##VIDEO ID:fou_KudCJX8## e e e I mine is this board is comprised of seven members four members of the board shall constitute a quorum and the affirmative vote of four members shall be necessary for the adoption of any motion if only four members of the board are present an applicant May request and be entitled to a continuance to the next regularly scheduled meeting of the board if a matter is continued due to lack of quum the chairperson or Secretary of the board May uh uh May set a special meeting to consider such matter in the event that four votes are not obtained an applicant except in the case of a comprehensive plan Amendment May request a continuance or allow the application to proceed to the city commission without a recommendation pursuant to resolution number 202-1184 Gables has returned to traditional inperson meetings however the planning zoning board has established the ability for the public to provide comments virtually lobbyist registration and disclosure any person who acts as a lobbyist must register with the city clerk as required pursuant to city code as chair I now officially call the City of Coral Gables planning a zoning board's second special meeting on Mediterranean standards of October 29 2024 to order the time is 6:01 Jill if you please call the rooll yes Robert bear present Julio Gabriel here zalinski here Felix Paro here faio Salan chip Withers here ABS instead here uh we will not have swearing in tonight as this item is legislative everyone who speaks today must complete the roster on the podium we ask that you print clearly so the official records of your name and address will be correct Zoom platform participants I will ask any person wishing to speak on tonight's agenda item to please open their chat and send a direct message to Jill Menendez stating you would like to speak before the board and include your full name Jill will call you when it's your turn I also ask you to be concise for the interested time phone platform participants after Zoom platform participants are done I will ask phone platform participants to comment on tonight's agenda item I also ask you to be concise for the interest of time procedure that we'll use for tonight's meeting will be first the identification of agenda item by Mr caller then the presentation by staff we'll go ahead and have we'll open it to public comment first in chamber then Zoom platform and then phone platform we'll go ahead and close public comment we'll have board discussion motion discussion and second of motion if necessary board's final comments and a vote um if the record can please re uh show that Mr sanon has arrived thank you um tonight we have had on this item actually six meetings uh five actual one was deferred just want to let everybody know that um Mr caller if You' please read the agenda item into the record yes item E1 in ordinance of the city Commission of Carl Gables Florida providing for text amendments to the city of Carl Gable's official zoning code Article 5 architecture section 5-200 Mediterranean standard article 3 uses section 3-42 restrictions related to location and article 16 definitions to enhance the quality of Carl Gable's Mediterranean Design By requiring a conceptual design review removing duplicative criteria relocating inapplicable standards supplementing existing criteria and including additional Mediterranean building examples providing for severability repealer codification and for an effective date there is a parenthetical which does provide you the information on the dates that I that this hearing has been either continued or deferred thank you item E1 public hearing Jennifer um so I have a brief presentation that goes through the changes um if I could have a PowerPoint please for the record J Garcia planning director thank you um so this is a kind of a snapshot of the review process we've been back and forth with the board of Architects as well as City commission to update them um and give them presentation um and again back and forth with planning and toning board and the board of Architects um every time that we've made changes as far as um architecture um building precedence or anything we think is substantial we go back to the board of Architects and make sure that we get their feedback and input as we move forward so the summar is listed um in your um Memo from staff um on page one um I can run through that really quickly so uh this relocates a set ability that was previously in level one to be now prerequisites and the intent is actually changing so instead of it being um more um just steal a word from Ste was on more green Gizmo um Gizmo green um this would be more time test sustainability you know High High um High ceilings um natural ventilation um things that are more inheritant with traditional architecture um also removing the street lighting that was always kind of a concern of why this is part of Mediterranean uh bonus it's not really related directly to the actual style or architecture of the building that Jennifer um we did Skip one item which was the approval of the minutes if we can go ahead and and I do apologize um I'm going to interrupt you a second okay I'll make a motion to approve second we have a motion to approve and we have a second of the meeting minutes and those were the meeting minutes of 926 2024 okay the motion was made by Mr beart and second by Ja yes any discussion no call the RO please Gabriel yes zalinski yes Felix Paro yes Hario Salman yes chip Withers yes Robert be yes AB aset yes sorry Jennifer worri continue please I got the Powerpoint back thank you um and then also clarify the hital liners for the Front Street uh clarify pedestrian improvements and what that would include for the public open space um the intent of the open space fund um we add the board of Architects as a reviewer for the sidewalks and the type of pavers there was some concern about that um we clarified the reallocation of the square footage for the building um lot coverage um we also remove the 1/3 and the 25 ft maximum height I'll get that in just a second and then also clarify the definition for architectural precedence so really quick the first change on page 10 of your attachment a um showing the removal of that street lighting and then um on page 12 page 13 the addition of the sustainability again this is less of that um solar panels um water harvesting and more of those um more architectural um time tested sustainability options I can go through those as operable Windows uh natur ventilation uh conservation of shade trees landscape area um Garden rooms having more outdoor space of course uh preservation of and reuse of existing structures those types of time tested um sustainability uh bottom of page 14 you can see the addition of having clarification for the Front Street for a requirement of that habitable space for that liner um page 16 are multiple changes uh for the public open space clarifying what types of pedestrian amenities would be included in that uh open space fund and um clarifying the intent of that and what that would be used for as far as a overall Urban Design move in our city and not just left over open space would would qualify for that um going on to the Ty of pavers that would be reviewed by the board of Architects um the benches and fountains and ping amenities uh clarifying that would be within the private property that expanded Paving area we talked about the last meeting and again subject to the board of Architects review and approval uh bottom of page 19 the building lot coverage U clarifying A lot of that intent as far as as a building I'll get into this more in details a building site gets building coverage gets more where that square footage will be allocated to and this is kind of a diagram kind of explains that um we were asked to test that so we tested that it of course there are two um two requirements there's a minimum open space requirement usually multif family um that's 25% of the lot area has to be Open Space Landscape open space and there's also a 60% uh building lot coverage right now the med bone is no minimum or maximum building lot coverage so typically all it provide is 25% open space so the change here would be that if you go over the maximum building lock coverage you could accommodate that um square footage either as a open loia porch Stoops um arcade or even in the rideway so as a as a Buon site gets larger it's more difficult to um be within that maximum lck coverage 60% and so again that would be accommodated by either open loas arcades porches those kinds of um spaces so we also looked at some older precedents not old pres but older buildings that were um approved and built um this is 108 manotas is the building that's on manotas um in the north Pon area it's a very small lot and of course they meet their actual 60% lot coverage anyway because it's much easier to meet that maximum lot coverage for smaller properties as the properties get larger it's more difficult to to be within that maximum building lot coverage you though they meet their open space um so this could be accommodated by again an open loia along the side to activate that open space for this example on San and then as the building site gets even larger that maybe there' be a combination of providing that additional lot coverage square footage as loas and porches but also in the rideway as well and so moving on there were um additional examples um precedents given by um Mr Brett Gillis we reached out to him we went back to word of Architects again and we we kept some of the ones he he suggested some of them were not kept for various reasons we can get into detail I have one here to to get into that um we added in I think a small handful and these are images of those so what eight images were eight sorry precedents were added to that list of of examples that uh Architects can use as far as Design Elements to incorporate into their building and then the exclusion from height we talked about uh onethird of a building allow a building height might be too much 25 ft might be too little so what we looked at were obviously the the regulation so you can see here that this is the tallest building right so it's 190 ft with the med bonus and then 33% of that would be 63 feet um so that would be onethird of the building height and you can see that only is allowed to be beyond the maximum Building height of a quarter of the floor below so keep in mind that rule so looking at the builtmore hotel that's going Beyond um that ratio of 33% of the maximum Building height for their architecture features that they have we looked at aamra Towers which got a variance actually to have even more height beyond their habital height so they're at 58% of the maximum habital space and then uh Sophia codina they are a little bit under I guess that 30 30% of their maximum height and the one we're more familiar with we talked about last time was the pon Park residence project which they're 38% beyond their maximum havl height so we've T talked about this with the board of Architects they feel that since it depends really on the size of the parcel the proportions the massing that it should be left up to the board of Architects and the proportions of the building of determine how high that extra architectural feature should should be and then moving on to last one was basically clarifying the definition of precedent so those are the nine summary changes that's before you right now and I think that's it yes thank you Jill how many speakers do we have in Chambers we have uh four could we uh go ahead and please call uh the first Speaker Cruz sure Armando not Denise carvalo I want to say thank you for going first ah it's a pleasure it's very nice to speak to all of you I know you have a big uh responsibility in front of you to decide on all those projects did you uh state your name and address my name Denise carvalo I live in 6308 cabal Boulevard and I'm here to speak uh about Mediterranean bonus for you guys uh so that you can help us uh preserve our our neighborhood um we need sustainability as you guys are saying we don't want exclusion from height because this is the GBL water Way project the way they are planning this is my house in pink if you can see this is this is the Mahi Canal cabaler Boulevard South alra up to here 45 ft is what they are allowed to build up to here is what they are asking and this would be the the extra features this this in blue so imagine the extra features they also bring Shades to our house all of these would bring shade to our house we the four uh the we have three houses here this this and this some of those houses here we are all represented here we are here to speak to you guys uh I wrote a letter for the Commissioners mayor and vice mayor regarding the meeting of the board of Architects uh something you guys need to work is that uh it's um the board of Architects were deciding on this project uh already planning that you guys are going to accept this height yes uh Gus uh the the the lawyer he said um let me see let me quote him um The Architects had to vote and they instructed the board to consider the developers request as if the zoning change had already been granted you guys are the ones that decide on the zoning change right so how they can they decide and vote uh in favor of the project if you haven't decided on the on the highight they present this this is huge and they're supposed to decide on the whistles and bells and if it's beautiful if it's not good if it's perfect if the material is like that but what about the mass and the compatibility with the environment they the Gus the the lawyer the attorney he said leave this to the board to to the Planning and Zoning you decide on the beauty but this even if it's like painted in Gold just like the most beautiful thing ever it's like bore is this good for this neighborhood I just I just want to ask something to Mr CER Mr CER yes sorry we're we're looking at the overall Mediterranean standards as opposed to looking at a specific project right I think there was I was trying to go over the minutes of your last meeting where I think Gus was um commenting about the role of the he he did I agree with that and and I they sorry he made all the ARs confus but but if I may my question is are we supposed to take up a specific yeah I'm not sure it's your to this is this item scheduled for hearing before the Planning and Zoning Board at this point or is this before the historic preservation board Mr chairman i' I'd like to interject go to your microphone make sure it's on no but not that one the on this there do trouble here please all right so I have a series of questions and I also got the verbatim minutes of our last meeting on the 27th and and I highlighted every word that Mr Sao said because if you recall from the previous meeting there was there was some type of well we misunderstood well when I read and highlighted what Mr saay said um I wasn't Off the Mark at all and I think because I was trying to follow the speaker she was talking about Mr Sao as the attorney not the attorney for that particular he was in the meeting of the board of cus and he was misleading The Architects into a decision in my point of view and can do we have um is it is your mic is the microphone on I'm having difficulty hearing the presenter are sorry is it on I don't know is there a button that in front maybe she just wasn't talking the mic directly the button just get close to the mic I think just stay close I'll do my best to be heard sorry I think also um for example staff came up with Graphics that I wish we would have had in our packets because I would have liked to have been able to read it understand it and be able to ask staff questions I think that's important so if you take this as not a specific project but as a generic project I think the point is incredibly poignant and just to understand the turquoise greenish uh color is the bonus component component the bonus component the bonus component you called it something else but it's the bonus yeah the bonus component right and I think also what you said was you were told but this is what they can build the pink one and in the law it said even more in the law the Caro Gable zoning uh code it said that if um mx1 or mf4 or whatever is located in front of a a canal or a waterway that is that faces single family homes they can only go up until 45 ft it's written on the code the code of the city and they're still trying to convince people to to put to put all these over and get this with the Mediterranean bonus this is up to you guys the pink one because it would be mf4 but it's against the law M Mr chairman I would use this as an example as an example I agree but not we're not discussing a particular project that's where my concern is that we're we're talking we can't all talk at the same time go ahead please fix in all fairness I think this is great this is an example of what you can and can't do the code is a basically a formula and and that's the application of a formula in this particular case it just so happens that in Section 5 20101 of the Coral Gables Mediterranean style design criteria and I have constantly said that we have a problem with the site specifics in this city where if you earn the bonus you can ignore and go above and beyond the site specifics I think that's dangerous I think it doesn't apply but on under Section 5201 a purpose and applicability and this has to do with the Coral Gables Mediterranean style design standards that incorporate a basic requirement standard and two additional levels under purpose and applicability under three it says site specific zoning regulations and Mediterranean bonuses the reason this is important is that it says it may be awarded a supplemental additional intensity density or the reduction of existing limitations as assigned in appendix a site specific regulations so the reason that it's important to understand that is that how can you assume that the upzoning is going to be approved furthermore under number seven of that same section it says special location site plan review and it calls out all these different zonings says it says these all these zonings districts which are adjacent to or cross the public ralway or Waterway from any single family residence District or fm1 the district shall comply with the following requirements to secure bonuses so how the hell can you give someone bonuses when you don't have the up zoning secured now you've put the bo the board of Architects who could do things about massing you've just cornered them them into a corner where now they say oh my gosh now look at the size of the building so you're saying that it went from 45 ft which is the lower part to what and and I I didn't do properly 190 is up to here because but I I just want to be clear this is I want to be careful that we're not looking at a specific project what you have done is you've brought us an example yes of the Mediterranean bonus and what can be done and that's what we're discussing and Mr chairman exactly before for the record I have asked staff to give us examples which today they had certain examples of certain components of certain things but volumetrically this shows you the danger of when you don't have compatibility and when you you force the board of Architects now to look at something that doesn't exist and it says here by the way under special location site review height limitations limited to a maximum height of 3 and 1/2 stories or 45 ft so in other words the board has the ability of saying wait a minute we we can't even evaluate the project or the massing because the zoning that you have how would we then all of a sudden say oh we're going to go from 45 ft to 100 and some odd feet that is crazy the other thing is that the review process says to S you have to secure certain special locational site plan reviews Etc it really is disturbing when you actually read the words that are in plain English of section 5201 which is is just uh uh wrong and then the review and authority of the board of Architects and by the way the city architect is sitting back there waving is was that a white flag you like yes absolutely and and the thing is that it says the Board of Architects shall be responsible Felix what I what I'd also like to do though is before we get into the heavy nitty-gritty of all the comments I'd like to hear everybody speak and then I I I because I think what we're going to do is get into yes a discuss I apologize I I am saying that this is an the way I see it it's an example agreed and I think it's important and the other thing is that the city the city of I'm sure uh Juan were you there Thursday I'm sorry were you there for this project on Thursday that you said yeah and and during the discussion he can talk about examples I'm just my concern is we don't have before us a specific project that we're looking at and and the way that we need to look at it and I think the way the speaker has presented it is as an example of what could be done and that's what we should be looking at this point when the project comes before for us it's a different point right now we're just looking at Mediterranean standards and so forth and and one last thing Mr chairman just to be crystal clear with the rest of the board members and the public thank you Felix thank you everyone when when you when you look when you look at this and and you're you're looking at the Mediterranean design standards Etc we we went over the checklist these are the checklist items this is this is the the road map of how you get to the checklist map and there are certain things in there that are as or more important than any of those elements that are in the checklist I want everyone to keep that in mind thank you I agree thank you very much thank you for coming up next speaker please Kathy Bernette sorry ber I think it is hi I'm Kathy burn white uh 6304 welcome I would like to reiterate what my neighbor has said I live in the house that's next to her closer to the development but the board of architectures the Board of Architecture wanted to turn down this project because of mass and the lawyer said Mr saos no you approve it on Aesthetics and then we'll go to zoning to see what they say about the mass now Mr parto at your last meeting you said um the board is 100% within the purview to look at massing and even in here it says this is the this is 501 7 C see the extent to which property the proposed plan departs from zoning and subdivision regulations including but not limited to the density size mass bulk and use and the reasons why such departures are not deemed to be in public interest must be disclosed and and that didn't happen they got the Mediterranean bonus with without jumping through all of the Hoops they did the checklist and the thing is they were the board was directed by the attorney to ignore the massing to ignore what the Board of Architecture said it their job was to preserve the traditional character of the neighborhood the board they were they were worried about that they didn't want to they didn't want a rule they wanted to to make them go back to the ding board but the lawyer said no you rule on the Aesthetics and we'll then go to the zoning board to to see if they change it and that it's bass award if you will Mr chairman I just want to caution the board this item is going to be noticed for this meeting and we wouldn't want to make a decision on this item when the all the parties aren't represented so I think if we look at this more from example for the standard rather than getting the specifics of what this board did or didn't do but rather how the code should read I think that would be a agre the best way that's my concern on it my goal would be to say you have to approve the building as it is for zoning traffic parking all of that and then it goes to the Board of Architecture to see how lovely the building is I mean we put lipstick and mascara on the pig but it's still a pig and that's what happened here and I appreciate you and coming up here and and exposing this because we have a flaw in the process I brought this up before it's the cart before the horse you know how can I understand the board of Architects is into the Aesthetics okay but you can't approve something like this okay where where it's a zoning change yeah so it's a it's a cart before the horse so I think the best thing that this board can do as opposed to the checklist Juliet balconies and all that stuff it's how we get there that's the most important thing that we can do up here and we've I think we have been kind of ignoring that because there are other applications that we should be looking at Also regarding work order changes when something's approved and all of a sudden we have sliders instead of what was already approved I mean the process is extremely flawed that's what we should be focusing on but to be fair the Board of Architecture they were going to deny this Mediterranean bonus until the lawyer spoke up and said rule on the Aesthetics not on the bulk and mass that's the thing the lawyer I seems to me gave the wrong advice based on your own the extent to which the proposed plan departs from zoning Mr chairman yes sir um this is the part of the process of what is considered and not considered I feel strongly about it I called out the city attorney's office on this before I stand by the words I used and they are part of the verbatim minutes before this is over I want to read just some of the highlighted minutes of the exchange between Mr saos and myself we can do that when we and Mr chairman the only thing I I can tell you right now is I don't appreciate if we're doing the process wrong because then the rest of his sad continue please I I think I've said my pie thank you thank for listening thank you for the floor thank you for coming next Maria Cruz Mrs Maria Cruz welcome Mrs Maria Cruz 1447 Miller Road as you can see I do not live in the area but Mediterranean bonus has nothing to do with one area we're talking the whole city and this is where the problem is it's wonderful when you see projects that are beautiful that would be wonderful in other places but then they try to put him in the wrong place and this is what the problem is I think that my issue my big issue is how what you're doing is wonderful let's look at standards like but how are you going to enforce what you're saying because if people can go how was there or Thursday too but forget about Thursday how do we enforce what you're saying when it gets to the point that the project comes in and they you know they bought a land that fits only this size building but they want to build this side building and we're going to force the issue somehow ignoring their requirements and this is what the anguish that you feel from the residents you know the ones are really getting affected which could be any of us in the future because this is why what you're doing is so important it doesn't you know we're not talking about one project we're talking about how what you're doing is going to affect the rest of us and this is the serious part the bonus there's a reason for the bonus there's a reason but there are's some criteria that has to be followed nobody can say oh ignore this criteria just go ahead and do this no this is this is my concern how how are you going to make sure that what you are agreeing on what you because you've done a wonderful job how is going to go from here to there to me there is a problem with the process we are looking at the beauty of the building before making sure that the building fits where they want it what it should be the the other way first we should have you know if I'm going to if I'm going to have a uh somebody made a dress for me right and I buy a fabric that will not make it what good is it that the the design is beautiful but the dress doesn't the the fabric I bought doesn't allow for that dress because it won't be big enough and this is what you're trying to do in some places in this city that we're forgetting we're ignoring we're pretending instead of making sure that what you're doing which is very valid and very good maybe it should be the other way around maybe we should go through Planning and Zoning before we look at what we're going to put there because if you all do not GR brand the stuff then what purpose is it to look at the design see I think that's what the problem is what good is the design if it doesn't fit where you want to put it but Maria I got a question for you would you feel comfortable approving a zoning change without seeing something what it's going to look like to me that's a problem too right those are the problems that we have because for me is you know I I and I hear you and I agree to certain extent that we should approve a Zone change but I need to see something before I gave the but do you really need to see how it looks as opposed to the size that is because see there's the difference you can have a pretty building that is smaller it doesn't have to be that big yeah but Maria but you need to look at it contextually how it's going to fit everything like I feel I will feel very you know I would not support changing a zoning you know a l use change a zoning change with that scene was going to go there so I think it's it's very hard what comes first and what goes second well well isn't there a conceptual design review I mean can't you have a skin something that without all the detail without all the architectural detail that we could look at previous but that's that's what they're doing at the board of Architects we can't theair wait wait we need to have a little bit of control let's understand what the the big the big issue to me to me and like I said at this point I'm not affected but it could be anybody's problem the problem is how do you make sure that what you're saying which is very reasonable I think fits when it goes someplace else also remember that in people's mind you know when you go and you say oh this board or that board already approved it they feel that that means that you or CAU between rock and a heart place because if they all thought it was very good how could you not go along with it you see what I'm saying how do you how do you what is there to do to keep this issue from happening time and time again is an it's an and maybe this is to a question to the arch to the city archite the conceptual approval process that was implemented shouldn't that you know taken to the board conceptually approved yes come on up please but conceptually approved but not get the med bonus until it comes to us then you go back that may be the solution so Juan rco City architect um the conceptual review process that we have in place Now does not profer a disposition first of all the conceptual review that we do do now at the boa level is purely an aesthetic discussion on design the big picture questions there is no disposition there is no requirements for submitt it's a it's purely a discussion that what it does is it assists the developer in aligning their project with the city's requirements so we try to help them at that level that's what we have in place now now if you're thinking that it should be modified then maybe that's a discuss maybe that's what should happen that process should happen but but that's not what we have in place currently right but what I'd like to remind the board is that discussion I think we should have after the speakers have put in all their comments we've taken our notes we're putting the little bug in your ear so you know what needs to be discussed oh I write it down thank you thank you back down yes thank you uh Armando good evening board uh my name is Armando Perez I live at 6312 K bevard 6312 C Boulevard Amando Perez um I'm just GNA say pretty much what Denise and and my other neighbors have stated um there there seems to be a flaw in the system where where a med bonus is awarded when a conceptual review should be kind approved or or and and then and then you guys go through your process approve the mass and the size of the building then it goes back to the city architect I mean to the board of Architects and they review and they put the bells and whistles on the buildings as they see fit not when it goes through this process they the well is kind of poisoned when they've already rece somebody receives a bonus of two stories and additional Mass based on the potential um change of a code um and then they they could come to the board and argue their case City uh the city the board of Architects has already approved this this project they're they're good to go they say it's the best thing they've ever seen since slice bread and then you guys are forced to oh maybe we should change um or approve a variance or or go from an M MF or mx1 to mf4 whatever the code terms are that's all I was going to say because it does impact a lot of families and and whatnot uh these changes are pretty drastic thank you thank you sir do we have any more speakers Jill and Chambers no more speakers do we have any speakers on Zoom no I've forwarded an message and no one has indicated they want to what about the phone platform no okay at this time I'm going to go ahead and close it for public comment and I like to go ahead and open it for discussion um chip I'd actually like for you to go first if you're okay with that I am if I sound a little slurry my left side of my mouth is a little numb so I apologize um but but I I didn't really see all this coming but I think it's a huge issue um I think that um maybe a solution the properties that are built by right probably can go through a normal process I'm guessing I'm just trying to figure out how to cut the baby here because those properties really as long as they're within the the code then we probably won't even you know be that much involved with them I I would suspect is that generalization that's reason all so we're really looking at those that are pushing the envelope beyond what our code States anyway is is what I see so if if that's the case to me an architect is is gifted enough to take a mass and I guess you Architects can speak to this you can make taller buildings look smaller and mass massive buildings look less massive I mean is that a goal when you design buildings and and so you know may maybe there's a middle ground in there somewhere where the process can move forward and I don't know what the cost is on this I don't know what the options are on this but can a person design two different buildings based on what they can anticipate size and massing yes if I may please just respond Mr Wither's comment uh because it's Salient to what what we're discussing today um an Architecture Firm and a developer when they go through the process of Designing a building and presenting it for potential approval and I I emphasize the word potential approval because until it gets approved it's not approved all right and they take a risk as we have seen uh for example in the US One Shopping Center the old uh uh Pier One Shopping Center across from um they came in with a project which this board said forget it it's too big it's non compatible with the neighborhood and guess what all the money they spent on that is now garbage and they get to start all over again and that's the risk they want to take now if that's something they want to do they're welcome to it but that's why they have to come here for approval and if they have received Board of architect approval which is what had happened on the particular project that I'm I'm mentioning and I'm only bringing it up because it's now history it's not yet to come there may be another project coming but at least the one that was submitted was completely and roundly and resoundingly rejected so I don't see the necessary glitch in the system that has been been proferred I think that the process of the board of Architects may want to emphasize more the massing especially when you have adjacency issues of regarding scale and then put the breaks on it at that point and saying hey you know you're welcome to present it but you're not going to get it necessarily approved because you not going to approve it because it's not compatible with the neighborhood we have a compatibility Clause that we've approved and we're going to be submitting now we need to give it teeth and the board of Architects is the one who's going to be able to tell them yes or no as to whether or not it's compatible before they gets to here assuming that they need something else beyond that now we're talking specifically about a planned area development projects these are projects that are going to have more than 200 linear feet of Frontage or a certain amount of area or acreage or or in this case in some cases I want to say this case but in some cases adjacency to public rights away and uh waterways Etc and other special features of the city which make them unique and important to the ultimate development of the fabric of our city so whereas I see that our process is not necessarily flawed I think that we could probably emphasize it more by allowing the board of Architects to deny projects that are not compatible with their with the surrounding neighborhood and just leave it at that and then if it gets passed as a compatible project and it still is in need of an approval because it's a pad because by by definition a pad has to come to this board for approval before it's approved by commission then that should be the process so does if if it's does not pass the board of Architects does it come to us in the same way it's presented to the board of Architects not until it's pass the board of ARG but but I I don't think that's the problem Javier I think the problem is that it goes to the board gets to materum bonuses without getting even a conceptual that if you my opinion analyze the process you should go to the board get a conceptual doesn't mean it's getting the mediterian bonus getting it potentially could get there but you have to come to the plan zoning get this the up zoning whatever process will take and then you got to go back to get the Mediteranean bonuses again developers and we as Architects sometimes take this on as a risk assuming that we're going to be building something that's compatible and that we're going to be able to present it to the board and to the city and to our fellow Neighbors in a way that they're going to approve of it now the board of Architects is charged with here compatibility review what we're talking about here is compatibility issues if they if they don't approve it based on a compatibility issue or then there's no reason why it should come to us it should come to us approved ready to go unless we want to say okay you got to submit for zoning review on a on a on a card board box volumetric bases that is of use to no one and you that's exactly what you said no they're not design buildings I disagree with you because you you you're making the board of Architects give mediterraneum bonuses without having to come here so I I mean I I don't I disagree with you a th% I think the process conceptually it could get approved then you get the up zoning you get whatever and then you got to go back for the Aesthetics of the building I and that's not the way the process is being conducted today because we don't have those requirements and I I totally agree with you Robert and that's why I was getting it some can you repeat that yeah please on the record thank you Su that's your Christmas present but I told and I guess that's what I was alluding to originally going with a concept okay come here for either approval or denial of the upzoning and then go back to the board of Architects for the bells and whistles it just makes sense it does make sense I I would like one you know the city architect to what's your opinion on that again Von rco City architect um I I feel I sat on the board for 10 years okay and and I felt awkward when I reviewed projects of this nature where we were told the height is not something that we discuss okay the height if if if this up zoning allows 13 stories and the developer comes in with a 13 story building that in a sense was taboo we could talk about the mass we could talk about the scale we could talk about the envelope we could talk about the finishes we can talk about the materials but we were always and this is going back to the previous Planning and Zoning director and and so this was a contention that I felt when I was I sat there we were approving or reviewing projects and granting Med bonuses based on the supposition that this zoning change was going to happen that that was a directives that we were given we have to look at the Project based on the fact that this thing is happening so that changes the dynamic of how you look at things and yes we could have discussions about the mass if we felt the building was too fat too short Too Tall too skinny too wide uh not enough movement in the building not enough up and down not enough in and out I mean we we talked about all those things but this discussion has been going on for years and and and Mr saos I think touched on that subject in the last meeting we had and again this is the scen scenario that we get put in it's it's awkward from from our perspective yes it is the board the board members feel somewhat strange that they're looking at something that's not really there in terms of zoning and so we get shut down and so we try to limit the discussion the direction of the conversation towards what we feel is important to the board of the building gets built the materials that get put in how the building addresses the compatibility within that constraint where the height we in other words we were told hey you cannot tell somebody you can't do a 13 story building that's not acceptable uh from the board of Architects rebuttal that was not allowed that could that was not up for discussion and so we have to deal with what we get handed in in terms of policy procedure protocols we we go by what we were told and that's what we did again when I sat on the board and that's what I'm doing now as a city architect because it's been very clear to me that that's the way that the process in this particular City Works and and I think it works that way in other municipalities but other municipalities don't have the board of Architects other municipalities may or may not Grant bonuses but my understanding putting myself on the shoes of the the developer okay I'm coming to this city to do a project and like every good developer I want to max out my site right that's that's kind of I mean all the architects in the room I think we've all heard that when we go to that first meeting I want the the highest and best use and I want to build the most that I can typically typically some developers understand that that quality is not that quality is better than quantity and and and and there's a couple developers in town that that respect that and appreciate that and do that but the typical developer wants to maximize his his investment and that's typical in this business you're going out in a limb like Javier said I'm going to spend $150 $200,000 on architectural fees to design a building that's 15 stories it's not guaranteed that I'm going to get approved that's my risk is a developer and I have the way the system works I have that opportunity to do that I want to push the envelope I want to maximize what I can do in this city I want to maximize my return and so that's what they do but again it's not guaranteed we Grant Med bonuses yeah that's one hurdle in a series of multiple hurdles it's got to go through pnz it's got to go to commission which ultimately is the body that grants the 13 or the 18 story building it's not really the boa it's not really pnz that discussion happens at the commission level where the negotiations are intense and what do we get if we give you an 18-story building what does the City of Coral Gables get we get a park we get uh infrastructure improvements we get upgrades to our fire systems whatever whatever the commission feels is is important to them at that particular time and moment that's up to them and and we don't get involved at that level so we try to limit our discussions to Aesthetics to our architectural elements to mass yes we do discuss Mass I know that you guys don't think we do but we discuss Mass extensively and and we feel for example in in the building and the model that she presented you know the model shows a a level rooftop that's not the case the building on cabayo steps down from 13 stories to I think N9 or seven nine to nine right 911 911 and 13 so so there's three tiers Excuse excuse me so there is a gesture that that that the Architects responded to in one of the early discussions when that project was brought to the city we we we talked about that hey you need to address the the residential neighborhood south of you you need to address the buildings on the east side you need to address US1 Corridor so all those things are discussed are somewhat negotiated in those meetings in multiple meetings uh we just granted yes we just granted Med bonus and last meeting but we're very far away from the design and and that's and that's a a uh a moment in time that I like to specify in my meetings is that I tell the developers hey just because you got Med bonus doesn't mean you got approval on the project that's just one step now we got to get into the nitty-gritty now we got to get into the buildings there's four or five different buildings that have to be evaluated and so we're going to go through each building one meeting at a time and discuss each particular building and how it works with the overall composition so there is a lot of scrutiny there is a lot of discussion about Mass but again the height issue is something that we've always been precluded from and and so that's just the the policy and the procedure we have in place Javier you had a Mr chair if I could be uh W just said something very important he says we approved the med bonus now we have to figure out the design that's backwards you just told them they can build no no no no no what we told them was that the direction that they're heading in in terms of the Aesthetics of the building is proper based on the med bonus requirements that's all we told them now we got to figure out the design which is the second hurdle and the bigger hurdle in my opinion well the thing that blocks all of that is the fact that they might not get the up zoning that's so so but that's not in our purview so what I'm going to suggest I'm going to make a suggestion there's two is issues that have come up the process is flawed number one and number two the marching orders are not following the code what the City attorney is telling the board of Architects is not following the law so we have two problems here I beg the differ and if I may yes uh why would you agree that any kind of approval where there's a bed bonus uh or the study of massing or anything like that is only going to be conditional upon the conditional approval of this board and then the final approval yeah theoretically that's that's that's the theory right that's the way it works right the understanding that everybody has that I submit a project for for a p pad somewhere on this in the city I'm not going to even say where and then I go and submit it and I'm I have different sight related issues around me that I have to address or not because the board of Architects is looking at the Aesthetics of that building only that's what one of the things I disagree with because you have a contextual issue you have to respond to that is part of the checklist and perhaps that needs to be underlined a little bit better more clearly to the board with regards to his contextual issue it's a zoning issue if if Z says I can put a eight-story building next to a house it allows it by right or by whatever the nature of the of the of the procedure how can we in good faith tell somebody hey you cannot no because that's you're talking about an established property right to some that's neily have to go against that but at the same time any any Med bonus that you grant is going to be conditional upon the approval of this board which is then conditional to the to the commission so we have two conditional approvals as I gave in my example we've seen where a developer has come up with a design got it through Board of Architects and it died a miserable disgusting death here because it was just too damn big and it was going to cast too big a shadow and it's coming after a series of really bad precedents around it and there are other properties in this area that are going to be developed and that are in the process of being developed but that that shot across a bow was very clear from this board as to what was going to be acceptable along the US One Corridor or other P developments coming forward with regards to their adjacency to single family neighborhoods and if they want to hear it that's fine if they want to take their money and throw it out the window that's their business as well we're not here to to fix up at the earliest stages there is a process the process has been defined we are refining and defining that process in which we have included contextual issues to be included as part of that review and your approval is always going to be conditional whether you like it or not it's conditional the board we Grant the board of Architects the the right to provide a conditional increase because of its Mediterranean character and having met the criteria that we're discussing here today but that approval is conditional absolutely then it comes to this board and then we say yes or no and let's take it a step further uh and then if we approve it if it goes to the commission they can say no which has happened which has happened a lot of times it it it it's happened several times so so the process works it the process does work it does work and and and I think it's it's in the big picture is probably the right way to do it when you think about the potential of the site and and I think that's what it's not pretty development is not pretty okay and it's back and forth and you're going to be negotiating with the neighbors negotiation that has Happ and you better out negotiate with those neighbors otherwise they're going to kill you I know whenever I go into a conference room with a developer or other people that they're going to try to max out everything I mean that's and that's and that's their right and that's what they want to do that's you know what Javier I totally disagree with you totally disagree with you and citing that one project that got ReSound like you say resly rejected it was n resly rejected there were some things we didn't like about it but it wasn't like damn you go away okay and you can't site that one project cuz there have been other projects that have come before this board that slid through so don't use that one project as being the example of how the process works it doesn't work we've seen things slip through the cracks constantly now is our opportunity and our responsibility to fix it we have to fix the process which is flawed and we have to fix the city attorney's office that is giving wrong direction to to boards the City attorney is not following the law well well I I don't know if I would I would say I would say the code is a law correct the code is a law we have Mr caller here let him so the reason there but now about 120,000 lawyers in Florida is that there's always disagreement on the interpretation of the law the the city attorney's office believes that the focus of board of Architects is on design and com and it talks about in the code specifically architectural compatibility it does reserve to this board the decision of whether the zoning should be granted or not granted and yes there's a risk to the to the developer they build a a beautiful building at uh whatever theoretical stories they want 13 stories that comes here and gets shot down now you have the option you have the opportunity if you choose to do so in looking at this code is to CH you can recommend that you should change the procedure and have this board look at it first that's part of your opportunity in in reviewing this that's the whole point of looking at this of the board of Architects and the criteria for Mediterranean Design now I think the focus really was on the design not necessarily in the procedure but since the board is a recommending board if you want to add a recommendation that you feel and you may not feel and maybe the majority doesn't feel that the process should be changed you can do that you can make that recommendation but the the real the focus of this was to go through the Mediterranean design standards and to figure that out I don't know if there was a thought when this was coming to you that you might change the procedure and have this board look at it first but I have told this board on many occasions when we've had zoning matters and there's something you didn't like I think there was a lighting standard you were unhappy about and I said you can address the commission and say we're unhappy about the lighting standard as and this has come up and that you can add that to your recommendation Mr chairman yes sir um I disagreed with Mr poer on one thing as I I did pretty well if all you disagreed with me as on one thing I I want to make sure and I thought I thought I made it clear that the sections that have to do with Mediterranean orance is not just the checklist we concentrated a lot about the features the aesthetic features and and way when the preliminary the preliminary design concept to come before the board was brought up by the Mediterranean Blue Ribbon committee that I chaired and that two other members on this board were on that Mediterranean Blue Ribbon committee the reason that that was so important was to discuss also the massing which Mr didn't say the first time but he did say it the second time he came up the massing is extremely important well I believe in the if I might say in the in the record from the previous meeting uh Gus Cabo did mention the massing did he not I was just looking at the I was not here for him but I thought he did read this into the record at another time okay meeting we're after this meeting we're at the end of this meeting okay and and the reason is because I disagree because what he said and what has been purported that he did by the neighbors that were there is very different so one of the things is that Mr beart has a very good point and that is that well you know if if we could have maybe a two-step type of thing just so happens that on on the 10th of July I brought up a two-part boa review approval here are my handwritten notes I brought it up and oh it's too complicated well there's a need for it sometimes the other thing is so there's no disagreement what this neighbor did and by the way I'm not putting my shoes in the developer shoes I'm I'm putting my shoes in the Resident shoes because they're the ones that are affected directly by it the other people just make money and I'm sick and tired of it and I'll tell you right now everybody has a right to do that but the problem is not at the cost of destroying neighborhoods that's where the in incompatibility comes up so if this particular neighbor that did a Model on her own which explains volumes of what works and doesn't work what I've asked staff to do in the past is simply to come up with a volumetric model of what the existing code is or the existing zoning is and then based on massing and then what happens when you upzone it and that's a particular there there's nothing wrong with that because there you could see what the impact is in the incompatibility with or compatibility with the surrounding neighborhood it's not rocket science and I really have an issue with the way that this is done because when you look at Mr Sao saying so there is zoning related items meaning upzoning changes of compound other things that are not within the purview of the board of Architects said the board but then when the design review of the building happens which is the second step because typically the board will grant the bonus first and then review the design I have heard more than once board members on this planning board say well it was approved for for bonuses by the boa well and then what you're not seeing is what happened with someone putting their finger on the scale when it comes before the boa and you're telling someone you can't do this you can't do this you can't do that that's wrong but I think that staff providing this is the zoning and this is the zoning up zoning and then this is the zoning with the boa approval to it and then let's see what happens around it as far as compatibility he also said that even though in particular situations they could do 100 ft to 120 ft because of the surrounding neighborhood and because of the context that they believe the boa that they believe that the appropriate building here should be for 80 ft so now you're telling someone that couldn't simply look at the messing with the existing zoning versus the up zoning but now you're going to let them see if they can reduce once you gave them the bonus see you could reduce it to 80 ft that is the most absurd argument I've heard Felix if I just want to ask chip be because I know that you're lengthy and you want to get this into the record chip are you done with your with your comments kind of Mr chair I mean I mean there there's a lot there's I was taking a little longer because I saw him drooling I'm getting I'm getting I'm getting feeling back so so he's ready to go no no no no I just Felix I'll ask you to go after him we have to understand you know government hates being subjective government likes to be objective as possible they have to be because they they got both sides to deal with it and so you know trying to find the subjectivity in this whole issue I think is probably one of our biggest challenges I I really do I mean because I hear what you're saying I mean that's what I what you said I never thought we were going to go down this road um it's been discussed a lot since I've been around is is are we out of sync is what comes first and what comes second so I think it's a healthy discussion though I really do I I saw uh the honored um a citizen who just so happens we honored him first you know through the Rotary Club of a gentleman that was a teacher at corl gable high school for 65 years yeah and probably failed you right gave me a c in typing which I did not deserve so I I put my money on so so the thing is that the last thing he said after accepting the thing very humble man great person he can't say enough great things about he says and I can't believe I'm still here in this beautiful city Etc the only thing is I'm surrounded by 13 story buildings that is one of the saddest things I've ever heard everybody here has got to get this and if we don't get it right we're doomed so I would say also that we need to make sure that when we have people representing Us in whatever Department that they understand that the board of Architects is not an aesthetic review board the board of Architects has one of the most important functions in this city and if you're allowed to make them or allow them to do their work they will do great work but if you tie their hands it's impossible for you to get good work out of anyone Mr parto can you speak into the the microphone please sorry thank you I can hear him fine fine they're not so I would say that the most important part is that you can look at a project that's being absorbed without looking at the potential mass and what the impact is around the Sur rounding neighborhood that is rule number one and the second thing is that whether it's a two-part vaa review approach whether it goes here or there yes I agree with Robert that we shouldn't have someone approve the zoning without a plan because the plan also will reflect massive depending on the talent of the designer and also the greed of the person trying to make money off it if they're trying to do something that goes to the ultimate Max or Beyond so if you put two PBS in a one pound bag usually that doesn't work very well but I think it's really really important that the board of Architects understands that that staff understands it in the preparation and I think that it's very very important that we all understand that this is part of the Mediterranean code it's the first section it is the road map and I just want to make sure that everybody on this board understands it and it it really is uh essential if we're going to make sure that the impact on all their properties that they've liveed there I'm sure for years that all of a sudden they don't have let's say it one last time you know another Plaza surrounding them I don't think that's right it's not right today and won't ever be right chip are you uh I'm done you're done Felix pleas continue what he he's done I'm done okay Sue what he said and what he said but um there are some other than you sue that's twice but but there there's uh another portion in here that also goes to the process that I think we need to discuss and that's on page four and it regards any change to the approved design the wording is uh it's on page four let's see it's uh number eight additional uh requirements and it's C everybody have that any approve I think this is too uh I'll say gelatinous it's um it's very vague any change to the approved design approved by whom which exceeds 5% of what of that which was originally approved shall be reviewed by the board of Architects development services director or designate and City architect for compliance with the original approval it doesn't have any consequences okay Jennifer can you elaborate on that yeah so this is actually put in um as a response I think to the P when we had met early last year about this went through line line line um Thea as you know changed design from Board of Architects approval through the permitting process and there wasn't really any teeth I guess that staff could point to saying you can't do that so we put that in there for those kinds of deviations from the approved uh plan listen I I I think this is a great start but it needs more language is what I'm I'm getting it it's too vague I think it just needs to be made clear it needs to be made clear needs to be clarified and and let me Ju Just say where I'm coming from on this because I know of two projects only in my neighborhood I can't imagine how how this has gone on throughout the entire Coral Gables but the poo and the vanera project now known as the standard Mediterranean bonus guess what both of those projects have sliding glass windows okay was there a change order for the vanera I know there was a change Vera I'm not sure of I think the Poo was approved with horizont roller Windows no no no no no there was a change order I saw the change order I I asked for the change order it was signed off by who knows I can't even read the signature it was signed off by somebody I have no idea who it was at the city you're saying somebody signed off a CH we don't sign change orders first somebody signed a change order sign we sign approved drawings or rejected drawings but we don't sign change Ord so when so when there's a change order who signs who signs a change order to the owner I don't think she's referring to a change order the way you and I know I think it's she's referring to a modification or revision that came CH to the design right yeah not we don't do change order change order for us is I'm sorry I'm sorry if I have the wrong terminology thank you Robert but what whatever made that happen it went from Mediterranean Windows to Sliding Windows okay and we can say oh yeah that was a mistake oh yeah well what about the Venera mistake and those are only two projects in one neighborhood what about the rest of the city who the heck approves change not change who who who who approves this I I I mean look the language that I would like to see here is language that says if there's anything that changes from the original design it has to go back to square one okay and especially when it takes out one of the Mediterranean requirements Windows very important right that's a major not a numerical 5% not a numeric 5% any change from actually came from remember the discussion we had when um a neighbor from Alex uh Adams was here he talked about he went through his list of changes he mentioned that the board kind of seemed acceptable to that that's where they came from but we can go back to the original of any changes absolutely I I want to do that um just so you you know and understand is I review the construction drawings after the board approves them and I have had this discussion with Developers already where that's happened where somebody wants to supersede or change something that wasn't approved at board level and my response to them always is if you change the windows or if you change the doors or you move the fence you go you got to go back to boa and then they panic and they don't do it happen several times how did the P get through something gets slid in at the back end during construction that is a bit more complex cuz I don't do inspections none of my my Bo guys do inspections this is left up to the zoning inspectors and the building inspectors so if there's changes during construction that's and and again we've aligned ourselves now with the zoning inspectors I've had several meetings with our zoning inspectors and we've had this discussion it it's happening on res on the smaller scale work on the larger projects it's even more important but on the residential work we have people all the time changing out types of Windows Doors roof tiles paint colors fence types I mean it happens daily and it's something that we do at staff level and we try our best you know to review the projects to go back to the boa approved drawings that are in the archives we cross reference those drawings against what they're submitting now and nine times out of 10 we probably find something okay always that one that gets away and we didn't catch it we missed it we weren't sharp enough that day we weren't paying attention we're all I appreciate your efforts I really do want but I think there has to be something more formal in this language that says if there is any deviation from the plans that have been approved it has to go back to square one number one number two if something slips through there has to be consequences why aren't the developers fined or made to change those windows if they're doing it on their own yeah again I'll I'll I'll explore that on the vanera and the P both I I'll find out and I'll get back to you on that I am not aware of that change order you mentioned well it's not that that was pre my tenure so okay I'll look at both of those buildings I really would like to know who approve that because they should be fired okay I will I will look into it I think they're already gone yeah they're probably working for the developer they're working for the developer that may be something let's concentrate no no they would not be working for the developer not that let's concentrate on what we have before us tonight to move forward Sue do you have any more comments uh no but uh I I really think this is the most important thing we can do I'll reiterate is the process okay the process and straightening out what the boards are being told their purview is and I appreciate what you're saying and trying to do and and the more ammunition you give us the more power we have so go for it honestly you know change the wording make it more specific make it more detailed because that makes my job easier all I got to do is say hey guys there it is you got I don't there's no discussion there's no let's meet let's let's do this no no no it's black and white you made a change to the approved design you have to go back to boa I don't want to have a discussion with you okay so how does so we can clarify that so we can say any architectural change I don't want you to think that the building gets higher or they encroaching the setback here that they're going to go back to board of Architects I mean square one as far as architect change is Board of Architects right or city architect Ian the majority we look at our features elements you know finishes materials that that's what we guard that's what we want when we ask people to give us a higher quality building and then again the value engineering the the cost over runs the schedule delays at the end they all want to just finish and they want to cut stuff out and unfortunately we don't allow it this isn't a site plan change this only architectural right I understand it but if you could strengthen the language and also the process of who has to sign off on the change and what are the cons I think we need something in here what are the consequences if somebody you don't get your permit pardon me you won't get a don't continue with the permit yeah you don't get a per yeah the consequence is we don't approve the change well two two buildings got cosos how did that happen I've been told there was what I'm talking about there there has to be some consequences there has to be consequences and I'd like to see that in here because I think by if a developer sees this and say holy or somebody at the city sees this I'm going to get fired if I do this or the developer says you'll never build in the City of Coral Gables again I mean you have to have some teeth in this there has to be consequences you want teeth I like your point and I would like to offer a suggestion I don't argue with you on anything that's important before we go Javier is are you done Sue okay that way go ahead all right uh I have a series of points I'd like to discuss based on the fact that I came in a little bit late and I and I missed uh the last meeting that we had uh until the very end uh so but before I go to that uh I'd like to make a suggestion that on that particular point that Sue was bringing out it says you just add the caveat or a CO will be denied until such time as compliance is achieved simple as that and then guess what you've got their attention believe me you've got their attention and I would be all in favor of having that in there or it gets approved as to removal by all the steps yeah that's fine we can put that in there that's fine and that and that would be that would solve that problem so anyway back to the points that we have so I'm going to offer that as a suggestion whenever we get to the point of making a motion on this item um page six section 2D uh internation that's a big ass word can we just use just use Excuse me that's a big word can we just use columns column proportions and spacing yeah yes it's the spacing that you're talking about yes page eight this would be section four top of the page facades of large scale build shall be articulated through the application of special architecture ornate elements such as etc etc etc uh and other ornate features or materials I would like to add the word materials this is before after features right and just add or materials okay uh page nine section 5D pches to May encroach at a maximum of 5T into the front setback I would add where side setbacks of in where side setbacks are 10 ft or more sorry for D the 5 foot encroachment into the front setback and side setbacks as well into the front setback or side setback if 10 ft or more okay you may some some areas you have a 5 foot 5 foot setback you put a stoop in there you're cutting off a movement of water and people Etc that's good 10 page 10 um I Thought page 10 uh section 10 parking garages uh screening materials for parking garage openings shall only include and you have a material which I don't believe is allowed wood I don't think it's feature we we do decorative wood on on commercial buildings yeah louvers grills we we we accept that at the boa level whether it's allowed you're not allow you're not allowed for structural I'm sorry you're not allowed for structural on a multi-story building probably not allowed to have wood in any building on a type one building you're not allowed to do a wood structure wall but this would not be structural this would just be screening these are screens yeah these are used to screen my concern is that it's going to be an isore coming down the road later again these are things that are vetted by the board during the design review process we question them as long as the applicant shows us on the detail say include treated wood we discuss it or if I may heavier there's also metals that look like wood today yeah that's actually frowned upon by the board it is the board does not appreciate looking like something the board is can we add insect resistant wood what's that can we use the word ins resistant no no cedar is insect resistant you can use cedar there's sections in the code that allow wooder zoning code right like trellises in commercial you're allowed to do in a trellis out of Ceder we've done it we done it and I don't have a problem with on the roof the pool areas you know Southern yellow pine and we got a problem and it's allowed here all that's it it's a technical issue it's done a lot um pool at pool levels Comm areas let me finish I think that that's something that we I would insert the wood the the term insect resistant ahead of wood the the type of wood species that's in the code right now address that issue I I you're right it does I know okay that's what I just wanted to perfect it's in there forget what I said next 11 page 11 section 11 right above where it says streetcape and public realm buildings and open space design shall be coordinated with existing and proposed public realm enhancements for adjacent RIS ways to ensure unified and pedestrian friendly work friendly public spaces so you want add the words existing and proposed yep it forces them to coordinate in with public works and make sure that we're not doing something cross purposes between what what has been designed by public works and approved by by you guys and what is being proposed in a project and hopefully and hopefully they work together okay I've seen where it doesn't many times as have you I'm sure 12 p uh where we're talking about section 13 windows and doors shall be vertically proportionate or subdivided to appear vertical horizontal windows and I would add the word and doors are prohibited I had a question about that also is that horizontal format or horizontal rolling Windows rolling rolling right mhm okay the type of window it's not the the layout of the window the proportion of it yeah which I think we don't want horizontal windows on a med building because and we don't want do which which is a rolling door what's that and a sliding door is a rolling door a slider yes yeah yeah okay so windows or doors so replace and with or is that what I'm gathering I said windows and or doors oh well horizontal acting windows and or is sort of um how about Windows and Doors can they do either I would say windows or doors or both windows and doors if you want to be very specific or that's why we have you here right all right and I'll think windows or doors covers it which would allow I'm not as much of a legal Wordsmith as you are looking at it from English that's why I'm sitting here with you perfect and I and I appreciate it thank you um the rest of the items the 11 we talked about examples given in the code we I like the I like the samples you came in with the with the uh the graphics of allowed they don't look uh height increases the architectural features yeah yeah I think if we we had that in in plan elevation and perhaps a three-dimensional it would probably be much more illustrative and might might benefit all of us going forward and that would be my suggestion aier can I just go back to one of your points here um 14 regarding the horizontal sliding windows and doors prohibit on prohibited on the exterior building facade what about what about so that's the face that's the front right right well the p is sticking out like a sore thumb and you see three sides of that building from US1 so do we want to see sliders on the sides of the buildings that you that that's visible from the street that would still be the exterior of the facade pardon me it's still the exterior of the facade whether it's the front or the side not just the front right no no it's it's the entire wrap around the building but if you set your balcony terrorist in they don't really mind if it's a roller at that point you don't see it that's a discussion we've had if if the balcony has a deep recess they can do something different there because it's not visible from the plane of the building okay thank you going back to that one I would limit it to uh those that are doors and window that are within five or 6 ft of the face of the building truly when they're set when they're set back then they're not necessarily visually impacting but I didn't want to go there and create that condition but that's something to consider we don't have a measurement no I think again it's up to the board they they look at that and they've they've openly as I recall at our last meeting uh from what I saw you said that there's a there's a there's a movement of foot for for these folding animals right that animals yeah a lot of people are are looking at that now and as long as they're they're vertically divided and they're they as long as they look like a French door I don't think we have an issue with it what we don't want is the little thin they're on the same plane yeah they're on the same plane and they don't in the the sliding doors have and ideally they are set back from the facade quite typically typically again that that's that's our that's our request but we have to again negotiate with people sometimes it's not always black and white problem is getting the pressure okay yeah Felix covered this one by the way I want to say thank you to uh our fellow board member Felix for having done such a wonderful review of this um Med bonus criteria thank you I saw it the word excruciating no it wasn't excruciating but it was H it was very informative very on point and very helpful as I went through it again in preparation for tonight than um s page 14 uh section one or C and loas about the middle of that section when using callings from a classical order EG tusind Doric Ionic Corinthian or composite the correct elements and proportions of that order shall be used I would add the term generally accepted after the word the' generally accepted correct cor elements and proportions that are of the order shall be used okay and those would be then vrus vinola luchin there's lots of but they're all generally accepted so they don't come in with something crazy we have several classically trained Architects on the board that look at that yes so you know I know them I'm I'm one of them believe it or not I actually went to the Bose arts and studied there there you go how about that uh page 16 Felix got that one as well uh okay I had an issue here uh on page 16 section 7 and Felix partially addressed it but I just want to go over it again so we can clarify it each multif family zone property shall provide at least 20% of the required ground level landscape open area percentage based on the total area as publicly accessible my my problem with it is English because you've got as publicly accessible I assume your intent is that that 20% is accessible to the public from a public RightWay is that correct correct yes is that your intent they can't fence it they can't enclose it yeah can we say that that's the intent can we that's the intent but that's not what it says that's my understanding when when you say that but I would ask I would add some sort of term that says it's uh readily accessible readily publicly accessible so that the I do have a question on that yeah do we use publicly accessible in other places in the code we have remember this is optional this is one of the options they can pick and choose because if we start changing to readily accessible which is perfectly okay then I then we're going to have to do it throughout because somebody say well you it here but you didn't express it there then perhaps what we can do it is in the definitions of publicly accessible and say that areas that are readily accessible from the public right away you you reminded me that there's still references in the other sections of the mediteran code that still call you know the three levels instead of now it's called prerequisite and level one level two you may want to go back and take a look oh you found some oh found three okay I just forgot next section uh and again Felix addressed this uh last time we met but I wanted to just underline it because there was something I wanted to clarify de and this the next section having to do with the developer shot contribute one qu% .25% of the aggregate project value to an established fund for landscape acquisition and the creation of parks etc etc etc uh where it says project value is that is that defined somewhere I believe it's defined our definition so I can double check can we check that because right now project value can mean anything I think that was Robert who made that point okay thank you Robert you're very welcome here's another one Felix brought up let me see here uh okay thank you we're going to leave that in that was clarified did we decide or not to uh leave public art since public art is um on page 17 section n pedestrian amenities including public art are we leaving public art in the list because there were some discussion last time with regards to uh its inclusion as because there's art in public places that may or may not be in conflict with us well the article place has to go through a whole process this would just be P aart that go througha process I guess again when you say public art it could be a mural it could be lots of different things and there's no necessarily if it's the owner provided uh the the developer provided then it doesn't count for art in public place yeah it doesn't count as art in public place right it has to be approved it has to be approved right if it's approved by the commission it can come against yeah but it has to go through the process of but that's required all projects right if they're going to yeah so you're required at a certain threshold I think it's 20,000 square feet to um be part of the arle place that's provided either on site or a waiver by paying into the fund or I think it's SP first I think the waiver is to provide it and then otherwise you pay into the fund yeah but my only concern is that it says pedestrian amenities on both private property and or public open spaces including a minimum of four of the following and one of those is public art but if I do four others then I don't have to do public art you would another process right public art public places process you'd have to do that yes this is not trumping that arts in public places is mandatory based on the construction cost and then you have options and how you execute the public have public art in this section but you can still have public art that's not part of there's art in public places that's a whole mandatory you have to correct that's a whole different not in any way conflict money's okay got it thank you sort of sort of minut okay continue please that was okay okay um page 18 top of the page we're talking about pedestrian pass by sales on properties contag contiguous to alleys Andor streets uh include pedestrian amenities as defined herein um I didn't see it and I mean may have missed it but these pases usually go along between one public RightWay and another public either between the buildings or through the buildings yes right and we created we've gone before and and go created the the width that we want Etc in PR that's a discussion that occurs at the board level if we feel it's too narrow if it's too wide that's fine and that's fine it's not directional my my issue is one that I I would just add you know that they align with existing pels on adjacent Properties or or the big picture of the intent is to have circulation through the blocks but that may or may not happen depending on the development it might or it might not but if you have the opportunity to have a property that's going to be developed that you would want to make sure that they're aligned that's the intent that's the intent or there's some or that there's some sort of continuity connection to them like when they did the parking garage in front of the uh the palace they have a walkway through it and they it to get through there so that it it aligned yeah and it's not the RO is great as jiggering but you know at least it does provide covered access to and you only Crossing in the rain Through the Alley and so that that is actually helpful so yeah we can put subsection D in there and say align or be consistent with the existing or proposed poo Network or something and that's what I'm looking for Felix covered the next one as well Felix you're all over my notes okay I think I was good for the rest of it thank you I reserve my time for another comment let's finish go ahead Julio I don't have anything thank you Julio Robert M was very quick we last time we talked about and I think Felix and I were part of the conversation regarding the depth of the hital liner that I saw something now that is 20 feet 20 feet for the Front Street we talk about kind of defining that we also mentioned something to include we're feasible we feasible without a doubt and I I didn't see it there but then we talked about it's optional if it's feasible do they get credit if they select that as one of their I I remember the conversation I don't remember agreed agreed agreed please go back to the it's in the so if we put if feasible they can propose to the board of Architects and say that they are complying with that well the reason is that the discussion had to do with a previous project that came before the board which was a triangular parcel on H Circle which was 12 story which came down to eight story and they complied with the code and then the problem was that they because they had one two three sides on a triangular parcel then they had a difficulty so Robert said okay it's your point may I interject is your point that this is one of the optional elements and if it's not feasible should you get credit for it as an optional element it's not Fe maybe if it's not feasible and that was why why should you get credit under that op as a credit so if that's the concern you could say if determined not to be feasable therefore but but that project that should not be should not get credit for that but that project that we use a example they could only do it on one street on the Front Street that's why I was but that had three fronts three streets yeah but it's really fronting so that I think that's where where feasible is applicable because they had three Frontage I I thought it was triangular s and it had three frontages they could only do it in one because it was only feasible in one then you're going to penalize him and not get the bonus for that right you know I see to me that project was a great example to use in this were feasible because they could only do it in one they could not do it on all three of them they could not do it on all of them but they could do it on most on the Front Street and I guess her point is that there's only one Front Street there's only one front of the building you don't have three fronts to the building you have a front you have frontages no there's a difference between a front of a building a main entrance a Lobby elevator this is where I want my people to come in and then there is by of the site that I bought I have three frontages but again we can't I don't think you can hold somebody to that level where we say hey all three of your must right I I think that's unfair so you have FR to the point you're saying yeah it's to the point that you know it's not clear and then are you going to hold them that that's the only and then the other one is the depth of the of the liner you know yeah so we took that out I think in July and then we talked about it again in I don't know August or something our last meeting and we put it back in because there was concerned that there wasn't an actual number and we talked about what city Min does okay the liner includes to be clear the line liner includes the hallway the quarter to get to it or is that it's just the the actual ler unit because if includes the the the the quarter then you're going to have like a 15t 16 you know we discuss 16 plus 4 right you know 20 but because you don't want to do it some you may not be able to do 20 plus then the quarter right so just to be that that was my that's my only com remember as habital space that you're counted against F I don't see why it would not be part of that 20 ft I think it be included in that 20 ft okay so the is part of the habital space okay I mean you can always provide more okay but again this is for the Front Street okay Mr chair that's my only thank you um we've had a lot of discussion about the process and what should go first and what should go second an example that we recently had was Pon Park residences the Allen Morris project and that was a project that went through the process as the city has it today it came to us and the project was obviously just way too big too massive and it got sent back to them three times if I'm not mistaken it went back to the point where they actually had to redesign the project which we spoke about the cost involved of having to redo the project and then they actually went to commission it was denied a commiss correct correct it went through us three times and then went to commission then they then they as appealed it to the commission and it failed on on appeal correct if I remember correctly and then it went back to the board of Architects brand new building as a brand new building through the process through architect attorney lawyer brand new lawyer right it was a whole new project when it came to us and at that point that project was approved because it was done right that's and and the example that I want to bring is I'm not so sure the entire process is broken um I'm just looking at that project as an example I'm not saying that the process shouldn't be tweaked or there's there's always something we we can all do better whether it's a city whether it's a board whether it's an individual but I think the main step is recognizing and as long as we all recognize that there's a flaw in a process it's our responsibility to improve on that process and that's what I'm hearing from my fellow board members it's not so much to chastise somebody and who to me it's not who did this and why and what it's there were mistakes made there were issues made we need to find out what they are to improve it to improve the quality of life for all of us not just one section of town or another other section of town um the other point that I want to make is the last project one of the last projects also that came before us which is the mark in that project also we all looked at it and we said this thing is huge there's just no way it went through a process I don't think the process was as long but it went through a process but that developer according to my understanding decided to take a different route to look at its approvals and the different route that it decided to take were beyond our control of what we can approve or not approve and it may end up being actually a bigger building and I could be wrong but it may end up being a bigger building than what they were coming before us that that's the danger and the box that we're opening up correct and that's what I want to point out that developer have the ability to Max a site and when they come to the boa they they address the comments and the massing discussions that we have and they they work on it and and they provide responses to what we tell them but that's the the the negative about this discussion is that you might get developers to say you know what here's but again that's going to go nowhere so you're going to spend more money more time but but that's a definite possibility uh um we have that discussion internally all the time that you know we're chastising these people we're telling them to reduce it to drop it to lower it cut it up and they I mean it happens to us a lot on residential work on large Lots M where you know we get these it's the one I'm discussing is on us one US1 US1 Bagel por Bridge um so you know it there's a danger there we deal with that Weekly on our on on our side my point is we have to be careful of those issues care and we have to be as Fami to familiarize ourselves as much as possible so we know what to give and what it's not to give to reach to reach a medium it really is I mean we have I I think the discussions like I said at the very beginning this is our sixth meeting that was posted five which we actually have spoken about because we deferred one and there's been a lot of healthy discussion among everybody um and I think it's good I really do everybody on the board does not always agree with each other but in the end I think we always come to a good decision um as to what has to be done so agree with me three times tonight that's a bonus um that that's all memorable day we're going to write it down and and the other and one one last final point which I want to make is um the city attorney's office there's been a lot of discussion about the city attorney's office um the city attorney's office is a is City staff and a department within the City of Coral Gables if there are discrepancies which the board feels that we have with an interpretation then what I would ask is that possibly we should ask for an interpretation itself of that individual the way they're interpreting the code I don't I'm not an attorney so I don't know what the venue is or what the process is but to me I think the right thing would be for us as a board to ask if an individual within the city attorney's office feels strong about something for me I'd like to know why and I'd like to know an interpretation in the legal sense I understand Felix and and you make a very good point I'm not disagreeing with your points that it's clearly written a certain way but to me I would like to ask an interpretation to know from other legal individuals to give that um for me or for the board to really understand what's going on because I think that's going to be an issue going forward with the board of Architects um and I think that has to be clarified yeah because that that's going to be a problem yeah and I'm not I don't know what the correct answer is but there's got to be some way to get a correct interpretation whether it's from outside Council whether it's maybe looking you the board is a board you can't go to outside Council but if you want to get I I if you want to get a further explanation from the city attorney on this on this issue I believe that Gus was here at the last meeting but it seems like there's still a a feeling of not really sure you understand the scope of the of the that is correct the board of Architects versus the scope of the Planning and Zoning Board and whether and the issue of compatibility and how that's considered I thought there was a discussion I'll certainly report back to the City attorney there was there still is uncertainty over that there was there was a discussion but I just I feel it's unfair for Gus not to be here to defend himself agree when when he feels strong about something and that's what I meant by an interpretation um sometimes if you know one side feels one way so strongly the other side feels a certain way there's got to be something that that clarifies it that's that's all I'm saying I I feel that he should be allotted to defend himself agman yes sir i' would like to correct Mr Colin that this is not a compatible issue it is a process issue where Mr saay was here and the verbo minutes speak for themselves because from the previous meeting if you recall again I was told the City attorney that I had made a mistake in saying that that this that the city attorney's office was influencing by restricting the board of Architects and Judy uh CI the chair of the board of Architects came up and reinforced exactly what I had said then when you were um out and the City attorney was here Christina was here and Mr Sao was here also that's when he explained what he explained which sounded very good and well except when I saw the transcripts it's exactly the way I saw it he defended himself from the previous meeting but I think this is not about defending or accusing this is not a personal thing this is more a direct thing from the city attorney's office not the assistant City attorney well I believe that I've texted the City attorney on on this issue and what she said to me was the board of Architects should not consider zoning requests so yes appropriate to assume they have zoning approval for purposes of focusing on just the design which is somewhat align with what was said before but if the board doesn't like that this is your opportunity to make a change if you you had talked about well maybe we need to have the this a theoretical project that comes before the board and then it goes back to the board of Architects I'm not Prof supporting it or not supporting it I'm telling you this I'm giving the board the option if you wish to address this as part of this process but this had nothing to do with the board of Architects obstructing upzone it was simply an exercise of saying well this is the existing massing that you get off the existing zoning and then you show the massing of the proposed you can't award those bonuses subjective subjective to well you have to assume that it's going to get approved that is where I think the city attorney's office stepped way out of line well I think it the way they're posturing it and I'm I I wasn't there but I think they're trying to separate which is very difficult to separate the zoning piece from the design piece very it's a very difficult but that's what the the code is really instructing they the board of Architects is not supposed to be the board that grants zoning so it's a difficult challenge I'm suggesting to the board if you I said something now that is not right which is the board of architect has never said we're the ones that are going to approve the zoning but the massing is a direct a a direct cause when you're looking at up zoning the massing gets changed from this size to maybe shown on the model three or four or five times look at that which which this board when they when you look at that you find it to be incompatible the massing that as I read the transcript the massing that they're talking about is I understand it is the massing if you got the Mediterranean bonus what does that what is the impact of that massing two or three floors what they're talking about is the massing of the change of zoning right and that's that's a completely different animal and and apparently from what I'm reading there's they want to tease out the zoning from the design they want the board to focus on the design and if the design has a has a problem which I believe uh was from the transcript if the design has a problem that makes it incompatible Felix then you make an adjustment again you're repeating this but what I'm trying to tell you is in the things that the board of Architects does it's not just oh how pretty the color is it's all about massing scale and how it relates to existing neighborhoods it's black and white so the problem that we're having I think is not a question of that the that the board of Architects is is is uh blocking a a a a an up Zone the board of Architects has to be looking at the massing first before they look at the details before they look at the laundry list of things for the bonuses that only give you two floors we're talking about projects that are coming in for an up zoning for example the Alan Morris building which the chairman brought up they did a great job they came in with a building that was too big but because everything told no no no no that was something but they already had gone through bonuses again based on the Aesthetics because they were told that by the city attorney's office that is wrong it was wrong then for that project and it's wrong for every single project and then on top of that the the the the city architect said for 10 years they've been doing like that well that's the reason we got the buildings that we have in this city well that's the problem let then you can make a legislative change address and that's what we're discussing today a legisl change that's what and that and that part of the code is part of the Mediterranean bonus code not just the boxes not just the list and that's and for me I think it's important to understand that if you're in the CBD that building should be treated differently than if you're across the street from single family residential Felix would you like in order to move this forward would you like to make a motion Mr chair you're going to lose me very soon I know unfortunately I had a he's got a personal issue and well no what I'd like to do is keep the board as full as whole as possible on the board I'll make a motion to approve I kind of like these special meetings though you know okay I'll make a motion to improve and I welcome whatever well limited input so we could get this to approve one the way that if the the the the modification has been presented to us I I'm sorry I I would I can't support that I I would make a motion to defer this well we have a motion let's see what happens we have a motion as Robert has stated is there with let modifications if somebody would like to do that is there a second point of clarification what's a limited what are you talk about limited because if we're talking about a legislative item here that's not limited that's not an add-on that is a major component not necessarily no right I mean I don't see that as a major because that would be a process process okay not redo the whole I think that what Jennifer has presented to us I feel like you know for the most part I think we are in agreement that it's it it could be for example the process to go through a you go a conceptual and then you conal come back here would that be considered legislative yes I think so would that be legislative and that's what I'm saying so it's not incidental I mean to me that's major changing a process well if that's something that you'd like to ask people is yes I it is but what I'm saying is not I I do have one concern about addressing it in this title because I don't know if this title would cover that yeah I would suggest probably two separate motions one with the proposed changes and one with the proposed change in the process okay so this would be approving the checklist basically yes yes right would you add uh based based on technical changes that we have put forth at this board in the previous meetings all throughout yeah throughout throughout including I wrote down incling to including today it's on the record so we have a motion we have a second any discussion Mr chairman one thing yes sir just so you know and for the record the great majority of these changes the great majority of these changes were in the work that blue rib committee did three years ago because I checked them almost verbatim with the final draft you did a great job I just want that to be we we we you we we we everybody in the Blue Ribbon committee did a great job and commend that I want to take credit for that too were you there yes so how do we move how do we move the needle on the legislative side to conion that's the second I have a thought if I might suggest to the board because this is really probably beyond the scope of this title because you're talking about coming up with a conceptual plan coming forward I would suggest that you make a motion direct the uh the city commission to consider a change in the process to allow for conceptual projects to come first to the Planning and Zoning Board well I don't know if I not first to us I think the board of artics well first to the board that's a conceptual that's conceptual then the planning zoning Board gets the zoning then it goes back as I understand it to the uh Board of AR Board of Architects for them to decide whether not they're going to give them the uh and then it comes back to the board of AR to Planning and Zoning yeah when it gets finally when it because it has to yes yeah so basically I think you're separating the site plan approval from the land use and Zoning changes but we've always asked for site plans I know we've been very that directive has always been at least with my tenure Roberts we've always wanted a site plan but if it comes here first and the board has not seen it I mean who we are not Board of Architects correct so I I didn't mean to get off the discussion of the main motion but I just I'm in FA I'll support the motion if we can have some discussion about how we kind of come up with a plan on that that's what we're at okay might I suggest we just move or vote on the first motion that we have and then we can ask for another motion with regards to the process yeah that way we just go ahead and CLE it simplify simpy okay Mr attorne yes okay but is there some way to put in there that yeah we're approving the checklist provided that there's a fix on the process I we're going to make a motion now after we vote on this make a motion make a we're doing that tonight like us Med bonus and design that's what you're doing you're doing a twostep process we have a motion we have a second any other discussion no no Joe call the rooll please Felix Paro no Javier Salman yes ship Withers yes Robert Bear yes Julio Gabriel yes zinski yes abat yes now the second part so here's a crazy idea I don't know if it makes sense I see the mouth is better would would it would benefit me you have no idea how much respect I have for archit tax over the last five months uh and what what Mr Paro said really has resonated with me is that they really could be The Gatekeepers um in development of the city if empowered to do so I'm assuming um would it would it benefit any of us probably not the Architects on the board but to have any kind of joint session with the architectural board I like that no I mean I just like to ask them questions and stuff myself I personally would like to see the city architect and the chair and assistant chair of the board of Architects as they were here at the at the previous meting let's just discuss it and and to discuss it they know what's wrong and they know what has to be fixed and the other thing is I would like to have the city attorney's office here also because um it's not written anywhere of the direction that they're giving and to be we don't want to get sued we don't want to this we don't want to do that but there has to be something very clear to the board of Architects so they know what what everybody that sits on that board that makes a decision can and cannot do so we're not going to be making a motion and take a vote on that tonight no well you know what I think it needs a lot lot more discussion okay because if that's the case I I have to leave I had unfortunately a death in the family so but this was important enough to be here thank you okay yeah he was not going to come and you know for the record Robert was not going to come tonight and he felt it important come Robert thank you let the record show that Robert has uh left the meeting please I I mean what what I said earlier and I really the the the city has to be as objective as possible in their policies but we're really creating a great deal of subjectivity in the process we have now because they're making assumptions and plans on something that is not solid it's not out there you know I I believe P that we need to get the City attorney on board with what has to be done for the board of Architects to do what they do and to do it right and it goes from buildings that already have a a a matter of right and protect by Bert Harris mhm and and also people that are applying to up Zone because nobody applies to down Zone and and the other thing is that it has in my opinion it has to be a public meeting because the people that are sitting in in this audience are the people that are ultimately affected by this and and this is just gone on way too long there's been already too much damage through the city well is it's already up Zone we by the time it hits us it's already been upzone if you think about it because they've met the criteria the six to seven8 criteria it's already upzone from from that envelope right and I I I really believe that by doing doing it the way that it's been done um the board of architect is is used basically as as a tool um when it comes to this board Mi Mr chairman I just want to advise the board that any change in the comp plan or any change in zoning has to go to this board correct it does not come to nothing comes to this board already upzoned unless the unless the city commission already upzoned it and it would have had to come before this board first no doubt but there's a presumption but the project we look at already has been right it's a perception it's an incorrect per exactly as as Maria uh Maria ju just said uh when she was up here she said it's already kind of like baked in you know there there's a psychological uh Shadow saying well if they approved it it must be okay we we should do it too and that's I don't agree I don't agree with that because I don't look at I can speak for myself I don't look at a project and say this happened and I should do it again to me and we should all look at each project individually for its own merits and for what it stands for so we call it Case by case well yeah and that's that's the IDE that's the ideal but you know I would question whether practiced I disagree in other words I I disagree that that that a board member comes and says well it's already been done or they give the bonuses already with the board of Architects let me just rubber stamp it I haven't seen that I haven't seen I have heard it here on this I mean you know well I've heard it more than once where it said it was approved for bonus already by the board of Architects so whatever you think or say you still have to approve it but still that carries weight and it's the wrong weight to carry right again that is as my recollection of that particular statement which I have heard heard countless times here it comes out of the mouth of the attorney for the developer and he's saying it on purpose to create a perception now if we want to buy into that that's up to us it's called projection it's all about projection if we want to be the suckers and say yeah okay and and again we're not I I think I agree with the chair um if you look at permits how they're reviewed you know there's multiple departments just like in here there's multiple steps to an approval and just because you get one department or one approval doesn't guarantee that you're going to get for example this happens all the time with residential work and at our staff level oh I got approval from building and structural so I think I can get my permit no you got to get boa approval and boa approval is probably more important than structural building it's part of a process and just because they have those approvals doesn't sway us you know what and that's the ideal but we're human beings we get persuaded and we say well we did it for them last month what's wrong with the we're wrong with doing it this time for this project too we're human beings no no more importantly you got staff approval staff has said they bet all the qualifications they deserving of this yeah but we're also supposed to listen to all the testimony presented before us before we make our determination and there's been so many times that I've sat on this board where the staff has recommended approval where I've seen this board and the individuals and the members on this board say I disagree absolutely you know what can I should be can I recommend uh because we can talk all night that we have a special meeting with um uh you Juan and uh Judy uh cardi and um Peter and Peter and and Peter and the City attorney and I don't think it should be at a regular pnz meeting because I think we probably have a big agenda from what was cancelled last time we have a big upcoming agenda uh and I don't think we want to be here till midnight can we have a special meeting I think this worked terrifically and I think this is important enough for a special meeting with all those parties concerned is going to be very important I think we're putting the cart before the horse because we're not in the position where we can make that recommendation but I would I would make the recommendation and get the commission to approve us to look at that issue with regards to the process you know I disagree you know I I disagree because it's a vague notion that we're presenting them no it's not a vague notion we're looking at making specific notifications to the process for approval of buildings that will receive a Mediterranean bonus or or are pad you know what the if I was a commissioner I would say well show me the examples just like that that uh model gave us a real Clear Vision if I'm a commissioner I want to know exactly what the heck you're talking about and what your suggestions are not a vague notion we're going to meet and we might change the process i' I'd rather have something solid in front of me the only the only reason that it is I think that the only reason that it is in our wheelhouse that's so you can walk and sing at the same time got it so the only reason it's in our wheelhouse is because the first portion is part of the Mediterranean bonus component we were charged to look at re reviewing this entire section of the Mediterranean Ian component which is all of it including that process and I think that if we ignore what the board of Architects is or is not doing and they're the ones that ultimately get blamed they get nothing but blamed they get very little credit Felix all I'm suggesting is that we make a motion to further review the process that is used in the approval of the uh Mediterranean B uh bonuses and that's it we just make that motion I think it delays the process to make a I'm sorry to make a motion so I understand make a motion for us to initially I had said to to to seek approval from the commission to continue to make the changes to the process but you're you're what you're saying is that we already charged that right we already okay because it's part of then the motion would be for us to then continue until such uh for for another special meeting for the review of the process and have that discussion at that time is that what you're saying do we need a motion for that yeah do we need a motion for that yes because we just approved this because you just approved part of it part of it in other words you approve the tech Mr would I think I think the commission it would be helpful since you're passing this that the commission should be aware that you want to look at this I I agree that's what Javier was saying I was saying initially but but Felix has a point it's it's sort of included in here oh no it is included in there it's not sort of it is included in there right so written so theode yeah so the commission when they get this U recommendation of the changes to the met TR design they'll have the minutes and we'll summarize this meeting and we'll summarize the discussion have this board had but if that if when is the commission meeting next November 12 I think so well then I we should make a motion to say uh that we further recommend besides this approval that the process for awarding those bonuses between the board of Architects and this board be explored for further modification of this of this criteria you mean come back to us and come back to us for that purpose is that what you're saying Felix well let's see I mean any legislative change and the code will come back here correct understood but I'm saying we're approving the technical issues that we discussed today which we just voted upon and then add in the recommendation that we continue to review the process by which those those bonuses are approved this is the these are the technical criteria for the approval we're looking at the pro the process approval procedural the procedural approval I we make that further recommendation with the approval of the technical the larger concern is the change of zoning how it's being assumed at the board of Architects level before it comes here I think is the bigger concern right yeah I it's about working it out between the border of AR we can't charge them without getting them involved but I what I want to make sure is that we stop the city attorney's office from saying Board of Architects you must review this as if this zoning which hasn't gone to the planning board which hasn't gone to the commission for final approval in other words it comes to us for recommendations and then it goes to the commission for final approval that I I think that we have to do it in such a way that the City attorney office is not instructing the board of Architects on something that they can or cannot do that's a legal determination what you're saying legal determination is different well I I think as I as I understand it there's a subset of applications that come before the um Board of Architects those are applications that seek in addition comp plan changes and up zoning those are the applications you're concerned about where the board of Architects is looking at it as if those things would be granted and then what does the design look like so what so what you you are correct so right so what you really want what you really want is for those applications to actually come before this board for a preliminary determination as as to whether or not you would in fact grant that comp plan and Grant that zone change so when it goes back to the board of Architects they know exactly whether or not this board which is still a recommending board it's still going to be made a decision of the of the uh of the city commission but the board of Architects will know exactly where the board stands on those issues doesn't that resolve that this would be so what you're looking for is actually a procedural change into the zoning code and what I thought you were going to do is advise the the city commission that there's an issue that the board is concerned about with regard to this procedure and that this board would like to look at it and come up with recommendations to the city commission and how it should be handled I I think you know that's a healthy discussion with the commission but since what came before us is part of this section what is missing is the identification of those type of applications in the two-part boa review approval but the problem is the title I think the title is limiting so what you're going to be given the opportunity if the if the city commission wants you to look at it is say fine let's have an item that addresses that have a have a title that encompasses the potential change and have this board weigh in on it I think that's what you want correct that's exactly what I want so I'm just trying to there's a couple ways to do it one is you could just say let's have a special meeting but then you're not letting the yes and the city commission will look at your minutes which is one way to do it another way to do it is since this board has made recommendations in the past in connection with other it items is to make a recommendation to the city commission that this issue needs to be looked at and we would like to look at it correct I like that I'll make that into a motion so the way we have a motion the way Mr caller described it we have a second by chip yeah yeah I have a question for go ahead are we allowed to speak to our commission appointees on this issue um I don't know is it a quasi is what kind of issue is it see this is legislative so I would say there's not an issue it's not qude judicial it's not a qude Judicial item Mr ker the only thing we can't do is talk among ourselves yes canot I just want to know if I can right my commissioner calls me and says what did you guys talk about at the meeting I just want to know if I'm right but you can go from commissioner commissioner to commissioner but you can speak to the one your commissioner okay so we have a motion we have a second any other discussion it's good call the roll please how here sonon uh before I say yes I want to thank the City attorney representative here for to our board for having made concise a motion that I think we were all headed towards and I appreciate that and I would vote Yes chip withs yes Julio Gabriel yes Su Kinski yes Felix Paro yes abis and St yes um before we adjourn I just want to thank staff for all the hard work that they have really done in putting this together um I know that there's a lot of discussion to be had going forward um with even projects coming before us but you know we welcome that thank you and if I could add to that and thank you Felix Paro for really going through this with a fine tooth comb so we didn't have to thank you I just handed you a gun is there a motion to adjourn and and uh Mr chairman can we have staff send us all um the exhibits that were put up here during their presentation the PowerPoint sure make that the graphic uh yeah thank you uh again is there a motion to adjourn move we have a motion by Felix second second all in favor say I I I thank you everybody you know what I bathro so B