##VIDEO ID:icnJKf1nJOg## I United States of America to the repblic for which it stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all good evening everyone this is the September 7 19 2024 meeting of the a haror City municipal land use board and in compliance with the open public meetings act adequate notice of this meeting was provided by posting on the city hall bulletin board and by notification to our newspapers record and I ask the secretary to make this announcement call of the record please yes and Donna a roll call if you would please may CH Patty here Mr timber here Mr Peterson here Mr Walker here Mr G Mr mullo here Dennis McKennon here Michael McKennon here Mr Keener here Mr fr here Carl goaf here Ryan McAn here and secretary here U we have minutes of July 16th meeting been circulated make a motion there second second in favor please say I I anyone oppose thank you folks no resolutions new business business in formal review Benjamin rizley 2058 Liverpool Avenue did you first want that anybody who's here with regard to meant to do that would you make the announcement sure um anybody who's here with regard to what had been an agenda item with regard to ordinance number 11 of 2024 which is an amending which is to amend the Redevelopment plan for the Gateway Rehabilitation area to permit a contractor vehicle storage as a conditional use uh which was going to be presented the nature of it was going to be presented by NAD Davis and Goldstein um for review and recommendation to the city council that's not going to be heard tonight so if anybody's here with particular interest in that and only that and wanted to go home and watch some Jeopardy you can do that now and was there anything that you would like to say regarding this informal application yes um so the next and only other agenda item is the informal review by Benjamin F rizley Jr 2058 Liverpool Avenue City U I want to do a couple things because informal reviews are not really common things so a little background because and for anybody who's here I'm relatively new to the board as Council I think I my first appearance here was in March if I'm not mistaken um so I want to do a few things number one I want to let the board know the nature of an informal review because I know different attorneys give different instruction in that regard an informal review is only something that's possible for the planning board so anybody who here is only um uh let me say it this way it's a planning board matter so if you're not considered part of the planning board which is another discussion you can't be involved number one number two we have a letter here that was presented to council which really should have been presented to this board um and because an informal review is not something where there's a presentation made evidentiary nobody sworn it's not testimony it's just information to get feedback from the board with the great guidance of your engineer um but because it's been submitted to council and they've shipped it over to to your board I want to read it into the record um dear mayor City members and to whom it may concern this letter is being written on behalf of the residents below of the 22100 blocks of Liverpool and Philadelphia Avenues it is to V it is to voice our adamant opposition to the letter sent by Mr Ben rizle dated 33123 requesting a subdivision variance um of his Lots which is a little inartfully written but I'll explain that in a minute of his Lots located at 2058 Liverpool avue Avenue to build another home we either built or purchased our homes in what is referred to as the egg Harper city Gold Coast because it is because of its seclusion the space SL land surrounding our homes the neighborhood was built with larger Lots giving separation between the homes the separation affords each resident a level of privacy seclusion and quiet the requests of Mr Ben rley Jr is contradictory to the aesthetic and continuity and design of our neighborhood the variance request We Believe will potentially lower property values of our existing neighborhood those closest to the proposed subdivision would incur greatest impact of The Proposal we therefore respectfully request that any such variance be denied now and in the future to preserve our neighborhood and its seclusion in its efforts we also request that we are notified of any further proposals or meetings regarding these Lots in writing and or the phone numbers listed below and it's signed by and please forgive me if anybody's here and I'm not reading um some of the script clearly lorri and Stefan Otto Susan and Hal Luger Bernard Noble Edgar Butler Rebecca Von fosner Denise calabri Kristen Martinez Bruce Gardner so again I apologize if I'm reading any of the names wrong that is also not evidentiary the um the board is not allowed to take um testimony through writing even if it's notorized so just know that but because it was submitted to council it's a public record I wanted you to be aware of that the next thing we've only been at least I've been provided with an application um it is requesting with regard to um tax map block 225 27 um owned by Benjamin F risland Jr and I'm assum is that is that you hello sir um whose address is 2058 Liverpool and then the second page indicates that the pre present use of the premises is as a single family residence and it's my understanding that's a permitted use Ryan right in the zone um the experts who will submit a report is the applicant who is an architect yeah right and he's requesting an informal review and the only information I had I don't have any kind of site plan um indicates that the variance that will variances that will be requested in the future if an application is made is to have two dwellings per acre with sewers and with regard to minimum site area which is uh required minimum is 3.2 acres and then in number 15 on your appli the description is application for minor subdivision which this is not this is not an application for that this is an informal review of a potential future application he's seeking relief from the 3.2 minimum for minimum Site Area so there can be erected two dwelling units per acre with sewers and the proposed minor subdivision exceeds the required setbacks and minimum lot size area uh minimum lot area requirement for the Zone there is water and sewer and that's the extent of this so when I was speaking to Ryan when we got here this evening I asked him was there any site plan I didn't I didn't understand from what I have um the extent of so how many how much land there was how much um how many Lots were being subdivided because my concern is before we get into the informal review if that's going to happen is that the statute which is the state law municipalities have ordinances the state has statutes um the statute the state law that talks about informal reviews is 40 colon 55d -10.1 informal review of developers concept plan which states at the request of a developer which is the applicant the planning board shall Grant an informal review of a concept for development for which the developer intends to prepare and submit an application for development the amount of any fees of such we don't need talk about fees the developer shall not be bound by any concept plan for which review is requested and the planning board should not be bound by any such review okay so let's first talk about what an formal review isn't I always forgive me I always for you guys like have my back to you an informal review is and forgive me is always a dangerous thing for an attorney because as humans we want to hear what somebody has to say we want to give feedback we as humans whether it be the board or the applicant or the public we tend to hear what we want to hear we cherry pick and that's not a bad thing because if if like something that's our strength if we don't like something that's a weakness in our argument or our position so as an attorney guiding a board it's always touchy because you don't want your client which for me it's it's you people you don't want to say something to an applicant that sounds like yes that's good and then they get their Hoopes up they prepare their application in light of the positive things you've said anything that you don't like they're going to leave out and that could negatively hurt them from the applicant's point of view what you say can impact how they proceed but what I just read says no matter what happens tonight this gentleman can come back with a completely different application he's not bound by it you're not bound by it with that said my big concern about this is because we're only dealing with one lot that the applicant the potential applicant is seeking to maybe split into Lots is purely a zoning board application if it if it involved the site plan if it was more Lots or if it wasn't residential in nature he'd have to have a site plan component in the application and then it would be before the planning board because if you have a site plan and variances that aren't use not a use variance he could be here but I don't see a any statutory Authority that allows somebody to come in for an informal review before the zoning board which is what I think this is if you were just a lay person I don't know that I would ask you this question but I'm not a subis we got this recorded don't interrupt don't talk over because we need the we need with respect we need the recording really clear but because you are an architect and you understand the nature of this type of of proceeding how are you you before the planning board asking for anal rather the zoning board asking for an informal review are joint planning zone board we are but isn't the nature of that joint board if it's only a zoning matter aren't we asking the mayor and who's our class three aren't we asking Mr Timbers to step down well no but and and I'm willing I'm more than willing I'm happy to because this always fascinates me isn't the nature of a joint board it's two boards but because of the size of particular towns in New Jersey and the difficulty we have getting members we make a joint board so different members can sit on both boards but isn't this really two boards correct we've got the joint board but Mr Timbers and the mayor really aren't on the zoning board would you agree with that yes so once we tell them to go away go home watch Jeopardy you're before the zoning board how do we do this before the zoning board and and I'm not saying that I'm right no listen it's an informal and going through this for about two years of Ryan back and forth and we're trying to come up with a way my lot was two lots previously and then when I refinance they put the one lot so I want it back the two lots that's what I bought I want back the two lots well that's not a zoning board matter that not I don't know what kind of board member it is or whatever it is I just want to get back up two L was when I purchase it I appr here that shows it was to L from the from your account well no no no the public can speak later but it's not as Judge Judy says a tea party where we have a conversation um without knowing about your two lot one lot issue um let's have a little chat about that so I can become informed when you purchased the the land you're saying that it was was two Parcels on the tax map it said anything lot 225 lot five additional lot six or it was lot six there's lot would and again this is only Devil's Advocate so I can flesh out what the real issues are um but would you agree and this is where and no offense intended at all to a non- lawyer at all um I want to make sure that we're both educated you probably know a whole B lot about this I have no idea about um but with the legal issues it's really important to make a distinction about what Lots mean we have words that we use that to me mean one thing and to other professionals mean another clearly on a tax map if there's a line and there's a lot A and A Lot B there's two taxable lots for an attorney a land use attorney when you have a parcel of land whether you've got lines dividing them or not if they do not comply in all aspects with the Zone requirements doesn't the doctrine of merger mean that they're one loot for the sake of development consideration that true okay so like I said if the tax map says there were there was a line I don't get into the engineering aspect all I know is if you need a variance to put two houses on this parcel that's two taxable Lots doesn't mean they're two lots for from a development standpoint okay and I'm not I am not saying that you don't have a valid application but I think that you're really before the zoning board and the law doesn't provide for informal review of zoning issues I just want to find information that would be different from an informal review and if you have questions for the board I will sit here till 11:00 answering them not as your attorney but to provide any member of the public and and and land owner in an haror City information so do I tell you what the because it was two lots most houses most properties there were made up of more than one lot I get that happens all the time all over the state it does and and unfortunately mine is big enough my house would be on one lot by itself so that's why I wanted to do lot back two if you look at the area but don't say that because they were never two they might be taxed as different numbers but they're not the description was as one correct it was 150 by 200 do you agree that the person who sold you the property whenever that was whether it was last year or 10 years ago could not have sold you the lot on which your house sits and the other lot to somebody else no right okay it would have been sold as one and isn't that the Crux of what we're really discussing yes now that's not to say because I have no skin in this game right that's not to say that you might not be successful on a zoning board application for the two variances you've identified as needing which is which are I should say relief from City's ordinance 7 170 72. c4b two dwelling units per acre with sewer and then the second is uh ordinance 170 72. C5 minimum sight area because you need 3.2 acres and you have how much it's under an acre I think it is okay but the thing there is we're in an area of Redevelopment correct I'll let I'll let address that sure so it's a little confusing because the Redevelopment or the zoning map which reflects the Redevelopment area shows a boundary which encompasses his and other properties but when you go to the actual Redevelopment plan it enumerates a specific list of blocks and lots and then later in the plan um indicates that privately owned lots that are not included in the list of the a carbon North Rehabilitation area May to be developed and in accordance with the r 32c uh cluster zoning found in section 17072 c which is where we just read those statues or the those that language from um of the developments when connected to a public sewer system without sewers lot shall be subject to R 32c controls there is no intent to require a property order to become part of the aarbon north Rehabilitation area by private property to a redeveloper um section before that kind of says that the redeveloper can acquire private parcels and request that they be incorporated into the rehabilitation area but that's not uh guaranteed it would be a council's discretion so um when Ben first brought this to me a while ago I sort of highlighted like I understand you're within the boundaries of the h& in the zoning map but when you go to you know what effectively as the rules for that zone you're not on the list and it says her property is not on the list you're governed by R3 2C um hence the two variances correct that's I would have to to um to council and ask you to do a Redevelopment make that revelop that seems like a long way to go around I don't know any other way if you go if you subdivide then you got to go in front of pine lands and pine lands takes forever if you do an Area Redevelopment like the house across the street from me that they did which is an 80 by 150 that was an Area Redevelopment correct so I went back and I honestly think that that was done um in error looking at it because that house um is not specifically on the list um and probably should have been treated the same way but it it made it through um the city through their City's application process and it made it through the pine lands through their application process because they issued a letter that it was consistent um and let's let's for because there's clearly a number of people here more than we usually have right at least in my experience what the NS going on too sure of course why don't you explain what the nature of having a Redevelopment area is why do we have them in certain towns sure so Redevelopment areas and Redevelopment plans are intended to um further or or make more likely that would development will occur somewhere the ehn the a Harbor North Rehabilitation area was originally developed um with the Cedar Creek High School created not developed yeah that's true that's true let's let's because I want all the Layman to understand right because words words are important yeah now development would imply it was actually developed coincidentally it was developed with the high school but so this Redevelopment area was created yeah it was it was created really at the Inception of the high school project it allowed for um sewer extension to this area a pump station which is built out at Li big street um all the water sewer infrastructure to be installed there um and Revis zoning standards that would permit development which would not have been permitted by the prior zoning so essentially it allowed for a subdivision um with much smaller Lots what you see in the AC Corb North Rehabilitation area or the the neighborhoods of C Creek I should say um that development could not have Cur occurred without this Redevelopment plan so the city did a study determined that this area was in need of Redevelopment um went through all of the statutory processes for that went to Pine lands who ultimately determined that the plan was consistent with their standards um and then beun effectuating the plan by um seeking out a redeveloper and having them engage and and um purchase property and start the development under the rules of the Redevelopment plan so the the the reason that the Redevelopment plan is such a powerful tool is it allows you to craft unique Zoning for that specific area normally you're governed by whatever the zoning map says if it's R32 which most of this area was prior to this plan that's a residential lot on 3.2 uh or on I think it was on 3.2 Acres which is effectively a city block um this Redevelopment plan allowed for totally different standards for that area which allowed for the development of the high school and the surrounding homes surrounding neighborhood so that's that's sort of why it's a useful tool it allows you to give customized zoning to try to allow for development of property that has a history of being underdeveloped or underutilized so do you think with what we've shared together not as an informal review but as an informational Roundtable do you think it might be something appropriate for Mr rizley to go to City Council to ask them to consider this lot as part of the Redevelopment plan or do you think it's more appropriate I have my opinions but I'm not going to go there yet or do you think it's more appropriate for Mr rizley to make a very generic run-of-the-mill I'd like a VAR two variances sure um so I we probably a year ago came to this fork in the road um and I I sort of said like you have two options you can go and ask city council to be incorporated into the Redevelopment plan um which you know going to Pinelands and all of that would probably not you know I I don't think it would raise any red flags for them um because it the plan speaks to the incorporation of uh private properties at you know with their consent um so I I think that process would probably Advance um the other route I mean I understand his reluctance to go to the pilin commission um it is usually a long and arduous process well let me stop you there and I don't mean to interrupt but I need to stop you there because one of the jobs of any land use lawyer is to make very clear this theme and we most often see it when developers come in and say you're going to get another rable that is not a basis for any type of relief it doesn't matter in fact it's contrary to the law if somebody says oh let me have a variance to build this x here because right now you'd only get so many dollars in uh tax revenue but if I do this it's going to be a lot more that's you know when we go through the law with regard to what you can base your opinion on not only is that not appropriate it's forbidden so no disrespect again to Mr rizley we cannot give him feedback about what the proper procedure is based on what's easy and what's less time consuming or what's you know I get I get Pine lands as arduous I've got my issues with pine lands like the next guy not as much as I do with d but that's a whole another conversation that involves tail hour um but we can't be discussing the appropriate procedure agreed regarding this application or any application as to whether or not you know do we want to go to Pinelands is it going to take a long time it's just not part of the discussion yeah that's that's effectively not our problem I me I can relate personally to his reluctance it's not our problem we're not supposed to be part of a process that skirts what I do consider consider to be very very overbearing laws in New Jersey we can't be part of how do we get around it to benefit one person because if we're doing that for in this case Mr rizley agree I don't know who's here for or against it doesn't matter we can't advocate for either side soe like I said we we sort of came to a fork on the road and it was here's your two paths if you want to pursue a council you're certainly welcome to do that if you'd like to go the subdivision route U and and just to give a little um back history on the lock and consolidation I check the tax maps back to 1999 which is what I have readily available to me and um even back to 1999 the lot is listed is 150 by 200 with a single designator as five and then two the way that we 150 by 200 um the way that we handle lot consolidations in haror city is that we list the prior lot numbers we continue to list them there just for reference but the actual Lot number is listed differently sort of that's that's his lot the five and six are listed just for reference because sometimes the records recorded the wrong way or whatever once a Zone yeah cons Z right once Zone requirements are established the lot lines on undeveloped lots are only historical in nature right so I it is my opinion for the board and to the chair specifically that this is purely a zoning board matter and there is no such thing as an informal review for a zoning board matter because what this gentleman wants is for you to consider his sworn testimony and his exhibits in the context of a hearing you consider the sworn testimony and the exhibits and then the public gets to speak and then you get to decide when you're just talking about may I I'm going to make something else up so we don't sound like we're beating up on Mr rard which I don't want um thank you I really appreciate how gentlemenly you're being um you know can I I I know Mommy said I needed to eat dinner before I get dessert but I kind of eat almost all of it it's not the way we do it and I know that might be a bad analogy but can I get some fire sure we have inals here I know you're new maybe the last person allows something happen that wasn't allow but in the past we've heard many of it wasn't to make a decision it was to get a general feel for the idea so that way they didn't waste their time and money trying to pursue something right and I think that's more of a courtesy to our residents that we're not making them spend money that they won't recruit back and they can come get some general questions answered get our general feels to what we may or may not be interested in so what's different about this and I just because this seem like we get a lot of explanation a lot of things that we've never gotten in the past and I'm confused as to why okay because and I'm sorry I didn't make this clear earlier um you're really two boards if Mr Timbers and the mayor were not here I'm looking at a planning board I understand that okay you can have informal reviews come before a planning board there's no provision in the law for an informal review on a purely zoning board issue okay this and Mr Ridley's application if it were an application rather than kind of coming in chat right um he's here for an informal review on a zoning board matter there's no provision for that in the law so the P this board has not handled itself stuff correctly we don't know oh I can't say that I don't know if all your inform reviews the last we've been a combined board for 5 years were strictly a zoning we never had you are not a see and and the statute I believe is really hard to understand you're a combined board for the city's convenience if you had a planning board and a zoning board they' normally be two separate groups of people it's really hard to get people like you guys who donate your time important it's two sets of professionals that's the real Pier that's the call let me tell you something Mr I love you I I do I love your perspective on everything um uh believe me what you're paying me is not breaking anybody's bank I don't know about Ryan but I'd much rather after my daughter's 4day wedding uh balcon Alia this weekend I'd rather be home in my pajamas watching Jeopardy um I think my hourly rate is 175 and I don't charge for the travel and it literally takes me longer to get here understand I'm just saying but listen we do need the record clear I and if we go down to I'd like to say Mickey and Minion but it's still dark it's killing me we'll go down and we'll have a beer and french fries which is my favorite food after the meeting um it's it's not a savings it's you can't get the bodies I Def One 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 you got 10 people here what's the zoning board seven or nine seven seven find seven more people I'll give you a month try to dig up seven more bodies to come another night I'm just trying to understand and you might have had other informal reviews in the last 10 how long have you been on the board 10 years okay in the last 10 years let's say you've had 10 informal reviews I doubt you've had that many but let's say it's 10 I hope they were all planning board matters okay nice to hope no I'm serious I mean I don't know your prior counsil that well but I'm not about to throw him under the bus not that I have a problem throwing lawyers under the bus that's my third SEC full-time job I have no respect for a lot of attorneys mistakes may have been made but I don't know that they were try to understand y right now this is a zoning board matter there's no provision in the law for an informal review for a gentleman who just wants two variances to do something that right now your ordinances do not your ordinance does not permit so Carol this is this has never brought up this has never been brought up to us and us as a board regardless of whether we're zoning or planning when we just assumed or I assumed that an informal I didn't know that there was a distinction that there was no informal for a zoning matter we we didn't know that we we were let me this far I don't think anybody's going to arrest any of us we let him put on an informal an informal review my job is to make sure you know what the rules are if you want to let this gentleman talk for 10 minutes and these kind people who have been sitting here after I told this gentleman to put his hand down if and let them speak who's there's no firing squad for that but there's no provision in the law for it that's all I'm saying well and either way we do know about the informal that there's no action taken in anything that we say or anything that they say is not on the record and it's not testimony uh I think Mr rizley is just here tell tell him which way he should go if if we can do that no you cannot do that well give him his options in and say pick one from col or one absolutely not I I will stop you if you do that this is what an informal review is this gentleman's got 50 acres and he wants to put in a little shopping center and he's going to need maybe eight variances and maybe 15 waers would be dramatic right for illustration purposes before he starts paying an engineer a planner a traffic guy an architect he wants to come in and say I've heard you guys want to have a colonial theme to this area and I'm thinking there's a neighborhood there you really want in your ordinance all this lighting I'm thinking maybe not so much lighting cuz I don't want to piss off the PE well that was probably not appropriate on the record my mother would not like that I don't want to aggravate the neighbors these are the waivers I'd like to come in with and here's the traffic design which is not quite and here's the up the snuff and here years the parking is going to be a little less because the intensity is not going to be there I'm going to make Ryan happy what do you think the plantings um the the um facade what do you want it to look like we would have never gotten that specific at an informal but that's what an informal is about an informal is not before I have to spend the time and money going through Pinelands tell me how you feel about this variant because what are you left to do saying yeah I don't have too much of a problem with that that's not what an informal review is that's not what you're supposed to be saying an informal review is to talk about planning board plan planning how should we make this look I don't want to I'm not cutting Corners I want this to fit into your Zone plan intent your aesthetic desires it's not look before I spent a lot of time and money on a zoning board variance application how do you feel about it because now you're being put in a position of saying one thing or another that's not what that's not what an informal review is it's not your opinion about Aesthetics or traffic design or should we have the big Le and Cyprus here or should we put the low as alens there you impress that I know it's tall and left big um this is you're left with nothing in a zoning board application informal review but do you think I'll get this and what if you say yeah I think so and you say no I don't think so and you've got half of the the gy here Gallery saying yeah he's my friend I think you should get it the other half is are you kidding me I'm going there's going to be an Insurrection it's a pure variance application that this gentleman needs to make what's there to discuss without formal testimony plans that the public is seeing things like that okay so how are we going to proceed then as I said as an attorney my advice has to be there's no provision in law for an informal review to for his any board application but I hear that he's here I see that he's here you've got members of the public that are interested there's no firing squad nobody's going to come and arrest us there's no violation of anybody's constitutional rights but it's a bad precedence to set precedent to set so on on my personal opinion I never wanted anything to do with any informal applications and and they kind of just happened uh because they were requested and I don't know if our ordinances or whatever either prevented or allowed them it's not the ordinance it's the state law okay so uh we were never charging for them and we decided to attach a fee to it and I I don't know what they did to change that Ryan could speak to it because I he knows the state law says you have to charge for it yeah we we went through the whole fee structure yeah because it it was a bit dated so we updated the you have to charge for an informal View and this gentleman P jum to make he need his money back no question but do you have to give an informal review you you have to for a planning board matter there is no provision for a pure zoning board matter so do we call for a vote amongst the board you don't vote on your lawyer's advice we could vote on whether to hear this or not right Point yes and he here's your vote we've heard Carol's advice we're either going to hear it and you vote on that or we're not going to hear it you vote on that op you vote on my legal my opinion is as you said there's public here and they they'd like to be heard sure Mr grizzley would like to State his his side of it um I would be okay to hear it even though I know what you're saying okay it's clear but um you know there some that I'd say you guys are crazy and I'm leaving if you why why waste everybody's time they're already here and if they want to speak let him speak there there's no formal action we can take and the less said the better Carl then at the end of this how's it end I mean the other everybody goes home him saying what the heck the other the other informals we all gave an opinion yes but like you just said if we give an opinion you're kind of locked into that opinion if the applicant comes back you're not legally but as humans we know when we give our opinion to fall out of that yeah when you're dealing with something like a site plan and you say you know I really think we really ought to put a z is the sand around here we saw the last plantings of the guy he put in road to dendrons they all died you guys can vote on that not vote on that but voice your opinion of what you'd like to see to get around some of the be uh waivers that that a developer might want with something like this what is there to say yes or no yeah that's the dangerous part because if you say no the man leaves defeated and what's he going to do if you say yes OB assuming that this side of the room is not for this they're going to say what are you doing you you know what are you doing there's no winning here and that's why there's no such thing as an informal review before a zoning issue it's a yes or no it's a chocolate and vanilla thing they either meet the criteria of 40 55 uh what um um a c variance were they don't right so yes or no but that's my I've gone on too long I've made my point three [Music] times I think was very good point you made and so I wanted to get in front of just see what you do because there's other lots I'm assuming there's other Lots in that area that are areas of Redevelopment which are less than the lot that I was going to give about but if I have to do if I have to do subdivision and it just isn't isn't work doing I just wanted to see what I could do why I came here if I could do no I understand completely sure so the residents need to know that there are other areas in our our development that are on smaller lots and that are smaller houses than what we have well if we're going to go forward with the the potential applicant speaking I think he needs to stand up say what he wants to say and then we'll give other people the same chance well car hold on no no no no no no cross talking any action further that he would take whether it's an application for subdivision or variances or whatever there there's going to be a meeting there's going to be public notice and all this testimony will be given at that meeting absolutely okay I think we're muddying the waters by trying to go any further here tonight I don't want it to turn into a pissing contest not that I don't want to hear what the public has to say and but I because I do want to hear what the public has to say but we we usually did not have any public participation and any of our other formal things here and I don't think we're prepared to manage that uh and I appreciate that we have the drawings and all that but in light of new information that we have now as a board and a better understanding of the informal process uh I don't know if it's up to me or not but I don't think we should proceed any further with this I don't want to proceed okay right can I ask that just a general question Clarity here M so your reference is 3 32 zone or 32c yes where does that end and where does the new development that was approved begin so down Camp Street housing was approved another neighborhood development was approved yes by this board many years ago where does that end versus where that 32 picks up for my own future referen on the zoning map it's list Ed as e n and it's the a Harbor North Rehabilitation area which includes the high school and a bunch of the surrounding area um it kind of meanders down so it comes off of Hamburg Down K Street uh like half a block because those are the garden lots and then it juts over to Kepler and then it goes up to Norfolk and then it juts over to lesing and then it goes over to Washington and then it goes to Li big and then that extends down to Philadelphia so it's not it doesn't go north no doesn't go north of K it it does go north of k um once you get past or I'm sorry once you get uh sort of southeast of halfway through the garden lot it extends one block past can and then two blocks past can and then three blocks past can on the North side yes yeah towards towards the lake right mhm yeah the h& extends out to there that's all part of be two right yeah yeah two two three it's been kicked around a couple times but yes um but again only the the lots that are specifically enumerated in the Redevelopment plan are included even though others are within the boundary on the Zod map okay if that makes sense are there other Lots in that develop right there that are consider Redevelopment so from what I understand and not having the opportunity to go through every single blocking lot here uh I believe that all of the Lots in this Redevelopment plan are City owned so I do not believe there are any privately held lots that were included in this um that would be all the ones that were were foreclosed on yes yeah when the plan was being developed there were some but at this point they're all City owned correct yeah so like the property that was across the street from us that's 80 by 150 that was City own property as well before it wasn't it I believe it was I think the City auctioned that property and they auction and then the Builder put a house on correct there's another lot I'm I'm going to I I'm so sorry to do this that's right I'm just trying I'm trying to but here's the problem we're either going to do this or we're not because I can't tell them to put their hands down while you get information from the engineer and you you're making points about well but this happen that happened I mean I hear what's going on and I'm already not doing I'm just want everybody to know we can't we're either doing this or we're not doing this yeah we don't have I just want to know there's other places in our neighborhood I know but we're either doing this or we're not doing this okay okay thank okay so then we're done okay so there'll be no further action on this informal review the only other announcement I want to make about this and this may be unpopular with some people but the letter here and I'm sure these are all lovely lovely people but the letter presented to council was we also request that we are notified of any further proposals or meetings regarding these Lots here's the problem for and I don't know any of you I'm sure you're as lovely as this gentlemen it's an unfair and inappropriate position to be putting the city in because if everything's posted on websites and bulletin boards and if you want to find out if something's going on you need to call in you need to look at the city's website or wherever else these notices are published and then the newspaper who are your newspapers uh the press the press and because it's how unfair is it to Mr rizley that every time an applicant comes with an unpopular application all the people who are against it they get special calls so the letters here but anybody who may be here that I called out their name you need to make sure that you're looking at the newspapers the website the bulletin boards so how about the 200 foot rule well of course if an application is made anybody if all these people they're going to get noticed right yeah yeah if they're within 200 but but for to ask city council which has no control over this board to let them know that's really inappropriate and that I I can't permit that I'm not getting so Carol whether it's a zoning or planning application there would be a 200 foot notice of course question Donna do you uh post this on the website also and the Facebook page because that's where most people get their information from and not the hamton Gazette it goes on to the city website puts it on there on board um not on Facebook I would suggest Jody can also do that no I was going to suggest that at our next um rework if I'm here um put social media Mr might make sure that that doesn't happen um social media is becoming more and more popular with with towns because that is where people are getting their notices and as any government entity our job is to make sure that it gets out as broadly as possible so newspapers aren't seeing their demise and uh I would have suggested that at our next Rew I don't know how you can depend on that it has to be a letter sent to the residents that are in the zone 200 Fe right but if any of the people who have in this letter asked at city council let them know M if this application becomes uh comes up again that can't happen they're outside the if they're outside yeah they're going to yeah if you're 200 ft you're going to get a written notice by certified in regular mail or hand delivery corre yeah okay Mr grizzley I'm sorry we that's all right it was a good learning experience I'll say it again I thank you for being such a gentleman about it okay and folks thank you for your attendance and participation I'm sorry that and I'm sorry I told you to put your hand in okay moving on any old business any Council report I'll just take any questions if you guys have any questions I mean I know we have some movement on the movie studio out there I did get a a visual on some architectural designs just a looks very nice uh Jonathan has also contacted us to see if we can meet Ryan and I with him and um I guess someone he's working with just go with his professionals to try to the right way and access yeah to try to hash out some um landfill issues and things like that um what else missing something anything else whatever you guys if you have a question nobody I know we're not hearing this ordinance proposed what was where is this property it's the Gateway AC yeah um there is a company who um has utility trucks that sort of dispatched to emergency situations all over the all over the East Coast they wanted to use it for vehicle storage um I was out sick while it was discussed um at Council and the language was really Broad and I thought would leave the city open to um some things that you probably wouldn't want to see at that site so I made a request to uh the prospective redeveloper to you know tighten up that language so that it was something that we would more reflect what we discussed when we met with them um and we sort of asked them if they could provide revised language we could consider that here and continue move it forward um and they were not able to prepare that in time or chose not to prepare that in time for this um so instead they asked if we could just sort of kick it down a month and hear next month an address I wasn't sure exactly which yeah it's it's the AC site technically it's the Gateway um Rehabilitation area across the street part of that Gateway it is the Gateway reabilitation area is larger than just the AC property but um it was just the AC property is what what the application just I I was only confused because I know they parking the structure vehicle trucks cross the street forever and I was wondering why it would come in front of us now if they were doing it well they they weren't allowed to do it that's the that's the problem and code enforcement really yeah and there was a couple of year span where South state had their equipment there while they were doing 330 project like a staging area correct so it was allowed as a staging area as part of that project then a whole bunch of other construction equipment cropped up across the street at the Acy site and sort of back and forth um but yeah none of none of that is permitted and the way that the language read for the ordinance literally just said storage of vehicles and construction equipment they said no that's what we got a problem with for the last couple of years let's tighten that up so it reflects what we talked about and not just a broad category of storage um so that's you know that's the request we made back to them is I'd like to revise this ordinance language so it's more clear and more precise what we look any other Council comments we do we do have a couple GR grants we're working on just so you're not surprised but we did get a recreation grant for the pickle ball court um and we did finish the other Recreation Grant project which is the Ada um playground that we just did at uh the they call it the orange playground but it's um George morof Memorial playground actually and um we have uh how much for City Hall 400 4 4 4 50,000 we're going to uh redo some Ada issues at City Hall bathroom entrance yeah the bathrooms is the big one but um also the counter uh at the police at the tax office at um the clerk's office at the building department um all of those counters are not Ada accessible so all those will be upgraded um doors uh light fixtur other things all all the Incorporated that project and we have the grant is $400,000 for the lake to make it more Ada compliant hopefully Ryan's going to have something on that soon Ada upgrades at the bathroom there yeah we're going to design now um Ada parking spaces Ada circulation around the lake over two spillways um ADA Bathroom upgrades um so yeah that's and then well that'ss here tonight but we do have uh two $1 million grants for uh tree maint maintenance around town and plantings and such things like that nette you want is it okay if nette talks we're having public Commerce next so that's that's big that's big what else am I missing Ryan I know we have a lot of stuff how about the bike path the bike path yeah I just we just uh went through that with um CME it's Pinelands again but it looks like it's going through what's your last word you got so the the last meeting that we had was with the county um the they came up with using pervious Pavement in the shoulders or beyond the shoulders of the road for the bike path expansion um primarily to meet water quality requirements CU now you need to use two bmps or two structures to meet water quality requirements so they need to filter it through perious treatment and then bring it into an underground infiltration trench um that was really the only way to fit two types of infrastructure there the county u balked a little bit because they don't have the equipment necessary to maintain perious pavement um but the city does so the County asked if the city would make a commitment to maintain that path um or that that prvious pavement by just running you guys have a vacuum sweeper truck the county sweepers are don't have a vacuum component um so they're not able to vacuum material out of the the perious paving so they they asked if the city would make a commitment to clean that prvious Paving up to four times a year um and that would allow for the usage of that since you know they couldn't commit to cleaning it if we could that they would allow but to be installed there so that's the last meeting we had was reped on that that probably 5 six weeks ago something like that um so my understanding is CME was then moving forward with the final design incorporating that to bring the Pinelands to get their approval and then we we have another uh discre two discretionary grants out um one for a pumper truck and what was the other one for something it was something to kyre to supplement to supplement the uh oh um development of snack snack standard Congressional Appropriations application for yeah significant improvements at the K to to sort of supplement what the city has already committed to to um the last thing I'll say is the one in 300 blocks Liverpool construction started um I want to say end the last week last Thursday um so if you see that those two blocks ripped up um the city is reconstrued those two blocks all new curve some new sidewalk um lets and then re construction I can't think anything else but I'm sure there's more stuff out there buffaloed BDA yeah we're we're applying for uh Grant to be a Brownville Redevelopment area and with that designation we uh we decided to look at um the Gateway um site which obviously has a lot of contamination it needs to be cleaned up and that designation will open up money to develop that area redevelop that area we provide incentives for businesses to come in and we're talking a lot of money so we could potentially develop that area the way we we've always wanted to but we're held hostage basically by you know circumstances and people that own it or whatever so you're talking about the acne sh it could yeah could it could be that and across the street the um shift Brothers remember that from years back right poast which is the gas station gas station front of the site all of those are in the Gateway re Rehabilitation area and they're all included in the Brownfield Redevelopment area and potentially it could go up a little bit ways towards Philly AV I think we discussed and then the other site is um the landfill the old the old uh land IND I'm sorry dump right I might get them mixed up but the old dump where it's in the industrial park and some of those lots um obviously can't be sold because there could be contamination on them so we're losing you know development there and then hopefully we'll be able to do something with a solar project that will benefit um the residents yeah in a lot of ways so Community Sol potentially yeah so there's a lot lot going on but um we've been pretty successful with the grants and what I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you Ryan what else were you saying about before the BDA no the um I've sort of always advised the city like you have landfills technically you're supposed to be doing stuff there but there's no you guys are exempt from all the enforcement actions so you can just kind of sit on it and not be in a hurry um because there's lots of money to do the investigations and there's not any money to do exactly so the most you can get is 25% so if you do $200,000 wor investigations that they'll pay for and find out you need a $4 million cleanup R the H for $3 million so um the Brownfield designation helps a lot because it increases the amount of money that you can get um there also increases incentives for the redevelopers um so that that was sort of always the key make sure you have the redeveloper lined up with the financial backing so that they can help ease whatever burden you find out you have um because it's it's kind a Pandora's Box situation right now you don't know how you know things are we suspect it's not so bad we have some testing for the 9s and whatever um so we don't think it's too bad but if you open that box and you know all of a sudden you find something need to clean up in a hurry you're left with the build so if you have a development partner um there that helps uh ease the financial break of the city so hopefully we'll have those tools to be able to do that y thank you ran thank you mayor okay uh public comments anyone I just wanted to talk a little bit about the just identify yourself [Music] foral we got several grants for trees I think I discussed this with you before um first grant is a Federal grant it's $1 million and that will address tree maintenance on our Avenues uh we got a second Grant from the state from the same pot of money which is the inflation reduction act um and that will address the streets so we have a lot of older trees on the streets I you know in the winter time you can see how they've been chopped up and they're all on their telephone wires and electric wires and so forth I don't know which came first if it was the electric that was in first or if it was a tree that was installed first but in any case I think a lot of those trees might get cut downam but there's room on the other side of the street where we can do replan things and stuff that Grant has a lot of money it's like $400,000 in it for replanting and 400,000 for mainten um at we're at and then we have a third Grant which is for training um and it's small Grant but it will allow anybody in the city who wants to attend training about arri culture to go to the New Jersey shade tree feder ation conference which is October 17th 16th and 17th or 17th and 18th it's a Thursday and Friday they moved it to Atlantic City so it's very convenient for for anybody to go uh so we have about six people going if anybody here is interested will there be chainsaw lessons we can lunch no chainsaw and you can learn all about trees and the legal ramifications of trees and things like that it's it's really good information and it's like they call it core training because it's very basic so if anybody's interested in that just let me know we can put you in there the the fee is kind of steeve it's a couple hundred dollars per person but we have this grant to pay for it so that's a good thing uh and then um the grants require several things happen first thing is that we need a tree inventory thei has been doing it for years and going out every two years and counting every tree and marking the condition of it and so forth however state of New Jersey expects it to be done by a professional so we're going going to go out for bids to for these companies that do these J inventories it will be comprehensive and it will come along with software program that can be utiliz in the building department the public works department and so forth and also we're trying to get a component to the public too that they can look up their tree the tree that's in front of their house and find out everything about it like how much oxygen it puts out and how much carbon it captures and how much water it sucks up ATR there's a lot a lot of information in there that these professionals will put together so once we have all that information then we can keep track of all our street trees the new trees that go in the trees that are trimmed um the goal of these tree programs is to maintain our healthy trees and the thir government is interested in creating shade so they're doing this all over the country1 billion just for trees was part of that inflation reduction act because it it helps so helps the environment to have trees and I just watched a um a webinar the other day it was the state Forester uh McDonald and he said that there's three three components you they want every person to be able to look out their window and see three trees they want public spaces within 300 meters yards whatever of a home so in other words anybody should be able to walk to a AP the park or we have you know lots of trees all over aity have a lake and then 300,000 I don't know if there was a third component but so the federal government feels trees are important when I saw oh there there was a grant available for maintenance I jumped on it because our trees are in very poor condition and I don't want to see us lose them because they do they are valuable and they're not just valuable MoneyWise they're valuable healthwise you know emotionally uh they trees help um reduce crime they help people shop more what trees are carrying guns now no they they they calm people down go sit outside go sit under a tree you know it reduces incidences of domestic violence and so forth so so for the next four years we going to be hearing a lot about trees anybody's interested let me know and uh we're in the process of trying to set up a meeting with some of the city employees to let them know exactly what's in the Grant and what we expect over the next couple years so TR um I got a call from one of my neighbors uh and they're terrorists uh their trees are underneath I I think it's a line for like cable TV like compacts and they were saying is there any way are going to be any programs that could trim those trees yeah probably the city city would have to do it because we're only addressing Street trees in our grants uh but you know training for we already half of our guys are out there Tri trees now they did one the other day take oneall that might be a utility issue they're responsible for people their they won't uh they won't do it well no cable company probably won't do it it's cable wire but if it was electric they're responsible for maintaining those trees and you know our Terraces are poor conditioned as it is there's I don't know what the rway is on the Terrace 30t how much 30 30 ft it's 30 ft wide oh it's 30t wide how much goes on private property what so normally ft from the sh yeah there normally the pavement is 16 to 20 ft wide and then there's only 5 to 7 feet on either side that's within the you know it's debatable it's it won't it's on the outside no it's on the outside of the garage but we you know we'll help anybody we can just you know give them my number and I will I'll not it I'll send it off to Keith and guys can go out there and turn it down what what people with um utility easements on their land have to understand is that for example if you have an electric wire easement the people whose property have butts under that the wires there they still own their property and the utility companies have um the right to come in the right to come in and keep the trees that grow under their wires that could interfere with their wires they they come in and they can hack up your trees you know people are always upset it looks terrible but the land owners still have the obligation to maintain any vegetation on their property so it doesn't violate any ordinances and to keep it looking the way they want that's a common that's a common problem you know that it's a misconception that the utility companies have to do certain things on a timetable there's a time people can Google that it's very interesting very interesting any further public comment I want did you update us on the try property Ryan what's going on there Dr try currently has a request in the city to update his Redevelopment plan because he has a Redevelopment plan which permits um the simultaneous uh cultivation of cannabis with building boats in that same building on that same site um his Redevelopment plan reflects uh prior state law which only allowed for the cultivation of medical use cannabis so his Redevelopment plan um doesn't reflect what his current request is so he we we drafted a uh revised ordinance to update it to reflect essentially what he would be doing now which is for all intents purposes the same thing he would have been doing had he actually moved forward with it six or seven years ago um but it reflects that the current state law is the fact that he' be growing it for recreational purpose and not for medical um so he has that request in but um the city has not taken action on it yet if they do it will come here for review and recommendation and then we go back to the city he's pretty far away that project yeah for for the building he's got I think building permits and things like that correct yes so it's pretty about that I don't doubt it he will have to clean up his yard to do that thought that was station or time that that is what was in the Redevelopment plan is once he were to advance a second use uh well if he were to abandon the boat use he would have to elim he would have to get rid of everything that was related to that use um I believe the Redevelopment plan allows for both simultaneously so I don't think he would have to get rid of all the boat molds and all that if he continued to do both things um I he'll have a dual purpose I I believe that's what his current Redevelopment plan we approved it to purpose but I'm pretty confident that we approved that with a condition that if he to open up that second purpose yes he would clean up that yard he's got walls built he's got all the electric down the grow lights I mean he's well as far as I know he's not operating because I don't think he has a City license he certainly doesn't have Landes approvals um so yeah I haven't I mean the Redevelopment plan's five or six years old I haven't gone back and read it but I do recall what you do that he was required to clean up the site in order to advance with the Redevelopment plan um so we'll have to revisit all those Provisions um as we entertain it at city council question indoor yes any other comments from the board motion to adjourn all in favor please say I [Music] [Music] we [Music] [Music] they downsized they eliminated my job then I moved on to work wild ma then