##VIDEO ID:-jJsUrWA6BU## all right historic preservation Commission meeting is being held on the 17th of September 20124 at 7:00 p.m. statement of adequate notice pursuant to the Sunshine Law adequate notice in accordance with the open public meeting Act njsa 10 colon for hyphen 6 was provided on February 1st 2024 of this meeting's date time and place the agenda was mailed to the cranberry press in Trenton Times posted on the township Bolton board and mail to those requesting personal notice uh and volunteer hours Miss Meer sorry sorry um here um and I would say eight hours Miss Ryan here and I say 7.5 Mr guy here five hours Mr H here six hours Mr Marlo here two hours Mr Sabo here two hours thank you m is not in yet and miss conam advis us she was not attending the township committee lison okay but we do have a chair quum a quum we had a this is a record year record month of volunteer hours we had such great cranberry day attendance so we should make sure we check in with Amy because she she was there and she probably got the hours yeah okay so um we'll start with um applications our first application is is um 135 Scot Avenue how are you guys Hi how are you First dress I ridiculous I got Marin I got you the first one front view I everybody got copies last time VI we can sh I got it you got it we can share I got it yes I I got that you need the extra copy here good yeah I'm one as hard of hearing um so um um you wanted more information on the doors and windows correct um you know I I prior to the first meeting I gave you tear sheets on the windows that I would would like to use um the doors I wanted to relocate the existing ones um this has metal siding on it and and and literally the and he's keeping the metal siding in the plant so the only way I can see to do it is is with the replacement windows and then frame them with like a 1 by3 um I don't know what else um what questions you guys have the windows um I think I saw some Speck in here vinyl is that what you're proposing so I'm trying there's 30 windows in this place okay um and right now it's it's it's it's awful there's storm windows screwed on to everything understood um so we've had situations like this in the past with a lot of building with a lot of windows so um since this is a very strong contributing structure to our historic district um sort of a compromise uh We've approved this in the past uh Anderson 400 series white clad wood typically for the front and that so it's 10 windows on the front four on the side the back and the other side since they don't face a street um people have used good grade vinyl window um the other thing we talked about last last last uh last month's meeting was in the um layout that you have or the elevation um we didn't really care for the trim around the windows with the 45 uh angle joinery because you're eliminating the Sill so this the wind the current Windows have a sill on each one so the frame on the outside on the outside underneath the storm windows yes that's the cell um so this is a more modern style and typically if you're going to change and you know to change this uh frame so keep the sill but change the three pieces of the frame don't have a 45 miter have a butt joint I'm listen so straight across the top header would go straight across the width and then the two sides okay yeah see this see the sill the window sill so you're proposing just whacking that all off and put this picture frame the s I don't mind okay I just don't know what we're going to find when we take these the storm windows off well when you take the storm windows off the frame still would stay right as the storm windows fit inside the frame you may be making a little more work than you need to yeah no that's fine if if the Sills are I mean for an older building that's that's fine that's what you typically find that's fine leave the Sills put one bu around and and you spec a window you like uh well the Anderson 400 series is what in the past we have approved for replacement for the again it's a compromise because there's a lot of Windows on the building so Street facing so Scott Avenue side and Maplewood Avenue side the 400 series AR they on the outside wood on the inside um white clad yeah there might be vinyl clad wood wood you see wood on the inside over the yes but also if you look at the spec when you look at the picture of it the sash frame more mimics what you what you have there now the vinyl is typically the vinyl is typically wider I my my supplier doesn't sell Anderson but I'll go to one who does I don't if you like that window that window I I'm just saying what we've used in the past iable but if you guys like that one I'll change the to those one those okay I think the feeling was vinyl windows it just for this building I think it was 100% V was right guy we had this conversation and and I just for the sake of clarity I just sketched over this one window just to show you that if if the existing or a sill was placed it would not be the same thickness as the frame so you have a sill and then maybe a trim board underneath that would be narrower but the verticals could be fine where you have it but the difference is that the the top header is cut so it's placed on top of the verticals instead of mitered in so so so what material do you want is to be well I what's the siding it's it's metal siding and you're the frames are still wood right the frame the siding comes up to the frame but ideally this could be uh wood or or weac inac is yes AAC so you use AAC love to use that's fine so frame them like this inac yeah use the Anderson 400 yeah for the for the Scott Avenue side and thewood Avenue with the GDs yeah with the GDs internal I you have to look at this I believe they are believe they are but that's I think we've improved that yes we have used those in the past and we have approved those and the other ones I can use to prove or on the back and the other side yes yes probably if it's I'd probably rather do them all the same do them all the same if it's not a price issue so because then the inside apartment the inside of all the apartments will look the same that and there was also a discussion I think that brought up about the color of the sashes white versus the black I guess but we don't dictate colors so don't dictate colors what you but the new windows the old well when what pictures you saw this just the sashes were painted black or dark green the new windows when you put those in it's the sashes plus the frames are all the same color so it's a totally different look so white would be a preference I think you want any I don't know that's just I would prefer white because there's white now that's one yeah that was a historic picture we found that had black but right that sounds fine yes we age what else that sounds good you're going to use the existing doors right so just relocate them and then trim those the same way trim the windows with the verticals and yeah they got the light kind I think I think the one side of this was addition I think the one did around at the yeah yeah that would be good yeah that maintain the light yeah but again that should have you know not those little Ang that's fine yeah my artist U she's amazing but I she did do a good job they good drawings but they are good drawings just have them she did a free yeah well no I know she did freehand that's very nice it was freehand but it's it's yeah no these are great but if you just the one that has the light yeah around it and I'll just U yeah if it was centered it would be right behind the post if it was centered it would be right behind yeah see this was the end of the building at one point right so I think that that was probably kind of centered and right it was a whole different but if that's the uh that's what you guys want that's I would uh be curious to know what the rest of the commission thinks about if we're going to be mo improving moving this door if that would should be an opportunity to help it uh aesthetically fit in better in that it'll be the only door without a transom over it the other two both have the transom should would it improve the building if uh in the in the in our survey the uh both the door on the right has a transm as well on the El there there's a transom shown there but I think so if the existing door has a transom you should maintain the trans this one so I'm wondering if if we're going to be rebuilding an entrance for the left door or it'll be the only door without a transom would it be would it be good idea to consider adding a trans on there it might be nice but I don't think it's a big deal since it's existing door it's almost behind a they'd have to get a trans they'd have to get a transom made and they always make that a little different ladies I make I don't like to do anything that doesn't just there's you know Wild West here Brendan does the historic photograph show that door whip up the survey quick uh no let me get there I was trying to do it with street views and that's current oh that's just a Google Street View yeah I can get should have it bookmarked so the photo the door is very different in the photo it's there's I don't know whether this was like a a double door with two lights I know picture you're looking like Saloon it's very different than the siding the siding under the porch that's that's all metal as well right now and the back we don't see vyl so when you move these doors and windows you're going to be able repairing the side mix and match the metal I'll get it I'm not going to do something that's not okay sure I got to juggle everybody yeah he he's what he wants you guys got you got there's what's you know phisically possible and my job is to get all those parts together and get something here that that gets it done okay yeah this is the door it's getting relocated and not much to I made sure to get one of and this yeah but you're going to relocate that door with all the frame around that all the existing trim is going to remain right yeah and then that's that's the door from the other side yeah that's the door on the right over here I believe yeah is this right yeah that's that's that's this one that's this one yeah so all that trim will Mo with the door put in a dou door okay yeah okay no trans right okay okay one you Mar up I have that you drew the the way you wanted everything you should sign it gosh do you have your seal with you as if the if the trim needs to be replaced I mean if the trim can be you know repainted you know sanded scraped or whatever repainted that's preferable than ripping the trim out and putting the flat in I think it's it's got some detail on that I'm worried a little bit about what can I see the photograph one more time just to see what the trim on the Windows look like yeah I think the windows look better with the new trim around them with the existing trim with the new trim when they SED it a lot of stuff got L okay yeah yeah and they're all different oh yeah yeah some of them are thicker than others so if you make them all the same that'll be good just when you take it out just don't use a sledgehammer that's all again don't use a sledgehammer when you take the window save save some of that frame so yeah so we're gonna make a motion to approve the we hav't talked about the side what side the Scott AV and the maple wood side no that's we he agreed to do that with the en Windows not just the window so this um there there are there's a utility box on this side with three electrical meters that's not represented in this and the plans show Mini Splits going in on this side can you help us understand what all that's going to look like from the outside isn't it going to be the same the air conditioning splits yeah the mini splits are going on the Maplewood side Maplewood Avenue so the units will be in the rear okay I got to run the lines to the heads I honestly don't know how I'm going to do things till I get into some of these walls but the units are not going to be on Maplewood it's going to be on the back the actual the actual units are going to be on the rear elevation not okay yeah unit yeah I think it's five so probably two units right and you got to run the Lin yeah I'll do I don't know what I'm going to get in when you open things up here this is not been historically kept up you know mean that move it's been it's got M metal siding on it it's got storm windows on it it's one of those things we're going to I tell you I will do the very best to make this thing look right you know I mean I'm not a hack I wouldn't I wouldn't do a job that that I I I'm not proud um but can I answer that no what I what I can tell you is that each head needs yeah okay so just make note that it's uh 10 windows on the Scott Avenue side front front of the front facade and the Maplewood uh Avenue side there's four windows so those should be the Anderson 400 I count are you sure you count 10 yeah there's three there three doors on the top on the Second Story on the front and there's three days oh I'm counting okay yeah all right good okay so we're going to make a motion to approve the application with the following um revisions the first is going to be um well I'll go with the most recently discussed which is that the air conditioning units are going to be in the back and we're going to try to do minimal um electrical box work on the side on the Maplewood side right yes yes yes okay the second is um replacing all tent windows in the front and all I four windows on the Maplewood side right with the Anderson 400 wood and keeping the window sills when we yes and then the last thing is that when the windows are replaced we're going to retain the original cells of or if they're not good we're going to build new new ones on yes exctly and we're going to Corners yes exactly yeah and ASAC is approved as the trimaterial yeah Bobby and I keep counting 11 windows on the front 11 that's 11 yeah 11 seven eight nine I was counting 11 too did I miss the one in the column one two three four three four five you're right I missed I missed the one on the column I got 10 no there's there's 11 next next to the front door with the side transom there's a window okay all right so front windows facing Windows taking window out door here s that yeah but this is a window here oh I I missed that one so there's there's 11 11 windows on I missed the one behind the coln all right perfect so um I have made that motion uh do we have a second second okay roll call Miss upm yes Miss Ryan yes Mr Guyer yes Mr H yes and Miss Marlo thank you motion passed thank you for coming by good luck with the project here's here's another one you can have back okay what's that okay all right so next we have our friends from 139 North Main how are you welcome back your green house is beautiful yes it looks good we all want one so um uh we're here today you're gonna be uh you have some revised plans would you like to give us an overview sure um I'm Bill Giddings um architect I'm Michelle till so now that they're wrapping up the renovations in the greenhouse they're they've engaged landscape um designer to develop the landscape in the yard uh she's proposed some changes to the driveway uh which um greatly improves the landscape of of the yard and then um so I think the changes from than Landscaping is change from the circular driveway in the back to a rectangular driveway in front of the garage um the second is originally they were saving the wood deck that was there and and now that's changed to a um flu stone patio flush with bra not not visible from the road and then the uh the last uh change is the uh Garden area in front of the um the greenhouse um and rather than having a fence run around the property they want to have a fence just around the Garden area so if you look at the last page uh in the in the handout this kind of imagery of the type of fence they they'd like to do um we we were you know the intentions of the fence is to let the light through uh also Al to see the flowers and and the greenery through the fence you know the Highlight being being the planting rather than the fence um and these images show a white fence you know we were even talking about the idea of a dark green fence so it goes away you know the idea is is really to make it minimalistic keep keep the deer and the animals out let the sun in be able to see through it see the Landscaping um you know from the streets as well as you know from their yard um and that's I think really yeah and again it's um a fruit vegetable and pollinator Garden so it needs like sun all day um and just want to make sure that the the the fence itself is in shading while I'm going to be putting in I like it all right all right thank you we do too so I'm glad you do I can't wait to see the Landscaping it's really a nice plan that she developed very exciting just right now when you look out from the um what we did is we created a a rear entry you know everyone parks in the back and before the entry was directly into the kitchen so we created a through hole Hall inside of the house and and you know a a rear entry so now you see through that through the center Hall Colonial uh but also now the kitchen you know now that the door is is gone from the back of the kitchen the that is the eating area for the kitchen so when you look through the kitchen to the outside you don't you see layers of landscaping behind the house rather than a circular driveway kind of coming in a car parked right there it's you know it's it just really transitions the landscape from the from the house to the yard I would motion to approve second all right H roll call missme yes Miss Ryan yes Mr Guyer yes Mr H yes Miss Marlo yes all right motion pass good luck you're almost done okay thank you all right so uh next we're moving on to new business and we have the item which is HPC relationship with building department zoning officer that's me serious that's me sounds very serious um so a couple things um um I was having a conversation with Mr H at cranberry day and we are talking about the July 23rd uh preservation New Jersey round uh Round Table uh working with your construction and Zoning officials which I also attended and um one of the suggestions that they had there was that um hpcs should um set up a meeting uh meet and greet with their zoning and building officials so that we all understand what each other does what our roles are and what our expectations are um and uh I was reminded of it because Robin had mentioned that we have a new building official and so it seemed like a good time for us to uh try to do that um so but we need permission so uh that I guess is the next step I can set that up so the new construction official is John muselli and you would like to meet with him correct yes do we have a zoning officer as well okay so that's Andre he's here Friday nights and Saturday morning okay so that would be more difficult but and what is the schedule for you said um John I believe he's here 6:45 to um 4 now okay Monday to Thursday we get Fridays off so how are we gonna do this I don't know okay special meeting two in the afternoon yeah I don't know okay but it's a it's a question to ask okay I'll consult with him too yeah all right that was it all right great um the other item of new business is just a question about that does that have to be like an official noticed meeting or can it just be like a trying to have it as a guest question yeah I mean if we're Quorum like a guest to one of our meetings is probably the best then what if it's just two members of HBC we could always do that that's kind of where I'm thinking if it's more of an informal meeting rather than a hearing and then and then report back and maybe prepare kind of with what our concerns might be or what questions we want to ask before be better you could see like if he wants to come and meet us here at night if he probably doesn't then maybe just a couple of us come meet with him and then take it from there no okay so next steps Robin you're going to follow up on his schedule um okay next is our 2025 budget so I presume this is uh coming from people asking what our budget will be next year um does anyone have any questions or comments about the budget for next year um where were the cranberry day costs within the budget last year so that was out of office supplies and materials okay so um I guess the question will be once we sum up how much we spent cranberry day I I have an invoice for you me too that uh we can adjust that as we need to in case I mean I can't imagine well we won't be buying a lot more tape measures next year we got plenty left over oh we did yeah they're right here they're okay so we can use them again we have something new to give yeah we got to get something new then we can like mix them together and or next year or just take a break and then the following year we do it take measures you know that's right yeah I mean so what do you think four five well we spent what 475 this year without your additional expenses that you're going to turn in yeah so at least 500 yeah five okay just put 500 in yeah I know was talk about upping the books books yeah we can always we can we can do books um so we're we've done 50 forever right but did we want to add maybe few more everybody I'm actually Dona I found books in my mother's house that I'm donating the library so I think we can kind of make that an HPC donation thing am I yeah exactly so but looking at the total so our total budget was 3,000 and we spent 1455 is that exactly right so wow how' we do that we're very frugal we're very frugal I think in my opion the training is where we're under spending under spending not are doing but just what's available out there like the the ruter can in the March program all of those are like 10 we courses you know it's there's no like afternoon or day seminar well they were supposed to have the um like the HPC commissioner crash course which was a one day event on a Saturday and they cancelled it because they didn't have enough enrollment so it's kind of a bit of irony going on there that's one but they used to have each year they would have Fair number of hes Saturday Philadelphia various topics interested OPP so do you think there are fewer in-person opportunities around there these teres well so what I'm finding is like during Co there was an explosion of online opportunities right and I think that's really stepping down as well and there are fewer of those is my impression right but the inperson I should the inperson um training opportunities they're just different in that again the multi multisession at night uh versus that's not that's not really what what this is for right right and and who can really commit to that much but they you know the ones that they they have um usually it's a Saturday most of the day and it's either in Camden it's in Philadelphia or somewhere else uh various topics that um and they're reasonably priced for many of us that have the time to take them and I think that's that's where we're because we used to like few before covid we would pretty much spend everything for training I want to go to the conference next year should go to the confence I need to go to that'll up Susan you're going right more than like I always go yeah so I'm gonna go so right there that's what 200 yeah yeah it was expensive this year yeah yeah it was it was $95 I think yeah the one thing that I was thinking would be really great though for us to if we can reallocate something is maybe just like a hundred bucks so we can do like a plaque for doing some sort of a preservation award um because I know we've talked about trying to do that and make that happen and so it would be good to have money just like make a plaque to give to someone okay yeah I agree um okay uh when is this due R October I the end of October end of October okay the advertising item several years ago was significantly more than it is now what did that used to go to so she used to advertise um agendas things that were not necessary for open public meeting act so I came in I said why are they advertising this they said I don't know so that's why it went down a l okay and then another thing we've talked about is printing some things that maybe we could put out there would that come out of this printing line item that is currently zero dollar yeah those done for free like for cranberry day yeah oh like if we were to get our print out our cranberry day forer like nicer yeah if we were to do we have zero right now yeah we could put something in there ask if we ask that would be good because yeah our brochure is pretty awesome there right it was really fun to get that in fact it would be kind of nice $50 or $100 or something 100 yeah 100 um we talked also about and you know what we could do is you guys like seriously like with all the new homeowner letters we could include the brochure with it okay you know that's a good idea yeah and if it's a nicer brochure yeah we had talked about um letters and such that need to go out for the inventory of surrounding Agricultural and plus properties um and had we put money in last year for kind of what whatever notification or mailings that we needed to do I mean everything goes to the clerk for postage even this all these certified mailings I I went through so yeah so we don't need to yeah okay I just have to alert the clerk that I'm doing it in in a bulk that's all and then with regards to like um um Gateway signs and stuff like I saw I don't know if you guys saw one popped up on um on plsb yes it looks awesome and it's in a great spot um so it seems like that traffic committee it's they're making it happen slowly but Charle somebody asked me about it on KY day yeah I know and it's like did you guys have anything to do with that not directly indirectly the the only the only thing I like the don't know what the plan is but there's still a in my mind there's still a gap when you're driving from Plainsboro into cranberry agre you don't know you if you if you're not familiar until you see this new sign historic cranberry what's what am I am I still in Plainsboro I mean but you you entered cranberry prior right because isn't it the bridge is the the yeah yeah but there's no sign like a lot of T like Plainsboro when you cross over going yeah there's right now welcome tobor right at theorder need a cranberry sign at the border and you need a historic cranberry sign yeah the village The Village yeah yeah I know I mean it's a nice sign don't get me wrong but it's just like okay if you're not familiar with the area yeah like I haven't hit cranberry until that sign but that's even less of our topic than I know that's outside our jurisdiction I still feel very strongly that we need something right by that intersection at the Elms because when you're popping in from 130 you don't know you're in Cranbury and it's like you know yeah that that same type of sign is appropriate there it should say 25 miles exactly yeah that's what I suggested yeah I was suggesting that's a great opportunity to enforce 25 I'll follow up with Miss marabell I have speed limit 25 miles per hour Gateway plan I know there I know they they put in requests and stuff to the county and they County poo poos a lot of things so I'll I'll follow up and see if there's any updates okay um awesome yeah we did signage um just a rewind I'm sorry for the budget so are we done with that so is $500 okay for the training I just have to submit it okay um and then the books you're still good with 50 yeah okay all right thank you awesome I I will say that when I presented in June and I talked about our library shelf and the fact that we have you know money in our budget to purchase books like the the other HP Statewide HPC members were like wow really they were amazed so our you know our 50 bucks go far good yeah I talk about the Certificate of Eligibility for the national register so tomorrow I arranged to go to the oh I don't know what office it is MIL County historic such any such anyway the ones in that are in Easttown Village inway wow they said they have a survey a countywide survey from the 1970s um that would include the Monroe uh properties so that reminds me I need to get the addresses so it's from the 70s but you know it's a start so um are still there yeah so and they said I have to like physically go there and like look through the book so I'm G to try to do that tomorrow afternoon I'm good luck with that that sounds great yeah I'll report back very good and um on cranbery day a very friendly enthusiastic volunteer from Monroe Township stopped by our booth twice and um she uh she gave me she's like oh you should speak to so and so and I think it was is it Susan ready Susan what is it I'm Ryan yeah I have it yeah it's it's either Ruddy or Rudy yes yes the volunteer was Kathleen so she said speak to her but I think we've already been down that that route to have her get involved um great so next item we have identifying the indan historic sites um before you guys go into updates um I did happen to notice that um the um the beautiful Victorian on the way to the turnpike um the owner has Rift off the ivy that was growing which was a good thing and and however the front porch is uh looks like it is not structurally stable anymore um and it says it's for for lease um and then coincidentally The Farmhouse that's a little bit further down appears to be out of the I I didn't notice this it does not appear to be occupied anymore and someone had been living there on cranberry South River Road yeah not the one that's a business not the uh it was just uh accountant business yeah I think that might be is that the one that was a business it's not in I don't it looked to be unoccupied yeah because the family the person who owned he moved to they moved to Georgia which is really sad so um so how are we doing with this um our I know we yeah again all these all these structures if they're in starting to show signs of disrepair and this is the other thing with the uh the building building official y we have the ordinance for building maintenance yeah it's just yeah so that that was the purpose of the or ordinance to approach the owners to say okay and especially if it's not occupied how what are you doing to maintain it so it doesn't fall down so maintain broke you know no broken windows grass mode you know stuff not overgrown on the house yes exactly which ex so let's talk about our plan for these um these properties um we have a a spreadsheet right we have the list of all of the houses we've identified everything we I remember last time we were identifying the current owners um and so um what will be our let's talk about our next step um so I should have the current owners because I got another database from middlex County okay with the property and it's updated every month or two months it's more updated than the cranberry one so it has the current owners okay so um it's a I can download it to an Excel spreadsheet so my thought is I can separate out by the year because it has a year built so I can Whittle it down from 1,00 property listings or whatever is in there to what we have and then have you know the existing historic uh Village District the ones we want to add and then these outside the district properties so I'm working on that so um could would it be helpful if we took what you do and mail merge it into like PowerPoints so that we can have like a single we can take a incorporate a photo of each property and make like a master slideshow yes and the photos I'm planning once the Tre leaves drop and I can get something decent and we can help if you would like you know there's like us yeah the merging I'm not I'm not familiar with but and I work with the Excel I can work with but merging it into a power yeah I can take care of that easily um I think that would be nice because then if we have a nice document I think with the pictures that'll be helpful yeah and then but the main thing was finding the database where where the ownership record gets updated regularly some of the other ones they're like they could be six months old um it's not going to work and then the then how do we want to once we have like maybe what we can do is once we have um photos Incorporated in the PowerPoint Deck with everything maybe what we do is um we well we we want to send a note to to all of these owners right that um that was one of the next steps well one one thing we might want to do is as a group review them review it yep and discuss decide there might be some even though uh the bill date Falls within our uh area y that we're looking at but the structure itself we determine it's not really yeah maybe we create like a priority significant to go after our sort of contributing non-contributing def facto list right okay um yeah I'll make I can make a temp yeah if you if you send me what you have for the Excel I can start making it and then I'm going to be around for the next uh four to six weeks right before I start traveling again so w okay so I'm sorry so when so we take pictures like this fall is when you're this fall yeah whenever the leaves start dropping so I get some clear shots I mean I would say 50% I could I could do now but a lot of them yep you just can't see them yep okay um all right I think that sounds like a plan I'm gonna I'll write this down so we remember what our plan is um I have specific additions or at least comments on the list uh so at cranberry day a resident shared that they were uh their understanding is that 73 Old Trenton Road uh dates from 1749 uh it's not on the master plan list onor tax role it says 1749 but those dates on our tax rooll can be very wrong uh so I I went to the gips History Center uh last week and spoke with them to kind of did did a couple things one to learn more about this property and and they have traced the Deeds to 1749 now that just shows the property that doesn't actually show us that the structure itself dates from 1749 um is there a little box though sometimes they have little a little box on those maps to indicate the location of the bar I don't know I wasn't able to conclusively know there are a couple structures on the property they did show me in over like an aerial view where it shows the main structure some barns that are near it it's old um I don't know I I mean I really don't um it's not super visible from the street but if it really if it is potentially that old I don't know how we would figure it out it's hav been surveyed um 73 Old Trenton Road this was the Charles mcnight house Charles MC Knight's mentioned and John CH I'm pretty sure that I added to the inventory I'm working on okay it wasn't on the it had extensive Renovations I don't original yeah the oldest part right but Brandon I know that that one's on okay good great um another one that is on so I I printed out the not not your working list but what's in the master plan and printed that out and ask them off the top of your head are we overlooking anything that isn't on this list that we should be researching and the only in addition to the the Charles M knigh house the only other one that was me mentioned was 222 die road which is on this list now and isn't on the master plan so it's great that it's on this list 222 um that that was they thought that would be significant enough for us to look into and they have a Deeds going back to 1841 for that property no we were gonna add the we were gonna add the fire um the fire station to it to the list too right right because that was in the two firehouses I think I looked at the plaque it was like 1922 and the the shed and the museum the museum yeah the museum is 1922 that sounds right yep but the shed the firehouse right yes on mle wood oh that one okay yeah okay we need to add that okay um because somehow we've never had it which I remember we talked about this no one knows why right under our noses I thought it was mentioned in the property survey for whichever address check it's not there's no property report but it's on the map as if it had been surveyed yeah yeah I thought I thought it fell under whatever the street address is for the adjacent I looked at it it doesn't say I think we can make it its own little one yeah yeah so originally it was just a shed or was it the Old Firehouse it was a firehouse shed there's a a chips plaque yeah okay so we'll add that to the list okay that's that's all I have from um the History Center but also at the last meeting it was asked if there was a Structure at 150 die Road um there is there's a farmhouse it's very near the road and it's surrounded by Farmland the tax roll says 1900 that sounds like an estimate I don't really know but what was the address again B 15 die Road die road so the 222 I'm just look I don't see a picture of the house but the long driveway is that the one susman's old there's a it was a house tour property um now it's it's nice looking the sketch that they have that's the that's what I'm saying that's a temple now I believe that's temp I thinks like only think I'm just looking at the drive and it's long where the temple is now so is the house still standing yes there was somebody that Liv in Cranberry for a number of years and they sold it to a temple okay okay but the house is still standing and the temple bu because the Temple's off I don't know what their plans were for it what's that there wasn't anything there wasn't anything protect that yeah that's why we're doing this I don't remember we need to all have a homework assignment of driving down that driveway and looking at that Temple and see I've never been down there you sound like you want to do it so well I will say I'll say you guys just on speaking of the other Temple the one on cranberry Neck Road I actually drove in there recently for an Eagle Scout project I a kudos to them they have done a beautiful job maintaining that Farmhouse like I don't know if you guys have seen it I was floored I because you can't see it from the street see a little bit from the street yeah it's they they've done a really good job of maintaining that Farmhouse yeah and they own another one across the street and they built a ginormous like um Annex like a few years ago next to it but I i' never seen The Farmhouse like around the street but yeah it's gorgeous so um so I think yeah our homework is to go and check out the die Road driveway yeah they won't mind um okay cool um all right next and super important is um designation of the historic district and removal of buffer zone so as you guys know um we have a a meeting special meeting coming up and hopefully will take the place of the meeting that we would have had later on in the month so um and in this um we will um you know designate everything for real and remove everything for real yeah I was very it's October 1st October I'm curious what the actual agenda is going to be we're having Richard grub attend is that happening in case we question CH cannot attend so she's having someone comeing to sub for her Richard grub will be there okay i' so far I've gotten only one question someone was just asking and I told them they were already in the historic district so I like doesn't impact you so but what what is the agenda we're going to present the proposed properties what I I guess I don't understand the the purpose of the special meeting or what the end result that we want is so there were six properties added so they would we would have to do a public hearing for that reason because you have to notify every um property that's going into the district okay so now it's more for objections any questions any of the public has it's more for the public but is they like an introduction portion where we say these are the properties and I think we should off the address yeah and definitely let them know why there's another public hearing and if there is any new homeowners that would like like to their input as well okay they be individually noticed about this right yes I have noticed all 13 she's done and the removal the buffers in has already happened right no no no that's what part of this is okay so yeah so that'll be I I guess I'm wondering are we expected to explain this like um in a in a logical fashion or is Richard grubs gonna do that HBC will be HPC Richard grub is going to be your backbone if yeah okay and the ones that actually suggested those added six properties so they can explain that if you want to go that far but yeah okay so I'm thinking if we can create an agenda beforehand so we know what's expected of all of us then that good yeah just like this we'll have an agenda just like this and I don't know a script for whoever it is that's that I'm sure think that's me yeah probably work with Robin yeah yeah yeah and I don't know if you need we need any visuals you know board or something that illustrate can we do just put it on the screen that's fine map maybe we can project the that's you and I connect and we can maybe like I think if we show the new map old map and the changes I think that'll be but the end results of that hearing is we hear what people have to say and then do we make a resolution that then goes to TC to and Zoning Board but we don't make a resolution no you would just make a vote yeah just a recommendation I would just make a vote at the hearing you know y all accept what for a recommendation they modif then what happens is the master plan is then going to go to the planning board on October 10th okay and then it goes from there then TC gets that ordinance okay to get passed sounds good y perfect okay I have a question so again speaking with Mr P at Cranbury day um the question I was speaking with with him and with Amy uh the question is as new commission members why was the depot never added to the cranberry station Hamlet local historic district so I explained why it was not um and the question that uh came back was is well now that we have an owner who has expressed his support for you know maintaining the depot could we add the depot property to the Local District separate from this whole state National register thing that we're trying to do so that means a whole other round of all this public notice and change to master plan I know it's like but um it's a good idea because I'm gonna jump ahead a little bit attended the 2024 National preservation law conference last week if you can believe that so it was virtual it was put on by The National Trust for historic preservation with the DC bar and it was very interesting but one of the things they pointed out which you know we've heard before is that local designation is the most protective um so we could be pursuing the state and National register and reaching over to Monroe and adding agricultural properties but if we can add the Depot on the local level to our existing District then we that's our strongest protection for the the depot property so it's it's on the list to be surveyed so let's get the survey and then evaluate it then okay yeah I think that' be great I think that's a great plan I want to talk a little bit more about preparation for the meeting so I uh tried to put myself in the shoes someone who's learning about this for the first time their house is going to be involved in this for the first time in red chapter uh 93 to be like what are the questions I would have as someone new to this and what are the questions I would have that I don't know the answer to so I'm gonna ask those questions and then you guys can either make sure I know the answer or we'll figure them out before the next meeting um so the Chapter 93 as is describes the standards for the the buffer area as one set of Standards distinct from the standards in the district but we've talked about uh using those for the non-contributing properties that's not in the master plan uh or it's not a part of this master plan amendment is what I mean specifically so as a homeowner I'd want to know how does that happen or when does that happen does that happen the same time as this will there be some period of time where one happens before the other do you want me to answer yeah that'd be great so I spoke with Denise about that and so then she spoke with the TC about that I got some questions from the TC I advised them the reasoning why it was recommended by the HPC and then it just stopped from there so I can keep pushing or a member wants to keep pushing it would have to go through the TC so I then because our answers to our questions at this next public meeting will be as is the standards applied to all of these non-contributing properties is what's in Chapter 93 as of today um I think would it's not a great answer to give everyone unless we unless we know unless we know how and when it will happen but aren't the standards I think Bobby you keep referencing it's it's not to make one of those properties that's non-contributing more more Colonial or more oh no it's it's really what's appropriate at the time it was built yeah so it's not to make transform Force an homeowner or recommend to a homeowner to transform it to look like a historic building right right so it's what's appropriate the time the structure was built but we have to enforce what the code says and the codee's going to require us to apply that level of preservation on that bulk of property that aren't contributing and that's so I don't know that we can tell them oh we'll add you to the district then sometime in the future maybe we'll be able to rewrite the code so that it I think we'd want to have a more firm plan mind so um this should all be done by the end of the year and maybe that should be done by the end of the year as well okay so it would be pushing can we tell them would be done the same night like whenever whenever the town committee is voting on to add the properties they'd also be voting about uh changing no standards can we tell them that plan okay all right I I think that's a good answer for them the other question I didn't know the answer to um the the undue hardship that gives us our out for when we're able to ignore uh to provide an exception to the standards is an undue hardship but it's not defined uh if someone asks us what the definition definition of undo hardship is what do we tell them well well yeah I haven't seen any we haven't I haven't seen an undue hardship situation in the like five years I've been doing well this is before a lot of members time here Bobby you remember Township committee had the township attorney meet with us to go over what our roles were and they were very specific they do not want any lawsuits or anything against a home historic homeowner requiring them to do something yeah you know so they were very adamant about that what work it out but we're not we don't want to pursue any legal action yeah yeah right that's a judgmental yeah yeah right we we want to be working with the homeowner to get whatever they want to do yes a little time well uh given that we have to that we're applying these the rules that have been written for us and when we're doing that application we're representing everyone else in town too who has put these rules in place for us to apply and they didn't real they were very specific in terms of what the standards are and when we can grant exceptions um I I would want to be able to give a more specific answer then kind of could could the township attorney Define that for us so that we could have have in the record what our criteria is for undo hardship I think yeah I think it's when you hit an inass um between like for example a homeowner being able to afford to maintain their home within the standards of the design guidelines and um I think we as a board we try to evolve you know with as much as I despise that fake um sighting you know we are we've evolved and allowed for that and that's an example to kind of prevent undo hardship as you will um and so you know I think I think I don't think that there's a strict Rule and I don't think we've had a situation yet where we've had a serious undo hardship where we've had an inass take some of the ref to the for example an yeah if you choose to do that and they have more authority to things done and that's what we talked to with the Buildings Department as well too like the just the general certificate of OCC to the point where it becomes as it is to live there well I think so there actually is a legal definition of undue hardship okay and it is uh an American legal term referring to special or specified circumstances that partially or fully exempt a person or organization from performance of a legal obligation so as to avoid an unreasonable or disproportionate burden or obstacle so every every everybody's going to be different giving us it's giving us latitude to determine whether something is but there's there's a different I think there's a difference between work that needs to be done for maintenance of the structure right versus what a lot of what we see is a renovation yeah and again we're not we're not a Colonial Williamsburg so everything has to be super authentic differ you know that we live in museums we live in homes that have families so how do you and cranberry's evolved over all these years people have adapted and and structures have you know lasted and we have a nice community so it's you know you work changes over time have their own value right often yeah so it's not sometimes keeping it as a snapshot and you have to do this could create we could say Brendon is like if someone says well how do I know what if I'm in an undue hardship I think we could say to them that we haven't had a case of undue hardship um in this Committee in many years that's because nobody's ever brought it up yeah well but that would technically mean that but and but if we are our job is to work with them so that maintaining their house is not an undue hardship and so that's why we we do we do as a board evolve um with our approval like um as you know certain materials become available or less available um and we try to work together to um come up with an appropriate solution have a common Sol we don't want to be the cause right exactly and even and even the Secretary of interior standards has evolved somewhat and has approv right they had simar materials new that new bulletin that came out about replacement materials just like in the last year or so yeah is a whole new because that's what's available in the marketplace for the general you know it's the real stuff well Pine is just not good anymore I mean it's ridiculous to even go that route um going back to your comment about you know that the township does not want you know legal proceedings to have to happen because of you know things that HBC says yeah um we've we worked to compromise right and a solution but I think I may be mixing up with my previous experience but haven't we denied an application right just because there was no compromise that could be reached and then the recourse is that they can appeal to the zoning they could and they haven't has that ever happened no that has never happened not to my knowledge you you've been on it longer I can't recall anybody legally for other yeah at that level okay yeah I remember that we've had something like that once yeah okay did we answer the question not really I will I mean because I agree with everything everyone's saying about what our goal is it's to to be working together and I think most people I mean it's the reason why this Township has such strong preservation is because the people of the Town wanted it and made it happen and so so I totally agree with everything but uh just if if if we wanted to follow the we have to follow the the letter of Chapter 93 which technically means we can only Grant an exception if it is an under do hardship and I wonder if the way we're being more and I'm not saying we shouldn't be as lenient as we are it's just I guess I'm realizing that we are being more lenient than we're technically what's written into the code gives us the power to be yeah it's gonna highlight that and so then that might be a topic of discussion with someone who reads Chapter 93 and has questions about what they're going to be allowed to do our answer is we allow more than what's in the chat CH I think yeah I think the undue hardship definition is purposefully vague you think so that there are many ways of to interpret it and apply it to situation we try to prevent that from H we we don't want that to happen because it is a legal term and the problem with going to the Board of Health for example is they may say well you have to do something and then the solution would be they have to do it but it isn't something that we would approve and then get that conflict I mean as opposed to reaching a a compromise within our group I mean it's almost purposely big I think you're right try to work something out I mean this is a small town yeah be that way people I mean other towns we've heard their HPC uh commission has much more Authority yeah and they put a stop they can put a stop stop yes stop work order on something that's going on we we actually have put a stop work on things in in the past and it depends it's rare but it also depends a lot in who's in charge but who does that that's the building inspector does that off trans committee some more some will cooperate with you and some will say don't even I don't even want to hear about that yeah we have no authority to enforce it right did you have other potential hitf Falls that was all I had ident that I didn't know the answer to yeah I didn't I don't know if anyone else had thought of anything else we should discuss beforehand not yet but a little concerned okay okay um Al righty so next we have um a public Outreach um and I think in terms of the mayor's communication I think um one next step I have is to we finished a couple new Flyers with messages that I need to get out to the mayor mayor's communication for this month um so I'll be working to get that out soon and replacing some of the flyers in the kiosks like um so we have newer ones out there um does anyone have any comments or questions about the mail mayor's Communications and stuff they've been pretty good about you know repeating our messages too which is nice okay I think there was a just a slight mixup in signage that when it was when it was communicated to in her um newsletter was that the way I read it maybe I misunder like uh historic um chips oh did the street signs oh yeah oh maybe maybe they yeah it sort it sort of got reversed yeah yeah the other that's that is one of the communications that I have on our list is to do a difference between chips versus US communication yeah that's that's something iall I think that I read that and I said oh well the work that you did and yeah yeah I I know EXA I remember that it was like it was one line and it was yeah it wasn't the mayor I think it was just a however it was communicated yeah no it's no big deal um but I definitely I know I I remember I did something a comparison like for a voice Scout presentation that I did and so I need to work on putting that into um a a flyer um let's see um primary day yay yay super successful did you guys have fun yeah I it was really great because the kids were really the draw for their parents yeah yeah you know with the wheel spin and all thing they pull all their parents over and then we got into a conversation it was great yeah was was a fantastic enjoyed it yeah yeah it was really and the tape measures were very well received like oh boy yeah I think it was really good that it was really fun I love how we divided up the time at the booth and thanks when the wind started to blow and I know was crazy down that all taken down just in time yeah so fast yeah so I think um I think we started something good yeah um any ideas for next year any suggestions one thing that caught me by surprise was that it was mostly kids answering these questions and at least the questions I suggested were more geared towards adults you had you had adult questions yeah um next maybe rephrase them maybe they should be kids we should we should focus on yeah thinking that it might be kids spinning the wheel and doing things it could we could maybe show like architectural like photos and matching this or house is theore part I don't know something that might be more kidfriendly yeah maybe kidly which house is older which house right that kind of thing yeah a good idea so we'll have to start brainstorming chachis for next year because I definitely think it was nice that we did that um I think it was worth it it's good because the kids can give it to the parents and then the parents have a reminder go back to my source you can get anything anything well what goes with a tape measure in my mind is a p good pencil there you go pens and pencils you can never have too many scale scale six inch scale I love this or a ruler a ruler I love those um very cool um and then interactive map any other any updates I met with the state historic preservation office to discuss exactly how the state's online map that is Lucy differs from our local District boundaries there are seven properties that need to be corrected um they're gonna update them Lucy was last published on July 23rd and the next update to that should reflect everything that we that I discussed with them uh and they're also going to look into their files to see if they can and by files I think it's physical files not on a hard drive um the DVDs that accompanied phases one two that has the Microsoft access database I I want to dig through those in order to see if some of the property reports that are missing might have been surveyed and are actually embedded in the database and maybe we could generate property reports or not um but I don't know if they'll I don't know how long it'll take them to find those phys I think it's they're actually looking for physical media uh I'd also that made me wonder though does the township have the DVDs that came with phases one and two the the copy of phase three at the library has the DVD in it phases one and two at the library didn't have the DVD I'm trying to remember that we we had to submit DVD because we didn't do it electronically the first those two I believe we had to provide the DVDs and we sent those like FedEx to the state yeah but that doesn't mean like did we keep a copy we keep a copy I don't know Township and you know is that like a question the first survey was Richard grub if they provided the DVD right but did they provide one or two I guess is the question I don't know Robin is that something you can look for but regardless this I believe the state should have them yes he's they're gonna look yeah they're gonna look will they give them to you or do you have to go up there and view them like in the office uh I we'll probably be able to coordinate a digital transer in some way yeah okay this was the this was the question when we were doing those surveys and we knew we have to submit to the state to put it in the database the question was I asked at the time once it's in the database can we yeah once we have you know over time properties get renovated and we have some new information can we go in and update it and they said no no so it's like a snapshot and that's it which until the next survey in another 20 years but it's electronic so why can't we go in and add a note section like there was a major renovation you know 2023 and this is what was done so it's it's it just keeps going and building in one spot so we have to keep spending get getting State grant money to update the survey and update these properties like the one um on corner of Main North Main Street Scott Avenue Scott right that prop proper owner approached me after one of our sessions in the library since the Ser original survey the property was in great disrepair right and now he's done all this work how can I get this updated so it's gonna we have to put that on the property list to have it resurveyed and sent back to the state no it's good but it's it's just why can't we do that yeah well it may actually be I mean there is a CER sort of a definition in like the national register CFR blah blah blah of like a his an architectural historian historic architect those kinds of things so it may be required that those kinds of updates are by you know a qualified professional as opposed to lay people and and I've seen something to the effect of this we are supposed to periodically resurvey the things anyway that it's not just once we've surveyed it we never have to survey it again that it we should be regularly is it like 10 years guelin at all I remember Lindsay saying something or something that Lindsay had provided said something about like survey resurveying every 10 years I'm like wow it's like we just survived the first one and then it's time to start the process again okay um can we talk about the student ex officio yes volunteer for commission so um during cranberry day because our table was cited next to chips um M goano pulled me aside and introduced me to a a rising senior uh who is super interested in historic preservation and apparently interned with preservation New Jersey I think this summer oh wow and you know thoughts were going through my head about perhaps she might be interested in this um student ex official position for the commission um and maybe she has friends so I did ask for her contact information apparently she's involved with chips a lot so I know who she is you know who she is so um I'm not sure how we want to handle reaching out to her but well I think before we we do that we have to we got to frame out what the job is um yeah so I did reach out to the people in iggo yes and I did finally get a response okay um and then at first they responded by saying that they're not taking student Representatives um for historic preservation they were doing it for Cultural Arts commission planning and zoning and economic development but not historic and then she wrote back and she said I was mistaken we are including um historic preservation um and then she gave me a link to where they take applications so there's a whole thing and and a description oh perfect of the positions perfect and so I mean I can yeah if you can forward that to me I can just forward this let look at that in the packet and we can maybe ago and adapt it for us yeah and it's I mean it's pretty straightforward in terms of the description um and kind of what the minimum requirements are for attendance and all that so I'll just forward this to you but do we have to go through yeah did she say to get this approved and all that did she did she say did she say anything about their process for approving like how long it took for them no app she didn't give me any information about that is that a change that TC needs to get there is on the on the township or their their Village website they advertise this and um you know ask for people to sign up so it's attendance is it just attendance at the commission meetings or is it something additional separ it wouldn't be responsibilities are uh specifically attend a minimum of 75% of all commission meetings act as a student advisor to the commission and act actively participate but not vote or account for a quorum so that's that's all that the responsibility so it's really for them to get experience they can must be a resident of the village must be a full-time student at the in the school district and juniors and seniors are preferred good verbal and communication skills must be in good academic standing and be able to meet the state school guidelines for extracurricular participation so okay it's pretty straightforward yeah let's just let's take their we can I say what we do is we take theirs we adopt it right make it cranberry and then maybe we send it on to Lisa and have and Miss Marabella um to have them weigh in um and then if they want it to go to TC as like a a something they approve or if they want us to present it I mean it seems pretty straightforward to your point right and the application includes a description in this case of all three commissions But it includes a description of the historic preservation commission what they do position description Etc so this is pretty complete if I'll just s it to you can qualify are students like flocking to the applications and they're just inundated with interested parties you didn't say but sounds like sounds like it's been going on for a while so they probably have decent amount of Interest that's great okay I think it'd be great for us to and it's something we could begin in maybe in January you know you know with the new year I mean may take us a while to find someone but I think I think only good things can come out of it I mean when we had sharro he was you know he provided different perspective you know and uh you know for it led you know so I think uh yeah I think it's excent so okay um this off to Revolution New Jersey any updates nothing nothing new I me I know that they know they have a limit of 100 tickets I think they've sold somewhere between 60 and 70 so for for the tidbits we're going I hope you guys are all going I'm out of town so requested an additional it's be fun a redo so I can be around I heard it's going to be really fun I heard there's going to be like a lot of cool stuff that and it's not just tidbits like they have some reenactors they have yeah food that they think is sort of reminiscent of what people might be eating those days and drinks and they have some um you call it you know cardboard cutouts where you can put your head in the picture and and be George Washington yeah for the for the evening it's fun cool uh now we talked um about training earlier does any I have I have one more thing I wanted to add about the law conference oh so there was a a cautionary tale about pipy New York found there and there was a particular property that was in contention um uh it was a a mansion I believe they wanted um the develop developers wanted to come and I believe leave the Mansion but then like build a whole bunch of housing around it which happens a lot yeah um Township was G to hope for it and HPC said no not no no but we want it a certain way want it to be more respectful and so the township vacated the entire HPC and added um friendly unqualified members to their HPC who would approve the development as the township wanted it whoow yeah and somehow that all happened and was legalish you know but you we think about our CLG requirements of like at least some kind of you know qualifications and things like that but yeah so I just wanted to share that because that was that was interesting so um yeah and besides designating resources locally I think that was like the biggest lesson wow related to us so don't mess with pipy okay well thank you for that um next we have our minutes from August 20th I do not have the minutes I will have them for the October 1 we'll have both okay we'll work on that next time um discussion about anything else how will we communicate to prepare for the public um meeting um so I was going to work with Robin to prepare like a script and it be agend an agenda just like this but we'll probably list out you know all the the new properties we'll have the maps um and then to your point like we'll make sure we have a nice like a an overview description about why we are here and why we are doing this um and then if things get more technical I think also the Richard grub team will be here to answer they have a really technical question and you'll just broadcast that to us so we can um like in advance you ADV yeah definitely Robin always shares the agenda beforehand so we can try to put it in can we put it in this agenda document yeah of course yeah one one theme that we talked about couple years getting additional properties distri toate District yeah and remove that buffer zone that's yeah we want a continuous boundary showing a bigger picture giving a bigger picture of why this is happening yeah I mean if you for example and you think about our street signs for example you know our street signs you know if you if you're if you have a street sign that says historic district on it then it would be really weird if it's just house number five number 13 also the area we're talking about lot of yeah yeah and then the buffer the re the rationale for removing the buffer because you know we have houses that are where it's literally just like their backyard or their front yard is the buffer that's really confusing we have houses that are not at all historic that are all of a sudden falling within the buffer so it just adds too much confusion and unnecessary applications is what we found just okay all righty um public comment no public comment so next we make the motion to adjourn so move second all in favor say I