##VIDEO ID:3ZtA5HdbSqE## for for e for e e e e for for for for for for e they get super hot I'm like I sit on my back but I'm like I can't even use this yep is your Internet working there okay great seems to be just need to reconnect okay good evening everybody uh we're here for our uh town of danver's planning board meeting uh today is Tuesday November 26 2024 we're here at the Danver Senior Center um so I'm here my name is Lewis George I'm the chair I'm here with uh uh to my left is Jean hartnet who's our clerk uh to her left is Mike dulis to my right is Jim Sears and Tim spittle uh and uh Josh mors from town staff is here as well so um why don't we begin with our first agenda item is um uh Maple Square 128 Maple Street it's a sign package presentation to the planning board uh which is a condition of the site plan decision and so do we have someone here and you come to the podium and uh introduce yourself and uh you can give your presentation Gary buuck with a Metro sign could you could you speak up and Gary bulu with Metro sign and Awning we uh we're working with the uh Construction Company opich and a15 the developer um for this property um and we are building the sign cabinets uh I think there's a total of five of them at different entrances uh we would just be fabricating the uh Cabinets To Go over various entrances and right now they would just be blank faces white polycarb faces uh they're still leasing so they're not even sure who will be going in there uh the developer was also requested doing uh black awnings versus I think initially they were red but now they'd like to do black so seeking approval for this okay got it okay and that's basically it okay um before we come back to the to the board with any uh questions uh just asking staff uh Josh can you give just a little bit of an introduction in terms of what this you know sort of where this came about CU I think this was a this was a condition from the site plan decision right so I'll read the condition um it was one of the administrative conditions what um from the project when was originally approved in um May or June of 2022 um and the condition reads the applicant and a property owner shall present the signed package of the project to the planning board prior to installation so um that's what's before us tonight um now you mentioned something about an awning as well so what's like awning color yep so that's uh that's shown on the plans okay I have large prints as well if you'd like but they're shown here the black awnings M now is there a I know there was a condition in terms of the original approval in terms of that there' be awnings but is there there wasn't any with respect to color was there no um and there wasn't a condition of regarding the awnings either but um I thought that was I thought that was added to the um okay but I think but as um the the property owners developers earlier in the week mentioned that they would be they are interested in potentially uh changing the the original um aw in color so I said well you folks are coming to the meeting on Tuesday why don't we you know at least show the show the board um the whole thing so that's why I thought it would be beneficial just to talk about the whole facade all let one and the sign approval is that something that's typically done with that's administratively that's done with so the the planning office um one of my call actually both Brian's and the office review signage and so um what they do is they review they review when Once the sign permit is submitted to the billing department the plany office reviews the signs for zoning purposes and then we tell the building department yes it's okay yeah your nay and then um so this tonight isn't necessarily the planning board approving or just proving the signs and the awnings it's just simply the developer presenting um the signs okay the onxs and if the members of the if we have questions obviously this not a public hearing but if we have questions we can ask of course okay all right sounds good thanks for the background um turn things over to the uh board Jim do you have any any questions or comments on the curved facade above the entrance way is that what's the material that's going to surpris that uh the cabinet is actually uh aluminum it's a standard uh sign cabinet it's a basically painted black aluminum frame with white polycarb faces or lexan faces and then we'd be applying for text it would probably vinyl that we apply to the face but we still don't know what that is the text is even going to be right now okay there's not going to be any uh like bronze or brass or anything to kind of jazz it up a little the end way that that wasn't in the plan okay okay so it's just we think that's going to be a um that's the main entrance way do we think that's going to be kind of an address yeah it's probably going to be something like the name of the property address something like that we're not even sure yet okay and then the awning color did we did we State what that's going to be is that going to be black it's going to be black per these drawings uh initially it was I think a red and they they're asking if they could get black instead consistent throughout so they'll all be black they will all be black okay and that will tie nothing to the black cabinets as well and no signage on the awnings no just on the building per commercial space if correct yep will there be uh uh further signage for uh name of the building on the sides of each building that on the street if you will so you have one in the middle there and then on the other yeah we're not addressing it tonight but there are going to be banners you can see right there Banners at Each corner of the building I believe they've asked for but they're still developing the banners so they they didn't want to they just need approval for the uh the cabinets and the awnings at this point because of time frame okay all right thank you MH that's all I have okay um Tim yeah the the signs against the wall if we can go to that uh other page for a second am I understanding correctly that it's the tenant space it says that it's electrified so there's internal illumination is the whole face does light come through the whole face or how does that how should I understand the tenant yeah there's a a white Plex or polycarb face that illuminates and then you would have the text on top of that so it really depends how much you know text they have or graphics have um but it is a white illuminated face okay um question for Josh the the the section in the zoning regulations on illumination doesn't seem to talk about like it talks about backlit letters but not having exposed neon it has a bunch of very specific language but nothing about this it strikes me that lots of light coming out I mean I could imagine a a more attractive sign than just a big white box of light um how do I understand the zoning regulations with respect to internal illumination of Lights well um if they if when our off when our office reviews this when it's submitted and it doesn't when when our office reviews the signed permit if it doesn't meet the language in the zoning regulations that a gr a building permit will won't be granted unless um a variance is uh requested and granted so it would have to meet it would have to meet the the language okay that's it for me thanks okay sure je uh yeah you might not have control over this um but any idea of like the hours of the signs being on like are they individually controlled or they can be I have have to look into the regulations but there are time clocks that we can apply to the cabinets that okay you know shut off at 11: at night start up again at 6:00 in the morning something like that all right that that's helpful thank you okay uh Mike Josh just in terms of like the aesthetic kind of off Jim and um Tim's comments like do we have any comments on that just in terms of like the polycarbonate versus like a different type of sign or is that not really in our purview um once again if it if it meets the regulations That's essential you know um not necessarily design review design uh discretion okay but if it meets it then it will be granted if it doesn't then okay it doesn't Okay my my comments were just going to be it' be nice to have like a little more of a higher quality sign I actually just finished a project that Metro sign just did all the signage at recently and they did a great job and it was more like metal cutout like diecast like letters on like pins and stuff like that and it was really nice so my comments were just I I just think we could do something a little nicer than the polycarbonate but if we don't have a com if we don't have a say in that then I guess it is what it is um and then my other question might start to cut you off um not to put Craig on the spot from am15 I think he's on the call of the meeting um Greg if you want to just unmute yourself potentially just kind of comment potentially on how the signs are Gary I don't know name for the record as well um he's on now Chris was gonna be on with a 15 yeah okay yep um I wasn't sure Gary um if if if the design for the signs was driven by Metro or if it was driven by am15 or if you could kind of yeah it was initially uh developed by am15 okay and I'm just basically here to represent how we make them and um you know what's included with materials and stuff like that but I believe it has been shown own uh before um I wasn't part of the design yep um Josh is there someone in is there someone there was um Craig Craig um piffen steel um Craig if you're there and you could hear I guess if you could just kind of comment on the science he he's just muted right now that's all that's the problem okay right so he's on but he's might not be active so okay I can't unmute him or okay do you have any further questions my other comment was just is there um I know you said that there's Banner signage and stuff are you guys also doing like all the building address signage and like fire department sign like is there a total signage package that we're going to also see or we just looking at the we're just looking at the cabinets and the awnings tonight will that be part of yes we have to work with the uh Ada regulations and fire department okay thank you that's it appreciate it okay um I have couple of questions for you just in terms of the uh in terms of some of the signage now the um now I know obviously you're still in the process in terms of of of signing tenants and such so until that occurs so if the sign the signs are up um especially the white you know sort of it seems like these white signs will they be on and frankly blank until the until tenants are there or they will be sort of up but not not illuminated not you know so you're not just going to see some white light yeah I would think until they have at least and they occupy the space they wouldn't need to be illuminated okay um in terms of some of the banners as well uh and I know I see in terms of the plans it lists um you know logo here I mean is that anticipated that that would be the would that be the name of the building would that be Maple square is that going to be the uh the main tenant what would that be anticipated I think it's it's going to be the property name like Maple square and the whatever logo they have that's still being developed right now but we can certainly show you what it will be MH we just don't know right now right and so that would be intended to be a is that a a would that be a permanent sign on a banner or yes there there'll be two like there'll be an arm at the top and at the bottom the banners could be changed out in the future but I think they're looking to open up the building in the spring so the banners haven't even been really addressed yet but they would be sort of banners for the um they'd be Banners To to identify the building or they wouldn't be necessarily like you know now leasing or that sort of uh not that I know of mhm okay got it okay follow yeah please go ahead um just as was brought out I mean I think the concern is that you've got these lit white signs and you know you probably been through downtown we have a Hong Kong Restaurant MH and it's a yellow backing I'm not sure that ever goes off there's a new have you noticed it's a new sign yeah well I'm just wondering where we have this new building and what is to stop whatever new restaurant that goes in there because there's a restaurant space saying well let's put a red sign and we got a white sign over here while we have that downtown already uh and the building that has the tattoo shop and used to be Kuman is different lit signs we want to create some type of uniformity I know we don't have a design review board but you know is just give us an opportunity to kind of make something look classy and not get at least in my opinion where someone comes in and says we don't want the white backing let's make it bright yellow mhm I mean I don't know what the rest of the board thinks or the the um staff on that because I'm not sure like I said we do have guidelines you know for um Maple square and all and all the the guidelines for the newer uh zoning that we put in but I'm not sure if it goes to the level of that detail as to do we want lit signs do we not want lit signs do we want to keep them all the same color at least and or you know have some type of um Baseline to start with where uniformity of some nature right yeah I mean like if you go to Stanford Connecticut every awning is hunter green downtown every single awning has to be Hunter graen and we're not Stanford Connecticut but um you know what what do we want to what do we want to look what do we want the downtown to look like this is an opportunity to maybe work with the board's opinion and their staff to establish you know uh classy signage cuz again once the developers done done you know now you got a landlord and maybe we want to encourage someone to go in there and they' get their sign package and we don't have any requirements because it's kind of wild west right now yeah I would think uh they they could write that into their their lease basically you can only do this color um but I think as far as the regulations with the building department I don't know if that's specified right now I don't think it is either because we don't have that we used to have downtown we had downtown um board that would review what signage and stuff going downtown like for example if you put a retail one of those uh commercial spaces is retail say it was a small store or Pharmacy they would be limited as to what they could put in the glass window uh they would get one sign on the building but I don't think we have that presently yeah right correct I guess I guess what I'm not to summarize it seems like there definitely seems to be some type of some commentary from the board about maybe the development team being open to potentially some type of change with the signage you know just as a recommendation or a comment in terms of there's definitely concern about uniformity I think that's certain uniformity and even the internally lit piece I was just going to say yeah I mean the uniformity is like Baseline to me I think beyond that like just nicer signage I mean it's this new building in Damas I think it would be really nice to have some high quality sign not just a plastic back back lit I know we have it in other places so I know we can't control that but I do think if we can do something a little nicer personally I think it would just be a benefit to to a new building but sure well is there a requ is there a need for the backlit signs is there enough Lighting on the buildings to light the signs and you know do we need a backlit sign well you might have to do something externally lit U I just know that that was what was designed initially okay um so I I know the building's going up now and we we've measured the space out and so you've got it all conduit or wired for that yeah that's already been done but we're just looking for approval to go ahead with this but it could even be like an internally lit sign rather than the plastic polycarbonate and it's just a little more trct I mean you guys have done that before yeah I mean with it depends on what PH we put in the cabinet right so you know we can look at that um yeah do you want to work with staff just yeah so is that something can can the can the appli can you all work with staff to you're you're hearing the concerns that we have from today in terms of you know you know I think it's it's it's uniformity it's materials it's sort of the it's it's being having a less of a generic and more of a for lack of a better word more of a like a classy look to to the signage and is that something can you work with um uh with staff about you know in terms of to implement that certainly yeah I mean we've got the space that we need to work with so we'd like to approval to build the cabinets but then we can work with staff on what goes on the face of the sign I think the face of the sign as well as even I think what Mike was saying sort of the backing of the sign area isn't that right it's a personal opinion that I know we don't have control over but I do just think there'd be nicer ways to do this but that's just again my my feelings on so if you were going to do something you couldn't build the cabinet so that wouldn't be giving them approval but again I don't know that we have any control over that so that's up to them if they want to work with staff I think but Josh could probably comment more on that yeah I mean um so Craig from am5 who unfortunately seems like he's having just some technical difficulty with his audio um I yep sorry um Craig who who was trying to jump on the call and I think trying to comment um but his audio appears to just have be an issue um I'd be happy to meet with Craig and um the representative for Metro Gary um to kind of talk through some of these kind of items that have been brought up tonight um and maybe the applicant developer would be open to you know some some you know modifications or some of the recommendations or comments that have come from tonight and maybe we could um you know you know obviously this is a very visible project yeah uh it's a brand new you know highly visible we want it to be you know a high class you know project so I think that um you know these so they be willing to work with staff and then and then and come back to come back before the board potentially um I it's just it's hard for me to it's hard for me to say these things without am15 representative agreeing but they have been a very uh very minable like good uh we we've had a good very good relationship to this point just in terms of the operations of the day-to-day and the construction and so I think that um a conversation on the signage piece I think um would be appropriate and I think that they would be open to it without them without them having the opportunity to say yes they would definitely do that I think that they would okay yep so I guess so I guess where it stands then is the applicant you would work I guess through you know with am15 and and work with Town staff about you know addressing some of these concerns and are we looking at and then could we you know have them come back sure when would your next meeting be that December 10th okay yeah I need to straighten that out with them because we're just worried about time frame right now which yep uh I need to work out m i mean in terms of my fellow board members any thoughts in terms of that approach or that's fine yeah okay okay all right so um this is uh this is not a public hearing I do notice that we have a member of the public who has a um a question so I can as chair I can entertain a couple of questions so why don't you go to the podium yeah I see Nova samai well what's that okay what's that bill Brad street Town me remember Precinct one are cabinets the only way to identify businesses inside other there other options available for Illuminating or recognizing the business I know in some areas uh it's been directional lights not flooding the area lighting and no obviously no outside audio I've heard that before not for this but I've heard that before but I'd just be uh interested to know if there are other options for the Builder to identify the different businesses okay I'll leave that to the app I think that he indicated the answer was yes but that's the only option available no I'm saying yes that there are other there are other options okay that's what I would be concerned see a some kind of a presentation a picture perhaps of the different variants that could be used by the think what he was saying and I want to put where you can why you come up and address this his question but I think that there he indicated that there were other options but I think they're also constrained by the current construction as well yes correct there's a certain amount of space there that's already built into the building so we need to work with that you can certainly do like individual letters versus a cabinet things like that but this has all been shown preliminarily so I'm not sure where we're at at this point like what we can change um because materials have been ordered and um I need to work with that but there's other things that you can do like you had mentioned you can use other materials right and like just to confirm you could do like a Raceway with which use the same condo you have you could have a Raceway and then you could have like internally illuminated light like individual letters just would be a nicer sign than a polycarbonate right like that's you could do Halo letters baselet letters thank you appreciate it sure okay very good thank you okay do you have I'll follow up that Miss Sam has a question too my my only again Bill Brad my only concern is at this stage of the game game that the building is now talking about S is to me should have been discussed when the first when the project was first started so comments could have been made so that as a gentleman said this is what they have now what could have been developed from the beginning to identify the different businesses not this is what we're I don't want to use nasty we're stuck with this because it was now it's built and this is what we have to do as opposed to on day one this is what we'd like to build this is what we'd like to put in for signage does any anybody have any suggestions it sounds like it's a little late for that I I think in terms of this I mean I you know that this was included as a condition to the site plan review so this is this was anticipated that we would that signage would be something that would come back to us before we had the final uh you know before the things were finalized and that's why we're having this conversation as well so it's so they you know so that they will take our some of our you know our suggestions and working with Town staff again which has you know administrative review of signs to uh you know to try to address some of those concerns I know you as a board of the town is trying to do the best they can but to me is one of the your members said youd like something classy and to me it could have been developed or spoken about or put into the scheme of things from the beginning not at this stage of the building that's my concern thank you I hear what you're saying say Nova want you identify yourself and uh Nova s town meeting member Precinct one uh I'm in agreement with everyone that these are not my favorite signs um I would definitely like to see some to classer it is a brand new building which was is got all kinds of comments on it as is so let's try and pick it up especially the front um curved Frontage the fact that that's going to have the same kind of sign for the permanent like address or whatever it is seems very strange it seems like those should be individual address or something but to have a curved facade and have it be one of those white backlit signs just seems really low low end um I do want to comment that I am happy with the change in the awnings to the black instead of red that's great um I'm hoping it's a quality um fabric that doesn't fade in like a year and then look terrible um so that's it but yes if we can change these signs at all that would be great thank you great thank you very much okay anything else from our board members Josh was there anything else that was received from no okay so then I so I guess the applicant will be working with Town staff and um I will um I'll reach out to Craig and Gary um we'll probably I'll try a meeting uh the next week so as soon as possible okay and then with the idea of coming back to us sir yes that would be the the goal or right okay great okay thank you okay thanks very much okay our next uh our next agenda item is the uh and this is actually an informal uh informal review here and this is a concept plan for putam Pantry uh 255 Newbury Street and the Israel putam house at 431 Maple Street and um uh and Josh did you want to give us a quick introduction in terms of the sort of this is this is an informal presentation this is not a current present application yes so this is not a formal application which is usually you know customary um what we generally do with these meetings uh this is an informal um I think for the property owner to just receive some um thanks some feedback back just on the General on the concept that's I still think of the preliminary or moderate middle preliminary stage uh this is an official application this isn't an official no this is not an official application this is not an official application there's been no zoning you know discussed like the pro the process what the process would be for this particular project but it's just to to get sort of what we just did um and the previous item sort of commentary suggestions overall thoughts high level thoughts I think but not to speak for the team but that's what I thought this was for all right excellent well it sounds great so I'll uh the uh I guess the applicant or the where actually is not application the presenter can uh identify yourself sure I'm Eric Emerson I'm accompanied by my sister Wendy and my cousin Jamie uh so Wendy and I are have involvement in both sides of this uh which are so there's actually two commercial Apostles involved that shows as one which is the Big L but it's actually two it was subdivided uh quite a number of years ago and then the other is and those are commercially those are those are commercial pastels and they're held by a realy trust of which uh uh my father's four children which would include me the beneficiaries and the fifth beneficiary and they're all equal is the general Israel putam Homestead trust who owns the other acre ultimately the uh the trust would all revert uh to the general Israel putam Homestead trust and it will become the sole beneficiary so um my sis all three of us sit on the Board of Trustees for the general Israel plam Homestead trust as well so we thought it was appropriate to address this comprehensively uh because of the long-term objectives I mean the long-term objectives are historical um the uh you're all familiar with the house it's the oldest house in danvas uh has probably the birthplace of the most famous resident of danas and uh and so we've now um assumed responsibility for figuring out what to do with it going forward which is is uh as we can see from the problems happening in the highlands is no small challenge um and uh so you have to come up with an Adaptive reuse um the uh the house although it's sound probably needs a million dollars in restoration over the next 10 12 years uh and although there is an endowment um you know you have to come up with a way for these properties to make money otherwise they you end up with the same situation you have in the highlands they go away uh which would be a shame so we're committed to finding that way uh the uh the commercial property for the last 150 years has supported the house in one form or fashion so it was originally one parcel in the rent from putam Pantry paid for the upkeep of the house uh so it's not much different than that other than the dollar challenges of are a multiple of that now so having taken all that in we you know we have to what's the Adaptive reuse and how do we maximize it to achieve the objective which is ultimately historical and doing in a way that would be most beneficial to the town that we as a family would be proud of uh we'll be dead by then but um the someone will be alive still so uh you know we've come up with a a plan which envisions what we think might ultimately happen although it will likely happen in phases uh and so the primary use of the putam house in the property would be uh uh a centerpiece for events so that wouldn't take away from the historical aspects of it the house would have uh you know it's been kind of neglected under the Historical Society stewardship not intentionally but that's the way it ended up and we took the house back three years ago and have been working since then to figure out exactly how we're going to do this so uh we thought it would be a good idea to get in front of you folks to get you feedback to see if there's anything that concerns you um so that when we turn around and come back with what will be probably phase one of a formal application then um uh we're less likely to be surprised and you're less likely to be surprised so uh how we envision that most likely happening is that hello Mr Emerson there is a there's a point there's a pointer there's a pointer you could just just to help you out in front of uh near your microphone is a is a pointer that you could use on the podium sorry just because to make sure as you speak you want to be close to the microphone so people can at home can hear you oh okay all right great okay so what we would uh expect the first phase to be would be uh that the house itself would be used for small Gatherings likely under 50 people would be for uh you know small events uh showers that type of thing and that there'd be an outdoor space uh that would have a tent which would allow us to do larger Gatherings during the uh when the weather was favorable and if that was successful then we proceed with probably so that would be uh this area here we envisioned that we would need a small addition uh to meet some handicap requirements mostly for handicap restrooms uh to service both inside and out and if that was into company that we'd need some additional parking which would be this area and if that was successful then we'd Envision a more substantial change which would be a post and beam Barn which would house larger events probably 150 type uh that level uh there is available space in the property so we show a placeholder for an additional business don't know what it would be uh but obviously would be very sensitive to anything else we put on the property to make sure it was harmonious and compat comptible with the historic aspect of it um the property itself would be made more available to the public uh as you see we we have an interconnected we envision informational kiosks we've actually gone and sat with Richard tras to to ask for his input as to what we'd say on them uh picnic area uh which we show right here um the you know the property has not been particularly accessible for the last 20 years we'd like to make it a lot more accessible um you know early on we we basically excluded a museum as the use it's just not economically feasible but there are a lot of interesting uh architectural elements to the house and so that makes it an interesting place to have an event and there'd also be opportunities for private tours uh uh that type of thing um you know we have not had any substantial discussions with code enforcement um jimie is an architect so he gets uh he gets to do all that uh we'll probably approach that next we've had some preliminary feedback from them on some some things it's you know it's an old house so it's a challenge um and uh so that's uh we tried to put everything down here I think it's probably one of The Greener proposals you you're apt to see I think we're if we do all of this we'd be at about 40% of the of what would be allowed for coverage so uh you know highest and best use of this is not what we're presenting here that's uh you know if that's if that was our objective we'd be here a little bit different way so um that's it I'll open up to okay to your questions sounds uh nope sounds great thanks for the uh for the presentation and I'm just going to mention just at at at the outset just because you mentioned the Historical Society I I currently serve on the board of the danamas Historical Society but as you mentioned the society has not had an interest in the property for for several years now so I just want to I think it's just about three years now y I just wanted to let you know we haven't done much uh we did some mold remediation things like that but what we don't want to do is uh is do something have to redo it sure right so I think actually later on this month we're replacing one section of the of the cedar roof and then we'll do some a few things outside just to make it uh weathertight okay and then uh you know it's just really based on how fast we can move along with our plans and approvals before I go into just ask the board for their questions and it just just a general I know you said it's more phases when do you anticipate in terms of the timeline sort of the first phase to begin or you know well I mean at this point that things move fairly slowly so if we if we did a an event a year from June I think that would probably be uh pretty aggressive yeah gotcha so you know this there's uh there's some infrastructure work that has to be done to support possible future additions we want to do that all now and not be you know ripping up stuff in the future uh the current plans call for the driveway to be Cobblestone so the last thing we want to do is is have to rip that up to put in utilities okay right so we we' probably want to get to the point where we were comfortable enough to stub those in if we wanted to put in that driveway because that's you know that's not a small expense there either yeah gotta okay I'll turn it over to the the board for um for questions why don't we start with uh with Mike if you have any questions or comments or this is sort of an informal discussion yeah um a comment and a question I guess my first comment is I I think it's great that you guys are doing something historical and and with the property I'm a huge um advocate for that so support you guys on that big time my my comment I guess I had was for the proposed Barn if you did you talked about 150 people for events and stuff would you bust people in for parking or what would be the plan in that situation seems like there's probably not parking for all those people right well uh we could certainly put more parking on the property than we show here okay uh you know we're trying to maintain the flavor of this was for 300 years this was a farmhouse yeah right so uh we don't show any uh substantial parking on the putam property per se so it all be done with a cross easement with the commercial property uh and then as I mentioned ultimately the the uh 501c3 owns all the property right but that's uh that's all according to the terms of the of the realy trust thank you further for now good yeah thanks for now um Tim no questions I think this is great proposal look forward to seeing you again Jim yeah like Mike mentioned my biggest concern is if you're having a lot of events if it does become you know successful as you plan which I think it would be great I don't think you have enough parking if you're having uh activities in the barn activities in the house activities in the restaurant activities in the rear building which I'm not sure what the purpose for that is going to be the proposed building so best case scenario you've got say 100 spaces shown do we want to put some parking spaces in reserve uh with parking we've got storm water management we also I would think you would want to have all your people coming through the Newber Street entrance and not on your new Cobblestone driveway um so that's going to be a lot of people coming in a 30 foot wide access point off a kind of a busy um Confluence of um people coming off the ramp at the same time trying to turn into your spot as people are coming in you know you've got a lot of movement in that tight spot and you might have a lot of people coming in and coming out uh as the event time starts or stops so I'm just that that's a concern concern that I have um and just wondering how you would handle it you know you don't have to answer that now CU it's not a formal presentation but I think it's it's something that you know you have to have so many people accounted for as employees working in the restaurant working at these catered functions or functions and you know where's your employee parking where your guest parking um and I'm just a little con little concerned about that okay uh well we have had preliminary discussions with Hancock and their calculations show that a traffic study won't we we won't trigger a traffic study with the uses that we're contemplating but you know that's that's an informal review on their po uh now I understand that it's not the best uh uh ESS U surprisingly you know and I've been on this property since I was uh in first grade I I grew up in the puam house uh there's not a lot of accidents that you'd think that they would have been accidents there they they have not been surprisingly so it's imperfect um and yeah if we were holding a vents we probably wouldn't want people using the driveway as a throughway anyhow so uh we would contemplate uh blocking it off at least partially um and yeah parking is a as a concern um and Handcock based on what we proposed here does some initial calculations and we would be under uh the this requirements um you know that's why we under the under the parking requirements yep okay yep you know it wasn't by a a lot and we could add parking but we're trying to balance the balance this right so yeah I think you need to be prepared to answer those questions as you know how many people if it's all fully built out right how many employees how many seats in the restaurant if you're adding tents which are not structures so we're not counting per se those um you know what I mean it's a if it's a truly a temporary tent that's not really something we normally would Count versus a a building right so it just I'm just hopeful that great you have 200 people on site one day for various events going on yeah it's not anot Park I don't know if you can handle that all all that traffic at once that's that's a concern yeah um I do understand the concern we do have signed kind of some offsetting requirements because we have you know the parking for putting and pantry and the business cycles for that is probably not the same as for events because events tend to be would tend to be uh at night and we're actually our Peak business is early afternoon for the existing so um do we ever fill our current parking lot sure uh but that's uh that's the exception uh you know we'll do it around holidays we'll you know we have some events there where we can't fit all the parking now that uh you know when we do the the benefit for uh we do the ice cream for breakfast which is a benefit we make it a benefit and uh I don't know how we fit all the people in because it's a mob scene but you know these things sometimes find a way to works out to but I you know I understand there's statutory requirements we may be looking for some moderate relief on those um okay Jean do you have any comments or questions um I think this is a great proposal um I'm happy that you are maintaining the historic home um just also Echo what they say about parking um I don't know maybe you could do some sort of like the bricks that have the infiltration if you need extra on the grass maybe um something like that yeah but um what what are you doing with the restaurant is it is it going to be closed are you keeping it open what's that put and Pantry yeah no p and pantry is uh showing here is will be expanded oh great so it's not closing yeah yeah so we're at uh NE next year will be uh 74 years so um the uh the following year will be 75 years so that's uh we we don't have any plans to to close the putner pantry that's even better news that being said if you want to come up and support us go ahead absolutely yeah I don't think I have any other questions um thank you all right so yeah just a just a few questions and I think this is a great um uh you know I'm I'm excited about this you know in terms of of this this plan and the historic piece of it and I think you've you know you know you're uh you know think you've done your you know family PR and I know your your you know dad passed away recently and that's you know I think that's a it's a a nice Legacy he was very interested in this particularly in the last year and in moving this along yeah so you know putting a plan in front of him was important but uh he kind of inherited the responsibility from his uh uncles and Aunt sure and and so he was kind enough to pass it on to us that's a that's very no that's a that's a great great legacy I mean um some of the concerns I have again just is in terms of um uh you know that I know is it's been articulated already in terms of parking and maybe if there's a way if if you are seeking if if you are seeking relief and I understand in terms of the concerns of sort of it's a balancing in terms of the you know keeping the historical nature of the property and just having a bunch of black top which I don't think is great but you know I'm not sure if there's a way that you can even in terms of you know uh I think was even mentioned earlier in terms of you know you know potentially even if you have a large event busing people in if there's if you if you're able to have any arrangements with neighboring properties make an agreement where you're able to have even a staging and then yeah drive people in I think that potentially could help you know uh at least ease some concerns about about parking uh that that's that's something that might be uh you know worth worth looking into yeah uh we we had talked about that there is some churn in the ownership in the area so we don't know quite who our neighbors are going to be sure so you know the Village Green property is I'm not sure that that uh there's any firm understanding of what's happening there that would be a natural because it's quite a bit of parking there but um you know was I knew that was going to be a auto dealership and now it's not right so I'm actually glad it's not a auto dealership but I don't know what it's going to be okay and but again I think that's something just to just to look at those sort of options because you hear some of the concerns you know we have just in terms of you know potential parking and circulation and um that sort of thing a question I had also as well I know you mentioned adaptive reuse um in terms of would you need to or wanted would you need to seek relief under the Adaptive reuse bylaw at all I don't think so okay I don't think I mean it it's Highway corida MH um it's right now the use is residential right right so and we don't want to we don't want to switch to uh to commercial MH um until we need to obviously uh and we you know we haven't really had any formal discussions with code enforcement you know we're talking about a 350 year old house with six 6'2 in ceilings MH right and uh uh so that's going to be uh uh it's going to be a maze to navigate okay so we not you know and that which is why we're we contemplate limiting it probably to less than 50 people because you get over 50 people then then the restrictions as I understand have become quite a bit more daunting yeah I think that's definitely a good stop to make in terms of code enforcement and make sure really for the house to do events with more than it would be too put too much stress on the house right um we could you know we could do a tent with a 100 people outside sure uh We've I don't know if anyone has been by there we we didn't know exactly what we were doing in the house till we get done with this but we know what we want the property look like so we've we've landscaped a lot of it uh it was a it was a jungle as you know mhm and uh and so we've you know we we started that to give us a glimmer of hope um let's see I don't I don't have any further questions on May here Josh any questions from town staff sort of what you know is this um what's sort of the next step in the process um probably just as the plans you know be of begin to to become more kind of final and the and You Know It uh the closer you kind of feel the development team that they're close to this is what we potentially want to do obviously we're very happy to meet with you when um well that's that's the next step right so we want to we want to make sure that the path we're taking didn't have any outright objections then we'll follow up with code enforcement and you know start showing some details so that when we come back um we already have a pretty good clear understanding of what we're up against there you financially as well sure um so uh and you know at this point there is uh you know moving it along as quickly as possible is important because we don't make we don't bring in any income until we get to a certain point and uh okay okay any other questions from the from the board uh this is not a public hearing but I do see a hand raised by a member of the public so but if they wanted to chair is prerogative I'll question uh Nova town meeting member preing Johan I'm really excited about this this is great um I curious through the chair would they be able to just use grass as parking for extra and like not actually have pave when they needed it and if like people didn't want to park on grass for shoes or something like that they could do valet right I don't know if that's even allowed if so that's my question and also I wasn't sure if they had thought because it's Highway Corridor there's lots of traffic and everything do they have any plans to really kind of block the property from all of that noise and traffic like I don't know some kind of Walling or trees or anything like that I'm just thinking about the people at or like renting the space at an event you mean at an event and the people renting the space going it's kind of loud or there's a loud traffic sorry well can I just ask we had it was a two-part question I just want to go and just in terms of the the grass parking um Josh any thoughts in terms of in terms of that I mean that wouldn't be a permanent parking yeah I mean I don't know the bylaw if that would could you speak up yeah I don't know in in reviewing the bylaw I'm not sure that you know those types of kind of temporary spaces would count per se but we could I could look into it further but my gut feeling is probably not like without diving into it too hard right so I think it guess you're saying is that without diving into it would not necessarily be able to count for their their spaces so I guess is that something that could be considered like a cons if they are seeking less than the right the parking and they're seeking any sort of Rel they would have to address measures such as potential shuttle or parking lied parking Elsewhere on the think of something a situation like this with the grass MH in sort of a way that it could be kind of you could look at it as like a sort of type of Reserve type situation right like in the future or if the property owner and or the town or over time is like we really need these 10 15 spaces this isn't really this isn't function right like this probably really needs to be converted from the grass to the pavement okay that's kind of how I view this type of situation gotta Jim did you have any thoughts on that I know because you mentioned the parking yeah I mentioned Reserve but I mean if you do Reserve then you get that all go as part of your stor Water Management you know because you can't if you say well you know you can just park in the grass over there that and then it becomes a habit y it's not really allowed I mean you can have Reserve parking to to minimize your asphalt I mean you could do have you know impervious surface like was discussed but you can't oh well just keep parking on the grass and before you know it you haven't you got a any any parking you put on that you have to deal with the stone waterer management aspect of it m um you know for anything that runs off from the vehicle has to be captured so it's all part of it okay yeah well you know we we've obviously had discussions with with uh Hancock on storm water management and U I understand that it has to be addressed I also know with the the amount of coverage we anticipate here that and haven't lived on the property much of my life and you know I sit next door right in that building there most of the week no water leaves the property you know we we had 3 in of rain in the low point there was a there was a puddle 6 in wide uh 6 ft wide but you know I understand we have to have something it's not just it's whatever might come off a vehicle like oil or yeah uh contaminants and those all have to be separated so that's part of what you're you're dealing with managing from I've had we've had long discussions with with the woman from Hancock on this and yeah yeah so Goa um um I guess with respect to the the no the sort of the question about the noise or wall would you be yeah so so we do it we do expect to to start adding some uh vegetative screening um we want you know you couldn't even see the house before because it was all overgrown so we do want people to be able to catch some glimpses of the house but obviously if you're having an outdoor event there we we would like it to not seem like you're in the middle of a clover leaf which is what you are and amazingly if you stand over by the putam house um you know it's screened with a hedge you really don't know you're on a main road so we'd like to try to sure to do that for the rest of the property and do it in a I think you can tell from the way we landscape now that whatever we do is people are going to be happy with yeah that's good to know so sounds good anything anything else do you any of your other and do you have any things you want to add or no we just okay okay all right well thank you for thank you for coming and uh and giving us the giving us the preview on this and uh and we look forward to to hearing and seeing more okay thank you okay our next item here and this is a um continuation of the uh public hearing with respect to the subdivision rules and regulations uh discussion of new planning board rules and regulations governing the subdivision of land in Danvers Massachusetts and um and uh and Josh it's my understanding I know we we've had this uh we we've heard this once before and we are um uh and it's my understanding that we would not be anticipating a vote tonight because is it correct the Town Council is still reviewing some aspects of this or is that yes that is correct um we um I know we had a few questions after the last meeting too specifically I think in terms of the um uh the cuis ACT dead end streets right issue as well so um so you want to add a few things in terms of where we are so you said Town Council is still in the process of reviewing so yeah I'm sorry I'm trying to uh just talk and look for something at the same time I apologize um so yes the the document that's that was in the packet was um kind of updated and like cleaned up um we internally had a bunch of you know questions and comments just planning engineering staff um and it was sent to Town Council uh um and be we would recommend or we would like to have them give their kind of can you speak close to the microphone we would like to have their kind of overall their kind of their blessing or their review before we make our official vote I know that there from our last conversation that probably the biggest kind of policy question item unresolved was the the item about the the dead end streets or the culde acts um one of the what we as staff or what um we were looking for the board tonight is sort of a uh narrowing in on that policy question about the culdesac um I'm just trying to I was trying to find it in here so I could show it on the board but essentially I think this is in the subdivision this is I mean this is this this is the proposal I think you sent a we have a word version that's in our packet I think it's starting at page 42 okay which has different options it was hidden from me sorry okay um yeah so I was just going to show it on the screen sorry okay that's what I was great trying to do so um so we're not voting on the full on the full subdivision but you do need a we do need like a policy direction from the board on on this particular item so done VI vote we would like to if Town Council um is able to review it but before our next meeting our goal would really we would really like to have the board uh vote for on the final language at at our next meeting on December 10th okay but uh in front of us tonight um in the document we are sort of we are providing three basically three options regarding the um the prohibition on dead and streets or called The xx uh the first being we just basic we just keep keep the identical language that we currently have in our 1979 subdivision or RS where so they're allowed up to a length of 600 feet and then you know anything F in a greater length is requires a waiver okay um we in a staff two other potential options one is sort of the compromise you know option in that in lowering that number down from 600 to 300 and then the the other option which was proposed at the last meeting is the prohibition of dead end streets uh one just point of clarification that probably was not articulated or highlighted well enough or should have um is even with the proposal to prohibit dead end streets the a developer and or applicant would still have the opportunity to wave that prohibition and could still you know construct a subdivision with a cesac so wouldn't it wouldn't obstruct that from ever you know that option of building a Denon Street wasn't was never completely off the table MH it just required a waiver um so I hope that is clear now but um and I asked this a qu you know in terms of clarification in other communities yeah so um there are several communities in mass that have uh that have adopted in their subis rules and Rags that basically on the sheet that third option which would uh prohibit Deb end streets except with the use of a waiver um just some examples just towns Community whatever um adbor Weston Winchester Dover Westminster Somerville um and something similar is uh Middleton e Middleton's limit is is 500 so just for a point of reference so I see so Middleton what they did is they they they didn't so they kind of did more like what the exactly right this the so they they so it's not so it's it's lessened exactly MH so um in the communities have they used the the ones that have prohibited the dead end streets as their as the has the waiver been done that yeah so just just because Brian zelli had worked in Winchester for almost a decade um his experience was they had in 2011 voted to get rid of or prohibit called the sex with with um the waiver requirement um and in his time there there were at least two subdivisions that were built that were granted the waiver and the subdivisions that were built were were with called thex or were with that in streets so okay got it those are just some examples of communities on in the Commonwealth that you know have done something similar that we're proposing to do um clearly you know from our meeting there was you know different opinions on this matter so we thought that it might be beneficial to kind of talk through some options so okay I think doing putting together the options is good so let's let's come back here to let's let's talk about it in terms of what the uh um you know in terms of what what folks thoughts are but I guess both in terms of this specific as well as also there any other areas of the of the subdivision rules and and regs um uh Jim did you want to yeah I think my my position is pretty clear on that I I I don't think we should uh change that rule on this the called the the sax I think I've been on the board since the late 990s and all we've had is called the sax I haven't can't remember a a subdivision that connected I'd be happy to be educated if I'm wrong um but the town really does not have much left in developable land and if we're looking to uh encourage development and we've had a lot of uh meetings and community-based meetings and grants and um State legislation to encourage um you know more housing in town and in towns in Massachusetts to limit that I think is not in concert with that um I mean a policy is one thing but a rule is another and I don't see anything wrong with the c sexs that have been built in town I think they they're good developments uh they do provide you know dead end streets granted but it it creates a neighborhood you know cars passing through there per se I don't think the the fire department excuse or the water main stubbing is a is a is something that I think it's a pretty weak argument um so I I I propose no change I I don't think 300 ft it's even shorter uh it's it's it's something that it's worked it hasn't it hasn't been a problem in town that I can say I mean people have built these developments and they've been successful and I think they've built you know nice neighborhoods um and and we've regulated them throughout so to make this a firm rule I mean while maybe in the background it might be a policy thing that uh staff may recommend but I don't see why we should do it at this point if we were just starting out in 1950 developing this town that might be a different story but um the town is pretty much developed you've got a few sites you're going to you you you can maybe develop or reuse but there's there's not a lot that's going to change that's it okay me that's good um Mike any thoughts on us I mainly Echo what Jim has to say I think that if we could have done this a long time ago it may have been beneficial I I live in an area where it's a lot more all connected and walkable downtown and and it's great but I just think if we're trying to provide more housing for people and um there's not a lot of space left and I don't really know how we do it so kind of the same thing Jim said I'm not I'm not opposed to a different idea if I understand it and see a reason that gets explained but the reasons that have been explained to me at this point I just think that it doesn't do it for me I guess so far so that's kind of where I stand okay Jean um yeah so I guess there like you said there's not a lot of land left to develop um I know we did just change a lot of the Zoning for the MBTA community so there are places where development Could Happen um and I don't necessarily think that culde saacs are best practice even though they've been going on in this town for a long time um I honestly would rather see the open area stay open and have the development be where we designated it um but I don't think even if we pass this that people aren't going to come in here and just ask for a waiver so I don't think it really makes a difference Tim your thoughts yeah I generally agree with Jean's last point because if I understand correctly any of the proposed language you could just get a waiver from regardless so I mean I think we've all shared our opinions on you know encouraging more development wanting more housing not wanting to cut off one potential way to develop and create more housing but if you can get a waiver from any of these I don't think I have a very strong preference one way or the other I do think I would I do actually tend to prefer um the more generic language of no subdivision but you can ask for a waiver because then given the you know we're trying to write language now that will cover so few plots that probably have some weird design considerations already I'd almost prefer they always come in front of us so we can just take each Case Case by case rather than trying to say 300 feet arbitrarily like I have no idea if that's the right number um so yeah I I do tend to prefer proposed language number two with sort of uh the understanding that we're all sitting here saying we we want those types of development we' just rather you know not set us up for um dead end streets that could be avoided or designs of dead end streets that might exacerbate the considerations for like deadend water mains or really narrow entries with lots of trees or something like that that could create access issues so so then you are in favor of the proposal language number two is that what you're saying Tim yeah I mean if any if you can get a waiver regardless of what the language is the ones that prescribe a certain width or length seem overly precise considering how few Lots will actually probably be considered here like I have no idea if these are the right numbers I would much rather just see each Dead End come in front of us consider it on a case-by Case basis um because what we're talking about here is you know a subdivision you know again with so few plots like can you avoid this can you go wider and longer or you know I could just see a lot of different uh yeah just reiterate what I said that I'd rather see each Case by case rather than try to prescribe some arbitrary number that I'm I'm not in a position to say is right for all the lots that are left sure okay can I just comment on I just just to clarify I mean a lot of the subdivisions that came in you know they weren't all 600 ft somewhere longer and they needed to get a waiver from that 600 foot rule typically you know that happened but getting a waiver is not guaranteed getting a waiver means the board has to vote on that so if someone's sick that particular night and doesn't make the meeting and they're looking for a vote they have to get a 3 to one vote um so it's not a guarantee so why are we making impediment um you know to just to be able to do the subdiv question for my understanding you would still need approval for the subdivision period regardless of whether the waiver was there right well if we didn't if we if we did the new language that says no cu the sacks then to come in and say we want to do a cuac we need a waiver from the rule right I think I think that's a harder or harder ask mhm you know what I mean versus hey we've got an 800t Street which we've had in damers and we need a waiver from the rule that says it has to be 600 ft which happens which has happened quite a bit but it's different if you're asking if it's a clear Rule and it may not be us sitting on this board it could be I mean let's face it it took what 1979 yeah long time to now to change these rules um let me ask a thought experiment then so someone comes in with a dead end street that is 500 F feet current rule is 600 ft but it's very obvious they could have designed it such that it would connect and it wouldn't be a dead end street do we have the authority right now to say no to the dead end street because we would prefer a design that connects I don't believe so no I don't think we can not not on that basis I think right right but I I think if you did that though think about it if you have a call the sack cuz to do the C the sack you got to make that big turning Circle so you're eating up party of lots but if you make the street connects connect to the next street you're probably going to lose two of your Lots yeah I mean I was just thinking through in terms of I mean I don't have a very strong preference between any one of these three I think we're all pretty aligned on we would prefer it to connect we don't want to get rid of dead end streets period so how do we encourage the behavior of prefer one versus the other haven't spoken yet but oh sorry Sor everyone who hasn't spoken yet well in my experience working for you know on this for years and I also work with Builders and developers just telling you if someone is putting in a 600t Long street called the sack that's going to cost them over a million dollars to put that in so they want to maximize the number of lots that they can get if someone says hey you going to get six house or eight houses but now you're only going to get six so now it might not be built because that million dollars that they're going to expend is for the infrastructure it's for the plumbing it's for the underground utilities it's for the lights they're going to spend in excess of a million dollars for that and now we're going to tell them okay you know could you lose two lots and still make money I don't know it's so costly now it's really really costly and I think the engineers on the board can agree with me I mean just just the plans just to just to plan this just to build it is extremely expensive okay I mean I mean my thoughts in terms of this I mean I and I understand the engineering considerations and um you know but I also I appreciate the um you know sort of the the connectivity piece of this I mean this is something when I was you know you know I mean you know in terms of the you know I think improved connectivity I think is is a is a pro for uh not having um you know again this is a the way I look at it too is I was interested at our last meeting in knowing what the what other communities have done as well as knowing uh to the extent that it also can be that it can be waved and I understand that a waiver is is not it's a waiver it's not as a matter of right and so it's a it might be it might be a big ask and a waiver can be can be declined but in terms of to show I think in terms of a policy from the you know from the town I think to you know I think the you know the sort of if you're looking at sort of I think the modern planning proc perspective and I understand that we're you know we we've had a long track history in Danver and we're not in 1950 so I I get it but I I see the um at least from a policy perspective of uh of the you know of that a that culde a I know I mean it's you're you potentially would have less houses but you would have less maybe large single family homes built so I see and again I didn't grow up on a cold stack I grew up on Water Street which is certainly no one would confuse that with being a culac and um and I I live in a 19 you know we live in a 1920s house which is has through streets running through so um you know but I think the I think the increased connectivity I think that is certainly helpful understanding that there's a limited amount of of of of of property left in Danvers I understand that but also there's going to be over time I mean you're going to have infill as well I mean you're going to have properties which are previously occupied which may end up being taken down even what you see on North Street I mean that was a you know previously a um you know a property so uh which ended up you know it was much larger parcel and now it got it got broken up so um anyway the way I look at it is because there is the ability to to get a a waiver um I would be I would be in favor of the uh of the option you know of the proposal too so again that's my um you know that's my my two cents so okay so um this is a public hearing but uh any other further comments from the members of the of the board before I get comments no okay yep Mr Brad stre again Bill Brad street town meeting member Precinct one I believe there are several pieces of property in town that the town has an easement on so that they can do what they have to do is an easement a possibility to connect the services I think you said something about the fire department doesn't like dead end stubs they like through could could that be an option perhaps an easement to have the loop but not so that they were satisfied it's like crossing over right ASO as opposed to a stub because the street so long which you don't want but fire department doesn't like stubs if you got another Street or a cat can't you put in an easement so that that water has to flow around just an easement so it can't be built on but you still get what you want for a service okay I'm just I'm just asking I'm not sure about the answer to that yeah typically I mean if if you're going to put an easement so you're the abutter to this new development so now the developer is going to ask you hey do you mind if I put a a water line through your property and it's going to be a 20 foot wide easement you can't park any vehicles on it you can't put any structures on it cuz if it if it has a problem we got to go in and we got to dig it up it's just a thought yeah it's just it's just that anyone you as the landowner next door is going to say sure I'll let you do that give me $100,000 and you know what are the options I mean going to be a not be required yeah that's why ask it's a little unique it's a little unique in that sense but it's it's probably within the realm of possibility has it been done it may have been done maybe on a small scale but on a on a newer scale bigger you know it's it's it's an idea and I know you I believe you brought up the fact that someone's developing property and it would increase the cost to develop the property the way they would like to not with say the town would like it develop it's the cost of doing business either don't do it or do do it if you choose not to do it maybe there is another developer who will see the benefit of doing it so that he can recoup his Co I don't know how long when you talk about recouping cost 5 years 10 years is a decade well well no I mean if you if you can only put 30,000 ft Lots right you're in Residence 3 and you've got like the mcgil property for example right so you got nine acres there that were developed there were some on the street there anr Lots on the street that you know cookie cutter you have your Lots you have your Frontage on the street but in the back you've got six Lots okay and you can you know divvy them up accordingly you know one kind of a pork chop lot lot too to narrow in the front and then gets bigger in the back so you end up with and then on top of that you've got this big huge retention detention Pond that sits there excuse me and occupies occupy space because you've got some wetlands and you've got some runoffs that you have to deal with so all that factored in if you took that same subdivision said let's connect that to North Street you would lose a lot on North Street M cuz you have to put the road through there right and that would have so now you've just lost a half a million dollar land sale is it still going to be profitable to that and and you've added some additional costs maybe maybe not it maybe on a case-by Case basis maybe you lose Not only would you lose the lot potentially on North Street but another lot on chadam way so you could lose two lots and what I'm saying is when when developers look at projects they decide you know what what are my cost going to be right now you're probably looking at I don't know $350 a square foot to build something on top of that you've got all this infrastructure cost that you have to factor in so if we don't want the project developed if we cut it down so small that you're only going to get a few Lots or a few units out of like like the problem we were having with downtown by by a by a comparison people aren't building out the other than the damis hardware spot which you know we'll see what happens there if someone's actually going to buy it or Mr Hernandez is going to build it which I'm not sure if he is MH you have the zoning that's very complicated that's very costly because you're paying wump fees you're paying you know uh fees to damis housing and and so it gets to a point that maybe I'm not going to develop because it's too expensive well can you always seek a waiver though a waiver of those costs no a waiver of the costs but if you're not able to you know of losing that property of losing that that one lot you mentioned like for example North Street you know mcgilvery you know is that a case where yeah you would you would present it you you'd seek out a waiver right but a wave is not guaranteed so we're making an obstacle now where we only have so many Parcels left we're we're putting an impediment now to make it harder to develop those Parcels Jim how long was that did they have to come in for a waiver anyway cuz it was over 600 ft I can't remember I forgot I could can't remember it it might be but it's something I don't think it's much more than 600 yeah no I was just curious I think it's close yeah yeah okay it might have been by right you know to to the 600 I guess to your point Jim like about like that area there on North Street I don't see as much of a benefit as connecting it cuz it's not like it's a walkable area the CAC feels like more of a benefit to that area but I do think if there were I I it's not a blanket statement cuz there I'm sure there's is that they if they did connect they may be better so it's really hard so that's why to Tim's point it's like okay well would we rather see them or would we rather not like I that's why I'm kind of I I see both sides of the fence honestly so that's why I'm curious that's why I was asking the question about the 600 feet okay gotcha but everything has to come in front of us now we all have to deal with the you know and and like I said that's really all we've seen and I don't know other than maybe a development like the Cara light that's going to be much more acreage and you're going to have three cities involved three towns involved so there's going to be C activity whether you're exiting through peid or Salem or dverse um so it's a little different animal maybe you end up with some fingers based on Wetlands based upon where there there are cue saacs that you end up with I don't know I haven't seen do you feel with your time on the board that there's culdesac that got approved that could have been connected I know that's kind of like digging deep in your brain but like is there is there like way like could we have I don't think so because again remember this town was you know in the 50s with the GI bill you got wood Vil being developed you got you know everything on a grid right so you got all these grids like Back Bay that was before that I live on a grid right so it's all a grid but then as you expand out into North Street and those areas you do end up you have the main roads but just by virtue of whether you have Wetlands problems or you have you know a lot of the newer developments just end up that way because you're not going to be able to cut through someone's you'd have to buy the house on the connecting Street to get through it's just not possible yeah I mean I I think it can be a policy that's that's something that but I don't know if you want to make it a restriction right by making it a rule it becomes a restriction and it's not it's not something guaranteed it might be like hey this is a great plan but for whatever reason yeah we don't want to vote on and this land does not get developed M um and so now if I'm a developer I'm concerned that should I spend all this money I mean just to just to do plans just to do your you know permitting you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and you're going to go into town planning board hoping that they're going to vote to wave that requirement for you where before it's always been by right yep so are you you going to invest all that money with the possibility that they say no yeah I think it comes down to the to a policy I mean I think that's you know that's it so y okay it's are you we have no Nova has a question I'm just I'm just talking it's it's a long-term investment it's not a bill that comes in does something and 10 years down the road Everything's changed it's a the town has grown we've dealt with wood Veil and other developments it's a step by step we don't have a crystal ball what's going to happen down the street I'm not anti-development there are developers out there some who want to make a fast Buck some are interested in developments that will last and be acceptable not just today but down the line again I don't have a crystal ball I don't think developers do but I'd like to think that we're trying to look after what is in the best interest of ders not the developer because they can't develop this spot they'll find another spot or they'll go someplace else and another developer might show up who feels he can do what we're looking for to make the town serviceable we can't house everybody we certainly can house a lot of people in town but I think there are limits I mean I I don't know I'm not trying to argue with you it's just I'm not on the board it's just an observation I have I just I won't go into it because I don't want to get into politics thank you thank you no I think Mr Brad she get an application for um associate member Josh can you work on that I mean he's at every meeting anyway that's a good point we can you know can we nominate huh he's an observer he says okay NOA samay town meeting member Precinct one um I generally agree with like what Jean and Tim said that ideally yes proposed language to um because yes there is a waiver available and no it's not guaranteed that's the point that it's not guaranteed that if it doesn't make sense for that project then no you don't get the waiver and just because it's something that the town has done over the past doesn't mean that's what we continue to do um this is where we get to correct mistakes um and not continue on a path that we don't think is sustainable anymore and I totally agree that when you have streets that are connected it it actually includes them in the town and yes you don't have just like five 5,000 squet houses which is not really considered adding housing I mean it does but you know kind of um we want these developments to be part of the Town not just little they have their little neighborhood and there's 10 people that live down there and no one sees them and no one so I like the idea of the connectivity and different types of Housing and maybe some smaller houses maybe they don't all have to be giant um and I know it's very expensive I get it I have been here when developers talk about how and I understand but there's a line and we'll see that line and like whether or not it's worth it to them we can't just bend over backwards for what whatever they want because they need to make a ton of money or whatever it is they want to do um it's up to us also so I think having proposed language to is perfect because yes they do have to come before you but right now you say they have to come before you anyway but they still have some things that they can just do automatically like you can't say no to a 600t thing right now right like if someone wants put that's just a given so I think this way yeah you can give them a waiver but if it doesn't make sense you don't okay thank you okay okay any other further any other further comments on this uh so what do you so Josh do you need a a now we have you know there are three different there are three options so um can take out number one right what's that we can take out proposed language number one since none of us seem to so I guess the question is we you know so I so I I assume you need a you want to need a motion from us sure and it might make sense just each individual one just or I mean I can I'm not make I can't make a motion but I can entertain a motion yeah you want a roll call vote what are you asking for um does either or you know I just need an indication from the board I don't have a strong preference if it's a roll call or aot like an vote for each one I so there existing we have existing there was proposed language number one and proposed language number two right right so we can I mean I can entertain a motion someone can can move right yeah I move that we approve the existing language with no change okay so that motion has been has been made and so let's have a let's is there a second to that is there a second to that motion can I can I understand so we are approving what we want to move forward to then vote to approve in the next meeting yeah the the the language whatever we approve tonight will this is just to get a sense of which version we want and then we'll approve the whole thing next right because this need to go to ultimately doesn't need to go to town Council to review everything and I think they want the direction on on this this piece that's right okay so Tim yes you were to confirm you're correct thank you so a motion has been made is there a second on the existing language okay all right all right there's no motion motion fails motion fails yes okay thank you all right I'd entertain a motion as to um as to another of the of these I make a motion we move forward with proposed language number two okay there's a motion for proposed language number two is there a second second okay it's been moved in second and so this is the proposed language number two um just to read it again no subdivision shall be approved which contains dead end streets so waiver may be applied for for this provision and may be granted if there's a determination by the planning board that the waiver is in the public interest and not inconsistent with the intent and purpose of the subdivision control law and of these regulations is there any discussion on this motion yeah um okay it's been moved in seconded all in favor please say I I I I opposed I I'm still on the fence do I have to vote on one either way or do I like is there what's the what's the ruling on that yeah you do have to it's been moved in second so you could abstain or you could yeah or I honestly don't know how I feel so I'm going to abstain on this if that's okay is that allowed or am I I think that's fine it's a motion you can do as As You Wish okay okay so the motion then so so it's a two to no it was three 311 yeah right Tim that you you you were an I correct Tim was I Lou is I Jean was an i Jean's an i three one one right okay so it would the motion passes y so it's propose language number two okay all right so that's going to go then that language will be added will be incorporated into the final that will be sent around then to everyone okay I have a quick question yes is that okay Josh I know we're going to look at this for the next meeting but is there a easy way to see like recent subdivisions that have been passed for my own studying knowledge before I come back to the next meeting yeah CU you like plans or just applications from the past 5 to 10 years yeah honestly if I can just see where they are so I can kind of look at them and do my own yeah I could send you um not tomorrow but no no in the next week or so it's fine you just want to know like the past five applications yeah yeah I can send you the plans or like where they are the street name is fine okay yeah thank you so much yep sounds good anything further on the on the subdivision rules and regulations um because we will need to uh move to continue this to the we'll move to continue the public hearing to our next um uh board meeting on on the 10th of December any further comments or remarks on that okay hearing none can I entertain a motion to uh continue the public hearing to the next uh planning board meeting of December 10th so moved okay moved by Jean is there a second second okay second by Mike all in favor please say I I I any opposed none okay motion the the public hearing is continued uh next item are minutes I believe we have minutes from this I think it was the September 24th meeting move to accept Okay Jim moves to accept the uh uh the minutes as prepared is there a second second okay second by Tim okay any discussion on that all in favor please indicate by saying I I I any opposed none okay next um next meeting Josh yep it's on Tuesday December 10th okay here at 7 um I think it's going to be a quick update on the tras lane item that was continued from our previous meeting um subdivision rules and Rags which we just continued and then the open the public hearing opening for the zoning amendments for the February town meeting February 2025 town meeting okay and potentially signage I assume what's that and potentially the signage potentially signage okay got it and um just so you folks are aware um I think I mentioned this at our previous meeting December 10th meeting I will be out of the country so we will not be uh I'll not be able to participate but then um uh and so I asked um uh Jean as clerk to serve as acting chair and I ask Tim to serve as acting clerk in my absence um everybody else will be able to attend yes okay I just had a question on that um so we're just going to get an update we're not going to be on Trask on yeah yeah I think it was just an update because we weren't going to have a vote yeah because of of my because I think it was explained at the last meeting that I was going to be absent right so my one question I had is I I know this evening you even though we have these kind of informal um staff items and you're allowing public comment I would like to have public comment by the tras I can tell you I've gotten a lot of calls about about it I've gotten calls from residents I've gotten calls from people in Beverly yeah no is there why would there be a Prohibition from that cuz I think it's going to be helpful I guess I'm not clear what do you mean well at the last meeting public comment was not allowed on trash Lane it was I don't remember not at all and we had a full all the people not allowed I mean it's it's not a public hear it's not a public it's the chair's discretion to to as to whether or not to allow public comments so that is that your com is that you're saying well I'm wondering why and and also I think it would be helpful because again there is is a there's a lot of emotions and there's a lot of residence that came out and I got a call from a person who was on a board in Beverly sure and I think this should be public comment and I think it would be helpful for our decision- making and I think that there are alternatives to their proposal and when you only get one side and you get an engineer or a traffic study person telling one thing that doesn't give you I know we're getting our own traffic study which is helpful but I think the people that live there and experience on a daily basis what it is now and then anticipating what it's going to compound to sure with you know they're saying 2,000 trips it could be 4,000 trips we don't know I mean people everybody drives today everyone takes their own car nobody car pools nobody you know and you've got kids and you're going to take the kid to practice I mean that's a destination there's no way out other than going in and out of that one um egress so that's that's a concern and I think I think we ow it to the citizens of Danvers especially who live in that neighborhood to be able to at least have their peace and give them time to comment and maybe not at the 10th but at the meeting after that and where and I think we should let them know because if they all try to come to that meeting and we're not really going to talk about it yeah so I guess where I sit um be I guess referring to our last meeting because it was a preliminary conversation I mean I think it was we were just viewed it as a very preliminary conversation which is why we know that there is going to be a significant amount of public interest in it I think that that first meeting we were just trying to have a preliminary conversation it wasn't necessarily to prohibit I mean we wer making a decision at that moment but I understand I understand Jim's Point understand that's a it's a point it's a point well taken and I and I appreciate you know and that's something also in terms of the way we you have meetings if that's some you know there's you know we're during the course of a meeting if there's a if there's a if if a member feels also that they should that you know that the the chair should entertain public comment on you could certainly suggest it as well and I can I also don't remember don't want to get into too much um I don't remember there many people from the public there a lot of people from the public want to go to the podium and we said no I I don't remember even I think okay Lou said it right at the outset oh that they couldn't and I think they might have been a little disappointed in that sure um well I think I know that it was not a public it was not a public hearing right I don't remember there being like no I don't remember any comment there no public comments no but I understand but I understand his point similarly tonight you know those two other items you know they weren't public hearings but we still you know allowed it's our hand raised and I I that there had to be 20 plus yeah for sure yeah um I going forward I think that there's a strong likelihood that we will obviously hear from the public in some manner so well I think it's good to be if you tell them to pick an edsman you know we don't want 40 people coming to the mic maybe three or four talking on different subjects so that it's clear you know this person's going to talk about traffic this person's going to talk about you know different different subjects so I think it's helpful if they have a one person or two in the neighborhood that maybe reached out to you I know there's some written comment and there yeah there was a the you know if someone if the public had called me that day or emailed me and said hey am I going to be able to talk tonight I probably would have said um tonight might not be the night like the specific night but obviously if you want I would say on the phone obviously feel free to attend be informed come we will likely have an opportunity to to talk you know at one of the future meetings for purpose of the for an even for purpose of agenda planning and such is there something because I know sometimes it doesn't you know you'll see something that doesn't indicate that it's a public hearing right but you know people will come and they they want us you is there is there is there a note that you can do on the agenda says this is not a public hearing however public comment you know can be entertained you know uh you know the chair can entertain public comment or something like that that indicates that we could talk through some language that we could potentially add to theone you know frankly if someone wants to raise their hand and and be recognized they can they can comment sure yeah even with the rules we're doing the rules over I mean I know at one point we would allow on the agenda someone to come up if they weren't on the agenda to ask a question or or present something we used to have a time you used to have citizens time or yeah new business or yeah some exactly there wasn't an application but was a way to access the board not necessarily make them wait till 11:00 right you know we'll give you five minutes like on like not for anything but the informal one tonight you got to give them a a time period because they're taking time from the board and they might never come back I mean it's a presentation so we're doing them a favor they haven't paid any application fees obviously they had a plan done and I'm all for historical buildings and all that but I'm just saying typically we're like okay we're GNA give you 15 minutes sure because yeah no I mean everyone we didn't have a lot of things if we had a lot on the agenda well that's why you just got to be there a lot of moving parts to all of these things um but I'm hearing what you were saying I think those are fair points y yeah just real quick on that topic did we get any update from the town lawyer or attorney or wherever whatever we I forget the name of the gentleman but um on like what we actually have that we can do ask yeah um be careful talking about this since it wasn't on the agenda tonight we probably hold off that's fine but um I believe just asking for a status and so you don't have to you know I think that they will be attending future meetings will we get an update on what we can actually vote yay or nay on at that point there probably will be a memo of some type and or they pres or they or they will attend the meeting so they could you could ask the person in person thank you and although I'll not although I will not be attending the December 10th meeting I'll make sure to watch the you know the I'll watch the the video and so do the Mullins so I'll be able to participate and what's if anything that continues on from there and Lou you not being here in terms of what we just looked at with the language with the dead end streets how does that affect the voting for that or does it at all that that because the 3 to11 vote that would language will be incorporated it so it won't matter but we're not voting the next time to move that we we're voting on the final language I guess of the next meeting right that Lou won't be here for yes right okay all right just clarifying thank you yep and just backing up for one second because you said that the town attorney might either attend or send a memo it might be an Andor it might be a it might be an Andor yeah I'd strongly prefer a memo ahead of time just to be able to be prepared to the extent that's something we can ask for yeah I think that's a good I think the way we teed it up and I want to get you should just be careful again cuz it's not on the agenda that more robust conversation on that item will be on the January 14th meeting than the December 10th so are we going to vote on the subdivision rules next meeting yes or we're trying to that's the goal so just for conversation you need a majority vote on that and you're only going to have four members right that's correct okay okay all right anything anything further at all I have one minor little comment I was driving up Route One North today we've approved a lot of car dealerships recently great Kia they built it extremely fast good for them uh the parking lot was overflowing they were parking in the grass they're like absolutely everywhere so we keep hearing the story of oh the parking regulations are too high that's not how people buy cars anymore um and we've app we've heard that and approved that three times I think we should be a little bit more critical movie Tim were those K cars or customer or you don't know I was driving on the highway in the rain so I didn't look could you stop next I would assume I would I would assume honestly it's uh inventory to be honest just I saw some yeah I saw enough cars all over the place that uh we should just be a little bit more skeptical is all I'm saying well Ford's doing the same thing behind the mall I've heard that that's why I bring it up probably a 100 cars on the grass now our offices of yeah became aware of that item yes I think we need to yeah regulate yep okay all right anything further I can entertain a motion to adjourn so move all right there a motion is there a second second second all in favor please say I I I anyos have a great Thanksgiving everybody yep that's good