##VIDEO ID:nu13BYLiXwg## 100% right what's that 100% of the people aren't going to agree 100% of the time and you know ready to go this is the Fair Haven shade tree commission meeting of August 7th 2004 start up with Sunshine Law notice this is the regular meeting of the shade tree Commission of the buau of Fair Haven in accordance with it provisions of the open public meeting ACT public meetings may be held in person or by means of communication equipment to include streaming services and other online meeting platforms this meeting is being held in person and through the zoom meeting platform being broadcast from burrow Hall 7 48 River Road Fair Haven New Jersey public participation for this meeting on August 7th 2024 is available by call and phone number or through Zoom members of the public will be on mute until it is time for questions or comments which will be announced at that time the public has the opportunity to question or comment by phone or through Zoom by the raise hand button and will be called on at the appropriate time notice of this meeting was sent to the Asbury Park Press the Two River times and Star Ledger on January 26 2024 posted on the burrow website the Bolton board in the municipal building and have remained continuously posted as required under the statute with adequate notice having been given the shade tree commission secretary is directed to include this statement in the minutes of this meeting all right roll call chrisy Chris Larson here Mike d'el here Leah beani here Peter DTI said would be Mike CHR Kevin mcber here Jill Sullivan here Bonnie Toria here also presentent councilman Olen burough secretary Christy Larson you have a quorum okay you stand join me for the Pledge of Allegiance pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all everybody look at the prior meeting minutes yes minutes second and it's approved right in favor all right moving on Project updates fall resident tree buying program J okay so we are all set for fall um we we will start taking orders on August 19th the order period will go through the 13th of September which is nice because it's a little bit longer this year um and kind of like skips that first week of back to school craziness and gives people a week to wake up from Summer Madness um and we have um a decent offering this year of shade trees and flowering trees um I just sent the uh um pamplet whatever you want to call it document over to Christie so that would be ready to circulate um and from that we could pick uh I see on the agenda we could pick our trees that we want to plant in town um few changes or um clarifications I guess is a better word that will be made to the order form um the first being an ackn M that residents may not ask for in Brook to move any Shrubbery trees or do any like Landscaping before they plantet tree which was um happened we'll just say that um and that uh also acknowledging that residents are responsible for marking their sprinkler systems um and not and fbook understands that not every resident will know where their sprinkler lines are however they must acknowledge that they that is their responsibility um so that if a line gets hit like it it it doesn't turn into something it shouldn't um firm Brook does the Mark out for all the other utilities um so those are the two big big you know changes or or just um you know check boxes that we're requiring of residents to um the place in order other than that it's very similar to how it's been past few times hopefully it'll be um as successful if not more um you know each time we planted around 50 trees so looking forward to doing that right sounds good okay and has it gone live I saw the email you sent the order form no it's it's GNA go live um on August 19th um it's my belief uh and proven out quite frequently that people won't even respond to this until it's the week before so there's no benefit into really keeping it out there long um then why wait but this will give us a week from um it will give us next week to you know make any modifications to the document which I don't think we have to do at this point um Christie's proof sprad my work she made that order form everything seems to be linked and ready to go I gave uh Leah the um the graphics for social media um if anybody would like that one of those Graphics if they could post on their personal page um I'd be happy to share so you know do you share with the other commissions like um Bal commission or Green Team I'm sure they would will be happy to too yeah I'm talking to her well I'll I'll message it to themagr right okay yes that would be great um y um and I do have the trees here but it might be better Christie if have the visual and for when we I don't know if you want to skip over the um are you talking about the the vote on the vote location sure I guess that make sense to nice little seg pick them and pick locations yeah yeah I mean I have it here but I think it see if you don't mind pulling up that um information pamphlet yeah very big all right well she's up does anybody have a location in mind did anybody come up with any thoughts on this I was thinking about um the community center field by the field there there was actually an email that I saw about um that a bunch of trees were taken out of there um and it was on yeah it was on this agenda and it kind of just went away like they had said um wasn't on this agenda but that's what I was told it was on the Shad agenda in 2019 or something do anything until but do you think it's too I mean I don't know where it's if it's I think we I feel like we talked about this a lot we decided that we were waiting until done when done with the construction right yeah I think it was the same issue I mean years ago the uh residence on Maple had back up to it the trees were taken down they shaded their yard and um I guess at the time the the town told them that they would replace the trees or they were going to replace the trees in the community center but just Happ and anytime we did bring it up in the past it was due to pending destruction you know that's fine yeah I have no problem I saw the email today and I think we could put it on the you know new items for the next meeting for sure we did make a promise to those residents yeah once it was finished so yeah whether it's these trees or you know something in the future yeah well hopefully this keeps going so there's always the opportunity to do that I mean the the one thought I had about where um these can potentially go is in marter park on that um on the side the sidewalk side where near the school near Willow there's that empty area that's on the field um that that the grass has a hard time growing because it's very Sandy and I think because you know people run through there a lot um but the whole pathway the whole walkway around it is treelined except for in that location um so that was that was my thought but I know we also talked about the um replacing those Maples that on the Cherry said were really damaged right um anybody else have anything they want to but I love the that the trees along the fence so that when people are waiting for their kids they have some shade there it's so hot yeah it is I did take pictures of that at one point um but everyone knows what that looks like right you know what I'm talking about yeah um if we don't have any other locations we could put the locations up I guess for a boat but I like that idea I was yeah I was proposing the same thing the Fair Haven Road side but um there are trees there now they're struggling Sher doesn't give them too much hope so what's important is that we protect the trunks we really do that right away um because that's it's critical now these year um anybody feel strongly one we have five right I think we said we said oh 2500 is the number all right so that was you can always read and what is what's the going rate on the trees this go around now it's the same it's 270 to uh 3 85 85 how many trees do you think would fit near um CLE school at part par that um I don't know what do you think F4 yeah I I think it could take yeah easily symmetric okay or I mean I like odd numbers but we said five I think someone that so you could put four you could replace one of the or or just plant one between the two dying trees on faad road and I mean remember the sail modes there and it's going to get really big so maybe put like a dog wood or something or an ornamental tree there um something smaller is there anything that would fit that Bild can we Christy can you pull the trees up um depending on the locations of Park you might have to coordinate with DJ no director Park Brian I don't know you think that Council of public lands I missed it planting trees on public lands yeah coordinate to coordinate that you want to see pictures um if you just do that document where you kind of like it's a couple Pages yeah I got it here all right can you see this all right yeah little bigger so these are the sheet tree section so these are the first three like larger trees M and then this is like a more medium siiz tree can be CAU tree the next three yeah and then the last one is um a skinnier upright tree don't you want a kind of a and then these are the flowering trees there's only three of them should we put qu and cherries where those those trees are dying from the rub on road or no tree there probably not they're not shade trees yeah um what was the keep going up Christie keep going that's nice I like that that one's a smaller one what's the price tag on the uh people all the shade um all the shade trees are 385 okay and as are the um flowering trees it's just the everg set di down a little bit anybody have an opinion I vote for Elm Elms Forge Elm because I think these are they're resistant to the Dutch Elm we've lost a lot of Elms um so there aren't a lot in town really you know uh well we could look I just mash up everything I'm talking the coffee trees are nice look at you at the right what was the top tree again a little bit London is that the first one you're right Elms are not we don't have any Elms in our top 30 species oh you oh you're looking at the inventory yeah yeah I wouldn't say that there would be but sounds good I like the go so the question is that is of course native do you want diversity on that line because this is the problem if you plant fourms and then something attacks them right so maybe interpers like two Elms and two something else and then maybe something different on the street I mean what the coffee trade like Kentucky coffee is a native you know I'm going to go with the natives but um great should that's kind of a we probably don't have many of them either right I I don't remember seeing any of those on here two El and two Coffee Tree tough species tolerates very condition Lyon has too heard of some of these all right let's go with the what Chris said I mean I think somebody that's in the no should go ahead and look over on that spot we're talking about and make sure we could fit for trees yeah we could always I mean I mean we put at this point could we you know be like oh we can only put three there we can only fit three we can move the one over yeah they're not going to hold us and it's definitely within budget right so yeah I think it's a good idea to have Sher maybe take a look sure and then she makes recommendation that's a good idea you know and I think like um actually but um during the uh Farmers Market Kevin from Fernbrook was there yes and that is right there is he going to be in the next one I don't know I call 17th I think and maybe we could even have them take a peek at it planting but we do have to kind of firm it up at this meeting because we will be so motion to approve that site or I make a motion to approve that site for the planting of trees from the sh tree commission all four atter Park well depending on the number that you know a tree expert will say or anybody who's in the no will say it's three four whatever it is it's well within budget that's yeah approve purchas the four yeah and if there's an if we can't fit the fourth we could put it at the community center where the people in promise trees or something a backup yeah or we could put it on the fair Heaven side fairen road side between one of those yeah no no no no no I just was thinking that I think what's there are they flowering Tre the ones that are dying map are they Maples yeah so we go with two Maples and two coffee trees then Elms and c el do El oh El all right that motion motion to approve up to four trees in the location uh on Willow correct it's on Willow right in it's in in M par it might be nice to have a sign for one a Pharm second those in favor Mission like a sign at at the farmers market saying that we're going to be planting trees there that would be nice okay all right back over to the inventory brand back to B all right so this a lot has happened a lot has happened this um um this is where we were as of Friday they've already inventoried 1700 trees pass these down Brian and this kind of gives you um a summary of of where they are so far as of this afternoon they were at 2100 and maybe give K one of those yeah I would just ask that this um this paper stays infal until it's all done just we want to be able to like digest it um yes so there are 2100 trees as of this afternoon um so there's there's good news um I think the biggest good news is that our budget of 2600 trees is going to is going to be enough to cover the entire town we're inventorying all the street trees all the parks and it actually got to the point where they called me at the end of last week and said um I should I guess I should back up we had split the town into three zones of priority um and Nick Pinsky helped us do that so um priority a b c um just because we had no idea how far we were going to get with the 2600 trees so on Friday they were about to start Zone C and they were at 1700 trees so they were confident that they were going to have plenty of space to finish so with that um Nick and I spoke earlier this week and we added onto the zones so what this was able to include was um the Trail around Fair Haven Fields um the the area behind um Fair Haven 4 the baseball field where they're off of marter and Hendrickson where there's all those trees there um and it's also probably going to be able to include the new planting project on the Third Street Trail so um that's that's that's high would likely once that's done um we will go back and we'll probably still have a couple coule maybe you know a couple hundred spaces where we also gave them a priority priority streets to go back and identify planting locations which will Aid us to come up with a plan like we were just doing on deciding where trees can go um you know kind of help us come up with a you know a tree planting n plan which will probably also tie into what we're trying to do with this this uh fund that we're creating through the new ordinance um so that's that's what's going on there um awesome what were we thinking it was only to cover like half originally we had no idea like that was really it could have been like it was just really hard to estimate um you know the other I mean I'll speak with him again tomorrow to see where he's at but you know based I based on that screenshot that I actually showed you I sent to you in an email later this afternoon um it kind of shows where you can see where he's gotten where they have gotten um from Friday to today so this is what he sent me so you can see he's been through they've been through Fon fields and looks like they started a thir stre Trail actually oh so that's like real you see oh is that it yeah right there those blue dots next to the purple dots I think that's a thiry trailer oh maybe that's maybe that's um Country Lane never mind they haven't done the thir Trey Trail yet yeah it's hard to it's yeah yeah so um the three zones purple blue and yellow no those were those were the zones um how they're entering the information they're entering it um like when you when we look at this data we'll be able to to pick out particular Parks so you'll be able to say show me what's in the Carter Park for example um but for Street trees it's going to go by trash zones so that's just the way that um that Nick would like it so that's what those are uh you'll see the four zones there wow so so it looks like he still has a little bit of going around Fair Haven fields to do it looks like they just started that a long range there but anyway I had mentioned Bonnie that um when they were ready to go through Third Street Trail that um you mark might want to just walk them through it and kind of prioritize what what would be most helpful okay um obviously staying like on the trail like they they're not wandering into it's not appropriate for like you know the Natural Area and stuff like that but um for that project area I thought that you guys would I know that Mark was like saying he wanted the device to get out there and do it himself um surprise surprise so um okay yeah do do you have any do you want to just you have my number of course yeah so um y yeah so anyway this was you know through these sheets you see that this is what I was referencing these are the top 30 species that we have um oh it's you know interesting that we have 105 species so far um you know it gives it gives you the height range here um and the condition of the trees and I will also add um it's not here but any um tree that has a dbh greater than 12 they also are adding a risk assessment um to the tree which was something that we need for the new and whatever that management plan did you watch them do it like how long did they spend on each tree I'm just curious how long it took them to they're pretty quick they're outside my Gia was outside my house and I managed to catch her took a picture yeah uh and she was pretty quick and she also identified yeah the hazard we have a couple trees that are greater than 12 in dbh and she's like oh this one has a limb that probably needs to be addressed by the town because it's dead so she's doing that and she's putting that in there so that's great yeah trimming it it's very comprehensive like it's everything has like a priority of of recommended maintenance and um it says like Priority One removal Priority One M like it's very comprehensive if you just look at the screen quick like I click on this tree and you see all that you see a picture that they took see all this information that they populate about this tree wow yeah so that's what they're populating and then we'll obviously get the hard data in Excel but just then you can just like filter to the dead trees or whatever like see the condition filter that's great so this is great because one of the main functions of our commission is to to identify trees that could be hazardous Public Safety so this is great yeah um which kind of reminds me of something else um in in doing this um and speaking with some residents there was a concern over identifying um invasives um in particularly the tree of heaven with the lantern flies uh and where that would fall into like the U priorities of of you know of Maintenance and or removal um and I I'm I'm guessing that that you know addressing that is going to require some sort of additional grants that are not going to be something that are going to probably make its way into the town budget I would imagine um so I just G to throw it out there if anybody wants to go looking for a grant for invasives that might be something that would be a good like you know followup to what we're doing yeah like Norway Naples our second most prevalent tree right they're a bad tree generally speaking right there's tons of them there of themer Hol are really good that's good there so many American Hol on the street like where I mean like it's a I always think prob people with backyards there's a ton of them in in the Park yeah that's where Jill thank yeah this report's pretty great this is gonna help DBW take care of something I hope so help us speak more factually about what's going on out there right that is great it's kind of concerning how many I mean 40% is I don't know did they comment on that 41% is good and then they 50% fair and I don't know they have not made comments on anything and they will not comments now that's I mean do they have excellent or good is the top thing the top yeah yeah okay so they're in good sh I just was curious if that was what most towns have or I know um they definitely are not commenting on their opinions on the trees they're just here to collect the data okay yeah so I mean that's what they all right very good uh moving on to item D the CME tree report 21 Fair Haven Road um this memo was attached when uh Christie sent out the agenda everybody had a minute to review it um what are we calling this now that this 21 Fair Haven Road it are we 21 Fair Road I'm sorry are but are we going to be considering it like a passive Park in the future or like so there's a committee that's formed to address it and I don't I don't know what they're going to decide but my Des is they're going to recommend something like a pass definitely not going to be a water park okay you know that um so anyway uh comments concerns from anyone I reviewed it I read it I saw invasives and trees that were dead dying or otherwise um that they were recommending be taken down from this property property is not in particularly great repair is this are we talking about the one of the dot I'm sorry yeah the town what last year some at some point last year I just um it looks like they're like most I walked down there this morning with my dog after I saw this and you can't go on the property and that's blocked because they're trying to stabilize it um and I could see like a couple big pins it's very hard to tell until we I what really what the shape of the trees are in because there's so much I but I said I I just text a cherry real quickly and just said are you is this recommending a clearcut of this property like what it sounds like you're not saying anything it's worth saving she said no no no um because I like I was said I was wor about the bank that goes up to that neighbor um and if you clearcut like if if we did what we did on the habitat property went in there to remove some trees and decided well we're here we'll just take everything down I would hope that would never happen again but I think you could cause a real problem for that neighbor with all this rain that we just had and you took out the trees and Sh would wash all down and I just would I would go in there slowly taking things out I just hope that they you know I actually called Nick too just to talk to him about it but I didn't get it call back okay um the way I read it I mean it seemed like she was addressing specific trees and that she's recommending those trees be removed I mean it seems like quite a few but Norway Maples obviously we want gone right um and the black black black are native but they're kind of weaving yeah and completely dead leaning significant decay six of them entire tree located near the parking sign failing condition further into the side property leaning towards the road missing canopy covered in IB decay in the main stem right yeah I mean just speaking directly to the me Memo and the trees that she's talking about I I'm a inclin to really not take any issue with what she's recommending be done it seems like in here there's nothing that's worth salable right and that you should stand in the way of planning to create what they want on the property comeing afterwards and then suggest what should be planted but in order to move it forward with taxpayer money that bought it we should allow them to clear PA to develop it how they your Council votes on developable in my I certainly think getting rid of the Tre that she recommends I don't know what is there that's not recommended there's just I just I I'm just because of what happened at that corner property um I just really want them to go in and say oh we're in here might as well just cut everything down so we can easily work on it I think that would be not the best solution I I you know that they flag trees that are in this this memo with some kind of ribbon that are getting cut down so I think have a hack come in here they they did have the habitat they just decided they had a mark uh it was a real time decision so I was able to see the email thread and the way I characterized there was a miscommunication between the office and the field I think it was UN intentional nobody was was happy so I'll make sure it doesn't happen again well that's what I'm just just saying let make sure that that doesn't happen so they should be tagged right and and and the ivy I mean she said it's a multi-year I don't know how hard it is to the I I don't know what are they look for our approval yeah I mean this was forwarded to us for comment just to and make us aware okay really this isn't a voting it it's just no and I I think the message here would be you know from us the council if fair enough to say is you know the trees that are addressed here I don't think we we have an issue with them any issue with them coming down we know the property's got to be remediated in some way um but and you know to Bonnie's point we we would hate to see a Calamity like no clear the trees are marked by shering and that they're cognizant of even if I mean say that whole hill is Norway maple I don't think you take all of them out and destabilize the hill until you have something else planted I don't know that's I just would make sure yeah but I leave that up the Sher yeah that's good point I'm not an expert I hear El on good rightt time moving on to every 's favorite topic discussion can we set a goal of what we want to accomplish this tree ordinance tonight because no it just seems like it seems like this just continues to go on in like in a circle and obviously it's Gotta at some point get put into motion yeah if I oh if I could just say you just I get what you're saying Mike I I think we're here now we're dealing with something that it's been going on for years and three four years um and to no Avil no nothing to show for it and it's you know a little disheartening but we're here now we're working with a a new model ordinance it's not perfect for everybody but that's the way I think all ordinance probably shake out I think that's the way just life is now everybody's going to love everything um but I think we really should be at the end of this meeting I would really like to be in a position to hand it off so it could be forwarded to an attorney to our attorney for review and then taken to the powers to be for further discussion and fingers crossed some action passing um I just you know want everybody to keep in mind that you know over the years we my goal is I I would like it to benefit the shade tree commission and I think if we put something like this in place and we could always work with it again in the future if we find out there's the shortcomings are just too much to handle we can probably address those but if we get funds rolling in our direction that is something you know that'll help make up for the shortcomings of this ordinance I think um if you think about the list that Christy distributes at every meeting all those trees that come down they're probably going to come down anyway they're coming down under the current ordinance if there was another column in that sheet that showed the money coming to the shade tree fund that we could now take action and offset those trees coming down I think I think it'll make our our job a lot more enjoyable to be honest with you instead of sitting here meeting after meeting talking about things we want to do and then having to say well how many how many can we plant I don't know how much money we have left now um I've spoken to other commissions some of them have they have a lot of money like the environmental commission I was talking to Carolyn Ferguson wasn't it the natural the natural I'm sorry kiding this the Natural Area and you know we spoke about the the cherry trees on Fair Haven Road and how she would like to help us and you know you know work with those cherry trees maybe continue the line but protect the ones that are there replenish the ones that are there um it would be great if sh Tre could take a bigger role in that but it's going to take money and it's going to be money that we're not going to get from the town it's going to be tight um I think this would be that's a perfect example of getting an ordinance in place that brings money to US same thing with this 21 Fair Haven Road Project right now wouldn't it be great to say when the work is done and the the project moves forward wouldn't it be great as a commission to be able to say Hey you want 10 trees you want to put them there we got them so I mean you know who knows who knows what the number is going to be but to be in a position where we can just uh plant trees take a bigger role in projects like you know Mark Olson takes on does a great job it be able to give him some funding it' be great to be able to do that and I think we just we stop sweating every little thing move forward I think we can have something that's very manageable and I think it's I think it's going to work for us we can move forward um it's not perfect and that's where we're going to discuss it now again get some additions get some thoughts together and um but really with the goal of finishing up this meeting and having something that we can you know again maybe we're not all 100% happy with but something that we can at least say Yep this is going to be a benefit let's go we can all stand behind it and push Council to take action on jump in there set yeah very um so I have it teed up to be workshopped on the council September 9th okay so that'll be voted on the next meeting assuming it gets through the workshop I agree couldn't agree more that let's get it over the line um can you just tell me what what a workshop entails is it like a small committee or no that's a good question I didn't know until I um so what it is it's introduction of the topic it has to be aired publicly chrisy correct me if I'm wrong but it has to be aired publicly and then rest for two weeks getting feedback and then you vote on it the next next Council a certain time period between introduction and adoption and adoption and when does the lawyer read through the whole so well let me just walk through the process so we've talked about it a couple of times I've talked with the group I've talked individually with several of you um I've had various drafts um the draft you have with the red on it is um feedback that I got from the environmental commission they all had a look at it I got feedback from half dozen of them I think their feedback is in here um I did um done some work with the New Jersey shade tree Federation uh that back and forth with Department of Environmental Protection of the state um reviewed ordinances of six other towns um in Mammoth County um so the idea the next step for me would be sort of what you said is I'd like to get this group nailed down at this meeting there's nothing in August correct or excuse me the next the next next meeting September September yeah there's a council there's no there's a limited meetings of Council in August so get this done tonight um and then have between now and September 9th have the attorney look at it and then bring Council on the night for a discussion I hope that you all could be there on the night that's when it will be discussed um and um a big a br a big framing element of this for me is I want to make sure it's something that the council passs there is sort of touching on at the beginning there is a battle between um I call them environmentalists and private property rights and those are both Noble causes um and they are sometimes at odds sometimes they're together um and so I'm trying to I'm trying to create as much Common Ground as I can with this um and I know everyone's not going to be happy most people will be slightly irritated which is probably about right no one should be furious nobody should be delighted should be slight irritation is is my is my view that's called a compromise yeah so compromis so I'd love to go through it so there's already a few edits um the Preamble comes before the word Preamble so um if you you see the word Preamble I put that up at the top um the uh and then the part after preamble like maybe the fourth paragraph down um that's sort of repeated with the red so maybe some of that gets Blended in together I don't know if you like one version better than the other but they sort of get it the same thing um and then the 203 tier a ms4 paragraph that will go down into purpose and then from there we can um we can uh move on to the content discussion so there was strong feedback that we had the protection to sort of signal the meaning of it um and then more on the Preamble that's something Bonnie also brought up in one of our early meetings the purpose is we have to comply with storm water rules um and then um just the the general benefit that trees give to the community property values and you that's purpose property values and um wind protection soil erosion Etc so the next section is any questions on that maybe I just run through it all then at the end we talk so definitions um the uh so applicant is the is the person that's meant to capture um a homeowner or a pre professional that might be applying for a permit um critical root Zone um it's strange that's that's in the ordinance but it doesn't really talk about it anywhere else I have a diagram for how to calculate it diameter at breast height um is you all know what that is um and then I've got a couple diagrams of how to measure those Hazard tree um the added um added in U utility lines there something interfering with util line that can be deemed a hazard tree invasive species or invasive tree was added um I took this definition off of um the New Jersey Strategic Management plan for invasive species in 2009 uh large scale free removal that's to to address um clear cutting if you will the developers um a large scale tree REM report be how that's communicated LTE is a license tree expert this is all the black stuff is stuff we've already seen um I'll jump to L placeholder um I don't want to start a tonight but that's meant to capture Heritage tree um and I I'm struggling with with that maybe we can maybe we can or specimen tree tree yeah speciment Tre um it's sort of a sloppy concept some people view it one way some people view it another and then how do you deal with them so I thought let's just put a placeholder there that could be addressed later I'd like to get this across the line and generate the money the shry commission um and we can address it later if we need to if it came to a conclusion um let's see we can just skip through the rest of the definition so section three related activities um the word optional struck that out I don't know how that was in there it was a good point that many people brought up um let's see the applicant will be subject to an application fee as a table below um let's see um so I added three and four to clarify the way this table is used the tree replacement requirements table so in plain English what this table says is you measure the tree that's being removed the the dbh column puts it in the category and everybody pays the $50 application fee that goes to the town that's the town's money for processing that application and then the homeowner can choose A1 or A2 they can either replant a tree or trees to replace the one that was taken down or if it doesn't work for some reason um they can pay a replacement tree fee um another option that's in here is if the municip determines that um it's that C1 if the municipality determines that some or all required replacement trees cannot be planted in the property where the tree removal is occurred then the applicant can either um plan a replacement tree tree in a separate area approved by the municipality or pay the fee that's what that's meant to be any questions that's probably the biggest meat of the whole thing stop there any question for the fee um treat placement fees where do we come up those numbers so um I think it's meant to approximate the cost of a NE tree it's a it it was a common dollar amount in other ordinances so that is that fair they're about 500 bucks a tree so there's a bunch of exemptions like if you're a tree farm um I did add in this and again when I say add this is environmental commission feedback yes C1 a yeah um is that suggesting that you want that applicate to go on someone else with private property and do that no it would be on public property I believe let's see good question separate area approved by the municipality I'm just curious that we'd let people just go do that I well so that's a good question it says applicant if the so the the city the way applicant shall be one of the following planed to replace your treat in a separate area approved by the municipality feel that so the municipality has to approve that they can put it there so it would have to be the public property or the thing I that I hadn't thought of is what if I said I can't plant or I don't have room to plant a tree but my neighbor says it's okay to plant it there could the municipality say that's okay good question I didn't think about that yeah I thought about I thought about like if I don't have room for a tree I could plant it in Third Street Trail and the municipality says yes that's fine we're not talking about them actually doing the physical planting no no not the physical planting having having well I guess it would be the same way as you'd pay the fee out right then and then we would plan it on third because if you're not putting on your property then oh hold on what's that one at a time I have trouble sorry I was just saying like um I like your idea like if if if the homeowner for example on their property down on the public part of the property and they're like oh I don't want to put another tree here and they pay the Fe fee or you said that maybe put it on the neighbor's piece of piece of the neighbor's property that's not on the public domain of the property it would have to versus like the Third Street Trail Third Street Trail to me you'd have to pay the fee because you're not on your neighbor's property or your property am I missing something yeah I think so I take down a truth yep I have two options I can e well three options I can I can plant a replacement tree let's just say it's one for one I can plant a replacement tree or I can pay a fee or I can get the municipality to agree to let me plant my tree somewhere else other than on my property oh okay and the way I was interpreting that is like like Third Street Trail or you know a park or something um and the municipality is going to have to say that's okay um those are the three scenarios that you have so in scenario three the the applicant is purchasing the tree and then responsible for actually putting in the ground on an approved space I don't think of them as putting shovel on the ground or paying someone to paying someone to do it but that take like nobody from the burrow or us would be responsible if they're choosing option three that would be my my read that would be my interpretation of it unless chrisy she's got this is one a lawyer would probably yeah lawyer that's a good a good thing for the lawyer to look at it is yeah um just the T because the if someone doesn't want the tree and is willing to pay for the tree but what if there's like a storm water management situation um that if they don't plant the tree it actually could create issues for like a neighbor yeah uh like how does that fit in here that specific scenario isn't addressed I think the the concept of the model ordinance and the requirement to have this is to um address storm water management with for the community I don't I don't know that it gets into it doesn't get into the detail of one property versus another um okay but should a license tree expert be evaluating and saying that is going to cause a real problem well license treat expert does have a r I think that's exemptions and that's also for the the large scale removers um no but I mean it's just a huge tree that's you know soaking up all the yesterday all the rain from yesterday yeah I know yeah that that specific scenario is not addressed and actually I didn't see I read six other towns I didn't see it okay I'm just thinking about people who in town complain to me about water storm water issues that they have on their property due to a neighbor so you know that's like stuff yeah what this is supposed to do is is gradually increase the number of trees in town just in general not a specific spot but just all over and make sure add Stone water and that's the purpose of of the tier a ms4 requirement we do we have a replacement plan but there's no specific thing for individual okay um a great point but I think there's like so many commutation of things that can happen right them all an ordinance yes to be realistic get anything done well that's why it's really important I think to put in the significant tree or the specimen tree because those are the trees that cutting them down makes a huge difference in so many ways for the canopy for the swim water for the character of the neighborhood I mean that's why I really think we should with something and there is the that definition about it 60% of the largest in Mammoth County which is somewhat confusing and I don't know where you get if that's published every year or there is a website I don't know so I agree with you that's why I have a placeholder in there but I feel like that's a Hot Topic because it's hard to it's hard to Define it's hard to what do you who who is to be the final who gets the final Arbiter of that who gets to say um and I feel like it'll slow it down and we won't pass it for another year so I'm of the mind that we get this done with the stuff we agree on and it's a placeholder let's work on it you can always amend it it's never going to get amended though that's not just put it in I mean I I guess I I understand that we want to get this through and we want to get the tree fund but is not the purpose of this whole thing to try to preserve the trees in our town and the character of our town in addition to having better air quality and poer temperatures and less water running in our streets I mean I it does seem to me that those big trees that are 200 years old I mean unless they're hazardous they really are serving a huge purpose and I've seen tree ordinances are specifically pointing them out as being super trees I mean that just and I get point you buy a house with a great big tree on it you that should be kind of part of your deal with the property I don't know I just but the other side of the coin is that and I'm not necessarily thinking this way but if I buy a big house of the big tree we have severe weather with whatever you want to call Global Warming different different gold streams and so on people I know in town sleep in their basement every time there's a thunderstorm because they're afraid their house is going to get crushed by the big tree so they have a right to remove that tree that's that's just the way it goes I mean you have a multi-million dollar house and you're afraid your kids are afraid to sleep in their bedroom because there's a storm coming through it's you know you can't dictate that they have the right not everybody's not going to do it because a lot of people like big trees and they're not going to think that way but I know multiple people in town have specifically said to me when storms com through with the magnitude we had yesterday they will not let their kids be in the bedrooms so that's that's what you're going to face so this the way we split the Adam on this is the property right element right the tree is owned by the person but the trees are owned by the community so you can take a tree down because you own it but you got to replace the tree and if it's a big tree you got to replace it with a lot of trees it's not perfect and and he's not he's not happy and you're not happy and I think that's that's and I I really do think that we can make this an agenda item um maybe not every meeting but every other meeting well we revisit these tou we get Comm and the counil and I will personally make sure that we are talking about this ordinance you know you know all in due time going forward just so if we do see there are deficiencies or things that we can add I personally feel that we will make recommendations to the council and hopefully the council will hear us I don't think this is going to be a stagnant one time thing I hopefully this is a dynamic living breathing document it was always on our agenda it was always on our agenda and we can put it back once we get it past it's mice Point it'll never you know not going to die on our every tree has to go through the application process whether it's 6 in or 80 in whoever it is Sherry or whoever else will be evaluating the application so is there a way maybe to as discre like something some kind of clause that gives the licens tree expert the so I do have I have a possibility for that there's something like that I have I've contemplated a vehicle for situations that are a little murky and that is appendix a so that is where this body will give either a list of approved trees or a list of trees that are not recommended trees that are encouraged or trees that are not encourage right the basic whatever and I thought about the gray area the context of the Preamble if there's more that Bonnie wants to say this would be a good spot right you could put in there a pre sort of another Preamble or another benefit a postamble and you this chrisy this is where this committee could say look if the tree is 200 years old you know stop and think come and talk to us or you know something like that right you could really highlight it um and then back on the amendment I do think to Mike's Point it's easier to amend an ordinance once it's passed um you think about this has been four years in the making it's a heavy lift once we get it done then I think coming back to Council in six months a year and say you know what there was a 150y old tree that got taken down it doesn't make sense let's figure we've come up with the solution let's add it that's a tiny well not me it tiny but it's smaller than this we have a tree and we've just been trying to amend it and amending it is the problem right we had it be we had one but you know we've always said that it just didn't have any enough teeth right but we've been trying to amend it and that's the problem like trying so I just don't think it's as easy as you make it out to be to get back on well we there was there were a lot of problems with that ordinance or we felt there were some deficiencies May that's why we had to revamp the whole thing um and that's what you know that was the impetus of this whole thing C years ago so I don't you know I I just like the idea of getting something brand new fresh and then we can you know it be cognizant to all of us and we can constantly take a look at it and evaluate it and make changes as we see fit so my you can see again the intention is to address that that's a placeholders for so my intention is that we do this just don't want to slow this down make it be another but we have to have some just something in there when you say placeholder sorry does that mean when you when you present this like it's going to say placeholder within with the known fact that need to Circle back to the what this conversation or I read bonded n for living and this is a common feature to sort of put put a a blank space in there because sometimes you refer back and you don't want to have the letters change so I wanted to have a a space refer it could be used for something else it doesn't have to be can we be more specific with that placeholder can we say placeholder Das specimen trees you can't identify yeah I mean large so I I specimen um I think there's two components of the the specimen tree one is easier than the other so defining what they are that's the easier one and then how to address them is a that's where you get property rights environmentalist really Bute heads there and so I'm I think adding a definition of the specimen tree might be might be worthwhile you I mean in in the one that was up for a long time it's there l i mean specimen 3 Is Shel be any tree with a diameter at breast height exceeding 60% of that the largest similar tree listed NE M County's largest trees prepared and updated commission or New Jersey trees I mean I don't know why they can't just put a number on that each year or something why they have to I don't know where you find all that information part of the part of the problem right so I don't know why the shade the M County shade tree commission can't just say specimen ches should be measured against this number right it would be different by species well yeah what's that going to solve though you just can't touch that tree it's like a like you're not to follow the the grid and and pay $1,000 like you I have a tree in my property and this ordance is going to tell me I can never down no but that you're I'm just curious what the goal is like what's the goal the goal is just seriously to make people stop and think and proect a trade so I like that I like that definition for that reason because it's somewhat obscure and you would actually have to do some research but find out it would pause the whole process we talked about that before it gives people pause all right now I have to look into this tree or have someone look into this tree um and in the meantime who knows it they'll at least think about it before they cut it down it's not going to be like all right I thought about it on Monday I'm cutting it down on Friday it's going to take a little while and I actually kind of like that definition for that reason I think that good point gives it the pause the somewhat complicated obscurity I mean they have a significant tree here too which is the tree or Grove of trees recognized as significant by the shade tree commission or enforcement officer on the basis of specimen quality historic significance location size or other unique characteristics yeah I think it those it just makes it murky and I'm just looking at I have the little Sil ordinance which was kind of like used as a a bellweather uh by the environmental commission so I clicked on and looked at I don't see anything about a specimen Tree in here so I mean not to say that we should not add it but I think it's something that we should really you know discuss at further meetings um and not to jeopardize with do right here and try to get this uh this ordinance I mean my what I've heard about this little silver is that they asked us for our what you on our three ordinance because they had to do this they had nothing and they had to do it but um then they fired um Delante um who's on their council is attorney he he wrote up this theirs basically for them and I mean I would love to see him weigh in at some point as an attorney as a person who has written through a whole we have our attorney I know but has he done a SE this is from the New Jersey Shad Tre Federation and I talked to them and they had lawyers involved and this is It's been cleared by a lot of state level people so I don't I don't feel compelled to ask what little so no yeah we just look we're looking for because we like little sers content you know it'll guarantee it never gets ass bring another attorney can we can we put a pin in this in this part and keep going and then come back to it yeah sure can I I ask a quick question just C cing up to the on a different topic but with something already the the chart on um criteria A1 are are we is there a way to to um address that once you replace the tree that you need to take make an effort to ensure it's survival yes okay there it is okay I'm sorry so it says that you um there's a 12 Monon clock and a 24mth clock I think it's replac after 12 months where is it yeah page it's right above the uh oh sorry that yeah how is that going to be enforced I guess so we have an enforcement mechanism um is going you missed the meeting last time you were tree officer you light on top of your truck it's I I gave the discretion there tomorrow to the town to the B administrator to decide who the enforcement person will be it's on enforcement is section five or be forced by the police department and or the municipal officials of Fair Haven as determined by the bur administrator so the reason that is flexible is in 10 years I don't know if maybe the person that's enforcing it is a pro developer person and is not going to enforce it so that gives flexibility the pro administrator to listen to this committee or the council or to whatever and say hey we want to you know we want to change it from police chief to whatever so else so that's why that's intentional fible Brian can I that um number three what be monitored by the applicant for a period of two years monitored doesn't sound like it's being cared for I mean I think it you want to put protected well it says to ensure they're survival and shall be replaced as needed within 12 months but if you just said water and and the trunk I'm I'm telling you at the number of trees I've seen damage in town their trunks just and then we're going to have all these trees that get to a certain height and then die it's so important to put something on that trunk so I mean I would suggest that they have to protect the tree ensure their survival like so well but if you just tell them what they have to do I mean I think people don't understand how they have to protect the tree but the is the purpose of an ordinance I mean like there's so many words we can put into an ordinance is the purpose of an ordinance to teach people how to water a tree no it's just to say we expect you to do that so can I jump in here so it does say to ensure their survival but I think something like that would be good in the appendix a to say you need to do more than water the tree you know deer will eat it or you know whatever um and that would be a good place for that and maybe that changes in five years maybe there's a disease that comes from Asia and you got to say you have to put coffee grounds around it you know whatever I think that works like to have like a recommended yeah like best practices or that's a great place for that I like that um when you said the critical root radius um you're not sure why that's in there that is for construction which I don't think there's anything in here about protecting the tree existing trees during construction is there I did not see that which I think is really important because that we've all seen that abuse that that there's trucks parked on the tree roots that there's um so this is meant to protect and replace trees protect yeah protect that's cover there it's not meant to handle construction we have we have construction it actually really is that's something that we need to when a developer is you know in there and they just are parking on they can take out whatever trees they get approved for but then they're parking on the roots of other trees and not protecting them adequately I mean it's a it's a it's violated all the time how well there's one of these that well it is part of zoning right when they get their when they go for their permits and stuff they do have uh they do lay out they you to protect the trees it's not I feel like it's not enforced very easily that's my point it's enforced all I think we need to if there's if it's possible for us to find a way to include that reference the zoning yes yeah and then needs to be like and then who's enforcing it that would be under zoning then if we so um the developer comes in clears a lot takes out 30 trees says he's going to plant like five months happened next door to me and it's like the neighbor from over here comes over says he doesn't want these trees droing leav into his pool there's three more gone and all this stuff is happening behind the constantly part of the seal process they can't get a CO without them laying eyes on these tree placements it's something they're very much held to probably gotten better then because I'm not being very curent but like it was bad like at one point I now like Joe and Nick it's on their like they don't get a SE unless they see these trees that have been replaced I mean that's that's great it's just that the you know like driving over the tree roots and like I saw a house what street was it on hormon and it was like the the canopy was this and it was like this much around the it was like around the trunk so that in no way was protecting the actual tree and that's why drip lines in there being defined because you're supposed to have B out to the drip line but that's why the critical root Zone and drip line are identified so this the dash that is the dri line that's what that is um he also has in is um we also have that in our definitions right the drip line yeah yeah didn't see drip line in a definition well critical root Zone critical root zone right the dri Line's important just it's it's just kind of protecting okay but we need to think of a first we need to agree on the concept what we're trying to do and then we need to think of a tangible way we have to put in the definitions the way it's applied the way it's enforced plain English isn't going to work so we would need you know we need to have um there okay this is BR Fair Haven there's so many ordinances this is ordinance of the Council of Fair Haven protection of existing trees in constru in connection with any construction subsequent to tree clearing but prior to start of other Construction St fencing or other protective barriers OB to the construction official and or bual engineer shall be placed around trees that are not to be removed that's fair hden yes so that addresses it well that was the original ordinance that's the original ordinance but it's so um the protective barrier shall be placed at the drip line or canopy line of any tree and shall remain in place until all construction activi is terminated no equipment chemicals soil deposits or construction material shall be placed within an area so protected by barriers so I think that's an important thing to happen so is everyone okay with that Lang should we add that no yeah so many things so good so then you have to add the drip line so to make the definition of drip line just yeah take a picture can I keep it um no because I don't know where I got that and then when it isn't in there I don't have evidence um you take pict the front I'm not sure yeah that so um let's see so exemptions we were talking about that no can I just go back to just a quick question guys uh for when you when we talked about touched on maintaining a tree uh if you have Tre that is planted elsewhere and not on your property I know it's a small point but it may happen are you get to monitoring that tree that are it's on your neighbor's property just not I would I would argue technically yes but hope that people could work it out is my answer yes something like arrange tree or something I don't know but somehow on their PL maybe we shouldn't give them the option yes they should just pay for it say that again they should just pay for it instead of giving them the option to go off and plant a tree or have one planted they should just either plant one in their own yard as a replacement or pay so to strike that yeah it just simplifies okay I like simple that adding by removing so that is going to be replacement Alternatives I'm going to get rid of that but I'm going to keep a and b no I have to keep the keep the go there's two funds in here yeah oh my gosh one um so the fa Haven shade tree trust Reserve fund is for you all to control you know money from this this ordinance that goes to you to do what you like for pling TRS and then the other one is is that Community appeal money or or bur money that's the community that's the community so that's separate so you guys that's a separate well the community appeal money goes to the into our trust fund right yeah why is that twoo different I want to have two because the community PE money I view is more um flexible you can do what you want with it whereas this I feel like it's dedicated to fing trees so one it identifies a specific social Revenue for3 specific um it's restricted there in stad it's going to be just one for one going right into trees and then Community appeal if you want to do something else there's a different source of Reven that's more PL you could use that money plant trees but that's true they use some of the community appeal money to paper Sherry to write grants irrigation You Keep It Wide Open what if we have a donation outside of the community appeal can we add and Community appeal donations and other donations like I know years ago somebody donated $100,000 to the town to plant trees on Main Street I I'm not sure that ever went where it's supposed to they just I think it just went into the what they call the rainy day fund and didn't realize so I if if I decided that I wanted to make a donation outside of community appeal um right now how where does that go and can we just say that my donation would go into this fund to make sure it doesn't go into the general fund well I think that's up to the donor specifically say what they want to do with their money and they can write it down they're not going to be I think there's that's in a tree ordinance I think there's laws what what kind of money can go what kind of fund I would think the donation that you're speaking of would be very similar to the community appeal money which is basically donations together and then distributed that's a restricted that's a restricted and and you have to spend another that the donor once like two separate things like absolutely like you're oblig do that no more exemptions so there's a bunch of like a tree farm or you know State officials and so on and then I did add invasive trees so that's something to talk about that means if a person takes down an invasive tree they do not need to replace it with feet let's say as an exemption to encourage this came from an environmental commission member to encourage the removal of invasives it's sort of a free I would argue that a person that's removing an invasive tree because it's invasive is probably going to want to be planting a new tree that's not invasive is my guess um but I suppose somebody could take advantage of it and Sayes technicality this same Bas of tree I'm going to not pay the $500 not well we have we have to have list invasive yeah we have to according and so maybe say invasives according to the shade tree commission's list of invasive trees well they still have to go through the process yeah they still still have I'm not saying they can say they can't make it up and say it's invasive it has to be deemed and it's determined by this 2009 invasive species plan by New Jersey the management plan so that that tells you what's in Bas um the um but what I'm saying is this the way it's structur right now would encourage people to take down an evive or or make it penalty-free do we want that or do you not want that as an exemption it's not an easy answer only catch there isas right definition invasive tree means a tree is not native New Jersey ecosystem his indu introduction cause are likely to cause economic environment harm or har unit Health C 2009 strategic meas plan isn't there's something more current than 2009 no so well you can find it I couldn't find it I mean that that would mean that 8% of our canopy could be removed right now without so do we want so again this came from environmental private well I mean I'm just saying we saying you know the public trees this is 8% are Norway Maples if you go ahead and put that and assume that you know they're on a lot on private property as well like here that's that's a lot of trees so what do you what do you put more value on REM moving in bases PL the trees it's a 6040 per me like it's not it's not clear they're probably only going to REM most of them probably don't know their invas and if they are going to remove it it's probably because it's dying right right majority the citizens are not until it comes to exactly that's my point that's why I'm saying I think we're better off get the Fe I would just I personally think we should just take it out I don't not even address it because that your point is valid you may not even know it's an invasive they definitely W most people they take it out but then on the other side if they go through the process which they're going to go through anyway I would assume our tree expert would point out that it's invasive he does right so I guess to your point take it out so we either way to be approved if it's invasive be approved it be approved but we what what we're talking about now what I think we're talking about is do we want that to be an exemption if it's an invasive tree the person doesn't not required to plant a new one or pay the feed it'll get approved but then it'll be approved but they don't have to repace we don't lose part of the I think they have to replace it yeah so it's not an ex I they have rep so then just I person just I'll strike that as an exemption then but I'm that's my thought are we agreement there take G out right so you guys Trump the EC well um you want to clarify one about that Hazard fees may be removed with no fear replacement maybe say no um you want to make sure they're still paying the application fee right yes yes so I may say maybe removed with no no fee or replacement requirement as but but what with no replacement fee you know what I'm saying I wanted to be clear that even if it's a hazard you can't just take it out with no application or no fee like you still have to pay the application fee reviewed right yeah everything needs to go through the process regardless yes right and the application fee gets paid for this to the town but he was talking about the tree replacement fee that's why it she the hazard Hazard trees can be removed without replacing it or paying the replacement fee but to Christy's point they still pay the app exactly yeah my point was I'm sure you that so um enforcement we talked about any comment on that you guys like the idea the flexibility yes then violations and penalties now what this is is sort of if you go outside the the process and you get caught this is your penalty and it basically is a dou so you you either plant one tree and pay the fee that you that's what you would have a choice between those two if you've done it right but now you get to do both or you pay double the money great I have a question for when like uh if someone were to like clearcut or like gr the roots and we don't know what it was so anybody who does go to large scale large tree Large Scale tree removal report Large Scale tree removal yeah fngg on page after the pictures so you're going to remove more than 20% of the canopy or five trees then you have to have a large scale tree remove report by the licensed tree exp okay so then they would have to pay per tree that's removed from that report that should delate yes there's a lot more scr if you're taking down 20% do you envision the penalty fees going towards the stage three Reserve fund or same as same as the other table so they go it should say that in there if it doesn't need to add it no if the penalty is not paid is it a lean on the property I don't believe so yeah give me $500,000 pay you know what I'll ask I'll ask so because what if people don't pay a fee or fine end up I think on a small small CLE quarter they get a um a summons I think that's the way things are I would suggest we do it's Harvard model course yeah it's just a question somebody ask that in Council me sure make's ready for that make sure so schedule B goes into the same fund as schedule a or whatever the the pr placement well I lost it here shade tree trust Reserve fund shade tree trust Reserve okay and then I think severability was in there and then appendix a I feel that's that's for you guys to that's going to morph when you can any emphasis or educational stuff that's where that yeah um back on the the violations and penalties um I would just like one simple sentence in you know right before any person just to make it clear again that any and all tree removals must go through the application process just to reiterate clear simple like you have to go through the you're gonna have to fill out the application regardless so you know along with that under the section three regulated activities you know wait where well the application process where SE section three um related activities no regulated activities yes I mean should it maybe be called instead of the application the procedure requirements for True removable permit I mean because at the end of section one shouldn't say no tree shall be removed until Municipal officies have reviewed and approved the removal and issued a tree removal permit don't they have to issue the permit hold on you lost me where were you what okay second three I know we need page numbers yes um so okay so you're are you in section 3A application process yes okay and I'm looking at one and I'm wondering if that last sentence no tree shall be removed until Municipal officials have reviewed and approved the removal and should continue with and issued a tree removal permit like the permit is actually issued but they approved the application at that point is it reviewed and approved the tree removal how do you see the approval is there ways you know if there's if it's online or it only they won't know unless they get a call from me a letter that has the permit that has the permit attached their permit number the write up from Sherry right so you just don't want them saying Oh but I submitted the thing and but I mean they have to get clearance from you right when they hand it in I verbally tell them you'll hear from us in a week or two okay make know process we say we to deal with the homeowner because sometimes a tree company cutting down the tree will just say like I'll do it or I'll get it you know we're not soe removal application and issue permit well it says no tree shall be removed until Municipal officials have reviewed and approved the tree application I think that's what that's saying yeah right but I'm just saying so what is what do you wish you what is the thing that you send a permit so that's what I'm just saying an issued a tree removal permit the actual permit they have received it and it's legit they haven't just applied and hoped for the best I don't it just seems more efficient makes it clearer is is there anything about denial of an appr of an application right there is no appeal it's not addressed here because we're not ever going to deny them no because so this um the I feel like there's this big loophole people can just argue it's a hazard tree and so they can they can the reality is they can just take it down um I've had to vote on a bunch of them and they they come up and they say you know the Bloom's going to fall on my kids and there's no way I'm going to vote no against that and so if that's the reality maybe it's not ideal but that's the reality so let's just make sure that new trees are coming in that people can take down their trees their property but they have to replace trees for the community either through cash or new trees the sort of it's not a perfect like I'm not happy with that either but it's I think if you move it one way or the other then the other side loses a lot and so just sort of this is the middle compromise so are you suggesting there's never there'll never be a denial like somebody will come through and um I guess if a permit is not approved so what what's this yeah does have to be an appeal because they're going to like what's the chain of they went to the burrow they denied it based on I don't know what they would have denied it based on it's a Heritage tree it's a specimen tree yeah is that the only thing that protects a tree anymore what if it's a specimen or a Heritage even then Bri makes good point you know someone says I think it's G to fall in my house fall my house well it's up to Sherry Sherry is the only person that determines if it's a hazardous tra that is not a home I mean I'm just saying people come to the council and they say well I know what they say but I mean it is it is Hazard is determined by our licens Tre expert it kind of should be right um hang and she Hazard tree no there's uh there's several it has infectious disease dead or dying exu obstructs the view of traffic signs causing a disrupt or is determined to be public health safety by elicense transfer so she is the one no it says that if the tree is dead or dying if it's infectious disease or insect if it obstructs traffic signs it's all or that last or or means it's or for all of those are C trees with the CH changing that to end well no they have to be all be dead or dying and infectious and OBU and um I meant like at the end when you it says license tree expert and so it would be or or or but said they all should be determined certifi all these qualifications theous disease insect is she evaluating all these things or just the fact it's hazardous I think she's just a if it's hazardous well well using the prior criteria I think it's probably she determining May yeah maybe outside the criteria if it's diseased or there may be a reason that she has that's not in does not signify that's why I think that that we have that state and the bigger issue is covered by having to have a plan if there's five or more already right so they require to have a li expert if they're going to take down 20% so can it so if people are coming in and being like this is a hazard even though Sherry's buau says it's not well that just happen and then so then that then but then they don't have to pay a fee right because they decided it's hazardous not Sher it needs to yeah the license expert needs to give them the out not paying the fee right right and I feel like it has to be determine that the hazard tree may be removed with no with no replacement requirement you know you know if the deter like the tree expert determines that it is in fact a hazard tree yeah I think that's important no I think it's a good point you're going to use the hazard tree you got to be able to defend it okay so so yeah we have consensus that we have hazard has to be determined by LIC should it be the town's LIC tree expert yes back LIC tree expert means a person who is currently licensed as a licensed expert by the New Jersey Board of Tree Experts so should be the town's yeah but so a lot of these tree removal guys could be technically also that and it's they they have a conflict of interest some people are like come with their application like here's the write up in my quote look what you said about my tree but like Sher doesn't even look at that she makes her own assessment right so it needs to be our Town's lie that determines whether or not it's a haard tra I'm going to ask so if we can do that like something deep inside me saying that I don't know that we can require people to use a specific professional but maybe we can I don't I I mean when I built my house you know I had to use the town's expert to tell me what was safe or unsafe even if I disagree with it I had to do it can we force to why does it Sayes no she would never just that she's evaluating the application how she would assess the fee so that's a question for so I'll try to put it in there but as long as he said it's okay if he says it's not and then hold on there was another thing what we just talked about Hazard tree has to be defined by the LTE or determined by by the LTE LTE only yeah where does it say and then there was another thing about so that I said what was that I lost it remember you say a lot of you said the specific LTE yeah that's this but there was another thing don't what the yeah oh yeah that that I'm done where where do it talk about what no no talk about removing the hazards trees where's that in here well so there's the way they are structured is a definition of with capitalized letters okay and then there's the way those are treated wait so where do okay and then where does it say where you're not paying for so it says if it's a hazard tree you don't have to do the replacement stuff but Christy made a good point we're going to add still pay the application fee right okay Hazard trees maybe so should we say Hazard trees as um detered determined by the license tree expert under F he's he's going to ask so but I mean that where you could add just but where to catch it is that it for your review Brian anybody else have anything to add comments how do we communicate between now and September so I'm going to clean this up I'll remove all the red that's Now red and put in new stuff with red and I'll send it send it to you you send to me and Christy is there a is there a limit on how long the permit is good for I saw that in one in one ordinance it was good for six months like I would just answer M of course what deadlines on perit we do not for I mean for free removal we do not but I've never seen I haven't seen one so far that they're trying to use one from years past usually it's within the pl a year but then if it gets pushed it's just like the planting season so if they can't do in the spring they don't I don't know do you see that as a a concern if we should it be within a calendar year or sometimes people pull permits and then like takes forever to get their plans and everything approved and then it's like which just the timeline like I don't shouldn't have a duration to it because why would you even if they get to plant more the the trees going to be there or they're going to plant new trees or they're going to pay money maybe it'll be a benam b tree and the tree removal um the under the the application process for the issuance of a tree removal permit applicants shall pay to the Bro be $50 that's for everything that's up front no matter what yes because that's that's bural resources used process the application enforce the application we want we want that we want it processed and we want it enforced that goes that money's not going to shap otherwise the town will lose money I just wondered if you wanted to add that sentence I mean I know it's over here it does say it it does say it it's on the column right no it says um that they pay that to the to the municipality the application fee I don't think the town's going to accidentally give money to the sh they're going to keep it but if they do it's ours I have a question that I should know the answer to so forgive me a when when we're um when someone has to apply for a permit we have a dbh of 2.5 or 6 Ines did that go up from what we original like what the ordinance is now we rep we changed the new tree caliper from 1 in to 2 in based on someone here comment that the three experts say that they should be 2 in not one but that two so the 2 and2 and the 6 in are if it's a street tree or not correct yeah yeah but that's that's standard from the shade tree Federation model statute right so what currently down to I'm certain that I'm going to miss some of these changes so please please read it closely I'll need a collective effort to make sure I catch it all the next iteration yeah the the next Red version I'm sure I'll miss some things my notes are a little right now so your process on leaving here is to edit this I'm going to edit it and send it back to make sure we captured everything and it's true to what the spirit and the the word whatever it's tone in the law the letter of the law um and then I'm going to give it to soble he got a couple things I guess I can let you know if there assume it's okay unless you hear from me's got a problem I'll bring it back and then the goal is to bring it introduc Council September 9th I was going to bring up one point not trying to M anything up but one thing we get a lot of questions about is somebody's trying to give me a free removal application because they're putting in a pool or shed or whatever they're trying to do fine um but our current application has you know a section or a box like are you awaiting zoning approval or something because as of now we don't let them process the tree removal application till they get zoning approval CU like why are we going let take down 10 trees for this pool but you're not even approved for the pool yet um it's like a checks and balance that we do internally that's good sometime like if they check that box but if there's nothing no flag anywhere I'm just so under application process maybe we say something about well great point I was going to say is the permit's not in here so you get to put whatever permit application you want so you can put it on there and I would recommend doing that okay um but do you do you want to say something about has board approval I would rather not I would rather leave it to the staff for the application I feel like you know when you start to get to specific it it causes more it starts to cause problems and it I like General that's like the zoning Bo puts about trees and their stuff like then it's the why because to the point like if the her is done with the caveat that the zoning has to complete as well like if you start putting stuff about zoning and everything else in here then you're going to I mean somebody that runs the Zoning for Council why you you know why you putting my stuff in your ordinance it's just it's it just gets sloppy it's just this is this is like to to the point earlier this is about replacing trees that get cut down and or building up a trust that we can utilize to spend on projects going forward like more complex gets just it doesn't you know I think tonight we did a good job of recognizing some of the things that we want to add but I wouldn't add any other count any other committee's business in this it's my opinion I would just hope that everybody would be trying to protect trees and hoping that I think I think they are Christy will sounds like she'll put it in there yeah in the application of course yeah and I'm happy once this is through introduction I'll start drafting it and take a look I I I just want to Circle back to like the lack of denial here because I like everything's anecdotal and for my own personal thing when we did a renovation I went in for a tree permit I was denied and I changed my plans because I wasn't taking down a tree so it does happen like it it affects decisions people make so I think we should think about that like that a like a permit can be denied for not meaning criteria I I I totally agree I think that there's just um there are always Alternatives I mean not always not always I mean i' literally change my house plans for a tree that's a shame well is it I mean are you happy do you have a nice Shady Tree next to your house now yeah I mean I lot of trees but you know like it just work um yeah this is a hard one um this is something we I mean it is it's a sticking point I don't think we're have the capacity after two hours to to but this is something that we can review going forward in the next year and see if if we really do need a more a stronger denial proces then we can always add that it doesn't sound we have a denial think that's what happens if Sher denies an application do they still come to the council no I think that people again this is a balance between property rights and again I'll say the environmental and the split is a person can take down a tree if it's on their property so there isn't no deny they can take down a tree but the part that satisfies the environmentalist part is they have to either pay money or place the tree so the community is not losing trees that they can take the tree out and again back to the the loophole of all they have to do is say it's a hazard tree and council's going vot yes I can tell you that first hand right but I thought we were putting in language just that if Sherry or if Sherry says that it's not a hazard tree yeah but they could always say it's they could say it's a hazard to me my family my property and even though Sher may not deem it a hazard tree they see it as one to their whatever or they could be someone like me and said oh I didn't think about that I'm I'm not taking what to be clear you're playing English what will happen is if Sherry says it's not a hazard tree if she says it's a hazard tree they can take it down and they don't pay the fee the $500 or replacement right if she doesn't say it's a hazard tree they can still take it down but they got to pay the money or plant a tree so a person can take down a tree on their property but it's only free if it's actually hazardous and they aren't just I'll change that but your point is you didn't appeal it you just didn't did it right yeah I just iied it wasn't a hazard and and we changed our plans right but it's I'm nering that everybody else just says it's going to fall like KS yeah or they say that's where I want my playroom and they don't well I think there's a lot more people in town that are like that than I hope than what we're you know sort of no I mean I think the the real reason that this all is important is not for the nice people that live in our town it is the developers come in and buy it proper and chop it in half cuddle the to has that is really who we're worried about here right we're not worried about the nice people that live here and care about our community and they're addressed there's a higher standard for them the L with five trees that's we have to have this in place to start getting anywhere but that's also where you catch them with a if there's a great big speciment Tre like there's something in town there's a huge Red O and or pin open the property and he wants to cut it down and so he can divide it into two lots and and two houses in so it's not the specimen is just not against it's it's I really see this as as protecting the town from out know people that don't aren't don't have bested interest in our air quality or our storm whatever our tree can't be I me as Chris said at the beginning of this meeting if we get down to these sticking points we're never going to get this past the go line and we're never going to get the funds that we need to help replace the trees in this town so we're we're walking a very fine line here and if we get stuck on these little points which we can review in the in the next you know year six months whatever then we're then we're going into 2025 and it's going to happen even more and we're not going to get the funds to replac so pick your pick your poison well I still say that nobody on this commission or you councilman is are really qualified to write legislation like that I mean this definitely has to be totally reviewed by an attorney right and uh it's a model ordinance written by the New Jersey shap Tre Federation I talked to them lawyers were involved if is compliant with the law it's meant to fit into New Jersey Law and we are going to have so to look at it just to make sure that the edits that we've made I'm not worried about what they gave us to start I'm worried about our edits to make sure that those are compliant but attorney's going to look at it but I don't want the attorney to look at it until we hash out the politics because that's just spending money wasting money right yeah and I mean Bonnie what's your concern with the attorney are are you thinking that the attorney is going to the attorney is not going to add in this last one dou kobat right was the attorney on this this one that you were involed with and he put in all this Soul no Canon Canon sorry so there is stuff in here that is attorney landscape there's the stuff that makes it cumbersome and very lengthy but an attorney deemed it necessary to have in here but it was done by the attorney first not politics first but so I'm just saying that I think there is some things that I don't know that that I mean I don't know how to write a tree ordinance and so it you know nether that's the model Orin right I know I still feel like that there was so much very you know there's just a lot in there and we maybe Miss some things there's a lot in there and we been going for four years I mean you never budged and that would never passed the coun you can always add through the iterative process I mean it just would it was too far towards environmentalist not there wasn't a balance between property rights and environmentalist I think they're both important it has to be a balance right as I said when I came in I've got neighbors who are pissed what do you mean I have to pay to cut down my own trees and I've had I've had um residents come up to me and say I can't believe that you're abing the old ordinance but what I've had residents come to me and say I can't believe you're abandoning the ordinance that you've been pushing through so it's both sides but but we have to find some common ground because otherwise we're just going to keep spinning our Wheels with this for you know beyond 2025 and I really think it's of the utmost importance that we get this to cancel and get it past and you can always review it in the future and I'm sure Mr chairperson here is going to make sure that it's on agenda every other month so we can take look absolutely we're not going to abandon this there will be discussion it'll be a living breathing I this informally St V people is this acceptable to the Shak Tre commission you know the compromis hammered out that it's I think it's you see a couple of heads yes yeah I think we're we're moving in the right direction I would like a much stronger opening page I know you said nobody's going to read it but I think it actually is still important to put people are going to read it when they have to figure out if they can C but I just think that this little silver they spent a lot of time doing this you know whereas you know those whole the whole introduction it's just a very worthwhile page to have while you're doing it you know you're doing for the D for the Department of you know Environmental Protection St I mean there's all these reasons but it's also because we value our trees like I just and I I just think it really should be a tree preservation that should definitely be like a lead we're I don't know we're trying to preserve trees I think that's our job I think you did add he did add well yeah finally yes well yes but this is you know we're still it's a working prior I know but it just it should be a tree protection ordinance right it is right here protection okay I know it's just added by the environmental okay just saying but removal comes first I kind of thing should be you so we Swit do we have the do we can we switch it yes that was just the way it came from the the tree protection prot removal and replacement what would you like it to be called go ahead let's go I think it should be the tree preservation ordinance why don't in our mission saing it's our mission to preserve protect and expand the urban forest or but so preserves and protection just preserve fit in there preservation I know I just um Tre protection preservation put those four words in however you want protection and replacement true protection and replacement I do I want I want the word remove let me make this argument I would Advocate to having the word removal in here because that's what it's about is remove the process for removing people are applying to REM what's that ofua so are you are you not supporting this or are you okay with it I I know it doesn't go far enough you like it does um so you're I I struggle with the fact that this group is now put I don't know just I feel like really a train should be very involved in this and writing it not us but um and I feel like this little silver ordinance they took ours and they I I know I just like the first page I would love to see something close to this in our introduction okay I I would um look at that but I want the group to agree that we need more um I thought a lot about the opening I haven't said this yet but when I think of ordinance it's constrained behavior and determining Behavior it and I I feel like Preamble is a little bit of like lecturing and that that's good stuff but maybe is it not best to be in an ordinance ordinance is talking about where are the boundaries of what to do and a place like the exhibit a would be a great vehicle to do the lecture what are we asses for what is the purpose of a weas because they're usually part of the ordinance right whereas the council realizes you know recognizes that that that that that that whereas storm water management has required that we do this whereas we understand that I will have whereas a resolution that says whereas the tree sh tree commission has looked at this the environmental commission whereas trees are important whereas be part of the resolution that be the thing that that introduces this as the ordinance that goes on the books there aren any ordinances to say whereas whereas is when you're passing something this does but that's but that's what the final product he's saying will look like no he's not he just said heing he's saying this is their ordinance yeah that's that's the way ours would look would have whereas what just said just saying the resolution would so the ordinance goes on the books with as this when it's introduced I think there's a whereas there's a resolution that says I want to pass those EVS okay I don't think so that'll be okay I don't think you read ordinances or excuse me I don't think ordinances in Vari say whereas where where I think they're stra Behavior the whereas basically would justify who's looked at this who's reviewed it why I think people should V for it right and then this is the body this is how you agre behind the warehous page I just you know I understand it's stor water driven but there's just so much more B I'm I'm reading this here I'm reading these three paragraphs and I mean you just well you want more touchy feel I don't like trees play an important role in our community environment economically mature trees may increase property values reduce utility cost by providing shade in the summer and sunlight in the winter additionally trees can provide wind protection privacy noise reduction environmentally trees reduce erosion and flooding trees provide cooling effects natural habitat cleaner air and oxygen trees provide numerous benefits beyond their beauty they are vital to repairing habitats habitats Wildlife energy conservation I mean right okay well but there's three okay so you're just gonna comp like put all that together yes I will yes okay mean going to be in there yeah I wasn't quite sure if you were taking one out or don't well so I this one felt like a duplicate this this uh the one I didn't see it the Preamble I don't know why how I missed it um so I'll I'll put anything that's in that in the red section make sure that all I'm not going to duplicate air quality I'm not going to put it twice I'll put it once okay all right but we'll have another look at it okay so we have a yes I'm not sure a yes A yes you okay with this you don't love it I don't love it but yeah I I okay with it Leah um I don't love it either but uh they're cutting down the trees anyway like that's what we need to remember is that if they get denied they're still getting approved so and we're not getting anything for it right right yes I agree oh yes sorry Chris y nay yes yes say we're like 85% 85% pretty good and nobody nobody's thrilled right thrilled I think that's a good exactly such a good I know it is it means that we people on one side and the other side also are still in the same boat it means it could for Council which means we could actually pass this thing and actually you know do something do something about it yeah just imagine Bonnie being able here sit here a year from now or maybe sure count our money count our money and just being able to take on projects that put trees in the ground be able to do that we can't do anything I mean we just talk in circles every meeting about the things we would like to do and and then it comes down to well well we got about four grand in budget maybe you know it's I think a year you guys are going to be saying not how much money we have that we planted 200 trees yeah that's what's going to be happening that's way better than anything we've been able to do it is a net positive all I think I think like theough pill at sometimes it's tough when you're you're taking down a tree 100 years old to replace it with tree that's 10 years old like they're just not the same that's where the of this I happening anyways problem that's the problem I I think also you know if we have more money from this to plant trees we can use the resources that we get from the town or from the from the burrow to um to focus on educating and trying to people's understanding and education like focus on the education and the appreciation of trees so that you know the residents really just look at it in a different way like you did when you right yeah absolutely that's our job education you're question well hey I I believe in property rights I I really don't like the this this just because you like trees doesn't that you don't appreciate property with I mean like I mean I'm not like I don't want to tell everybody what to do I just think that trees have no rights and they're they got their first and it's our job to protect them right I mean I don't know I feel like that it's it's part of what makes us sound so beautiful is our old trees so I just would like to protect as many as I can I agree I think we can all agree on that yes and I think can agree that when that sheet gets presented a few meetings from now we're going to be able to comat that we're going to be able to offset that and it's not like when and now we can't do anything when this goes through be Mass cutting down of Heritage and speci trees I think most people will be you know they love their trees it may come up a few times a year but it'll be the exception it'll be okay be okay I feel a great obligation to be a steward of the trees I just do I take it very seriously so I sorry it's annoying it's not you're going to be continued to be teased don't worry I can be teased that's why but I think we'll really be in a much better and stronger position in the future if this happens as opposed to being able to just T our thumbs thank you all thank you for your we're looking forward to some project and now we have to move on to proposed new agenda items um the we spoke real quickly about the email you and I saw about the resident on Maple Avenue asking about the community center trees put that on the agenda if everybody agrees for the next meeting discussion um and follow up I think we're probably going to need a of the history on that as well well maybe we can who would be the lay on for that just like when is it time to plant trees Drew is getting back to us on that okay we discuss that the next meeting um and councilman if you would be so kind at the next meeting if we can your Icelandic treat yeah know i' like to hear about that if we could have a little quick rundown at the next meeting if that' be all right sure anybody else new agenda I did want I did want to go back and circle back to the suggestion that um somebody raised their hand to look into grants for to remove invasives just you know think about it over the next couple weeks somebody wants a project or maybe your new money could also help SP York did not join us he said he was introduce himself ofing to meet him I've heard such great things good yeah yeah is Sher SP gonna be at the September 9th meeting uh she should be that's good I had thought that then you guys like the council can ask and comment she's the she'd know how to answer that any other proposed new agenda items we still do have items we still have to F this before we can all leave and we're packing up our bags to get this school this bendal Hall report I don't even know where I got this from um it was the Drew from Sher analyzing trees at um ball they a whole bunch of inv basic and like they're going to start restoration they're going to do the Ada work and then they're going to start doing restoration work um but this would be a great place to possibly plant some new trees once they get a lot of them bases it's a lot of Norway Maple in there and there's a ton of Ivy too but anyway let's pass the ordinates get someone F new agenda items none more zero more all right public participation Madam Secretary do we have any if anyone on Zoom has any questions please use the feature there are no public comments all right motion to adjourn second good work everybody good meeting thanks that inventory is so amazing