##VIDEO ID:Zpg5doS1p8k## [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome everybody um unfortunately Jennifer can't get on so she's going to go find a different Wi-Fi spot um so she won't have any opening remarks today I mean you know as we go into this um but by the time you have done your presentation she'll give whatever she was going to say um so thank you guys for being here and for being patient unfortunately we just have some really sick people and contagious people I don't think you want them here I didn't want them next to me so um but we are plugging away thank you Jeff for going home I sent him home I was like get out of here I don't want you to sit next to me um but I will just say a couple of things um what we're doing today um and I think Jennifer would probably say the same thing is simply um discussing the aluminum versus the wood and the boat ramp because of the aluminum you know because of the configuration and some parking we are not voting on the entire master plan here so this is just a phase and a phase we're voting on is something that we should have probably done 10 years ago um from a capital Improvement perspective um so I I just want to lay that out I don't want everybody to freak out and think we're trying to change the home Marena um because that's not really what we're trying to do here this is just something that is timely and needed so having said that I will turn it over I'm not sure who first Laney yes good evening good evening so I'm Laney sheets Administration superintendent and uh for introductions we've got Lori Ferguson our Harbor Master here and from kimly horn we've got James pinan Casey long and Nick Guida uh who are our consultant um and a little bit of history of how we got to where we are today uh this started with a request for qualifications from a consultant um to help us through this journey to develop a a long range master plan uh that Award of that contract was awarded to kimley Horn based on their qualifications for both Upland and specifically Marine um design and uh that contract was awarded back in December 5th of 2023 uh we immediately got to work with them and did a lot of our kickoff um after the first of the year and um as I said it's their task is to develop both the denina Marina and the so stated public facilities master plan we realize that the entire Marina area is a jewel and visited by more than just the slip Runners um it is a Community Asset and we want to make sure that uh we develop a plan that is sustainable um in our long range as we need to um improve or replace different infrastructure so KY Horn uh worked with City staff and we um met with a variety of stakeholders um both slip Runners and nons slip Runners and all of our different user groups down at the marina um and we had those meetings at the beginning of the year uh kimley horn also did a um complete uh both structural and facility analysis um and uh we put out a community survey to find out what the community's vision of the marina is from there uh kimor developed three different uh Upland Concepts and two different slip Basin configurations um and those Concepts were presented at a community meeting um on April 30th and then again at a city commission workshop on May the 14th uh we um gained a lot of great feedback very valuable information on what things um both the commission and the community uh felt like were great ideas and what things that they felt like were concerns that we could be improving upon uh so kimley Hardon went back to the drawing board and revised the plans um and came up with the proposed uh master plan that you'll see today um the proposed master plan was presented to the Marine advisory committee on July the 29th um and again at another community meeting on August the 6th uh the Marine advisory committee then did uh meet uh subsequently to that and um did vote unanimously to support uh the concepts within the master plan uh with the option of the aluminum floating docks and you'll see more about those different options going forward in the presentation um so kimley Harden is here tonight to present uh the proposed master plan um they'll then turn it back to me and I uh we do have Les Tyler our uh director Finance on Zoom as well and he's here remotely to answer any questions uh but the the finance department did then take all of the information and put together uh the different funding scenarios and uh what they felt like were the timelines in order to be able to possibly implement the plan so I'll give you that high level level information unless is here to answer any questions um and then after tonight um once uh we uh get direction on um the final uh direction we want to go the kimy horn will present uh and prepare then a final report back to the city um that we will be able to then memorialize um the the plan going forward uh so at this point I'm going to turn it up to James and Casey to go through the presentation thank you Lany good evening uh James pankin with kimley horn and Associates um so very similar to last time um Casey is going to walk us through the marina elements and the dock elements and the changes that are proposed within there as far as slip size and modifications and dock options I'm going to talk through the Upland portion of the master plan components uh we'll come back for phasing options and then talk about cost estimates as well as next steps and then open up for question and answer Casey hi right good evening so previously uh we had a slide just like this but I've made some adjustments to it based upon the feedback we've received by we can't we can't see the slide um there we go he's got it all right all set good um made some adjustments based upon the feedback received by the Marine advisory committee as well as uh the council and others um throughout the process um but going through the summary here um the existing docks for the 25 foot slips um are currently 8T with the captain's walk sorry not the captain's walk the main uh walk being 8 ft wide so what you see here in the picture is the main F main dock for dock a b or c it's 8 ft wide currently and that's what we're referring to um the finger width range between 18 and 24 in um and the slip wids are around 9 ft what we're proposing for this Marina would be an 8ft main dock with 24t wide fingers and 10t wide slips and this is for the 25 ft slip so a slight increase in the width um and uh more maximizing the width of the fingers um that you currently have uh for the 30 foot um the existing is 8 feet wide for the main walkway and 18 to 24 again for the fingers and a slip width of 11 we're proposing to maintain that 11 ft um and also to uh widen the finger Pier finger docks to about 30 inches um in these areas as you start getting to the larger boats you have more people you have more gear and so we we feel getting up to the 30 in is recommended although the minimum standards traditionally felt are 36 in they are standards that are also adaptable depending upon the local use and and the tending use of the marina by um uh the types of boats so for a 35 foot slip um we're looking again at 8ft main walkway 18 to 24 existing and 14t wide we're proposing to increase the width of the 35- Ft slips to 15 ft um to accommodate the the growing width of boats as they're coming out and in more modern era here um and again maintaining a 30in width on the finger Pier um on the next slide uh we have 45 ft slips um uh everything is the same existing 8T wide 18 to 24 in fingers and a 17 ft wide slip uh we're proposing to sustain that at 17 ft that's what's been uh working for those size vessels um and also a 30in wide finger um these are larger than previously or smaller than previously um and you'll see in a minute how we gained some actual slips as a result of some of these adjustments uh for 50 foot um you had a variety of widths of the slips between 14 17 and 19 and talking with Lori we we've established a 17t width uh to hold on that with again a 30-in wide finger um and finally for the 60t um we have uh currently a 20ft width and 19 to 24 in fingers we're recommending uh to go to a 36in wide finger for those but only with the floating docks and on the fixed docks we recommending going up to 60 it has nothing to do with anything other than when we eliminate or when we go to a fixed dock Arrangement we're eliminating a parallel walkway uh dock that's 8 ft wide and so we have some space and although we weren't able to gain more space to add more boats we were able to widen out some of the fingers um and then there we'll keep that at 20 ft and then you don't have Captain's walks currently um but when we when you do put Captain walks on the South and West walls we're proposing to make those 4T wide in combination with the cap it will give you about a 6ot walking surface so with all those parameters and adjustments we've made uh from the feedback um this is the fix stock option um on the left side of the column that's the current condition you have 192 uh boats being you um being slips in use um and the 60t you can see you have five of them um in in the count the middle is the proposed uh we were able to um maintain a 60 5 60t boats um we went to 1650 foot vessels um and 13 45 foot vessels which in combination went to 29 so the combination of 15 45 fot vessels went up um in this parameter and you can see the far right is the difference um in the end there's 174 um slips versus the existing 192 with a net loss of 18 um and this is for the fixed stock scenario when we go to the floating dock we actually were able to keep the same number of vessels um compared to the fixed dock um what changes is the mix of use um the size of some vessels um will went down uh because we weren't able to um weren't able to fit them in I'm see if I can show you here so for a floating dock scenario we had to add in a parallel marginal dock along the length and what that is for is these black lines represent the gang ways to go down so we have to get down to the water uh close to the water surface with The Walking area and so we added those in and those are 8 ft wide so in doing so some of these slips which were on the previous one larger vessels had to shrink down to smaller vessels to accommodate that it did not change the total boat count but the boat mix as a result of that so you can see here a net loss of 18 vessels um for the floating dock scenario so as we transition to the Upland portions of the project uh we've built a 3D model to show you the the proposed conditions and then also the existing conditions so the next series of slides will show you kind of a view of how things are existing and Then followed up by um a view of the pro uh proposed conditions to help you kind of track what the proposed changes are um so this view represents the existing conditions as they are today um just for reference you've got the harbor master in the Old Bay restaurant in this location the existing boat ramp boat trailer parking playground and restroom and some of the key features um that you're very familiar with on the site there from a proposed U master plan standpoint I want to walk through what some of the major changes are so we've kind of highlighted the key features um starting with the boat ramp um and just to confirm can you see my mouse moving uhhuh okay thank you um so the boat ramp has shifted slightly to the north we've also widened it a little bit um in our previous meeting we discussed should that be a two-lane boat ramp or a single Lane ramp um we've landed on a single Lane ramp uh that is slightly wider we would also lengthen the ramp to decrease the slope a little bit based on some of the input that we've received um so that is located here you'll also notice that it's aligned more with the center of the Fairway um as compared to where it is today which kind of hugs the Southside um closer to the docks over in this location the boat trailer parking has been moved to the south side of the drve vial here um that allows us to do a couple things it picks us up a little bit of Green Space buffer between all the vehicular movements that you have here between Boat Trailers cars entering and exiting and the playground in the Upland park it also puts parking um on the outbound traffic Lanes so that they're not having to cross the inbound traffic um once they launch their boat and then go to park the trailer here um the playground as I mentioned is show shifted slightly um towards the center of the park as well as the um supporting shelters that are currently adjacent to the playground um that does a couple things again it allows us a little more of a buffer between where children are playing and some of those vehicular activities it also puts that playground a little closer to the public parking and some of the parking expansion that we're showing over here uh numbers four five and six really represent um pedestrian traffic calming and circulation enhancements we've provided uh pretty clear clearly defined pedestrian crosswalks all throughout the facility um leading from the park to the marina walk um out in front of the Harbor Master and Old Bay Restaurant um we've also provided continuous walkway from the boat ramp area all the way through the marina walk area past the restaurant and then out to the western part where we have what we're calling Sunset Park and then further on out to the um fishing pier and day dock area we've expanded the current uh public parking area um to the east So currently your parking ends approximately in this location and we've pushed that further towards the east in order to pick up some additional spaces uh We've also provided separate parking access locations for um that parking area so the number nine here indicates the access to the public parking also indicates the access to the public parking the permit parking and then the boat trailer access that would be along the main Marina Drive here so one of the things that we heard during the um input sessions was some of the pedestrian and vehicular conflicts that are fairly frequent there in front of the Old Bay Restaurant um and the Harbor Master building and currently your existing traffic patterns funnel all the traffic um for the parking through that one area so we've provided separate entrances for the different parking areas and then also enhanced um pedestrian Crossings and and circulation to better Define kind of The Pedestrian versus the uh vehicular realm number 10 up here represents some enhancements that we're showing to Sunset Park um so we're showing landscape enhancements as well as um sidewalk on the um outside edges um we're also proposing maybe a gathering shelter there with picnic tables or benches or things that could be utilized for um different events at at that Sunset Park location just off view with number 11 um you'll see this in some upcoming slides but we do have expansion to the day day do as well as the fishing pier um as well as the addition of a Breakwater to help with some of the wave and fetch management coming primarily from the Northwest um number 12 represents the expanded or the reconstructed day docks or sorry the reconstructed docks for dock a b and c um as well as new Captain's walk at number 13 and new docks for the South Wall as well as the Western Wall um we heard again during the input sessions the desire to have secured access for the west and the South walls like the docs a b and c have so by adding that Captain's walk and providing a fence we've been able to have controlled access out to those locations so that you just don't have public people uh walking onto private boats and private slips um we've made some modifications here that kind of coincide with the parking expansion to the entry Plaza so we're proposing more of an um kind of an elevated Gateway monument that could have signage on it that you actually pass through as you enter into the park and then number 15 is the structural repairs um to the Harbor Master building that we touched on um in the last meeting presentation to you um so that's some of the repairs underneath the structure to address some of the cracking and and um items that we um investigated during our structural assessment number 16 represents some of the Interior restroom upgrades and modifications such as uh restroom fixture enhancements shower enhancements that could be utilized for for uh the marina patrons and then just to point out number 17 we really haven't modified the access out to the peninsula that would remain much as it is today with the exception of the boat trailer parking again has been shifted to the souths side of the drive aisle there um to minimize the conflict for crossing over inbound traffic as well as creating just a little more separation between Park users and boat trailer parking um so this is just a plan without the legend so you can kind of get a clear picture of of what those improvements are um so next we're going to walk through again a series of more eye Lev views um these will kind of walk us through a lot of the improvements that I just talked about um currently your existing Boardwalk or Marina walk just as you pass towards the western edge of the commercial docks kind of ends and pedestrians then are are it's not as clearly defined in terms of where they should go it kind of ends and and and puts them right into the parking areas and the vehicular areas so with the proposed improvements we wanted to provide a continuous walking surface that again extends all the way from the boat ramp um through this area and then leads out to that Sunset Park the day docks and the fishing pier Beyond you can see in this view some of the landscape and and maybe shade structure enhancements also that we're proposing there at the Sunset Park location this view is the existing boat trailer parking and configuration um so this shows it on the um north side of that drive drive a so again as you're as you go to park your boat you would be Crossing inbound traffic um so the next view here shows how that's been shifted to the South side and some of the additional Green Space or the buffer space that we've picked up between the vehicular use area and then some of the park the programmed Park features such as the shade structures and playground this is a view of the existing boat ramp um again fairly narrow in its current condition as well as fairly steep um when you launch off of that ramp um it's not very far once you get your boat in the water to where you have some pylons uh behind you so we've heard that that is a potential concern with some of the people launching their boats um so the proposed condition again shifts that ramp to a more slightly more Northern location as well as um widens it a little bit and puts it more in a central Fairway uh launching position the empty docks that you see down here are intended to be um docks that could be used for boat ramp staging so either launching or recovery um people could tie up their boats there um while they're either getting their truck or or or going back to park we did have some comments in our last public meeting that perhaps a parallel um dock uh May facilitate that a little bit better so there's options for us to explore that further as we actually get into engineering and and final design of this this is a view of the existing Park entry with your signage and Landscape behind it and then this view shows maybe that enhanced kind of Gateway Monument or marker that you actually pass through as you come to the marina or the um or the park facility again conceptual at this stage certainly not final design but we like the idea of some vertical element with signage that you actually maybe pass through and under here's an existing view of the park looking kind of towards the southwest and then this view shows the proposed modifications to the park you can see that the pl ground if I toggle back and forth here the playground has slid to that more slightly interior location um you've got your shelters that are adjacent to that um we heard again from the community and from staff that making sure that we accommodate a home for the flag pole as well as some of the monuments within the modifications is important so we're showing those in a proposed location um that you can see right here this is your existing Marina walk right now it's about 4 to 5T wide sidewalk and then a 4 to 5 foot wide um landscape kind of Shell Path area um the proposed conditions um propose enh expanding that a bit to a 10-ft wide prominade as well as a 10ft wide landscape area behind that that can be utilized for um shade trees for canopy trees um shaded seating or bench swings as well as landscape and then certainly bike racks um as an option for people who may be coming to the marina facility or for the public General this is another view of the existing Marina walk with looking towards the Harbor Master building in the background and then again the view of the proposed conditions with maybe bench swings or shaded seating and a much water uh brighter broader prominade this view is of the existing Park looking towards the West if you keep your eye on the upper part of the screen here as well as down here you'll see kind of the impact of the changes to the playground again as well as the expansion of the day Dock and the fishing pier so again the playground is slid more North being a blot closer to the parking and then you can see the expansion of the pier in the background there um one of the things that we also heard was the need to make make sure that we maintain um ability within the park for special events that you currently have and host um I think with working with staff we've heard that the majority of those um currently occur kind of in this larger Green Space area there so we don't feel that the proposed uh move of the playground really um impacts that we still have the same amount of room within there and certainly have a little bit of room uh to adjust that if needed for future considerations also this view is of the existing parking and circulation again one thing that we touched on earlier was kind of the bottleneck that you have at this location in front of the restaurant um so you can see in this view you have cars that are are parked right up against um the the sidewalk and the boardwalk there right up against the um outdoor dining tables and again all of your parking um for this area is coming in through this location as well as your parking for the Marina Drive as well as your boat traffic and trailer parking so in the proposed condition we've split and kind of diverted the um parking access so the majority of your public parking for here would be accessed through this location and then Park for your drive aisle as well as boat uh trailer launching would come through this location again through um special pavement or or contrasting pavement I think we've defined very clearly where those pedestrians are crossing to help kind of give that visual cue to motorists and pedestrians and then you'll also notice if I kind of go back and focus on this area here um to the new plan we've really expanded that Plaza in front of the Harbor Master and restaurant building um to about 20 ft wide so you do have opportunities for um additional landscape buffering as well as tables and chairs out in front of the restaurant there this is again another view of your existing parking and circulation and then this view shows the proposed changes again clearly defined pedestrian Crossings and separate access for those uh main parking areas this view shows the proposed Marina layout um within this View we are showing the fixed dock option um as Casey pointed out the floating dock option really wouldn't change the configuration a whole lot just some Minor Details uh but one thing this view also does show is the new um fence and secured access to the Western Wall which is kind of this black line here as well as the fence and secured access to the Southern Wall again separating public access on the peninsula from secured access out to the boat slip areas this view shows the proposed day do expansion as well as the break water um conceptual again at this point um this would be subject to final design and uh seagrass surveys as well as bimetric survey but um the intent would be to provide expansion uh to the dayoc facilities and the fishing pier and then a a break water to help mitigate some of the wave action that you have entering into the both the do do as well as the marina Basin so this is the existing overall plan again showing all the Upland Park conditions the existing Marina as well as the existing uh fishing pier and day dos and then this is the proposed overall master plan so you can see the changes again up in this corner um this plan also really does a good job of showing the continuous pedestrian circulation um indicated with kind of the brownish color here adjacent to the marina that leads you all the way out to the uh fishing pier and the day dock locations so from a parking standpoint um the proposed plan again does does show an increase um in the net change of proposed parking we've gone from about 123 spaces overall to 164 um the majority of those um occur in the public parking uh locations and then within that the majority occur with the expansion that we're showing uh to the parking lot in this location we did pick up some additional Spaces by straightening out that existing Marina Drive and just um reworking the geometry there a little bit um but so you can see here on the far right column the net change in um parking that's proposed versus the existing um I want to point out that we did have a loss of about two spaces in the boat trailer parking um primarily that came just as we had to reconfigure the geometry here when we shifted that to the um to the south side of the drive but keep in mind we still do have the parking across the street at the uh Church Lot location that is um part of the use here um we had indicated in the yellow where we're proposing what we think makes the most sense for permit parking um and that also represents an increase of about four spaces and then we also did show where we thought it made sense to locate some golf cart parking um of course you have the ability to kind of mix and match any of the golf cart versus vehicular parking and play with those numbers if you wanted to increase uh golf cart and decrease vehicular you certainly have have that that option within the plan here so as we talk about an increase in the parking um that Al also represents kind of an increase in the v vehicular use area which is really the again the gray area used for driving and used for parking um so with the expansion that we're showing to the parking lot here and then the changes along the drive AIS um that's about a 7 acre increase in vehicular use area and then that translates unfortunately to a decrease in in the Upland parks space but you can see that trade-off of providing um the enhanced parking and circulation versus um the impact that that has on the uh parking in the green space from a phasing option this is largely um similar to what we presented last time but from a phase one standpoint what we're proposing is the structural repairs and modifications to the Harbor Master building as well as the replacement of Doc a the sunset um Park as we're calling it modifications and the access out to that and then also the Reconstruction of the existing day dos and the fishing pier phase two would be um the Reconstruction of Doc B phase three would be the Reconstruction of Doc c as well as the um boat ramp modifications and phase four would be the Upland Park improvements and uh vehicular modifications phase five would be the docks along the western and southern wall as well as the captain walk associated with those and then phase six would be the expansion um of the day do and the fishing pier as well as the Breakwater um as that's a part of that expansion the reason that's separate from F phase one is that's a different permitting timeline that's all new permitting versus reconstruction so that would have a longer timeline in terms of approval processes and everything this would allow us to construct um the Reconstruction of the fishing pier in a quicker fashion okay I'm going to turn it over to Casey now to talk about costs and a couple other items just a little bit more on on the detail one of the things that we're recommending as part of phase one um is on the enir environmental permitting side of things to move forward with environmental permitting of the whole entire Marina with the exception of the phase six location so that as you start stepping through the construction process you'll already have the long lead time of the environmental permit behind you which would allow you then to just move into the construction phase and the design phase for each of the subsequent phases um so that was one slight difference that's kind of hard to show on the graphics um before I move on to the cost I actually want to I want to I want to cover just the concept of the floating docks and the fixed docks and so um we've been talking all along about floating versus fixed the last time we spoke I was talking mainly about you know the two extremes you have the fix stock made out of wood which is on the right and it's what you're used to seeing out there and then the floating dock and what I had been pricing what I had been talking to you about was more thinking about the concrete docks you know the Bellingham style uh floating docks um a lot of feedback we've received you know about things about the floating docks and then also with the cost difference being so substantial um we went between meetings and um had several conversations did a little bit of research to discover there are a lot of varieties which I've already known about but discovering that the there's a lot more varieties of aluminum docks than just the simple flimsy ones that a lot of people put in their backyard there are more robust ones that have concrete decking they have different things so I wanted to share that with you here um you know as we're going through the cost assessments and the discussions um you have aluminum docks like here on the left which have a composite finish you can put nice wood or lumber on top of it aluminum docks that they call the poly these are the more simple more flimsy ones for the Fingers um but then they have some wood and other things tied to it and then you have ones with concrete floats and concrete decks and then others with aluminum with concrete tiles so you can dress it up accordingly and so when I had given the prices before that were so extreme it was for a concrete Dock and and you're going to see here as we're going through it um the prices for the aluminum docks are um somewhere in the range between a fixed wood Dock and the concrete floating docks um I will point out that um for the recommendations associated with the aluminum floating docks um the layouts would stay the same as the concrete docks um so when we talk about floating docks it's either concrete or the aluminum or some hybrid com combined however for the commercial dock area which is where you currently have all your commercial boats and also your day dock area I'm recommending staying with the concrete just because of the wave action and the heavy environment that's there but once you get into the more Tranquil Waters behind your current brake water you can go into um the the aluminum dock configurations um so for a order magnitude cost scenario you can see um The Columns that are in blue are for fixed dock scenarios uh the columns in green are for floating docks uh with concrete and the ones in Orange are the floating docks with aluminum I do specify that we're using Concrete in specific locations such as a commercial dock for all three um or for for the green and the orange um but you can see that you know for example for Doc a it's $1.5 million to go with a wood composite type uh fixed scenario for concrete floating docks it's nearly a million dollars more for it but somewhere in between is an aluminum option and so uh depending upon through the design process which type of aluminum or with concrete or fixed we can adjust those finishes and things to bring the prices um uh more affordably but these are the general ranges you have your extreme uh in green and your your your lower cost fixed in blue um I don't know if you want me to go into too much detail on the pricing but just to give you an idea of the relative costs and then transitioning back to the Upland improvements um what I show to you as far as the slides and and that kind of those phase four elements that were on the phasing plan um that represents about um the $2.8 million that you see there so that includes your parking and drive aisle modifications um some additional drainage infrastructure sidewalk and Hardscape lighting Landscaping really kind of the features that I that I walked you through in those um slides previously and then we also had identified um about $400,000 for some of the structural repairs to the Harbor Master building in phase one and then the building improvements for the Harbor Master um some minor floor plan modifications up on the upper level as well as um an ADA lift um to get up there to make it Ada accessible and so those combin totaling about $975,000 um so with that I'm going to turn it over to Laney to talk through some of the um Financial um overview aspects yes so thank you um as I mentioned we did uh run all of these cost estimates uh with our finance team and uh they came back with three different funding scenarios um for the marina Enterprise fund and uh what the rates would need to be and what kind of debt financing they would need to do um to implement uh these various elements uh so uh with that I will say like the um elements that are uh through these funding assumptions are for the Marina Enterprise fund to pay for the slip uh Replacements that are within the Basin uh the fishing pier and the day docs would be funded by uh more general fund uh uh sources as well as the improvements to the Harbor Master building um and any of the Upland improvements as well the um funding assumption is for the uh boat ramp to be split 50/50 um and so with that you will see here that with the fixed stock scenario um there would be a um 10% rate increase through 2031 as you remember with the rate study that we did um about a year and a half ago um that had five a minimum of five years of 10% rate increases um and it was with the um assumptions of just maintaining the infrastructure that we have now now with the caveat that whenever we did the marina master plan any additional Capital Improvements would need to be on top of that um so uh that does incur a $3.2 million debt in 2028 um in the aluminum funding scenario um the rate increases would be the same but there are two different debts uh that happened the 3.56 million in 26 uh with an additional 2.5 million in 2030 uh both of those are 10year loans um and the last scenario is um with the floating docks um the finance team felt like uh they needed to have the Revenue income come in sooner uh due to the much higher increase in cost um and so they were proposing a 20% rate increase through 26 through 28 um so more upfront um getting to the same point in the rates uh and again there are the same two uh debts that would need to happen uh so James if you can go to the next slide um and then we also again worked with the finance team on what the cash flow scenario would be for the um various elements and phases within the the marina Enterprise fund and uh the ability to pay for uh the elements uh the different phases so you'll see there's two different years on each of those uh the first year in each one is for the year that the design would take place and the second one would be for construction um so there's about a two-year difference between you know each one design construction design construction uh so doc a would start in at fiscal year 25 um and we're actually um if you remember there's um structural improvements with the hyber master building as well as the um replacement of the fishing pier that need to happen sooner than later so we're already working with kimley horn on getting a scope and fee proposal that can be implemented early in the fiscal year um pending the approval of the master plan uh so 25 and 26 for Doc a followed by B in 2728 followed by C in 29 and 30 um um we do know that um for the fund modeling we have to program in um a future dredge um and what that would take with the Marine Enterprise fund so um Les Tyler has programmed that into either assuming TW either 36 or 2037 um and that is in Timeline um in line with the last two dredges and how far apart they were um so again won't know that until we get closer to that timeline um and then lastly the southwest and Commercial walls are programmed in that 20 40ish time frame so at this point um you'll see where we are in these steps where we are tonight um is you know to move forward with the concepts of the the master plan as I mentioned um kimley horn based on the feedback that we get tonight from commission uh we'll then prepare the final uh report uh to bring back to commission um and uh for you all to approve that final report at a future date um we will then move into the phase one design and permitting sections and I again mentioned that those were already um programmed in the budget for fiscal year 2025 um followed by Construction of phase one elements in 26 so at this point we'll turn it back uh to kimley horn and the commission for any questions okay um Jennifer is online can we can we go to zoom please there she is Miss America thank thank you for your patience everyone I had a little Wi-Fi issue at home so here I am in the office I just thought you might want to have your comments before we go into questions and all that and I thank you very much mayor vice mayor and Commissioners I see some empty seats up there so we got a lot of Zoom participants it's like the good old days um so so first off I'm sorry I missed the the first part of the meeting as I said I had some some Wi-Fi issues at home uh so I didn't uh get the opening comments Lany did did talk a little bit about opening comments this afternoon and I know that she gave you an overview of all the community input um which was there was a lot of community input on this master plan and a lot of adjustments that kimley horn made to the master plan as well uh moving forward overwhelmingly what we heard uh from the community was that uh the community wants this Marina to remain a uh amenity for the residents they want the family like atmosphere to remain and they want the greatness of our Marina to remain and and all of those things and and we responded to that um originally as you as you recall there were two boat ramps and then two lanes in um and that was deleted and and and so on and so forth um that said I think that what we see here are a lot of of essential uh infrastructure improvements if you will to the marina itself we've got to to address the day dos we've got to address uh the pier we've got to address the um the harbor Masters building and Doc a as well in the very near future um and then and then the rest of the master plan is is as Lany had said conceptual and each item will come back to you individually to approve because obviously these are these are uh um improvements that will cost certainly way more than my delegated authority so you're going to see it once tonight and then once again in the final report and then again as each phase comes uh to you um um when it's ready to go essentially so that that's really all I needed to say mayor um I think that that that ly's done a fantastic job on this kimy Horn's done a fantastic job I know that there are residents there I'm sorry I can't see you but I know that I I know you because you've all been at all those Community meetings and there's going to be plenty of public input uh uh moving forward um as we go phase by phase as well so um thank you mayor for allowing me some some comments as you had already started the meeting so Jennifer um just to be clear really tonight from the approval perspective we could take this in a section and just approve or determine the the docks and the parking and the boat ramp piece right and and then we can come back and look at the whole other piece later we can certainly do that you will look at the other piece later when you're looking at the final report as well that's what I'm saying because this is not the final approval yes we really those items we need for fiscal year 2025 because they're baked into our budget right right and so um and we need to get started on them um and so yes and then and then when we look at the final report you can look at any other um uh Concepts or phases that that you want to see um again this is a discussion that that you've discussed it together the entire master plan right um in terms of of you've seen it before but in terms of the options moving forward and we've kind of kind of zeroed in on some of those options this or that type of a thing so uh but you will see it see other con Concepts uh moving forward subject to your comments tonight okay thank you all right questions um I'll start with you vice mayor I'm thank you very much okay okay um so between um floating the aluminum and the concrete like I had a citizen who's a a a you know a slip runer who's basically saying there's countless other options for docks and they haven't really been looked at in this plan um can you respond to that I'm not sure what other options there would be I mean fixed has been the old traditional floating dock technology has been evolving over time and so floating floating option is is is the next option I I know that some citizens had presented to us an idea of a fixed stock with a ramp going down to every finger um the concerns that we have with those are that the ramps would be very narrow and very steep depending upon low tide and high tide uh by going with a total Flo floating dock system we're able to put in a nice accommodating ramp down to the floating docks um and then everybody will be down at the same level walking around to get onto their boats versus having individual ways down there are options like that that are used up north in the areas but with our title changes um the ramp links are quite substantial and didn't seem practical for this location um there are other types of floating docks that are far more flimsy you've seen the plastic ones you've seen uh the aluminum ones you've now seen the more sturdy aluminum ones I've spoken with several manufacturers but I'm not aware of many other options that they would be referring to so so your view is that combination of some type of aluminum and concrete or the all concrete and that's kind of what you presented right correct like that's that you know those are the two things that make more logical sense for us I I I feel that floating docks are more resilient to the tides and as sea level rise continues to occur you can continue to have your floating docks uh moving with it um with the fix dock scenario we're probably going to have to look at potentially raising the height of the existing fixing docks just to accommodate these King Tides because many of your docks are underwater during the higher Tides um so with the floating docks it self levels potentially um then so those combinations make the most sense so um well let me ask this um I was out there the other day and it was an hour before hide tide and and you know they were already underwater so I guess you know for me and this is a separate issue from how we fund everything but it's about sustainability we we talk up here about sustainability into the future where a Coastal Community obviously our Marina is like one of our earliest amend ities in our history right so for me I want to make a decision that makes sense for our long-term sustainable future because we preached that up here that we need to do that we're Coastal Community you know regardless of the funding issues I I just want to understand do you feel both these options for floating docks are the better either one of them is equally as good as for sustainability into the long term but for the sustainability when you're referring to dealing with Rising tides sea level r i I do yes um the the the seaw walls themselves are you know low you know that's a separate discussion but then you'd have that Ripple throughout your whole entire Community um but you know from the purposes of your docks I feel the floating docks make the most sense to be able to continue to follow the trend of the rising tides that are occurring okay um what is the greatest thing that's impacting the loss of the the 18 slips it's it it's multiple combinations unfortunately I mean the addition of the uh 4 foot of Captain's walks um on one side will narrow up the channel and we couldn't narrow it up more than you already had um so that impacts it I don't believe that by adding in that extra four feet you would necessarily gain a lot more slips but you do have a little bit of a squeeze so it changes the boat mix um the other impact of of the loss was the widening of the finger docks you know you're at 24 inches you bump every one of them up by six inches in in a lot of areas as you add up multiple Fingers um you you gain um some space uh those were some of the bigger impacts on the floating dock side as I pointed out before putting in that long marginal floating dock um didn't cause a loss of slips but it did impact the the size and the mix of boats so you had a little bit more if I remember correctly you have more smaller boats being accommodated in the floating dock scenario because of that 8 foot uh squeeze so thank you I just want to double check that was correct um so floating docks 41 to 30 68 yeah so you youve gained some smaller votes as a result of that but okay um so with the with the U boat ramp I'm I'm sorry and the other thing was is the the the width of some of your 25 ft slips um that were in place there they were down at 9 F feet and you know current boats they're almost 9 ft wide themselves um by bumping up to 10 ft you lose a foot of space that you had before which starts eating into some of those as well so there's a three combinations so one I saw I saw how some of those boats are bumping into each other right now um the the boat ramp itself um so how many slips do we lose with widening that and and I heard a lot of talk at the input session um that uh from the community about boats bumping into boats and I you know I'm not a boater I owned a boat for two years but that just makes me dangerous because I don't really know um so I just don't know how um I don't want to say legitimate but how you know is that an issue should we be concerned about that because obviously we don't want to create more problems so the widening of the boat ramp um did not impact the slip count because we moved the Boat Center and then we didn't widen it substantially we widened it sufficiently to you know allow some more comfort for some wider boats um I I think there is a a fair concern with respect to you know boter coming in and launching their boats on the very narrow Fairway and so you're dealing with a lot of trade-offs you're dealing with a you know a community that's been using your docks for a long time dealing with those very narrow Fairway so we didn't accommodate by making it wider to accommodate the boat ramp because then you'd be impacting some of the other things which are the normal lease space so we we kept the Fairway pretty much the same width at it's okay it's about 4 feet more thank you James um to but that's not substantial but then by centering the boat ramp it really helps with some of the maneuverability um so we need to look at a little a little bit more closely during the design phase as far as where to put the labers for the boats that are waiting to come in and go out we heard some great feedback at the last two meetings but didn't make adjustments to the plan about going straight out with fingers and allowing them just to come in and Dock and then pull their boat straight into the slip but uh the boat ramp itself did not affect slip count um but there it is a tight space I'm not going to lie I mean it's it's definitely tight but it's I feel like we've made it a little better um by widening the slip widening the ramp widening the Fairway and centering it um did you all consider the power lines on when you move the trailer parking to the other side and the cost of what that might be that was a great point that was brought up in our last public meeting um that's something that we would still consider um from what I understand um the gentleman that brought that up stages his boat there for a period when he's taking it out of the water for the sailboat and so the concern was the sailboat Mass on the power lines that's something that we would consider further with design um and Engineering um you know the the um impact of that could be that perhaps the boat trailer parking stays on the north side of that drive aisle I'm not sure exactly how he stages in that area so we'd want to just understand that a little bit more before kind of doing a final design for that okay um I don't know if you I don't want to hog all the time but U let me just um may this is actually more for staff um the the permitted parking now is a is that a huge problem is that a moderate problem is that what kind of problem is that now the the the the for people to have um enough permitted parking when they're coming to get on their boat so we have uh I believe 52 spaces for 179 slips um generally the weekends are of course the busiest and during certain times where there's a lot of visitors here we do have people that occupy those spaces that don't have permits but um you know having the advantage of getting a few more spaces with the adjusted parking is going to help okay well I mean you know just kind of my editorial comment that I think you've done some interesting things with traffic flow with parking but I wrote down here but you know kind of the higher level policy decision we'd be making if we just said yes would be we would be treating the marina as the primary and our Green Space Park as secondary and I I struggle with that 7 loss of acreage I I think again it's a tradeoff I'm not sure it's a trade-off I can deal with um I'm not sure about moving the playground um if we did tradeoff some loss of Green Space moving the playground just crowds it even more that you're not going to have much space there for the activities that we like um uh so I I I struggle with that and so when I look at it and see all that parking I it's it's a it's a stretch for me um but I I get what you're trying to do especially when it comes to traffic flow because I definitely like you turn having people turn into the parking before it gets clogged up in all the the drive spot the drive space um if I may yes so I think what we presented too was kind of a what we' consider a maximum um you know what's Maybe palatable for the parking enhancements as well as still trying to keep the balance of what we remain in the park we could always peel back the parking in the U Northern lot that I showed were expanded to the East and you could take out some bays and push that further back towards the West to keep more green space that's certainly an option that could be explored during further design because I understand the the trade-off there and how that may not sit well with some folks in terms of the loss of green space I just started to ask myself this morning which was Proby crazy was what was was there first the park or the marina and you know we were a fishing community so they probably came about the same time and the library was put there and so uh but again giving up any kind of Green Space especially for parking is a struggle for me but um but I do get what you were trying to do with some of the tradeoff issues um I think let me see if I have any is the parking out by the boat club the same in your design yeah we really did not um change um anything on the peninsula except for that addition of the secured um fence adjacent to the boat slips and the addition of the captain's walk there but the upper part of the peninsula remains unchanged and I do like the changes in the walkways but I sure wish we could do something about that South Side out to the boat club because if you're going to get hit that's going to be where you're going to get hit so okay um I'll give up mine okay commissioner GAO thank you mayor uh when it comes to the fixed docks or the floating docks in regards to the fixed docks did you take into consideration sea level rise or climate change and what period of time would uh we would go through before we'd have to address raising the fixed stocks and if so is that in the cost of the fixed stocks so with respect to the fixed STS and the cost yet yes um I did take into account that we were going to have to raise it a small amount I didn't look at an exact I mean the pile piling cost is uh a small amount of the overall cost but I did add in some additional cost associated with raising the fixed dos um I also um one I didn't mention before is you know do you do have options for tide slides uh to be used as an as a potential fixed dock um enhancement um the concern that I have with the tide slides is they mainly go up and down um to address the the Anchorage of the boat but you have to add in additional piling and things like that where you're not going to be able to pile connect directly to the pier um and so uh with that the piles take up some space within the slip that is not necessarily um as uh desirable as you would like to have okay and that cost consideration that was with the initial the the initial dock but did is there anything built into the the cost proposal on the next time we might have to raise this stock is going to be 15 years and when you look at the fix stock I'm I'm concerned about what the cost is in the future of having to address that maintenance and the rising of that fix stock can you address that I mean currently the the costs that I put together were for the capital cost to put a new dock in place it didn't take into account any future long-term maintenance or any replacement value um over time okay thank you uh and when it's the the floating docks and the aluminum is there any data or is there any anything that can be shown that during storm surge um there can be the twisting or the bending of the aluminum [Music] to to destroy the use of of the aluminum dock so the the aluminum docks would be engineered uh to the wave environment that we specify um as well as the wind environment we specify um at this time there have been several aluminum docks that have gone through storms that have survived better than concrete docks and then there have been several concrete docks who've been through storms that have survived better than aluminum docks so depending upon you know the angle of the storm the aggressiveness of the storm and the locations of the use um one could be better than the other um but in my my studies and review recently um in a nice calm Harbor such as yours because of your Brak water uh the wave environment will be reduced um and as a result an aluminum dock could be um used well I believe clear water is switching over to aluminum docks as well um after their recent events with concrete dock dos and storms okay and when it comes to the aluminum floating docks there are different types of aluminum you can have the aluminum with the wood or you can have a straight aluminum Etc so for our decisions today are we just are we deciding on the type of aluminum we if we go that way or are we just deciding floating eff fixed aluminum or concrete I I I'll let someone else uh address that regarding what you're deciding on but I would tell you that during the design process um there's an evolution that we go through working with staff and others to pick the best quality product um to move forward with so I wouldn't expect that today we would be picking a specific type of aluminum dock as much as just the options Jennifer that that's correct uh commissioner G we're asking you to look at the concept floating are fixed and give us um a decision if you will on floating or F just the concept and not not the design itself that will come back to you later okay and is it safe to say that with the fix dock we have to take into consideration sea level rise if we go with the floating dock that's already taken into consideration and we won't have to worry about sea level rise in the future as it pertains to the slips uh that that's accurate yes okay all righty um uh changing to the to the ramp and that youve you've widened it 4 feet was that the distance the faway the Fairway the Fairway was widened 4T the Fairway between doc C and the South Wall um okay the ramp I believe we widened that by 6 ft if I'm not mistaken um but it was it was somewhere in the 4 to 6 foot range for the actual ramp itself okay and that width change I know initially we were talking about the possibility of a dual ramp but have have have we pushed that aside it's still going to be a single use ramp uh that is correct um and based on the feedback we received um from multiple parties and uh we went back to a single ramp um there was concern with the Dual ramp and and the capacity and how much traffic would be generated or attracting even more traffic to the area okay and did and you've also moved the ramp or centered it pushing it a little farther south is that correct um so the ramp is centered along the Fairway it's actually pushed a little further to the north from where current location is and uh just to confirm what I said earlier the the width expansion was expanded by 6 feet um to the ramp area itself to give a little more breathing room there as you're launching your but you've extended it right we have extended LED it y lengthened it right and so by that expanding the width we also lost a parking space or two on either side is that what I saw in the um currently I think there's three spaces there if I'm not mistaken we're showing um six so we might have actually picked up one or two there um I don't believe that we lost parking adjacent to the ramp because of that okay and is there a correlation between the changes to the ramp and the moving of the trailer parking um or those are two separate they're generally separate separate but um we did feel that the trailer um I the the launching and then parking uh maneuver and then going back to get the boat when you recover it worked a little better with where we're showing it on the South Side um we do feel that that could still work if the boat trailer parking was on the north side of the drive aisle like it currently is uh but we did feel that it worked a little better from a circulation standpoint the way we're showing it okay and the queuing for the boat ramp is where uh so the queuing for the boat ramp is generally as it is today which occurs in that drive AIS that runs north south parallel to the um to the seaw wall I don't think they can see the screen any longer um so that that really um remains unchanged from what it is today if you remember in our previous uh couple Concepts we had shown how that queuing could be reconfigured um based on the input that we got and the revised plan that we're showing tonight um the queuing generally stays at as it is today okay yeah because we had some heartburn about Edgewater Drive uh and so by moving the trailer parking we did not gain any Green Space by the playground correct that that green space there Remains the Same so by moving the trailer parking um one the um I guess byproducts of that is that the the entry drive into the park shifted slightly to the north so that's where a little bit of impact to the Green Space was um as we're talking about the playground and the shelter shift more towards the center of the park um that's something that we we we would propose over time when that playground actually needs to be replaced based on its service life which is several years down the road um so what that does is not necessarily pick up Green Space within the park but it does give you when it when it's proposed in its shifted location it gives you more of a green space buffer between the Play Elements and the shade structures and the vehicular traffic that you have on the South Side um to get out to the peninsula as well as for the boat trailer parking okay I am having trouble visualizing that I can't see that but okay I don't know if we're able to pull the plan back up on the screen or not I can try to articulate that better I'll I'll take a look at it later okay okay uh um I do no surprise to anybody share the vice mayor's concerns over reducing Green Space for increasing parking that to me just makes me extremely extremely uncomfortable um and I couldn't see it on the plan is the Gazebo still there yes sir the Gazebo is still in the same um location as it is today okay so that that activity space other the encroachment of the playground is still the same area correct okay and so the events that we currently have going on can continue with little Interruption correct okay and as far as and I might be getting into the weeds here but as far as moving the uh flag bow it seems to me that we've now moved that flag pole and that might be a future discussion into that Active Green Space and so now it might actually limit where you might want to put up a food tent or something like that and so I hopefully we can have a discussion on the on the flag pong a little later yeah I think um as as was mentioned you know the future phase four elements is is a um whole design process in itself we're showing something conceptual at this stage um there's a lot of room within the the park where that flag pole could be placed in a way that makes um the most sense to one maximize its view and its kind of prominence within the park but then also make sure that wherever we place it doesn't negatively impact your event space so it's more conceptual at this PL at this stage we just wanted to make sure we addressed that we're still keeping it within the park all right and I know that we talked about keeping the Marina and the park really family oriented and so I don't think it's part of our our vote tonight but I do think that the Gateway uh right there at the corner of Edgewater Main Street is is a little much for dunen I think what we have there now is fine um so I'd rather keep that the way it is than than change it to something that looks as commercial as that looked to me which is not done either um I I don't know if this fits into our discussion tonight or vote but I'm still having concerns over reduction of the 25 foot slips and increasing the 30 foot uh one just the optic of that looks and also it seems to me that we will be encouraging more people to trailer their boats and then putting more pressure on the ramp which is already used heavily commissioner is there a question there um I guess is that still on the table would be my question maybe what you guys can do is talk about why you Chang the number of slips if I remember correctly it was because of usage I'm I'm looking at Jorge and um Lori say Lori might do you want to respond do you guys want to respond to that yeah so I'll start and Lori can jump in if I missed something but basically it was to try to align our slip configuration with the uh the demand and the asks that we're getting from the community um if you remember we can a person cannot get on our waiting list unless they're a resident so these are all residents that are asking to be in our Marina right now if you are trying to get in the marina and you um have a very small vessel that can fit into one of our 25t slips uh we can get you in in a heartbeat um the further you go up in the slip sizes the longer the waiting list time gets uh so it's really to accommodate what our residents are asking for uh they are very frustrated with how long it takes to get in the marina once you get up into 35 and 50t slips um even the the 30 foot slip is very very long additionally it um is not so much about the length of the slip as it is the width of the slip so the 25 ft slips yes we're going to go from 9 to 10 ft but the 30ft slips um it's not about it I we Define them by their length but what's more important is how wide they are um so so often uh Lori is asking them well how wide is the beam of your boat um and that is what's determining so we really should almost call them 10t slips wide 11t wide slips 12 foot wide slips Etc that is really the determining Factor um and so along all of our docks and that's what what Casey was referring to when we uh look at the loss of number of slips and as you remember we started like 29 we were able to reduce that down to 18 um but that reduction is mostly from the fact that our slips need to be wider because boats are wider it's um so I know we get caught up in the 25 30 35 because that's how they're traditionally defined but really um the demand is and the need is how wide the slips are or how wide the vessels are um and that's what is causing people to be on these weight lists for so long so commissioner did that answer your question uh yeah so if I understand that correctly Lany that what you have in the when I'm going to still use is a 25 foot because that's kind of the measurement although I understand what you were saying um is it is because you had just have a lot of turnover on the 25 foot and that turnover is people renting this slip for a short time and then deciding it's easier to trailer their boat and so my thought and if that's correct my thought is that if you reduce the number of slips that's going to only in expand the number of people going directly to trailer which is going to put more stress on a ramp it is is am I being logical is that a concern um we do realize that we are a very small ramp within a very small Marine Basin um and so the Marine advisory committee uh is having very lengthy discussions about some policy decisions that we can do uh to make sure that we're accommodating our residential use of the boat ramp um and maybe not being such an attractive option for people who live outside of denan to come here uh but to use some larger facilities e either to the North or to the South so I feel like um the smaller boats do have that flexibility uh you know to either have something in the water or to trailer unfortunately the larger vessels don't have that flexibility and so what this plan does is increase our ability to accommodate the people that don't have those options um and yes we may get some additional uh usage from residents who decide to trailer instead of um keep their vessels in the marina uh but I think that we can counteract um that small increase um with some policy decisions going forward that again prioritize residential use versus non-residents thank you Lany thank you mayor I'm done that it for me yes okay commissioner Walker thank you mayor so on the uh on our summary sheet I see that the Marine Advisory board board of finance and then of course parks and wreck um contributed to this I I haven't seen anything back from the board of Finance though um the board of Finance comments were included uh with your their report as as far as the budget um so they did receive the financial numbers um and so although they didn't send a memo directly about this um theyve made their comments within the general fy2 budget comments where they put in a few paragraphs about uh their thoughts on the marina um mostly it related to the timing and um feeling like uh their encouragement for the the projects to be done on a faster timeline and their concerns about cost escal escalations okay I appreciate that that's um that's what I assumed but uh yeah wasn't clear um regarding the 25 foot slips uh I want to expand on something that commissioner GA had asked about um we we have a much higher rate of turnover with those 25 ft slips is that correct and uh what is the what is the current weight list for the 25 ft slips there are currently nine names on the list uh the majority of which I have called in the last 30 days and are not ready to take a slip so I still have an empty slip to fill um and then just to give you further insight to the 30 foot list we have 30 seven names waiting okay and we would not realize the reduction of those slips until phase three right when we do seoc I mean does it do does the number of slips reduce in the same phased manner that the the docks are getting replaced no it's certain slips sorry certain docks you're going to gain or stay level um whereas others you're going to lose um it's really the total package all the way across that will give you the the total loss so the reduction wouldn't be immediately 18 slips it would be it would be phased over the yeah so we actually Lor and I went through and have a complete spreadsheet Within um at a staff level of how many slips within each category uh we would lose with each phase so there's a reduction of three slips within doc a um there's actually a gain of a slip in Doc B but you're correct we don't really uh start to realize the conversion of the 25 to the 30 um until we get to Doc c um and so the flexibility that Lori has with that is that um as um that's a number of years away so we can go through a gradual attrition process um so it's not uh we feel like uh with the phasing uh there's never anticipated to be a scenario where she's having to you know cancel somebody's um uh agreement with the city that through attrition will able to accommodate and convert people into the appropriate size slips of the new Matrix okay um you know regarding the the ramp um proposal it it does look to me as if the traffic flow will be increased along the west side of the marina coming from north to south I mean the only way really to do it is coming in from the north making that left turn and then doing the ramp they're not coming in straight where they used to for medat is that correct oh you lost me totally I'm sorry it's okay so coming in from the north yeah so current well yeah they so if you see the way that the the parking spots are angled it's it's logical to me that where they used to come in to this from the south of the park to the ramp um well you can still do that well the so the two-way traffic still exists for General cars um from the south entrance by the the condos uh but the current traffic flow for the boat launching does not change okay that was that was my question the boats that are trailered um currently come in in front of the Harbor Master building head south because they can't come in off of edat and do a full 180° U-turn so they come in from in front of the Harbor Master building head south along a and C dock um and then wait their turn to then make a left and then back into the boat ramp um so the the traffic flow for the boat launching has not changed okay that's that's yeah that's the question I asked uh regarding the green space in the park um just based on the on the renderings um did do you have a comparison on on square footage or or whatever between the two existing and proposed um yes so the Upland park space with the existing conditions is about 2.9 acres and then the um proposed master plan conditions with all the improvements that we talked through is 2.2 Acres so so that's that 7 acre um loss that I mentioned again as as was pointed out earlier that kind of represents the extreme in terms of providing additional parking and vehicular use area you could always do something that is in between there where it's not a 7 acre but maybe you reduce the parking that we showed in that Northern lot to pick up additional Green Space or to maintain some existing Green Space by pushing that parking Edge further to the West kind of closer to where it is today but somewhere between 7 Acres for the the proposed plan of loss and what you have existing you know we could work a solution that that addresses whatever the input would be from from the commission okay yeah uh regarding the Harbor Master building um so basically this what we're talking about right now is a repair and not a replacement right that is correct it would be a structural repair of uh deteriorating elements um at this point in time and then the other component of it that isn't part of the first phase was uh some improvements uh by adding in an elevator and uh improving the meeting space on the top levels okay all right thank you for that clarification um the one thing I I want to confirm you there was a um 10% increase in B the basically the cost right if regardless of whether we went with a floating or fixed option let me let me call I've got notes Here hang on I think that's right so the the the 10% increase um is the same for fixed or aluminum floating uh the finance team felt like if we went with the highest option of the conrete floating uh that they would need to be more aggressive with the rate rate increases so it would be 20% for three years and that's in addition to the rate study and what we've already approved on the rate increases right yeah so the rate study um had a minimum of 10% increase over 5 years um in uh at the September meeting actually uh we'll have the second of uh those rate that 10% rate increases um so that was again just to maintain the infrastructure that we have here it was always prefaced that any Capital costs uh for the dock Replacements would need to be above and beyond that above and beyond correct so it's in one scenario the rate um proposed rate from Finance um is a higher rate increase over a shorter time frame um in the other two scenarios it just lengthens the time of those 10% increases okay um so in terms of the floating versus the fixed the was there an option of just simply fixing the docks without replacing them we hadn't looked at you know the cost associated with that mainly because of the reconfiguration uh looking at more of a long-term you know adjustment of the the mix use of the type of boats um Fairways you know and all of that stuff um going back and replacing at like in kind you're going to still be constrained by narrower slips um narrower walkways and some of the challenges that Lor's dealing with right now with some of the the lease space so hadn't really been considered well I you know I think I think it should be considered um you know I so I'll hold that for comments but um what do you think should be considered repair Vice replace oh gotcha can I tag on to that just for one minute um because I had that kind of similar question you know what is the the the life still for these current docks I mean if we did nothing how long did they last and I mean obviously basic repairs but I mean what what is the lifeline of them there really wouldn't be what I would consider a basic repair I mean you have a lot of lumber that's starting to split and crack you've got a lot of the connections that are starting to corrode so we would need to remove the entire superstructure and attach it to existing piles that are actually uh relatively old as well and so the piles would eventually um not last as long as the deck replacement that you've done if if I remember correctly the reason we started analyzing the fixed versus the aluminum was cuz we needed to replace doc a and we held off and this this is going back to the dredge mhm that made everybody so upset so I mean I but so back then it was I just wanted to clarify that based on your comment because i' been thinking that myself a little bit well yeah um so we you you did touch on basically a hybrid solution where you've got the fixed docks and then you've got the ramp that goes down to a floating dock replacing the finger docks um you mentioned it would be twoo narrow you have can you define what two narrow means well you're you're looking at a 24 in wide finger for your 25 ft vessel of 25 ft slips um so 24 in is extremely narrow when you go to put on a gang way with railings and everything else you're in a walkway that's going to be close to 18 in wide um it just creates a very uh I don't want to use the word on just tight scenario to try and maneuver that with gear and luggage and and coolers and multiple people and then that's for able bodied people on top haven't you seen people fall in fall in the water at the marina and that's also Sober Sober people too I've not experienced that myself but I've watched it happen yeah I'm I'm mostly concerned of you know when I looked at the title changes of 3 feet you know and then you're also looking at the height of the dock where it is um needing you know to meet normal Ada criteria you're close to a 50 foot gang way that I was looking at for your major floating docks you could go to a steeper one with a shorter length but how steep is too steep before you get uncomfortable with your users um operating a 3ot drop and a 25 foot slip you know you might only do that in 10 ft yeah I've I mean I've seen it over at the fery landing and uh when the extreme Tides it does gets gets very steep MH um uh last question um do any of your rough order magnitude cost estimates um do that does that take in the maintainability of the floating docks versus the fixed dock we we did not include any long-term maintenance costs in any of the numbers okay okay that's all I've got thanks commissioner Tonga questions thank you I have um just so you know when I start out I have concerns about several things number one uh is the C the entire cost of of the project that's been presented to us you know for example the most expensive is 17 uh $17 million in in medicine cover that's only the construction of it or the estimation on the construction so if you can kind of focus on that as I go along um and and then I wanted to ask the question that was been asked uh before um but I wanted to focus on this and that is we chose some dock si uh sizes here and we stayed with the dock sizes that we have right now we just expanded in some cases them um what would H did did you consider going for example to maybe three different doc sizes and would that have changed anything so for example for example we have we have folks that that boat that are boting in smaller boats 22s 23s 24s lots of lots of those uh so that's a 25 foot and then you have folks that are boting boting in the 28s 32s Etc a lot of those and those are those are folks that are are residents and of course AR arm Marina is a as we know um an Enterprise and it's dedicated it is it is dedicated to the residents of of the city of den Eaton as a as a benefit shall we say uh in other words if they live here they could they could go boating here um they're not living under their boats they're just boating here and and then there's of course another group that have the have the larger boats that you know anywhere from 36 up to 45 or what have you so there could be there could be or maybe 50 foot there could be three different classifications did we stick with this simply because that's what we have in the length Well normally when we do these studies we work very closely with the Harbor Master based upon demand you know what what is the weight list what is you know your current occupancy we don't always reach out unless that market is wanting to be looked at of is there a market for 80 foot vessels is there a market for you know larger vessels uh we stay in line with the Harbor Master and and the general use um so no I didn't look at anything outside of your largest vessels at 60 um some of it primarily because your channel is quite narrow um and the functioning of that Channel with all the other day docks and all those other things would become more constrained if you want much larger than the 60-ft vessels some of those look like they are U definitely challenged in the maneuverability so we had to lay out the location of those specific vessels in the easiest possible maneuvering spots but um the mix was worked together with staff I asked that question because it says the agenda and it says slip size modifications and really the only thing I really saw was something getting a little bit wider in the smaller correct the wids the wids were combinating more The Wider vessels that are coming out now yes and then I have a grave cons and and so my concern is the cost of that and then as we go as we go on um we could have a doubling of a slip within within a period of 5 years depending on on what kind of a thing that we choose here so we uh I just want you to be aware of that so if I ask a question about that as we go along doubling of the cost of a slip you mean yes yes okay of of the rental of the slip okay um and then we had and then we put down phasing operations wait a minute I'm sorry did you just say that the cost to rent the slip would double is that what you're indicating I was asking for clarity when he said doubling of a slip I wanted to understand that he he but is that what you're insinuating that it's going to cost double to rent a slip okay yeah I'm asking our staff sorry is that what you're saying so I I haven't done is that what our finance people are saying rate calculations but where did Lori go or I'm sorry Lany oh Les come on down I mean I just didn't want that to pass by y that's important to clarify M because with a 10% increase that doesn't sound like double to me there's less he's on it's 10% per year hi less I know but I'm hi uh good evening everyone yeah it's 10% per year and it would take it would take a number of years for it to double so I mean you know we've got one scenario that has 10% increases out to 2031 and then in in the projections we shared with you we've got 3% increases every year after that and then the other one that Laney talked about was 20% increases for out to 2028 and then 2029 and future years have the same 3% increases uh throughout so uh so but that's basically what we've got in our model it's 10% a year and it's 20% a year in the concrete floating dock uh you know for three years straight I okay I just need you to answer the question simply answer is yes well I'm asking him C rter rates are not are not are not doubling in one year no I mean but I'm I'm okay if it's doubling when is it going to double by can that give me a minute give me a minute to give you the answer to that okay okay you do your figuring we'll go on to the next question okay go ahead commissioner I can make a comment about that later but I'll I'll move right along so I wanted to talk about the the flow of the traffic did did you consider um a different pattern of of of flow of the traffic within the entire project I'll call it a project because we're really dealing with the marina we're dealing with the with the park uh and and the like and we've all had a concerned about about the traffic pattern there before and it would it would seem it would seem as though um from a Safety and Security standpoint security for when you have kids out and you you're secure that they're in the area but we have traffic flowing from both ways along along the marina regardless of what program we use unless we just go one way if you went one way um then you have a pattern that is a little bit safer um most certainly uh but it adds to a couple other things uh I don't know if you looked at that or not and that would be just along uh along the uh the marina wall the main main main wall there along the Park yeah we did look at that commissioner um right now the way we're showing that drive aisle that north south running aisle along the marina walk is two-way um that could be changed to be one way and in in doing that you could potentially reduce the width of that drive aisle the reason we kept it two-way um we did study it as a oneway but um if you're a vehicular or just a regular car parked um say adjacent to the park and you want to leave and then go back out um having it two-way gives you the opportunity to go out again past the Harbor Master and again it puts the traffic that way but it also then decreases the traffic congestion that you could have with regular cars and bat trailer parking on the South Side so it could be done I think it's a trade-off of just how you want to manage that um but if it were to be converted to one way we could potentially reduce that drive a with the this leads the reason the reason the second reason why I'm asking that question is at one point in time back in 2012 we talked about we talked about the fact that we have we have a ramp obviously and we're we're addressing that and I noticed that when you first started this off you're actually actually asking to to increase the the the use of the ramp or or the potential use of the ramp although we still have a parking problem so I always like to think of it as that we we putting a bunch of things in a one pound bag here we're trying to do a lot of things in this area and maybe we're trying to do too much um and and I wanted to know if you had are aware of the fact and I'm sure you I hope you are that we have a parking arrangement with the church and and currently if if we choose not to do this okay for any reason um it would seem to me like we could even we could even eliminate a usage aart usage of that ramp just reserve it for dun Eden IES and we could literally actually have all the all of the boat trailers park over in the garage and increase the parking significantly parking on both sides particularly if we were going one way through there um and I didn't know if you considered that or or not our problem is always parking um in anywhere near the downtown I don't know what garage are you talking about I'm sorry did you say you said boat parking boat ramp parking in a garage I don't know what in the church at the church oh that's not a garage okay I just want to make sure I wasn't missing something thank you it doesn't matter whether it's not a garage or not but it's a parking it was a parking area so I just wanted to know if you had had considered that I think that exact scenario is not one that we considered um I think if I understand you're proposing potentially any boat trailer parking that's currently on site gets shifted to the church lot across the street um so the the um trade-off to that might be that you have a much longer turnover time at the boat ramp as people are waiting to launch or recover because there's in a much more remote location or at least comparatively speaking that they would have to get back and forth from so then we could modify we could modify who can launch for example we could say you can have you can have 18 people launch 18 residents can launch their boat on any given day and once it's done boom uh it's over so that would be yeah sort of a policy or management I mean we we we do have a great boat ramp as you know at the SEMO boat ramp and that was that was actually uh made just fantastically super about four or five years ago and so I mean it's there I just wanted to know if you consider that I want to come back to this uh the concern that I have about about your some of your timing um the phasing I'm not sure that and so I'm asking can SE do can SE do exist that length of time in your opinion when you did the review of the of the two different of the three different docs a b and c I'm not talking about the outer ring but uh is what's the condition of what is the condition of SE do and that's put off for till what year that that that would be done in the phasing yeah the the timing I I need to look at real quick here that a lot of that was it was driven by Finance um on so 29 to 30 so it's it's going to be close with respect to that I mean the the decking itself uh is is worn and and the timeline it'll be about that time when it's going to need to get replaced for sure are you aware of the fact that like in 2015 we spent about $35,000 on on ad do yes and we were going to attempt or the or the effort was directed towards salvaging the existing Dock and and then continuing uh to use that dock for a period of time those probably made in part for the concern of of weather that we may have and it could something negative Could Happen um but then also getting getting the dock up to speed to where needs to be for for people to use so I think we're going to run into a a timing facing problem of of all the docks most likely when when just recent meetings you know I had someone had asked you know why a versus B versus C I mean a B and C are all in need of replacement they they're at their you know they're worn um they're corroding there's deterioration there and definitely needing to go the only reason why a is taking the lead is because the construction of a the the beams running um longitudinally are spaced a lot further apart than the other two docks you know when I'm when you go and look on the underside of them there's three or four beams and B and C but on a there's two to three and so we felt that you know let's get this one moving forward quickly it's not in it's not in danger of falling it's not a safety concern it's just one of those things where this one is a little bit of an older style Construction the other one's a little bit of more modern more closer space beams let's get this one changed first um I'm going to register a concern and maybe you can address this and that's the way of anation that we're we we have a number of more than $4 million uh to set that up but but ad do is going to be created before that goes into place and we have we have some swells that come in there um I I think that we we would really have to concern ourselves with with the quality of of a floating dock yes until we had the wave anation and I'm not sure what the wave anation so here's a question I have about the wave anation um we talked to a number of people back in the de back like 200 uh 16 and then a little bit later than that and we asked them what they thought about us creating a way of ination or something because we were concerned about the day what we call the day do then I'm still called that now but they were they were called the transients then um so we call them day dos because we said nobody should stay out there and the concern was we get winds that not only come everybody thinks they come from the north they don't they can come from the south right particularly when they're delivered with somebody with a with a with a name uh associated with it so they come up and they can come right up into that so I hope that was taken into consideration uh as we or should be taken into consideration in my opinion as we select what kind of a floating dock that we put on a do if we were going to put one on ad do so so as as part of the presentation I probably wasn't as clear as I could be I definitely the day docs because of the timing of when the wave attenuation would go in the commercial docks if we went floating I would recommend that they be the concrete docks because of their weight their heaviness and their ability to handle direct waves a little bit better um the ad do certainly would see some of the Waves not nearly as much as the day docks and the commercial docks would but in the design criteria put together for the floating docks we would definitely work closely with the manufacturer to make sure that they were aware of the wave environment the wind environment that would be seen in those areas uh with respect to the the Breakwater or the wave attenuation um during the detailed design phase um a coastal study is going to be needed to look at because not only will the wave attenuation um break the wave coming from the north we need to look at the waves coming from the south and the refraction within the marina we also have to look at sand transport and making sure that we're not going to create you know deposits of sand in one spot or another as a result of blocking normal currents so my next question so thank you keep keep going because I'm I'm concerned when I looked at that About Us closing our own Harbor up yeah at at this level of of of planning study we did not go into those level of details those are um pretty significant models that need to be created and looked at um looking at you know the soil disposition uh looking at the waves currents and all that stuff so we we put in a we put in a wave attenuator dis point in time identified based upon your prevailing winds but as you do get into more detailed design you would also have to look at those aspects that's one of the other reasons why we're recommending that that be a separate permit phase because we don't want to hold back moving forward with the improvements you need to do now getting environmental permits now um because we have to go through all those studies and all those pieces and parts could' rather get your permit moving and then start on that next permit in a future phase what's the probability of us getting that wave that that that that design that's presented here of of getting that accomplished it's it it will definitely be a challenge with the agencies it it really depends upon the the temperament of the agencies also what kind of venic resources you have out there what kind of seagrasses aquatic species how shallow the area is and whether or not dredging is going to be required or not required um so you know it's you can achieve just about any kind of permit you need to get but it always comes with the cost and it also comes with time same subject of of an inflow of sediment coming into into the marina directed in you you touched a little bit on that is that a concern there is a potential if you've got strong South Winds or if the currents are are going to be now blocked and currents can navigate but I I don't know enough about the entire environment of that to be able to speak directly on it um and be fair to answer that question um concerning the the width of the of of some of the transi transit to into your into your vessel um you were talking about 24 in and thir in 36 and that kind of a thing um if if people if you have more of a tendency to have smaller boats I would assume then you have a tendency to have an easier process of of of of a narrow of having a narrow Transit P so so traditionally your Fairways um you try and keep them at about 50% larger than the length of your largest vessel that's going to be using the area so as you get down into the smaller vessel areas like Doc sea over to that side that we have a very narrow channel there because you have smaller boats as you start getting towards where the 60 foot vessels are on the dock a and Commercial side it's a lot larger of a fairway there because of that 60ft vessel so yes we could fit a lot more boats in if they were all small but at the same time did you compare the Fairway between A and A and B did you look at the at the distance of that yes how close was that to one and a half times you're talking about currently I have I haven't looked at that I can't recall those numbers recently but I do remember that you guys were close to the one and a half times but you were also putting some larger vessels in there than than uh you know the of the the docks as well thank you because that's a concern I know I happen to know that and you can see there's so many moving parts and so many variables to kind of weigh in on all this stuff so the Harbor Master building before we talked about that and and you had given a number of something like 400,000 for the structure of of the facility yes and then there was another number we we created that took us up to about a million dollars yes sir um is there any reason why we have to have the Harbor Master building there or that we would need to spend that money uh that that's a hard question for you to answer because that that's a policy decision of course but so what are you doing to the building for the extra say $600,000 or whatever that number was so the proposed section for that $575,000 was uh to make it more ADA Compliant so that meeting space could be utilized by the public it would be the addition of an elevator um as well as up on the the second level the meeting room that's there um making that in the restrooms and everything upstairs a little bit more compatible and more functional for so that's that's actually optional and we could we could from policy side we could decide something different or where the harbor harbor person goes that sounds like the this you you listed five 60 foot slips yes and there's so four of them on a dock and then there's one that's over um just and the entrance coming in yes if if that if that vessel were to stay there and we ended up with a wave anation in there that's that that could be some serious navigational issues as far as I'm concerned did you did you see that have wave attenuation or don't have wave atten if you did have wave either way actually but it would depend upon the direction of the wind but um certainly there could be challenges regardless I mean without the wave attenuation uh it can be equally challenging did did you consider that as a Slip because we asked you to do that or is that would you recommend that being a slip I'm I'm asking the question because I'm concerned from the park side now the park side being having their view uh uh fundamentally changed because of of a large vessel in there I considered it as a Slip because it's currently functioning as one but separately from that it could be used for Ferry operations or other aspects as well the the walk along the from from the parking side um I like the idea of coming into that parking in front of uh I'll call it the Harbor Master building um where where we go and use that space in there I'm not I'm I'm certainly not supportive of us Paving Paradise or or affecting affecting the park and and that kind of thing so just so you know that but I do like the entrance going in there we could create that entrance today using our existing uh parking spot uh spots there we would lose some parking spots but we could we could correct yeah generally that's correct you could convert those um existing parking spaces that you have in front of the Harbor Master to a plaza or a parklet or something that could maybe provide a different function there instead of parking I think the rest of it will come in my opinion so uh thank you very much for your input okay um I have a few questions a lot of them have been asked um oh wait a minute let's let Les you want to speak to um the discussion about the 50% increase yeah uh yeah I took a look and and with the with the concrete floating docks which is the which is the scenario that has the 20% increases the first three years the uh the slip runer rates would would double in 2033 compared to uh current rates and for the for the uh fixed Dock and the aluminum version where we have the 10% increases uh that would that would that would the rates would basically double in the in 2035 2036 time frame so 10 years from now correct uh yeah pretty much n 10 years depending and would those costs would they not also increase if we just did repairs and the general stuff that you were're supposed to do they're going to increase anyway it's just a matter of how much because our yes our current our current this state of good repair we're not keeping up with current rates we're not okay because we haven't done that we have they've been extremely low for the last 10 years correct correct okay I have to make a comment I if I may um on a compound interest rate if you compound an interest rate 20% for for three years you're getting really close to a double well but that's if we go with all concrete and that's not what's being recommended no I'm just saying I'm just advising that if we did that right if if we did I just it feels a little bit I mean I rates need to go up no matter what no matter whether we go with a fixed dock replacement an aluminum dock replacement a concrete aluminum dock replacement or just do repairs we have not when we've shown in the last 10 to 15 years that we have not raised our rates accordingly with the cost of doing business to do the repairs in a timely manner so they're going up no matter what so it's not like oh they're going to go up 50% and 10 years and they're not if we do nothing they're still going up and that that was the point am I correct in saying that less yes yes I agree with that yes okay um on the uh the South Drive going over to the peninsula I know you're doing the um walkway and the fence to have privacy access for those boats where did the general public pedestrians walk in the road like they do now I mean because what they did before was they used that walk to get out of the road but if there's a car coming where do they go yeah so generally the the circulation pedestrian wise out to the peninsula would be as it is today the captain walk and everything that we're showing there with the fenced access is waterward of the existing seaw wall so I don't um you know we would anticipate that other pedestrian traffic out to the peninsula would remain as it does today okay but but you're not hearing me what I'm saying is if you're walking on the west sorry the South Road that you're going out to the boat club okay today one car can fit one you know and that's fine but if you're a pedestrian if a car is coming you get on that catwalk to get out of the way of the car if you fence it in and you're not adding any space there's no place for a pedestrian to go that's my question where do they go when a car is coming I've made that walk many times and jumped on that catwalk many times so we have to have a safe place for people to go that's a really good question and so but I just say that you don't have to answer me now but it it's a that needs to be exam right from a safety perspective because you've done such a great job looking at that everywhere else understood part of the consideration too was um putting that existing water main the red water main that's currently above ground underground which would pick up a couple feet of additional space that you have horizontally to maneuver as well okay so I think that would probably be I think in your plan when we see it again it you need to show that okay that needs to be really cuz I mean so many people walk that so many people or ride a bike mostly walking I wouldn't ride a bike down that road okay that that was one question um you mentioned earlier about our walls and that they're low the marina walls right like the South wall and the West Wall you said that they're low can you can you just expand on that like what do you mean and what would what would we have to do to raise them I probably was a little too General I apologize yeah yeah it worried me so uh many communities throughout the state are going through resiliency programs looking at you know long-term sustainability U what what are the impacts of sea level rise and flooding and so on and as a result it's Rippling into the potential as people start replacing their home walls as as communities start changing and reconstructing their seaw walls their raising the elevation of those walls as well to accommodate the the sea level rise in in the waves and so on as time comes on so um I was only sharing with you that you know we're taking care of the resiliency of the floating docks with respect to sea level rise because it goes up and down but over time you know your walls may be proven to be lower than they need to be you know 40 50 years from now you're not saying that they are you're saying they may prove to be and and thank you for asking the question to Pro that Clarity I apologize uh for misleading okay and then um the timeline there have been a lot of questions about that but the timeline I believe what you said earlier was the reason it's phased the way it is is because of permitting correct well the pH so I'm I'm looking at this um this graphic the the reason why uh phase six is Phase the way it is was associated with permitting we were trying to isolate phase six from the rest of the marina from a permitting perspective and I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt I'm I'm just simply talking about um doc a b and c and then the and then uh the South wall and the West as well like what why and the and the commercial why why wouldn't we take that off in bigger chunks it would be ideal to do all of them at once or within the same construction yeah I me you can't really do them all at once of course I mean obviously finances cash flow availability funds Drive some of that um it would be more ideal to you know mobilize a contractor and take care of things you know in in one component um or in larger components for sure so our recommendation to get as much done as you want as quick as you can um but we do understand you know the financial impacts of that to community and budgets and so on so we had to put it in some kind of order so Jennifer is that something we can was that all based on cash flow or do you do you think it's something we could consider doing a little bit if we're going to go down a road whatever we're going to do whatever the commission decides as far as fixed or floating or aluminum or concrete or any of those is it something we can try to move closer together Replacements we we can depending upon availability of Revenue moving forward um penny for pelis also is is in play here yeah as a sign project moving forward as far as the general fund expenditures as far as the the Basin goes that was really designed at the 10% increases to to kind of hold hold the the the impact or alleviate the impact on the slip renters yeah I got it and I and I don't know if there's another way to do that I mean I I would think that if we can front money that that then gets sort of paid back over time for rate smoothing or I don't know I don't want to get into the the weeds with it it just seems like it would be more icient and less impactful I mean if you've got a project going on every other year every third year every boat gets impacted by that whether it's their dock or not so I'm just I'm just looking at it from that perspective it's kind of like the dredge if you're going to do it just do it rip the Band-Aid I I understand that mayor we have a lot of conflicting priorities as you know no I know right I mean we would really have to look at it in terms of the impact on some of these other projects that that pertain to sustainability and and you know all sorts of other things so yeah I don't want to do I I don't want to put other things off I'm just all things being perfect and equal which they're not I I get that I just it just feels like if it the dragging out of it like and I'm not even talking about everything that is in this master plan I'm really just referring to the dock Replacements right yeah I mean I can certainly talk to Les about you move first first of all for what we have uh proposed for fiscal year 2025 we want to move forward on those and we can talk about subsequently whether we have additional Revenue available um I think Les has put forward a a good Finance plan is as he always does something that's attainable um but but I I understand what you're saying in terms of um you know the B pulling the bandaid off in one Fell Swoop um we'll look at it okay um yeah cuz it goes out a long way MH I'm just trying to find Doc SE and boat ramp is in 20 30 the South and West walls aren't even until 2039 I mean that's yeah mayor this is less just just want to mention that one thing we did try to do Laney and I in going through this was we we did we did try to combine the uh the boat ramp with Doc C ly thought that made sense to do those together we did try that but uh but we can we can look more and then see if there's other ways to combine things possibly well but I and I understand that there's like a lot of features in this over plan but just five or seven years ago we were talking about how we have to replace these docks and yeah it might be phased but it's been going on a long time where some of these Replacements have I'm more worried about getting the docks replaced and and getting our the the actual Marina infrastructure to be um in good shape that then I am worried about changing the parking and moving a playground and enhancing the uh fishing pier I want to do all those things I'm just saying I so that's why I'm asking the question so I'll leave it in your hands I just think we've got the fun stuff the safety stuff and then just the main infrastructure of the marina which to me has to be addressed first it from a timing that's it okay um would you guys mind if we take a five minute Comfort break before we open up to to public input I don't mean to make you sit here any longer but we've been sitting here for a little while too so okay we'll take a five minute Comfort break come back we'll hear from you and then we'll deliberate thank you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] I I'm just going to try to get everybody to start Gathering commissioner torga commissioner Walker there's Commission [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] um for you I'm sorry because we've been talking about parking right and we've been talking about the Breakwater and the day dos and you had a list of um the number of slips for the day dos was there any consideration I didn't see any mention of the ferry the ferry service that we're working on to have a permanent ferry service into where marinaa that's my understanding that that would continue that would operate on what they call the one 80 dock is that what it's called Lori um so that the long dock where we showed the 60ft vessel there would be room there for the fairy to continue operating okay and they're going to be able to get on and off from that point there would need to be an alteration out there of floating dock and a ramp we included that in our floating dock budget falls under commercial dock just to reiterate the net change of public parking would help also accommodate for the use of the ferry because people right now we don't have enough parking to accommodate anybody coming into the Eden to get on the ferry hopefully our parking use would be reduced by people coming into Den Eden by the ferry but I right but I'm I'm just saying the extra parking it we're already constrained on parking correct I'm and I'm I'll look at Jennifer I'm looking at Jorge we're constrained to begin with additional parking would not hurt but especially with the ferry service so I just want to point that out that that's you know for a parking need study I guarantee you so okay all right public input um Jim Davis your first on my list here okay I've got like three minut you got three minutes okay good name and address for the record all right U my name is Jim Davis and I'm on the Marine advisory committee and a slip priner and uh talking about the master plan this evening here uh uh the budget which has its expenses and uh you know it seems to me like it's a kind of a a double-edged sword here where we're trying to figure out what the funding options are at the same time as we're trying to figure out what the budget's going to be and you know uh what do we do that makes all the most sense to uh turn this into the place that it needs to get turned into uh the one of the gems and the crown is what I like to hear people describe it as you know uh the uh the timetable bothers me uh for sure whenever you look at how far out we have to go and when you talk about the budget I just want to point out what's going on at the Clearwater Beach Marina right now where the original quote was1 18 million and has gone to 43 million uh so I mean talk about a huge increase and of course added and a lot of additional time that's taken so I think uh it's great that we're coming to uh uh such a Crossroads at this point and getting moving but we I think time's are going to be a waste and we don't have a lot we want to make as as much happen as quickly as possible so the timetable I think deserves some real further consideration uh you know when I uh when we talk about the slip rent uh which is as a Slip owner uh I'm interested in uh for everyone it's a uh uh it's uh the the the Enterprise fund uh and as I understand how it works and I don't know everything about it but I we're supposed to be able to uh make the the funds that we collect work to cover the costs and uh you know a 10% increase over the next s years uh is still double I don't care who's doing the math it's double if you have a $350 a month slip that you're paying for right now at the end of seven years it's going to be $717 that's just math all right and uh so I mean please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see it you know and that's just doing 10% a year for 7 years which was what we talked about and what we also talked about early in the conversation was uh you know to make this a value uh for the citizens and to not turn the marina cost into a parody with the market you know I mean I mean the price has to go up and we everybody deserves to pay their share but I hope we can take some serious consideration into that factor um the uh the slip rate increases um okay I covered that um city funding um is where I'd like to see us figure out how we can go and that's relative to the uh um oh my time's up quick okay I I'll be fast I I just like I know the uh the penny for panels is something but then we uh things change if we try to use that money and it becomes uh something that the clear water has to be available to too so that's not it we I think the city needs to find the money to to take care of this Jewel better uh and and and not at the full expense or a big expense of the slip rers I think they deserve more and uh uh and and and not to be treated unfairly or just but and I just want to say we want to bury that drain pipe as you talk about it that's about as important thing and I while I'm walking away um while I'm walking away the maintenance cost that we got between now and then what are we doing to collect that money to make it happen right it's going to be okay thank you uh uh uhuh no no clapping um okay uh Larry belts Larry okay Zeke daica uh good evening mayor commission um I'm Zeke dka 736 Scotland Street um I bought the house in 79 and one of the reasons was it's close proximity of the marina and I'm a real Avid sailor boat builder and I've been listening to everything tonight and I don't agree with a lot of the particulars and the details that they're presenting and I think that if they are worked on a little better they could come up with a better um a better fix but what I've heard over the quite a while now that um we're not going to put this on the backs of the slip Runners and I think that's exactly what you're doing um I've had when I first came here it was $ a month now it's 210 I've never been against any of the slip R raises but you're taking away services and you're actually booting about 42 people out which is about 20 25% of our our our people they're moving them out and I I believe that everybody should pay their share and uh I don't see that being fairly distributed I see um the ramp guys that are using the ramp anytime they want for $75 a year and I guess they're going to move that up to $200 but that's still cheap it should be in compe in competition with seol um the large boats which are you know considered flexible you want to be flexible they use power they don't pay for that the small boats subsidize that I don't use any power on my 25- ft slip I don't use any water and the the list goes on uh Li boards the last consultant suggested we increase at $200 a year that wasn't done um they don't pay utilities the larger boats that have Shore power they're not paying for utilities and then when you get to the fishing pier um those people out there are free and I think that if we come to the the the size of this operation now and what we're doing I think everybody that uses the marina needs to pay pay their fair share and that includes the park any events any anything that goes on there's a percentage that has to be funneled towards the marina because that's what they're there for um and I think that's about all I got to say okay makes sense thank you okay Curtis neelson Curtis all right Harold come on down Harold showmaker 959 Virginia Street slip runer U Boat Club member former uh Marine advisory member my concern is I want to get straight on what these increases are we're we've talked about we're in a 5-year uh plan for increasing 10% of year which the first year has been done so at least four more 10% increases which will take us until 2028 in the presentation for the aluminum floating docks it was 10% increases starting in 2026 through 3031 is that an addition to the five that we're doing now or is that a continuation yeah I don't think I know I don't think we know the answer to that because when you're looking at that you're well over 100% increase in slip RS okay okay thank you thank you uh Ron conade good evening I'm Ronin Kate uh 1241 Royal Oak Drive and dun Eden I've been a slip runner for quite a few years I think uh and uh I'm on ad do now um just most of the concerns were already uh voiced here uh of course all about the uh slip renders and the subsidizing and that um concern I have two of them one is have you taken into account the uh structural Integrity of the break walls today and what they'll be in 10 years from now uh it looks like you're going to do a lot of work to those uh at least the capping and stuff like that with sidewalks that type of thing and nobody's mentioned anything about the Integrity of the seaw walls that we have now uh I know they constantly get repaired uh another my last concern my only other concern was about the uh repairs to the dock uh I know John brought that up a couple others uh brought it up uh I'm concerned about that because I think that that's the wrong way to go and to look at it uh you've talked about repairs we've done repairs over the last 20 years that I've been here I know uh in the dock uh docks are just deteriorating uh more and more I think just throwing money at them to just get them up to Cod or just to uh repair them is the wrong way to go I think we need a Perman a solution that's really all I wanted to bring up okay thank you Eric thank you for the opportunity to uh to speak and um you know I think overall it's an impressive plan you guys have to make a lot of tradeoffs it's difficult I think my only point is a lot of great points have been made but please consider the configuration to not so dramatically impact the 25- Ft slips really two big reasons there is just accessibility for the residents um you know the whole world's getting a lot more expensive now and we continue to make things more difficult and Out Of Reach um you know granted there's some people I know that can afford the bigger boats but there's a lot of people off of a big base of 65 that uh I feel like that's part of our culture you know just that accessibility the other thing is and I know all of us spend a lot of time at the marina um trailering I think the ramp is a great thing I I don't want to get rid of the ramp but the reality is is trailering creates a lot of other challenges and difficulties so if we get rid of 24 to 35 25 ft slips that means we're going to have more trailering you know more potential conflicts with the kids playing in the playground more potential conflicts with the pedestrians and remember to the mechanics of trailering is usually get out you park your boat there for a minute you're kind of not a minute it takes typically longer you're trying to get all the things ready you're trying to get the boat in you do the same thing when you're getting out so accessibility and trailering um you know I don't want to get into but you know as far as data um I just did some checking with the largest boat club in the country and not to say that our Marina is about a boat club but to me it's a good proxy for the kind of boats that people want to be part of and you know for example I checked multiple Club locations and I can't find 30 plus foot boats um you know on pontoon boats you can put 10 to 12 people Bay boats you know six people deck boats 10 people so again I'm just trying to give you a little bit of data as far as the type of boats that people I think want accessible are those smaller ones and not necessarily the the giant ones um so again overall thank you for the opportunity to speak great that you're looking at revamping and updating the marina but you know don't make uh costs more Out Of Reach for the residents you know as uh we enjoy the great amenities the city has to offer so thank you thank you all right uh Craig poo hi mayor Commissioners Craig pedo 1545 Linda Lane you know I just moved last week and I specifically stayed in dun Eden so I can keep my boat in the marina I had many other options to go to but to live in deden it's really special that we have that Marina so I agree with everybody else that spoke uh you know our rate's going to go up considerably which it should you know we've been pretty blessed with with a low rate but it's going to get astronomical and I don't think that we should be on the hook for all that logistically I'm on a do that's going to go first if I understood correctly is no more slips 35 slips on a do when it's done where do where do we go the what are the slips that are on the South side let me get any questions and we'll reason asking this so I leave the first question is where do I go with my 32t boat Lori did a great job when we dredged but that was quite a while ago there's no places to go so let's just say Ad do doesn't support a 35 ft slip anymore B Do's next I can't come back I could be tally out of the marina for a year and a half with some of my other boat mates and we're not going to be paying rent so you're going to be losing Revenue so I think logistically I don't think that part's been thought out very well and I do agree with you Julie that we should do the marina all at once cuz that's really what needs done so I just really like you to consider the logistics of where you're going to put us yeah and how special it is thank you for your time thank you okay anybody else want to come forward before we come back to deliberation come on down give us your name and address for the record thank you mayor and I will endeavor to be shorter than Mr Davis was I'm fairly Brinkley 644 ladden Avenue I have a chance as a national race officer to visit marinas all over the country I clubs all sorts of facilities and I I see mistakes that people have made and I see details that you all have have missed in in what you're doing and I just ask you to to really get in and and dig through the the pages for example your first presentation you eliminated golf carts from the whole Marina site uh your your last presentation you built a nice you need to talk to us your last presentation um you had a an increase in the boat ramp but you didn't have any place for the boat to go so you launch the boat and there's nothing to tie it to no way to walk off of it there're little details like that come to the marina after a heavy rainstorm you got pipes like that flowing into the marina and now we're talking about dredging well I know why what we're dredging out is what we're we're pumping in the uh ladders to come out if you're overboard you swim across the freeway over to the point get to a ladder climb up the ladder up the seaw wall and on the uh East Side you you run into a metal fence so these are times to look at that one of the first things that we did uh uh before the the dredging debacle is to pull the launching ramp off of the West Shore we we pull that out if you look where we used to park cars it's underwater now that seaw wall is is right there on the waves there's a utility pipe that big haven't heard a word about anything on the the West Shore there so all the work that we do you talk about wave action look at look at what happened when you pull that concrete launch ramp out on the west side that that sand went away you build a retainer wall behind the day docks that's going to catch that sand I think John you referred to that you're you're going we're going to fill in our own dredge work if we're not careful if we don't watch what we're doing so that's that's just my my my well I I'll finish with one last observation my dock which which I know I don't know that much about the others but both in of the bolts that hold the stringers to the pilings have corroded off so what you have instead of a a uniform structure you've got stringers you've got deck boards you've got pilings and you got nothing holding them together I would uh compare that to a straight pin if you were working on piece of cloth versus a safety pin so I just beg you please look look at what you're doing look at these little details Now's the Time to get them don't end up with the c water Community Sailing Center we've got a 200t dock that comes out to the Ada floating dock and it's 7 ft above the water it's useless okay thank you thank you anybody else okay to answer the question in regards to um you know where do we go and the construction obviously this I mean I'm just going to make the statement this is a a vision the details have not been designed yet or thought through but there will be something thought through yes yes mayor as as um they've indicated in and elany mentioned earlier this is this is the master plan you know from that that then becomes you know once with there's consensus Direction provided then the details will go into the the actual design of those uh particular improvements on on whatever sequence we do on which stock and in what order but and you'll be working in the details you'll be working with our boat owners because I do think it was a interesting perspective if there isn't a 30 whatever foot slip so the slips that are on the south side of Doc are going to be 45 ft slips and the reason why we went with a 45 ft slip is because there was nothing in the marina between 35 ft and 50 ft so and there's a lot of boats in that size range that they don't need a slip that's necessarily 35 or 50 ft rather so um to answer Craig's question his boat can still go in a 45t slip it's not that he's going to have to have to have to go in a 35t slip it gives us more flexibility to fit the boats properly in the proper slips okay and then as well as the 25ft slips um we've got more flexibility there are boats sticking out of the slips right now that you know their Motors are hanging out they can go in a 35 or a 30ft slip then the smaller boats will still it'll actually make more 25t slips become available when those bigger boats in that size range go into a proper SLP so okay okay um let me just see if there was there was a question too is about uh examining the structure the structural Integrity of the walls so the the existing wall has been addressed on the west side and part of the South Side in the past um we've had some repairs that were done um the other portions of the wall in my observation were in reasonable condition um they certainly do not have a very long life we're not talking another 30 years you're going to need to address those walls um I have not um did not contemplate that the the marina improvements were going to extend out as long as they did due to financial reasons and so you know the wall was not really addressed as a major concern because we felt that over time as you went through your result icy programs those walls were going to get addressed in in due time if that makes sense I mean as you're getting into it yeah but then it doesn't give us a clear picture of the cost correct so how do you feel about that Mr engineer well mayor as he indicated we we've done several improvements to the to the walls over time over the last 10 years that I've been here um but obviously if we're going to to look at the timing and the sequencing of the recommendations and what what we can afford or what other funding sources might be available we would then look at incorporating some of that work depending on the timeline of the overall project but to his point if it's going to extend out over certain period of time then we we'll need to incorporate some of those improvements as well okay thank you Jorge um Jennifer as we go to um deliberate I think we all have some questions on the phasing of this okay and then you know the effect of the rates and stuff are you okay with us just deliberating on uh whether we go with uh fixed or floating and then ask you to come back with a possibly different phasing does that give you what you need for this moment well I I'd like to look at and I need less to to chime in here as far as what we're adding to the fiscal year 2025 budget so um and I we're going to need your permission to move forward with what we've baked into the budget um tonight as far as a fixed and or um or floating yeah I mean we would like to have that direction from you as well um and then the rest we can can certainly look at uh an expedite of phasing that's uh um you know I I would just need to sit down with yeah you got to think about it I know you can't answer it that's why I'm trying to leave it a little bit flexible for you you may come back and say can't do anything different I I don't know but I think we're I think we all have a desire that it might be a little bit different yeah I I I I'm hearing that um and we would just need to explore other options available to us I'm as you know I'm I'm always very concerned because the other expenditure is a general fund expenditure right and and um you know that that concerns me as far as expedited phasing here uh and and as I said some of the other uh we have a lot on our plate moving forward um as far as capital projects go and and uh you know I think that we just need to be very careful and methodical about the impact on those other projects of any decisions that we make regarding the the phasing of the marina okay and what's one question what hang what's in the um 2025 budget that you need direction on is that just design Les what did you have in that yeah in the 25 budget we currently have design costs for the Harbor Master building and design cost for the uh the pier in the 25 budget in in the general fund yeah but that money in Theory could be applied to design of A and B and C doc right it's I mean it's just money it's just a placeholder could well I mean we know that we need to do the Harbor Master building and we know um that we need to do other infrastructure improvements and that's why we incorporated in 25 they're in that first phase that that we know that we need to do so okay I'm not sure how we how yeah no I understand I understand I do okay uh commissioner or vice mayor um mayor one thing uh I wanted to clarify there was a question about whether the 10% was in addition to the 10% that was proposed it's a continuation of that 10% is not in addition to okay thank you vice mayor you're welcome no I think we've talked about this but could you clarify because actually I got some input from a citizen on this about Grant potentials for any of this kind of work have we started a look at that do we think there's any hope for anything like that I think the the line share of the grant that's available um it would need to be to to touch upon sustainability and resiliency and in that within that framework there might be granting you know available for us there's a lot of infrastructure Central infrastructure grants out there um we haven't started to look into it the city commission has uh authorized the grant writer which which we're very grateful for in fiscal year 2025 so it's certainly something that we'll put on his or her plate to to start off with right away as far as what what we can realize for GR possibilities thank you okay so back to what we're trying to accomplish tonight what you need from us tonight am I go right so the so the main Concepts then the the the floating do versus fixed um you know the concepts of the master plan given that that we are going to bring it back to you um item by item um the you know the the the parking I I understand that you want us to look at not you know decreasing the the open space in the park and that's something that we would work with kimley horn on um and and really for tonight it's just those general concepts fixed or floating so that we can move forward with a finance plan uh the boat ramp itself the configuration of the boat ramp whether or not the commission is comfortable with that moving forward um those Concepts that that are are more immediate in terms of budgetary considerations okay so let me go back to my colleagues and I'll do that right now fixed or floating let's deliberate on that everybody okay with floating of some kind no mayor if I could chime in and not knowing all the grant possibilities out there I I would just say to Jennifer's point is there we might have more success if we're pursuing a resiliency type Grant with a floating scenario versus a fixed right but that would be my only input but not having researched the grants great gotcha Jeff there I am uh um for a concept we don't know the exact price or anything like that right um floating vice mayor yeah I I mean I'm on floating I'm I'm trying to understand the other side of that um so maybe I just want to say they I look at these as two different decisions one is the sustainability of a long-term asset and the other is fair rates for the marina slip renters and and somehow I I feel like they're being tied together and and I I'm not seeing them we've got to be fair to our slip Runners but I think we need to make the best long-term sustainable decision for what did Jim call it it the uh the jewel in the crown one of the jewels in the crown so I I don't want one to drive the other I just I just want to make the best long-term sustainable decision for our Marina and figure out what's fair to our slip Runners after that I mean maybe we have to have a reset here but um anyway that's I'm with floating can I is it possible for me to make a motion oh well I was just going to say Where I Stood too what's that let me can I stay say absolutely yeah okay well I'm with floating as well for sustainability purposes and I mean we're spending we're increasing our flood attenuation by Leaps and Bounds financially we've got full neighborhoods flooding twice as bad as they ever did we've got to understand that the marina is going to be do the same thing and the only way to work around that is is floating docks to to I'm not going to make an opinion about whether they should be concrete floating aluminum floating people much smarter than me can figure that out but floating and not fixed so if what I wanted to do commissioner is um go through each point that Jennifer just mentioned and try to gauge where everybody is and then get a final motion to encapsulate that if that's okay with you yeah that's okay but eventually I do want to understand if I'm missing something CU do you want to say why you're supporting the fix well thanks um no actually I'm going to tell you right now I'm not supporting the fixed or the float at this particular moment I am supporting what I I'm not convinced that we have done everything with regards to getting a cost for the repair and the thing that worries me is is the fact that you know everything that I've seen everything that I've heard there's some criticality associated with this that brings into question the whole phasing plan and but the the the challenge that we have specifically relates to the fact that the repairs and the fixes are are fairly critical and what I don't want to do is delay any action because all five how many know five seven years we've been talking about doing a and C Doc and we haven't done it and I think at this point and then you know the the repair part this is why I think that we need some sort of rough order magnitude estimate on this to rule this out it wasn't done as part of the master plan but what I'm also concerned about is is the the affordability costs are I I'm very concerned with these cost um and uh the scope and the cost of the master plan is it's it's big the um now I had a commanding officer when I was serving the Navy have you have to have a plan so that you've got something you can deviate from so for the purposes of the plan yeah I I absolutely agree with that uh what I don't want to do is price our residents out of this this is an amenity for our community and our residents and uh I I just would like to know what the cost of the repairs look like and if it's even feasible because I'm going to assume that there is an underlying infrastructure foundation on those docks you and I'll I'll be honest with you if you know if if the situation was different and the the fact that the master plan at this point has raised more questions with me than you know it it answered um if if that was not the case I'd be voting for The Floating docks you know I get it but in this particular instance I think we need to take just a pause we need to get some answers very quickly to the the concerns and the questions that were raised and let's let's move on to the next step so that's that's where I'm at so Jorge to help the conversation I mean I know that you all looked at Doc a five seven years ago right and the only reason we um held off was to do this sort of broader study is that correct yes and I mean we've been making some repairs over time but some of those have been customatic to be honest I think to to the point that that um kimley horn brought up earlier is um and and they we can certainly look at at doing an order of magnitude on on what those repair costs would be but I I think based on the structural analysis that they did as a part of this master plan Endeavor not only with the Harbor Master building but with the different docks um the concern was that any repair at this point given the condition of the substructure and the existing piles uh the investment would be such that it would not be cost effective when compared to either doing a new fixed dock or a new floating doc scenario that would' be putting a substantial amount of money into rebuilding the existing so you're saying you're saying there was a structural analysis done can you elaborate there was an an assessment just visual we didn't run calculations and do an analysis from that perspective I I guess I to put it in a kind of a quirky way um when you're eating chips and salsa and you run out of salsa and then you ask for more salsa then you run out of chips and you're going back and forth if you go and you replace your superstructure and then the piles are old then after a while your super structure is newer than your piles you're eventually going to have to replace your piles and then you've got a super structure you have to rip off that's newer just to put in new piles and so it's almost chasing your tail at some point in time the pile conditions are reasonable but they're old so of the assessments that were done by previous people have indicated adding jackets doing repairs to piles and so on so uh from a upfront cost it's high from a long-term cost you're going to have a longer life out of putting in a new dock as opposed to repairing and fixing the beams to eventually have pile problems where the beams are newer than the pile and that's for all the docks you're referring to that's correct that's your opinion that's your opinion as our city engineer including the fishing pier especially fishing okay does that help you at all you want to think about it a little bit well I'm not sure it helps me um and your biggest concern is the cost that's really your biggest concern well no actually yeah cost is definitely probably the largest concern the other one is a solution I know you're mik yeah cost is a concern um but but the other concern is is um and we've talked about this are how these things are phased because what I keep hearing is the criticality of the material condition and maybe maybe repairing them is the shortterm Band-Aid that ultimately will not result in a sustainable solution and I I get that um and I certainly respect or opinion I understand your assessment and in that um but let me ask a question how long how how much longer would it take just to go just run a little bit more of a detailed assessment get some cost associated with that come back so now we've got that option in comparison with The Floating and the fixed Ducks I I don't have an issue with doing that and coming back with my opinion on that it's I I don't want it to take how much time though is what he's asking a couple weeks probably would be the minimum yes I think that's mayor if I may if if that would make the commissioner more comfortable I'm I'm certainly comfortable with doing that and and at the same time if the determination is ends up being the the floating thing or whatever whatever it ends up being at that same time Jennifer I'm assuming that between you and Les you can come back with a different phasing plan or an I'll just say adjust to see if the phasing plan can be adjusted I don't want to assume that it can but y all have a can have that conversation over this next couple of weeks as well right yes we can do that yes okay commissioner Tor you want to add anything to the fix versus floating I do I can and I will okay the the floating I love a floating dock um I I wrote down I do not have the confidence to vote on this at this point um and that was going to be my opinion when I was when I was asked for it um I'm not supportive of of some of the other changes we're talking about but just staying on the on the floating versus the fixed um we have a fixed stock currently I am pretty much aware of the condition of that I wrote down fix it now fix it now if it can be fixed and then go in and do a and do a plan like this keeping in mind that I'm not going to vote on a on a on a floating dock because we had that discussion a little bit ago and until we have that wave ination in there I'm I'm not convinced and you weren't either um about putting a and the floating dock on on a dock for example were you well I'm I'm not uncomfortable doing it I just feel that it will need to be designed to handle the expected elements so there we go so there's there's some issues and I'm aware of it I'm I'm very much aware of it I've watched it I've seen it so that's a concern so if there's if we can if we can go and take a look at this and even if it it it's not pouring bad money after bad money or after good money it's it's being it's being logical in our approach to this to make sure that we can put in the proper the proper docks for what we want to put in in a proper sequence so I'm I'm not I'm not ready to vote at all and if it and if it can be saved even for a couple years for a certain amount of money I'm I would be supportive of that at at this point in time for the Basin I have all my other things but just for the Basin for the docks and the basin thank you all right so what in conclusion I think Jorge and you guys you're going to talk you're going to determine whether it's there's an Roi in doing a fix because what we don't want to do is throw good money after bad when we could just be replacing it and that's that's the analysis that needs to happen it's not Kick the Can down the road we've kicked this can down the road Road for 15 20 years so we all know it we're all deeply involved in in the marina or have had votes there or spent a lot considerable time there so I think that's the analysis that my colleagues are looking to see does that make sense but I think you do have a consensus the three of us are really would like to see the floating dock option from a sustainability and a long-term sustainability perspective for a marina cuz there is a longer life to that than there is for wood we all know that um but I do appreciate commissioner Walker that we absolutely you know put the nail in that coffin that you know there's not a different way but yeah appreciate that we because I you know I worry about money too but I want to and I want to do it the right way so oh and I I appreciate that I I think with I the the intent would not to be delayed this any further and personally I I I like floating Docks but I want to make sure that we have left no Rock unturned here because it's this is this this is a fairly significant decision when it comes to the accessibility by our residents and that okay um I think what was the other things Jennifer I think it was parking I didn't get parking the parking ramp oh and boat ramp all right so let's talk about the boat ramp first um the concept this isn't all the detail right right is everybody okay with the concept of straightening that channel out whatever for the boat R I am not at this point okay vice mayor I mean um it seems to make sense to me I don't think it's ever been a great boat ramp I absolutely agree that this is all about the residents um we don't need to make a better boat ramp for anybody but the residents and so I'm all for some policy decisions on some of that uh but it seems to make sense for our residents and when we talk about affordability and access that's important commissioner yeah I I don't I mean i' I've thought about this from 3 60 Dee perspective and I don't see a a downside to this but I do want to just make sure that the Marine Advisory Board gets on that the policy and process that um you guys mentioned um that that will be an important part of this to really make it work so commissioner gal thank you commissioner uh yeah I'm I'm in favor of making the the boote ramp better um my the concern is the the steepness of it wi and it seems to be functional now as as far as width goes uh but if it makes it better for our residents I'm all for it but be but because it's just an enhancement I'd rather focus on the Integrity of the of the the Basin and and the other docks and so if that needs to be postponed I'd be fine with that yeah but if it it's part of this structure then yeah I'd be in favor of of the enhancements yeah I am too my family has used that boat that boat ramp you got to be a pretty Master boat Docker to use that thing I mean it's so short you're you're truck and literally get stuck it's so bad it I mean you know it's like why bother having one I mean it does get used but it's bad and if you're going to take the time to fix things and make things work not even you know perfect just normal normal operation for people um and I mean it was put there used to be a building there if anybody hasn't seen pictures of our Marina there used to be a building there so that boat ramp was done weird because there was a building there now it's going to be done the way it should have been done to begin with so definitely supportive of that um commissioner torga did you have anything you wanted to try to say about that with not wanting to do it yes um I all along I've I've thought that that perhaps a better direction for us to go with that boat ramp is to consider that boat ramp for the use of the boats that are in the marina and that we put a limit on on the number of people that can use that boat ramp per day and that would be really restricted to uh to our residents right and I think they're I mean that's I I don't know that they're going to all those degrees but I mean they're talking about a policy that would do some of that so if they have a policy like that would you be supportive of making the improvements of the boat program I don't know that it needs to be done um honestly uh so at this point in time I I don't want I don't have as a user of that boat ramp I can guarantee you it needs to be done it's terrible um but okay I use a lot of boat ramps in my life well no I know you use a lot I'm talking about that particular one I understand the drop off is terrible um okay and then the third thing was the parking Jennifer I okay um what I was going to ask is to my colleagues and I'll look at you too Jeff um I don't I don't think the ferry has been considered in this plan and I think it has to be when it comes to our needs um I'd like to see whenever you do come back tell us what we do need in parking to accommodate what we need accommodate when I look at that area I spent a lot of time down there especially on the weekends I'm not talking about Festival in the Park days I'm just talking about normal weekend days the conflicts from pedestrians and cars is so bad you take your you literally I mean and especially when visitors are coming and they don't really know where they're going that's like a nightmare the need for parking in that area there has to be some compromise and I think that the fer has to be considered in all of it you must feel strong since you started out talking before I did letting anyone of sorry I'm tired well you know this is my most UNC uncomfortable spot um you know and again I think that you you actually said it well I mean I'm about the basics here what do we need to do and what do you make sure that we've got we're fixing what we need to fix and we're doing it in a good long-term the Right Way sustainable for the future beyond that you know we got time to mold this through and think about it um I agree with that I'm not overly comfortable with the 7 Acres loss of green space I think it's too much I do agree that it is a traffic flow nightmare down there um so some traffic flow and I don't know maybe there's an in between space where we don't lose so much green space but we can still have some of the benefits of that I personally don't think the playground needs to move and if it doesn't move it doesn't feel like you've crunched all that green space together so there's not enough room for events um because I think you could protect the barrier especially if if the parking gets moved so I you know but again I think we've got time to mull this piece through um and get the best benefit from both and not lose that amount of Green Space um because I can't stand to lose Green Space so so but there's a lot of benefit to getting some traffic flow going there so so do we just want to leave it with staff to a it's not like the top thing right now the top thing is the docks right and we're concerned about losing green space but we know we need more parking we know we need more vehicular circulation safer vehicular circulation and pedestrian circulation and now we're going to have a ferry service that could end up being 7 days a week right now it'll be 4 days a week but that's how the Jolly Trolley started and if it becomes seven days a week even more parking is going to be needed you know so we can have staff take a look at all of that and not really make a decision yet well that okay with everybody you know that can I think can get kicked down the road a little bit the traffic thing excuse me traffic thing is the most important thing and I agree I I I really do not want to lose I don't want to lose the park there and it's a great Park and we've do a lot of things in that Park it's a it's wonderful I think the traffic the traffic change and flow would be significant and I even like the idea if we could if we could put those trailers over at at the church and we could create par parking on both sides so we could create a lot of par exuse okay so we're not ready to make a decision on the playground and the je oh sorry Jeff I'm getting tired forgetting you're there and you're you're very Unforgettable so I've been told yes um no uh kicking the can kicking the can down the road on on the parking I'm I'm in favor of cuz yeah I'm right now I'm a hard no on that I understand that there's conflict between pedestrians and cars I don't see how increasing um parking uh addresses that issue um all this going do is invite more more cars into the area so um I think it needs to be looked at I think it needs to be looked at through the lens of a pedestrian and what can we do to the manag manage car traffic instead of managing pedestrian traffic um so anyway so I'm fine on pushing that down the road yeah and I I don't think we disagree I just think you can't keep adding services to an area and not provide the infrastructure needed to support those services and I think we're being blind to do all this other work to keep an area sustainable and then not address a need that we know exists so I think it's a balance and understanding what the need really is and I don't think it has to be decided today well well said it is well said but I will say I am going to say something because and trust me I'm all for the fery but understand we're adding something to an already packed in thing that's going to add more packed in problems so let's just be mindful that you know at some point something may have to give that you can't do everything for everything okay sorry oh I don't disagree right I I don't disagree okay Jennifer you got enough I think my brain's dying it's 9:30 so so just to to preserve your brain as an overview um we are going to um um come back to you with f the review of repair versus replacement of docs a b and c doc one thing I want to be very clear about is that in the marina um Enterprise fund we have designed and and and Les had had spoken about this earlier designed for replacement of Doc a uh in fiscal year 2025 so when when Les said when we said that I'm looking forward to move forward looking to move forward with um the budgeted items of FIS year 2025 that includes doc a design doc a but when I is that correct Les did that I think that's what he said earlier and so I just want to be very clear of what I'm asking he changed clothes Chang clothes he's done there's probably a beer back there that he's going now he turned his camera off hey Le did you Le I'm sorry do not go back and put your white shirt on nobody cares did I see the calonia Insignia back in the background I'm busted yes yeah you're busted it's the design of DAC right Les yes okay but again it's it's an amount of money that can still be used towards whether it's doc a or towards doc b c and you know it's just a it's just a it's a placeholder right yes right I wouldn't want you to remove it well in this instance though what I'm saying mayor is that it is not it is for design of replacement of Doc a gotcha yeah so and and we want to move forward with that we we know that doc a needs to be we need to address doc a and that's been we've known that for a long time yeah yeah we've known that for a long time okay so you're going to come back and well can I get a clarification on that so the two week it's going to take to get an Roi we lose the money for Doc a is that one yeah and and that Mak commission no we don't what what we're not taking it out you leave it there if I may if I may mayor what what what what commissioner Walker is saying is is that we can certainly in those two weeks assess doc a we'll keep the money in the in the budget uh for design of Doc a replacement of Doc a if if we come back and I really don't think we will quite honestly because we've known for years it has to be replaced um uh if we come back and say it can be repaired and what the return on investment for that repair is versus replacement makes sense to the commission then we can reallocate the that funding but I don't think that's going to happen quite honestly we can certainly do that evaluation commissioner in the intervening period right because at any given time we can reallocate money because we don't want to do something stupid right called a budget adjustment yeah exact exactly which we do all the time we do it all the time unfortunately well Jennifer is under the way I think what Jennifer just tried to tell you is it's got to be replaced no matter what study we do but we're going to ask them to look at it so that you have a more of a level of comfort you I greatly appreciate that thank you see it has to deeply be looked at I mean I'm I want to be convinced Jennifer need to be convinced jge we will do the assessment that we can in a two two we period that scares me oh my God I I wanted to really say something funny Jorge have you ever been able to convince commissioner Toro about anything with the marina and I am being funny because you because these two fight in an effort for um to be uh to maintain my my employment I I refuse to answer that question okay Jennifer do you have what you need I think so yes mayor thank you and you got your boat Bram four to one yes so there you go and we're going to make final comments oh are we still going to talk more yeah oh my God okay vice mayor okay well because I'm just going to summarize my statement here first of all there's been a lot of talk about caring about money and I care deeply about cost and money and so again I'm just going to repeat that um you know it's about the basics and it's about the long long-term historical preservation of one of the gems in the crown and that doesn't necessarily relate to being unfair to the rate you know to the slip runers you know we also need to be fair as we get this thing upgraded for sustainability and resiliency thank you commissioner TWA General comment about the entire project you don't have to no she just she wanted to so I have to give you the option no thank you very much no I and and as I've said before I appreciate the fact that we're looking at this and and I've been anxious since 2015 when we first spent the money on that dock but as of right now I think we need to make sure that we um take a look at what we what we actually have there I'm concerned that some of those docs certainly can't wait wait that long if we try to do it in that segment um and on the other hand I really don't I really do not know the condition of the walls and I do not know the condition of the docks and if and if they can be if they can go a bit longer then I'm all for that at this point in time so that we can then get ourselves uh in line I haven't asked every question I want to ask about what what are we talking about really when we're talking about the aluminum side of it I've had I've had a big boat on on aluminum docks I've had a big boat on floating aluminum bo uh docks I've had had them on on a uh on a on a regular wood floating uh dock but I I really would want to know a lot more than than what I know at this point in time I'm also concerned about about I would get more deeper into uh into the estimation of some of the costs here uh and that that's kind of difficult but uh I would not want to go onto this Pro start on this project and find ourselves way way way in the uh overboard on this so so it's a big concern and the whole Project's a big concern and I and I I don't think we get I felt like I was getting rushed into this I don't want to be rushed into it but I do want our docks in a great condition I think think there's safety and about a traffic flow down there and I certainly don't want to lose lose the park so thank you commissioner G you know when it comes to having experiences there's a lot to be said about the sounds and everything uh you know for all of us that remember the sound of a chalkboard in the classroom chalk on a chalkboard right and you hear those and it transports you to a certain place or thing and what I'm getting with this is I absolutely hate aluminum bridges in Parks just kills me the sound of walking on aluminum when you're in a park is just crazy to me um and so also I feel that way about um the the the the the docks at the marina I would love for them to stay as much wood as possible walking on wood at a marina is the sound of somebody walking on docks at a marina uh so if there's a way to incorporate as much wood into aluminum I certainly would appreciate that uh to me this whole project has been about uh infrastructure and repair and maintenance uh from my understanding uh DC has been in need of repair for quite some time so I'd be shocked to have a report report comes back that that says otherwise um other than that we spend the money where we need to and our residents deserve um a a quality Marina there shouldn't need to be worried about their docks as they going out to onto their boat to enjoy the day um but anyway I think the approach that we're taking now is is good so thank you mayor thank you commissioner commissioner walker uh I think I've made all the comments I needed to okay thank you um hey Jeff have you been out to CAD I have that's a great Marina yes it is it's all aluminum floating docks that just tells me it could be better um well and even that wood stuff that you were showing it's composite it's not really wood might reduce the sound of the aluminum um well I think none of us have said this but I do want to say Lori Jorge Laney who had to leave you guys Jennifer um well we all have a lot of concerns CU it's a major 20-year project is what it is um I think the concept's fabulous forget the money part and all of that um in general you know I think it needs tweaks but I think it's really good and I mean our marine Advisory Board said that you know I think there are tweaks that need to be made um what I don't want to see us do is you know just keep kicking the darn can down the road we have to be brave leaders this Marina has needed some help for a very long time and because we've waited our own fault because we've waited so long it's going to cost even more and the more we kick this can down the road the more it's going to cost now there are all kinds of ways we can supplement these costs it may mean we have to give up another project I don't know I don't know what the answers are I do I I hear the concern um I don't know what all the answer but I think the concept on a whole if you looked at the whole picture that you laid out of all those changes they're all necessary changes every one of them are things that we've all thought about over time so again with small tweaks I'd love to see this in 20 years and and know that it's maybe it's not the jewel in the crown maybe it is the crown you know um so I know you guys have worked all hard and I want to acknowledge that and recognize that we are not trying to be difficult we're trying to address all the different things because a lot of people care about this Marina um including every one of us so but good job thank you we are adjourned you can clap now thank [Music] you e