##VIDEO ID:A4AHPT2JGWY## e e e United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation it's both liberty and justice Mrs Ro here Mr White here Mr Winnington here mayor protm Steinberg here the agenda for today second Motion in a second all in favor I hi fire department requests to increase per call rates in officer salaries Jennifer can you give us some background please absolutely uh good morning mayor and mayor proem Steinberg and city council um this meeting is a followup to um a new business item at the regular November meeting um it was discussed at that time to gather some more information um to use as um comparables for other uh fire departments um we talked at that time about um the fire department's request to increase the per call wages and officer salaries um right now the only um officer receiving compensation is the fire chief um the requests would include um compensation for an increased comp compensation for the fire chief and then compensation for the assistant Chiefs and the fire department president um the current pay per call is $10 the fire department is proposing a pay per call um with the hopes of incentivizing better response for members under their proposal um the minimum response percentage to qualify for Pay Per call is 10% and then they've laid out if a firefighter responds to 10 to 19% of calls payment would be $10 if a firefighter would respond to 20% to 29% of calls the pay per call would increase the $15 and then if a firefighter responds to 30% to 39% of calls the payment per call is $20 and then finally if a firefighter responds to 40% or more of the calls payment per call would be $25 um they're also proposing that a fire or rescue call lasting longer than 60 Minutes um would result in Personnel being compensated at $25 per hour instead of just of the one um $10 per call um we also talked at that meeting about uh the fire department's recommendation to look at possibly increasing the uh fire rescue charge and we are in the process of collecting that data and we'll bring that back uh for the council's review um at the uh December meeting um for adoption January 1st or at the January meeting um so there was some information that was included with your packet at the regular November meeting and then since that time um I've worked with the Minnesota Valley Council governments um one of the things that we contract with them for is help in in situations like this they can help um send out requests for data and so I'd ask for um the per call uh pay and then officer pay for other fire departments and I have two different surveys the first one has a smaller jurisdiction so I think like the largest one is Lakefield and that's at 1,735 for population and down um but you can see where they're sitting for pay and and a lot of it is um you'll see $10 um there's some that are a little bit higher um $25 $15 um $13 um so it's just kind of it it varies um I guess there's really no specific depending on population size it's this much so it kind of gives you an idea even with smaller communities um what the perol rate is and then as far as the chief assistant chief secretary and training officers and so forth um that's laid out as well and then on the next uh page there were I think 28 cities contacted and unfortunately only the cities represented here in the spreadsheet responded um so we've got 1 two 3 four five seven here it looks like right six six cities um and Let's see we got Eagle L ours is $10 Jamesville $10 for per call um then we've got one at $11 Lake Crystal is $12 per hour um Canon Falls lever 11 and 13 respectively so definitely on the I guess the low end of those cities that responded on the per call pay um and then each each Department's a little bit different how they structure their perol training meeting so forth we have $10 for the call the training the meetings and some cities have a little bit different structure um and then if you go a little further to the right you'll see fire chief pay assistant chief training officers and so forth um right now Eagle AES fire chief is at 4,800 um and you know there's some that are below that um or some that are above that and as I mentioned before we don't currently pay anything for the assistant chief and it looks like the other cities responding all have some sort of compensation for the assistant Chiefs and then um it's not um quite as frequent but then some of the other cities it just varies on whether or not they compensate training officers Captain secretary so forth so I guess um based on the information that we've gathered I don't think what our fire department is requesting is out of line um as we saw this morning with the this morning's fire call you know we do appreciate them quickly responding um to calls and they're very important they play an important role and it's getting harder and harder to find people that are available and especially being a community um so close to mano and most of our department members work outside of Eagle Lake um you know it's just really important that we also take to consideration um daytime rescue and making sure that we are making it um you know worth their while as well so um I know there's a lot of information in front of you here but I guess my takeaway is I don't think what they're asking is out of line I don't see other departments here um that show the same structure as what they're requesting but I think it does make sense I think that they are um you know on the right track about what can we do to encourage our members to respond and in and incentivize them and on the budget side we do have money plugged in so whatever um has been is being requested here we factor that into the budget when it was adopted uh for January 1st 2024 um they don't get paid until December so um you know that's another discussion item we'll have to have is if you want this to be effective for 2024 calls or if we want to you know make it effective starting with 2025 but if you do decide to make it effective for 2024 we um do have money in the budget to reflect the increase um so with that I'll take any questions and do the best I can I was out of the office last week as you guys know so um haven't had a chance to really um you know reach out to the cities that didn't respond but I think what we have in front of us is should be helpful um give you an idea of where we're sitting compared to other departments so it looks like the other City might not do that terrorist um kind of call pay where it's $10 and the percentage breakdown there's none that do that I didn't see that that's just a thing that they develop for Eagle a only it looks like it I didn't see that reflected any of the survey findings Jennifer can you confirm that they get paid monthly or annually annually so um the fire chief currently is the only um officer that gets paid and he gets paid um is it by monthly car he gets paid mon monthly okay so when it says monthly on here that's the fire chief that's getting paid monthly not everybody okay that's right and then it's the usually the first payroll in December that the department gets paid um and they turn in their calls to um Carrie and then she processes it so is is Carrie going have to figure out these percentages or are they going to do it for her or how is that going to work probably Carrie's going to have to do it and she actually already was working on um a spreadsheet to be able to do that so I think yeah I just worri it just the tracking might be difficult tracking is GNA yeah what I want to do if I may is get this spreadsheet created get it locked down so they can only do check boxes for the calls that people the date of the calls and the ones that they did everything else would autom po because they have to get you the data with how many calls they'd go on regardless so it should automatically populate that we had 500 calls for the year they did how many and it calculates that for them right if the spreadsheet yes if it works how it should how are you going to know though once they get to if a call goes over an hour their pay automatically goes to 25 say that again I'm sorry right because they're also proposing that if the call goes past 60 Minutes that all those calls earn 25 an hour so it's going to have to be on those sheets that they give Carrie to know they'd have to highlight yeah who how long people are there and so maybe there's some of those things that maybe we want to maybe that's something where let's just hold off on that part this this time around and because so it isn't so much going on I can tell you when we were meeting with them from the Personnel standpoint they were very much in favor of this tiered system um it's unlike what anyone else is doing but they're hopeful that it gets more retention and more people coming to more calls um especially those that are on that lower bubble of they want more money but they don't want to go to the calls um so I can support that if it works counting wise for Carrie um I just worry on that that next piece up how that's going to complicate things to a whole another level there isn't a requirement already that you have to attend X number of calls if you're if you're an unlisted member on the fire department there is the policy does have certain requirements they have to meet for trainings and and calls um but it's I think it's um you know it's not enough that I think they just feel like they want to do something and try to encourage more participation what we have currently you know isn't isn't doing in it yeah and and they also mentioned that they wanted to show the appreciation to those that are hitting that um you know 30% or higher calls that are consistently doing it not a whole lot different but sh that I guess I at the same at the same time if you go more you're get get paid more correct you know you know and that's I think you guys raised some really good points and um ask some good questions and you know just because of what what you have in front of you um the proposals you don't have to approve everything you can kind of pick and choose and maybe do those you know make modify a little bit um to begin with and evaluate and um you know look at making additional changes later on there's nothing wrong with that do do you do you think that more people will attend calls then if the money goes up I mean is that that's basically what they're getting at right that's what they're hoping I just am troubled about a little bit by that because I wonder do people pick and choose which calls they want to go on or what I I'm just trying to understand yeah so like okay well there's so today there's a fire call but I'm I'm I'm going to skip this one but tomorrow there's a fire call and our pay goes up for more fire calls and now we're having 100% turnout for all fire calls which is probably what they want right I just I guess I get conf I just I'm I'm a little confused call me naive if you want but it just the mathematics kind of sounds confusing to me and then if there's not a policy saying that you need to be at X number of calls can I mean I guess I I don't know I'm I don't want to say it to get in trouble by I don't want to say what I'm thinking because I might not say it right well I I would assume that most firefighters do it just to be a firefighter not that's what I was thinking yeah so is that is the Tariff pay going to change whether I know that I know they've thought about all this I know they've talked about all this I know that you guys talked with Personnel but I'm just kind of asking some questions out loud like you know I mean is that going to is is that going to change call or turnout I think they're hoping it it does but there's no guarantees so I don't know if we'd do it and then take a look at the end of next year to see if it made any adjustments or or you know things like that um but you know I think a lot of the times when they don't come they're not in town right so like right now probably 90% of our firefighters are at work um so and the weekends if you're not here those kind of things I think that's a lot of the times what and I think the only requirements they have are like training and things like that um that they have to attend um but not the number of calls I don't think would it be easier to just have across the board payment and say like well take an average of all that and just say well because the percentage will automatically get rid of itself by people electing or not electing to go to certain calls right that's kind of what I'm getting at is just keep it simple and say like it's 1750 an hour and then you choose whatever I I guess you choose whatever call if there's a call here I'll choose to go on that call or if there I or we go like 18 an hour and if it's over the hour it's 25 an hour to make it easy or do we not do an over hour don't think I don't know again I'm not trying to say anything I'm I'm very grateful for what the fire department is doing I just don't want to be carries has a lot of components in this too you know here uh well as long as she gets the data it's not going to be a huge right so once you get the spreadsheet down and the if they send the data it's Plug and Play right so it'll do the calculations at the same time I I'm not opposed to trying it for year you know yeah but I just to me if you go to more calls you're going to get paid more well and that's why if like you go to 20 calls and the pay is at $18 an hour and if you go versus going to seven calls at $8 an hour you're getting paid more so are we looking at two different things too we looking at our hourly pay and then are we looking at our um long-term goal you know our longterm goal of keeping them here too right well I think the longterm goal we already increase that amount didn't we last meeting I mean looking at the sheet here it looks like it looks like an increase to $25 an hour is higher than every single other no I'm saying like the pension is what I'm talking like you know if with that increase of pension does that help keep people on the department if you're thinking in a big picture reality long long term looking at the Sur data from the other communities um with trainings uh meetings you know that's another thing we should look at too because um right now the it's you know $10 across the board um does the council feel it should be you know a different rate for trainings versus calls um there's a lot to unpack here so you know that's um and it doesn't all have to be decide right now and you know thinking about it more too looking at the $25 per hour if a call lasts more than 60 Minutes um you know I think that's totally reasonable to wait until 2025 with that one since we're not even looking at increasing the fire call charge until 2025 um I think that's that would make the most sense otherwise we're increasing that we haven't adjusted our what we're charging people I think in my opinion if you're doing something with the fire you get paid the same no matter what you're doing is it training is just as important as put okay well honestly we hope to have false alarms versus an actual fire but it's not their fault that it was a false ver actual so I think got to ease too out of all of it ease learning all that I'm on board with Anthony should be the same so do we want to split this into kind of two motions one is the pay for the fire chief and that and then the hourly stuff so we can move forward on some but not all look to you I think that might be a good idea I'm looking at the data on in the small towns and I'm seeing that you know like for example good Thunder is $20 per hour for trainings meetings uh and per call you know and so but then I see like Lamberton has vary $17.50 per call I wonder if the varying thing is if they have one of those terrorist tier level type things of X number of people per call you know so basically I'm seeing that like a lot of these cities are the high end is 20 you know in a middle I'm not I think that raising the per call pay is a fine thing I don't I just I I think that that's a good you know I think that's a uh a good request I think I mean I think that the retirement is a perk right and the um I don't know I'm I I see that going back to the other subject of the officer pay I think that that's a that's a completely normal ask based on this data that's in this um on these sheets here you know like the you know lever's fire chief has $110,000 per year the assistant chief is 2,000 our assistant chief is zero and we don't have anything for that other person so I think that like John was saying we could split the motion perhaps into two um you know uh or just determine a maybe ask the fire department again what they would think about instead of doing the terrist per call hour see what they would recommend just for a flat rate per hour and make sure also with that I appreciate that um when I just heard some numbers being thrown out here if we going to jump from $10 to $20 just as a hypothetical I would want to make sure we run the numbers to make sure we can we can absorb that because I think um you know based on the scenarios that they run ran were based on our past call um numbers and you know we might be a little bit over our head if we don't run the numbers and just make sure we can actually um compensate them at that higher rate compensate pce this year where you go from 10 14 and then for 2025 we're at8 you know 1800 whatever we want to do like is that an option because we didn't well we didn't budget for it for 2025 though either well I think I think I think it'd be reasonable to jump from a 10 to 15 if you're going to do a crossboard I think going 10 to 20 I mean that's a huge inrease that's that's a lot right I think incremental increases are okay especially if you're going to go across the board but again we might if we're going to change things up we probably want to run some numbers do our numbers are they okay 6000 yeah that we're totally fine with for the officer pay I was just looking and Trent sent me some information late last night it looks like right now they're at about 347 for call volume year to date and I was going to look at let's see so basically that's a call per day all make a motion to increase the fire chief to 6,000 per year the assistant chief and presid okay we have a motion I'll second that motion in a second all in favor of that motion I I so for the for the send it back Jennifer what what is question would they all get paid in the monthly oh orn I mean TR or burn is already monthly I don't think there' be anything wrong with paying the monthly r i mean I'm just saying I don't same do you want to amend your motion to saying that the assistant chief and president will be getting paid monthly just like the fire chief okay I'm good with that Amendment okay we motion and a second on that Amendment all in favor I the motion passes for the amended pay to be monthly now on to the discussion of the hourly pay my thought would be is is that we should maybe task the fire department um with developing an hourly pay rate you know and and ease into something instead of adopting a complicated structure right away uh and not knowing what like what Jennifer just had mentioned about the uh where the budget would be and running more numbers perhaps uh Jennifer what what would you say the best time of the year for a request like that is anyways sorry I'm trying to look at their call volume here I like I said I just got this late last night I was trying to look make sure I have the right the request well she's looking at that as a Personnel committee we met with them regarding this request several months ago so it's not like it just came to us end the year hey we're getting our pay coming up we want to make this change we met with them several months ago I can't speak to the delay in between I think there's been a lot going on especially internally with Staffing shortages in our front office too um so I I don't know where the delay in there came um but it wasn't something that just randomly came up right if that's what you're asking yeah that's what kind of what I'm asking I'm sorry could you repeat your question again I was I'm trying to digest a lot of information here basically answered it um my my concern you know there's we're at the end of the year pay and to to I won say we make it retroactive but being that we pay at the end of the year they've all been assuming they're getting $10 an hour and then all of a sudden bump them up at the end of the year we've not bumped any other department or any other volunteer board or anything up at the end of the year D especially doubling it um not that they aren't deserving of it or anything but that shows that that's they're not doing it for pay just like we're not doing it for Pay Here Right so is there what can the budget allow and is it like we've done in all of our other department where we where we have to teer them we have to say you're this this year this next year and that the following year or can we make that big of a jump in one year especially when we didn't budget for it for 2024 or 2025 I'm trying to make sense of their calls here with the information I got last night and then we have to make a easier streamlined piece because if you're struggling making sense of the calls caring needs it very clear to know what people are being paid and it seems like that's not always happening between that and the billing portion um so I think there's additional piece we need to talk about and adding that percentage thing is just going to make it even much more confusing if it already is confusing I guess my problem not problem I guess my thought is is that um actually I'm not going to say my thought Jennifer do you have any idea what the budget could absorb this year for uh increase in Pay yeah that's based on the information that we had met with the Personnel Committee in Trent based on what they were proposing based on 25 though right no we had it in 2024 we had had those numbers I I'm going to have to go grab my budget guys um one let me go grab it I was trying to find so the the officer pay is that's accounted for yeah um the uh calls according to Trent based on um you know their past called D and what is proposed he worked out I think he has it in his information here actually it might be in the last in our last um yeah so he had in well you probably don't have your information from the last meeting with you but he had had the um based on like the p $10 per pay costs on their um 21 22 23 data and then below that with a proposal what it would increase to and So based on um what we were looking at I think he was projecting about uh let's see where are we at 18,000 um and I'll go grab my budget here once second here my computer let's see but I yeah I had confirmed that the last meeting too that we based on the numbers that he had presented me with that we were still with and what was budgeted okay so if we met in the middle and didn't go high on the calls that are at 40% it should still in theory stay around that same amount yeah and that we may you know I don't know cuz I haven't talked to Trent about that or had him run those numbers um I think he's he's going on our averages from you know the last couple years and what people have responded to as far as the response rate but are you talking about doing a flat number again is that what you guys are discussing I think that's what's looking at pealing especially with Carrie doing the book work and not getting you know I I just I worry the mess that it could be at the end of the year if they're not being very clean with is it a question of is there's way too many calls now and we need more Personnel what are you no I think the problem that I've heard from them before um is that during the day most of the people work outside of Eagle Lake and so trying to incentivize them to be able to respond to calls you know but if they're outside of Eagle Lake they're already outside of Eagle Lake but they might be within a response time that they can get back and help I mean I think that's that's a challenge you know maybe from the questions you guys raising I I wonder if maybe we shouldn't table this and talk to the fire department because I I don't have the answers to all these question I I think we should look for a motion to table this so moves we got a motion second second all in favor I motion is tabled and uh we will now look to have a motion for adjournment Garrett before you adjourn I just like to make a comment that we need to do something or or put some pressure on them to make sure they're getting the billing to carry in a more timely manner um it sounded at the last meeting Vern made the comment that it was posted that night and everything was closed out you can get it on the site Carrie shouldn't have to go and dig calls they should be sending it to her and maybe that's what's happening but it doesn't seem like that is so I think they need to be tasked that they have to get her that data and that stuff within a certain allotted time car call when would you like that d um at the very minimum I would say A you know I think that would be reasonable till the month end I don't know what would work on I'm willing to work right you know is it days 10 days after the month well I think you also have to look at like insurance companies I mean I know it goes on and on but like as if something happened with me I don't want to wait two months to get a bill I want my bills all pretty yeah yes we've had those same conversations a great point that the sooner you can get it built they appreciate that too people just want to get things wrapped up yeah so absolutely we I guess for me I don't I think it needs to work within what you guys and the department I don't think it should be any more than monthly or any less than monthly I think if not even every two weeks but I'm leaving that to you guys it was just more of an observation from the last meeting that Carrie shouldn't be having to go out and pull that information they should be submitting it to her you think by the next day if they if they already post it to do you know what website they're or what they're talking about a portal I don't know what that is either oh okay yeah then it should be in a very timely fashion we'll we'll talk to them and they just I don't need it phally you know you just need digital yep and just to be clear if it's okay uh mayor proem and city council could we just kind of list out the things just to make sure so we have a good use of your time next time the following information that you guys would like to have when we revisit this again you would like to see um you know what I I just need a little bit more Direction seems like there there's a lot to unpack here with what they're proposing is it a work do we have a okay a work session and they were I assume they were going to be here this morning right I assume unfortunate with what happened y i you know I'm sure you know if they were to explain it perhaps the whole thing would make a whole bunch more sense you know I mean but we're just you know none of us are fire department firefighters right so we want to try our best to I think tabling it is allowing us to understand what their situation is the best right especially since they weren't able to make it today we're of support of what they do and um to understand better would probably make more sense for a work session otherwise we might have I mean my questions that's why I didn't ask some of them because I don't necessarily know all of the answers to what what I might be wondering you know so I think that um a work session with Trent and Vern or maybe some other members of the fire department would would be more beneficial for this kind of a meeting right do we want to um well that and do does Carrie want like something in in a motion for them to get items to you on in a timely fashion or or is that not something we can do conversation yeah I don't know you think that's part of the F that's part of the future conversation okay we don't know what's reasonable for them yeah I mean what seems reasonable to me is when you're done you send it to everybody but so so are we St keeping 2024 pay how it is since you guys paid them the first week in December I think what to me that's the safest way to go and then if you guys want to go and do something retroactive we could look at doing that but um it just doesn't yeah I've got a lot of thoughts in my head about there's just a lot of different um variables here but um I I do think you know the more I think about this the um you know the tiered structure is to incentivize members and I don't know that doing a flat rate is going to is is going to accomplish the goal of the fire department when we initially met with them it was to try to incentivize people and if all of a sudden everybody gets a flat rate I'm just thinking about different things and it like you said we'll get the input of the fire department I don't know that that's necessarily going to set out to accomplish what they were seeking to do well I think we already have the 2025 number right so we need to fit within that budget that you've already in there so so since we're not on a December schedule now can we just do the work session after the next meeting do we have or do we need to schedule another could that be something that we do in the new year I think that' be I can talk to the department I can always the only reason I was saying was December is it's all fresh in herbine to just keep it going before it's like okay wait what did we talk about everybody go back to your notes and remember but I'm fine with whatever it would be nice to get it done look at um Monday December 9th we can talk about it more later I can talk to the fire department but that would be directly the week following our regular council meeting before we get into the really the thick of the holidays so anything after that I think is going to you might not have everybody's attention getting closer to the end of the month okay so we'll determine that date as we see fit Jennifer yep right sounds good okay we'll look for a motion to adjourn the meeting second motion and a second all in favor all motion carries meeting's closed for