[Music] this is the July 29th 2024 special meeting of the local planning agency of the city of Denon we will now come to order the local planning agency is an Advisory Board of citizens appointed by the city commission this board is comprised of volunteers who represent the thoughts and concerns of the community the the purpose of tonight's meeting is to make a recommendation to the city commission regarding each item on the agenda anyone in the audience who wishes to give testimony to to any items on the agenda will need to be sworn in by the deputy City Clerk just after the introduction of each item citizens speaking on an agenda item or or during citizen comment will not engage in loud boisterous or disruptive speech or conduct I know that won't happen here right any speaker that has contain that has continued inappropriate or irrelevant comments will be be requested to relinquish the podium by me please be aware that the local planning agency is not a quasi judicial board and therefore has no final decision making power our procedures however are structured in a quasy Judicial manner for the benefit of those who come before it tonight's four format will be as follows I will introduce each item on the agenda and inquire on any export contact after which the deputy city clerk will swear in any wishing to speak on the item our city representative will then present the information thereafter the members of the local planning agency will ask any questions of the city rep representative finally anyone from the public may come forward those from the public wishing to give testimony will need to approach the de State their name and address and then utilize the speaker's lecture in order for their comments to be recorded individual speakers will be limited to three minutes speaking time and we will kindly request that speakers are respectful of the countdown clock I will give you fair warning when your time is about up and then if you continue I will continue to interrupt you one representative of groups consisting of five individuals who are present during the public hearing may speak on behalf of the group for 10 minutes at the chair's discretion to do so individuals must have waved their time to the representative by completing the back of a citizen comment card upon the conclusion of each public hearing the local planning agency will consider the evidence before it and will vote on the agenda item The Voice vote is a rendition of the order of the board and there will be no written decision by the board I missed something uh please silence your phones thank you all right public input at this time we welcome the opportunity for the public to address any item that is not on the agenda is there any such so we're all here for just two things all right so we move on to business ordinance 24 22 of the city of denan amending section 17- 41.1 unlawful no unlawful noise of the city of denen Land Development code to provide for interpretive Clarity to to Amplified sound and to clarify Amplified sound may be heard across the property line on New Year's Eve and may never exceed a weighted 65 deel measured at the property line has anyone on this board had any experte contacts regarding this item um um Kathy Kathy Carlson called me and I told her that I could not speak uh anything substantive on this issue because I sat on the LPA and therefore and I would also have to her name there you go sorry it looked green to me Kathy Carlson called me and I told her that I could not speak on anything think substantive on the issue coming before me because we operated under quasi judicial rules and she said okay that's it thank you Deputy clerk please wear in any wishing to speak on items 2A ordinance 24-22 any who would like to speak if you could kindly stand and raise your right hand do you swear the testimony you are about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you Michelle staff presentation yes good evening Dr Broom Mr Vice chair members of the board I'm Jennifer Bramley city manager city of denen it's somewhat unusual for me to be doing a staff presentation of the staff table it's been about 11 years so if I'm a little bit Rusty then forgive me please but I will be presenting the uh the clarification to the noise ordinance uh before you this evening so there are two items as Dr Broom had mentioned before you the outdoor Hospitality uh ordinance and Sidewalk Cafe as well as the noise ordinance they are two very separate ordinances um before the the um before the board today the first item unlawful noise uh um it's before the local planning agency this evening is an ordinance amending 17411 of the code of ordinances pertaining to unlawful noise the purpose of this amendment is to clarify language in the ordinance that has at times caused confusion and also to include a provision regarding extended hours on New Years that was previously approved by resolution in 2013 the unlawful noise ordinance was adopted in 2008 after a great deal of discussion by the community and I think that some members of the community that participated in that discussion are here this evening as well in order to gender input from the community in 2007 the city commission convened the live work play and sleep task force the task force was assisted by an acoustical uh consultant minutes show that there was lengthy discussion surrounding aweighted versus SE weighted measurements and permissible decel levels as well that would be considered unlawful noise section 10741 do-41 do1 PR C state that unlawful noise is the production of sound including sounds from any amplifier phonograph and if if somebody in the room doesn't know what that is we'll have to give you a picture high-fi stereo tape player compact disc or digital sound system or other type of sound broadcasting or sound amplification device whether from moving Vehicles vessels or stationary locations that exceeds an aweighted Des ible threshold of 65 DBS measured at the property line of the complaintant that's a very important point or which otherwise creates a nuisance such items include but not limited to loudspeakers boom boxes and car radios so this section subsection C establish that unlawful noise in the city of deden is any sound which exceeds 65 DB at the property line of the complainant and that would apply 7 days a week 24 hours a day section 107-11 states that unlawful sound is Amplified sound whether music or any other form of sound that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day the week this violation includes sound generated inside a structure or outside a structure sound which may be heard because of the opening of doors as persons enter or leave the structure that momentarily exceeds an aeed deciel threshold of 65 DBS DCB measured at the property line of the property from which the sound is generated is not a violation of this standard this section of the unlawful noise ordinance has caused confusion since the adoption of the ordinance and I would dare say even before the ordinance was adopted taking literally this section of the code requires essentially silence Ambient sound mind you is measured at 45 to 50 DB Ambient sound is what you would hear just sitting out in your backyard also given the way that the sound Flows In Waves if there's no sound generated from the inside or the outside of the structure why would the door swing matter there was a series of clarifications as I said from City officials just prior to adoption of the ordinance and then thereafter the ordinance was adopted and I cited those clarifications in my memorandum dated February 12th 2024 to Captain Melvin Jackson and Captain Jackson is our North District commander and the reason why I sent that clarification out was because again there was confusion in the community about exactly where you would uh take your decibel reading in addition there was confusion amongst the deputies who are enforcing the ordinance and that is a a very serious issue now before I into the clarifications it's important to note that what we are doing today and what the city commission will do should to adopt the proposed ordinance is resolve this confusion once and for all and establish clearly how to enforce this o ordinance enforcement is codified is this unusual yes it is but you can see from all those sitting behind me that the noise ordinance is a very important ordinance in the city of denan and so clarification of the ordinance is also very important on May 7th of 2008 that was before the ordinance was adopted Sergeant C Laughlin of the penel County Sheriff's Office community policing unit made the following recommendations regarding the draft ordinance to city manager Rob desperto he said one use the a-rated decel rating system two set the Threshold at at 65 DB for live outside Amplified music three enforcement of this decimal level will be at the point of receiver receivership by the complainant four the business owners will be required to monitor decibel levels and five no outside live Amplified music after 11: p.m. 7 days a week on July 17th of 2008 Harry gross assistant city manager described and he's also the project manager on the noise ordinance effort I believe described the parameters of the noise ordinance in a memorandum to the city manager as follows introduces an AE to decel threshold standard to determine whether amplifi sound is unlawful sets the a weighted decel level at 65 DB establishes the point of measurement at the property line of the complainant and finally establishes that no Amplified music be played Outdoors after 11: after 11: p.m. 7 Days of the Week clar clarifications similar to those already described above occurred in January and this is after the ordinance was adopted on January 5th of 2009 Greg rice who was a director of Community Development at that time wrote to City Attorney John hubard as an example the business has Amplified music within the structure the time is 11:30 p.m. a person places the deciel reader at the property line of the business and measures the DB the result in measurement is 50 DB at this point no violation of the ordinance has occurred a customer leaves the business by opening a door and exiting the building at the moment the doors open the DB level increases to 68 DB the door closes and the decel reading returns to 50 DB no violation of the ordinance has occurred January 15th 2009 he wrote I did ask the City attorney for clarification he said that the intent of the ordinance was essentially that the 65 DB standard would be maintained it just moves to the property line of the source of the music after 11:00 p.m. so the intent is is actually very clear when you look at the public record I did Reach Out directly to Harry gross uh the city's project manager at the time assistant city manager uh to ensure that I was understanding the minutes of the meeting and understanding the emails and the statements regarding the enforcement of the code and where the deciel level reading would be taken and at what time Mr gross confirmed the city's position in 2007 and 2008 in addition after I had written the CL clarification before I published it I asked him to read it and I asked him to ensure that every all the information within that memo was correct and he stated that it was I did check with uh Terence Fahy and some of you may know I think a lot a lot of folks in the audience know Terence fah he he was our community policing officer he started in 2015 2014 2015 he uh he actually taught some of the incoming deputies uh application of the noise ordinance Deputy fell he train new deputies in the use of the desal readers and the implementation of the unlawful noise ordinance he confirmed the above that awful noise if anything over 65 DB Le measured from the property line of the complainant before 11:00 p.m. and anything over 65 DB measured from the property line of the source of the noise after 11:00 p.m. oh boy that's small so that is uh attached to the agenda item too as well so um we have legislative draft we call legislative draft it's also strike through so I want to show you uh exactly what's before the local planning agency today I already read you sections H uh excuse me C and H as they they currently exist in the code so what staff is proposing is that we amend the ordinance uh to convey Amplified sound generated outside of a structure whether music or any other form of sound that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sound is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week and that would be unlawful noise so any any Amplified sound outside and that's speakers it's TV speakers it's anything that that bolse the sound uh uh of the noise if you will would have to be turned off and discontinued outside of the structure after 11:00 p.m. except on December 31st from 11:00 to 12:30 a.m. on January 1st we're recommending that we take out this violation includes sound generated inside a structure or outside a structure and that's the verbiage that really led to the confusion the intent originally was Amplified Sound Outside be discontinued and that's not how the ordinance read when it was adopted um and then we're adding section subsection I Amplified sound generated inside of a structure exceeding a weighted 65 DB that may be heard outside of the property line from which the Amplified sign is generated after 11:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m. any day of the week except December 31st from 11:00 until 2 12:30 a.m. on Jan January 1st and so Essence in essence what we're doing now is stipulating specifically that at 11 o'clock or after your decibal reading is coming from the property line of the source of the noise and that it cannot exceed 65 DB in uh regards to the reference to to New Year's in 2012 um the city commission adopted resolution uh 1267 which extended the deadline for Amplified sound to 12:30 a.m. uh which actually seems fair given its new years's um that said it was a resolution and in order to be enforced it has to be codified in the code of ordinances so uh we're recommending that we include that in the code as well so this is a clear Common Sense concise approach which will resolve the confusion regarding this very important ordinance before I close there a few more points I'd like to make if I may our noise ordinance is a restrictive noise ordinance and it was designed that way the noise level of 65 DB is equivalent to a conversation between two people standing 3 ft away it should be noted that that if the deciel measure is not more than 65 DB at the proper line of the source of the noise after 11:00 p.m. then it is less at the property line any place else and probably the complaintant if they're the ones that called it in noise amplification generated outside of a structure continues to be prohibited after 11:00 uh p.m. and it it always has been since the ordinance was adopted staff recommendation does not change this ordinance and will not change how it is enforced those items that were discussed were uh the most in 2007 in 2008 remain very much the same the rating of the measurement is an awaited and the noise level is 65 DB and again that has not changed staff is requesting that the local planning agency forward a favorable recommendation regarding the proposed changes to the city commission for first reading at their commission meeting on August 1st of 2024 are there any questions a agency members Jennifer I've got a question um given the past confusion around uh enforcement what steps are being taken so that residents of den can feel confident that the uh enforcement is taking place consistently and not just with regards to Amplified music but other noise in general such as rockus behavior and whatnot so um and this is a direct result of the business resident City task force that was convened um early on uh when after that task force was was convened there was a request to add an additional code enforcement officer and that was prohibited uh given our budget to add additional staff member to that particular Division I did however work with the Sheriff's Office to put on a uh a dedicated CPO Wednesday through Saturday uh in the downtown and to to essentially uh uh monitor noise sound uh and rockus behavior within the downtown also I think it needs to be very clear that that deputies can proactively inforce this ordinance after an investigation if they find that the decel level exceeds 65 then they can issue a citation so they are on the the I've been very clear with with Captain Jackson during the course of the weekend uh they are to be looking for noise violations if you will uh monitoring downtown and other areas of the city and investigating um issues with noise and sound throughout the city do all officers carry the sound monitor yes um along those same lines with the actual equipment that's going to be used um is that um I guess shared whether it's the um make and model those kind of things and also the calibration of such um you can you can download decel apps on your phone right so um to keep everybody on the same page what has been done and um and same thing along with calibrations and how often so so every shift actually they calibrate um the decimeters is that what you call them uh the mechanism they they actually calibrate at the start of the shift uh and it's a a 2-minute calibration um and um they use a still exactly the same uh deciel reader throughout the organization so they're getting the same equipment and they're they're calibrating equipment every single shift um can you just re uh can you just reiterate um the clarifications I think it's I think New Year's Eve yes correct and then it's from where the deciple is uh rendered from the complainant before 11 and at at the source after 11 is that correct correct um and also um the Amplified Amplified noise is that correct Amplified noise noise can you please reiterate amp Amplified noise means generated music is that correct so let me read you the definition so amp sound amplification refers to the process of increasing the amplitude or loudness of an audio signal this can be done through the use of electronics such as amplifiers speakers or sound systems it can also be done without electric electricity through acoustical means such as using a hollow body or tuned pipe to amplify sounds I guess that's where the phonograph comes in right the goal of Sound amp amplification is to make the sound louder and more easily heard by the intended a audience and and your clarification was Amplified sound is under this one is not allowed after 11: outside the structure after 11:00 p.m outside the structure correct thank Jennifer you mentioned the cpos are going to be working Wednesday through Saturday evening yes um I know particularly uh weekends and during season people are out pretty late how late will that those officers be working so all the officers will be working 24/7 throughout the city their details on their cpos the CPO right now is working from 1: to 11: so the officers then uh once the CPO leaves the officers they're notified that that the CPO has left and that um they'll pull in the patrol closer to downtown I did talk to Captain Jackson about that in particular I I do think during the uh higher season that we need the CPO here later and we're working on that so sound that is not Amplified that is over 65 DB that's okay so no at at at the property line the sound needs to be at 65 DB period yes Amplified or unamplified yes okay but I think you said Amplified music is not allowed outside after 11 o' correct okay did that help or hinder well just to be clear that in any sound that exceeds 65 DB is not okay well it can be measured at the boundary yes correct yes okay that it uh Michelle Shall We Begin the introduction to public comments yes sir we did received several public comments those were received via e comment Andor email those have been distributed and will also be made part of the record so then thank you yes sir if you come up Please be aware of the time limits many people want to speak therefore give your neighbors their time as well please who would like to speak I'm going to go ahead and start to read the public comments when I read your name if you could kindly come state your name and address and please confirm that you have been sworn in so we'll start on the comments we have for this item 2A Michael Lyn Bryant [Applause] please thank you I hope everybody gets an Applause like that um good evening everybody um I've heard a lot of opinions sir oh I have been sworn in you've been sworn in in your name and address sorry my name is Michael Lyn Bryant I'm at 518 belri street thank you you're welcome um good evening I've heard a lot of opinions recently about the Sound Ordinance many are either based on personal preference or a lack of facts and data nobody is asking for the ability to have live or Amplified Music and Sound past 11: p.m. Outdoors we are simply asking for clarity that allows us to maintain the quality of life and businesses that have all come to love and expect in dun Eden over the last three plus decades when the ordinance was first published my mom and father were both on the task force and asked and received a written clarification that was referred to by the city manager I have copies of that here um the city man uh assistant city manager Harry gross said that the intent of the ordinance was that the 65 deel standard would be maintained it just moves to the property line of the source of Music at 11:00 p.m. as she said for reference 65 DBS as the equivalent to a normal conversation between two people at 3 ft away the Sound Ordinance was correctly enforced for 10 years with no issues in 2018 and again in 2023 a Duneden citizen advised Sheriff's Department incorrectly which led to a wrongful enforcement and harassment of our particular business Duneden Brewery on 937 Douglas Avenue um which also extended to harassment of our employees the issue was brought to the attention of the city manager who after much thorough investigation came to the conclusion that a second CL a second clarification may help those reading the ordinance so that this is interpreted and followed correctly in the future we have hosted over 3,000 concerts since 2001 most having ended well past midnight with no issue except for the mistaken enforcement that I've referred to we hope to continue our Legacy as an independent family-owned second generation dun Eden business that helped put the city on the map I I appreciate the opportunity to speak on these matters thank you very much thank you I appreciate you we now have John Deer if you could please state your name and address and my name is John dider 1969 Dunlow Circle have you been sworn in yes I have been sworn in um first and foremost I'd like to thank Jennifer Bramley for her comprehensive research regarding the Sound Ordinance with all its details that are extremely necessary I'm a local musician here in dun Eden and decb and their readings mean a lot to me um I think that from my personal experience it's very important that this scientific standard is set because otherwise we're just going by complete ambiguity and uh despite this verbiage being in The Sound Ordinance I do believe that it needs to be properly communicated to the penelas county sheriff's office because I at one point as an employee of Duneden Brewery have been told that it read otherwise despite the fact that it stated the current verbage that it is so I do think that it's very important that penel County Sheriff's Office is aware of how this reads entirely uh and thus that clarification is very necessary duy to Echo what you had asked and I'm a little confused by this if 65 DB is a conversation between two people H happening 3T away are I I was under the impression that the Sound Ordinance was specifically for Amplified sound if it is beyond that uh and it could just be casual conversation does that mean that penel County Sheriff's Office is taking decible readings at the property line of a business after 11:00 p.m. for the patrons who are hanging out outside if for whatever reason that exceeds 65 DB I I I mean I'm not going to ask you to answer my question during my time but uh that's something definitely to consider duy in my experience using decel readers I've stood at the property line with an aweighted decel reader and have noted that cars driving by a palm tree blowing in the breeze absolutely makes that sound meter Spike and if that wind blowing through the palm tree is consistent I do believe that the sheriffs who are enforcing this need to be aware of that and know specifically the origin from where that sound that they are attempting to read is coming from otherwise they are wrongly uh citing businesses and individuals thank you so much for allowing me to speak thank Didier pardon me sorry chair Josh [Applause] fman Josh if you could please state your name and address for the record and kindly confirm that you've been sworn in yep my name is Josh Felman I actually live in Tarpon Springs but 2015 Bayshore Boulevard is where I operate my business and you been morning yes I heard some of it outside yes um the only point that I have to make is the city of dun Eden really has something nice going on here I would really hate to see stuff like this break it up you have multiple other cities around you trying to do what you guys enjoy here or what most people will say Enjoy here is the reason I brought my business here I would hope you understand that at and realize that these ordinances that that you're dealing with today really really have a way to shape what this city does so thank you excuse me what is your business again truck and lad brewing company thank [Applause] you Kevin Connell give you one more chance Kevin Connell is that correct yes sir I'll put Kevin Connell aside Joanne Pascal I'm waiting I I can I can dismiss this one's tricky is this gwy Portland try it again I'm going to try the address uh 1860 braymore okay okay Robert Ray if you could kindly state your name address and please confirm you've been sworn in Robert Ray 24 Scotland Street dun Eden um you I have been swor thank you so much I live at 214 Scotland Street I've lived there for uh 24 years and it's uh 19 built in 1926 the first uh I think the first dentist in d uh lived there uh it's one house off of Edgewater and uh on the west side it's 7 ft from that property and in the mid 2000s uh an apartment building was torn down and they put in a parking lot behind my house which is about 12 feet from my house and uh on the nursing home side which used to be a nursing home and that's now been um I understand has been purchased and is currently not occupied which I'm thinking something's going to happen there um but my house is about 12 ft from that so I'm you know concerned about what can happen in the future and of course I'm imagining that this ordinance would apply to Future projects as well um so I would not be in favor of anything other than maintaining uh a quieter neighborhood I've heard uh you know people drive by and they park in the parking lot behind my house they play no loud music you know off their radios off their out of their cars trucks late at night once in a while um and of course being in that neighborhood people are walking by at all hours so there's you know I just don't want that type of situation to get worse and there are other properties on my same side of the street that I think have the same some of the same issues so that's my comments thank you Mr R Jason Sebert cybert sorry for my mispronunciation I have not been sworn in oh wonderful if you could please raise your right hand do you swear the testimony you are about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you my name is Jason cyber I live at 1756 Ranchwood Drive South in beautiful Denine Florida I've been a business owner down here for about 14 years and I've been coming to downtown to enjoy this vibrant downtown for over 20 years and uh I've been blessed to be a homeowner now for three years it was hard to do cuz went ENT R preneur when I started a lot of people knew me at Rosies as a bartender and I bought flanigans as a Ros as a bartender at Rosies um I've been a business owner down here for 14 years because we had a a yoga studio as well so now I've owned three businesses in downtown um I also lived uh a few houses behind uh Michael Bryant's business for seven years and some of that not as a business owner but as a resident and uh sometimes I could hear things coming out of that business and I complained zero times because I moved into a culture and a beautiful place that made vibrant noise and I knew that I moved to that area I understand that people on the outside and including the gentleman that just spoke has been here for a long time and it hasn't been the case for as long as that but um a lot of things grow and we've been growing we've been nurturing the downtown culture for a long time and now we're asking everybody to be quiet even though we've grown and nurtured this downtown culture and uh it's my opinion that though we have a an ordin that works that we should not stifle growth and we should not stifle people from able to to make noise not Amplified noise I understand Amplified noise but I don't think that we can enforce people congregating and speaking I don't know how as a business owner owning two bars downtown I can tell my patrons hey hey you got to be quiet because I don't have the authority to do that so that's my opinion and uh I also want to say quickly that I don't think that this should divide us so much I love everybody on both sides of this issue and I hope that we can can continue to love our neighbors on both sides thank you John shine can you state your name and address and confirm you were sworn in please my name is John shine my address is 217 aine Street and uh I'm a candidate for mayor from a from a transparency point of view and I'm also the president of the dunen downtown neighborhood association and were you sworn in yes ma'am I thank so much thank you I guess I have two concerns the first is not the method of enforcement but the policies and processes of enforcement are we asking the police to hide in the bushes and measure sound at 11 o' are we going to distribute deciel meters throughout the city and then respond to that to that noise whatever that noise is where does it where is that enforcement what is it that catalyzes an enforcement is it any noise does it do you do a Stakeout of the police outside of specific place and do you do stake out and what about those who use enforcement as a weapon against a business what if somebody has a grudge against a business how does that business protect itself we just said 65 DB is a conversation between two people 3 feet away it doesn't take very much to violate that how are we going to enforce that not the deci meter but the method by which does someone get a warning does it how long do we measure it do we sit out there for half an hour until the decimal meter pops up because somebody walks out the door and coughs how is this really done because I didn't hear that from from city manager Bramley I didn't hear what catalyzes an investigation what catalyzes a police officer coming out right do they have to have probable cause or can they just sit there and wait the second issue I have is the punishment should to should meet the crime where what is the process by which Justice is served does it go to a a judge does a judge decide does it do a go to a a a a some kind of Quasi judicial situation where peers are actually deciding who is it that decides and how often do they decide is someone's business at stake and their livelihood at stake because they violated the noise ordinance how many times does that take how many times in a year how many times in a in a decade I don't understand how we can enforce laws if we don't understand those basic premise and that ordinance doesn't communicate that at least it doesn't to me perhaps there's other laws behind it that communicates that but I don't want this to be we have a beautiful down and am I up it's I got three minutes I'm good I said what I needed to say thank you Christine varcas thank you Bill [Applause] welon Bill Welden 656 Broadway I have been sworn in Resident at that same address for 26 years now I'm also the property manager there um what hasn't been said today is that all sound is not created equal so after 11:00 p.m. is my main concern with base sounds and Jennifer mentioned the aweighted scale the problem is an aeed scale is a general noise scale it does not capture the base sounds a c-weighted scale would capture those base sounds and the problem with after 11 is yes there's no live music outside but if you uh go to some of these places they're playing you know loud based music after 11: p.m. it emanates outside of the structure that's why the noise ordinance was written that way in 2008 to capture sound emanating from inside or outside a structure or building right to protect the residents of the ever expanding Entertainment District right we're a neighborhood that's existed the home across the street next to one of the bars has been there since 1905 right we deserve protection we didn't just get here right the airport moved next to us we didn't move next to the airport so I just wanted to say when people talk about the science all noise is not created equal if you wanted as a resolution to put a seaweed scale for noise after 11: p.m. that could be a compromise it might work thank you Jason Williams Jason Williams uh 1986 braymore Drive uh have you been sworn in yes absolutely uh first I'd like to thank you guys because it's a big subject you guys being on this this ccil it's it's tough and you guys you're the ones feeling the brunt of it and I can appreciate that especially that your volunteers which is even bigger so I appreciate you guys doing that from a volunteers perspective I you you guys know I'm big on volunteering um this issue is for me it's a big one because the city and how the city is run and how the city is the spirit behind it is what got me through covid so I would come down here all the time and I would go to all the breweries and go to the businesses and it's what got me through this so any any change in the ordinance that would affect the spirit of this town should not even come close to being put into action and that's basically all I have to [Applause] say Joseph kokolakis good evening everybody uh Joe kikas 134 drive and yes I've been sworn in um I've been a resident of denen since 1986 so it is about 38 years and um you know I guess against what's commonly been referred to I'm not a developer I've been a resident I've raised my family here I'm a general contractor who's invested in denen for the sole purpose of creating an environment you know that would elicit the kind of response we have today of people with different opinions possibly but that come together share them Express them respectfully and then move on um I'm going to try not to bleed into the outdoor dining ordinance and noise ordinance uh but they are intimately related obviously the noise ordinance itself and I think I heard the city managers say that it could be interpreted as originally written that dead quiet is expected after 11:00 p.m. or midnight on Saturdays Fridays and Saturdays obviously that's not realistic um I think it's embarrassing that we're standing here we have to draft an ordinance that states that on New Year's Eve restaurants and bars get a pass to be open or at least create noise after midnight you know it's absurd because everyone knows that that should be a common understanding out of respect for the businesses I have 69 residents that rent from me in downtown denen 69 families that I feel I'm responsible for I have 40 businesses that rent from me in downtown Den 11 of them have outdoor dining so I think I'm in sort of a unique position to offer a perspective where both sides need to figure this out I am grateful to the city manager for putting together her analysis I may not agree entirely with it but I do agree that we need something because this doesn't make sense to expect quiet after midnight you want people to be outside all my 69 residents if you survey them move downtown just for the action that we're talking about here today they like the music they like the outdoor restaurants they want to sit outside and congregate with their friends so from my end of it I think listening today the issues are enforcement because I do believe that if the deputy is in charge of the enforcement after 11: then from what I understand that is only in response to a complaint that complaint is public record and there have been cases where they're vilified on social media for making a complaint again sometimes like I said those complaints are without Merit because the deputies or the enforcement aren't fully aware of how to monitor the noise or defining whether it is Amplified sound or just rockus behavior um so I think the City by clarifying the ordinance it would be easier to enforce and by having City personnel on staff rather than a deputy sheriff it makes it much more like you know someone's around just giving notice um and that's you know that's kind of it I I Echo everybody's comments that I think we should all just work through this thank you thank you very much David [Music] [Applause] [Applause] Robinson hello folks my name is David Robinson I live at 3 51 Orangewood drive here in dun Eden I was sworn in as a safety officer in the fifth grade let's swear you it please raise your right hand okay do you swear the testimony you are about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes ma'am thank you hi city manager can you tell me what the noise ordinance standard for the majority of pelis county is you're giving public comment to the board right now believe I'm I'm I'm just going to guess but I believe it's at approximately 73 okay and you guys are talking about 65 so I wish that we would amend this further and bring it up to the county standard [Applause] um I have lived here for 20 years and I spend all my money downtown I usually spend it between the hours of 8: and 3:00 a.m. uh I get out of work at 8: so sometimes I like to uh relax and go out a little bit later so I miss all the happy hours with my friends I miss dinners with my friends but I get to see all my friends that are getting off of work late the people that serve us the people that bartend for us the people that manage for us the people that cook in the kitchens here locally and they are people just like everybody that wants to go to bed at 11: thank you uh they we like to sit outside and have a drink and talk and if we're going to get harassed or the business is going to get harassed that is simply not fair so I ask you guys to get this corrected let's make it so that there's clarification on the issue again city manager I'd like you to look into the standard for the count because I think it should actually be there and I'll give you one example one of my friends leaves it's 12:30 I'm at the house of beer and I yell I love you Larry I I just broke the Ordinance do you see what I'm saying or I see Tina coming and I'm T Tina we're over here come join us these things are going to happen and they shouldn't cause an issue and they shouldn't cause a fine and they shouldn't cause anybody to get harassed locally this place is for all of us and I ask that you do keep dun Eden delightful but maybe at 73 75 DB okay all right thank you for your time I really appreciate it Jade cyber [Applause] hi I am Jade cyber I live at 435 Highland court and I have not been sworn [Applause] in do you swear the testimony you are about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you I've lived in denan almost my entire life I currently live in the center of our downtown core where I've been for the past 10 plus years I can see the dudy and Brey from my front porch and my daughter was less than a year old when we moved into that location so you guys know like that common saying never wake a sleeping baby well with even with her being an inant we never had any issues regarding noise or disturbances in the location that we live and um I just believe that deden has grown into something very special I believe that it's what we've promoted it's what we've advertised it's how we've brought these tourists here and we shouldn't sacrifice what we've all the work that we've done to get to where we are now over some silly noise issues when we're already below the County ordinance at the 65 DB um and people should be allowed outside after 11:00 p.m. I'm concerned about the people who are employed by the local establishments here especially in the hospitality industry because of how restricting the outdoor ordinance is with having nobody on patios after 11: p.m. it's going to reduce the potential volume of the establishments and thereby as far as custom customer volume and thereby going to reduce the income that these employees are able to make um you know less people less opportunity to make money less Shi less shifts available for these Hospitality workers because don't need as many people on staff um and yeah we just we love Donan we want to keep it going keep it the nice vibrant fun atmosphere that it has been for so long thank you guys thank you Shannon Smith [Applause] shanon Smith 1268 Bay Shore Boulevard done Eden and I have been sworn thank you uh before I get into a couple of the other elements I just want to get three uh key points across so my time doesn't run out I just think that eliminating the quieter hours which were actually intended at the time this ordinance would pass sort of risk too much we're talking about making an ordinance that covers the entirety of our city not just the downtown core and so I Limited quieter hours could risk D destroying the balance that we've enjoyed over this period of time secondly I do believe sometimes things should be quieter not all the time but sometimes it should be quieter and just to be clear there's been a lot of discussion about what the overall noise ordinance is at 65 DB we will be higher than the county average for the evening hours the County ordinance is 55 it's it's 55 after 11 please allow the gentleman to give his comments yeah yeah you can check for yourself it's 55 DB after 11 in the county ordinances so in terms of of the timing quieter hours are uh uh good for human health and safety and in the end uh I don't want to see us sort of destroy the balance we've had as a community at the same time uh I would say that um that need deser voiders do deserve some protection involved in in enacting these ordinances not everybody lives a long way away in certain instances this property line that we keep talking about is one and the same there is no change in the point of measurement between 11:00 or 10:59 and 11:00 because it's a shared property boundary so dunan residents do need to be protected in some respects along the way in terms of original intent um I would just point out that uh there are many that have thought about original intent and it starts back with one of the people that uh manager Bramley uh mentioned Terren fah and so I'm going to share some materials for you for your record where Terrence fahe had in writing where he was and where the sheriff's general council's office was back in 2018 as well as his frustration at the city's failure to enforce the ordinance as he had researched it to be in 2018 the other element that I would share for your record today is that this continued all the way up through and including the recent uh work that was done by the current North District Captain where he stated as recently as this September it is a recommendation of our general council's office that we interpret regarding the city's noise ordinance that the city's noise ordinance be expressed literally in any Amplified noise after 11 is improper and so we're here today to talk about what we want it to be in the future but the question is what are we doing we are expanding the noise ordinance by this enactment to go to 65 DB again I would ask for one clarification city manager at one point said all noise but what's on the board in front of us says Amplified noise only is what is measured after 11:00 and so I think if I was in your shoes I'd want to know that at the same time thank you for the time thank you Mr [Applause] Smith Deb Williams hi my name is Deb Williams I live at 1656 San Mato drive and yes I have been sworn in um I just want to say that I've lived in this beautiful city for three years and I've lived in pelis county for 10 years I came from Austin Texas where it was 75 DB from the hospitality industry where they built condos next to bars and restaurants that were existing and came in and got mad about people sitting on porches having conversations nothing to do with Amplified music and I feel that there is a lot still where it is not made clear about conversation versus Amplified music I can understand the Amplified music although I do think it should be midnight on the weekends but people having a conversation four people sitting around a table drinking having drinks not screaming not yelling not listening to music I sat there with many an officer and their deciel meters I had another officer come in with another deciel meter and they would all say different things people would say different things and it's a way to me of how are you literally going to enforce this I moved to Don Eden because this is a delightful place I came here for the culture I came here to be able to go sit out on a patio and have cocktails with friends or food or bring my guests who come to visit me in the beautiful state of Florida and our beautiful community of dun Eden and our snowbirds that come down here and our tourists that come here they want to go out and have a nice evening and I think they should all be able to do that and I think that we need to reconsider the 65 DB as well as clarify whether my voice right now I'm from Philadelphia originally I have a loud speaking voice I'm going to be 65 DB so we need to put that into consideration as we take forth on this thank you chair that is all of the comment cards I have received for item 2A thank you very much you we could now open it up to anyone who did not present a a public comment card is there anyone else that one wants to speak hearing none agency members do you have further questions um Jennifer I have two questions for you one uh in rela to John shine's question about how it's enforced uh and how frequently things would happen I believe that's in code 34 nuisance activity if that's correct in terms of the frequency before something it is it is just terms of the enforcement of the noise ordinance and really any ordinance of the city of denen um just a couple clarifications um what catalyzes that enforcement if I may I wrote down uh some of his questions so as you know we don't permit uh or the state does not permit Anonymous complaints so what catalyzes that enforcement what initiates the enforcement is either one somebody calls in and says there's a noise violation or I believe there's a noise violation or two the the uh the uh Deputy hears it and investigates finds that there is a violation and issues first of all a warning and then a uh a citation to the manager of of the business not the owner but the manager on duty of the business so it's really a two-fold um approach to enforcement of the or how it's been enforced uh in the past I think that the anonymous complaint I think was 2021 that sounds right yeah that that that occurred and so um we do have as I said we've had multiple I've had multiple conversations with the sheriff's office in terms of enforcement how and where um and and uh as I said we have a we have hired the CPO additional CPO we had to pay the shift differential for the CPO um to be around downtown like as I said previously during the busy times we'll probably um want to extend those hours and he will be proactively um um working on the noise ordinance itself and rockus behavior and so um the enforcement is really it it it is in place now chapter 34 then is The Chronic nuisance and that states that that um I think it's three violations within one month and you you invoke The Chronic nuisance process as well so so there is a path to enforcement of of the noise ordinance um the deputy himself and as a part of the process would would engage the uh the manager of the business or you know as as uh Mr Smith has said this is Citywide and Mr kokakis or the home uh knock on the door we've had a had a complaint can you keep it down in my conversations with uh with Captain Jackson it is discretionary he allows his deputies discretion I'll turn it down we're done and and we leave if he does issue a notice of or of a citation it's a $262 uh uh citation and it will go to if it's challenged it will go to Circuit Court so the method to challenge that is is through Circuit Court um there is a provision in the noise ordinance that actually allows the city to to initiate an additional uh fine if you will $500 uh if there is a violation of the noise ordinance itself and so there are various paths to enforcement of the ordinance um I don't know Mr chair if you want me to address some of the questions I know you're in the question and comment okay I've got a second question in response to uh Shannon Smith's comment um it does talk about Amplified sound under H generate outside the structure but it also talks about whether music or any other form of sound yes so if our if our self- admitted Philadelphia voice here is really loud and the Eagles just win the Super Bowl again her and George will be out late at night celebrating if they're out celebrating loudly above 65 that could be a citation so if I may and just to to cuz we need to to Really discuss that any other form of sound is the any other form of sound that that I am applying here staff is applying in terms of the 65 DB we recently we've had uh a couple of complaints in regards to rockus behavior before that I don't I I would have to look at the records but I don't recall complaints regarding rockus behavior it really is regarding Amplified sound um and to that end uh when when this gentleman was saying hi to his friend Larry or um you know greeting your your friends in downtown I think it's really important to note that the the deputies take their sound rating over a two-minute period they're not just shooting the sound waiting for the 65 DB and then saying you have a violation because a truck can go by and it will go above 65 DB you can greet your friend and that will go above 65 DB but they're reading the kind of the constant sound the constant noise of of you know the level of sound and that is what the citation would be issued against and not uh this gentleman saying hello to his friend Larry so um you know I think that we need to make that very clear as far as you know there's been a lot of of comments that I just want to I just want to you know greet my friends and I want to laugh and I want to do those types of things the noise ordinance that would not be a violation of the noise ordinance I like people laugh I like it when they laugh yeah don't you think that should be C are there other clarifications you would like to offer yes absolutely so we did talk about 65 DB and whether that's Amplified or not so and the 65 decb whether it's Amplified or not again that's how it's been enforced um and I just want to go down my list right here if I may uh policies for enforcement I I address that um again the the first Speaker who got up said well what if there's a spike in the reading and that since since they they kind of smooth it over a two-minute period or longer then then that would not be a violation of the noise ordinance um we talked about what what catalyzes an investigation um punishment should meet the crime and and the citation of two 20 $62 um and you can be issued more than one citation um and then chapter 34 which is The Chronic nuisance is uh you know the the penalty fitting the crime if you will if you are a chronic nuisance then you have to submit an action plan you have to have to mitigate and have to address that that issue uh enforcement after 11:00 one second oh the noise standard for pelis County I I don't know what the noise standard for pelis county is I you know I can't I can't answer that um and I think that's that's the followup I didn't see anything else thank you hear anything else um uh Jennifer at at any time did you all I mean this has been going on a lot of years yes and I'm just curious because I've heard this a lot of years did you all sort of look at aweighted versus c-rated scale yeah I'm sorry that was here um so so the AWA versus c-rated scale was heavily discussed during the course of 2007 and 2008 and that task force and the city commission seated at the time and the recommendation of the LPA they went with the a uh weighted scale so an a weighted scale is a form of frequency weighting and the most commonly used of a family of Curves I noise uh waves as defined in an international standard code so it's the most common measurement um the a weighting of uh sound waves a weighting is applied to instrument measured sound levels and an effort to account for the relative loudness perceived by the human ear so it's really what the human ear hears um SE waiting is the next most common type of frequency waiting um and it's generally a flat rating so uh it's less severe on low low frequencies so so Mr Weldon is correct it's less severe on low frequencies um um and so that said I mean that that is a that is a fact that Mr won has brought up repeatedly through the the BRC um but it was heavily uh debated at the time that the ordinance was adopted and also this is a clarification of the ordinance and not an amendment or changing the ordinance the the basic uh if you will the most solvent parts of the ordinance solvent is not the right word but the most important parts of the ordinance that were adopted in 2008 so you did really look into the a andc I looked into it um uh commissioner I mean Mrs Kines whatever I looked into it um I looked into it when it was adopted in 2008 but not as an application in this this round of amendment um what you can't hear me great um I just want to totally clarify this because you and I have been sort of dancing around this so no Amplified Amplified to me is you know some a DJ outside a band you know is not allowed after 11: with your clarification outside outside right but after 11 you could still take and here this is what I I need to know after 11 you could still take a deciel reading if you felt that it was rockus Behavior I I guess is that true or false yes so it it still controls a noise level but Amplified music absolutely is inside after 11:00 correct and that's that's it yes okay thank you other questions um I've got one more I just want to clarify on H um take out the Amplified piece um any other form of sound that may be heard outside the properly line generated after 11 until 7 but it doesn't have a decibal level there so if I I would interpret that is that even talking could potentially be a problem under Section H because it doesn't specify a de decibel level am I reading that correctly or so the decibel reading is 65 okay but it's not specified in there it's specified in I but not in h which is the outside of the structure where I is the inside of the structure well H is is establishing that generated um Amplified sound generated outside the structure is unlawful noise yep any any Amplified sound period it doesn't I got that okay it's more the rockus behavior is what I'm concerned about because any other form of sound yes it's not defining that 65 DB defining that as 65 D so potentially just talking could be in violation of H am am I reading that if I might I get I get what you're saying but I just want to make sure we word this correctly the first time if I might clarify uh city manager can you remind them of subsection C yes thank you so section c sets the decel reading at 65 DB before 11:00 at the source of the of the property at the property line of the complaintant okay and subsection C is not being changed by this ordinance cor no Gavin you're okay um no because I'm reading C it says the production of sound including sounds from amplifier phonograph Hi-Fi stereo taper compact disc digital sound or any other type of sound broadcasting or sound application uh amplification device whether from moving Vehicles V vessels or stationary locations um I don't see where it talks about in effect Behavior you know people being loud you know we know alcohol late at night people are having a great time it can get it could get loud but nowhere in there does it say that that's subject to the 65 D at the property line right it does not so that could be a problem to Residents who live nearby to businesses I think that the issue with the residents who live nearby in the businesses um is that that rockus type of sound it it really spikes it's not that constant the laughing and then the quiet and laughing and quiet and quiet I think that that's the issue um when the deputies have been on on site when there have been you know a number of people they traditionally take the reading and find that a violation does not occur because it's not over a continuous period of time what if you had I mean it's season people are down on vacation they're chinging glasses they're playing cornhole after 11:00 outside that's going to go beyond 2 minutes potentially and that's that's the noise that can disrupt sleep how do we address that in these codes I don't know if I see it I need some help seeing that mhm yeah it doesn't specifically address that in the code the rockus behavior okay is that what you consider rockus cling a glass well if you're doing a lot of it people are partying they're having a great time let's not have yeah we're not discussion please but I I just don't see in here where people having a great time for more than two minutes and it it could be a problem there's no control for that it's it's just the Amplified sound that seems to be what we're controlling under H and Okay Kevin your point is made okay um or you could just say anybody having a great time over two minutes you're going to be in trouble you know I I I don't know I mean Rocket's Behavior may be in the eye of the beholder um I I mean you know if you want to Define it it maybe that's where you're going can you Define but you're saying more normal let's get together you know is not going to impinge because of the the the length that they take that decibel reading correct Jennifer that's what correct yes do you feel that it is lacking in a some sort of a definition no there is a section of the code that pertains to rockus behavior I would need some time to to to look that up because there is a section of the code that that applies to inappropriate rockus behavior if you will but I I I don't know offand which section it is right now so that this really does not address that issue I think the sound level at 65 DB would address the rockus behavior issue yes okay anything else members Dennis okay the chair is willing to entertain a motion I make a motion we move I make a motion we move forward with um noise code 2422 subject to clarifying for the Commissioners how ruckus's Behavior would be addressed through this code is there a second I'll second thank you all oh oh we did discussion right yeah yes so so we are voting now oh no you get discussion yeah there's Bard discussion on a proposed motion before voting um so gosh now you threw it right out of my brain because I was trying to say that oh I know what I was going to say is that you what Jennifer is saying which I believe is that when when you look at this it has all these other regulations statutes that come above it I mean or that intersect with it I mean it's got other regulations than just what you're reading and one of them is rockus and uh Behavior correct and I think uh you know you know Mr Benjamin's comment is a well-placed comment uh and that motion gives us the opportunity to provide the city commission with those code sections for rockus Behavior I think we'll be able to settle that okay so just so everybody understands that that's what's happening you have said there are other things that read into this ordinance that the other regulations go into this ordinance that may not be specifically enumerated right they're not mutually exclusive this pertains to noise um and there are other sections of the code that that pertain to behavior curent yeah okay is there other discussion hearing none it's all in favor of the motion i i i opposed the eyes have it the motion passes thank you thank you we now move on to ordinance 2423 of the city of denan amending section 17-32 outdoor dining regulations of the city of the needen Land Development code to provide outdoor hospitality and sidewalk regulations and amending appendix C development charges and impact fees to remove the fee for conditional use for outside dining and right no no and add right of way use agreement fee has anyone on the board had any experte regarding this item no Deputy clerk we're going to square in now for item 2 B any wishing to speak please raise your right hand do you the testimony you are about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you thank you staff thank you of the board GE all right just turn that off George Kenny on behalf of the Community Development Department um so I will be uh tackling this particular uh section Amendment this is an amendment to section 10732 which is formerly known as our outdoor dining regulations um and I'll kind of walk you through a brief PowerPoint presentation then happy to answer any questions at the end uh the intent of this effort was to first and foremost clearly separate the regulations into two areas one being outdoor hospitality and that would be an area that's occurring solely on private property within the confines of the existing lot lines the second was to then identify and articulate rules and regulations for The Sidewalk Cafe which are those types of things if you can picture the living room where it's occurring in a in a city right of way and those uh have and will continue to require City commission approval through a right of-way use agreement so we think we've accomplished that with this ordinance we have sep seated those two Provisions so you'll see 10732 now broken into two clearly distinct uh sections each with clear definitions preceding each section uh why is an outdoor dining permit needed so this was a question that came up as we were working through this process uh over the last year and a half or so uh an outdoor Hospitality by definition does not require a building permit uh so where we can where the city can actually conduct a proper Life Safety congestion re review uh that would normally occur when a building permit is submitted so in other words if you're doing outdoor dining if we don't have notice from a city perspective we are then we would not know whether occupancy issues whether parking issues whether bathroom issues are are appropriately accommodated uh secondly it provides an opportunity for the city to assure that adequate parking restroom facilities and fire safety egress uh measures are provided as part of that uh subordinate operation uh and finally it's really necessary for a codified record you heard some discussion about uh Code Compliance and how that process works through the first ordinance uh those Provisions are necessary to go to a code enforcement board or to enter into a chronic nuisance provision uh and absent those we have no legal standing now I just kind of want to take some time and walk through some of the major significant changes between the existing ordinance as it sits and the proposed Ord is before you for your consideration uh and I'll just kind of walk through each of these bullet points and I kind of already touched on the first one you know the the idea was to separate the provisions for private property applications and RightWay applications so that is again outdoor Hospitality think private uh uh Sidewalk Cafe think public RightWay use uh and the inclusion of clear definitions which again are articulated in both entries to those two two separate sections and then uh um an overall size so a lot of uh comment has been uh thrown around with regards to you know how big can these areas be what what you know what are the limitations what are the sizes that U some businesses will will move to so and from our perspective where we landed this is really a self-regulating document in the sense that it's really from the city's perspective the parking the capacity the occupancy limitations that will regulate the size of that area but as a safeguard uh what we've done is in the current ordinance there is a conditional use provision for any size that exceeds 500 square fet what we've done is we said we want to move uh a larger size business operation to a design review process and we set that limit at 2,000 square ft and you can kind of see that in that graphic uh located Below in the slide here this is an actual representation of the blur nightclub with the existing building configuration a couple of out Parcels uh you can see the configuration of the lot roughly 40t wide and 190 ft deep and you can see what that 2,000t area might look embedded into that particular property now again I want to say that's the 2,000t limitation but if the parking and the restrooms aren't there to support that 2,000 square ft you're likely to get something a little bit smaller than that um so there'll be some business decisions that will need to be made as part of providing those restrooms providing those parking areas and of course as you all know there are some different uh incentives for Downtown parking than there are outside the CRA um the next bullet point is that current conditional use process as I just mentioned would be modified to a design review process so again 500 square fet was the max before you had to go to the board of adjustment and appeals to do a public review of an expanded outdoor dining area above that 500 square ft this provision uh recommends that that again be moved to not more than 2,000 square ft and then subject to design review so that is 1,500 square ft more than would be offered under the current proposal George can you go back to that slide sure so you've got the 25 by 80 outdoor Hospitality area defined there but there's a lot of additional space uh between the food trailer and the existing building and also towards honey Lane what prevents that from being used as outdoor space as well so as part of the permit process that outdoor dining area has to be defined and it has to be delineated so that configuration is just a configuration that we brought up that configuration can be whatever the business owner decides they want that outdoor area to be okay and that's part of that approval process as we're working through those permits so how would that be delineated just for the help of everybody to understand so uh currently the way it's delineated is it's going to be by perit so they're going to they're going to they'll provide a record of that area that they want to find and there's also some requirements for some perimeter fencing railing perimeter uh barriers if you will to to kind of encase that that outdoor dining area okay which would all be shown as part of that permit process so that'd be in the permit so if they started putting more tables around it than what was approved then that could be a violation of that permit because it's different than what was applied for correct that's correct and that's the way it currently exists okay thank you can I ask one question sure while we're at this point so I'm I'm a little confused and trying to understand the less than 500 ft the 500 to 1,999 ft and then the 2,000 and greater what what happens or what needs to happen from an owner standpoint at each one of those steps so the 500 square fet is the current limit so the current limit so if you came in today under the current regulations and you want a 600t outdoor dining area we would say that needs to go to the board of adjustment and appeal for review because it's above that 500 it's elevated to a public review process what we're suggesting is we will move that to a design review process but that limit will be will go from 500 500 square fet to 2,000 square feet so anything if this is adopted anything under 2,000 ft would be approved administratively anything above 2,000 ft then would end that public review process in in a in a design review form is that did I so is the 500 ft still in play or is everything then between zero and no the five we're we're proposing the 500 squ foot be struck in favor of the 2,000 ft right thank you um one of the other provisions of the current regulation is the permit is not transferable uh we have um suggested as part of this rewrite that the permit becomes trans uh permit becomes transferable and that is if the operation that's approved uh remains exactly the same as was originally approved so you can transfer the permit however if the new owner then decides that they want to do something a little bit larger they would have to come back in for that reval uh with respect to and it this kind of gets back to uh uh Mr Benjamin's question on defining that outdoor dining area this is just kind of a a a simple illustration that shows how that might look uh with that commercial use in the foreground the outdoor dining area defined behind it that outdoor dining area then would be would be delineated through um requirements of not more than 42 Ines of either plantings railings or fencing and then this this ordinance actually goes a step further to protect uh those properties that are occupied by a residential use so if you kind of follow that graphic around in a circle you'll see that the property applying for the permit is a commercial commercially used property the property to the left and to the right are commercially used and then you can see where the ones kind of in the upper leftand corner are under a residential use so when you have that common property line what this ordinance does is it recommends a more significant barrier between those two uh neighboring properties and I say that with a caveat because that barrier can be waved if the if the person if the residential use property wants to have that wave so if you move into one of those residential sites and you say and this person's asking for an outdoor dining permit and you say really I I want to really enjoy that property and walk to it those two the property owner and the permit holder can say we're waving that particular provision can you say what the fencing requirement is I'm sorry what is the fencing requirement so the fencing required a fence up to 8 ft in height thank you and if I I'm sorry if I were to sell my home and a new person comes in does the process start all over again or no sir no no sir that permit's issued and as long as that property owner is contining to use that property as it was issued by permit that Pro new property owner is coming in knowing full well what is occurring on that site so right they are not subject to to coming back in um this was hit on a little bit in the previous uh presentation but there we did also incorporate nuisance Provisions there's a reference to uh some of the exact language that Jennifer Bramley just noted with respect to um chronic nuisance um so we that is cited in the new language as a reference and that could lead potentially to revocation um but it's more of a progressive kind of uh um uh route if you will it starts with those establishing that nuisance activity it goes to the action plan and then depending on how the applicant responds to that action plan it can it it can it can move forward favorably or it can or it could move to the next level of potentially revocation and then finally I think the issue that you're going to hear most about this evening is vacating the property uh after 11: p.m. um we are recommending that that be removed from this particular request uh it is obviously in the current uh ordinance um and we are and I I I would say to you that in removing that um there is still the provision in the ordinance it talks about the limited legal hours of operation of the actual business itself and this outdoor dining is outdoor dining area is still tied to that so once the business shuts down the outdoor dining area must also shut down uh finally on the implementation side um what we are proposing as part of this ordinance an adoption is a three-year grace period for for uh applicants to come into uh to pull their permits uh have those reviews and and make those decisions on moving forward um this graph that you can see below um is a product of some inquiries where folks ask you know how many properties in the city could potentially take advantage of of this outdoor dining provision um this is obviously a worst case scenario because this assumes any zoning category that would allow the property would be doing this use and as you know that's that's not going to happen you know there's a lot of other uses but you can see that where these could occur are downtown core on a andc streets um also in what's called a t tourist facility District our form based districts our neighborhood business district our general business district our shopping center district and our commercial Plaza districts so that leads to total potential of 780 Parcels or so out of the 13,800 Parcels that are exist in the city of dun Eden so the max percentage based on those uh counts is about five five and a half per. and again I would say you can cut three4 of that right off the top because most of these properties are used for doctor's offices and offices and other uses that might be permitted in those zoning categories um so you're you're not realistically going to have that that situation but this is a Max a Max scenario uh again on the implementation side uh one of the things I I definitely want to make very clear is that uh pass written approvals are intended to be honored um so any property currently occupied by or proposing outdoor Hospitality shall comply with these regulations on or prior to September 1 2027 with the following exceptions and those are one any current outdoor Hospitality area that has received the conditional use approval certainly can shall and can continue pursuant to the conditions of that approval any current outdoor outdoor Hospitality area that has received written City permissions may continue pursuant to those written approvals and any current outdoor Hospitality area that has properly applied for and received an outdoor dining permit uh prior to uh today uh may continue under those approvals provided the area and seating approvals authorized by that approval have not expanded um you know what we're seeing out there is uh some permanent approvals which have clearly expanded beyond what they were approved for so they'll have some decisions to make on whether or not they want to come back into compliance with that existing permit or reapply under the new rules and see if there's an opportunity for for more seating in the areas that they've occupied so you're saying not everything is Grandfather correct I mean if they have already added some extra apperences or whatever then what no great question Miss KES so so when we say grandfather what we would be talking about is any outdoor seating area that was established prior to 2011 when this ordinance came into play so if that outdoor dining ordinance is consistent with what they had in prior to 2011 that would be allowed to continue however if that if that business expanded after 2011 and no permit was received for that expansion they would have to come back in they basically under the new they basically expanded a non-conforming use right uh final my final slide for you all is um there was a meeting uh held by the BRC uh a couple of weeks ago on July 10th say 2022 that should be 2024 obviously um this did not make it into your existing ordinance package so these are for your consideration but these were suggestions that came out of that final uh that final meeting and that was to modify the fencing material uh to include wood as an option so that's you'll find that under 107 32.3 outdoor Hospitality uh fencing and railing it did it used to say fencing and railing shall be limited to material made of PVC we're just suggesting that the word would be included uh in in that so there are some additional options for those Property Owners uh the second piece of this is requiring a sound attenuation plan there was a lot of discussion at the BRC with regards to when a sound attenuation plan should be provided so the suggested language based on some of that feedback is that a sound attenuation plan would be provided when an adjoining property is occupied by residential use and then the pl the plan would be prepared uh by professional and submitted with that permit application so those are generally the the changes I have I'm sure you're going to have a lot of questions uh and I do have uh uh some some information on the nuisance regulations if you have questions on those but otherwise Happy to answer any questions you might have George uh quick question for you on the modifi fencing material to include wood it talks about no more than 50% opaque does that include that 8ft wall as a buffer between yeah no that's a separate section Mr Benjamin so if there is a section above that that talks about the OT requirement and the opaque is taken out of that okay so that has to be a solid wall so that it stops the sound waves yes as best possible okay other questions um just um so how many outdoor um areas do we have currently uh we have 25 permitted but we have probably ma sheet here we did kind of an informal windshield of the downtown CRA and we have about 57 businesses that could take advantage of it and about 30 that the way they're structured now would be subject to the new regulations but we have 25 permitted now that's Citywide the permitted one so in the downtown we have about 16 permitted well not about we do have 16 permitted that uh George 16 permitted downtown 25 overall total total and then 30 are will be subject to new RS so there are a few out there that we see that have out or dining that have not been permitted at this point any other questions ah hearing none so then we are open for public input CH I will share again that we did receive several comments public comments via EC comment and email those have been distributed and will be made part of the record also on item 2B we do have one representative who has registered to speak for the group so that will be a 10-minute comment up to 10 minutes should they need it that is Katie du [Applause] prisi hi there if you could kindly confirm your name address and confirm that you've been sworn in please Perfect um Katie duar pisi um my my address is 6:30 Athens Street uh and I have been sworn in and can I confirm who you'll be speaking on behalf of uh sure um Dre uh Gonzalez um Larry Hearn um Lisa and uh I always pronounced your name wrongly so I'm sorry San petro and Shane I'm sorry Shane worth oh yeah duh sorry okay thank you all right um thank you so much for allowing me to speak today my name is Katie Duan pissi I'm a Duneden business owner also the chair of CH the chair of the Chamber of Commerce and I own two homes here in Den Eden by the stadium 637 Bel trees and 6:30 Athens Street I'm I strongly support removing the word vacate from our current ordinance businesses open past 11:00 p.m. should be allowed to utilize their entire premises including outdoor space until they close our existing noise ordinance enforced by local sheriff's office already ensures noise levels remain reasonable past 11:00 p.m. currently our downtown patrol officer shift ends at 11:00 p.m. to address this and balance both businesses and residents the city should extend the sheriff's patrol officer later um most likely until 3:00 a.m. when the last bar closes I'm not advocating for loud music on out outdoor patios past 11:00 p.m. just for patrons to step outside for a conversation or to be with their dog or to smoke interestingly if business owners cover their patios the vacate the patio ordinance wouldn't apply however some Property Owners may be prohibited to cover uh to cover their patios or businesses can't afford to install the cover thus unfairly penalizing these establishments imagine if we were forced inside our homes at 11:00 p.m. and couldn't go outside that wouldn't be right our homes are regulated by a noise ordinance and businesses should be as well not by not by the unfair vacate rule please allow these businesses to operate fully during their normal business hours and extend the sheriff's Patrol until later to address any noise concerns thank you for your consideration I'm also speaking today on behalf of a business owner in Zen Eden who is a member of our Chamber of Commerce uh Helen Courtney uh the owner of reboot so I'll be speaking uh for her my parents moved to den Eden 35 years ago my husband George and I have rented and own homes in Duneden since 2007 and we currently live in downtown core we've watched this community grow a lot over the years and have supported almost every Shop restaurant and charitable organization that we can wherever our travels take us we continue to to feel at home here and enjoy everything the City offers when we decided to invest our life savings into becoming a bigger part of this community we choose to we chose to open a business we are passionate about and something we felt residents from all over Tampa Bay would enjoy we carefully planned and hoped for our unique concept at reboot that would appeal to all people of all ages and thankfully it does like our fellow business owners we have had our challenges over the last few years trying to keep our business afloat and have uh faced other another one recent excuse me um we have faced challenges over the last few years trying to keep our businesses afloat and have faced another one in recent months reboot has a lively indoor space but George and I have always felt that it's important to have a comfortable outside space and a sanctuary with a stimulate from the stimulating Vibe inside since 2018 our guests have been enjoying our patio where you can find chill music a large beautiful oak tree and Friends chatting in the last 6 years we've been open and have never received a Cit for noise or occupancy in regarding our small patio however a select few residents continuing to to try and change the way businesses have and residents and business own have been operating for over the years are now targeting our business an effort to engage with more residents and business owners we felt it was important to share our experience and make locals aware that our city is now enforcing 11:00 p.m. vacate rule because we number one don't have an awning and number two have an outdoor dining permit since our neighbor since our neighborhood bars and restaurants were open during later hours we did not think we were breaking any ordinances this is confusing for everyone and it seemed to have shocked our community the overwhelming response from locals is clear the majority of Duneden residents business owners Hospitality workers and visitors do not want to be regulated to a curfew and be told to vacate an outside space Bas on their own property or business establishment that we've enjoyed for years already businesses not only choose to use their outdoor spaces in later hours there is a need for them for residents and Hospitality workers not everyone has a nto5 job and those people deserve the freedom to sit outside we operate a business downtown but more importantly we've been residents of dun Eden for almost 20 years and when I've decided to move our family downtown we fully understood that we were moving one block away from Main Street and in a downtown core property District we choose to be clear we chose to be closer to active streets and shops where you'll find the comforting sounds of people socializing enjoying themselves we chose D Eden because it's safe inclusive of all people and has the potential for future growth we encourage the city officials to please remove the vacate terms in the outs outside dining ordinance a noise ordinance is in place to protect protect us and other downtown core residents from excessive noise over 65 DB which is very favorable for residents like myself and family thank you Helen so thank you thank you Mary aend hi I'm Mary aand and uh I live at 938 lav Avenue I am again taking the word have you been sworn in oh yes than yes sorry no worries I am against taking the word vacate out of the proposed ordinance in a community that's uh is the quality of life that is important not just the entertainment aspect for the uh tourist and for the party goers their proposed ordinance goes beyond downtown area this is a city-wide ordinance and it should not have to take into effect other areas I'd like to go ahead and see this ordinance kick down the road for the next 6 to 8 months and have other public workshops to other communities this is going to affect the cause way uh is going to affect the Coca-Cola Redevelopment area this goes Way Beyond just downtown if you're going to go ahead and have a downtown ordinance then so do it but not go ahead and involve the whole city I mean other other places have ordinance for Historical Society you know for downtown uh historical areas so if we're going in that direction you need to go ahead and really look at this and treat the city the correct way and you know not isolate and you know do all this to the whole city so that's my comment thank you thank you very much M Tina [Applause] Aila hello everybody I'm Tina Aila owner of Catina denen and I have been sworn in okay um okay I wrote this on a phone like my kids would do and then I can't read it downtown cores are meant to be vibrant when we started our restaurant casatinas in 1992 that was not the case except for a few months between Christmas and Mother's Day this downtown literally had tumble weeds floating down Main Street to combat this for decades independent businesses such as ours FL fans DED and Brewery along with the Merchants Association have worked tirelessly through free community events to promote our downtown and grow our economic stability and prosperity and we've been successful we are the Envy of communities throughout pelis Hillsboro and other Florida counties being too restrictive in a city's downtown core that is the point it's the downtown core I do agree with the lady that just spoke is that the downtown should be treated the core should be treated differently from other parts of dedan because this is the business of the downtown core is to be the economic and vibrant part of the city being too restrictive in that core stifles creativity growth and sustainability and we need to fight for our rights to be able to operate in a way that's necessary to continue this culture that dun has created prosperous joyous and a lively Center we are envied for secondly many of our downtown Hospitality workers enjoy that quality of life that the previous resident spoke about quality of life is for everybody not just those that work 9 to5 or retirees the time to unwind and relax may be after their shift when they have the chance to frequent the multiple businesses that operate past 11:00 p.m. the outdoor seating benefits are valued by both that worker and the said B business who has made a business plan based upon those people's butts in seats during those hours this is an economic issue as well if you take those seats away after 11: p.m. and reduce the occupancy level of those businesses they might not succeed please think and act with all members of our community's members needs met equally I hope that someday we can cheers with a glass of wine or a beer at re boot or dun Brew one evening after 11: p.m. when I get off of work thank you thank you Hunter Bryant [Applause] [Applause] hi I'm Hunter Bryant um I live at 518 Bel Street I have been sworn in um I've lived in Duneden for over 10 years um and I have worked at Duneden Brewery for 10 years some people have chosen to make the issues we are talking about today their business but like a lot of employees and business owners I did not choose to have this issue affect me it directly affects my work which is my home so it affects my entire life every single day I have been affected by a lot of decisions that our government has made in the 10 years I've lived here from the decision to have paid parking to the mass mandate during covid and the Sound Ordinance that is very lenient to Residents myself and my fellow co-workers have had people spit at us cuss at us call us names and the list goes on and on all because of decisions that were out of our hands and out of our boss's hands we have locals that still refuse to come to Duneden Brewery because we follow the law and enforc the mass mandate from the rising housing market to the ridiculous insurance rates a lot of us have already been pushed out of this amazing little town and I fear that this issue that we're talking about isn't really about noise but a battle against an alternative lifestyle our lifestyle a Bohemian lifestyle that starts work at 5: or 6:00 p.m. and clocks out anywhere from 2: to 4:00 a.m. or sometimes even later a lifestyle where music is our religion and beers are used to not have a good time but to have an even better time we are downtown every week to serve smiles and to have fun and greet all the tourists locals aren't just regulars but they're our family and we are the Frontline workers we have a real pulse on what is happening in our town more of a pulse than anyone I think we know why people are here how they heard about us and where they came from we talk to so many people every day that are confused that this is going on locals and people from out of town and not only are they confused but so are we confused as to why a curfew of any sort would even be considered in the first place I do not want just to be heard today by my community I want to be considered and I want all of the employees downtown to be considered when making these decisions the 11:00 p.m. curfew is ridiculous and the language should be taken out of the ordinance thank you thank you Lex Carr [Applause] good evening my name is Lex Carr I reside at 3200 Berlin Game court and I have been sworn in got it uh just to start thank you for hearing us all out today um let me go ahead and start first off I want to say that I am in support of removing the word vacate or the idea of a vacating time uh from the ordinance verbage and allowing businesses to use 100% of their property at their own discretion without unnecessary oversight from residents or local government I believe that a vacate policy will not only reduce the income of all of the employees in town that are service workers barbacks uh Cooks bartenders managers everyone I have personally worked at seven different businesses in downtown and I can say with an assurity the better half of my income comes after 11:00 p.m. um my girlfriend works in downtown all of my close friends are in the service industry and what you are suggesting or what is being proposed by some is to reduce their mean income significantly you will then reduce patronage to this town you will then reduce the overall economy of downtown dun Eden which is absolutely based on tourists not only that by creating this conflict you now have a situation where you're going to cause employees and not even owners to have to start confrontations with most patrons who are not going to be familiar with this ordinance and it will only serve to create less traffic and tourism through our town I went to Duneden middle I graduated from Duneden high school I have been here my whole life I I already can't afford to live here because of the things that have happened so to see that this is trying to be furthered just is blatantly regressive to the produ to the success of this town it is uh predatory on our local businesses and I don't think that the complaints of a a few should not only affect all of the owners but the people who don't make a lot of money that try to live here you know it's it is ridiculous to think that by reducing the overall business in town that it'll make this place better it simply won't and I hope that you consider not only the business owners who pay the better part of the taxes of this town and are part of the downtown Duneden Merchants Association but the dishwashers the street cleaners the barbacks and everyone that does the dirty work for this place to be as great as it is because we all work and most of those people don't get out until the evening time and they have every right to sit outside have a conversation take a breath of fresh air and enjoy themselves without a conflict from every business owner saying you have to leave or stay inside thank you Deborah Chase hello I'm Deborah Chase I live at 548 Chicago Avenue and I have been swor it um I'm just a resident I've been coming at dun Eden for 20 years and four years ago my husband and I retired and moved here and and the reason we love dun Eden is because of the diversity of the generations here you have young people families and retirees like me not to mention all the tourists and I just feel like you know if you hurt these businesses you're killing the town that we fell in love with I I that's why we're here that's why people come here and love it here it's it's about all the different people the young people the old people everyone together living and letting letting everyone else live so I just want to speak up for the businesses thank you Kevin Connell Kevin Connell we'll move on to Michael [Music] [Applause] kman hello my name is Michael kman I have been sworn in uh I live at 582 Baywood Drive North and I own 933 Huntley Avenue uh regarding the Ohi the word vacate oh I need my glasses I can't do that without those regarding the word vacate I'd like to thank you guys for uh recommending to remove that it's restri restricting the right to assemble including the owners of the property I couldn't be able to go on my own property after 11: p.m. with word vacate in there that's clearly unconstitutional and I don't want the taxpayers to have to support a lawsuit that would surely happen while an Ohi may be needed for sidewalk caase it's not needed for the private areas we're talking about every BTR already has plenty of requirements there's a lot of work I went through this it took me two years to open my business from the day I walked in and had my my design review two years to open a business that's a burden that's uh both financial and Regulatory on small mom and popop businesses in this town now other people who are let's say large developers or chain restaurants they can eat that up they don't care they'll fight all those rules and get their businesses in there because they have six seven restaurants they know how to work the system but Mom and Pops who who are all the people out here can't do that they're going to go out of business um does every each and every BTR holder that has a table outside including say a restaurant on the causeway or a place up the road are they going to have to get this because we removed it down to zero and they got to go to a design review if they have a table outside in they're a restaurant do they have to now get a new permit and with this new permit do they have to count their bathrooms and their parking spots how many businesses are going to be shut down or have to just shut up all of their stuff so again I'd say the Ohi should not even exist what's the plan for these percentage of these 786 permits uh if if a professional office has a table outside when do they start to be called Hospitality it was dining now it's hospitality um we you shutter businesses that we love if they cannot complete the new permits for bathrooms and parking I know that they kind of put in here that we're going to have some grandfathering but nobody wants to see skips or flanigans close down because they don't have the room physical room to put in new bathrooms and make parking it's just not going to happen you close them down there'll be a war other things other things in this are weird operation things you have to move your patio furniture inside my concrete tables weigh 1,200 lb they are Cat 5 resistant but the wording says I have to bring them inside I get a fine and if I don't do that three times in a row now I'm a a nuisance and you you could shut my business down because I didn't bring my concrete tables that it takes a forklift to lift to move them in are these same restrictions on the place right across from me that's a large apartment complex that has hundreds of patio tables outside why just a business am I done 10 minutes I'm 10 seconds okay last is thank you for your time I know you guys put a lot of hard work into this thanks again Dennis fzone palone I think palone Dennis okay Cali Karu hi there my name is k through I live at 1095 Mary Jane Lane um and I have been sworn in okay um you really I I appreciate that you are looking to take that word vacate the property out I'm a seven-year resident of dun Eden I moved here from a town in New Jersey got a problem with that um uh it it was a Jersey Shore town called Belmar and and um when I'm 71 years old in my whole life there were six bars along the ocean front there and uh people decided uh between some new residents and some developers that um they were a nuisance and they created a regulation where bars in all of Mammoth County used to close at 2:00 in the town of balmore suddenly they closed at 12 and the enforcements started and the police came in at exactly 12:00 and 1 second and if there was a patron in there walking out the business got fined then they then they moved it to enforcing even people as they were leaving if they were walking down the street talking loud or something like that they find the business and and it was it went on and on end of the story is the people who did this are no longer running the town except the damage was done out of those six bars that were there for all of my 70 years there's one left the rest are closed and the rest have been replaced by multi-million dollar houses along the ocean I don't want to see that happen to Dun Eden I moved here because this is a fun place you know it's there's lots of great things to do let's let's keep it you know I I appreciate what you want to do the outdoor space is important and I love it here and I think you do too thank you very much thank you Devin KPS [Applause] hello everyone um my name is Devon creps and I live at 412 beles and I have been signed in sworn in sworn in um and I also own the 7th Sunbury at 1012 Broadway and den Eden um essentially most of the points that I wanted to make today have been made by many of the people who just came up here and spoke I just wanted to put in my two cents that I also support um removing the word vacate from this document because of everything that they were saying before you know um we have a noise ordinance that's the reason that it exists um we don't you need to put a you know a v a vacate on our patios in order to police the noise because the noise ordinance exists for that reason um Additionally you know I feel like honestly things have gotten quieter here personally what I've notice and night like it used to be a little bit crazier and now it seems like since Co it's been a lot quieter I know for our business um we used to be open midnight every night and we have essentially you know we're pretty much dead by 11: so I mean I'm this isn't even really going to affect me that much but part of what I love about this town is it's there's a there's life to it you know whether it's late at night or during the day there's people out and about they're enjoying themselves and that's part of what I love about dun Eden you know I I live by the stadium and the stadium is loud I like it that's it's part of what I like about living here so um additionally I want to say too that you know to Kal's point before like enforcement all that thing all those things those that's incredibly difficult to do and it's a slippery slope so I appreciate your consideration and all the work that you guys have been doing on this and um I hope that you remove the term vacate from the language thank you thank you Noel McCormick Melissa McCormick hi I'm Melissa McCormick and I live at 247 Scotland Street and I have been sworn in thanks um again my name is Melissa McCormick um I live at 247 Scotland Street I was born and raised here in dun Eden and I've lived in my home the Octagon House there on Scotland Street for 20 years um and let me just say I've been referenced in a number of uh other comments I'm not here to fight or to battle I'm here to hopefully find some sort of compromise the reality is a lot of these bars have moved into the residential areas I live in a historical home that is part of the downtown overlay that was important enough to protect the charm and quess of dun Eden that there's extra zoning requirements on what we can and can't do in our with our facilities in our home so and that that that's part of being there as well um but when the bars move in directly across the street and you laugh about whether it's called rockus Behavior or people playing cornhole when it's 4 feet from your bedroom window at 3:00 a.m. in the morning it isn't funny anymore you can't sleep so I'm a longtime rotarian and one of the caveats and principles of rotary is it fair to all concerned and I really don't think you you keep hearing 11:00 mentioned as I want to be able to be outside at 11: that's fine but what it is is being outside at 3:00 a.m. doing the same thing that you're doing at 11 and in a residential area which Scotland Street is that's not a good compromise that's not a compromise so you know I don't think it was even looked at could it be midnight and 1 instead of 11 and 12 you know is there some buffer that could be so that when as someone mentioned before the property line of the business is the property line of the complaint and that is the case here you the rules should probably be a little bit different than for someone whose business is right downtown in the area where there are no residents around so that's that's what I'm hoping for because if we're being honest here there's no dining happening after 11:00 it's outdoor drinking and socializing whether I want to participate in that or not is not the point the value of my home is not the point the the point is is it fair to to have their property rights of being able to be outside and be loud I know we have the noise ordinance I know it's a separate ordinance and there's a a deciel level that is uh in place at 65 dcel it's hard to enforce all of that burden of enforcement goes to the resident we have to call the police we have to get the police out there give them our name to get them to enforce that if it's people outside talking and socializing they'll be quiet when the police show up so thank you thank [Applause] you Pat [Applause] Miles my advertisment is on the back for those of you hi Pat Miles 944 Michelle Circle and I have been War thank you good evening I'm privileged to wear several hats in the city and for that I'm very grateful I'm the marketing committee on the chamber I'm the vice president of the ddma but the Hat I'm wearing this evening is for the website I promote gotonight.com the website promotes live music in the area and in the state and the 50 plus place that we have in dun Eden that has live music all of these places add to our economy live music makes our town vibrant our weather allows for outdoor seating outdoor activities and the ability to be outside is very positive for our area the restrictions we all have to compromise and I understand we need to compromise but we do need to have the businesses be allowed to do their business the majority of residents and visitors are repeat Spenders spending their money with all the businesses who live in the music who love the music vents tipping the musicians which appreciate the live music in my opinion the majority should have the stronger vote several weeks ago I brought a hundred people to the city July 2nd through the 6th I had only compliments about our city how walkable it is how many options we have to have fun day and night how at night we can go and listen to music at all different genas and be safe I'm also glad to say that I was also glad that I didn't have to tell them they had to be home by midnight because there was an ordinance I also want you to point out I want to point out an unintended consequence about vacate think about the musician who has just gotten rid of or just gotten done with a three-hour gig takes from 20 to 25 minutes to wrap up their cords takes them 20 to 25 minutes to go find their car bring it get back to the establishment and load their equipment now we're at the hour we're at the 11:00 can't they sit down and have a beverage can't they enjoy their snack that they were given by The Establishment I do want to thank you for your time and I want you to remember that music makes a town Go Round And if you're looking for some fun go to gotonight.com [Applause] Kelly [Applause] Morris Kelly Morris Kimberly [Applause] Platt Aloha my name is Kimberly PL I own the property at 516 Grant Street and I'm the owner of the H new restaurant and have you been sworn oh yeah so yeah I've been sworn in and I swear a lot so I'm going to try not to do that up here um I'm kind of thrown because reading through this I sit on the BRC board and I didn't realize that um we were going to add the word wood to this it almost made me cry and it made me cry because we created the BRC board to actually work on this we worked on it for two years two hard long years we met a lot we talked a lot everybody went out and talked the residents talked the resence the businesses talked to the businesses some of us crossed over that we all talked to the city it took a lot to get where we are now I think what we've proposed and what the city and with George is proposing here um is what we all agreed on um taking that vacate word out it's massive it's massive for so many things for me personally I don't have a dog in the fight so I've been told because of what we are doing we are spending a lot of money to cover the front of our business we made that decision to do that because of the restrictions we had so I have to stop looking at that word wood it's just throwing me cuz I'm so happy about it because Tiki is wood and we were fighting to get that word in there because why would I put a PVC or rot iron fence around my beautiful gorgeous wood structure we're doing so that piece of it does my heart good and when I go home to my wife tonight she says look what time it is and I say guess what's in there now and I tell her it's the wood she's going to be so so happy so many people put so much time and effort into this that I think that what's written should go through all I'm asking is consideration for the immense time and effort that everybody has put into this um everybody who stays involved everybody that's been involved um there's so many people that are misinformed about what's happening but we've been doing this for 2 years I feel like I say this up here all the time when I'm here I sit on the CRA board I sit on the board of the chamber I've been the president of ddma I keep feeling like every time we're at this point I'm saying the same thing we've been doing this and I am this passionate about it because I care about this community you know we put Blood Sweat and Tears I mean you see me hobbling around this is not because I'm sitting at a computer desk it's because I'm in my restaurant 70 to 80 hours a week and I'm coming to and sit on all these boards and volunteering because I love this place so much I just want to say that it means all the people Doney is for all the people everybody wants to be like us let them be like us let them try to be like us it's hard to be like Don eeden and it is the people and it is the businesses that highlight this if we wouldn't if we wouldn't keep thriving we wouldn't have the people give us the opportunity to do this and not go backwards thank [Applause] you Daniel pra thank you Jody pello Jody pello 960 Parkwood Drive in dun Eden and uh yes I've been sworn in so uh I've been a resident taxpayer for close to 30 years in this town and always promoted it always loved coming downtown some time is way too much uh about 3 and a half years ago I opened a restaurant downtown right in the middle of downtown and I joined all the things just so I could learn the system I ended up joining the uh the task force ended up on the head table of it after a while for some reason uh then the BRC board so it's been about 2 and A2 years of countless countless meetings compromise back and forth I've spoken to between all the meetings and all the commissions and all my customers probably more than a thousand people maybe 2,000 I don't know but I don't know maybe five people that want to shut this town down at 11:00 people come here to visit they come here to move here because it's a vibrant downtown area I don't ever plan on being open at past 11: but if I do I want it to be my choice just like every other owner that has a business down there they should be able to stay open their legal time not shut down at 11 uh that's about it that's all I got to say thank you Nikki Simonson Nikki Simonson it's not me Isaac [Applause] waseleski Isaac waleski 2180 Santa Paula Drive and yes I've been sworn in all right so I'm both the resident and the president of the downtown Den Merchants Association I've been part of this uh process for the past couple years first with the downtown task force and then sitting on the BRC with this uh outdoor Hospitality ordinance no one is getting their wish list this is not any one group's personal like yes this is exactly what we want there have been compromises on both sides back and forth to get to where we are today so it is important to note that this is really to take into account all the changes that's happened in outdoor dining since the first outdoor dining ordinance was implemented back in the 2010 revision and cifi and code the average person spends about 93% of their life indoors when covid came it forced people to eat outside more and it turns out they actually enjoy being outside and so with these concerns about noise being addressed um with weather or not the word vacate should or should not remain in it I just want to clar or make known that we do have a noise ordinance as you heard in the first section to address those complaints and concerns this the um with this outdoor Hospitality the revision directly ties a business's responsibility of noise compliance with their ability to use their outdoor space for those businesses who are not keeping on track of their uh patrons or not keeping on track of their musicians they can lose that ability to use that space so unlike other municipalities danan has an objective measure of noise instead of relying on the subjectivity of a deputy who comes out uh to respond to a complaint we have an objective measure that being the 65 DB there are existing mechanisms in our ordinance to deal with bad faith actors so let's use them if the issue is the noise ordinance and that noise ordinance is ineffective then that needs to be addressed in that section but not necessarily in this one that's just codifying the outdoor dining practices that we've seen pop up postco and that our customers and us as patrons of businesses have grown to be a custom in demand thank you very much thank you okay I've got Andy I swear I put my last name on there for the record please yes Andy poles 1942 Horseshoe Bend and have you been sworn in I have been sworn in thank you uh just want to say just a few points a lot of them have already been covered by uh Folks up here uh I'm really sorry that we're even here that we've got this far it really should never have gone this far there's a perception out there that it's business vers residence it's really not the case the vast majority of residents love what we do love what dun Eden has become uh it's just a few and I I say minority but they're very loud these these activist residents that have brought us to this place unfortunately some of them now have the backing of some special interests big developers and I feel they're trying to reshape what our town is as most of us know this old ordinance was origin usually written for RightWay dining like you said I think there's only one business that's currently using it but somewhere along the lines it got applied to every business on their own private property to the city staff's credit they're trying to fix this they're being fought Again by these same residents these same activists they're trying to confuse the general public they're trying to conflate this outdoor Hospitality issue with the noise ordinance we all know this has nothing to do with noise we already have the most restrictive noise ordinance in the county it's already in place it's not going anywhere all this has to do with is people in an outdoor seating area past 11: uh despite the attempts at passing out misinformation Flyers they're going around town you've you've seen them they State we're going to have bans till 3:00 a.m. or calling us the next eore city these Scare Tactics they just get quite old it's just nothing like that it's just simply applies to those folks that want to enjoy a smoke uh be out there with their dog they don't get off work till late it's not just the H Hospitality folks too but we got a lot of people at the hospital here a lot of First Responders doctors uh nursing assistants they don't work the typical 9 to-5 shift a lot of them come in they don't get off till midnight they like to go maybe have a cigarette uh enjoy a beer on a patio uh ironically if someone wanted to say have a smoke they they couldn't sit out on the patio but they would be allowed to leave the property go out on the sidewalk and have a cigarette it's perfectly legal that doesn't make any sense though does it uh I don't know of any other town or city that has a curfew like this I we just can't let it happen here the last point I want to make is that if these fol folks if if if it's successful and persuading the LPA and commission to implement this curfew then it really needs to apply to everybody not just the businesses these apply to the residents too because resident patios can make noise as well uh all residents should be forced to vacate and go inside off their own patios at 11: uh you imagine that if you're uh having a cocktail on your patio or talking with a family member clock strikes 11 got to go inside no that that's just silly so I say we just go with the city's recommendation let's remove the word vacate and get back to be to eeden thanks thank Michael [Applause] Bryant hello again uh Michael Bryant 5118 518 belri Street and I have been sworn in um I like most of the community you're expressing tonight oppose ordinance requirements to vacate the patios beer gardens and effectively any outdoor area of private property commercial PR private property at any time especially during legal hours of business and proper zoning requirements being met I will personally always stand against any public curfews the commercially zoned properties in question did not move into residential areas but have existed in their locations as long as the City Zoning has existed Ed they just haven't been activated as they are now activated just like a residential property might be empty at one point but somebody decides to build on that their neighbors don't get to tell them that they don't get to build their property uh the original ordinance was intended for RightWay sidewalk cafes uh used originally which was originally proposed by the living room's original owner only in the followup to restrictions bought on by covid-19 and 2020 has this conversation ever come to include private property the idea of a curfew on private property especially in the downtown core zoned Activity Center historically known to be a place of nightlife is almost baffling that some even consider it a possibility sound concerns should always be directed to the existing Sound Ordinance and nuisance laws which is very fair to the community as a whole in my opinion my other concerns relate to section 10732 do3e uh and any restrictions to a private entity's aesthetic or design and material choices which I see has already been adjusted slightly regarding section 10732 do3 E's Provisions however they are covered elsewhere in dun Eden's land code signage is all covered by the existing sign ordinance including the prohibition of advertising on umbrellas which you'll see in that section if included this section also eliminates currently used options for problem solving that my family's business has personally utilized in the past almost specifically during City sanctioned events such as Marty gr wines the blues St Patty's old-fashioned Christmas and of course our own October Fest these have always been allowed encode on private property the options proposed to be taken from us are the ability to set up a jockey box or a temporary bar this allows us to take care of more customers instead of shoving them all inside of our property inside of our business in a line going outside um oneoff food events which are allowed by the Department of Health and portalets to help with demand during city-wide events such as parades when people regularly come onto private property just to use the L we would like to still see those possibilities in the future as we've only had our Su success through these temporary measures small independent businesses need the freedom to solve their problems creatively and that section seems to effectively take away some of those Solutions so that's all I wanted to touch on appreciate you guys' time thank you okay I Mis pron pron I mispronounced this earlier John [Applause] Didier my name is John Didier or Didier uh at 1969 dunlo Circle and I have been sworn in all right I got a I got a number of points to make um I support removing the vacate verbiage from this ordinance I am a small business owner here in Duneden who has operated here in Duneden for quite some time now I go by John Diddy I'm a local musician uh this vacate verbiage negatively affects my physical well-being and my business on a number of fronts um it's really hot here in Florida and frankly a lot of the venues that I play as a musician have their live mus music outside and I would prefer to perform in a less heat abrasive scenario and therefore it's going to be later in the evening pushing that 11:00 uh Sound Ordinance curfew of sorts um in addition I would say that the general public also wants to be able to hang out Outdoors when there is not oppressive heat um for safety Reon reasons I realize that yeah if you have uh if you force people to vacate the patios or uh now somebody wants to go enjoy a cigarette they're now abandoning their alcoholic beverage in the bar because they're not allowed to have it on the patio and that's a problem from a safety standpoint uh as a musician to Echo what Pat said from go tonight um I if I'm performing up to the point of 11:00 I'm trying to get tips sell merch all of that's happening sometimes at the end of my set and I I can't do that if now suddenly everybody has to vacate the patio um and of course for the enjoyment and freedom of most people including myself I want to be able to enjoy the downtown CR for what it is I'm a product of dun Eden Florida I've grown up here and lived here since 199 three I'm also a property owner and have chosen to buy property in dun Eden Florida due to its thriving nightlife as a smaller town in Florida dun Eden is frankly better than most all of the other downtowns in Florida because they're just lame they close super early um I also want to address how this current standing verbiage is being laterally weaponized to supplement the intentions of those opposed to the Sound Ordinance that currently stands the problem at hand is regarding the sound if the problem at hand is regarding the sound emanating from these outdoor patios in the Zone Downtown core I would like to express my thoughts in opposition to the removal of this verbiage I get woken up regularly by construction and yard work and I'm not trying to dictate how those people run their business thank you Joseph [Applause] kokolakis hello again Joe kikas still live on bav USA Drive um and I haven't sworn in and and this is kind of what I wanted to speak to earlier because I do think it's a balance obviously between the residents and the businesses and like many people have said they're not opposing each other because I think it's clear that the residents that live in the downtown core came for the the very Vibe that's provided by the music by the outdoor dining um as I said earlier you know I've got 69 residents in apartments and I've got 40 commercial tenants 11 of which have outdoor seating so they have a vested interest in this plus over the course of my 38 years here I've made friends you know I see Kim up here I see Tina and you know it to see Hunter kind of shaking up up here it it bothers me as someone that's been in this community for so long um but ultimately I don't see the need to change the ordinance I think I think actually wait back up I I believe the Sound Ordinance changes the noise ordinance I think are appropriate I would like to clarify some of the enforcement but that's the point I don't want it to become a police state we rely on enforcement so that being said the outdoor dining I don't want it to be a police state where all of a sudden you've got people going around with meters when John Diddy is out playing music at midnight um and and and you know cuz he's a good guy too so I don't I don't want our city to digress to that point I do think that a clear-cut way to prevent that is to maintain the existing requirement to vacate at midnight I think it's been misconstrued that the current requirement has businesses vacating their outdoor dining on Friday and Saturday night at midnight which are obviously the key nights so all we're talking about all this fuss is about selling beer outside from Midnight to 3:00 a.m. on those particular nights and I think you know anyone that actually is in Hospitality or anywhere else they can you know have drinks inside um I get it everybody likes and enjoys the outside I don't think any again would shut someone down for having smokers you know sitting outside on their patio smoking um I just feel that it's not a big ask having residents in a downtown Corp is key to the success of that downtown Corp and those residents you know we have to balance and those residents that moved into my places knew the ordinances when they moved in and the commercial tenants that least my places knew the ordinance when they moved in and that ordinance when they moved in had them shutting down their outdoor dining at midnight so this isn't anything new it's not a curfew that's that's being implemented by the city or that's being pushed by the residents all the residents are asking and again I don't even live in the downtown core I'm trying to be as objective as possible and balance the needs of my commercial tenants and the needs of my residential tenants and I think maintaining the requirement to vacate is critical to that every other aspect of the new ordinance I support thank you David Robinson my name is David Robinson I live at 351 Orangewood drive here in dun Eden and you have sworn me in I would like to thank you guys for your time and service again I appreciate you guys being here and hearing us all out uh I'm wearing a shirt by a local artist his name is yali and if you haven't heard of him he's an amazing resident of dun Eden he has uh made all of his money just about in dun Eden and a lot of it comes late at night after 11:00 on a patio uh until 3:00 a.m. this shirt reminds me of the Brotherhood and Sisterhood of this town I think somebody spoke to that earlier all right so quickly I Met George and Helen Courtney at the Duneden House of beer many years ago when the house of beer opened she was a bartender he was a patron they met they became in love they started a family they built a home and they built a business it's called reboot and it's located in the core downtown uh they have the right to remain open until 3:00 a.m. and they are on commercial property now currently if I go outside and I'm smoking and it's 10:59 at 11:00 I have to get up and put out that cigarette and go inside with my beer or I can throw out my beer and get off of that property or I can you know I guess leave and go to a different business and spend my money there like the house of beer I should not or they should not have to get penalized by these ordinances if I leave that bartender at reboot doesn't get my money anymore and Helen and George Courtney the owners of reboot are not getting any more in my money now there is one option and it's the options I currently been taking and that is let's say I take my beer inside and I think John Diddy alluded to that's not very safe somebody could put something in that drink while it's while I'm not attending it but I walk to a city sidewalk and in this case I've been walking across the street I believe that's Grant Street heading east to west there so I'm on the other side of the sidewalk and I'm directly in front of somebody's home smoking a cigarette then my friend comes and join and joins me and now we're smoking cigarettes on a public sidewalk in front of somebody's home now we're not standing there I don't want to be loitering but what we kind of do is we kind of do the the March of uh Strikers like a strikker March in front of it and we're talking and is that what you want us doing do you guys want us to be in front of the homes smoking cigarettes and talking or we could be back there enjoying our beer on the patio with our cigarettes in our beer thank you for your time and thank you for [Applause] listening Jade cybert which which cyber Jade just left okay uh John shine John shine 2117 Aberdine Street and uh so what I heard George say was 57 businesses in the CRA 16 are kind of cool so I did the math 41 are going to have a problem they have to fix the outdoor dining situation is that right George yes so what I heard was parking restrooms and 8ft fences what I keep hearing is noise is a problem but it's more of a symptom of a growing vibrant downtown if you want to blame somebody you got to blame the city that they did it they created a vibrant downtown not the businesses not the residents the city did it right the city makes many allowances for big developer special interests and the city's own interests where else would you put a 20,000 uh square foot whatever this is office right what I'm asking for you to do is to consider the impact of this ordinance on small businesses and on residents George had a great slide where it had a 8ot fence and some residents over here and some commercial properties over there we didn't become a vibrant downtown by regulating it we did it through incentives we did it through exceptions we did it through grants we did it through the C right all I'm asking for you to do is to take a look at that and say Reg ulation doesn't fix it all right it takes money it takes exceptions it takes expedited processes it takes allowances not every business is going to fit into that box that is this outdoor dining it doesn't work that way and if you think it can get done in three years that's Georgia's problem I guess but it's a lot of work for everyone to get done in 3 years really have to take look Beyond regulation you have to take a look at both the residents and the businesses you have to take a look at what the money is going to be how does that impact and you got to find the money to really do the right grants you've got to expedite the processes you got to have a law in place that allows for allowances and exceptions not everybody fits into the box what is the answer if you don't do that businesses go out of business our vibrant downtown becomes less than it is and for what for what for symptoms of a growing downtown that's having growing pains look at more than regulation you need to do more than just than you thank you Shannon Smith thank you Shannon Smith 1268 Bayshore Boulevard and I have been sworn uh I won't Echo the comments that Jo and Melissa made but I will go back as a member of the BRC that has been alluded to tonight and one of four resident members of the BRC three of which all uh are in opposition to removing the word vacate so in terms of those residents that spent a lot of time studying this issue the answer of removing vacate was something that three of the four were willing to be on record uh initially so outside of uh the areas that Melissa and Joe K specifically spoke to one element that we haven't talked about here is one thing this ordinance does is essentially create a new property right for outdoor dining uses our current ordinance has Provisions in it that says that it that an outdoor dining permit is not transferable quote in any manner and so the the idea was that when a new restaurant applicant came into town and wanted to open up something that involved outdoor dining they would go through the process of review at that particular point in time and it was not transferable much like a liquor license is not a transferable element from one bar owner to a new bar owner that opens up business the current ordinance is written will actually create a a new property right where the zoning letter that is designated by City staff not subject to review by other than City staff would create create a right to do outdoor activities until 3:00 a.m. in perpetuity not knowing the current owners if this was a a Tina and Javier if this was a Kim we're talking about people we don't know yet and this new ordinance revision will sort of remove the ability for the city to review and regulate those that come forward uh there will be an inherited right it creates a property uh right that is in transferable from our current businesses to others and I just think that's not good policy and I'd ask that you consider that as you think about what recommendations you would provide staff thank you thank you Bill [Applause] welen Bill Welden 656 Broadway I have been sworn in uh I just want to make one point that uh New York City does use a seaweed scale so a seaweed scale is coming to the rest of the country for noise uh um the other issue is fairness right when it comes outdoor dining so there's a bar that's kind of at the center of this on Scotland Street um the it sits right next to a home that bar was started in 2018 that home was built I believe Circa 1945 right so just like we did with the overlay we protected the smallest you know the most vulnerable in the South historic South District which is what our neighborhood it is um but it seems like with this when you want to remove the word vacate you're not protecting the city is not being consistent with what it did in the overlay project right for a home like that then you move 20 feet across the street to the business that I have managed for 20 years and have lived at for 26 years right so let's talk business to business we're we provide affordable housing and homes for retirees on fixed incomes people talk about moving no one's moving anywhere what is the right that that business is being granted over the business that I reside at and manage in other words you're going to give them rights they're going to infringe upon my ability to attract renters to a very desired place that provides uh we have a few people that work in the downtown a gentleman talked about you know there's people that uh they can't even live in the downtown we provide that many of you have been by our property you know it's a nice property so you know we need to be protected as well just like the overlay did I support leaving the word vacate in the ordinance to protect properties in our neighborhood like mine and the one right next to the bar that's been swok around thank you very [Applause] much Deb Williams thank you and Jason Williams so chair these are all the comment cards I have received for item 2B I would now open it up to any who would like to speak who have not filled out a comment card fill out a comment card sorry about that no worries my name is Jason cybert I live at 1756 Ranchwood Drive South in denen and I have been sworn in I think that water's wet and the sky is blue and that downtown denan is an mment District I think that it's pretty CL uh plain to see that that's uh been something that's going on for a long time and we've had a lot of people didn't want to call it that because it may not be a popular thing for half of the downtown I see a lot of people that oppose I would even say oppose I'd see a lot of people that have different opinions than me that I respect a great deal I've known Melissa for a long time that's my friend and I love her um and I I want to make sure that this issue is is settled but I want to make sure that denen doesn't forget that we're all here together and that we all do love each other we got to remember that and uh even though I would like to see the word vacate removed um I also want to make sure that uh we don't create a hostile environment one point that I'd like to make is that being a a bar owner of multiple bars I understand that my product is not my food my product is not my beer my product is not my liquor my product is my atmosphere and the outdoor is part of my atmosphere so you're limiting the ability for bars to to sell their product during that time at the most crucial and and the easiest time for them to sell that product I also understand the impact on people um and I understand that this is a tough situation and I don't envy you but uh I would like to make those points and I sure appreciate you listening thank you [Applause] is there anyone else hi uh my name is Elizabeth perz Kean I am a resident here in denan 10:30 Bluff Circle is my residence but I own Pisces have you been sworn in no I have not okay please raise your right hand do you swear the testimony you about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank um I spoke last time that you guys met and I set my piece and I was going to leave it there but I can't um I own Pisces the vacate it needs to be removed um it does affect us as a business and it's going to affect also employees and I said that last time we're putting a lot of weight on our employees with putting a curfew and if a lot of people don't want to call it a curfew but it is a curfew if you want people outside of a premises or outside of anywhere you put a curfew of 11:00 when somebody go to dine and let's say you go on vacation anywhere and I'll put this on the residence if you guys go on vacation anywhere and you sit down at a restaurant let it be 9:00 and they ask you you need to be finished with your entire meal by 11:00 and leave the premises will you go there again you won't go there again so the same thing is going to happen to us once again I close at 9 and I close at 10: during the weekend but you know what there is people that take a little bit of time let's say on the weekend I have a 45 minute wait and then the last person actually ends up sitting down at 10:00 that means that they only have an hour to eat before I actually have to escort them out of my premises that does not look good on me that does not look unded because you're only doing that to us okay you're doing it to every single business so that means that all the businesses or actually the all of the um vacationers are going to stay on the other side of the bridge in Clear Water the word's going to go around and say you know what it's not even worth it because we're not going to have a good time it's not it's Don need is not going to be the place to go anymore and the conversation is already happening because we're having this conversation because these issues are arising in our town that used to be a place where people used to come and have fun it's already happening and we see it as business owners believe me our business have dropped people are not coming over here anymore as they used to so that means that people are heing these conversations and it's going to get worse so guess what please Google anywhere or check history where people have put a vacate or a curfew into a town and see what happens to that town I urge you to do that as residents as well because believe me I'm a Donan resident and I love how much value my property have gain just because the is what is thean so when you have a GES down your property value goes down and us as business owners we are trying to keep everything alive we're trying to keep businesses or um vacationers coming into our town we spend our own money advertising for denan so all I ask is please remove that from there because it's going to cause more problems than why you get things for our res for our businesses and our employees as well thank you thank you is there anyone else hi Jason Williams again 1986 braymore Drive uh you did swear me in earlier um I hear and everybody speak today I kept thinking of these different issues and one of the thing that resounded real loudly with me is I have I have three kids now one of them is a baby I've been sitting out there with the entire time you guys been hearing or squealing and stuff but I made sure to stay for this because kids to me is the biggest thing in our city right now and I brought this up in another meeting we had is the average age of the person in done Eden is 58 years old who resides here we have no Generations is coming up and if you put the restrictions on there or regulations that restrict growth from kids or or people in their 20s coming and working here they can't afford to live here and now they're going to go somewhere else they're going to eat somewhere else they're going to drink somewhere else it's just not going to happen for us to have a an influx of Youth anymore so uh I ask you please just vacate this so that we can or remove the vacate so that we can continue and regrow the youth that it was in this area thank you thank [Applause] you is there anyone else hi Lisa San Petro Ren 968 Emerson drop and no I was not sored in because I wasn't planning on talking thank you right hand do you swear the testimony you're about to give in this proceeding is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth it is I do hi everybody my name is l s Petro Ren I know a few of you guys recognize me as I've lived here since 1988 I have worked in downtown D Eden since 1999 at a very core of downtown D Ed it as of March 29th 2024 I am finally after 36 years of living in Den Eden a proud property owner it took me all this time to buy my house in this state in this [Applause] city with my loving husband that's smart sitting outside I spent 25 plus years working in the hospitality business in downtown dun Eden to help get me to the point financially that I could afford to buy a house in this city and that also got me to owning my own business in this city might be a small one but I finally got there all because of working at Kelly's Restaurant now crown and bull from 7:00 a.m. in the morning until 2:00 in the afternoon going home taking a shower and going right back to working at what used to be chickaboom room from 600 p.m. till midnight I was there when we had to put in The Sound Ordnance for 11:00 to stop the loud the live music outside I was there when we moved it inside to blur after Virgil and Cath bought it and turned it into blur I've been here for every single one of these sound ordinances if it wasn't for us being able to stay open and have that live not music but camaraderie outside I wouldn't have the finances to stay in this city I wouldn't have the finances to raise my son who is now going to USF on that dime and keeping the money in the state I wouldn't have had the money to buy my house nor start my own business owning a house renting a house in this anywhere doesn't have to be in dun Eden if you have let's be honest we've all had parties before at our house when we were renting kids whatever you went to your neighbor and you knocked on the door you put a note on all the little neighbors next to you and said hey guess what we're going to have a party tonight before you call the cops on us for being too loud can you just come over and let us know that we're being too loud we'll bring on the noise when did neighborly love stop going from we're going to be polite and ask before we just jump on everybody's back I'm not saying that being loud outside at past 11: or past 3:00 a.m. is all I'm stating is why is all the financial burden falling on the business if I live downtown which by the way I used to live on President's Street with a 2-year-old my favorite part of living there was listening to the outside noise because it meant that I was still a part of this town thank you thank you is there anyone else thank you George any clarifications you want to add uh thank you Mr chairman um so just just a reminder to the board I know there was a question about the zoning categories that this particular proposal would fall to and this is that listing there are 1 two 3 4 five 67 outside of the downtown uh with the number of parcels um that would exceed the parcels that are in the downtown so this does apply to all of these properties should they choose a bar or restaurant use this would be subordinate to a bar or restaurant use I want to make that clarification very quickly on the BTR um we we typically can't use a BTR as a regulating document so we need the codified ordinance to be able to pursue an enforcement action if one is needed um I think the uh there are I know there was a question about what constitutes an outdoor dining area those are provided for in those definitions that precede each of those sections um I think I heard a comment about signage and on umbrellas uh well not just that but the entirety of section 107 32.3 and what we'll do is before Thursday we'll look at each of those provisions and provide the purpose behind that that that particular provision and those are carried over from the existing regulations just so you know they are in the existing uh existing ordinance a question on the number of permits uh in the downtown we do have 16 that have an existing permit roughly 30 uh uh would be subject to that so it's about 14 as the spread on that um and I would say that the reg from a um just from a a professional perspective this is a lot less restrictive than what is currently in place from from a commercial standpoint uh finally I think I heard something on the transferability um we just frankly didn't see a need to uh require a new home own or new business owner to come in and and receive a rubber stamp on the same per that the the previous owner might have had as long Our concern obviously from a city perspective is life safety and health if the parking is there if the um bathrooms are there if the means of egress is there and that was originally approved we just didn't see a reason for to bring somebody back in to have that same plan reapproved again if that plan changes or if it's expanded then that property owner would be responsible for coming in and grabbing that per new permit um so I I I think that gets it unless I missed anything there there was an additional uh if I may Mr chair the the um the outdoor dining the furniture the if they have the Torches or whatever that's in case there's a hurricane when we go under Hurricane Warning so we wouldn't require the removal much the same way that right now living room has all their furniture they secure it it's still um out and in place and in fact the the multif family adjacent would have to remove theirs as well so construction sites have to remove unload their roofs and so on and so forth so it's just it's a function of a storm approaching should you clarify that and it's in there okay but I mean evidently they didn't understand Mr cman said do I have to run out every night and that is under Emery situation it is in it's in the ordinance and it's clear yes yeah so we re clarified we've Rec clarified yes thank you members comments thoughts I um I've got some comments you want to go go ahead um well first of all I I thought the lady was very interesting about uh you know should this just be the downtown and then I wanted to ask J ER though I think that do you have complaints on Alt 19 and at the beach I mean are there noise complaints it's not just downtown well I think that that the fact that the ordinance is Citywide and the reason for that is that there are outdoor dining areas that are non-conforming right now outside the downtown and so so there are other areas that receive complaints and that you right P police yes um you know H I don't know if Hunter went home but you know Hunter I wish I could stay up till 4:00 a.m. no those days are gone for me but uh I did hear that and you know I think the bottom line and Melissa you know I feel bad I mean I I don't know how you how you I mean I'm going to vote to to vacate that but I do feel her pain I mean she's right across the street I mean right across the street is that where you put up the 8 foot fence and and the people do they have an 8ot fence well I mean do they put up an 8ot fence would that bring the sound buffer it back no discussion here please I I don't I mean I'm just asking I'm just saying you know that that's that's a hard one but there when you're really AB budding residential you're going to have to look at that and I don't know the answers I I would just say to the commission you know each of these are going to be unique as they come in it's going to be about them identifying those areas and then hitting those but there are so many factors that go into how these are permitted I it's it's even it's very difficult to explain so it's a it's a product of the size of the lot it's a product of the function you know function of the lot where the where the outdoor dining area will be located uh and then what rules then would apply so in that instance where I think a a home is across the street you're not going to have an 8ot fence in the front yard facing the right of way so but there would be a sound potentially there's a sound attenuation plan that's required as part of that and and can sound attenuation how how how much more can we do with that I mean I think that's really important the baffling the the direction of sound we've we've talked about it up here I mean I think we're missing something in I was just I would just say those are things that aren't in the current ordinance that are coming in with the new ordinance so the requirement for a sound attenuation plan isn't in the current ordinance it is but it is you are going to address it and be more aware of sound attenuation that's that's correct y um so you know Bill I mean you goodness knows a and C we've gone round and round I don't know I mean I don't know if things have changed I don't know I don't know A and C C is the Boom the boom box so you know but I I hear you Bill I mean I've been hearing you on that one Kim uh I she probably left but thank God that someone was happy tonight because they put wood in the ordinance so you know I'm I I'm always happy when I see someone happy and you know I've I've thought and thought about this and you know my husband said don't wax poetic but I can't help myself so you know I sort of feel like we have two golden geese because you're all golden geese you know you've got the music industry and the restaurant industry and the lodgic you're a Golden Goose but your residents they're golden geese too they're all part of the the the quantum Spirit of deden to Golden geese and somehow those geese have to get together and have goslings I mean you've got to get it together and work it because you're both so important you can't x one you can't throw out one you're both so important to to what makes us special and I think Mr cyber talked to that you know I think Joe cookaka said just let's work together and that's the bottom line not someone wins someone loses but let's work together we're a community don't kill the golden geese because you're both golden geese so and they need each other and you need each other thank you I can't wax quite as poetic as but uh first I do want to thank everyone for all their comments tonight it was very helpful to see you know how people feel and it it reinforces a lot of the reasons I moved to this community uh which is pretty nice I also want to really Express thank you to Jennifer and to George uh as Kimberly said this has been a two-year process on the task force and the BRC to get to this point and done a great job I think taking the feedback the differing perspectives and trying to weave that into a code that that's viable going forward um Tina mentioned you know we're all the beneficiaries of those who came before us who help make this community what it is today uh a rising tide does lift all boats and that happened by us all working together the strength of this community is a reflection of how well we appreciate each other we respect each other and we value the community and that we value each other a lot of problems are preventable if we respect and value each other um but we do need rules uh as well and I think this code as proposed has addressed a lot of challenging issues um the new code does Ensure business are going to meet parking and bathroom requirements which in many ways is going to be self-regulating self-limiting okay uh it allows business more flexibility around fencing and other means to try to attenuate noise to protect their neighbors those weren't there before there were limitations uh the DRP burden um is loosened so the city can help businesses move more quickly but large venues still need to go through the design review process so that's protection there um the BRC committee also shared best practices to help make entertainers accountable for noise citations um the city also heard us talked about providing more enforcement on nights and weekends so it's in our best interest to realize that our right to freedom and enjoyment uh generally stops at the the point that it impacts others freedom and enjoyment and so we need to respect each other we are part of a community we live and work next to each other if we do respect each other that'll prevent a lot of the problems when we don't conflict arises and I think we've heard some of that tonight so I think moving uh forward with this code uh will help ensure our businesses are healthy it'll give them the ability to go forward I think the noise ordinance another uh means codes are able to protect us if we use them properly and so uh at this point I think this was work well done and I would like to make a motion that we move forward with 2324 uh as Pro um as proposed with the addition of the two ideas uh George that you had up there about adding wood to the fencing and changing uh the sound attenuation wording I'll second other comments once again I want to thank everybody for coming out tonight and and voicing your opinions and uh sharing your stories uh of deden and what brought you here and why you're still here and why it's so important to you um Deborah I want to see the goslings okay um you know this is taken this is going to take a lot of work and we need to work together and and that's what we do is we work together we it it's important that we respect each other as we go through this process and we will because we are Den even Dennis in 1971 thank you in 1971 was coming up from Miami we went through downtown St Petersburg my brother and I we said wow this is really dead it was about six o'clock at night and it was in June there was nothing let's keep on going and we stumbled across dun Eden we don't want 1971 in downtown dun Eden we truly don't because it made St Petersburg look Lively I've been here living as a resident since we moved from Safety Harbor in 3 since 1993 so I've seen downtown grow I've seen a lot of changes in downtown I do have a question and one of the main things we were talking about or people were talking about was the 11:00 vacate issue do we have do we know how many people in hospitality industry work in downtown dun Eden and do we know any amount of impact economic impact that vacating at 11:00 would have and if we don't should we before we make a decision thank you we have a motion it has been second all favor I I all opposed I the eyes have it and I thank everyone for coming we all been good citizens [Applause] [Music]