should seem fine you're still looking at 93 signs that are now not along the trail anymore you know corre and I think that was you know and I again I think specifically with Chevrons we know they're effective that's the other thing is any research you read shows chevron's work and so you're going okay do we want to really make an exception because it's the gun Flint or do we want to just be yeah more nuanced with it and say okay we know this specific curve has an accident history has all this other stuff with it that's like we should put we should put them there okay wonderful uh we talked about the 12th and is there anything else with signs any other questions with signs well just um I just want to um if we could sure go back to the that the sled do Crossing one because oh I I I I like the idea of not calling out specific RS because I feel like that excludes things um um could you say in there just for example CA 14 in County Road 6 but why like it just slide out crossing signs will be maintain 500 ft in each direction of ative Trail Crossings as well as entry points to the general don't each Direction so period I see what you're saying yeah and that's I mean dur there some up the trail right right whatever it's just there are different ones in different parts of the county if they're active mushing trails and so then there could be signs placed there if it's if that's a thing people request it or engineering judgment engineering judgment that's thing lean on um but that just seems really and so and then it says contact the mushroom for input was this written with the input or this was written and then asked for input and was there input yet or Josh Josh wrote it and reached out to the groups I don't know what correspondence they had okay right I'm just curious because mushers don't live forever do their dogs so we have four less fewer kennels in our neighborhood than we used to we used to and it's now primarily I think I don't know where that other person went it's the lodas Charlie and Dennis and their Kels they're way back in they're next to each other I don't know if they ever use the but good to know the the last thing I'll touch on is just the last couple of most say even sentences they're pretty short but the modification and deviation from this policy basically saying at the end of the day who's myself who's ever in my chair or an authorized you know represent ative uh we can stray from this policy for a number of reasons if whether it's safety social reasons economic reasons um and then as long as we document why and so we've kind of started to talk about that a little bit on certain in certain ones as you know it can be as simple as a little note you know here's why we said you know the sight lines are great in either Direction no stop sign needed or the sight lines are awful in both directions so we think the stop sign is necessary there so it's kind of just adding that extra layer of you know we're doing our best to capture everything up in the policy but at the end of the day we reserve the right to make a decision um and justify why and that's it amen there we go thank you all right one more now what are we on to here kelse Kel our favorite topic it is it's great Road stabilization there that we talked about a lot what should we even name the policy um so we use calcium chloride up here um mag chloride magnesium chloride is another option some counties use most of the time it just gets down to cost the cost between the two for my understanding is about the same and so it just gets down to Who's got what where um I think you can really get into the research and there's pros and cons and those you know one might rust your car more but is less bad for the environment or vice versa it's worse for the environment but leaves your your car alone I think it's pulling my understanding is it's kind of pulling pulling hairs um whichever one you go with spit spilling it hairs thank you um less painful um so for us really in this one we did include some examples in here because with creating this policy it was far more nuanced um you know it was for us we kind of looked at I think it was St Louis County and Lake County for other examples you know what do they do cuz we have this before we just kind of did our best um and so where we landed on was a traffic count of 100 as a starting point say okay if the car uh if the road has more than 100 vehicles per day on it and that's measured by mindat um then we'll we'll treat the whole road if it's less than 100 then we do not treat the road but there are examples where we might deviate from that um some of the other policies we looked at kind I had this middle one where it said you know maybe the lowest threshold was 50 and so anything under 50 wouldn't get treated from 50 to 200 it would be between houses or you do at houses or driveways and then anything above 200 you do the whole Road what I'm worried about is we miss one now what so I'm I'm I'm a fan as I'm sure you are all aware of trying to make it as black and white as possible and say we're either going to do the whole Road or we're not um so some examples you know deviating from this this 100 traffic count and reasons why is is really Road geometry um and budget um Hall routes is another component as well do we know there's gravel pits um that even if it's a lower volume Road it gets used a lot and so would that benefit and so an example we given here uh the North Road uh does not meet the traffic threshold 79 cars per day so but it's a long straight road it's a wide Corridor we know people are going faster through there so we say yes it should get it um so that's kind of kind of the thought process through that um obviously there's you know we don't treat paved sections of Road uh doesn't need it which is great um trying to think what else with this there any questions on the chloride policy I mean it's kind of yes so I've had several comments on off of caribo Trail the road's there m going three miles do you have a water tank I had that sure that you could go because now we've had a little bit of rain maybe what right an inch3 or something right but it doesn't help so I've said traffic count he said well I don't know that I have neighbors but I can't say there's 50 of us up and down the road so I just said I'll get back to you right so we talked about that a lot and I think years ago we tried to spray the roads with water to get them wet to grade and you can't put enough down we can't you can't it doesn't soak because you need it to go cuz what we're doing and Matt's talked about this a lot um is we're turning the road over and so you need to get that moisture down several inches in order to do that properly so that then you don't actually lose all your F yeah yeah you know so to do it with a tanker would almost I mean you would probably need a tanker which we do not have um and then at that point you know and it wouldn't work for it would be very very temporary like an afternoon for dust control I mean it wouldn't yeah right but actually it has more application for grading like if we we could potentially wet a road a section of road like a hill enough that we could actually do a little bit grading uh and you know this recent drought pointed out that that that could be something we pursue in the future I don't think it would help for dust control at all June was no problem that great right September is the new June yeah um and the one thing we were debating a lot and whether we should even include it in here is it is you know a paragraph talking about budget um because really where this came from was the increase in price that we've been seeing for I think since 200 what was it 2009 to 2019 something like that was about a dollar a gallon since then I think we're what at a160 a gallon now something like that and so you going from that to that in the span of four years is we can't keep up with it um and so that's really where this came from is can we be more deliberate with it um other options is if we pave if we paved more then you have less Dusty roads as well that's another probably separate conversation oh there's been good ones on that one too there yeah absolutely so yeah um so where where do sodium chloride this that's just salt right yes popcorn yes popcorn eggs yeah does it not have the same or or it's just not even I don't know the specific like attributes of it I know I mean it almost sounds like we're just talking like winter salt at that point in time you know I'm just curious how it how it works or does not work and that too and I was curious about her Briny LS what is that is that sodium is that calcium is that magesium there was the a while ago was it a few years ago I think I don't remember if it the DNR or soil and water was pulling out um what were they tracking was it night no it was calcium calcium in The Lakes that's what it was and so there was concern that in some of the lakes that were increasing that it was because of our chloride applications so what was fascinating though is when you look at which lakes were increasing they're nowhere near County Roads so it's not this there's also there's no Baseline for that data so they just started collecting it I think I can't remember levels not that it was necessar right but so that one I thought was kind of funny I don't know if it was Tom lake or it was somewhere in that area though where I was like oh no we don't they like 15 miles from a county road like that's not us uh but we also are very very diligent one of our maintenance crew does go out every time there's an application and you know no matter what we may spec in blanket terms he goes out there and then says okay turn it up turn it down stop here you know watch this um so we do try and mitigate the runoff as much as we possibly can we do record all the gallons per roadway too if that information is ever useful we can tell you exactly how much went down in Any Given Road right that's great so what do you know what that um the moles are oh of the like how much we put down like the the ratio yeah once our no not the total but just like what is the it's a liquid right it's a solution so what is that you know what it is off the top of your head no I mean I'm sure can well it'd be in our specs so I don't know if top my head and that and that rate can change yeah um we can we can specify more less or whatever um and yeah and yeah so with the application yeah you can you can take your dollar and stretch it further by not spraying the whole width of the road you can spray less um but again change the bar width you know on the Fly based on the width of the road right the length so you know that matters and so that was part of this conversation was well can we keep what we've been doing but spray less basically on each road we were like I didn't like that I don't think anyone really liked that idea um because you're kind of half you get it um We're not gonna say that one but yeah so anyways um trying to think and then you know the other thing is at the end of it um we do have people that will piggyback off of um our chlorite you know whoever the contractor is that gets it so if they just call what we do is then just give their number to whoever gets it and then they coordinate an application and then they pay it's no different than our contractors for our bigger construction projects you know if people want driveways paved a cul replaced gravel here or there once I have a contractor I just say here you go you you guys figure that out so yeah there any questions about calcium chloride happy to see the policy getting there yeah cool anything El any other questions or comments Commissioners great well thank you so much we will look forward to this uh coming back at us again yes in the near future so I think what yeah what we'll do is we'll probably button these up and then I don't know if it'll be by next week at a board meeting but soonish um my goal was I wanted to go over like seven of these at once but true I talked him down you did thank you man thank you all all right have a great day appreciate it we're going to take a short break and uh come back in five minutes to conclude our meeting thank you e e e e e e e e e e thanks Janna all right well we're returning now to our committee the whole work session after a short break and we have with us for our last two agenda items Cook County treasur and auditor Brady powers and first thing we're going to do is just talk about some additional information and adjustments to our preliminary budget for 2025 thank you madam chair so not a lot has changed since you approved the preliminary budget in this is for the general fund uh in September but a few of the items we did discuss uh the estimate for profession service cost and maintenance and had indicated that we would look at that again and adjust it and it seems reasonable to reduce it uh $20,000 depends on how many years back you look and in the in the narrow view of a couple of years um it looked to be higher but over about five years this seemed a little more reasonable um so that's a reduction of 20,000 Arc Arrowhead Regional Corrections they gave us the final cost and so that's a cut in expenses of over $30,000 3882 and that includes the addition of ours position for the probation persons so I think that's I think that's mostly because of the uh the state money that went to Arc CRCT yeah was increased by the state so just point out that that new position or increase in hours for that position it's not costing us anything more Levy wies yeah it was a great time to do it and uh on the library uh added 22880 I hadn't received their uh final numbers when we did the preliminary and so I'm not sure the they hadn't uh I hadn't heard from them and uh I was too busy whatever I didn't contact them until later but um they're supposed to contact us but maybe they got a hold of somebody but so anyway that's an addition here uh 22880 because I was using last year's number as a placeholder um AIS we just added the expense and revenue to the budget it's a wash they get more Revenue than they spend so we're building up a fund balance for AIS but this is just adding the those numbers um and then HRA housing so we moved that into the general fund um that's at the recommendation of our Auditors red path uh just to reduce you we were using a separate fund fund 16 so this just reduces uh One Fund it's uh just simplifies the accounting but it's not sitting down there it was shown under housing if you look and uh before that it was listed as uh HR so changed the name too some of this has been ongoing discussion with red path our audit firm as to what exactly is our HRA so they've they've come down on The View that they are uh special tax District same as Eda but we're not they're not asking to Levy their own funds under the statute they've been asking us to levy on their behalf that's why it remains in the general fund rather than as a standalone item like Eda um so that's between us and the HRA board but they wish it to be a county Levy um to this point point it doesn't make any difference to the taxpayers it's just where it shows in the budget and on the tax statement so um that could be a discussion later if you want to see it differently um the last item uh Human Resources Allison realized that she had to budget for uh skillsoft that General training uh software that we use that's kind of got back and forth between the administration department and HR and she says I've got to pick that up but it it was hadn't been in there until after the preliminary so so this isn't new skill soft just hadn't been budgeted yeah and so the net change of all that excuse me I'm going on two weeks of this coughing anyway I think it's around I've heard other people is uh we left the approved Levy at a 9.81% increase all of these adjustments would bring it down to 9.62 and so you still have a lot of work to do okay um decisions to make you maybe using some fund balance but so this is this is not a lot of decision making this is really just adjustments that have happened so but it's important important for us to have this information as we contemplate what we want to do yeah and I'm sure Highway Department would have a similar list and uh Human Services too and you probably hear that at their meeting um if there aren't any other questions I'll just move on to the fire levies go ahead um you know when I first came on we we made an agreement to enter into a contract with the CIP um consultants for a annual uh $2,000 a year uh support technical support from them do you recall that I would call it being one year I don't is this be KV or yes okay yes we entered into a contract that they would be for support like remember James so cbps or crb yes yeah we have that yeah do we have we ever tapped into their used it I I don't know specifically but um for example we have a contract and they do some work at monitoring at the YMCA they've been doing that for a few years I'm not sure about um other things here all right well let's let's find that out break the contract and break the contract why are we paying for some services that we have not had any need for I mean we haven't if it's for the uh deess We've hired somebody new that for more money that can do that right right so there a redundancy yep we'll get that thank you okay I'll make a note on that check on it um I don't recall seeing bills go by but one or two it's always possible one or two that okay that's good so on the the fire levies so we received all of those levies you could see not a lot of change other than the loten fire extension uh they are adding uh some big equipment purchases this year not just the extension but the loots and fire department overall this is just the the portion that's paid outside of luten that the luten fire department has taken responsibility for so their portion of it is up you know 91% and that's uh they're expecting to get a grant they're hoping but they're not sure so when they know they if they know they'll reduce that amount um but they may not do it this year so they may collect that this year and then make a reduction next year but um in the event they don't get that Grant they're covered so that's what that's about and the rest of these are either status quo Maple Maple Hill has made no change Gunflint Trail dropped theirs a little bit they do heavy fundraising uh on Maple Hill so it's not that their costs for fire protection are going down but they have a lot of support Community I've often said to them they need to give lessons to all our other fire departments on um how to raise funds they're just amazing and in the ideas they have the creativity and well it does make the question not to be a devil's advocate here but the question should we be supporting our fire departments with hot dog sales or with Levy dolls you know like it's pretty important service you know and so bless them for raising it in other means but it's still coming from maybe it's not maybe it's not coming from the community but I'm just feeling like it's still coming from our community members so how do we want to support that but we still like our pancake and that too we still like our absolutely sandwich in theth of July absolutely it builds Community absolutely and this is not about fire departments but I me there's going to be a py um fundraising at the Hub oh yeah yeah so p departments with yeah there are a lot of grants that are available that they're able to um you know get as well I mean but commissioner you have yeah I just want to clarify make sure I understand this correctly now those fire department levies are for those areas though yes so I guess I'm a proponent of that that area you get taxed on it and somebody and hoveland doesn't get taxed on because we need a new truck down in Luton which I get we all use it we're all one Community it's pretty important but it keeps I'm all about local control about local people deciding what does our department need what do we want just like I keep preaching to the state give it to us we know how to spend it best so I just will Advocate that keeping those areas those local levies yes we need to keep all of them funded well and we should go to every pancake breakfast there is doesn't matter where it is in the county yeah and they all I mean they all support each other they're always calling out they share equipment they work together yeah yeah um if you want to take the time that's all I really have on that um I'd like to like or I could share one other thing with you just on truth and Taxation there was a new law this year that states that uh that counties will uh show a new fiscal disparities adjustment on the TNT statement and the purpose of it is to show what the net effect on a parcel is um any any commercial property you know will see their tax statement and they'll see a number there for fiscal disparities and it might be uh 300 or 4,000 or 20,000 and that's not that does not tell them the effect of fiscal disparities it tells them how much of their net tax capacity is getting taxed at this areawide rate which is much higher than ours it's just how this formula Works in statute so it's telling them accurate number your you know but it doesn't say because if fiscal disparities went away that amount of their net tax capacity would still be taxed at the local rate it's just not being taxed at this higher areawide rate so this is trying so our Representatives wanted attempted to put something in that would say hey it says 20,000 on here but the the actual effect is really 15,000 if if it didn't exist not 20 or maybe it's 14,000 or something like that um I've used that as kind of a rough estimate over the many decades that yeah that's not accurate but it's it's whatever that fiscal disparity number says in Cook County is somewhere in the 2/3 um of what it's actually costing you to be in the fiscal disparities what it costs you on your tax bill so they spent some counties Department of Revenue everybody spent months on this this summer because to get a really accurate number is darn near impossible because you almost have to run taxes right now um and to to to to be a 100% accurate you'd actually like have to run taxes without fiscal disparity in your tax system at all and then run it with because fiscal disparities affects every parcel most of us it's just a small effect we're not a commercial property but it's this complicated formula changes our overall net tax capacity so we're all paying in Cook County paying a piece of it but a small small piece individually I'm probably getting too far in the weeds already but um so the the debate and the discussion all summer was well if it's not going to be really accurate should we do this does it make sense and um so some counties are opting out of showing it the Department of Revenue has said we're not going to penalize you we understand it's complicated and each one of you may think differently about it um and it's different in every County St Louis County they're a beneficiary of it so they look at it from a different Viewpoint here we always pay in so I my feeling right now is to to let it go to take the number that's going to be produced it's still it's not going to be 100% accurate but it will show it will will give anybody that cares that looks at it and say yeah 20,000 is really 15 um at least it's close it's not perfect it tells you that you're not paying quite as much as what it says because you're going to pay something whether you have fiscal disparities or not so that's where I'm falling on it right now so um and some are worried about the having to explain it well I mean we've been I've been explaining it here for 25 years so kind of used to that and trying to explain something that's almost unexplainable but um but it shows I just printed a sample so it's like right at the bottom it's just like a little add-on it just says um fiscal disparities adjustment this one it has a fiscal disparities tax of $136 up here in the bottom of the statement and right at the bottom it says adjustment 2187 so it says it really isn't costing you that it's costing you that well these relative numbers don't work in Cook County but this is just some fictional County you think people is do you think people might say think I'm getting taxed up both by both of them or you think it's clear enough that um that adjustment is clear enough I don't think how do I know what somebody thinks but I don't think so and it's below the body of it and uh and we can direct them there's places on the uh Department of Revenue website that um they've tried to explain it um and we can we'll just point them that too if they if they want to um if they need more information and they're going to work on this more next year kind of like every time someone tries to adjust the TNT notice it seems to be a thornier problem than they think like when they wanted us to um provide the budgets for schools cities Etc right on that form that was I don't know maybe three years ago or something and that was hugely controversial and it ended up going away in the end because it was too hard to to manage and so uh we'll see what happens with this one all right and that's all I have for you all right well thank you very much we appreciate the information both on our um budget and also on our volunteer fire departments and I have a comment to make I appreciate you updating us a little bit and I know we'll be getting updating even more however at our last board meeting I did ask specifically that the May the whole would be talking about more detail about the budget and I know that it's important to hear from the forest service it's important to hear from the highway but I don't think they were time sensitive so my request and um consideration today is that our next board meeting we specifically deal with the budget because then we don't have to call another meeting and we're getting to the point where we're two less than two months away from making a decision unless there's time sensitive news that we need to know about next board meeting should all be about the budget as I look at this budget right now as far as I'm concerned it's all done 683 th000 I'm done nobody gets anything we have to discuss all these parts we just added $2,000 more for AMC now I'm not sure if it's 25 or 26 budget but they've raised you know the support of the AMC staff and that was discussed at our district meeting I think we're around 79 or something so now we're 950 so that's a $2,000 raise that we need to consider and I mean it just keeps coming and coming so we need to sit down at a board meeting and start discussing this piece by peace and one of the things I'm going to discuss at the arrowhead County um association meeting to tomorrow night is how many people are really doing the bwcaw appraisal that's at 189 if nobody else is doing it I think we take it off our list too it's that kind of stuff the details is the so that I would ask respectively that our next board meeting be is our priority budget is the priority absolutely commissioner and I just like to say I want complete accurate information at that meeting when we're talking about lists of things that to consider cuts that we're considering all departments all increases um our original list wasn't comprehensive and then I emailed James and we did get a longer list but still not everything's on there and some of these things that are on here are already over and done with we voted on so are we seriously going to consider firing somebody saying we're not going to hold that position we need to be transparent with the public of what is on that list that's already done what is not done yet and I wanted there's things on that in the phhs budget I haven't totally gone through it's hard hard for me to do understand some of the highway stuff as easily too um line by items of what those increases mean but there and if you go through the phhs budget there are substantial increases in some line items and I'm like okay that's an increase how come you didn't get the list didn't make the list other department got on there why are we picking and choosing what the public knows of what's in our 2025 budget um and I also want to point out our financial management plan that we were presented on September 24th is inaccurate or not complete we need that information and we need it to be accurate if we are talking about a building project and we need to see I get we don't know how much we may need to borrow but we need those tax rates to be to make sense to the public and um I'm just so that you can look okay if we increase 2025 budget by this amount what's it mean going down the road because you're going to have increases every year and it's easy to I do the spreadsheet I can put it in there and change my percentages but if we don't have accurate information to start with it's really hard to guess where you're going to be in 5 years so I want to make sure we have accurate information that we are presented with other commission what um so what are the rates that the other counties at AMC or saying that they're what what were thear everywhere from 3% cash so cooch was really high down I mean you know we're going to to but they were like 25 yeah they're one of the higher ones in the and that's was because of their jail 24 cast is 4% how about Lake do you have I don't have the uh yeah I do lake is 2.4 and then St Louis St Louis oh you know what I didn't write oh 7.23 Pine 3% Carlton 3% a 4% we had said we get to five towards five y maybe we all consider going to four three and and I just I heard zero yeah well um has it ever worked for each department to to say we're only going to increase by 4% so you have your budgets get it back to us with only a 4% increase for the next fisal year Well often times the conversation like that's arbitrary right how' you pick up how' you pick 4% it was that was AR but but the point is the point is if we can't if we say well here's what we start we want to provide these Services what does it cost you know versus we got 4% that's it what services can we provide so it's like where are you maybe we can't afford everything that's off out here right that's what I was going to say is where do we where are we drawing our lines so we want to decrease services or decrease costs because maintaining Serv has an increas cost increasing Services increas cost and so that's always the conversation it's just what is what framing are you using to determine your base right do we have too many services which services do we want to cut that's kind of the that's the question if we're truly wanting to and I think as far as this list was concerned these are new requests right that's what that this was right new not like phhs uh increase in this budg out of home placement budget because we've had that program going and we see a growth and or whatever you know no that's not what I'm talking about there are other line request I don't know it jumped substantially why why did that jump but that's what I'm saying that's why it wasn't on that list is that was is the new request but I consider that a new I get if you go up by a certain percentage because of cost of materials whatever I get but when it jumps a bigger percentage it makes me think you're adding something and I'm afraid we don't we pick can choose which departments we want to um scrutinize yeah I think this that's the new request list and I think it's I think it's 100% on Mark to say why not what are you adding with you know I think we should be asking are you adding something you're going to say why because that's very open versus what are you adding is is an assumption that there's something added versus just like well this is why you know it's just the framing right and I think it's important to keep that broad framing so that um the the targeting can be accurate right what are we targeting are we targeting Services reduction in services or are we targeting uh new services and so I think when we have these higher discussions that's kind of you got to have that Baseline and growth and not and trimming here there I agree though if there's a huge increase in a cost why well and that's I don't have that opportunity I thought that was what this meeting we were going to have a community of the just to talk budgets just to get these qu say I could ask that question and say what about this liting what does that include but I'm feeling like I'm not getting that opportunity as a group for us to learn together what's happing right now is important we should we should send the question out that incre and why I gave my thing here I wanted I want these things let's do it I mean that's I have another meeting and maybe some of you too I'm not to St this out board meeting that's for or Committee of the whole where we can Committee of the whole and is not working because other people are scheduled this should be then if you're going to committee the whole only the budget but we have a board meeting next week let's get started there and if you need to trim anything or talk about but to me the committee the whole is for information that's what we get but now we're at 10 minutes to 1 I don't think we should discuss the budget now and we have $600,000 potentially right to cut this is huge this is not going to be an easy job right and I don't want to put it off until the December no and we've got to give our administrator and our auditor some direction of which way do we want to go and that takes the five of us sitting down together asking the questions and what's the and I would also say to help Brady and James one of the things we can do is if you have specific questions funnel them to me will make a master list to share just to help for Preparation did you write down what I said out loud or do you need me to email that to you I think I catch a specific line it was in I just know that there were certain lines that I would like to understand if there were new things added or increased and then today the discussion about the P phhs grants that should be on our list do we want to show that in 2025 or do we want it to show for 2024 we get to make that decision with the advice of our auditor but that's what I'm saying can we hey can we count that to reducing the levy I don't know but we need to have these discussions and I want to make sure we have a complete list of those things and guess what I'm just the lowly commissioner at $30,000 a year I expect that the people that get paid the big bucks to make sure I have all the information and it's accurate I do not disagree I'll Stand Up and clap for you okay I we need the information across the board we don't know what every have nose and all of but um one other thing I somewhere came through one ear lately do we we this is where you have to go um we do a lot of the uh requirements waiting for things from um uh not red but who's the other one aers interation perers do don't we have the software to do that ourselves not exactly as they're doing it so do we have some so I'd like to discuss that at some point if our dependency and the amount we spend on them which we have waited for information from them because they're really busy on more than one occasion so is there something that maybe we could change inhouse or if we have the uh means if if we have the tools to do it ourself then is there value in doing it ourselves so you have to go you're right I agree we have to talk about this and if we talk about this and maybe could we have one more meeting another special meeting we sit around and we put it out there saying another open meeting we're talking about the budget and you can see so many people really cared they showed up today but honestly we have to have more time to really Le things to have five person conversation well we need gr we need the people that have the answers to be there and guide us all right well um we have minutes of our standing committees that are listed and um with that we are adjourned thank you all very much for lengthy me who's got bad water yeah go down and I know the Lys have I got that one yep for sure they have bad water um and probably road down