##VIDEO ID:5fOci3w8WcI## [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] welcome everybody to our Thursday September 19th City Commission meeting we will call this meeting to order and if you will please join me as Jennifer leads us in the invocation and Pledge of Allegiance let us begin this meeting by taking a brief moment of silence and reflection amen amen I pledge allegiance to of United States of America and to the it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank you Jennifer so now one of the most important things of the evening is um the recognition of our grade one and grade 4A pipe bands for their performance at the European and World Championships um before I turn it over to our Scottish liaison extraordinaire um who will be honoring our um pipe Bands tonight uh um I would like to just recognize and if you would all the folks that went to Sterling Scotland to see our bands perform would you please [Applause] stand thank you you can be seated and the reason why I wanted to do that was um you know as we honor our bands we we all felt it was important an as we visit with our sister city Sterling Scotland that um no time in the past had anybody gone to Worlds and watched our wonderful pipe band and we wanted to write that wrong um and make it a new tradition so that when we do go over and visit with our sister city that we are visiting with our band as well because they're representing us to the whole world um and boy did they represent us well so I will now turn it over to commissioner GA who also joined us in Scotland thank you mayor very much uh you know when we talk about our our pipe bands a lot of you have heard some of you maybe not but the story of of the pipe bands and it's fairly common knowledge in in dun Eden but right it started out when we were considering building a a new Middle School Junior High in dun Eden and uh newspaper reporter suggested that we should have back pipes and a future mayor who actually owned the newspaper uh got in touch with somebody who had some pipes and they were donated to the to the school and that was in 1957 uh uh 1 two 3 four years later 1961 dine High School opens ah surprise pipe band and then four years then in 1964 oh the city dun Eden pipe band and so that's really was a time when we had community schools and it really was just a funnel just from the Middle School to the high school to the city band and so it was just a wonderful opportunity but I don't think anybody in dun Eden really ever considered what's the longevity of this where where's it going what's it doing and so I think every year we just kind of have gotten in this routine of just doing it and never really thinking forward on on what this whole Scottish Community and Performing Arts really look like and so I thought it was important tonight to uh certainly recognize the pipe bands and their accomplishments when they were in Scotland uh but also an opportunity to invite some some Schoolboard people because without the Middle School don't do it J G to get me going really without the high school we wouldn't have this we really wouldn't and when you look at places and events like the Holly games that start out as a high school boosters fundraiser and look what it's become it's just amazing and astounding and it really is the most unique educational opportunity in the United States you will not find in the public school system and I know that they think I brought them here to bash them about this but I really didn't but just to embrace the idea that this is such an incredible unique educational opportunity and such a connection between our schools and Community which is more rare every day and so the fact that the number of residents that went to support on their own dime business owners that went over to Scotland is just a wonderful wonderful thing so at least before I recognize the pipe bands I did want to recognize some of the school personnel and we actually have uh County school superintendent Kevin hendrik up with us today and Kevin if you could come up Sir because we are going to make you honorary plan done Eden [Applause] yay and M not only is he superintendent but he was actually a teacher at I need in high school which makes this moment just a a little sweeter uh and then next we have uh School Board member Eileen long uh thank you Eileen stand up please and let's recognize you stand up please just just stand up and wa thank you very much um a j a Jory Spencer who is the K12 K PK through 12 uh Performing Arts specialist so he oversees all the Performing Arts in our in our Public Schools Jory can you stand up please and just and when you look at how active our public schools are in the Performing Arts and the fpas and the npas and whether that's chorus or band or coner band Orchestra solos ensembles uh the man is one busy busy person so thank you Jordan for for being here and certainly uh the leader of an a School fourth in the county so happy to introduce Jim kiblinger principal of dunan high school and Jim if you could step forward please and I'm guessing on sizes thank you very much and and so when I talked with Eric about this and for those who don't know Eric Eric Eric and Ian could you all step forward please [Applause] and just stand at the podium I'm just going to talk about you just going to talk about you uh thank you for what you do every day every day are in our middle school every day they're in our high school every day they spend their Saturday mornings not just once a month not whenever they feel like it every Saturday they're at the commity Community Center they're in Tuesdays and Thursday nights they're somewhere but but but all of this is around our pipe bands and what they do and the idea that you can just call them and say hey we need a band we need a piper and it's like breun they just appear so it's just so wonderful so what I wanted to do is just introduce uh the pipe band actually could the pipe band just stand the ones that are here just stand quickly I won't ask you to come up but just another sprinkled everywhere thank you allst uh I think it's important everybody recognizing so I'm actually going to read all the names I I I I don't want to make this an all evening thing so I'll be quick but the important part about it is I wanted to at least acknowledge the number of alumni I talked about kind of a funnel from the Middle School to the high school to the CD band and it certainly started out that it was more of excuse me an alumni band back in the early 60s um and it's not there anymore but you would be surprised at the number of alumni that still participate uh so it's just wonderful so I thoughted to start off with real quickly the grade one Pipers we have pipe major Ian Donaldson and then we have pipe Sergeant Haley uh messic who is an alumni Jim Delah who's an alumni Peterson Clair Emma brandmire who is an alumni Jace Curry alumni Michael dear Ryan mayatt William greld and I'm butchering some of these so I do apologize uh Jeb Bruner Finn Kellum Finn is an alumni Katherine Miller alumni Sam Wy Griffin Hall James Evert lumni Josh Collins Robert maner Robert lck Cameron Dawson Brian Martin grade one snare drummers lead drummer Eric mcneel Joseph Wallace alumni William Delah alumni Shane Stapleton Caleb Ric alumni Amilia radic Luca ah sorry Luca Luca deari um a current current current uh DHS senior and this is a great one pipe band that's an that's just astounding to be grade one still in still in high school it's amazing amazing amazing practic Osborne Sebastian porier bastrom Taylor tib Tibby alumni uh Ben ekins iin oh Ben I'm so sorry do not tell Ben I butchered last name uh tener Lizzy guga alumni Jamie Alfred Taylor Craven alumni Jeremy Jones alumni grade four Graham Donaldson alumni Michael Frey Jordan PL John McDonald Gabe denmore Ashley Britton alumni Ken mckin uh clouse Hendrickson John Hughes alumni Amanda barck Mark McAfee Gabe uh shrer Seth Kenny truth mccraine alumni Nancy Gus Wayne frenton Alex Prothro alumni Elsa dillah Grace dky Jack sha current freshman at East Lake it's okay it's okay that's all right but he stuck with the city band how cool is that uh snare in grade four uh Antonio amaran alumni Ryan Duca Randy bolock William Hummel Jack thirston miles McMullen Kade duck current Junior at dunen High School uh Liam Jacobs current freshman at East Lake uh Connor bu berucci current freshman at Palm Harbor and Gary Smith tener drum Jessica fry Owen Owen smuck alumni Gavin santor current sophomore at DHS Leah sharp Amilia Lane current freshman at Palm Harbor base Tammy IG alumni and and that is your city of D pipe band grade four and grade one H well I know a guy thank you Eric uh and so um I know when I started to do this Eric said should we say something bless his heart I just said yeah you guys can say something uh so they're probably in between what the has said and what I've said they're going what are we going to talk about um but I know they'll figure it out what I want to do now is at least read their certificates and then give them an opportunity maybe to talk about what it takes to actually get to the worlds and it's not just like going across the street and it takes some effort um but certificate of recognition presented to the city of deden pipe band grade four in recognition of winning first place at the 2024 Perth holling games in Perth Scotland and claiming the title European Champions the city of dun Eden is proud to acknowledge your outstanding accomplishment congratulations [Applause] he wasn't expecting gr to come up so I of course it's the last one there we go certificate of recognition presented to the city of dun Eden pipe band in recognition of placing fifth at the 2024 World pipe band championships in the grade four category in Glasgow Scotland the city of Duneden is proud to acknowledge your outstanding accomplishment congratulations and wait a minute did you hear that fifth in the world fifth in the world fifth in the world that one just standing up okay certificate of recognition presented to the city of dun Eden pipe band in recognition of placing 14th in the 2024 World pipe band championships in the grade 1 category glasow Scotland the city of deden is proud to acknowledge your outstanding accomplishments congratulations well done certificate of recognition presented to the city of dunen pipe band in recognition of placing 11th at the 2020 24 European pipe band championships in the grade one category at the Perth holling games in Perth Scotland the city of D Eden is proud to acknowledge your outstanding accomplishments congratulations and with that Ian and Eric we would love to hear from you something thanks very much uh Jeff you kind of said everything I had written down on my paper so um you asked on what it takes to get to uh to get to the world to get to Scotland and compete and it's exactly what you said it takes the it takes a village the city of den need to make that happen and uh what we have here is pretty unique we can uh teach kids in the Middle School teach the kids in the high school and they still they uh they feed right into the city band and they learn they love the passion of of piping and drumming um and it's the ironic part is they probably never thought about doing that at all when they entered the middle school it's just something brand new to them and then there was quite a few of the of the youngsters there this year first time going to Scotland seeing all those bands there's 20 I don't know 240 bands there I mean that's a big difference from seeing maybe 12 bands at Orlando howling game so I mean that's a pretty big imp impact so it should be a lasting impact so that's what it takes the love of the instrument and a lot of money a lot of fundraising lot of money a lot of fundraising yes and I have to thank the dsaf for their continued support and uh and all their hard work and countless hours of volunteering to to raise money for that just that reason for the three bands so thank them very very much uh Eric um thank you uh appreciate uh being the opportunity to be recognized um here in the community in front of the community um it's pretty special I don't think that happens uh all over the place and so uh thank you Jeff mayor every Commissioners for doing this tonight um I think uh I think I think the whole thing is pretty special um I mean I I have uh I've Loved pipe bands and playing in pipe band since the time I was a very young kid and for so to have the opportunity to be involved in the community here teach play um travel to Scotland and represent the community that I call Home is pretty special and um I really enjoy that and I appreciate the opportunity to do that and grateful for the entire program uh at the middle school the high school the support from penel County Schools um from the dunen Scottish Arts Foundation um and from all the families and supporters of the city of denen pipe band that help make this possible cuz it wouldn't be uh otherwise so uh thank you very much and we forgot to bring our little denan Brewery fan things we all held them up from from the bleachers so that they could see where we were sitting definitely made me smile I we standing at the at the line at the worlds and looking up into the stands and seeing those it made me smile look at those guys and we met you every time you came off the field and that was so cool to see you guys walk off and I mean you were busy it wasn't like we could spend a lot of time with you but being able to spend those those few moments every time you performed really made us proud and I don't know if you all know but the denen Highland Games is now um what penel county visits St P clwater which is a our convention and Visitor Bureau considers the Highland game games a penel county Elite event and they contribute $75,000 a year now to this to the Dyan Scottish Arts foundation for what they are doing for for the people that they bring here to celebrate the Scottish culture um but for what they're doing for our kids and young adults and not so young adults um to carry on the tradition we hope everyone will come out to the Celtic Festival and the Highland Games yeah don't forget about the Celtic Festival we will be there and I'm going to stand up and give you another round of applause congratulations so we're going to do some pictures we're going to have the band come up and then we want to also have the people that went to Scotland come up in school schol administration as well yeah okay we're going to have to squish in everybody's got to squish in squish in squish in I may need a second row so short people in the front short people in front here abely I'm going to need more of you to just fill in yes yes over here too yes there's no I'm going to stop on my tippy toes I'll go over here all right I'm going to need I'm G to probably ask some of you to just come down here I know this Podium is in the way but maybe just even if you want to me yeah but but this way yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yes that yes yes so not necessarily this picture but remember the school board and administration no he does but it's got Electronics yes boy okay this might be the biggest group we've had yet all right I got you though I got you all right ready okay wonderful do we want the Schoolboard with them a pretty big picture it is a big picture but somehow can we get the school mind no of course not I don't want to be in yeah that went shows the connection with the i the PIP all right Sue before before you guys walk away can we get the school admin to come up here as well all the school folks yeah yes I know that's a lot buts nice to see the connection between otherwise it's just a yeah that's perfect there you go squishing y y squishing squishing all right was too far oh way too far yeah okay all right thank you guys now we want all our Scotland travelers to come up no no you guys go there's too many people to get in there all right Scot people all right Scotland people get up here oh I want that I love it where'd you get that at where'd you get it at liar where'd you get it at where'd you get it at so cool All The Travelers travelers all the travel Dave scooch over really close in yes yes yes okay that's good that's good that's good yes be stand on your tiptoes I'm on my tip toes okay all right everyone ready say slanta slanta excellent and thank you guys again for spending all your hard-earned money to go over with see the the band we really appreciate it and just a quick shout out to Bill Howard who was the piper uh this evening out on the stairs all right you you guys don't have to stay you can keep going I we'd love to have you stay but I don't think you really want to stay here that long they sit through Schoolboard meetings yeah they don't want to sit through this okay thank you mayor for oh you're welcome no that was good we didn't tell everybody about the celebration next week well for anybody that's watching there is a celebration next Friday night at 7:00 right yep at Pioneer Park and we'll be marching from Pioneer Park to the denen brewery to celebrate the band even more so please join us it's open to the public all right okay um Now's the Time for citizen input anybody wishing to talk about anything that's not already on the agenda please feel free to come forward and do soat seeing or hearing nothing uh we'll move on to the first reading of ordinance 24-24 creating section 50-12 control access you know hey Sue maybe we should close the door okay first reading of ordinates 24-24 creating section 50-12 control of access to City owned and controlled and leased properties to the city of denan code of ordinances Jen would you please read ordinance 24 by 24-24 by title only ordinance 24-24 in ordinance of the city of deden Florida creating section 50-12 control of access to city-owned controlled and leased property of the city of deden code of ordinances to create restrictions on access to city-owned controlled and leased property providing for codification providing for severability providing for conflict and providing for an effective date that was ordinance 2424 read by title only thank you can I have a motion to approve second okay commissioner twer and vice mayor fr thank you Teresa good evening mayor vice mayor uh City commission Teresa Smalling director of HR and risk management for the city uh as was read before section 512 will allow the city manager to designate identify and designate specific areas within City owned V buildings and Facilities that are not accessible to the public um the Supreme Court has ruled rule that uh there is no guarantee that of unrestricted public access to government buildings and uh we think that this will uh assist the city in uh safeguarding not only employees but also areas where uh government property such as storage facilities will not be accessible to the public and once this ordinance if this ordinance is passed the areas will be properly signed with with the you know appropriate signage uh any this time if you have any questions okay any questions for Teresa yeah yeah well first of all um it's not going to be signed pollution time is it I mean like our brand new building with signs everywhere we would not want to have that happen by I mean is it fairly minimal or is it literally it would just it would we wouldn't say you know we would just basically say not accessible to the public small tasteful signs so we wouldn't say this area is accessible this area is not accessible just the areas that we say you you cannot access and keep it simple and small so it's not like a sign at every you know every room and no okay um the other thing that was a little confusing to me it talks a little bit about not being able to record and it goes into detail in the beginning of the ordinance about you know you can't record with every you know anybody's permission that's on the recording but then it talks about the chamber differently if it's a public meeting can you clarify that uh sure I can start and then I'll probably call on our City attorney to assist so for example a private meeting with an employee the city does can say that that cannot be recorded a commission meeting which is a public forum would be recorded So there are distinct differences as to what would be considered appropriate recordings and what would not be considered and there once again case law has allowed for um employees public employees to uh decline uh recordings during a meeting and this would be a a not a public meeting but a meeting between the employee and someone else and and if I can add you you've had this issue where people have harassed employees and recorded it yes BEC the first you know there is a perception that the first amendment allows uh anyone to walk into a public building and be able to access anyone and do anything but this will um help to set those ground rules as to what is considered um a permissible under the First Amendment and what is not and I'm leave it up to our City attorney to assist further it's just a way of identifying where you have a limited Forum versus where you have a traditionally open public forum and what can happen in those spaces and it's just following um in uh case law and how it's dealt with in the first amendment in a limited form you can have more restrictions and in a more public form which is designated open to the public then you have less restrictions and this is just codifying this as it pertains to City facil ities okay and I assume most cities have done this or are doing it and I assume it's because of the importance of security and protecting all of US citizens employees everybody who's within the building yes so it's actually done for a couple of reasons first of all of course um the primary one is security it's also done with regard to ensuring that the um city is able to continue to function in an efficient way um there are many cities that have adopted this and this particular ordinance is based off another city that had adopted a similar ordinance it had been challenged in court and withstood The Challenge and so um we feel very comfortable that this is uh already been vetted as fully constitutional and well within your rights to be able to uh codify this I will say um there's also been an uptick and you may have seen some of this on social media or or heard about about it at U Florida Liga cities that there are sometimes there have been individuals who will come into a building and they will be videotaping and recording things and um if there aren't areas that are designated they often feel entitled to go all the way through the city and try and videotape even something that could be as sensitive as like a Personnel meeting um and where there's an expectation of confidentiality there could be medical issues being um discussed U that would never normally be publicized to the general public and so this is a way of making sure that the public knows exactly where they can go and what they can do and also afford City staff protection and efficiencies good okay thank you that that helps a lot I I don't think have any other questions okay and and vice mayor just so you know this was um partly from the Florida League of of cities in giving cities guidance on how to properly designate areas and you know as as Jennifer said protect um what we need to have not accessible to public to the public thank you okay commissioner Tanga any questions uh no I had no questions I I've assumed that this is really for clarification um from the standpoint of of what the law is and so I've looked at it that way I I trust that that holds true any questions no questions commissioner Walker well uh yeah just uh and I think you said this but just for clarification how did this come about because I'm going to be honest with you I'm surprised that this is even something that we haven't considered I guess well as as um City attorney uh stated there was an uptick of people that were um stating their First Amendment right to come into a public building and access everywhere everyone uh so the Florida League of cities you know put out a position paper to basically say you know here are the guidelines for handling these situations and along those lines you can also uh develop an ordinance or some you know legislation that clearly designates the areas that you the public is not does not have access to okay okay thank you you're welcome I don't have any questions um anybody from the public wish to come forward and speak to this item please good evening mayor vice mayor and City Council Members I am Irene Christa fores my address is 1941 Wood Haven Street I am a public policy and administration student at St Peters B college and I wanted to extend my gratitude to director Teresa sming um for her expertise and I appreciate all of your time today I'm here to support the approval of ordinance 2424 which introduces section 512 control of access to city-owned controlled and Lease property for the city of denan this ordinance is crucial not only for managing property access but also for enhancing the security and efficiency of the city's operations while safeguarding both public visitors and city employees here are some key reasons to support ordinance 2424 enhance security and privacy for public visitors the ordinance empowers the city manager to regulate public access to City properties improving safety and ensuring that visitors feel secure in public spaces protection for city employees and officers by establishing clear rules the ordinance will help prevent unauthorized access and protects the privacy and safety of city employees allowing them to work without un necessary risk or dist distractions minimize disruptions to City operations the ordinance aims to Res reduce interruptions to City operations by clearly defying public limited public and non-public areas this will help manage access and ensure City business runs smoothly lastly robust legal frame framework this ordinance ensures that our Access Control procedures are legally sound and effectively maintain the functionality of our facilities in summary ordinance 2424 will enable the city manager to regulate access to City properties improving security for both the public and city employees while minimizing operational disruptions I recommend approving this ordinance on its first reading today and finalizing it at this second reading in October thank you for your time and consideration thank you very much you I'm sorry I I didn't catch your name Irene christophorus Irene Chris thank you anyone else wish to come forward and speak to this item okay we'll come back to uh my colleagues commissioner TGA I have nothing further vice mayor fry no nothing nothing I totally understand it I know we've had a couple people come in here that have been not pleasant to deal with and um put fear into our employees so having something that they can easily refer to that they can hand to somebody and not get into an argument and not have to call the police is pretty important so thank you for bringing it forward a roll call vote please commissioner gal I commissioner walk commissioner Walker hi vice mayor frainy hi commissioner TGA hi mayor B I and that motion passes unanimously there will be a second reading of ordinance 24-24 on October 17th thank you thank you Teresa okay our next item is the acceptance and the naming of the J jurnigan property as a par Bob yes mayor and commission uh Bob IR Smith economic development director for the city of dun Eden here tonight uh discussing the Gateway development agreement as we all recall we had uh a lot of excitement under the Gateway project there was a development agreement that was put in place it actually became unfeasible due to inflation and U the economic environment interest rates contractor costs things of that nature and Mr kokakis has U sent to the city a request to terminate the existing development agreement uh staff certainly supports that we want to move forward reenvisioning that project but part of it he needs to satisfy the existing development agreement and in that existing development agreement had the obligation to go ahead and deed over the Jernigan track which is 610 of an acre which is just west of Milwaukee which is close to the Wellington Town Homes just a little bit north of the Boy Scout property uh that obligation was to deed it over as Recreation open space so in order to move forward with severing the current uh development agreement this needs to happen the actual uh termination development agreement for the commission to deliberate on is set for for uh October 3rd this is the first step in addition to this obligation to um deed over the property Mr kokak has has also asked to name the park after his late dad uh John kokakis here I'd like to just take a moment to go over some of the good deeds that Mr kokakis has done for the city and for the downtown in general uh first off several years ago he deed it over the uh Purple Heart Park which is next to shans there in the corner of Broadway in Main Street which as you all know is celebrated each year and is a nice asset for the downtown in addition uh working with staff requests and hearing from the public we wanted to get a grocery store downtown it was an important item that we were missing uh Joe worked very hard with us and and was uh very uh meable to make in the rent acceptable for n's Food Patch and we got Nature's Food Patch in the downtown that certainly has served well for the the for the residents of downtown and the population in the city just in general in addition he started a lot of public art aspects which are continued today he was really the first one to get going with decorative of bike racks downtown at all his projects uh he's also done that mural there at the Artisan as well as one of the Dyas building and on the dyus building on the Broadway side you see that nice artistic piece of a ladder you know with people climbing up the ladder so Joe has added a lot to the Ambiance of downtown he's also recently done the nice Lighting on Broadway that kind of gives a beautiful Ambiance downtown when you come to see that lighting which we also trying to uh add to it as we go through so uh he also has done some nice Partnerships with the city he was the major substantial contributor contribution toward getting utilities Underground on Douglas Avenue you know if you remember back in the day we had overhead there on Douglas he also provided easement to the city so we could do that angle parking in front of Douglas so these are just a few of the things that uh he has really helped uh create and benefited the downtown in general I know he's here he I don't think he likes all this recognition but I thought was important for me to mention that with this request for uh his deceased dad for the John calakas Park so in closing uh Mr kakas has built some high quality projects downtown we look very look forward very much to working with him on the new Gateway project uh he certainly has uh mentioned he still wants to do a boutique hotel and kind of a mixed use project this is uh in conjunction with our downtown eastn plan you know we're getting Skinner started all these other good things are happening and he's appr proven developer and uh I wanted to go ahead and and and mention that also i' be happy to answer any questions that you might have I have been working very closely with City attorney uh Chen Callen who's really helped put all this together so I wanted to mention that and of course city manager Jennifer Bramley be happy to answer any questions okay questions I'll start with you Jeff thank thank you I guess one just for my own clarification what is what is the vote is the vote we having two votes on this item no I'm sorry let me clarify that I I do see in the St Staffing thank you for bringing up commissioner it is just well I guess two in a way yes acceptance of his obligation to move over to the Jernigan property and then what the commission wants relative to naming of the park so I guess yes there is two steps two okay uh when it comes do we it's called currently it's called the Jernigan track uh just the name of the of Prior property owner from the past that's the only semence to that yes okay yeah it doesn't have any historical significance no there's none just for a long time and and so I why was it named why was it named the Jernigan track uh it's not named any shap perform strictly a staff uh thing that's what he does I'm sorry I said that's what you do you you grab a name that used to be there and that's what you always call it it's like the Baptist Church lot right it's strictly just a staff description that's all based on a prior property owner okay we don't have any members of the jurnigan family that we're aware of in Den Eden or the proximity no not aware of any historical tying along those lines nor any contact for years okay thank you that's all I have commissioner Walker um no I don't have any questions vice mayor uh my only question is um what would be the effective date of the transfer we are looking at a closing of October 1st we've been working closely with u and and Jen's colleague up in tasse Mr Mark Johnson he's already prepared u a lot of the work moving forward with title commitments and things of that nature and this development agreement is signed by Mr calakas so I I think uh in talking with with with Jen Callen we still feel that October 1st date is a date that we can make happen and we want that to occur before there's deliberation on termination of that development agreement the other thing I was going to ask you is when the this original um development agreement was being formed um I know there was a lot of desire for that space to stay Parkland um by the Boy Scouts by the town homes close by lot of interest in the tree could this have gone a different way had Mr kakas Been A different kind of person that didn't value some of these things I I guess it's possible I you know yes the Boy Scouts really want to see it the Wellington town homes in fact we have a meeting with the Boy Scouts next week but uh I guess it could have gone some different direction than than it has right okay no that's all that's my only questions commissioner D thank you mayor I'm responding to both subjects is that correct yeah I think it's yes I think it's it's one to satisfy uh the obligation that currently in place this property needs to be accepted by the city as as Parkland and then the other item is his request so I believe I understand both um but I would like to ask you would you please comment about any guidance that the city may be providing us as it relates to the second issue and that is the naming of the parks Vince can you you have a better handle on that than I do we have we have a policy and naming yeah Park naming policy or building naming policy yes I think according to Vince I don't think that was included in our staffing no it was not yeah we we yes we do have a naming policy of public property and two of the four items on that are significant contribution to the community or significant financial amount monetary contribution those are two two of the four there are two others I just don't have the policy with me thank you Vince so there's nothing that's preventing us from doing this the qualifications are there according to our current naming rights correct thank you those that's the that's the only question that I had not question but comment so that people could hear their response to that sure shl the only question I have that frankly I hadn't thought of before but I do believe that this in the original project um Joe feel free to answer I think this was part of our Parkland dedication it yes it was Mr CAC has got the benefit of some transfer development rights on the property this was going to be part of meeting that Park dedication under the prior project and prior development agreement and so then how does it affect the next project well if he if he's looking at a boutique hotel uh and commercial there's no Parkman dedication if he's doing some type of Apartments he will have to meet that Parkland dedication again okay so this so this doesn't apply a second no I talked to a City attorney right before the meeting and this is a clean slate yeah so if he decides to do something there'll be something in addition too okay question thank you all right anybody from the public wish to come forward and speak to this item all right seeing or hearing none oh come on down Joe welcome good evening name and address for the record please Joe kikas want of us to drive den needen um I figured I should tell you a little bit of a story uh how this all evolved for you know probably five years ago um the Gateway project uh was comprised of properties owned by the city and property that I my wife and I owned uh when we enter the development agreement I realized very quickly that I'm not a developer because I didn't fully understand the impact of a development agreement and um we entered the development agreement had a certain amount of units in the design already and then recognized that with the Jernigan tract we could transfer density over to the Gateway already approved and designed project um I directed the architect to take large two- bedroom units and make two one-bedroom units uh um which violated the originally executed development agreement because that increased the density to 90 Apartments um I didn't realize that to amend a development agreement we had to go back here you know LPA to commission meetings pay the $5,000 fee which I think Bob covered half of it and we got the approvals that pushed us to a point where um the economy shifted obviously and costs went up um postco and which is kind of what impacted the project and the viability of the project we did however build the surge Center which is on the corner um of Skinner and Milwaukee and the residents of the of Wellington Court were very supportive of the surge Center but very concerned about what would happen with the jurnigan track and I committed to them that it will always be a park um and that's why we're here because frankly as Bob said the Park land fees the credits um may or may not come into play with how we're visioning the property um but I committed to them that we were going to keep this a park um I could have proposed as part of the termination of the development agreement to return the density to the jurnigan track um I mean there's a lot of things that could have happened that could have gotten good or bad City attorney probably has different opinions um but that's fine my commitment to the will Wellington core people was to ensure that that's a park um since I paid for it to the city at an appraised value from an appraiser that the city retained and I really don't have any use for the Parkland fee credits I said well in the least Bob you know the reason that you know my entire family you know probably 32 people if you add all the kids and grandkids and great grandkids live you know in denan and at least in pelis County because my father moved here in the80s and uh early 80s and you know it was something that I felt would be a proper recognition since he passed um we submitted for the termination of the development agreement we discussed the the in the development agreement oh sorry okay in in the development agreement it says that I was supposed to deed the property over immediately upon the density transfer again not knowing exactly how to be a good developer that was silly because if I dated the property over I still you know I was going to use it as a staging area during construction ction um and that wouldn't have worked out um so I think a I'm going to be much more careful with any future development agreements but B I think this is great for the community um we had the property appraised uh I'm going to have you know take a ride off for the donation um I love that it's going to be in my father's memory and and he will be kind of Remembered in the community forever because he loved this town more than anything and I appreciate Bob and the City attorney and everybody else and the city manager for working through this as far as the future of the Gateway we're still very committed to the Gateway my wife and I were currently building a boutique hotel smaller one much smaller in Tarpon Springs um the construction of it is CLT cross laminated Timber which is really cool a lot of exposed Lum Lumber you know much more environmentally friendly than typical construction not fully understood by building departments and insurance companies cuz it is all wood um but it's pretty cool product um we're working with the architect on that property to design a more scaled down Gateway project that would include a boutique hotel retail and if I can fit Apartments I I would like to have more Apartments there um but it definitely won't be of the same scale as the original Gateway not cuz I'm against scale but I think it just became too overwhelming of a project financially elevated pool decks that cost a million and a half bucks um were just a kind of it it became much more difficult to manage and to prove financially viable convention space and meeting space yeah we definitely need 250 seated meeting space I'm looking at you buddy I know I know okay any questions any questions for Joe all right thank you okay I already asked um okay so what I need is a motion we'll do two different votes I need a motion to accept the property so move second excuse me um and with that motion um to accept the property can we just clarify in the motion that it's Alo also authorizing the city manager or mayor to execute any documents to effectuate the closing doesn't that normally happen automatically I mean I sign I amend my motion well thank you okay okay vice mayor fry and commissioner torga thank you um and we'll do the second vote on the name any final comments on that or you want to wait until we do the name no I don't have any of comments I mean this is just part of uh you know a technicality in a lot of ways so we're we're just accepting this property over and that's how the agreement read anybody else no comments I just just one all you know this just makes perfect business sense from a density perspective it uh you know it's this is really good for the city so I'm I'm all in favor of it okay uh roll call vote please commissioner Walker hi commissioner gal I commissioner torga I vice mayor fry hi mayor Bowski I that motion passes unanimously and then can I have a motion to rename Jour jurnigan track to the John calakas Memorial move second okay vice mayor frainy and commissioner Walker any questions from anybody anybody from the public wish to speak to this okay um any final comments yep absolutely um no I mean I looked at this as being kind of different really is different because you know we part of the agreement was to accept this property um and naming is a whole separate issue and of course naming things in deden is a big deal it's a huge deal and I think that's an important part of our job to make sure that you know we we have a process with that we have a policy with that and and as I walk through this um you know there was a part of me that just wanted to keep them separate not make it seem like it's together um but I I really um work through the process piece to feel good about it and I have to say I I think that it makes sense and a couple reasons um I do believe the Gateway project could have gone a lot of different ways and there was a lot of concern about that piece of property staying Green Space and um and obviously you know we wanted to get our main goal was to get that Gateway piece developed unfortunately that piece didn't work out um but you know the developer could have gone a lot of different ways on that and I I didn't even realize that you had kind of made that guarantee um gave your word to the Wellington uh people the residents and and again I've always known you to keep your word and I think that it could have been different things so again there's there's one but also when you look at the contributions um you know some people say oh Joe gets everything he wants well no Joe do you think you get everything you want no you do not but you are a good developer and you've done a lot of good things in this community I say Anna as well because you're a team in a lot of ways to me and um but you know the Purple Heart Park was a straight out donation period no there were no ties to that it was a straight out donation to do the right thing it's a great entryway to our city it and you know we have the annual Purple Heart City uh event there it's great it just gives a space for people to be and so and what a great contribution public art downtown lighting that I hope someday the city is going to catch up to I keep pushing it Joe um and Anna and uh of course we all know Nature's Food Patch we want at a grocery store forever you guys finally made it happen and I think you got creative on trying to get them here and incentivize them to be here um so I um I think that you your company your family have added a lot to this community and it seems like this part Park may never have even happened had it not been for the involvement and the commitment to the community so I think uh to honor your father seems very appropriate and I'm I'm in favor of it okay uh commissioner Walker you know if you look up the definition of public public private partnership you're going to see an example of the cookaka influence on benedon and uh you know um I I'm going to use the example of the Purple Heart Park as well because I just felt that that was a very there was remarkable gift and uh you know when you start looking at the the criteria of the process and you know I'm I'm a process guy but uh you know there is no question about the contribution to the city of den Eden there is no question about the monetary contribution that cookaka family has made um so I I just fully fully fully support this thank you commissioner thank you mayor um I'll be honest Joe I do struggle with this just a little bit uh only because I struggle with naming things after people just in general why this person I because the community is just full of people who've done wonderful things and it's only um certain few not by any I don't mean anything negative by that but it's we only have a few things to name things um but a community full of people who do wonderful things um but I can't deny what you've also given to the community and um purle heart Park and uh everything you've done with the Artisan you really looked at that with what does this downtown need not necessarily what's in this development for me and uh that's greatly greatly appreciated and so it's always through those lens I I wish more developers look through U really see the community for what it is and and you you do your best to do that um so I am in support of this but I just wanted to at least acknowledge um struggling a little bit okay commissioner Tonga thank you I am comfortable with this and the recognition is well understood thank you I'm also comfortable and appreciative of um everything the entire cookaka family has done for our community um and hope that your family is pleased okay roll call vote please commissioner cha hi commissioner gal hi I commissioner Walker I vice mayor fry I mayor Bowski I and that motion passes unanimously thank you guys thank you Joe okay um next we have the panel's County Sheriff's Office 20 fiscal year 25 annual addendum to the contract um at a total cost of uh 5,713 th000 in change Teresa good evening again commission uh Teresa Smalling director of HR and risk management for the city as well as the city's liaison to the penel county sheriff's office as you know the Sheriff's Office serves as the city's Police Department in effect by uh providing law enforcement services to the city uh the annual addendum as you noted is at just over $5.7 million which is uh a little over 7% higher than the prior year and this is due to the increased cost for Deputy uh just to point out a a few things in the contract uh the amount of contracted Personnel remain the same and it also includes 27 school crossing guards uh the city has five community policing deputies uh two of which are uh assigned to traffic enforcement and uh the amount of of the the Sheriff's Office provides special events uh secondary Employment Services of 680 hours per year as well as uh the law enforcement services that uh comes with the the contract uh the city is also obligated to uh pay uh Safe Harbor $10,000 each year which is Safe Harbor is the city's uh divver diversion program uh it's an alternative to uh putting people in jail it sort of um helps them to try to you know get back on their feet uh and that's pretty much the the total um I'm happy to take any questions that you may have okay um ice mayor questions uh just one and that is I'm assuming this does not include the extra coverage we might well we are going to get for the late hours um on you know during season and late at night we yes we are we are still working towards that uh whether it will be an existing Deputy with which within that we're already paying for or we will have an additional Deputy that will serve that um purpose as set out by the city manager the city manager appeared on screen she doesn't have a grandbaby in her hands but uh did you want to add anything to that Jennifer I do thank you vice mayor and Teresa really did cover it adequately but we did have a meeting scheduled with Captain Jackson he had to cancel it because the governor was in town and obviously the Sheriff's Office was very busy providing protection um but Teresa is correct I discussed whether or not we wouldn't need additional Personnel order to provide that coverage Captain Jackson felt um that that we would not that we've be able to to to provide that service within the the you know the primaries of the Personnel that we have right now so uh it is definitely number one on our on our Hip Parade with Katherine Jackson and I should have a report for you um on who what where why when uh in October on that and I know this serious matter but where is the baby just kidding okay the baby has gone to sleep because she's a baby okay our city manager is visiting her new grandbaby if you don't know that so that's why she's zooming in so thank you I don't have any other questions commissioner Toro any questions uh yes just a brief one um I was at a uh Florida Le of cities meeting um last year and I had spoken with someone and they were talking about paying for the school guards and then I was asked a question again uh this spring about that same same subject matter and just out of curiosity would you mind just uh just touching bases with with with me on that on that concept we pay for the school guards do we pay for the school crossing guard Crossings right but the I I'm not sure you meant the special resource officers no no no keep going the C the we um 27 school crossing guards are included in our contract and and so when how long have we paid for that or is that is that normal is that common amongst the uh the other fora municipalities as far as I know we actually had as many as 36 at one point I believe it was but um the Sheriff's Office did a audit of all our Crossings our school crossing areas and were able to um you know decrease number because of usage but that is folded into the the contract with the the Sheriff's Office and that is a common a common practice I I would think so if you're using crossing guards you know if you're not using them then you probably wouldn't pay for them yeah we've I've been here from the beginning from the beginning yep Jennifer so um in in regards to commissioner tra question uh both of the prior cities I work for the cities did pay for the crossing guards it seems more logical that the school board would but I think the theory is that they're crossing the city's residents the children of the city's residents to get to school but I don't know about all the cities in Florida but it is a a common practice for the city's municipalities to pay for crossing guards it was more a point of curiosity and seeing how that really worked and and why and so wherever the cost has been landed uh I guess we been covering with that and and I understand the crossing of our uh of our streets and our roads although sometimes they are County Roads so yes thank you that's all I had commissioner all my questions have been asked and answered thank you commissioner uh no questions I don't have any questions either anybody from the public wishes come forward and speak to this item senior hearing men um can I have a motion to approve the uh 2025 pels County Sheriff's contracts moved second vice mayor fry and commissioner Toro any final comments I do um I do I just want to say Obviously 7% increase we'd like it to be better but the reason it's not is because of Labor and we know that because that's one of the driving forces for our budget 60% labor and um and of course it's a lot for the sheriff and we know that's a highly competitive area just like our firefighters are in some of our our other areas um so um so to me it's reasonable and um I always look at this budget and I always like to remind everybody because we're 25 plus years into this agreement with Contracting with penal County Sheriff's Office and at approximately at $2 million savings plus uh per year uh versus our Police Department which was very good but again it's the gift that keeps on giving our I recently checked our millage and back before when we had a police department it was 5 350 millage and we continue to be at a lower F 41345 so over a full Mill less and a lot of those savings came from creating this great partnership um with the sheriff's department and they continue to do good service and um and it continues to be great for our taxpayers so thank you okay commissioner tundo any final comments uh I just make a quick comment uh and and I appreciate the working relationship we have with the with the sheriff's office I'm very pleased that the north division is here in Duneden um and that makes me very very happy and I appreciate the sheriff's effort with the Safe Harbor and his continuation of that and there is there is a cost to that and and he does support that very strongly so thank you thank you any thank you mayor just basically did of what everybody else is done they provide good service it's reflected highly in our survey every time time we ask the residents about their safety and what they do so I'm fine with everything I guess the only comment that I would make would be about the school crossing guards and that right I think at least when I was in Elementary School uh we had our own safety patrols right so the students were able to do that and they were able to do that because of traffic levels and speeds and so for what we're paying now that's the fee or that's what we want as a community uh to drive fast and uh have wider streets and higher U speed limits and so if we're uncomfortable with crossing guards we think that's expensive then we need to rethink the way we travel and be more more multimodal and slower traffic so that's my comment okay commissioner walker uh no my my comments have already been made what' you say my comments have already been made yeah mine too um roll call vote please commissioner all commissioner gal hi commissioner T vice mayor fry I mayor Bowski I and that motion passes unanimously thank you thank you Teresa okay uh we will go to the review of a request to modify and extend the freebie pilot program by an additional 90 days the purpose of the extension is to test a flex program and examine the results to assure the most optimal program mix going forward the 3month extension is at a cost of 48,000 and change George and Kathy mayor vice mayor very quickly I'll just I'm going to turn this over to project man manager Kathy gmer has been working very hard on this and we'll be making the presentation to you and if you have questions afterwards of course we'll all be here to answer those questions thank you Kath thank you thanks for having us mayor vice mayor commission City attorney assistant city manager thank you I'm Kathy gader I'm the project manager and Community Development for the city for this project uh with me I have Jason Spiegel he's um with B free freebie uh a little bit about this uh 3mon proposed it's a pilot Flex program it will start in a few days and end December 22nd 2024 um we're doing this 3-month pilot program um for a few reasons one of them is we'll be able to have full data for full 12 months um to better analyze ridership and if a flex program would be more beneficial to the city than a straight route program um So within this Flex program if there are Geo fencing boundaries and and they run between St Christopher Keen Road Union Street and Alt 19 and that's a s area swap so to speak and there are about 9,500 residents that live within that area so um just on the straight route side it would be 1100 residents that could be affected by just having a straight route um right now where if we if you approve this um with this Geo fencing area area resident increases by about 8,400 people that may be able to use that may want to use this service also within this 3month time period since the contract started last November um and the new contract will end at the end of this month that three-month period also includes five special events that freebie was able to um give ridership to our residents and tourists and we'll be able to compare those five special events um between now between last year and this year and just see if that GE fencing um is more beneficial to this service lastly a few months ago the city manager uh George Kenny the community development director and myself met with Bob and Tiffany powder the business owners of local Tiki rides um this they we talked about their business plan and um what their business model looks like there are uh a few that I'll go over today but you have a full list in your packet um the local Tiki rides ridership they drop off and pick up throughout the entire city while freebie is now in this geofence area that they do not go all over the city that just stay in that 7 Mile area while the local Pik rides when someone wants a ride with them they recall and make reservations while freebie You Can Get It On Demand you can call their offices for to reserve a ride or you could wave down the gym one of the gems that you see on the street um local TI ride's vehicle is gas powered while the freebie gems are electric and the local tiq rise hours are uh Friday night all day Saturday while freebie is Thursday through Sunday so both these services that we found they complement each other and they work really well together so so we're also do a comparison with the ridership of this 3-month period with um we'll use the local titig rides data and we'll compare the ridership with this new proposed contract if approved to see if there's any um differences in the business model so I'm going to turn it over to Jason who's going to go over the the Geo fencing idea and thank you very much good evening everybody uh Jason Spiegel managing partner at freebie and just really to piggyback off what she said um you know again we we launched this during the peak uh season here within denan uh it was very successful in operating the route within downtown there we had really really great ridership but once we saw spring training end and summertime come in here um you know again not as populated within the downtown there how do we drive ridership how do we maximize the value to you guys as the city as the residents the local businesses there so the idea behind this is a recommendation um and again we can operate any way that you guys want to put forward here but the way that we believe we can drive ridership during the off peak season is to really help get residents that live just right outside the downtown area to and from the downtown to help the local businesses um spend some more money out you know going out to uh to dinner there um providing that connectivity and then again going hand inand with the goals that you guys have set forth where you want to really try to make downtown to need in a place where you don't have to come in and use a car there so this would allow we'd be able to collect a lot of data from the resident side of if they're using this service to come into downtown they're not driving their vehicle here and it's creating really great habits but really I think the ultimate kind of uh you know recommendation here is based on just the slow season here within the off season um during peak season I think you can go back to a a full fixed route within you know obviously the downtown area but I do believe that this will maximize on the ridership it will maximize on the goals that you guys have set forth during the offseason so again that's why we want to run this um you know for the next 60 90 days here as we come into season um you guys will get some really great data and I think the data that you guys are going to see is that the ridership is going to be equal or more than what we had during the peak season there and operating in this kind of flex manner so again that's really the the basis behind this recommendation and um really just how it would work um you know we have the this inner Zone which is the blue area with on the map there the red area is kind of the residential neighborhood and you either have to start your ride or end your ride within the downtown court to be able to use the service there um if nobody's uh on a call the vehicles will stay on route as they currently have been um but again can deviate off that route to pick a resident up bring him into the downtown then continue along that route there but again the the biggest kind of un you know understanding of this recommendation is just it's a slower season during non- peak season here how do we help the businesses how do we help residents come downtown um frequent these businesses here and we believe that this would be a really great method in in being able to do that um I know they also met again one of the big concerns is is this going to compete with the tiki rides and I think if you look at the heat map that they provided they don't do any rides in downtown they don't pick up people in downtown they don't drop off many people in downtown there so they're going to work in really a complimentary aspect there um but again I think at the end of the day the goal is how do we maximize value for you guys how do we maximize value to the residents and also the local businesses here that again could have have some struggles during kind of the off peak months but again that's the basis it's a recommendation we we can operate operate this any way that you'd like but I think there's a lot of benefits on trying this Flex program right before we get get into the peak season there and again uh here to answer any questions that you guys may have okay thank you commissioner gal questions thank you mayor we are getting closer and that excites me a little bit uh how did you you might have said it and I and I missed it how did you determine your geofence area sure so because you missed my neighborhood and so again we can we can make the geofence too y so we have two vehicles right to be able to oper let's say we did the entire Municipal boundary of denen you just wouldn't be able to provide a quality service there so the the idea here was to start within a geofence area that we can still provide that great quality of service where you're not waiting more than 10 15 minutes to be able to get picked up there can it be extended a little bit absolutely but again we didn't want to go too crazy with the size of that Geo fence so that when people are requesting rides that it's going to take 30 40 50 minutes to get picked up and again during off peak season right now we're operating with two vehicles in set of three so we wanted to kind of keep it as tight as possible but again based on any of your recommendations we can expand that Geo fence we can contract that Geo fence um whatever makes sense but the the idea was still to provide a high quality of service while meeting the goals that you guys have set forth and I and I do respect that but I think we are missing some really valuable neighborhoods that um and especially it is the the farther away you get from the downtown core the more light you are to drive your car mhm and and so I still think we are missing out on opportunities to encourage residents to leave their cars at home um so we're still missing that a little bit with the geofence the way it is uh what is if I live in the geofence area and if I understand this correctly right I can give you guys a call or hit you up on on the app and you'll come pick me up and bring me downtown and so what is if I'm a resident how do I know that that service exists yeah we're gonna have to do we're gonna have to do a big pushing a marketing push on this and that's and do you have that in place uh it's we have a plan in place ready to go as soon as you guys provide an approval on this uh the goal would be able to start this next weekend um and again it will continue to operate along the Route as people start to get you know again educated on this kind of new service to try it out hey we're trying this for a few months we want to help you get down downtown you don't have to use a car we want you to come spend money at your local businesses here but yes we we do have a marketing plan for that um both on the ground here um digitally and then obviously working with Sue and her team um to get the messaging out there okay and unless I read it wrong I was uh on the app the other day and I really didn't see anything about this so right the the app isn't set up for this yet correct yeah you don't have any of the geofence all you can see is the route right now and and so is that set to go though in the background is is it a matter of flipping the switch correct or okay so it's it's kind of already there correct yeah for us that's that's turning it on turning it off um and again depending on you know obviously the success of it you might run the fixed route during the peak season because again we knew that was successful we know there's a lot of people in downtown but we also have data now to to say that after spring training's over and you know obviously summertime is coming how do we continue to maximize the value and especially for the residents and the businesses there um so yes we have the ability to turn that on and off um based on again the direction that you guys provide actually I think the high season is the better route to go with this not the fixed route because we have so much traffic already downtown this is a you know when it's empty downtown less likely that PE people will use you they'll just drive into town um so summer months will be heavier for car traffic my thought um I know at the beginning when we we talked with you guys and brought you on pilot program from my understanding the intent was all this was to get the businesses to pay for it through advertising and it wouldn't be that the city the taxpayers wouldn't be taking the burden of this and so far I don't see that so are are we still working on some sort of plan to encourage the businesses to advertise with you all to so two parts we we do provide free advertising for the local businesses within the mobile app there um we did provide I think a recommendation at one of the last couple meetings to be able to have advertising on the vehicles that would come in to subsidize uh the program but we have never received direction to be able to do that okay I think you guys had elected to keep the vehicles branded for the city there um you also have the ability as well to to charge a fair you know as a per passenger as well if that's something you wanted to look at as well to help continue to subsidize we also talked about grants which um there is a grant out there that we helped fill out the application and um soon as that submission is ready or the application's open um you guys would be able to apply for that Grant as well that could cover 50% of all the costs thank you I think Jennifer wants to speak hi is that your thank you hello um thank you mayor and Comm um I I hear you 100% the goal is to have eventually um for this program to be self- sustaining also I think that we need to look at some uh grants that are available we've been talking to freeb quite a bit about grants that are available for this type of transportation that will be you know one of the first tasks that we're looking for our our grants writer to uh to accomplish so I I really would like to see this obviously not not paid for by the tax fairs and we're going to push hard to toward that goal moving forward I think the first thing is we want to make sure you know the type of service that works when it works how it works and then and then push for um an alternate form of funding than then tax sure I like how you have your hand raised on the screen that's very sweet very polite of you thank you thank you Jennifer very much and I and I guess for me this whole thing for me is to reduce the number of cars and so I I feel an extra burden when we're paying for this and we're talking about paying for a parking garage and so it seems to me what direction does the city want to go questions questions questions question questions no more questions I'll preach in a minute okay thank you questions yes thank you um so I I've said this in the past uh I have not been in favor of an on- demand service if it was going to detract from our local business and uh I'm encouraged by the fact that at least Tiki rides was allowed to be part of this discussion but could I get a little bit more detail on how this uh business model comparison was developed um you know I the data I know that there was Data submitted um by both companies um was there actual physical meeting where the owners of Tikki ride were there did they provide you feedback on this George uh commissioner yes sir we we actually had a sit down meeting it was myself the city manager and the two co-owners of he rides um the breakdown of the different models is in your packet as an exhibit and I don't recall all the particular details um the the tiki ride Service uh kind of serves uh the way I understood it more more people uh so more group kind of um excursions versus the kind of single excursions that I think that this might serve um when we looked at their heat map where they were offering service for the most part on those particular days that were discussed um they really were not in conflict with what we were doing from a fixed route perspective for sure and even as we looked at this Flex system and this particular Geo fenced area we didn't see any overlap there either we thought it we as was discussed we thought it was kind of a complimentary service so um we're pretty comfortable with the fact that um we're not um working against each other here that we're working some you know some some together together on this on this particular project city manager you have your hand raised I do I do being polite yeah I thought we had a good meeting with t rides and commissioner Walker they weren't entirely satisfied and overjoy um obviously you know they they are a form of transportation that's similar but but in many ways different in terms of as Geor said their service is a little bit more limited fre it's only a Friday and Saturday iall is that right I believe that's I believe that's corre that's correct it's Friday evening and all day Saturday Saturday they're gas powered and obviously we're electric um Power um they when we were looking at the geens was very interesting because as as Kathy already mentioned they were really outside that geofence but there were some some rides that they were picking up inside the Geo fence as well so we had agreed that we could we could work together to compliment each other uh as best we can but they really are different types of Transportation in terms of what it is they provide uh and how they provide they did provide a copy of their budget and um I didn't feel was appropriate to to submit that to the public record um uh they were very open and transparent we were grateful for the for the meeting I hope that they were as well we kind of exchanged information they they you know as as you know Walker they purchased T rides from the original owners um who who initiated of the program in the need um it is kind of a side GI for them it's it's my understanding is what they said there two couples that run the T rides um together one one day one another day so um you know it it's not it is it is we kind of sharing that local business but but they were clear that it's not going to be all end all for them um in in terms of service that they're providing so we did meet with them as you requested that we would do it was meeting here at City Hall and and a good exchange of information and the only other thing I'd very quickly add was that Services also works on reservations and often almost like a charter service on occasion so that pulls that vehicle out of operation for those Charter operations so you actually don't have service at all during those reservation periods for T yes good point okay yeah well thanks for that um the you know understanding this is just a pilot program at this point um what's what's how what's the next step here it was what what kind of data are we looking for to bring this back to the commission and I'm assuming we will be making a decision on whether we carry this forward at some point but uh I'm curious as to what the next steps are um yeah I I think that the most important thing is that we'll have a full year data um we'll have a full year data of peak season non peak season when the fix route worked great and then also during these kind of off off seon months you know when when was the ridership blow during that fix route how are we able to drive much higher ridership with this more type of flex system is it keeping residents not not having to take their car into downtown there I think there's a lot of great data points you're going to be able to see from this that will be presented you know within the 60 to 90 days so that you can make a long-term decision based on the data that we're going to be able to collect well and yeah I appreciate that that's I think you told us that before um the the thing I'm interested in here is the on demand data because I would hope that once we collect the data on this particular segment of the pilot program that we are you know we we get feedback from all the parties and that that's what I would would hope would occur and maybe you can confirm for staff whether yeah I think that's right commissioner we you know the idea here is we'll have the full year but we'll also have that off peak uh ridership numbers for comparison purposes so we already know what the off peak is as a fixed route now we'll be able to compare that to the flex route and we can see how many vehicles we're bringing in or out of the down non- vehicles that we're bringing riders that we're bringing in and out of downtown without their vehicles the other thing we'll bring to you obviously is not only a recommendation on moving forward uh which could be any combination of things once we once we have an opportunity to analyze that data we're going to bring you costs as well what it's going to cost to run that service at that recommended level so we'll we'll be that's what we hope to bring back to you within a 3 to four month time frame at this point okay thank you okay commissioner or vice mayor okay um so um two vehicles right two vehicles so what if you're inundated do that just the length of time people will wait will just be what it is that's correct so when somebody requests arve with this new system they'll get an automatic ETA so they'll know up front all right this is all right I'm going to be picked up in five minutes 10 minutes 15 minutes or wow it's a really busy uh hour of the day here a lot of people are using it's 20 30 minutes and they'll have that decision to say all right I'm going to use this service or use another kind of means of Mobility there um so yes the the goal is to Pilot it with the two vehicles keep cost status quo um and use this data to obviously move forward with the next year of what a recommendation could look like anything EXT EXT ra then like say for the the the boat parade in December or the holiday parade downtown in December any increased vehicles for that thinking well you guys have the ability to increase whenever you want that would obviously be an added cost so um we can bring in a few vehicles for these you know events these parades um obviously we've worked all year with your team on servicing the events which has you know been a big value ad and you know we're open to help you guys in any way that you um deem necessary that's all always our hot spot our special events so you know you'd hate to just get completely clogged and people say that doesn't work I'm never trying it again so 100% and maybe during those special events that from staff perspective maybe during special events you operate a little bit differently depending on the event right and the street closings okay um and and I have to say commissioner G I agree with you on expanding the geofence oh and now you're leaving okay because I do think um um you know but baby steps baby steps I know that you know when I couldn't drive for eight weeks because of my wrists and the broken wrist um I beg Boral and stole to get him to take me to my house but it's outside the Geo fence uh they took me and it was great I mean it's it's I just think it will get people to leave their their cars at home um and um and I also you know I think it's good we're getting data now but I mean I already feel like we're going to want data in the peak season as well but um so questions that's all I have questions commissioner twanga I'm going to have to throw a few comments in here you've got to keep with the questions their questions yes please please so well let me just start off with that that I've have I've known Jason for quite a quite a period of time because I was very interested in the in City part of this I call this the in city transportation for us how many other how many other municipalities or or areas use this as an in city transportation and this is not new so yeah for us in Florida we provide the on demand service for 42 different cities so we keep talking about data we're going to need data we're going to need data we're going to need data um I'm dated out on this deal uh for me for me commissioner gal made a comment I have said before uh if you want to compare whether we should have a parking garage or this well I'll take the parking garage all the money that the parking garage will cost us this is not a question for you as a comment and then I'm going to come back with a question for you um and and and I'll provide the Ser I'll provide the the funds for the service for the city of dun Eden question please yes I said I was going to do that and I think we need to be reminded of that because everybody keeps talking about they're waiting for data um there's data we have data we have data and what happens in other places how many other places have spent this much time collecting data before they actually put something into effect difficult question for you and I apologize for asking you in front of everybody here but but um give me just give me a rough idea yeah I would say majority of uh the cities have started off as an ond demand service um and you know based on the data that we do collect um I think it's about 60 or 70% of them have expanded service based on the success uccess uh of the on demand system in terms of ridership customer feedback and the economic impact that's had within their commercial corridors so I'm just going to apply I don't want to ask the question do you think that we're going about this in the right direction and so but but please don't answer that but I'd like to ask staff that taken so long with this I can't believe it I mean I personally can't believe this um I don't like to spend money everyone knows that but if this service can provide What the residents need here I think there's a tremendous value for it of for it for the service whether this data is going to really significantly provide the the information that we that we we need to have we're paying $48,000 now in essence to provide a small amount of people this this uh this service and it's in an effort to collect data um again as someone said we have far away places to go to in addition to where this is and are we testing that at this point and when will we say we need more data to do that so we're suggesting this is it it's the the off peak ridership has just been a little bit lower than expected so to kind of justify um a a year round service we we' really really like to see the numbers coming off of this Flex program to see if we're if we're picking up ridership as a result which we believe we will but we we really kind of want to see the numbers and so that we can offer you you all the commission the best recommendation moving forward it I know I know commissioner just just bear with us for a couple more months and we'll you know we'll we'll bring you a a pretty Rob hopefully a robust package and recommendation so I'll make this another question do you believe that we need to spend this much time collecting this data I'm very flat ass I believe anecdotally that a flex service is needed to to gain the ridership that we think we need to support the program but I think it's just fair to everybody to actually see it unfold in in in in real time so I I think we'll get that that feedback but we we we feel more comfortable if we saw those numbers um then can come forward to you with a positive recommendation to say yeah the flex program works in off peak time at off peak hours because the fix route piece if it's not generating the ridership we had hoped it would and and quite frankly this also gives us an opportunity to see we'll be able to get a detailed count of who who's using it in the Geo Fen area so we'll know how many cars exactly how many cars are not coming into the downtown as a result of this of this three month exercise so we're going to get a really good feel for who's really not bringing a car into the downtown then so this $48,000 will probably end the testing it the testing will end after this yes thank you that it may I add mayor sure so commissioner Tonga I I understand um your frustration because it has taken a long time and I think that one of the reasons um why we want to to continue the pilot program is because as Jason had said when we started in season on the fixed route it was as you recall the ridership was was great I mean I think we broke records with the ridership we were ecstatic about where we were with it and then during the course of the summer time time that fixed route um just kind of wilted on the vine and so um we wanted to find out whether or not if we go to an on demand um system or program we could address that that summer time issue and whether or not we would still be accomplishing in the peak season what we did with fixed route it stays on a fixed route and then it's called off when um when when it's needed somewhere else and so um I think that what we're really trying to do is is rightsize the freebie program so that it's it's of most benefit to not only our visitors which is you know they're the ones using it on season but to our residents as well in the offseason and to fundamentally decrease the number of of vehicles on the roadway and and you know I recall commissioner you and I talking about an on demand system years ago um and you had wanted to see it Citywide and I think that that eventually we could grow this program specifically we get grants as well because typically you grants are awarded when you grow a program like this um you know throughout the city I think that there's a future for the program I think first of all we need to make sure that we have uh just kind of the right Cadence for um you know freeb it you know because it's like we're two different we're two different cities in season and out out of SE season so um I'll acknowledge your frustration how long it's taken and and and support George when he says this is the last agendum that will be for the agreement thank you thank you for your comment anything else commissioner Taro no thank you okay I meant no thank you um wouldn't you also say though that at some point we have had some disagreements up here as to whether we want a fixed route or on demand service and by doing this test it can try to answer some of those questions correct absolutely May plus it gives you it gives you both so you're stay Comfort level is for that reason too because we are not all rowing in the same direction I think that's fair y okay okay I have plenty of comments but no more questions um anybody from the public wish to come forward and speak to I'm I'm just going to comment along with with commissioner TGA this seems like the John shine 27 a this seems like the never ending $50,000 90day trial I did some research while I was waiting on everyone we have electric bikes electric scooters golf carts we also have the option of using something called lime and bird and goex which are rentable scooters and bikes we also have rentable bikes here there's also um Tiki rides of course but PSTA Jolly Trolley the clear waterer Ferry and I don't know if you've ever used this it's called Uber and lifts sorry I'm not laughing at you I'm laughing with you thank you um there's a lot of options out here guys and you keep writing a $50,000 check for 90 days after 90 days after 90 days I'm sure he's a great guy and those golf carts those big golf carts are really cool but if you want to get from your house you're going to get an Uber or a lift or electric scooter I mean there's tons of options and in the future you're going to have autonomous vehicles who they going to do that but that's only 3 to 5 years away way I don't know what you're doing with this $50,000 unlimited forever 90day pilot that's all I have to say next come on now hello everybody my name is uh Nancy Ellen hail I reside at 509 Ashley Drive here in denen I will make this brief but I want to First say that the number of comments tonight and information that we' all heard has been extremely interesting and beneficial and it should make everyone's job a little easier I just want to say that I have been up here before speaking on behalf of this really positive freebie impact that we've had on danen including I spoke before uh for the businesses that are located at the West End of Main Street that really have been excited with freebie for bringing a lot more business their way and I just wanted to mention that however in it's people think well it's just for the old people to get around but I've seen a lot of young ones in it and they're having a great time and really getting involved with this Flex incentive it's just another positive addition to engaging and increasing ridership and I can't really say enough about the idea that how it broadens awareness to really reaching more individuals that don't have to deal with the driving and the parking and we all know that the parking is going to be most likely Limited in the near future with some new uh programs in the works the garage we hope will come to fruition but it hasn't even been built yet remember now that our busier season as we've said before is kicking off very shortly and we are realizing that this current parking situation again will only get more um difficult it's just another extension of how the transportation options are increasing while dedan remains very proactive to the good of the citizens and of course also all of our visitors and of course it's a financial investment we all understand the money involved but from all the businesses that I've been discussing this with and talking to they couldn't be happier and thinking this is a very worthwhile Endeavor to continue with the needen so I'll limit myself I'm almost done anyway so that's all I have to say but I appreciate the time thank you Ellen anyone else please give us your name and address for the record hi I'm Karen hammers 1701 Pinehurst Road um I notice the Geo fencing area is I live north of U San Christopher so I'm not going to be able to take advantage of this but I just want to offer a suggestion what if we set up um uh auxiliary parking area areas where they could come pick us up I'm thinking right up Pinehurst Road at the community center there's plenty of parking spaces there or perhaps at the high school so that if they drive outside that area they're not having to drive to every neighborhood but only one location at least then if I drive I'm not going to have to drive very far to get to a different parking spot so that I can access them and as far as the tiki service it's great except I don't usually like to go downtown on Friday and Saturday nights because it's it's a lot busier I prefer to go on week nights and right now I have to drive my car there so that would really help and I think a lot of people in my neighborhood wouldn't drive that they would take advantage of this service if it was an option for us thank you thank you anyone else why not I didn't come here for this but here I am U just real quick first of all thank you for exploring ideas um whatever they may be you don't know until try to get that um first I'm going to speak first of all I'm sorry Lenny car 2169 Cedar Drive apologize before I moved here which has been U three years now um we were tourists here for probably close to 30 years and we never took any transportation but as a tourist we still have to park here and you're you're talking about the season that we're going into which is the season that that we were here most of the time um the tourists are still going to park here and the locals the people that live up in the north part of the city now the last lady had a great idea I'll give her that um but I don't see from a citizen benefit that I'm going to get anything because even now fortunately we still have enough strength we actually like to walk through downtown and visit all the businesses or a majority of them and just window shop whatever is going on and you can't do that in the in in the freebie Loop or any other Transportation um just my thoughts on it it's not always a bad idea we did try the freebie Loop um when you go from the Draft House all the way to the other end and it's one of them really hot mogy nights certainly is a benefit but there are other modes of transportation as well um that's all I'm going to say on the matter just some citizen input thank you very much appreciate it anyone else wish to speak okay um do we want to finish this item or do we want to take a five minute break it's up to you guys if we're going to take a break good time H good time now all right we're just going to take a five minute Comfort break if you don't mind we'll be right back [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] all right so um now I'm going to come back to my colleagues is there a motion to be made can we have a motion to approve the 90day pilot so moved second okay vice mayor fry and commissioner gal okay final comments yeah um of course now I'm off my game because I'm off my game because we took a break but I'll try to get my head back in the thing well look I mean I'm all about first of all we used arpa money for this American Rescue fund money it was about you know stimulating the economy and and was a great opportunity to try to use a very small piece of these funds because because we got $19 million to to try something you know to to see if we can try to you know figure out all the ways we might solve our parking problem you know and um and we do have a parking problem so uh so how do how do we achieve that now I mean I was open to trying the Looper right and I I even though I still kiddingly I I I say to people when the mayor said oh I need to you know take the Looper from the Gateway down catinas I'm like I'm sorry I think I can make that walk not everybody can I get that but it's like I'm not sure the Looper was ever my idea of something that would be worth it in and of itself so so you know we're taking some steps here to learn because we know we have problems it's a small amount of money compared to the big amount of our problem I.E an $8 million parking garage okay and and we're talking about $48,000 here to learn about ways we might solve an issue um so I think we're taking another step into what I believe has a lot of potential which is more of on demand how this can be affordable and paid for if we actually find out interesting information that we should expand this I don't know yet but we're learning and I do think there on in an on demand type of a world we might learn a lot and again with the goal of and I tell this to people all the time you know it's it's about how do we get people people to leave their cars at home or how do we find spaces that people will really use that they'll go and bring it into town and not deal with parking um so granted there's Uber there's Lyft I get that but you know it's all in how people's habits are and that's and you know whether you like it or not you're looking for what works and that's what I'm looking for and I think this will be interesting data biggest parking problem is in season so I'm still you know when we start talking about the two different the two different uh uh cities we have seems like the bigger parking problems in in the season so again we try this and we're learning from from it but I I still am willing to stay in this game so to speak because I think we are continuing to learn for a minimal in the big picture amount of money uh about something that is a huge issue for us and um so I'm I'm in favor of it and uh and I for one I ask where the Geo you know where the Geo fence is and heck I'm close enough I can call and I can go to San Christopher an Al 19 and pick it up there and I still have a short walk home so well now you're just being mean just well your walk's a little longer but not that much longer I'm just saying it could work because again there a lot of people as you know and and again you're going downtown and you know I'm not saying this is me but some of it it's not just getting downtown not having a car but you're going to have a couple drinks you don't have to worry now you get there and oh I got a short walk after I get dropped off at an Christopher not 19 it's way worth it and I can tell you people that D park at my house it's way worth it to them so um so I think we're learning um how we fund it in the long term how we make it work does it work I don't know but I I still think it's worth the baby steps of exploring this a little while longer thank you vice mayor commissioner gal thank you mayor uh if you recall I believe I voted no the first time this came around and I seconded the motion here so that tells you I'm making progress and I'm making progress entirely because of the on demand and um my but I do have a quick question and I apologize mayor but on St Christopher because it's a geofence is it limited to the side of the street if I'm on the north side of St Christopher am I still within the Geo fence we could design it on either side of the street okay cuz I was thinking the corner of pine Hurst and St Christopher might be a great place to pull your cars and you could walk there you could walk or bike and leave your bike back as long as there's no sun I can actually inter you uh but and and while I did did bark a little bit about um who's paying for this I will also tell you that there's nothing wrong with communities paying for public transit and when I look at this as on demand that's what I look at and I think we are evolving into microtransit uh a community and so if we can do that and then tie into public transit PSTA and then you get other communities to do that I think the money you spend in this versus the money you spend on Building New Roads widening roads maintaining those roads parking garages I think this is money much better spent for for the taxpayer um and so I I I do think in short order we'll find out during season um that that St Christopher is too far south I just I'm I'm just thinking of Fairway States and you're missing a big chunk of people there that would want to come downtown uh but I understand that the way our neighborhoods are built it's great extensions you can't just move it over a block we're talking now quarter miles half miles miles um but I I think that is a great opportunity lost um other other than that oh and just uh right we all just got back from Scotland if you were here at the beginning of the meeting and I'll tell you that they had walkability bikeability they had Public public buses they had public trams they had Light Rail they had Uber they had a billion different ways to get around and it all worked and so if we can look at Transportation through that lens and look at Tiki rides there is no reason why Tiki rides can't be as successful as it wants to be even with the Looper and and so it's just a matter of everybody working together and giving the options to the people on how they want to get around uh so anyway um I'm I'm done talking although I don't think that this is going to be the last of this because I think what we need to do here is be constantly measuring this it should be part of our dashboard it what we should be doing and making those adjustments as we go along thank you thank you commissioner commissioner walker uh yes ma'am thank you um yeah I'm not making progress on this um I I've got some fundamental problems here um first of all I I want to address the the um comments about data um I think that you know and I would agree there some point we need to stop asking for data and uh I think there what the data has shown is is the fixed route is was a was an overwhelming SU success during the high season without a doubt and it was bolstered by testimonials from the businesses that you know we supported bone Appetit being one of them um so I that that's what data shows us that is shown us I don't think that we need a whole lot more data but I'll tell you the one thing and I'll make this simple the data that I want to see regarding as we start talking here about freebie going going into the on demand Market is how much market share does a denit and business lose as a result of this because I'm not I mean I've seen I saw the comparison I'm not convinced and the other part that I have this is another fundamental problem that I have on this is that we're going to be making a decision here with regards to and I know this is just a pilot project I know that's it is okay and I know that we will be making a decision further down the road on this but you know as soon as you start these incremental uh changes they kind of get a life of their own so before you know it we're we're into this and you know uh we get a a local business who's getting significantly hurt by it um the the other fundamental problem I've got is the fact that we are going to be making a decision to allow on demand service to a company that we are paying a lot of money for and that I have a fundamental problem with that it's giving it unfair Advantage so that's you know where it stands um on a lighter note I really do want the two business models to be complimentary I really do cuz you know holistically conceptually I believe that they can be but you know I just want to make sure that um you know I I'll be honestly I'm not sure where I'm going to go on the vote here uh yet but I will say this I do want to guarantee that when this pilot project is over that we get a full accounting of the impact to our local business and uh you know with that said uh that's all I've got thank you thank you commissioner commissioner twanga thank you mayor um I'd like to bring out a a very interesting point I think um I'm I'm thinking about the residents I'm thinking about the residents are going to use this so if a resident wish wishes to use this and if we're in full impact with in the city it would be called in an intra city transportation system that could connect the buses that could take somebody to the library and get picked up back at the library and taken home again um it's not just about downtown but if you wanted to come downtown as someone said if you wanted to eat a little bit too much you could and they would take you home one with full stomach and you don't have to worry about that I'm talking about something else of course but um it is a system that achieves a lots of different a lot of different important things and I think what you have probably learned um with your system going from all the way up to 42 42 implementations right currently um is that it works and people like it and people can can call it jump on it and get taken wherever they wherever they want to go uh within the boundaries of that and I like the boundaries of being done eaten because it does help the downtown area or it does help any entertainment area if I want to go to a restaurant that's some place else I can do that easily but it cuts down the traffic as well um I think that's important senior citizens hav't had the option of going to more places on what perhaps they've gone to in the past uh and that's important to keep them active I heard the number that we said we were 57 age median that means half the people are over over that 57e age limit and one of the problems is transportation for those folks this would this could be pretty pretty easy and pretty simple and it has all the benefits that were mentioned so I'm going to make a comment um I don't like paying the 48,000 to go forward um if that's what we need to do to get all of us on up to speed with this so that we feel we can make a decision well I don't want to lose what we've got going so far and I don't want to lose what I think is a is is a system that works um and that we can't Implement so um here we go again I'm probably going to vote to pay the extra money um to keep it here because I would like to see it here and I know it can be successful here I know it will work and I'm ready to go so that's those are my comments thank you commissioner um I do have some comments again just to share with my colleagues not much different than I've shared before so the purpose of this service originally even though people were throwing out this on demand at that time the purpose of this service was to get people from One parking area to another area so that people didn't do the the circle and the loop and try to find a parking spot we are not a planned community so we have parking in multiple different places not always exactly where we need it and some of those parking lots will be going away because they're lease lots and we don't own them and so to get people used to being feeling comfortable with parking over here of the street from calonia and going down to boneti at the other end um and no offense but there are a lot of people that can't make that walk and so I I think I did say that I get that and so but what it is is that everybody generally when they're parking wants to park at the spot right in front of their place and we don't have that and so that was the purpose of this many communities have what they call a Looper something that just keeps going around so it gets you where you need to go and that that was the purpose to try to fill up parking in areas that aren't parked in right as often and relieve other areas that are people are standing in line waiting to find a spot now having said that what was said earlier by a gentleman that came up to to speak our residents parking habits and our visitors parking habits are completely different and I'll say the math again we have 5.5 million extra cars on the road during High season the whole year actually in pelis county that equates to 880 some thousand people that are coming here visiting denen those people don't really know where they're going when they come to downtown they just want to find a spot and that Looper takes them around that Looper is not going to help get those people here and those are the people clogging up our parking so again the Looper lets them Park wherever and get wherever and go explore more because some people I don't know what's right around the corner so I don't want to walk that far in case it's too far for me to walk to get to something we should not be in the business at all of providing OnDemand service outside of the downtown that is psa's job to provide public transit the Looper is not what I call public transit it's getting you it's it's performing a function to help us spread out our parking and we should be fighting with psda to get better service and better public transit which by the way you pay for this on demand service nobody's paying for why should we be paying for that for people to get a free ride into downtown and I'm just sorry it's not the business we should be in we should demand our County's Transit Agency put together that Sur service for us now I'm voting for this so don't worry about it but I'm saying for the future CU I won't be here to vote on this again I say psda is the public Transit Agency and if there is going to be any service that brings people where they need to go in any distance that is a public transit agency's job and this dis should be screaming at the top of their lungs at psda to do that that is in your tax bill you're paying for the service you're not even getting but yet we're going to provide a free service on top of it to me that's double taxation but it's not even about that for me for me it is about putting PSTA on notice to do the job they need to do to provide the transit this community needs and that's not about the Looper now I understand we want to relieve the cars coming into downtown I get all of that except I'm going to tell you I don't care what your data says I guarantee you it is not going to preclude us from needing that parking garage I guarantee it the data is too big the visitor numbers are too big the cars coming into this community outside of our residents is too big we are going to need that parking garage so this Serv is not going to stop us from building a park and garage it just isn't and you know God John I hate to admit it John shine but you're right that's what Uber is for Uber and lift if you don't want to circle around and park but that's not the only people coming here and we learned that during the whole paid parking fi go we learned very clearly that the majority of the cars that were in the downtown were visitors we have that data but I'm fine looking at this data I'm fine getting it don't have a problem with it CU I already know what it's going to say and I've been working in the studying the transit field if you will for almost 18 years so I think I have a pretty good handle on it um I'm just reading my notes here it's just like I said it's never going to be an either or between a garage and an on demand service I'd love to think that but it's never going to be able to find it's not it's two rides that fit five people or six you're never going to get enough cars off the road ever um and I do agree with this concept I understand why we're looking at it I do agree with the concept of this idea that during off peak is when we should be doing the on demand um I'm not going to try to get into the weeds because you guys have done your research I understand you're looking at this to either to make a uh kind of you know get off the pot kind of decision let's look at the data and see what it says so that we can either move forward or remove this from the conversation I understand that but if you look at what what really to me should be happening is during we are now in a postco back to normal seasonal we've seen it with our penny for penel collections with the visit St P Clearwater bed tax collections we we are going back to the normal season where business stinks in summer and doesn't when it's not and hadn't been that way for a few years so that means that maybe we have to go down to one vehicle or maybe we during the summer maybe we don't do Thursday through Sunday maybe it's only Friday and Saturday I don't know but expanding free rides to our residents and then let's say you do that seasonally aren't they going to be angry when that service isn't there so I don't I I don't think we should be in the business of providing public transportation to our residents I believe that psda should be doing that and we should be demanding it of them we should be asking them to pay you to do it not us they could still be you I don't care doesn't have to be a bus you know I'm fine with the freebie but it it should be them doing these micro CMS like you're speaking of with Transit it should be them paying just like they're paying for the last mile for Ubers for people so why not pay for this it shouldn't be for us to do and it isn't because I don't support Transportation I support Transit more than sorry more than you and I know you're a big advocate of it I'm just realistic about what we can accomplish and so I I think while we are looking at this on demand I think we need to draw in psda I think they need to be a part of the da the data analysis I think we need to be asking them to partner that we're you know even if there's a glimmer of hope that says this is needed well then let them provide it all year long or subsidize it or help us get the grants but they should be part of this conversation they're in the business of transportation and Transit not us what we're doing downtown is simply trying to train people to park in in wherever they need to park and get to wherever they need to go and I absolutely understand why the West End needs this people don't really like to cross Alt 19 they don't it's not comfortable especially at night and not comfortable to go down there by the marina at night and walk I get it you want to hop on that Looper to get down there and it's also meant to go by our hotels to pick up people who are visiting and can leave their car at the hotel and get around downtown so there is a purpose of a Looper a fixed route Looper during spring training again you're spreading out all of that parking there are a whole ton of benefits to having the Looper in the downtown it's just a different benefit than the bringing the cars in and out of the downtown that's a different subject to me and I think we're trying to make one service do multiple things that it wasn't meant to do if we want that on demand if we want that better service let's go get it let's just get the right person to do it and not Ute what we have here cuz I do believe in what you're doing I just believe we have to shift a little bit during the offseason now that we know we really do have an off season which we didn't even know that we would have until after it happened um so those are my comments I'm I'm you have to give it to you that's pretty good comments gives us a lot to think about yeah and that's apprciate that's what I want to do and and absolutely appr you know um so roll call vote please n i i i that motion passes four to one thank you thank you okay now we're down to Consulting Services contract with Doug Hutchins for project management assistance in the amount of 20 grand Bob do you really need Doug yes he does I need Doug okay we all need Doug we really have to talk about it so moved wait wait wait is there a second wait wait time out this is not about Bob this is about Jorge okayge wait wait is there a second I heard vice mayor can we get through this quick second yes oh I was going to say okay yeah anything else you need to say I'm concerned when Doug says this is it we Doug lot of capital projects that's something H and I going to have to work on but uh Doug obviously has tremendous institutional knowledge his critical path his project management or uh you know A+ and uh with Coca-Cola heating up Jorge and I definitely need his assistance with various aspects with the coke property whether it's uh with the waste water treatment plant or it's with some other aspects um we need Doug on board so yeah it's essential that we we need Doug to never retire well I I'm going to te I'm I'm going too late he did I'm going to tease you just I just going to mention here a little bit so talk dou I talked I'm not letting you go I talked to Doug he said well gee I'm getting up there you know I'm 7071 I said well big deal Trevor's 81 what you what are you saying so sound like you said 77 you better say 7071 there you go but no uh Doug adds tremendous value to what Hy and I do in the city and we much appreciate what he does and and this this particular assignment is is linearly related to predicting our interest with the Cod uh closure and and making sure that we meet the the criteria that we have to we're obligated to respond to D to the environmental stuff and that's critical it's money very well spent very critical any questions I'm sorry who I have a comment but no questions uh commissioner gal thank you I have a comment but no questions any other questions anybody from the public I'll I'll uh ask a question sure so obviously we determined that we needed assistance on on projects or project management or management of of of An Occurrence so for example in this in this case we're talking about a facility a 28 acre facility that's in our uh in our city and we need to have a consult we're we don't have the C capacity to handle that internally currently I think that's what you're saying correct and so you determined that you found a consultant who can do that for us yeah it's you know obviously Mr Hudson's doing other work for us and uh he is a very good value for the city and he has the institutional knowledge to run this coke down so yes and if I got elaborate commissioner in this regard Doug is perfectly suited because given his role previously as Deputy sening manager and prior to that public works and utilities director he brings some institutional knowledge to this that we're not going to get get from a Hired Gun consultant on our gec list the the ability for him to be able to coordinate with our utilities department with the background that he brings having spent the time and he has been working with economic development all those different components that roll into the complexity of the coke parcel and what we want to do going forward is is critical so again I think it's 20 grand spent very well yeah just a little Lev he know thank you but I have to ask the question sure okay so how was the 20,000 determined uh I have to ask so did we determine that we thought it would be this many x amount of hours and so we took an hourly rate times that I'll respond if you'd like shortly goad um we had a um independent consultant uh contract set up with with Doug based on an hourly erate I can't recall exactly what what it is it's in the Staffing sure um but we're obligated to respond back to uh d by December second so there's a set time frame so it was basically backing into the amount of work that has to occur between now and December 2nd and that that's how we arrived at the $20,000 between now and dece and December 2nd December 2nd so we we determined that was probably x amount of hours correct and what based on the hourly rate that we have with Doug's contract what what is that hourly rate uh it's $70 70 which is half for consultant no I think that's that's great it's just I'm just yeah transparency just asking the question absolutely no I was just going to make a little make a little joke that Doug knows where the pipes are buried you know just yes he does he knows a lot of history literally and figuratively I'm not those where the bodies are $70 $70 an hour and may or I do have a couple questions sure what exactly is Doug's role going to be in relation to the decision making on what we would like that property to be as opposed to the decision being made up at the day is yeah no Doug's role on that one is is is rather light his role at this point in time is the Environmental aspects the coordination with d the coordination with Koch coordination with attorney and consultant relative to the environmental aspect as far as what shape form the property takes that'll be something I'll be dealing with more with the developer and then be taking to you for input deliberation yeah these are strictly project management Services he's not going to be making a recommendation of what the commission should do or not do it's making sure that we meet all the obligations that we have to in order to provide our responses back to the D prior to that deadline like the arsonic stuff yeah you have to understand what kok is looking to do is get what's called a no significant finding and there's impacts with the city especially with Jason properties and things along those lines we park for one yeah there's waiver Park there's the trail there's other aspect so Jor and I are coordinating some but Doug is taking a lion chair and then coordinating back to Jorge and and us the other aspect for me is working with developers right now and getting input in what Koch's schedule is uh they are looking to put this up for sale on the first quarter of 25 so we're looking to get this in a position where city is comfortable and then we'll be working on the Redevelopment of it and bringing to you for deliberation what happens uh it's going to take some time I I don't want to think I don't want to think this is going to be a quick one I I don't expect it all right thank you but then I I I probably shouldn't do this but I will cuz I'll I'll ask you again that I think while we're talking about a parking garage I think a viable option is a surface level lot at the North End of Douglas part of the Coca-Cola plant so if we're going to talk about a Looper and and getting people who visit dun Eden to feel comfortable taking something outside and bringing them in or from one end to the other it seems to me a much smarter idea and cheaper idea than building a parking garage in the middle of our downtown that was more of a comment than no no I understand coc's a property so I I I get that but at least would like that to be part of our ask sure you know is is you know right it's their prop they're going to do with it what they want but part of your relationship with them is to figure out what's best done with that property from our interest except except that to hang on but except that we have an obligation within the CRA to build a parking garage correct to pelis County and that doesn't satisfy it well then I guess we should not use so I okay so let's just build a parking garage then my mistake I'm just saying well I don't even then why did we have the discussion to even put it as part of the business why do we have any discuss why have I had 100 discussions the last 2 years over the parking garage when the decision was made I don't know but we have this agreement with them what do we do go back how do we undo that I that's what I I don't I think that it's so absurd to have our tied hands to tens of millions of dollars I just had I known differently okay well I mean I'm not trying to make you feel that we have to build this now because we promised the county we would but it's not a promise it's a signed contract that we will do X if you give us this money it's not a promise it's a and it's been in there for 30 years it and we've done nothing because we keep putting it off and which is why they wanted to cut our money okay I'm just saying I don't mind your idea about having parking at Coca-Cola zero ideas about the parking garage I will vote Yes every time because I have to I understand now I I know my place the county takes precedent and In fairness the county wanted to cut the money because they want the money for their coffers that's why and and that's not just unique to our us as a c so it isn't but they also cuz they have they have their own priorities so yeah they they they feel the I'm not trying to be critical no but we've been before them yes Dave Edgar stood before them I mean trust me I listened to it several months ago from him whenever this was all going on six months ago you know the county you made me you know I I had to go before them and say that you know we were going to do this and if you don't do it you're going to make your yourselves look you know I won't say the words he used but well there there's some thought there that our downtown is fine complet that have other needs and they don't really feel compelled to continue the Tiff funding but in this case since we took on debt and we said we're going to do such and such as part of an interlocal it kind of tied us into Skinner the garage and some of the other items so I I think what I was just trying to say wasn't where it ended up going what I was trying to say is I don't think the Coca-Cola parking idea is a bad idea what I'm saying though is it doesn't satisfy the CRA issue it's not within the CRA it's outside of the CRA and they won't count that and mayor if I could in addition to uh the coordination that Doug's been doing with d cocacola our attorneys um there's also a component that we're trying to look at is a potential land donation to expand the wastewater treatment PL so so there are a lot of lot variables moving Parts moving parts to this which is why we need somebody dedicated to it okay questions uh yes um and uh so I'm you know I'm looking at the agreement and I'm must say I'm getting very confused um okay talking about $20,000 yes sir and then there's the exhibit at the end of the agreement that says $70,000 that was that was the original agreement that we had in place with Doug this is an amendment to add $20,000 to his PO specific to the the Coca-Cola there's a separate memo yeah yeah there was probably some additional information if I may commissioner Walker the C in Economic Development has a current contract with uh with Mr hutkin for 497 which is under Del which is just under the delegated authority when you add the 20,000 addition to it then you come up to around $70,000 existing this is a $20,000 am okay um y so is there is there a document that provides a little more detail to the scope of what we expect and please please these questions are not intended to say that I'm doubting your decision it's just in terms of you know what I would like to see is you know a more detailed assessment of scope and the metrics well seem seems really Broad and wide open is what I'm saying well it's it's if I may it's it is a $70 an hour which is way under what a consultant would be it's to uh go ahead and continue with the process with d continue with coordination with environmental phase one out there with Koch coordination with the attorney that the city retained relative to working with Koch for no significant finding it's to ensure that the city is indemnified chasing properties um where you can add to it I think I covered it fairly good there but uh yeah again it's it's um you know given it it's Doug and and the rate that we had in the original agreement um I actually reached out to him he didn't want to do this to be honest I actually reached out and said budy we need somebody that can dedicate their time to manage this project between it has has a finite end we have to have the response back to to D by December 2nd I don't have the time to to I mean there have to be 15 20 emails a day they're bouncing back and forth to coordinate between our environmental engineer uh I'm sorry uh attorney um Coca-Cola D um all the different components you know looking at the land donation aspect you know going in Eyes Wide Open what what are we going to get as a result of that looking at what are the impacts to Weaver Park what are the restrictions on Weaver Park going forward um so it's really just all the necessary PM project management work that's going to occur between now and December 2nd at and the only reason that the agreement is attached is because his hourly rate $70 an hour and wh I might add we just had a recent meeting with C they've kind given a deadline in October they want to get a good feel for this by mid October so time's of the essence that's I guess the other thing I want I get it I appreciate I appreciate the explanation and everything into that and that you truly do you truly do need a uh subject matter expert on this to work in the time frame that we have and it was a small contract Frank yeah gotcha I mean in the big scheme of things yeah I'm good I appreciate that thanks yeah any other questions nope okay we have a motion in a second any final comments yes I do actually anybody from the public which to speak final comment so I want to commend men staff um I mean we all know how much especially Jorge is running his butt off Every Which Way um and and I will say and I've said this to people we have been very creative about using some people that have a lot of knowledge here who've already retired um and we've needed to because it's a tough labor market and on top of it we need the expertise and and I'll tell you there's a couple people are not retirees from here but they are from other places and they want to be here because of Jorge well they can't be here because of Jorge if we kill Jorge you know so um I'm just saying I I appreciate what you bring to the table $70 an hour for what we get from Doug is fantastic but don't worry Doug if you're listening we're not giving you anymore insal the institutional knowledge that he brings and and we do not want to be up your microing this because I'll tell you what I've done that kind of work and it's like I don't need this job you need need me more than you so don't get picky um this is a good deal with a guy that's going to bring a lot more than 70 bucks an hour to the table they're not going to pay him 20,000 if he doesn't work the number of hours for that and so I I commend you because I know how much we've pieced aart especially in this area of engineering because of you know they're all working for a lot more money somewhere else for companies and so keeping that department and keeping that going and with all our big projects and doing them well is huge so I commend staff for being creative and please Doug don't leave anytime soon thank you anything else from anybody no all in favor signify by saying I I I me oppose motion passes bless you all and then um with had two items requesting to be postponed uh first the clear Fair funding agreement to be postponed October 1st work session I have a motion to so moved second your mic on oh by you commissioner fry and commissioner Walker all in favor signify by saying I I any opposed motion pass unanimously and then the city clerk's annual performance evaluation being moved to October 3rd can I have a motion to postpone so move second ice mayor fry and commissioner Walker all in favor sign by saying I I any opposed motion passes unanimously and then we have the proposed agenda for October 3rd are there any addition or changes just the item that you just postponed the city clerk's evaluation um say what just the item you've just postponed the city clerk's evaluation will add to October 3rd okay can I have a motion to approve move second vice mayor Frey and and commissioner Walker all in favor signify by saying I I any oppos motion passes unanimously anything else that anybody needs to bring forward mayor if I if I could um I sent you all an email earlier today uh to the vice mayor's Point uh I need a break so I'm going to be going on vacation for a couple weeks and Bob who just ran out of here is effectively at the end of this meeting acting city manager until Jennifer gets back on Saturday or Sunday have a great time have a great time Jorge and Jennifer go back to Vacation see you later that was quick look at that see you see you I will I'll be actually flying back in on um on Sunday afternoon enjoy I will there there is a storm out there you keep an eye on it but I I'll be talking to Chief um throughout the weekend as necessary so um we will have everything covered as long as as long as it doesn't come tomorrow night okay thank you Jennifer all right we are adjourned [Music]