[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] we'll call the meeting to order thank you guys for being here we really appreciate you coming out um most of you were here on Monday most of us were watching at live streaming so we're pretty educated as to where everybody stands but we absolutely want to hear from you today just a couple of rules um if you don't mind and yeah unfortunately we have to have a few rules um at Monday's meeting everybody clapped and I'm going to ask to wait till the end of each item to do that and the reason for that is you know people have differing opinions and we don't want to hinder or make anyone feel uncomfortable about their opin opinion or hinder them from coming forward to speak so it's it's not that we don't want the Clapping it's just out of respect for people who have differing opinions um I have all the cards if you have not filled out your card that's how we're going to do this um I'm going to go back and forth between for and against so I try to be as Fair as humanly possible um we will take a small five minute Comfort Break um after the first item so don't want to lose you all but you know we get our blood flowing use the restroom do those things um so we can give you all the time that you need and and the attention that you deserve um have I missed anything no I don't think so mayor okay all right we will go to new business um uh Sarah we have our assistant City attorney filling in today um I know we need to read the title but I'm not going to ask for a motion Until the End okay you okay with that yep okay an ordinance of the city of dun Eden Florida amending section 10741 point1 unlawful noise of the city of dun Eden Land Development code to provide for interpretive Clarity related to Amplified sound and to clarify amplifi may be heard outside the property line on New New Year's Eve and may never exceed a weighted 65 decel measured at the property line providing for codification providing for severability and providing for conflict and providing for an effective date this is presented for first reading okay thank you um I will wait um normally we would ask for a motion now but I'm going to wait until we uh have our presentation we ask our questions for public input and have the dialog God bless you okaying everybody okay with that all right Jennifer are you doing the first one I am okay yes you're on so thank you and good evening mayor vice mayor and Commissioners um the uh I'm going to do largely the same presentation that I did for the local planning agency sorry everybody you can take a little nap until I'm done it's almost exactly the same but I am going to circle back with uh and clarify a few items um at that that were uh brought up at the local planning agency meeting last Monday so the first item before the city commission this evening is an ordinance uh amending chap 107-11 of the code of ordinances pertaining to unlawful noise and one of the process improvements that we made between Monday and now is that we made that slide a little bit bigger for everybody so yes uh the purpose of this amendment is to clarify language uh in the ordinance that has at times caused confusion um and also to include a provision extending hours of operation on New Years uh and that was previously approved by resolution of the city Commission in 20 12 uh the unlawful noise ordinance was adopted in 2008 after a great deal of discussion in the community and it's funny because in the intervening period a lot of people came up to me and they said that they were on the live work Play Sleep task force from 2007 uh and that was the group put together to engender as much input from the community uh as possible and it's funny after reading through um hours and hours of minutes and deliberations from that task force uh you know a lot of the same things were discussed um then as they were amongst the the business resident and uh City task force that we put together a couple years ago so minutes show that there was a lengthy discussion surrounding a weighted versus c-weighted measurements and also the permissible decel levels and what would constitute unlawful noise uh in the ordinance so section 10741 uh1 PR C states that unlawful noise is the production of sound including sounds from any amplifier phonograph Hi-Fi stereo tape player compact disc or digital sound system or other type of sound broadcasting or sound amplic ampli amplification device I had a hard time on the LPA on that one too whether from moving Vehicles vessels or stationary locations that exceeds an aeed decel threshold of 65d measured at the property line of the complaintant or which otherwise creates a nuisance such items include but not not are not limited to loudspeakers boom boxes and car radios this section then established that unlawful noise is any sound which exceeds 65 DB at the property line of the complaintant and that would apply 7 days a week 24 hours a day section 107-11 pen H states that unlawful sound is Amplified sound whether music or any other form of sound that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week this violation includes sound generated inside a structure or outside a structure sound which may be heard because of the opening of doors or person's entering or leaving the structure that momentarily exceeds an aeed decel thre of 65 DBS measured the property line from which the sound is generated is not a violation of this standard this is the section of the unlawful noise ordinance that has caused confusion uh Through The Years taken literally this section of the code requires essentially silence when Ambient sound is in fact 45 to 50 DB and Ambient sound is just the sound of of of life in a city um also given that the way that sound Flows In Waves that is if there's no sound generated from inside or outside the structure what does the swing of the door matter there were a series of clarifications from City officials prior to adoption of that ordinance as well as as after the adoption of the ordinance um and I've cited some of those clarifications in my memorandum um from February 12th of 2024 of this year and that memorandum was to Captain Melbourne Jackson he is our North District Commander functions essentially as our chief of police but before I get to those clarifications specifically it's important to note that we're here today uh with this ordinance before the city commission at first reading um and upon adoption you will resolve this confusion and establish a clear uh flow a clear method as to how to enforce this ordinance and what our expectations are in enforcement of this ordinance on May 7th of 2008 Captain uh excuse me Sergeant C Laughlin of penel County Sheriff's Office community policing unit and the community policing unit is is essentially our the equivalent to our beat cops uh here in denan uh they made the following recomend recommendation uh regarding the draft ordinance to city manager Rob despirito and what they said what he said was a or number one excuse me use an aeed decel level rating system two set the the Threshold at 65 DB for live Amplified music three enforce enforcement of this decel level will be at the point of receivership of the complaintant four the business owners will be required to monitor the decibel levels and five no outside live Amplified music after 11:00 7 days of the week on July 17th of 2008 Harry gross assistant city manager described the parameters of the noise ordinance in in a memorandum of the city manager as follows introduces an a weighted decel threshold standard to determine whether Amplified sound is lawful sets an aeed decel level at 65 dbas establishes the point of measurement at the line of the complaintant and establishes that no Amplified music be played Outdoors after 11:00 7 Days 7 nights a week excuse me clarifications similar to those already described above occurred on January 5th of 2009 when Greg rice who was then the director of Community Development wrote to City Attorney John hubard as an example the business has Amplified music within the structure the time is 11:30 p.m. a person places a deciel reader at the property line of the business and measures the DB the result measurement is 55 DB at this point no violation of the ordinance has occurred a customer leaves the business by opening a door and exiting the building at the moment the door opens the the decel level increases to 68 DCB the door closes and the decel readings return to 50 Deb no violation of the ordinance has occurred he follows on January 15th of 2009 when he wrote I did ask the City attorney for clarification he said that the intent of the ordinance was essentially that the 65 D standard would be maintain it just moves to the property line of the source of the music after 11:00 p.m. and again what we're doing here this evening is incorporating those clarifications into the code of ordinances the intent was very clear in the public record at the time that the ordinance was adopted I did Reach Out directly to Harry gross and some of you may remember Harry uh he was the city's project manager and the assistant city manager at the time that that the um the ordinance was adopted and I really wanted to ensure that I was understanding the minutes and the emails and the statements that were made regarding the enforcement of this this important ordinance Mr Groves confirmed the city's position in 2000 and 20 2007 and 2008 and in addition I did check with deputies who worked in the city's CPO community policing division as far back as 2015 and that is namely uh Deputy Fahy and I also spoke to him again this morning just to to to clarify Deputy fah trained new deputies in the use deal readers and the implementation of the unlawful noise ordinance and not only here in denan but throughout pelis County as well he confirmed the above statements that unlawful noise if anything if anything over 65 DB measured from the property line of the complaintant before 11:00 p.m. and anything over 65 DB measured from the property line of the source of the noise after 11:00 p.m. and this is the way that this ordinance has been enforced since its adoption on the uh on the screen before you this is this is the proposed amendments to the ordinance staff has proposing that we add to section um H Amplified sound generated outside of the structure and again that's for clarification so um this is in legislative draft or striketh through as we call it anything underlined is what we propose be incorporated into the ordinance and anything that has the line through it is struck through and we propose that that that that is deleted so we're going to add uh subject to approval at second reading amp Amplified sound generated outside of a structure whether music or any other form of sound that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 uh any day of the week except on uh December 31st from 11:00 to 12:30 a.m. on January January 1st and again that's incorporating the the item that you had already approved or a previous commission had approved regarding New Year's Eve that was approved by re resolution and the resolution is not enforcable it has to be codified and we're proposing that we actually add um uh section I here and that states that Amplified sound generated inside of a structure exceeding a weed 65 deel that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week except December 31st from 11:00 p.m. until 12:30 a.m. on January 31st uh then the next sentence Amplified sound which may be heard because of the opening of do door swings and Etc has not changed it would remain uh within the ordinance this is a very clear and Common Sense approach uh to this ordinance and to this clarification and again it will resolve the confusion um that that has occurred over a number of years since its adoption so just a few things that I want to clarify from the local planning agency and I and I have to say I think everybody agrees that we had some some really good input um at the LPA and we're really very grateful uh for the input that we received um the first one is sorry let me get to my notes oh in regards to uh to decibel readers one of the members of the LPA had asked me if each and every Deputy has a decibel uh reader we actually the deputy that is assigned to the downtown area has a decible reader and then there's another one at the North district office so if there's a noise complaint they go and get that that uh decibel readers so there I had said that every Deputy has one they do not there there are two and actually they use those deciel readers almost exclusively and in fact exclusively uh in Denon because um um Safety Harbor does not have a decel level in their noise ordinance and they really don't get complaints they said from from the other cities that they that they supervise um so so a really good question was asked by Mr Benjamin um during the course he's a member of the LPA and that's in regards to crowd noise um and so my statement that 65 DB red at the property line after 11:00 p.m. is the level of noise that's permissible crowd and Amplified music I'm going to stand by that uh uh subsection C says the production of sound so crowd noise is a production of sound including sounds from any amplifier phonograph and so on and so forth that said and this is one of the reasons why I did a a series of of phone calls to the deputies who enforc the um the noise ordinance and uh to to Deputy F He Who as I said has moved along uh in the sheriff's office but has is is the the number one person if you will regarding deciel levels um that the crowd noise we have never or very rarely had an issue with uh a regular crowd noise going above 65 DB if you're sitting outside dining if it's it's uh you know a post activity or whatever it is it's it's a kind of a a rumble if you will but it's not a you know an unlawful noise or a spike in noise that said you know you really have to understand the way that sound sound works and decibel readers work and that in terms of it's a sound wave so I made a statement and I'm probably I'm going to make it again tonight that 65 DB is uh about the sound of a conversation about three you know 3 feet from the people that are conversing they're taking the noise readings for the most part the property line so they're 20 or 30 ft away from you know the source of that noise and so um it is effective as far as the crowd control of the of the crowd noise that said the question was what about those spikes in noise you know and they are they can be annoying as well in terms of a larger crowd um and the word rockus comes out a lot when you're when you're considering a larger louder crowd and the reason for that is that rockus is the way to describe annoying noise when you look up the definition of rockus It's Always back to noise and sound and that type of a thing so this doesn't address that um item in particular so I just wanted to kind of clarify um where we were with that and that we did do some research uh I don't think that we necessarily have to change our code to control crowd noise per say um but again it doesn't really address those spikes so I'm I'm going to close here but just a couple more points that I made at the on Monday night and I'm going to make a make again our noise ordinance is restrictive um it is the level of two people you know at 65 DB one conversation standing 3 ft apart um again it should be noted that that if the decel reading um is not more than 65 DB of the property line of the source of the noise after 11:00 then it would be less at the property line of the complaintant that said a very good point was brought out at LPA that well sometimes they have a common property line which is which is very true um noise amplic ampli amplification generated outside of a structure contain to be prohibited um after 11:00 um staff recommendation does not change this ordinance and will not change how it is being enforced these items that were discussed the most these were the items that were discussed the most in 2007 and 2008 and they do remain the same within the body of this ordinance the rating of the measurement is aweighted and we're recommending that it remains aweighted uh and the noise level again is 65 DB staff is therefore requesting that the city commission approve first reading of the proposed ordinance and set second reading for September 5th of 2025 thank you mayor thank you Jennifer okay questions for staff vice mayor so thank you Jennifer um despite the fact that we're going with the awaited I'm assuming I I know that we're doing that because most communities do that but I'm assuming we'll watch that as we're kind of going if that shifts you know because we do know Bas music can be loud um we'll kind of watch that and see if that becomes more of a factor we can always adjust right yes but right now that was debated and argued back 16 years ago and and it's still a much used measurement I just want to clarify that um one question I had is when we um measure whether somebody's in violation they do a two-minute average and I guess my question I had somebody after LPA say this to me that they went to a conference years ago and the the the leader of the conference said hey you know um we're gonna we're just going to be quiet for one minute and the point was a minute's a long time and of course 2 minutes is a way lot longer time so I'm wondering how why are we using 2 minutes because 2 minutes is a long time so um I actually got that from from deputies uh who are enforcing the code I think that that the two minutes allows enough time for them to get the base reading of of the source of the noise um it also will would eliminate those spikes that you get when trucks go by and cars and people walk by and that type of a thing so they're trying to get the base exactly what the noise level is um and give it time to to establish That Base I don't think that it's I think it's kind of a industry standard I don't think it's a requirement at all so we've we've really relied on the deputies though to determine what the best defensible way to measure it is though right or Sheriff G Terry and Captain Jackson have given them the the the discretion if you will when they're on site to take that noise reading and establish That Base um properly yes okay um so obviously one thing that you know we know that sometimes we get Bad actors so I guess my question is if someone is a bad actor and plays loud music over the limit continually you know under this new um under what we're doing um what will the process be and um you know because obviously it can't just be fines that mean there's got to be some real meat and and you know sometimes my questions are going to be hard to separate from outdoor because obviously it has the outdoor so CU my point is like at some point can we just say you don't get to do outdoors now because You' violated it too much and the residents have a right to Peace So what will the process really be in terms of teeth right versus cost of doing business no problem I'll just pay another f yeah and we actually have several Avenues available to us um in regards to enforcement of the noise ordinance and the uh the first one that we would we would uh well obviously it would be the the um citation a citation is $262 and a citation can be issued more than once um and the citation then if it's appealed that goes to circuit court and the judge can actually Levy a larger fine than the 262 if if the city were to present at circuit court and say Hey you know this has been five six times and when we'd like to see larger fine I think the Judge would would um would entertain that in our code of ordinances under uh section 3272 it's called pattern of nuisance activity so pattern of nuisance activity first of all it it establishes what a nuisance activity is and exactly what it applies to and the noise ordinance is one of the things that that you can establish a pattern of nuisance activity for and so the process would be if for example um the sheriff's office has responded three or more times in one month or the sheriff's department has responded seven or more nuisance activities at the property within 6 months at that point they're formally put on notice that that they have we've established that they are a nuisance activity a nuisance property um we require that they then submit to us a um an action plan is that that a George action plan right that's correct yes an action plan and so for the noise ordinance for example the action plan would be stop it right now because you know an action plan if if for example in a property you have an accumulation of debris or junk or that sort of thing okay how long will it take you to get rid of this 5 days okay you have five days in this case you turn off that speaker you or whatever it is you're doing now so they put together the action plan we'll sit down and negotiate that action plan with them and the negotiation will be something in terms of your outdo door music music is excessive you no longer permitted to have outdoor music um you cannot have outdoor music for a year and then we will get or 6 months or whatever it is and then we will talk um so so there's definitely an established way to address the behavior um is it is it quick it's as quick as we can make it as quick as we can go um can you get to the point where eventually you can say you may not have outdoor dining for example if that's the source and that's a different ordinance we're not talking about that with this ordinance but we can do that as part of the action plan it's part of the you know part of the whole agreement you know you could go all the way to addressing it with with the business tax receipt um that's not something that I would necessarily like to do that's that's um you could yank their their occupational license business tax that's step com 5 for me just stop the activity stop what it is you're doing and and we'll talk to you again in six months or we'll talk to you in in a year but we can't address it yes okay I mean we all know we have a lot of good actors in the city but it only takes one bad actor to just throw everything off kilter and that's not the need um so and again I know this crosses over but intermittent ruus Behavior so and maybe I should save that for is that better to save for the outdoor dining because again it's kind of those yeah I think it would be apply more out cool um let's see um so what is the enforcement plan for this are we are you have an enforcement plan for how we're going to make sure that people are following the rules so it's not all laid at you know at the feet of the resident so the um the enforcement plan is essentially the first step of it was that we have a dedicated CPO and again a CPO is a community policing officer he's uh boots on the ground um and we have a CPO here tonight uh listening and we do have a I don't see Deputy Nero he is our community policing officer for downtown um he gets off at 11: which um I've spoken to Captain Jackson about already um I think the commission is probably going to discuss you'd like to see somebody here till 3: I would actually recommend that that person's here till 3: when we're in season not necessarily over the summertime um but the the pelis county sheriff's office is our enforcement arm of the noise ordinance I've spoken to uh Captain Jackson who's our as I said the equivalent to our police chief many times about this including yesterday uh and we meet once a month and we talk about it just about at every single meeting um the deputies have been educated on the deciel reader and the city's expectation as far as enforcing the noise ordinance there are you cannot file an anonymous uh complaint I think everybody at this point knows it the deputy however can um the one the committee police officer in downtown he can investigate a noise ordinance violation and ISS issue a citation he does not have to wait to be called to do that and so that's one of the reasons why we really wanted the boots on the ground um uh Deputy Nero in downtown uh you know in the busy Parts I think he's Wednesday through S Sunday yeah okay um thank you um my last clarification is because I've gotten so much of this question I just want to put it on the record even though I think everybody in this room is very clear about that now but was it ever under any consideration to allow Amplified music Outdoors after 11:00 no no okay that is that is still misunderstood around the city and I don't know of any member on this commission that was ever ever in a place that was going to change that so but anyway I just want to make sure it's clear thank you that that's all I have right now thank you okay commissioner TGA thank you mayor um I'd like to start off if I may at the very beginning of this so we had we ended up with a a BRC um that gave recommendations for some of the things that are included here in correct the BRC gave recommendations on the outdoor dining the the unlawful noise ordinance was my recommendation okay did they did they have any opinion about this or they discussed it I know they discussed it yes and we actually put it on the agenda for the business resident um uh BRC they did discuss it um and it was really a discussion there was no vote there was no you know we all reach a consensus we thumbs up or thumbs down this the clarification itself was something that felt uh as a city manager in order to calm the community needed to to occur but I I didn't believe that the consent was was for this uh from from the people that were called the resident side of this is that not the case or I misunderstanding that I I don't think that there really was a request for consent I mean I know that the residents were concerned about this in particular yes M so just for clarification there were approximately four folks that represented the residents on on this committee this is like an ad hoc committee how were the folks chosen for this and did they represent the the the for example the the folks that were representing the citizens uh or that were citizens or residents I'm sorry residents right um how were they selected and were they actually representing them so they were actually and the BRC there really wasn't about representing in terms ter of the business res resident uh City it actually came out of the downtown task force so it it's like a subcommittee of the downtown task force so the downtown task force we asked for applications for people to submit an application and and we essentially appointed uh segments representatives from the different areas from the retail from the hospitality industry from the city to sit down and discuss the issues that we had in the city as it pertain to noise um and some of those items it really wasn't a you know you are officially representing these people and you are your you are their voice it was really let's all get together and discuss and so the city can really understand what it is that um is impacting the the you know the commercial areas what what it really is that the residents are concerned about um and what we had decided to do was to work in some some very specific areas that that had drawn a lot of uh comment and one of those was um some of the outdoor activity in downtown and the outdoor dining in downtown so um we we then uh kind of we did our job we brought to the four those items that were issues those items that were priorities as agreed upon all of those items by the BRC excuse me by the downtown task force and then we essentially convene a smaller subcommittee to work specifically on those items and it really was about put and soliciting all of that input and that's really in the outdoor dining you're going to see that input from from each and every one of those areas um so so it really wasn't a matter of you are formly representing this person or that person it was a matter of let's hear your voice let's get your input so that the city understands uh some of the obstacles for for all those areas so they actually weren't even Representative no uh or or they certainly were not represent but they were not even they were volunteers they were concerned volunteers yeah so but they weren't representative of of a cross-section or or anything within the they were in the industry and for example obviously to be a resident you have to be a resident makes sense um if you were a brewery then you had to you know our breweries they own the brewery they are the the Proprietors of those breweries we had several people who own retail businesses on it and that type of a thing so thank you I'm really was just asking about the the the the resident side of it okay right then I was going to they to be I was going to ask about the business side but they just had to commissioner they just had to be a resident okay um the I notice on here um I I know there was at least one or two that had an issue about the Striking of this in the first paragraph So this violation includes sound generated inside a structure or outside a structure that is a is that a change that's obviously being struck so yes we're recommending that that that that is struck and they did have concerns about that yes and so that is that is a change it's not it's not just a clarification this is a literally a change you know I feel I feel didn't you just split the two up we did split up yeah so it's not that much of a change if you look at that I did I didn't think so I thought that it clarified it I thought that there was a kind of a double anandra if you will within the ordinance so um but it the clarification led to the amendment so you could say it's a change also but I think if you look at hni what they did is tried to split it up for more clarification is that correct George that's the way I took it that's just my feedback so um the uh just a question from from a noise side just a general question so for example uh we're not talking just about Amplified noise is that correct we're talking about the noise generated from The Establishment yes I'm sorry we're talking about the yes the to totality of noise generated from theity of noise so for example if someone um just for clarification real simple example if someone were had a hammer and a piece of wood and they were hitting that piece of wood every 3 minutes with a hammer um they probably would not be violating this noise ordinance probably not um but if they kept pounding all the time they would be is that correct so the noise ordinance actually IT addresses that um it talks about construction and it talks about equipment and that type of a thing so um um I'm just I'm just using the Hammer as an example of noise being created rather than given another example but that was just an example I'm not talking about construction it's continuous yeah so so then this would apply to that at that time after 11 you guys standing in the hallway there are seats open you can come in right right in this section in particular come on and there's some seats over here there's seats up here so ahead commissioner go ahead I you know it's difficult commissioner because the deputies would have the discretion when they arrive at at the site if it's a construction site going to make that noise all day long and the code speaks to construction and construction that type of a noise not being unlawful an unlawful noise so I would really I would really need to understand what the noise is how it's being generated how long it's been generated and that type of thing before I could say yes it is or no it isn't so what did they do before before this change if that occurred my example occurred remember I'm just using the example that something is eliciting a loud noise I I don't understand the question once more for me so is this just for Amplified music no so it's for any any noise right so if I'm making noise with a hammer M which I could do um but it's just an example and I did it every 3 minutes probably would not be be caught up as a as a no in this noise ordinance I I think it would though I think if you read it commissioner it's internal combustion Construction equipment it says hammers dredges tractors um lawn guys I got a lawn guy that lives behind I mean a guy that lives behind me 7 a.m. on the dot every Thursday that lawnmower goes up but that's it's legal but I'm it it covers all of that if you if you look at the ordinance it's under Section 10741 do2 exemptions okay I I used just the hammer I tried to explain I was just using the Hammer as an example so the public would would would MH get the get this point so let's say I'm howling I'm not using the hammer but I'm howling every 3 minutes mhm okay does that fall if it's every 3 minutes does that fall within this within this ordinance and if and if and if I Hollow all the time yeah I would say somebody else is going to come get you if you're holling all that time but anyway I don't know your wife might have Debbie might have something to say about that John um you know I think that that that that that how howling if it's you know over 65 DB howling is an example so don't that noise generated some noise is being generated somehow from someone that's not normal right in the in the neighborhood right and this and that is covered within this ordinance I think it's covered within this ordinance and other ordinances as well thank you yeah thank you um can you just give us a a a quick example or a quick um summary of the the decimal levels that are used by by municipalities M some don't use any some use some but if you would just clarify that so so some don't use any for example um I had a long conversation today with the former city manager Safety Harbor um and he's now the assistant of the County Administrator Matt Spore and safety Harbor's um ordinance has loud rockus it doesn't have a deciel reading at all and I called him because I you know my question to him was how do you like that it's a little subjective isn't it and he he thought it was not that it was very effective um because again it's at the discretion of the Deputy if there's hooting and hollering or somebody you know screaming for hours then they're going to come and and they can enforce that section of the code as part of the unlaw noise so I know that that uh and we did look into it and I'm sorry I don't recall I think pelis County was 72 DB before 10 and 50 after 55 after yeah go ahead Bob no just we just learned eore is 85 debb is eore yeah and I don't know any others thank you thank you sir you good thank okay commissioner go thank you mayor uh Jennifer you talked about as far as um piggybacking on the vice mayor and whether or not the ordinance has any teeth and you had mentioned three times and seven times can you confirm was that violations or just complaints I think that would need to be citations it would need to be violations yeah okay okay and how long does it take the deputy to set up once he arrives on scene if I can put it that ter on scen you know I really don't know so I asked uh Deputy Sky pack could you just come on up Sorry by don't I see you everywhere you're at every meeting you're at every meeting I'm at you do and that's a compliment a little bit of everything how long does it take you to set up if you have a a noise complaint microphone yeah is this is it on yeah Green Light okay uh the setup for itself is maybe 30 seconds it takes you longer to find a spot to sit than it does to actually set it up um it comes in like a clam a clim shell type briefcase and all you have to do is open it up um plug in our printer in the actual sound meter instrument and you can begin a calibration which is another minute or so um and then you can take the actual reading so all in all from start to finish from getting there and getting ready to set up like minute minute and a half just to get the calibration done and just to clarify um earlier for the time that we take the reading for since I heard it we require a minimum of 1 minute um you can go up to 2 minutes if you want um we base that off of what kind of background noise we may or may not have if we're taking it down on Douglas Avenue and I'm 30 seconds into the reading or 45 seconds and we have a semi- Tru go by something like that we might extend it a little bit further than the one minute just to uh make sure we get a true average over time of what it is and we kind of cancel out all the noise spikes that may or may not occur depending on where you're taking it okay thank you thanks Matt thank you and uh the piggy back on commissioner TGA and the howling uh if I bring my goat no I'm kidding I'm kiding oh my God no but but okay you know you're going to throw me over the edge right I'm going to smack you you're within distance um but my my my question is and maybe it was more direct to than for John's point is that right part of this conversation has been um playing adult games late at night cornhole things of that nature which are going to require it could be silent until somebody scores gets a point and then you're going to get that small crowd that cheers right and so how does that tie into the enforcement you're going to get that 2minute average of over but certainly if I'm a resident I'm going to hear that every 3 minutes 5 minutes or however time scores are are measured M so that that's really not inherent um or or within the parameters of this ordinance itself that the the loud cheering you might Spike up to 80 and then you're done so and it's hard to to because they're establishing a base right the base of the noise that to me really is a function of um first of all if if the deputies are called um they're going to to enter the business and and try to calm the folks down whatever it is they're doing please you know keep it down they're your neighbors are sleeping that type of a thing you know enforcement really is crucial in those terms and how it is that they work the issue and the complaint uh talk to the manager have the manager go out and ask them to keep it down a little bit please so um but this in in of itself because it's difficult because you you you can't stop you know people will shout their example is used at the LPA the other day we'll shout to each other in the street hey you know and it might be above 65 DB so we can't we can't address every single incident or every single uh episode in within this the body of this ordinance um if it's if it's an establishment where there are people outside and they're making a lot of noise and you call the deputies um they might get the decibal reader out or they might just just approach you know the management and people outside and say it's time to time to move along you you know you're being a little loud and you've had a little too much so and I know that's happened okay yeah I can I can see the challenges with that if I'm a resident and yeah have somebody shouts uh I can't remember who Bill shouted to last night was it or Monday night was it Joe Hey Joe I think it was Larry was it Larry hey Larry Larry yeah you're going to get a spike from that and if I'm a resident and that wakes me up it's like what was that mean don't even know what it was that woke me up other than I'm up but a cheering and a game something that's going to be consistent every 3 minutes every 5 minutes or something like that just about the time I start to knot off I'm going to get woken up again and and so it's a matter of whether or not it it can be somewhere in this ordinance the businesses need to know that M and so maybe that's more my point and I'll say those comments for for later hey Jeff yes ma'am can I just tag for a minute just cuz you know that was kind of what I was getting to and I you know we were saying we we're going to wait until the other ordinance but that's because that's exactly my issue too like you know when you look at cornhole it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that at 1:00 a.m. in the morning you're playing cornhole outside there's going to be hey where to go where to go where to go and then it's going to go away you haven't broken the noise ordinance but if you constantly are doing that like to me that's what the Scotland people are worried about like are you are you kidding me like constant like Hawking it up and you know cheering and it's not going to hit the so that's where like I yeah and and Jennifer and I talked about it so same thing I don't know if you again you want to talk about it the other reading where it's more late it's up to it's up to you all of you of course you know to me it is a concern and I right and well thank you vice mayor CU yeah it's it's a real concern for me um I don't know how it will be addressed in in this so I'll just throw that out there and I guess my my last question is back to the teeth and it seems to be focused on teeth for the businesses but in their defense is there anything in here about those uh M kravits that are constantly calling and almost harassing the businesses is is is there anything that can be done on that side as as well there there can be I mean we can there there's nothing in here now that addresses that that situation specifically um but subject to consensus direction we could look into that and make a recommendation to the city commission I want to tag in on that one okay and and that was that was all that I had if I if I can jump in on that if you don't mind Rob um you mentioned earlier Jennifer pattern of new activity there can be a pattern of nuisance activity on the other side we've seen it with several businesses over the years um I've been on the Das for 18 years and I've seen it for 18 years where one person maybe two group together and continuously call every single weekend on a particular business um there are some where there have been no violations and in my in my mind if somebody calls I don't know what the number of times are but if they call over and over and over on a consistent regular basis weaponizing the situation against a business then they should get a nuisance as well if there's a violation there's a violation no no no clapping but we've seen it and we've seen it where it's been organized and targeted and so as much as is for both sides for both sides of the coin to protect our residents they have a right to call but when you talk about Bad actors yep there have been a couple businesses that have been bad actors but we've also had a couple of residents that have been bad actors too and so there has to be consequences on both sides so that businesses aren't trying to torture the residents and residents aren't trying to torture the business so I don't know what the answer is to that but I agree we have to have an answer to that I would want that our Sheriff's Department to see it for what it is and have a very clear Road and maybe you can come back at the second reading and tell us what that might look like good luck with that trip in Scotland muddling that in your head uh and I did say I was done but I actually do have a couple more questions um it seems to me uh Jennifer in h and I the real heavy lift is the decibel rating mhm yes and so if I'm a business can I have a decimal reading at my property line ever above 65 DB if you're a business can you have above 3 in the afternoon so so you're and I rock out and Yeah given given that before by rocking out you know John Denver yeah you know you know what a phonograph is too don't you so um before before 11:00 the the decimal reading is taken from the property line of the complaintant so it would follow that yes at the property line of the business it would be it could be above 65 DB okay so so before 11:00 p.m. it's at the complaintant property line yes okay and you could be rocking out you good good me and Barry Manalo yes indeed you done uh um yes ma'am I am done thank you okay commissioner Walker thank you mayor yeah now I have to get this image of commissioner gal rocking out to Barry Mano I don't know class of what are you class of 77 Falcon 79 79 Falcon there was pretty good music in 1979 those sticks yeah um so Jennifer in your discussions uh with Captain Jackson and I know he's reviewed this and uh I know that the deputies have been trained on the use of the equipment um in in his opinion because one of the objectives in this was to make the enforceability provide some clarity on the enforceability right because before U that was most certainly not clear and uh you know it it was kind of the Genesis of a lot of problems that arose um so my question is uh does what what is his opinion on the enforceability of this so uh Captain Jackson read through it um he uh and in fact he was he was he had wanted this clarification he requested this clarification and so um he's he's pleased with it he supports it uh and believes that it is it is fully enforcable thanks and I'm just going to tag on to the to the weaponization of the complaint um so help me understand again um how that process works now I get got a little bit confused with regards to the complaintant possibly not uh you know doing it anonymously or something to that effect what how do we handle the anonymous complaints we cannot act on an anonymous complaint okay right that's a state law yes right not anything that we've admited okay yeah I just wanted to clarify that um and in terms of uh the the CPO um I know we're we're talking about 3:00 a.m. what do you think the timeline is going to be for to to nail down that that particular agreement um well so need to be out to it quickly because you're going to have the sheriff's contract before you you you you renew it annually um and so I need to uh reach out re-re out to Katherine Jackson and you know one of the things that that I need to State for the record though is that he and I had this conversation um about going past the 11:00 and he he does not support that in terms of there's just not the call volume so what we're really looking for is the presence and not the call volume um and so and that's why one of the things that I'd like to to do is talk to him about when we're we are in season here when you know there are a lot of folks wandering around downtown and um and they want to stay out late they're on vacation is having the the deputy until 3:00 a.m. at that point till the later of the uh of the drinking establishments close um but not during the summertime I I just don't think that that we need it so um but again though there is not a lot of volume it would be more about having the presence of a deputy in downtown commissioner can I jump a question on that Jennifer how many I'll just say in the downtown I think you told me this at one time how many places do we have that are open till 3:00 in the morning five like five one two so I can answer that question of course a friend of mine told me that uh it's not a lot no it's asking for a friend for businesses that close at 2 or 3:00 there's six of them yeah four or 3:00 2 at 2:00 okay so and not all of those are on a but residential property either correct so I think that's why there isn't a lot of call volume sorry I just I appreciate that no it's true there sometimes it's like really you think there's a whole bunch but there isn't I appreciate the commissioner doing all this research since we're jumping in on this Rob if I could jump in as well I'm sorry just when we talk about this though and this is one of the challenges that I had was the whole concept of whether or not you move next to an airport and you're complaining about it and if that's the logic we're going to take then I don't care what time your business closes when I'm looking at this ordinance I don't care cuz you may not be here next week but who's going to take your place I don't care that it's now a bookstore if it is zoned for entertainment I've got to look at that placement and and and look at all of that so the idea of what time a residence or what time a business closes that it's a a little impact businesses turn over and we if we're going to expect a resident when they move close to a Zone it should have been on them to analyze and understand what was moving in next to them or where they're moving to we as a as a board as a commission need to understand is there a question in there uh no ma'am I was just piling on his I'm sorry I'm I'm I'm preaching I guess no no I have some of the same comments okay and yeah I don't know when these bleed from questions or comments I point taken that my I was just making a point Thank You commissioner mayor I have no further questions we just stole all your time well was covered sorry okay um all right now is the time for public comment remember no clapping we'll do it all at the end yes ma'am oh yeah okay all right I've got all the cards um Jason you're up give us your name and address for the record three minutes there's a clock right there my name is Jason cyber I live at 1756 Ranchwood Drive South in beautiful denen Florida and what else I got do I swear stuff in or something all right good all right so uh on the issue of sound Generation Um we have a lot of people that are making rules about um about when sound needs to end and we have m multiple cultures that are represented in downtown there are cultures that go to bed at 11: and there are cultures a lot of them that are employed by people like me that don't go to bed at 11 and those cultures should be a valid and understood and equally represented uh culture as well um I don't want to forget my neighbors the people that live around in Eden are my customers and my friends and I love them um we we uh one one question I have for you guys is you we got festivals downtown is there is there uh room in there for festivals as well because that's near and dear to my heart St b's day um also uh rash's Behavior as you don't happen to wear green for that Festival do you just say underwear um rash's behavior I'm not a police officer and I can tell my uh my patrons you know only have a little bit of a good time but it's very difficult for me to say you can't have a good time especially when they're standing in a public sidewalk in a country that has a right to assemble um chronic complainers you know I had a chronic complainer across the street for me um at flanigans and that that business changed hand thanks God that went on for Generations that went on for Generations were because I think you guys like three generations old or four generations old but anyways the police showed up and said hey if you do this again you're going to jail to the complaintant and I hope that happens here um because legitimate complaints are legitimate complaints but but when somebody weaponizes complaining um you know we should put them in jail um and if you do buy a house near downtown you need to understand that the culture you're moving to is a specific thing and that even if you buy a house downtown and it's by any downtown in the world that town is going to grow and noise is going to grow with it and the last thing I'll say is the same thing I said in the meeting the other day the sky is blue water is wet and downtown D is an Entertainment District I've been coming here for 20 years to be entertained thank you thank you Jason okay um I hope I don't butcher this name Peter delakas uh oh he's suiting up or UNS suiting maybe welcome give us your name and address for the record Peter 514 Ashlin Avenue Tarpon Springs welcome Peter it's good to see you again we were on the pinelis county school transportation board back in 0405 yes we were and I just want to speak a little bit about a couple things there were some things said that I want to address but what I was thinking about here before you have created an Eclectic cosmopolitan City if you reading the business Observer Central Florida we had record number of tourists from UK Canada all over the world people come here from all over the worlds a lot of the European patterns are you're up during the day you take a little siesta you go out at night you're out till 1 or two so I'm glad you took out the vacate part in the uh that's the second outside but you create an Ambiance so my first thing is and the lady uh city manager said Safety Harbor has no decibal levels but they have no complaints so one I think the 65 I know seems to been in there from what I read previously but it's being carried over but I have a problem with the hours what why 11 the lady mentioned that it was from an old 2008 study what was denen like in 2008 it was a quieter town but you have worked to build the goose that was spoken about Monday by so many people I come from Tarpon I've been coming to the brewery since I don't know 16 20 years and one of the Beauties is like I go to Sterlings and after they end up I hear some music oh let me go up to the living room or the SmokeHouse or down to blurr or further up the wood right you have created like the gentleman said an Entertainment District so why kill it so first off if you're going to set hours during the week 12 weekends Friday Saturday one or two but I want to also talk actually about the Ordinance one when I read it it does not show an appeals process and I think it's a it's a burden to anybody who wants to appeal to have to go to Circuit Court as compared to a code enforcement board when we have City violations they go to our code enforcement board just like you have when the lawn was overgrown and it cost you $45,000 and all those suits that were your way back so I'm aware of some of your stuff so thank you for the reminder okay so uh an appeals process also I didn't see in the meeting at the pnz anybody from the Sheriff's Office to describe the whole process from a call generated how they deal with it their parameters and there's no guidelines in the ordinance defining that and some questions that were asked I think the City attorney or acting City attorney should respond to because you do have some other constitutional things like freedom of speech and assembly thank you thank you appreciate it okay Kimberly Platt aloha aloha I had a COR on shot to I'm great Aloha I'm Kimberly plat I own the property at uh 516 Grant Street which is the Hy restaurant noise how do we get here where have we been what has the BRC accomplished a lot I wanted to tell a little story here because we formed the BRC as there is so much tension between and total major dysfunction between residence and business two years ago it was ugly it was not a good look for dun Eden so what happened is that it ES relateded to the point that a business downtown had their any ability to have any music in their outdoor taken away from them because of complaints from a resident it was as I keep saying ugly um did any of you eat there during that time you don't have to answer this but I did yes for lack of a better word it sucked to sit out back and only hear silverware tinking on plates I was uncomfortable and I told the business owner later I will do anything I can to help you out with this and I did I spoke for him um when the time came however the resident that was the complaintant also stood up for him at the meeting for I wrote it down what is it called conditional use approval yes conditional use and approval um that Resident that was complaining shook hands with the business owner and made friends and stood up at that meeting and said give him his music back and we were all happy and we all felt good and accomplished and we were like hooray this is working aloha's back in Den Eden fast forward 6 months we're back throwing stones calling names calling authorities trashing each other on social media and demanding that each side gets their rights we can do better than that we should do better than that this community is amazing um that Resident that complained is back on the other side and complaining again I was so proud of him when he stood up for that business and now I'm so disheartened by a few residents that have kind of circled the wagons and are are back where we were so long ago um I hate backwards motion I'm not good with it um honu doesn't really have a dog in this fight so I've been told um we have a couple Neighbors we talk to them um you know I am positive that we broke the noise ordinance when we did chainsawing some tiys out back positive but our neighbors didn't complain because we talked to them before um we're building this incredible incredible beautiful palaa out front from the ungodly heat and nuisance of rain that people can be there we're also planning on moving our music up front where there are zero residents so the people if they are people moving behind us they don't have anything to worry about so the statement is for everyone let's not go backwards thank you Kim okay Eddie it looks like black sheet okay [Applause] sorry welcome my name is Eddie bler I live at 1730 North MLK Jun Avenue Nu Clear Water I seen downtown go through its highs and lows but what I don't understand is I don't get it why these neighbors are mad at noise or if they talking loud or not y y'all are mad at something other than D if they close the outside of These Bars after 11:30 p.m. he asking the bartenders and the bar BS and service to lose money and that ain't right at all these bartenders in downtown done needing and bar bats and oners work hard and it shouldn't come down to this at all this all I got to say thank you Edie okay Mike Bry come on down welcome welcome thank you mayor thank you commission thank you city manager um just want to take a quick moment to commend city manager Bramley on our work on this um as an operator of a venue that's been harassed by just a couple individuals over and over to the point that it does not make work fun um you know that pressure I sometimes Express that pressure outward and I expressed it toward Jennifer Bramley very uh starkly and um me too she ultimate what's that I said me too by the way I'm at 518 Bel trees Michael Bryant um but you know eventually um she heard me and took it upon herself to do the research and found that the evidence was in the same favor that my family's been going off of for nearly 30 years um since 2001 in downtown so I just want to say thank you very much for for that um and I'm just going to take I really don't have anything to say I think you guys all sound very reasonable you're listening to both sides asking questions from both sides and that I think is what the community wants from you so I appreciate it and I'm just going to say I apologize Jeff gal we don't need to do the details but I just wanted to say it officially to you so thank you for your time I appreciate you guys thank you Mike okay Andy Lawrence excuse me welcome hello honorable Council um okay uh I I'm Andy Lawrence of 3004 West Nassau Street and if you've been in the game long enough you've know that my voice doesn't really need a microphone so I'm going to stand back a little bit so um I I my position on this is pretty clear frankly and I'm going to I'm going to bounce two ideas that was already brought up by mayor Bowski and commissioner gal uh the first being vexation vexatious litigant that's what you're talking about vexatious that we've allowed the residential um component of downtown dead Eden uh to allow a few very um small voices to just constantly harass the businesses here um that mistake was made by allowing so many residences into downtown D which I really don't think was the vision so um I I can't really say out loud that I I care about a very small number of people complaining because that was just going to happen and then with commissioner GA on the same deal somebody moves in a downtown to Eden and they complain the whole question is who made you do that like was there some kind of hostage situation that forced you to buy a residence right next to the dudan brewery because I grew up I grew up a block from on Grant Street I had no complaints whatsoever and even if I did I am an intruder I mean it predated my existence there and I it wouldn't even occur to me to complain but we obious obviously do have people complaining which is why this whole meeting is happening and I think it's it's frankly just an outrage thank you thank you greato love you that's what happens in a small town you know you're having a rockus discussion and we love each other anyway if I could say to Andy is actually former city manager John Lawrence's son so he grew up here and John was city manager for what 22 years so so yes he's been around for a while and understands how things work he used to eat lunch at skips I think you know only man louder than me that ever existed okay John Diddy I I don't you're up for three minutes on this one Andes okay gotcha tight 3 minutes gotcha just letting you know but sincerely thank you all commission and city manager I appreciate all your thoroughness my name is John Didier uh 1969 Dunlow Circle uh stage Nam John Diddy most everyone here on the commission already knows me I'm a local musician conducting a sizable amount of my business here in the Duneden community I would like to express my support for officially passing this noise ordinance clarification despite the criteria having already been defined for years by either the current city manager or prior City officials through uh formal documented Avenues of communication it has been a continuous roller coaster ride involving rotating members of penell County Sheriff's Office not being properly educated and alerted to its Nuance resulting in repeated erroneous enforcement I speak speak from experience as an end user back when I was working at Duneden Brewery Circa 2018 where I was threatened with personal citation by several officers who brazenly claimed that they knew the law after presenting them with a documented exchange between City officials and owners Mike and Candy Bryant I was able to avoid the fine bullied against my person given that there is often a clear disconnect between some of what the city of Duneden invokes as law and how penel County Sheriff's Office chooses to prosecute I further encourage the city who no longer has their own Police Department to instead consider consider finding the business entity rather than the individual in situations of noise ordinance violations regarding local businesses whether the business plans to recompensate the seemingly innocent employee operating under the directives of the business ownership if wrongly served a citation by pcso said employee now person Ally burdened with the task of defending him or herself in court since the city of dedan pcso and the pelis county clerk of the circuit court all function as separate entities there is practically no accountability for an error made within any of these sectors I confront you with this information based off my personal experience with the system to conclude my comments I'd like to argue that the deciel reading criteria outlined in this clarification is the Middle Ground solution while you haven't necessarily pulled the citizens I would venture to say that there are a substantial number of residents who would much prefer the zoned downtown core to have the ability of being an allnight party whether that's indicative of the majority or not it would clearly exclude the opposite perspective considering this ordinance is more restrictive for the Zone Downtown core than County standards dictating residential noise I think that it's more than fair and for the bulk of its implementation since its Inception in the 2000s these criteria have succeeded until now just fine thank you I sincerely appreciate you all thanks John okay uh giselda ader that's Gela with a oh good evening everyone um I'm chisala AER from 718 Rowan Oak Street in duny I uh been here for about I think 16 years and um I came from Chicago and um I worked in the hospital 3 to 11 as a unit secretary I was a young age and um I saw a lot of things a lot of different things that as a young person at that time I needed a place to go and decompress and I found music and moving forward going faster onto where I'm at now when I first moved to deden I was really um saddened by the fact that everything closed at 11: and I'm like I wake up at 11: I mean the brain doesn't like you know you're on work mode you got to do this you got to do that and then you want to decompress and come to find out there's nothing there at 11:00 because I'm getting off of whatever but I I am here for d done it in Brew Brewery family because they've always welcomed me I've never had any issues any problem as a female I go to places where I feel comfortable and I I have I feel like it's a safe place for me and never have I ever felt unsafe never have I felt that there was any kind of ruckus I never felt any disrespect towards anyone both sides we say hello in passing or close by I feel like they my family that I've discovered you know I I come here and I'm like sometimes I'm a antisocial I'll go in and just do myself and then when I'm ready to go out I know that deden is there and at 11:00 is just seems very arbitrary and very rigid because we have students at a teaching hospital that are my age now that work in that kind of schedule where do they have to go nowhere and D Brewery has provided for me and I am Pro changing the time I think it should go 12:00 Monday through Friday um Thursday and maybe 2:00 on the weekends I don't think that the person that lives that um lived at the resident did not do their du due diligence in checking for a resident where they want to live they bought a house donum Brewery is my home outside of my home there's a difference between a house and a home they might have purchased it for higher investment to sell later on to move on and then go reinvest somewhere else it just does not seem fair to the people that been here before they were it seems very arbitrary and it just doesn't seem like we have a v voice in like who makes up these rules why is it that when my parents live in Safety Harbor I can go downtown anytime thank you thank you okay Mia heartley good evening everyone welcome sorry I have my laptop up here I just have to collect my thoughts I'm Mia heartley I live at 680 71st Avenue in St PE Beach Florida I'm a gigging musician and often frequent uh dun brew and a couple other establishments here in dun Eden and I'm also a practicing attorney six months in so pray for me good luck thank you I'll keep my comments brief um the new language that's suggesting the threshold level of 65 DB in the nighttime stop of 11:00 p.m. are too restrictive on local small businesses additionally there's no suggested amendment to provide clarification as to how the harassment of local businesses will be addressed so for that reason I don't find the new language to be clarifying enough um I was lucky just two weeks ago I went to Edinburgh Scotland with my mother and met a painter who invited me to an open Jam that was happening in a courtyard outside uh so after I got some of my work done because work doesn't stop when you're on vacation when you're an attorney I headed to the open jam and we sang songs together we told stories together uh and it was a beautiful experience it all happened after 11:00 p.m. um and on my drive here today I was reflecting a lot on the history of dun Eden and I'm sure many residents know already that dun Eden is a uh a Gaelic or Celtic excuse me um word that symbolizes and stand stands for Edinburgh which is the capital of Scotland and I reflected on the culture of Scotland uh and where many of my ancestors come from and the idea of community and the bringing together of different cultures uh those cultures being entrepreneurs and creatives and young practicing attorneys and young nurses and young doctors who need to blow off a little bit of steam um especially after a demanding trial or something like that and it made me reflect on the experiences I had in Edinburgh and the basis of what the Eden was founded upon and for those reasons when I read this language and reflect on it I don't find it clarifying enough and I'm especially concerned with the harassment of these small businesses uh for such a Vibrant Community um and the time and dedication that's been mentioned before to build this into such an entertainment Hub where creatives go in the whole Tampa Bay Region to be together um I do think there needs more reflection on how limiting the language currently is and whether or not it addresses that consistent harassment that's been experienced by small businesses thank you thank you very much anyone else that forgot to fill out a card come on down anybody else besides this gentleman okay can you fill out a card we have cards to fill out I want to give everybody their chance but I this is how we're keeping record hi good evening welcome I'm Dan Graal I live at 601 Pinewood Drive here in dun Eden I've been coming to Dun Eden for over 20 years um asking the people of Don Eden to abide by a downtown curfew or noris ordinance that in most towns applies to a residential neighborhood is obsurd why would we have a downtown curfew and noise ordinance that is the same as a residential neighborhood 2 m from the center of town it doesn't make social economic sense to abide by that model a huge reason one goes to or moves to downtown area and the first place is to get out of their quiet home or neighborhood to see life being lived to listen to music eat dinner walk the streets and laugh there's a large section of the city that are artists musicians poets writers performers Etc these are people that are on a completely different schedule because they come alive at night for them their day is just beginning they perform display and then stay afterwards to talk with friends and guests or exchange ideas with their peers or just playing let off steam from a long week it doesn't make any sense to try to impose HOA or apartment building Courtyard rules to an official business establishment in a downtown area which by the way one consciously chooses to move into dun Eden is a great retirement community you can choose to move into a retirement home and have retirement rules or you can choose to move into a vibrant thriving downtown area he shouldn't be able to have both I can't move into a condo and then change the rules to be loud when I say so how can someone move into a downtown area and tell an established business to be quiet when they want them to be it's kind of embarrassing that we as a community have even excuse me it's kind of embarrassing that we as a community have even have to even debate this we're talking about downtown we are here essentially debating on whether or not we should stifle the social and economic growth of one of our greatest assets the sounds of a thriving downtown should be should not be just caused by a very small minority to change the social and economic rhythm of this town if you're going by what the community wants I would ask that you use this room as your barometer thank you thank you come on give your name and address for the record hello hi my name is Maria f in and my address is 1818 Sunset Point Road um I definitely want to start by saying that though I am young I have lived in pelis County my entire life and I am just here to not debate what times we need to restrict The Sound Ordinance but I do want to make sure that we are definitely clarifying because there is a majority that hasn't been considered I feel like though it has been brought up earlier in the session there are a large number of people who don't work in Duneden but live here and we go outside of the city and we travel to other towns and then come back home after work to enjoy the town that we live in to make the money to bring it back to where we live and there are a lot of people that work for hospitals veterinary clinics things that we all benefit from and they also have a right to go home at the end of their long days when they get off of their shifts at 10:00 11: and drive back from Tampa St Pete or other town that are over a half an hour away to wash the blood off of their scrubs and their hands and be able to go out and see their friends and eat dinner just like anybody else would that gets off at 5: or works till Thursday and has their weekends to themselves those people deserve those rights to be able to go out and see their friends be able to express themselves and as you said for a moment maybe be a little bit louder than they need to be but also it takes away from Duneden when you take the part of it that people come to it's not just a matter of I went out tonight and I got boisterous with my friends the people you don't consider are the people that moved away from deden maybe to another state and now they're flying home and they finally get home and they found out maybe they flew home because their parents died and they finally get to be somewhere where they feel comfortable and at home and downtown and not only are they coming to a place where they feel comfortable but there are still people to greet them with love and respect when they get there it's hard to get off of a plane get off of a late shift or come from a far area and then find out that there's nobody there to greet you with a warm face to make you feel welcomed or to make you feel like you have a place that you can go where at the end of the day you're respected you feel comfortable and you feel like you can actually be there and it's a fun place to be and so that's just something I want to consider when the board is actually going through and clarifying those coordinate ordinance to make sure that you're considering not just the people that own breweries not just the people that are upset because they just moved here but the people that have watched this town grow who have gone to the middle school high school elementary school and think to themselves one day I'm going to be able to go out when I'm done with my job spend my money and see my friends the way I want to and enjoy the town in the time frame that they have to enjoy it and that's all I have to say thank you very much thank you anyone else anyone else come on this is the noise one that we're talking about okay just making sure hi there I'm Chris Hamilton 52 24.5 beltree Street uh I've been a penel county citizen for approximately 40 years and I've been a Dun Eden citizen for Just Two Weeks shy of a year welcome yeah so I'm new to here but not new to here uh very familiar with the dun Eden area lived and worked in this area for uh my the whole time I've been down here to be honest with you and uh worked locally for seven and a half years uh one of the things I found is the downtown makes dun Eden famous people come to Dun Eden because of the nightlife and the the downtown strip area of festivities so that's what makes dun part of the greater penel County community and people travel from all over the world to come and visit here now as a newer resident I moved in to what is a city with the city there's going to be noise I also moved into an area where I've got a stadium and I've got an elementary school so I happen to work late at night because of my employment makes me work later and all day long I hear the noise but I knew that when I moved there all right it wasn't a surprise I've got a big Stadium lots of noise lots of traffic uh you'll hear fireworks you'll hear people screaming you'll hear in a in a good way and a bad way okay um you'll hear uh uh the bullhorn of a teacher telling a child hey your mom's here to pick you up or your dad's here to pick you up you hear that all night long you hear them playing out in the uh playground right out front of my house that being said I knew that when I moved in and I took that into account so when I moved here if I didn't like that area and the noise that would be associated with it I would not have decided to lease that property I plan on being here a long time I plan on enjoying this place for a long time uh I do realize there's going to be noise and I'm here to enjoy the noise that noise is part of dun Eden and what makes dun Eden great thank you thank you anybody else okay we'll come back to my colleagues so now what I'd like to do um is anybody willing at this point to make a motion to start the discussion I'll move approval second okay vice mayor discussion final comments well I mean obviously I think this is the easier one I I think that I you know I left the needen um work in 2006 I went to work for the county and uh and when I was still here in 2006 I can still remember back when uh the noise ordinance became a thing because it was marinova and flanigans and uh and it was constant and when I left uh to go to work at the county one of the things I was so thrilled about is that I didn't have to lead figuring out the noise ordinance um so I don't know that anybody's ever happy about it's not a perfect science so where how do we get there but I do know that this particular noise ordinance has lasted 16 years and I have told both sides of the equation of this that I am no rush to redo the noise ordinance and you can hear if you're listening to people some people think it's too harsh and some some people think it's too easy um I do think it's the middle ground I think all we're doing in regards to this is clarifying an Enforcement issue that was intended at the time it was adopted and therefore I think again this is the easier one for me and I I support it thank you vice mayor commissioner G second of the motion uh thank you mayor um I'm all over the place and we'll find out how this turns out even though I seconded the motion um what I do like about this ordinance is actually it's it's we didn't change anything we just simplified what it already in the code and so that is good 65 uh didn't change and so for anybody feels that this ordinance is constraining it never changed we just kind of rearranged the wording of it so we haven't restricted anything um just I I do question who we are as a community and and what we're doing I hear things like uh it's an Entertainment District which if you made a list of what that means uh and then compared it to comments that we hear all the time on the day that our downtown is charming full of character and unique I think you'd have a list that is entirely different and so what do you do in a community that part of us really wants that um Entertainment District and what that means which it's kind of a really strong and that's where you hear the comments about we're not in eore City whether or not we are heading that way whatever just the concept of Entertainment District that is where my head goes who are we as Entertainment District um for those people that whether you mooved next to an airport or not uh what happens when you move next to an air Park and then the Air Park becomes an airport and then that airport becomes a regional airport and then it's an international airport at what point did you understand what you were getting into and now it's totally outside the realm of believing and that each one of us in here looks at where downtown was 20 years ago nobody in here could tell us this is what it was going to become we had no idea so even as business owners you didn't know what you had so to put that pressure on the residents you should have known is a little misplaced Direction there and the idea of what really has made dun Eden different and the character that we talk about certainly is the buildings that we have it's the flower pots that we all want on on our light Poes Jennifer some but but it we want those flowers I'm sorry I brought it up I don't know how we got there from here but anyway it's his fault I still want them uh but but mainly it's really about the people and each one of you have even testified at the LPA and you we hear it all the time in our downtown for the visitors that come here the new residents that come here talk about the people all day long they are amazed at how friendly we are and when I see when I hear that on a day-to-day basis how friendly we are as the community yet you hear and watch and see the vital that has been thrown out on social media on both sides it makes me personally very sad cuz I love this community and we are so much better than that we heard at the LPA from one of the business owners that we're already seeing a drop in business because of this ordinance and I'll tell you that if you're if you're experiencing a drop in business it has nothing to do with this ordinance it has everything to do with what visitors are reading on social media and that would turn me off in a heartbeat and I don't mean to lecture you guys and I'm no one to give a lecture but it just we really need to understand who we are in the course of a business especially a family business the The Arc of that journey is the birth of the business the growth of that that business the maturity of that business and then the eventual decline of that business hopefully it's not eventually but you keep going and a lot of that is generational and so we had the the business owners that gave birth to or rebirth the Redevelopment of our downtown put their hard Blood Sweat and Tears into rebuilding this downtown and we've heard that this is now the second generation and so it really is we've got new businesses and as family businesses grow into that next generation and I'm talking about family business as a community I'm not picking on any one individual business just who we are as a downtown and the idea that as businesses grow they become more complex and families become more complex they grow now we got more family involved in the business and you got new businesses coming in and different businesses is and so it gets harder to control and harder to maintain we have to be cognizant of that because we aren't a downtown because of our entertainment business during we we're here because of our residents I know it takes more than the residents to make you all Thrive and we get that you you need the tourists you need them to come in we need we need clear water to be here we need St Pete we need Plant City to be here that's really gets us where we're going but I just go back to the pandemic and you saw on social media all day long the number of residents that were just begging people to support their businesses in our community and you saw menus being thrown out there and everybody was encouraging every everybody to keep our businesses thriving in in our downtown throughout our community and just personally yet I have not seen as a collective our business say say thank you to our residents cuz they work their ass off for you all during the pandemic and you've got residents that have lived here for 20 years and and they work during the day I understand the night life in your schedule and you need to blow off steam at night but we have residents that work hard during the day and they just want to get some sleep that's all and it's just a matter of when when does the airport grow next to you when does Air Park they thought they moveed next to become an international Air Park who are we as an Entertainment District and so those are all really important things that we need to decide who we are and and understand that it takes the residents and the residents need the businesses and we are all in this together and so I am going to be in support of this but I just needed to lecture I guess this has been stressful for everybody I understand it and I'm just one of those people that is really been stressing over this uh almost scared of tonight but anyway thank you all thank you mayor thank you Comm thank you commissioner Rob commissioner Walker thank you mayor you know I uh you know as uh elected officials you know we have a responsibility to listen to both sides and uh I uh honestly believe that I I think we've done that um um my personal story um we my wife Claudia and I lived on this PIAA um San Diego and uh it was it was in the heart of Little Italy and we literally across the Piaza was the Princess Pub directly below us was uh the Princess Pub yes ma'am that was your regular place well it was okay you're not going to live that one down it is funny um probably some of the anyway it was uh there there was always something happening and uh anyway we made a choice to live there and uh then fast forward the N9 months that we were there um we uh found our way to the needan as I affectionally call it a culmination of a seven-year journey and we ended up when we when we stopped and we um started you know appreciating what dened had to offer there were several things the vibrant night life the the people um and you know it took us it took us literally about 2 hours to decide you know to leave come here that well it was a 2-hour drive from where we were at um there's been a lot of misinformation on on what are in these ordinances and uh uh I think through the course of this dialogue this discussion I think that we've got a pretty good understanding hopefully we've cleared up a lot of the misconceptions no ordinance or any piece of legislation is perfect but what it should represent is a compromise um times change if there are any certainties in life growth is inevitable and our other responsibility is managing that growth um that growth uh I was not here during the during the 80s but uh when denan was not affectionately called Dead Eden um was uh and so when you fast forward from that period of time what has resulted is a vibrant en Envy of the region I think uh Peter Peter said eclectic and Cosmopolitan and uh for that reason and the other thing with regards to this particular ordinance um the one thing that we sought to do was to clarify it there there was too many inconsistencies it wasn't well understood and through the course of our our discovery on this particular issue and working with the Pinel sheriff's office in terms of us them showing us how the equipment works and what the output of that equipment is I I think we've got a pretty good idea of you know of of this being a much clearer way and a much more enforceability I am not in favor of establishing a police state but you know this is uh this this this is just a sign of the of the of the growth that we've experienced and how we how we address that so I am in favor of this um and thank you for time thank you commissioner Walker commissioner torka thank you mayor uh I will try not to spend too much time in my communication concerning this subject matter other than to say um I have been concerned about some of the information that's gone back and forth I was really looking for hardcore data um to make a decision like this I don't necessarily need it because I think what is what has occurred here um is that we've taken out one one sentence here that that is of an interest to some people others may not even notice it and that's this violation includes sound generated inside a structure or outside a structure I don't know that very many people know that and have really have understood that and by that I mean we didn't we have really not communicated well um with the entire community of D Eden and we always owe that it would be like us making a decision that affects you and you didn't know about it so um I have attempted to talk to a number of people um to the best of my ability about this subject matter um and uh but but that's just me and therefore then I don't even want to draw any conclusions for the other the other Commissioners here because it's not statistically sound many people don't know what's happen Happening Here the good news is really we're just outside of that one point we are just clarifying uh we brought up a lot of communication here that was actually not data it was just a buding what we were talking about here my first thing when I started when I really got into this was I asked the staff I said H really who's this affecting how many people are affected by this that's data how many people could it affect that's data um and and in other words um who is going to make a change and what they do for this and I know there's some of you out there are going to do nothing different um than than what this provides this is an 11:00 uh issue so uh I don't want to belabored that to any shape manner form I am I am just I I think we moved awful fast on on this um I think there's there's sometimes that we might even want to consider that that we let the entire the entire dunen make a decision some on something like this dun Eden isn't just the downtown uh Den Edens has a lots of lots of nice words that go with it um they like to talk about things like established neighborhoods of strong family values our educational system here some of the church some of the other things that go on here so it's so it's a lot of things that make this up uh make D eaten what Den eeden is we're a coastal city um as most of you as some of you know I've lived in a lot of different places uh I have lived in Europe I have I spent a lot of time in in Italy uh just because I like to go there there's places in Italy that Clos at 9:00 um period you try to order something after 9:00 and you're you're out they're on the Mediterranean they expect you to be having fun in the water during the day ralo as an example but I've also been in other cities visited a lot in Tokyo Etc they're open all night um we're not Tokyo we're a little bit more like ralo perhaps I don't see anybody making any big changes with this I think it's a clarification so I don't think I'm going to wax any any further about that and just and just say that um I I I wish we could have made this a little easier for everyone and not had have everyone as excited we talked about compromise um I'm not even sure what a compromise should or would be I he I've talked I've heard people talk about let's put up 8 foot fences as opposed to six foot fences I think that's for the outdoor dining no not the noise no I'm talking about people talking to me about the noise that and they're they're saying that's not going to help with the noise side of it um and I said well of course of course not so um there we go so okay I I so what's the bottom line are you supportive what are we saying we support it I didn't know that yeah I mean this is the final comments yeah well like I said I don't think this is a big change and and and I'm got I'm I'm going to go with this okay um Jennifer normally after public comment when there are questions I generally Look to You to clarify them and I I forgot my apologies so a couple of things were festivals and how do they fit in um if I remember correctly that's why all festivals have to stop at 11: they are exempt yeah they're exempt from the Ence it's section 10742 do2 prb okay so we're good there uh the there was a question why the 11: p.m. that it's too restrictive but that's for the Amplified sound that is for you don't have to stop music it's just outside music or Amplified well two points the Amplified sound and also where the the reading is taken from yeah yeah yeah okay the appeals process code board versus Sheriff um we don't have code officers out there is an appeal process that's built into the code for all code violations it just depends on which whether it goes to the code board a special magistrate or if they use the um uh the court citation system but there's an appeal process just doesn't for a citation there's yes there's an appe noise citation correct okay okay uh there was a question about or statement about uh the manager on duty versus the owner and if I seem to remember getting the citation um if I seem to remember they have to give it to somebody and usually the owner is not there at that time of night that's correct um but the manager is supposed to speak for the owner is that what's behind that yes okay um okay all right now from my family my final comments um and I appreciate all my colleagues due diligence and their dialogue I appreciate all of you being so patient to be here um and just listening to what my colleagues say I do get everybody's concern about some of the vitriol that has been going on here's the funny thing I have been here since 2006 I was here for the original noise ordinance it was a I can't say that word on TV it um it was extremely difficult at the time that we did it then and it was extremely hard and some of the ogs are in this room right now most of them are definitely watching when I say and they were the ones doing it you know the first generation business owners um were sitting on that ordinance with our residents um and with government it was the BRC in of 2008 mhm and they argued they compromised they came to a conclusion none of it was perfect but they all accepted it and back then in 2008 they were talking about we don't want dedan to be ebore we are in 224 now 2024 do we look even close to being ebore we don't and I guarantee you 10 15 years from now we won't be eore either you know why because that's not who we are we have zoning and people that have claimed this to be their home because they're unique artistic Souls we're not eore we're never going to be that and so I I don't want to hear people say that and if you heard eo's noise noise level is at 85 and ours is 65 so let's get a grip we're never going to be eore um and we're more restrictive than the county um we don't have that many people open until 3 p.m. by the way I'm not worried about the noise what I worry about is um we have a lot of people as commissioner Walker said no ordinance is perfect but we've had a lot of people for 16 years that have accepted this nory's ordinance if enforced correctly if and that is the big problem with this we needed it enforced correctly Jennifer you'll come back and at the second reading and tell us kind of maybe a a more definitive plan for the foot cop or you know the CPO and all of that hopefully at the second reading you will also come back and tell us what can be done or some thoughts about what can be done about the The Chronic reporter that weaponized is you know um action against our businesses too um because that does happen and it's hurt several people that I can see in this room and I I there has to be something that the sheriff can do that says you know you've called me 10 times in 30 days and there's not been one violation I'm going to write you a ticket now or something no I don't think they should go to jail but a ticket you know for being a nuisance and using public funds to be that nuisance I think is appropriate I'm very supportive of these clarifications I'm very supportive of this 3:00 a.m. cpos I know what the intent was with the noise ordinance I was here for it I voted for it and I have listened to all the ogs is in this community and um they still support it so Jennifer I thank you for solving trying to solve the enforcement problem I absolutely have my fingers crossed that this will that finally make it work cuz I never want candy Bryant to call me on the phone again I'm not even worried about Michael Lynn it's candy believe me she has a spark that you haven't seen um so thank you guys let's do a roll call vote commission oh wait did you did read by title only right yes okay sorry commissioner toring hi commissioner Walker hi commissioner gal hi vice mayor frainy hi and mayor buasi I that motion passes unanimously we have a clarification you can now clap so guys we're going to take a little Comfort break 58 minutes okay and then we'll come back and take up the next item [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] he [Music] [Applause] [Music] a [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] ah [Music] [Applause] [Music] okay guys let's start to Rally come on in and grab your seats [Music] [Music] yeah I think she is plenty of seats in here so come on and grab one can I say something not you out there okay are you out there are are you out there are you okay we will we'll take care of it what do you mean it doesn't matter okay anybody that's um out in the lobby there are plenty of seats in here if you want to come in and sit we're happy to have you um we'll bring the meeting back to order but I also want to remind everybody if they plan to speak to f out a card I do have a stack all right but if you haven't done so and you want to speak please fill out a card okay Sarah first reading of ordinance 24-23 amending the outdoor dining regulations an ordinance of the city of deden Florida amending section 10732 outdoor dining regulations of the city of dun Eden Land Development code to provide for outdoor hospitality and Sidewalk Cafe regulations amending appendix C development charges and impact fees to remove the fee for conditional use for outside dining and add a right of-way use agreement fee providing for codification providing for severability providing for conflict and providing for an effective date this is presented for first reading okay we're going to do the same thing as last time um we're not going to get a motion on the floor yet because we want to hear what everybody has to say Jennifer did you have any opening remarks to this I don't I'm going to hand it straight over to George mayor okay welcome George thank you mayor vice mayor Commissioners George Kenny on behalf of Community Development Department so much like the city manager I'll it this will be a little bit of a repeat for the folks that attended the LPA meeting this past Monday um but I did want to really quickly start with a little bit of background uh as we uh consider this ordinance uh Amendment uh the original ordinance uh that came into play in the city of dun Eden was ordinance number 1138 establish uh Land Development code section 10732 and that was uh uh U completed in December 15 of 2011 uh this this effort here as you'll see as we walk through this is a modification to that existing ordinance uh and I will walk through some of the changes between that ordinance and the proposal that will lay out before you uh I also included in this slide just a little graphic from the city uh master plan the CRA City master plan um and just as a just kind of an as an interesting piece you can see that back in 2009 when this city master plan was the CRA master plan was being considered there was a a survey if you will although a small survey and you can see the two items being number one and number 10 that more out more opportunities for outdoor dining were desired and sidewalk cafes were desired so it has been contemplated in the CRA and has been considered uh as part of of of this amendment and support we started this effort in January of 2023 with the uh with the assistance of the business resident City committee uh they had met on several occasions over the course of the of the development of this recommendation and have provided Direction on Amendment with the focus primarily targeting the CRA but as you'll see as I walk through this this this ordinance does apply Citywide not just within the CRA but I I bring this point because a lot of that discussion certainly shape the content of this proposed ordinance and it was a lot of of work over over a long period of time uh by way of background uh we uh did as part of that process over the year and a half offer an open invitation to meet with several businesses as we developed this project or this this proposal um to discuss both the review process and the potential development considerations that this that this um uh proposal would bring uh we did have at least four businesses take us up on that offer and did meet with us and we think uh we uh they they certainly have a really good understanding of what this proposal means to their to to their prospective businesses uh just to reiterate these regulations are Citywide uh not necessarily directed just at the CRA um but obviously the uh the the majority of what you'll hear today is probably those businesses in the downtown which are more active when it comes to outdoor dining opportunities and esta L Ms from a city perspective our interest is really about the public health safety and Welfare and that should be the city's interest and it's really specifically uh this ordinance is addressing the need for restrooms parking and means of egress when a site is at full capacity so that's really a lot of the driving force behind this as well some of these other things are um additional safeguards for ex for what we call externalities in the planning World these external impacts that result from from these kinds of activ activities um but the primary focus was on those Safety and Health and Welfare features from again from an intent perspective uh the the whole goal that we set out a year and a half ago to accomplish was to provide for Equitable regulations that could be consistently applied and that are mutually beneficial to both City residents and businesses and I would also add that are easy for us to administer from a staffing perspective uh the existing language makes it a little bit more difficult called this we think simplifies the process from an administrative standpoint uh the second major goal was to clearly separate the regulations in the two areas um and I think you'll see that if you've if you've looked at the ordinance we have clearly separated outdoor hospit what we're calling outdoor Hospitality which are those outdoor dining areas solely on private property against sidewalk cafes which are really those outdoor opportunities as the name indicates in the sidewalker in the RightWay um each of those uh have special considerations and those are hopefully clearly separated in this proposal before you for the outdoor Hospitality it does require a zoning permit uh that zoning permit can be administratively approved up to 2,000 square fet as we have it recommended I will just say very quickly that the current ordinance the way it's written allows us to do administrative approvals up to 500 square feet so this is an increase to that um and The Sidewalk Cafe as the commission may I don't know if the if there was many commission members on the Das at the time that the living room came in but that's really the the one RightWay use agreement permit that has been work through and that process we're not recommending that change between the existing process and and the proposed process so why is a permit needed we got this question uh several times through the course of development of this uh proposal um and really uh it's I kind of got it articulated in the slide the three main three main reason we really need a permit to see the operation is that an outdoor Hospitality by definition definition does not require a building permit so if it's open and uncovered a building permit is not required so we have no way from a city perspective to analyze the impact of that outdoor area absent some way of bringing that into our shop for a review and that's hence the outdoor dining permit uh this also provides an opportunity for us to through the course of that review assure that parking restroom facilities and fire safety measures are provided uh and they're provided according to both the building code and the Land Development code for whatever regulations may may be applicable and then finally uh we need a codified record for compliance purposes you heard a lot of discussion already about uh noise and and possible chronic nuisance applications and so forth that record needed to establish those types of those types of compliance uh actions so I I the next two slides is really just a uh an attempt to kind of talk to you a little bit about what's in that current ordinance and what we're recommending as part of the proposed ordinance uh and I kind of hit on the first two already uh the idea was to clearly separate Provisions for private property applications and RightWay applications Kathy we're picking on you where is she yes yeah I I was going to thank you we're using blur before I get to that uh and teeing off each of those particular sections in The Proposal are clear definitions so you'll see those embedded into the sections themselves and as the commission knows we're starting to work through a Land Development code kind of reorganization and we'll kind of that's kind of the theme that we'll be taking as part of that is to kind of bring those introduction those definitions to the front so it's clear from the beginning um the third bullet is regarding the overall size of an outdoor dining area uh and it's really not necessarily the the uh well I'm sorry so the overall size of the area as it's kind of dictated by what those limitations are on the lot and what I mean by that is a lot of how a outdoor dining area will be sized and shaped is based on the parking that's available or could be available the on-site parking the occupancy loads for a particular restaurant or or a uh or bar um and we really kind of think that a lot of that will kind of almost make this a self-regulating ordinance to a certain extent because it'll be that review and those design criteria that kind of Drive the the size of the area that can ultimately be approved for outdoor dining um I kind of kind of hit on this a little bit but the current the current process before an outdoor dining area would get into a public review perspective is 500 squ ft so we can approve anything administratively under 500 ft but once you hit 00 ft or more the current code requires you go to the to the board of adjustment and appeal you request a conditional use and then the board of adjustment appeal can place conditions on that approval that they deem appropriate we're suggesting to modify that process and to move it outside of a quasi judicial setting into a design review setting where a cap would be 2,000 square ft so that's a market increase but it that so we would be in that situation if approved we would be able to administratively approve everything up to 2,000 squ ft before it went into a public review process and the illustration at the bottom is intended to kind of show you what that 2,000 foot might look like obviously this is just an illustration you know you can there's many things that you can do in an outdoor dining area including bifurcatum so you know there might be a a you know a 500 square fet here that makes sense and maybe 500 square feet here that makes sense so that 2,000 can be kind of manipulated any way that's it's best for the property the owner um you can see just by this illustration this is kind of an example and and and Kathy yes we stole your we stole we did this using the blur as the example but you can see the lot uh dimensions 40t of Frontage 190 ft of depth uh you can see the existing building structures on the site that include the existing building the primary building at 40x 84 an smaller out building at 15 by 25 an existing food trailer and then how that 2,000 ft might fit into that and that's just that and again that's that 2,000 ft we could if approve could approve administratively and anything beyond that then would require public review uh a couple of other changes between the existing ordinance and the proposed ordinance uh the first is the existing ordinance does not allow for a transfer of the permit to a new property owner we're suggesting that that be removed and that the permit is transferable with the caveat that the operation in the approved area Remains the Same so if a new owner does happen to come in and wants a larger area or wants something different than what was approved that person would have to come back in that process for reveal uh the second bullet uh is regarding additional fencing requirements when a budding residential use so it's a simple illustration but you can see the illustration at the bottom of the slide and it gives you an idea of how that would be applied uh the commercial use with the outdoor dining area defined sort of Center Middle you can see some surrounding properties and they're identified as either commercial use or residential use where you share a common property line with residential use you can see then there would be a requirement for an 8ft fence and that doesn't necessarily need to be a fence it can be a wall a fence or it can be solid Shrubbery uh there is no opaque requirement with that so it should be it would be a requirement for that to be solid we also uh included uh as a reference the nuisance Provisions they were discussed briefly uh as part of the first ordinance uh though that is that chapter um chapter 34 Article 4 uh chronic nuisance that link is there so if we do have a chronic offender then we would follow we would be following that process uh we do again and we also obviously have in the both the existing and proposed ordinance the reference to the noise ordinance and that would be the controlling factor from an perspective we this is this last Bol is really the the bullet that and and I can say for most of these all of these changes that I've discussed to this point there's really been a lot of consensus building and development around those with the with the assistance of the BRC where there's still a little bit of um consternation if you will is on this last Point um where uh the vacating the property Provisions uh I think it's been discussed so in the the current ordinance Sunday through Thursday if you own a business regardless of your hours of operation that that outdoor dining area has to be vacated by 11:00 on Fridays and Saturdays it has to be vacated by 12 this proposal removes that that vacation provision and it um falls again back to the noise ordinance and to the nuisance provision some just some additional data on applicability if you will um there from an implementation standpoint we are recommending as part of this uh prop uh proposal that there's a three-year grace period to comply with these Provisions um the the the bottom graphic if you will was just intended to kind of show the commission where these could potentially outdoor dining areas could potentially be had and in what zoning categories so you'll see nine categories outside the CRA where these uh properties where these where this type of use could be permissible and and and I say permissible uh the outdoor dining area is remains incidental and subordinate to the primary use so if you look on the left of this slide you'll see the four kind of categories where this use would be incidental so the the property would first be have having to either be a bar or Tavern a craft micro brew liner Distillery or a restaurant so and that's the only time then that you could have if you're conduct one of those uses as the primary then outdoor dining can be requested as an incidental and subordinate use there are nine properties nine Cate zoning categories outside the CRA where 584 Parcels of the 1386 Parcels in the city of denan could potentially take advantage of this and when I say potentially I mean that the likelihood of all of those properties becoming either a bar or Distillery or or what have you is is not feasible so it's it's you're really talking about a worst case I'm painting a worst case scenario for you here uh this the two categories inside the CRA are are downtown core a streets and down downtown core c streets that total is about 202 so the maximum number of parcels that could take advantage of this particular opportunity pending the primary use is about 786 Parcels Citywide which constitutes about 5.67% of the total Parcels in the city um a note on pass written approvals um we are suggesting as part of this that any property currently occupied by or proposing outdoor Hospitality shall comply with these regulations on or prior to September 1 2027 with the following exceptions and that that 20 uh September 1 2027 is that three-year period that I mentioned and the following exceptions would be one that any current outdoor Hospitality area that has received conditional use approval shall continue pursuant to the conditions of that approval uh number two that any current outdoor Hospitality area that has received written City permissions may continue pursuant to those written approvals and three that any current outdoor Hospitality area that has properly applied for and received an outdoor dining permit may continue under those approvals provided the area and seating approvals authorized by that approval have not expanded and just so the commission is aware there are 25 permits that we have currently issued 16 of those are within the downtown uh finally um I will also mention that when we presented this to the uh LPA uh this past Monday on July 29th um there was a a BRC meeting that occurred prior just prior to that that meeting and there wasn't an opportunity to work in a couple of suggestions that came out of the BRC uh you can see those here um and I'll just work through them really quick but one is modify the fencing material to include wood as an option you can see where we have we have done that we also made that recommendation to the LPA uh the second was to tie a sound attenuation plan to um a property where they're AB budding or adjoining a another property as being used for residential purposes we shared both of these with the LPA and they did recommend they did recommend that these be included for your considerations and they recommend it positively to you um so so um with that um I will tell you that the the LPA did recommend uh on July 29th to uh uh to recommended approval to the city commission uh by a 4-1 vote um and with that I'm going to stop and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have okay thank you very much George uh I'm going to go for questions and I'm going to start on this side this time commissioner gal uh thank you mayor I really don't have a lot of questions other than who was the who was the one that came up with these recommendations and what what recommendation all the one here before and not on no I'm always on but I wouldn't and actually that's not true I'm not always on um these recommendations before it's tonight and was it a it was a collection from the BRC or was it from the city and the BRC I'm just trying to get an idea of what the input from the BRC had in this yeah I mean maybe Jennifer can George goe I'll add to anything George has made yeah I'm gonna say it was fairly significant I I think they truly helped shaped uh this product um you know a lot of the languag is existing and carried over uh so there's there's some places where there's no change at all um but those those points that I went over those differences between what exists and what we're proposing we're really shaped by that those discussions I I would add to that however that we actually did start this project with a consultant who looked at some of the best practices in other cities um Winter Park for example is a wonderful city with a lot of outdoor dining um and looked at some of the requirements that they had on the books uh and applied some of those here and then refined them through the BRC okay and we're fairly confident fairly confident that these noise remediation con steps and what we can do will be successful I think so and you know that was intended to be the tradeoff it's a little bit more of a business friendly approach and the idea was how can we still create that balance and keep and make sure that those impacts aren't affecting our residents so I think those those those features like the sound attenuation plan the additional fencing along the common property lines and and I I do want to I'm sorry I missed one point that fencing requirement there are some people that live on residential property that maybe don't want that so there is actually a waiver built into that where that if the the property owner and the the commercial the owner of the outdoor dining area decide that they don't want to they don't want that they can wave that mutually okay and what happens when that resident moves when that resident moves um or even the business changes hands and now it's a different type of business that the now the neighbor doesn't like or whatever so if the if the business changes and the outdoor dining area changes they would have to come in and and grab a new permit and then that process would start again if the if the business remains exactly the same they're not required necessarily to come in okay so a change of residency they know what they're getting into exactly moving next to the airport that's exactly exactly all thank you thank you mayor M commissioner walker uh thank you mayor uh the first question um the calculus for parking spots and bathrooms based on square footage of outdoor dining area um have those changed no sir so and and I I should mention it's it's a collective it's a collective look so we're not just looking at what the outdoor dining area is producing it is the site so and it goes back to the Florida building code and for occupancy um and the parking is you're looking at the site as a whole when it comes to parking so all those incentives in the downtown come into play parking Bank uh the the discounts for Transit the bicycle racks bicycle racks all of that remains in play but it's the the site is looked at collectively all all the all the stuff we talked about months ago yes okay um second question there's a slide I'd like to go back to I don't I didn't put the number down but it's the one that's the Matrix that one um can you walk me through that because I have no idea what this is telling us so the across the top are our zoning category so where you see TF that's tourist facility fxm is form based medium fxh is form based High NB is neighborhood business GB is General business DC you know is downtown core uh which is broken up by Street type there's three Street types A B and C um SC is shopping center um and CP is commercial Plaza uh Li is limited industrial and GI is General industrial so for somebody to qualify for an outdoor dining permit they have to have one of those they have to be using one of those four uses on the leftand side which are permitted in all of those districts so either bars taverns nightclubs Clos before 1: p.m. bars taverns nightclubs close after 10: p.m. craft micro Brewery Winery or Distillery or restaurant those are the uses that are articulated in each of those zoning categories so what this is showing you is a collective count of all those Parcels with that zoning category so across the bottom for TF you see 114 there's 114 total Parcels in the city that have TF zoning that would allow those four uses along with several other uses um and so same thing for each column and then you'll see a total count of 786 Parcels where this potentially could apply against the 13,860 parcels that currently exist in the city and that percentage breakdown is about 5 a half% and so if I may just add those are four of the permitted uses in those zoning districts but there are as many as 20 uses permitted other uses Banks shops retail that type of a thing so so essentially 5.67% um that represents a percentage of businesses in those four categories that can essentially fit in any of those zones that could those those cat any of those those categories permit those four those four uses on the left hand side for you to qualify for outdoor dining you have to you have to be one of those four uses okay oh yeah okay I got it okay thanks um and last question um before we uh this um removing the the vacate uh came under consideration uh can I get a sense of how how the vacate part of the or current ordinance how how was that enforced and what what do you just what do you what were the results of that so for us my staff is not is not around at 11 o' at night so we've never had we've we've never enforced that vacation provision through our office so if I may George go ahead mayor the the so the enforcement like the noise ordinance uh because it's after hours is within the the purview of the uh pel County Sheriff's Office the you know the the after 11:00 was first drafted into this code in 2011 because those areas were very small and they were on the RightWay and so it was easy to vacate a very small area that was adjacent to the street and the and you know the the in the intent was to quiet the street and that type of a thing and so now when we issue those 25 um uh outdoor dining permits there's that Proviso and the property owner signs it saying we understand that we have to vacate by 11:00 if there are people out in that area after 11:00 then the enforcement is a non it can't be anonymous tip um but proactively the sheriff's office would come to the establishment and issue a citation to the U the manager or the property owner they will not clear the vacated area that's not a look we want that's not something the sheriff needs to do but they will they will first of all give the warning and then um and then issue the citation oh yeah perfect thank you that's all I've got vice mayor sure um George let me start with this um uh reboot is on what in a a street or or C Street uh a street I believe which Broadway reboots B and then the rest is a I believe no B's are the ones don't permit it so they're either an A or C and then the rest of that street is a b right that's it and Scotland is not because it's actually outside the it's really just that one partiel vice mayor that's it and then the rest of them are beast so is is it the function of what it can be because it's part of Broadway versus Scotland that that that's the way it looks because you've got a streets then north of it okay is there anything in the ordinance um the new ordinance that speaks to what the reboot would need to do um to you know protect this the other side of the street against the sound is there any new things that they'd have to do so the two new pieces are the sound attenuation plan so that would probably be the major piece um and then the the fencing as I mentioned for 8ot but you're not going to have that probably in the front of the property so each it's hard to say without seeing the site details and what what they might be planning to do but you know we would probably look to do some fencing in some strategic areas to to make it make sense okay well I mean obviously we all know that's been a little bit of a lightning bolt area and you know it' be nice if we can figure something out there that that you know makes this thing come together um um let's see it's also accurate that some areas some businesses may have to pull back in contract some of their sitting areas because if they don't have the ability to live up to the working requirements and the bathroom requirements I think that's absolutely Fair Vice me I think that's kind of been lost a little bit that so you're going to get I I I feel like there's going to be some contraction here there's right part of and they'll have three years to do that and there'll be some tough decisions for the businesses as well right MH okay thank you um so I think this questions for Bob Bob I get this a lot you've commented on it can you please tell me why we're going to be in eore city is or is not a realistic fear bringing the big guns over here there you go as our Economic Development downtowns are so to speak Bob say economic development director yeah have been here 28 years it amazes me how time goes by obviously a lot of passion in the room I've given this a lot of thought obviously you know we always the goal was to have live work play for the downtown we wanted to be that balanced type environment we certainly accomplished it we we definitely have some Growing Pains this is not unique but I thought pretty carefully about that question you asked me I don't think and I know we're not an Entertainment District we have fund and entertainment but not just an Entertainment District and we're not going to become ebore for a couple reasons one we have a lot of small partials you got to remember typically a lot of stuff down the eore is a little bit larger assembly I don't see that the other thing is the location of where we are we're not in a met Metropolitan Hub we're not in a situation where you have a whole bunch of sports facilities uh with an influx of people then looking to go party obviously the Rays the lightning the Box the list goes on and on you also have cruise ships and stuff coming into uh the channel District then we'll go to ebore we don't have that kind of environment we're more of a day trip type place with the ability to enjoy at night in certain areas for entertainment I think we got a pretty good balanced environment so I just don't see us going toward that and it's funny this afternoon I met with the city manager and and George and I talked and I went ahead and called eore I called the the um C manager of eore guess what they're looking to their stuff is evolving more from the bars and Nightclub to more of a foodie and restaurant type environment they want to be more inclined to what we have so I think Market forces also dictate that we're kind of known for the restaurants for the retail for a place where everyone feels feel very comfortable to come and then if you want to stay in the evening and have some fun you can do that too so I just don't see that happening here uh in dun Eden I think you know when you're the CRA director you look at what are the threats or things that could happen to a downtown yes you don't want to be an Entertainment District I don't think we're going to be that you also look at online sales you look at Amazon you how can the retail boutique stores and stuff how how can they compete and that's why we're trying to look at you know getting it boutique hotel which is called a captured Market to serve the downtown I think we're firing all cylinders uh I think you certainly could have a situation but I think it' be isolated I don't see a situation where you have a sth Avenue which is which is eore if you've been down there I I don't see it here in dun Eden at all so I think we're in pretty I think we're in pretty good shape and I think what Jennifer and and George have put together is kind of a balance and you have the enforcement Provisions so if there is an isolated incident it can go ahead and be add rest but do I see some of these great establishments uh changing downtown no I don't and what have we had recently you have sea love a candle place that offers wine you didn't see that go into some type of uh bar or something along those line so and we have no vacancies downtown rents are high they're going to dominate and create Market forces too so I think we're in pretty good shape and uh you know my dad used to always say it's never as good as you think it is it's never as bad as you think and I think we're I think we're in pretty good shape so I'm pretty proud of the downtown and I appreciate everybody that's here on their passion I think we got a pretty good balance going and I think we just need to make sure that we ensure that I hope that answers your question it does and let me just kind of uh yeah sure ask you one um followup and I think part of your job as economic development director and you know again done so much to help get us to where we are at the downtown is to continually watch for what we're doing to incentivize or disincentivized you know and making sure we have the right balance of the restaurants the shops the bars and nothing overtakes yeah no I agree I did do that you know when I came on board in the city in 1995 that's how long I've been here uh the first thing we did is we didn't have any residential what we did we did the Monro Park Town Homes which you know city manager former John Lawrence lived in um that was our first goal we wanted to be a balanced type environment we want to be a place where people can walk feel comfortable get lunch get breakfast look at all the coffee shops we have which groceries remember groceries that the big grocer the big we brought Nature's Food Patch right so we do try to do that yes thank you Joe but yeah Joe cocak has really worked with us to do that but no I think we strive to do that and we're always looking for opportunities so I I think we're in pretty good shape I I don't think see things changing to go in that Entertainment District I think we can be a place to have fun I think it's also a good place to live it's also a good place to shop so pretty good but the other thing too is our demographic you know our our demographic is is a little bit older than that Tampa metropolitan area too which kind of dictates more and leans toward the Entertainment District we're a little bit different here we're away from the Metropolitan Hub we have an older demographic and we have small lots and we don't have all that influx as I said sports facilities cruise ships and all those things coming in so I think we're pretty good good thank you Bob you're that was that was worth the wait thank you um um you know a question came up um the other night about and I just thought we should answer it once and for all because I think you had an answer um it came up at LPA about the economic impact of the vacate issue um can you respond to that because I know it didn't get it didn't get answered the other night and I thought it should be no it didn't get answered and and so actually we have attach an economic impact statement which is required by the state but it's not required for Land Development text amendments and so um really the the the issue with the outdoor dining is that we're trying to bring them into Conformity and at this point this is not a right that's granted it is um these are non-conforming properties um all you know apart from the 25 that have been issued an outdoor dining permit and so the property owners then have to make their decisions as far as is how much you know they can contract or how much they want to expand how much they want to spend on expanding because they're going to have to pay into the parking bank and that type of a things so um if they don't wish to to have that outdoor dining then it's negligible that you would merely bring in your four or five tables or chairs however many there are if you do wish to to use that outdoor dining then there would be um there would be an impact and really the property can decide exactly how large that impact is this is not something that we're mandating people to do or businesses to do it's up to them whether or not they want to have the outdoor dining um so so as far as the economic impact goes and and and this the the the screenshot that you have right now is something that um as we have been discussing this ordinance with the City commissioners with the LPA members and that type of thing the questions come up time and time again how many people are going to be economically impacted by this and this is the closest that we can get to how many are could be impacted that 786 Parcels is absolutely the maximum that's if every single one of those Parcels decides to become a bar or restaurant so I'm saying that's going to be closer to 1 or 2% because you know as Bob had had said we've had several move businesses move into the downtown that have not gone to the to the bar restaurant I mean they their shops and that type of a thing so um that's a really long answer to your question regarding economic impact but it wasn't really addressed at the LPA um and so I would say in in one word it it it's up or one sentence it's really up to the property or how much of an impact that they want to withstand okay so um you know we all know this is not a perfect science if we did uh if we did if we do this I mean um would it be would it make sense after say a 2-year period and a three-year period to look at this and see hey have there been unintended consequences have there been problems do we need to adjust this ordinance to accommodate it would that make sense absolutely yeah okay I think it's a good idea okay okay I think that's all I have right now commissioner Tonga questions thank you mayor so I'll come back to the BRC again uh and ask the question on this particular subject we had two groups business and residents and how did each one of them react to this final conclusion are they both favorable or unfavorable or I I I you're nobody's getting everything that they want but everybody I think is kind of worked together through this whole year and a half to uh build consensus to a certain extent I think the one issue that's still is out there a little bit is the vacate Provisions um but I'm sure you'll hear from several of the task force members this evening I'll make a quick comment about the vacate provision the vacate provision is going to be in at 3:00 right so yeah that that's a good point commissioner so one of the things that doesn't get move from the existing language is the Tie to the primary business operation hours so if a business closes at 11: the way the current regulations read you have to close you close the outdoor dining area at 11 if the business closes at 9ine you close the outdoor dining area at 9 right and and also Jorge I'm s and but that's required in their liquor license as well when it's issued that the the hours of serving liquor correspond directly with the hours of operation and and that is still in the prop that is continues to exist in the proposed language so they would still have to vacate at closing time at closing time yes yes um public vacates so to speak um uh so number two um I I I believe the people that I've heard from are the the residents were not particularly satisfied with uh with us later time um but that's what that's my opinion and we'll hear from them I guess um what what what do you feel we will get from this in other words what's your what is your expectation for who might do this and and what what advantage is it is it to us it depends of course on where it occurs um if it all occurs in one particular area or someplace else but I guess what one would say we get additional revenue or we're serving people or what's the data what what is the data that supports doing this the city interest is as I kind of indicated at the beginning it's the health it's the safety it's the welfare it's really about it's really about regulating a subordinate use that if left unchecked might provide a situation where you don't have enough parking at a particular site where you don't have enough restaurants to serve your your residents at full capacity so from our perspective it is those life safety issues so why would you leave it unchecked uh there they have requirements currently and and why don't we we're not enforcing them is what you're saying currently so if George if I may so um one of the issues was as we were as we rolled out of of Co um and when we first convene the BRC we had lots of excuse me the downtown task force not even the BRC it was before the BRC there's lots of discussions about the issues between businesses and residents and why that was occurring and one of the issues was that a lot of those outdoor dining areas uh the businesses had expanded in the outdoor dining areas either as a result of covid and people not wanting to be inside not being able to be inside and the businesses trying to survive uh through Co once they were let out essentially it's became part of our life Style Gentleman had mentioned people come from other countries or other other you know cities and they want when they're here they want to be outside and not inside and so once once we had a good look around what you know the city and what was going on not only the downtown but the surrounding area it became very apparent then that we needed to draft an ordinance to uh address these outdoor dining areas and the most um and and kind of bring them into Conformity with parking and restrooms um and there are some other criteria after after our consultant had looked at what's going on around um around the state and so and that was really the impetus for this ordinance I I came to the city commission November of 2022 and I asked I asked you if if um I essentially well told you that we were going to not enforce that vacate uh part of the ordinance or issue notices of violation on the outdoor dining components until we could draft an ordinance to address it address it specifically I thought at that time it would take about 6 months it's taken way too long everybody agrees staff agrees you agree the residents agree but that's how long it took to get it through the BRC to listen to everybody's comments to to draft an ordinance that we thought was generally um acceptable and one of the things that I had I had uh stated several times I see lots of members of the BRC here what I wanted to put before the city commission was an ordinance that that we could say that that the BRC the three-legged stool the businesses the residents in the city was the best effort that we could put forward and I think that we have that the vacate to answer your question directly is still very very problematic for some of the residents on the BRC um they don't like it they they want to keep the vacate in but but that's kind of the Genesis of how we got here so someone we we just talked uh about the the CRA and uh so when I was on a CAC big concern was always the residents uh that were in the down in the 217 Acres that were here because we were broadening some of the activities here but we did want to protect the live the the workplace and uh live work and play here uh and so we were concerned about that and of course that it was designed and we always had two at least two residents that were on that were not business owners here specifically so that we knew they that they had their input and I think that's really important um I don't know I don't know what their input would be at this point in time because I haven't had the opportunity to ask them but it brings a brings another question um to me um and that is unintended consequence uh I don't know what they are um but we haven't asked either we certainly haven't asked some of the residents the the number the percentage of 5% that's that's a huge number but like we said we don't expect that to happen but I don't know where I don't know where all of these places are uh but I know that some of them are certainly for example on the causeway and we got people a lot of people that live on a c we have a lot of people live on a Causeway and I don't know what they know about this so I guess I guess really my question is is is about the unintended consequences um not only for us here in what we call the downtown area or whatever we're referring to that now as or the CRA let's just say the CRA um and what it might be outside of the CRA um I don't know if we've looked at that um and and what the potentiality of that is where are the most likely places that might or could do this and how might it affect uh the Lo the location and I and I think that's that's kind of scary to me for us making that decision without them having some input them meaning that the resident is having some input commissioner is there a is there a question yes so do we have any do we have any of that data and if we don't why don't we get it first or we can get some of it of course surve what what are you asking I don't think George understands what you're asking I I don't know what you're asking you don't know that I'm asking that we allow to get some input from the residents okay pretty simp we gotten input from residents so are you are you talking about outside the CRA or inside the out so uh we primarily worked in Insight yeah we primarily worked with the BRC um as representative of the residential community be careful be careful and I I can tell you that um the the changes between the existing ordinance and the proposed ordinance are relatively modest and relatively few would save the one provision that I think you'll hear some discussion on tonight but you're not a lot of the language that's in the proposed ordinance is the same language that currently exists that was just brought over so there are not a lot of lot a lot ton of changes the changes that are in there are really intended to protect the resident so it's the sound attenuation plan that's new the fencing that's new so they're really aimed at trying to find that balance that was discussed um but as far as if you're asking if we went out to the causeway and conducted a workshop or something like that no sir we didn't do anything so so you're saying that that there's really sort of no problem with the folks in the CRA but there is one major issue big issue and that's the time the vacate time yeah I think you'll hear some of that tonight yeah let's call a horse a horse here then um so um that's that is a concern that I have and it's also a concern that I have for the residents that are outside the CRA that that really aren't going through any of this now um I'm not I'm not picking on the the the material that was developed to to resolve some of the the issues that we have I'm just picking on the fact that I'm not sure that we have enough input from the residents to make a change like this in fact I'm sort of not comfortable with it again I don't have enough data I don't have enough so commissioner is there something you want to ask George for to provide you for second reading no not for second reading that's for me that's I'm make I'm just making a point that we don't have that no I understand but I mean getting into final comments and I'm just trying to get through questions cuz we have a lot of people that want to speak I'm truly not trying to be disrespectful but that's that's what's happening here if there's questions that you want to ask George or clarifications or information that that you would like to have at the final reading please ask for it I I think I did thank you okay I've got a couple questions myself um so George the um 2,000 square ft number that was arrived at um so anything from 2000 or more Square F feet has to go through development review can you describe what development review is for sure thanks mayor um so before I get to that just a little bit of background we kind of started it so no you're right let's start with development so just just I just want to understand the exact process somebody's got to go through with more than 2,000 foot desire review is a um full what I call like a full review process so there are basically four steps uh you start with um a recommendation from the Architectural Review Committee who recommends to the local planning agency who recommends to the city commission for two reads so Architectural Review is a public meeting so four public meetings publics what about architectural design what about um engineering and all of those things they've got to go through engineering there's initial there's an initial staff review that includes all of the department so sustainability engineering is your mic on yes I think people can't hear you um yes so you're correct mayor so the the DRC is the staff internal meeting that precedes all all of those public meetings and that is a collective uh group of each department how long does it normally take to go through that it's a 3 to six month process normally okay and that process doesn't that normally happen when you're building a condo or something like that it's typically designed at a large housing project or commercial project so a condo project let's say you know could be 10 town homes or it could be 100 condos whatever has to go through that rigorous public scrutiny process for because it's going to last what probably 75 years yep okay and we want to ask ask a business owner to go through that for outdoor space of 2,000 square ft that the average business we want it to all be longer but the average business might might stay open 10 to 20 years and in zoning that allows it that you've just described that's what you want us to do so the rationale mayor behind it was we actually started at six so the trigger the threshold for design review for a commercial operation is 6,000 square feet and that's where we started okay so we started there um when we looked at the people load of a 6,000 sqt space it was such that it it wasn't something that we would be comfortable approving administratively so through that discussion with the BRC we landed at a number 2,000 square ft which would load absent any furniture or anything in the space 133 persons we from our perspective we were comfortable with handling something 133 or less people administratively that was kind of the target where we said if we get beyond that it really needs a more a larger and I get it you want something a little bit more I don't know the right word you want something a little bit more Discerning but to put a business through a process that is the same you would put for a 75y year lasting monstrosity and you're talking about 2,000 square foot which is essentially the back of blur and going through four public hearings and all the costs that go along with that so I get my question to you Jennifer is before second reading can you all discuss this and determine if there is another way I understand wanting to have some scrutiny I'm not I'm saying the level of scrutiny for what we're talking about the back a blur I'm using that as an example because that's probably 2,000 sare ft would get that kind of cost for public hearings and six months just for an approval before they can even build it I I just think that is way Overkill so so subject to consensus direction we can certainly do that I don't think that that would impact the title of the ordinance um we would need to in that case uh figure out an alternative process and incorporate it within the or ordinance prior to Second reading so let me ask this question anybody that has two 2,000 square ft now if they have an outdoor dining or outdoor dining permit outdoor space permit what happens if this gets approved as it is does do they have to go through this now DRC process so if there is a business that is already operating at more than 2,000 ft they come in for the permit and we do that review and we find that that bit that ,000 ft or more supported by the bathrooms and restaurants then yes we would say that okay at this point you need to since it's a larger public space you need to work through that process so somebody that's already been doing this for 10 years has to now go through development review no so so a little bit on the legal non-conformities if there if prior to 2011 permit or no permit uh they were existing and operating as part of our review we go back and we look at that and we see what was in place prior to 2011 if that operation was in place it's legal non-conforming it's grandfather we can't touch it we can't we're not even going to ask yeah I'm not talking about that I'm talking about 2011 is a long time ago I'm talking about somebody that's been operating for 5 or 10 years that has an outdoor dining permit today so the outdoor dining permits today are capped at 500 square ft except we all know many people have that permit and have expanded their space that's an legal expansion I gotcha so but they've been operating and we've held off on enforcement CU we've been trying to fix this how many people do we have that are going to have to go through this DRC review we won't know until people start coming in but my my in the downtown I suspect not very many because of the parking limitations because of the bathroom limitation I think it will it's it's I we I don't know we you know we we'll come back and we can revisit that okay I get it you can't say I've been asking that same question for about 3 weeks now nobody can tell me but I I look to my colleagues because I think to put again I'm only using this I I don't know space um I'm not a good spatial person so I keep picking on blur because I know that space the back of it Noone ask why you know oh Wednesday evenings um but I know the space so I you know to look at that space and to say that that has to go through the same rigorous process I just want you all to think about that mayor can I ask a question on that yeah if they have to go through that process and they're already in operation while they're going through that process do they need to stop operating in that manner no I don't know so they're continuing to go through that process so I I certainly understand and agree on your thought process but if they're able to continue in their business or continuing to generate Revenue What What In This sincere question is well one of the penalties they're not going to make changes they're just making to come into complain cents well and I I don't know the answers to the questions and I don't want to get too far on comments but I'm trying to have a dialogue with my colleagues because I'm very concerned about it I'm not saying it shouldn't have more public or more scrutiny by our team I'm not saying that what I'm trying to get at is do it just it feels punitive very punitive um and almost to the fact that it might nobody would ever do that because here's the other thing all right I'm going down the RO of comments I don't want to be that person that gives poor commissioner Tor a grief over it and then I'm doing it um I do think it's something we have to consider uh and I'll save the rest of that for let me just see if I have any other questions um okay I think I'm good on my questions if I if I have more I'll throw it out there later all right let's get to public comment it is 9:05 um all right first up Katie dharm she is speaking for a group and she has 10 [Applause] minutes hi there hi good evening welcome all right um my name is Katie jarm pisi I am uh I reside at 6:30 Athens Street um and I am a business owner in deden I'm also the chair of the Chamber of Commerce and own two homes in deden by the stadium 630 7 Bel trees and 6:30 Athens I've been a homeowner in denen since 2006 uh I strongly support the removing the word vacate from our current ordinance businesses open past 11:00 p.m. should be allowed to utilize their entire premises including their outdoor space until they close our existing noise ordinance enforced by local sheriff's office already ensures noise levels remain in a reasonable um a reasonable rate past 11:00 p.m. currently our downtown control officer our sh the CPO shift ends at 11:00 p.m. to address this and balance both the business and residents needs the city should extend like Jennifer spoke about uh the sheriff's Patrol uh CPO until 3:00 a.m. when the last bar closes I'm not advocating for loud music on outdoor patios past 11: p.m. just for patrons to be able to step outside for a quiet conversation to be with their dog or to smoke interestingly if business business owners cover their patios the vacate the patio ordinance wouldn't apply they wouldn't they would be able to use that space until their business closes however some Property Owners may be prohibited to cover their patios um due to their landlords or their businesses just can't afford to install a cover thus unfairly penalizing these establishments imagine if we had to be forced inside our homes at 11: p.m. and couldn't go outside that wouldn't be right our homes are regulated by noise ordinances and businesses should be as well not by an unfair vacate rule please allow these businesses to operate fully during their normal business hours and extend the sheriff's Patrol until 3:00 a.m. to address any noise concerns the next um thing that I'm going to read uh as the chair of the chamber we do have members that I'm here to represent today I'm representing um Helen Courtney um and she is the owner of reboot uh before I start reading her letter um I just wanted to address John tga's um comments about hearing residents and hearing from uh the residents so uh George put out a petition on change.org and he's had 4,000 and 63 signatures so he's had 4,000 over 4,000 people and residents within this community supporting this vacate rule so the residents have been um putting their voices out there and I think I just wanted you to be aware of that I don't know if you knew that um but I think that's an important Point that he's had um over 4,000 people signed that in support of this so um I'm going to re be reading this on behalf of Helen uh the owner of um reboot my parents moved to deden 35 years ago my husband George and I have rented and own homes in deden since 2007 and we currently live in the downtown core we've watched this community grow o over the years and have supported almost every Shop restaurant and charitable organization that we can wherever our travels take us we continue to feel at home and enjoy everything the City offers we decided to invest our life savings in becoming a bigger part of this community we chose to open a business we are passionate about and something we felt residents from all over Tampa Bay would enjoy we carefully planned and hoped our unique concept at reboot would appeal to all of the people of all the ages and thankfully it does like our fellow business owners we have had our challenges over the last few years trying to keep our businesses afloat and have faced another one in recent months reboot has a lively indoor space but George and I have always felt that it was important to have a comfortable outdoor space a sanctuary from the stimulating Vibe inside since 2018 our guests have been enjoying our patio where you'll find chill music a large beautiful oak tree and French chatting in 6 years that we've been open we've never received a citation for noise or occupancy in regarding to our small patio however a select few residents continuing to try to change the way businesses have been operating for over the years have now targeted our business in an effort to engage with more of the residents and business owners we felt it was important to share this experience and make locals aware that our city is now enforcing an 11:00 p.m. vacate rule because number one they don't have an awning on the side of their building and number two they have an outdoor time outdoor dining permit since our neighborhood bars and restaurants were open during later hours we did not think we were breaking any ordinances this is confusing for everyone and seem to be a shock to our community the overwhelming response from locals is clear the majority of Duneden residents business owners Hospitality workers and visitors do not want to be regulated to a curfew and be told that an outdoor space on their own property or business establishment that they've enjoyed for years already or be told to vacate an outdoor space on their own property or business establishment that they've enjoyed for years businesses not only choose to use their outdoor space in later hours there is a need for those those residents and Hospitality workers not everyone has a 9-to-5 job and those people deserve the freedom to be outside as well we operate a business downtown but more importantly we've been residents of Duneden for almost 20 years and we decided to move our family downtown we are fully aware of understanding that we've moved one block from Main Street in a downtown core zoned property we chose to be closer to the active streets and shops and you'll find comforting sounds of people socializing and enjoying themselves we chose Duneden because it was safe inclusive to all people and has the potential for future growth we encourage our our city officials to please remove the vacate terms in the outdoor dining ordinance a noise ordinance is in place to protect us and other downtown core residents from excessive noise over 65 DB which is very favorable for residents like myself and my family thank you Helen thank you thank you kitty okay uh bill welen right Bill won 656 Broadway so when I started the uh Scotland Street neighbors group and I'll just make it brief I think our only concern is the expanding Entertainment District as it comes up against a neighborhood like ours and so I think one of the solutions that's never been mentioned is we kind of have this this uniform policy and maybe if there could be a graduated policy that starts maybe in the center of town and as it starts to go up against neighborhoods maybe it gets a little more restrictive and that's it that's honestly that's we just want peace and quiet in our neighborhood and that's it and a seaweed scale after 11:00 p.m. thank you thank you Bill John G and he gets 10 minutes John DDA 1969 dunlo Circle um I'm starting by uh the following words are my speaking on behalf of George Courtney the other owner of reboot Duneden my apologies for not attending my wife and I are on a much needed vacation to sooe our souls I'd like to thank the city management for their long and tiresome work in regards to this I can't imagine it's easy to sift through this issue when there are so many passionate opinions on both sides of the outdoor dining sound ordinances oh and sound ordinances what I hope we can all agree on is that integrity and honesty should stand at the Forefront of what we are trying to achieve anything less than that is disingenuous and best perous at worst especially when under oath while vacationing 600 mil away I laid with witness to sworn testimony falsifying proximity in which a neighbor claimed cornhole was being played 4T from their window when they live across the street over 50 ft away this very person has led a task force to misinform local residents about what is actually being voted on and attempting to persuade our city council in their favor with dishonest information how can this be allowed what else have they claimed that was dishonest in in our recent travels we visited St Augustine Savannah Georgia Charleston South Carolina Greenville South Carolina Asheville North Carolina Charlotte North Carolina and Amelia Island these beautiful cities have very similar historic preservation and downtown businesses adjacent to Residents and not one of the people I spoke to were aware of an outside vacate rule that existed in their city but they do have intriguing ideas like like legal open container and self-distribution dunan is yet again on the map for the wrong reasons perhaps you remember the paid parking debacle and being on National Television for outrageous fines and leans on homes it's unfair to our City unfair to our residents and absolutely unfair to businesses that wish to legally operate on private property within the confines of the laws that are already present and restricting such as the current Sound Ordinance uh we absolutely believe in working with our neighbors in fact our establishment discontinued cornhole after 11:00 p.m. for all patrons to satisfy their demands we put up signs asking for patrons to respect their surrounding area closed off the Scotland side entrance on busier nights and even gave our neighbors our personal phone numbers so they can reach us when my wife and I opened reboot we stood on the shoulders of Giants that created a beautiful foundation in which we were able to thrive it cannot be stated strongly enough that our very success is due in no small part to the wonderful people of dun Eden and the establishments that preceded us some by decades Paving the path ahead and collectively creating one of the most desirable cities in the country make no mistake if we allow our downtown to suffer economically by restricting our freedoms there will be consequen is beyond repair our town comprises of small Mom and Pops not billion dooll corporations that can endlessly absorb costs or afford to shut down early since covid our rent cost of goods taxes electricity water insurance and payroll have increased exponentially we simply can't afford to have needless restrictions placed upon ourselves especially when we already have to comply with a fairly restrictive Sound Ordinance I trust that our city council will make the right decision remove the vacate verbiage from the outside dining ordinance and allow us all to get back to work making Duneden one of the best towns in our great country that's from George um my name is John Didier I'm a current resident of and product of dun Eden Florida I've grown up here and lived in dun Eden since 1993 uh I've attended dunen monori I'm am I am and have been an active member here in the Duneden Comm Community serving as a youth member of the Parks and Recreation advisory committee I've attended and worked at hammock day camp for 17 years I'm a previous full-time employee of the city of Duneden parks and recck Department I've taught classes at the Duneden Fine Art Center I've mced multiple Marty gr and Christmas parades for Duneden TV I've recently mced the Duneden Celtic Festival I'm a previous employee of Duneden Brewery contributing to their marketing and graphic design assisting in the booking of n touring acts to perform in our community and I'm the founder and current perpetuator of a completely improvised freestyle hipop night that has been operating in downtown Duneden soliciting diversity on a weekly basis for approximately 12 years I'm a property owner here in Duneden uh and have specifically chosen to purchase in this wonderful City due to its thriving nightlife I support the removal of the vacate by 11:00 p.m. verbage from the outdoor dining ordinance uh restricting patrons to vacate these outdoor business patios by 11:00 p.m. is a in essence a forced curfew uh it has both personal and far-reaching implications negatively affecting my business as a local musician negatively negatively affecting the desirability of visiting and participating in downtown and in turn negatively affecting the local economy hopefully this is glaringly obvious a huge huge portion of downtown dun Eden's appeal is made possible by Hospitality workers many of whom now only work here because they have been priced out of the city whose vibrancy and current stature they have previously helped shape for years not only does this mandatory vacate directly affect business and thus their bottom line it also denies them their freedoms to enjoy downtown after their shift at their Leisure during late night hours I know that I'm going to get a little conspiratorial pretty quick but uh let's take a quick step to go more extreme and consider what might be the long-term ulterior motives of those persons wanting a quiet downtown after 11:00 p.m. gradually the downtown Duneden we have all grown to know and love slowly loses its vibrant image at the expense of declining property values or simply businesses that can no longer survive under these circumstances properties which are now able to be bought up by cunning Developers for self-interest profit seeking to impose their own influence and agenda I can confidently say that the current downtown Duneden looks like a glorious shangra law just opposed to exhibit a the tragedy that has befallen downtown Clearwater this current standing verbiage is laterally weaponized to benefit a number of parties opposed to the current Sound Ordinance if the problem at hand is regarding the sound emanating from these outdoor patios in the Zone Downtown CRA specifically I would like to express my thoughts to those in opposition I do get woken up regularly by yard work and construction I recognize that that's just a fact of life and utterly ridiculous for me to be lobbying to negatively affect the lives and tangential businesses of those folks operating within their legal acceptable bounds unfortunately the reality is it's my responsibility to navigate how to cope based off my job and my chosen lifestyle analogous to renting or owning property in or next to a growing and evolving downtown Hub defined as the main business section of a city it is the risk you take in such a district and it is your responsibility I believe to anticipate and manage your expectations for how your proximal surroundings evolve outside of your control thank you guys so much for hearing me out appreciate you uh uh remember no clapping till the end please okay uh Melissa McCormick she may not no welcome Melissa thank you um first I would like to respectfully request that I have longer to speak excuse me I requested to be able to speak for four people that I have their emails on but I was told I was not allowed to do that because they were not here but we just just allowed two people to speak for two other people who are not here well they had signatures on their cards well that's that's that's the regulation on here they've had I was they have this their signatures and their addresses on the back of the C where do you get those cards we've had people we had people standing right out there I did tonight can you speak to that our city clerk we had people standing out there I did and I filled up my card were George and Helen here tonight sign that card George and Helen are not on this card she just said she spoke for Helen and he just she did did but she they they weren't the people to sign the people to sign for Katie were Ellen hail Sean Newton Shane Warth and Bill I'm not going to argue about it never mind it's typical they're all here fine I'm good okay all right um I'll tell you right now I almost didn't come tonight I um my name is excuse me Melissa McCormick I was born and raised here and have lived in my home for 20 years I have been thoroughly trashed for just wanting to be able to sleep at night in my home I'm opposed to the removal of the vacate requirement the current ordinance has supported a thriving successful downtown since it was written um without compromising the peace overnight so why do we suddenly need to extend the hours or the downtown's going to die I don't understand that in my opinion and I'm clearly telling you this is my opinion it's a way to correct an imbalance that has been created that some of the businesses have mentioned because we allow businesses that are under a roof to not be considered outdoor and it does penalize the people that don't have a roof the residents should not have to bear the brunt of that um the vacate provision was important enough to the city sitting commission when the um ordinance was passed that they added it from the day to protect the citizens to to have a quiet overnight I know Julie was a part of those notes that I have read I'm disappointed that there was no attempt to get a compromise their residents to the questions that I've asked before were opposed to V taking the vacate out at every BRC discussion that there was I've been to several of the meetings and I've reviewed all of the minutes um there was no attempt to compromise maybe eating out the outdoor activities till midnight or maybe till 1:00 on the weekends graduated scale so that if you border a residential area there are some graduated requirements for what you have to do proactive enforcement by code enforcement the other night many people most of them for the deleting the pro the vacate strongly advocated pelis County standards that's great that's 72 during the day and it's 55 at night I would be happy with that I would give them the 72 during the day and do the 55 at night um to be clear it's not about outdoor dining it's about outdoor drinking and to expect that drinking people six or eight of them will be quiet outside and I have to call to get it inforce is unreasonable and even mofy had told us before the city ends their events at 11:00 because of the outdoor activity after that time I don't know why the citizens deserve any less so I urge you to represents the citizens that have elected you thank you Melissa Devin KS hi everybody I'm Devin kraps I uh live at 412 Bel trees resident of Duneden and I'm also a business owner uh I wrote a lot of notes but I feel like this night has gone pretty long so far and a lot of people have already made a lot of the points that I have um I want to say that I would like to remove the vacate from language from this ordinance as well um and to the point of you know talking about graduating you know um uh the points that were made about the closer you are to residential the more restrictive it should be I think that you know I understand that but also at the same time I mean for my business's perspective you know we opened in 2012 I had uh basically nobody living next to us and then somebody moved in and they were really excited about oh great I'm next to a brewery I'm going to come over here all the time it was wonderful and then a couple years later they had kids and they were like we don't like the noise and we're talking about I had no Amplified music no Amplified nothing just a few people outside talking and they called the cops constantly and so anyways I'm just saying that it kind of it goes both ways but I know you guys know that and you've heard a lot of that tonight um so I just want to say from Seven Sons perspective and Devin creps as a resident of dun Eden's perspective I hope that you remove the vacate because this night life is a big part of what we enjoy in this town and I just hope that we can all find a compromise somehow thanks thank you Devin nol McCormack good evening I'm n McCormack 247 Scotland Street um yeah my home as we've just heard is directly across the street from a late night venue uh and I'd like to express my concern with the proposal to permit outdoor drinking and entertainment until 3:00 a.m. 7 days a week over the past 40 years I've enjoyed experiencing Den Eden's Evolution into a Vibrant Community uh an evolution made possible through thoughtful regulation balancing the needs of all stakeholders these ordinances ordinances have contributed significantly to the town's charm and appeal making it a model for other small towns Nationwide I have reviewed the city's comprehensive plan and commend the dedication reflected in that document particularly it's focus on mixed land use this approach promotes the integration of residential commercial and recreational spaces and fosters a dynamic but comfortable Urban environment however the current proposal to extend outdoor activities into the overnight hours seems to abandon this well-considered balance emphasizing entertainment at the likely expense of residential peace our City's strive for 2035 plan envisions a so-called Lively downtown which we're very fortunate to already enjoy but the plan does not appear to support the extension of outdoor nightlife until 3:00 a.m. which might well compromise the town's character and the residents wellbeing my neighbors both to the East and the West provide affordable housing to Donan citizens with their tenants enjoying a wonderful opportunity to live work play and sleep in the heart of Florida's finest small town my own home is a historically relevant structure built in 1905 by dun Eden's very first mayor the intimate mix of historic single family homes well-maintained and affordable rental apartments nearby shops restaurants and bars makes dun Eden special encouraging overnight outdoor drinking and entertainment so near to such long-standing residential communities risks disturbing our cherished peace and undermining our comprehensive plans commitment to preserve the city's Heritage and promote the health and well-being of its citizens therefore I respectfully urge you to reject or significant ly alter the proposed ordinance changes and to largely maintain the current regulations which have proven wonderfully effective in nurturing a lively yet considerate downtown environment our vision of a sustainable mixed use Community demands it let us continue to be a town that celebrates and respects its unique Heritage and contemporary vibrancy the jewel of Florida's west coast thank you I appreciate it thank you very much Pat Miles good evening 944 Michelle Circle I'm not going to tell you who I am because you all know who I am but I do want to say one thing to Jennifer is that the sounds of music and laughter is the sound of a cash register to me the reason our military has not changed is because of our tax base Jennifer always reminds me of that oops speaking to the microphone okay no somebody had turned it off or I had turned it off unintended consequences you me someone mentioned think about a musician that ends his gig or her gig at the 1059 which is staying in the music Sound Ordinance now they have to wrap up their cords but of course first a couple people come up congratulate them for a good night want to give them a tip want to buy some of their merch now they've used up 15 or 20 minutes now they got to go find their car go find a parking spot that's close enough to The Venue so they can now sleap all their equipment in there it's going to take 20 minutes to find their car and then they have 20 minutes to load it okay now they're done they've got to be off the premises no time to finish that drink no time to eat that snack that someone had been so kind to purchase for them unintended consequences but I do also want to say that our music our live music in our town is what makes our town vibrant it also our weather out allows for outdoor activities and our evenings is is one of the best assets music and the ability to be outside is a positive in the area we need to allow businesses to do their business we have a majority of residents and visitors that are repeat Spenders spending all their money in all our businesses for the live music tipping the musicians for their live music in my opinion the majority should should have AER vote several weeks ago I brought a 100 people to this town and all they talked about is how walkable it was how wonderful it was how safe they felt and I want to make sure that I didn't have to tell them that you all have to be back inside before midnight or you're going to turn into pumpkins or something thank you for your time music makes the town Go Round And if you want to look for Fun find go tonight.com thank you Pat Uh Barbara tuig good evening good evening uh Barbara TR big 1210 Royal Oak Drive dun Eden um my family moved here in 1968 I wrote every one of you on the commission and mayor um I have a very long time in dun Eden I've was a counselor at the community center graduated from D high school went to San Jose my three boys grew up here I don't understand actually what all this is all about I hear what a great town dun Eden is I know it's a great town I love this place why do we need to change I know there's change goes on all the time but we just had a survey 2024 survey development and City Planning common concerns include too much focus on attracting tourists at the expense of residents quality of life set in our survey um I'm against the VAC removing the vacate I believe we need to respect our residents um many of the businesses downtown I admire the owners and I appreciate the respect they show with the residents um there are a few that aren't so nice and it's a Pity um I just wish we could all get along and comp come to a compromise and do what's best for our city and not what's best for the businesses and not what's best for the citizens but let's compromise and be delightful D Eon that's all I have to say thank you Peter dakos Peter somebody in the building named Peter okay Jason my name is Jason cyber I live at 1756 Ranchwood Drive South in denan Florida um I've been a business owner in downtown for about over a decade I've own several businesses downtown I own Flanigan's Irish Pub I own Rosy's Tavern and I own the uh big St Patty's Day celebration I'm blindsided today because I'm hearing all these things and I'm wondering if Rosies is going to be affected the city has for a long time had a Comm Comm unication problem we find out things way after they're supposed to be we should know about these things if there's going to be something that affects my business I want to know I bought the business a little over a year ago spent a great deal of money on it based on projections of what that business was going to do over time I wrote the biggest check in my life that day and I'm a little pissed off today um I don't want to have to pay into the parking space extortion fund it's ridiculous I don't understand even what that is if we give you money that doesn't make parking better it's the city's responsibility to build parking it's your responsibility here to figure out why and I know it's a tough job but it's what you signed up for if this happens and I have to close down my patio or lessen my patio it's going to reduce staff now we talk about creating jobs this is going to take the most vulnerable people in our community the people that leave that that make the less and many of who can't even afford to live in denan anymore because have they've been priced out it's going to reduce their jobs and their single parents and they work for me and they're my family and I love them and it pisses me off I don't want to stifle growth I want to see more growth and there are options that can help both the residents and the businesses Melissa was up here I've known Melissa for over 10 years we sat on many boards together I love her she's my good friend and I know there are other people here on the opposite side of this that are ah we're pissed off I love everybody here I want to see denan come together you guys have seen me at really tough times when you said at Co we're going to shut down St Patty's Day I came up here and I said you know what I support the commission I came up here and I said you know what it's a tough job you guys got to do and it's going to cost me six figures but it's okay because I think you guys are doing the right thing today I don't feel like that's happening I feel like there's overregulation I feel like there's unreasonable expectation and I think there's an abuse of power that happens if a patio that has been existing for a long time is going to be reduced when there are no problems we're making problems where there aren't any problems and maybe I don't understand this honestly I don't understand this because this is this is what does this even mean like I understand that this may make a lot and respect to you sir I understand this may make a lot of of sense to you but nobody here knows what the hell that means or any of these slides we don't understand how it's going to affect our livelihood our family and other people and that's not your fault I get that but there needs to be better communication so we know what's going on um anyways that's all I really have to say thank you for listening thank you Jason Michael cman hello my name is Michael cman I live at 582 Baywood Drive North and I own 933 Huntley Avenue uh craft Distillery uh thanks for allowing people to speak tonight uh vacate uh I wasn't going to talk on that but then there were so many passion comments wanted to keep it that I have to speak on it the existing state laws for drinking establishment already covers this the word vacate means even the owner of the property myself can't sit on my own patio after that time is closed or I can't have people clean that patio I urge you to keep just with the the state laws for liquor establishments or you know alcohol establishments otherwise when do we make the other 13,000 properties up there mentioned have to get off of their back patio at at 11:00 p.m. I don't think that's fair while an Ohi or the previous uh outdoor dining might be needed for sidewalk cafes I don't think it's needed for private areas uh every BTR already has requirements that may be tweaked on an individual orderly manner based on addressing actual documented problems I ask you to ask the following question can each line of this stand on its own and show a real documented concern that it's addressing I urge you to remove the kitchen sink approach to the making of legisl now on to some of the small points that I came up while we were doing here is every property that needs the smallest update to their outdoor dining layout basically going to have their entire parking re-evaluated at all new requirements that seems really huge uh what's the concession for a business owner who wants a more relaxed seating area with tables spread out and people not jammed in like sardines the same 2,000 foot limit for both encourages the opposite the most butts in seats per square foot people have different things they want for their business doing it by square foot seems a little wrong uh this is a regulatory and financial burden for small family businesses but it's easily overcome by affluent developers and chain franchises that have teams of people that can jump through all these hoops will you cause the shuttering of longtime businesses that we all love that physically cannot not obtain new permits for bathroom and parking without demolishing and rebuilding their structures does residential use include non-homesteaded short-term rentals like Airbnb and vbo that are purely commercial Ventures separation of uses uh you know we talk about this uh the fence between uh two properties a business and a a residence well how about if that business is below a fancy apartment where's the the fence there's no fence uh and in regarding the action to the close of business that refer to the word shut down we need to make sure what that word shut down is Does it include vacate another one is an Ohi application considered a change of use thank you thank you Michael uh Rob wri good evening Rob Wright 1621 Paloma Lane I've lived in deden over 20 years I met my wife here we met at a place that was called the Martini Club it's now called Bowsers on our 20th wedding anniversary we renewed our vows there I couldn't imagine a more wonderful place to do it we didn't vacate at 11:00 we stayed our friends stayed we are residents we are who you're talking about my family grew up here my friends are here when I talk to the people that I work with in Tampa they ask where I live and I say daned their eyes light up they want to be here everyone that I know wants to be here and we're talking about something so trivial and I want to reach out to my neighbors at Scotland and say I am sorry that this is coming to you nobody wants anyone to lose sleep nobody wants anyone to feel unwelcome in their own community that being said this community isn't just Scotland it's all of us we keep saying it's all of us we keep saying that we need to ensure all of us are heard I appreciate that I want that I want more than anything else for everyone to get along but I also have a lot of friends who own businesses and they are strongly affected by this it doesn't mean that I want them to scream and yell at 11:00 p.m. to show that they've won over but I do want them to be able to go outside of their own establishment with me at times have a beer talk a little bit and get inside at a reasonable hour no one's out till 3:00 a.m. here I walk the streets I've walked home from Bowsers at 12:00 a.m. and no one's out nobody's screaming and yelling I don't hear anything this is the safest town I could possibly imagine I don't get the vitri all and again I want to reach out to my neighbors and say you are loved and I am sorry for anything that you're going through but to to force businesses to lose money it's Insanity to me and then you add on top of that if I ask you to go inside your house at 11:00 p.m. and not leave I would hope you would call me crazy cuz that's what I would feel like I appreciate everyone on this Council and I hope that you remove the word vacate thank you thank you John Robinson Jr good evening I'm John Robinson I live at 478 Glen Karen Circle and D um my wife an and I live in a community called The Cottages at Duneden 14 single family homes with 26 people located a short distance south of Main Street on Douglas Avenue we and all our neighbors love our downtown area for its history Beauty energy and charm clearly there are many others who share this feeling tonight however I'd like to specifically address the vacate issue and start by saying that downtown Duneden has become a victim of its own success the influx of of new and upgraded bars craft breweries and restaurants over the years has no doubt made the downtown a much larger attraction even Hollywood came to town but let's not forget this successful growth and expansion has prevailed under the current vacate rule which has been in place for the last 13 years I understand the challenges the restaurant and bar owners and their hardworking staffs have enforcing the current rules but while a few late night patrons want to have a beer or a smoke after vacate hours I guarantee you there are hundreds of residents who simply desire nothing more than a reasonable quiet time to go to sleep we heard tonight that the vacate language was originally written into the 2011 regulation to provide some balance between the conflicting interest of neighborhood residence and the bars and restaurants however the proposed ordinance completely disregards the interest of surrounding neighborhood residents of particular interest to those of us in Glen Karen is the unint unintended consequences this revised ordinance could have on the rezoned Douglas Avenue Corridor which will allow a any mix of retail commercial office hotel and entertainment establishments adjacent to existing residences including ours should the next Mega Brey or dance club become our nextdoor neighbor and operate nightly both in and Outdoors until 3:00 a.m. under the proposed ordinance you are considering the peace and Tranquility of our lovely Community now enjoys could be completely devastated the same could be true for others along the Douglas Corridor in closing despite the overwhelming enthusiasm in this room that opposes the current vacate rule I ask you to take on the difficult task of finding some reasonable Middle Ground to restore the balance in the conflicting interest between residents and affected businesses thank you very much thank you giselda did she leave I don't see her Gisela okay Graham Johnson good evening Graham Johnston 1560 coach light way done Eden this is my story I'm the owner of mangoes and Marley small Cafe located 506 Main Street and I've lived in North pelis for 33 years in fact I celebrated my 21st birthday at flanigans where Jason went which was literally decades ago my wife and I have always loved the diversity here uh not just the culture um but also the variety of things to do uh from Parks and marinas splash pads video game arcades shops ice cream great great restaurants live music Arts amazing breweries and night life it's all walkable there's literally always something for me uh and my family to do regardless of age or time of day we loved it so much we settled here with our small children we bought a house 9 years ago during Co the way this town wrapped its arms around each other was unlike anything I've experienced the entire town rallied we ordered food to go we ordered crowlers of beer um and anything we could do to prop up our our vibrant small business community and their employees uh even the city leadership and their initiative to help businesses open back up and operate during an insanely turbulent time was just incredible and just when 2020 couldn't get any worse on October 1st of that year um my wife was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer at the ripe age of 39 the next 6 months were awful but when she finished chemo radiation surgery and was well enough we knew it was time to uh chase our dream of opening a mom and pop type restaurant uh life is short and tomorrow's not guaranteed and uh chase that dream we did I'd never ever consider anywhere but downtown denen the city and our leadership couldn't have been more helpful in our Venture shout out to Bob Ian Smith uh and many others for holding our hand literally along the way and for continuing to support our business to this day this community our vibrant downtown and nightlife is what the CRA dreamed of uh and envision when they formed in 1988 maintain Small Town f Foster Economic Development enhance walkability expand new business and increase tourism Tina uh spoke on Monday about tumble weeds blowing through downtown when she opened casatina and there's no tumble weeds anywhere like we've nailed it it's worked the vision has worked we've got the best town in Florida and I'm so thankful to have my place in it to work against this growth would be a massive step backwards I can't see any possible way that's stifling business and enforcing was what is essentially a curfew whether drinking dining or just communing with our neighbors is helpful in any stretch of the imagination I'll go even further and say that my ability to close my business at night walk to another open business and take a load off and breathe fresh air as a core tenant of my personal mental health it's mandatory I'm asking to pass what's presented to you and that's vacate thank you thank you Chris bid it was good evening good evening my name is Chris bid 938 lden um my family's been a resident here for 40 years raised their daughters and they've witnessed the growth of the city and it's fantastic everyone spoken about how wonderful this place is it's correct it's awesome um it just seems like so many people want to go to the extremes of it's this or that this or that um well we have a curfew we can't be outside there's no one walking them down the street there's no officer saying oh we see you outside with a beard in your hand go back inside however and we just had testimony from another gentleman that said well we were outside and it nobody said go inside however if this has changed to where you can be outside till 3:00 a.m. think about the influx of other businesses that will create an outdoor space and it'll multiply tremendously and the families that live here that want to sleep at night are going to have to be forced to wake up walk out to their fence line with a decimal meter and take their phone out our pocket and film this deciel meter while they're listening to the audio around them of 20 people drinking an outdoor space at 1:00 police come they run their test okay they go to the business owner sir please quiet it down okay we'll do it quieten it down 30 minutes later a new cycle of individuals that weren't told to quieten down now have to be told again an hour later if it happens my family has to get up or someone else has to get up film it again call police and do you guys want to exercise that I mean you w have that much resources to deal with that because once it multiplies this will happen and I don't think that they're losing that much money from 12 to three from people that want to have a drink and bottom line this is about money and alcohol which I like to party with three I have no problem with it I like but I don't want to do at the expense of people who grew up in a community that was once calm and now has a thriving business which is beautiful but you don't need to keep going keep going more laes more lacks the businesses just got a great win tonight and good for them but how many wins do they need to get and how many residents have to be penalized for that and I did hear people say oh well we've had business for 20 years new people come in they should know better well my family's been here for 40 years these businesses came in after 2011 when this already existed and they sign their name to that business they knew the law then so the same goes back to you thank you thank you Callie I'm sorry don't even try y you're on Mary Jane Lane yes I am okay my name is kala Karu and I live on at 1095 Mary Jane Lane um I moved to Duneden seven years ago I came here from New Jersey um and when I started reading about this vacate thing and seeing both sides of it to quote Yogi Barett was deja vu all over again I'm from a town called belmare which is a few miles south of Asbury Park it is a beautiful jerseyshore town I grew up on the beaches and there were six bars along Ocean Avenue and as a kid I couldn't wait to be old enough to go in there and drink there and then got married and my late wife and I enjoyed those places in our 20s and 30s and then suddenly a group of people said these build businesses are a nuisance they're loud they'd been there since some the 30s 40s um they got the ear of um some people in the township and uh the township decided that the answer was to change the drink the closing time for the bars in belmare to midnight it used the rest of the county was 2:00 2 a.m. they closed it to midnight thinking that would be helpful now what really happened was and and and the devil is in the details of enforcement what happened there was the local police at 12:00 showed up at those bars if there was one person finishing their beer the bar was fine that individual was fine so now it wasn't a 12:00 closing the bars figured out it was an 11:30 closing and the people that worked there spent the last 20 minutes trying to her people out the end result of all of that is is the people on the committee um were removed by the town the drinking age went back to 2 a.m. but out of those six bars only one exists right now the rest of them were leveled and there are multi-million dollar houses where there were thriving family-owned businesses some that were multigenerational when you say vacate and I know um you haven't been enforcing it but there's nothing to stop the police force to say at 11:00 start sweeping people out of the front of these outdoor places so you have a noise ordinance live with that the vacate please get rid of that word I've seen it once and it destroyed the town or the character of the town thank you thank you okay Mary Mary aen a reed I can't aren it's getting past my on uh mine too I'm Mary Aon I live at 938 Lin Avenue I've been a resident of done Eden since 1984 so we have uh been here for a very long time and uh watched a lot of the changes um I've had two daughters that were raised in Duneden and went through uh High School College everything within uh our little area uh I'm going to be very quick cuz it's getting very very late and I'm not going to be saying that much more than everybody in front of me but I just wanted to go ahead and and let you know is there resident that I uh opposed the deletion of the uh word vacation uh in the new ordinance uh I was U one of the members or I participated in the BRC meeting uh in as a a resident um representative and was a one of the um excuse me one of the resident uh Representatives was asked during one of the meetings um if a extra hour on uh weekdays or weekends would make a difference in um the you know for uh vacating the uh outdoor area and the business Representatives overwhelmingly said they they opposed um um they would they did not want to go ahead and move that vacation uh off the uh agenda um one of the main areas that I really uh feel that we need to uh look into is the noise abatement that is very important uh it must be addressed uh anytime that you have a uh business um that has outdoor a uh outdoor uh seating uh the noise level can be EXT extremely high so if we could go ahead and definitely look at uh looks at noise abatement uh any way that we can uh uh continuation uh it would definitely help because uh it is very much uh a problem especially when you um have multiple restaurants that are coming into my area right now uh one of them will have open seating of up to 92 uh people that are going to be able to be outside and with everybody talking trying to go ahead and uh talk to one another over one another is going to be extremely um uh a nuisance uh so that's all I have to say because you know it's getting late and thank you very much thank you Kathy Carlson old school Kathy Carlson 561 Broadway I have not been sworn in I um was everybody's pretty much said what I want to say so I wasn't going to read this but my friend is a pit are nominated author and she told me it was great so I'm going to read it so just a quick history my guess who that was yeah I think you know my business partner Virgil Kelly and I opened in downtown Den in 1989 and all the tumble weed stories that you hear are true like every Monday we'd lock the door see if we had enough money to count to cover the bills Lily we had a friend at the bank that sometimes would let us go over anyhow the few businesses that were here was a transmission shop with air tools all day long and a Napa dealership and a train there was a train going down through downtown it was it was pretty dead so uh rent was cheap really cheap a lot of service people lived in town we' hang out at well it was it skips now it was genies and uh we formed a close Bond and we're still close all those people from back then um notes those were the days my friends I like to say as the years went by denan grew through the efforts of the city and our CRA designation and mostly through the efforts of this Core group of downtown businesses uh most of them are still here we all worked together played together when um Tina from castina was done with her crib she gave it to me my kids slept in it I gave it to somebody else uh we started events to get the word out because tumble weeds and uh and this we wanted people to see this great town I still want people to see it I still love showing it off uh and it worked we grew due to our successful and amateur urban planning uh we were able to build a place that we wanted to be in and along and along the way I had 70 employees at one time at Kelly's and chickaboom room and they got married and bought houses and raised kids a lot of them are still here um and in 2017 I sold Kelly's I was ready and today just had blur which is the best job I ever had and uh 20 people one of them my daughter and uh she bought a house in denan by the high school and won't be able to pay for it if we lose those hours in my business I make my money on Friday and Saturday night from 11: till 2:30 currently I'm allowed 550 people on my property and usually there's 100 outside and they're quiet the doors are closed there's no music out there if I had to shove them inside where there's already another three two or three hundred people they'd just have to leave and then we'd get to that thing um a quick side is we never and it's our fault for not reading paperwork we never knew that this vacate Clause was even there a lot of people in this town were very surprised by this CU we just kept people there till 3:00 in the morning um that's it we've done a lot of hard work let's not go backwards thank you thank you Kathy Lisa s Petro this is San Petro Ren 968 Emerson Drive okay I'm going to need to go fast because I have friends to go support tonight I do have one question um that I don't know the answer to I don't know what year the actual downtown core was put into place okay for this after the city spent so much of our tax money on tourism and beautification just so we have to tell those exact tourists we are trying to attract here that they're going to have to vacate the outdoor area in a state that everyone comes to be outside at 11:00 p.m. I don't understand that I I'm not understanding where why we spent that tax money there's no room inside these businesses at that point of the night which is a great problem for us all to have I know this is an extreme but if you strangle these businesses you won't have to worry about what the residents want because there won't be any left welcome back to 1988 and I know the majority of us in this room remember that and I'm going to guess that we'd rather not take 36 years worth of steps backwards what about the Next Generation to keep deden deden you think they're going to come to a sleepy quiet town or do you think that they're going to spend their money in vibrant places like Tampa St Pete and Beyond and I am speaking on my son's behalf on that I'd like to say I have a unique perspective on this topic but it's not I have the same as many that are this is going to affect I asked my mom after Monday's meeting August 16th 1988 that's when I moved here I stepped foot into skips in 1992 and then spent 25 plus years of working days nights and weekends at one of the main hotpots of downtown in big part due to because of the night vibrant nightlife that they provided us so that I could support my son as a single mom and then start my own business in dun Eden and purchase my first home ever with my now husband so yes unlike others that are in this room we are worried about our property value you know who supports my small little photography company people like Andy pulse Kathy Carlson George and Helen Courtney how can they support my business because my family supports their business I know this is a bit over the top and I don't know but I put my Blood Sweat and Tears and laughter into working to support this town just to be told that I now may now that I may not be able to enjoy what I've helped build the only negative for me personally is that I did not buy closer to downtown years ago when property values were lower and I live two blocks south of Main Street think about who you're impacting your business owners your family your friends that's who you're impacting 99% of this town not the 1% do I have a solution of course not but do I think strangling what keeps the city alive is the answer absolutely not I do believe that there has to be a middle ground but we also have to think about the future of this town not just the here and now or there won't be a future thank you thank you [Music] Lisa thank you Lisa Michael Lynn I think you left okay um Larry your [Laughter] turn Hello Larry Ren 968 Emerson Drive dun Eden uh I'm speaking on behalf of leaving the word vacate out of the verbiage the definition of the word vacate to give up possession or occupancy of to give up or relinquish to render inoperative deprive of validity to cause to be empty or unoccupied that just sounds sad give up deprive empty D Eden isn't sad we're happy we're fun to render inoperative if an establishment is operative until 2: a.m. the whole establishment should be operative until 2: a.m. not just the inside I've lived in dun Eden for over 30 years I would like to keep dun Eden fun and more importantly operative thank you thank you Larry Isaac Isaac waleski 2180 Santa Paula Drive I am a resident as well as the president of the downtown den and Merchants Association and I am for the removal the word vacate from the outdoor Hospitality ordinance I've been part of this process for 2 years starting with the downtown task force and then as a member of the business resident City committee the resulting ordinance in front of you is no one's wish list of wins as has been mentioned before we do have a noise ordinance that handles concerns about noise while this ordinance in front of you is to codify outdoor Hospitality something many of us and our visitors have come to expect which is being able to enjoy our great outdoor venues during a business's operating hours at the last LPA meeting Andy brought up a tangible example of the fair application of the word vacate and I would like to expand upon that here the argument for vacates inclusion appears to be that the sanctity of the noise ordinance is so great that it should limit a business's property rights by forcing them to vacate patrons at 11: p.m. if this is true then it holds that residents property rights should also be limited for the very same reason and that patios and lenai should also be vacated at 11:00 p.m. instead of trying to preemptively enforce compliance by assuming non-compliance is inevitable let's use what is already existing in the code to First educate and then punish if necessary this proposed ordinance also adds additional levels of protection for residents by directly linking a business's compliance with the noise ordinance and uh to that business's ability to use that outdoor space if use of that space matters to a business they will ensure compliance and if not then this ordinance provides for the removal of its use other additions include the sound attenuation plan that was not present in the current um Vari or form of the outdoor dining ordinance while some may believe that this ordinance does not go far enough to protect the interest of residents there are steep safeguards already included and what is left is handled elsewhere thank you very much thank you Isaac Kimberly Platt Kimberly plat owner of the property at 516 Grant Street and the home new restaurant I'm not going to say the V word vacate I am going to say the WW wood I don't know how that all happen the other day but it's super fun I guess um I want to give you guys a little piece of Education about um some of the businesses downtown that I'm not sure if you know I know I've talked to to a lot of different people about it through the BRC um but we are some of us are governed by the state on how many seats we can actually have in total so my liquor license only allows me to have a maximum of 150 seats and they will check it doesn't matter where they are if they're inside outside or on the roof I know I have people that want me to build up it will never happen I'm speaking to you guys it will never happen um we to the mayor's point we have done a lot of our um expansions at a great financial expense and we're getting ready to do another one um we've had the blessing from the state and city permitting and are in the process of continuing to do this um for our 150 seats we have the state and city requirements for bathrooms and required parking spots are already met so it doesn't matter with this it doesn't matter where I put my seats I can put them up front I was extremely restricted before extremely restricted before and if you've been outside front of honu at all which I know you guys practically lived right across the street from me for a while um we're now adding the um the beautiful Palapa so the wood fencing to this the W word is huge for us um it's a critical point for honu as as Lisa plat I have to quote her there's no white and Tiki okay that's how this all started so our current PVC fencing really makes the front of honu disjointed from the rest of our amazing experience we've created to bring visitors and residents from near and far to Dun Eden um I do get frustrated that people ask um and they say who are all these people that were on the BRC well you as the city and us as the businesses and the residents all put it out there it's not like we just said oh we're a little group that comes together it was put out there who wants to be on this group you have to pay attention if you want to be involved please please do that we want everybody's opinion we want to hear everybody's voices um I have a few shout outs Grant painter George thank you very much Jennifer um all of the BRC members including the residents we all work very very hard on this and I kind of started a little slogan as we are going through it and I want to um keep that and not just say that to the one person that I was saying it to every time we've come a long way baby MH thank you thank you Kim and my last card is Kevin Benjamin you guys came in order as I got them so all right you were the last I am wow not going to make a comment in uh Kevin Benjamin 200 Main Street uh I wanted to go up here I've been uh intimately involved with the BRC and I know there's been some questions about that so I thought it might be helpful to go through a little bit of the history for that so I volunteered and was selected uh for the downtown task force which was a very large group we had many great discussions as we started to get into more tactical issues it became clear a smaller working group would be better that is what led to the BRC we agreed a smaller working group that was originally going to be three residents three businesses and three representatives from the city so it was completely balanced Jennifer graciously said I would rather have more representation from businesses and from residents so I would rather see 44 and she would be the city representative so that's that's how it got created as it was um the downtown task force members that were residents and businesses as well basically from that pool selected who was going to be the core group and then there would be alternates who would step in uh to that group the resident group predominantly uh came uh from people in the downtown Corps because that's where the issues are most acute Okay we did make sure we invited a member uh to join us who was from outside the core because that individuals had some issues with businesses and had some good insight and good experience as well so we did have representation outside the core um I cannot speak on behalf of the others um but I do believe the group and or most of us in the group always took the perspective of the broader city as we looked at these issues whether that was the 580 the causeway Patricia Avenue all of these are going to grow as needan continues to grow and so the code we develop is going to have to apply effectively across the broader City again the issues are most acute in the downtown core um and if we have good code that works here it will probably help and work effectively in those areas as they grow we did discuss many Alternatives including as Mary said we did bring up ideas about changing hours um I hate to say it there wasn't consensus on it uh we also talked about non-code related Solutions as well to help mitigate noise and some of the concerns the group had and there was some good good discussion on some of that vacate was the point we couldn't overcome I'll be honest with you but I do want to really throw uh Kudos out to George and to Jennifer who took a lot of discussion a lot of different perspectives from this group and put it together to bring you really good code that we believe uh gives uh good ability to mitigate noise issues ahead gives business more flexibility to run their businesses but attenuate the noise that may impact their neighbors uh and support economic growth for the community ahead which is really important um so that's a little bit on the BRC I thought uh on a personal note I just want to say it's really important that we need to know and value our neighbors whether they are our fellow residents our fellow business people or some mix thereof it's really important and that has happened before Walt Wickman with uh we had a huge concert in uh Edgewater Park uh Beerfest very loud upset a lot of the people on Victoria Walt was having Stone Crab Fest a few weeks after that I talked to Walt and explained the situation to him Walt not only turned his stage so it wouldn't face down the street in our building he also ended everything at 10:00 because he cared about the neighbors that's the kind of community I think we live in and I hope everyone will will do that and value each other as we go forward that's how we'll stay healthy thank you Kevin okay anyone else wish to come forward and speak Andy come on down hello everyone Andy pulse 1942 Horseshoe Bend um but a lot of these points were covered earlier I'm just going to just take a minute here just a couple things I moved here in 1981 I've been here a long time and I do remember when this was a ghost town I I I do believe this would be a huge step backwards when you travel around a country you meet people you talk to people hey you're from denen and they're familiar with denen what comes to mind from them it's our vibrant night life it's our many restaurants our breweries our pubs our hangout spots our walkable destinations it's not the apartments or condos that have been stuffed downtown it's not our C quiet after 11 that comes to mind uh it's the town that we've become this is not a business versus resident thing this is kind of I think it's a misnomer and we've gotten a bad WP for that the vast majority of residents really support the downtown businesses there's a few businesses I mean where're there's a few I say activist residents but there's a few residents a minority residents that are affected by this and they're doing this they're through a bastardization a weaponization of this Antiquated outdoor ordinance that was really meant for right away dining wasn't a meant to apply for businesses and own property was it on the books and being applied yes but it was never enforced nobody knew about it this is not an extension either of what we're doing we've been doing this for 20 years nothing's going to change it's just we're here because of one business one resident uh this enforcement just started so this is It's not like all of a sudden the gates are going to open and everybody's going to be open till 3:00 a.m. and having live music till 3:00 a.m. that's just not the case it's not a Citywide problem um I I keep hearing about what could happen Okay well this could happen or business could come in here I mean this is a solution looking for a problem I mean I think we're trying to kill a mosquito with a hand grenade here and the last thing I want to say is I mean you got guys I I know the the the the impulse to try to make everyone happy you're not going to be able to make everyone happy whatever you guys decide whether it's tonight or the next meeting you're going to piss off a lot of people I give people beer for a living I can't make everybody happy so just just realize that we we like Kevin said we try to get along the best we can I think we've made a lot of inroads in doing that but um you can call it what you want but it's a curfew I know no other town or city that has a curfew you I've I've never been to one I don't know anybody who has so um I'd like to just remind everybody let's go with the city staff's recommendation the lpa's recommendation and let's get rid of the Lord vacate thanks thank you Andy anybody else okay this is going to be my fault and I know it's late but I need a comfort break I can't hold it anymore so we got to take five minutes I'm so sorry but um we have to have some time for a dialogue [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] a [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] a [Music] [Applause] oh [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] I yeah [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] well if you guys are anything like me past your bedtime a little bit um this is a night time I know all right so we i' make a joke about going to a bar but not that's not a good idea um okay so we'll call the meeting to order thank you for your patience um so is there a motion on the um ordinance really am I am I going to have to turn my gavel over no one's willing to make some kind of motion so moved thank you can I get a second here you go second okay so um not sure what I'm doing here yeah uh Jeff is the maker I mean Rob is the maker of the motion Rob's the maker of the motion so we'll we'll go to him thank you vice mayor so what I what I've been hearing over the last several hours and it's it's a little bit discouraging disappointing but point of everything else that follows this is it doesn't have to be um this this is not us against them it's really not it is not it is this or that it's not black or white there's there's an element of gray between that black and white and the the key to this is is we have to find that um the residents absolutely everybody the the community should live love work play together that's residents and businesses so what does that mean the businesses have a duty to their Community partner to operate their businesses in a responsible way for the most part I've observed nothing less I you know I there's a few breweries that put in the claws into their contracts with their entertainment with their musicians that they have to be packing up at 10:30 10:45 to be done and 11 um you know I I think I think that that is that is a responsible part of the process the thing that concerns me is if we keep the word vacate in or yeah vacate um and if vacate is enforced we are now putting an additional restriction on our downtown business actually all of our businesses and you know as an elected official um as a proponent of not having a government that overreaches I I don't think we should be in the business of doing that now you're probably thinking to yourselves The Sound Ordinance well that's kind of a kind of a restriction on the business but if you think about it that's a compromise and I believe there have been some things put in place to ensure that the noise or excuse me I was just getting to the good part um I think that there's there's been measures put in place to ensure that this is properly enforced and um the thing that concerns me about restricting the businesses is first of all the potential for significantly affecting livelihoods um another part of this is is that businesses will be put in a position where they will have to enforce something that should be enforced by the noise ordinance think put yourself in the role of a manager uh an employee and have to be the one that's going to go shut your outdoor dining down moving everybody indoors you know the people that don't get pissed off are going to leave and now you're stuck with the pissed off people um so I share the mayor's concern about the impact on businesses what what we're going through this addressing the compliance aspect um I think we really need to think through what a timeline looks like and what a cost looks like to the business um so so where did we go from here I know we can figure this out the noise abatement part of this you know I I think maybe that has its own separate timeline um but at the end of the day regardless of the decision that's made we're all going to have to work together on this we need to come back as a as a community we really do the discourse that we've all observed over the last several weeks has has been absolutely unacceptable and uh with that said uh the ordinance itself is not perfect but it's a path forward that I don't think any of us want to be talking about this for the next several weeks going forward so um I'm going to support the ordinance the the draft or what do we call this the draft ordinance and uh with that said uh that's all I've got thank you okay I was just having discussion with the mayor that I wanted to try to second the motion um I wish I had done that to begin with and if it's possible with the rules if I can do that thank you um I should have done to be going but but the bottom line um I do second the motion and I want to make my statements about um you know the whole situation and thank you rob that was well done I came to denen in the mid 8s after college and I immediately got a job with the city downtown was vacancies and dust balls on Main Street in the beginning living room was an auto part store Smokehouse was a tow yard clear sky was a Sunstar ambulance location Artisan Apartments was a old broken down metal building that I thought would never be anything but that it would never go away so in 1988 the community redevelopment District was formed and the downtown was zon downtown core might have already been but at least at that point it was definitely done not later than this the vision was to create the live work play environment and to create a vibrant downtown so the city started to invest in Den Eden and small business entrepreneurs took a chance in denen Kathy and Virgil with Kelly's and then chob Boom Room Sylvia with CC ryers Tina and aier with catinas Trina and N with flanigans Michael and CNY Bryant with Denine Brewery and of course what was always there was blur it might have been called dapes or 1470 but it was there Greg Brady started ddma held the first Marty gr but for a long time the place was dead and these were the beginnings the seeds that started it and of course there were growing pains along the way some of that led to the noise ordinance 16 years ago the right way outdoor dining permit so here we are we are a vibrant downtown we are the Envy of other cities and now we are having more growing pains and if we work together we'll get through this it's about being good neighbors it's about showing respect I've really struggled with this as you could see didn't really want to be the maker of the motion or the second of the motion but I believe in this ordinance I've reached out to so many residents and so many businesses and talked to so many people because that's what we do up here we have to listen to both sides and there are a lot of different nuances to this people would come at me one way or another all for the residents all for the businesses and I'd say you know it's loaded with nuances it's complicated it's complicated it's not black and white there are a lot of varying views on this vacate outside areas at 11 or 12 vacate outside areas 12 to1 as a compromise the problem is all Scotland should we treat Scotland different if we mandate vacating at 1 or earlier well why would you do that why would you hurt this is a real comment by the way of a neighbor a direct neighbor why would you do that to Kathy Carlson who's the best neighborhood uh business that there is don't kill off our creativity and our Vibe outdoor areas are part of what people like especially since Co it's part of the ambience of a coastal city [Applause] when I think about vacate versus curfew I think about when I go to blur I cannot stand the loud music inside I got to go outside and get my head straight and have a drink and talk a little bit I can't imagine being forced to go in I just can't and by the way every place else seems to be pretty well closed up by then that seems to be the place to go couple Saturdays ago I was out in sa Club has outside seating till 2: on Saturday people just chatting getting away from the music inside and just chatting and I'm thinking really should we ask them to go in it just doesn't feel right it feels like a curfew it just feels like a curfew so I respect all the residents in business and their heartfelt views and it sickened me that one of those residents had to walk out today because they felt insulted and I understand why they felt insulted it sickens me what's happened here to our community because again it's about being good neighbors but at the end of the day I think there's a lot of protections here for residents too and it and I think we have to trust each other this isn't a one one time deal we can still adjust if we have to down the road so I am absolutely not somebody who wants to over legislate I really don't we have so many good think about it we have so many good creative businesses that communicate well with the residents whether it's Kathy Carlson at blur or Kim and hanu or Janet at Bowsers who keep regularly in touch and try to be courteous and they're good neighbors so I am going to support the ordinance with certain provisions of course that we see a clear enforcement plan I like the idea of during the main season that it's uh that 3:00 a.m. we have the officers there not just for that but you know people tell me about all kinds of stuff out there urination on people's property and making love on people's property kind of nice to have a little law enforcement presence there I think um we need to ensure that there's real solid teeth for the Bad actors cuz we know there's going to be some bad actors and there needs to be teeth I believe and I brought it up earlier that we need to review the ordinance at the 2-year and threeyear Mark and see if there are unintended consequences we should do that as a community we should want to do that and we could make adjustments to that this is not forever we can make adjustments if we find out it's just not working it's still problematic and I I certainly want to feel feel comfortable that rocka's behavior is somehow handled through uh you know nuisance ordinances or something like that uh and I and I completely agree that if anybody's weaponizing against businesses with with you know unwarranted complaints constantly you know there ought to be something there for that too so with all that said I'm sorry I know I'm going on a little long but we listened for a long time with all that said I'm going to get to this Crux of this I want to tell this room a story one or two Saturdays ago at night I went to The Artisan apartment and I've done this periodically to see what the Artisan people are thinking I met a nice couple in their 40s early 40s I believe they lived Artisan about 5 years they loved the needen as I asked them they said we're good with the noise we're we're good we're fine F we love it that's why we moved here they used to go to one of the establishments and they felt special going to one of the establishments by them but then and they were proud it was my neighborhood place to go but now they don't go there because periodically The Establishment started to say f Artisan F Artisan F artisan and it wasn't f so they don't go there anymore they don't feel welcome they go to other places in the needen they love the needen and I got to tell you how that saddened me because that is not Den need that is not Den need this is not a perfect science I think everyone here knows what stifles you know what stifles the organic Vibe of a downtown I don't know what makes a Down Town L its charm and become too wild I don't know but I do know what will absolutely destroy our downtown and our community if the residents and businesses of this community continue to vilify each other and get in each other's face and make it personal when we're all good people this is not about winners and losers and if it is we've all lost and we've lost something really special because this town is really special I will live and die in this town so the only way we're going to get through this is to trust and make sure we've got safeguards in this ordinance not over legislate but believe in ourselves again respect each other show people Grace reach back out I know there's I saw the notice on a party tonight and I think the words were um celebrating freedom from tyranny and fascism that is not going to bring our community together what's going to bring our community together is maybe how about a party this weekend welcoming our neighbors back into our into our businesses letting them know you know yes there are some complainers that maybe shouldn't live in downtown but let's not pain us all that way anyway let's give each other Grace let's come back together let's think about what it is to live in the other person's shoes and let's be Den Eden thank you thank you commissioner commissioner gal really I've got to follow that I just would say what she said yeah ditto and I'm done no really um thank you vice mayor that was very eloquent um the whole tyny concept I was going to bring that up as well uh businesses whether you realize it or not you have an insane amount of power you have to understand that as as angry as you can be at any Resident that you think is against you you beat them a h hundredfold with your with your followers and what you can do on social media and when you post a resident's address name that's just wrong that's just wrong so I don't know how this whole thing got started uh but we are in a really really dark place and the fact that we have a business that is now celebrating a win over tyranny tonight uh uh speaks volumes about their character um the the the concern over if you do it downtown you should do it in the residents uh I'm sorry I disagree with that I think that's totally different it's totally different to have a business outdoor dining and me sitting on my back porch with a neighbor I just I think they're totally different um uh Mo you you you took everything I I I I do support this but I have grave concerns again B right right now if we take away the vacate the entire protection for the residents lays at the at the decimal level and reading it at the property line please be proactive owners of your business manage your business don't put it on the backs of the residents to call law enforcement when you you know if if I got to call law enforcement I'm already ticked off I'm tired you woke me up and it just makes for a really unrest it's just and it's unnecessary don't put it on the backs of the residents and the n and law enforcement to manage your business for you uh we're much better than that thank you thank you commissioner gal commissioner TOA I heard a couple comments and well I believe we have a very successful downtown right now and we became very successful through the efforts of of of many of you um and and and through having a just a great City and we we are a coastal city and we've got a lot of advantages um one of the things that I want to make sure that we do not do and I did not second or make this motion because I would have asked to table it uh and I didn't want to confuse any I didn't want to confuse this about this so I figured let the let this happen this way and I'm going to make my comments um I I believe that um I do not want to see us become and I'm not going to call it a police state and I love our Sheriff deputies I don't want to see this become everybody running around with this little thing checking out the sound thing uh the reason why we use the word vacate and if you don't like that word it it is it is not a it's it's not a challenge to to to a business it's a challenge it's a challenge to a community and what we're trying what what the purpose was was to trying to live work and play and draw some time when in fact that should take place but not restrict a business that could stay open and they could stay open inside so I don't want to get anybody upset but but perhaps it's it's okay to look at this as two sides of your business one is the outside and one is the inside if that's what has to happen to prevent us from having the sheriff having to go around the sheriff is not going to tell the people to do anything in fact the sheriff can't do that I don't think but the sheriff would is is focusing on on you or the businesses as to what needs to get accomplished and and if and if we're just going to take the position well I have rights and I want my and I'm a property right guy but I'm also a community and I'm also for a citizenz community uh and so the we understand what the intent was here for me what is happening we're going too fast too far and we're taking a big risk and certainly we can all we can always look at all ordinances after a year or two or three but in this particular case can you imagine us telling you you can a business owner a business owner you can you you may stay open until 3 if that's what you if that's what you wish to do and uh oh by the way now we're going to change that now we're going to change it to to 12 wow I also don't have no idea and I would like to know this and I call this data I would like to know how many people really want to stay open until till 3:00 and and that would be interesting that's just in our CRA 217 Acres I have no idea what's going to happen when it goes someplace else and that's problematic for me I also I also think that there's giving the giving a business let's just talk not not in the downtown let's not in the CRA let's just talk someplace else giving them the right to stay open until 3: and unintended didn't realize what was happening here suddenly they're in a they're in a huge area where there's people that live and all of a sudden we get somebody comes that comes in there and becomes very shall we say aggressive aggressive until three um wow uh sort of a problem if if you ask me uh certainly the resident a resident problem I talked about unintended consequences and I got feedback from that I'm not talking about that unintended consequence I'm talking about what it does what it can do to you and then what it can do to the resident certainly when it moves out of here but how about what what does it do to you so we heard somebody stand up and they're not here right now but they said wow you can't do that you're going to do that to me that's I wow I don't think I can I don't think I can take that um I think it needs to be communicated a little bit a little bit more efficiently than what it has been before I voted on it I don't feel comfortable voting on it at this point in time I have I have too much of a respect for my responsibility for the third I use 37,000 for the 37,000 residents that we have here but also for the businesses everybody knows here I think that I was a business guy for a long long time and uh there there's there are two parts of it for what I have to do and that is all of it um I have to concern myself with what makes an effective business how can we make it make it more effective for the business to grow um one of the things that we hear in the surveys we take is whoa let's slow this down just a little bit why we're going too fast or that's what we're hearing currently and that was a surveys that that that the staff was involved with um that came through loud and clear we hear that I did speak with a number of people as I mentioned before residents that were not in downtown about how they felt about a an ordinance that would come out that would allow perhaps someone in their neighborhood and I didn't ask people that were in totally restricted areas like our 60s okay my community is R 60 so I'm not talking about I'm not worried about my community that I have a responsibility for but I do know other communities where they can be affected by this and I can I can I can hear them and I can feel I can feel their pain when they find out there are people in here tonight that said they didn't really understand some of these uh some of these ordinances that even exist today there's a lot of residents that do not understand either I was interested to hear that there was some survey that was taken of 4,000 4,000 people I never ran into one of them and uh and if I did I'm not sure they really understood what this ordinance is about and I think I think we really need to take a look at that before we put this into effect uh I think we're going too far too fast and we ought to slow it down and therefore because of that at this point in time I see the pain for for a number of people I simply I simply cannot vote in favor of of this uh of this ordinance at this point in time it's no disrespect meant to anyone that worked on it um I just don't feel like we've we've done enough communication enough work to the outside so I'll leave it at that um I will say I will say that I would sure love to hear how many people really intend to stay open until 3: somebody ought to communicate that or collect that information uh because I have no idea but I I I don't think it's I don't think it's going to be a lot and I think if you do look at it as two pieces uh it might be more helpful but I do not want to see the police having to have this responsibil and I heard somebody say that let the people with a little instrument come up and see what the noise is what the noise level is it's it's it's really not it's really not about that uh they may catch it and may not catch it but somebody has to complain or they have to come and search all the time to see what's happening and that goes through all of den Eden with this passes may it may not affect anybody quickly but it may I'm not sure I also don't know really how many people want to spend the money uh to to increase their hours and that's another question that really ought to be asked an economic question um what's what's really the benefit for you to stay open that late uh Etc because I don't know if the business is really there or not I haven't heard anybody talk about that or say I'm losing all kinds of business because I could be doing this I just haven't heard that so with that I do know that I do know that the residents on that committee or that group uh we're not we're not not supportive of of of staying staying late so I guess we appointed him and we put him to work and so I'm going to I'm also going to take that into consideration thank you thank you commissioner I was also fortunate to be here when we did the outdoor dining ordinance and that is what it was called and it was brought forward and I know mo will remember this because um the living room and at the time former pensari which is where Pisces is wanted to be able to use our right up way for Cafe out outdoor dining and this was in 2007 and 8 it started getting talked about in seven and we needed to have some type of control over it because it's public owned property and so um at that time if you think back to then that was right when the recession started happening and um we were trying to give businesses opportunities um to increase their footprint because we are very limited with very small pieces of property um small Lots not a lot of of room to expand um and we did not have what what is in the world today we're not St Pete but if you go everywhere in St Pete every single business has outdoor space but they have a lot they're bigger Community right that started happening after we put this ordinance the existing ordinance into place no one could have seen Co and the wanting to be outside nobody could see the business Dynamic of this sector change the way it did nobody could have predicted it but it happened but when we put this existing ordinance in place it was very clear that it was really meant for sidewalk cafes so I'm just going to read something from some minutes from December 1st 2008 we were in the discussion I was asking questions about you know I was concerned because we had existing businesses that had different types of dining and I say I'm talking to Greg rice our former community development director and I say but I guess the question is I'm just reading word for word for instance like Kelly's has an outdoor dining in the back Greg says uh-huh I say okay if they come along when this rule is enacted our outdoor dining ordinance would you then start kicking people off their outdoor dining area by midnight the answer was no this ordinance is only going to address the front and the side I say got it they respond so that establishment their outdoor dining in the rear and I respond yes but you're saying just front or side which is that front sidewalk or the side kind of how like how Sterling is on the side right um correct that was always the intention of this ordinance and I clear verified it back then we had very detailed minutes um because nobody anticipated the kind of business models that we have now nobody ever anticipated that but the world changes and it's going to keep changing there are things that'll happen in 10 years that we can't anticipate today but we were talking about that vacate ever since I was young my dream I was looking up stuff I know um you made me lose my train of thought now um everything that we were looking at then we were worried about being on public property after 11:00 because guess what the public owns it there was no discussion or deep discussion about somebody's private property which is something completely different but again we didn't have the business models we have today so you go from there then we go through that whole recession thing and then things start picking up and we start seeing new business models and then yeah we had grass gate and then we had had Co so we never changed this thing we kept trying to apply it to everyone which was our bad our mistake we should have not done that but we did have a few major things that we were tackling and here we are not every business model is the same honu restaurant she's done at 11 maybe she they stay open till 12 on the back by their rumar but there they a sit down restaurant for the most part right but seven sons isn't hob isn't wood right isn't blur isn't but then you've got living room which is that has outdoor space Pisces that is it has outdoor space we it's not a one-sized fits-all here and we shouldn't try to make it fit into that that's why the vacate doesn't work because we're now trying to make everything fit into this one tiny little mold and I mean we all know it sitting in this room and everybody watching knows this we've never enforced it because it was never the intention so all of these years we've been eating on the back of Kelly's now Crown bable we've been eating you know we've been and drinking and listening to music and all the different things that go out on these outdoor are is what are you going to do now tell everybody on the back of blur that they have to leave at 11:00 it's been going on since blur existed so the perceived problem and I'm using blur as an example because Cathy is in my line of sight the perceived problem I mean there's not going to be a change wood R they don't have outdoor they don't have an outdoor dining permit to my knowledge now granted they close at 11: they have every right to stay home stay open later if they want to they're an all out almost an all outdoor space I mean they have a tiny small inside but most people are there to sit outside hob I mean I I can't think of them all I'm I'm just focusing on the downtown right now these people have been doing this for a very long time and the world has not Fallen apart all we're doing is just like with the noise ordinance we're clarifying what is already happening and no offense to anybody up here but to say that we need to that we haven't taken long enough this thing should have been changed 10 years ago number one and we've been working on it with the BRC for 2 years that's pretty long time I think the noise ordinance being clarified getting the right enforcement I'm looking at you you know is going to help um noise abatement for new businesses coming in um me just double check A couple of my points here so here's another thing I know most everyday people don't think about this because I never did until I actually got into this job but land use and what you can do on a piece of property is controlled by your zoning our zoning was created started by planning ogs Dan masaro and many other people in 198 8 in downtown reboot has been the same Zone since 1988 what's been allowed there has been allowed there since 1988 and especially on all of the other down down core properties so whether they've been there since 1988 doesn't matter so it when I hear hear people say businesses are encroaching on our residential area that has been commercial downtown core since 88 or 91 or whatever whatever whenever it was finally codified so it's hard to hear people say they're encroaching now that's not to say the cornhole Melissa not Melissa uh Helen will tell you I simply said stop your cornhole at 11:00 it's an easy fix make it go away you know be a good neighbor a lot of kind of what vice mayor has been saying be a good neighbor um it doesn't have to be this this conflict but there were a handful of residents that started down this road six years ago and have been attacking ever since attacking every business that they can and it's been targeted and it's nobody in this room so um and that has started it all and so I get I believe everything you said about it's so sad to see what's happening on social media and businesses you know the Tyranny and things but I also understand the frustration when you get hammered for five or six years and nothing changes and nobody does anything about it and you're just trying to make a living coming out of Co yeah I can see why they've come to that point so the real call is to like you said vice mayor the word is forgiveness we just need to forgive each other and start over and take a deep breath um because it's not necessary and I mean I understand the frustration on both sides the other thing I want to bring up is I do want to bring up the 2,000 square ft thing I'd like the consensus of my commission I feel it is very very harsh to try to put a business through the development review process the same scrutiny as a big huge Condo building would get for 2000 square ft of outdoor space and here's why well a it's like $2,000 just to get into the DRC process and then you're talking six to eight months probably and Engineering I mean who has to go through engineering to put some pavers down in a fence I mean it just it's too much um and I worry I don't think we have a lot of that problem in the downtown but I don't know you seen the do Dog Pub going on in 580 and the new Dog Pub on Alt 19 our c are expanding 580 and 19 and Alt 19 all about residential property but those lots are a lot bigger so just a normal business trying to open with some outdoor space could easily hit 2,000 square fet more so than they can down here and I think one of our problems in the past is not thinking about the future I think we have to think about that this isn't just for downtown the cause way to me if you got 2,000 square ft or more well then guess what your noise attenuation plan has to be bigger and more stringent and whatever things I don't know a lot about but I'm sure they can be bigger and more stringent so I would like to ask our city manager and her staff if my colleagues would agree can they look at a different option I'm not saying that the public doesn't have a right to to be a part of the process I just think that process is way too intense and I I kind of feel like you could come up with maybe a little bit of a less intense less expensive and less timec consuming process for somebody who's trying to open up a business I am certain mayor that George and I can can afford an acceptable process to the city commission would you guys be acceptable for them to look into something like that okay um I'm getting a little slap Happy here um I think I said it all I think we all did um so how about a roll call vote commissioner gal hi commissioner TOA hi vice mayor frainy hi commissioner Walker I mayor balski I that motion passes four to one now you can clap thank you guys for sticking with us thank you guys for all being a part of the process I know there are a lot of people watching we've all been getting little texts and dings and you know so we really appreciate it we'll be doing this again in September I don't remember the date fth September 5th 5th all right thank you guys we're adjourned [Music] e