##VIDEO ID:gWenKSYWEPY## [Music] y all right this historic preservation Commission meeting is being held on October 1st 2024 at 7 o'clock pm statement of adequate notice pursuant to the Sunshine Law adequate notice in accordance with the open public meeting Act njsa 10 colon for hyen 6 was provided on January 1st 2024 of this meeting's date time and place the agenda was mailed to the cranber press in Trenton Times posted on the township Bolton board and mail to those requesting personal notice and fed with the municipal clerk a roll call and volunteer hours Miss sum here uh four Miss Ryan here five Mr Guyer here two Mr H here one miss Marlo is not here yet Mr Sabo here 2 a and miss bini here three and that includes the cranberry day okay thank you Canam our Township committee Lon is here we have a chair quum we have a COR chair all right great um so welcome everyone um my name is Jennifer satmar I'm the chair of the HPC this for this year um joined by the rest of the HPC we're happy to have some new folks in the audience we've never seen before um so we um tonight we're having a public hearing about the amendments to the cranberry historic village District in buffer zone um just to be clear that the uh cranberry station Hamlet is not part part of the discussion this evening um and uh to ground everyone in these amendments um we've prepared some slides to run through um so everyone can understand the history and intent of the project um the this project has been um a collective effort by HPC so I'll be presenting this but I I've asked members of my um you know follow former col for my colleagues to chime in um um if I've missed anything or to provide any additional um you know dialogue or um flavor to the discussion so with that I will start off slideshow and hopefully everything works all right good okay so welcome um so for those of you who are not familiar with HPC um we are a group of seven members here um in Cranberry we are all volunte um we work to maintain the agriculture Agricultural and historic inventory of buildings to preserve our history and charm um we meet monthly as a group uh we typically um review applications and we have a number of initiatives involved in education and Outreach um and preservation as well special projects um so tonight our public hearing hearing includes two interconnected components um they really do work together um the first is the designation of the properties to the cranberry historic district and the second is the removal of the 200 foot buffer zone um around the cranberry historic district uh so the this public hearing is actually the second public hearing we've had on this topic um we are in actually the final phases of what has been a multi-year process um it began back in 2019 when uh Township committee had the re-examination of the master plan uh within that reexamination um it was uh recommended to designate uh the cranberry station Hamlet as a historic district and also to re-evaluate uh the um the U the maps of the downtown historic district um we spent the year of 2020 uh compiling homeowner feedback we get a lot of feedback from homeowners during the application process uh we spoke with um Consultants um and we formulated a plan in 2021 we had started to identify uh a structures to add to the historic district and we started to build out these Maps we sent a notification to all impacted homeowners um back in 2021 and had a public hearing um during the public hearing there was no objection uh to what we were proposing in 20122 we applied for a CLG Grant this was a lengthy application prepared by two members of HBC we received the money and um hired Richard grub who is here with us this evening uh to conduct research on all of the properties that we were uh uh reviewing to um include in the historic district we conducted the research and we had a public um presentation of the research in January this year at the cranbery public library we had a group of folks um attend we posted the presentation online and we presented um the overview of This research in the mayor's emails tonight we have our public hearing and following this public hearing um the next steps will be submitting to the planning board and Township committee then back to planning board and then back to Township committee for the final steps so a question might be what is changing and why so I'm going to actually start here with our current map um this is the current map of our historic district it has been this way for for many years and one thing that has been um pointed out to us um by homeowners as well as historic preservation experts is that there are a few issues with how our maps are laid out the first issue is what we like to call the missing teeth right now as you can see we have gaps on streets where we have some houses that are in um the in or most houses in a district and then others that are out so you will be driving down a street and there'll be some houses in the district and some houses out of the district um you'll also see that um there are some houses that are just sort of on their own um this has been quite a confusing process for people who are visiting cranberry we we noticed this particularly when we got new street signs it's difficult to tell where you enter the district and where you leave the district um as well as on North Main Street you're entering the district then leaving the district then entering it again this is causes problems with preservation it allows for things to happen um to structures that are adjacent to Historic structures that could impact the inte of other historic structures that are right next to them the other problems that were identified To Us by homeowners particularly were issues with the 200 foot buffer as you can see this 200 foot buffers um goes and attracts many properties that are not historic in any way therefore we've had a number of people who have properties that are not historic in any way and they're not part of the historic district they're part of the buffer and we've been um having to review applications and really not make many comments because it doesn't it didn't really matter what was happening within their area so the buffer was a problem and um it was also extremely confusing because we had buffers going through people's yards Etc so it wasn't very clear um again where the district was and where it ended um so as a result HPC took this feedback um and we look we share this um maps with all of the um potential all the impacted homeowners um as part of this ordinance and um we're looking to remove the buffer and we're looking to um include um homes in the historic district to make it a continuous um path so that people really can see that they're in the historic district again where it begins and where it ends we also are seeking to prep U Preserve are included in the historic district some of the agricultural property that's very important and was highlighted in the master plan okay so a lot of people might be asking why I presume it's probably why a lot of folks are here this evening this is more than we've typically had in in a normal evening um so the the main reasons why we're looking to designate the properties as I mentioned before is that we got a lot of recommendations from our Municipal planner we also got recommendations from historic preservation experts to do this um we again look to fill the missing teeth and create a continuous District boundary um the reason for removing the 200 foot buffer zone was again um public um homeowner feedback as well as recommendations from our Municipal planner um so we notified um homeowners about these potential changes back in 2020 21 we did identify six more properties um and we notified them as well this month um that are further further north and so how will this impact homeowners that's probably the biggest question for anyone who might be part of this so just kidding this is the joke part right so we're not gonna people who are now part of the historic district we will not be recommending telling them what color to paint house that's probably the biggest myth about HPC is that we say to people you know you can't like little old woman in the shoe you can't change your Sho shoelaces you have to paint your house this color that is not really what we do um and actually how it impacts homeowners is it's going to depend on um what type of home you have and how historic your home actually is so there's two types of homes in this historic district and this has been the case since the since we became a historic district we have properties that are called um contributing and properties that are called non-contributing so an example of a contributing home is this beautiful home um I think it's on Bunker Hill um in its um res survey you can see that there's quite a history on the house it's definitely historic and it was identified as a contributing structure um we um for this type of of home the goal is to preserve it right because it's a historic structure their non-contributing homes um this is an example um over here on the right that's on North Maine it's been part of the historic district for some time now but it's considered a non-contributing structure because as you can see this home was not from the 1800s um and we would never as a historic um commission expect someone to try to preserve a house and keep it looking like it's from the 1960s um we believe that it's um that homes that are not historic need to grow and evolve and that people uh may need to do things to um to continue to live in the home and so what we take is more of a thematic or holistic view when we look at things and it's all about the district and the streetcape and less about the individual structure um so that's really what it comes down to so for the contributing properties as I mentioned um this is where we do have um we look at anything that's on the E exterior of the home in in all circumstances we never touch anything inside people's houses we never see what's inside um so that might be a myth that um the hpc's you know tell you what paint color inside your kitchen that's not true um we only look at things on the outside so for contributing property that's historic we seek to preserve it um we look at things from the streetcape and from primarily the front of the home sometimes the side if you can see the side from the street um we review these and we um look at the appropriateness of the era of that house for a non-contributing property it's a it's more complicated and and quite frankly um more Progressive I would say because um we really just uh we don't try to make the house look historic we're not going to say that a house in the 1960s needs to look older than it is um and we're also not going to say you have to keep it as a 1960s home um what again we're going to look at are certain elements on the outside of the house that impact the streetcape because your neighbors are the ones that have historic homes that we're seeking to preserve so um what we do is we typically follow um the criteria that it's used around the buffer zone um I mentioned the buffer zone which is where it was um a home that wasn't um um historic and we um are I guess um a little less stringent in terms of um of what we're looking at I'll let my colleagues charm in as well because I know it's it's kind of complicated um do you guys have any other comments i' say that specifically we're a lot less stringent on the buffer area than in the district um the level of review in the district um is about preserving the aspects of the building that make it historic whereas the level review in the buffer area is making sure that changes to the outside of the property aren't going to have a significant impact on the historic district so it's let it's not about preserving the specific architectural elements of a buffer property and the non-conforming yeah and so the buer becomes let me um follow that up that's that's how um Chapter 93 is in the Cranberry code which uh has been in place for a while and tells us as a commission how we are to review the properties the applications and alongside with this these designations and removing the buffer our recommendation to the township committee is also to make a change to Chapter 93 to specifically say that non-contributing buildings in even inside the historic district the appropriate level of review for them is the level of review that we currently apply to the buffer that is it's not about preserving specific things on the building it's just about how that building affects the overall District yeah thank you thank you for articulating it better than me okay great any other comments I'm on my last slide um okay all right so next last a question oh um are weed to do questions now or at the endend in terms of the quum I'm sorry uh yeah we have to wait till the public comment she yeah I'm on the last slide I promise okay so before I'm while I'm on the last slide does anyone on the commission have anything else to say okay all cool okay so I'm gonna just close with the final things about why how this will impact a homeowner first and foremost the properties um that are in the buffer that are going to be removed that's too bad for them because they will no longer be part of the historic district um but the great thing is that the properties that are going to be now part of the historic district will be part of the historic district and have an opportunity to be part of preserving our historic character everything that makes cranberry so nice um as you can see um on this uh slide and I listed the reference before there's been a lot of research about the benefits of being in a historic district even if your home is non-contributing um and last but not least you know you you get to have a really great street sign on your street that everyone in Town's now asking if they can get these new street signs and and unfortunately they're stuck with the green ugly ones um so people in the historic district get to have a you know a sign on their street that says you're entering into historic district um so that you know again everybody knows where we are and and what we represent what makes cranberry so special so with that we'd love comments um I know you had a question or comment so did you want to start yeah I just want to ask a question something you said earlier sure you have to say your name address and I'm sorry all this protocol stuff just like state your name and and address yeah Chris rusic 18 Prospect Street RZ I so you said earlier that one of the reasons for doing away with the um buffer zone is because doing reviews of properties in the buffer zone is like is burdensome on the commission right if it's like half of a property yeah oh half of their property is in the buffer I think it was burdensome on the property owner as opposed to the commission oh okay yeah so wouldn't it be the same situation then by introducing new non-contributing homes to the historic district aren't we then doing the same thing and introducing the same problem that you just encountered with the buffer zone well I mean I think we see it as a benefit because the non-contributing homes are now part of the the historic district and so it allows us to look at the right homes that have an impact on the district versus buffer homes that were outside um we're going to look at it in a similar criteria as we mentioned before with the buffer um the other thing is that for a lot of these changes that people do make anyway their applications are going to zoning and um planning and and all these other boards anyway so it's really for us as volunteers it's it's applications that we review we're volunteers and that's our job to do so so I mean I think we welcome it if it's going to help our historic district look more cohesive okay all right so I still I'm still not sure I understand okay um so another question you say we will look at you know proposed changes to a home a non-contributing home right but you don't necessarily mean we the group in this room here you mean the Commission in the future correct because the commission yeah whoever's on the commission at the time and whoever is on the commission at the time may feel differently than the members of the commission currently in terms of what the goals should be and what aims they should have in terms of shaping those properties correct totally agree um that's why we want the code changed as well um the standard of review should be specifically in Chapter 93 that a non-contributing property the level review is the level review that currently is applied to the buffer area so today a home that's in a buffer area that will be added into the district proper as a non-contributing property our recommendation to the township committee is that the level review does doesn't change at all and what is that level of review that you're proposing the so it's in Chapter 93 Section 5 subsection D it's a couple sentences but in short the first test is will the proposed change have a significant visual impact and if the it's not going to be a significant impact it's just approved uh and if it will have a significant visual impact then the HPC standard of review is to ensure that it is compatible with the overall District um doesn't again it's not about the preservation it's just about using materials and proportions and the height of the building and things like that that is compatible with the district so that's already specified uh in Chapter 93 so is significant visual impact defined in Chapter 93 or is that up to the interpretation of the there's a couple factors to look at I can read those I have a question sure name Francine R so the part D significant visual impact shall be determined by the design appearance and scale of the new construction or alteration and its relationship to the adjacent as it's written today to the adjacent adjacent historic CL marker site so in this case it would be to the historic district so just the word appearance okay so really it's whatever the commission decide the the the commission at the time whatever they feel is is significant right whoever's on the commission will have to make that judgment call so so by adding a non-contributing home you're basically saying to the Future commissions whatever their opinion is about significant that'll control the way the home is restricted going forward I don't I don't think I mean been in this committee for five years I don't feel like we really look at things like we're trying to control anything I think we look at this committee as we're helping we're working with homeowners to help ensure that our his historic district um helps preserve the historic structures within it so it's not like we like we don't look at like plans and say like oh I don't like that and then Dave says oh but I like that and and then it's up to whoever's you know here to decide it's we we try to stick to like facts we try to stick to the code um so but we don't have like strict things that we say like for example you know there must be no um additions more than 20 feet long or anything like that we're not we're not like the um the zoning board where they have those you know very strict rules like setbacks and stuff like that but we do have design guidelines that help us in a more General sense um about uh what features are important and which ones are not so important things like that so I guess that kind of leads to my question my question was what if we have decided that we want to take the home completely down and rebuild a new home is there anything within those guidelines that say we have to keep part of the current structure versus being able to take our home down and rebuild a new one if it was if it was a non-contributing building and it wouldn't have a significant detrimental impact to the district there's no requirement to preserve anything as long as it the time we we had a concept review for the new cranberry Pizza building the other month where they're taking down the old structure and it's actually historic the old structure and building something terms in terms of what the chapter says and what the commission does and and and and I'm not talking about you miss suire because maybe in 15 years you know I hope this commission is the same in 15 years and I hope you know you guys are all here but presumably it's going to be a new commission right and presumably it's going to be a new commission and the only thing controlling whether that commission decides is the language that's in the Chapter 93 which currently says significant visual impact which as defined as just some change in appearance right the way the commission defines visual impact so for example Francine just said change the you know tear down and build a new house if some plans were submitted to the commission and they didn't like them they could just say this is a significant visual impact and we say no right we're we're an advisory commission so actually we we don't actually have the final word uh it's the zoning board who would hear if if if the zoning board disagrees with our assessment they're they're able to decide that okay so Susan you started to say that there are certain guidelines that we have designed guidelines and they are actually on the uh Township website even for the non-contributing homes there's there's guidelin I don't know that they're specifically called that I thought there is some streetscape Lang anguage in guidelines which should be applicable to non-contributing resources expenses don't know yeah what if somebody wanted to do a super modern looking home completely modern and totally artistic versus yeah standard I I I don't think we would have any jurisdiction over that other than what the zoning board would allow yeah so if it met the height and setback requirements the the street impervious cover and all the other things that go into zoning then I wouldn't I think we would recommend though probably not to do that might be a lot of public opinion against something like that but based on that so if you're saying there's really nothing you can do based on that what's the purpose of adding a non-contributing home to the historic commission's boundaries so if there's nothing you can do what's the point well if if it was not part of the historic district homeowner could do whatever they would do to the streetscape we would never know what they were planning to do or doing and if homeowner we' have no opportunity to express you know what would help maintain the view of the historic district then the homeowner would in some ways just do things without not even knowing and so that's why it's part of the commission so the purpose is just to give friendly advice to the homeowner most of the time most of the time that's exactly what so if that's the case wouldn't the homeowner have to apply for a permit to make changes to the property yeah that's what that's what I said this already doing so why wouldn't the commission then just find out from you know the permit office if a permit's been applied for and then reach out to the homeowner and give advice as a commission on what the commission thinks would be the best streetcape or you know whatever the advice is that the commission has why add the home the non-contributing home to the historic commission and put the burden on the homeowner to come to the commission but if the building department every time they got an application then referred that application to us for review I think it's probably going to slow the process down I mean it if you attended if you attended our meetings on a regular basis you'd know that when people come in and out very quickly I mean we don't ask except in a very few cases where it's in the historic district itself and it's a con a a conforming uh building that they come back again and again for reviews it's it's like they come they show us what they and we that looks great you know if it was up to us maybe we return that return that molding a few feet on the side of the house and that would be the end of that it may be it may be fast but what I'm saying is what I'm proposing you don't put a burden on the homeowner right the resident of the of the township and the homeowner you put the burden on the township to inform the commission about proposed changes this way the resident isn't burdened and the town who's responsible for this would just say hey by the way 18 Prospect Street whatever I don't know what the streetscape a driveway they they they submitted a permit to redo the driveway you want take a look at do you have any advice for them send them a letter give them a call the only thing I would counter to that is I think is that there are probably some changes that people could make to their homes even if there were non-conforming but um that would not need a build building permit for instance I want to change the shutters on my house okay so you don't need a building permit to change shutters on your house but it would under the current regulations you need to come to us to sell us you're going to change shutters on your house so right now we have a case we're going to hear tonight okay reinstalling I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up that's a good point so so what this really means is if my non-contributing home is brought into the into this commission's District if I wanted to change the shutters on the home I have to come here and ask for permission first um I think there's a step that is being missed so um our typical process is that the homeowner the property owner does fill out an application for the for their project it it is vetted through Rin and she decides whether ultimately um the project has to come before us or whether it can be decided at an administrative level and we have a very long list of administrative level settled um you know uh applications and I would say that is the vast majority of applications that come through every year okay so I stand correct if I wanted to change the shutters I have to draft an application right submit it to Robin wait to hear back from her she'll decide whether or not it goes in front of the commission then I could possibly change the shutters or I have to come here and explain why I want to change the shutters wait to receive feedback from the commission if the commission thinks it's visually significant or something they may say we want to wait and advise the zoning board on how you deal with the shutters right and then we' go to the zoning board so ultimately the shutters could end up being a long process Zing no zoning board would not have any jurisdiction and we don't again as brenon said we don't have any we can't force you to do anything yeah we we are here at as an Advisory Board and so you know you might come and just KN fill out the application and there's not going to be like a note at the door that says you didn't check with us I'm just trying to understand well I guess if you just want to just think about your own property and not the historic district and the historic structures that are down the street you just want to think about your own property and your own world then I guess like so you bring up point and that's that's I mean you bring up a good point you bring up a point because I'm trying to understand why so tell can you explain to me because I didn't understand it in the presentation how bringing in a non-contributing property does something beneficial to let's say my neighbor or other properties on the street jener can I just please okay um take a few steps back so uh the point of of this um initiative to add properties into the existing Village historic district um is uh when the district was first created a number of homes on North Main Street and other areas um were not of the 50-year or just barely 50-year uh definition of what's constitutes a historic home so for whatever reason they were left off and left out of the historic district now we're and that was in 1989 so a lot of number of these homes we when we did the survey uh are over 100 years old now or approaching 100 years um and most people would think they're in the historic district so that was the main goal the second the second piece of it is if you have a non-contributing home between two historic homes we're trying to make the historic district contiguous to make it easier to administer because with this buffer zone we had a lot more properties uh affected and they're mainly rear of the historic properties so in Ean um Winwood and the and the uh the is that the Estates yeah North Main yeah off of U actually did aor Plainsboro Road there was a lot of people who had properties abing the rear of a historic property they were part of the buffer zone and they would have to put an application in for review so there was a lot of properties affected so we're adding a there are going to be a few non-contributing homes added to the um existing Village historic district and there's currently there's non contributing homes within the existing historic district so that's not it's not nothing it's nothing new that we're doing and um again as Brendan was explaining that um it's filling out an application and and again the other goal was to maintain the historic streetcape so something really out of character doesn't pop up um or affect the historic property because everybody likes the Main Street and is streetcape like defined like is it Landscaping it's the it's the it's the overall rhythm of of of the um the homes that are on the streets there is a definition of streetcape in Chapter 93 in the code this is all it's on the website um there's like a code book link on the website so in Chapter 93 that's where you want to find all these definitions um streetscape is defined as the visual character of the street including but not limited to the architecture building setbacks and height fences storefronts signs lighting parking areas materials color sidewalks Curbing and landscaping that's that's streetscaping even Landscaping Landscaping we never really not the I think we've had an but technically it's there so five years if it's a new Commission Ser at Landscaping they could enforce the applications it's no different than what we could now do relative to making commentary on any home in the buffer and so I did a quick count here and this is not absolute but you asked earlier how come you're switching from one to the other and isn't that going to create more work for us it's actually saving uh work and saving the number of homeowners that would have to submit because my quick count was that there were s there's 70 or so homes that are in the buffer but are not part of the historic district currently and if we just change to the proposed historic district we would have about 40 homes so there are 30 homes fewer that would be up would have you know have to submit to us as a result reducing the number of homes would be less work for the commission yeah that's so if you did not include for example my non-conforming home that would be even less work for the commission so it's still true that including these non-conforming homes is great but I can I just IM you would submit would be that much work for us to review but it's still it's work right it's like what's I still don't understand the point but but M Su earlier you said that we have a narrow Focus we're just thinking about our world well and that we're not thinking about our neighbors in the street and I still want to find out what do you mean by that like how would adding our non-contributing home to to the commission how would that benefit our neighbors in the street um I think that being able to have a voice for historic preservation should a home like yours should you look to do something that impacts the streetcape having an opportunity for the historic commission to voice their um you know the the guidelines and and their recommendations around you know what is being you know changed on the exterior is something that's going to benefit a neighbor that has a an actual historic home because if we don't have a voice then you could do something and in just in without not knowing you know that there is this historical component of your of your neighborhood of your community um you could make a change that could um damage the overall view of that historic area and that's why we you know seek to include these non-contributing homes to a historic district I I don't have any empirical data on this maybe you guys do but I think most historic districts homes in historic districts are uh maintain and rate and their values increase significant that it's a benefic a benefit to the entire town and the historic district to to be within a historic district I think people like to live in historic districts and they'll pay more money for their homes as I was thinking about this I was concerned about the resale value of the house going down actually because some people don't want to deal with being because if you went to list the house and said you were in the historic Zone but then you try to explain in the listing but I'm this house is a non-contributing star hard to and then you have to try to explain to the new homeowner well yes you do have to fill out an application possibly pay a fee to even put like an aelia bush in I think it makes it kind of challenging for the next you know people in just my opinion and I don't know if you realize this but and one of the reasons why we're here is because many of our neighbors right this is outside of our little world right many of our neighbors who have historic properties have complained to us over the years on how they've been treated by the commission when they've tried to make updates and improvements to their homes and they've expressed regret that their homes are governed by this process so that's really why we're here right is because we thought we assumed it was a good thing but we've heard I've heard myself personally at least three and these are from the street that like you know these are my neighbors right yeah that you said we weren't you know we weren't thinking of we actually had them in mind when we came here because we heard their stories so strange I've only been on the commission for four years but we've never had anybody go out of here feeling yeah and I think in the five years I've been here we've only denied one application well sometimes like one one I think is like she can't open up her front door and she's not allowed to change the front door but the door is Fallen shut but she has to keep her front door because it's a historic door so she has to use an entirely different door of our house and then you know just there's just been multiple you know stories and I I don't want to take up take up all the time I just have two two quick things a solution two quick things one I don't I don't think and I asked Francine I don't think we ever received this this stuff in 2021 okay so I don't know why we didn't receive it but I just found out about this like like two weeks ago and I couldn't figure out why our home would be added because obviously it's not historic and it was a struggle to even find out why and I just I found out why we're having this I found out yesterday well what was the point of the 2021 notification I thought you wanted to give people advanced notice we well we sent out that was a separate public hearing and then we had a public hearing to discuss this the exact same thing we're talking about now back in were the homes that were non-contributing part of mail or back when because I'm I shocked that I yeah you don't you don't call or like send a certified just to make sure the homeowner who's home is the subject of this is aware of it I mean people get a lot of like mail from the town and junk mail you figure that would be highlighted you you just pick like you said get outside your narrow world and look at your neighbors get on the phone and call right takes a minute to call just to let you know let somebody know hey your home is the subject of this didn't go out certified last time did in 2021 no this one this one yes but the original one so I just want to make sure you guys know that I just found out about this two weeks ago and then when I asked why I was told I had to submit an open publ record act request to find out why and then yesterday eventually I got the 370 page thing email to me so I tried to read it but um it's hard to read that one day right especially since I'm working but I did look at chapter chapter 93 right I did look at Chapter 93 and I saw the criteria by which something can be added as historic to the historic district and when I reviewed those criteria I didn't see anything that would apply to our property and then I skim through that report and I don't see anything that would apply to that property and now I think the only thing I have is just to make it continuous or contiguous with other properties which I don't remember that being one of the criteria for designation if I may I think your property uh was in the original National register historic district and correct me if I'm wrong I did not do this survey I'm sort of sitting in for the person who did um so I please anybody on the board on the commission if I'm not saying the right thing but um part of this was also to examine the 1979 National register historic district that's when it was originally listed and to see what possibly could be in here to again make it more uh contiguous with that district and your property is is within that uh area so that may be one of the reasons that um it was recommended to be placed in um it's also sort of surrounded on three sides by the district and the the question of well what happens if I make a change and if you're in a historic district with an ordinance everyone in that district has to abide by that ordinance if you will um and and and have to come before the board to make changes that is sort of a pain on the other hand as guy just mentioned that um for the most part the studies say that where you have an ordinance in a district um that usually benefits economically property own their their values go up more than outside the district I look at that yes that's great on the other hand the houses were probably pretty nice before you you know before they actually made the district so I I I'm not taking with a grain of salt but they they they uh they probably would have risen more anyway in that area but again the studies do show Studies have shown that economically it's good to be in the district your values should rise better why because everybody's in the same boat everybody you know in a district that the person across the street that's in a district isn't going to in a in a district where you have two and a half story houses say Victorian houses colon Revival houses they're not going to knock their house down and build a one-story flat roof building um that is going to really undermine everybody's value because everybody in that District's going to have to look at it um whether you're contributing or non-contributing that change is going to alter the landscape ape of the district and so when I look at where your property is I I believe it's on in on Prospect Street is that what we're talking it's in the corner of prospect of Plainsboro Road okay so that area then that that location which again is in the original historic district um is uh or could be you know vital to keeping the uh the continuity of the district the historic continuity if you will or appearance of the district correct me if I'm wrong let me just because under the current buffer zone allocation um of historic properties you're within the buffer zone and under the proposed alignment you would be in the historic district um but the requirement because you're you're nonconforming um you would have no different requirements placed on you than what you have now have now yeah you would do have to to do exactly what it doesn't matter if you were in the buffer or if you were a non-complying with property nonconforming property as you guys are defining but you you would still have to do the same application we would have to have the same review process and we would give you the same comments to whatever your changes are that you want to make and just so just to make sure it's non-contributing non contributing I'm using the wrong I'm using terminology so non-contributing conform the difference between non-contributing and being in the buffer is zero yes so Ju Just last thing I'm sorry for taking so much time but I just want to make sure some things were clear like one we didn't get notice back in 2021 and two so that so in the end the only criteria in Chapter 93 that applies to the property is because in 1979 it's within the bounds of the National Historic District is that correct there's no other criteria in Chapter 93 three correct chapter chapter 93 the ordinance not yeah I'm talking about the ordinance the ORD my reading of the ordinance is that it control it lists the criteria by which a property can be added to the commission the criteria is is I'm I'm not an attorney and I'm so U my interpretation of this criteria is that these criteria are for designating a district or designating a specific landmark or site not for the criteria for every property inside the district it's for designating the district as a whole again I'm not an attorney but if that's my interpretation of Chapter 93 okay my reading of it was it that's controls how you determine a site a dwelling a property would be added to the um you know to the to the to the commissions you know area whatever it may I I don't know if I have the right wording but I just want to make sure that's that's the only criteria we're saying is because it was part of the 1979 natur National Historic District designation I don't know if that's an official criteria it was part of the recommendation um to include these resources because they were part of the district um it's not a specific criteria did when when making the recommend did did you or whoever take I correct I I stand correct it it should be consistent with the national register boundary so it is a criteria okay so so those criteria in Chapter 93 were taken into account when making the recommendations I assume I can't say for sure I can I'll check on that okay so we'll U we'll follow up on that um I also have a notice to follow up on the 2021 notifications um I'm pretty sure the township doesn't send things certified but I can follow up and see I think we got we got a certified notice of of this I think Robert has a record was it sent certified then yes it's always sent certified no um it's always sent certified but regardless you got it now you know you were notified as21 did get it now so it's yeah I don't know what that means no yes oh but I thought during the presentation you said I thought the idea was for the same exact thing yeah but I thought during the presentation I got the impression you were saying that by doing this in 2021 you give people long advanced notice isn't that why you included that the presentation okay but I just thought the I thought the reason why you included that slide in the presentation Noti notice in 21 was for the public hearing that was held in 21 so for this so people could like talk about it yeah and we did have people coming we did talk yeah so I'm sorry you guys it must have you know been misplaced but yeah we believe it was so we yeah we lost that opportunity in 202 I will add one thing um so I'm getting the sense that you're not satisfied with the answers in terms of how your property would change in between the buffer area to a non-contributing property in the district what we're doing tonight doesn't actually change the master plan what we're doing tonight is to hear the feedback we'll be making a recommendation to the planning board but it's the planning board there will be another public meeting that that the the planning board will have a public meeting where they vote on this change so if there is more that you want them to take into account you should make that clear then and then after the planning board that's the change in the master plan the township committee will be the on to do the designation so there's still more that you want to make sure that they take into account those will all be at public meeting so I even though I can tell that you're not satisfied tonight this tonight's vote is on a recommendation this this isn't the end of your chance to have yourself hard uh Justin Landy 138 North mate street thank you am I spelling your last name l n d o fi thank you um I bought my house in 2022 so I didn't wasn't able to get the the original not so that's why it's the first time I'm here um couple questions I watched the meeting that you guys had the last two weeks ago and it seemed like you weren't totally sure that these non buffer zone rules would get put through with this new addition to histor Historic District I think you mentioned that like if that doesn't then you're going to have to apply like the full-blown historic Rules by letter of the law now obviously you have discretion um to uh to a not contributed property like my own um so one I I kind of think that should be a priority and and that I don't think you don't think you should be a you should pass the historic additions without having how you plan on governing those non-contributing properties I feel that's that's very fair um because like I said like I I don't take anything for granted you know like I um I have my own business I know like there's certain things like you we can say things but unless things get written down like you can't assume right so that's my first thing is that any like any uh any new codes need to be put in with the the historic district not something we pushed off till later um and then the other thing is that so the plan was the plan is to uh put the buffer zone rules for non-contributive properties right so step one of the historic buffer uh Zone rules is um you shall determine whether proposed work will have a significant visual impact on adjacent historic landmarks or s I know you had had you were kind of rephrasing that to just historic district which um isn't in here but if that's the new plan to put in versus this one that kind of wanted to see so if it's adjacent historic so a property like mine has two non-contributing properties next to it so technically anything I Do by the way it's written here wouldn't have any visual impact on the histor according to this right then then it says in the second part um it uh if the commission determines that the proposed work will not have a significant visual impact on Historic Landmark or site which in in the previous one was adjacent it shall issue a c certificate of approval and it doesn't go down to step three where it lists like site terms of scale height design layout so I guess the issue that I'm having is we don't have the criteria set in stone for what you're going to you know uh decide is appropriate for a non-contributing property so I feel like that is like a giant thing right because we can sit here and say hey you're non- distributed property so forth and so forth you know but you don't even have as Amendment to the master plan what you're going to govern those on right totally agree with you um we it's the township committee who will make the changes to the code so our recommendation will be to make both of these changes and in fact probably if they can when they do the order of the votes that night that they vote on the changes to the code first before they do I'm you know that's all we can do is recommend and so we can't promise anything but I can promise you that I agree and I will ardly advocate for what you're saying but then so what but shouldn't you as a commission put together what your recommendation would be to them right like you're not going to say oh yeah put the buffer because you just tell them to put it through like it is like section D then we have the adjacent non-adjacent issue Robin can you provide an update on the how it will be drafted the exact language we are going to have a Township planner work on it and then it's going to go through the attorney to make sure the legalities are correct and then it's going to be recommended to the Tate what do you know what your recommendation is going to be to them whether it's going to be this adjacent rule where it's just uh because that's how it's written like when you're saying when you say theor historic district that's not what's in D here this says adjacent right so but the way you were talking the last meeting and in previously was no it's just like the general streetscape which would be different than what's in here so I think that's you know really important so adj so you're saying the definition of adjacent meaning exactly right next door versus adjacent being like cross street that's buffer zone for that's what a buffer zone is for right a buffer zone is here's my here's my historical Farm building right because there's one across street down the road right so as you're driving down like when you look at that does the adjacent property like catch your eye and make it seem not historic right it takes you out of that feeling of immersion right yeah so when I'm on the other side my property is not adjacent right you're looking at Myer but that's not what but that's not what it says in the current Jason is the word that yeah I mean that's that's what this says right so you can change it make your recommendation to change it but that's that's I'm saying like there's a lot of like gray area where you're right and because this this was written not to apply to the district this was written for landmarker site so um in the button so you're absolutely right to highlight that that difference um until the planner and the attorney write it we can't but you're still making a recommendation to them right because you're recommending to add these properties what I'm saying is you know and you're also recommending to add these buffer rules in can maybe this is you know our chance to hear from you what and this this whole thing is really just us trying to implement what the town has asked us to do so if you can provide your feedback right now about how you think that should be written I think that way it can be taken into think the issue right and and my main issue is if you look at the map right of this North Main Street Edition right correct me if I'm wrong I don't I've only moved a couple years ago I'm assuming this was just farmland and a couple historic buildings and then we built houses on it over the last 60 years right so to turn that into a historic district where you want to have like 12 houses in a row like on one whatever it is on on the right side of North me stre go north and the left like anything you do it won't make it historic the history of that place is Farmland right the way to be historic is to knock all our houses down so it it's just like I just like I again I we're arguing over small things right most of these things like aren't going to come to to any much of really much of an issue like you're very lenient but to to the point like that he was making earlier sorry I forgot your name but like you you know as homeowners we're going to be there for I mean I'm going to be there for like 40 or 50 years right like I don't want to move and so right now there might be a more lenient you know committee right now there might be I think you mentioned like an attorney uh Town attorney that wouldn't want to put a lawsuit on to any of us so really we could do kind of what we wanted without being there but 15 years from now there might be because there was other historic districts that are strict there's other historic districts that you know of that have stepped in and said hey uh you know you have to put a stop order on this and and they can't actually build it right now that might not be this current Committee in this Township but things change right like I I don't take anything for granted so that's why just what goes into the master plan what goes into like the written these like that's very important it shouldn't just be oh we'll put in the historic buffer zone rules like it it's that should have been done not before this ideally right so that's what we can have a debate about and a discussion about like what's what's there and to me you know adding all of the because like what percentage of properties that you're adding are actually contributing it's very small right like it's it's of the of the 29 properties it's like you can tell me it's a very little amount because the majority of this was just Farmland so yeah it is it's fewer but we're with removing the the buffer area we're I also don't understand thatting like yeah we're have having an opportunity to impact areas that are going to make more of a difference versus the backyards of houses in the buffer area yeah I mean I don't want to get yeah I don't like yeah why it's going through again my main thing is um what gets put in for what governs in non-contributing properties I think needs to be a part needs to be R needs to be sent to us right um because you are making a a recommendation to the township right it's not to the township commit so that and then um yeah this this adjacent you know yeah like I believe that like if you're going to go this way adjacent properties I have two non contributing next to me then by putting this in I should be able to do whatever I want to that is there a word that you'd recommend instead of adjacent that no I'm happy with adjacent because my two properties are notri it works for you so that's why this works for me right because it's not contributing right I mean it's it's adjacent and I would I would agree with that though right because like what are we trying what what so like I I have a one-story ranch house right and I have a a sister-in-law that you know was a little bit older you know and and she in maybe 15 years like maybe I want to build a second story and have a family M move in with me right and then this this these section three a through D specifies height right so so let's say I I want to build a second um a second story on my on my house and there's a new committee 15 years down the line and they look at this and say oh height sorry and the word adjacent not there there we switch it to something else and so now I can't add a second story because there's a more stricter grouping again that's worst case scenario but you can't assume anything I'm jumping in um what is the property at the end was it end of Park Place where somebody jump in where they took the ranch house they added the Second Story they did that giant picture window on the second floor Cap Cod yeah it was a Cape Cod and it was within the district yes okay so I don't think and we approved that I don't think we can future proof you know for 15 years with with what's in here you can future proof with what's written in here right so I understand that you are generally very easy to work with and I appreciate that right I'm not accusing you of not being easy to work you know I'm just looking at what is written down that is it and when I see if I go through the the the step-by-step process and I said 15 years I want add addition and we don't put this adjacent in there and then I asked myself what does that accomplish right what is preserving a house built in the 1959 built 1959 that is not having a visual impact when you look at the farm you know that way on the other side of the road for my house what are we accomplishing there and I think you know your presentation you said oh it it's confusing to people okay it's confusing to people who don't live here but what's more important like the people that live here in their houses than confusing somebody that comes in everyone comes in on PL Plainsboro anyway but if you come in off of 130 you go down North Main Street like you're confused about historic district like I just don't I don't see the advantage to that um I see and I see more possible hindrances for myself down the down the road um so I would like uh one very clear how you will govern non uh contributing properties and I think the Jason uh rule should like make sense to me because it still will preserve the few historic properties that are in that North Main Street side the South part like I understand you're kind of in that District like that's a whole other story but this whole like we're adding this whole new property which is farmland and now we're saying all of these one two three four five like all these like 18 houses on North Main Street you now we're just we're we're not historic we're on Old farmland and now we're going to have these like guidelines imposed upon us so that's that's my I wanted to say thank you for your Fe you very much yes thank you anyone else two more good evening everyone uh my name is Mark Browski 167 North Main Street uh first of all I want to thank everyone volunteering sitting on this committee I've been on those kind of committees before we're all trying to do the right thing I've heard our you know my neighbors saying similar things we wanted to do the right thing so um I didn't think I could get here early enough so I wrote a letter uh but for the the public I want to just read it and then discuss some of the things I heard tonight uh I've been an advocate of historic preservation in cranbery for over 40 years in that time I've been a m member of the cranber historical and preservation society and chair of the historic preservation committee during the creation of the original historic preservation ordinance I was part of the team that created that ordinance we discussed in detail the limits of the historic district and buffer areas one of the issues was the North End of Main Street where the three historic houses are located these houses are outside the historic Village District but are valuable to the entire context of cranberry's housing stock and its agricultural Heritage therefore those three houses were listed as part of the preservation district and a 200 foot buffer was created to provide protection to those houses the remaining adjacent land on both the East and West sides of North Main Street are all new construction from 1980 to now and should not fall under the guidelines of our truly historic houses I therefore respectfully request these properties not be changed and the three homes remaining continue with the 200 foot buffer that's what I had in writing let me bring some context I don't know Dave you might be here almost as long as I have uh okay mine's 50 years I I know my daughter was conceived in crar and she's 52 so anyway um historic district in cranber started in 1979 as a state historic district in 1980 it became the National Historic District we use those guidelines to establish what you're working with now and when you look at the map and if you could bring it up I think it would be helpful to see what we're talking about the North Main Street has three houses that are not in the current historic district they are historic they National houses but they have nothing to do with historic district more importantly is the context of agricultural and what it means meant to Cranberry in its history is that the one we I'm talking that the the current no the proposed right oh yeah so when you look at what is proposed you have the largest tract of land is in agricultural preservation nothing can be built on that except for basically one home so we know that is what are we preserving there we're already preserving it in the fact it's part of the uh Farmland preservation the three houses to the north are not in historic district it would almost be like adding uh we have a the house on um where the uh sudler property is if you're familiar with that house that was a house Historic Society F fought to have preserved that's not in historic district but it's a historic house we have other ones around town not in historic district so I would say the historic district starts where the blue is on Main Street and not the three houses before it and if you're concerned with driving in we have a sign as you come into to cranbery Historic District that is all to the south of what you're proposing now when you drive into cranberry it's 40 miles an hour until you get to that sign so these three houses are really nothing to do with the historic district as we're talking about it it does have a lot to do with the relation to Farmland we're also now saying the houses across the street from that or that it's not historic at all if anything these three houses are in wrong place not the historic district being in the wrong place the house um all the way to the north side has buffer now on the west side of North Main under this proposal they don't have that buffer so the neighbors there could build something that would really impact that house which is 165 North me that's the house I used to live in and restored it we ripped off the siding and and redid it that was part of it I now live behind it you probably don't even know my house is there I have a long driveway and yet that is part of it you can't see it from the street and I'm again firm Advocate streetcape is extremely important but those houses can't be seen from the street so why do they fall under the context even though it still falls on the buffer because certainly wouldn't want to do anything that would impact that but to take those properties and the ones on the west excuse me the east side of North Main I think is really taking away from the historic district it's now putting just as you've heard some neighbors complaining about that everybody wants to do it right but it's not the historic district so I think if you not look at taking these three houses and making it the historic district leave it where it is and strengthen it and I went through this with neighbors when I worked on this in 1980s before historic preservation commission it was eight historic preservation advisory committee you to have more teeth than the old advisory committee I know you you're saying you don't have the teeth but you do because if you reject something I think the application process is to go to Township committee and appeal it now maybe that's changed but that's way it used to be so your HPC is much better than you hpack you have much more teeth now now I don't know if that's changed but that's the way it was so I'm going back and some of the history which I I hope the history of how we got here will help a little bit uh in in this whole discussion uh the the other thing I wanted to mention that the 2021 notice I had no recollection of that either so I don't know whether I missed it which is very possible but the certified letter got my attention sounds like it got a few other people's ATT which is the right process when we do planning board zoning and everything else that's the way it's done so I think the process is right but whether we missed it very possible but that that's why we're here um yeah I I really think that that's all I wanted to mention but I think yet this this is the thing you have to think of more than anything else yeah in this big change because you are losing some buffer at least in the 165 wor main that buffer is no longer there um and you're creating more than I think the inten is and it's it's and the and the process unless things have change it is pretty easy come in but you do have to make application I want to do something in my house I have to make application if my house was outside the buffer which it is I make submit a building permit and I'm fine so there's a an issue with building permits as well and admin administratively and the burden for a building inspector is prior approvals they will not do plan RW without prior approvals zoning planning and ERS as one of the prior approval so that's the process that has to go so I don't think it's that burdensome maybe because I'm in the business I've I've done it long enough it isn't that burdensome so I just want to relay allay some of the fears of of my fellow residents it's a simple process fill out the paperwork and you come in so but do we need to do it for those properties that are really not in the district Mark I just have a question yeah so the number of the properties that we want to include on North Main Street which I don't think you mentioned but there are a number that were not included in 1989 um that are aging in so I don't know how you address those there's a there's a number of them that's where we're filling the gaps between those three blue properties outside the historic district currently but there's a number on both sides of the street some of them are contributing to the historic district streetcape so I don't know if you've addressed that so you're saying not to include those at all right I guess the Aging in I'm Aging in is the problem they're all Aging in right and this was done in a snapshot in time exactly would you mind so much as just because maybe it's because it's late um but yeah just providing a what you would recommend um because I what I'm what I'm trying what I'm hearing is you would like the historic district to be where the main downtown is where the blue is not to have those existing houses in the historic district the three you want to remove those three from the historic district but still but you want preserve them with the buffer yes I think that's important asking us to just to leave it the way it is now okay it's very important to preserve those three houses without a question yeah um can I can I ask your opinion about 124 North Main Street because when Richard Grub's office did their surveys it was noted as a h significantly contributing property I'm not familiar with that specific property it's the Benjamin and Mary Van Dyk house it's the little AP Cod I think um and it was found to have um High significance is a key contributing it's recommended as a key contributing property hly have take a look I just thank you okay thanks I'm sorry your question oh um so the recommendation was that that building be added to our historic district because it is considered a very significant building as a key contributing resource to the district so if we do not extend our district up North Main Street would we add that as like a fourth individually buffered property yes because again the buffer is doing really the same thing okay I agree thank you okay thanks very much I'm Tony Moore of 131 North Main Street another one in the same area can you spell your last name please can you spell your last name please oh more m o o r e um so I'm actually wondering given that my house is a two-story Colonial that was built I believe in 1929 so maybe mine's one of the ones that possibly in the contributing category I don't know 131 131 yes it's contributing so that meaning that it was built during the period of significance which ends in 1940 and actually I'm not going to do this I'm gonna let the expert describe this I think some of my yeah it would have to be architecturally intact for the most part obviously all buildings have changed uh but that is one criteria and that it would be uh uh built within prior to 1940 which is the what they call the end of the period of significance so that was at least to the criteria that um and that could have also been somebody important living there or some major event that happened on that property but architecturally it needs to be um you know built before 1940 and architecturally intact okay I know it's been extended prior to me owning it but so it's not the well yeah again they all they all change and also it's when those changes were made because they become historic in of themselves so they are made in 1939 those changes would be considered historic yeah I think the extensions were probably done in the 80s yeah I I wish this was more objective it gets uh uh historic preservation on WE the whole purpose of the ordinances and the review and Architectural guide or uh design guidelines is to try to take the subjectivity out of all this but um it's not engineering it's a different animal okay um so I have two questions so one is the large Farmland areas immediately behind my property so what does what's the implication of adding it to the historic district above and beyond what was already mentioned that it's already historically preserved Farmland anyway um I think I'm going to make a guess I don't remember um but I believe it's because um you can still build on historic preserve Farmland they actually have built um on that area they build you can build Farm structures Farm structures um and so those are they actually um further south I believe they built a a farm structure on the preserved Farmland um and so it could you know be something that um you don't know what it will be so I think that it would be good because the uh Farmland is very important to our Township for preservation purposes and history um why we recommended it to put it in so that would mean adding it to the historic district means that any proposed farm structure would have to go through all these review okay all right okay so now I understand um so going back to my immediate property since I've looks like if this all goes ahead mine becomes a contributing property what is the implication of that cu the one potential thing that I was thinking of doing which I know quite a few people in town not in the historic district have done is ADD solar panels to the roof would that then be something that probably would not be approved on the front streetcape um I I know we've approved solar panels before um we but we approved solar panels that are not seen from the front streetcape oh okay so on yeah on the back okay yeah or on the top with the understanding that there are only certain elevations where you can you know yeah put solar panels my case it's probably more facing south and west which is not from the street because the Street's Facing East so um that would be good for you we did approve panels um I'm thinking of um house on uh we did a barn nor Street the barn on North Main Street so but it's said far back right it's is facing the street it's not right at the and we asked them it had white roof or gray roof shingles we asked them to and the roof needed to be replaced to put black roof asphalt roof on so the panels aren't that too obvious okay all right okay yeah and we approved one that was like on the home was a sort of a flat roof and um so we approv panels for the flat roof because you can't really even see them okay right so that's all my questions thank you thank you your your house is an L-shaped house right it's got if I'm looking at the right property looking at and it's you look at from the air the a-shaped house right so you have roof facing south and you have roof facing west so correct putting panels on those two roof yeah I think that's the only practic be fine and you'd need those um exposures anyway to get good performance and that's not visible from the stet basically it should be it would be fine okay all right thank you thank you I ask a question regarding panels I'm sorry a little bit out of place here well it brings up your question too about um and the other question about adjacent properties if this was a non-contributing house um I would assume that panels would be appropriate on on even on the front of the house because it's not really impacting houses around it would that be correct unlike if someone wanted to build a what somebody proposed for my house one time for solar panel which is a freestanding unit which would have been about 16 feet high and 30 feet long um if somebody wanted to build that in the historic district um that I would think would certainly impact adjacent properties um unlike panels on the front of the house so that may or may not be a scenario that you can you can think of in terms of non-contributing resources and I don't know whether you have had experience with that or not I don't think we've had a request for a non-contributing or buffer resource to have the panels yet but but what you just said as far as contributing resources that's pretty much uh how most s the design guidelines that I've seen um work it but good in this age of uh you know sustainability and uh it's it's it's always going to be an issue uh to the point of you know the actual design of those panels uh would they be appropriate for a historic building or or a contributing building um on the front Sid so to be seen do we have any other um com public comments hi hi my name is k first name K and G last name j j i a yeah sorry first name Kong k a n g last name j j i a from one uh 148 in northmain street so a couple of comments here so I feel like uh you know uh I've been here for 80 years or so and I'm on the same boat with a lot of uh uh uh neighbors here I didn't receive a communication from 2021 or 2019 or whatever so I feel like uh through this process I learned a lot today and I really appreciate the vocation and uh and share on this information I feel like uh maybe through this process getting to the to the end of it we can get a better communication on this not only from the mail but you hear the questions like uh some of the you know the house will go from the zone to non-contributing and some house will go from cont non-contributing to contributing I really hope you know from this uh letters we reive you know I can clearly see this information I learned today I I learned today that my home was in the zone I I didn't know that I've been here for 89 years and I know it's The Zone but later that maybe in the will become a non-contributing because that's literally 35 years I I hope that something can be leased out in the communication so better understand the implication of it that's like a one comment that uh I have and one question I have is even this need to be approved later Etc what once it approved will be a grace period for the implementation of this rules zones Etc so maybe some of neighbor already have something in plan that I don't want get into the situation like say in December I want to do something but November just become as own like I need to get approval and reject whatever so is there any consideration for that for the buffer grace period of implementation thise I I don't know the answer to that I mean the only thing I I don't know that there's a grace period I mean it's just going to take time for this to wind its way between yeah us to zoning to TC back to zoning back to TC to I think what he's asking is like if let's say he has an application and we approve it and then things change with his home you'd be grandfathered in if we that's what I'm thinking is like I think we kind of and I know we do there's grandfathering with like um homes you know that have been that were done certain way before that it became a historic district and there's grandfathering I know on on street signs on Main Main Street we look at our our committee looks at street signs um building signs like store signs and there are some signs that are grandfathered um so I would guess if an application was made before anything was changed Chang I think that the it would be fine I agree I don't think the the approval would be lost for having change the code um that being said your specific property our goal is to make it so that the same rules apply that you won't have any change and I I like work that's important to us work that's it's not it's not up to us it's up to the TC TC can even designate the properties even if we vote no tonight it's we're just making a recommendation but it is important to us that the standards be updated to reflect that these non-contributing properties don't don't need the same uh review that this code says that applies to them now okay I have a question um do we know the timeline for I where we've been talking about this process of recommendations and planning and Township committee and back and forth and second readings things like that do we have by the end of the year by the end of 2024 yeah that's what I thought yeah okay can I make a quick request can just and I I know a number of homeowners had the same issue where they didn't receive notice about that about this back in 2021 so that kind of gives us like very limited amount of time to resp respond to this right um could you send in writing the proposal to the township Council like send the affected homeowners in writing like a letter saying this is what we're proposing to the township Council and with specifics on how it impact each home in the district because I've heard some conflicting things tonight I just want to make sure it's in writing like my understanding of how this would impact my property and it might be beneficial to some of the other home owners as well I know initially I heard that you know if I made an application a suggestion might be made to the zoning board but then I heard later that uh you'd have to appeal to the zoning board right to overcome a decision by the commission so it's still up in the air to what that even they have impact my property so helpful for us or at least helpful for FR yeah I think it's again it I'm sorry to interrupt it depends on whether your property is contributing versus non-contributing I think that's the Bigg thing where I I I I hear you it is it's complicated because um we have language for non-contributing properties we have language and and you know guidelines for contributing um I think I don't I mean so you're asking for um another notification to go to impacted homeowners prior to TC just just so I think the what I'm is the Comm commission is going to make a recommendation to the township Council correct to make these changes planning planning so next step is planning board okay so all right I'm sorry so the commission's G make a recommendation of plan correct so if if we could have it writing what the commission is going to recommend to the planning board and then specifically if it sets out how that recommendation would impact both conforming and non-conforming properties I think that helpful to the homeowners to be able participate in the process plan but that's what Mr fo indicated so the public is invited to the planning board hearing that's where that Amendment to the master plan is going to take place and they're going to discuss that to approve that and then go so that's gonna be October 10th 7 o'clock same place and that's where the public also I understand but just to see the recommendation in advance so there's pack on the website no no so it's drafted and the master plan amendment is on the planning board website and you can go there that plan board meeting check every day no whenever it's there right now it's there now yeah yeah and when they have so it is already no it's drafted and the public is invited to go to that website to look at it for their reference if they would like to come to the public hearing on October 10th Oh I thought this was tonight was to shape the recommendation the the planning board just want needs to hear our recommendation as to how they should perceive the amendment and so we're gonna vote whether we would recommend it or not but that's simple Yes okay this is a plan and you guys say yes plan yeah and the point of the point of this hearing tonight was just to get this like quick feedback from that notice we had two weeks ago before you take that vote yeah okay yeah was to get public comment and then a lot but but you know we can we can make we can also make a conditional yes you know you can say we approve it but we also recommend the following things be considered which is why we wanted to hear from all of you yeah um again I think I heard um your feedback about not receiving the 2021 notification I I am sorry that you um don't feel like you had enough time to prepare for everything um we do try to be as transparent and as foregoing as we can which is why again we we did have a a public meeting in 2021 and sent out I'm sorry you didn't receive your letter but we did to try to give people the preview of what we were working on as we were going along I'm sorry that you're um finding this out at this juncture but we um hear your feedback um and you know we'll um you know and I appreciate the other public comments as well too because um we you know we're again an advisory committee and we're meant to represent as well like what the homeowners are looking to do as well as feedback from our Municipal planners historians Etc so um is there anyone else who would like to provide U public comment actually I would because my house is on oh my has been added so my house is she need to go into another do I need to go into another oh here we go well I am Amy and I live at 17 Bunker Hill and we just bought the house last summer and I actually just want to know my house was built in 1819 why it wasn't even on the list to begin with and I don't know what's changed I mean I I thought I was already in the historic district I just I'm just confused I just want to know why I have no problem with anything because I know my house is an old house and I want to make sure that it's within the guidelines and I want to make it historically preserved I just want to know why it was never on the list to begin with and it's it was on it was on the list but the whole ENT lot was not on the was not included in the historic district so part of this initiative there was a number of properties like that it was like partial okay so what a part of this initiative was to uh create the whole block lot of that property to include it in the historic district okay yeah that thanks okay um all right great so at this point let's close public comment and can we finish the public hearing are we done okay so now can we move on to Applications okay should we we don't have to vote yeah plan board does the vote okay we're not voting the planning board's going to do it at TH yeah okay all right good um all right so let's move on to Applications um we have an application um for 33 South Main Street just made it okay I have a call in eight minutes oh my gosh thank you for coming oh bless your heart thank you um thank you folks yeah thank you it's uh pretty simple just white shutters black hinges I put a mockup picture in my proposal um the uh I put the shutters they're going to be on um are designated in the second picture I attached um it's the front and it's the South Side I so you're basic you had taken them off and then there's none on there yeah there were taken off when when it changed hands yeah and I tried to restore them but they're all rotted out I could only save like one of the entire set everything shutters you like the crescent moon we were gonna fill the moon with with with wood fill yeah just kiding you yeah so is that the only difference between the proposed shutters there's no difference it's just the background color there's a sill um oh the sill yeah if the shutters themselves are exactly what we would do it's just that that's a mockup and the windows are different than what is actually on our house oh so you're not doing the cells no no just the shutters nothing else just the shutters but you're putting are you including the hardware hinges yes everything in theist y okay that's good everything yeah I this Moon just for the record you mind say your name uh Chris Corby I own 33 sou aren cby I mean it's an option it's kind of a early mid 20th century thing it yeah that's the easy one more difficult application later when we try to redo the garage expand it we just had all the windows uh like refinished and repainted and everything and um resealed so that we can put the shutters on now so all right so we are GNA make a motion to approve thank you my wife will be very happy so moved second okay thank you roll call missm yes Miss Ryan yes Mr guy yes Mr H yes and Mr Sao yes thank you motion okay thank you for coming sorry you had to sit through all that it's it's okay Robin I guess education for you no Robin told me she's like you can come after the public part and I was stressing that I was here at like 710 thinking I was going to be a little late I didn't I just didn't know how long it typically took but it's no problem you'll make your phone call I'll make my phone call so that's really I was worried about thank you everyone so much you you'll be seeing this is the first of of many so we're starting with the easy one yeah no I like your house very much I looked at your house years and years ago and I loved it all the gardening is my wife yeah she just tore out all the flowers and put all something new in for the season nice next time it'll be the the garage we're trying we want to um expand the garage because we I have to park my car at an angle and we want to expand the garage um but that's I'll mock it all up actually have something for you good thank you bye okay so we're gonna go into Old business and um since we're probably all very tired I'm going to just do a quick checkbox and I'm going to go through and everyone's going to say no updates um unless you have an update okay I have an update on the first one all right HPC relationship with building department zoning officer so um a meeting has been scheduled for Thursday October 3rd at 2:30 um Brendan and I will be meeting with John melli nice right um any uh suggested topics well I mean I think the feedback that we were getting from um Mr Rusk is again an example of why um it's good that we're having this meeting because what I'm taking away is that homeowners um would love to have us do more collaboration with the building and Zoning departments and I know that we've been advised not to uh do that um so I think that that that's my personal opinion one one other thing we've come across this over the years is um uh renovation to a house in the historic district was started they went through the building department because struct there was some structural component to it so they needed to get a permit for that and um the homeowner never put an application into HPC so we always felt like if that comes through to the building department they see the home is in the historic district that they should ask the homeowner have you gotten HPC approved isn't that what Mr burkowski was saying that the plan review will not take place without prior approval but it it it has in the past it has you had things SLI through yes that's that's happened numerous times and a lot of times we get the um preview at first for the historical aspect of it and in in the approval of the application we say pending approve you can goad pending approval of zoning or you know the building department but that's that's the thing that's it's sort of been a hit or miss over the years okay um all right next topic uh Library HPC library books uh I would say no updates okay signage for the township um the only update I have is it looks like you know that white we finder that got hit by a truck they put up a new one which is pretty cool um and I haven't I haven't seen any other updates I did see a nice um Gateway new Gateway sign on the entrance on Plainsboro Road which is it looks awesome um so um I think I I probably had this as a followup from before we got to find out if there's any more that are going to come up know it would be nice to have a entering cranberry sign on cranberry road yeah cranberry neck and also by you said the El please the Elms yeah right that area from I mean right there oh it's still that intersection anywhere yeah anywhere in there okay um so I you know what I'm going to just make another note and remind myself to follow up um on those um gateways with Miss Marabella eight ways okay um okay next we have um our Coe for National register okay so on uh last week I went last week I don't know I went to um that was a week before I went to the uh melx County um Heritage such such in Piscataway right near my office and um spent a couple hours going through their surveys from the 1980s or so um both for Monroe Township and cranbery and um they're really sparse but I did make photographs of all of them I took P pictures of all the pages um but the one thing I did do is I noticed that some of the outline uh properties that are on the next topic um are um [Music] are have surveys so I took photographs of all those as well that we can use and I was going to like take the list that has been you know firmed up and see which yeah see which uh which uh surveys we now have um they're they're really sparse yeah but um nothing like what we have you know what we get now uh for our intensive leval surveys but it's a start so um uh I will follow up I was thinking Robin maybe I can upload the pages to um like a one drive file or something something so that everyone can take a look at it so I I'll I can highlight those on the list that we have information right um so I wanted to ask a question about um identifying designating historic sites because it talked about um going out after the trees are down and taking photographs but one of the things we had talked about last year was notifying the property owners that we will be taking photographs of their property and why we're doing it and that there was going to be a letter we were going to draft to go out to all everyone on the list does anyone remember that yes yes this is I mean that was when we do the official like actual surveys okay but not what you're doing no I have the order WR Street anybody picture okay you know just just just as a reference so when we discuss the properties we know right generally what they look like okay yeah I have the I have the order that we talked about written down but I haven't typed it out um but I'll try to capture it so we don't forget the order we because I remember we had spent time figuring out what was our order for this project what we discussed is get to that point we get to see another CG Grant and we do that um when we compose the letter to the property owners we can ask if if we can have permission for cons to actually go closer and get a closeup of the house yeah some Property Owners might make sure do we think we'll be ready for the CLG Grant round this year possible I me get submitted in January so I mean we'll already have a good basic information if we have the photographs to just kind of you know little yeah we should before the end of the year we should have that list finalized right maybe we can make that a goal okay um so are you're going out this month take the pictures now that oh my God you know that doesn't happen it takes a while okay um okay good okay so next for public Outreach just so y'all know um I'm going to do another one of our new mayor's Communications I'll work on that for this month now that we're in September or October um any updates on the interactive map Brendon not at this time um the only other thing I would say with public Outreach is I just wanted to pass these around for you guys to look at is I went to this really cool um preservation awards ceremony o um in the main line of Philadelphia and um these were all the awards they did and were really neat like they one of the winners was like a someone who re renovated a wall it was like a wall um you know of you know Old river rock or whatever and um along you know a property that was by the street and they took it all the rock down they put in the concrete and the correct drainage you know system and then they used the existing rocks as the facade um so they was a great it was a winner of the category for um you know preservation because it was you know they were evolving but they were still preserving that historic wall and I I I spoke with the the guy who was in charge of this Awards I said you know how often do you do this this was a huge um committee or a huge event and he said we only do it every other year sometimes every three years um so it's something for us to think about we if we do an award we don't have to do it every year um and then I said you know the Big Challenge we we've been faced with is um you know do we have enough applications and he said well that's why we do we try to find you know unique categories everything down to a wall so he cited that wall as you know an example so if you guys have time to look at these um um different um Awards and then I will it's going to be online you can actually watch it and they had a presentation with pictures I think if you go online you can probably see some of these things were done um but they had like they were awarding it to Architects and uh just a lot of like adaptive reuse um and so it was kind of neat that just the different categories that they had um they and they also the other thing that I thought was really interesting is they did an award for stewardship they did an award for education and then they did Service Awards to people within the committee who had served for a very long period of time so I know we have a few people in our committee who probably deserve an award for years of service um so again it was it was just interesting to see um oh and then they created an award in the name of someone who had done a lot so it's just I don't know I thought it was kind of cool um does anyone have any thoughts about this a initiative nice idea I I mean there's a lot that going into these Awards programs in terms of you know sending out notices getting applications I don't know if we would charge a fee to submit a project or whatever which most of these do um and then you have to have whether it's us or some other independent jury um selecting the award winners and going through the whole process yeah i' I've been through this process you may have as well many yeah too many times yeah um it's I I guess what I was thinking where cranberry was a little different in the fact that we we would be the committee we would look at projects or properties that have undergone renovation the last year and then decide on an an award winner yeah as opposed to you know soliciting application yeah agree doing it just do when things come up like one that comes to mind potentially depends how it turns out but the barns on cranberry Neck Road that proposal for adaptive reuse yeah of an old structure so they saving is it okay that they're not in the historic districts well I don't know you know something like that you know it it maintains the the the Farmland Vista yeah and they're doing something to prevent the the barns from falling down and is that project going ahead it was the barns that were being uh renovated into what the like family space and an office space hasn't started yet they're they're doing a little bit but yeah they would have to permits I'm not sure if they have yet or not but it's not like dead they're still trying to any progress but we could consider that as things come through like this oh might look at this at some point to highlight it okay okay so um I just thought it was interesting the way they had different categories it wasn't just like an application they had categories for other things I think that was what I thought was kind of nice um so again be it what it is but they do a nice job with the hotel the American Hotel project you know I'm just it's like the idea is like that's a that's a very we could do like a non-contributing property award or like an or contributing property award or like we could do Awards based on time periods you know of the home age of the home like you know pre um 1900s or post 1900s I'm just thinking like there's different ways of breaking out the different types of awards um and then do you know what the award actually was was it a plaque was yeah okay a plaque and a picture so yeah it wasn't that that's one nice thing is that it's it's a very um it's not something that requires it's not like you get like money or anything like that so um cool all right next um any updates on student ex officio volunteer for the commission I don't have any updates did anything happen conversationally or was I supposed to do something you were gonna send the um yeah I think I included you both right I have it when I forward it to okay all right I will and I think it needs to now go back get adapted for us okay that's right it's an action item for moah okay that I apologize I will um I will take a next step and look over that okay great okay awesomeness um Revolution New Jersey Bobby is not here did anyone attend the yes how was it I did it was lovely and we they need to do it every year yeah it was great yeah no it was it was done really nicely the actors for for great and it was it was nice cool so hopefully maybe there'll be something next that they'll plan maybe next year or something don't know um and training any updates on [Music] training no okay so we'll move into minutes I had no comments on either either set of minutes uh I made uh some comments on September 17th minutes um under identifying designating historic sites and I made a comment I just wanted to clarify uh the structure show sign of disrepair per cranbery ordinance I wanted to specify the ordinance and I had I added it online Robin so it should be there in red ordinance 11-12-14 which is the property maintenance code um and the code is 116-1 to1 um should be reported to the cranberry property maintenance code enforcement officer uh to contact the homeowners and inquire what they are doing to maintain the structure we should not the way it was worded it was like anybody can go up to the homeowner and say you know what are you doing that's not our place it's an official from the township and there is I don't know if it's an actual person or it's part of their job um but that's there is an official person to do that and then this let's see I think I did a minor something on the 20th but I didn't Mar but it's in it's in okay motion to approve the minutes with edits yes for August 20 so moved second okay motion to approve the minutes do the roll call for August 2th no worries misser yes Miss Ryan yes Mr Guyer yes and Mr H yes thank you um okay motion to approve minutes for a September 17th they moved second all right so with the Amendments Miss sum yes Miss Ryan yes Mr guy yes and Mr H yes thank you um okay so next we have discussion um I guess my my question for all of us is with regards to our public hearing we had our feedback that we received um what is our next stuck now with I'm I'm I just want to make sure I'm completely understanding with the packet for the planning board October 10th um are we going to uh revise any I know we wanted to we got feedback about um some of the language and the use of the word adjacent um should we take a look at what our what we're submitting again as a committee so that was for the ordinance correct not for the master plan yes okay so that would be separate if you want to you know the TC hasn't looked that yet okay but I think we got feedback that they're looking for us to try to submit that in tandem with what with what we're doing so but that's separate from the master plan no I understand I understand so um the TC hasn't even looked at anything yet so that can still go into consideration okay because Liz hasn't started on drafting the ordinance yet so so you're suggesting our next meeting we have a conversation about those recommendations or October 10th is a planning board oober 10th is planning board yeah but that's separate from the planning board so um I'm sorry what's separate from the planning board the ordinance but it wasn't it wasn't just ordinance changes that were recommended so are you also recommending changes to the master plan Amendment now as well due to the public comments I don't know I don't know NE I mean we had the recommendation that no agricultural land be included we we looked at it for Vistas right which we explained yeah I do we agree with that though to not include not include it was identified as a contributing property the the vacant or the f I mean because that that parcel touches Main Street Main Street that was the reason it that was the reason it was included I I guess I could I don't know if this is putting on the record or part of our recommendation I don't know how the rest of the commission feels about if there was a property that was on the outermost edge of the district in this expanded district and that property was would not be contributing to the district uh and so therefore it's not filling in anything of a contributing building if it had been identified to be added in this master plan um my my personal view would be if the planning board didn't want to include any property on the edge that wasn't inside of any contributing property I would I would support that if that's how they felt I don't know sounds reasonable oh someone has a question I don't know if this is on but just if it helps I heard a lot of language around ambiguity in and subjectivity when it comes to criteria which to the resident Point down the road as committees change you could have somebody that could have an objection to something that this committee doesn't have an objection to sitting here today so to remove that subjectivity my advice would be to get that criteria a little bit more tightened up versus streetcape and that goes along with the word adjacency anybody can it's just it's broad stroke well but then at the other we had heard from another homeowner who said that it was too specific and what happens if I need to build another floor on my home and it's non contributing but that's not HPC I that's Zing there's nothing we can do about that so what is what is the method for tightening up the language I think you need to create a criteria of which your evaluating and making recommendations to a non-contributing home in the buffer out of the buffer wherever it is no more buffer no more buffer yeah whatever that decision is you're still going to wrestle with a non-contributing homeowner coming in and not understanding what they have to do and what the criteria is and how you're going to evaluate their application I suspect that we don't have to invent something and that other historic districts have probably done this right and that we could probably find some examples to pull from the grow and Associates maybe they could very easily find that criteria since they did C so can we have possibly a member work with Liz for the criteria the wording of the ordinance that's going to be introduced to the TC okay so yes she's probably come across this's volunteering okay perfect okay awesome okay so I think that's a great solution um okay so are we um going to as far as our packet for planning board though and the maps um are we going to continue on with the maps as is or are we going to um make adjustments in your recommendation of the map um based on what we heard today with um with the feedback from the community can can we just add commentary to to what they were doing instead of like changes to what they're okay I think we should yeah would you guys agree I think we should maybe provide some comments and I think it's good that they hear they know that we acknowledge the feedback from the community right um I mean I personally don't agree with all of it but I do agree with some of it um so I think if we just were able to give provide a list of things that we've heard as concerns that would be fine like minutes well minutes yeah I mean minutes are for um yeah yeah and maybe um how soon will we be seeing the minutes maybe we use the minutes to make like document for them um can just extract items and just to give heads up as well the planning board's whole role is to find a consistent anything not consistent with the master plan so that's what they're voting on it's not necessarily what a public yeah exactly so they may find it consistent with the master plan or they may not I don't know but just to give you head up that's a role in this whole Realm made the point that at at some point all of us are going to get indoctrinated into being a non- Shadow Oaks is going to be a group of non-contributing houses eventually so the the language around this has to be a human attention to because eventually we're we're in the same book that's G to happen well I don't think the intent is to have the whole town a historic district no you know it's beyond the era of period of significance uh historically so this is just preserving and expanding The Village historic district and I was thinking your comments Mark with you know just the three properties that yeah there but there's other houses that are almost 100 years old that should be included and if they're Standalone with a buffer around it by the time you're done it's going to include everything that's here anyway if I've I've mapped that out if we [Laughter] added is that correct if we based on looking at the tax maps and the property widths I believe that if we added only the contributing buildings on North Main Street that everything else would be in the buff with and we we left the 200 foot buffer everything else would be in there except for two properties um 118 North Main Street and 175 North Main Street would be the only two properties not covered by a buffer on a contributing property there's not much difference other than being able to eliminate the buffer properties off of Main Street buffer then that includes the rear properties right yes it's all the way around I think that might be the issue is that people see the colors on the map and they see all this yellow and they think that these are all brand new houses not and I think they think that we're adding brand new houses to the historic district as non-contributing so should we be but in fact what actually has happened is that we've had a bunch of historic homes that have been modified to a point that they become non-contributing because they weren't in the historic district to begin with but even the new houses are from the 60s or so and you know with the criteria being 50 years or old aging are their aging but not everything is contributing already true yeah but they they do qualify under that one criteria and actually it's important to acknowledge that even as they get older and more historically relevant they can't ever become contributing to the district because period of significance is 1940 they they evaluated that and said period of the development changed from that point forward so even as they get older they won't become contributing they'll just be more noteworthy so I think what I'm taking away is that we actually we still really do believe that we need to continue with the path that was in the original proposal for the planning board and maybe what we do is um provide a summary from the minutes of the community feedback um and you know as well as some of our um color that we've provided and as well as part of this discussion tonight um so that planning board can have a full understanding of um of what was discussed um instead of having to sit on this two-hour meeting um and I mean in my own personal opinion I do believe um you know based on the feedback too from the municipal planner that we need to remove this buffer um as much I understand like we have recommendations to keep the buffer I know that you know we are hearing from powers that this buffer cannot be here anymore um I feel like we are are um compensating for that by filling in the gaps in the map and I think that um there are some houses in here that are just it's it's it it they they are part they are right in the middle of this historic district and I think they need to be included because I think of um what just happened over in I was telling Brendan about this over in jugtown with where you had a historic district and you had a homeowner who wanted to De demolish the back of their home and an apartment like land developer build a four story apartment building on the back of a historic structure and you know had that structure not been in the historic district it could have probably happened but it wasn't and HPC rejected that application and I think that we don't want people to decide to arbitrarily build a four-story apartment building in the middle of a historic district whether their house is contributing or not contributing even if it's non-contributing I don't think that couldn't happen because zoning wouldn't let it exactly true that that's true so yeah yeah you're not g to get anything more than two stories with the roof under zoning yeah yeah but um I do I do think we should fill in the gaps um um so hopefully um planning board will um agree um open public comment see yes we do have more uh let's see we are we discussed so yeah let's are we done with discussion well can I just say one thing because I guess it falls under discussion and nothing else um I just want to thank you Jennifer for the presentation that you gave because it was really well done I feel like I've Been Under Fire all night that's been very know I thought the presentation I'm trying to represent us as a group sorry if I get defensive group's appreciation for what you did it's tough to do that thank you thank you I'm just trying to do what's right for what you guys and what all of us have been working on so yeah I think it was a good good evening um you know I learned I certainly learned a lot I definitely also just as discussion y'all I I don't like hearing that we are difficult to work with and I don't know what had happened with um apparently know very neighbors very upset about how we talked about ad door I don't remember that happening at all in the five years um but that I believe was before our time that upsets me because like I feel like as as a group that's like the last thing we want to be known as so I just hope that like no I feel we try to work with the homeowner to find an appropriate uh solution yeah that's appropriate to the house yeah question can't imagine that a front door issue would I mean because it at the very least it's a say if you can't open that's a safety issue yeah and there are ways it has to be addressed there are ways to solve that problem I mean but we might be I'm I'm thinking about our communication initiative maybe we do think about a topic in a mayor's email about how we you know we are we are an advisor we're here to help we're here to work with you maybe something that so if someone is having an issue with historic home and they feel like they can't accomplish something like please come in and talk with us we've had that we've changed that on the website years ago yeah to we recom highly recommend before you even put together an application and have architect pay an architect to come up with plans and everything and comes through here and we have some concerns come to a meeting first lay out lay out proposing our input yeah then talk to your professional and put it all together yeah saves save time money and make the process go a lot SM I think it would also be helpful just from the people that were non-contributing in like on uh Prospect Street I think there's just a lot of un unknowns about like I I understand kind of their concern about being frustrated about what is what's the point you know and we understand the point but they also want to know like what are their Lim MIT and they want examples of like give us an example of you know what we are what would be would be limited to you know like you know like a fence or something you know like something that was maybe really like what are some examples of things that would really be affecting and we weren't we were just kind of being General again like being clear with the verbiage of things people maybe with Graphics or photographs to go with it of examples you you know so that we're specific and yes quick thanks well done Jennifer it's not easy to do what you did tonight presentation was awesome thank you it's you're always going to carry the weight of a committee prior to you that always is walks in the room with you whether you like it or not I speak firsthand from that and third I think exactly what you're suggesting and testimonials and making like HPC 101 I learned things on cranberry Daye from you and I proudly tearing my tape measure around you know and but I got the answer wrong but I still won because I learned something and that was the point everything is about education and kind of debunking like some myths around this committee um so I think some testimonials and doing some Outreach that making that the focus of it and getting some folks in town contributing and contributing talking about their ease of which they they work with you is great I sing your Praises every TC meeting I can when I leave a meeting and an applicant walks out of here that you guys go the extra mile and you're not just considering the applicant you guys have make recommendation after recommendation on things they're not even thinking of because of your experience on this committee so I'll continue to do that but also do it for yourselves too cool but well done tonight awesome and I'm taking just so you know for the record I'm I think trying to find some pictures with examples I love that idea I'm going to write that down maybe we can try to find some examp applicant was what was it six seconds that's a great example of this shutter this shutter okay let's both go and he was So Satisfied he said he'd be back and I wish everybody I wish that the people that had made the commentson they they could again they would be mystified that oh this is going to be C and taxing on me as as a pres but particular applicant when he mentions the next project garage I know the lot small that's zoning that's going to be that's going to be the big one absolutely uh great discussion um any other uh public comment Enlighten long as I stay uh first of all again I do want to thank everybody here been here I know what you're going through when we first put this ordinance together I remember sitting my back deck with somebody on the other side of the fence talk this is going to control so definitely know what you're you're going through um the one thing that I think got missed a little bit in an answer that was given to one of the people here and the process seems a little flawed you've now sent this already to planning board without comment from the public going into your thoughts so you're starting to fix that a little bit by setting some commentary yeah but I think the process should public comment you review it make your decision and then move it forward yeah I think we're up against the end of the year which problem but I hear you I hear what you're saying but at least I think you throw comments over whether people agree or not at least the planning World understand you've heard the comments and you can disagree with it but at least they know you've heard it yeah but again thank you again thank you for coming thank you okay great so just G to make a motion to adj journ now I'll make a motion to adjourn seconded second okay cool say I okay good she used the G yeah she uses it all