##VIDEO ID:Ohxq5DEmcGM## I'll get the button pushed here oh you door I think I've seen that one before but I don't know yeah I've seen this one a couple of times I don't know okay we got a green light we're ready to go well good morning everybody uh this is Thursday October 10th 2024 uh it is 7:35 a.m. and this is the meeting of the adanta Housing and Redevelopment Authority uh for this particular date and um We are continuing to do our meetings on a hybrid sort of fashion whether it's at the city council level or the HRA level you can participate today in community comment there is no public hearing matter today in which you can participate uh the call numbers will come up on the screen here if you want to call in and let folks know that you'd like to speak to the uh HRA on a matter of concern to you that's not on the agenda today or otherwise scheduled for a future public hearing and uh so feel free to call in and we'll be taking up those Community comments uh right at the front end of the meeting so make sure you get this information we'll put it back up on the screen but get it uh down if you can uh having provided that information I'm going to call the meeting to order and ask uh Jennifer benat to call the rooll good morning commissioner Jackson here commissioner Pierce here commissioner agnu here chair huband here and commissioner Risser is not here at this time all right thank you and I'm look looking at the agenda it says pledge of and I think I know what that means uh Pledge of Allegiance like pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all and we have a form of meeting agenda in front of us that's been published and um I think there's a a good recommendation here from the staff that we we switch items 8.1 and 8.2 so 8.2 would go first it makes more sense from a sequential standpoint I think based on what conversations we've had in the past both uh both sitting as the HRA and the city council uh so uh would someone care to make a motion to approve the agenda with the uh switching of the recommended order in 8.1 and 8.2 so moved second commissioner Jackson moves commissioner Pierce seconds the adoption of the meeting agenda switching items 8.1 and 8.2 for in sequence any further discussion all those in favor of adoption of the meeting agenda stated say I I I opposed carried uh now we are at Community comment let's have those numbers go back up on the screen if possible and then is there anyone in the audience that wishes to address the H on a matter of concern to them matter that's not otherwise on the agenda scheduled for a future public hearing okay nobody coming forward we have anybody online I don't have anyone online yet but because there is a slight delay in the broadcast I would recommend we wait one minute before moving on my clock shows that it's 7:35 so I'll come back to you at 7:36 or when I have a call or whichever is first thank you e it is now 7:36 and I still don't have a caller so I think it's safe for you to move forward with the agenda all right very good thank you director benat um following Community comment we usually have our executive director responded to community comments that were made the week uh the prior meeting excuse me not the week before but the prior meeting and there were no Community comments at the prior h meeting so we'll just move forward from there with the consent agenda items is there anyone on the H any any commissioner who wishes to remove an item from the consent agenda if not I'll entertain a motion to adopt the items on the consent agenda and a single motion so moved second commissioner Jackson moves commissioner Pierce seconds the adoption of the items on the consent agenda in a single motion any further discussion all those in favor of adoption of the items on the consent agenda and a single motion say I I I oppos carried uh all those items are adopted on the consent agenda that are part of the consent agenda uh and now we're going to get to the heart of the meeting this morning and that is um uh in the reports and recommendations portion of the agenda and the uh first matter we're going to hear about is the um 8.2 reversed with 8.1 uh makes more sense sequentially I think to talk about this too um uh first and that is uh we had a discussion uh in the past about um our past city council meeting about uh what what could we do at that Macy's Home Store site we've got an approved project there but what are the other possibilities uh at that site if we didn't use Tiff or just use Tiff to a lesser degree so I think um I'm going to turn now to our economic development manager Bill neindorf and have him lead out this discussion yes good morning Bill narf the city's economic development manager uh this morning we wanted to um have further discussions about the use of tax increment financing uh on the Macy's furniture site over at 7235 France Avenue um so we don't have any I don't have any new information for you this morning um but I just wanted to set the stage uh uh the developer Patrick Brahma with Enclave companies is here with us this morning and here he's prepared to respond to several questions that have been posed to him over the last couple weeks about his proposals so I'll just set the stage um uh the image on the slide uh is the current site uh 8 acre parcel built in 1977 currently used as the as the Macy's Furniture Store uh that's a use that does continue today and the intention is that they would sell the property relocate to another location in in A din renovate that property and free up this site so it's a multi-step phase just to get to groundbreaking for this new project we've got to move this business and and these operations first so there's there's some time involved in this one uh the project itself is is led by Enclave companies um and one of their Partners is lifestyle communities so as you'll recall the site is split into four different buildings and there's three different Lots the Northwest building which which is the mixed use the two buildings on the East which are predominantly residential with a little cafe on one of the um one of the corners and then the southwestern building is is a more intensive mixed use high-rise since the sites being split into these three different elements um as we prepare our our Redevelopment agreements our our contracts essentially uh we started getting into it and realized that we didn't just need one contract we needed three because each of these Parcels is very unique they'll have separate set SE separate groups of investors in each one the finance ing structure for each one is different and so suddenly our workload to prepare these agreements went from one single agreement to three different agreements so uh we had hoped to bring the full projects to you this morning for your consideration and frankly we're not there yet we're still working through a lot of that writing and drafting uh we want to make sure that when the uh projects are being delivered that the city gets all the public benefits that we've been talking about from them um so right now we we're working diligently with the attorneys on that one to get those contracts prepared uh and we do expect to bring them to you later in this month or in early November but the project is the same so the the information in your packet this morning actually dates back to July if you recall in Late July we put together a term sheet uh for your consideration that outlined the general parameters of how Tiff could be used to get this project off the ground and to deliver these public benefits we continued that conversation in August made some revisions uh based on your suggestions uh and now we're uh as we prepare these actual contracts we're using uh that revised term sheet as the basis for our contract negotiations and preparations along the way there's been a lot of questions that have been posed about um uh should Tiff be used is this the right amount uh and then some hypothetical questions of well what would the site look like if we didn't use Tiff do we really need to use it on this so that's a question that I think is best answered by the developer and that's why he's here this morning he has a brief presentation to share and so uh the slides that I'm showing here are just quick reminders of what the project uh is is entailing uh this is the Northwest parcel uh the mixed use with office retail restaurant and residential uh the southwest corner is the high-rise with Condominiums uh a good deal of Class A office space and some retail restaurant space and then on the east side of the property facing the prominade are the two residential buildings with a cafe on the first floor uh of course I'm happy to answer any questions that you have about the term sheet or where we are moving forward but I what we really wanted to do was set this time aside for the developer to give some answers to your questions and then myself uh Patrick Brahma with Enclave uh and also Nick an Hut from ERS and Associates are is here and we are all uh happy to answer any questions and uh give you the information that you need to make a decision not today but in the future and with that I'll turn it over to Mr Brahma unless there's any immediate questions all right good thank you Mr Noor commissioner Jackson has a question for you yes I think maybe I'm GNA ask ask it now let's just sort of talk about the size and scope of this potential note so when we did so I've got it's a multi-part question I don't know where to start but when we did maon Green there was Tiff associated with the development and then Tiff associated with the street reconstruction around it um was that one note or two notes when we did that sure good good question so the mesan green project uh reuer Walton was a developer there and we did use Tiff on that project little bit simpler project one building one site one developer um but in that project it's very similar to what we're striving to do here is leverage this tax base growth on this private property to fund public improvements either in or adjacent to the property so on mson green we did agree to one uh approximately $5 million note to the developer um to help get their project going and also to secure some land that they will be giving to us um and then on top of that there was sufficient cash flow from that new project that's around a $90 million project um there's enough cash flow to fund the public improvements that we just finished um so as we went through that entitlement process some of the concerns we heard from the neighborhood were about um challenges and walking and bicycling and uh turning in and out of their neighborhoods uh and there was no uh budget planned in in the capital uh budget to make those kind of Road roadway or sidewalk improvements but with the Meson green project how we leveraged it was um to issue the note to the developer get the project going get the tax base uh enhanced and then uh capture that new tax base to fund these new improvements so that was one note to the to the developer and then the city issued a separate contract for the roads um that's how our engineering department prefers to do it for public infrastructure that we own and maintain we would rather hold those contracts and have the contractor answer to us um and so on the uh on on this proposed uh project we're looking at a similar type of outcome where the developer would be responsible for the work on their private property they would hire the contractor they would get the debt they would get the equity and then we would reimburse them through Tiff notes later um but also we think the the project would generate enough revenue for the city if we chose and I know we're not there yet but if we chose to proceed with some type of pedestrian Crossing in the future there should be a I don't I don't there'll be exactly enough funding at this point I think we're going to look at other sources is as well but there's a large chunk of funding from this site that could start that underpass project um so very similar arrangement to the Meson green okay thank you and then on this project what is the approximate size of the note that we would be um working with the developer on so it was 5 million for Meson green what would it be for this one sure so this is a much larger project so this one the value is just under $300 million of private investment the Tiff note or would be at the financial gap that they're seeing which is around 23 million and for this uh project that we're speaking about today we would actually break that into three separate notes so each phase of the project would get a note commensurate with their with their size and with the benefit they deliver but they would all total about 23 million okay so that's approximately 7 and a half% of the overall project would or a little bit 7. 7% that's correct um would be uh the size of the note relative to the overall project that's correct okay thank you that's all I've got yeah I thought that was a good point you raised there commissioner Jackson is that um we typically tried to stand to that 10% Mark in the circumstances where we do use T tax increment financing correct yeah we're at 7 and a half% yeah 7.7 all right other questions for manager nondorf at this point in time otherwi they could bring Mr brah up here to talk about um i' would say that commissioner Pierce has been the one you know leading this conversation in terms of um the level of curiosity I think of whether it's the council or the HRA but he's been kind of the point man person on this and um but we look forward to your uh your thoughts I know that um you've been asked to think about what kind of a project could you build here if uh you didn't have the tax in governement financing available like you have for the like you tentatively have for the approved project yeah we still got a ways to go on that but nonetheless uh it's an important step in the process and I know you've got a little sheet here that you provided to us so we're eager to hear what you have to say this morning Mr Brahma welcome please give us your full name and address morning mayor members of the H uh Patrick Brahma uh 1660 South High 100 St Louis Park and with Enclave company as we're the developer on this project glad to be here with you again and continue the conversation and what we think is a wonderful project I appreciate the continuous feedback and um uh and collaboration on this project so I'll go through this presentation uh admittedly I we've been working with you guys for it's been about 18 months almost twoy year roughly process uh this is would be the least visually exciting presentation I have provided to date and I just want to give you that disclaimer so I apologize lots of words and Patrick talking um and so I'll go through this it's a basically it's a onepage document but I I kind of go through and highlight different sections of it that way as I'm talking through it we can follow along with where I'm pointing to and what I'm talking about uh in general there's been three questions that um that we've been discussing uh with with the city council uh over the last couple weeks I'll go through those three questions they're the three questions that are shown on your screen here um first is what would happen to this project uh the project that was approved on 9917 uh received final approvals if Tiff wasn't available or um for the sake of clarity of some sort of financial assistance or investment people use different terms but if there wasn't some sort of support to the project what would happen uh then kind of reversing that question backwards uh if if assistance was taken away what what type of project could could occur here um and so we'll go through through that in a little bit of detail and then um taking that question even a step further was asked okay those changes to the project what would be taken away what's the dollar value roughly to those things so we can understand the scope or the impact of those various items so I'll go through these three questions um before I go into that I did make a note uh Mr new indor presentation was great and accurate I just want to make for anybody that gets into the details or Geeks out plans the way that I do the renderings that were included in that are some of the original renderings on the project we did go through as you well know uh multiple rounds of land use review we ended up updating those renderings based on public feedback received through a public process and so from our perspective there's further enhancements to the articulation the site plan Green Space dog park connections to the prominade that are not on those plans only for the sake of clarity for anybody that's watching from the public okay so jumping into this uh presentation or or uh um note sheet that we put together starting at the top the first question uh what would happen to this project if Tiff was not available um the the direct answer is the this project that was approved on 9917 wouldn't work there is there is a financial gap um Ellers obviously is under done their underwriting uh to um to validate that financial gap uh so just to be clear if if anybody hasn't hearded this project wouldn't move forward uh we're not in a position financially to make it work without Tiff as approved um I do want to mention for the record that uh that we've attempted to be transparent that we knew a financial gap existed on the project and that that this discussion would be needed and that assistance would be needed at some level because of the questions that have occurred recently we went back and checked records just to make sure that I'm not just verbally saying that so all of the applications that we've made we've I dated them here and each of those applications also um included multiple some in some cases two or three meetings with different Boards of commissions we attempted to at least verbally state that you know we don't know if or how much excuse me how much Tiff would be needed or exactly what the financial gap is but we knew there is there is a gap and until we get through land use approvals and really understand the total project cost and understand the scope of the project we won't know that final Gap uh but we knew a gap existed and we're obviously sophisticated enough and done enough projects to know upfront in general where a project is headed and so we've tried to be transparent that that would be the case on this project from the very beginning so what would need to change with this project so the project that was approved on the 17th uh to make it work without Tiff um I'm going to do a couple preambles just because from our core value perspective we just want to be transparent um we're going through this question because we're being asked uh this is not we're not requesting changes these changes we're not proposing these changes uh we are aware and we're made aware and are conscious of the city's policies that they have in place sustainability policies affordability policies comprehensive plan small District plans we obviously went through multiple steps of concept plan review with the community for us that's a huge part of the initial process the city to make sure that we're understanding the city's processes and and plans and vision um and so a core value for Enclave is that we we don't want to be the developer that's going to the communities and trying to ask for exceptions to all the rules we want to follow the city's Vision so that's what we try doing here um on this particular project um so I'm going to outline a handful of these uh different um items uh that are really the biggest impact on a project driving it uh driving this particular project uh to need Assistance or creating a fin Financial gaps backwards affordable housing is and and the first two that I'm going to outline here are the two most impactful um affordable housing is pretty straightforward I'm going to go through these these different items that are the move the big drivers and then uh on the right side the next section I'll identify dollar values to that but it's it you know affordable housing there isn't a ton to discuss there it's pretty straight for policy uh and impact on the project there's 10% affordability 50% Ami across this project 500 excuse me we're in the 570 something units so there's um uh quite a bit of affordable housing on this project that is a a big impact to a project uh land use strategy um this project and and we we we've followed and bought into the city's vision for the site we think the saltdale district guidelines are you know we we're aware of them and and think ultimately what has been approved here is is a great project so we're not not throwing out these comments uh uh in opposition to the city's Vision uh for this area however it is a reality of the financial performance of a project it does it does weigh on a project and make it more expensive to construct a project um so some of the things uh we were asked what what could we do to change to make the project work and really it comes down to simplifying the project that's the short answer uh so I'll go through that in a little bit detail a little bit of detail here but making the project um you know the net outcome would be a simplified project that is more efficient which lowers the per unit cost of construction while still in our perspective delivering a good project that still can generate the rents that we need and it would just reduce the financial gap so if we can come in at a lower cost and still maintain good rents the financial gap uh is reduced and so this is a big mover on the project uh what would it look like right now this project includes four blocks we would need to swap it out to two blocks so you'd have two larger buildings uh right now uh the parking is separated into four blocks obviously the buildings are all split apart the below ground parking we would we can we would connect it it would be much more efficient perfectly rectangular parking that's what we do on most of our projects that's very efficient um some of that parking would likely come out of ground and be at grade or above ground around and the screening of that parking uh there would be some screening we wouldn't want ugly parking we wouldn't propose that but it wouldn't be as to the to the standard likely that the community would would prefer on this site uh there would be some more surface parking it wouldn't be significant this site just doesn't have enough space for significant uh surface parking to make a a a project work but we or the level of density that we need to make a project work but there would be more surface parking than we have right now the exterior design of the project would take a step back it'd be something closer to like a 71 France um what else do we have on here uh right now the project has a from our perspective uh a lot of mix of use we have a decent amount of office and Retail the intensity of mixed use would come down um office and Retail are high risk drivers for a developer uh the higher the risks the higher returns that investors require so just from that metrics alone pulling out big risk factors can drive down the minimum returns that devel that a investor is going to require on a project and in addition to that the biggest cost driver in these buildings is concrete uh so parking and office and Retail Drive significant amount of parking so we can get far more efficient with our parking in these buildings if we move to a strategy and not proposing this i' eliminated the public parking on the first floors we could really just have true apartment buildings that would be very efficient and cost effective and we pull out a lot of concrete out of these buildings so again four buildings to two and those two buildings probably are very heavily residential unit counts probably go up um office commercial space goes far quite a bit down maybe down to a minimal amount um you're probably looking at structures or buildings are kind of like the Fred that you're familiar with it'd still be 5 over two seven stories out of grounds five stories of wood frame construction the other component that would change on this site is and we're proud to have worked with the city on this but there's a lot of public realm there's a lot of public space there's increased setbacks in certain areas um there's amenities in certain areas that you're well aware of we would we would to make this work we would be pulling those things out and going to more of a a standard Suburban type approach where you have a sidewalk system system that wraps a building and meet the city's code requirements for plantings and trees and so it's not you know we do this stuff all the time so we don't think it's a bad project we still would be proud of that type of project it just obviously isn't the same as the city's vision and our discussions to date Brahma hold that thought for a second chrisser Jackson has a question for you yes thank you um no oh you're getting some water um so when we talk about merging the two buildings I remember in the process of of changing the um land use plans along the way that it was pretty difficult to accommodate having the potential of an underpass and I thought you could so obviously if we merge the two buildings that underpass goes away um so tell me sort of if I've got this correct so parking would be easier and cheaper if we didn't have the underpass we um wouldn't have a East West Corridor through there so it'd be a big block but tell me a little bit about the difficulty of planning around the potential underpass and I apologize I hadn't gotten to I it is noted here and that's a good point so I had I apologize I didn't cover that so okay this project as you well know um a big part of the strategy of the design and layout of this project and part of the public process we went through that that resulted in a pause was uh learning about and receiving feedback on a potential underpass connection uh across France Avenue and the outcome of that discussion was Landing that underpass in the middle basically the middle of our site and that resulted in the need of us to adjust our site layout um and the design of our buildings uh if you look at our site plan today you'll notice that the Northwest building is a small building it's a it's not one thing doesn't look like the other so it's a small unique building um that's because uh in order to get a um a slow grading ramp down to the center of our site on the west side of our site to make that connection across France we had to create an extra 50ft Corridor across the south side of our site to wrap up uh for that ramping down for a connection across France and then to your point council member Jackson uh we there was a desire to make sure that there was an east to west connection from the prominade directly to the landing point of whatever that connection would be in the future uh underpasses the current assumption and so in Reverse if if we only have two buildings that east to west connection is gone if we go back to a more traditional uh layout that we're proposing and talking about that that path that's available along the South Side we would request to have it reduced in in width so and then the last component is the way that I designing the structural Integrity of these buildings against France Avenue they're being designed at extra cost to take structural load of excavation and pull away of dirt in the future for a potential underpass um so there's a few factors that we've included into this project intentionally in our design that that are cost drivers okay so and I'm just going to summarize for the people listening there are two Regional connectors that have influenced the design you have now and they would both I mean we wouldn't get rid of the regional path obviously but the improvements to the regional bike trail would be gone and then everything the complex things to do with the underpass would be gone well yeah in this hyp difficult that yes that's correct is the short answer we're not asking for those those would the things we would have to give up if we hadn't asked for them you would not have included them that's correct okay terrific thank you commer U thank you uh so I obviously have a lot of questions but I have one short one then I I'll let you kind of wrap up but what is the difference swag estimate that you would think of in the total number of US units of housing between this potential F well this hypothetical situation and the current proposal we have we so we have not um done a redesign and actually done a a plan for the unit count of the the buildings merged uh at rate the way that we've been looking at right now we've been assuming a slight increase uh but we we haven't dug deep so I'd have to actually do a design to to figure that out my guest guess off the top of my head you might be five to 10 Perc more the reason why I pause on that is there you have to go it's a big um uh stress testing analysis it's not a simple direct path and what I'm getting at is it may be more efficient on this project because of the cost of concrete and the parking ratios that you can get with the physical square foot of the site to keep the exact same parking exact unit count um but we're so much more cost effective per unit that just staying at that unit count is the way to go versus trying to push unit count up higher and now you have to add another floor of concrete the concrete floors of parking are the most expensive part of these projects so we'd have to get very deep into to be able to answer that question with uh more certainty um so I would say no more probably no more than 10% increase uh but it could end up being a similar number if if we did a redesign thank you that that is really help just directional I think that that's fair um and then when you do mention the elimination of affordable housing um so that is a a policy that we have as a city so would you in that situation then hypothetically be looking to do the by in byy in this analysis that we have here is assuming just the policy doesn't exist not even the Buy in it would just be there's no affordability payments or compliance iance is what this analysis is suggesting I'm not requesting that but that's what this is suggesting okay thank you I do have more like broader conversation but I'm happy with to complete thank you go ahead Mr brma the third item uh is in relation to uh public spaces public streets public right of way public realm um there isn't ever a perfect way to describe this because it's a little bit variable um but in in General on this particular project as you know gager Drive comes in on the south side of our site that done that is located on private property own maintain liability of private property owner this project requires the Reconstruction of that road we also have the new North to South Road there's public easement over it so it's going to function like a public road but it's privately owned operated maintained and liability there's obviously public space that's included on the project as well and uh you know the expansion of the prominade and a few other areas uh in some communities those are those areas through the plating process get dedicated to the city and the city owns operates maintains and takes care of the liability of those things I know that's an intentional strategy for the city which again I'm not asking for a change to but there is a cost to that and so that is a driver here and I'll outline that as well and then the sustainability policy also has costs associated with that um that I'll touch on here here in a moment um and then just a couple caveats uh just cuz we're throwing out so so much information I think the caveats are important um trying to compare and and and this is something developers do not not even on this public stage trying to compare one real estate development to another and making hypothetical comparisons without being able to bid two like projects on the exact same site with two sets of plans at the exact same time there will always be minor discrepancies because difference in market and time and so I just want any everybody to know this isn't a perfect science without what I just said two sets of full plans bid at the same time on the exact same site it it so there's a little wiggle here for disclaimer for everybody the market conditions do matter very much uh and then the last thing not asking but it got brought up in a subsequent conversation I just do want to identify this project is pain and depending on how you someone would Define development fees the answer is slightly different but this project is paying about $6 to10 million of development fees depending on your perspective there's a cost impact there and again if someone was asking the question how could we make this work without Tiff that's another bucket that someone may or may not be willing to consider we're not requesting okay so I'm going to move on to making connections and dollar values to those four uh buckets that we outlined um I've been talking a lot so I'm just I'm looking at you one last time before I continue down this column uh is it okay if I continue on I please do okay uh so I'll go through these four different buckets here uh first affordability uh we took the 30 uh the uh just to update everybody originally we were at 20 years assumed affordability uh we understood the city's policy was updated recently to 30 years or at least we when we originally came in thinking about this project we thought it was 20 to 25 years and recently we were made aware that it's actually 30 and so I'm saying that in the context of what we're showing here we're showing 30 years of rent loss on those affordable units and we're doing a Net Present Value calculation of of that rent loss we're discounting at a 6.25% discount rate and we're including 2 and a half% inflation what I'm getting at is if we just did a surface like hey $800,000 over 30 years that totals $26 million that's not necessarily a fair way to represent that number we need to Discount that back to Net Present Value so we're showing $16 million throw out another caveat different people do these calculations differently and someone might look at this differently and have a different perspective but this is just one way of looking at it's how we look at it is that's the rent loss that we have on the rental buildings on the condo side we're not dealing with long-term casual analysis or loss of rents what we're talking about is a one-time upfront uh construction cost impact to the project so they're at $3.4 million so when you combine them together we're looking at that roughly $16 million if you if you Net Present Value back the the loss of rent on the land use side of things um I had mentioned that caveat of trying to understand the difference in pricing with construction costs is is very difficult short of what I said of um but we're actually in a unique position uh or Enclave is right now uh we have another seven story building seven story building under out of ground that's under construction right now in a walk Environ walkable environment in downtown Rochester that that project and the style of building is very similar to what what really what elimination of one through four there looks like um so we have a real life example with construction costs that we can compare to this particular project and so that's what this section does it Compares a project that includes one through four to one that doesn't and I guess I would even add a caveat with that Rochester project that I'm comparing this to they we they did qualify for re development Tiff District we did investigate the potential use of Tiff on that project they did have a sustainability policy affordability policy commercial requirement mixed use requirement green space requirement that all kicked in if you Ed Tiff for a number of reasons we ended up not going to the route of Tiff but it's actually set up well here to be able to make a comparison between projects versus me just doing forecast and takeoffs and making assumptions so that project was $230,000 per unit right now our pricing for per apartment unit this particular project for construction costs ranges between 260 and $275,000 per unit depending on the building the Northwest building is the most expensive because all the Mak to use an extra concrete inefficient layout um and so then if you just if you and then further in this analysis if you read through it uh for the sake of being conservative not in the favor of the developer we I I pulled back those numbers pulled back the Gap I took $5,000 off per unit and so I included the range of what that could be at the um at the top there so it could be 13 to20 million um the majority of apartment units we have on this project are not in the Northwest building so um You' be looking at something that's closer to the you know 15ish 14ish Ming is my assumption if if you did a very deep analysis um so that's roughly the difference between you know if we if we did change our project today to something that's closer to you know didn't include the four things on the left there in other words basic what we have in Rochester right now that's about the savings that we assume would occur um but without designing it and bidding it we won't I we're making assumptions the third item uh operations and maintenance I talked through through on the left there kind of the background on that uh we did have our maintenance team uh work with a subcontractor to put together some rough estimates of the ongoing maintenance for this project and the difference between a project that has all of the extra setbacks the all of these public spaces that are privately maintained uh the way that it's set up in this proposed project the approved project the way that we're proposing here versus a traditional project where most of those spaces turned public the intent of plantings is less as you well know we've the the level of plantings and Landscaping on the site were enhanced to match the prominade to make it feel like you're not leaving the prominade when you come through our site that it's the prominade is flowing through our site and so if we reduce everything down the levels down to a more standard level and then a lot a lot of the the public space was was dedicated to the public including the roads we could save $500 to $100,000 per year on maintenance this project also kicked in the city's requirement for us to do a park maintenance fee a special Park maintenance fee for the prominade totaling $86,000 a year and so you can see the total impact over 25 years here we did not do a Net Present Value calculation on that so just know if someone did a Net Present Value calculation the total there would come down but that's the face value of adding that up over 25 years the life of the Tiff District yep no just go ahead and finish and then I'll I'll follow up after is this I think this is your last bullet point yeah time for water break too thank you okay last item is sustainability uh sustainability uh there's a range here and there's we don't show the top end of the range I'll walk through what why that is um what we did on the short end end of the range there identified very specific straightforward uh cost um the sustainability policy as you will know requires um has certain design requirements uh uh um uh what's the word I'm thinking of modeling requirements um and then commissioning requirements so there's a lot of soft costs that are involved with complying with that policy on this project over the four buildings we're looking at about a half million dollars of soft costs that are added so that's not construction cost it's not physically changing anything to the project it's just the soft costs and then in addition to that and it's not a city requirement but encouraged we added solar to two of our buildings so those are very straightforward costs that I can easily say these are extra costs um that we're showing that's that $1.2 million there are other costs um but one thing I want to do is make sure that I wasn't double counting um those other costs that might be increased cost in mechanical or increased cost in the envelope or insulation of a building those types of things to make the project more efficient from an energy perspective those are already picked up in number two so I'm showing the lower number and sustainability to avoid I don't want to be disingenuous in in double count dollars so um realize that was longwinded thanks for hanging in with me um I'll stand for questions um thank you um Mr chair uh so uh thanks for um going through the exercise and U really embracing the question that was fast and so I I just wanted to just frame this um the reason I asked the question whenever that was a month ago or a couple weeks ago whenever um I everything is connected and so when I read through what you have here there's a couple of things that stand out to me um the project that we have in front of us right it's a it's a beautiful project right when you step back and you think about the vision in that space um I think it's a beautiful project um but I do think our processes kind of lead us toward an outcome fairly early on in the process and so the the um just your first bullet point um this project would not occur but for Tiff like we talk about out Tiff Tiff Tiff Tiff and what we really should be saying is right the city needs to make an investment in this project well what are the options for that well Tiff is one of those right we also look at Grants right we could do bonds we there's lots of things we could do um now they may not create the capacity of $20 million to do the project uh but I do think it's healthy for the city to be thinking about if we want to do this and we need to make an investment um what's the best way to do that okay so that was the first thing that was in my head is I would like to make sure as we look at things like this we're framing it that way um and so that that's the first thing um I think it's healthy for us to be able to have a conversation about choices but you can't can't have a conversation about choices if you don't know what those choices cost you don't know what the impact is of those choices and so I've done the I've done this just as all of us have we have a site plan in front of us we're giving non-binding feedback um I will say well what if i' like for affordable housing to be um not revert back to Market well that has a cost to it when I make that statement in a council meeting I don't know what it what the cost is of that and so we kind of all have things that we add to the project um but without really knowing what the impact is to the project other than it definitely is in the benefit of the city for most of the things that uh we suggest but I don't know that that is the a healthy way to do it and so by the time we've done that that you probably spent almost $2 million to get to this point um and so I would like I appreciate the right side of your spreadsheet because I think it healthy for us to be able to have a conversation um which takes time right we can't have the conversation today but have a conversation about choices um and I'm not hearing anybody say this but I'm just giving the I'm I'm just kind of painting with broad Strokes You could argue with your land use strategy points as a city we perhaps we can't really afford our comp plan because there's a gap there all right well if that's true then what do we need to do as a city um to make sure that the things that we have in there we can achieve maybe we can achieve them in a longer period of time maybe we can structure projects differently so that we can continue to progress towards what's in the comp plan U those kinds of conversations um as um I'm I'm used to in business as a leader having those kinds of conversations and so I'm simply trying to frame um from a process standpoint it would be healthier for us to be able to do that um and so I know my comment about I don't know if we can afford our comp plan that's a big broad stroke um but I say that for a fact and I think everybody can understand where I'm going when I say that um and so then I'll go back to everything is connected we're also looking at a um a proposed tax Lev increase of 133% now we're doing some work on that so everybody hear me say that I'm going to say it three times we're doing some work on that we're doing some work on that we are doing some work on that I mentioned that for the same framing reason if we do this project or a project and we use Tiff we definitely create more tax capacity but it sits in the district for whatever the time frame we set for that that tax District so if we're in a position where we need additional Revenue could it be better for us to have a project that can be done in two years without Tiff maybe it's not 350 um million in tax capacity maybe it's 150 but that 150 goes directly to the general fund once that project is complete again everything's connected and so that's that is um is how I think about a lot of this but I think our process has to enable us to be looking at all of these pieces that layer on top of each other and not making a decision um without um those factors being in place and so a lot of what I'm teeing up um Mr Brahma is not the developer right this is not all on you some of this is for sure on City process um and I think we can we can make a lot of progress in terms of looking at how we do this um and so the the last thing I will will add is that I think I said this already I um we may look at this and have conversation as a council and say um again I'm hypothetically you have a list of things on on the right we may choose as a city you know what we don't have $22 million to invest in this but we'd like to get it done so maybe we can make choices in here that relax some of the standards or delay some of the value um so that we can get the project done those kinds of conversations we would have to have and I think you've already heard I my colleagues start to dive into that um and I think that that is a healthy conversation for us so I just wanted to thank you for engaging in this and um the due diligence that you've done you've answered the question of saying well here's what would impact If U there were no Tiff and then I really appreciate the right side uh of where you tried to quantify uh what those changes might be U because I think that can help us uh have a much deeper conversation um as we um move forward beond today thank you Comm commissioner U thank you uh thank you commissioner Pierce for kind of framing that up uh because I think my my direct ask would be to the city that as we continue looking at our process I would love for Tiff and what are these things going to cost to be a part of that entire Evolution it feels like right now we say we'll talk about that later and I think that that gets to your point of it makes it really hard to make some of these trade-off decisions um because I know that there are like very tactical things that I've asked for right of of having parking that could be converted into something else down the road which I know adds to costs um having this underpass I think would be amazing and really drive to the utilization and the connectivity that has a cost um additional car charging right like there are all these little things that we've layered on and those were just ones I could think of for myself throughout these meetings and so I want us to bring more of that visibility into the discussion earlier on but I think that's also because what you've presented here today frankly isn't a project that would be approved right and what I really understood of the ask of commissioner Pierce or council member Pierce I think at the time um what would you have presented as a project that you thought would be approved and that I think would be different right um right now affordable housing is a requirement that we have as a city um there are different things in here as as I'm going through right um if you were to and I just did like back of the napkin math um but I think it would be approxim I'll kind of describe my math that I did um I estimated based off of the what I saw in here is 524 rental apartments I did 10% um which was 53 apartment unit units and then I forgot off the top of my head when I was doing this math I estimated like 150,000 for the buyin and so that's approximately $8 million and so that would be something um that isn't a part of this calculation that would absolutely add to the cost and I think just compound that this might not be a feasible project regardless and so I think this was a helpful exercise and I think helps bring some of the dollar values to some of the things that we're asking for but I and I know you it took two years to get to this project as is so I know I can't just put you on the spot to say like quick come up with what it would be but I am genuinely asking you know if you were coming into this project and you had it in your mind that Tiff would absolutely not be something that would be possible for this site um I don't think that this is what you would have brought forward because this wouldn't have been approved either right so you would have some internal tradeoffs um can you speak to that at all here on the spot of of what would it look like if you were trying to get something approved and wanted to make the best of this site before you answer that I just wanted to clarify the question I asked was if you got little or no Tiff how would that impact your project so I I don't I wasn't actually thinking project that could be approved right um we talked about that question uh but that that wasn't the ass that I I had for today so I just wanted to be fair to to you thank you for that clarification it's my ass great now on this spot well hold on add on yeah I'd like to just kind of add on and hopefully you'll prove this commissioner agnu so you're talking about parking assume and this is going to be stretch your engineering skills but assume all parking underground is connected so we have a big square of parking or two rectangles of parking but then we have just you know bare bare level streets breaking it into 200 blocks 200 foot blocks on the surface so underneath that street it's all parking underground but we we maintain the um uh surface level separation of the streets because um that would be required in our um that's sort of the basis of the whole Southdale plan so this you've got them merged but is is that a fair qualification commissioner agu okay thanks glad to respond to the question and it's it does it's I have to side comment it's interesting because we've tried digesting the question that we thought we heard we even dialogued with multiple people okay what how did you hear the qu and there's different ways to answer this question so I just out of respect it's different ways to answer this question um I can answer that on the spot and I say this with um humility and just respect so don't I'm not attempting to abrasive if if if assuming no assistance at all we would have never worked on this project it's if we knew it wouldn't be a possibility for that discussion period that I we don't think a project works here that meets because the only way for us to make it work would be for me for us to ask for a bunch of variances that's that's the honest I mean that's we would have to ask for several variances and waivers to policies now would it be exactly these four things maybe it's three of the four or a combination of of something but we it just wouldn't work we would you know and we and it's kind of for I tried to um for us for Enclave it it it's important like it's a core value for us when we go into communities to not be the developer that's asking for can I get an exception to this can I get an exception to that you know do we we really try to frame up the way we work with communities to meet their Vision um so I realized the process things you just mention and the odds that we're at now and the difficult position we're in because of that and I respect that um but to your question council member Ru I um probably not the answer you're looking for but that's that's the truth thank you and and I think where that brings my mind and just kind of speaking to my fellow Commissioners here is you know we look at some of these sites across the city and this being one of them of kind of asking ourselves like why hasn't this been redeveloped yet like why is it still sitting there um as the bunker as the Macy's Furniture Store and and there are multiple sites right it isn't just this one and what I what I hear a lot from people in the community is you know these are desirable sites we shouldn't be using Tiff to attract developers to it um and I I just think it's a good data point to understand well they're still undeveloped today um and what we have as standards as a city have changed from when when the original Macy's site was built and so I do think that um commissioner pierce the way you framed it up of do we need to change what it is that we're looking for our comprehensive plan like does our comprehensive plan need to change if we want to set a specific threshold or cap or goal of what Tiff is for a city and I I know we've all seen the graph um I think that U manager n dorf usually shows it at some points um throughout the process of you know what percentage of our tax base is within a tiff District compared to other cities across the board and I always use that kind of mentally as well and and maybe maybe we do want to talk about a hard cap but maybe it is just thinking relatively where we at um and I if I recall I don't know the exact percentage right now off the top of my head and I won't put anyone else on the spot but we're very very low on that graph and so if what we want to take out of this is a higher level conversation about the comprehensive plan and whether we can afford that and what are the mechanisms that we have as a city um maybe one of those things is we say okay this is what we want out of a city this is our comprehensive plan but we want to balance it with here's our Target or our goal for Tiff District percentages um I think that might be a way to think about it as well um because we do have Tiff in our disposal as something we can do to help encourage developments that we want to see and so I think that that's where we just again need to have that macro level conversation to have an awareness of these tradeoffs of is this site in this area where we can get this underpass and really allow connectivity to one of our other substantial Investments within the Centennial Lakes Park area and connect that across under brand um I think that that might be a reasonable conversation for us to have at the top of the House of where do we strategically want to invest up to a certain threshold that we think is reasonable um but again these are kind of broader conversations but I do think it's worthwhile for us to talk about um as we consider this today so thank you yeah thanks everybody um see Mr anhut out there and Mr nondorf too um but first let me ask Mr Brahma uh you know when I look at the I look at the left hand side of the chart you put together which I I appreciate you doing this work on actually short notice and I don't think manager nondorf has seen this until today this may or may not be new information or partially new information to him I doubt it with his level of knowledge that uh he probably knows all of these things from having got to these exercises with you over time uh but we haven't really talked about what kind of pressure that you're under as a as a developer in our community sitting here with an approved project and some I would think some potential uh financing lined up what you know what kind of a timeline are you on there with respect to uh potential financing uh timing wise right now uh first thing that is the overarching timeline we're need to comply with is our purchase agreement we our deadline is January 10th um so we're trying to back into that and and U to be candid it's getting very tight and so um we're closely monitoring that And discussing that with Macy's um I don't want to speak on behalf of Macy's but uh it's been from their perspective a long process as well and I don't know that I don't think this is the first project that's uh come to the city is my understanding so I just don't know where that conversation will go is all I can say publicly but we are under we're under a time crunch right now um as far as uh debt and Equity uh the the Full Construction lending the full final debt and Equity that's something that will come into play before construction starts if um don't know if we've conveyed the detail or if it's been brought up but Macy's will be leasing back the property so we're going to buy it then they're going to lease it back through August of 25 and during that uh lease back period we would be obtaining our uh final Equity package in debt financing for for constructions of the $300 million so in the short term here what we need to accomplish is getting the dollars to close in the land which is a different process and so we're we're feel good about that process but admittedly it is it's getting very tight and with with unknowns you know candidly we're looking at 200 plus page Tiff agreements three of them that's 600 something pages to get through that and accomplish all that before you know with enough time for people to close on it's we're in a difficult spot right now now um but I say that just sharing information to be transparent we're going to get through it and any the any clear Direction you can give helps us and Macy's all move forward so I know that's not a perfect answer um yeah no I didn't expect a perfect answer I but I do you know when we think about the information that we've just seen for the first time this morning and uh we think about uh having the ability to to think all of this through on our own in addition to sitting here for uh an hour roughly to hear what you're talking about and and hearing things like well uh as member as commissioner Jackson brought up uh well we couldn't improve the regional bike trail or we you know it this affects the passageway connection we that that's a work in progress that we're thinking has value in terms of of uh drilling down on that idea to see if it really Mak sense and uh if if you came back with a two-part project instead of a four-part project and the things you're talking about generally here uh you know I think for all of us having a little bit of time to think this through would be would be good but I want to do that in the context of being sensitive to the time pressures that you're under um and I also would like to see for example me personally you know that old P adage of pictures worth of a thousand words you know if you had a if we had a new site plan or a potential site plan that embraced some of theide ideas that you'd have here that on a project that you think could be built uh whether you know to commissioner 's point you know it may or may not be something that that we would approve because we have certain standards that we want to maintain but the idea that you would you'd come forward with something that from a site plan standpoint and from an elevation just a like a sketch plan basis show us what's the difference you know uh if you go to two buildings instead of four buildings and you go to two streets instead of four streets and you go to above ground parking what what one of the things that is affecting me is one of the potentially one of the best pieces of property in our city uh you you might have to come back with this idea of having exposed parking ramps above ground above grade I mean right on the park you know we've seen that already happen uh over at where Pinstripes is you know we put a screen on it but nonetheless there's a parking ramp on one of the best pieces of property in town because of opposition from uh Years Gone by about what what people wanted to see there so there are things for us to Think Through too and um as part of that thinking process for me and I think for others as well and maybe this is where manager unor and and Mr anut in particular come into play and that is what are the implications I'm going to ask you guys that maybe come up here together Mr Brahma stand by what are the implications for the general taxpaying public by advancing this project pro has approved we've talked about this before but I think that's an important thing to be thinking about as we is as we maybe even delay this conversation for for two weeks or um you know but trying to be sensitive to what Mr brah is facing from a pressure standpoint from a you know financing because as we gone through this project he said all along this isn't going to be a finance this isn't going to be a funding issue you know and I don't want want to put them in a spot where it is a funding issue or put us in a spot where it is a funding issue because we've already got two projects that are approved sitting on France Avenue uh with market conditions that aren't allowing them to go forward so Mr nondorf I don't know if you want to lead off on that question sure want me to repeat it or do you could you repeat it sure yeah and maybe this wasn't very artfully stated but I want to know what you think the implications are for the general taxpaying public in Edina by advancing this project as it's been approved I'll start with the general and then ni can jump into some details um uh so so the biggest impact is having a private developer make the investment into our community and deliver the items that we as a community said we wanted so as we've went through the process to prepare the Southdale plan the comprehensive plan the sustainability policy the affordable housing policy you know as you recall those took years to develop with lot of input from the community and now we can make progress on each one of those fronts um the developer is willing to take the risk and make that investment conditioned upon the city participating at the end and reimbursing them for a portion of it but to me the biggest impact of the taxpayer is they get that result that they're looking for um and if some without the risk of the city going out for debt and building it ourselves uh without the risk of of the city buying land Building plazas building parking uh so we get the benefit with very little risk if or no risk so what about this notion that uh it spreads a it spreads a more General burden on the general taxpaying public when these taxes are uh collected on a tax acement financing sort of basis and uh but we still got you know there's more there's more people living here and there's more to maintain to get um and I know that some folks out there worry about that but my understanding is that let me just preface it by saying this maybe to Mr anut is that if your if the market rate increase of your property in your town uh is less than uh annually less than the uh proposed Levy you can capture that differential to help raise the standard on where the where the level was frozen to help pay for some of those expenses that people worry about that you're you're putting more on us by virtue of building this project for 300 million uh until the tax inqu financing district is over 25 years from now how do you deal with that problem thank you for the question how do you answer that question I guess uh Nick an Hut with Ellers and Associates who financial advisers to the H um and how it uses its resources um so in part um to answer the question question you know we're talking about the use of tax increment financing which itself is designed to capture the new value that's created after this private investment is made and potentially harnessing that additional tax capacity to help pay for portions of the project that that we've mentioned that are driving a gap in the financing of that project um we're also talking about only using 75% of that tool to help fund this project um that tool is designed to shift the burden or the risk to the developer it it is incumbent that the developer actually builds that project generates the tax base and then continues to operate that project at an amount that actually pays the taxes to create the financing in the first place and uh so we can think about other potential City resources leveraging your own existing dollars to pay for those things but that would put your own money at risk you essentially would be investing directly into this project and then expecting it to deliver later on uh to repay the funding that you're providing so we're we're using a kind of a passive investment strategy in this we're deferring the benefit that's created to the tax base in order to obtain all of these amenities that we want in this project and at the end of the day it's going to come back onto the tax base eventually and add to the pie of the ex existing taxpayers um but not for the period while the Tiff district is established um but Tiff itself is also designed intentionally to try to protect the uh potential that this project might not help fund future increases in services that you find necessary when you increase your Levy in the future to pay for all of the things that the city does and provides its taxpayers if that rate increases in the future the property actually helps offset a portion of that increase because the tax rate that is put into effect when a tiff district is established is Frozen in time so at any point if that rate rises above the Frozen level the taxes related to that differential do flow to the local jurisdictions um so so that is a hypothetical that is incumbent on the fact that maybe tax rates would rise above the level that they are today um that is a protection that's built into this mechanism so it is built into how Tiff operates that those taxes are not captured for that entire period of time it's only the taxes related to your existing tax rate right now which by the way for this project would be after you've adopted your 2025 levies so the property that sits there today is still going to contribute the same amount of taxes um while this Tiff district is operational as it is for 2025 going forward the P the portion of the increase after it's developed is going to be captured within a tiff District only to the extent that that tax rate matches in the future if the county the school the city need to increase that total rate in the future because of a new demand on public surfaces that additional part above the Frozen rate goes to your local General levies to help offset that need does that answer your question I think so yeah I mean it's I know it's technical but uh what I hear you saying generally is that there's a mechanism established through the law that allows us to to increase that Frozen base or the increment above the Frozen base if uh we have a levy that increas that helps defay any and pay for any uh increase in the demand for services I think I I would phrase it a different way um but please do you don't have the discretion necessary to choose to turn it on or off right what you have right now is we're going to establish a tiff district and we're going to establish it based on the the tax rates that are in effect today if in the future it's not going to limit your ability to raise your levies in the future if you need to or future bodies I'm not pointing at you all directly but a future Council needs to raise its Levy and it causes an increase in that tax rate then there's nothing in the Tiff District that's going to preclude that ability or restrict you in any way but the way the the taxes are going to flow is up until the point of the Frozen tax rate it's going to still be captured within the Tiff District but if there's an increase in that rate Above This level the taxpayers are expected to pay in 2025 then that money directly to to that I'm going to use increment I know increment on top of increment but that incremental difference is going to help fund those Levy increases can I well yeah just one other segue off that and I go to commissioner pear but it seems to me that one of the other uh potential advantages arguable advantages of tax engr financing is that the project gets built the taxpayer gets the advantage of all of the benefits that were created when the project is finished uh during the entire time that taxing financing district is in existence um and it's getting you know and then what's getting uh they're getting the developers getting repaid out of the increment that flows uh close to completion of the project correct it's an Tiff is best viewed from a long-term perspective I mean we're not making an investment today just to have a quick flip and a big you know a big pay payday tomorrow um the city's been here for over 100 years we're going to be here 100 years in the future so as we make some of these long-term Investments and some of these long-term investment strategies we're really looking not to tomorrow but 10 years in the future 20 years in the future 30 years in the future and it's these types of massive Investments that will help solidify and stabilize that future so I that's usually how I look at it is in with the long-term lens yeah so just by way of example I think if you look at 50th in France where we tore down a an exempt piece of tax property which was the middle ramp and Nolan Mains now exists there and we had we used Tax incur financing down there and the things that we got out of it were uh improvements on the ramp on the north side of the road we got a heated underground parking that's free for people in our town free across the road uh we got uh plazas and passageways and new businesses and all these public amenities that people were take are able to take immediate advantage of when the project is finished and what what I think it was about $10 million in Tiff on 50th in France right yeah the the Tiff uh at 50th was a $10 million Tiff note and so every as I recall every six months now they're paying $600,000 worth of taxes and based on them doing all the work now they're getting reimbursed 90% of that probably goes back to the developer to reimburse them for the money they expended till the $10 million is satisfied plus interest is that that's exactly correct and that place um has really uh you know turned into a place that people love there's more it did everything that we had hoped it would do I mean as as you mentioned it was um it was a a a tax exempt parking garage that was not Ada accessible and it was a a back loading dock and we turned it into into a place where people love uh with events and programming and the new the indoor parking uh with that use of Tiff you know we Leverage The developers investment we had them build us the parking garage underneath the building at their expense in the past the city made those Investments um so that we were able to limit the the debt risk to the city by leveraging the developer investment and that's we've used that model for Tiff and A din on several projects and we put a piece of exempt property back on the tax roles after 40 plus years right all right you want me to go to commissioner Pierce you want commissioner Jackson yeah I um so I agree with everything that was just said um starting from the answer that you gave to the question um but for me like the comparison is different and so that's that's one of the reasons this is is so complicated if if I compare which is better in the long run given our current circumstances is it better that we get a reduced amount of task capacity in two years right to the general fund versus 20 to 25 years from now and so I'm trying to compare that to and you're comparing that to the community benefits right and I it's there's nothing wrong with that but that's kind of when when I think about this I I um that's one of the things that I wonder I think that's a key question really is is the weight worth it yeah M Mr chair uh one thing I would say about about what uh commissioner Pierce just said is it's important to remember that there's not a new Revenue stream that goes directly to the the general fund it goes we increase our tax capacity which means that we have the possibility of offsetting our Levy our Levy would be slightly smaller around everybody in the community but it wouldn't in and of itself create new dollars Jackson um yes thank you so I I don't know if this will work uh but what I'd like to see is one of the things that we we haven't talked a whole lot about is this park maintenance fee and that's a big deal to me um Centennial leges needs repair we're going to be bringing more you know every year it needs maintenance and we're going to be bringing more people into the area and as a result uh one of the elements of this Tiff potential Tiff deal is a park maintenance fee so I'd like to request um from Mr Ellers if Poss or Mr anut at Ellers you get that lot I'm sure um uh if let's assume the purchase price is the that that we're talking about is the value of the land and let's assume instead of this project it gets a complete renovation so let's double the purchase price as a new value if you could run the existing tax numbers not right now but I I think this is would help me what the tax flow would be this purchase price doubled and the taxes that would be generated from that which is people talk about incremental change instead of transformational change so incremental is they put a second story on here and repave the lot so we'll just say we're going to double the value of what it is now what taxes at our current tax rate would flow from that and then compare contrast that with the um annual fee paid for this park maintenance because I think that's kind of an Apples to Apples so the the taxes that would flow to the city would obviously go to the general fund it wouldn't go straight to Centennial Lakes but I'm very concerned about making sure that Centennial Lakes continues to be maintained in a worldclass fashion the way we've been doing it and this is a new Revenue stream for that so that's kind of Revenue stream to revenue stream I would I would really like to see that um uh at some point we're happy to do that we've done those kind of comparisons before um and just you know the starting point today is uh today the site pays zero in park fees um um so any dollar above zero is a is a win in that category but we can readily put that comparison together for you thank you I think we can defer that is just a conversation we can table for two weeks sure yeah the uh the second item was a proposed resolution to take action on the Tiff District um that action would be conditioned upon the city council's Final action it's this is just one of the many steps in the process but we can readily defer that to the next meeting um we're right now we're aiming to based on where we are with the negotiations the contract preparation we're aiming on uh early November to have final approvals on this project and so by pushing this item off today that's not a problem okay Mr Brahma can you come up is that you know we we've got people that have uh other things they need to do after 9:00 and you too I'm sure is that does that work okay for you too um if we if we lay postpone this conversation for two weeks and then come back okay thank you thank you uh do you need any kind of a motion on that Mr nondorf or just it doesn't seem like we would because we haven't we haven't taken any action or asked to the table anything so all right let's uh anything else for to go to the order oh I just one thing I thought of is that the leue of amendment voters has a uh uh a presentation by uh somebody from the state at the uh Senior Center at 10:00 this morning on tax increment financing how it works in Minnesota so uh if you're interested in hearing from one of the people from the state uh uh I would assume a a statutorily based presentation on what Tiff is all about you can go over to the senior center at 10:00 at Grand View for that presentation does anybody else have anything for the go to the order here Mr executive director only to let you know that you'll get a first look at your proposed HRA meeting schedule at next week's council meeting yeah and you got I just wanted to say that having been in a meeting with you I think it was yesterday I like your beard better today than yesterday thank thank you for looks good looks good um all right uh so um is there a motion to adjourn so moved second and a motion by commissioner uh Jackson second by commissioner AG to adjourn to meeting of the H this Thursday October 10th 2024 any further discussion those in favor of adjournment say I I I opposed carried We Stand adjourned