##VIDEO ID:nzQX5Wu9Vwc## [Music] this is my d so Brian zelly are we are we uh I think I have two minutes to go is that correct yep two minutes two minutes purpose okay are all the members of of the board in attendance so far e e Li ailly Josh Morris are we set to begin just one minute okay very good e e [Music] or if you plug into this one will it help since it's coming from the other side like if you just plug into this one since it's closer just send the run across your if you want to move it you want to run this that's easier she not running across let me know when it's uh let me know where we said to begin for now I think so right just let me all know when we said to begin believe he want vacation I was like oh my God there we go okay Brian Josh we said to begin yep we ready Lou okay very Lu excellent very good well thank you very much everybody thank you for the uh uh for those at Decat who helped do the get all the tech together this uh this evening I'm Lou George I'm the chair of the planning board we're here for our public meeting at uh being held at the Danver Senior Center 25 stone Street in Danver December 10th 2024 at 700 p.m. um I'm participating remotely here uh this evening uh and so in terms of any sort of um public comment uh that comes up at the meeting I will have to rely on my fellow board members I'll ask Jean um Haron our clerk if she can just U you know Assist in terms of uh in terms of speakers today and I will also be for votes I'll also ask for uh roll call votes as well just to be able to follow along better because I'll be participating remotely so uh that all being said the first agenda item here is um uh Maple Square 128 Maple Street uh sign package presentation to the planning board a condition of the site plan decision I know we had this discussion at our last meeting so is the um is there is the applicant here to present status yes applicant is here and coming to the microphone okay great thank you Josh and I was going to mention also for the record we have at the meeting today for Town staff we have Josh Mars and Brian zelly okay my name is Craig Fen steel from a15 We're the U developer of maple square and uh I apologize cuz you met a couple weeks ago Tuesday before Thanksgiving I was on the zoom call but you couldn't hear me and I couldn't hear you so I may have some more questions and answers today but um at the time we had discussed some of the signage that was going on Maple Square Gary represented us from our sign company uh and um there were some concerns about the quality of the signs that we had presented and there was a desire on behalf of the planning board here to um kind of elevate the quality of the sign so we came back with a different design that we think um achieves that and um this is an example kind of a flat example of the sign you'll see on the next page a more live picture example from a different property Mard luxury apartments uh and this is a simulated view on the bottom if you want technical questions about the materials Gary would be the best person to ask but this is kind of one of the first things that we wanted to present to you was a the sign for the Curve D Corner front of the building okay good thank you is the Paris still do you have anything further to add or I I can turn things back to the board and um ask any and they can ask some questions nope that's it okay very good um and so I'm going to turn it over um to the um uh to the board um Jean did you have any um any questions for the for the applicant coming out of at this update now yeah thank you is that type of signage going to be for all of the commercial spaces um have you updated the sort of like light box signage that you presented last week so um I think we're going to depend on whatever retail tenant comes into the individual spaces to come back to the planning board for with their own sign design so I don't expect a uniform sign design across the retail spaces okay I do like what you presented for the main entrance um but I think we were probably expecting to see what what was going to be there since there was an idea for last last meeting um and also would like to see uniformity across the building okay anything else any other questions you have no no other questions okay um Jim Sears yes thank you it definitely uh looks like you put more thought into it I'm just wondering on the um on the second slide if you could go to that for the um so is it no longer internally lit or is it more lit on the letters like that appears to be could someone just explain how it's going to be [Music] lit actually there's uh internal lighting and it's called a push through letter so milard is pushed through the face of the sign and just the it's Edge lit kind of like a Halo lit uh so it just bounces off the back it's very subtle but you get kind of a silhouette of the letters so it's a lot less than the white acrylic faces that you saw before and then we apply app like a black vinyl to the face of the letter mhm um and at night you would just see Maple Square lit up and Ms and the other signs above the retail stores would have a similar they could certainly be that way but as Craig said that I think he's looking for them to pull the their own permits and go through the process but they should you know if it's dictated they could certainly follow this as the premier sign and then they have to follow in suit yeah I I think like Jean mentioned I think we'd like to see some uniformity so it's not all um halfhazard you know I think that's a good look okay it's pretty standard uh technology that's it for me Lou I would just add to that that I think we should we should come back on the retail side and maybe come with a uniform signage package on the retail whether it matches this or not I think that's a discussion we should have later because it may make sense to have kind of one Marquee sign and then a standard set of retail signs on Hobart Street that may not be exactly the same so I don't want to commit necessarily to that but I you know will commit to coming back on the retail signage with a package and we'll let you know what we have here and you can weigh in at that time on whether or not you think there's you know some congruence there okay okay okay sounds very good anything further on your on your side no that's it thanks L okay um uh Tim spittle Tim do you have any um any questions or comments no additional questions from what's already been asked thanks for the updated presentation okay um Michael D cois thanks Lou um last time when you guys are here you talked about trying to get this into production ASAP cuz you were guy like timelines and stuff this says it's all conceptual in terms of colors and Design and all that stuff so what we're seeing isn't actually what's going to be on the board it's just the concept of the push through letters is that an accurate statement yeah that's accurate I we'll we'll um it'll be pretty consistent with what you're seeing on the Millard sign so that's why I want to give you a live type picture so it's be consistent with those colors but the teal and the MS logo and all that is not the MS logo will but the teal is not part of the design okay thank you I make anything further at all no no thanks appr okay okay um okay very good yeah in terms of my um uh questions I have is just the um and and I I do appreciate the revision here and and coming back on uh you know pretty much you know since our just our previous meeting so we appreciate that the um uh you know I agree that uniformity is you know is important I think that we do need to have you know some uniformity here um you know just for you know this is a lot you know this is a this is a um this will be a building in the area so I think having that uniform ad do the concerns about you know in terms of retail clients to um but I think coming back I think makes sense coming back to the board once you know once you have a sort of a retail plan to make sure that we have some consistency um turning back to town staff on that is that something uh you know Josh and Brian is that something that can be um you know that that in essence they come back with a you know once they've they've gotten sort of their retail time clients uh organized I think that's fine um one comment I would make from staff is that it probably be beneficial to not maybe have each individual tenant come in individually at different meetings but maybe once um you have a couple of tenants kind of lined up um you know we kind of we could do something similar but you know present this is what the what you know what the signs will be for the three four five tenants that are going to be there and maybe not like each individual tenant that would be my only comment but okay we're I think that's fine okay I think that's in and um I mean coming back to the applicant is that um uh uh is that agreeable to you in terms of coming coming in with the in asence once you have all of your um you at Le at least at least some tenants as opposed to is coming on on sort of a one-off for each one yeah I I think we had you know basically a week to put this together so I didn't want to you know we didn't have the time really to get into the retail signage if they were going to if it was going to be different I'd like to spend some time be thoughtful about what we'll present as a package a couple things cross my mind number one um you know if uniformity is going to carry the day let us come back with something that's in the same family of what we're talking about if it's not exactly the same um my concern is obviously retail tenants like to brand and have their own branding element um so that would be my concern about uniformity in the in the uh retail signage and you know you see a lot of buildings in town and around town that have individual branding right so um not that CVS is going to be a tenant but CVS certainly would not like the milliard type sign as their retail tenant signage sure okay understood I hear what you're saying um so coming back to the um uh to the board is there is there anything um you know is this approach make sense to all you in terms of coming you know having them come back when they have it you know at least it seems like a at least a small Cadre of of retail tenants to to kind of cover the retail signage yeah I think my only concern Lou with that is that we're asking the developer to basically if he has a tenant wait till he has enough tenants to come back to us and one of them might want to move forward and that's a pretty common thing with retail tenants they don't always get them all at the same time so that's my only concern with that and I'm wondering if there's a way in the lease letter for the tenants that they just have a a standard I'm not saying this is the answer but everyone has push through lettering and then they need to just follow those guidelines and then they can meet with Town staff to to approve that I don't know I just don't expect the developer to wait until they have all of their tenants lined up it just that could be a long time we never know so that's my only concern but I don't know what other people's thoughts are okay thoughts on that regard anybody I think that's a good point Mike I'm with you on that I think we like the push through lettering you know as long as you don't see something outlandish color-wise or throwing it off we we we got what we wanted I think as far as the design and the the lit lettering if you will as opposed to the whole uh sign being lit so I think it staff can work with the applicant on that I'd be fine with that okay got it all right and um Gan and Tim is that does that work for you all as well yeah that makes sense agreed okay good all right um and it's coming back to town staff does that seem uh like it makes sense Josh in terms of you know so it looks like there's some consensus here that that they um you know that the that the um you know that the developer works with Town staff as well as uh you know you know ensures that there's some uniformity in the tenants and not it might mean that a that an applicant comes back in you know not you know not necessarily after waiting for a bunch of you know for the other applicants I mean for the other tenants um so just to confirm to clarify um when there are retail tenants if they present um signage that in our determination is very similar to this then they can move ahead and I guess if we feel that it's not within this kind of use the term family or you know very similar to this then maybe we would a push through sign bring it to bring it back to the board saying is that is that what we're all agreeing to okay very good okay that seems to make sense anything um uh anything further from um you know from the um from the board on on this this is not a public hearing as well but if there's any members of the public who have any any questions I could entertain some limited questions from the public if they have questions about this um D I guess there is there's one Public public question or comment but if you I guess if we could request you go to the microphone with your name and um address that would be appreciated Mark Gothia 181 Pine Street does damis mean does damis have any kind of um regulations or standards on on um commercial properties maintaining Frontage Windows signs things like that Shrubbery because this is going to look beautiful when it's done but 5 years from now 10 years from now how do we how do we regulate that mhm okay thank you I'm going to turn that question um uh Josh or Brian can you can you address that that well issue terms of that I guess in terms of I mean I mean this would all follow within the site plan revie yeah I mean obviously we'd work with the property owner you know if there are issues arise in the future um in terms of Maintenance I mean I think it's you know um if it's on the public side it's public sidewalk or public you know infrastructure then it's town of Danvers but if it's private um you know we would work with the property owner management to you know ensure that it's looking nice up to par and if there are uh issues that arise in the future we can have a communication and correspondence and um kind of work those out so okay thank you okay that address your question or is is is there anything further at all there is regulation regarding signage like for example the retail uh establishments cannot put um signage on the glass on the windows and things like that so there there is regulation as to that I mean so you get basically one sign per retail outfit there so okay great thank you Jim okay so Brian I don't know if we need to talk about the awnings or not do we need to talk about the awnings uh I mean the awnings are compliant with the um uh with the regulations based upon the square footage of the sign and the frontage of uh the property um so we don't have uh we um we do have design guidelines for banners sorry for awnings um and you're within those guidelines so they're um it's really up to the to the board uh but uh there's not there's not really a lot of talk to talk about related to um the compliance thank you Brian and then can we go to the temporary banners we talked about so we were talking we were looking for permission to have some these may not be the exact signs but during the lease up process or for a year whichever is earlier uh to have leasing signs on the corners of the building so one on Maple Street one on Hobart Street one in the middle that would just let us advertise that we're now leasing the apartments those again would be temporary they'd be a fix to the side uh they would be taken down if we were permitted you know at latest a year from you know occupancy okay thank you for that okay any um any questions from the um um any questions from the board with respect to this uh this piece of it sort of getting into the the temporary uh the temporary signage um uh questions from from Jee uh no I mean we do allow temporary signage right what is the limit for that we'd have to confirm it might be less than a year but we can you know we would communicate that with you folks okay okay anything further jeene no okay um Tim no questions seem straightforward thanks okay um Jim all set okay great uh Mike quick question can you use comma there's two different designs is the white one that's on the end and versus the green ones are you doing two different ones or is it just I think it'll probably be two different ones I'd like to leave that open unless you need ative answer right now I'm not the design person okay but you know if if you know there's a strong preference one way or the other I certainly could commit but I think I'd like to leave that open they'll generally be in the designs that you'll see here on this page and I think there's maybe another page or the page before this yeah I think the green ones just fit in a little better the way they're kind of like horizontally in between the Windows versus the last one is kind of more of a postcard stamp between windows but that's just my personal thoughts on it yeah I think that works a little bit better on that section of the building so if you if you pan out from the building you'll see that you know not this is the this is the front corner yeah yeah which is easy to see that but on the sides of the building when you get towards the corners it's the what you're calling the card the postcard type look it's a little bit more uh okay visible and then my other thing was just if we could just work make sure that these things fall down a lot because they they just are temporarily put up there so we could just make sure they're with Town staff that they're always like fixed quickly cuz they just look terrible when they're hanging and flapping in the wind so I don't think that's anything but other than that I'm all set thanks great thank you Mike yeah in terms of any of my um comments on I think that you know the they you know my fellow board members captured it I mean the the white sign sort of struck me as a little bit odd to a little bit out of place compared to the other ones um but again these are temporary so I'm not as you know I'm not as concerned as if it were permanent sign so um so I don't have any any further um any further questions in in that regard um Josh anything from town staff as to that that remaining piece there if they need any type of an extension for putting it longer than the required time they would they would be back in front of the planning board to do uh to do longer than that it it depends how long you are going to keep it up but that's probably the last um potential process that they might have to related to the signage everything else is compliant but it does matter about the time okay great thank you Brian okay um very good is there uh is there anything further from the applicant on this um on this package I think they covered everything is that correct yeah that's everything's covered thank you to the town of ders appreciate working with you all no thank you thank thank you for coming back and for um and for doing those uh for taking our feedback as well at our last meeting so so um uh and again if there's anybody um uh assuming there's no members of the public who has any further questions um uh Josh can we move on to the next item is that yes um I just wanted to make one um just quick announcement um to the board for the board and uh for the public um just um for the if there's anyone in the public who's here for the tras lane item that is a little further on the agenda um I just wanted for your time purposes wanted to let you know that that item is being continued um so just um just to be courteous of your time for this evening if you were here for that item that item will not be discussed tonight so thank you everyone so this just came in relatively um it was it was it was relatively recently this request for a continu came in isn't that correct Josh yeah it was either last night or this morning I can't exactly remember but yes within the last 24 hours got it okay thank you thank you for mentioning chairman do you need a motion to approve the sign package or or no would you like one you know I think that it would be um uh I will take the suggestion move to approve the sign package as shown with input from the town staff as to uh retail signage second very good very good motion's been made by Jim Jim sear second in by Jean hartnet um I'm going to ask for uh uh for a vote on this by by roll call um you say I may or abstain Jean I Jim was that did you say Jim I for Jim yep Jim spittle I Mike dulis I and Lou George says I and pass the unanimously very good thank you very much good luck okay moving on to the next um the next item is the is the public hearing on the subdivision rules and regulations this is the discussion of the new planning board rules and regulations governing the subdivision of land in Danver m massach uh but we had it um we had a discussion at our last meeting and the public hearing was continued to today um following uh a a vote with respect to um one of the the the items within the subdivision rules with respect to um with respect to dead end streets and it's my understanding from town staff that the um that I believe we were awaiting for a a review from Town Council as well so um Josh did you um did you want to give a give us an update where we've been since our last meeting and sort of where we need to go sure so um we did send the um from our last meeting our latest um version um to Town Council who did review it um they did send us in the board uh a response memo with a couple uh comments and just or suggestions and modifications um those um comments and uh edits have been incorporated into this final document um there were so um that's where um and also the item that was discussed at the last meeting about the um dead end streets was modified uh was updated with um the vote of the board on that item also so um where we where we sit now is what we feel as staff uh uh the latest and greatest so okay all right I'm going to go and you know and and turn this over back to the the board for any for any questions or discussion uh about this um uh you know about this these new rules and regulations um so uh why I begin with with Jee har no I don't have any other questions okay thanks Jean uh Jim Sears um I think it might be helpful just to point out the changes to the audience or people that might be watching that and relying on the um presentation for the changes suggested by Town [Music] Council if we can just review quickly thank you J yep no I think that's a great suggestion thank you um Josh for Town staff do you mind um do you mind doing that yep so um one of the sentences that they wanted us to add um is in r on the board but I can read it quickly um please yep uh this is a referring to the section of oh waivers um and this is a sentence they want us to add it said no waiver shall be approved at the preliminary plan stage if waiver is discussed or considered at the preliminary plan stage it is only preliminary and subject to change when the more detailed definitive plans are submitted and considered so essentially I think that's um when you know waivers you know when if they're discussed at the preliminary stage it's it doesn't mean that they're granted it's really at the definitive stage when they're granted so that was I think the impetus for that um let me see sorry I kept it in red and then they wanted us uh on the screen here per for the performance guarantee they want us to write um just the two words at the end of this sentence um referring to perance guy as long as he entire subdivision is secured by one method and then they want us to write the words or another so if it's you know a different type of financial instrument and then at the top of performance guarantee they wanted us to add the sentence before endorsement of its approval of a plan the planning board shall require that the construction of the ways and installation of Municipal Services be secured by one or in part by another or of the methods described in section 54 and then they just wanted us one of their comments was referring to we had put in a sentence um that staff would re would review an application that's dropped off for um a number of days M and then we just modified that sentence um at the end of the sentence we added a couple word uh it it said that we had to notify the clerk of the result of that review and what happens if we don't if we don't notify the clerk from the result of that review that's okay so those were the three items from the Town Council memo that were um modified in the document uh any concerns with respect any of the uh any of these these comments it didn't seem you know anything that was surprising uh not to me I just oh yeah I just my only opposition is the the U requirement of a um waiver being needed for a uh called this act now and I just think that's an extra burden on a property owner who wants to develop his or her land I've been on the board for since the late 90s and everything we've approved in town has been called the sax there's not been that I can unless I'm mistaken I'd be love to be corrected but everything at least in the last 20 years has been called the SEC so why we're going to force um a property owner to now get a vote before they can bring the application uh waving um that it's that's a new requirement I'm not sure why we're doing it in light of the fact that there's extremely less developable land than than there ever was uh in town so now we're going to throw this in I just don't see the need for it everything else is fine but I'm not going to vote for it because of that so thank you okay understood thank you Jim um Tim spitt yeah no additional comments besides you know beyond what was discussed at the last meeting thanks okay very good um Mike dulis any any comments or or questions with respect to this um to the um uh to the revised subdivision um rules no additional comments thanks Lou okay sure um and I don't have anything um I don't think I don't have anything further myself in terms of the um you know in terms of what I said at the uh at our at our last meeting um uh with respect to the um you know to the to with respect to the cuis acts and the um you know and the uh and the um and the and the new language that uh that prohibits then minus a waiver um you know in terms of my uh you know as I as I explained and I I I understand the concerns I I understand the concerns but um but uh but I believe that in terms of the concerns in terms of you know connectivity as well as the the fact that you know as well as other communities have adopted this as well and it's a um uh and and indeed waivers have been granted um I'm um I believe that the that the benefits um you know um you know would would certainly without weigh any any concerns but that's uh as I explained at the last U at the last meeting so um so I would be in favor of these um these revised regulations so uh this is a this is a public hearing so if there's any members of the public uh they can um they can come to the podium and uh and speak on this um there are two members um I guess I guess m Mr moros I guess okay you can go to the podium and Jim Mor town meeting member did I just over talk him okay Jim Mor town meeting prec 3 just a quick question so these the subdivision rules and regulations are these Standalone sub rules and regulations are they going to be part of the zoning bylaw changes that we're uh going to go over that are in the special town meeting uh sure these are going to be go ahead Brian yeah so um subdivision um in and of itself is definitely outside of zoning uh subdivision is not zoning it's not part of 40a for Mass General law it's its own it's its own thing so that's why subdivision is uh subdivision rules and rs are be able are able to be changed just by the planning board themselves whereas any zoning Amendment needs town meeting okay thank you okay great Mr thanks for the question Jim Mr McKenna thank you Mr chairman I have a question about I don't know if it's in the bylaw now or not I think it should be though yourself for the record when you oh sorry David McKenna 33 Andover Street precinct 8 town meeting member sorry um I don't know if it's in the sub position control l or not I I know the state does not require public not for an an anr subdivision which is approval not required I think the town if they were able to should because I know of at least three subdivisions in my neighborhood that slip by that shouldn't have on buckon road piece of rosewood's land was subdivided for three house slots even though there had been a court settlement with a provision that that land would remain open space somebody forgot about it it went through by the time we found about a neighborhood they were already digging foundations the other was on Cemetery Road planning board gave a um subdivision for three lots with Frontage on a private driveway that the applicant did not have any rights to so and there was another one where they almost subdivided a lot on bucken road there was part of another piece of property that had been limited by Court action to three lots that had already been built and they were trying to subdivide for fourth one I caught that one and notified the planning department is that something that the town can Implement I think it's something that they should if it's happened three times within a quarter mile of my home how many times does it happen around the rest of town and how many more times can it happen is that something we can I know the state doesn't require it but can the town require it to the town D can we fur can I ask the town staff to answer that question um so can can we do it yes yes we can no it's not required as you know uh it's a cost that would you know would be would be bored and a a decision would have to be made not not by not by really us um but but yes we can do it you could do it in the uh subdivision rules and regs however I would want to have that okayed by Council before doing that but the in short I think it's I think it's a yes I'll be very fully honest I am not 100% sure because no town does this that I know of uh it's just not it's just not done so there would be something new not that that's a horrible idea it's just that there's not a lot of precedent so I would probably want to see what they had to say uh we wouldn't have to put it in the subdivision rules and regs to do that however for that notification it could be a policy for examp example so there's a couple different ways to cut that if I could Mr chair I let your request that the board and the department consider looking into doing that I think it could save a lot of aggregation aggravation down the line thank you just to clarify Mr M what you're saying is when someone comes in for an anr approval not required of a subdivision it's on our agenda but there's no AB butter notice so AB Butters are not receiving notices to clarify what you're saying so the public can understand that's correct I think the public should have some kind of notice whether it be next to a Butters or some just something in the newspaper I think there should be some kind of notice just so the rest of people in the neighborhood who might have information about the history of the property would be aware that there's a subdivision being planned but even if they have notice right typically that's not something they can comment on at a meeting because it's an administrative hearing so so I'm not sure what you would gain by that they could at least make the department aware restriction on the on the land aware of I'm not sure where they're making their own Weare they're allowed to subdivide their land if they meet zoning requirements and they bring in a plan that meets engineering requirements so what what is the ab butter gain by being notified I guess is the question I'm just trying to play it out for for your all for the the example on Rosewood property that land was dedicated by court order to be remain open space town was forgot about it apparently and a subdivision came in as anr for three lots and was granted nobody knew about it in the neighborhood until they started digging Sellar holes the other property was approved with Frontage on a private driveway that the property owner did not have any rights to so he's sitting there with the three law sub division that he can't use unless he gets access I'm sorry unless he gets access to the public way yeah right so someone who owns the private way would have to Grant him access mhm and that other property like I said was had a court limit on how many times it could be subdivided and they were going for they they allowed three subd three lots by by court order they were starting to go for a four threat so the found the uh survey Stakes out there and talk to Aaron Henry to let him know that there was a restriction on it and apparently the project up pulled yeah but again if if the neighbors who know about the properties more than town hall probably does you have a turnover and staff turnover in the board they don't necessarily remember what happened 15 20 years ago the neighbors these are somewhat unique cases that you're mentioning though because you're dealing with a Cemetery in private ways and and things like that these are not your average nextdoor neighbor you know hey I'm subdividing my 40,000 ft lot into two lots I'm in a residence too I mean this is these are unique somewhat to your property or a buing but but again three incidents within a quarter mile of my home over the last 15 years how many times do it happen someplace else yeah I'm not sure if it's happened but I don't but I understand you're saying but wouldn't someone have spoke up on the the larger one the three lot subdivision with the court order and still something could be done on that you could have halted the construction even though they started digging they had already started digging foundations but you could halt the discussion the construction if there's we could if there's a court order I would think yeah I don't know you know yeah okay yeah I just don't know I mean it's a it's a formality if they meet all the requirements they're on the agenda they give us a plan that's been done engineered correctly we pretty much have to approve it unless we don't take any public are not aware of we don't take any public input okay we're not required to under the law so I'm not sure what I understand you know what you're asking for I'm not sure we can even Grant it or or why we would Grant it that's all all right I know what staff things thank you coming back to staff what do you what are your thoughts with respect to that in terms of especially you know U Jim's points in terms of that that because the anr process is you know Essence doesn't you know by its nature doesn't have you know doesn't allow public comment and even if they're so if an anr maybe was not suited to be an anr in retrospect the even if someone was proper you was was notified they they wouldn't have had the ability to um to say anything in terms of this this is not like there was a public hearing yeah so I I would agree it's kind of like a false sense that you can come that you could change this process or have a voice in the process but someone could easily make the cases just for notification purposes which is what I think which is what I think um uh you know Mr McKenna is making is just for notification purposes but I I would say that it's not like a special permit or site plan review or variance where the idea is to take in public comment that's not the idea of an anr in like by definition it's in the name so that's why it's extremely unique um but I mean yeah I I I can't really comment much more I I uh what is in butter notice cost so if you're going to require that on your application for an anr then the planning staff has to notify but is within 300 feet and that requires certified male not certified male but I mean depending on the situation it could be you know if there's a condominium complex it could be 200 you know could be 200 250 you know letters for an anr you know what I mean I'm not I'm not trying to sway that as like no I know we get them I'm down by the mall my office is down at the mall we getbody doesn't noce that is a possibility so who pays that cost the applicant would have to pay that cost for notifying someone where they can't even don't speak at the meeting so I just so so they they just pay the cost of the legal ad in the paper the there's no legal ad for an or sorry for um so sorry they don't pay the cost of the of the mailings it would just be the filing fee when they just the filing fee and which is you know generally cheaper than other applications right because what it is but who would pay though so who would pay if you begin to to require a notification would that be something that would be born on the I guess we would have to decide We could decide who is doing the about notification I guess that would be the the next step if we were open or wanting to do it so well and then you know maybe the fee would go up slightly to cover the cost or you know to do that it's probably it's honestly not so much of a money thing it's probably more of an admin kind of timing time thing to do these types of things when there's there like like we've talked about there's no there's no real public comment for these types of of subdivisions or anrs subdivisions are different right okay um I'm going to see what what the other just to get a sense of the board we heard from um Jim expressed some concerns um um uh uh Tim spidle yeah I mean I can see the examples you brought are very helpful it does sound like from what Jim's saying right that even in those instances those might have been sort of corner cases that we don't have much control over so I can see both sides of one well what does it cost really just to make more people aware that might shake out some more information that would be helpful to staff since those Corner cases were missed in previous examples but I also agree that having recently uh participated in my first anr I was like that's it you know we don't really have that much to do in those so so I can see that it does create a a bit more work for very little upside um and so I do wonder you know it is presented in the agenda for example are there ways that we can just better advertise I for example get the agendas for all of the select board and school board meetings emailed to me every time you know that could just be a way that we could encourage people to to to keep up on on what's being discussed without adding that ad additional administrative overhead okay great thanks Tim um Mike do you have anything to add on this one did you have a comment before I don't no oh so okay um no I don't think I have anything at this time L thanks okay um Jean did you have anything further on on on on on on this particular question that uh that Dave M raised yeah I think kind of the bigger question on these anrs is why are restrictions not like why are they kind of falling through the cracks and is there a way to that we can like flag things uh I mean I can't I can't speak to things that happened before I was here I'll start there um but we we do a deep a deep a dive that is possible within the registry and our files so that's what that that's what we do if someone didn't file something at the registry or if there's something that's misplaced that happens sometimes I would not say that that is uh you know running the show um yeah and I can I can only say that I mean these are strange cases that are uh like again not the norm but um there's also there's a lot of debate there in terms of what we're talking about in general okay thanks br um yeah I mean my own thought is is just I'm a little bit you know I mean I I definitely understand the the the concerns and and you could I could you know you could certainly see that a a case where an anr may have you know you know potentially and again I'm not saying about anything happened in the past but you know but you could imagine you know that potentially an anr could go through that that maybe that maybe should not have been that something was you know was not was not uncovered on a on a Deeds a record search but the concern I have though is that the whole is this the nature of the Anar process is um is that because you know comment isn't you know is not um you know is not taken at the meeting it's a very administrative it's an administrative item it doesn't um you know I would be concerned with adding more to the process that doesn't exist or an expectation to a process that doesn't exist so that's sort of a reservation that I would have um in terms of of going in terms of incorporating this as part of the subdivision control I mean in terms of part of you know in terms of dealing with the subdivision rules one of the the the I mean one potential I think is we could always you know I think Brian said you this could be something that could go into a um you know that could potentially be a you know a policy and I'm not sure if that's even if that's worth sta looking into whether that should be you know whether that should be looked into so but I'm just not you know I'm I'm a little bit you know I'm leery about including it um at this at this moment just because of again because of the the nature of the process I thank the bo for the consideration I hope you'll think about it because even if they can't come and speak at a meeting because it's public meeting and a public hearing they can always notify the pled P that hey you look into this on this piece of property there's an issue and then they know it ahead of time thank you and Merry Christmas to everybody to um same to I was just going to say um Lou and the board um there is someone on the uh the teams meeting who I believe wanted to make a comment before we moved on um okay sure just before we move on to that that comment though just with a you know just with respect to this you know to Mr McKenna's you know suggestion here and I don't want to you know it doesn't appear here that the um and again I'm not you I don't want to put any words but it it doesn't appear that the board is um is interested in adding something to the to the to the you know to the subdivision rules uh proposal that we have before us tonight but is that something is it something that the rest of the board wants it to be you know wants the you know staff to look into or you know in terms of as as part of a policy or not at all I mean I I I think Jean's Point's a good one right that we have some examples in front of us of things falling through the cracks so perhaps when anrs come in front of us we can be a bit more Discerning about understanding the information that was made available in the search that was conducted um and staff could consider in certain situations to just potentially connect with the butters to the extent um there's there's not much information available okay got so sort of leaving it on a case-by Case basis I would think so okay got it okay anything further from anybody on that no okay all right thank you I think question yeah we also had someone online as well that has been had their hand up y yep absolutely yep if you can just if you can identify yourself for the record and uh and ask your question she's muted oh yeah please unmute yourself there I am sorry sorry about that um Joanne vuchi town meeting member uh Precinct 2 I just wanted to um thank David McKenna for bringing up that issue um I think it happens around town a little bit more often than anyone realizes and not to you know anyone's discredit or anything like that um we're all busy but I think the pl I really kind of urge the planning board to look into something like this um similar because there the public feels the residents in different neighborhoods mine in particular right now in Precinct too um feels that they're left out of the process the transparency is not there with this the new subdivisions and development that's happening in town um for example there was a um very tough zoning board meeting last Monday Tuesday Monday night and a lot of the residents including myself is are upset it's 181 to 182 Pine Street that lot was supposed to be left it was promised by the owners of 75 silven Street it was supposed to be left as open space and as a buffer between 75 silven and the neighborhood hide Pine and so forth well come to find out that slice of land and I think some more towards Adams Street was sold to a developer last May and now he wants to subdivide it he wants seven or eight condos or something like that he wants eight but he's looking probably seven that he um a lot of some of the neighbors didn't get notice on this you know this is you know everyone's kind of surprised at it and I think if we don't let the residents know more about what's going on there's going to be you know a lot more meetings like last Monday night with a lot of unhappy people um and I think it's I think it's I know it's hard to add something to the process and I I but I think the town needs to because I think the town needs to take a breath with all this new development that is coming down the pipe and be able to really know what the developers want to build on 181 through 182 Pine Street is part of the old Sylvania plan so now you're talking that was supposed to be open space it's not uh I did request the select board to look into why that was never captured by the town as get into a specific yeah we don't want to get I'm not getting into it I'm not but I'm just using that as a really good example here that okay David David McKenna is you know the three in his in his Precinct now he has one in mine that hasn't been developed yet but is a prime example of we need to do a little more research on what's going on with this land these lands because now we're talking about environmental issues we're talking about this need to be a buffer so what I'm saying is there needs to be something else in the process here um and I I like that David I just want to say thank you David for bringing this up and it's very important and I urge the board to look into this more deeply um as adopting this in the process and I know the select board's looking into it and there's going to be a lot more conversations about it so I I wouldn't I could I understand your reservations on the public doesn't get to comment for the anr and things like that but if we could adopt something similar that's not the anr that the public has more of a say in when they're putting in for the subdivision it might be something that the town needs to look at closely so thank you David for for for bringing that into the conversation it's very important right now thank you thank you for your that's all I havek thank you thank you no thank you okay very good any um uh any further any further comments at all or any um any other sort of uh um any other questions with respect to the uh what was discussed Lou there's a there's two public comments so if if you could just go to the microphone Mr again yeah just quickly Jim Rose tell meting preing three just under advisement I I kind of chuckle every time I I read these things where we have to post things in the local newspaper you know the newspapers are like last century we we have you know we got the down website we got all this technology we need to have a better way of of of advertising or at least publicizing these things that are happening on the website and just have hey heads up this is coming I don't and and it could be not only just for the planning board for for all the Departments there needs to be some kind of way the citizens can get a quick look at what's going down that's it's over and above the agenda's come out yeah it's beautiful but okay sure so um can I just speak very briefly so just so while people are here and listening there there's two ways that you can find out about what what's going on that's very easy that you just have to sign up once if you go to the main web page and at the bottom it says notify me when you click on that you can click on any border committee if you're interested in anrs or anything about the planning board you just click on the planning board and then you get email however you want it I believe it's the email as a PDF or or um or notifications any way you'd like um so you don't so it so you're not waiting on town to push things out uh once you just sign up for it once you you will forever get those the other way is the um the planning and Economic Development Division we put out permitting updates every month uh where we say the petitions that we've gotten in decisions that have been made by all the regulatory boards planning board zoning board Conservation Commission um and those are on the planning and economic developments website so you can go to those at any time and we have every you know we do it every month so that's a permitting update um so those are two ways that uh people can get informed uh the easiest way would be again the main page at the bottom on the left it says notify me and you can sign up for alerts uh for um any border committee not just not just the regulatory boards thank you back to you Lou okay thanks thanks Brian I I was going to go and sort of second that point in terms of the um uh in terms of as you know as even Tim alluded to earlier mentioning about getting the email um you know email of agenda and I think the I think the permitting um updates are great I think they're very helpful and they're they're helpful to know um what's on you know what's coming along down the pike u i mean but I I defin I do hear though I I hear the you know I hear I definitely hear residents concerns though about you know about making being advised about things that are that are affecting them and so um you know definitely I I hear you um but I just wanted to point out as well that there's some you know that there are some ways available right now to uh to be able to uh to at least you know keep a keep a breast on things so um is there a further um I think Josh you said there was another question or comment from the audience yep you can identify yourself and I'm Karen nastic I'm new to these meetings because I didn't know that this building was happening the building downtown was happening but mostly I agree that um we've lost a lot of communication in danvas over the last since Co we don't have Mna Fe talking you know friendly telling us what's going on in neighborhoods and stuff and it's been very hard on people who are older who haven't switched I mean people are canceling their newspaper subscription so to say that four-page newspaper is worth much it's really not it's really not something we rely on so something has to be done on a large scale to keep residents informed whether there's a bulletin board and I I looked at some of these minutes and I the public hearing it's very you know you have to refer and refer and refer and refer you don't get an overall of what's going on and it's it's really hard to see these things going on and happening so quickly when we didn't even know they were happening but mostly you know if and also in the name of neighborliness just let let make sure that the communication happens and things that are happening on your street but not you know somewhat legally so a letter gets sent or a phone call gets made you know have have we informed everybody on the street that there's a subdivision coming over and then if someone says oh it's affecting my driveway you know you've got a communication going and it can happen more organically if you can establish a respect to to make sure that people get notified I guess that's it thank you no thank you very much thank you very much for that uh one more for that comment you if you could just please speak in the microphone did you talk about the logo design at all or did they just you're just using words for the maple thing I don't know why we just didn't use a maple leaf instead of more hardcore words uh it might have been friendlier and more natural that's all thank you yeah thank you um there I believe that was a conceptual go ahead sorry um I was just wanted to let you know there are two more public U members of the public who would like to speak um if Kathy if you would you go to the mic that would be great yeah can you please identify yourself and um and state your comment or question thank you hi this is Kathy Simon um uh Tom me member Precinct 7 for the chair I was curious I I feel like we got a little off track uh I came here for this meeting because I understood that the your planning board was going to vote today on dead end streets uh I did my homework on that and I was ready to make a case um if you weren't going my way and uh I was just wondering is have you uh changed your I through the chair I was wondering if maybe we could find out where you stand on them and do I have to make my case um for you if you're changing your votes tonight well the the today the you know we have not had a vote on the subdivision rules and regulations as of yet we at our last meeting we did have a vote with respect to the the issue of dead end streets based on some discussions that were held at the prior meeting so there were several Alternatives that were that were discussed at the last meeting and the and the measure that was was voted on that is now in the proposal to be voted on tonight uh includes a um includes a Prohibition on new Dead End streets absent a waiver but there is language in there with respect to um to a waiver does that um and I want to say make sure um does that uh does that answer your your question and town staff please jump in if I uh I'm since I'm speaking remotely here I want to make sure I get everything straight see seems accurate okay so did the language I guess the question then would be does the language that you received from Council um since we don't have privilege to read these items that you have um um does it change your vote in any way I would through the chair could we maybe find out if your vote has changed based on the information you received the vote was there's no vote yet made in the middle of the we're in the middle of the public comment on the agenda item so it has not gone to a vote yet to answer your question okay so yep in order not to be out of order as soon as soon ask finish your question and the other question he'll bring it to a make my case then this is the appropriate time thank you so thanks CH for squaring me away again um so my issue is um dead end streets I am not in favor of um of um cart Blan making allowances for any developer to come in and put yet another Dead End Street for a few reasons um one uh as Jim said uh we there's very little land left in our town um we should be doing our jobs which I know you are um um in scrutinizing um projects that come before us uh I what comes to mind is the um Locust Street project recently we had a a big construction projects on Locust Street um because all of our streets are dead ends uh there was very little DPW could do in order to detour our traffic um to other areas um but more importantly um with very little land left um um and we know um that developers will then find large properties or older homes that have larger acreage and they will find those and then uh then be privileged to without any kind of waiver U to just put in another culdesac I am not in favor of more culde saacs in our town I'd like us to be smarter in our planning I'd like us to use our land better I'd like more open space more green space in our town and I hope you consider um that thank you thank you very much is there any other public uh any other public questions or comments there there are two yep there are two other members of the public wishing to discuss this item sure absolutely good evening Jim Simon town meeting member of Precinct 7 um I I also am in favor of uh uh limiting the dead ends and called the sax and what I have here is uh a memoir from our previous fire chief I believe he retired in 1991 Leland Martin and it's about the the history of the danvas fire department it's very good it's a very good read and uh in here in uh 1979 it is this was the year that I went head-to-head with the residents of longbo Road and senica drive before the planning board board I wanted a connector Road between summer and Locust streets the neighbors were vehemently opposed and I lost that battle I was opposed to dead end streets then and I am today and uh he wrote this in 91 and uh from a firefighter perspective the Dead End Street is can be very very dangerous and uh cumbersome to work uh In the End of This Book it's really fascinating the gas explosions that we had at Beaver Park we had 25 fire companies there and you got those dead end streets Roosevelt D and uh Lafayette things like that now a truck taking care of a fire the first house down Lafayette AV that street is blocked heaven forbid now there's a medical emergency down at the end and also the fact that the uh hydrant line is a dead end if there's a problem you can't get fire from the next street over and stuff so that's just all I wanted to say about that from a historical perspective okay thank [Applause] you thank you any further um I think you said there was another member of the public Josh yep Mr Mr Brad street okay and identify yourself for the record Bill Brad street town meeting me Precinct one I'm old I've lived in Damas all my life some of the people who are moving into town have very little uh knowledge about what this town was like how it grew we need someone who pays attention I was disappointed to hear that the not in the town but disappointed to hear that the town wasn't aware about a decision was made many years ago which is now being ignored in a sense having said that not all of us are have a computer or use a computer a computer literate as far as getting information out to the public every house has an electric meter or every building has one house everyone gets an electric bill I see nothing wrong and I've brought it up before if there's information that the town as a whole in neighborhoods should be aware can't the town put a filler in the bill if the public refuses or doesn't care about it they can ignore it I don't care about the money it's the money is part of it the idea is it's the cost of doing business and we want business in this town to be responsible and fair to everyone put a filler in the bill and everybody knows to me it's a small expense we'll spend money on some things to me it's a simple way to solve the problem so that everyone is aware that they can sign sign up without having to go to a computer and looking for it that they can sign up for a notification again if it comes to a house with a electric meter they know or should know if they refuse or choose to ignore it and shame on them for bringing up later on I didn't know well you were given the information on such and such a time whatever that was when you should have brought it forward it's trying to be proactive not reactive I just I listen to some of what said I like people asking questions and getting good answers now whether I'm asking a good question or I'm getting a good answer it's not it's not important to me it's important that the town knows everyone who lives in this town knows business resident knows what's going on in this town and a simple filler and the electric bill would be one way thank you for your time thank you just with respect to that question I guess question to town staff and this is coming from someone who um we still get our electric bill in the mail I know you know a lot of people do it online um and so uh and I I do see the fillers that we get on occasion you know that that come in there is that um has has that something that that planning and economic development is has ever included in terms of the filler if anything just to say if you want a town update here's how to get it or here's who to contact if you'd like to be kept informed of these of things that are coming down the PIP so planning and economic development has not used that but yes the town does uh we piggyback on on existing bills to do that so that's something that we we do um we can easily do a mailing and and to to notify people about notify me uh um we do know that almost it's true that many people are uh don't either it's usually they choose not to use a computer but everyone almost everybody has a phone and a lot that's a lot of the time that's actually how the people that I end up talking with end up getting notified is is through their phone so um in short we we can do both of those uh we we do it already uh we have not had a recent mailer meaning our division but that's typically we wouldn't really do we really wouldn't send out a mailer on that quarterly basis or or what what um or I guess it would yeah because project by project you basically get it in and then it's in one month you're you're hearing it it's just not fast enough to plan around those so people that actually want to be informed actually need to get engaged to enact change right but I guess that all being said is if there's a way that the that that town staff can look into even just providing people the you know maybe a further opportunity to request information and even if let's say you don't have access to an easy access to a computer here's the number that you can that you can call if you have questions or even to to to get on a on a phone you know text alert or something like that so that you know so you're not ask you so at least it gives them the ability to at least make that engagement because I think people don't you know are not necessarily aware of all the you know that um of the information that that is available and so you know so I think that um if there's a a way that we can sort of you know sort of taking Mr Brad Street's comments into into consideration I think that would be uh I think that would make sense just to look into agreed okay okay very good any further um any further public um uh public comments or questions looks like we have one more sure okay let's go to the podium and introduce yourself please hi Andrea banado I live on um Pine Street and I'm here with some of the neighbors um because we want to know a little bit more about what's going on I know you're giggling you think it's kind of funny that people that are older um my age and older maybe they don't know maybe they don't have a you know way of communicating using um the computer there's a lot of baby boomers now a lot and they're in town they're upset um they didn't know about a lot of the changes that are going on um the gentleman that spoke earlier with the hat he's absolutely right like stuff is happening everywhere in this town and nobody really knows what's happening I mean I downtown and I see this big huge building erected and I'm trying to figure out where people are going to go like there's not enough space um they're looking to build on our street on Pine Street on a on a building that was making light bulbs for years and I don't know if they're going to check that soil but guarantee they're going to find a few things so I know this maybe is not the time and place for all of this but we really need to be able to inform the public people like getting their light bulll in the mail cuz you you get confused there's so much stuff that comes through your email or on your phone you get busy we don't know what's going on you know and we we want to be informed I just signed up for notify me so I'm going to be notified now good but we we really need to have direct communication and we have to understand that we're all not like some of the people in the room I mean I am cuz I'm in business but a lot of people aren't and I don't want to poo poo them and act like they're s because maybe they don't have you know communication a lot of these older people but they're in the community they pay their taxes and now they have all these buildings going up and houses and and on land that they didn't even know was happening so we really need to stay connected to the community I walk down my sidewalk a lot and there's always trees that are growing into the sidewalk and I see old people walking on it before you guys make plans to build something go down and look at it at least you know I mean I don't know if you are or not but if you went down and you looked at some of these spaces you may say someone might get a little bit upset if we build here right just by looking at the traffic pattern and trying to figure out if we have enough you know EMTs and service people to actually help people if something happens so I'm very worried and I'm not the only one and and believe me the people in daners are going to to speak up cuz there's a whole bunch of people that maybe are not here tonight but there's Flyers going out communities getting together and you're going to see that more people are going to show up wait till the next meeting I'm not kidding so you really need to start to consider some of this it's kind it's getting me upset like just thinking hey maybe we do we put a flyer out don't we put a flyer out so these people be involved absolutely they should know if someone is putting a humongous structure next to house because it's going to change traffic it's going to change environment and people haven't even talked about the rats that are going to come out of the ground building all over the place so that's all I have to say but I really think you need to start to thinking about the community and communicating with people thank you and I just want to add just in terms of your in terms of comments I mean I'm participating remotely here tonight but in terms of I don't think light in terms of any comments that people are making in terms of ability to get documentation by mail as opposed to computer as I mentioned I get my you know I get I still get my utility bill in the mail um and I am you know and and all of us here are invested and concerned in you know have a concern about our town community and about our community members um I'm you know I grew up in in dandras um as born here I grew up on Water Street not that far from a from a cing cook leather tary so I'm you know I'm I'm aware of of effects of Industry uh with respect to residences so without going any further into that but I just wanted to um you know uh just to just to you know point you know just to say that uh um I I can I I hear your points and um I won't say anything further on that uh is there any um any further comments or questions from members of the of the public with ECT to our uh subdivision rules and uh and regulations seems like there's there's one there's another comment from the public yep last one I promise Mark goth 181 Pine yourself for the record um just I would request that when we get into this next topic that you guys speak our language and not your language a lot of inside baseball going on here tonight so I would like to understand how the public get access to the subdivision rules regulations the zoning byw amendments all these policies how do we get access to it so we can read it and understand it we're here to learn tonight because we're here to push back y so I just ask you speak our language thank you question uh Josh ran where where can the public uh locate this information with respect to subdivision regulations and the in the zoning byog I mean it it'll be on the website tomorrow if it's not up there now but um on the website be on the planning website the planning and economic development what the planning and economic development we can also double post it on the planning board site so there's no confusion um all of the Amendments um will be up there we're going to talk tonight we're opening up the hearing things could change throughout the course of the hearing this might be open for more you know certainly more than one meeting but the idea is that whenever there are changes that are voted on by the board we would put those changes up as well but we we have to make them available so it's it's not like anyone's trying to uh hide them many people have already requested them paper copies we've given it to them some some people have requested digital folder copies we've G I mean we have to give these to you so we're not trying to do any yeah trying to do anything I'm happy to give it to yeah we can speak after great thank you yeah I just think Mr Brad Street's idea as well intended is just not practical because putting a flyer in every month's electric bill as to what's on the agenda for not just this board but the zba the concom and maybe the select board is a cost and that cost would be passed on to the taxpayers and we have selectman present uh so maybe you can ask them to change the law at the town meeting and put that in the budget but any time you put a flyer in a electric bill there could be 30,000 electric bills there could be 40,000 electric bills that go out by mail um so who's going to pay the cost of that and by the time you receive it the meeting might have been last night but by the time you open your mail so it's really not practical as we said to do it by mail I'm sorry that and I understand that not everyone has access to a computer there are computers at the library there's access on you know cell phones if someone wants to be informed it's in the town website everything we're doing is is is public it's on the town website our agenda's there everything is there I think going backwards to doing things by paper I think you you occasionally see something in your electric bill maybe once a quarter for a charity or something like that but to require the town electric Department to pay stuffers to add an additional piece of paper where we're trying to get away from paper you know there could be there could be tens of thousands of electric pills that go out you might have a four family house uh and you know you're going to have four four meters and a common meter you know it's just that I think you know while it may have worked 10 20 years ago we're using the computers we're using the town website the information is out there the information is provided and I I appreciate your attendance in coming to this meeting we don't want to make this confrontational remember we're volunteers we're lifelong or you know they're about not all of us but I'm a lifelong resident of the town and we volunteer our time and effort to uh you know have these meetings and we've been appointed uh by the town manager to be in this role so you know we need to be I think um I don't know why this has turned confrontational but I know your item is going to come up but not at today's agenda it will be coming up in the future and that's your opportunity to to comment on that uh and you will be informed of it so that's all I have L I would call a question so we can move on we're going to be here on midnight at this point so we can get a vot on this it's already almost you know 8:30 on this second item okay very good all right I think we um have a motion to uh I think we have a motion to call the question close the hearing we need a we need a motion to close the public hearing move to close the public hearing okay second okay is it motion close the public hearing first was by Jim who was the second Mike Mike Sor Mike okay very good it's been moved been seconded um all in favor of closing the public hearing I'm going to do a roll call um Jee hartnet yes M seers yes him P yes Mike Dulas yes and L George says yes okay okay yeah moving on to the um moving on to the actual item in terms of the subdivision rules and regulations I'd like to entertain a motion I make a motion that we vote on the subdivision rules and regulations as they are written okay very good it's been moved by Jean is there a second second is that by Tim spittle y it's right okay very good it's been moved and seconded any discussion on the motion then we'll have a have a vote on it I will do a a roll call vote either yay nay or abstain uh Jean yay Jim nay him yay Mike yay and Lou George says yay so it uh uh it passes uh 4 to one okay very good thank you very much thank you for all the comments and for the discussion today okay let's move on to the next um agenda item Town staff um Josh and Brian is there anything further we need with respect to the subdivision rules uh no I don't think so no okay very good okay um so the third item tras Lane partial release of Covenant it's a request for a partial release of a covenant established on August 28th 1972 which is associated with the definitive subdivision plan intitled proposed access to fly Hill development Danver Massachusetts end quot in dated June second 1972 And also known as tras Lane danver's Mass okay so this is an item I believe that town staff has some um I believe this has an update about this um yeah wouldn't wouldn't get too much into this item in that they did ask for so the applicant did submit an email for a request of a continuance this item for the next meeting so MH I think that's what we that's all we should probably say at this time on the item okay and it was the request to continue this item to our next regularly scheduled meeting on January 14th 2025 okay great okay very good um okay so it's been um I guess then in this case would you know since it has been since the applicant has requested a continuance and we don't want to discuss the the merits of the matter further um I'd like to entertain a motion Jean can you um uh can you make a motion yeah I make a motion we continue tras Lane partial release of Covenant to the next meeting January 14th 2025 second very good it's been moved by Jean there a second and with that by Mike Mike yep thanks okay very good it's been moved and seconded I'm going to ask for a roll call vote uh beginning with uh Jan yes Jim SE yes him spitt yes Mike Dulas yes and Lou George says yes okay so it's been continued uh to our uh to our next meeting of January 14th 2025 okay thank you okay let's move on to our um next agenda item this is a public hearing on the zoning bylaw amendments and we today will be receiving an overview from staff of the proposed zoning bylaw amendments for the special town meeting of February 3rd 2025 the public hearing is regarding several updates to the following sections of the zoning bylaw for purposes of clarity consistency and reflection of current Massachusetts regulations Section four site plan review section 7 dimensional requirements section 10 off street parking standards section 18 character based zoning districts section 27 groundwater Protection District by law section 30 special per section 31 flood plane overlay District section 37 sign by law new section 38 outdoor lighting standards section 40 definitions table one table of allowable uses table 1 a Civic space districts schedule of uses table two table of dimensional requirements residential the hearing also includes the following proposed zoning map amendments one is to include 141 Pine Street map 50 parcel 87 and 46 Pine Street map 5050 parel 98 into the taple bill overlay District this would not change the underlying zoning District which would remain residential one R1 the other zoning map Amendment includes moving certain Town own Parcels from Civic space institution institutional CS in to Civic space open space csos zoning districts in the inclusion of other Town own Parcels into the Civic space open space csos zoning District okay is there a um I believe Brian Zak Kelly will you be presenting uh yes I'm here okay why don't you identify yourself and go ahead sure um hi my name is Brian Zak Kelly I'm the planning director here in Danvers um tonight's agenda um we're going to talk very kind of briefly about uh why we're here for special town meeting and then we're going to have a discussion we're going to open up to the public um we would most likely not be or we will definitely not be voting on any anything this evening um in order to keep it open uh so that later on if there are any changes whether uh throughout this public process uh or from other boards and committees that would be potentially weighing in we would incorporate potentially incorporate those those comments so um no votes this evening we just kind of try to introduce um and have a have a discussion uh so the main reason that we are here um is that um we are afforded uh typically once a year to change uh to change the zoning here in Danvers uh there's new state law there's new case law that we have to incorporate into our zoning bylaw um another thing over time is uh we find that there are certain inconsistencies when additions were made so we we we clean up those as we see them as they become problematic so uh this this uh special town meeting in February is not meant to be kind of major policy change that there are Town meetings when when that is the case case uh there are a few minor policy changes that we're going to highlight this evening but just to be clear this is this is not one of those Town meetings that we plan on doing any major policy changes uh and if we find there to be extremely major policy changes which at the moment there aren't but sometimes throughout that process people can put in things that uh potentially could be um uh inconsistent so um this is where we are at the moment I think since there are a lot of um there's a lot of different uh sections that we're touching I think if I went through the entire I'm going to go to the board here I think if I went through the entire thing and then go back I don't know if we would get the best discussion or comments from even the the board I was thinking of going through each section and then when we're finished with that section open it up for comments and questions and then kind of keep moving on paying attention to as Jim said not being here till midnight because this is not our only opportunity this will be continued to the next uh next time and potentially further okay sorry for the long-winded introduction I think that that approach makes sense and also keeping in mind too that any you know that that that that that certainly if we cover let's say section you know we had questions about section 31 today at our next meeting we may talk for certainly about section 31 again yes uh for people that were either unable to make it tonight um we would go through the same um uh the same sequence as well thank you for bringing that up um good thank you these are all the sections that we're going to be talking about um this evening some of these are frankly very quick they're very um well I'm going to go through it some of them are the opposite of controversial things we have to do that everyone agrees with everyone wants flood insurance right yeah we got to do this in order to get flood insurance for example there are others that are are going to be you know not so simple so um so we have a flood plane bylaw so local flood plane uh and um our local flood plane overlay district has been established by as a federal requirement for any homeowner to receive uh flood insurance so the federal government makes us have this flood plane bylaw that that essentially um uh outli where the flood planes are in town and what your risk for flooding is um from time to time those maps are updated and we need to reflect those current maps so if we don't reflect as I said just earlier if we don't reflect these current maps people would not be able to get flood insurance um um through FEMA so we're simply updating this bylaw to reflect these newly created FEMA Maps um this the bylaw that we have uh again we already have one on file uh uh within sorry within our zoning bylaw this has actually already been pre- reviewed by FEMA as of two weeks ago so they've given us a soft approval of everything looks good uh the actual Maps panel numbers which is actually the main thing that we're changing we're referencing the right Maps those won't get issued till mid January so we will reference those those new numbers when we get them in January that is the end all be all for this change for the flood plane it's as easy as it's going to come for me this evening so hopefully there are not too many questions nothing from the board any questions from any members of the any members of the board I think I scared them just a little bit okay um I'm just going to keep moving because let's take the time that we need to take for other things and move through the things that we don't need to take time on fair enough signage so very exciting topic so we we amended the sign bylaw at um February of this year uh town meeting uh moving the sign requirements located in various zoning districts all into one section section 37 under the current situation signs are actually re regulated by two separate sets of rules now we have section 37 which is all of our signage but there are zoning regulations of the planning board so these are outside of the zoning that actually regulate the signage downtown so now all what we're doing here is taking those zoning regulations from outside of zoning bringing them into zoning to memorialize them so that when people uh when applicants come in they know everything if you want to talk about signage you go to that chapter everything that you need is right there you don't need to go to the planning board zoning regulations that's outside of the zoning in order to find that so more of a cleanup no Lang no language is changing not a word is changing it's it's it's putting those regulations that are outside inside the zoning the board you are there any questions from the board wonderful anyone from the questions for members though so it's just all y this is the public yeah sorry so um no one can hear you unless you're at the mic but the qu the question was whether where now is all signage regulations in the same section so now they are going out of regulations and they're actually are zoning bylaw so they are now going to be a bylaw typically when you hear the word regulations that's going to be outside of zoning um so you have a zoning by law and you have like rules and regulations that are outside of it Brian what would be the Practical effect practical effect is it' be easier for an applicant to um navigate the bylaw okay you're not look you're not looking in two places for signing yeah got it okay all right I'm just going to keep moving yep uh out lighting standards so this is this was kind of um this was so some of our bylaw changes are based upon resident feedback some of them are based upon things that we notice that we try to bounce off the board this is one of those resident feedback ones um I've been here for 2 years in January and there have been a number of complaints typically from commercial buildings of usually it's they're doing a whole new LED light uh overhaul and now I have a light that's like literally shining into my bedroom and I can't sleep at night and it's 4:00 a.m. so we get these calls and it's really hard to tell just to clarify this is a this is a complaint about commercial buildings you said it's a complaint by commercial buildings thank you you are correct I spoke I misspoke these are this is typically a complaint by uh res residential you know a residential that abuts a commercial building and the commercial building goes through some retrofit and you know all of sudden now this new lighting for 20 20 years has been fine but now it's a problem we there's no regul we we don't have any regulations on the book for outdoor light spillage or out light pollution or um anything related to that um so we reviewed various model bylaws um with and and other Municipal laws and proposed a bylaw that that's like a compilation of that we had given the planning board a 38 page um out door lighting bylaw and uh they kind of hated it a little bit um I'm I'm being factious but it was just they're like this is too cumbersome this this is not going to work for us this is going to seems like more of a headache for enforcement um we've paired that down to about seven pages that we feel is focusing more on the outputs which was the main comment that we had received was let's not worry about how many lumens and how many how many you know foot candles is is in this specific area is is there light pollution going over into my property just like focus on the problem rather than what's kind of going I just yes can I just Brian can I just interrupt you just quickly when you're when you're mentioning this feedback this is this is with respect to the the land use Summit that was that was done this past summer was that right in the yes so um yes thank you so the alenu summit was the planning board and the zoning board where we talked about potential bylaws for the upcoming town meeting and that was the major Focus or that was the major feedback that we heard about outdoor Le lighting was like way too complex please stop um make this different so um we overhauled that hopefully you've had um a chance to review it um and we feel we've we've captured what uh the board was was looking for okay very good thank you um questions from the um questions from the board with respect to the lighting the outdoor lighting standards go to the pair down approach here I for one appreciate the simplification because I was one of the loudest voices saying it was too complicated so thank you thanks Tim anything um Jean any questions from um no I'm to the lighting okay um Mike dulis any questions with respect to lighting uh no I think I'm good thanks Lou okay how about Jim uh Jim do you have question respect out ligh all set okay very good thanks okay all right unless there's any questions or comments from members of the public uh Brian you can you can go ahead we got one comment sure Bill McKenzie 34 H Street does this also include all the street lights in dvas no got my answer okay thank you technically I was not on record saying that with my head shaking no um uh Municipal so we're we are hate say it but we are we are not uh um uh we do not have to hold ourselves to the zoning bylaw but typically in this case you probably wouldn't want us to mean meaning the street lights that that are that are in downtown you probably want them the way that you would the way that they're going to um be implemented one one more yes of course uh John buad from crust Line Circle if an existing manufacturing facility has lights lighting up a loading dock and we're about to build three brand new condominiums that those lights will now shine into the they're not even there yet but they're going to be there does this cover that would it prevent okay yeah probably either the buildings from being built because the lights are going to be shining into them or would they tell the people at the industrial plant your loading dock can't have lights on it probably the second one um so what would happen so yes this bylaw would um affect once it goes into effect it would it would affect everybody um it what this bylaw would do would make that industrial complex have to have specific lighting that shines down and cannot trespass onto uh the the over the property line so it is possible to do it definitely but they would have to essentially essentially just Shine the Light in a specific Direction and yeah I um any other um someone did mention is is if this is going to be online as well so this presentation in PDF and PowerPoint will also be on this this it'll be right next to um all all of the language of the actual changes as well so just for everyone uh to know that and Brian they would they would go on to the planning and economic development sort of subpart of the of the town's website correct we're going to double post on planning and economic development and the planning board so if you go to either one of those pages we will we will have all of the Amendments as well is this PowerPoint presentation great thank you one one more question from the audience here Bill McKenzie 34 harb Street my neighbor's light shines into my living room now how do we deal with that and who enforces it um right yeah so uh typically how we've been doing this without even having a bylaw in uh without having a bylaw on file what we have been doing so we work late on Thursdays we typically see what's going on um we obviously do other days as well but Thursdays are the are the easiest day especially during the winter to see what's going on lightwise so if someone is doing uh this now the fact that we've put this in the paper as a legal ad the zoning amendments they are in effect until they get voted down I know that sounds very strange but because we've already um notified the public about any zoning change this is Mass General law that once you notify um through the legal ad which was two weeks ago um all of these bylaws are potentially in effect so anyone that goes forward this is the this is you know this was I don't know when they did this it was certainly more than 50 or 60 years ago this was to obviously prevent people from when a when a proposed change is happening so then everyone like rushes in to try to do a grab of certain zoning before it changes for example um so I don't know if I answered your question fully okay who enforces it who enforces it so this would um if it's in the zoning bylaw um if we get complaints so we issue fines we issue letters saying you know it's based upon information and belief from from the time that we went there on Thursday at 7: p.m. we saw lights going into this you know please direct them in a different way if if we see this again we will issue a $300 fine per you know I write this a lot so I get it it comes out pretty quick but um so yeah that's that's how we do it thank yeah thank you Brian all right I'm glad we're not talking about indoor lighting fur question that yeah um I guess I'm GNA keep moving keep on moving kennels pet daycare dogs always a sensitive subject doesn't matter what what it is whenever you talk about dogs in any community in the Commonwealth there are always lots of questions and lots of care about what's going on with the dogs okay in one sentence what the main change that is happening most of this is is a cleanup but the main change that actually is happening is that we um we Define a kennel as three dogs or more so you're allowed to have a personal kennel meaning three dogs you're allowed to have three dogs um you know you're not breeding them you're not you're not you're not a commercial business you're just normal person with three dogs you're allowed to do that when you get a fourth dog you're coming to the zoning board of appeals to ask for this dog to be part of your house it's a little strange so turns out the state actually has very well defined definitions of what kennel what what kennels are and there's commercial kennels non-commercial kennels so all we're doing is adopting the state uh definitions for kennels we're not changing where and when you can have a a kennel like that that's not changing in terms of the residential districts what people wanted the main question that we got was are you now going to allow commercial kennels in residential districts that was like the main question and the answer is no we're we're not doing any changes in terms of the use of any of these the only thing that's changing is that a per a kennel now is defined as four dogs or more rather than three um this is what is um The Proposal so the proposal is a person in the residential zone so we're we're not talking about commercial zones generally you can do veterinary clinics and you know commercial boarding commercial breeding that type of thing in commercial zones generally in the residential zones this is what's going to happen and again it is not changing from what is current practice so a personal kennel that's now going to be four dogs you'll be able to do that by right in in your you know in your home before it was three now it's four to do any type of commercial boarding so that means just normal pet daycare someone just has a an at home pet daycare business they still need to come for we're still making this we're not changing this you still need to come for a special permit so it can be denied you're you're asking a board for permission to do that again that's not changing and then all the commercial stuff Veterinary kenel that's not allowed in any residental District so I want to make very clear nothing is changing in terms of where you can do what the only thing that's changing is is four dogss instead of three any questions from the board or the public yes good I can there's no way I could get through a dog conversation without one so like that would have been a first in like 15 years so oh could whoever is has the question go and identifi himself and and pose the question BR Street town meeting Member preing One Precinct one uh in it sense to some people dogs are like rabbits they breed so if you have four dogs maybe one two or three of them happen to be females that haven't been altered they have a litter what do you do with the litter if you can only have four dogs and you now have eight or whatever is there a time limit for them to be disposed of one way or another I mean I I like dogs I don't have one but if I had a a large litter the part of a family part of my family not mine but part of a family how do you handle that move to M sure so what you're talking about is what what happens when someone has a personal kennel but they really kind of turn into a commercial kennel so you know we're not out here looking for this stuff first of all let's start there um really we don't go out looking for any infractions if you want to know the truth that is not that's not generally what we do when we're out on site visits we clearly look to see what's happening but we don't just go out to search for stuff that that's not what our department is paid to do frankly um so I think if we saw a case where someone was a personal kennel and every year their their personal has their personal kennel has puppies like you know we'll figure that out if you if you wanted like I don't know how about that that's the short answer is I don't really know but we will figure it out I mean that that seems like a one-off problem you're talking about someone who's willfully breaking the law and that we would you know eventually find them got thank you Brian all right any further questions from the either from the Board of members of the public on this one okay all right this one that's um that's that's basically this is the use table we're adding those those um for downtown so the definitions this is in downtown so we already talked about the residential districts and um it's the same thing that you would still require a special permit for anything um really uh you would require a special permit for a veterinary clinic or anything commercial related um and then a P stands for that it's permitted that you can do it by right um it's hard to um not care about the top here uh cuz that's not changing meaning that that has that's other uses we're just just the bottom here um but again you can see that even so this domestic charitable Corporation kennel that's like your typical MSPCA or other type of nonprofit organization so that you know you would still need a special permit to do that in the downtown so again not not trying to change policy it's it's just that 43 thing got it okay um very good okay so that was it on dogs that was amazing if that was true okay I'll take it let's just yeah okay um garages this was kind of a weird inconsistency that we had between the definition of garage and the use table so the definition of garage said that it had to be on a residential parcel which doesn't make a lot of sense because you could have garages on Commercial Parcels there all the time if anything you probably have more garages on Commercial parcels and larger garages on Commercial Parcels so one the so this is the proposed change that just we're taking out located on a residential parcel and what we're putting in um is that right now um you can do a 40 by3 three car garage that's what a normal a normal res like a any normal residential house if you have enough space to actually put I mean 40x 30 is huge but if you have enough space you could put by right you could put a 40x 30 three car garage right now you can ask for larger than that we we do get them sometimes in front of zba right now you can ask for larger garages in the R2 and the R3 the larger zone so you can go above four but for some reason in the commercial and Industrial zones you're not even allowed to apply for a fourcc car garage so you're basically allowing someone who has kind of a big property to to get to the the possibility of getting a fourcc car garage but a commercial property in a commercial Zone that has that is that needs a very large garage can't even apply so we thought this was kind of a no-brainer like let's just allow them to we're not saying that they're going to get the they're they're going to get it but at least let's allow them to get into the zba to at least apply for doing a for or you know an oversized garage so so we thought this was kind of a nothing and then it it just made sense for most Parcels okay got it okay sounds good any um any questions from the from the board on this on this this item Brian were there any questions from the board No No I um all clear okay any questions from members of the members of the public uh not not on this one just a question and this is in Brian this might have come up during the the landu summit um there was I think there was a question about like commercial garages and such does so this doesn't this this revision doesn't do anything that would curtail a you know someone who's running like a a commercial garage shop would it or this this does the opposite yeah this does the opposite this allows this allows a commercial operation to app the the ability to apply for an oversized garage okay so it's expanding it's yeah it's expanding the the property right okay and and I mean there there have to be certainly garages that are Beyond four four vehicles currently commercial in commercial commercial zones definitely mhm yeah I um my guess is it was previous to this to the zoning change that that prevented it okay got it okay all right sounds good I don't have any further questions on this one for for now all right moving on to ground groundwater um so groundwater protection areas they consist of aquifers and Wells that are and recharge areas that that warrant our protection because um for drinking water or other or other purposes and we are updating the bylaw to reflect the new maps issued by the Commonwealth so this uh this was the the previous map is this one there's an area here in the southwest and then an area in the Northeast this this was the reason why this area was protected was be it was mainly because of a or not mainly it was because of a well in venom that has gone offline it's not being used so because of that well in wenom going offline this this District got taken out of the state level map so now our map will just include the Southwest portion um these maps are issued by the Commonwealth and we reference them for groundwater protection we are updating the map to include the the the the new change back to you good any question yep any questions from members of the of the board with respect to this um this this proposed amendment no we've gone over this before just so the audiences knows that we've looked at this a couple times this is our first time third time third time we've seen it so it's pretty straightforward thank you thank you for the clarification Jim I appreciate it that's good um any questions for members of the public at all there is one yes Mr Brad street sure sure please Mr Bradstreet go ahead thanks Sir Bill Brad street town meeting member Precinct one what's been in the news lately are forever chemicals how does that come into play with these water sources they the way they describe it in the medeia that it's slowly creeping death to all of us because they don't break down for a very long time that they they're saying that it's in the food everything I heard one person say they had the blood checked and there's contamination in their blood so for water source that we are going to rely on how would that come into play with this or would it right um I I would only yeah I would only say that the these now this now one area is going to have heightened scrutiny for the types of chemicals you're talking about so but that's that's kind of where it ends unfortunately okay thank you any additional um thanks Brian any additional question questions or comments from members of the public on this uh this particular provision does not appear so okay okay let's move on to the Civic space districts Civic space districts um the use table and map changes so this is a lot of map changes actually for a um for um well just in general for for for a town meeting it's a lot of map changes um and for members of the public U Brian could you just just briefly describe like what is a Civic space and sort of how that you know again just just for for folks who may be tuning in and sort of hearing the phrase you know they haven't heard the phrase very maybe very often sure um so Civic space generally what you would think of as town-owned land just gen just generally that's not always the case at all but just if you're thinking about Civic space in terms of How It's zoned it's typically town-owned land so it's um it's obviously you know where town hall and schools and and playground uh but it also could be um a lot of open space um what we have found is that there are decent amount of properties that are zoned institutional um Civic space institutional so it's there there are a couple different types of Civic space all of the school all of the schools for example are Civic space institutional because they have a building on them and there's it makes sense in terms of you know Town Hall the library these are all institutional Civic spaces that should probably be treated differently from actual Civic open space you look on the map though it's all green everything's green so there's no real distinction in terms of the color but there are um so what this is doing is taking a certain these Parcels that are almost all playgrounds and open space existing open space that don't the only structure that's on any of these are are typically playgrounds these are not these are buildings are not on these properties so what we're doing is um taking out the Civic space institutional use for these and changing them to Civic space open space because that's what they that's how they should be treated that's how they should be viewed um meaning that we can't say that it can never be built on meaning it's it's Town land but the idea is that there should be some almost like enshrining of that open space that people get used to and want to keep it there for a reason um so this kind of um it's it's a way to kind of slightly nudge that that playground will hopefully be a playground or open space forever or at least as long as it's Zone this way so um we only took we only took Parcels that that really were like open space and playgrounds to uh take and uh to take them out of the institutional open space and put them in the Civic space open space Zone got it okay thank you any uh any questions or comments from members of the board with respect to this provision anybody nope nope okay how about any uh questions or comments from members of the public no I don't think so what we we have a question about the last that's the water thing the water thing let's talk about the water thing and just uh well does anyone have any questions on Civic space it looks like it's a no okay great yeah watch yeah please thank you Susan Gothia 181 Pine Street regarding the water so we have all these buildings being built in town blah blah blah how much water are we actually getting from there and do we have enough to keep building thank you um Okay so I don't have the breakdown in terms of so we get our water from a number of different sources let me start off by saying like I am not the person to talk about water let me just be very clear um I can talk about a lot of things but not that um from what I understand um the real issue has to do with the fact that we draw water from the IP switch River because we draw water from the IP switch River we are bound to this agreement that I don't even think is actually active anymore that we need to renegotiate so it's a little bit of a stretch to say that we're we don't have enough water it's that the the agreement that we are currently in with uh for the ipswitch for the ipswitch wher water set is um it it prevents us from from um well ite it prevents it does not necessar necessarily um say that we it's not that we don't have enough water it's that this agreement that needs to be renegotiated um is somewhat limiting us so I know that that's a very weird and like cryptic answer the reason why is because we're talking about 25 years of of of issues the one thing I can say is that um as it relates to the downtown zoning at least there was a buildout analysis done for the downtown zoning in terms of um you know if we did the max number of units that was allowed by wri and went and went through the whole downtown and built out built out that downtown which would never happen actually meaning it's not like every single parcel would do go to the Max and everyone we did that analysis with the engineering department and they they and we all came to the conclusion that yes it is possible to Zone this and for us to move forward you know for for us to be okay for whatever that means so yes there was there was homework done at least for downtown that's as far as much as I know I do think there's a very large extremely important conversation that has to happen about water that yes it has to do with development but really when it comes down to it we the town has to provide water for its residents and businesses so that that is on us to provide um so that's where the buck stops so if there's an issue it it is us it is you know that we need to fix thank you R and thanks for the questions sure are we on yes are we on to the last I just had a quick question why is Tapley not listed on this Tapley Park but like Plains Park is so I didn't know if there was a difference on the last one right before this I think it's already oh okay I was just curious yeah yeah I think it's already listed okay thanks okay all right thank you ran thanks for the question mikee all right uh um tapville 141 to 146 that everyone's been waiting here since 7:00 and it's 9:10 so here we are um so 141 and 146 Pine Street is an area that's located in the residential one District the R1 so the existing uses in that in on these two sites have been industrial or commercial for well over 100 years started out um throwing coal like they were delivering it was a coal operation coal storage and delivery um and pretty much has been landscaping and personal services personal services nail salon hair salon um I believe a tattoo might have been in there at some point many years ago but that that laps so now they can't go back but basically it's been now two types landscaping and personal services in the residential one zone in the R1 Zone residents desire businesses to remain in specifically in this area um but most businesses um are actually unable to operate due to this being in the R1 District so this this is where the the issue is is that we're not the zoning board of appeals is not allow according to the zoning bylaw we are we are not allowed to give use variances in residential districts so so what that means is that the only businesses not that that that um so on these two sites that means that the only businesses that these properties can do is land literally landscaping and personal services because that's what's been going on there and they have that protection it's called a pre-exist used to be called grandfathered pre-existing non-conforming use that's what that is it's a it's a use that existed prior to zoning the problem is they can't do anything else so what the problem that we are having it's not the everyone thinks that the owners of the property have been calling us saying hey you need to rezone this we want to build housing like that is not the case at all what's happening over the past two years since I've been here is that we also review business certificates so people want to start a business in town they apply for a business certificate we make sure they're zoning compliant so that's a new thing that we've never done before we've caught a lot of business certificates that were not supposed to be doing doing that business in spe specific zones you know call it 10 in 2 years when we say nope you got to apply for a special permit you can't do this by right whereas before we just kind of just go through without zoning review so that's a big change that we're doing with this spe back to this specific property so we would be getting like business certificates for a masonry company and everyone's like well no one's really going to be care care if it's a masonry company but they actually can't really do that and and then that was like on repeat so they would be someone would be like so they it was the owner was just trying to you know this landscaping business they came out I need a new landscaping business but the guy does this other thing as well what we found that they were really tied up when we went further into it we realized that there were a number of zoning processes that were done in the past that allowed even this landscaping business and and the personal services business but now those processes are not allowed so what where we are now is that because it's in the residential Zone and there's a non-conforming use there right now a commercial use in a residential Zone our bylaw allows an applicant to come to the zoning board of appeals for what's called a finding it's the EAS it's the lowest bar of review meaning you only need three out of five and you can with a finding this happened I want to say five six years ago that try to it was trying to go in front of the zoning board of appeals for um a 20 unit maybe something 20 25 units they were able to do that or they were able to apply because of this finding a finding means you're going from one non-conforming use a commercial use to a different non-conforming use a 20 or a 30 unit complex what this would allow the change to bring it into the tap leeville it would cap it at 14 units per acre so right now there's no maximum in for because it's this non-conforming use right now again if they're not allowed to operate what they are now but that gives them a protection like I said they can go for a finding to go from one non-conforming use a commercial a commercial use to something much larger that with no cap they could just say well we're we're we're proposing 40 units here what this does bringing it into the tample Ville caps it again it caps it at 14 in terms of 14 units per acre right now in the R1 it's about six it's 5.8 which is at 7500 you might have seen you could get one the reason why 180 to 180 Pine is at that seven and 8 is because they're going at 7500 Square ft per unit that's the density that's allowed so in the R1 you could do it's a by right if you had one acre you could do technically five units it's 5.8 but technically you don't get it doesn't round up you can you can do five this would allow it to go to go up sign significantly um but they would still need a special permit no matter what between now and if it even if it doesn't get changed no matter what happens right now you would still have to have a special permit to get anything more than four units forget density forget density just if it's more than four you have to go to the zoning board for uh for sorry with for the planning board for a special permit so the triggers for review are wouldn't change meaning four units you're still going you're still going in front of a board to ask for permission that could be denied um we thought we we really aimed here to honestly reflect what's on the ground a 100 years it's been a commercial property it's zoned R1 it's that simple in our mind in that it doesn't it doesn't make sense and if everyone really wants it to be commercial unless they want it literally to be Landscaping a landscaping business and some type of personal services which is a nail salon or a hair salon those are the only options that any land owner whoever is from now into the forever would be able to do so that that's the rationale um you know beh behind it um and I think I've I've I think I've said enough just before I ask the board for any questions with respect to the the the finding um in terms of so you said as it currently stands right now applicant could request a finding would that be in that's not to do just to do a residential development that's if they want to incorporate some because it is in R1 so that's just because it's a that's if they want to do some include some business as part of it is that correct no so the fact that it's already non-conforming right now the finding would they could basically go to any other use including a large multif family building or I said actually they could apply for L anything they could apply for anything as long as it's in the use table right yes as long as it's in the use table so anything in that table you could apply for I mean so far you know there's a there's a reason why a lot of these fail miserably um because people try to put you know 10 lb of flour in a 5B bag you know that that happens that happens I wouldn't say it often but regularly so it's not like this finding is used very often um but it is a Hu a huge benefit actually to land owners in town if you have a if you have a non-conforming property um a sorry a non-conforming use um that it it you actually do strangely enough you get a lot of protections to not only keep that use but to actually change to a different non-conforming use um it is unique to danverse right and you as you point out it's an easier standard than the special permit uh requirement that's right that's right but yes but if it it's complicated only by one thing in the fact that if the proposal is a multif family it's a if it's four units or more and is a multif family the state law allows a simple majority to pass that as well so if they're doing a residential only it actually would also be only three out of five if they were doing a mixed use property it depends okay got it okay thank you um okay I'll turn it over to um to members of the board does do any of the members of the board have questions about this particular provision uh no questions I think uh when we did the tab rille overlay District I think that um it was a a miss that we should have we should have included it I think we were focused on Holton Street uh primarily um but I think this is a a good addition uh to okay provide additional uses um for that area which is been used in pretty much an industrial commercial type way for over 100 years okay good okay thank you Jim any other questions or comments um from members of the board Y no J Tim y okay very good anybody um any members of the of the public uh who wish to ask a question or make a comment on this uh on this proposed amendment so a we to understand that the board is trying to turn this to I'm sorry Mark Authur 181 Pine y thanks are we to understand that the board is trying to convert this to a commercially used property to remove that that what's what's it called non-conformance yeah nonconform so that the current owner can't build a 40 or whatever unit condo it's not an or it's not necessarily an or but yeah yeah it's not Brian can you go in can you address Mr Go's question yeah um I would I just said Lou that it's not necessarily an or it's not necessar moving forward with the tville doesn't prohibit it's not to prohibit anything it's more to open the possibil it's to open the commercial I mean I think our motivation is to open the commercial opportunities I think that's the motivation so so if the town the the board decided to open up the commercial um prop open up the commercial property options does that prude the building of any kind of um units livable units no no it does not no but you but as Brian overlay right now yeah they can right now R1 so this is this is the the better of two evils basically is what we're talking about it's maybe that the language we would use but can't hear me if I'm not so well first of all these are the types of discussions we want to have number one um but it it's not I I agree with Josh it's it's not a either or it's not a better worse we looked at this as as a general rule if you're just looking at a piece of property and it's been commercial for a hundred years generally it should not be in the R1 that's where we're starting is that people not not only is it commercial people want it to remain commercial so it's certainly easier to make a case in front of a board that like hey I'm in the r one I want to build some housing so we're trying to say that well right now you can do a whole bunch of residential well not a whole bunch you can do some residential on this lot it's a pretty big lot you can do some residential there um but really we're trying to promote more business right now we're not at all in this in this area so what people are generally concerned with is that the tapleyville was meant to kind of be this Village atmosphere a little bit of commercial little bit of dense dense housing like that that was the point of it it's it's like neighborhood neighborhood business neighborhood business okay so but not as dense as as downtown that was not the intent that was not the intent of it but it was to add some units we're not trying to hide the fact that if it's in the tapville of course it could have units in it um what we're trying to say is um well right now it might be according to the bylaw it might be a little bit easier to get more density under the R1 but in reality I don't I mean I don't you know in reality whatever it's five six years ago a 20 unit project you know crashed and burned miserably because everyone came out and said we don't want this so what I'm trying in terms of why I'm a little dancing a little bit here is is that it's it's not like it's like a better or not what we're doing is expanding the the amount of opportunity yet we are expanding the amount of residential a little bit but really there's no chance for this person to expand it commercially at the moment unless he wants he or she wants to just run some huge landscaping business and be very successful which might end up being the case for the next 100 Years anyway um so we're not here to predict the future we are we we you know but we do want to promote what residents want I think from the beginning of the meeting what I really wanted to kind of jump in and say is that we are all here to implement the law we're not so so you guys help make the laws we we help you help make the laws but we're here to implement them we are not here you know we're not here to drive the bus we're we're if that makes any sense like you guys drive the bus it's not supposed to be adversarial it's supposed to be we're here to implement your vision that's what Town staff is supposed to do and boards and and we get paid for it so boards and committees even get you know you know they're doing this out of out of you know not just the kindness of their heart it's it's their love for town so I just wanted to kind of echo a little bit what the board was saying is that we can understand that development is adversarial that to say otherwise is is crazy but everyone here does we want we want to make right with the law that's the first part so even though we might not like things how things turn out we're here still to implement the law um so I want to thank you guys for being here and helping helping us get a better product that's what this is about um okay I think I've done enough talking for the third time so um did anyone else I'm sure there's some people that would like to say something so thank you Brian for your comments I appreciate that that's all I want to know oh the acreage on these two sites um I can get that I don't have it right now but I can get that before the meeting is done um someone was asking what the acreage of the site was yes it is 1.14 Acres at 141 and then it is uh 1.05 Acres at 146 that first number was one one 1.14 Acres we had yeah we got one thank you T yep would you come on up yeah coming up and please introduce yourself and hi this is Peggy uh I'm Peggy philli I live on hiy street so first I have a question about the chat so like literally only a a lock shop could go in there from that on that that's my first question um so it wouldn't so for Chets um there was a process that was done I mean it's been there for quite a while um I think that site um really anything outside of like a certain square foot like if it's under 25 00 ft or over 2500 ft it's a different use so they are significantly limited it's not just a locksmith in that specific case cuz they didn't get permission to specifically do locksmithing I know how exciting this is um so they have a little bit more play but the point is is not much it's still in the R1 like it can't just do any Commercial Business cuz it's in a residential Zone but another business could come in certainly another like the landscaping business that could only have landscapers it's very similar to this meaning in terms of that lock shop like it it's a specific type of commercial business that is um that is um I want to say it's retail without saying what it is security or something security related something to do specifically with with that so that's kind of the problem is that because once you're non-conforming in a residential Zone once you're performing commercial things in a residential Zone the zoning bylaw wants to get rid of you it wants to to to get more compliant as time goes on okay so it would allow hopefully other smaller business to come in versus it's going to it's and they're limited to the four to with the special permit yes that's our one okay um so that was my question but I did want to say because it was a comment made earlier about we're not talking about Pine Street today we're talking about other things and yes we're here mainly because of Pine Street because it always brought to our attention but it's a damis problem it's not just Pine Street with the overbuilding it's a damis problem so a lot of us are here because of Pine Street but we're here because of the over building if it wasn't a town issue then we wouldn't have a a leg to sand on so that's all I wanted to say like I don't know it's just it's a town issue it's not just Pine Street thank you anyone who hasn't spoken thank you yes in the back further get everybody but just we'll start with people who haven't spoken yet and again if you could identify yourself uh you know for the record thanks hey good evening everyone my name is Jason Mor I actually own 141 Pine Street and um I wanted to I guess ask the board to kind of support this we were in current a non-conforming um situation where we have four teneted um 400 ft spaces that back I believe in '98 or 99 there was a special permit granted for use of those four units and the actual use is very restrictive it's it's very vague to like office attorney um and somewhere along the way there was uh hair salon um Aesthetics came into the mix prior to myself um excuse me buying the property and so as the uh town has got a new zoning compliance agent they've discovered that um the two of the current tenants as their business certificates come to expire potentially will not be able to renew those certificates because it's non-conformity I can't come to the zoning board and ask them for a variance or a finding for a change of use so it kind of puts those two tenants and the future use of those spaces kind of in Peril and so uh I don't have any intention to develop the property anytime soon I run a landscape company out of there and um you know I just I I want to try and be compliant with the zoning it's been industrial use for over 120 years and um you know being in a residential use we're finding now that we we have to comply with some setback issues um in terms of storage container that's been on the property for 15 years has now come to light that it has to get moved and um so this zoning compliance agent that the town has got is kind of putting um um I guess some moves in play to kind of bring me compliant with some residential um usage and it just kind of doesn't make sense to me so having the property that um is industrial used in an industrial Zone makes the most sense for us going forward so I hope you support it thanks thank you next for the comments or questions members of the public oh yeah Jim Rose toown meeting remember presing three so I just want to be clear so with this overlay District did did I hear you right that they'd be able to build 14 units per acre with four by right only four by right but they could go up to 14 four by right yep yeah because the R1 zoning is for pro okay all right so then that's what's allowed sorry even even in well we can we can both talk that's fine even in the taple so in the tapville if it's four you need a special permit with the planning board or in the R1 you if it's four you you need a special permit with with the play so that that part's not changing okay okay I think I'm clear okay thank you Dave McKenna 383 andova Street preing day town meeting member I have a question about the non-conforming use principle my understanding I just bumped something I think sorry um if you're non-conform use I thought it gave you a lot more leeway to expand that non-conform use or even change it with only having to get a finding by the board of appeals that you're expanded use is not substantially more diff more sub substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood but I think it I always thought it did allow you to change the use if you could get that finding is that correct or not yeah 100% yes okay so they could expand to another use as long as they convince the three out of five members of the board of appeals this not substantially more detrimental so I think it might make sense to make this change and get them locked into something that's a little bit more regulatory thank you y thank you Mr M okay any um further members of the public y as Brian do we have any other members of the public who want okay sorry I didn't see them I didn't see them on my screen I see them now Andrea Pin Street um I'm concerned because this is our street obviously um and I the gentleman that just came up that owns the lot I do appreciate it my family owned a business and I totally get it you want to um expand things and you know obviously do business and keep the people in there that are in there the only my only concern is either way you go is the neighborhood going to be notified before you rip everything down and put up all these buildings cuz that what what will happen moving forward you know in 10 or 20 20 years it's so congested right there I don't know who lives on Pine over there I do and the traffic sometimes backs up to my house which is pretty far up it's hard to get through that light and then we also have the crosswalk right there too so people hit the button for the crosswalk we also have a business across the street that where they're delivering meat a lot of times the trucks come down there and they're trying to get in there so yeah 18 wheel are big big trucks and of course I always stop because I understand that it's difficult for them to see but a lot of people don't and they don't care so um there's so many things he had a brookwoods jacket on that makes me nervous by the way just to let you know we as a neighborhood had a huge fight with Brookwood that owned the silen street I don't know if everybody remembers this when they were trying to do stuff over in Brookwood and then they promised us the Green Space which is now being taken away and they're I don't know if everybody remembers this I was in the middle of it so now they're going to build you know units over there which they can't even tell us if they're condos or they're tow houses but they're going to build something and they're trying to get eight units so this is why we're upset and we're worried because whatever these changes are are we going to be notified what with what you're going to do and believe me I get it you want to have your business there you want to be able to keep the people that are there there's not a lot of traffic coming in and out of there right now there isn't I mean I drive by there every single day a hundred times a day I drive by that place so I appreciate that but moving forward what is that going to look like like that street is a nightmare and if you're on that street at 4:00 forget about getting up and down it and it's not really fair to the other neighbors and then if you move forward with building units cuz I feel like there's going to be apartment units I don't know are something I don't feel like and if you do the one thing that we really appreciate is P Parking for those people because that's a whole another issue but just I mean I don't know I just think that there's going to be more going on and and I know that you know either way they're going to go because obviously this is going to keep going on and you're going to probably get what you want which I hope you do but just I want you to really think about the neighborhood because it's really important to us to not have a ton of traffic and you know and be safe for the people walking across the street and and being able to get up and down our street thank you thank you other comments or or questions by members of the public sure um the question was where the number 14 came from in terms of of how that was derived um okay I so the tapleyville this was done in 2014 um that the idea was the overlay right I'm sorry part of the the overlay correct yes the over the tapville overlay was was done in 2014 I believe the idea was like a gentle density meaning that um our downtown it the highest Zone which is the High Street um which is like the least historic the the area that has the most amount of potential in downtown actually is High Street that's a Max Max of 36 units per acre we did not want to go there uh I'm I was not here in 2014 but um the planning department and town meeting certainly didn't want to go to something like that and that's where the max of 14 but you still it could still be denied at at 4 so the idea was that that in between 4 and four they wanted to put a a cap on it a downtown is yeah more in the 30s and 40s they didn't want that so this was kind of like a medium amount of density however like I said at four units it still could be denied thank you Brian any further questions from anyone great um all right it looks like back to you Lou okay very good all right um anything anything further any other any further questions from the members of the board in terms of what we have uh so that's that completes your presentation is that correct Brian that is correct okay so coming back to the board are there any um uh any any questions or or further discussion on this obviously we're going to have um you know you know it's it's anticipated that we'll be continuing this public hearing um and and continue the discussion about these so if someone who's not is is is watching this you know is watching the tape a few days from now and and and and wants to wants to weigh in they certainly can um any further any further questions or um or comments by members of the board um Brian can you just give us the um the agenda I mean as far as the um additional meetings after planning board and there's going to be selectman and fincom review can you just give us the dates it seems like we've had this was our third meeting um so sure um it's a little bit in flux we want to give it to the select board first and then to fincom I think the idea is that that would uh they would take it up at a meeting next week before the holiday at least it would get into their packet so um and then we're having a meeting with the clerk this week about when the the warrant is actually opening and closing so in terms of dates that are important um we would be continuing this hearing to the next one which is January 14th um the idea is that they would probably be potentially one more after that if there are changes but the hope is that we hear changes from select board and fincom if we hear anything that we would hear prior to that January 14th date so that we could actually bring those forward here on the 14th and then actually discuss those changes so I assume You' want to pause a recommendation from us to to bring this current draft forward to the selectman so You' take a vote this evening of some sort I mean not a vote for well I mean I usually we make a recommendation that we're in favor of as we pass it forward to the select board gotcha um with the full with the full um notion that it could change correct so yeah no that that totally makes sense I think now would be the time if that is customary that makes total sense to me I would make that motion Mr chairman okay yeah okay so a motion has been made now I guess one question just just procedurally before I uh well let's go and and and and Jim made the motion is there a second on the motion second okay second by Jean um discussion on it just one question I had with respect to uh we do have a Current public hearing so I I assume that we can forward this with a you know with a favorable recommendation obviously subject to change and then also still continue the public hearing is that correct yes that's actually necessary to do that be we need to we need to do exactly we need to do both okay got it okay very good well we have the motion on the floor by um uh made by Jim and and seconded by Jean uh is to and and Jim by characterizing it correctly to forward this the um uh to forward these uh zoning changes to the select board uh with the planning board's recommen favorable recommendation uh subject to stain is that sound about right yes okay very good motion's been made and has been seconded so I'll I'll call a rooll um Jean yes Jim yes Tim yes Mike yes and I say yes okay so it's been uh moved with a favorable recommendation so um subject to uh to change um let's go and I'd like to entertain a motion as well to continue the um continue the public hearing on this U on this matter so moved it's been moved by is there a second Mike second second I'm sorry Mike Mike okay Mike thank you second very good so a motion has been made to uh to continue this um this to I and and Jean you um you the motion would this this would be um continuing it to January 14th the okay got it very good all right um so I'll call a roll I'll um uh Jean yes Tim yes Tim yes Mike yes and I say yes okay very good so the matter has been uh uh so that the public hearing is continued to our um uh to our next meeting on January 14th 20125 okay and just for information purposes um uh Brian when is the and sort of picking up on what Jim said earlier um just for members of the public when is the select board going to be um addressing this I I actually don't know I I believe it is next week the 17th okay okay so the select board's Tuesday meeting um it's anticipated their Tuesday meeting the 17th at uh at 6:30 is that correct I believe so I don't think it has been forwarded yet so I don't want to say the wrong information okay understood got so have to keep an eye out for the uh for the select board agenda then okay very good all right our next agenda item and I want to be be respectful of people's time I thank you for uh for your for your time here uh this evening both to the board and the members of the public um uh next and last item on our agenda are minutes I believe we had October minutes that were uh that were forwarded I'd like to entertain a uh I'd like to entertain a motion on those minutes these are minutes from October 22nd 2024 make a motion we accept the minutes from October 22nd 2024 okay motion's been made by Jean is there a second second okay second by Tim okay uh I'll call a roll on this um Jean yes uh Jim yes Tim yes Mike yes and I'm yes okay so the minutes have been passed very good um Josh and Brian anything further from uh from staff in terms of we have our our next meeting this is our last meeting for the in the year and uh any what is our next uh uh our next meeting is um is January 14th yep that's right so it will be the the tras lane the two items that we continued from tonight the tras lane item and then the zoning amendments which we discussed so those two items okay very good okay anything else from any other members of the um members of the board merry Christmas if not go to bed absolutely merry Christmas and happy holidays to everybody I'd like to entertain a motion to adjourn so moved second okay second all in favor please say I I hi hi hi okay very good thank you very much every everybody thanks Lou yep have a good holiday