Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the rep for it stands one nation God indivisible withy and justice for all all right statement of adequate notice under the suntime law adequate notice in accordance with the open public meeting Act was provided on January 18 2024 of this meeting's date time and location the agenda was mail to the cranber press in Trenton Times posted on the township Bolton board mailed to those requesting personal notice and file with municipal clerk roll call Miss Anderson here miss elbadawi here Mr Fon here Mr Giddings here Miss Jones here Mr milenberg here Mr Stewart advis us he was not attending Mr Whitman here and Miss bom here thank you we have a quum excellent uh may I have a motion to approve the minutes from the January 11th meeting if you've had the chance to read those Miss B yes there's a mistake on the date okay let's have a look at that it just 2023 oh okay fair enough also the only other question I had was do we have to have a time in and time out for close I put in the resolution to State there was a closed session as required if you want I can definitely add that typically they're um if we have a time in and timeout they know we were in session 10 minutes or an hour 10 minutes that's fine all right great now know what time it was in and out fine motion to approve as amended I'll move thank you second second excellent thank you roll call Miss Anderson yes Mr fronte yes Mr Giddings yes Miss Jones yes Mr Whitman yes and Miss Bond yes thank you motion passed you'll see on your agenda that I have moved public comment up to the beginning uh of the meeting particularly because this is a residential application um residents don't typically come on large Ware house applications when it when it is in a warehouse area but I did want to be able to hear the public ahead of time um while we have time to maneuver however we are also only doing phase two but we are open to public comment do I have any public comment I'm just hearing none we will close the public comment section okay we have application PB 312-8 cranberry Commons Old Trenton Road um we will be looking at phase two tonight um so if you guys would like to introduce yourself state your name let's get you qualified by the lawyer and uh before you go too much further I just want to State for the record that I reviewed all the affidavits and publication for amended final for phase two uh only it's in order so there's jurisdiction to proceed there is no jurisdiction to proceed right now for the rest of it so we're doing phase two and um I could swear all your Witnesses and how many do you have okay so per uh Sharon for what you said I just want to make sure that we've uh documented that looking at phase three planning board does not have jurisdiction for use yeah and correct we're not reviewing that tonight only amended final for phase two which has um encompasses landscaping and lighting okay great okay thanks sh all right do you swear that the testimony that you're about to give before this board is the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you God I do okay um I don't know if you've given testimony believe you have but I ask the chair she'll accept you as an expert Sor on the record uh Shan Delaney San dny y uh principal with the firm Bowman Consulting Group LTD located at 303 West Main Street in Freehold um licensed professional engineer since 2003 to planner since 2008 I have testified before this board on several occasions on this application uh back in 2014 2018 uh to thing as well as another application recently the uh Assisted Living not assisted but the senior living facility on 130 also okay we accept your thank you and good evening my name is Michael Butler from the law firm of eard seaman here on behalf of the applicant um as uh Miss dragan I pronounced it correctly this time um as she said tonight we're here for amended uh final preliminary final site plan uh appr for phase two only phase three will be at at some later um later meeting um and basically what's happening is the applicant is asking for approval for some changes to some lighting on on the property and also some changes to some Landscaping on the property um that uh is being changed because of utilities the placement of utilities on the property Mr Delaney is going to run through the application um and uh explain to you what changes are being made um and uh you've qualified them so I don't have to do do anything like that um just for the record I think I just before he begins I just want to confirm I think I have four review memos one from Mr hoder dated January 26 2024 um one for Miss uh Lany Lany okay sorry dated January 29th 2024 and one for Mr fanda hold on one second I'm G to get his date January 29th 2024 and also a just a email from the environmental commission sorry shade tree commission dated January 24th 2024 I don't believe there are any other reports yeah there was a fire department um email but that is really phase three I believe yeah I didn't that's why I didn't mention impact this one yes yeah yes okay so without further Ado if you don't have any questions of me I'll turn it over to Mr Delaney good evening good evening thank you um obviously we're b as I mentioned we're here for some uh minor lighting changes and some Landscaping changes that have occurred as a result the construction uh located on the western portion of the mixed use building along Old Cranberry Road the property is is just for record keeping High Point Redevelopment area um block uh 20.16 lot 7 1 um a property has Frontage along Old Cranberry Road Old Trent Road and South Main Street this was the commercial mixed use um portion of the overall plan that included the town homes back uh originally in 2014 um the area that we're talking about like as I mentioned um and refer to an aerial exhibit existing conditions aerial map prepared by my office dated 2024 uh 129 January 29th and I guess we can mark that as A1 do you need the dates again yeah okay uh dated uh January 29th 2024 it's an existing conditions aerial yes thank you so yes we prepared on the 29th for this meeting today um so the the entire property Old crur Road Old Trenton Road and South Main Street Town Home say nothing is working on there the mixed use elevant that was approved as part of phase two phase three on the corner that we that deferred and will be done another time the area we are talking about tonight is up here at the Western corner at the intersection of old cranberry and Old Trenton Road specifically facing old Cranberry Road um okay got okay um so the the 2018 approval uh for this uh portion of the development the mixed use portion um included an outdoor seating area on the western area for potential restaurant use at that corner um it was you know accg grade with some steeper slopes coming off down towards the sidewalk um included some Landscaping some trees that were also being planted in that location if I can just interrupt um do you want this is a sheet two let's call this um A2 and say what it is okay uh sheet A2 is the lighting plan sheet three of four uh dated 828 2023 that was submitted as part of the application okay thank you um with the restaurant that included the uh applicant had added some fencing around the patio um and and a small retaining wall at that location to trry and soften it up reduce the steep slopes and flatten the grades from the from the edge of that patio out to the sidewalk to make it a little more aesthetically pleasing on top of that on top of the columns that were put in with the fence um which is why we're here one of the reasons we're here today is he installed there installed some uh post M Post Cap post mounted uh light poles on top of them um they were located right along the western portion during my drive by today I noticed they actually there are eight of them along that side they actually there are two other ones that have been installed on the posts that returned back towards the building so they're now actually a total of 10 light poles uh and light fixtures being installed at that location um the lights are 70 Watts they're not LED fixtures um they're more typically what you find find in your really almost in your house a 70 watt like incandescent bolt type of a fixture um soft a soft light more in the metal metal head the high pressure sodium side that light yellow glow um to try and keep it a soft area so it limits the impacts to the adjacent property specifically the um Housing Development to the West um there's a lot of talk early on back in the previous uh applications um about the light levels and and nuisances and some screening from headlights and stuff like that so um that obviously was all in the mind as well with the light with the the style of light as well as the wattage that was being proposed in those locations the lights are mounted about 5et off 5T off the ground on the top of the pillars right now there are no screening or Shields um installed at them and none are proposed at this time um the light levels at the property level at the property line when we reran them are substantially similar to what was done uh and what was analyzed previously without them um tries a little bit more light at the property line by maybe a tenth of a foot candle um by the time it reaches the curb the light level is back there and back down to zero um so it gives a little more actual lighting along the sidewalk um if that's a positive um for Illuminating that portion of it um so the negligible impact um I feel is is based on that light level is driving past it today um the light levels that I'm seeing from those lights as compared to the other lights the the I I noticed the lights inside the restaurant the lights on the the freestanding poles more uh they they caught my eye more than the lights on the patio um and we're not changing any other fixtures on the site this was strictly just the lights around the patio with regards to Landscaping before you go to Landscaping there was just one comment I think in Mr hodder's report just if if there was to be a complaint in the future um there would be no issue with putting a a guard on or a shield I should say on on the light no I I don't think that would be an issue whatsoever um I don't see any issues I know the original approval also had um Provisions for enhancing the Landscaping across the street in front of the residential home that was there um I didn't I didn't see it it was dark I couldn't tell if the if those if that had been installed yet it looked like it was installed a little further to the uh to the South uh in front of another another another Resident um but I'm not sure of there but if if you know there was there was Provisions for enhan that Landscaping also to provide additional shielding because they were concerned about the headlights for cars turning along those in that area so perfect um with regards to the Landscaping um the original plan we're going to go go to the next all right for for the record this is sheep A2 sorry two two of uh two of four I guess we'll Market a exhibit A3 so this is the uh landscape plan sheet 204 dated 828 2023 that was submitted as part of the application so up at the top West right now there were um 13 trees that were planted up in between the patio and the um parking spaces that and the right away line uh in that location um they consisted of uh one two four six six shade trees and seven evergreen trees of varying of five different species in that location um during construction when the electric company uh coordination with the electric company and running power to the facility um the electric company uh required an easement across the entire Frontage of old Cranberry Road that took it from the RightWay line 20 ft back to the edge of the patio and the edge of the parking stalls wanted to place their Transformer in the location up here and also to run their underground conduits in that location as a result the trees would be Lo the trees would have been located right on top of the conduits which they wouldn't have allowed in their easement um it wouldn't be able to provide power to the building um based on the uh the design that they had provided to us you know we did question it and tried to see if there was another place on site to put the the Transformer um at the time somewhere along the back or else internally somewhere um they were adamant about putting it putting it close to the where their service was running to reduce their primary um runs and exposure uh so we were the stuck kind of putting it where it's located and therefore all all those trees unfortunately had to come out in that location would have loved to put some shrubs or some other things back in there to maybe block some headlights in that location as well once again it's all within their easement and they weren't allowing us to put any kind of uh any vegetation within that that would potentially impact their service lines um it's important to note though uh that there was a requirement um for the number of trees a zoning requirement that we had for it requires 10 trees for each acre not occupied by impervious coverages on the site um previous approval uh there was we calculated 7 Acres of of non- impervious surfaces including buildings uh requiring Seven Trees to be planted on the property we had 53 originally and with removing these 13 we still have 40 trees um scattered throughout the the property that is also including and take into account future phase three when those gets plant when those get planted um when that gets constructed if if approved by the board in the future [Music] um and that's all I have and that's all the changes and proposals we're looking for tonight can you explain a little more about the Landscaping that is against the wall there is there are plantings right against the retaining wall in that same area where the lights are so what's along that wall and what was permitted do you know well I don't actually I when I drove past it tonight did not see those in the darkness I would admit I wasn't looking for them I was the impression that nothing was in in that area um if that is the case then maybe we can put some laring shrubs or so against the parking areas to put some screening in there we'll definitely reach out talk to the electric company to see if they would allow us to do that um I'm not like I said I'm not I wasn't aware that they were there uh in that location um so if if they'll yeah the only other thing I would say and and then I'll open it up to our professionals is that I I want to make sure we get the tints right as we're discussing these lights these lights are installed yes and they are on yes okay you have nothing further nothing further okay can we clarify what is being asked tonight it's not I'm not it's not clear to me what the applicant is asking for so we're we're asking for amended site plan approval for phase two um for to allow for these the lights to be installed they they were installed so the lights for approvals for the lights to be there and the approval to change the Landscaping plan that was approved and remove 13 trees because of the util P I'm not sure if it's psmg or jcpnl came through and said you can't have trees in this area and there were 13 trees there they're they're coming off of the plant but those trees are not H have not been planted correct those trees are not there just so you're clear the lights are there the lights were not on the plant and the trees are not there and they're working on getting their Co and they can't do that because they're not meeting the spec the plan one thing is there and is not there correct correct so I'm going to open this to our professionals we're going to see what you know what their feedback is and then the board will and before you do that can you just say where again the two new lights are that weren't they are on the returns of the um the fencing back towards the building um there their pedestals um it's in Midway midway between those or closer to the building they're they're mounted on those on that location okay thank you you're welome and and we can provide a a revised sheet showing the the exact location yes we will add that onto there and and I'll note any Landscaping that has been added in those locations as well um that differs from the from the plant that was approved Mr hoder yes thank you here for the board I did do review on the 26 I did a review on the 26th you can hear me now oh yes yeah we'll it's better to do that okay do swear that the testimony that you're about to give before this board is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so hope you got I do thank you per okay again my name is David hoder and I'm not lying about that and um I have a letter uh January 26 there only a couple of comments in the letter uh and um I don't really have any objection to these lights but um I actually expected some of the public to be here tonight um as objectors because of the of the lighting uh but they're not and all I would ask is if the applicant would put in um uh would would put on their plans and and if it is approved the board would would put uh in the resolution that uh houseside shields uh uh would be used if there are complaints and you could do that you don't have to Shield the entire light all the way around you can just do the sides that are since these are rectangular lights you can just do the sides that are pointing towards the the residential second thing is um that I suggested that you try to put the Landscaping somewhere else that's completely up to the board um I uh now know it's 13 six uh uh um deciduous and and and seven Evergreens um the other things that came up since you're not doing phase three uh uh tonight we'll have to have you amend the plan to take off the items on phase three that were changed mean meaning if we approve a plan and it comes back for Signature the the new phase three with the 9,000 foot or with the it says 10,000 foot building proposed proposed right one says says the old building has to be on the plan with the old parking and the old loading zones and so if that has to be changed that that should be revised and submitted uh because the um uh the plan has to be approved based on you know what has been previously approved on phase three and now what this is on phase two agree 100% yeah and then um the the last thing is you got well you got to put the two lights on and your zoning schedule needs to be revised to show the um the Redevelopment zoning scheduled also on this phase two I'm not even sure if there's even a a zoning schedule on this this map no there wasn't we we had uh the only thing that changed was the was the the trees we we add that on there nothing else in the zoning schedule had had the zoning schedule itself was not even exist it's it says P rzone that's not even a zone that we have okay okay so so if you could revise that that would be so Madam chairperson that's this is the stuff that um that I would be looking for if this application is approved and those are those are fine we agreed to make those changes okay um the question I have I understand that um you can't have Landscaping there because of the electric company but I do know and I wasn't the planner at the time but that the residents two residents particular on wall um who are sort of facing the site and facing this commercial area there was a lot of concerns about you know shielding those properties from uh headlights and that sort of thing and and and sort of light trespass and so I'm wondering what measures you could do in lie of uh providing Landscaping on that transmission easement so I I was looking at I did look at where they had like and stuff would go um and impact any of the those residents the interesting part is these parking stalls that are located there are actually facing the roadway that goes between the two homes um so any direct light that from the car is parking that straight down really are going you're not not being shown into the homes but down the the driveway or down the roadway for where they access their driveways the interesting part and what was talked about a lot at during the the original hearing when this went through was not only the stationary vehicles but the cars that are turning that are you know if there no cars parked there the car turns there will be some light that does deflect into those homes there were some the buffers that were set up there were not as as thick and and and voluptuous as as needed which is why during the original approval there were um it included um some upgrades and some some uh additional Landscaping on the the their their property essentially um or in the right away right off the right away to supplement the existing Landscaping there to provide a more a more robust screen a more a fuller screen in those locations um obviously I I I don't know off the top of my head if all that has been done yet I haven't been out to the site or haven't was not a consulted on on when it went in um I there was some stuff about coordination with the town and coordination with our landscape architect we haven't been out there to do it um I'm pretty sure they probably coordinated with the township engineer um as they're going through that if anything's missing obviously or they need to supplement to to what was approved you know that those will be installed and that will provide a more may permanent there was evergreen trees or evergreen shrubs that were being placed to add in and fill in the the sections of that the existing buffer that were missing um those areas especially during the winter months at this time so um we like I said as I mentioned to um to the the chair chair woman's comment about the Landscaping that did see see some Landscaping along the existing wall of the patio um we can reach out to uh the electric companies see if they would allow us to put some small shrubs um you know that would that would also further add some screening um to those uh parking stalls in that location to um within probably two three feet of that of that of that 204 East to see if that'd be permissible or not we put something obviously we can provide the board with any response whether positive or negative and their result so if we get if we say they get a response says no we can give it to you and say hey we we tried we did this they're not letting us do this so you have proof that you we just not just taking our word and I and I really don't have anything in mind but is there something that you can put up on top of that wall that would Shield the lights from the neighbors you know like I don't even again I don't know but just are you talking the headlights on the cars or are you talking about the lights on the patio the lights on the patio now switch to the light Mr hoer Mr hoer mentioned putting if there are complains putting a shield on the West Side facing the residence so what can you describe that a little bit um basically put a either either either a solid um me piece behind it that matches the outer uh coloring of the light fixture itself that goes on the backs side so instead of having all four glass pieces that eminate light in four directions it would then refract restrict the light going in One Direction and only have come out three glass pieces in the others it can be black it can be a blackout it can be um and a more opaque one that softens the light as well too um I would I would you know it I agree that if it it is a complaint I don't think it's I don't think the light that I saw out there today when I was on the other side look from the residence roadway did not jump out at me of being bright glaring the fixture bold but of course I don't live there and I understand that um the the light poles and stuff I my eyes were drawn to the the the larger freestanding lights as well as the lights inside the restaurant I would actually agree with you and which is something that I I've been and maybe it's a combination of the Landscaping on the la la I don't know how to say it laah side but and then something on your side because I agree I I don't think the lights are as intrusive as the lights coming from inside the restaurant the the other thing too and we talked about this um before the hearing just briefly um the obviously the lights are there for use when the outdoor patio is used um spring summer fall summer you have late you have the sun will be out there late um obviously the lights will be turned off uh at the time when the restaurant closes or the outdoor patio space ceases to function um they may close that an hour before I don't know what the the hours of operations are for it but it would be no later than the date the time the restaurant closes for people sitting out there in accordance with the ordinance or the approvals they've got um during the winter months when it's cold and you're not going to be eating outside you know that we can um look at maybe trying to turn the lights off during those times uh when the when the when the screens are are the buffers are you know leaves of drawn and thinner that would make a bigger impact during those darker times um I think your testimony was if I can Circle back just so that we're reminded I think your testimony was that the lights didn't even cast light on the sidewalk it didn't even go as far as maybe a half a foot candle correct that's even less than that about you know 02 foot candles at the at the sidewalk but that's the lighting analysis and you you put a light meter there that's what you're gonna that's what you're going to read but when you we all know you can be 100 feet away looking at a light pole there's no light on the ground from that pole but when you look up and see the fixture you can see it and it's noticeable so if it is noticeable on on the patio here in those hours or so and and if we can you know want want to be good neighbors um if they you know can turn them off when it's not being used and have that ability to do so um I believe they'd be you know receptive to doing so sure especially in especially in the winter months I mean when a patio is not being used outside and does the restaurant light is it is it turn off at a certain time or is there um can you still see in it you know at midnight let's say yeah I would I would assume other than just safety lighting I think once the restaurant shut down that the lights would be off okay I mean obviously it shuts down to the public they have to clean and do their end point so it'll be on a little after you know operating hours um to do what they have to do to clean up inside but uh it's not going to be on you know till 2 three in the morning or things like that those are all I have for right now thank you do you have anything else with Landscaping not in this location I do have some concerns which I don't know if it's appropriate at this time with fa with phase two or phase I have some concerns about the Landscaping along the town homes that that you know between the the parking area in the town homes okay so I guess for the scope of this phase two we do we have that discussion do we not have that discussion my my thought is Sharon because they brought up the fact that there were 13 trees they couldn't plant if we have concerns if residents have concerns of shielding or buffering maybe given the feedback we're getting from residents we could recommend to them where those 13 trees might be planted to be the most helpful given the feedback we have is that would be appropriate is that appropriate are you amendable to that conversation yeah I I I I think you know I I I think maybe it's so I I would say if there's it's a little beyond the scope it's a little beyond the scope and I think what what what we would be amendable to is if there's other places on the property where the 13 trees can go um yes we'll you know we we'll try to figure that out I looking at looking at what we have I don't know if there is but if there is if there's if there's room to put them someplace else then well they don't they might be different types of trees true as long as it you know if it's specified you know a 30 foot Oak and you can put in a 15 foot something else yeah then you know that that would something more buffering I would go ahead and and make your suggestions and and then we'll we'll take that as part of yeah take it as a suggestion and then we'll go from there it is out of the scope but if you're happy to hear it where we'd like to work on that a little bit certainly because I know I did you know when we were you know Jump Ahead a little bit talk about turn this as well with phase three we did look um at adding some additional buffering um when we re redesign the parking lot in that location on the on along those residences property line pretty sparse the unfortunate part that we are running into and I didn't want to go too far into it was the property line runs on the back of the sidewalk so anything we planting would be on planting on the town home's property so we'd have to get agreements from them um then we have work out maintenance agreements and things like that so we didn't propose at the time because we didn't want to just throw things on their property at at that location we obviously can during during the time now we have to before we're going to be heard for that application we could certainly reach out to the neighbors there um reach out to the homeowners association talk to them and and see if they' be able to if us PL you know any any additional plantings on those trees just to to do so okay well let's let Liz finish with her suggestions and then um I know the board has concerns we you know with the uh with some complaints that we've had so we just want to make sure that we're um you know that we we've button this up as best we can Liz well I don't want want to say specif I mean I will say I think right along those homes as particularly the one I think in the it's sort of the western the southwestern portion they really seem to be opening practically right onto your parking lot I understand the the constraints but there seems there must be something that could be done seems to be ample grass this opening are you talking about this area up on on this side up here yes that that area particularly but I actually also and this probably go the lower one yeah but yeah know where your phase three is is probably also right for additional screening yeah and I I think like I like I said before um we're definitely amendable to working with with with the board um and the boards professionals to figure out a way to change the landscaping or improve the Landscaping a bit and you know maybe change the the the type of tree that's coming out from this these 13 and and get something down a little bit further to the phase three portion okay that that's it for right now yep anyone on the board that would have additional comments to this any concerns comments Jason Dominique you don't have to just checking in with you I guess there are 10 lights that have been installed that weren't originally on the plans yeah how did that come to be I I don't know um I think when they put the um when they built the columns up there I thought it be a nice addition to put in it was tagged by the the during during inspections and discussions it was tagged by the uh Town engineer um then some conversations were had with the township on whether this would be a would it have to go back to the board for approval or would could it be done administratively or how that was happened ultimately was decided hey you need to go back to the board for an approval explain what you're doing why you're doing it um and present it and let the board votee whether or not um they're amenable to keeping those lights that were installed okay I'm actually a little bit curious the trees the 13 trees were they originally included in the plan for the purpose of screening the headlights from the neighbors the trees that were provided so as I mentioned I think six of them as I said were shade trees so they wouldn't really provide any screen to the headlights they'd be up providing screen to the parking lot pavement to you know heat island effect that kind of thing the uh evergreen trees that were scattered between them would have provided some uh buffering at points but it wasn't a full screen across the front of those areas so it wouldn't have been a continuous screen but there would have been a couple a couple Evergreens here you know 25 ft away another couple Evergreens 25 ft away another couple Evergreens scattered along that front edge and a couple of them were located up here at the corner where there are no headlights so it really the only ones that are affected the headlights were the ones that were here and there about I think about four of them maybe five four to five Evergreens here um and couple up this way so all the Evergreens that were planted were not providing a buffer essentially for the headlights of the cars um a lot of it was done to meet the ordinance requirements to make it an attractive area trying to screen the building and soften it from the views from the across the street as well um so so not only to it soften the scale of the building with the art with the the trees um but also you know provide some buffering it is also point to note there are Street trees located along the whole Frontage that that are remaining that we were just supplementing on top of that too so um they're they're still growing unfortunately they're not as tall as as they will be in the future okay so so your your testimony is that that the removal of the trees is not affecting the light in any way intrusion not from the I don't believe the 10 lights that were added are understand yeah we're here for the application on that too I understand the new lights are R I don't think the trees remov is an issue um with the headlights and things like that there will be a a little um there will be a slight impact with those gaps where the evergreen trees were um I don't think it's a substantial impact like I said as I testified there were Provisions put in place to enhance the buffer across the street so if for some reason if you know we can't make it right here maybe that's an option as well to implant you know plant a couple more trees over there to beef that bumper up a little further to provide the screen so okay and this one last question sure um so the you you just mentioned that there's a spot along the sidewalk that has trees there's a spot spot between the sidewalk and the curb line right along all of old Cranberry Road that has Street trees that are that are planted and I'm assuming it's not within your Juris jurisdiction to put the trees there instead uh we'd have to get permission obviously it's a a public RightWay so the town would have to grant us permission to do so typically part of an application if there weren't there they would the board would ask us to put them in for the ordinance and we would put them in they are spaced uh across the frontage in in a um spacing based on the species there that'll allow them to grow and and be vibrant and not you know not CR um conflict with each other um yeah strict growth and canopies and things like that um I don't think I've ever I don't really ever think I've seen shrubs or or those kind of things planted in the in the public right away Along between the curb and sidewalk um and I wouldn't recommend it probably my Landscape Architects would would scream at me if I Ed it I don't think the town would want that either or the county in those locations you know not a county road but the township would want that because it does restrict access you know from this emergencies too people be running through shrubs to get to the uh you know to the building if they park the cars out there emergency vehicles that kind of thing that's all I have no no except that um I think we should have some additional Clarity or just or than just yeah yeah yeah yes we'll eventually put trees on the laah Hagerty side for Four Seasons because that is going to become an issue and I don't think it should be something that's just kind of you know assumed I think we need to know that that's happening because those 10 lights are lovely I you know I think that they make perfect sense I'm kind of surprised they weren't playing in the first place so you know but I think the bigger issue is all the additional light and it's pretty bright over there so I I would be prepared for people to be if they're not already complaining so I just want to make sure that it's something that's officially you know part of what we're talking about so I I will tell you on that note that was a condition of the original approval back in 2014 so if that has not been satisfied that's still a condition that has to be satisfied um you know as part of the whole development we had aary Final in town homes and there was a preliminary on this portion and that was one of the things that was testified to and presented and put in the resolution that this the buffers would be supplemented so if they're not done adequately it goes back to that resolution and that approval so it's already covered just has to be enforced you can reiterate you can reiterate again um who would be uh who would who would uh be able to confirm whether or not that's been done is that a Tom Decker Tom Decker insps and confirm that okay only that I do share Liz's concern about the trees along the town homes and I understand it's not within the purview of what we're doing tonight but it's pretty sparse over there it's you know and having been involved in helping people with those properties when they were buying them they were given the impression that it was going to be very well landscaped and you wouldn't even see the retail so um I think that's something that I'm glad that was raised that point I had a hard time figuring out this application because I couldn't tell what was approved before what was being changed you know so nothing was bubbled so I think David's comment of represent that the plan should represent I guess basically an asil is what you're saying uh phase two before it's closed out any c ofos is closed out um I would hope as part of that c ofo closed out is getting the front finished the grass was never finished in the front it's it's been a mess out in front of the building for a long time and I know you have phase three coming but as an architect I see phase three talked about forever and never happen so I want to make sure that it's phase two is totally finished before the co is granted and that's closed out um you must be anxious ium because you're here tonight rather than talking about the next one you're anxious to do that so I have a little bit of um just concern that we don't not being able to understand what's changed and what's not changed because nothing's bubbled so there's no new P1 lights yeah the so we didn't they were not adding you know the building M lights that were approved the no changes the the parking lot lighting that was approved no changes the only changes to the lighting are these 10 post-mounted pictures on on the walls um to my knowledge everything else you know was was has been constructed per plan um terms of the parking stalls Drive aisles um you know the the detention systems down the center those everything that area is an aspect um yes just ask our you know if this is approved I'd ask our Engineers to double check your final as builts that they match whatever was approved previously it wasn't part of that any of that um and that it's totally finished it's not you know depending on phase three that the front lawn is seated done smooth finished looking because it's been kind of a mess for a while um the um it is bright it's bright when you ride down Main Street the 400 Kelvin that's more of a bright white light whereas an incandescent is is about a 2800 Kelvin 3,000 kin so as you ride down Main Street you know and because all the light sources are directly exposed as compared to concealed it's it hits you which it's unfortunately but it is what it is um I think luckily if there is a complaint with those S1 fixtures you can always change the bulb you're currently specifying a 4,000 Kelvin bulb for those you know I think reducing I'm not crazy about Miss mixing them because if you when you put a 3,000 light with you have a white light and then you have a yellow light and it looks horrible too and there's there's other circumstances that town too um but if there is a complaint I think cutting down the W the U the coloring and and the wattage I take walks I've never noticed them on so I've never noticed an issue I didn't know this was what the application was about so unfortunately I didn't get to go look at it tonight you know before the meeting while it was dark um but whenever I have walked by there they've been off so I think part if we do approve it I think part of any approvals should be that the lights are off whenever the Pao is not being used just for respect out for the neighbors and and that that's not an issue thank you Bill Wayne I agree pretty much what everybody has said I agree with everybody um what has been said so far but I just I do have four points that I'll I'll go over and if it sounds redundant then um then it's because he doesn't have an eras because I don't have an eraser I got a pen that's not working and it's driving me crazy um so uh I I know um Mr hoder talked about shielding I would like to see shielding on those lights I I I would feel better shielding was on those lights um it it just I I I think for for me personally I think since they're you know they're in there already I would like to see shielding on those lights um I would like to have somebody from your group follow up and ensure that the Landscaping That was supposed to be put across the street for the for season development has either been done or will be done you know in the spring in the spring so so please have somebody and that should be a you know a final with the with the with the um Co that that's been done um regarding the Landscaping as I had mentioned if we could you know we're very kind of prickly about Landscaping on on properties and put a lot of effort into um you build a nice building but we want you to hide it so you know for all practical purposes so so we're kind of sticky about Landscaping so I think the 13 tree is not a suggestion but more of a request that you find some other places to put those trees and if they could be used to block between that the parking lot and the town homes that that's done and then a followup with that I agree with Mr gings about the fact that the front of the building the Landscaping needs to be finalized there because it looks like you have a you know you have a nice building in the back you know the stores are now starting to open people are going in but then you look you're driving out Old Trenton Road and it looks like it doesn't look like anything so I mean it doesn't look like the building's even open because it looks like it's not finished out there so I think I think for your own benefit and and everything I think it would be good to to complete that out in front um and that is it that's it for y right so we're fortunate to have our Township committee here so they get to hear complaints we just get to prepare the applications um but uh Iman Mike anything else that you would like to add for this phase to um section I was just gonna ditto Wayne one two three four those are good summary thank you thank you um and the easy part about going last is get everything's already been talked about but just to lift the complaints so um I did have a couple of conversations with residents that we're talking about how sometimes when uh people intend to go to businesses they miss they M turn and they end up in where the residency is and so they go all the way down and end up in this little parking lot and they look at the at thec at the right at that empty lot in front of them with no vegetation and they drive right over it they drive right so they don't have to drive all the way back and so it would be really nice to maybe replace those 13 trees or more in some of that area that could uh prevent that from happening we do have to be careful because that was a requirement of the Fire Department emergency service to provide emergency access between the two properties so they didn't have to do the exact same thing these that these people wanted to go to the commercial piece are doing right now um the only thing that we maybe can look into is maybe putting some kind of a fence or a gate a chain link across it or something like that right um that would restrict people from going through it even if it's a plastic chain that's not locked that you could just case of a fire yeah and and I I agree you know that I I don't think that that's an issue we can we can figure out some sort of separation and make sure that doesn't happen and ensure that we're also complying with the fire department yeah I would talk to the fire company on that just to make sure you can do something simple like that and then I don't see one not but as long as it's not locked or anything like that I will say we originally the original plan had full roads going through so they were interconnected and the board did not like that they wanted it separated they didn't want cars driving through the residential and and cutting through the early thing and then cutting through all the way to get there if it was backed up at the uh at the intersection or something so or even getting out more more more importantly so and the residents are very happy with that decision because the amount of children that sit and park and play right there it's it's um you know it was was a great advantage to not do that thank you and I guess the only thing that I just just thinking about um for this just a separation between this application and and the phase three application like we're doing for the trees I think the suggestion would be more appropriate for the phase three portion of it because we're just dealing with the the lights now and the and the Landscaping so I don't I don't want to there to be confusion about it um but I I think it's I think it's a great suggestion and it's something that we can get into maybe phase three I I I disagree because I think if I think if you're if this approval is to take out 13 trees I think condition of this approval is putting the 13 trees somewhere regardless of what happens with phase three you're asking for approval to remove 13 trees correct and I I I guess so what we could do is not Grant the approval and say plant the 13 trees within the property given your boundaries we could adjust the way that we put our recommendation right phrase three and and that that's that's what we were talking and staying within staying within the phase right right and and that's what we were talking about before was when we were talking about replacing the trees or talking about figuring out where the trees were going to be before we we had talked about the two separate plans and that there was a suggestion for the next for the next plan that we come in with with fa because right now we're just talking about the phase two right but you're talking about phase two and you're asking for a um approval to remove 13 trees so what we could do is not approve that sure but hold please Dave hoder yeah absolutely follow it yeah sure the um the plan should show that easement the jcpnl or P easement uh because there might be a way to squeeze I mean does the uh does does the easement run right up to the back of the curb or is there a little room it runs 20 feet wide from the property line to the back of the curb and to the edge of the patio and then it actually comes in and wraps around where the Transformer is into that landscaped area there um along the whole front edge of the property is that the dash line that's on the plan now yes that is okay if you could label it but there may be some opportunity to put some trees in on the center Island uh they may be above um storm water which your linescape architect probably won't like but the trees will love it because it's more water um so that might be a location and that would also buffer the building without going onto the home Homeowner Association property and again those trees maybe not in the original list the trees that you wanted that you were supposed to plant but if you can we can come up with agreeable substitutes sha tree commission has a list yep and and again if it's not a 30 foot oak tree but a 15 foot whatever um you know I think I think the board would be fine with that as long that's correct that you could substitute something smaller that'll fit better in a smaller space right I do have a quick question regarding uh the planning of trees on the uh townhouse side uh you said that you could not plant them along the property line but the entire plan shows me trees that are on the left hand side of that property line all all those trees were um a function of the original plan approval back in 2014 when we had a preliminary approval for this whole development and all those trees the property line runs right down the back of the sidewalk that's adjacent to the parking and Carri straight down so those trees the only place they could go was on the the residential piece but nobody lived there yet it was owned by the developer as he was building it and developing it he got the approval for it and we carried that forward when we did the amended phase two for this and split into phase two and three we put everything in for the original approval in 2014 developer in the the townhous side um has completed all the town homes okay as far as I know it's now I believe under the an association you know he does not own the property anymore he would have we would have we're we have to get their permission to plant on their property and then becomes also maintenance maintenance agreements and things like that they're putting more maintenance upon the homeowners association than they're right now which you know so there's there's it's an interesting it's an interesting dilemma no we we cannot ask you to plant trees on property that is not yours and it sounds like that's a Miss on our part with the developer um but are do do those exist those trees they should be planted they should have been planted or as part of this development so if they're not in that's that's a requirement for the appr from the developer that's on us so that was a that was on the 2014 approval and then reapproved on 2018 when we came in for this the commercial piece for the final for phase two if they're not in they should be put in I'll agree with you okay anyone else I didn't think that there would be an issue with approaching the HOA and seeing if that they' accept additional screening it is not the responsibility of this developer to do something that the other developer didn't do we can always check in and make sure but if it's on the other property we can't hold I do understand that I do you can't you can't develop somebody else's property and I wish so I don't know whose responsibility it was if it was the developer for the townhouse or he or he passed you know I've already shot a look to Shar we will definitely find out but for the purpose of this application I think the important thing um that uh takeaways that we have is we are so happy to have at the development as far as it is we are glad to see that there are businesses that have come in um and seem to be taking uh ground seem to be getting some traction I see the parking lot more more and more full uh depending on whether the day is sunny or not um so I'm I'm really glad that it's it's starting to come together this has been a long arduous process by the planning board by the township committee um and it has taken it has taken a lot of work uh and a lot of time I do not want to be the board that spikes the ball on the five yard line so we really want to make sure that this finishes nicely um we are as you can hear from this evening big Believers of buffers big Believers of screening I am the resident at the table that sits closest to this property I have Evergreens between my front door and this property those lights don't bother me at all the lights on the um patio I think look very appropriate um the lights on the side of the building are much more egregious the lights on the side I think cast a very warm and welcoming uh patio um um Ambiance um Tony's on the other end I I would love to see Tony also have lighting so he can have outdoor uh patio service so I think the lights that were chosen have the right uh down lighting I don't think they cast onto the sidewalk from what I've seen um and again I'm pretty intimate with it I drive by it a lot um you know can't get out the door without it uh so so I really like it and I like what's happening but I do agree with what this board is saying it it isn't finished it isn't finished the way it was designed to be finished um and it really needs that Landscaping off um and we are we're we couldn't be more serious ious about that um so wherever those trees are going to go we'll figure it out whatever's happening on that line we'll figure it out but more needs to be done and we're going to expect more uh so just prepare yourself when you come for phase three because we will have these conversations so this was almost like a a brevity of a DRC meeting just to give you the feedback that our professionals are seeing and that uh we are seeing so um we'll look for that uh um um the we we have to decide about these 13 trees we can't move this whether or not you are we're going to approve uh the omission of the trees because I I would not I I I I just can't forgive you for that you know what I mean like I I can't I I mean I wouldn't vote to just say Okay psng said you don't have to do it so you don't have to do it no I I I can't I I just can't with a clear conscience knowing how thin it is over there 13 trees is something I really like the engineering idea of putting some kind of Shrubbery boxwood something in front of the parking spaces that might just deflect a little bit of the turning radius lights uh for the people over in Four Seasons something like that might be a doable and we might be able to trade off four shrubs for one tree I don't know but if if you can work with our you know uh with our planner and just come up with something that's you know that's amenable but as it stands right now I couldn't pass the approval for the 13 trees I think the lights look great I don't have any problem with the lights I think they're a great addition don't know why they weren't there in the first place but for the trees I could I could make an amendment to the recommendation that the trees are replanted but I don't want all the trees planted in a circle so I would think that I would be a minable to passing uh phase two with substitute with with the 13 trees being relocated per the uh planner's approval or something along those lines if if that's an acceptable no and and and that's what I was saying before is that we can we can find spaces on the rest of the property for the thir for those 13 trees and we can work to to figure out something along the the the those four parking spaces of old Cranberry Road if we can get it in we have to find out if we can get in for PSG I I wasn't saying that we weren't going to do that what what all I was saying is just for jurisdictional purposes um whether it's phase two or whether it's phase three um you could put a condition maybe in the in the approval for this that you know door during our phase three we we would find the spaces for the no because because this evening you're asking us to approve the the um boy how do I say this you're asking us to approve you not putting in 13 trees and and I I would advise this board not to approve that so we either need to reposition the um the question we either need to reposition your your recommendation but but I I I mean if we left it the way it is I I would advise this board not to accept phase two as is because that's the way it's presented correct it's presented as accepting the lack of 13 trees do you mind do you mind my client I'm gonna let our lawyer speak first that's probably in your best to your best Advantage okay okay so um yes the re EST right now is to amend the site plan to allow removal of 13 trees that never planted which were never planted but they were shown on a plan as being going to be planted so but they weren't so now we want they want to change the plan so they no longer have to put in the 13 trees that's the question right yeah okay so I I I understand the assignment correct okay you do absolutely introduce yourself say who you are and uh Sharon does he have to be sworn in if he's going to speak want to your name for the record yes my name is Ay L and I'm a partner in this project in Commerce uh cranberry Commons LLC yes okay you want to spell your name yeah o fi R and last name is h i l l l h i l okay I want to thank you very much do you swear that the testimony that you're about to give before this spard is the truth nothing but the truth so I do okay I do all right and and I want to thank you all very much for you know car and and wanted to see this beautiful um space that we build and we put a lot of money in attention to make it beautiful and it's going to be beautiful that's my promise with the weather change things are going to be even more beautiful I mean we literally slowly slowly opening there is a lot of um things that we had to challenge with the covid no things that you cannot get into the uh purchase in the chain Etc I promise you those 13 trees will be PL whenever you want them later on and my suggestion is that's why I wanted to have a speech over here a little bit is that you work on phase three we're not avoiding the 13 trees we put over $10 million we're not running away from 13 trees that's a promise but you will choose later on with our planners which is the best place that will be you know feing you maybe the association will say guys please put it over here it we would like to get them over here we'll PL it them for them it's not a problem we're not running away from 13 trees promise you put it as a condition we're going to do it later on I would suggest to work whatever it suits this board the neighbors Etc to be the best place to put them so we are committed for those 13 trees so you are amenable to adding 13 trees will be as we promised from the beginning whenever you guys want them the condition of our planner and your suggestion it's going to be there we're not avoiding for those 30 we're not running away from them all right thank you make is that a condition of this approval okay that's our question yes my suggestion my suggestion I just give a suggestion phase three is coming and you're going to ask where what those 13 trees is in the bank for you guys unless you find a place now it's fine no problem Evelyn if I could just say something there's a possibility that phase three will not happen the way they wanted to because they have to go back to the township committee and get a Redevelopment plan change you may get it you may not get it if you don't get it then you're back to the old phase three okay which means that that we lose our trees if you're putting them in phase three I will commit for both trees the what is on yeah so so if I mean that's all we want we're done okay so what's on the table is to approve phase two which is the removal of 13 trees if that's all I have I can take that to a vote if you want me to no what what so what so I I agree with you yes no no I I you were I said I I I could take that to a vote which would be phase two your asking that we approve the lights that are in which look lovely um and also approve the REM the removal from the plan of 13 trees I would advise this board to decline your uh request and I would as is vote no on that I see that you're amenable to adding the trees those trees would have to be part of this phase two application but I would be happy to suggest or or possibly make a motion that as long as you would agree in this phase which means in this lifetime to put in 13 trees as approved by our planner then I would be happy to make a motion that we we accept phase two if that's not something that you would be amable to we can go home and start over so I I Liz I mean we do typically do that um working with our um allowing you to just work with our professionals um so if if that's something this board would be amenable too then maybe we could do that yes bill I totally agree with everything that you're saying I'm assuming that you're here because you want a c ofo you're not going to get that CFO until those trees are planted and you're not going to plant those until spring so why are we even talking about this and not well I guess we have to you know I'm just throwing everything out on the table well well we're here because we we need we need to have the the plans amended that the approvable amended for for the trees and for the lights C have been given already there you know there's occupying part of the right so Co though isn't it or or partial C it's not a CL project permanent I once again I'm not sure whether it's temporary also I agree with it's it's probably not permanent but it's at least there's some level of pie of certificate of occupancy that was that was granted yeah but you don't you can't close out this phas to until this work is done or approved by the board and the Landscaping is solved as part of this phase because phase three may never happen we that's how we have to look at it I know you're playing on it I know all the intentions are there but once we approve phase once we approve this phase two is done phase three may may never happen understood understood I make one point on this too the 53 trees that we had proposed included both phase two and phase three so we are banking on certain number of trees that are around the future building on phase three when it comes in to be built and that's included in those 53 I know take our issue right now is on the other end understood understood I just want I just want to point out it's not 53 just for phase two was combined for the entire property right we got it and so so could the amendment be that um the two planners work together and with the understanding that there could be [Music] um some leeway given on know the types of tree put in versus what was specified initially given would you be okay with that Madam chair that they both work out if it's supposed to be the 30 foot tree and it's a 15ot tree or something along that line as long as it's a tree and put somewhere on in there would you be happy with something like that as long as they both work that out I really like the idea of the um strawberry by uh I thought that was brilliant um and I think that could be helpful um Liz is the best we've got and if she accepts and if she accepts that's not the best this is all we got right now you're it Liz let me repa that Li is our best Liz is Liz is the one that uh Liz typically is the one that addresses our Landscaping so I think it's appropriate that you work with Liz but um if any of the board is willing to make a motion with the uh contingent that contingent that Liz work with them that uh those 13 trees are not removed but they are planted on the property per lizard approval we good with that motion Miss P you you said something earlier um you you said we may agree to to take shrubs in place of a tree uh shrubs bushes so let's say psng says you you can only do something here and it's only this tight it's only it can only be four foot that sort of thing so meaning that these 13 trees May translate into something else yes possibly possibly we're we're going to try and and squeeze a lemon and get lemonade out of this one yeah the has to reflect it's not 13 things not 13 trees for 13 trees 13 trees shrubs or bushes whatever suitable plantings to Prov screen provide screening it's like an because yeah you guys sit down for drinks one night work no because um that's that's that's my concern is if at some point you say well we've done our 13 shrugs and I said but it hasn't done any screening no yeah so I would rather it yeah it's understood the intent say that the screening is appropriate in these locations obviously the goal would be to try and get the shrubs and then the parking stalls to provide the screening that was there to try and Screen the residents on across the street um obviously if we can put shrubs in other places you know as a minimum we would try to put trees in as well you know want to put all shrubs if we can put some trees to retain some you have that whole area to the left of the exit where it's grass there's some site triangle issues on that too so to be careful unfortunately that's why wasn't planted originally because there were sight triangles that we had to maintain in that spot so that's that's the other hard thing all the exit points have to have you know clear lot of sights but there are no trees for 20 feet 50 feet I mean there's there's nothing along that line where the residents are I can see the whole side of that house when I pull in when you pull in with those parking stalls yeah the they haven't obviously installed the Landscaping that the trees that were supposed to be put in there then that were approved to go in so we we discovered that yeah so not much we can do about that but for any CFO obviously as You' been talking about get full relief of the entire site they have to you know plant whatever's but not in there as well and they you know you heard they'll going to put in what was what was approved obviously except for the the modification to that you're doing a great job all right you you and Liz work it out did you want to the shield nobody else want sh um I would like to okay if that's if you're amendable okay um we also are fine uh without the shields we think given your testimony we would agree to Mr hodder's comment that if a complaint arises where the shields are needed in the future they'll be on the plan and that can be enforced later down the road if if it if needed I know Sharon and and Robin are writing furiously but yes we will make sure that that makes it in yeah I would agree with that you know the softness of it I think is good but it becomes a nuisance if someone else moves in and they complain about it I agree you know we want be good residents and the other thing is about following up about the plantings across the street on the PO seasons part whether that's been done or not done capture that okay was there a question on whether or not it was their responsibility it was their responsibility okay yes we will follow up with Mr Decker um to determine whether those that that has been installed and then uh uh do we want to make that a a contingency that we have confirmation on that yeah for that's what exactly are those plantings across the street are they part of phase two they were they were in the two they were in the original 2014 approval they were restated in the 2018 approval I was reading that as you were talking F see if there was anything on the Landscaping that said some things yeah um it does reiterate the the requirement of planting you know the additional supplemental planning in this area right here in this area here and other areas along the uh old Cranberry Road at the residence point there were exhibits at the 2014 hearing that showed locations for that that are on record so so those are that's similar to the tree line by the townhouse is its unfinished that the de that was the developer who built the the townhous is responsibility like I said I don't know if that was true you might have transferred over basically yeah if it's not installed it has to be installed as part of the approval right you know this approval is the 2018 approval for the final previously like if we missed out on getting the trees planted there we don't want to miss out on getting the sh we didn't miss out on anything we'll find out who who the guilty is yeah we'll be punished sely okay so let's think about how to put forward this motion and let's not forget including um mention of the light lights in the motion because now we're so wrapped up in landscaping and phase 237 um don't forget the lights okay okay well there there are going to be conditions that Dave mentioned at the beginning regarding changes to the plans um to reflect the proper zoning right and then um you had a couple of other items there too um and and change the plans back to their previous right for phase three so that it don't show a new approved phase three right on these plans because it's not approved right and then um the sorry the soning schedule the lights are supposed to come off patio lights would come off when the patio is not in use Y correct they'd be shut off then not when the patio is not in use when the uh assoc when the connected business is no long is closed you don't it it they may be on and no one may be on the patio but if the business is open they can be on it's just they won't be on all night long you're GNA leave them on all win okay all right um well depends paying the bill okay and I think that's it regarding the lighting then right yes there's no because you're not requiring the shielding anymore unless the recommendation in the well Shing if there is there is a complaint shielding would be the next specified and we'll put we'll put a note it be done by the town engineer zoning officer whatever and we will put a note on the plan say the same staying the same and that I guess the the township will re allow um the removal of the 13 trees from their present location right but they've got there's got they've got to be um there's got to be substitution Elsewhere on the property uh with suitable shrubs bushes um that plantings that will provide screening to the uh residents across the stre plantings for screening um as agreeable by I wouldn't specify what it is I would just say suitable screening suitable plantings for screening screening that just gives you more room and I would say it's not as important across the street as across the parking lot right yeah it's wherever you guys want to put it on on the plan 13 is separate from the ones across the street correct correct correct formulating motion it's not a straight substitute 13 for 13 no no okay so as many as necessary it's the wording it's the wording that it's providing screen it's what do we say providing screening right suitable to provide suitable to provide screening Su equivalent or something 13 deciduous trees are not going to be as good of screening as you know four 8 foot box for and then um so when are we going to have them in stall some sort of separate Banner a barrier on that emergency access area that's a condition correct that's not a condition that'll come with phase three also that is a that is a fire department um uh access so I am not sure that I don't think we can put it as a condition I would think if you can if if it could be done now and you can talk with the fire company about that but that's one I would definitely have on phase three I would definitely have that like on and done by phase three that would be a that would be a plus I just that's incentive for timing but I wouldn't make it I don't think we can make it a condition of this I just that's think that's one the the owner of this property should want to do as a normal of operating business if if it's if people are using that emergency space then something's wrong with the visual flow there and they should think about putting up something there I don't know I don't know if there's any signage or anything no there's nothing there's nothing that says do not and maybe the fire company would have a I don't think it's a condition of this but I think it's just something the owner of this property should be doing as course their normal business well it sounded to me that the issue was more on the residential side of field cars coming through there and then driving that way so if you put the gate on our side they're they still driving up and they're backing out so you want to stop them on the residential side first probably on both sides probably makes a sense but yeah it sounds like it is coming residential in correct that's what I heard not out okay yeah how going back to how about the Landscaping in the front of the building needs to be cleaned up and finished was that a condition that's was part of the plan any make sure it's been done how how about you know would you can you just reference the previous approval and say all conditions of previous approval remain in in effect yeah I I will say that that's good I like that did that last time right any want the JCP EAS meant to be shown on the plan pscg just it's already already but it be laed labeled okay PSC and G do we want them to go back to the psng to ask yes if um plantings could be placed at the edge of yes it would be good to know be good to know anyway that's part of the buffer and the coordination so bill gettings was there a request that you had about marking the changes or putting said bubbles on want something that changed and not that we're not approving other things than what we're approving because something changed on the plan and we're not aware of it then we're only proving what we're talking about correct correct just just one I wanted to corroborate what you said which there are plantings along the base of the patio between the patio and old Cranberry Road they are they are sparse they are raded dendrons they are sparse right but there are plantings there I'm just wondering if you would want to require there to be some other type of planting I would go I would go back to see what's on on the plan okay I don't think we typically approve rodendan um that was a surprise to me but if we just if you just wouldn't mind you two working together see what the Plan called for we're usually pretty deliberate about what we asked for along those areas so let's just see what that see what that there was the it was a sloping law with the trees and the location oh so you created that yes the wall put up the flat that area to create a more you know S Spring you can so you can sh it up a little bit real quick is that yeah that's that's why we had the discussion about the plantings on the on on the parking to see if I could ask for if they they was allowed once you already have plan let's make sure it's make sure it's allowed still it'd be different types of plannings you Ro Dums are very shallow very you know sparse they're not really you know intrusive you put a a shrub that's going to stay there more longer that's going to have a bigger for about six weeks pretty so Okay we okay I guess so y all right Robin you good okay um is it okay if I make the motion are you guys okay with that I shouldn't make the motion yeah usually the chair doesn't make the motion I know that's why I'm like does anybody kind of describe it and not actually make the motion but I do need somebody to make the motion so Wayne you want you want to go over it again or we got it okay okay I'll make the motion to approve phase two for this project as amended I'll second all right roll call Miss Anderson yes Miss elbadawi yes Mr fron yes Mr Giddings yes Miss Jones yes Mr milenberg yes Mr Whitman yes and Miss Bond yes thank you motion passed thank you very much you are very [Laughter] welcome I was there [Music] today thank you thank you very much welcome bye bye byebye um so a couple of old new business uh items uh number one on under old new business uh we want we need to formally appoint uh a uh DRC alternate um and I would uh I did speak to Wayne so Wayne will be the DRC alternate if Bill or I cannot make a DRC meeting uh Wayne has agreed to accept that uh appointment um also um we were going to follow up on anything from storm water management so do you have anything for us on that Sharon okay I um had research searched um different municipalities ordinances to see what they did with respect to the coefficient um language and whether they uh with respect to the storm water and I also had reached out to the um Watershed Institute and found out just today that the reason that no one else has the changes that are in the Watershed institute's model ordinance is because they're brand new they just came out so what what um we were talking about wait didn't weren didn't they have to be done like when you say that what do you mean the water isn't isn't a minicipal okay they had no time right they at the oh now I heard what you said okay yeah at the time that the municipalities were all amending their storm water management the water set Institute um you know had uh had some suggested changes that they worked with environmental commissions of various municipalities to which to make give the or uh make the storm water ordinance um give more teeth to the municipalities um but so that's what they did they they had suggested language and um but at the time they had not talked about the section with respect to looking at the how looking at how the site existed for the last five years you know prior to time of application and and that was in the states um States model ordinance so since since then the Watershed Association Institute I should say has come up with language to just take that out you know and and um they also because they realized that there was a um kind of a disconnect with putting the def definition of Redevelopment in the ordinance and then coming back and saying oh um you know we'll look back at you know if you if your cover has been in existence for five years or prior then you don't have to apply those standards you know so now they're they've come back with a brand new ordinance that just says that there's a presumption that the s's in good hydrologic condition as if there was never any impervious cover there and I had said to the um director that that you know our our Township might be interested in some kind of you know halfway point something a modification so I sent off a um and I didn't really have time to go through the whole thing and probably better if did actually anyway but there were some other ideas that they had one was to just not use the five-year look back at all to do what they you know suggested which is just consider any impervious cover that you've got as if it was clean never never developed you know um or there were some other there were some other suggestions um like uh adopting an on-site retention standards for all site um I'm not sure what that you know would mean with respect to all engineering but um another would be to presume the site is Forest in good condition and then to pick a different cover type with higher curves so maybe it's Meadow continuous grass which has a bit higher curve number so you know you know these are say was gonna be like to the current standard pardon me the compromise was going to be to bring it to the current standard yeah yeah that as an option or no no that's that is what they would say you know and treat everything as if it had never been developed before develop the impervious cover levels to what is currently required by law right rather than being grandfathered in for what it was existing five years ago well I think that's what they were they were suggesting we do right because that wouldn't be the board and and and and the township committee have to decide whether they want to put these restrictions in good night whether they want to put these restrictions in on Redevelopment projects right um I am both ways on it because in some ways you want to have people that are coming in taking old crappy buildings and crappy sites and making them better and if you restrict it too much those developers will go away and and we have that already happening on two properties uh in the area uh or or keep the um you know the the Good Woods uh function of having having to create that much bigger detention basins um with what's in the Redevelopment part of the ordinance you know the Redevelopment definition area of the or ordinance so really you got to decide what you want to do with redevelopers First Once you know that if you want to be better to them fine if you don't want to be better to them fine uh and then you can write the ordinance based on that now he did say that the DS going to be proposing additional changes to the rules at some point which will probably uh include Redevelopment standards so maybe they'll end up doing this anyway you know in a couple of months or so um I don't know so it's something that you could look at there's a there was also going to be a um webinar on the um 6th of February if anyone you know wants to look into that and see what they have with respect to um uh suggestions about what we do but um you know I mean at least from The Watershed they're encouraging towns to do as much as possible to enhance storm water management and I know that the town wanted to do that too right so well that's that's what I'm confused about I mean why would we not I don't care what kind of project it is if it's if it's already there or not there why wouldn't we want to try to come as close to current standards right and if a project that is going to be redeveloped meets 70% of those standards and they can come up to 100% of the new standards why wouldn't we ask them to do that and give them credit for maybe the 70% that they already meet but not to say well you only have to do 70% bag the other 30% I I wouldn't I couldn't agree with that the curent the current standards don't have the Good Woods uh caveat in there we do and so does the water Institute but but the D recommended standards don't have it in there so we're actually above the standards now already well can we be yeah okay the DP will always approve something that's more difficult don't but we had we had a we had a kind of conflict we had a kind of a a conflict because we we now have a conflict but what I'm talking about is the part of the on the Redevelopment definition we look at good all pavement ET sidewalk and conrete has to be good Woods there's plenty of I mean the 7030 that's a that's a great condition I don't think we're dealing with that a lot of times with the Redevelopment especially the stuff coming out from the early 80s and prior those were paved out they just paved and they planted a couple trees and felt great about no detention basins hard no detention Bas and if they are there they weren't maintained it was kind of like where do we move this water so we can get people to park here right you know they weren't very concerned about it not connecting to our facilities at the time uh or flooding our roads or they weren't concerned about their neighbors I push it over on my neighbor's property I think Redevelopment should be good wood I think that's the best way to go uh treat every property like it was bow and and make them develop to the current standard um so what you well no you can't say that it's not the current standard it's better than the current standard well right because the current standard is what all the rest of storm to new storm water rule treat it like there's nothing there meet the new rules and if you do want to do that then you should recommend to the committee to take out the part of the um calculation section which then allows you to look at the conditions if their engineer says it meets the same conditions as they were for the past five years yeah the five years is so if you take that out then you're Backwoods you're back to Good Woods you know and that's what the Watershed Institute was right can we get out of this Purgatory a little bit we we have that we have a mechanism for this we have a zoning committee which is which has not been has not met yet but that is the kind of committee that would work these issues it's it would be Evelyn myself somebody from the EC and and I think a member from the zoning board four people that can sit down and actually do this kind of work so yeah that that's fine but I I just want to hear what Sharon's uh Yeah final words are and what her recommendation is and what she's discover are they recommendation to this board or what are the recommendations it's just her discoveries Mike what she's what she's found out what I had found was the reason that you know one of the questions was why is there this um uh you know difference between the two ordinances sections and it's and the reason was because at the time that the town's ordinance was being reviewed there was nobody looked at you know I guess the voter said didn't look at the the uh definitions were coefficients so now that they they have and they're coming back and saying okay you know let's take that out and clear up this um you know this conflict so I'm I'm letting you know that that's what it was it wasn't anything cranberry did where cranberry did everything that anyone was doing at the time and you did adopt enhanced standards um I looked around I you know at other municipal we did the same thing that everybody else you know some people some some towns just went ahead with the state model ordinance and they didn't make any changes to it you know but cranberry did I mean it sounds like you worked with this Watershed Institute at the time so that's what was going on at the time now we've got some enhanced language since then and you could you know form a subcommittee or if you got a subcommittee ready work on doing that um or in this uh p pizaro uh said they're happy to work with the town uh on other you know options too as well but then did you say that they might be addressing it anyway they might be addressing it anyway because and who are they D okay D according to pizaro said is that they're gonna they're expecting okay they're expecting that the additional changes to storm water rules will be um proposed this year but he said hopefully so you know when is it goingon to happen well no they they have been changing their rules pretty much every year okay because I've been going to seminars yeah yes when they change for flood plane regulations that kind of stuff right yeah so right but if we do what Jason just suggested then that that to me makes it simple actually I he's saying there's a mechanism for that but we as a board have to decide we have to decide if we want to move forward with that if we want to watch the D and see if they're moving forward they could do the work for us um and we you can go ahead and be proactive and go ahead and start you know working on it so the the webinar sorry the webinar on February 6 is that a d webinar it's a sustainable [Music] Jersey and what would that give us on that it's supposed to be giving you some this discussion is regard ing uh enhanced storm water management and apparently you could get sustainable Jersey points the town cares about that for adopting enh enhancements so I don't have all the details about it at time I could find out you know and and just let me know who I should uh notify about that because I'm not sure he wants to be part of it but I'll get back in touch with him if you'd like as far as D putting out additional Redevelopment standards it this you know storm water ordinance uh the new storm water rules took a while and then they had to pull them back and then they put them out a year later and so the Redevelopment why that wasn't part of this standard everybody knows that Redevelopment is an issue Mak you wonder just how quickly they're going to get that out there and we still only have until July two uh put in our own ordinance or default to the state standard ordinance uh for storm water so July be here pretty quickly okay well then that puts a different uh timeline on it so so we we have to either meet or exceed the state standards the state standards and right now we exceed the for well we don't because we have the conflict that's that's what I brought up and and and any developer that comes in now will take advantage of that conflict well until our ordinances are changed so if we go back back to what Jason said and we go to if somebody comes in for redevelopment and we got to look at the property as if nothing's on it is that what is that you won't be able to do that right now because you have a provision in your ordinance that says only if we adopt the modif well if we mod what we're proposing is what you said because I agree with what you said is that if we're going to change this that we change it to did a watershed standard right that it's it's like you're building on a blank piece of paper and you got to come up to the current standards that language because I do agree with you I mean you look at all over the whole state you see the the messes and the towns look at Manville look at Bound Brook all these towns are built in you know Wayne and all these towns where development was built in flood planes and and no no retention basins or you know just shoddy work everywhere so so would we be moving towards modifying according to the Watershed standard is that what we would be looking to do that would be my suggestion okay if we do that um we take out that language then does it default to the state standards no take out but I mean so we take that out right and that section says you have to go as if it's good Woods right then then it's higher than the state standards it's higher than the state standards so a redeveloper comes in would have to follow the higher rules okay right now that's not the case right so I mean I would think that if if this board wants to change something you you direct either Robin or or Sharon to write a letter to the mayor and counsel this is what we believe this is what we think should be changed well we have a zoning committee and yeah you could do that but this board could do that too right well zoning committee rights ordinances it's got to go to the township committee and then come to us for a review and then back to the township committee so as Mike fronte would say we have a path for that so let's go all right and by default if any developer does come in with our new rules and wants to ask for a variance or something we could always entertain it we don't have to approve it but we can entertain it based on the situation so it's better that we're given that flexibility to entertain something in the future versus we we have to do it so this takes a couple of months even if we rewrote it in you know today it has to go to the township it could be really pretty simple I think okay all right we have we have we have some language right here from all right um's Shar absolutely Shar we could even do that uh we we could even do a zoom on that but yeah so let's do that let's get this Rewritten we'll get it back to the township committee before when's your next meeting 12 is our next meeting we're we can do that okay but we then have about the second one in February yeah all right because it doesn't matter about the 12th because you can't come to us until March anyway so we'll get it to you for the end of February this is ambitious but I think we can do it the end of February it'll come urr in between and then first March adopt a cont committee ordinance done look at us okay we know the path that wasas important so Sharon Mike is chair of the zoning committee so he'll connect with you and then he'll call a meeting and appoint the people he needs on that committee and we get it done committee approves it do we want to look at it first or talk about you will you'll have a consistency review okay you'll get it ahead of time and you'll have on okay all right and then we'll have a zoning someone from zoning and uh yeah and then you'll get it uh in your packet right uh for consistency review okay and I believe for consistency review you can make non-s Subs changes that right as long as there yeah okay yes so we good with that happy yes okay all right um that takes care of uh that and um would anybody like to make a motion to adjourn so move second second all in favor I that's right