##VIDEO ID:xg-SlHZv8G0## than [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] oh [Music] welcome everybody uh we've got a lot of young bright shiny faces in the room so exciting um we'll call this meeting to order of our September fifth City commission meeting if you'll join us in the invocation and the Pledge of Allegiance uh led by Jennifer thank you um let's have a moment of silence amen amen I pledge allegiance to of the United States of America and to the for it stands one nation God indivisible liy and justice for all okay let's get right down to it we want to celebrate Vince Gizzy would you please come forward and tell us about the wonderful things greater d and little league is doing thank you mayor City commissioners yeah tonight is a very exciting night uh I'm Vince gizy Parks and Recreation director um or better known as Vince G and this is Vince I uh who is our manager of our 11 and 12 year old All-Star team so on behalf of the city of denen and the Parks and Recreation Department congratulations to the 11 and 12 year old Major League All Stars for their season's success the players hard work and commitment to each other and the game are commendable denan is proud of you we would ALS Al like to thank our league president Megan Burrows who couldn't be with us this evening uh she had a illness in her family and was unable to be here tonight we'd also like to thank our manager and board me and board member Vince aada board members coaches parents volunteers and our City's ground crew for helping guide our team to Victory the city and the league have a great partnership and have had this partnership for many many years I always like to say we don't have to do it all we just need make sure it all gets done having the greater DED and little league as our partner running the baseball and softball programs I can assure you it's all getting done we share very similar philosophies where everybody plays everybody wins and everybody has fun tonight is a very special night in the city of denan continuing with our great baseball Tradition now I'd like to introduce Vin Vince sayada who will be speaking tonight on behalf of the greater Duneden little leak but before I do um I have a really very impressive resume that I couldn't resist reading while Vince is standing up here with me first of all Vince grew up in Den Eden played at Fisher field number seven as a teenager also volunteered as a junior umpire for little league when he was in high school 35 years with dedan little leag started as a coach with two daughters in t-ball and moving up this one's really impressive coached over 20 years without a child on a team coached over a dozen all-star teams including assistant coach on the 1991 Majors baseball World Series team finished number six in the world in Williamsport Pennsylvania man manager of the 2002 senior softball World Series team finished fourth in the world in Louisville Kentucky currently managing the major baseball Division 10 11 year olds also assistant coach for triaa baseball where his 8-year-old grandson is coming up the ranks member of the board of directors currently serving as coaching coordinator and finally manager of the Major League All Stars 11 and 12 year old 2024 District Champions section 7 Champions and state competitors with that uh my friend and great baseball coach and baseball person thank you Vince I appreciate it very much very kind words and thank you mayor Bowski and the Commissioners for having us here and inviting the team here for recognition I appreciate that very much it's always a privilege to be around all these young young men and the coaches and all the families and uh tonight's a a very special event before I do any introductions to the players I want to just say that success doesn't happen in a vacuum obviously there's a lot of hard work by the kids the dedication by by them and their families and their extended families as well um just to give you a number we had 30 practices and 10 games in about a six or seven week period of time and it was a grind there was a lot of rain there was a lot of stop and start um particularly here at home and then uh when we got to the state tournament as a result of all that work the boys won the District 12 Championship it was very competitive locally then section s which covers a lot of the Bay Area and that was the first time we had done that in 11 years and then we went up to the the uh the Panhandle actually we were in the central time zone in Dunc Springs we were closer to Mobile Alabama they we're at Tallahassee and uh I will say that before we left we talked about not only representing themselves and their families in our league but representing the city of dun Eden and they were awesome uh we got so many compliments on their behavior their attitude their hustle you would have been extremely proud of what they did and we we brought up there our bubble here tonight is about 40 people we're missing a few but that's our bubble of players coaches and parents and everywhere we went this bubble was so obviously enthusiastic about duning baseball because we have a rich tradition of baseball and we're a Powerhouse in baseball from Little League all the way through high school and people know it I actually thought we could sneak in under the radar up there at defunc but it didn't happen uh right in the 9:00 a.m. managers meeting before the state uh before the state meeting there were other coaches and and um State officials that knew who we were so that's a testament to all the hard work over many years by many players uh also behind all this is the dedication by the city and I do want to recognize besides Vince uh Pete Wells Chris Hoban and Brian Elliot and his entire crew um they are amazing they always support us even on a a turn of a dime and let me share one story with you dur during our District Tournament which was hosted over at Countryside on the championship Saturday we're in the middle of our second game of the day and this is for all the marbles and the skies opened up and uh we were in a delay and someone said we believe it's dry in dun Eden and we had a long hour and a half 2H hour delay so I drove over I ran into Brian he said I heard what's happening you're winning right and I go yeah and we got to move the game he said I'll have three Fields ready in 30 minutes and he did it and not only did we move our major tournament but we were able to move uh two other tournaments that were simultaneously going on the girls Championship which was up in Palm Harbor and the 10-11 championship which is at another location I can't call but it was a very successful pivot and by that evening the district uh tournament was completed thank you to Brian and his crew for doing such a bang up job on that so this group of 40 the bubble of 40 Behind Me grew to about 80 by the time we got to defunc Springs we had 26 hotel rooms as far as I know and we were actually sharing a hotel tell with some of the Lake Mary families who went on and won the World Series you might have seen it on TV it was a fantastic experience and um the folks up there were so gracious and then they learned of Duneden through all our conversation so hopefully we'll have some Panhandle folks come and visit the city here um but the pride I had in our city and uh the kids was amazing so let me go ahead and uh introduce um the coaches and the players okay first of all the two primary coaches and there are many others I'll name the others first uh because you can't do it with three guys there's no way um Isaiah hollerin he's not here tonight he's out of town uh rich and Andy Schmidt Ryan wac Ed sheii and of course there's always the most important job of all our team mom Katie Daly she was incredible and finally uh beash sheii she uh took on the role of during our laundry in many nights was not done till 2 or 3:00 in the morning so our coaches Paul Davis and uh pety as he's affectionately known has been coaching with me for many many years I you talk about commitment uh he had to uh make a choice and he chose not to go on a family cruise to continue coaching on to the state tournament and I thought that spoke very loudly of his commitment and Glenn [Applause] McKay like pety uh Glenn's been coaching at dun need multiple teams each season that spring and fall for the past 10 years all right I'm going to introduce the boys here in numerical order number three miles Daily Number Eight saen stay number nine Ben Simkins [Applause] number 11 RJ [Applause] wak number 12 Ethan Cruz are two boys that are not here tonight but I'd like to recognize him uh Talon Hollin number 13 is he did he make it all right great snuck in uh number 20 Isaiah so is not here he had to move to Georgia with his family's relocation but we miss him [Applause] dearly 25 Gavin [Applause] chassis number 26 Colin [Applause] McKay number 27 Ryan Schmidt number 35 Ben Schwarz and number 39 AJ sheii so these 12 young men came together from four regular season teams to form an All-Star team and within the second or third practice I knew we had something special going their their chemistry was amazing the parents chemistry was equal is amazing and uh it sure enough proved to be a very winning formula and in closing I want to thank U the city for all the Decades of support that you've always given to Recreation and the whole community in that sense we do have the best maintained facilities anywhere in our district I'm not just saying that because we're here but everywhere we go we see it we appreciate our fields and when others come to our complex they say wow they really do and then uh of course I'm looking forward to staying ahead head of that curve over the next number of years with improvements to the facility and Vince gizzy's uh cooperation in doing so so thank you very much for having us here tonight thank you hey guys come on up let's get some pictures okay let's get some pictures great put the short guys in the front I do need you guys a little bit closer coaches if I can have a couple coaches on this side yeah put a couple guys on the other end yes all right three two one got it Thank You Vince don't go anywhere cuz you guys just turn around so we just wanted to say a couple words of congratulation to um man I've never had anybody at this Clos to that's okay but you know on beh on behalf of my colleagues and city manager and everyone in and the entire city um you guys make us proud probably see me cheering up because you know I had a kid that played little league and if you didn't know this I was the second girl to ever play Little League here in Denon so I played baseball too we are a baseball City and I remember maybe about 20 years ago you probably remember this um little league we had two different little leagues you know denian National and denian American and um they were panhandling at Publix for lights at the field and I remember sitting in the audience with with little league coming forward um kind of storming City Hall if you will um and and saying you know this isn't working and I remember the commission saying no it's not and from that moment on was when I think the city said we're going to have the best fields ever and you know we weren't going to make our kids pay and handle of Publix to raise money for lights to the field and that's what was happening that was the old agreements um so I'm very proud very proud of that [Music] um and I went to school with one of your brothers did so we are a baseball City you guys made us proud you did great and we just thank you for all the hard work because guess what when you're in a team sport that teaches you all kinds of leadership in the future it's the best thing ever we're very proud of you congratulations [Applause] God how do you follow that and thanks to all the parents cuz I know it's a lot of hard work my kid was a sports kid since since he was three it killed me it did and another special thank you to Vince because under your leadership when you came here you really turned all of that around and we appreciate that to you too so thank you anything to do with kids you'll always see me crying that's why we have tissues up here I'm sorry it's just in my nature you can yell at me and I don't cry but bring a kid in front of me and I'm I'm I'm a weepy mess okay now we got some more exciting things and that is our CQ 2024 D needan environmental hero Awards so na I'll turn it over to you thank you um good evening mayor vice mayor Commissioners everyone in the room this evening and everyone watching online Natalie gas sustainability program manager for the city of denan we're very excited to present this year's 2024 denan environmental hero Awards um with me today I have our chair Howard gray and Katherine Owen our previous chair um that will be here on behalf of the committee on AAL quality and sustainability or cqs for short and I'm going to turn it over to Howard welcome Howard than all right we're here on behalf of the committee on Environmental Quality sustainability um that's the cqs to present this year's dun Eden environmental hero Awards the committee received great nominations and is excited to celebrate the robust action and achievements of our dund community members and organiz ations cqs selected seven attendees correction awardees for this year's program this year's award categories are nonprofit organization Grassroots ambassadors and small business awardees as we recognize you please come forward to receive your award I don't run off too quickly as we'd like to take a few group photos in at the end here uh in the category of nonprofit organization the award goes to friends of the [Applause] hammock Friends of the hammock Works to protect and improve the Beloved hammock Park here in Duneden they are they have created and managed a large butterfly garden that provides essential habitat for beneficial pollinators the group hosts cleanup days to remove invasive plant species from the park which further promotes the healthy ecosystem as well as protects habitat for wildlife their organization also hosts a variety of nature-based educational workshops and speakers that educate community members of all ages congratulations Friends of the hammock and thank you for being done eeden environmental [Applause] [Applause] hero stand C yes hello you're welcome thank you good evening thanks for having us uh we'll now move on to the second category of award presentation in the category of Grassroots Ambassador the first award goes to Ray bushard [Applause] Ray Ray is a fifth generation Flor Floridian who has been passionate about protecting the environment from a very young age Reay worked with Tracy tippen Vicky love and other community members to designate the Florida Gulf Coast as an official hope spot through Sylvia Earl's program Mission blue and co-found the local nonprofit organization blue green connections with a creative eye Ray captures nature through his photography work and most recently Ray has volunteered his acting skills to educate the community on environmental topics through the city's social media media videos so congratulations Ray and thank you for being a Duneden environmental hero wel all right the second award in the category of Grassroots Ambassador goes to Debbie CLA Debbie come on Debbie Debbie has always advocated her time and resources for improving the lives around her and the environment she has created a nature sanctuary in her backyard for local Wildlife she's an avid recycler finds ways to reduce waste and inducts neighborhood and park cleanups Debbie is an active Debbie is active on the city advisory committee and boards on a variety of topics including environmental ones she is also appreciated for her mentorship and support of educating youth congratulations Debbie and thank you for being a Duneden environmental [Applause] [Applause] hero the third award in the category of Grassroots Ambassador goes to Matt Warner [Applause] Matt Matt Matt has been an advocate of water quality protection for many years and has previously served on the city's storm water advisory committee his passion for the environment extends through his commitment to educate the community and local government on best practices Matt's input and creative strategies for enhancing water quality also creates improvements for wildlife habitats congratulations Matt and thank you for being a doneen environmental [Applause] hero all right um the fourth award in the category of Grassroots Ambassador goes to Dave Lindsay [Applause] Dave is a sixth generation Floridian and has a long history of studying the environment and taking action to protect it with a degree in botney and over 50 years of working in his career field he has accomplished many impressive Feats including assessing assisting excuse me to create a national Wetlands inventory where he mapped out approximately 33 million Acres of wetlands which is phenomenal feat more recently he has volunteered his time through the lakat program to actively restore balance of Lake Sandra within the Fairway Estates community through a labor intensive process Dave works with other volunteers to remove invasive plants from the lake and surrounding Park and plant natives in their place congratulations Dave and thank you for being a Eden environmental hero [Applause] thank you the final award uh category in tonight's program is the category of small business uh very very big and done I understand yeah the first award in this category goes to Crown and bull [Applause] [Applause] crown and bull is a restaurant and bar located in downtown dun Eden on Main Street they have been participating in the Surf Rider green business certification for years their team has hosted many successful Community Beach cleanups their latest initiative is called Duneden green initiative where they have been spearheading an effort and modeling it in action to to spread Environmental commit commitment within the business Community this effort aims to educate and show businesses how to make sustainable operating choices the main goal of reducing their carbon footprint and reducing single use Plastics congratulations crown and bull and thank you for being a doneen environmental [Applause] hero also in the category of small business the second and final award goes to Nature's Food Patch and [Applause] d uh Nature's Food Patch is a grocery store located in downtown Duneden on Douglas Avenue the team at Nature's Food Patch is dedicated to protecting the environment on Earth Day in 2008 they launched the bang ban the bag uh correction ban the bag Campaign which entails donating 5 cents per reusable bag brought in and used during shopping since the program's Inception an estimated 1, 56771 I wonder who is counting reusable bags have been used by customers over $552,000 in charitable donations have been given to the community including a check being given to our very own environmental hero friends of the hammock congratulations Nature's Food Patch and thank you for being a doneen environmental [Applause] hero that that concludes this year's cqs dun Eden environmental Heroes Awards let's give a big round of applause as we congratulate all the attendees if we can have all the winners come forward for a picture a group picture for all the winners come on down stand all right up here tiny bit this way there go we don't block if I can have you guys squeeze in a little bit you guys got to slide down a little bit there you go keep SL fing keep fiding keep fiding there you go all right all right three two one got it thank you we are so grateful for everything that you guys are doing to protect un Eden thank you so much which one is this 2 and 2 a to okay this is too be okay thank you thank you Natalie okay and finally we have our national Constitution week Proclamation and I'll turn that over to commissioner Walker well what better way to to follow up on America's national Pastime and uh the environment uh my privilege and honor to read the national Constitution week Proclamation whereas September 177 2024 marks the 237th anniversary of the drafting of the Constitution of the United States of America by the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia and whereas it is fitting and proper to Accord official recognition to This Magnificent document and its memorable history anniversary and to The Patriot otic celebrations which will commemorate the occasion and whereas throughout America's history in times of turmoil and peace Liberty and oppression our faith in the Constitution's promise of freedom and democracy has been a steadfast Rock of national stability against the Raging Seas of political change and whereas to this day the Caladesi chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution continue to encourage public awareness of the historic significance of this milestone in our nation's Heritage now therefore I Robert James Walker by virtue of the authority vested to me by the mayor of the city of denan Florida and on behalf of the entire city commission we do hereby proclaim the period of September 17th through September 23rd 20124 as National Constitution week in denan and urge all citizens to join with the Cades chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution along with the D chapters Across America in honoring and recalling the importance of our rights under the Constitution by public display of our nation's flag during National Constitution week thank you [Applause] well thank you very much to all the Commissioners the mayor the American reev oh I wanted to introduce myself I'm Lori cofy the Regent of D Caladesi chapter right here in Den Eden the American Revolution is as familiar to us as a series of battles right remember I have not yet begun to fight but more significantly it was a revolution of ideas and ideals the main idea is that each person has certain inalienable god-given rights but to protect the purpose of government is not to dispense those rights like Parliament was doing back in the 1700s but to protect them government would be the servant and not the master of the people who knows that better than elected officials you know this no this brand of new ideas led to the drafting of the United States Constitution it was signed by our founding fathers on September 17th 1787 at 4:00 in the afternoon ring a bell we do ring a bell it is the world's oldest written Constitution still in use today nearly 800 have followed ours in 1955 the year I was born the DAR asked Congress to make the week of September mber 17th through the 23rd dedicated to the constitution in August the month I was born President Eisenhower agreed and since then the presidents and all 50 state Governors have issued proclamations honoring this remarkable document which makes us citizens the Caladesi chapter D encourages our citizens and future citizens to become better acquainted with the US Constitution by reading it and understanding what rights and do ities we have we the people on that note we invite everyone to visit our constitutional display at the Duneden Public Library this month for the entire month mayor bujalski had to practice oh you got yeah so did I I mean I went from Ward to bolski it took me a while well I wanted to call you major no thank you for helping the Daughters of the American Revolution promote awareness of our nation's greatest treasure it really is our kadc chapter is pleased to present you with the Constitution flag to fly over the city hall from September 17th Constitution and citizenship day through September 23rd may we approach yes you may I'll you me do it I can do it you can give it right over to Jennifer Jennifer and also theti feel free to pass out I have one in my desk keep them so thank you very much we appreciate it thank you so much for all your service we appreciate it thank you oh we're GNA get a picture other side of the podium right over here if I can have you it over here just to balance it a little more all right three two one got thank you thank you okay um all right next on our agenda is um citizen input this is uh a time for folks to speak to any item that is not on the agenda if if you're here to speak to an item that is on the agenda you'll have the opportunity to do so after we introduce it so anyone wishing to speak to anything not on the agenda come on down give us your name and address for the record and we will uh and you have three minutes I'm the guy that gets to speak after the little league and the Constitution of the United States hi my name is Rob Coen um like many of you uh I wear several hats when I come to the commission meetings first as the chairman of the Duneden military veterans advisory Comm committee and at the request of my committee uh I come to you to reiterate our letter of recommendation regarding the renaming of Sterling Park to the Donald robling Veteran Park I realized that it is not within our purview as a committee to talk about the use of the park but that amphibious assault vehicle the alligator that sits in front of the VFW is a reminder of the contribution of our town on Eden gave to winning World War II and renaming the park after its designer Donald robling is a worthy tribute to a man who brought this patriotic Fame to our town now as the rear commodore of the dun Eden boat club I speak for our membership and thanking all of you for your support as noted in that great article we had that feature article in the Duneden peak in the last month you should know that in a couple years we will be celebrating our 100th birthday and the dun Eden boat club is one of the few remaining iconic touchstones to Dun need's long and historic Maritime Legacy so keeping that Clubhouse intact and strong celebrates our past as it is an investment in maintaining the car character of our town finally at 11:00 a.m. on November 11th we are going to come to Pioneer Park to celebrate Veterans Day it is our opportunity as a community to recognize and give a thanks to our men and women in uniform and it is a reminder of the astronomically High Cost of Freedom I hope once again as it has been our custom to bring the commanders of the VFW you and the American Legion and the military order of Purple Heart here to receive your Proclamation prior to you reading it at the ceremony so thank you again for the opportunity to speak thank you for your consideration of these requests and thank you by the way for making me proud to be part of this town after what I just saw today and John I don't know I have there was 21 seconds left I don't know if you want to mention flight that's coming up next week but again you know you make us proud with that so um thank you for your time thank you rob yeah anyone else welcome give us your name and address for the record and you have three minutes all right Eric Curtis 51 Main Street which is the marina so I am a marina tenant also so it's nice to see everybody here after I missed the last meeting and there were a few people missing but uh thanks for allowing me to be on the Marine advisory committee I have concerns about the city moving forward on replacing the existing P or replacing existing Marina infrastructure all new docks sound great if they're truly needed but at what cost to Marina tenants the marina fund should have been adjusted over 10 years ago for the dock work if it's really needed we need to be real and show actual new slip increases please don't use percentages because majority of the people can't figure out the real value 10% compounded over every year for five years was the rate study we just adopted but it didn't consider all new rebuild we should have a cost analysis for rebuilding or replacing a normal business would do that so we know where we're at if we're wasting money or you know I hear a lot of statements coming from the city council with no records to back them up this bothers me keyword like this corrosion on Hardware deterioration warn deck it needs to go D dangerous boat ramp I have requested a report about the dangerous boat ramp and it doesn't exist because no one has been reported injured there also I requested on the condition of our current Docks but no reports exist we do have a piling condition report from 2023 show sh out of hundreds of pilings we may have five bad pilings which I think we replaced a few of those I also heard that the Mac Marine advisory committee said the aluminum docks were good but it wasn't also discussed that repairs were possible or any other things it was just either actually was fixed docks or concrete docks and at the last meeting they got thrown in about aluminum dock so we only had a choice to vote aluminum do or concrete that was it there was nothing else to discuss so there there was stuff left off the table there um the only way to get to the bottom this is to hire a marine engineer that's qualified to determine the condition of our docks and can supply an estimate if they are hired to perform this scope in my opinion the pier should be looked at for repairs or replacement due to its location and environment it's in I know this is a park issue not so much the marina separated out uh this one as a marine attendant why does the city council vote on this matter when the Marine attendants are actual people paying for this upgrade that goes back to funding and stuff like that I don't know if we can get grants because it's not truly public so uh if we can help prolong the next dredge by stopping materials from the outside areas from the park being washing the marina Basin I got plenty of pictures of this so thank you for my three minutes thank you um I think just so so you know I think um Jennifer informed us Tuesday that we are doing that study do you just want to touch on that yeah we um we are sub uh expecting a response to a request for a scope and fee schedule for the marina engineer to assess the condition of a b and c so you'll be Happ to know that thank you well I'm just trying to ask what you I'm just trying to ask answer what you asked anyone else wish to come forward and speak to any item that's not on the agenda come on down give us your name and address for the record and you have three minutes you good oral Matthews uh 434 P M Street uh I didn't I thought got probably got a phone call but I didn't might have missed it but adapt the sports in U and done eating in Palace County and uh trying to see if by getting time on uh at the rec center to be able to use the the sports chairs uh so you can try get you know I mean you got to get your speed up to play with these guys uh and also being able to go down and buy the water cuz you can't just park nothing down there um so I figured if I could get to where I could roll all the way down to clear water and back back and go up in that gym then I'd be able to hang with them guys yeah man you you would not believe how fast these cats is uh but um oh yeah was the organization I joined the American Legion like you said uh uh um and and because the move United is both it's both veterans and civilians that uh that could participate in it and I was probably TR time find out maybe even Den could host the maybe even host a couple of events and stuff they'll they go along with it but uh they had to throw that out there so but it's out there now right okay so that's about it okay thanks for thank you appreciate it anyone else wish to come forward and speak to any item that's not on the agenda welcome give us your name and address for the record uh for Dwayne Wright 250 New York Avenue dun Eden okay I let me write my notes I have some news that may make some of you up there happy but I'll get to that shortly I have lived in Duneden for over 25 years 20 of those years I owned the little yellow bungalow on the cornner Bell trees in Milwaukee some people still talked to me on the streets when it was on the Holiday Tour of Homes I was honored to serve on the baa Board of adjustment appeals and one of the original Architects on the Architectural Review Committee I advise all citizens that attend these meetings you'll find them very knowledgeable and I also suggest you show up in person what show what happens before the cameras rolling after them are very inspiring all of you on the dasis are well aware that I attended almost every city commission meeting for six years in The Old City Hall and uh you basically why I don't although citizens can monor these meetings like I said before the cameras roll I had to edit my notes I am known as being a tad overzealous when it comes to advocate for accessibility and will continue to be so now for the good news you should all be happy possibly to know that I am finally moving to Italy and although I will be 5,44 8 miles away I'm still one Mouse click away I'm not going to stay up until midnight to watch your meetings uh last uh my life here in dun Eden has been very memorable good and bad The Good alwayss the Bad and uh listening to some of the talks tonight the constitutionalist uh this gentlemen uh I will remind all of the citizens of dun Eden you get the government you participate in piggybacking off the Constitution you need to show up you need to listen you need to be involved my little pet peeve is six years people coming up and calling you a councel you're a commission uh but that's the side point and that's about it I wish you luck I still have my goals and and uh it's been an interesting and I do appreciate your involvement because I know how much you get paid and it's not enough I also know the 17 years of time I donated didn't get paid so there are plenty of boards and committees out there that still need membership please get involved I repeated this many times over the years and uh I wish you all luck thank you Dwayne thank you for your service [Applause] okay anyone else all right we'll move on to action items we have the second reading of ordinance 24-22 of the city of denan amending um section 107 41.1 unlawful noise of the city of denan um Jen would you please read ordinance 24-22 by title only ordinance 24-22 an ordinance of the city of denen FL Florida amending section 10741 point1 unlawful noise of the city of denen Land Development code to provide for interpretive Clarity relating to Amplified sound and to clarify Amplified sound may be heard outside the property line on New Year's Eve and may never exceed the weighted 65 DB measured at the property line providing for codification providing for severability providing for conflict and providing for an effective date that was ordinance 2422 read by title only thank you can I have a motion to approve so moved second vice mayor fry and commissioner gal thank you Jennifer thank you mayor good evening mayor vice mayor members of the commission and everybody who showed up as Dwayne would call you um I'm going to do mayor my full presentation essentially the same as the local planning agency in first reading as well there are a lot of faces here who were at the LPA in the first reading but there are a lot who weren't as well so um we we'll start at the beginning and and walk through it if that's okay with you yep the item before the uh City commission this evening uh is second reading of ordinance 24-22 amending chapter 107 41.1 of the code of ordinances pertaining to unlawful sound this is largely the same presentation as I said I made at the LPA in first reading but I do think it's important to go over it again uh and I do have some uh to add some information at the very end mayor that uh um that some activities that occurred during intervening per period between first reading and second reading so this item was before the Planning and Zoning Board on July 29th uh the board heard uh staff's presentation and also um testimony from U members of the public the board voted unanimously to forward a favorable recommendation to the city commission the city commission then held first reading of the ordinance on August 1st of 2024 the commission voted 4 to one to approve first reading and set second reading for this evening and as I said you had some comments which we have followed up upon uh this ordinance uh before the city commission this evening has been advertised in accordance with all notice requirements the purpose of this amendment uh is to clarify language in the ordinance that has at times caused confusion uh and to include a provision regarding extended hours on new years which was previously approved uh by a previous commission uh by resolution but resolutions are not enforcable and so uh we need to add it to this ordinance the unlawful noise ordinance was adopted in 2008 uh after a great deal of discussion within and by the community and by the city commission and the local planning agency at that time uh prior to that in order to engender input from the community in 2007 the city commission convened the live work play and sleep task force the task force was assisted by an acoustical consultant and I read the minutes of those meetings uh lots of those meetings and it's amazing how similar a lot of those those discussions were to the uh business resident city um task force course the minutes show that there was lengthy discussion surrounding a weed versus a c-weighted uh measurements and permissible uh decel levels um the uh commission went with the aweighted section 104-43 May and said what is a photograph so oh jeez yeah I cannot be that old yes yes like a cassette deck that's right yeah yes and that was the person right there Hi-Fi stereo tape player compact disc or digital sound system or other type of sound broadcasting or Sound amplic amp amplification device whether from moving Vehicles vessels um or or stationary locations that exceeds an a weighted decel threshold of 65 DB measured at the property line of the complaintant or which otherwise creates a nuisance such items include but not limited to loudspeakers boom boxes and car stereo car radios so this section of the ordinance subsection C established that unlawful noise is any sound that exceeds 65 DB at the property line of the complaintant this would apply 7 days a week 24 hours a day to do section 107-11 print8 H states that unlawful sound is Amplified sound whether music or any other form of sound that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week this violation includes sound generated inside a structure or outside a structure sound may be heard because of the opening of doors as persons enter or leave the structure but that momentarily exceeds an aeed debel threshold of 65 DB measured at the property line of the property from which the sound is generated that is not a violation of the of the standard this section then of the unlawful noise ordinance has caused confusion since the adoption of the ordinance and even I would say before adoption of the ordinance taken literally this section of the code requires essentially silence Ambient sound is measured at 45 to 50 DB also given the weight that the sound Flows In Waves if there's no sound generated from the inside or outside the structure why then would a door swing matter at all there were a series of clarifications from City officials just prior to as I'd mentioned and and after the unlawful noise ordinance was adopted which are cited in my memorandum dated February 12th of 2024 to Captain Melvin Jackson our North District commander and for those of you who don't know he is the equivalent to our police chief and he is standing in the back of the room Captain Jackson say Hello thank you thank you thank you for coming today so before I get to those clarifications it's important to note uh that what we are doing today uh at second reading if the commission approves second reading um upon adoption is to resolve this confusion and add Clarity and to establish um a clear path as to how this ordinance is to be enforced on May 7th of 2008 Sergeant C laan of the pcso community policing unit made the following recomend commendations regarding the draft ordinance to the city manager at that time Rob despo he said one use the a rated decel rating system two set the Threshold at 65 DB for live outside Amplified music three enforce enforcement of this decel level will be at the point of rece receivership by the complaintant four the business owners will be required to monitor decibel levels and five no outside live Amplified music after 11: p.m. 7 days a week so this this the these um parameters if you will speak to the intent the original intent of the ordinance on July 17th 2008 Harry Grose who was then the assistant city manager described the parameters of the noise ordinance in a memorandum to the city manager as follows introduces an aeed decel threshold standard to determine whether Amplified sound is unlawful sets the aeed decel level at 65 DB establishes a point of measurement at the property line of the complaintant and any night of the week any night of the week and establishes that no Amplified music will be played Outdoors after 11:00 p.m. clarifications similar to those already described above occurred in January 5th of 2009 when Greg rice who was at that time the director of Community Development wrote to City Attorney John hubard as an example he wrote the business has Amplified music within the structure the time is 11:30 p.m. a person places the DB reader at the property line of the business and measures the decibel levels the resultant measurement is 55 at this point no violation of the ordinance has occurred a customer leaves the business by opening a door and exiting the building at the moment the door doors open the decibel level increases to 68 DB the door closes and the decel reading returns to 50 again no violation of the ordinance has occurred on January 15th of 2009 he wrote I did ask the City attorney for clarification he said that the intent of the ordinance was essentially that the 65 D standard be maintained it just moves to the property line of the source of the music after 11:00 p.m. so that intent is very clear in the public record now I did Reach Out directly as you know to Harry gross uh the city's project manager at that time and assistant city manager at that time to ensure that I was understanding the minutes of these meetings and these emails and the statements regarding enforcement Mr gross confirmed the city's position in 2007 and 2008 and in addition in addition I did check with deputies who worked with the city CPO commun that's a community policing division as far back as 2015 and namely uh Deputy Fahy and Deputy fah is here this evening so we haven't seen him around for a while he hasn't been in this building yet so welcome Deputy Fahy Deputy Fahy trained uh new deputies in the use of the deible readers and the implementation of the unlawful noise ordinance and he confirmed the above that unlawful noise is anything over 65 DB measured from the property line of the complaintant before 11:00 p.m. and anything over 65 Deb measured from the property line of the source of the noise after 11:00 p.m. that's very clear uh on your screens before you is what the amendment looks like um a subsection H we want to add Amplified sound generated outside of a structure anything underlined is what we want to add anything struck through is what we want to strike out whether music or any other form of sound that may be heard outside the property line from which the Amplified sign is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week except on December 3th 1 from 11:00 until 12:30 a.m. on January 1st and so that's that New Year's Eve provision we want to add Amplified and on subsection 8 Amplified sound generated inside of a structure exceeding the aeed decel uh 65 D level that may be heard outside the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week except December 31st from 11:00 p.m. until 2:30 a.m. on January 1st so those are the are the uh amendments proposed amendments to the noise ordinance and again their clarifications of the noise ordinance itself um as you know there was a great deal of public input during the course of first reading um and there are some things the city commission had asked that I that I look into had consens direction to that end uh City commission directed me to work with the pel county sheriff's office to ensure that we have a deputy dedicated to downtown uh issues until 3:00 a.m. now we do have Deputy Naro is who is here Deputy Dan in the very back uh and Matt skypack is one of our cpos over there so I just felt bad Matt Matt I mean introduce everybody else so got to introduce you too um and he's he's dedicated in the downtown until 11:00 pm. the commission was very clear that you wanted to see somebody um dedicated specifically to noise in downtown until 3:00 a.m. I conveyed that to Captain Jackson um and he is he responded uh in the positive that a deputy will be dedic ated um until 3:00 a.m. um it is important that this Deputy is U uh well is trained thoroughly trained in the noise ordinance and we want consistency as well in that position and Captain Jackson has agreed to those parameters I don't have that Deputy in place right now uh we're still working on on what that you know what that would look like uh specifically there may be a shift differential in that type of a thing but uh Captain Jackson is well aware uh and we've had several discussions about that as well um um the commission had asked me to look into specifically uh chronic complaints um uh from the community that are unfounded and and any um and essentially the the the quote was chronic complaints from people who weaponized the ordinance um mayor had asked me to come back to you and Report what we could do about that um what penel county sheriff's office has in place to that end the sheriff's office has to roll on every complaint obviously um the you know if we were to do anything it would be amendments to our code of ordinances subject to consensus Direction by the commission then we would certainly look into that and bring a proposal back to the city commission at at some point in the future but what I would really want to look at is what best practices are uh in other cities because I'm sure that other cities have a similar type of an ordinance so that that was really everything from the intervening period that you had asked me to to look at um you do have some e-comments that were sent in uh today and yesterday I think and the day before as well uh staff is recommending the city commission approve uh 2422 at second reading this evening and I'm available to answer any questions that you may have mayor vice mayor and Commissioners if you don't mind I'm just going to take one of the EC comments had a had a question in there that I thought maybe you can answer um there was a comparison between our noise ordinance um at 65 DB and in penel counties um at 55 from 11:00 p.m. to 700 a.m. George can you clarify that that that is in um residential zones so mayor I'm not I'm not familiar with the pellis county uh regulations on the noise ordinance but I I know there was some conversation about it at the last reading I and I can't answer intelligently to what what that ordinance actually says we we can look that up I looked it's in res zones I looked it up myself I just wanted you to be able to clar you know confirm what I'm saying but I did Google it and um it is but I'll talk more about that later I just wanted to get that question for that or that statement that that lady sent into us okay questions I'm going to vice mayor questions I just had one uh in thinking about The Chronic uh complaints um you know in a lot of areas you know you have some you know frequent buyes for EMS things like that and of course everybody has to respond but I was thinking for the future too that maybe um you know there's some way that we could be communicated with as a commission when we really do have a significant chronic complainer because I just think it helps us all understand you know kind of what's going on in the downtown and um and um you know so some type of communication reporting type thing would be helpful I think if if I can add uh vice mayor as well excuse me it doesn't just pertain to into noise no actually code enforcement right there are other areas where there are chronic complaints and they can't be anonymous obviously at this point but there are other areas where there are chronic complaints and they are unfounded as well so it pertain Citywide to other issues as well I just think that um it's not about targeting it's if it's unfounded it's repeated you know at least we kind of understand and we can I don't know maybe there's some solution to that in a different creative way I don't know depending on what the person's issue is so thank you if I if I can add to that too I think Jennifer if you work with the sheriff's department you know they've dealt with this on many different issues over the years so they have a feeling for how many times would be considered chronic I don't want to just say what that is I I don't know right you know I mean I'd like to say if it's if they call three times and it's unfounded you get a ticket I think it's simple but it's not always that simple this is complicated um so yeah I think I do think best practice is looking at that and getting a sense from the sheriff's department their own experiences they deal with it I mean these nuisance calls are a pain in the you know what for them too you know it's it's using resources that can be doing something else also targeting our businesses and then they have to deal with it right and really the reverse side of that as well is is the fact that you cannot uh complain anonymously anymore and having that dedicated uh officer in downtown and for the noise ordinance um because they can enforce proactively obviously um so that there doesn't have to be a call in order for them to to right to drive around drive by so that's really CU you know some some residents now at this point are very hesitant to call in a complaint because you know they're worried about any sort of Retribution so this you know will address that issue okay any other questions vice mayor questions commissioner TKA the strike through here at the very top an H um that is a change is that is that not correct we're adding that commissioner yes I'm sorry we're adding that where what's the cross through there I'm sorry the underline we're adding the cross through we we are um deleting so before when so I want to reference that just generally um we talk about chronic complainers if somebody believes that their rights are being affected and there's something in place that that attempts to protect them um they may call um and and register a complaint um I'm not sure that they're always called CRI I think we have to be careful of what we call that um I certainly would if I believe that something thing uh was it was an ordinance and and I felt like I understood that ordinance and what I felt it was being violated uh I think they have the right to to register a complaint or ask somebody to investigate it remember our our our sheriff is not always out there to arrest or to adjudicate that arrest is not needed sometimes it's to clarify what's what's occurring or what needs to happen um in this particular case I think some of this is quite confusing uh some of these words are quite confusing uh to folks so right now um we're we're adding things here and and we have changed we have changed this noise ordinance the part that that that bothers me um about this is again the constant uh requirement for this for this measurement of which we've had up till now and when you have a violation if you have if you have an ordinance where it says a violation includes all sound any sound and you can't have it anymore I don't know what happens with this um we've all been through because I requested certainly that we have some testing and we realize and we get to see the testing of a a andc uh waited uh uh violations the the problem is is that also as we think of our comprehensive plan and as we think of our strategic plan we are trying to certainly provide a living environment for people where they can feel comfortable living in that environment and I'm not sure that that this has done that um is there a question commissioner yeah so so I believe I believe that that this might be something that's being being placed in front of us right now and it may not solve that it may not and so therefore before I believe that I voted for this before but I did ask that we go slow on both issues um on this one um again we're going to have adjudication by the sheriff uh on the outside until 11: but maybe now for other reasons till till three do you really believe that this resolves this uh I've talked to people and and they're not quite sure that this does so are we going to are we going to fast and and what happens what happens outside and does this affect everything including outside of downtown dun Eden yes it does so it's where wherever wherever anything could occur and we have some new facilities coming in place and I'm not sure that those folks understand this as well so I just I want to make that statement I made it before for the next issue that we're going to be talking so let's let her answer that question so I I do believe that it will resolve the issue and I believe it resolved the issue because it doesn't change the generation of the noise and the level of the noise so it clarifies where you take that reading and when you take that reading so so um the you know the 65 DB as as I said in during the course of first uh the first public hearing is is about the sound of a conversation if you're standing 3 feet away from that conversation if you're standing 30 feet away then that's that it's lower than 65 DB but after 11:00 at night if you're in your living room and and you hear noise and you think that it's too loud then the sheriff's very it's very clear here the deputies are going to go to the source of the noise at that property line and take the decel reading and if it's above 65 DB then it's a violation at the at the source of that of that complaintant it should be way below 65 DB there are some areas in downtown that there is a common property line between the the commercial business and the residential business in that case it's going to be 65 DB at at that property line and it would be 65 DB or a little bit less at the source of the complaint as well so so I do believe commissioner that this is going to resolve that issue um since the clarification memo in February um and and even before that time I've been working very closely with Captain Jackson as far as as the calibration of the decel readers and the the how this ordinance is enforced and the situation has gotten better in those terms in terms of the noise ordinance itself and so that's the whole purpose of this is to make it very clear on how to enforce this ordinance uh for the deputies so we agreed in sitting down that this was the simplest way to ensure that enforcement is consistent and concise um for everybody throughout throughout the city of denen I am concerned about some of the folks downtown um as I as I look at the situation and you just mentioned it where we have the really closeness and it would seem to me as though that is an area that um should be handled or hopefully could be handled beforehand because at 11:00 um it's so close I mean it is so close that there's a potentiality for those folks to really feel like their life was affected but I don't know that so I haven't talked to those folks so that's my input that was a question that I had and you answered it to some degree commissioner G do you have any questions no uh no ma'am all my questions are asked and answered thank you okay commissioner Walker I have no additional questions they were all answered over the course of the presentation okay I don't have any questions either uh we'll open up for public input I've got some cards that folks have filled out uh candy Bryant give us your name and address for the record and you've got three minutes um Candy Bryant 1050 Marine Street Clearwater Florida um I want to start by thanking city manager Bramley for doing the research and drafting this memorandum this means a whole lot to us um I was on the original task force for the noise ordinance uh that was implemented in 2008 and I've always known what the intent was dun Brewery was always in compliance we kept a decel reader on hand we kept logs of the sound levels just in case there was an issue uh we also kept a noise ordinance file behind the bar and educated our employees on what the rules were we had no problems in the first 10 years in 20 2018 and 19 we started getting visits from the sheriff we met with the sheriff and the city and presented the interpretation from the past assistant city manager that showed what the intent was the sheriff acknowledged our proof and we had no more issues for the next couple of years in 2021 I learned that a resident who doesn't even live downtown was trying to get the Sound Ordinance looked at by the ordinance Review Committee my husband and I attended the July YC meeting and when we spoke about the history of the Sound Ordinance this individual proceeded to slander us in front of the committee at that time the committee agreed not to make any changes to the Sound Ordinance which was good from March 2023 until April 2024 a resident at The Artisan was allowed to call the sheriff on us more than 20 times in the span of that year we had almost bi-weekly visits by the sheriff and harassment of our employees and our customers who had no clue why we were being targeted and why the sheriff was showing up all the time um we asked for help from the city and the sheriff we asked for help from the owner of the artisan and the manager there but they said they didn't want to get involved we were we were even told by the sheriff on occasion it's in it's in the reports that they made that the music coming from saer and woodwright was louder than ours but the resident called and and targeted us so they had to come to our place they didn't even go in measure at those other places um city manager bramley's memorandum regarding the clarification of the Sound Ordinance brought that to an end or so we thought but the bad guys found a new weapon which was the city commission as was shown by some of the Commissioners comments at the end of the first reading I wasn't here but I did watch it on um TV I guess I'm done but um I just wanted to say that we didn't say F you to The Artisan it wasn't us I don't know who it was I don't know if you got bad information or what but people thought it was so I'm hoping to put that on record that it wasn't thank you thank you Candy um Shan Newton hello Sean Newton um I live at uh 1714 Santana Drive welcome um I lived in denan since about 7 years old uh when I was younger I helped my dad when he ran for City Commissioner I volunteered to help with the needan first skate park uh this town means a lot to me um and I've had the pleasure of watching it grow in change over the years with change however there's always going to be growing pains while I understand the need for sound ordinances the dustow limits where they are read and where they are read should not be revised to be more restrictive as this would put unnecessary burdens on local businesses as said in previous meetings the zoning and denan has not changed uh for many many years there's no current zoning encroachment going into residential neighborhoods allowing restaurants or bars to pop up in your backyard while I understand and feel the residents have uh have had these growing panss over our VI there are residents that have growing panss over our VI downtown but I don't think it's fair to shut down the whole city due to deciel slightly being louder than a normal conversation nor do I feel the 11 vacate rule should be allow or enforced the restaurants and bars downtown um count on the later hours of their evening to make money and allow downtown area to thrive any additional restrictions would harm the future and culture of of our bright Den Eden again this will not be an eore it never will um but we have a good thing going with music dancing art and energetic lifestyle our energetic life night life that keeps people visiting and moving here so I just wanted to say let's not go backwards and thank you for all that you guys do thank you okay John shine John shine 27 Aberdine Street welcome and in terms of disclosure I am a candidate for mayor there have been two things that actually changed let's not pretend it's the words on the piece of paper that has changed the enforcement has changed both proactive and reactive along with the fact that there is a police officer or sheriff's officer they to enforce Beyond 11:00 you're creating a situation where the the enforcement officer has to have a measure of success you have not set one you have not created a measure of success so you do not know whether this ordinance is successful or not nor will you ever know whether it's successful or not because you have not set a measure of success but what you have set is expect expectations expectations on the side of the businesses expectations on the side of the residents expectations on the side of the business's customers and expectations on the side of the law enforcement officers that have to enforce it the thing that hasn't changed is the business's ability to actually control and regulate noise nothing's been done with that so what you've done is you've created an ordinance with high expectations you've improved or increased enforcement you have no idea how to measure that success and you're going to implement it I suspect that at least two if not three of you will have to fix this in the future but right now few of you have a vested interest in the future because many of you are on your way out I don't understand why you would try to implement this on your way out it just doesn't make any sense because you have no vested interest in either the success or failure I feel sorry for you Jeff and Rob because you're going to be stuck with an expectation that is very high from all parties and a situation where there is no measure of success hopefully everything will go okay what do you think the odds of that are with no measure of success what do you think the odds are when you put a police officer whose whole job is based upon enforcing noise to enforce noise based on a proactive and reactive response reactive I can understand somebody complains we we have that today nothing's changed proactive I don't understand I don't understand because who is it that's complaining and where is it the problem and what is the Catalyst for that and how is the measure of success when that officer at 2 a. has to show up on his own thank you thank you Michael Lynn Brant commission um I know I've already thanked uh Jen Bramley on her work here um I just want to speak to John real quick um I think the concern about changes being too fast um you got to realize that this is just a clarification of the original intent um it's how it was enforced for at least 10 years up until we first had a problem that was corrected in about 3 to four months after that Mis enforcement started and we were back to normal to what you see above and then in uh the last year we had another time where suddenly the enforcement was getting it wrong again and the efforts by Jen Bramley mimic and Echo exactly what my parents and other people on the live work sleep play u board or committee uh found and determined and what was voted upon ultimately in the commission so I don't think that there's much worry I think that there is a lot more people involved in the conversation um we've been trying to make noise about this for well 6 years now and here we are 6 years later and you know yeah a lot more people know about this problem and a lot more people can weaponize it if that's their choice the whole goal should be to lead these people though with your attitude and I think that the attitude here should be that not much is changing it's a clarification um and I would hope that you guys lead in that format because I believe that's what Jen Bramley is doing here is simply clarifying something that already exists so that's all I want to say um I guess since I do have another minute and a half um just a little history I've been running the brewery for 15 years now in those 15 years I've booked and hosted over 3,000 concerts no violations the one violation we did get was reneged so I think the track record is there um we've also spent over $2.5 million invested in live music in downtown denen to attract visitors all through the county and the tri count area alongside of national acts we have Grammy award-winning musicians and artists that come to our town we have producers um it's amazing the kind of art that happens in the small little building that a lot of people take for granted it's been there a long time we've been doing it we try not to grow the reason we don't grow is because we reinvest in the community I still drive a Honda Element that has a shitty paint job excuse my French in a little uh tiny shotgun house on belri street and you know I hope that all that money wasn't in vain because I wish I had it right about now if things were going a lot different so I appreciate you guys' time thank you Michael okay uh anyone else wish to speak to the noise ordinance I don't have any more cards all right I'll come back to the maker of the motion which was vice mayor frany yeah well I do think this is a clarification that's probably long overdue um I I do want to say um Candy Brian thank you I appreciate your heartfelt comments um in explaining kind of the perspective of what you guys went through I really appreciate that and um I um I actually also had a good talk with Michael Lynn Bryant and uh about um you know different issues and uh came away feeling really good about the direction we're trying to go and everybody working together um but as it relates to this particular one I just want to say I think it's a clarification again that is probably long overdue I am fully supportive of this thank you uh commissioner gal uh thank you mayor um I I I agree that it is just a clarification a and we're not really rewriting or creating an ordinance um I also have had a a very long meeting with Mike and Michael and if you ever have a a meeting with Mike you know it's never short so uh but it was but it was yes everybody knows that but but it was a wonderful meeting and and and good Insight um and so I I you know I I I talked pretty much at length probably a little too much at the first reading and apologize for that uh but this is just a clarification and I'm I'm good with this I was on the first reading I'm good with it now I just uh the noise you heard around this pardon the pun uh still concerns me on who we are as a community um uh and so it's up to us as a community to decide who and what we are and so we'll see uh this is just one of the many ordinances that will help determine that but U anyway that's all that I have mayor thank you thank you commissioner Walker thank you mayor um to to Echo my colleagues um you know I I obviously had a bit of a learning curve as the newest commissioner coming into this and uh um I did a lot of review of the old ordinance and what was for us right now for the second reading and uh I will say that U you know this this completely clarifies a very unclarified situation and you know you know left with that particular circumstance it um it it really created a burden on the entire community in the effort to enforce an ordinance that was not enforceable so I uh I believe that this does this uh is it perfect no no ordinance is perfect um but with that said I think that um I think this is absolutely step in the right direction um I do want to just say one thing about the with the uh Community patrol officer being being on the beat so to speak um this this does provide a pathway this is this is proactive enforcement but again I think that uh you know to take example of a lot of businesses out there that have the have uh agreements with the entertainment that they break in that essentially the entertainment acknowledges that they have to they have have to stop at 10:45 you know I I think we're we're taking the right steps so uh anyway I fully support this measure and uh I did last time too thank you thank you commissioner um commissioner Tonga thank you I accepted the uh the ordinance um the first time um but I did bring out a couple facts where I thought were facts and that were that on the procedural side um we got to a group was gotten together to to examine several things one of them was was this and out of that group is my understanding and I said this before I think that three of the four weren't particularly happy with this and didn't feel like this resolved resolved the the question that that they had in their mind so as to I'll just say Co cohabitating uh within the within the dam town so that that didn't make me feel very comfortable and then as I tried to look at this as a as an ordinance that then spreads throughout the entire Den Eden um I I I really wanted PE more people involved in the understanding of what was happening because a lot of this seems to be some misunder understandings um or or just an just an inability to understand what what's trying what we're trying to do and that we affect it uh properly having the having an a a sheriff walking around uh town from the hours of 11: to 3 when we do not have that now because of the because of a Sound Ordinance um sounds to me um like maybe we haven't solved maybe we really haven't solved this yet so that's why I was asking to go slow but I will uh I will be voting to to approve this the unlawful MCE ordinance thank you commissioner I agree with my colleagues this is just an adjustment I think we should have done this years ago um and I think we we would have been better you know um so bad on us uh but appreciate Jennifer you putting yourself out there and doing the memo I also want to thank the Briant for the meticulous record you kept from those meetings because really that's how we were able to get to this place I'm sorry I I don't know why my nose is is I'm just running here uh but I think what's important to say is I think we put sheriffs out there to they're not going to be out there just looking for noise they have other jobs to do and when we talk about a measurement of success I think if everybody knows what the noise level should be and how it's supposed to be enforced and the enforcement is occurring whether proactively or call the measurement of success is reducing the calls that's your measurement of success if businesses know what the rules they need to follow and the sheriff knows how to actually measure it correctly and from what point at what time um there should be less calls in the end and we're not sure that we're going to need a sheriff till 3:00 in the morning in the downtown if you look at how many businesses are open till 3:00 in this city I imagine there's probably about 10 and they're not all in the downtown several of them are in other areas um so I think the worry about the noise is Li should be limited I think this clarifies it it helps the enforcement better and we may find that we're not getting any complaints after 11 and maybe we take it till 12 or 1 I don't know um it'll be a test I do think something that's important that should happen is when we're giving our business tax receipts um we need people to acknowledge every year that they understand the noise ordinance whether they're Construction Company whether they're a restaurant whether they bar we used to do that when this first started uh 2008 or 9 or whenever it was particular licenses had to acknowledge and sign that I think they all should depending on what kind of business they have I mean there's all different kinds of businesses lawn services all of those people that that do affect noise um we can certain that mayor we will yeah I I just think that needs to be automatic because then if somebody says well I didn't know well you did know because you signed this document and I think that gives you a lot of weight you know and it makes the business Community or or the owner or whoever understand that and I do understand that uh you know noise is bothersome to residential folks I get that and that's why that quiet time in penel county is in residential zones we're not talking about residential zones it may AB but a residential Zone but I got to I got to assume that somebody that buys a house right next to a commercial District understands you're you're going to have a different effect than if you're in a gated community I'll call it or a single family neighborhood um so anyway I support it uh roll call vote please commissioner Walker hi commissioner toring hi commissioner gal I vice mayor frainy I and mayor Bowski I and that motion passes unanimously we're going to take a little five minute Comfort break and we'll be right back [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] now we have the uh second reading of ordinance 24-23 of the city of deden amending section 10732 outdoor dining regulations um City attorney would you please read ordinance 24-23 by title only ordinance 24-23 an ordinance of the city of deden Florida amending section 10732 outdoor dining regulations of the city of Duneden Land Development code to provide for outdoor hospitality and Sidewalk Cafe regulations amending appendix C development charges and impact fees to remove the fee for conditional use for outside dining and add a RightWay use agreement fee providing for codification providing for severability providing for conflict and providing for an effective date that was ordinance 24-23 read by title only thank you Jennifer can I have a motion to approve some move second commissioner G and commissioner Walker thank you Jennifer okay George welcome thank you Jennifer mayor vice mayor Commissioners thank you uh George Kenny on behalf of Community Development Department um I'm GNA if okay if it's okay with the commission I'm going to take the same approach that city manager did and kind of walk through the the PowerPoint again one more time and certainly happy to answer questions at the end um so as you may recall um the current ordinance um is uh codified in Land Development code section 10732 was adopted in December of 2011 um shortly after the CRA Master plans uh recognized and supports uh both outdoor dining and sidewalk cafes as indicated by the graphic to the right hand side of the slide uh and then beginning in January of 2023 the business resident uh and City committee uh on several occasions to discuss and provide Direction on an amendment with the focus primarily targeting the CRA um so I would say um just kind of the takeaway from this particular slide is that these items uh along with evolving market conditions and trends for enhanced outdoor dining experience is really what has led to some of the changes and suggestions that you'll see in this particular ordinance by way of background uh Community Development Department has uh over the time that this has been discussed offered an open invitation and have actually met with several businesses on the draft ordinance to discuss the review process and potential development considerations uh at last count approximately half dozen businesses have have have sat with us and discussed it uh and we've worked uh through that process with them as to what this ordinance might look for like for them as if adopted in its current in its current form uh the regulations much like the noise ordinance are Citywide uh so while the CRA is kind of what you're hearing most about these are Citywide regulations and of course the city interest is always about health safety and Welfare uh and specifically addressing the needs in this case for restrooms parking and means of egress uh the intent of the ordinance is really uh twofold uh first provide for Equitable regulations uh that could be consistently applied uh as noted in the first bullet um secondly was to clearly separate the regulations into two areas uh one being outdoor Hospitality which is those areas that are really occurring on private property um and would require through this uh process and through the existing process administrative approval uh the second part of it is the Sidewalk Cafe portion of the ordinance um which is really those dining areas that are on public rights of way and that's a slightly separate process that would work through a RightWay use agreement which has already been uh in play in the city for some time and and U uh there's a couple of examples on Main Street of of those types of establishments uh why is a permit needed um for the same reasons we currently request a permit uh the outdoor Hospitality by definition does not require a building permit uh where proper Life Safety congestion review would normally occur um so this does provide the opportunity for the city to assure adequate parking restroom facilities and those fire safety and egress uh measures that I referred to in the previous slide uh also the the need for uh an outdoor dining permit is to help us from a a codified perspective and for compliance purposes some of the uh changes to the existing ordinance um and these are really kind of the larger significant more significant changes and I'll kind of work through each bullet and you'll see when I get to the fourth bullet and I I'll I'll explain why that's red why that's redlined um but first separate Provisions for private property applications or RightWay applications as I mentioned um the inclusion in each of those particular sections for Clear definitions um so uh Our Land Development code is a little fuzzy on on those definitions in the in appendix C this brings those definitions right to the front and buries them right in the beginning of those chapters um the overall size uh of an outdoor dining area is going to be subject to parking and capacity occupancy limitations so in a sense self-regulating um and this fourth bullet uh uh as we were talking about it in in uh re one uh we were suggesting at that time that the current conditional use process be modified to a design review process but after hearing the discussion from the commission um we have kind of put forth an amendment that you'll see in the exhibit that's attached I think it's exhibit one the ordinance in your in your backup uh which which shows uh which reverts that back to what it used to be it would be a a a position in front of the board of adjustment and appeal and versus that lengthy and arduous design design review process that was discussed the fee for that would be significantly less um and if you did see your backup there is a copy of the application in there along with the fee which is $1,500 uh and just very quickly before I leave this slide and exhibit uh the the exhibit below kind of shows what a 2,000t area might look like and the reason we're showing 2,000t is that's the trigger uh so if you bring in a project that's under 2,000 square ft uh it's administrative approved if you bring in a project that's 2,000 square feet or more we're now suggesting that that would go to the baa for disposition uh a couple of other uh nuances to the uh uh proposed language the permit would be transferable if the operation and approval uh the repr approved area Remains the Same so if the if the new owner is actually running that business and operation exactly the same that permit's transferable otherwise if there's an expansion a permit would be a new permit would be required there are some additional fencing requirements when a budding residential use is indicated by the graphic in the lower right hand corner uh and we've also included in addition to the reference to the noise ordinance uh some nuisance a reference to our uh environmental provisions and more specifically chapter 34 and our nuisance Provisions so those are included as well and what those Provisions would allow us to do is if we do have that bad actor uh we would have the ability to work through that process uh and um um look to correct or mitigate uh the issues on site with the ultimate hopefully not wouldn't have to go here but ultimately could revoke the permit under those Provisions uh and finally vacating the property Provisions have been removed uh in favor of the existing language that still sits inside of the uh the proposed language that the area is limited to the legal hours of operation so if the business if the if the brick and mortar portion of the business is open till 12:00 then your outdoor dining area is open till 12:00 um I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this slide I think it got a little confusing at first read but this is just the takeaway from this slide is is really this we have 30 zoning categories in the city of dun Eden 11 of them would support this type of use so when looking at that when you and you when you calculate those zoning areas by land area about 5.67% of the land mass with those zoning categories on it would be able to support this type of operation so that's really the takeaway and I won't get into the zoning categories because I know that gets confusing for for folks that are watching but the the idea really is we have 30 zoning categories Citywide 11 could take advantage of these Provisions uh finally uh we wanted to make sure that it's clearly understood that pass written approvals are HED um and we do that through these three caveats I'll read those into the record very quickly any current outdoor Hospitality area that has received conditional use approval shall continue pursuant to the conditions of that approval any current outdoor Hospitality area that has received written City permissions may continue pursuant to those written approvals and three any current outdoor Hospitality area is properly applied for and received an outdoor dining permit may continue under those approvals provided that area and seating approvals authorized by that approval have not expanded um so certainly you can if you have an existing outdoor dining permit you can continue to operate under that permit or you can come in under the new rules then you can modify that permit and then finally um these are Provisions that were shown to you at read one they are incorporated into the ordinance in your exhibit and as part of this record so um uh I won't get back into them but you can see the two changes that were made and incorporated into the ordinance um so with that uh Commissioners that that concludes my presentation I'm happy to answer any questions thank you um commissioner gal any questions no questions mayor commissioner Walker no questions vice mayor yeah I I do um we already talked about the Law Enforcement issue um and um and I think it's probably even more important here just for overall activity that that presence will make a difference um so I don't have to ask questions about that but um I did want to make sure um you know the teeth of the of the ordinance that if there is a bad actor um how how will that process flow so you know obviously it's Education First one of one of the one of the issues for us as your Community Development Department is we're often not the front face to this it's the penel county sheriff's office so I think we're going to have to work with them uh maybe maybe have an understanding of what they're seeing out there on month-to-month basis um but we um we need to we we we did tie this back to the nuisance provisions and so let me let me just give you a little background on the way that works vice mayor so it's under Article 4 chapter 34 and so what you do is you establish a pattern of nuisance activity and I think it was mentioned last time that can be three complaints within 30 days that can be seven complaints within a 6-month period the city then issues what's called a declaration of chronic nuisance if there's an issue uh including um which includes a requirement for the submission of a re remediation action plan by the bad actor if you will uh the city that must be provided within 15 days of of notice from the city um the city then determines the adequacy of that remediation Plan and there's factors in those nuisance Provisions that spell out what what those what those what has to be done and what can be done and what the what the what the applicant would need to follow to to basically come back into compliance so failure to result uh a failure to comply with that remediation action plan then results in what's called an entry of a chronic nuisance service order at which time um we could potentially revoke the outdoor dining permit um there is also an extreme provision in here so there is a step uh depending on whether or not it it's it's needed there is a non-ad valorum assessment on Real Property piece to this as well so there if there is a if there's a financial component to this for money that the city's putting out to remediate or Abate this situation that can be recaptured okay thank you um my other question is um and I I got this feedback today and they admitted it was kind of late late into the game um but it the question was you know but and it's not the first time I've heard it though like why not compromise why not make you know at 1:00 instead of 3:00 okay and so I guess I just wanted to ask because you made the recommendation and I know that this is something you thought through can you can you clarify to everybody why at the end of the day you thought that didn't make sense to kind of pick up a spot in the middle and compromise okay so thank you vice mayor um the the issue of 1:00 or 3:00 during the course of the of the business resident um city council didn't come up in terms of why not compromise on that particular time frame so from the city's perspective let's go through the three legs of the stool if we if we can from the city's perspective the conversations that George and I have was really regarding the enforceability of it uh right now we have I think 26 uh uh businesses that have the outdoor dining permit uh and have the vacate order at 11:00 and that is first of all it you know the Sheriff's Office they're not going to go out and vacate the premises they're going to issue a citation or you know um so so the enforceability itself didn't really really meet the orig original intent and what we didn't want to do is forward an ordinance the city commission that was unenforceable the other part of it was that that the residents were and they can speak for themselves the residents were um adamant that the vacat stay in and The Business businesses were ad let the vacate come out and so what we did as part of the compromise because of the enforceability issue from the city's City staff's professional perspective is we added teeth to the ordinance to protect the residents and you want to talk a little bit about some of what what those were George yeah so I mean in essence the noise ordinance and the nuisance Provisions are are are are the are the two two larger ones but there's also the fencing Provisions that were included so there's additional fencing requirements um noise atten attenuation uh yes I'm sorry yes so and there's as a requirement of submission if you are adjacent to a property that's being used for residential purposes a noise attenuation plan is required and it has to be done by an acoustical engineer so it it can't be just the back of the napkin noise attenuation plan it would have to be a professionally professionally done plan um so those are four I can think of but um the idea was to um protect those properties that were specifically adjacent to uh the commercial properties can I ask a question on that sure of course I mean if it's private property you can't force people to go inside right by law I mean when you say it's un enforceable you can't tell people to get off their private property can you I mean that's the unenforceable piece of it I I just want to clarify that that's well as a zoning provision I mean as a zoning provision it's for in those terms safe he safe I mean how do you tell people they can't be on their own private property it's a real question well I think that that that was certainly one of the issues that staff grappled with yeah was I don't know how you do that that's essentially a curfew well can't do that either it it it seems also that it would be burdensome for the business owner because they're they're having I'm not even looking at that yet that's the obvious I'm just saying you mentioned enforceability and that's what struck this in my head I mean you can't tell people that they can't be on their own property that they have to vacate that area it's private property you can do that when it's public property which is why the vacate language was there to begin with I think that it's it's really important to note that that really what we're doing is adding restrictions to the outdoor dining yeah itself and so there are areas right now that that that have outdoor dining and Outdoor Activity um that are not regulated by parking or bathrooms right um and if they're adjacent to residential the wall is not in place we're requiring that those areas come in with a permit within the next 3 years and and essentially affect these regulations and so what what George and I really grappled with with a vacate versus no vacate issue was we we are Brading the scope of this ordinance to not just those areas that are within the RightWay or on private property in 500 square ft but to all businesses and their outdoor areas and so that that was a Genesis of the enforceability issue from our perspective the outdoor dining says that you have to vacate by 11 it's in the code and you sign a piece of paper saying I heard that I agree I will vacate so they're agreeing to it we're not requiring that obviously because we're not recommending it as part of the outdoor hospitality permit so instead of that as we said we baked in uh requirements of of the ordinance and of the business owners to help uh mitigate that that noise these will come in permit by permit we're going to look at what the surrounding um area is the adjacency to residential the noise attenuation some of the outdoor activities which may create noise and work with the property owners to make sure that those adjacent residential areas are protected but if I may um some of our businesses have operated using their outdoor space for a long time yes regardless of people that expanded yes is that correct yes because I think that's a little bit where the difficulty becomes so it it is and it's it's it's really the Crux of some of this disagreement and the conversation because some of them for a very long time some of them since Co um and some got an outdoor uh dining permit and and they're within the area that outdoor dining permit so what we're trying to do is to make the play the playing playing ground level and everybody's subject to the same regulations and everybody knows what's expected of them thank you questions commissioner TGA thank you is this require conditional use or is this now just automatic that someone can do this if they have the if if they have the uh forget about the zoning if if they have the parking and in the restroom they can go up to a higher level now than what they could before so is first of all is it conditional it it's conditional use once it exceeds 2,000 sare ft Sor it's it would be a conditional use requirement once it exceeds 2,000 square ft if if you can get to the so if you can get to the 2,000 sare ft based on those self-regulating limitations that you just mentioned if you if you have the parking if you have the bathrooms to support more than 2,000 ft then you would have to go for a public review so we are we're vastly expanding the outdoor dining capability correct and that is that is in part controlled by zoning zoning is we we we look to see what's compatible with our comp plan and our strategic plan strategic plan is less more is less specific is less specific than and certainly what what zoning is and certainly uh what the comp plan is but the comp plan uh sort of leads leads what goes within the zoning correct not to that specificity but yes from a land use perspective you're you know there is a future land use provision it talks about the city's Vision over the next 20 years from a policy perspective so we really we really have expanded the C the capacity and capability for the outdoor dining throughout the entire city yes because this go this this goes this regulation then goes throughout the throughout the city it it does but but it's the same as it was before so the existing language it just caps you at 500 but you can go more than 500 you just need to get a conditional use this just opens that 500 up to 2,000 and then you have to get the conditional use and then the conditional use com so gives us a little more administrative a pretty big increase from 500 to 2,000 some instances yes yeah so it vastly increases that yeah um May I one thing though may I commissioner T just add on to that uh that the conditional use process um design review originally start off at 6,000 with staff's recommendation uh residents wanted to go down to 2,000 which we did uh and then the the kind of the impetus behind that was some sort of a notice requirement that you're going to have this larger area of outdoor dining adjacent de residents so we'll notify everybody within 5 100 S ft George M um you know via direct mail notification that this is going to occur that there will be a public hearing so we can hear from the public that's why we put that in there so now for example TF tourist facility which is a bunch on the causeway for example um have we gotten input from from those folks I believe the answer is I'm not sure so commissioner the this has been out there for a long time uh the business resident community has uh discussed this I know it's been out on social media I know we've advertised it on several occasions we I think we've done what we what we really could from an Outreach perspective we haven't specifically gone out there and and did like a say a mini town hall meeting or something along those lines but but you know this is this is uh more than two years in the making at this point so it's it's and it's been I think kind of out there for a while transpar is is I so I don't believe there um so I don't know what the people in Pinehurst how they feel about this and Patricia I have no idea I have no idea what they feel about this on on Douglas I'm not sure what's been presented to those folks with the understanding of what could happen within their Community within their residential communities um from this now of course you try to match the noise ordinance with this um but but forget forget that so you still have activity going on uh within a community very difficult to police because it's it's not Amplified sound it sounds that it can occur when they occur um and and we just don't know that yet um we do live in a in a community that in some cases the the r60s are set aside separate and are not not affected at all and there's other communities that could be affected uh dearly that I don't I'm not sure that we've communicated well with them and that's one of the reasons why I have said let's go slow with this one we need to go slow with this one it's a it's a huge increase uh in the square footage and you have made that statement correct that you believe that that is a that is a big increase from 500 to 2,000 and then there's another then there's another permit they can get to go larger than that but they can just they can just do that based on meeting certain requirements that allow them to do that correct you said that uh so I'm going to tell you in my in my this is anecdotal obviously because I don't know until we have this thing in place and we're actually doing it but my guess is it's going to be very rare that somebody can reach 2,000 square fet so we don't know and um this this the fiber of our community if you look at our strategic plan which we just worked on and just kind of more or less appr approved it's going to be in its final final uh uh level um some of those someone could say this may be this may be pushing that um I don't know about the comp plan does this push some issues within the comp plan I don't believe believe so now okay I looked at some things and I'm and and if you read them it's a little bit complicated but we use all those fancy words of of being a unique uh idic uh all those all those wonderful words uh for our downtown a walkable downtown um and and for our community here and this could this could have a big effect on the community I I for me for me I'm not sure that we have gone deep enough uh in in the resolution of of of a decision that's being made by by staff now going to be approved by John I appreciate your question your your comments but I mean we really just need questions because I I don't let anybody else do this we've got to have questions so why why couldn't we why can't we go slower with this and and piece this out over time and present it to those communities that that we know can be affected by this and that's not just a question to you then but it's just a I'm going to leave it as a general question for everyone well I think we should answer the question how long have we taken to do this so I mean I'm I'm just going to say this is been in I've worked in other communities um I think there's been a lot of time time I think there's been a lot of thought put into this uh there was a lot of collaboration there's a lot of give and take um and that was mostly granted through the business resident City committee um I think we've been as transparent as we possibly could have been um we did not go to that length for one particular ordinance provision to do sort of a town hall style meeting that's certainly if that's the prerogative of the commission that's something we can certainly do but um a singular ordinance doesn't typically uh um go to that extent particularly with the length of time that's been put into this this and and the thought that's gone into these particular updates how many months have you been working on this at least two years at this point there were four residents on this committee and how did the four residents vote on approving this plan so if I may the there there weren't official votes the the BRC is a task force that was put together for discussion the residents would meet amongst themselves or the businesses um and and they would they would come back to the BRC with their consensus Direction the residents weren't weren't actually all on the same page the entire time on some of these things the business is same thing sometimes they would disagree but they would come back with with um their uh their position on on any number of things as a matter of fact the outdoor dining or outdoor Hospitality ordinance enveloped everything else that we were doing um and in fact there was a retailer there who I I got a letter from saying can we please move on and do something else um at this point so and we're going to do that um but the it took a long long time to get here and the reason for that was was we really wanted to put before the commission everybody from the BRC remembers we wanted to put before the city commission an easy decision and we did not unfortunately that that was the goal we got as much input as as we felt that we could get and put the ordinance together and frankly commissioner TGA uh we weren't moving forward with the ordinance we weren't changing it we were an impass on everything and it was really time to put it before the commission for your definitive approval or or denial of of the ordinance itself um as George said said staff if if the direction of the city commission is to hold Town Town Hall meetings on that then of course we take your direction that's that's what we'll do but we feel at this point the ordinance is as good as we're going to be able to get it um and we do feel that there is some urgency in bringing some of these um um businesses into Conformity with the code um as you recall November of 2022 I asked you if if on this subject you would give the BRC time to work so that we weren't issuing notice of violation in areas that would or could would come into compliance in the future but it took us a long time to get that input and a long time to get here and certainly a long time to get here this evening at second reading so um uh you know we didn't go out to to the causeway and we didn't specifically invite those folks to meetings it is on our web page as one of our projects though and has been for a very long time as well so we did feel that it was out there um and that there was a general knowledge and anybody had the opportunity at any point to join the BRC uh and there is every BRC had a portion of it that was the the citizen input um and they could they could address the BRC as well so we had uh public comments during the course of the BRC and I can tell you nobody was a shrinking violet on that BRC and nobody's a shrinking violet when it came to the public input either so any other question I'll make comments about that later okay I don't remember where I left off I think it's just you just me for questions oh okay I got you guys um so the amount of space that moving forward that someone can have for the outdoor space will be dictated by um their occupancy and parking and bathrooms and life safety issues that's correct versus is some arbitrary thing that's correct so in the downtown it it won't be as easy to have 2,000 s ft because parking is limited or they'll have to pay in the parking bank which is you know a big chunk of change there are parking incentives as you and and bathrooms and you know space right but in the future you could see something like this easily on State Road 580 or Alt 19 right absolutely yeah okay but the size of the space is not just it's dictated by Life Safety is life whatever occupancy and life safety issues correct and that load so it's not arbitrary no okay no and that was that was that BRC discussion to work it back down from 6,000 to 2,000 because we were looking at the occupant loads for that 2,000 square fet which is roughly 135 people okay I think those are all the questions that's the only question I have but can I just clarify I mean but businesses have always had the opportunity to utilize their outdoor space yeah I mean there's nothing new about that no okay I just right so I'm okay no we did but we're just not enforcing all those things that were supposed to be enforcing until we came to an answer correct correct okay okay we'll open this up to public comment um Isaac come on down give us your name and address for the record and you'll have 3 minutes thank you I'm Isaac waleski 2180 Santa Pao Drive I am the President of the downtown Denine Merchants Association as well as a resident so I am for adopting the ordinance as presented when really listening to both sides it can sound like a zero some game sometimes where one side will win while the other side loses but when you really listen to each side they don't they're actually not as far apart as they seem so from the resident side what really came through was that for Mo for the most part people were tolerant of how Duneden has grown yet the big fear is that about that growth changing things or that you can have um open the door for exploitation and so avoiding that at all cost and then on the business side most businesses have been operating under the assumption that the vacate provision doesn't apply since it's on private property and what we learned at the last uh commission meeting at the first reading is that the at the time of the adoption of the existing outdoor dining ordinance in 2011 this too was the view of the city namely that the intent was to regulate public areas being used by businesses and not bothering with private property the businesses in the city have already been operating under under the assumption that there was no provision to vacate the outdoor areas on private property in effect creating a status quo the confusion we face was the limitations of using an ordinance that was intended to regulate the public right of way dining to include all of outdoor dining the ordinance in front of you reduces that confusion by separating the public right of-way use in the sidewalk CA section from outdoor dining on private property this in effect brings the code in alignment to the status quo and captures how businesses in the city have been operating up until now while this dialogue has been heated at times it has also sparked productive conversations between business owners and their neighbors about what is acceptable is everyone getting exactly what they want no but for the most part it codifies what we've been doing all along and which has led to the city of dun Eden to grow to be the place that we live and work in today thank you thank you Isaac uh Katie dearm hello welcome hi uh my name is Katie du pisi I'm the chair of the Chamber of Commerce uh here in Den Eden and um I also own two homes here right by the stadium uh uh 6:30 Athens Street and 637 belri um we strongly support the removal um removing the word vacate from our current ordinance businesses open past 11:00 p.m. should be allowed to utilize their entire premises including the outdoor space until they close our existing noise ordinance enforced by local sheriff's office already ensures noise levels remain reasonable past 11: p.m. currently our downtown patrol officer shifts end at 11 so to address this and balance this with the um residents needs maybe we should extend the uh Sheriff's Patrol hours until um 3:00 a.m. or the last bar closes we're not advocating for loud music or on outdoor patios past 11:00 p.m. just for patrons to be able to step outside for a quiet conversation or uh to be with their dog or to smoke um interestingly if business owners cover their patios the vacate patio ordinance wouldn't apply however the property owners may be prohibited to such to cover such patios unfair penalizing these establishments um imagine if we were all forced inside our homes at 11:00 p.m. and couldn't be outside that would not right our homes are regulated by a noise ordinance and businesses should be as well not by any an unfair vacate rule please allow the businesses to operate fully during their normal business hours and and consider extending the sheriff's Patrol thank you for your consideration one other thing I do want to mention um to John's Point um earlier um I got the stats from reboot they put um a petition out to the community uh so that they could have feedack back on the outdoor dining um hours and ordinance and they had um over uh 4 thou they had 4,176 people signed that petition um in approval of uh this um outdoor ordinance and extending um the outdoor dining hour so I just wanted to point that out just because um I feel like a lot of the people in the community have spoken um and this is a petition that went out to to the entire public so I just wanted to share that thank you so much thank you kitty um John Chine do I need to St mate thank you yeah it's a new one thanks appreciate it a million years ago when I was a a kid working in technology I had a client named Pizza Hut maybe you've heard of them and every time we needed to do an improvement technology-wise they would say to us do you know how many pizzas I need to sell in order to pay for this this isn't really for the small businesses about safety or anything about like that it's about costs when you say hey you just need a fence hey you just need some more bathrooms hey you just need to do more noise attenuation hey you just need three more parking spots that small business owner is saying hey my daughter's not going to college because the expense is incredible now if they were starting from ground zero or if there was a law already in place okay but there really wasn't a law in place and if they were inside it would be grandfathered but it's not grandfathered and we're dealing with different businesses and different business models it's a Liquor Bar they have huge profits if it's a restaurant their profits are significantly less so when you look at these businesses you say what is the impact to these businesses and how are they going to possibly afford this and the only thing I ask that you do is to take a look at you're going to pass this OD right take a look at the impact of these businesses and see if you can come up with some concessions when it comes to permit fees and possibly some small grants just like C what it does to incentivize businesses that would allow these businesses to buy parking at a discounted fee perhaps to to get A5 or $10,000 Grant to put a put an additional bathroom in small little things you still have 200 grand left over from the arpa budget maybe you could allocate some of that to a grant fee and it has to be based on you know if if a if a business is making tons of money and has plenty of cash you're not going to give them a you know money but if you have a business that has a reasonable expectation that they want to stay in business these 2,000 square fet that already exist where I'm serving coffee and and eggs and toast how many eggs do they need to to sell to pay for that fence or that bathroom so all I say is when you implement something like that there's an economic impact to these businesses an unanticipated one and three years is a decent amount of time but you're also asking for a lot of money to invest for small businesses that are just really doing whatever they can to provide for their family that's it thank you thank you Hunter Bryant give us your name and address for the record uh Hunter Bryant 518 Bel trees um I would like to start off by saying thank you to Mayor Julie um your comments at the end of the last commission meeting brought me a lot of relief um you actually took accountability for what happened with the outdoor dining ordinance and I really appreciate that um also Jennifer you've been helpful through many things so thank you um I believe that a lot of blame has been put on businesses and I don't want to shift that blame to anyone else but a lot of what has happened regarding this ordinance and sound issues could have been prevented if the city and commission was doing their due diligence um many of you Commissioners said at the last meeting that you spoke to many residents but did you speak to any of the people who work downtown did you speak to any of the bar staff D edenbury my family's business has been having issues since 2019 regarding harassment from Neighbors about sound issues did you reach out to us when this first happened when hob was having known problems with a certain building in town did you reach out to them because most of you have done very little to solve these problems the issues grow bigger and bigger until they explode which is exactly what has happened some of you spoke about how disappointed you were to see online comments specifically from businesses did you ask them why they are so frustrated no you didn't instead you looked at us at the last meeting and said we needed to say thank you to residents for how they treated us during covid and that is how out of touch some of you seem to be as if we don't thank these customers every single day when they come through the door you all have pitted neighbors against businesses and I say neighbors not residents because businesses owners are residents we are all residents you have create created that divide with your lack of enforcement of your own codes instead of putting money into your own code enforcement you are more willing to put money into the pcso which has a history of not properly enforcing city ordinances I truly believe this town is having an identity crisis it wasn't when I moved here 10 years ago you all have not had the guts to stand up and say what direction this town is going in and what it stands for I have always been taught that if you stand for nothing that you will fall for everything and that is what has happened one person complains and we need to restrict downtown Southern Living calls and we are all about quiet retirement but TBT calls and all of a sudden we have a spectacular night life if you all do not know what this town is about how are you supposed to represent it it's time we stand up and have the guts to disappoint people and say who we are not everyone is going to like it but I need to know so I can know if I will stay I need to know so I can decide if I will raise my three-year-old son here because if it is going to be a sleepy retirement community that doesn't celebrate diversity of opinion then I will pack my bags and I will leave attitude reflects leadership and we so desperately need you to lead thank you thank you Melissa McCormick um Melissa McCormick 247 Scotland Street um been here before and I'm going to keep this short and sweet um first of all I do want to emphasize I'm not a chronic nuisance causing whereas president I've never called the police about a noise ordinance issue but have instead engaged directly with the business owners city city staff and my elected Commissioners which until tonight I thought was the appropriate way to do it apparently some people feel like that's weaponizing the commission if we reach out to our elected representatives I never felt that way I'm really troubled by the city's handling of this process echoing what was just said after speaking at the August 1st meeting many residents expressed their gratitude to me for voicing their concerns the next day a stranger at Edgewater Park approached me and acknowledged my courage and bravery for speaking out for what many of us believe it's disheartening to think that the residents think expressing our opinions to our elective official is an act of Courage we should be able to do that without feeling like we're going to get trashed um that was meaningful to me I had I hate to say I hesitated when he asked me when I was the W if I was the woman who spoke because I wasn't sure who it was I did not know him and I'm born and raised here in dun Eden went to kindergarten at the Church of the Good Shepherd I've been here my whole life so that response from him is the dunen that I know and love and I will say the silver silver lining in this for the for me in this whole process is I have gotten to make many new friends Mary and Barbara and a lot of other residents from different parts of dun Eden and I reconnected with a lot of old friends so that part's been good but I do think the city needs to take a hard look at the feedback they get from the residents because it's not easy to do it because we did not engage in social media in any of that I came directly as a resident to my elective officials so I respectfully urge you as my elected Commissioners to advocate for the residents you represent and reconsider these proposed changes thanks thank you Melissa Devin KPS let give us your name and address for the record yes uh my name is Devon KPS I'm at 412 Bel trees I am also the owner of the seventh Sun brewery so I'm a resident and a business owner um I know that we've gone around and around on this a lot I just want to say thank you guys for all of the work that you've put into trying to find some compromise here I know that when you do compromise nobody's totally happy but I feel like you know obviously this vacate piece has to be removed and you know some of the points that were made tonight make that even more obvious you know you can't enforce that um but also uh you know to Mayor to the mayor's point last time about the 2,000 square fet um it's already very challenging with permits and all the things that you've got to do the people that you've got to hire higher to get things done to you know operate your business um if that wall gets even higher and more expensive then you know that can be challenging to businesses so I appreciate that it's been increased to 2,000 because there's pieces that are put into this that protect it it's not like okay now it's 2,000 now everybody just gets a 2,000 foot patio it's based on parking on bathrooms and all these things so and also the fact that I want to put in my point that I feel like this has been out here for a long time it has been worked done for a long time and a lot of people know about it and so I don't think that there's anybody anybody who doesn't know about it isn't paying attention or doesn't want to be involved in this so I support the ordinance as it's written and I appreciate the work that's been put into it thank you thank you Michael Lynn hello again Michael Bryant 518 Bell trees I think I forgot to do that last time um first off I want to tell the mccormix that I wish that you were my neighbors because that's exactly the type of neighbor that we would want at the dunan brewery um unfortunately what brought us here is a neighbor that didn't do that um and it escalated and escalated and escalated so you know I walked up here I have about eight different speeches written for this moment and you know I listen to Melissa speak and I feel her I understand um you know it's a very nuanced very complicated situation so you know yeah I'm not I got two minutes to figure out what I'm going to say so you know I just want to talk on a couple different things um you know my family is kind of heartbroken by some of the things said last time on August 1st um some of those things and up in newspapers that then got pushed out in our community and had negative effects on our business and I appreciate Jeff gal I appreciate the apology that means a lot and I appreciate the conversation that we had and I think that we did come to an understanding so I appreciate that a lot um it was said that you know we should revisit this in a couple years well as far as I know it's going to be 3 years to come into compliance is that right George you know we need to be given a chance to see it does if anything the noise ordinance had issues for 6 years before it got taken a look at so you know I understand taking it slow but I think we should take it slow on all different angles of it including revisiting it um there was some words said and that also ended up in the newspaper kind of dispar towards our neighbors in eore I understand why people say that we don't want to be ebore eore noise ordinance till 3:00 a.m. is 86 it's 65 the rest of the day there are plenty of artists creatives young people friends of mine musicians working people that live and work in ebore city and it's a very vibrant place and I know that it gets a bad rap from anybody that doesn't spend time there but there are a lot of beautiful things there too and I don't think I want ebore City here necessarily but I think that it's important to say that eore is our neighbor and if we are going to talk about being good neighbors we should do that as a municipality as well so you know the last thing I um wanted to clarify was it's kind of been a sticking point that whether or not the outdoor dining affected um private property or not and I just wanted to take a a minut a quick sound bite from one of the meetings about that back in 2012 is that you know I think what we're trying to do here is we're trying to use public RightWay this is not private property this is not we're not governing what people do on their private property but we're trying to encourage businesses to expand their services to that was mayor Edgars at the time I appreciate you guys thank you and our last card is Kimberly Platt Aloha Kimberly plat um business owner and property owner of 516 Grant Street for the record um let's bring some lightness to the air right now um I get so tense coming to these meetings because everybody here is so passionate on both sides of it that's what D's about oh God don't do it cuz then I'm GNA do it sorry I'm crying because we've been doing this for so long and I feel like tonight it's coming to an end and it's coming to a great end people took a lot of time away from their families from their businesses from their life from everything that they would normally be doing to put their time in to be a part of this and as I said last meeting I'll say the same thing again it's out there you just got to want to know what's going on don't wait until it goes onto social media and everybody's fighting about it be a participant in this community because it makes a huge difference and I'm up here getting emotional because I feel like I made a difference I feel like we made a big difference this time I think that the residents and the businesses came together and boy we fought and we argued and we went through things and we hugged and we shook hands correct and it made a big difference in what we were doing so I just would w u l d like to say thank you for my w o d Mahalo you guys thank you okay I don't have any other cards is there anyone else here that would like to speak toward works the outdoor dining all right I'm going to come back to the maker of the motion which I believe was commissioner G was that you it was me mayor okay thank you very much um yes should we go slower should I got to I have no idea what that looks like if we were to go any slower than we have um could we have had more resident input could we have tried to stretch out um I you know I think it gets to the point and I don't know the statistic behind it but right if you've got enough people in the room by expanding the number of people in it I don't know that you get any any better outcome and uh as far as I'm concerned part of the issue and the tension that we have in the room tonight is because it took so long to get where we are and in that is no slight on on anybody it took as long as it took uh but the longer it took the more tensions grew um and that's and that's disappointing um vacate not to vacate um my opinion is that vacate had no value right if the if the intention of vac was to protect residents from the noise from the noise then the noise ordinance does that so you have not eliminated any power if that's what the word anybody wants to use I don't know if I want to use it um but the ability of the resident to uh to take issue with it um and the idea that if you have vacate uh in there then you are taking an opportunity away from the businesses to make money um not knowing whether or not those customers be making noise or not um and then you have the whether or not it's enforceable kind of thing uh other than that uh my my role in this right wrong indifferent is my goal really was to let the BRC make the sausage that you had City had businesses and residents all in the same room hammering it out let them come up with a solution and then my job is to vote on it um the reason um I talked to the residents is because they actually reached out to me I thought I'm letting the sausage be made let it get made but they reached out and wanted to have a conversation had businesses reached out to me I would have been more than happy to have that conversation I want meet with anybody about anything anywhere in any time uh seriously anytime if you if it's 6:00 a.m. that's where I am uh but other than that most of this really does impact the businesses and making sure that that they're Meeting those standards and I'm I'm not hearing anything negative from them a few about the cost and that's and that's an issue we've got 3 years so it's a matter of let's see how it goes um that's to me the beauty of of ordinances if we've really done something wrong we can revisit it but the idea that we have taken so long to get here and that through all those years have been full of tension uh I am so happy so happy to get this behind me and uh I'm sure you all as well uh Kim I was very disappointed uh but you but you did rally at the end to say w o d when you mentioned light in the room and I thought that's where you were going I thought very good somebody's kind of talk about wood um as you on the first reading but anyway so I'm in favor of this and I'm happy to see the sunrise tomorrow thank you mayor thank you commissioner gal commissioner Walker Oh yes thank you mayor um yes I would concur this this has been going this has been a long road and uh I really honestly think that we are at that point in time where we need to put this behind us um just a few points uh residents shouldn't be impacted by excessive noise they shouldn't be impacted by whether the business vacates or not the businesses also have a responsibility to make sure that they are being a good neighbor and a good citizen of the community what I what I don't think is is that um I don't think that the businesses should bear the bre front of having to enforce that's vacate because that's exactly who shoulders it falls on um vacate is not the way and the because of the fact that it's it's you know it's imposing a really un unenforceable situation what is enforcable I believe the noise ordinance that we passed is enforcable I also believe the fact that we will have cpos on heavy nights enforcing those noise ordinances um the one thing I did hear that I I agree with um I I hate to say it but I think 3 years from now we're probably going to be revisiting this at least part of it but I I really do believe we need we need to we need to take metrics we need to understand if this is working or not but now is truly the time to to get past this and move on thank you thank you commissioner vice mayor yes um so um I did want to um just take a minute to um talk about the the compromise scenario that I hadn't heard so much about out there because for a while like I was there I mean I was like why don't we just do 1:00 I was there and um and so when I hear it from you know people I respect a lot I get it because I and the city manager will tell you I was hounding her why don't we just go with the compromise and um but as I started to talk with and and this is complicated that's what's hard about it and obviously all of all of us up here were hoping the BRC was going to solve it and because a lot of times that was what happened but but unfortunately not every issue was solved but so as I talk to Residents and businesses I felt that that doing the compromise would really and I I mentioned this a little bit last time would really hurt some of the really good actors in our city um I I'll I'll call her out again Kathy Carlson at blur who's who's operated that outdoor area for a long time and her neighbors are like why would you hurt Kathy why would you do that um you know Bowsers Janet who takes cookies and and tries to be very courteous with her neighbors and and when it really hit me was when I was um on a Saturday night um over by Artisan passing sa club and I looked to see what time they closed and they closed at 2: a.m. and people were seated in those just that little area of seating having a drink and all I could think was like blow the whistle got to go inside now I just I couldn't pick sure doing that and so that's my I I just wanted to explain that rationale of how I got to the point that it doesn't really it doesn't make sense one size fits all doesn't make sense which is why for me I ended up at that kind of that place where um well before I move on let me also say I didn't just think about the good actors I thought about our customers and residents like I said before like I'm a person that sometimes you know Kathy sorry but it's like I got to get outside of blur so I can think cuz it's loud in there and just you know be able to talk outside and um you know I'd be one that would be outside Sounder Club trying to be able to talk and and so I so I I just think there's a lot of reasons that to kind of overly legis legislate and restrict private property outdoor areas is it's just it's too far it's too far and so I think we found the way to do it which is by having having that noise ordinance and having those law enforcement that that that you know ability and presence because truthfully like I talked to some residents too I mean we have places open till 3:00 a.m. and sometimes it's not about noise it's about people you know urinating in a yard or things like that and and now we'll have we'll have presence right but that's not going to change because those places are allowed to be open late whether they're indoors or Outdoors um so um I am supporting the ordinance um as recommended by our staff and of course with the understanding that we're going to not put it all on the residence we are going to have that law enforcement presence it should not have to be on the residence I agree with that um and then of course the commitment that truly dealing with Bad actors up to and including removing their right to have the outsoor door area um so I'll just end with i I truly respect the opinions and perspectives on the issue and I really truly from my heart hope once the decision is made tonight that everyone will work together in a positive manner to help make it work you know our downtown live work and play environment is all about balance and about being good neighbors that's really what it's about and um I know we can do this I really know we can do this and again I'll just end by saying and you know what if we do get some unintended consequences we can adjust and we will so let's work together I know we can do this thank you vice mayor commissioner Tonga thank you just so you all know um I'm trying to do what's the best for dun Eden and I'm just trying to explore all parts of this and I want to take into consideration uh things that we don't know and we're taking some we're taking some chances and to revisit for example if we decided that we didn't want to have people to be able to have move up to 2,000 square foot those that did would be grandfathered in but there would have been unintended consequences because we decided that that didn't work now what happens with that do we live with the unintended consequences I heard some people in here say um that there were studies done I I never I never saw any study I don't know who how it was submitted I don't know who took the study um was it regulated was it was it a good study I I don't know um they say 4,000 people said they wanted something and I just I mean I don't know about that I come from the the position of I was on the on the CRA AC which is the advisory committee back during some of this time period and so I have a history of of some of this for example as you probably well know um we wanted to make sure that we had at least two residents on the CRA AC advising the CRA community redevelopment agency and had an advisory committee to advise them what should take place in the CRA the 200 17 Acres we have which is our downtown and a little bit more and so we wanted to make sure we had people that that weren't business folks they couldn't be business folks as a matter of fact they had to be a resident in the CRA but could not have a a business here because what we were attempting to do is we were attempting to bring people in a live work and play environment into this downtown to have it be a very very special place a very very special downtown and in order to do that each party has to give just a little bit of course and so we came up with some there were some rules about that and and if my memory serves me correct and I think it does some of the businesses were pretty pleased with with the proposal that was made and and that they were living with and that was that we were they were going to live together um folks were going to live down here and they're going to be very close to some of these uh some of these establishments but again it was our downtown um it was was not an entertainment center it was a downtown that had entertainment and it had great restaurants and the oldest uh the oldest brewery in in the State of Florida which we all bragged about and took every we always took somebody there when they came to visit with us we're really proud of all of that but we work we live together and we work together I also in 20 probably 15 went through a a uh what what is that what is that called again the the review when when you want if you want to I'm sorry thank you what what ordinance Review Committee no I'm sorry the business when when you're going to build something you're going to you bring It Forward DRC design DRC the DRC and well these that that is it's late our brains just aren't working out far and so I went through there and and we proposed that we wanted to build a an outdoor dining facility and that was going to require I think we could we could have up to um up to as many as 25 I think it was or 10% what was it 10% of the seats that were inside and these restrictions and that was to protect the people that were as I saw it was to protect the people that lived around these fa facilities uh I remember talking with one of the residents that this was going to be close to uh it wasn't it wasn't a talk it wasn't a conversation it was somebody yelling and and me scurrying out of there um because they weren't happy with that they they really didn't want to see that they didn't really want to hear that and they felt they understood what what some of the rules were I see this as a the BRC had very few visitors uh and frankly the reason why there are probably very few visitors is I really don't think very many people knew about it and I think you can go out and test that if you want to test it they they don't even know what it is let alone that it was meeting and you can say they don't know what they're doing but I know people that Monday through Thursday are someplace where their kids every night and then on Friday they're cut in the lawn and on Saturday they're out in the boat and on Sunday they're at church and having family things and they rely on us to make decisions sound decisions and for me I wish we had more information on this and I wish we were going slower what you had to do through the BRC I I didn't experience that pain within the meetings until I finally decided to go to the meeting when I said what's happening and what's taken so long and what I'm I represent I represent you and I represent the people uh that live in in Den Eden all of them all 37,000 and and the businesses so I don't feel like they've had enough input on this and and understand it um I'm not against I'm not against moving forward with things um I just want to go slower and I'd like to have these people have more of an input as to what's happening I'm just afraid people don't understand and I haven't run up and down the causeway to say the flood's coming or this is happening and because that's not my job my job is of course to listen but I can only listen to just so many people so it's great that we have this group here but I actually don't see very many citizens here that did not that don't know about this that didn't know about this is there anybody here that's a resident or a citizen that did not know about this tonight there's a whole lot of them they didn't and so I I really really want to want to touch basis with them particularly those that live in the downtown where it is complex is it truly unenforceable for example that you ask people to have a closing time at a certain time within within our zoning and and and we have that that that that those rules um to my understanding we're not in Conflict first of all with a strategic plan but second of all with with our comprehensive plan and third of all with our zoning can somebody tell me that that's not the case I mean people are saying it is UN unenforceable is that unenforceable that you have that you would not be outdoors I'm just asking I'm not saying whether I agree with it or not I'm just asking people are saying it's un enforceable is it do we know that well I can answer that if I may mayor I we feel that it is unenforceable given the you know for example if you say vacated 11 and we have and you open it up to every every Commercial Business say we issue 30 or 40 permits then we would need to be in 30 or 40 different places to make sure that this ordinance is enforced if there are complaints so so as far as Staffing goes as far as um uh equal enforcement if you will of the ordinance itself we feel that it's very problematic is it enforcable or is it not enforcable we think it is not enforcable and but you why is it un enforcable you just said because of equal enforcement Etc uh I'm just going to we had our time for questions I just now it's time for comments let's not do the back and forth please so I would like to go see us go slower so I'm I'll just summarize it it's what I said before everything that I said before um I'm not necessarily against it but I want to see us go slower so I'm not I'm not going to support making this move at this point not not with what I've heard and what what I know and what I know about our residents and I'm I have to I have to support have to support everyone I'm not going against anyone I'm just trying to support everyone thank you thank you commissioner um many of my comments will be roughly the same as they were August 1st uh first and foremost I was there when we approved the original outdoor dining I was there when we approved the original noise ordinance I'm very clear on the intent and very educated on it and I've been on this St for 18 years and I grew up in the city so I think I have a know a lot of institutional knowledge as to how we became who we are and how we are evolving and we are evolving and that's really important the 500 foot with vacate was strictly meant was meant for as we've said many times the public RightWay because we wanted to encourage we had two businesses uh the living room and pensari which is now Pisces that wanted to be wanted to expand and have some outdoor dining in that front sidewalk area and we wanted to encourage that those sidewalk cafes we wanted to encourage that and we created this ordinance and I I will read again from the minutes when we were discussing the ordinance it's the original ordinance so I said so I say I guess my question to you is for instance Kelly's has outdoor dining in the back Greg rice acknowledges that I say okay if they came along with this rule when this rule was enacted would you would they have to kick people pull off their outdoor dining area I was told no this ordinance is only going to address the front or the side and I so she says so that establishment their outar dining is in the rear and I clarify just front or side which is where those rways are correct those are the minutes for when this thing was originally discussed so I I know we we have other people that said they were there and that this isn't the fact but these are the minutes um and I was there too um and I think that's important to say the second thing is right wrong or indifferent we have not enforced a vacate on those outdoor dining areas that are not on public right away we've never enforced if this thing was approved in 2008 early 2009 it has never been enforced because it was never the intent so what we live with today is exactly how it will be tomorrow if this All Passes you're not going to see some dramatic difference and anybody we've had one person it started as one person who has gotten our community and I'm not saying it's all his fault I think us lagging on the time to fix some of these things okay causes a problem too and I I've readily said that we should have fixed this a long time ago but one guy started targeting businesses it started with edes Eddie was the bad guy when you Edie has a a business on the causeway I trust me he knows what's going on so does Frenchie they all know they all know because they've been targeted by this person too blur dun brew and several others and then puts misinformation out into the community that this is that what we're doing is going to magically change everything and it is isn't because we never enforced the vacate because it was never the intent now where we screwed up and where we should have done better was not trying to put 5 lbs in a one PB bag with using an ordinance that applies to um pic rightaway for everything that's where we screwed up and we should have done better but we've never enforced that vacate so tomorrow the sun's going to rise and nothing is going to be any different than it was today what we have done though with this is we've clarified it we've created the two ordinances we should have had and we've strengthened I you know I know it's a clarification of our noise ordinance but we've strengthened it because it's clear and understandable now and our Law Enforcement Officers can understand it whether they've been trained on it or not just reading it on their phone they can understand it and and we're putting requirements now if you expand your space we have a lot of people John with your comments we have a lot of people that expanded their space we all understand Co a lot of things happened they expanded their space I'm not judging it but it was never approved and their occupancy is out of whack they may not have enough bathrooms they may not have enough parking and then you have people that have actually you know and I'm not saying who they are I don't care we want to help them we want to help them but it's interesting when we go to help people in those situations I've heard from other businesses one person in this room that says well I paid all of that and I did everything I was supposed to do why does that guy get to have a break so you have to look at both sides I'm not saying either side is right or wrong I'm saying you have to consider that and so anyway I'm just kind of responding to some of the the things that have been targeted or things that have been said what really bothers me is that one guy started all of this and then enveloped other people into it I won't even get into those people because they're still around and this person has moved out of den Eden unsuccessfully sued our city twice unsuccessfully sued a local business and now he's gone and this you know this is where we're sitting hindsight being 2020 I don't know what we could have done other than moved faster on this but I guarantee you there would have been more lawsuits I I don't know what we could have done I really don't I I've tried to look back how could we have fixed this I can tell you this I don't ever want one person that can do this to an entire community and get people with misinformation now that doesn't mean that if you have an if you I don't ever want a resident like Melissa to be in her situation either I think we have work to do and yes you should be able to reach out to any one of your elected officials at any given time my cell phone's on my Facebook page you can imagine the kind of calls I get um but it's there for a reason um you know the talk about the closing times if you get a license to be Pals county says you can be open at 3:00 and your business model says that that's what works for you you should be able to do that because blur doesn't have the same business model as honu they don't and nobody should be required to follow that whole same thing private property rights are important they're not important to the expense of everyone else that's that's when you start to question whatever that right is but I mean John I know you understand private property rights you tout that a lot yes and so if you have created an out a business that has indoor and outdoor space and the community say you got to shut that down 11:00 and that's you know but your business model says I need the extra hour or two or whatever it is we just took away their right to do business and now you're going to you're taking away the rights of stuff they've built and permitted and Allowed by state and county law you're right it's unenforceable we will get sued if I were any one of these businesses I'd be suing I would I mean we know we can get sued for just about anything and we have been Jennifer Cohen didn't by a lot of things but especially by this one guy I guarantee you the causeway people the Pinehurst people the 580 people they all know this they all know what's going on I think they don't want the drama and we've had a lot of drama and I think we can do better most business centers and we have a business center here we also have it on 580 we also have it on Patricia those businesses on Patricia back up to residential they on 580 same thing they all back up to residential Alt 19 every business area backs up to residential that's the way it got developed if we were starting a new cookie cutter Town Well we'd make sure there wasn't a single home anywhere close to a business and wouldn't that suck cuz you can't leave your house and go walk to the Nature's Food Patch or whatever you want to do I don't think you have to live with the things you've lived with Melissa but I also think and this is not on you because I know you've been there a long time we're not trying to build bars and businesses inside of a neighborhood we're not but they you're going to if you buy a house next to a zoning District that has commercial most people do that because they want to be close to to it and then you have PE you know I agree nobody should be playing cornhole after 11 that's stupid if you're right next you know right by a house and I've said that I I have talked to George and Helen I mean I listen I've talk to them they know it and they they they've been more than willing to stop doing that and I think it that's really what it's all about all of us talking to people I don't I don't ever want to see what this happen again one person who developed into a a core little group that targeted our businesses is terrible it's just terrible and I I I someday I hope to figure out how to make sure that doesn't happen again but it did and our small businesses in this community you don't see a bunch of chains in the basic areas you see them on 580 and all 19 but you don't see them on Patricia or Douglas or downtown these people have invested thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars into their businesses now you know resident might look at that and say oh that's their business and they're making money on it except if you count every single one of them what have they done they've created the vibrant downtown and other areas of our community that has made us who we are they're they're paying taxes just like our residents and guess what our businesses don't get the 3% save our homes cap you know how much tax a business pays I don't know it's like 25% or some god- awful number it's crazy there's no cap and I also think we yes I think what residents have to say is very important but I I I don't like the insinuation I've heard along the way I'll say that well residents are more important that's  sorry but that that's it's not we're all equal because we're all neighbors we're all contributing to who this community is and we are all contributing to the tax base and I'm in this city we're all friends we are all friends I'm sure any one of these businesses can tell you they pretty much know every customer by name especially when the tourists aren't here you know and a lot of them live here and move to D Eden because because of the businesses we have and postco outdoor dining became a lot more important and so that's my Spiel I am sorry that our community had to go through all of this and especially targeted businesses I'm happy we're to this point and I want us to all become friends again I really do because that's who we are we have a village Vibe here we need to protect it roll call vote vice mayor frainy oh sorry I commissioner TOA commissioner Walker I commissioner gal I and mayor bosski I that motion passes 4 to one yay we can clap now [Applause] thank you all for being here thank you for all the participation I know some of you have been on BRC I know some of you have been to a lot of public meetings really appreciate that okay we just have one more thing on our agenda yeah uh the proposed agenda for September 19th we're adding a presentation recognized pipe bands and removing the consultant for design criteria of the parking garage why are we removing that the the agreement is not ready yet it still needs to go through engineering purchasing and to the C to the City attorney the it's just not ready mayor I'm sorry which one is it the parking garage thing okay so can I have a motion to accept those changes and approve that agenda second okay commissioner gal commissioner Walker all in favor signify by saying I I any opposed motion passes unanimously we are adour all [Music]