##VIDEO ID:khQWGmrcV2I## [Music] all right we call meeting to order this is a regular meeting of the environmental Commission of the buau of Fair Haven in accordance with the provisions of the open public meetings ACT public meetings may be held in person or by means of communication equipment including streaming services and other online meeting platforms this meeting is being held in person and through the zoom meeting platform being broadcast from burrow Hall 748 River Road public participation for this meeting on October 9th is available by call and phone number or through Zoom members of the public will not sorry members of the public will be on mute until it is time for questions comments which will be announced at that time the public has the opportunity to question comment by phone or through Zoom by the raise hand button and will be called on at the appropriate time not of the meeting was sent to the Asbury Park Press the Two River times and the Star Ledger on October 3rd posted on the municipal uh website bulletin board and the municipal building and has remained continuously posted as required under the statute with adequate notice having been given the environmental commission secretary is directed to include this statement in the minutes of the meeting thank you let stand for the pledge aliance to the flag unit States Amer AR is it okay if we mute you until U it makes sense to talk yeah no problem thanks roll call Tom ba here Jesse Murray absent Anna anonin here William dorer here Kelly Flanigan here Susan globis here Gary Patterson here Jonathan Peters absent Olson is not here also president F secretary Larson you have a quum thank you uh first item of business is the approval of our September meeting minutes um they were related with everybody last week any questions concerns comments motion to approve motion to approve second third okay we get a vote all those in favor of approving the minutes all right thank you um Christie thank you for doing a great job capturing the workshop portion of that I think that is uh a little bit challenging having everybody all over the room so thank you for helping with that part um cool so we've got a few items on the agenda tonight a few areas and it'll kind of make sense as we get to them but um not necessarily have a specific conversation at the end the meeting on just budget but actually have it kind of throughout so with that we can roll right into an update on our ER okay so you got a um a version of it I apologize for it not being on Google Docs I was having trouble getting the images in there so I just took it off because there was a lot of rearranging rewriting and I wanted to see it with the images in the doc so the images that are on your draft copy are just placeholders so you can like them or not like them and um what I did was identify who the audience is for the document and once I did that it made it easier to edit because it's Council it's zoning board planning board Educators us of course and um the public and I use that as the filter to edit it it's a wonderful document it can be used as a textbook but the issue is that it's so large I'm not sure it would be read and and the purpose of it is to be a reference document and so I just went through and took out um some things that I didn't I wanted to focus on things that are really pertinent to Fair Haven alone basically give it some context so when you read it keep that in mind and ibody for their comments and I was working for from a couple different versions so if I miss some just add them in we can put it back on Google Docs and there are some areas that I would like to um offer to others to write because I don't feel qualified to write them and so you'll see those comments in there too and like I said the images I mean I pulled images off my phone I pulled images from websites and just uh gave them attribution but I did the biggest part of it I think Sean and somebody else wanted why don't we start with um some of our beautiful environmental assets here so I put that in an overview and I tried to name all of them and give pictures of them so the idea is to make it change the tone so it's more accessible I thought it was a great that beginning was really help kind ince here that we're talking about good thank you I think you captured it so it's not complete but it's a decent first draft so um so it's a are there images like I don't want to say like stock photos but like are there like this burrow Hall like would Administration have like some of them I took off uh the Burl website okay and betan has a house like she houses all those if you need any of those in a different format she can help you great yeah and um some of them are just they need to be reshot like the bird sanctuary for one and today I walked to the acne so I took another shot of marter Parkers recogniz I haven't looked at it yet but we'll see and so then the other thing editorial do we want people using the assets or do we want them without people those kind of editorial decisions we can go through and make but um just keep that stuff in well I don't know would you to have them sign off if um you post their picture oh absolutely they're mive you can use photos that that you grab off the internet for educational purposes you could stretch this to say that you but but they're copyright issues for sure and I think John was going to update Maps some maps right yeah did you get updated map from him or no I no I wonder how these Maps might have changed too I do too yes I can't I can't vouch for okay so you'll see my comments which are either in bold when I need help or um but feel free to add Comin yourselves of course okay so where you want people to help author you put it in bold here yeah and called okay great and honestly I think because the storm water issue is such an issue that we got to reorient it reorganize it so after we got all the information my thought is people's attention span isn't what it used to be so prioritizing some of the content might might happen too yeah make it short because the idea is to make it usable right it I couldn't even find it on our website it's not called out at which I don't know if we need to make a motion to do that but when we put the time and effort into this and it's got a lot of good information right I think we want it as visible as possible as visible and I also think too where you could um click on what section you think you need to read that will take you there yeah it should be its own page then so that it like lives on the we it's like not a PDF it should be built as a as a page so that it then you can click and open the images because not everyone needs all this thing but they might just want to go so if anybody wants to reorganize it the way you're talking about because I'm not sure what you're saying I've got it my maybe who is the who is like the web develop okay so we can work withan on you actually try make a site with you would click into if you sometimes you can embed it as [Music] um some type of format where you're to click on a sidebar like a menu and it can still like take you there I don't know the technical but I know that I've seen documents that are embedded in you know sites that you can look up and click on and it will totally fre well some of this information is going to change before the next one is done so my thought if is if if this will be distributed digitally just hot link right the source right because recycling there was like a two pages of recycling information in the document that I got well that's change already have yeah and so I just put the bur website recycling link and if we do that we can shorten this sure like okay cross references yeah just not link it to the original Source because that will be the that will be updated yeah that will be the source that'll be yeah that's I see what yeah so that we don't have to write it out and then yeah that's fine yeah I know what you're talking about it would be the sections would be on the left hand side all every section storm water recycling whatever climate the table contents essentially and then when you click on it it will just it just moves to it kind of like even you know jump to the recipe like you know that's easy do I don't need to read all that um that can should live on the burough website under the environmental commission it does but it's not it's impossible it's like I have ask Chris where on the website I was even in our our Tab and it's like buried in there you can put things anywhere you want just ask B in she's happy to help put you organized her web page great that's okay so do you for like the editing part where you've got some of the Bold texts um do you know who needs to like do you need us to go in and look at it or do you need to know do you know who would be the author of some of that content probably not I I don't know who wrote this in the first place they did an excellent job there's just a tremendous amount of information and I was just trying to take it out of Academia a little bit into average person the street which I understand as of today is an eighth grade education it used to be a ninth grade but anyway um so I was trying to make the tone like that um so no Sean I don't so and and you may read it and say I tried to take adjectives out of it to make it to make it impartial sure and then there is a thought is this this really isn't a chamber of commerce document you know let's get really specific about the intent of the document and I think some of the information in there can come out still so we did talk to Jesse about that she's been traveling but she said she would dive in and take a look at some things and she gave she gave you the go- ahead to really yeah just start take it down and okay and reconfigure it so once she's kind of back and settled she said she'd take a look okay um so I guess the action is then for all of us to take another crack at it with this version um have a look before next month and do you have like a certain like do you want to be at a certain point like do you want to have all the comments and reviewed by next month do you want to come back with the comments and discuss next month like what do you guys think in Timeline wise I don't know a month sounds I don't I don't know what Jesse's schedule is I would be really comfortable if she had time to look at this and then also and everybody you know talking to John Peters about what some of maps can be updated and What needs you schule okay so try to catch up with Jesse try to pin down John if you want more images it sounds like betan would be a great place to start for getting I don't want to take on all this work by myself just because I don't have the time to do it but so if we could figure out like by next month maybe everybody adds comments in and then we see what needs to be done because um I just I'll be traveling and I don't know got okay yeah so aim for another Vision yeah I think we should everybody should go in there you can make it a Google doc you don't have to download it so you can convert it yourself to do go in there we can all kind of check it out right add any comments or just say we're good with this even like that's a comment just say this is done so it's finally locked down um I yeah this is done I can reach out to John make sure that he has an overview of it if there are any maps that he currently has done that he can add in there or you think is appropriate um I'll text Jesse get her eyes on it um I can work with Betty in to make sure that this is up I would say by the end of the year or the end of this like next November December this can be living on the website good great I think it's going to be useful me too yeah um but this draft has been shared with other committees comments yeah early on before this dra this draft just got to chrisy I think this is the one that we work on going forward so if we I don't know if we I mean in terms of area to add their SE cuz like they can write that whole section yeah like Mark and Bonnie can write the pollinator like it doesn't have to just come from the AC right right that's what yeah those are gaps I thought we' asked them to come in and give us that content early on a couple months ago I don't think so a no yeah work we'll send this to work off this one I think this should be the because there's so much updated stuff to the the Third Street Trail and the next legs and sections and what's been done and um J tree tree Orin I don't know so that will then live like that will we could pull into that yeah that could go into the OR itself so you want me to send it to basically all the Committees in Fair Haven to see if they have comments should they direct them to I definitely Natural Area definitely sh tree um Green Team Green Team yeah great Caroline said she would be happy to have with the Natural Area and she has maps and images yeah I'm not even sure everything that we have all our assets are in this document honestly right I mean because we have I mean even just the map of the natural are in the trails right yeah you know that's a yes um do we want or need Rack or planning or zone or any of those probably not they I don't know what I don't know we had originally asked everybody from the environmental Round Table to look at that you know yeah let's cover that base and then if we need additional input after that I think it could be like a living document that we can add to if we feel the need to figure out you know something we miss right there's no Nothing Stops us from continuing to do this just be Happ to it but I think that I'm comfortable with December this will be living on the webs yeah that's our our December meeting will be our big reveal on our F website all right sounds good off our agenda 17 what was it they're both fixed by December all right thanks guys for clicking on The Lion Share of this and know was time consuming um all right so I was gonna have I have on here um a tree ordinance update from Brian um it was shared with everyone right the context I'll share which is what's come from Brian is it's it's been it it like the ER has been around the block this one I would say more um I don't know that they so the last big step was the buau attorney was taking the next turn on create like writing the writing it the right way for an ordinance to be written um so that's where we're at it has everyone's input into it that's that's been sort of agreed upon negotiated debated so I don't don't think the shade tree commission is looking for wholesale changes or input but certainly if there are things that were missed or additional items you know they're they'll listen so that was kind of the context of sharing it again um was if anyone wanted to they could share a point of view or share feedback the only I noticed is they include the mpal in it yeah which is good so this way car Branch just can't cut down trees okay is I mean anyone feeling strongly about it do we need to open a conversation about it now or are you happy to just I'm I don't want to shove anyone else's you feeling good I feel fine okay I don't if you guys had a chance to L of it I don't understand but from what I did understand and you know seemed reasonable okay all right we'll move on um I was going to share an update on the mcarter pond committee um just to say just to kind of recap so we stood up a separate mayor stood up a separate committee to look at uh remediation steps for uh the pond we met for the first time Monday September 16th did some of the basic things you do we talked about purpose of the committee the Pond's value to the community um expectations for remediation root causes um really we focused on how to involve the community in this process and not just make it you know nine people you know working on it heads down um so well you looking at M Carter's Pond shouldn't you also be looking at um scher's Pond since it may Encompass the same kind of I I think we'll learn a lot from from what we do with marter but you don't want to become just a pond committee as to Pond triers is the one it that doesn't give us access Shi it's it's a valid point I bring it back to the committee because schwers people on River Road see it right away not necessarily think SP yeah but I think a lot of the issues are probably parallel to both locations yeah when you talk about sedimentation when you talk about umow the growth in there like I said there's a lot of things similar issu access to that is a little bit harder because of how it's that pond is situated however there was supposed to be a trail but around the west side of that pond well are you speaking about schanker Pond I can't hear anything over here but you speaking about schanker Pond I was giving an update about mcarter Pond committee and she asked about looking at schanker Pond yeah I live on it and I actually am here to talk about the but I'm pretty concerned you know about tankers because it's so beautiful and it's an exceptional Wetland according to the D and it's just going to growth I mean it's it's just so I'll come another time um but jean mcgonagal who wrote the Wetland regulations for the state of New Jersey was willing to come and look at it about three years ago and no one was interested the mayor wasn't interested at that time a different mayor but it's really a shame I mean you have black brown night herand you have bald eagles you have great egrets it's this incredible Wild refuge and there's so many people who come there every day it's just the values you know what's important um it's a beautiful Pond I just wanted to speak up because I live right on it no it's great so um like I said we are focused on mcarter the however please take back that there is interest in scher's bond and perhaps you should make it all encompassing since you're addressing one it may reflect on the other yeah or we might be looking for volunteers that want to look specifically at shrinker Bond that's another way of of of handling it two separate learning learning curves as opposed to one see that's why I think that they should be bundled at least maybe to assess them at the same time so you know from a budgeting standpoint or anything you could kind of say hey if we wanted to do one action how we spray it across or is that the most efficient action for for the all of the town's M Hy has been discussed at TR years at all um no um is it deeper than marter it is deeper than marter um and uh it hasn't been it was a private property longer than you know it was only been public property you know well I don't know how long but not nearly as long as marter and um there's been a we've talked in the EC about swanker spond and it's come up as um issues before not nearly to we haven't seen the complete transformation that we've seen in marara pond um which has kind of always been on our agenda because we've tried to and we've been actively pursuing that um as composed as compared to schwers which was not to say that I I do understand what you're saying for sure um we're trying to learn a lot about I mean obviously there's a lot about Pond ecology and what happens to ponds over time and how being um surrounded by the ponds by residential areas also by Street and Street runoff too um so we are learning and we there are plans hydr raking um with with the county as well too and perhaps that's something to look at with schwers too but I I we know more data about mcarter Pond what step is what it's the SP I got I spoke to son I got an Oprah of everything they did to to clean out their ponds and everything so I've got tons of information on shrinkers it's only about a foot deep now we were talking about that at the last marter Pond meeting where we were talking about PM free Pond specifically in rson and how they did a full cleanup of that and that did that was something that you know and by the porter right back in front of the school as well so um this Pond tankers is the only special Wetland okay and it's it's just shame yeah well both of them I would say the whole the situation with all of the water yeah the current status of the water life in Fair Haven is generally a shame um it's something priced out getting rid of everything and the hauler that rson used I do have a lot of information do you want to share that with us I mean to give it we were looking into getting in touch with rson to find out what they fire like that that' be great great great that's a great start good thank you um so what I wanted to share was on Wednesday the 23rd so October 23rd and you guys are all welcome it's a it's a public forum to talk about mcarter Pond um so it's to talk through and give the residents an opportunity to share um their perspectives the issues they've seen or the opportunities they're aware of and we get a chance to share uh what the burough has been doing and you know what we plan to do um going forward what time uh on the 23rd it would be at 7 here that's October 23rd October 23rd is 7 right here um this is where I wanted to bring up um the commission um about budget so we are sitting on about $3,500 of our operating budget for the year and that's a combined Green Team environmental Council budget um we I would like to set aside some of that money to use towards um consultants and professionals to help us revise uh one of the old reports so in 2017 the buau had commissioned uh a restoration report um from aaki and LSA and we'd like them to take that report from 2017 17 and Revis it what it gave us was several options for what to do um and some of those options May apply to schwers um looking at it from both lenses um but in what I want to make sure we do now is um as we're trying to forecast the spend of our budget for the rest of the year set aside some money so um if they do require some funds to make those updates you know we've got the the the ability to to pull the trigger right away so I'm asking you guys is if if you're on board with that we'll have a a vote today just to say we're willing to put aside $1,500 I support that decision what was the report I'm sorry what it was called the rest it has a long name but essentially it was a restoration options report what restoration of what of mcarter pond oh okay so it's Pond specific specific to that and they're the engineer right the engineers bring back valuable information the thing is if you don't spend the money by November you might lose it next year this year no this year coming if you don't use it you lose it you don't spend it and cber it you're going to lose it okay so I think it's a very good idea okay so all in favor all right thank you guys um and we'll we'll continue to have updates on the as the part the mcarter pond committee you know continues to meet uh we will meet like I said at the end of the month for hosting a public for any idea when they Consulting that's so part of this is um this body kind of agreeing to things like this and then I go back to Chris yor the administrator and we have a an active dialogue with the provider and try to figure out if we can get it timed great this you know these next three months cool all right um I was gonna add one more to hey Gary oh I had my hand up but my virtual hand um did you say AUM is that a yes yeah aan so they're on some kind of like a retainer I mean are they already working for the town somehow they they have provided yeah they they've provided several um assessments and reports related to the related to the pond right yeah I was just curious because I mean I I thought that they prepared the the bid documents for the uh Hydro raking yes they helped with that as well which as I understand it didn't work well I think that we're we're in a lawsuit with the sub right so they contracted it out well we contracted it to someone else not to that group not to that engineer and they were the ones who didn't know what to do so true they did essentially recommend three different options one of them being this group but but I thought that they then they tried it with somebody else didn't it didn't work twice sorry say that again Gary no I mean I I know they put it at to bid low bidder um and I think there were you know some kind of litigation with them um but then I thought they rebid it and then a new contractor came out and it didn't work again I no I don't that's not accurate but um yes it's it has been part of it has been hydro rate the first guy there in um right he didn't do anything they had somebody come and they did part of the high right so was it done twice no it was supposed to be done again and I believe it was supposed to be done this fall um cuz was done last fall or last winter right um and that's when all the tire tracks froze up and then we had to ask a bur to clean that up and then the second phase was supposed to be done however to my understanding is that I don't know and this is where we're not clear like what is going to happen with that phase two because what I heard is that the county is getting a Hydra rer and we are going to be the first ones or Pro you know proceed with that in the spring but I don't know what's going on with the yeah I don't want to get like too confused with different topics here I think we were talking specifically about using money for the next phase of of more of a study not an to take you know physical action Gary is your concern that if we is your concern using avakian is that what you're raising yes basically so they're like a my understanding is they prepare just like um other board you know like the planning board the zoning board they have professionals that prepare documents for them that's what does for us they prepare documents they prepare studies yeah I mean my concern is that the documents that they prepared were not you know accurate or you know maybe it wasn't the if if two different contractors use the same documents and it didn't work either time then but that that's what I don't know from that's what so I guess I'm seeing it as separate as you you hired someone to help you with the the business part of it like preparing the document and that that document is used to to for people to then bid on the work right right so the people that bid on the work and and we we had to choose the lowest cost provider to do the work the issue is with that person not with the company that provided the documentation that's my question I don't know if Gary just another thing Vin did this um study I don't know if you recall but it was back in 2017 I believe that actually highlighted the different C options to clean the pond and what cost it would be and kind of like you know from high medium low and their rate of Effectiveness and so since it's the pond is looks very different in many places from um that time period we thought perhaps them revising it you know they did a lot of that bulk already but just updating it with current numbers current um you know information but I I do you know understand but like from last month minutes and it says the pond was Hydra twice and it did not work right and so vac is the one who you paid to tell you that it would work noors and it didn't work that's my but there's um there's there was six or seven different options and not one of those options going to work solely at it right if you only use one option so there's a lot of different Hy raking is not going to fix the entire Pond completely right um and because of so much organic material and luck that's already built up I perhaps we need to also even think about dredging I don't know or hydr breaking and chem treatment and Iration and you know increase the water flow that's going through there there's a lot of other options I don't think we can look at it just solely what we've been kind of doing it like one taking one of those you know options that they're giving us recommendations it's going to make it work I think it has to be in tandem with another or a couple okay I mean I'm just saying that if we paid them to come up with a solution and it sounds like they didn't come up with a solution right is that is that correct are the only ones that do it you know I I no I I have to imagine not but this is like we Donna McCormack who used to work for do now works you know like somebody who's in that field that understands that business business and could perhaps provide um you know Alternatives and alternative methods of looking at it I mean again that that information is seven years old now um I know just from the meeting we had with friends of marara pond people were sharing resources of what ponds in Cape Cod did that was thinking outside the box and other stuff that they were doing and suctioning vegetation out so you're not disturbing the vegetation that's on the bottom and it's a different way of looking and you know so there's a lot of different methods or ways that you can approach should we consider getting another engineer's input I mean is that within our yeah so I mean nothing and maybe using the name was the problem the idea is we're looking for like a a quick not spending a lot of money but getting a lot an update on costs primarily right I don't think it's a an options right yeah the yeah you know take away a couple like bullheads add in some other newer technology that might be available today that wasn't readily a best practice 7 years ago um that's what we've asked for so I keep going back to the Rumson thing like we really should that's it can't be too far removed from their entire like what they were dealing with so I do think that to Gary's Point like we should take another option in for this as well like you know include both of them it is a good point to have them come back and potentially because started the study but why not use somebody who's actually executed it successfully yeah lot of grants available we just got into the grand don't Professional Service uh contracts have to go out to bid unnecessarily no if it's under a certain is a threshold whatever it is so that was my second question is would anybody do this for $1,500 I question we don't I mean that's the thing we don't have a ton of money so we're try I was just trying to get us if if you know this group was on board with it cool then we can go back to Chris he can negotiate with providers and say Hey you know we got this asset that we paid for once we don't want to do the whole work again you know can we update it cool all right good Gary yeah I'm good sure um I did want to add one more to the current business um and it's it's in relation to um using our budget as well for this end of the year so you remember back in July uh Mark Olen was here presented on behalf on behalf of Alex sanck um for the pollinator Garden extension yes um we agreed to do it on the Third Street Trail um the governing body agreed um now Alex is in the process of raising the money and buying materials and would like to do it you know in this next month or so um he's raised $650 towards his $1,500 goal um and so we'd like to chip in both the Green Team and environmental commission uh so there are some dollars left over from the Sustainable New Jersey Grant that's about $30 um we were going to then bring in some green team funds of $100 which would give him a total from us of like $130 um towards his project you know it's not a tremendous amount but it helps you know it helps um so I was going to bring that to this group for discussion and ultimately and for all I'm board with it a vote to support $282 going to Alex Aran in the pollinator Garden EXT project I'm in favor I'm in favor agreed okay um and just clarification does that $28 that has to be that's um to be utilized at Sone Farms is that correct do we know I mean I know it's remaining in in the Grant in the grant so was that you like was that part I think you can use it for any okay so it just wasn't for just for plants okay but we can use that for planting I guess you'd have to look at the gr see yeah what is left in your budget after you spend 1500 and 130 what are you going to use the rest of the money for between now and December just we got next next topic is coming up oh okay sorry it's okay no it's I said we get to it all throughout so yeah we can triple check what that okay and I'm happy to move from the event supplies like that $30 from there to the pollinator Garden because I don't think we need that much okay okay oh there's room for that30 great okay so that closes current business um new business we were going to tackle um from a couple months ago we brought back the the Normandy Waterfront Park restoration I just want to give everyone an update and Kelly please chime in um so Kelly Jesse and I that with Chris York and Nick in September um what we were trying to do is bring Chris up to speed on with he already was pretty pretty well read into the there's a Stevens Tech ALS report and a conceptual design that had been previously prepared you know a lot of you guys are are probably familiar with it um it was and it was a concept of turning that burrow property at the end of the Normandy into a living Shoreline not using a bulkhead not using you know things like that in order to reduce erosion um it seems like there's General alignment between the governing body the administration our organization St stakeholders that we've worked with um there is funding already earmarked so there's burrow funds set aside in about 50 6,000 there is 22,000 from funds set aside by the outworks for the project so that's a total of 78 just sitting there earmarked for the project that's kind of just sitting there waiting um so again what I'd like to do today is bring it to a formal kind of vote to bring it back to life you know I know it's not really ever been out of the perview I know it's always been an important topic but I think we now have um a br administrator that's keen on seeing it move forward um what we believe we need to do next is to go to take that design concept and revise the survey that was used because it's now 16 years old yeah seven six seven years old as well um we have a partner in in ALS to support you know design input helping us obtain grants identify grants obtain grants um so what I'd like to do is set aside $2,000 for of our operational budget to fund the survey and any other Professional Services we might need in the next couple months to restart this project this project is eight years old eight and a half years old yes and the problem is I mean the erosion that's going to happen just going to get worse and worse and worse yeah so um the survey obviously you know it's going to look different yeah you know that that Shoreline um and and this is you know connected to storm water and everything else but we just in order to even begin and connected to fairen 21 Fair Heaven road too and we you know obviously want to consider the Waterfront and living shorelines not just here but maybe perhaps use this as a way to as an educational tool as a awareness to people that are living on the on the river but um starting here and then definitely you you know having this inform the 21 fairen Road committee and other other Waterfront public and private properties and I know this group has talked about how do we handle this with 21 Fair Haven do we do it together do we and and I think there's a lot of value in US getting out in front this property and addressing the you know addressing the issues like the erosion the hillside the beach erosion the storm water from the street um not get too wrapped up in in you know piling on but like let's address that that kind of scope of work and I think there's a lot that will anyone looking at 21 Fair Haven Road will say okay cool that's how they did it there like what can we learn to that and and there's a lot of you know what we talked about too there's a lot of stakeholders there I mean you've got the yach club right there you got people that live right there you also have an access point for emergency services to get in and out of the river if they need to so um taking all that in mind and just approaching this you know how best we can support and stabilize that that Shoreline it is as it is now and the vegetation um but also um you know teach people about all alternatives to hard stabilization um and perhaps you know looking at those plans that that record did for us maybe a little differently instead of cutting off access to that road maybe putting ring Gardens along the side so you still have access in and out right you know it's not hard right and uh so that's why you know just to get started and even apply for Grants or to get alsa in helping uh we just definitely need a advisor great any other discussion questions comments those in favor yes I thank you all right so that's 201500 and 100 12 in in well the $28 isn't actually all right it's in the grant M that gives you so like 36 36 and change you know what you're doing something you're moving forward yes that's that's the bottom line been hopefully we can we still have enough time to do so thank you guys for that sitting through that part of it um the next topic is deer mitigation um so I know Susan youve joined us and are you I'm hi guys you how are you good um so Susan you've got material to present you have Mater you have a presentation I have a PowerPoint would you like to come up and and present it's already recorded oh so we just watch it yeah but I I I assume Meg is going to go first Oh either way sure Meg can go first and then I have a PowerPoint I think it's about 25 minutes okay is it so make anyway proceed and and then we'll okay I was thinking more like about five minutes of of presentation does that work for you uh yeah I mean I'll try to go as fast as possible so just so you know my um viewpoint on the deal can you just state your name and address hi I'm Meg Kelly I live at 98 Harvard Road um so I'm sorry just are you um just any like credentials or background this is I am not coming as an expert I'm coming as someone who has done some research and just wanted to okay share my opinions after talking with the council the uh Natural Area committee um and just hearing some of the feedback so I know you guys spoke um to New Jersey they came in and give you a presentation they're obviously backed by hunting Hunters you know and their main goal is to get it back into the suburb so I'm kind of here to try to give you a more well-rounded educated um topic of topics of discussion basically just so that hopefully we can come to you know more thoughtful and effective and and potentially compassionate um outcomes here so there's if we're going to control the population so from what I've heard and if you guys have any um other concerns besides deoration and vehicle collisions if you could just let me know any anyone limes disease anything just to yeah I mean obviously disease is a is a main problem with Lyme disease and also the was away disease okay so let me just um maybe touch on that just really briefly first so if you look at any of the health organizations there is no information and and they do not support killing deer there's no information to support doing that actually reduces lime dises if you look at the health recognization actual approach to it they say it's a targeted approach to your residents where you need to just educate them that tix or limes disease is not really spread within um a 24-hour period so obvious obviously do a check get it off you know Common Sense sort of things but if you're actually really concerned about the tick population killing deer isn't going to help if you think about the size of a deer and how many can ticks can actually live on that deer killing them it doesn't really help they just go to the next animal if it's they mammals or deer you know whatever the case may be so it doesn't lower the population of ticks the only thing that does is they have these four poster um devices basically think of like like uh rollers that you would paint your house with and the deer stick their head in they eat it actually puts like a chemical um a a tip repellent and and killer that goes on the deer spreads throughout their body and it does actually reduce the tip count a lot so hunting is not going to really do anything in that manner but there is an approach if that's a mean concern from the Natural Area and the C the council and mayor idea in here that is a mean thing so if we were going to spend our money in things I think that should maybe be secondary um for deer population so there's three approaches so the first is um imuno contraception which just to educate you there's two types of um prescriptions it's called PCP and gacon basically someone comes in they Dart the deer with these um prescriptions it works essentially like the pill um it's only the negative is it's only about 60 to let's say 85% % effective um the first year and then it kind of decreases year two or year three so you have to keep going back you know and doing this on on average a two-year basis and it gets expensive it's about $500 to $1,000 per um D A lot of times it's not actually approved in New Jersey because again they want to go about with these Huns in in the suburbs um a lot of times they just it's approved if it's done through the state wildlife you know programs but they sometimes they don't they want to go through hunting you know and whatever maybe just um pause for a second so I would say the this group has had a conversation we did recommend the governing body the hunt or um so if if I would say maybe kind of take your comments and maybe a little more streamlined so is there an alternative that you would like the town to consider yeah so that's one consideration the second one is um sterilization so there's an organization called White Buffalo which does it through multiple space um they're currently doing the closest one is in Stein Island um basically they come in they Dart the deer put them you know out they actually carry the deer to a certain um location that would be somewhere near the Natural Area they sterilize them bring them back to the wild so um it's estimated that after a 4year period it reduces the population by 45% talking to White Buffalo the cost would be probably about 900 to, 1500 per deer um so the positives about this is that you're not killing out the population instantaneously where other deer would just come in and kind of the Food Supplies there you know everything it would be a slower decline um but you wouldn't see this massive migration from one to the other especially if other towns aren't going through a hunt I thought that deer stay local they stay so that's actually not true for males uh do are usually within two to 300 acres usually not always but male deer can travel like 50 miles like it's it really spans um in order to do this you would have to get 80% of the population sterilized um you know but it's obviously like a more compassionate way to do it lowers the percentage as slower rate um s island is currently doing this they've seen um you know a lot of benefits including dearly uh collisions reduced by about 60% over a 7year period so are you suggesting sterilization of females or FES so s island just in case you're looking it up s island is doing males but males can only be done if you're on a like Island because otherwise other males will come in from other areas based on how far they travel if you do females because they stay in the local area you're not going to really get that migration from the other areas so it will lower the population you know over over the time period what did you say the cost was per per they think it's about 900 to, 1500 per deer per female de correct so if you want to go with that process they would have um FAA licensed Pilots actually fly drones in so we can get the correct population of uh deer in the area exactly because otherwise you know you're not seeing them all travel through backyards and everything overnight so it's like heat censored without C catching people dogs Etc and does that cost coming through it in I I think it's like part of it I think you need to have like the town has have a meeting with them to discuss their actual goals and everything and surveys that they want Etc and at what age do you um you start sterilizing I I think as soon as they see like a full grown dough like I I what age is that what age did the deer start I don't I don't know exactly I'm sure it's probably based on a certain size you have to um how do you know what when they um start to like breed other deer at what age well do it around six to eight months believe it or not and if the situation is right um a f a female Fawn can start breeding maybe even six months if they have enough food so they're Tagged so after it's done you'll see a tag on their ear and you'll know okay this fear was sterilized okay um do you want to go as well and then we can do questions afterwards frustrated because you're asking questions that I've answered in in the PowerPoint because as I understand it there's been quite an avalanche of material on the other side and there's been two presentations by the division of Fish and Wild Life and um I've been at this for 30 years and there's there's a lot that has to be answered and I tried to to put it together including a broader picture on when the towns are dealing they're wrestling with this issue the State Management in private land is actually managing for early succession which Farms deer and it Farms wood coock and quail and everything so the first part is about that a little bit the second part goes into sterilization but we OA the car accidents in Fair Haven compared to other towns they're extraordinarily low and what happens when you initiate a hunt is that it goes higher and that happened in Saddle River and everywhere else you you put a Cascade of of effects into when you have these hunts and you end up having annual hunts um I sent uh to Tony De ni Cola who is White Buffalo and he's in the New York Times The Washington Post and he Google mapped the area the Natural Area in the sanctuary he said it's going to do nothing a Hunt's going to do nothing in there because Fair Haven is so built out what Tony would do if you're overpopulated um and that hasn't been proved you you have certain benchmarks in Wildlife Management one is evidence another is independent review another is ethics and bow hunting is the least ethical form of hunting um they're razor blades I I wrote one with me today um but I really want you to watch the PowerPoint because it takes you through the process process that takes you through the 100 complaints that Saddle River got uh about deer dying on their you know in their front yard um about men in tree stands where they shouldn't be about bringing people from out of town in scoping out whether your home or not or or or all of these things but beyond that um it doesn't do anything you you have controlled hunts in New Jersey that have gone for 40 years and it's it's all based on do something you know we've got to do something and we're saying make sure you're doing the right thing you know take your foot off the gas you you've had an avalanche of material from the other side um you have people we we have uh Dr Merritt from Mount hoolio who does state-of-the-art deer surveys and what we're saying is get a deer survey in because when you're hearing these numbers 1 to three deer per square mile five deer per square mile 10 aitz of Yale he's the oser professor of population says it's completely wrong it misrepresents scientific studies that were done on logged land clear-cut land so Fair Haven isn't clearcut um I spoke to and someone from here should Peter Reed up at Westport Connecticut Westport has not had hunting since 199 and he was telling me they had a major push like what we're seeing here for dear money seven years ago and I said what' you do because you have agitate you have people who want it they're invested in it is a really nice guy he said we just explained to them this is the way we are and this is what we do and they've had uh it's kind of amazing they have hunting around them but they have a a pretty stable population of 30 deer per square mile and um that's I think you've got something like that here because it's it's a complicated issue you have deer families and you have so many people in Fair Haven who love them where I live you've got at least four people who are taking down fences for deer the deer sleep in their backyard and um they're not in adate objects they have behavior and part of that behavior part part of the stability is the older bucks prevent the young younger bucks from breeding and somebody's popping off all the older bucks because you you see them once they get a decent rack they disappear so you lose that ability to stop the younger bucks from breeding so A Buck in my neighborhood is breed already and I think he's about eight months old so you don't get that and the second thing is deer live in pods and they're matriarchal so you have one pod and it overlaps the other and I see that and they prevent other deer from coming in and when you have like in Thompson Park I once saw 30 deer going down Newman Springs Road right into red B and probably fairen eventually um so you know you you have to look at the whole picture and um there are different forms of fertility control and I've heard people involved with this say it doesn't work it's ineffective um I've been watching it since it started you had phases and part parts didn't work work or you needed to give two shots and it was really difficult getting the second shot gon in contraceptive was the best um the steril sterilization is 100% it's 100% effective and the difference is you know contraceptives can be reversed so you won't lose the deer and sterilization is permanent and it can be highly effective uh in California it was almost too effective and San Jose wanted to reverse it it's worked in Virginia it's worked in Ohio um it's worked in Staten Island which is very expensive because it's 60 square miles that's a lot of deer so there's a lot of information you've been told that there's a total other side on what I'm saying is get Tony DEA in here is world famous look him up Washington Post so can I ask since you brought him up so I I I've tried to read as much as you guys have sent me uh I watched his video um and I guess my my question is Connecticut you brought up Staten Island California Virginia Maryland so how do you so I guess my question is is it legal to sterilize in New Jersey it is legal it's there's a community- based management law that that and and the division ofish and Wildlife is doing it its Dam it hasn't approved any since princip back in no um for sterilization too excuse me Princeton's going to hear back in November on their sterilization as I sent you that that news article um Trisha Cecil Princeton's attorney is trying she's been trying for three years and we were on a phone call with some St senators from that area and um last year and it really surprised me because one of the men on the phone call lived in one of the neighborhoods they wanted to do it about six neighborhoods and he said you know where is that because when you did that back in 2003 or whatever it worked it sterilization works and the benefit is and so I'm I'm not debating the I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not debating the the efficacy of sterilization I'm I'm trying to say if we were to take action what is the action we would take if the state is not approving it well I think that that we have spoken to other towns that are getting in League with Princeton and I I I kind of think I'm surprised the state hasn't responded to Princeton because that's kind of the gold standard in terms of of all of that and I I think that if I know ocean wanted to band together with them and I think that an effort has to be made to put pressure on this agency to allow it because what all these other states are allowing it Maryland actually validated it as a legitimate Wildlife Management tool so um and Tony knows that and so it's you've got to press the agency and you know they had that pami law or rule about 2,000 square feet that wasn't ever a rule it it was just out of thin air and uh so you have to watch this agency but you also have to pressure it but you also everyone de no I get that and I think just to your point about the 2000 foot rule did you guys that so this my PowerPoint I have a letter from Sean marii um of division of Regulatory Affairs for the DP saying it doesn't exist in the statute it doesn't exist in the regulations so that's out of the picture and also they use air compression now which also just would bring it out of the picture anyway now how they would go about darting yeah and we got gacon approved in New Jersey it's registered our organization lobed to do that 10 years ago and so I I think it's a matter of getting someone in uh we can suggest Thomas Mallette of Mount hoo because he's he's not partisan and he's kind of the best and he can do a dear survey I would recommend going with a community college in New Jersey which has a side in it they have Dr mlet reviews what they do and and he has cut in half what the population is there's ways you can duplicate if you see a group of deer and this involves Thermo you know temperatures and everything else but I I just hope you can you know stop the you know momentum because I know the way these things were and they get somebody in a corner and I've been you know that you start out with the assump that that you you need to remove deer and that's a pretty big assumption and as Westport kind of proves um people don't want to hear it but part of what Westport does is they deal with these complaints on an individual basis and the Humane Society of the United States recommends that that you I would volunteer for it you have a core of knowledgeable people in the town so if you get a call that you know there's a there's a buck in my tomato patch you know I can toodle over and say well you can get cheap fencing or but everybody who Gardens knows now when you go to a garden center everything's labeled you know deer resistant or whatever but I think we could probably learn from Westport because I think we're a lot like Westport Westport has a lot more homes with larger lots and more wooded I mean it's not nearly as compact as we are and so I I tend to disagree to that point um and also like that are pretty much like us Westport Connecticut my party Westport Connecticut nowhere else yeah I mean but that's what you're saying so I'm I I also think you know we have to think about like population ecology and population Dynamics here right I mean there deer have no predators and there's always predators and prey and the dynamic relationship always is what keeps everything in balance and just since I've been here in the past seven eight years I mean you have deer walking down Third Street which I'm where I live which is very Compact and very very Suburban and walking while the kids are riding their bikes and so they don't even budge they don't even move and so I tend to think that it the problem has gotten bigger I don't think that the majority of the people in this town say we don't have a deer population I to differ and then you have deer resistant plants but they still get munched they're eating there's no such thing as deer I just want to say though just talking about the areas around here and how compact we are you know there is something to say about a hunt if you look at other hunt I'm not saying a hunt but I'm just saying there's clearly a dear issue in here and I think that it needs to be you know managed in some wayar regardless if you agree or not from everyone I've heard the majority think there is some sort of a deer problem so okay what's the next step right that's what we have to look at I think we also need to look at there are a lot of kids in this area there are like a lot of families when you go in with the hunt that you guys suggested with a bow and arrow hunt because it's cheaper right that's what New Jersey suggested to you guys a lot of times these people come in these are not professional Shooters right they're going to hit the deer and a lot of times these deer they take 8 hours 24 hours and they run after being shot to death only like professional Sharpshooter who do a brain shot basically kill the deer instantaneous ly so a lot of other towns are seeing that these Deer Run and they're running into our backyards and everything where children are and they you know look I don't I live right across from the bird sanctuary I don't want my kids seeing like a deer dying right in front of our lawn and yeah they say oh well you know Hunters won't come onto your property without permission agreed however if you have a dying gear what what do you what's your choice here there is no choice right like you have to allow them to come on your property so I think like the method that you guys suggested is also like the method that would cause these deer the most suffering which I like cannot agree with right like you're environmental but Wildlife is also part of the environment right allowing animals to separate I don't think really should be but I I had four three years ago during Co I had a deer that was dying in my backyard from wither and Away disease away disease I called up a deer company and I have four young kids and this was during Co and that's where we spent all our days in our backyard and they said there's so much deer impacted by this disease right now I'll be to your house in a week one week so I'm talking about my kids saw this dead carcass yeah and with I'm just saying you know like but the more population that you have easier threat of diseases and other things like that and so I'm sorry sorry I I'm just could you come sit up here please might be easier for all of us to I just think like no one wants to see that and again I'm arguing with you about the tier population right I'm arguing that you guys are choosing a bow and arrow your recommendation was bow and arrow like these Deer Run they die and they saer for hours and hours and hours I don't think anybody in this town wants Hunters out there with rifles how do you know they're like qualifi that and of course and so the D don't you have to be the D said that they do a strict and there's a a stct I would for this conversation for the sake of argument let's just say they're not I think the point she's they're not professional sharp what the point you're making is of all of of the list of choices agreed it is feel like it is the most brutal exactly sophisticated for and I I think a lot of times like you are talking to people that there is a dear problem but you're not telling them what possible alternatives are and and if you really talk to a lot of people and say hey here are these three Alternatives should you go for the most suffering or the least suffering I I am hard pressed to find that people would say yeah let's make animals suffer when they don't right that's what I'm talking about and I do think that we should talk to organizations that do like white buffalo this I'm not talking to paa right when we talk to White Buffalo they do Sharp Shooting they do sterilization right I think they would be able to give you an accurate idea of the effectiveness the one thing that I will also tell you just for your own Knowledge from White Buffalo who does this is they said you don't understand when you bring a hunt in how much personal like you know education you need to tell these people and what the Uproar is when they hear this happening without having some background knowledge on why you made your choice so again not going to disagree with you about the deer population but I really do think that you should look at alternative options and and here an hour or two is worth whatever you heard on New Jersey right like really getting expert into to do that that's what I would suggest yeah what I could say um I I've heard some things here that um are are not true in the field which is that deer are ultimately self-regulating and I I I just can't let that go by um I and it depends on the amount of food and cover Predators Never Killed the amount of deer that Hunters killed John Steinbeck called the first day of huntings the SE I don't think anyone I think we're just saying because there's no natural Predators out here that they popul Geon no no that argument doesn't you know if if you want to have asmz ofel come in and discuss that with you maybe we should because um it doesn't depend just on Predators there's no way the Predators kill the amount of deer that men are killing today I mean you kill thousands of deers on the first day of hunting season but what we're that's not it what we're talking about is what are we going to do because a lot of the precepts of wildlife management none of which Fair Hat Haven is meant is independent review ethics suffering um and evidence and you need evidence that you have such an overpopulation of deer because frequently what happens is that they're very visible they're not like Chipmunks you if you have a deer in your backyard you know it and you have a lot of people at least where I live who really like the deer um and you have people in Westport who really like the Deer uh but in any event I think you need to get in somebody like Tony DEA Cola because I asked him he said can you do this he's the head of white buffalo and he said it's not you're not going to do anything if you do it in the Natural Area because you're too built out all around ity likes that when you talk to him one of his points was looking at the road Network yes did he did you did did he assess our road Network to say it was a good fit for what he wants like what he liked in Ocean is that you had Joe play a part and then Joe play Park was totally surrounded by homes he loves that because the deer used to people you once you have a hunt it makes it that much harder to do the darting because they're very wey so what he could do in Fair Haven because they drive around at 3:00 or 4 at night and the deer are sleeping in people's backyards they're weary and everything you can put out corn or whatever and he'll Dart them and then they have like a mash unit and they can actually spay a deer in six minutes I mean that's what it is you you've got and just like more just on that road Network just so you have like full understanding on what he's talking about he's talking about like like forested area I actually asked them this question myself they're talking about like forested areas where you cannot it's like miles and miles that you don't have anything from the middle of that Forest to anywhere that you can create a garage or some sort of you know sterilized area to um I'm just I'm referring to the video he compared Fairfax City to two other locations talked about the RO networks there's no issue because sits on the my understanding is he sits in in on the street and waits for them to be out in the street he does in Princeton when he sharp shoots and they go around at three or four there's no difference if if you're D he's not Street he's not in the street it's just accessing no he is in the street yes he is in the street um let me just say something and so when he goes to Princeton he drives around at 3 or 4 in the morning and they sharp shoot or they D or whatever and he can do it in the Princeton neighborhoods which are pretty close together and they're pretty much like ours so he probably could do it here I'm not sure I can't speak for him I think he's got to come here and I think he's got to look at it I wasn't sure what like what level of conversation you had to I wasn't sure if You' had that level of conversation with him already no what I did to him was I sent him the Natural Area he he has all these things he he Google mapped it and then he he went out and he and he saw all the homes and everything else and he said you're not going to accomplish anything and secondly what I I really wish you would watch the PowerPoint because you have to ask some questions when you look at the car accidents they're they're so low and I'm not minimizing them but they're they're very very low but they're all UNR almost uh all of them and what you do when you have a Humane non-lethal program is you you look at the hotpots and you have these maps that you put over and you say why are you having these accidents on rid and then as I understand it people are hunting bow hunting deer in Fair Haven um the minutes in the in the 2023 said that someone had taken out 206th year and I'd like to find out um where are there any tree stands and when is that Hunter active because you have Sun accidents um that are three days in a row and you kind of look at these things and you piece together like you know what's going on um who's feeding why are they crossing the street but in terms I think this was justified in in terms of car accidents and they're very low I I would say and I I can't speak for everybody but I know the information that's been funnel to me is the biggest concern especially in the Natural Area is the the the degradation or the the deforestation yeah and I I asked Oz Schmid ofel if he could come down and look at it because he looked at South Mountain reservation where they were complaining about the deer and he brought his students because it's part of it and they they bent down and they got a handful of coffee grounds the soil was like coffee grounds and it was a jumping or and um I don't know what you have in the Natural Area I know it's becoming a wetland but I am interested in if you've got deer in there I'm interested in where the the hunting is on the private property because you can you know maybe the deer are finding that a safe place if if you're not allowed to hunt on public property in Fair Haven then maybe I don't think you're allowed you're not allowed to hunt any property in Rumson you're allowed to because the lots are larger and and in your larger yeah in your May 2023 minutes I think it was Brian Rice said that someone he didn't identify them had taken out 26 Deer in Fair Haven so I'm sure it was a BRI anecdote I can't imagine I don't I don't know so I you know I think that catches all of us by surprise what you need to do is is find out but um what I include in the power point and we're going to send it out tomorrow is the actual complaints there are hundred in Saddle River from people who were very upset from either having hunters in their backyard or having uh a dough that they knew uh die right in front of them um and I think these things when you're talking about the the four steps that have been identified by scientists uh the ethics the evidence uh the independent review uh that should be underlined and um I you know I see there's a preconceived like Lyme disease was a huge deal and then you mentioned that even um Dr Krueger from the CDC said the presence of a lot of deer may actually be good because they're not really a vector of lime disease it's a white- footed Mouse and that depends on acorn on the mass prop that you get and that's been in the New York Times And The Washington Post so there's a lot of exonerating information and and I think it's an ethical issue about I I agree with with May um it's how we do it and I think there are more sources that we should be talking to I think we should talk to Westport uh I had mentioned to uh Brian Reed who is the Peter Reed who is the Animal control officer that they had more land and he said no we're pretty densely populated in areas um the ones I'm familiar with are pretty dense um and so Su I think you're Absolut I'll concede you're absolutely right that we have an opportunity to learn a lot more about other options conceded that right away I think where I'm stuck and I'll even say further an independent review and getting evidence about our deer population makes a whole lot of sense and I don't know I can't again I can't speak for the mayor but I would imagine that that was implicit in making any decision going forward is having some sort of survey if it's not I will certainly bring it up and and can we say also by a non-biased party not by state of Jersey by one that is both sterilization and SHP shooting totally totally open to that indep an independent you know assessment I'm get to you second well all I want to say Susan is what I'm stuck on is even if we all agreed that sterilization was the answer I I still haven't heard how we move forward in what what so how would we move forward if if we all agreed there is a problem and we wanted to do sterilization you have to put your plan forward through New Jersey and the more towns that put through sterilization there they still haven't said no yet to Princeton the more towns that go through and say this is what we want the more probable it's going to yeah you know you know have a question Princeton we got the state senator involved we got the state senator for who represents Princeton involved and um so he was he was putting pressure on La tette and so what you do is you kind of get your state senator maybe maybe a federal it's everything's political isn't it and so in the end if you've got an agency that's dragging its heels um you try to put pressure on the state senator uh maybe go to we can go to Murphy's office again um we were dealing with Governor Murphy's office on on the bear Hound for quite a long time can I oh goad where dides this money come from I beg your pardon where's this money going to come from yes sterilization well that's a good question I mean we're paying like $500,000 right now to pave the Fisk parking lot you know what I mean like there has to be some thought well that's that is my question is what where is this coming from because we went from recycling once a week to every other week because of the budget cap so now there's all these financial implications so I'm just saying well there are grants in in human main world you have my question was is does it cost anything to get Tony down here like what is this to come over and do a survey for it like what is The Upfront cost of having him come speak and survey and just get that so we it's part of um in the PowerPoint uh you you do have um someone saying that when it comes to Wildlife no one wants to do anything it's like well buy dear dear a lot of people think they shouldn't do a damn thing and and and that just get rid of them and you got to do something and what other towns have done it's been mainly you you have many other areas that have done this it's not like it's not doable um you have Clifton Ohio where they raise the money for it and they got it down to what generally happens is you start out you need Tony the first couple of years because he has like a mass unit he's got a veterinarian he's got highly trained people you save money I spoke to a hunter I know um who's really nice guy and I said would you be willing if Tony came in to cut cross would you be willing to Dart because you need the process is you've got to Dart the deer and you you Tran them and then you have to follow them and then you put them on a stretcher and you bring them in and this guy it was great he he said oh yeah because he doesn't think there should be bow hunting and fairy I just don't understand and I'm do we have a problem or do we not have a problem because how did we get to right here at this was before my time I wasn't like I wasn't aware that there was a massive deer problem it's from the two of you guys it sounds like there isn't but there also is like I understand there's a deforestation problem in the bird sanctuary I see it in the Third Street Trail I see it in there are ways that we can mitigate deer eating we fence new saplings there are some but do we have a huge deer problem that we need to either kill or sterilize or can we just can we just go back to to where how do we get to this so if you look back that's the premise yeah why are we killing de because we have we have so we have input that says we have a certain number of deer per so how we got here is if you look about a year and a half ago into your minutes one of the people who were now taken off the committee brought up that we have a issue here with deer and we need to do something about it then he contacted the state what what's his name Brian is that right what's his name Brian Brian R thank you so he was T he went to New Jersey who is the hunting committee which he's he's a hunter Bri's a hunter as well brought them into now look talk to these three people here they would agree with you looking at it I we haven't had a study you know but that that's kind of that's kind of how it started and I think a lot of people will agree that there might be it because of deforestation there's been like no vehicle collisions basically and Doran Hunt's actually vehicle collisions I heard I know that so is it just really the deforestation I mean I know I'm not saying just really but like I I don't the prise counts be like okay so Bas for the force what do you mean yeah I'm saying is we have a problem but do we have a problem well we that's why you need somebody to count the right I mean it's like so so so what we have done is is we' Ed DPW was a DP are you going to watch my PowerPoint like when I got it we didn't even get it until you walked in Sugg that youy understand 25 minutes I hav yet I understand that but I I think I'm just I just feel like we don't have the full picture I mean that's what part of is that's all we're doing I understand that fish in Wild is there's a conflict of interest as wide as a barn door understood your everything about them and what I have in the PowerPoint is what they've been up to and they illegally clearcut 21 Acres of wetland for the Woodcock a game bird um there's all sorts of things that are going on with with the division of Fish and Wildlife look they it's their job I can't blame them but they're their main mission is to provide hunt opportunities and they're working with the National Shooting Sports Foundation uh to go into towns to bring what they say closer to population centers because New Jersey the number of hunters is half the number of deer in New Jersey is way down and part of that is that the number of hunters is weigh down and this is counterintuitive but you when you when you go to Wildlife Management school or take courses what they teach you is there's a certain level of deer that you kill to keep the deer in the fast growth base of of their reproductive cycle they have they have reproductive Cycles it's it's a pyramid and the more crowded they get which you don't want the the less they breed and it's there's um if you kill a lot of deer there's better neonatal Health uh they'll get pregnant earlier because they have better food so what I'm trying to do is just put a dimension on this that these are animals with a social structure the adults uh keep the the Young from breeding and you have like a St a degree of stability in my perfect world you know we'd get the money and we'd sterilize them just to stop this just you know to stop this and its tra um and when you're talking about money other places have gotten it mainly through grants okay and we could do our organization we can raise a lot of money but we can do a go fund me we can do any number of things but first you are putting the cart before you need to know um we need to be honest we need to know whether it's feasible here right we need to know how many know and we don't know how many deer we really have so I just think that we need to um hear from people who really I'm not aidz of Yale uh you know I'm not Dr M I've been around them and I have a pretty good idea that Tony's going to like what he sees here but I I'm not positive um and then then you you put one thing first can you do it and then if you can do it okay how are we going to get the money and that's and and if you want sterilization you've got to politicize it and bring in political people and we thought we had it in Princeton because you know we did have you know the state senator uh we had a congressman we had and they were they were all pressing and Murphy should be he lives right here I mean he he should be somewhat amenable to doing this and and then so let's find out if we can do it first can you give us the opportunity to review the PowerPoint I would really like the time to I don't we just didn't see it night's Mee myself so um usually someone does it so so if we could just take that and and and go come back yes that's totally fine yeah can we get it emailed discuss it next month after we've seen it yeah digested it and questions understanding everybody on board and it's getting late did you see Tony's email uh webinar the 15 minute one yeah I watched that that he kind of gave rundown and that's where that's where my questions are coming from so my main question how do we do it in New Jersey and then did you see his longer one yes I watched that one too it that's it so and and like I said your credentials your background you're absolutely the right person to come speak to us about this I appreciate everything you've said tonight I appreciate you trying to educate us on it uh like I said I'm a little bit stuck because in a in a town a small town of of all volunteers um to pick up a project like this that is you know now we've gota you know it follows volunteer for it you know what I mean and I think I mean even like but but you know just just let me finish what I was going to say is just the the I'm not saying that I'm an advocate for the hunt right I'm just saying that in either way we go it's work that needs to be done and and if you're telling me that the state doesn't support it already I don't know that I'm going to be someone that that raise my hand to do that type of work without some sort of clear path of how it gets approved if we've done all the right things would you be willing to to work with trishka uh Cecil of Princeton I wouldn't be willing until I see the PowerPoint because you're asking me too many questions with and I don't have the knowledge really I mean you're this is like all new to me and you're throwing this out it's like give give us some time to give me time to research it yes that's you seen Tony I haven't seen anything other than the agenda for tonight and it's like we're not new truly to this other side I mean we've heard a lot about one side and it's I I have to agree like you know what you're talking about so there's value there but we're we're on our I'm on my heels right now I really oh my goodness was not could we get Tony 15 minute webinar to everyone I think I sent it with the it is it's out there so all the pread the link on the bottom okay we'll get yeah and then I sent a longer one also where he explains that bow hunting never works I want to say this is on the reford Tony won't mind he it he kills more animals believe me than then he does this and when he says sterilization is the way to go what he's saying is um what the ultimate is what we all want is a onot dart that Hunters can go out because and instead of killing they Dart them and that's what he's trying to prove with the sterilization that if you are able to do that you've got it lit you sterilization does it and like like I said in his video he also says you cannot do it in New Jersey it is not legal in New Jersey oh he said that before and he said no one has done anything and that's when I wrote to Regulatory Affairs and they said no there's no such regulation as the 2,000 ft so that was swept out of the way and then and then we had the call with um Princeton with I keep forgetting his name it starts with is the senator from from who state senator who represents Princeton okay and and trishka and a couple of count including the one councilman who wanted the non-lethal so and I sent you the news article where Trisha is Princeton is saying we've been trying to get this for three years and and they show the map of the neighborhoods that are just like Fair Haven that they want to do it in and and then once you do it what what Clifton Ohio did is you have to start out with Tony's crew because they're so good and then he trains volunteers and what we could get here is we could get five or six Hunters who could do the darting so you're saving a lot of money right there if they're good shot and and then but you start out and it's expensive iive and then you you get less fewer and fewer animals so you know Clifton Ohio I think they did four deer last year so it goes down to reverse okay so I'm I think that was a good discussion I I appreciate you guys both coming in and sharing and putting together the PowerPoint that we will make sure everyone has a chance to view after this closes tonight um and I and I don't I'm not shutting the door on conversation don't I'm just trying to end the meeting tonight and then if if if we believe it's necessary for us to have another conversation with the public forum you know this will actually absolutely be the the way we do it yes and I can just recommend Dr Thomas mlet of Mount hoolo okay for a survey um and um if we can we can get a schmidtz down here I've asked him once uh to bring his students and to take a look at the Natural Area and see what the damage is because generally what Oz will say is that when you have a canopy Forest you have oh the sunlight doesn't reach the floor you have different vegetation down on the bottom um and you have to see the extent of I was in there and I saw some brows lines and I used to walk there all the time and I stopped because I was sinking what would just be really beneficial for me too is if you guys review it and you have like questions if you could let us know it so like cuz sometimes you don't have the answers right off there studies that we could provide or whatever so that would be beneficial to before next meeting have you guys um met with a natural area advisor I actually have and for example like B we know is a massive tree person she even asked a question like okay if I am for a hunt and you know is there a way not to go about shooting them can you you know give them are to put them down for the moment and then and and you can I and again not that I'm supporting that but that was a question that I didn't know and I wanted to go back and give you the information and because there are a lot of alternative ways that unless we have discussions no one's going to really know the answers to so I really I and and just to you know put it to the narol committee too these people work really hard I was very impressed to listen to what these people do and how much they care and and something that it is really important though it really is important these people are doing a lot of work and if we come to to the understanding that there is a problem with these deer like we can reduce the population by 45% we spend so much money doing this and this and this but if it is a problem with a deer de doing deforestation which again I think we need a study to see let's help these people do their job and put our money to work so you know it it's actually being effective so that's and I'll leave at that because I know it's late for you guys and you know you I would like to find out being to know that because that running into roads and everything else um I don't see anyone on the phone there are okay so now is we have an opportunity for public comment anyone in the Bonnie or Susan do you guys want to have any comment um present topic or any topic okay um well I since you're leaving what is your name people my name is Russell Russell and you live oners I live on I live on ch right on and did you sign out a letter or something I kind of feel like I read something that you wrote you wrote the article two okay that's okay so and now PowerPoint because I don't think the Natural Area this PowerPoint that you're discussing I think it would be great to share I think right um we have had several people from the park services um from R from um some treatment that we've been doing in areas say that we have a definite deer problem we have no under bird sanctuary there's not you know there's nothing BR there's no understory there's nothing um and if you see every time I'm in there there's a pack of deer in there every time I'm on Third Street Trail working the deer are running past me staring at me I mean they're they're all over I feel like um um I I would be curious you know I've heard that we have about 200 deer in this town from that's a couple different they said like we should have from who this is from this this Bel Dage tree from the park service just based on the fact we have no the Park Service no M Park Service yeah well you know they contribute to it because part of the when when you see the um uh PowerPoint I I start out purposely with a broader picture of how deer are being managed in New Jersey how habitat is being managed in New Jersey it's called early succession and like Thompson park has a lot of Open Fields and when you have Edge in your forest and everything it's kind of like farming deer um I'm not saying there's no damage you know I said I was in there and I saw brows but I'm also saying we have the same thing kind of I grew up in Short Hills and I used to camp out in South Mountain and I remember they had all those de they have them in a in a pen then they opened it up and released it and but s was saying all of the the same kind of thing and some was Wong reservation and Wong reservation has been slaughtering deer for I think 35 to 40 years and and the forest is still a mess it's still in really bad shape so imagine I don't know it's a lot of different things it's it's a port of New York you know coming over but um I also when I'm saying I want to find out where they Hing deer in Fair Haven I want to find out never heard that I know but we will we'll try to find the answer none of us think that actually happens um it used to be 400 you had to be 400 feet from an O dwelling and that that still applies to guns but they reduced it to 150 ft for both so I kind of thought that was like statewise why was that in your minute oh we'll find out I don't know the answer because it is legal to hunt in Fair Haven if the lot is a certain size but there's very few you can probably count on your hand where the lot is that size so I don't think you know I'm just wondering why the deer you know are clustered in there because I don't know I mean I'd also be curious and I'll close it but I know we'll move on but well think we all benefit from seeing this perspective I mean obviously I don't know how many deer you need to sterilize because it's expensive so $1,000 a deer um so do you do 20 and um and and again the whole fact that what do you want us to do until it gets approved by the state are you asking us to join this cause to get it past is that what you're really trying to campaign for us to be added on to here in November what they officially like qucon JY submitted everything so November they hear that will give us at least a starting point anything to know is it approved or is it something that on behalf of a whole lot of other towns in the state half of prin but other people I from what I've heard are submitting paperwork as well well I nobody wants to kill an animal I mean you know I mean unless that's yeah but that's what started this whole thing started with it ccum and I I've old enough that I've been I've seen it since the get-go it started with getting into the suburbs and then first it was lme disease and then when you discredit that then it go to car accidents and then it went to Forest Health and so what we're saying is is isn't that a nursery it wasn't wasn't the Natural Area a nursery yeah and so I I I don't is it natural it's well now it is yeah it is but you you didn't you have a meow in there that you you cut yeah that's how you manage for deer that's if you look at any kind of if you go home and Google managing habit C for deer you're going to see uh or Le you're going to see taking going to a woodland or going to a forest and cutting a tract in it and putting in a food plot so that's basically what you're doing when when you're keeping that meow um in instead of letting it grow back you know reforest that's how you manage for jeury you have the edge you have the forest for the cover and then they eat the Brows in in the meow and that's just where they say pardon that's where you want them to say is that what you're saying you want them to say no but I'm saying that um New Jersey is doing it's completely incoherent the the management of habitat they are managing mainly for small game because small game hunners are ducks and they spend more so what they're doing is they're managing to early succession in a lot of private preserves and then on public Wildlife Management are if you go into a wild Management Area you're going to see clearcuts you're going to see round ones and you're going to see oo ones and that's what they do so that they can have game species approximate to a forest well early Su discuss question for the commission for us you have a question for us um um I just would I just want to come on the ER I think it's it's great but what I'm just curious so you took Jesse's document you put the like you try to put relevant th issues first and then the body of like the you know New Jersey and all the soil and all the all that other is still in there somewhere yes it's all in there okay but yeah I think the Natural Area you know send it out can can we get that we will send it out to Natural Area shet tree Green Team okay yeah at least those committees have your input I do want to say before the not well something that we talked about last year and it's already snuck up on us in terms of the living Shoreline as well the Christmas tree initiative of Ling that you should have that conversation talk about that and yeah start to talk about it and push it out you know we'll be at November so there's anything that we can do to drum up support all right Susan any questions or comments um oh B one question on the spending the money so you're giving the um EOS Scout project 130 does that mean I have to get po you go through this whole thing I have to get from for1 for $100 worth of plants then bring it in get it approved right I don't know what you're planning to spend it on but or L's fening we got the soil donated generously by Riser okay so maybe just spend the money you need to follow you can call me tomorrow sorry okay I'm sorry finish I know sorry thanks Stephanie um Susan any comment questions okay um people online Stephanie all right Stephanie hi it's Stephanie Adams on Zoom hi we can hear you um Anna actually beat me to the punch so my first comment question was about um are we doing any kind of Christmas tree initiative um in the short term to try to um Shore up the uh the banks at at dormandy so I'm glad to hear that um you guys are going to start talking about that because I think it'd be a worthwhile project um and then I also just wanted to make one more comment I don't want to talk about the deer and I personally don't really love the idea of the hunt um but I just wanted to make one more point that it didn't come up but I remember hearing this from some of the conversations that we had you know on walks with the folks from Mammoth County Parks is you know another issue with the deer is that you know it's not just the deer wasting disease for the deer but it's also their wild animals and we're not meant to live in such Close Quarters with wild animals you run the risk right of these zoonotic diseases and not this is an absolute worst case scenario but that is sort of an additional risk right where we're just not meant to be living that closely with wild animals and so that's another risk whether it's you know hopefully it wouldn't be like a wasting but it's just not we're not meant to be living that closely with wild animals um so I just wanted to bring that up um yeah so good luck with that it's a it's a it's a complicated situation and um I hope we can figure it out thank you thanks thanks Stephanie anyes IP remember potentially he actually said to that point that there's more deer like ever um now because they need that environment um they actually thrive in environments that are like a little bit more open towards communities so I'm not sure how accurate that is but I think that's something like we should back and talk to other people because I think that's how a lot of your survive actually in close proximity I'm Notting anything I just want you have a lot of people feeding beer in any other posing comments all right guys thank you um our guests Meg and Susan apprciate you guys coming out and sharing topic you're very passionate about I appreciate it um we will continue the conversation okay um you guys thank you for getting through a very big agenda this month um there's a lot of preadsorption motion to thank you