##VIDEO ID:OnwZLM_p7OY## good evening welcome to the October 1st 2024 regular meeting of the Emerson governing body this meeting is being videotaped and may be viewed on your local public access Channel either 36 or 77 the meetings are also available Live on YouTube for those of you present in case of a fire please follow the fire exit signs above the doors and exit calmly council president would you please lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance pledge algi to the flag of the United States of America and to the repic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all I would ask you to stand for just a moment of silence to remember Emerson resident Annette Vernon Joan djalo our United States servicemen and women especially those that were recently deployed to the Middle East and as the anniversary is coming up for one year all of the victims of the October 7th 2023 terrorist attack in Israel and all the innocent people who have been killed in the aftermath thank you this meeting is called pursuant to the provisions of the open public meetings law and is adequately noticed pursuant to njsa 10410 this meeting of October 1st 2024 was noticed to the record and Ridgewood news on January 4th 2024 and published in the those said newspapers posted on the bulletin board in the municipal building and has remained continuously posted as required under the statute a sunshine notice was also noticed to said newspapers on September 24th 2024 and published on September 29 2024 and posted on the bulletin board Miss Ryan would you please call the Roll Call of the Gover in body sure mayor deala present councilwoman ardenia here councilwoman rice pres councilwoman Maguire pres council president Timberman here councilman Gordon absent and councilwoman sers here may I have a motion to excuse councilman Brian Gordon from our meeting as he just let me know that he is late in traffic and not going to make okay um I'd like motion to suspend the order of this agenda uh we were going to we're going to finish the municipal stuff very quickly and then we're going to roll right into our presentation so can I have a motion just to suspend uh the uh order of the meeting and a second and a all in favor I any opposed okay in October we raise awareness a fire prevention month as well as National Breast Cancer Awareness Month I want to thank our fire prevention Bureau and our fire department for keeping us all safe the fire department will be holding their annual fire safety open house on Wednesday October 16th at the firehouse and I encourage all residents to attend and remember to check your smoke alarms and make sure they are working and change the batteries I also urge all female residents to schedule their annual mammograms which are important in detecting breast cancer at its earliest stages all proclamations will be posted on the burrow website and on the bulletin board of burrow Hall there are no appointments this evening may I have a motion to approve the Clos session meeting minutes of September 3rd 2024 which are not for release to the public at this time so move second roll call please councilwoman Aria councilwoman rights councilwoman Maguire yes council president Timberman yes and councilwoman sers yes may I have a motion to approve the minutes of the September 17 2024 meeting some Mo roll call please councilwoman arenia yes councilwoman right yes councilwoman Maguire council president Timmerman yes and councilwoman sers yes and may I have a motion to approve the Clos session meeats of September 17th 2024 which are not for release to the public at this time second an a roll call please councilwoman arenia yes councilwoman rice yes councilwoman Maguire yes council president Timmerman yes and councilwoman sers yes pass so under correspondence uh congratulations are in order to the burrow we have recently received the silver level award from the New Jersey safe routes to school program in recognition of our commitment to their program and especially for our encouragement of walking in biking to school all correspondence on fi is on file in the clerk's office um we also received some late correspondents today that I would like a motion to add to our agenda someone second all in favor okay we got some great news today this afternoon the burough received a letter of award from the New Jersey Department of Community Affairs announcing that the burough of Emerson will be receiving a $1 million uh $1 million period from the state fiscal Recovery Fund to assist in our efforts quote to address persistent storm water issues and to implement Implement remediation projects as determined appropriate by the burrow this is in addition to the funds previously announced to address flooding and draining issues within the burrow as this information has just been received we will work with our employees and professionals to determine the best use of these monies uh I would like to thank our oh well actually first before we get to that before I start thanking people our engineer will be here at the October uh 15th meeting and he will start to explain to us how we would go about with um planning to use these monies um I would like the residents to be aware that this is an outright allocation of $1 million at the discretion and confirmation of the governor's office Emerson was one of only eight recipients of the funding and the only municipality to be awarded I sincerely thank Governor Murphy's office state senator Holly shapey assemblyman John azer and assemblyman Bob o for their support of Emerson and their commitment to improving the quality of life for our Emerson residents I also want to thank our burrow administrator Rob Hermanson burrow engineer Dave Atkinson Grant writer Stephanie gunderman our acting clerk Michelle Ryan and DPW superintendent Perry salamando for all of their hard work in the obtaining of this funding uh that's great news Financial business there is none unfinished business there is no and new business there is none which brings us um to the reason I think most of you are all here this evening which is a presentation um by Emerson Urban always get it wrong when i b r u r letters I'm a little dyslexic Emerson Redevelopment urban renewal llc's application for relief from Emerson zoning ordinances for the purpose of construction of seven affordable housing units in an off-site property located at 129 kindrick Road Emerson and I apologize I really am a little bit dyslexic when it comes the letters John would you take it from there sure um this application um has been was submitted a little while ago I'm not sure the exact timing and the burrow had not um decided decided to uh see what was going on with the building of the project uh as there was obviously some substantial delays going on uh across the street for for well over a year and so um the the redevelopers submitted a letter to the implementation monitor requesting that the burrow hear the application and an the implementation monitor wrote a letter with an opinion stating that he felt they were entitled to be heard so that's why we're having the meeting at a the direction of the Miss at the implementation monitor's request so with that is anyone here from who wishes to be heard from the urban Redevelopment thank you very much uh can you hear me if you could just raise that up a little bit so it does pick you up is this a little bit better yes thank you Adam good evening Adam fella of ss com and gross we are the attorneys for Emerson redevelopers urban renewal LLC to which I will be referring to them as e rur for Simplicity so I don't stumble along the same way uh we are here today from our request from about a year ago for the mayor and Council to provide proper Zoning for the property located at 129 Kinder KAC Road and designated on the Emerson tax excuse me ask you a question Adam you said to provide proper zoning yes what's improper about the current zoning Mr mcken I would like to present our presentation if we only have an hour we really well you can have as much time as you need tonight but but you said proper zoning what's improper about the current zoning that there's a ground floor commercial requirement to be able to provide uh so how is that improper excuse me how is that improper the current requirement I would like to continue our presentation we I'm asking you a question if you're not going to cooperate Mr M I asked a question we will explain how was it you said we will explain why we believe it is in proper zoning and why we believe our proposed zoning is proper during our presentation so you're not prepared to answer the question at this time that is not what I said at this moment in time when I asked it it is part of our presentation I would like us to move forward with our presentation we were told we only have an hour I would love if you that be great but can we're not limiting you to an hour great you can have as much time as you I ask your so my question was that you're not prepared you got to answer it during the presentation is that your answer yes okay thank you so that I understand we are here today on our request from a year ago for the mayor and Council to provide proper Zoning for the property located at 129 Kinder KAC Road and designated on the Emerson tax maps as block 610 lot one to permit the proposed 7unit affordable housing project this re request dates back actually years longer than our October 2nd 2023 letter that had the formal request um to the mayor and Council the to provide some backgrounds the seven affordable housing units that are proposed are the offsite units permitted in connection with the project referred to as block 419 and that's referred to as block 419 in Emerson's Mount Laurel settlement agreement and the related orders entered by judge Pavan the block 419 project received preliminary and final major site plan approval from the Emerson land use board for 147 units including 22 affordable housing units on site and an additional seven units offsite it was memorialized by resolution dated December 28th 2018 and it's currently under construction these are those seven units off site while 129 Kinder KAC Road was not specifically mentioned in the settlement agreement or in the black 19 approval this was the site that was always contemplated for the seven off-site affordable housing units in fact the former mayor uh mayor Lama Tina I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly requested a concept plan for off-site affordable housing units at this specific project in March 2017 and then later in 2017 the former mayor requested that ER purchase 120 Kinder Road for this purpose the burrow conveyed to ER that intended to make whatever amendments necessary to satisfy the Burrow's affordable housing requirements Adam can I ask you a question sure you just said the burrow in the burrow um the mayor and that first you said the mayor then you changed to the word the burrow who specifically do you mean by the burrow do you mean the mayor do you mean the mayor and Council was it an administrator what do you mean by the burrow we broke down the full timeline no the question was I I am trying to answer me please but it has nothing to do with the timeline you said the burrow what do you mean by the words the burrow please if I can finish answering even saying more than two words in response I can't answer your question if you're going to um cut me off I'm not cutting you off I'm asking you a question if you're going to obvious on the question I'm just asking what do you mean by the words the burrow not the mayor you said you jumped from the mayor to the burrow it was an interesting transition what do you mean as you know this has been litigated and this issue was dispensed with so you continue to use the words the burrow but what do you mean by the burrow I'm not continuing to use it I used it one time well that's why I asked in our December 20 December 13 2023 letter we provided a timeline of of all the different aspects uh relating to this um I will have to go through to see the exact people that were in late 2017 to which the buau refers I know that it included the mayor uh in His official capacity does that answer the question no I no it doesn't because I don't understand you you said that you don't know who it includes but you yet you still use the word the burrow so all you're really saying is the mayor not the burrow correct the mayor acting on behalf of the bureau and I will see we will check our notes to see who else at burrow included the mayor at at least you said the burrow requested so do you have anything in writing to show that the bur is a group P that or somebody beyond the mayor the mayor submitted a um a certification I saw the certification was which was part of a litigation right yes and what happened in that litigation what happened to that litigation we'll have check with our litigation attorney okay well they didn't inform me what happened in that litigation with that certification and you're sitting here presenting that certification you're I just want to get this C you're presenting a certification that was part of a litigation right and you don't know how that how that certification exactly what happened with it okay even though it is fair enough go ahead so so you don't know when you say the words of the burrow you just threw the word the burrow out there I will check who else was included with those conversations as of that it was the mayor acting in His official capacity the mayor the mayor can't B the burrow you I understand that okay so the mayor can still have conversations on behalf of the buau in His official capacity so you got some help there maybe maybe he can help you with the answer it was um it was discussed at the Redevelopment subcommittee and the Redevelopment subcommittee as the subcommittee requested it you and and and would you have was that in writing uh we have notes from the subcommittee meeting if you want us to sub that we can submit that yes please do the sub the Redevelopment subcommittee um conveyed to ER Ur that it intended to make whatever Amendment necessary to satisfy the bir's affordable housing requirements and we submitted as I said the timeline of the relevant events in our December 13th 2023 letter on August 18th 2021 ER submitted an application to the Emerson Township L use board for preliminary final major site plan approval a D1 use variance C variances and design waivers except exemptions for the construction of a proposed three story multif family residential project containing seven affordable housing units as well as nine parking spaces and other site improvements on the property uh located at 129 Kinder KAC Road this property is located in the cbd-1 15 zoning District a use variance pursuing to njsa 40 55-70 dod1 was required to permit a multif family residential use including on the ground floor because section 29068 of the zoning ordinance requires multif family residential housing to either be located above the ground floor retail commercial or other principal uses be located above at grade parking and only in areas where the building is behind a building that fronts on kinder Road or at grade only where the property fronts on Lincoln Boulevard and only in areas where the building is behind a building that fronts on Kinder ma Road at the December 2nd 2021 meeting the lanus board refused to take jurisdiction because section 29068 C2 of the uh Emerson ordinances states that any deviations from the standards in the C cd-10 and cbd-1 15 zoning districts that result in a d variance are addressed as an amendment to the Redevelopment plan and I believe but I won't say for certain that is a reference to the 2006 CBD Redevelopment plan and it can't be done by variance relief and the reason why I say I believe it's to that Redevelopment plan I I'll also note that the Redevelopment plan is more akin to a recommendation for zoning it doesn't have specific zoning standards of what are permitted uses those were included in the zoning ordinance itself not in the Redevelopment plan the prohibition on D variances did not come from the original uh 2006 zoning ordinance and it wasn't included in the 2010 uh what was considered a Redevelopment plan Amendment or further revision to the CBD district in 2014 it happened in 2016 about a decade after the original uh zoning ordinance so we weren't allowed in front of the zoning board we went back to the court we went back and forth with the courts and uh almost appeared before this Council last year and now after going back with the um as Mr mccan mentioned with the special uh implementation monitor we're here to request that the mayor and Council amend the zoning ordinance and any required Redevelopment plans to provide uh zoning to allow the proposed seven unit affordable housing project uh our original letter from October 2023 requested an amendment to permit multif family residential use in the CBD 10 and cbd5 Zoning districts including on the ground flower for property fronting on Kinder KAC road but as we noted in our December 2023 letter an alternative solution and we're open to Alternative Solutions one very narrow solution would be to adopt a housing affordable housing overlay it can include this property other properties whatever the um burough feels the mayor and Council feels as most appropriate as long as obviously in our mind as long as it includes this property uh to allow what we are proposing um uh I uh I also want to note that what we're requesting from the bureau isn't that it approved the seven unit project if the burrow adopts the zoning that we are requesting then we will be allowed to go in front of the uh land use we still need to uh to put on proofs in front of the land use board to get site plan approval you are not being requested to approve a project you are not being requested to uh approve whether say access or storm water is safe and and efficient that would still need to go in front of the L board uh so any concerns about uh uh obviously a specific project we have a specific project we submitted everything towards there but the proofs of it we're not asking you to approve that you will be protected if you adopt this zoning from the land use board still needing to approve s approval that is in their jurisdiction and that is what their board is for the relevant issue here is um is the zoning and uh whether the property is approvable available developable and suitable for affordable housing the special affordable housing planning Master explain that it is in the in uh the special Master's letter to to the court appointed implementation monitor dated February 28th 2022 and we attached that in our submission to you in our December 2023 letter the spe special Master Mary Beth lonan stated that the property is in planning area one of the state plan which she I'll quote is uh she stated is the preferred location for affordable housing she also explained how if the burrow grants uh our a request obviously was before this specific request but if it adopts this types of zoning the Burrow's overall economic plan uh the the New Jersey smart growth in initiatives would be further and how this small oddly shaped property cannot realistically be developed with multif family residential overc commmercial um and we will explain a little bit further on why we believe that is improper zoning because this is a small oddly shaped property that cannot be developed with multif family overc commmercial especially for for affordable housing where municipalities aren't permitted to have cost generative measures added on amending the zoning ordinance would permit a uh realistic development of the property to increase foot traffic downtown in an area adjacent to compatible land uses including the uh adjacent or nearby uh commercial retail uses public professional and personal services nearby residential and transportation services and so now we have two witnesses and they will go in they're both planners uh the focus here is on the zoning of the property they'll provide additional details as to how the property is approvable available developable and suitable for affordable housing and why we believe our zoning ordinance um Amendment request would provide the proper Zoning for the property so at this time I would like to call John MCD of John MCD Associates L before before weing to ask you a question uh under the terms of the agreement um I'm sure you're aware that um the uh your client was required to consider other Alternatives correct do you agree with that um I would have to check the exact terms I'm not sure if there was a a specific provision about requiring alternative sites okay did your client then consider alternative sites to this site before you came before us to ask us for any zoning change you can get help from any whoever you you know needed if you don't know Mr McAn Steve Klein from SS com and gross uh so in terms of whether or not they considered Alternatives as you'll know from the Redevelopment agreement it is not the redeveloper that is required to consider alternatives in the abstract it is the burrow and the redeveloper and what we understand from Latina's certification albeit I know you dispute that but what we understand from ltina certification is that the Redevelopment subcommittee considered multiple different sites in connection with Bridget briet Bogard I think I'm saying her name correctly and they de determined that of the available land that was in Emerson where they could situate affordable housing the Redevelopment subcommittee said the only one that's suitable for the offsite pursuant to the terms of the Redevelopment agreement is blocked six times lot one have you considered anything else since then it's been a few years we have considered the one alternative that the buau proposed but let me let me just step back and say in terms of legally in our proceedings as you're well aware it's the bureau's obligation to come forward with a realistic proposal to satisfy its affordable housing obligations there's a conditional final Judgment of compliance and Repose which that's the RDP the RDP is supposed to be met by among other things the Emerson station building and it's the Burrow's obligation to come forward and say this is the suitable site that we want you develop at mayor ltina in his certification and my client Jack logman and his certification said that the bureau went through that process that they considered it with the subcommittee and they selected this site so now that's a different from from the litig the original litigation you're saying there's a subcommittee it's the first time hearing of it um so so assuming that is true and correct cor my question was since then have you considered any other sites has the burough proposed anything to you that that you've considered the bureau has never made a recommendation to the implementation monitor to the special master or to the court and said we want this instead the only suitable site that's ever been proposed by The Bureau is 610 now you're speaking of potentially settlement Communications and I won't go into those unless you you you ask me to but there was another proposal that was made I'll keep it generic we considered that with our engineers and due to environmental and other problems it was absolutely not suitable for the site as block six1 okay so just to be clear this is the first time on that issue because on that settlement issue no one from your firm got back to us on that agreement on that proposal anyway so just so that you're aware of that I I disagree with you Mr mccan and the reason is this some a proposal again I don't want to get into no no I'm just telling you that no one got back to us that's not true we discussed this very property probably a year ago no no I'm talking about a recent a recent submission maybe two weeks ago it was exactly the same proposal in terms of that lot okay oh but I'm saying to you we just proposed something two weeks ago and up until now so you're saying that you brought up the word settlement agreement settlement prop negoti proposal it was May two weeks ago and I'm saying accurately this is the first I'm heard of it that you've rejected it we we haven't said we reject it but I can advise you now that it's the same proposal we rejected over a year ago I don't think it's the same but that's that's separate in a part um one of while you're up here um Mr K um can you explain for us um when you come to the burrow um for a change in in ordinance stuff you know you're very familiar competent attorneys with the term unclean hands um there's been a lot of concern by the public raised in Emerson as to what's caused the delay uh in the in the development for the past year there's been a lot of publication a lot of news reports a lot of public information on the financial condition of uh the principles involved in this project do you want to take that time now to address those issues before you get into your plan your experts I apologize and to confirm no that's fine yes so due to the litigation including the fact that we just had an inspection with a couple of members of the buau went in front of the implementation monitor had some discussions we don't think it's appropriate to on the record today discuss the reasons for that in part because it's not relevant to the application that's in front of the buau today but also because of the litigation given that we're in active disputes with appeals and other trials coming up in the near future we think it's not appropriate to discuss on the record okay but real regardless of the application this is you're here it's a public meeting it's not just an application you're here the public has asked a lot of questions about the financial condition of your client it's highly been publicized I don't want to get into the details of it because it may be fair or unfair I don't know if that's true but I can tell you as you're standing here tonight asking the burrow for something else okay that general public concern about the financial condition of your client and I'm want to give you the opportunity to address that and um my colleague Mr Klein addressed it's a matter of we're not going to get into those type of details because of the current litigation but if it's the bu's position that they can't um adopt certain zoning due to financial conditions of of of a redeveloper rather than the actual um the actual proofs of whether the zoning is appropriate then we'll uh we'll accept that whatever the buau says no that's not my position I I appreciate you saying if as opposed to put words I'm not accusing you but if we're going down that route no we're not we're not but what I'm saying very clearly is there is a you came into this burrow talking about how you want to work with the community how you wanted to be part of the community and there's it I it's fair to say there's been a lot of public questions raised about the financial condition of your client it's caused there's been a delay here a substantial delay uh by your client in the development of the property and regardless it's not my position is you we will hear your application look at the application of the merits but this is your opportunity to say hey we did come in here we are members of the community we want to be part of the community and the community has some legitimate I believe probably legitimate questions may be disputable I don't know know but this is an opportunity regardless of litigation is there something you can say like by clients in fine Financial condition that it has no problem going forward with this project is there something you can say to leave the the the citizens of Emerson of any maybe Mr kugman himself would like to come up and address that issue yes as I a moment ago I'm I'm litigation councel I'm not the land use Council but from a litigation perspective we are immediately in litigation on points as such as these I don't think it makes sense either from my client's perspective the burrow when we have a trial coming up we have other issues that are percolating to make any sort of comments regarding viability Financial or otherwise it just doesn't make sense in a public for to make representations like that so we we won't be doing that today okay so I you know just for the record you know we wanted to give you the opportunity to to say you know at least the public concern at rest and for litigation purposes I don't know what litigation purposes has to do with telling the public and the citizens of Emerson that you came in saying you wanted to be a member of the community to participate I don't know how saying something like to the effect of my client is in F Financial condition he has no problem finishing his project maybe he there's rumors out there that he's selling the project the the burrow has been getting phone calls from investors from across the country and it would be helpful if you could just say something to the citizens of Emerson that you guys are your client is fine that's that what does that got to do with litigation I don't understand maybe you could educate me on that cuz I we like to move on to our first witness so you don't want to answer okay that's fine let call we provided our answer we provided our answer okay we provided our answer don't it's it's not appropriate to say we didn't provide an answer when we provided three different answers and explained why want to answer the question all I said you didn't want to answer the question okay let me let me just say this trying in the most diplomatic way considering our different positions ination this project will be built and this will be built by it is not being sold we are moving forward with the project there are Builders out there last week this week and they're going to be moving forward okay thank you that's all I wanted to hear so at this time I'd like to call up John mcdna professional planner focusing on land use and Zoning does he have a CV with him um I do not oh could could you please provide us one uh yes we can certainly provide that and he can provide his credentials on the record I know it's not a l use Board hearing but he can do it similar to aanus boort where he can explain his educational background and his license and his profession we don't we don't need to you don't need to take time to do that we we'll accept them as a professional but just provide us on the record if you don't mind Absol I'll Cel no problem okay easy sorry um it's a public meeting there's no there's no swearing in sorry all right Mr McDon can you briefly describe the proposed project and uh the what we're requesting in terms of zoning from a land use and Zoning perspective and I can sure thing um members of the council thank you for having me here tonight again John MCD I'm a licensed professional planner I'm going to give you some exhibits here as a planner I I've been asked to look at the physical integration of what the applicant is asking the governing body to do here in the context of the physical landscape that's out there as a land use planner we always start with the land we always look at what is physically out there condition wise contextually that's really the narrow focus of what I'm here this evening for so I I've given you counselor I don't know if you want to call it one exhibit um with four or five pages or individual Pages can I just ask you a quick question um how come you didn't send this before is it your intention to go through all these exhibits now we because we didn't have this in advance correct these are just visual representations and Aerials I believe of the property and Mr mcdna will explain it uh they're just exhibits of uh to give the board a little bit extra Mr fet do you have a copy that the um residents can look at and pass around an extra thank you Jeff maybe you can just share that and pass it around as people like to see we have on Pat if someone I can rob do you want a hands Rob there's another one John and Mr McDon can get into detail about uh exactly what these exhibits are it was intended to assist uh the mayor and council with their visual representation of the property and where it's located do you are you going to ask him you don't have to have testimony whatever you're comfortable doing in terms of the presentation is fine yeah I think for the most part I'm going to just let him uh give a speech I may jump in every so often but I'm pretty much just going to let uh him run with it okay thanks and counselor mayor council members I'm not going to be particularly longwinded here I'm not going take your time take your time you have all night I'm not going to spend a lot of time on these they're just photographs of the particular site um the first page is going to be downloaded from the gis uh from the gis database and what I've done is taken the subject property it's got parcel maps on there parcel lot lot indications and I've highlighted the subject lot in yellow which we can see it has an unusual triangular shape it's at the Confluence of two roadways here keratic Road and Emerson Plaza right there at the junction of acrian a as well so some challenges to this property from a pure physical planning standpoint in terms of it's atypical shape it's a regular shape again at the Confluence of two roadways here that triangular shape its undersized nature it's got some limited capacity and importantly here we know we're in a retail zone that does allow for some residential use on the upper levels again this applicant is going to ask the governing body to move on an allowance for multi family on the ground floor bearing in mind multif family is allowed to go right here everything the applicant is proposing would go uh would be allowed under the confines of your cbd5 Zone District as it presently exists but for the provision of ground for residential uses which is really the main thing that this petitioner is asking the governing body to move on again it's a site that has some challenges here um in terms of retail it's at the Terminus or the Apex if you will of the uh downtown the CBD right across the street from the train station certainly think it's good planning to put people of all incomes regardless of income enclosed proximity to Civic amenities including mass transit including shopping services and other uses as well excuse me Mr mcdna I would just ask I know everyone is excited to see this but if the audience can just be a little bit quieter and also the governing body members while Mr mcdunn is speaking because it's um interfering with the recording we want you to to get you on a on tape um properly I'm not turning my back on the on the governing body here just just for the benefit of the public all these are are photographs of the property which probably already know what's out there uh showing the physical characteristic of the property should I respond I somebody's making hand signals not yet she's allowed to make hand signals but you don't have to address there'll be a public comment okay and then of course um aerial photographs of the subject property as well from various Advantage points so the key Point here again is we're looking at an irregular piece of property somewh challenge piece of property and a petition here to modify the zoning I I think it would be appropriate particular to this site only so you're not um encumbering the rest of the CBD district there's certainly planning tools where you can do that in the form of an overlay uh where you don't become tantamount to rezone of the entire CBD district and keep it isolated to a particular piece of property um again an overlay is a very positive way to do that here again it is a relatively clean sheet of paper in terms of development a relatively flat piece of property relatively unconstrained cleared again generally flat and ideally suited to accommodate development of the boutique scale that the applicant is proposing here this is not a massive project by any shets it's within the confines of your height regulations in the district it fits nicely within the confines of the the site as well and substantially similar to what could be realized here as a mixed use development again we're looking simply to allow for res residential on the ground floor which we think is reasonable appropriate residential could go um on the ground floor in certain locations in the CBD as well uh we think this is an appropriate location because it puts people regardless of income in close proximity to that very um very good Community Asset that you have in terms of the train station right there you've got a bus stop right in front as well uh you've got a walkable area so you've certainly got many alternatives to the automobile here which is another reason why this is attractive as a as a place of residential living as well as I said it is not a big large scale development it is hooked to uh derived from a larger development that did have a requirement for seven off-site affordable units you're going to hear a little bit more uh as to why we think from a planning standpoint this is a reasonable location um in considering consideration of the affordable housing regulations but suffice it to say I think it's clear from this Photograph and the photographs that we've given you residential use pure residential use would make good planning sense here not only with excellent connectivity to retail and to shopping but to parks and uh open space uh Recreation and the like as well so it gives good Community assets right there for uh persons regardless of income levels multif family is not permitted is not prohibited here affordable housing is an inherently beneficial use uh it is of Paramount public importance from a planning standpoint we consider it the cream of the crop if you will uh top tier inherently beneficial uses are limited to a very very narrow band of land uses hospitals schools religious uses and affordable housing this is a different type of land land use than other types of land uses that the board may see uh that the commission may see here and in that regard it certainly does deserves special treatment special consideration I think with the extreme weight here on the positive side and the very little weight on the negative side in that we're not in the interior of your downtown but we're on the edge we're not breaking up any strong pattern here uh with not having any retail in that lower unit and as I said there are um challenges here that make retail uh practically difficult uh retail is also of course prohibited prohibitive the affordable housing regulations talk about uh barriers to the provision or the realistic opportunity for affordable housing and again having a retail component here would be cost prohibitive and getting in the way certainly interfere with the provision of affordable housing units so again we think on balancing here this amendment will serve the public interest will serve the the Paramount public interest and in that regard uh we think the amendments are consistent with with good planning and the changes are warranted okay I don't know ad I everything sure again this just to tack on so this is a three story Zone to add some more retail tail here would trigger a fourth story or an additional story um again that would trigger height that's not allowed in the zone district and certainly different than the other buildings that you see in the area as well just take you back full circle to the exhibits that I've given you all we did was fly a drone around these were actually back in November of last year probably better to show these than the show now uh because you do have the foliage on the ground so you get a better sense of the physical landscape and the surroundings but this for the purposes of what I'm showing you here it's a fair and accurate representation of the site and the surroundings as as they would exist today thank you and just one last question uh Mr MC in addition to the height uh retail use usually has some type of parking uh either requirement end or actual need here the requirement for residential use is to um spaces per unit and the project because of the size of the shape um already required a variant sort parking so can you explain how additional of retail in addition to those seven units would be difficult here for the uh size and shape of the property sure I I do this every night throughout the state of New Jersey I get to see the full cross-section north south east west been in many many towns many downtowns uh it is not a typical in a downtown setting uh where retail may be struggling not implying that's the the case here but when we see the conversion of an unused retail space go to residential use from a pure parking standpoint in terms of ordinance requirements you take the same physical space dedicated to non-residential would have a higher parking demand than uh than a a residential use the other important thing here the other thing that's nice about residential here it takes the unknown out of the equation I think we all know with retail say this all the time you can't regulate popularity put the right sign up there on this building as a retail use it could certainly be a very very happy heavy or active traffic generator as well uh with residential it's generally fixed and uh in just about all codes we see a lesser demand associated with residential in Spa same space that would be devoted to retail um lastly I I see this as not being any impairment to your Zone plan I looked at the 2020 master plan again certainly wants a strong retail base this is going to provide foot traffic here which is what every downtown wants a consumer population to support local businesses so I think that will certainly Advance the intent purpose uh of your master plan to have a a strong and viable retail base as I said this is way at the end of the retail Center at the at the downtown Center this is not smacking the thing with that said I think I I've thank you John hey John quick question is that you have a computer here can you can if you have access to your resume can you email that to do that right now thank you sir thank you um Adam quick question um when did this just for reference purposes when did this building close when did your client close on the building do you remember think I included that in uh the timeline March 2019 I believe the deed was transferred okay um yeah March 19th 2019 was the uh date of closing do you know who the attorney was who represented the your client on the closing I don't do not know I that's fine uh but but but the zoning hasn't changed since then right so your client is it fair to say your client knew the existing zoning at the time when they purchased the property correct okay thank you Mr MCD if you're going to transfer that file would you send it to clerk Emerson nj.org and then she will forward it to Mr McAn goad okay thank you so at this time I would like to call up art Bernard another professional planner he will uh be focusing on affordable housing specifically and uh we can also send you his CV afterwards you don't have the computer I have I have it with me too so I'm just wondering I'm thinking because of the audience and you know I would like to be able to look at you and the audience at the same time well to um sure yeah if you want to sit down up here and do you have a handout or no are we going on the same hand are we going on the same handout or do you have a handout as well working off a handout okay that's going to be our only exhibit for tonight okay thank you okay if you could just you could sit down if you'd like and easier to get to the microphone just make sure that you're speaking into the microphone no I I understand that we've kind of is that is that what I understand I'm sorry I don't have to be sworn in no it's a public meeting okay so um you know I'm GNA I have a presentation I was prepared I I didn't actually understand that you know we're going to have uh um the public uh a fairly large representation of the public and I I wonder if the board would like me to give some brief with the emphasis on brief history of Mount Laurel and how we got here I if that's helpful to the board members and to the public I I can do it in 10 minutes so you want to say something you want to add to that oh so let me say this um for the public that is here um um uh this mayor and Council had a several hour presentation on Mount Laurel this past spring because of the uh the new law and and the new requirements coming in um they've been this board has been briefed and the public is it's on it's on our website it's on that it was a long presentation thorough presentation what our requirements are going forward for this year I don't mind if you want to just for the people that are here if you want to just you know maybe even maybe a little condensed version that maybe you had in mind I think it's going to be very condensed I mean I mean I I go I'll go through 40 Years of history in less than 10 minutes you'd be doing a better job than me okay all right well I've lived it so anyway um my name is Art Bernard okay and the firm that you work for Mr Bernard it's my own firm it's art Bernard um and Associates uh and I'm the managing member I have a u uh Masters in City and Regional planning from ruu University I'm a licensed professional planner and today is actually the 50th year of my B of working this is this is a special day happy anniversary um i i i semi-retired two years ago um and I haven't done night meetings for a while so this is kind of a treat I also forgot my hearing aids in today so it's better for me to be close to you it's okay um but um at any rate uh over the 50 years for eight and a half of those years I served an agency called the Council on affordable housing and I did a lot of things there I left as their their executive director and I wrote most of the state regulations that are still in place today and were the basis of your 2017 settlement with fair share housing center um since leaving COA 1994 I've worked as the affordable housing planner for 27 municipalities done housing elements for 27 municipalities I've represented many more private sector clients before local boards and in court I've qualified as an expert witness in most of the courts most notably over the last 10 years uh as one of the expert Witnesses in the middle sex County and Mercer County Fair Share trials and in a builder remedy that you may have read about ningwood Cliffs before judge fingon and I've also served the court as a special master and on seven occasions seven different municipalities so in in getting ready for tonight I reviewed um Census Data specifically the 2017 to 2021 American Community survey uh a document called the guide to uh affordable housing in New Jersey um your 2017 settlement with fair share housing center um a 2022 report by the court master in this case Mary Beth lonigan a November 9th 2023 report by your planner Donna L Holquist um our planner I he represented you any settlement and um okay I reviewed the municipal Landy law and I I've been out to the site so let's just talk about the history of this it's it's it's difficult to understand but in in 1975 and in 1983 the Supreme Court of New Jersey said that every municipality in the state has an obligation of for low and moderate income housing and in 1983 the court said in order to enforce this we're going to offer Builders relief from Municipal zoning something called the builders remedy if the builders sued municipalities and if were willing to build the affordable housing and shortly after that decision 1983 there must have been 100 communities that were hauled in the court and were losing their zoning powers and what the okay and so um what the legislature did is they acted and they created an organization called the Council on affordable housing whose job it was to implement the affordable housing obligation and I had the the honor of starting them up and working for them for eight years but unfortunately eventually the organization lost its way and the Supreme Court determined in 2015 that it wasn't doing its job and the court had to step in and the court stepped in and over the first two years or so after the Supreme Court decision there was a lot of litigation over what the municipal fair share numbers were going to be that kind of came to a head with a decision by judge Jacobson in Mercer County that kind of I think most municipalities and most of the public kind of said all right this is this is where we're going to go and and so what ensued was litigation and and the and there was a a nonprofit that drove this litigation and and saved the the Mount Laurel Doctrine from from politicians that tried to kill it and that organization was fair share housing center and fair the court named fair share housing center as a party in all the cases and so what you'll see is a lot of settlements between municipalities and this nonprofit organization called fair share housing center and the uh the buau settled with fair share housing center in 2017 and we're going to talk about the settlement a little bit tonight um now this housing is a little different it's affordable housing and when a lot of people think of affordable housing they think of government subsidized housing but that's not what this is what this is is housing that's actually being subsidized through this larger development that includes um a number of Market units plus 22 affordable units on one site and then seven units some point else and we're suggesting to you tonight that that someplace else should be um at the location that Mr mcdonal was talking about on 129 Kinder Kack Road um now who's going to live in these units well basically working people are people who have worked all their lives they are uh people who's um who earn less than 80% of median income typically they earn as as little they earn at least 30% of median income and what median income is changes somewhat around the state and also changes based on the household size but in Bergen County a threers household can earn um as little as say $32,500 and as much as $86,700 and still qualify for what we're calling affordable housing so this isn't a fringe group uh low and moderate income households represent a full 40% of all the households in the state they include teachers and nurses and social workers and paralal and firefighters and people that deliver your mail they include people who are just starting out and older people on fixed incomes they are people that work or have worked all their lives but are denied housing in large part due to the lack of land zon for multif family housing in order to get this affordable housing they have to go through a credit check just like any other tenant and so there's no reason that they wouldn't be an asset to the community a lot of people a lot of the public who isn't familiar with this ask well is there really a need for this type of Housing and I can answer that in I guess three different ways um one is that in New Jersey 42% of all all the households are paying more than 30% of their gross income on housing 30% of gross income on housing and about a half of them half of those are paying more than 50% of their gross income on housing and I I just ask you all to focus a little bit on what it would mean to each of you if you were paying more than 30% of your gross income on housing Because by the time you pay your Social Security and your income tax your already you're paying over 40% of your take-home pay just on rent this I object this is we answer no you're out of order this is his presentation thank you so that doesn't when you're spending more than 40% of your take-home pay on housing that doesn't leave much for food or clothing or Transportation or child care and health care so that's one way I answer the question is it necessary another way is just an anecdotal example of uh a community I was involved with for Hoban in Cedar Grove where they built 90 affordable housing units and received over 3,000 applications and I remember at the same time I saw um some amazing statistics about all the applications for three units in haddenfield New Jersey and another measure of the need is exclusion Aries zoning disproportionate impact on minorities um and I'm talking about African-Americans and Hispanics that are protected by the federal fair housing act um Emerson for affordable housing purposes is in a housing region with Bergen pic Hudson and Sussex counties um and within the housing region only 38% of the housing units are single family homes in Emerson it's 86.9% are single family homes um of of course single family homes are generally the most expensive type of Housing and the least likely to be rented when lower income households need less expensive housing and more rentals because they often can't qualify for a mortgage um the median income in Bergen County as of the 19 2021 American Community survey was 9,497 Emerson's was significantly higher at $ 35,39 and the median income for African-Americans and Latinos in Bergen County was $ 79,3 49 and $81,400 of white households own their own homes and onethird rent and those same numbers for African Americans and Hispanics kind of flip um 2/3 of African-Americans and Latinos rent and only onethird own their homes and finally within the housing region 7.5% of the population are African-American and 31.3 are Hispanics that's about 39% household of the households that are protected by the federal fair housing act while in Emerson only 1.5% of the population is is African-American and 133% is Hispanic now this isn't Emerson's not unique in this and I've done this for a number of communities and and you know I'm convinced that there is a strong relationship between the existing housing stock and the the homogenity of the existing housing stock and the lack of diversity in the population can I ask you a question who determined the um the region that region from a regular form of government seems a little unusual can you the um it's a result of the um the M law decision is a regional obligation and and so who selected so I'm getting there I'm getting there um there a couple ways to answer the question I'm going to answer both ways and so before once allocates the housing need to communities you have to establish a region the legislature in 1985 told Co to establish regions that were um contiguous at least three counties and and and in 2024 Fair Housing Act continues that language and Co determined initially that the region included these counties Burgen Bic Hudson and Sussex counties which are contiguous and and they're also in a uh um the same uh smsa or standard Metropolitan statistical area and and the ACT talks about smsas too and and then uh judge Jacobson used the same in in her decision the Supreme Court had told judge Jacobson to follow CO's methodology as much as possible and then I believe the the 2024 legislation does the same thing it basically says follow the Jacobson methodology and it's very specific thank you okay you're welcome so anyway um Emerson signs this um um their affordable housing obligation 2017 and they they agree on a 1987 to 1999 housing obligation of 74 units and that's a housing obligation based on the growth that occurred between 87 and 99 and then as the state continues to grow there's an ongoing housing obligation and for the years 1999 to 2025 the housing obligation was 234 so there's a total obligation for the two periods of 308 units and the bur and fair share housing center agreed that there was enough land in the buau OR vacant land land or land that they can land in the B way the regulation reads um to address 73 of the 38 but the 308 still is part of the housing obligation it doesn't go away and the settlement creates some Redevelopment opportunities to address uh many more than the 73 units um now in my opinion based on having been involved in fair share methodology since 1986 um and based on the language in the 2024 Fair Housing Act I think the bro's looking at another obligation of about 138 units when DCA releases their their numbers at the end of October um now some of you are probably for for what round are you referring fourth round okay so there'd be the 308 plus another 138 if I'm correct so I know what it's like representing a town that's developed you're probably wondering well where on Earth are we going to put that um but I just want to make a clear that's your guesstimate that's not the number because I don't want people running out of here saying we're going to have to come up with 138 I'd like to think yeah I it's an estimate and it's and it's not my job it's dca's job and they're the ones are going to decide so I think you're characterizing it very fairly yeah and to be clear there may be other vacant land adjustments or anything it was just an estimate but that's irrelevant to what I was talking about but we we have people watching along and people yeah I mean people should understand that this is dca's job not mine I'm giving you my best estimate um but so but I know from representing developed towns that um um um oh I lost my train of thought oh that it's hard it's necessarily not easy to find places to find new opportunities for affordable housing but that actually makes it more important to take advantage of the ones that are before you tonight um the settlement agreement in terms of Emerson redevelopers says that that Emerson redevelopers is going to build 22 affordable units on site and provides for another seven offsite uh and the settlement envisions that the redeveloper is going to enter into good faith negotiations with this offsite owner and that the bureau will use its eminent domain Powers if necessary so there's a level of Municipal cooperation that's envisioned by the settlement and Municipal cooperation is something that is expected as part part of the housing obligation uh in fact the resoning of property for affordable housing um requires more than just zoning I'm sorry it requires that communities eliminate what are called unnecessary cost generating standards and to take affirmative measures to promote affordable housing and I'll give you some examples of of what I mean for in terms of affirmative measures I mean one could be granting relief from existing zoning by granting reasonable variances that's something that your land use board could do um but if that's not possible and I've heard that that's a problem uh rezoning the property to make it easier rather than harder to build the affordable housing would certainly be appropriate and I agree if I was representing you I'll be saying the overlay zone is the least disruptive of your zoning and that would be the way to go if choose to go that way um and the court order that appointed the special monitor to oversee the project included language that the special monitor should eliminate all barriers that stop or delay the construction of affordable housing now I think it's clearly appropriate to allow the apartments to be constructed on the first floor in thisa in this case um I think it's common knowledge can I ask a question what happens when the delay is not on the municipal part but it's on the uh Builder's part what do you do that you argue whose fault it is in court I guess yeah step for you have a structure right I let me finish yeah sure I've listened to you for 10 minutes now you have a structure right uh standing there unbuilt partially built for two years regardless where you go to court and say who did it what and you have a problem right so so how does COA in your if if you were the the director of COA how would you treat a builder who may have been in financial stress and cause of delay what would you have done in that situation I think you're asking uh U me to answer a hypothetical off the top of my head but but my approach to things I think what the court does is I don't view I don't view life as good guys and bad guys I don't view the things as I think that the important part is the affordable housing and the and implementing the settlement those those would be the two things correct so so what happen when that well I I was about to answer no no but but what happens when you know it seems like the enforcement as you clearly outlined to the public is on the burrow to enforce right on the burrow because it's just to be clear you're talking about block 419 no I'm not talking I'm not talking about any block I'm talking about a hypothetical situation that sounds V Vaguely Familiar to the to what you're trying to no it's Vaguely Familiar to number of projects throughout the state some may involve your client some may not uh but it's not just Emerson uh I'm talking about generally speaking this is not a problem unique to Emerson uh in fact uh I think Mawa had a similar issue a few years ago so go ahead the question though isn't about the zoning of 129 K Comm no no no it's it's a hypothetical question but not about the Zoning for 129 it's the question is a hypothetical he's he's we've given him the leeway to give us presid ation about the history he's opining about the settlement agreement he made a specific uh reference to the obligations of the municipality and I asked and he represented that he was the former director of Co he was involved in these regulations and I asked them a question how did you deal with it when you were the running Running Co I'm sure it's not the first time you've seen a delay in a project uh uh in hypothetical like this so it's it's a very relevant question to to what he stated so go ahead well I don't recall having to deal with this at coh really no and when I'm in your years a Cod you never had a delay by a developer we never had the issue come before the board can you speak into can you speak we never I don't recall the issue ever coming before the board with on a motion okay thank you okay appreciate it um so anyway um what I was saying is that I think think it would be clearly appropriate to allow the apartments to be constructed on the first floor in this matter uh I think it's common knowledge that filling commercial and office space has been a challenge with the Advent of online shopping and the ability to work remotely um the amount of non-resident space non-residential space we're talking about on this small lot is uh in my view in di Minimus um in terms of the impact on your planning efforts uh I think the downtown would probably benefit more from Seven households within walking distance of the downtown and um to help support it uh and I think the relief from the first floor non-residential requirement would also make sense given um the site's location on the edge of the downtown and the lack of parking to support the the commercial development um and the court master seems to agree the court Master Being Mary Beth lonigan in that she found that the site was suitable for affordable housing she recommended that the site be approved without uh the non-residential development on the first floor um and what she did she did one thing I thought was very clever and I agree with her is that the uh that Emerson redevelopers Place more of their two-bedroom units on the main site uh and shift more one-bedroom units on the subject property due to the lack of parking on the site um and I thought that was very clever so taking what uh Miss Lan said one at a time um Kaa has various criteria for a suitable affordable housing site and I think this site is particularly suited because it has access to public water and sewer it's within walking distance of the downtown and the train station there's bus service close by it's on a County Road that's designed to move traffic from one Community to another it's near a park um and her report references an issue that the burough raised at one point in time about the U the site um not uh being suitable because um it's not zoned it couldn't be developed as zoned um and but the rule specifically says that you don't that the site doesn't have to be zoned to permit the use um as of U the time it's being considered for affordable housing and after all the regulation was developed to deal with uh exclusionary zoning and the idea was to expand the universal potential affordable housing sites and not limit them um so I think her recomend ation about relief from the non-resident of development on the first floor makes sense because U the size and shape of the property and the lack of on-site parking because the affordable housing is beneficial to the buau and addressing its affordable housing obligation and because I think extra households in the downtown are more valuable to the downtown than the limited amount of commercial space that can fit on the site uh and even though the need for on site parking is diminished due to the location of the train station and bus surface the altered bedroom split for more one-bedroom units lessens the need for on-site parking so um I thank the board for letting me go through the history I don't know if it was helpful to people are not um and um my conclusion is that the benefits of the seven affordable units at this location Far exceed any detriments associated with eliminating the first floor non-res idential requirement and I would urge the board to take the affirmative measure of removing the unnecessary non-residential requirement from the site yes uh I just had a couple quick followup questions um in Miss Holquist report how many units did she say that the burough has for in terms of affordable housing units for the entire buau 33 so the entire buau has only 33 affordable housing units that have been constructed correct um Miss Lan and I'm not sure if Miss Lan will ped on that but but I have no reason to doubt what Miss Holquist said so that's what she said 33 units and the the obligation was at least 308 and down with the vacant land it was only I believe you said 73 well I think the key thing is the obligations 308 and um this project has um uh with block 4119 and the offsite there's 29 affordable units total correct 29 affordable rentals so that's almost as many as the entire rest of the bur cor well yeah yeah and and the the buau would undoubtedly get a rental bonus credit for uh a percentage of the 29 so it it probably get result in at least 40 units of credit it when it if when it's built out so the burrow would be over doubling um the amount of units that they've provided in terms of credits most likely yes somewhere around there yes thank you I have a quick question um speak to the mic please I'm sorry too close um you said you've been an expert wi Us in court and so forth when's the last time because I don't have the benefit of your resume being submitted by to the meeting um when's the last time you represented in municipality I represented in the third round M to scataway which was the first town to settle in the state right uh Cherry Hill MH Mount Laurel okay uh long ago was Mount La in third round yeah third round that was like uh 2017 2018 is that in your is all that in your resume not not that specific okay uh I represented Medford and then as so I represented those communities in the third round and each time I finished one of them each time they settled and we got them compliance then I just didn't take any more Municipal did you represent them as a planner or how did you how did you as a planner as a planner that's all I can do no I am okay thank you um thank you very much oh thank you thank you for your patience thank you Mr Bernard for your testimony I just have a very brief uh and then it'll conclude our present okay um I have a question question for you correct go ahead no actually do you some then I'll ask sorry so uh as we mentioned this project uh and our and essentially our request arose from Emerson's Mount Laurel settlement and the Black Block 419 approval these seven affordable housing units that we are uh that are part of the project to be um that is proposed at 129 Kinder Kap Road are um ones that were required to be offsite and they're being provided off site in this project um this lot is oddly shaped and under sized but the project does um a good job of fitting all seven units on the site and fits as much parking as possible and it complies with height um requirements um it and um the ground floor requirement of retail would be a cost prohibitive uh addition and in addition from a zoning and land use perspective it also um it also would add height to the building if we added uh the height because of this odd shape we can't really build out um then it would needed a height variance uh and it would add more parking and it's already doesn't have as much parking uh even though it has more than the amount of units it's already would have needed a parking variant under current zoning um we've talked about uh this specific site um but one um one other thing I wanted to mention and I think I briefly mentioned it at the beginning but I want to go into just a tiny bit more detail the Redevelopment plan that is over here it's just a little bit odd um I will say in my uh 11 years as a Landon zoning attorney I haven't seen something where it was more recommendations and not specific standards and then implemented in the zoning ordinance um and then the zoning ordinance itself prohibits de variances so this is not really like any other Redevelopment plans and um and have we mentioned we had a discussion about proper and improper zoning I I would also say that a Prohibition of a d variant incorporated into a zoning ordinance is improper it's not in a separate Redevelopment plan it's in the zoning ordinance itself that's not proper under the municipal luse law it's not allowed under the municipal land use law it's allowed to be in a local Redevelopment and Housing law Redevelopment plan but that's not what is happening here that's in a zoning ordinance um so for the reasons we stated we believe that the ground floor requirement of retail on this specific property is not proper it would um add cost it would uh be difficult with height and parking and um and the D variant prohibition we believe is improper uh the as I mentioned earlier we still need to go in front of aanus board for a specific project what we're asking here is for zoning specifically um not for the project itself to be approved and we do believe that the zoning is appropriate here multif family residential is allowed here it's not a really a measure of whether multif family residential should be allowed here because it is allowed it's just a measure of um the ground floor commercial retail uh being eliminated as a requirement uh particularly because of this devarian prohibition we can't even go in front of a board and argue um that this is particularly suitable uh we tried that and we believed it was proper to go in front of a board and we still believe we should have been able to be allowed but the board would not accept jurisdiction um so we do believe that what we're proposing is proper we don't think there's going to be any detriment by eliminating that first floor requirement and uh an affordable housing overlay uh you can make it as big or as small as uh the burrow feels necessary but they it's the most narrow Solution by doing an overlay and particularly if it's uh an overlay that is requiring affordable housing rather than um for example just Mark great multif family housing that could be a um you can still have the requirement for the ground floor overl to apply only if you're doing strictly affordable housing which is what we're proposing here so for these reasons we request that the mayor council uh respectfully amend its zoning ordinance and if needed any Redevelopment plan uh to permit what we are proposing here in the form that you believe is appropriate uh we provided both a uh broad solution but also a very narrow solution with the with the overlay that I think is probably um best suited here thank you very much I have a question for either one of you who can feel this um as it relates to property the property and and and the financial condition you know can you can you tell me exactly when uh Mr kugman became the uh involved with this project um with with with uh when he became 51% owner was he a minority partnered before then or do you know do you know state which respect of a redevelopement agreement are you about um in terms of the entity itself yes when did when did he when did he buy into the when when did he buy into that was on the adoption of the third amendment on the third amendment so that was in December of 201 18 all right quick question then um um so it I just saw that I'm I'm crystal clear and understanding it would be fair to say that Mr kugman when avoiding the litigation issue okay it it would be fair to say that Mr kugman wasn't involved uh with the discussions of this property being considered for for um for um for the purposes of red development in terms of the oblig the seven offsite obligations is that correct given the timeline that you gave us yeah so as set forth in Mr klugman's certification which was submitted to the I just want to understand yeah yeah as as we have set forth in front of the court Mr kugman was not involved in those initial discussions when Kevin Cody and Joe foron were involved and that information was then conveyed by L ltina to Mr plogman as well as from other sources on the Redevelopment subcommittee that's how we came to have the knowledge he did and as well as the knowledge you before because we don't have any record of that but that's just we'll look for it but let me ask let me ask you this how how important um is is the financial stability of a de of a of a developer generally speaking when they come into Community is it let me just go back to the point that you just made we do have a record of it we've submitted the paperwork including the subcommittee notes including the certifications and other Associated documents I just want to make sure the record's clear record okay I don't have it so um question then um in terms of the financial viability um of of of uh your client as it relates to this property is he you said that he's willing to he's going to build this this 419 or were you talking about 129 right so what I said before was can't talk about specifics as to any particular details of the financial circumstances that's not appropriate for this venue what I have said and what is true is that what is being built on 419 will be built it will not be sold it will go forward and that is the same is true if it's approved at 610 if we get the approvals it actually Fosters the development and speed of block 419 because of the way the uh the additional units will impact the valuation with respect to Mount Laural okay is paying property taxes an indication a potential indication generally speaking when uh of the financial condition of of Sor I I understand that we're here and it is a public venue but you were you didn't uh finish the question earlier but uh one thing that your start of the earlier question made me think the financial capacity of anybody does not is not an appropriate question in terms of whether zoning is appropriate which is why what we requested here I'm not asking in terms of zoning I understand I said I made it very clear as as I said to you thank you for using the words if before when you didn't put words in my mouth so let's not go down that slippery slope so as I made it very clear this was this is a chance for your client who came into this party multiple times and said he wanted to be a partner wanted to be a member of the community want to participate want all this grandio stuff and this was his chance to address rumors while you're here at a public meeting it's you you don't have to answer but you know as it relates to 120 I I I don't know if you realize that there was a tax sale this morning did you know that tax sale this morning on yes yes I would have to consult our client about yeah there was again it's more than rumor now because there's a fact out there right it's a public record there was a tax so 29 I don't know um what it's sold for the the but but the taxes were unpaid and apparently I I I will 100 I haven't seen the documentation myself but by report to me that this is what occurred on 129 we'll have to look so separate and aart separate and aart separate and apart from the consideration of your request but you are here and and again there's a so when I say needs to address these rumors this is a chance for you to to say we are member of the community and let me clar any misconceptions I I appreciate you bringing the issue to our attention um and we will consult with our client about that and uh like you said it is separate in part from our request and we hope that the mayor and Council focus on our request rather than financial capacities and uh a prolonged discussion about financials rather than zoning which is what we're here for well I I think this that generally speaking uh as as as the agreement came through at the very end of 2018 uh there was there was the the file was devoid of any vetting of your clients Financial Resources by the burrow at the time and so um and in our agreement currently um some of that information is is obligated to be given to us and we haven't received anything so just just to be clear you're saying the file I it's I'm not familiar with the term that you're using there was information provided to you there was not there was no there was no information provided to to uh the the incoming 2019 Administration as it relates relateded to uh the financial conditions of of your client so the burrow the burrow and it was requested it was requested and under the terms of our agreement existing agreement there's an obligation for you to give us that some of that information we haven't received it so it's it's an opportunity this this presentation is also an opportunity for me to ask for this stuff now again I I I disagree in the sense that I don't think it's appropriate to be discussing um obligations and what sounds like hints at theault under agreements in a public forum rather than um by the terms of what the agreement states and uh going through the proper channels I don't think this is the proper form for it especially when like you said this is separate and apart from our request I don't think that this we don't get to have you guys here in the same room very often in front of the public Adam I I appreciate your concern for for those types of well you're entitled to your opinion but there's nothing improper about the request it's a public document that your client signed and it's it's and the request is the public it's it's is called transparency in government and I know you know attorneys that are not in government know don't like that sometimes but it's it's it's the document is public the obligations are public and you know we would like to have you guys come you know cooperate with us be members of the community as promised by your client I just want to make sure we're clear on one thing on the record sure the redeveloper was fully vetted by the prior Council when the third amendment was negotiated and when it went through he was ful he was let me let me finish receive let him finish this the fact that you did or didn't receive anything I I don't know those facts but what happened when there there was a replacement of the 51% managing member by the last Council when there was an adoption of the third amendment that was fully vetted can you provide me with those documents because we don't have them if you make a request in any sort of form with with the litigation pending we'll respond to that request we're not just going to on this fair enough fair enough fair enough because because maybe we don't have the entire record okay thank you Mr kugman did your C want to speak or anything it's not this capacity okay can can I say one thing Mr okay um I think I'd like to open up to the public about we can we can we can after I think you have to see where you are at the agenda all right you want me to so um so let me just respond to you at this point um we had asked our planner we have asked our planner to be here um she's not able to attend so um she's she's going to review the record your testimony or black excuse me for calling you testimony your public statements and she and we will go we will be hearing from her and I will notice you when she's going to be here and you're welcome to come and chat with her um uh as as we did with um with with your with your people fair enough fair fair enough okay she so we keep we're not going to make any determinations tonight we're trying to get it here just so you understand we're trying to get here for the next meeting we haven't received confirmation on that yet uh if not it'll be the meeting after H it's it's really she everyone all the planners as you know right now are running around as we come to the end of October uh with with the fourth round um to that end um Mr MCD has to run to another hearing sure sure um if there are specific questions for him we can always provide those answers after we might be able to call him in the in his car ride over but uh I completely understand and yes I I'm not I'm in L use I understand that there are lots of different hearings we have lots of different obligations um and uh we thank the mayor and Council for uh letting us know that and and explaining the reason why a decision will be made tonight and um and we we completely understand that reason I think the mayor wanted to say something to wrap it up so feel free go so that you like okay Mr client can I address your client yes Mr kugman we don't often have an audience here and we have several people online watching the meeting and your property did go for tax sale this morning um 129 Kinder KAC which is the project in question and I think that a lot of the residents of Emerson are concerned that this project is not going to be finished and I know that you're attorney Mr kimman respectfully said that it would be but I think they need some kind of reassurance from you as the 51% shareholder of this that this project is solvent and that it is not going to stand as a white elephant in the center of our town for the next 10 to 20 years can you give us any Assurance to that yeah so I was happy to have you POS the question to my client but as I said before we're currently in litigation we're not going to answer specifics I made what on on your request I made a general representation as to what's going to happen with the project okay but it's not appropriate from our litigation standpoint probably from Burrows as well that have Mr kugman a direct party in the various lawsuits from answering something like that thank you thank you Mr but none of the lawsuits are had have anything to do with the building of the building which is a misconception in terms of the the building the current building block 610 there's an appeal pending right now under briefing on that very issue that's my my concern is there's active litigation involving this issue if you've got a request send it to us we'll consult we'll prepare something and send it back to you okay I appreciate that thank you only so that we have an answer for our residents okay so so we'll leave the record open um before we take any official action and um as soon as I know where our planner stands with our next meeting I will let you guys know uh by email as we've been communicating and and again free feel free to come back we just so that you know we we wanted to get you in as quickly as possible we immediately reached out to Caroline when you accepted the invitation and she was already as Mr McAn said um do somewhere else this evening and I believe she is available not at the next meeting but maybe the meeting after that okay and does this uh mayor and Council have any special meetings um or we don't have any on the books right now but if if if we feel that um that's what's Best in order to get Caroline and your planners together um we will entertain that if it's necessary and we we'll continue this after uh the discussion about uh timing and scheduling and then I'm sure get the public enough notice about everything sure so we appreciate that and we do just want to analyze to make sure we're all in compliance with whatever judge Carol was written I have to look at that again I know there was some time frames in there okay yeah we'll comply with whatever judge Carol is asking well I think when judge Carol sent out the the his letter I responded very next morning I didn't get the email till the morning anymore okay all right so we're GNA leave the record open but I'm going to move on in the agenda yes so I want to thank you for the presentation and for coming in this evening and we'll see you again Roberta we're we're just going to continue with the agenda and then we're going to open up to the public so if you could just you can't really it's not long it's not going to be long no she wants to address them but it's not really proper for you to address the the applicant when the application it's really technically not an application but if it was an application it's not proper for the um public to address the applicant and make them answer when all of their people are not present and one of their planners has already left the room to be in another municipality all the questions have come to the bo the public wants to State their questions on the record too we can certainly do that and then we since we're going to be coming back anyway we can provide Fuller answers to all the questions I think that would be um you know a appropriate and a good idea so the public can get their questions in we might not be able to answer them right now but we have to come back anyway so we can provide a fuller response to those questions well the core and and the rules requir all public questions have to be directed towards us anyway as you know right as you know so but we will try so are you going to stay for the for the Open Session yes okay but you're not going to answering questions you'll just be taking note of the questions and then when you come back you will have answers prepared to the question try our best to address it especially if it hasn't been addressed already it has been we'll point to our presentation yes we will try our best to answer questions from the public and from the mayor and Council if the mayor and Council has specific questions okay uh that you either want to State on the record or provide um you know I think this evening the mayor and Council will wait until our experts have um Digest Ed the presentation and given us a report on it we'll first have questions for her and then possibly um for you after we consult with her understood and the only request we would make is if that report can be sent to us in enough advance of the of the meeting that we will be able to digest it and be able to properly um respond to it or discuss it as best that we can and if you feel that you didn't have enough time then you'll let us know and we we will reschedule because I want you to have enough time but I also don't know what Caroline's work schedule is and how quickly get to something but if you can reiterate that request to her that we we would I will ask for as expeditiously as possible and and just fin this decision on this is is is strictly narrow to the issue of your requests right the other questions with regard to the financial conditions of the developer is out there and we were trying to take take the opportunity for him to address the public and the concerns and address some of these delays uh that we've been experiencing for the last two years okay so we're going to move on in the agenda to new business there is no business to discuss this evening uh the next item is Introduction of ordinances there is there are no ordinances to introduce number 13 adoption of ordinances there are no ordinances to adopt this evening which brings us to reports um which Mr Herman sent you have a report or would you like me to do mine first do yours first I'll go I'm going to through a very quick report um free paper Leaf Bags will be available to residents at the DPW garage beginning on Monday October 7th on a first come first sered basis bags may be collected by homeowners only Monday to Saturday 8:00 a.m. to noon through November 10th 20 bags per household will be given out during the first round of distribution please note that there will be no distribution of leaf bags on Monday October 14th due to the Columbus holiday congratulations to the library Board of Trustees and director Camille Valentino on their hard work on the Carnival recognizing the 50th anniversary of the Emerson Public Library at 20 Palisade Avenue despite the weather there was a strong turnout and it was a great event where we got to see a lot of our residents to celebrate a grand opening for a local infusion center a new business in Emerson will be specializing in treating patients with chronic autoimmune conditions will be held at 4:33 old Hook Road Unit 4 tomorrow October 2nd they will be a welcome addition to the Burrows business Community our motive vehicle on wheels will be at the senior center October 4th from 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. there's more information about that on the website the environmental commission is holding the upcycle garage sale this Saturday October 5th um the list of the participants will be on our website as well as in the pasac valley um pass CAC it's just called the Pas CAC press on in the pasac Press um the Bergen County Utilities Authority will conduct the tire recycling mobile paper shredding unwanted medication takeback and electronics computer collections at campg Mountain Reserve in Mawa this Sunday October 6th from 9: to 2 the Bergen County Clerk satellite office will be accepting passport applications photos will be taken on site um at at and a large array of other services on on Wednesday October 9th from 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. more information on those services are on our website as a reminder for our seniors the next senior meeting will take place on Thursday October 10th um please join if you're 55 and older it's $12 um yesterday we actually um had a uh lunch in I am a member of the seniors had a lunch um that was part of the community outreach by shopright and everybody came down it was enjoyed there's a lot of nice um Community engagement down at the senior center for those 55 and older um register to get a flu shot through the Health Department's flu clinic on Thursday October 10th 11: to 12:00 p.m. at the senior center the last day to register to vote in the November 5th election is Tuesday October 15th the clerk's office will be open till 900 p.m. for late night voter registration um there's two important programs that I'd like to encourage eligible residents to participate in for property tax relief the anchor rebate program which provides up to $1,750 to income eligible homeowners or renters more information could be found at anchor. nj.gov the deadline is November 30th and the state's 2023 senior freeze program which reimburses eligible seniors and disabled persons for property tax increases on their principal residents applications are being accepted through October 30th for further information on either of these programs you can contact Lauren at the tax office uh another program that I strongly encourage residents to look into is Emerson Home Improvement program which provides up to $117,000 in assistance to qualified residents who meet eligibility requirements to make needed repairs for roofs foundations heating electrical Windows insulation plumbing and more please visit the burough website for more information adjustment have been made to the Lynwood Avenue traffic light to improve the flow of traffic during the periods of 7:45 a.m. and 8:45 p a.m. and 2:45 p.m. to 3:45 p.m. Monday to Friday during these times there are 15 extra seconds of green light I invite those who pass through during those times to contact the burrow administrator to let you know if you're feeling any relief from that or even if you're not uh the fire department is holding its annual fire safety open house on Wednesday October 16th the mayor's Wellness campaign will be having a community conversation on opioid misuse on Thursday October 24th from 7 to 8:30 uh we did do one in the spring on opioid misuse it was poorly attended but so much valuable information was was given to everyone that was there and I encourage everyone to come to that it is at the senior center um and I'll provide refreshments if it gets you to come on down I have a couple of save the dates for you the Recreation Commission is busy planning the fall Harvest Festival for Sunday October 20th at Hillman field from 1: p.m. to 5:00 p.m. details are on the website our uh confidential shredding paper day again for the fall is Saturday November 2nd and it will be from 9:00 a.m. to 1 p.m. down at the DPW recycling center the Emerson Board of Health is sponsoring a free rabies clinic vaccination for dogs and cats on Saturday November 9th from 11: to 12 at the DPW garage the governing body in American Legion Post 269 will be honoring those who have served our country at our Veterans Day ceremony on Monday November 11th at 11:00 a.m. at the senior center and our Police Department's community policing program will be generously providing a full breakfast to those in attendance at 10:00 a.m. uh more information on all of the events are available on the burrow website or by contacting the clerk's office burrow Hall will be closed October 14th in observance of the Columbus Day holiday the next regular meeting of the Emerson governing body will take place on Tuesday October 15th at 7:30 p.m. right here in council chambers and to all of our Jewish residents and Friends celebrating rashishana and yam kapor happy New Year and may you have an easy fast in addition um the clerk's office will be open 11:00 a.m. to 12: p.m. providing information on the property alert service okay this is I know what this is so the there there's this new scam that's going on with seniors where people are um getting hold of your deeds and before you know it somebody else owns your house and the is that correct is that a good explanation they're recording fraudulent Deeds so the the the Bergen County clerk's office from 11:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. on that same day that they're going to be here um we'll be providing information on that and let you know how to sign up for notifications should somebody try to change the deed to your home correct Michelle is the one that brought this to my attention so I ask her for confirmation on that or on your mortgage so please look for more information on that if you're not clear on what I was explaining and you want more info please call Michelle um and she will explain it to you from the office register right and if you want to be registered to get the alert in case someone does try to change your deed or your mortgage um they will help you with that as well um Rob do you have any report for us this evening go quick we rebid our garbage bid uh and it's going to be reopened we're reopening it on the 10th of October we're looking uh forward to the bids coming forward with the garbage uh we had had a a resident Reach Out to us to discuss uh what was going on with garbage trucks coming out at some spots a little earlier uh than normal uh the reason being for the uh you're seeing some of the garbage trucks earlier is because of the psng road workor they're trying to get to the residents beforehand so that before the roads get closed and to making sure that they don't miss residents garbage as opposed to having it closed and then having to try to get back and double back so there it's a temporary condition so if you do see a garbage truck out there a little earlier than normal that is the reason why they're there they're trying to make it efficient to make sure that they continue to hit all our houses as long as it's happening in the areas that the psng is working if it's somewhere else and PS isn't working please call Mr Hermanson and we will Rectify that um we have a deadline for our part-time violations clerk position is November 1st that we have open we're asking people anyone who's interested to please apply our our cut off our part-time fire inspector position is tomorrow also at 4 p.m. um we had our safety meeting on September 26th we did very very well again with our report uh we continue to do well with the with our uh going with our for with with our safety side Sydney Lane pump station is almost done we're waiting on the electrician to just kind of connect everything and put everything together he is tied up with another job and so we're getting we're waiting for him to get back to do this but uh we expect him shortly to finish that and have that finished very quickly the tribute banners uh we've had a few more tribute banners military tribute banners come in uh I want to thank everybody again for that program for for you know subscri subscribing to those uh it has it always does uh my heart very well to go through here and see as many veterans that we've seen through the town and to continue to see the program uh adding to people's names as we each year and the last thing that I have is that the acan basketball courts are finished they have been paved repaved and painted and they are almost they they're pretty much ready to be reopened we're just waiting for uh the our engineer to tell us that we can ready to go and he has given given me pretty much the go ahead that we're looking into doing that it's all dry and settled yes so we're pretty much ready plan a ribbon cutting yes and that's my report thank you rob um does any council member have anything that is timely before our next meeting that they'd like to report to the public okay two quick things for w soccer social is Friday October 2th uh you can reach out on Emerson uh re Facebook page or directly to Emerson soccer for more information and then PR football and cheer are having a white out this Saturday October 5th uh at the high school from 1: to 6:30 p.m. uh it's the only home game in Emerson this year so looking for people to come out and support a that's fun in between my garage sale be running over um that concludes our reports and brings us to public public comment so thank you for being patient the next order of business is public comment members of the public are welcome to speak on any topic by coming to the podium and stating your name for the record in the interest of time speakers are limited to 3 minutes in consideration of all who may wish to speak please keep your comments brief and concise may I have a motion to open the meeting to public comment all in favor any opposed we are open to the public Roberta really it's a now I'm just gonna warn you it is a comment sens it's not a question answer so come up and say what you want to say into the microphone state your name you don't have to give your address but I see you have some strong emotion I know you I have to form this into com I gather these or or a question into the air that everyone will hear including the of these gentlemen in the first row don't live in emers they don't have to tell me if they do or not but I just have a feeling they don't the fact of the matter that I heard tonight for the first time that they want to put more of Apartments ground level not put retail uh surprises me because they're making this town and this one lawyer I just don't remember his name actually this gentleman and the gentleman also with the great they were planers not lawyers makes this town sound like shangra Beverly Hills it's not can I turn and just you should tell me but they'll hear you it's not and they'll know you're talking to them trust me it's not it's not then they haven't gone through Emerson they I don't know what town they're talking about when they're talking about this town I don't know what the hell they're talking about because there's no retail at all there's no restaurants whatsoever in the beginning when I saw the construction in the beginning before this was built it was beautiful it had the retail the and I thought a restaurant then the restaurant couldn't go in um that's what attracts people to our town not apartments on ground level the other thing is the traffic horrendous it's horrendous you would never live in this town because of the traffic you couldn't stand it we're all used to it and we just roll our eyes we're all used to it my oh I can't ask a question okay so so what you're saying is this is eventually you can ask a question it just won't get answered but if you have a question ask it okay I'm confused how can something get built if it's been in the courts for four years and it's going to continue to be in the courts how are you going to complete this building I just don't quite understand that and I don't think that was addressed I'm not sure I'm not a lawyer I don't know the zoning I this should never have been built from the beginning and one other thing to the gentleman that was sitting here the lawyer he was talking about Mount Laurel the way I understood Mount Laurel is a town and as of 2022 there's a complex for affordable housing that is not completed as of 2022 now this is 2024 it might be but it is not completed has nothing to do with with what's going on in our town it was a couple that either couldn't afford an living an apartment they went to the court the court they fought I'm getting this a little mixed up but they fought it the state was on their side and it happened in the town of Mount Laurel so I was a little confused about what he was saying it started with the couple that started this and they won their argument and this is how it all got started this is a very small town the deer don't even have a place to go and we're building and building and building and we have deer as our neighbor so it's got to stop it has to stop and anyway what are you doing about the deer the deer is a regional problem not an ERS they don't know borders make a phone call can't they be like um you know you shoot them and since you're over your three minutes I'll ask you to take your seat you can come back but I want to give someone else an opportunity and I think Mr mccan just has one comment on one of the questions that you had yeah just the comment the the litigation in in the project the the delay of the project or the building of the project in the two are not really essentially got nothing to do with each other the the litigation is a m is a subject matter a breach of contract that we brought against uh the redeveloper uh regarding um a commitment that was made in the contract that is disputed by the developer uh so that's the litigation so that has nothing to do with the the the project slowing down or being that's one of the reasons why I wanted them to address the questions that I was asking them as an opportunity for people like you to to hear their response to their to the the the all the stuff is but it's not the litigation that's slowing it down we don't know why it's being slowed down okay um what anyone else Mr Todd councilman Todd former councilman Todd quick question um or whether you can answer can you speak into the mic please oh sure whe you can you mentioned that there's a property that will be up for a tax sale can you discuss what that means I think a lot of people you know I I could explain it too so there was a tax sale this morning there were three properties listed on it it's public Doc it's a public document one was a residential home uh one was 129 Kinder KAC and the third one I think was also a commercial property commercial property and what it means is if the property taxes are in a rear for a certain amount of time uh it somebody as an investment can can buy the lean on the taxes and they can charge the person interest on the taxes that are owed and if for some reason they default on paying the taxes then a lean goes on the property I'm surprised you don't know this being a former counselor I I do I didn't think okay all right I thought okay so then thank you going through so if someone buys the lean on the T buys the interest on the taxes they can charge the interest on the taxes if the tax interest isn't paid to that person on the principal and on the taxes then a Leen is put on the property and before the property can change Hands by deed to to another buyer if they want to sell the property I I believe does the the lean Holder have right of first ref refusal on the property maybe I'm not it depends upon what's going on in the property but that lean has to be satisfied before the property change but it doesn't mean the property was sold yeah it doesn't mean that you're buying the property for the for the taxes correct like if you owe 10,000 on a piece of property that's worth a million you paying the 10,000 doesn't give you the million dollar piece of property it puts a lean on the de to that property so that it can't be transferred until that lean is satisfied and just to just to be fair about this okay with tax leans it's not an unusual situation where a commercial developer have finds themselves in these issu with these issues there's different other disputes that are out there but U I suspected based upon the presentation they didn't know that's why I was bringing up I didn't think and they didn't and they didn't know thank you for Thea moment sure yes what anyone else from the public wish to speak your address is no longer needed just your name please welcome I'm going to be really short just please speak into the mic okay I would say that um a majority of the residents in this town aren't opposed to affordable housing what we're opposed to is um what's the name of the company again that's doing this Emerson urban devel urban R I just want to get the name youel um I think we're opposed to the fact that they're not upholding the commitment to complete this in a timely manner to the chair can't talk to them okay in a timely manner that's what we're opposed to the residents drive by that every day and it's an eyesore and if you think it doesn't affect property values you're out of your mind now our taxes are high we pay that for a reason because we love this town but you know we've really been let down here so I want to ask a couple questions was there a performance Clause did Lou build that into the agreement no there was no performance Clause put in place it was W initially and then it was suspended on the on that last minute deal okay but L on the on the approval of the third amendment yes okay okay okay um and what I want to know is will there be a performance Clause with this new seven unit residential so building so the way this is framed they're try they're trying to bootstrap this as part of seven unit commitment that they're claiming that Lou had promised them yes it's just shorthand yes that's in litigation okay so outside of just framing that issue it would be not proper for me to to get into specifics okay about that okay uh I will say this that um if it is found that um if it is found that the 129 is part of Fort 19 then the answer probably would be no so we could end up with another structure possibly not completed and there's no performance Clause to um behoove them to complete it okay that's good to understand and will there be a traffic study done as there was that's up to the land use for that's up to them okay that's great those are my questions um I just feel that the Emerson residents are owed more you know there's not a good a track record here and now the residents are up against another building that can possibly sit there it's not good it's not looking good and on behalf of all the residents I just I know you guys hear us you're residents you pay taxes here so I just want it on the record and thank you for your time thank you for your comments would Roberto let's give everyone a first chance and then we'll go back Mr ow I haven't seen you in a while bird it's good to see you good Mr ow yeah good evening um just I I left the room earlier because I came here it said uh on the agenda Emerson ER llc's application for relief from Emerson's zoning lances for the purpose of constructing seven affordable housing units in in site properly located at 129 that road they brought in somebody to talk first of all somebody that was from a defunct agency that the state already said didn't do their job we had somebody there and there were lies there were I hope that everybody understood I couldn't sit here anymore and listen to it because it All Pure lies first of all the people it's not going to teachers and it's not going to firemen it's not going to police so let's stop the nonsense it's desegregation is what it is I said the word you've all heard it we know what it is he said himself and if we're going to sit here or in my case stand here and apologize because we're white because that's what he was doing he was saying the percentage of people in this town that are right like it's like it's a problem and it's it's just wrong it should be discussed it's it's it it's not why we're here and I don't know I don't know if it's make us feel bad like oh we have to let in affordable housing affordable housing and race don't have anything to do with each other I happen to be white my father and grandfather Holocaust Survivors with everything going on in Israel right now we wouldn't qualify for affordable housing even if we made less money even if we uh met the financial requirements because it's not what it is it's not it's not a lottery it's all a lie it's just not how it goes secondly they said you can pick who Liv there that's not true that's not true they give you an order of 10 people in order and you can't I can't just say I I happen to live in the building I can't say no criminals in my building you have a criminal record you're not commenor I can't say that what they're doing is they're forcing me to live with potential criminals in my building with my wife that's not happening just won't happen there's so much more there was corruption there are names in Bob Brock 419 that are pretty powerful in New Jersey that I'd like to know what happened to those names they disappeared out of the project as soon as it was approved I don't know why uh again more more question questions and answers um and this will come by the way I house homeless people for free for many years nemerson and it's pretty well known so I'm not I'm not here saying that uh just because a person's down or doesn't have money they don't deserve housing far the things from the truth first I want housing to go to people that deserve it in my case I have gas attendant I have people working in my store they have to leave there at the end of the day and go home because they're low paying jobs to to crap and Burg field you know the the parts of hackin saac Garfield while somebody who just you know may working 40 hours a week and could qualify for the affordable housing gets to live in a beautiful luxury apartment so my guy's working 70 hours a week and goes home to crap and somebody coming in working 40 hours a week and it's not teachers and it's not uh it's not police officers we get that out of my mind so I'm supposed to now it just doesn't make sense and I was very offended that that gentleman was allowed to continue speaking it's not what we were here to talk about the seven units lastly um I mean we're in a obviously a bad situation here with everything going on uh my question to Mr mccan is can the burrow negotiate approval um to ER for the seven units if they were to agree to a timeline to finish block 419 we have had for the last several years several several um negotiations and trying to resolve this issue um it there was even another Law Firm involved a couple years ago that I went down and spent hours with um so um it has always been our position legally speaking and it's generally the position of the courts that settlement is preferred um we I can say this openly we recently proposed something that's being until tonight I didn't know is I implied being rejected but we haven't had an official response yet the ISS the response tonight was it's almost identical to a previous fun from last year um and that you know and that is it is true the way the agreement is written that we have to cooperate with each other but cooperating with each other doesn't mean I buy something and uh and I knew what it was and then I get to go back and say well this is what we intended because some some that's why I was focusing on the word borrow with the attorney because it's just it's not it's not in our record and um so the answer to your question is anything is possible in the negotiation it's been arduous it's been um difficult but that's what that's what you hired me for right to do the difficult if it was easy everyone could do it so My Hope Is My Hope Is that we can always resolve disputes but it takes it takes a party of two witness the Middle East as you bring up time um so uh if you have one side that wants to destroy another side um you it's it's impossible to discuss so um you know it my hope is you know always that we can try to resolve the matter but uh that agreement that was done at the LA I come I come back to that every time that was done at the last minute before the official change of government would was done in a in a way that just I could I never I been I was an elected official I still am again I never would have done that to a to never never any other just one last thing the gentleman uh was saying about again back to you know teachers and that I just want people to realize that once a person qualifies for affordable housing it's for life so that teacher who maybe just started instead they just started their job and they're making whatever and they deserve affordable housing absolutely they work the way up through the ranks they become superintendent make $300,000 a year guess what they get to stay in the affordable housing it's it's it's rent control in New York City New Jersey version and it doesn't work it's been proven New York City has 30,000 vacant units 30,000 because of this affordable housing and rent control it's nonsense I know it's out of our control we're in a Democrat State and it's just the way it is but thank you very much for your time I just want to say you have some of the nicest cleanest 7-Eleven I've ever seen and the people that you employ are fantastic I appreciate that thank you d what anyone else from the public Patricia hi um I just have one thing that I want to microphone please I want to say to Mr McAn especially I for a fact know that the uh new developer was introduced at a meeting because I was there I personally asked a question was this man vetted because now we've got this man out of nowhere and what do we know about him do we know anything is HE capable of doing all the work is HE capable of paying his bills is HE capable of getting this accomplished and the answer I was given was well he's vetted underneath the uh other persons vetting and I said uh that's not how vetting works and for some reason you're trying to pull this over on us was that said on the record to you that was during public comment to yes I I got up and I asked questions because I wanted to know who this man was who all of a sudden is taking over and I said you know well how much vetting has been done well we don't have to vet him because he's part of the other person's vetting and I said that's not how that works this is not okay I said and I personally want to know what's going to happen here well I got told a million other you know results that were just a bunch of Boney but um now we're in the middle of this and I look at this every day CU I live right down the street and I would like to know is it going to be finished and now we're starting to talk about another place are we going to do the same thing there this is very upsetting to me because I was through all of this when this happened and I got no results no answers and here we are and I'm really really upset over the fact that you're still not getting any answers from these people as to whether or not they were actually going to finish this whole project it cannot stay this way forever it's awful and now we're starting another project there has to be some kind of something that we get from them in order to say we are going to finish this and we are not leaving your town looking like a disaster that's all I want to say but I ask all those questions that you were asking earlier I asked them just so let you know we're going to track that down actually oh if you could these meetings every single one of them and I asked those questions I don't know what happened to the notes from those meetings but I I did get up at ask because I wanted to know yeah there there's there's a lot of moving Parts in the current litigation maybe representative represent what when this thing is finished it may not it may this as we learned more facts and go through more documents and we've been going through it you know Co was an interruption In fairness to to the redeveloper but I was personally here I asked the question questions I got bogus answers Pat I asked the questions too in the back room yeah well I got I stood here asked in front of everybody so just so you know I didn't get any answers oh well it's just under him and I was like that's not how that's not right so just so you know I I have some of that information thank you for coms thank you anyone else for first time anyone else Roberta come on uper someone who doesn't like to talk in front of people I don't know I didn't even have a [Laughter] drink I understand that a lot of towns are coming together and fighting this and fighting you mean the new the new La the new the new scheme the new distribution of units thank yeah of affordable housing um I think it's $10,000 that the town has to contribute 20,000 20 are is Emerson part of this fight if we were could we fight what's going to happen I hope not across the street from the Dunkin Donuts uh what's going on with the Dunkin Donuts is part of the previous settlement agreement from 2017 I have the date right again am I wrong about that okay it's 2017 so the two issues are separate and apart they've got nothing to do with each other except for I I know that it's out in The Ether that there are people you know with this this um lawsuit that was filed let's just say this about that okay if if it had Merit if it was determined by so it's got nothing to do with that it's all me if if it was determined that there was a chance and to spend just $10,000 of the Burrow's money I would recommend to the governing body to do so but it is on me that I am not recommending that we enter into that lawsuit because when the lawsuit was proposed it was proposed by a certain mayor he didn't call up anyone else but maybe three or four of his other mayor Pals and just said this is what we're doing and put it out there right right I know the attorney who filed the lawsuit he's a mayor in another town I've actually worked with him in a town where when I was a school board attorney he was a buo attorney so I'm very familiar with with the attorney and I'm not sure that his town even joined the lawsuit his his town didn't even join the lawsuit um so I I just looked at it and just said From taxpayers perspective as if it was my dollars I don't think it's well spent and I don't think it's limiting to $10,000 and there's like this like this agreement ended up open-ended it that that looks very open-ended to me um and I'm not critical of what they're trying to do but it seemed more political than legal if that makes any sense no totally but what's bothering to to me is that I don't mind these units we can have 10 of them M but they're squeezing it in an area where there's no room no one came down from the state to say oh you're going to put it there by the railroad tracks oh no that's that's really not conducive to this town where the traffic is coming from all over it just doesn't make any sense the square footage doesn't support this humongous building it just doesn't I don't know how I know Money Talks I know it's all political I don't know how this is all got done right how someone didn't say hey come down come look at Emerson from Trenton and see our footprint of this little Choo Cho Town it was meant for you know people to get on the train and go to work and a story they never wanted any restaurants retail it was just a sleepy town now we have one side where the stores are here and now we have this monstrosity and it's up here how does that make it pretty for people to come to our town and spend money there's okay I want not but thank you very much appreciate it they're wrong okay I'm done I'm done I'm done thank you would anyone else wish to speak seeing No Hands may I have motion to close the uh public portion of the meeting second all in favor any opposed that brings us to resolutions on the consent agenda may I have a motion to approve consent agenda under resolutions two resolutions 226-244 d24 second roll call please Council I babbled but there's so much to babble about yes councilwoman R yes councilwoman Maguire yes council president Timberman yes and councilwoman s yes thank you um with all that being done may I have a motion to go into closed executive session to discuss matters exempt from the public pursuant to njsa 104-1 and SEC and adequately noticed by resolution number 23524 second roll call Council councilwoman right councilwoman McGuire council president Timberman and councilwoman sers yes we're now going into close session members of the public May remain on YouTube until we return to open to session at which time motion to reconvene so move second all in favor I any oppos do we have any other business discussed after coming out of closed session sure I'd like to make a motion uh for resolution 23624 to award a contract for Professional Services to FSD Enterprises LLC for wireless telecommunications consultant can I get a second second that's Ashley and a roll call please councilwoman arenia yes councilwoman rice councilwoman Maguire yes council president Timberman yes and councilwoman sers yes passes 5 Z mayor right here's a motion I know I'll get can I get a motion to adjourn and a second all in favor I