##VIDEO ID:bWN1iUrCLkM## [Music] good afternoon and welcome to the November 21st meeting of the bou Conservation Commission this meeting is a regulations and policies type meeting this meeting is being held independent of our regular Wednesday night meetings and held solely for the purpose of lost my place regulation policy review no hearings are included but you are voting orders of can I finish what I was sure you know wrote down here okay sorry so our goal is to clarify certain regul ation policies and or create new regulations for issues previously ambiguous please note this is just one part of the regulatory process nothing becomes official until Miss berson says so until it's finalized by the commission based on these public meetings and subsequently approved at town meeting we encourage public participation and welcome input but encourage you to stay on topic the chair reserves the right to stop any comment that is disparaging or inconsequential to the hearing we also will have on occasion other business in the case of today we will be um voting on some order of conditions from last meeting because we didn't have a meeting this week because of now meeting or next week because of Thanksgiving so um and other business is always that fun thing that I get to throw in because I can all right so you put minutes on here I guess Lori did so that's fine so an amendment to my other business we're also going to vote minutes occasionally appar so all right so vote minutes October 17 2024 I'll make a motion of um approve the minutes of that meeting um with any potential changes emerging out of discussion today second O'Brien all right we have a motion in a second to accept the minutes of October 17 questions or comments all right we're voting Courtney I Betsy kin I Matthews Iain wasn't there absolutely chis go all right it still passes thank you Kristen if you're watching all right so an update to the regulation topics so again we're going to try and get some stuff ironed out but we don't want to have every single meeting for the next six months on one thing so it's probably going to take one or two possibly three meetings but um if you all got the staff notes on our previous discussions um we can probably put a couple of things to rest and again for the record this isn't final final this has to go to town meeting but if we basically agree to this at at a whenever then we're moving forward just a correction it does not need to go to town meeting that's only a bylaw change these are regulations you have home authority to prate your own regulations it does need to go through a public hearing process um it does need to be advertising the paper for 60 days we do need to take public comments and after public comment we are free to adop the regulations but I want to drop the regulations as a whole unless we decide we've gotten enough things ired out and then we can do them in kind of like groupings okay so that's all I really wanted to clarify was that even if we voted today I'm just going to give an example if we accept what we have about sheds this doesn't mean it changes the regulations today it just means that we're accepting what we've come up with correct to be to to and towards the end and if we decide that maybe in mid February or March you've you've decided on enough uh items we can have another public meeting advertise what you know we want to PR hold that public meeting and then we can put it in the paper yeah I mean we have we have a lot of flexibility um so and this is just what going to take us a while to kind of get into a groove on how to do this yeah okay I I just want to be clear we're not every single one of these meetings we're going to talk about sheds no got at some point we're going to call it done hopefully put to B today so first up update regulation topics first thing is fire pits and sheds in an a Zone to a resource area um so I don't know if you had a chance to look at the staff notes um and this is the staff notes are just a recap of what we did last week um you know we talked about a square foot maximum size we talked briefly about restricting the use because a lot of these uh accessor a lot of these sheds are turned turning into accessory structures like bunk houses and you know little TV spaces out you know yeah and sheeds man whatever you yeah um so I'm just trying to find a PC where to say that um nonh habitable space yeah so the more and this was what we came up with the more we talked about it if we're going to mitigate for sheds what's the difference between storing a lawn mower or a couch and a TV in there like we we we we didn't want to make it too restrictive because one it's very difficult to enforce the agents aren't going to be going and peeking into the windows of these sheds and to the structure is what we're mitigating for what they use the interior of that structure for I really don't think it matters as far as an impact to the resource but I think it's important that we put in there that the only restriction or or the key restriction is that it's non-habitable yeah so we're not accepting that it can be um well habitable can't be conditions somebody could put their bunk in it instead of our business what's what takes place in their shed our habitable what does habitable mean you can't use it as like a you can't have electricity you can't have can't sleep in it can't be conditioned it can't be it can't be used as a guest house well a guest house I'm assuming would need Plumbing so it's like a tent I mean you'd allow somebody to put a tent in their backyard and sleep in it why not in an empty shed I just say we don't say anything about it none of our business we're just worried about the impervious surface in those 200 sare fet okay and that's Jamie that's what we were grappling with last week it's like we said okay utility sheds only blah blah blah and then we're like thinking to ourselves but what what's the difference if you're okay you know somebody's using it they want electricity because they're tinkering in a workshop versus you know sitting on a couch watching TV versus you know having some light to get their snowblower at night really what does it matters like we're looking at the impact to the resource area is once the structure is there that's the impact as long as they're mitigating for the structure yeah I don't know that was just our discussion internally that's why we put the staff notes and we put it out there for you to discuss it's like we look at these old just shot me down we we look at these old um orders of conditions from like the 90s where the board used to condition no habitable space above a garage why if if it was to limit the septic system they would have to go to the Board of Health and come back to the concom for an increase our perview then yeah it's beyond our purview is is what we eventually came up with again this is just what we internally were as far as staff goes grappling with like we're not how do we know what's in that thing unless they put glass windows all over you we beat that on all yeah M I was just going to she stole my fund that you get other boards uh departments zoning about habitable state of health about bedrooms so they they will their job is to enforce that told you that was a bad idea all right so we do think they should be mitigated for we do think there should be a square foot maximum size um board uh Board of Health excuse me building does submit does have like this little green cheat sheet that alerts people that when they are going to construct a shed that they need to come talk to us in historic so a lot of times we get the excuse oh I I didn't know so building came up with this I have a comment on that I have so many people come to me they only hear they only hear what they want to hear they go to the building department and the in the the window says you don't need a permit for a shed if it's under this size right but don't forget you got to you might want to check with historic they stop listening when it says we don't need a permit and and then you guys find out about the shed and then they're like in trouble because they don't want to hear it so that's on them that's all I'm saying that that little pamphlet I hand those out all the time because people don't want to they think they're 200 yeah but you still have to go to Conservation Commission or or historic or historic so they want to U construct a thing that exceeds 200 square feet a they have to get a permit and B they would have to submit a notice intent which we may or may not approve correct well Courtney Courtney they're going to have to permit the shed okay and the shed may require notice because if they're in an a Zone to let's say a Salt March in a grassed area they're going to owe you 300 uh 600 square F feet of mitigation which exceeds the allow mitigation under an RDA they still have to come to this board for any shed yeah okay just to make that to come to you for 250 foot shed you'd point to the regulation and say do it do it yeah so um another thing so we had um I just threw a definition together we can talk about it if you want these everything in red is just draft um so those were the definition the the sections of the regulations that needed to be changed um one of the things we talked about was u in a vzone that if they wanted to put that shed there that is going to count towards that 200 square foot in E Zone I don't need to wrench in this definition the definition sounds fine but do we have a definition of structure I think that's where I was going over hang on there's a definition of structure I believe that hasn't been I don't think this board has dealt with it but in the past that's come up as an issue structure under zoning this isn't our regulation no this is zoning no no I want to know what the definition is of our regulation I don't believe we have one that well we probably should okay we can come up with a definition for structure good Lu with that I assume there no difference between that definition and the one and the other we don't have a definition of structure yeah I'm just saying if you're going to use structure in this definition of shed how about you just say shed shall not exceed yeah don't even call it don't even call it a it's even better CU all we're trying to do is allow a sh so let's not get into structure so I mean our permit doesn't supersede anybody else's permitting requirements so just because we approve something doesn't mean they get approved by zoning or El so it's the same even for this the only thing I would suggest maybe we put a blurb in there that it still has to comply to you know zoning and build you know well that would be true of all the stuff we're working on yeah so so at the community I mean that's already in there in the I don't know which regulation but it says you have to get permits you have to apply for any of the other permits that you might need okay yeah yeah yeah we just have to get them if see um that paper you had about the sheds from the building department there's something in there about zoning and right we have to see if there's something in there about conservation zoning issues conservation any historic conservation historic it should be noted that although a shed may not be large enough to require a building permit the homeowner should confirm whether or not the property falls within historic or conservation districts and requires an application prior to and that's the step that I think gets skipped when they do it verbally I'm not throwing them under the bus I'm just saying that that you know if somebody walks up says hey can I build 150t shed they'll say yeah we don't need apartment the other because you're standing in front of the building department when you apply for a building permit all the other departments get referred so if they didn't get in order of conditions these guys are going to put the brakes on it that falls apart on the shed because they're not applying for a building permit if it's under 200 square fet right which is it's just one of these things we're going we do the best we can and we just capture it on the other AD so you going to change it to definition shed shall not exceed 200 square ft are we all okay with 200 square F feet y yeah fine and if that's in an a Zone if that's in a velocity Zone that takes up that b yeah and I think I listed that if you look at I you did yeah the um the change in the definitions where it where we got tripped up the um no I'm talking about just in the buffer zone RS where we got tripped up we started um characterizing sheds as accessory structures we changed that regulation to say expansion of primary structures such a house addition of accessory structures with the exception of a shed as defined in FW 10.0 in zone a must not move closer so that would take care of um the example and the one I think about all the time was Mike's client off at antler chores yeah yeah and we don't have a definition of structure even though we've referenced it well I just I just Struck it let's not go that down thatout if we don't need to no because the definition of structure and Zoning is quite elaborate and includes Sports courts and everything else so why don't we just sh shall not exceed y yep and you have a mitigation at 3 to one and if it was an a be Zone be two to one correct yeah and that's why I saying if they're mitigating for it really what do we care what the uses right okay so what was the other piece the mitigation the size whates okay is everybody okay with the definition yeah and the only other thing used to store materials why don't we just strike that I mean if it's not storing materials what if it's just a I don't know that again or keep it in there I don't care it doesn't matter to me this is all got to go from again we're just doing the 200 square feet and what its impact is as the footprint and yeah right that that's what's our that's our charge one one question that comes to mind when we're uh we have a limit on expansion of an existing structure that can't exceed 200t I believe it's velocity zone is that a cumulative thing in other words that's part of okay I did I put so if you look at number where is that number six under that first one so oh okay yeah I I I added some draft language for proposed uh red revisions and that's in red and if you look at the one for the velocity Zone which is number six the cumulative size of all additions to the structure since and any shed as defined by fw4 since the effective date of 1998 which is when that regulation first appeared does not exceed 200 square F feet so the shed is included it's a bite of the Apple it's a bite of the apple as you guys like to say and we'll go over these again and if we have any clarifying comments that we have to we'll bring it up at the next meeting okay for purposes today we're basically this is it except for what other clarification yeah and like I said when we get to a point where we think we have enough accomplished and we want to roll out our first stab at reg revisions we'll advertise it again make it official public meeting to talk about these changes advertise it in the paper okay and go from there all right yeah and just so everybody realizes because a bunch of us have gone through this before you want to get to the we want to get to the point where accumulate most of these because then it goes up to Mike Palmer and he prints it and there'll be a new set of regulations that come out okay so we may as well get as many clean it up as much as possible yeah and we want to do it like if we want any other if we're going to be making these reg revisions to the buffer zone regulations we want to make sure that we do all our buffer zone revisions um right before we send it up so we're not revising the buffer the buffer zone resource area buffer rigs more than once you did a really good job where you I mean you we might not have all of them but you said this is going to affect this regulation and that regulation that was Alissa you can thank her for your staff notes I just added the red stuff and some other little notes okay fire pets didn't didn't my definition of fire pit literally came from Google um we can change it this next one down again allowing a a square foot maximum size um and all I think I missed the last one um from your conversation sheds you can't remove natural regation it has to be in an already cleared area okay again with fire pits situated in an already cleared area you're M you're mitigating at your normal rate of either 3:1 or 2: one depending in if you're in Zone A or B we grappled with this one as well so all we want to you know do you want to restrict the area of the fire pit to a peria surface such as Sand Shell crushed stoned and on an inferious surface like whitly patio do you care well it be the same yeah you're still miting so it could be a non-appropriate surface if you're got Yeah well yeah as long as it's mitigation yeah yeah yeah so now we're going down the slippery slope of patios and how are we going to treat patios gets removed yeah to Pao we don't want which was one of Tim's points in the a Zone in the a Zone but if we're going to allow this you had a project that had that you have all these problems from your that's why he came today so and and and so you know we had a great discussion last time but when we kind of sat together and started going through it from a staff perspective we're like okay what does it matter if it's gravel or pavers or wet laid but then at one point does it become a patio I think in the a Zone it should be you can have a nice area around that's still perious perious you want to leave as per do you want to say sand shall Crush Stone because then you're going to get into the point where you're going to get these dry laid patios where people are saying they're perious and this one's going to go off on dry laid patios um no um but so I mean these are these are the things that we're running into in the field and we're just bringing it to your attention like how do you want us to handle this see it's that slippery slope that so I've seen them in people's yards that are just the you know Home Depot cylinder with thater on Deck chairs around it on lawn like they don't they don't there's nothing yeah so and we've seen them with sitting walls and patios and marble and gas pipes and pizza ovens and pizza ovens and so if somebody just had the fire I guess it's Case by case like a fire just the the cylinder that's this big with six ader deck chairs do they have to mitigate because the the fire fits there that they take away in the I mean some of these things are like just a little some people yeah just put it on their logs and put it in their sh they goo or something there stainless steel and they just a little cylinder oh some people just have it looks like a little tub yeah there those St one sec um I thought the the intent of creating this was for a fire pit area that isn't just a casual throw the burn barrel down and grab a chair I thought was something more where people because we've had a bunch of applications where people want to keep a well a fire pit amazing with stone around it we're just telling you what eventually is going to happen because we've seen it in the field Footprints already there Footprints there we just want to we don't want it as a fire pit anymore we just want a dry laid patio correct now what do you do with the dry why can't you come and say hey Mike I want a dryl patio would you put together what are you going to tell well what if you had a pool and you said I'm going to build a fire pit next to my pool and then you decided you didn't want the fire pit anymore but whatever that surface was suddenly is a patio next to that's what I'm might be too variability it's justor it goes away then can somebody come in for just a patio that's the question that's the question because we've been stopping people because if they're moving closer to the resource area we're we're treating patios like accessory structures and we're not allowing because they're not they're moving closer in zone a we're just telling you again from a staff point of view where the where those those little hiccups are yeah it would be a lot easier for us if you didn't point out [Laughter] the we're just letting you know what we see in the field that's all um going forward no no stop okay Courtney so um I don't think it's unreasonable for for us to restrict the size of a of a a fire pit and whatever can be allowed as Stone around it in other words if you have a fire pin it's going to burn hot so you want to have something around it as a base so I know that we had a case that came in was three feet and you know you put five feet as make a five foot circle in diameter that you can fill up with stone sit this thing on it Case Closed if they want to put their head on chairs out it's on the lawn there's no you don't you know now they still have to mitigate for that five because that five feet though it's technically perious isn't sustaining anything you mitigate for that but you don't allow allow them to now expand that and have um patio where they put the chairs you can have the lawn where they put the chairs but no patio so why are you going to allow me to have 200 foot sh same issue what if they just take everything away patio or or a fire pit area yeah they don't use argument is if you allow it you're going to get more mitigation so what's the tradeoff for the environment I mean I I try to look at these things as what effect how is this going to improve the environment getting rid of 200 square feet of lawn next to a pool that could become a fire pit or a patio and then getting 600 square feet or 200 square feet or 400 square F feet of mitigation is a wind versus is a wi and I think our is to make it the environment better not be punitive and saying oh you can't have a patio it's moving closer or a fire pit because it's moving closer I'd rather see the two or 600 square feet of mitigation to improve the environment so so do we group it as fire pit sheds patios well let's get to the I haven't let's hold off on patios because I don't want to get too deep we might not be able to put this one to bed today but just going forward again a a a proposed definition with a proposed square footage um I just threw that out there 150 square feet I didn't really know how much room you need for a fire pit really not my thing that's pretty big is that pretty big Mike 10 by 15 I mean if you're gonna if but if you're putting a couple of and chairs and you need to have a some sort of distance so you're not burning your eyebrows off you know you know take a couple little tables so you can put your beer on it yeah I mean in your cooler but not tonight too wet tonight anyway and then I went on and no burn warning yeah and then I just went on to the revision to a regulation that it would affect um so for consistency with the 200 sare feet this would almost be the bite of the Apple again so just say you put the 200 foot patio out there that's your 200 square feet and then you just keep it all 200 and it's easy to keep your numbers of you know two you know the mitigation is 600 square feet in the B Zone x amount you know a Zone you know I don't know just trying to keep no I agree with that I agree you're saying all three things either shed or fire pit or patio can exceed 200 square feet in the a Zone in the a Zone and B Zone well how Okay so think about it this by guys how close in that a zone are you going to allow these things because we have some properties that back up onto marshes all the time that are lawn down to the marsh right so just think they 200 square feet of a patio for a fire pit then we get we get a buffer now and it's not lawn right down to the to the marsh which is actually an improvement I don't know if they put the if they put the mitigation or if I'm G to pick on mik because it's here Tim was here I'd be picking on Tim Tom was here be picking on Tom what if Mike says oh but you know they they'd like some some screening over here from their neighbors now it's turning into just screening and it's not doing anything for the resource like planting supposed to enhance the the thickness of supposed to be the closest to the resource right I mean I would limit I I don't think it I don't particularly think it needs to be everything needs to be 200 it doesn't matter to me but if that's what you guys want no greater than no greater than 200 I mean that's 20 by 10 or that's pretty big right Mike for Five pit area yeah that's a big patio and think you got a patio this is another thing you have to think about you've got a patio at grade right or let's say a fire pit at grade or a patio at grade they're not going to want those mitigation plants right in front of where they're trying to enjoy enjoy the vehicle so these are just I'm just throwing out these little things that we encounter in field so yes in theory it's a great idea until those poor babber are being managed at a height of two feet just something to think about if you're going to if you're going to like if we're going to transition this and I mean this is going to obviously generate more discussion because we're going to lump patios in here now as well you know that's something we did not think about or discuss internally but I'm just throwing these things out is yes in theory Mory it's great we' get the extra buffer until it grows Bas can get pretty big then you could put your patio in the in the mitigation area Mr I was going to say you have a provision on in your current rigs about uh work within um the a Zone not moving than the present primary structure for most of the Wetland resources but you have a cutout for uh salt marsh 25 ft right no closure than so youve made an example of like a lot of properties from way back in the day before we had rules have Lawns almost on the salt Marshals you could maybe put something in that says those kind of things like patios and fire fire pitel patios more more than some distance like 25 you have for salt marsh right yeah so you'd still have a buffer between it and the salt marsh you couldn't like build your patio like literally three feet from the Sal Marsh you know right that's a that's a good point Courtney so I'm still hung up on my 5ot diameter that's 19.6 Square ft for those of you well for the record and I think that's important because we we don't want to use the magic number 200 square fet all time that would give you a hell of a big surface for your if somebody wants to plant a 3ot diameter thing and with a little suround it's six it's six it's 19.6 time three I just threw something in there if someone wants to take a stab at looking at that definition literally it came from Google um except for the fire pit area and Associated seating shall not exceed 150 square ft I mean if you guys want to take a stab at it and and do something else that's fine I'm just I just threw out there for purposes of discussion I said I would come up with a definition I did um good for consist can I can address what Courtney just said I I just think it becomes a whole different kettle of fish when you start saying okay you're gonna have perious papers and seating walls and all that stuff but if it's a simple three foot diameter thing that either you bought in a store and has five feet of gravel around it and the rest of its lawn that 5T if 19 square feet needs to be mitigated for that's not what these things are Courtney the other stuff they got to then theyd have to go in front of us it counts against them on the consistent and it can be remember we had a project to bring up sareet huh they can do whatever want with this I don't think we should be telling what to do what I'm trying to say I know we had a project recently well within the last year they had a shed and a little patio next to it in the azone they had like two Adder on back chairs so I don't remember the exact dimensions but I bet it was under 200 square fet just coincidentally so all I'm saying is if somebody wants to do a small patio and a small shed and it doesn't exceed the 200 that's what we're looking for is total not each yeah because we don't allow these secondary right now secondary structures in the a Zone I understand and now we're saying we'll allow up to 200 square F feet and it can be you have these things to choose from right that's why I'm saying the 200 is is UN yeah a consistent number like if you did a circle foro I think that's radius of 10 ft means diameter of 20 that's that's pretty much2 yeah yeah CU I had done one at 15 diameter because I have a 5 foot fire pit and I about five feet of space around it for chairs and that's 176 177 Square fet so that that was my like starting point how you know seems reasonable some people will tell you they need 600 square fet now you're getting outdoor kitchens and all this stuff so well we're going to be having that as a discussion topic um so so to Betsy's point the 200 would be whatever choices to what you want to put 200 but that's it you can have a shed or a fire pit or a patio but you can't have one of each or a little bit of each okay then they can't have 200 that's it the 200 the B the apple is 200 in the velocity Zone in the velocity Zone yeah well what about on a regular property not in a V Zone well still 200 we're limiting it 200 you're limiting any sort of accessory use to 200 correct so if we're going to use the term accessory use we're going to have to come up with a definition of accessory use the a Zone oh so the A and zone am I just follow you no our understanding was let's say you're not in a V zone or an A Zone only only in a Zone you limit it only in an a Zone if it's in the B Zone they can have a fire pit and a shed and as long as they mitigate longate but only in an a Zone okay only a Zone Max of accessory so when I quickly looked at the definition of accessory structure in in um in zoning it included Sports courts patios things like that so let me take another stab at at doing this okay and I'll bring it back we're not going to get these things settled in one or two meetings but we won't be going six meetings talking about that like let me take now we're going into a different direction that we talked about last week which is good it's healthy it's productive um well fire fits are sort of the the new thing fire pits outdoor kitchens and plunge pools as the new things plunge pools plunge pools little tiny pools okay that's what we're hearing from the Consulting community basically a septic tank very expensive sep tank not hot tub though no they're they're like little pools see and then then you have that you're GNA have you're going to have areas where people are going to want to put hot tubs so exess use hot tub do hot tub hot tub Sports Court patio fire pet sh town okay all right let me take a stab at this for the next time perfect but I think this was this was a good discussion anything no I mean again we are just reporting what we're seeing in the field and things that sometimes you know it sounds great when we say it but in reality it just doesn't the biggest piece of all of this is whatever we're allowed with going to require mitigation oh absolutely and if they can't fit the for the resource are and we always say the way we the way we originally structured these Rags was if you can't fit the mitigation then your project needs to be reduced because it's too much impact on the resource area okay all right I will you say you might not I might have to add a r might need all that space But this might not be the right block yeah I'm going to have to I'm going to have to look at the buffer zone regulations and see how I put this in it's going to take some thought yeah thought but uh let me take stab for December and I'll get back to you December January okay next one Jamie was pervious surfaces that do not support vegetation in a b zone so that kind of gets grouped in no yeah so I want to kind of do all of the buffer zone RS and we may bring some more items that we have with the buffer zone RS to you in the next couple of months so we can get that all done at once but this was easy we talked about this last week losing a lot by not requiring um peria surface that does not support natural vegetation such as gravel areas Stone areas shell areas dry laid patios because they're perious um without mitigation in the B zone right but I'm saying wouldn't that be grouped into the previous that we were just discussing we could this it well this is yeah and yeah it is it is what what we were just discussing that's what I'm saying yeah okay so I'm sorry but again these notes were written before this past discussion so okay you're gonna put it back in the mix and think about it well no be no because the last discussion's focused on 200 square feet of some sort of and I'm just throwing this out there just for tonight accessory use in the a zone that we restricted to 200 in the a zone right okay this is we're talking about B Zone B Zone perious surfaces that do not support natural vegetation in a b zone are not currently being mitigated for and I feel that it should be because we're just losing too much buffer zone for example so it's in aone it should be two to one yes any gravel in azone simple that's what I think okay I'm GNA agree with Jen but I would say to you that I I forever never interpreted that I always mitigated for increases in the B Zone I I some other engineer found that now everyone's jumped on the hand wagon of it but I think I think well I mean you're tempted to um you might be seeing some applications in the near future with that but because it's the way it's written I don't think that was your intention it was not it was not the intention it it was oversight so I'm fixing that oversight yeah and I'm okay that's why I would like to like get all the buffer zone things done like first so I can get the buffer zone RS at least starting in maybe March or something put in something pass them and it doesn't have to go into the new book but at least if we could adopt them yeah by March well it would go into a new book and we're do going to have other things and it's fine um so we're just seeing that and we just want to close that blue pole okay and that would be that's how and again um and bety if you could take a look at these crafted them just um um you know I just added any crease it's like so the red when I look at the revision change the red is what I've either added or deleted um if it's struck through I'm deleting it if it's red I'm adding it so okay you and I and Alissa had talked about this a year ago okay um also I'm going to bring to the board probably at a future meeting there is this um idea interpretation that if the complete a zone is fully vegetated then the B Zone can can be completely cleared that's now what we're seeing is that the the a zone is completely vegetated that the B Zone almost by right can be completely cleared and I don't think that was the intent of the regulation as well so Jen Jen called me the other day maybe yesterday and mentioned this and I said well remember remember we had just passed the rights of Nature and we had that project out on and there like four one acre lots by Bourne Pond and the people wanted to basically clearcut the be but delineate where the a was and I mentioned well you know if this is a Grace of nature town and you're cutting all those trees and couldn't you designate a building envelope and save some of the big trees in the be Zone and he goes yeah I'm willing to do that and so Jen went out and they saved all the hardwoods all the hardwoods so like to see something like that so I don't know maybe um we can I I'll bring that to you at like I said it's it's part of the buffer zone rig so maybe in January we can talk about it but it's this idea that is the and Mike how do you interpret it that's a tough one but I here's how I there's different ways to look at it so I've done a few projects before you where you have a pristine undeveloped lot I remember one on Meadow Neck Road and you had a Coastal Bank AC salt marsh that the def the defining uh no disturbance Zone a was top of Coastal Bank because 50 fet from the top of the bank was more restricted than 100 feet from the Sol Marsh and the people of course want to get as close to the water as they can so the no disturbance Zone a was 50 ft from the top of the Coastal Bank which probably got you like 130 ft from the S Mar or something I don't even know so you were by default meeting the 100 foot no disturbance and it was wood Woodland so you put your limit of work right at the 50 Foot from the top of the bank and then you and then you have your no structure 10 ft that you can't build less than 10 feet from the limit of work so the house ends up 60 ft from the top of the Coastal Bank um I feel like that was the intent because the the a zone is completely intact which is the zone that your mitigation regulations try to get applicants with degraded a zones to enhance with mitigation to try to get back the altered parts of the azone does that make sense the whole buffer zone is important so we're not saying you couldn't that I'm just suggesting you identify where your building envelope is yeah and then save important vegetation that's in the vzone especially trees yeah a lot of times though if it's like all wooded something's got to give you know you don't have to clearcut the whole thing no I'm not saying clearcut the whole thing but um that that's what I'm the extreme of it what I'm Ming towards well I mean that's what's done all over town you know yeah it makes developing easier for the developer I mean like I remember when you had a moon Penny we put that living work right on that aone yes 10 feet had to survey the trees within 25 feet of that and then the B buffer zone was basically clear cut wiped out lawn house fire pit shed depends on the size of the lot too some of the lots are only like a half acre and by the time put a house in a little yard you've cleared almost the entire thesea if you got three acres somewhere you only do no one wants to maintain all of that you wouldn't clear cut all that well some people do yeah they do that's a tough one there is there is some language in here that says and I'm paraphrasing it is the goal of the this regulation to um fully uh reclaim the no disturbance Zone a where possible or uh mitigation can never exceed that which would completely fill the entire azone this words in here something like but I mean that's what first came with kind of the idea of a no disturbance buffer but the whole buffer is important the B buff is important too oh yeah yeah right but if the B buff is important and you put rules in about not altering that you basically all projects are going to be outside your jurisdiction completely you know what I mean because you'll be more than 100 feet from every resource area you know if you're 100t from if you're 100t from a top of a Coastal Bank with all your work you're going to be outside your jurisdiction oh well eventually you'll be outside but if you're going to work in the B zone no you can work in a b Zone if you have an undisturbed lot you can work in the B Zone but you don't really have to clearcut it right that's not the interpretation out there right now well I know that's yeah what we so there's a lot of discretion there between fully clear cutting and creating just like 10 feet around the house like where do you cross the line that you're not you're violating Nature's rights you know I mean when when do you cross that line we used to have the orange dbh trees had to be in the lot you know specimen trees remember we ask people to protect them you know this Oak over here you know so you know even though it was in the bee would make it would have them put fence around it so it would be protected um I mean those those were sort of the case by case on beautiful wooded Lots with big hardboards on them you know could you just tweak your house move it over 10 feet instead of taking down these two trees and I mean most of the time everybody I mean a lot of people work with us on that yeah but I don't know it's a tough one that's that's going to be hard each Case by casee basis well it will be it depends on what you're building but you're always worried about setting a precedent too because Jen's always worried about well if we let Mike do it he's going to remember in the next you have remembered now we know you were the slowest to catch on to this one shouldn't have admitted it iile a bunch of amendments you know what we'll bring we'll bring some we'll bring some talking points for other parts of the resource area buffer RS to the next one or two meetings we'll bring some talking points so we can kind of flush this discussion out more do that work for you Jamie does that work for you Jamie yes okay just so we can stay on kind of Point here we going through this and then we can bring up other other sections of the buffer zone regulations that we find either concerning problematic something like that like Alyssa just brought up one we recently saw one where because it says you know you can you must fill Zone a on the lot we recently had one on man not Road where the Zone a was just completely it was non-existent because there was a house a road and then a little bit of Zone a on the subject property and even though they were increasing the footprint of the structure and everything like that they only had to mitigate a tiny little bit because that was the only Zone a on that particular lot but the Zone a really was non-existent because we had a road another house and then the resource area corner of grand and Mar Vista Andro so just something to think about we're just saying that you know we may not be we may just want to look at that I mean there's a difference between a quarter acre lot and a 10 acre lot correct and this is what we kind of grapple with next one plant spacing and M uh mitigation and restoration we gave you thing we'd still like to hear we'd still like to hear from some of the the designers so we'll just put this on another one and see if we can't get some of the uh landscape professionals here for another meeting to talk more about plant spacing I think three feet as we discussed is entirely too tight but we can't require we have to make it easy enough for your typical homeowner who's just doing kind of like a small addition to be able to to put in their mitigation without having to hire a Prof restoration or design firm it's just you know the engineers put a little bubble on the plan this is where your mitigation goes we need to make it easy for the landscape uh the property owner who may want to do it themselves or hire just a local Landscape Company without hiring a ecological restoration firm to design a mation area for the first small project that's just that's putting too much on the homeowner um but at the same time we want to make it so the plant survive um so as again we'd still like to have a few more discussions with some of the landscape professionals out before we come back and say you still have to have a base yeah we still have to have a base still have something to start with so like we talked about last time was you know if we keep the three feet on Center as a Baseline and then Mike you come in and argue that you know we're going to use XYZ and it should be four for on Center or I mean I don't think we've ever had a problem with with when people come in and do that I mean we really only had one problem with one person who demanded but I still think three feet is tight I mean as a so you want to change the base just to fouret a base to fouret and it doesn't even require reg change it's basically written into your orders of conditions so we change it to four feet and then if if there's certain species that require more than they can argue to that point yeah right absolutely which we've seen very recently that we can Implement immediately one but one it was 5 foot a couple yeah so that's easy yeah that's done it also it also honestly really depends on the location of the the plant how the plant is maintained um you know from personal experience I had an Arrowwood in my backyard just over in a little planting bed left alone the thing was enormous is twice the size of dawn taller than Dawn everything it was big it was huge it was beautiful but but that now you can create the opposite problem where if you would say four foot on Center and they put one gallon whatever that only grows to two feet yeah so yeah so but again I left it alone it was maintained over there you know it wasn't in a buer being cut or anything else it was just allowed to do its thing if it's allowed to grow as as your order condition say to its full and mature form that is the form it's going to take I have yet to see one probably out in the field like the one I saw in my yard we had a project a few years ago prior to co and some I don't think it was you but somebody came in and said can we can we do something about these buffer plants and it was off m road and I don't know what the plants were at the edge of the lawn but they were like 12 feet tall and solid all the way across so we allowed them to so why don't we and what Tim have to say yeah why don't we just start implementing four feet and see where we go from there we're going to have to do a gallon size because I do not want to see one gallon containers four feet on Center because as my said this is your one gallon container that's your plan basically be Ro be Ro well that's what you're going to get if you start with four feet okay no no no four feet and a gallon we put a gallon SI gallon or three gallon two to three gallon the two the gallon size in the spacing is specified in your orders of conditions so we can we can modify the the gallon size we can modify the spacing without a rag change so four feet two to three gallon okay so is that where we're yeah we're leaving that full foot on Center two to three gallon right unless people want to come in and argue for more right right okay for larger okay prop all right next up V Zone enclosure square feet or percentage of footprint for new construction I'm getting over there okay so um we were unable to talk to building so a couple of developments with this one talk to Shannon HS from the count County she's a deputy director and the flood plane specialist for the cape C Cooperative Extension she is the cape's flood manager like all the towns go to qu sh when we have questions I called her up and asked her how many other Cape towns restrict the enclosures in Visa I said could you put a list together and she goes yes you she goes that list is easy it's you Falmouth is the only one that is restrictive when it comes to enclosures for houses in a Visa great that's a good thing so every other Town allows full Breakaway panel a couple of developments so how did we get with 200 how did we how did we get there no break because we don't allow breakway panels because we don't allow breakway panels probably because and I haven't checked and I don't know I don't know how many other towns have lands subject to Coastal storm Flowage regulations Mike do you know well I know mashby does mashby does and one I don't think does yeah so we have specific regulations for land subject to Coastal storm flow which regulates Construction in an azone and a vzone and in that regulation it says that all construction of vzon shall be on open pilings um we started to allow and like I remember when I first came almost 20 years ago go you didn't allow anything it was strictly a staircase up and since then you know we've been seeing elevators and mudrooms and so you know we have to decide again whether you want a square footage or a percentage um it it's going to be an ongoing discussion um I reached out to the county I have yet to talk to building what I do know is that if and when the state amends the wetlands protection act regulations to add a section for land subject to Coastal storm Flowage as drafted currently drafted it's not been adopted yet and God knows when it's going to be adopted I've been hearing about these regulations for 25 years and I am actually not kidding first heard about these regulations when I worked for horley Whitten 25 years ago um as drafted open pilings only how they're going to handle enclosures at the state level I do not know we cannot be less restrictive than the state we can be because of our home rule Authority we can be more restrictive than the state but we cannot be less restrictive than the state so if we come up with something we add it to our regul and the state finally decides to adopt these regulations as currently drafted which I do think that is going to change because they're not practical the way they are currently drafted I mean that's totally unreasonable what has it you've got to get into the we may have to change our reg again I'm just throwing that out there right but as it stands right now our regulations require open pilings open p correct and no no Breakaway panels no breakway panels and we have been allowing for conversation 200 square feet of enclosure but sometimes up to 300 square feet sorry sometimes up to 300 square fet right but what but our again our Baseline has been 200 so we have to allow something practicality dictates you got to have a Stairway it's reasonable to have it out of the weather elevator if you're going up 12 ft you got to have an elevator correct and it's fair to say they need a little bit storage there correct so now it becomes is 200 you know adequate or should it be more and I had suggested the percentage only because you know I mean it could be up to 200 square feet but most of the houses are bigger than what a percentage you know like I did one overun serve drive was, 1500 square ft for a footprint so 15% if we went that route just for example came out to 227 Square ft so is it simpler to say it's a percentage or is it as simple to say it's 200 and we don't allow I think I think it's better to give just a number yeah because the it's the effect on on the environment okay anything that's there we have a big storm and and the SE pouring through there it's it's going to be jumbl so the more you allow the upside to that is if we do the 200 square feet and now we we're changing to allow to shed that kind of negates the problem we've been having with people saying oh you know we need room to store stuff you know deer I just confused of yeah well that's no but you brought you brought up something we all have to think about that's why the deer that's why you're getting the stairs from everybody would wouldn't the shed be the bite at the Apple that you keep talking about so if you have a shed store your stuff you don't need an enclosure but you're still need elevator well then you can only have 100 foot shed instead of a 200 foot shed because that well if it's if you're just saying you can have 200 square feet you use it any way you want you can put an elevator in and and call it a day or stair away in an elevator and then you get 100 foot sh shed or you only put this you know an elevator and now you have 150 squ is that enough room for for elevator yeah for an elevator in the staircase yeah your 200 square foot comes from the regulation that you're improving a structure without elevating it so don't blend those two things together when you so that 200 square F feet that everybody's fixated on you're right comes from additions in the vzone and not requiring the the structure to go up on pilings that's that Apple that's that bite of the Apple when the when you're taking the entire structure down and you're putting it up on pilings then what are you going to allow don't get fixated on the 200 um the the percentage could be dangerous only if they start adding the the the percent coverage of decks and everything else if you want footprint of enclosed space and not the deck well again that would that would come under definition but but that's that's fine so if we want to do a square footage then that's B the question what's the what's the so I'm going to turn to my Builders and say what is a reasonable square footage to allow for an entryway of case storage and an elevator 200 I mean you know an elevator is square F feet all day long okay so that's what that's that's what I need to know is I don't know how big these elevators are so if an elevator is 100 square feet you're not leaving much St storage that's huge elevator stairway is going to be you know seven or eightt by 10t 10 you know because 12 feet high why don't you guys work it out and then we can yeah next time we can come up with a number why don't we let people work out noodle with it yeah yeah yeah that's fine I'm not saying we have to decide Su from you too I I just I'm about to submit a request for certificate of compliance for one that you guys approved we you allow 300 that's what I'm saying yeah and there's one on I went there and I looked at it and it's the right size um and everything else is open the is Tiny because they they they took the smallest elevator so they had more left over for storage because they really needed storage I opened this they showed me this storage and it's jammed with stuff you know kayaks and stuff like that but also I mean if people have a lawn and they have a driveway they're going to need a lawn mower and a and a snowblower I mean you need there's stuff you need to have I mean a lot of the houses people aren't there in the winter but there are people who are rubbish cans yeah all of this you have to allow for some storage yeah I think 300 is not can you send the footprint of what they have there is it is it Skelly off of Ed we have it okay we have it okay let's um again just think about it I just it's it's not an easy kind of decision to make but it's one we have to decide to give clear guidance to the engineers because right now it's Case by case and the numbers are everywhere and we need to just provide some clear guidance correct Mike yeah because we don't know what to tell them so we go to Jen she doesn't know what to tell them kind of because you're the ultimate approving her so she she tries to advise us but she's always cautious but it's up to the yes it's up to the board and we might have a cracky commissioner some night so we apply we might as well just apply for a th000 square ft and you just beat us up back to 300 well when they put the house up on tilings they've already improved the environment by getting up getting getting the structure out of Visa right so just say it's a 2,000 foot house that now is up in the air we just took 2,000 square feet of structure that was a potential Hazard right out of Harm's Way and out of you know hopefully hopefully yeah that's that's I think the thing how much are we willing to put back in after they it says they they have to have access right corre have stairing elevator so why we just eliminate that give them the stairway in the elevator and just 200 foot they can do whatever they want with it that's what the shed I don't know if anyone else said that but that seems to be just separated given the given the elements that they have to have there let do if they want 100t elevator fine if they want a 10 foot elevator or stairs you know those two things are going to have to be there well they need and then just kind of access to the next four yeah that's what he's saying that's what he said that that you have to give them that yeah so just give them that just 200 S feet for the extra for everything else we just named the patio furniture the garbage the the boats whatever they get 200 square feet makes it simple makes it simple 300 sare feet and that 200 feet is a lot that's a 14 by4 shed yeah but when you're putting in an elevator and then no the elevator's out elevators don't include the elevator in the square footage [Music] El I didn't get that either yeah I'm sorry that's what I missed so I just ran some quick calculations if you um put a stairway in um call it four feet wide you're going to need a run of about 13 feet so that's 13 by4 52 Square ft for the stairs when you walk in the door you're going to want a probably a 4x4 Landing so you now um uh you you take 13 and four is 17 ft now let's say you want to put a 5x5 elevator in there um and that's including the structure or the walls and the you know it's not just the space inside it's not a bank tube so so roughly you'd have to create a a square that or a rectangle that was 10 ft wide by 17 i' I haven't quite gotten to the what oh that's 170 square ft so there's that's what you kind of need I would want to refine that and check it but that's kind of what you need for what we're describing which is a Stairway a landing area and an elevator storage before any Storage storage to that all right well then you got 30 ft left over or you could put a closet you could put well you would depending on how you lay it out you can put a closet in there or you have a separate space in that building where you can put storage well that's what Ron is saying is you take that the utility as independent and then what would allow I mean basically I'm trying to get upstairs I'm not worried about storage yet right and that's so what I'm saying is you're going to need 170 ft give or take minimum yeah I simp West just for Simplicity so yeah SE Coast shes Westy to get up 150 s fet had to go on but they had two sh that's the one Skelly up you let him keep one of the two sheds engine supposed to because that was already there you took one shed away leave yeah let us let us run some numbers because I mean I I had two sheds on my old property the and the smaller of the two and I just asked Don how big it was um I was able to store three patio sets kayaks the grill a deck B box all that all the stuff that was associated with my outdoor patio space was put in that shed how big was it I'm going to ask him I'll find out it was the smaller of the two sheds on my property on my old property so let's do that let's everybody kind of think about what think about it they think they'd want we'll come up with you know a basic elevator footprint and stairway footprint it's in our in from what we've seen out in the field is completely unrealistic to sit there and say you can't have any storage as Mory said you need to store garbage barrels they want to secure kayaks they have patio furniture they have to store in the winter time fire pits um deck boxes snow blowers yeah I mean bices bicycles you need storage if these houses are elevated on 2,000 square fet no more so anyway think about it Guys these aren't easy discussions we're not going to solve them in one or we're being really productive the theory is we have this discussion now so we don't have have a discussion like this during the regular hearing correct right correct okay uh longterm monitoring we just continue to say file an RDA for long-term monitoring I know your issue um we don't issue orders from conditions and perpetu we don't issue coc's um with longterm maintenance and perpetuity because then we just lose track of the projects so you can you can permit a project for three years sometimes five and very rare special instances like the town's comprehensive dredge permit that's a 10year permit um but is it is it illegal to if we gave Mike a permit for a project that has a standard three-year order conditions we can't ask for a well for lack of a better word call it a monitoring report every five years I mean how healthy are the plants or or you know are they still alive um no they can't go beyond the life of the permit so they have extensions or if they want to do followup work which um I'll take for example the projects that um Wilkinson is undertaking over on Great Bay they're filing rdas for continued maintenance on their fiber will array projects if they have to do some by default they're going to give us a report because they're telling us why they want to maintain it correct they want but I think what we're looking for is that if we require somebody to put some mitigation in we want to make sure that it lived longer than just the three years because we're finding projects that are coming back to us under an enforcement order because it was all removed or k or just died off or whatever so there there has to be a mechanism to keep an eye on that I don't know what it is but what's the also go to is or pictures or it's usually a reports both we get pictures we ask for like when they install them to pick kind of when you're doing something like that you know particular pictures are dated in the description of what's going on what went right what went wrong what went right what went wrong how what survival what percentage survival of the plants what's you know been re reinvaded with um invasives percentage of invasives yeah so because you do have that condition that shall be maintained in perpetuity which has no teeth once you get the COC except if you come back to ask for something else for that driving by we driving by okay it's it's difficult R it is but something we can put further thought um vist appr pruning that was interesting thank you for your comments Mory um that's going to be a tough one so we Lori has downloaded um the regs from the different towns reg's guidelines from some other towns we haven't had a chance to kind of fully go through them the problem Mory when you brought up percentage and it was a great idea but the problem is when we go out onto these large prop most of the times when we go out on Vista prunes um especially if they've been historic Vista prunes we don't require like a survey if now you're going on a percentage of a property that's going to require a survey to do a Vista PR so I don't know if that's what the board wants to do um or not it's it's it's an interesting I understand that 25 foot window is a bit restrictive um maybe we could look at widening that window um we can look at the percentage but from staff's perspective it's very difficult to evaluate in the field without a survey so if you wanted to go to percentages we'd be requiring surveys for all Vista prings because we'd have to because we don't know we can't go out there and go okay what's 25% of this 3 Acre parcel and and where are these little pockets of 25% that they want yeah so that is the difficulty in doing a percentage as opposed to where did we come with 25 foot it's been there since I started 20 years ago I think it I think we did that again it was with Rockwell I think we had the 25 foot and that was when we also because that was after Hurricane Bob that we R we rode everything for that's why ours were so restricted because we were all horrified of what happened on surf drive it was like open pilings no more of this and you know so you know no Breakaway walls no rubbish cans I mean it's difficult enough for for these guys to go out and talk to the arborous you know even with a 25 foot vist window we have to go back multiple times because it's not staked it's only two staks whereas it it's the Vista prunes are I know uh nightmare yeah they are they are and we want to make we want to make it easy for the homeowner that just wants a small little thisa window without requiring them to you know get a a survey that may you know who's telling them it's 25 ft now person cutting the stuff right yeah because we don't require a survey no but we go out we measure it we meet with the Arbus we do we have them flag them out you know we try to follow up on it so that could be anything then yeah so if even if you did it percentage it came out to you know 56 feet they still have to measure it out so I don't know it's something you guys can think about I don't know what you want to go with that it wasn't it it wasn't on the my highest priority it's just you know the town taxes everybody for a you people live on the water for a view otherwise they would live in hatchville um so I know my daughter lives there she does she wants a view but she can't afford one um so I I just was thinking you know in my world where I see everybody and what they have some people they don't want to be I have a woman that has seven acres and you can't see the water it's a forest she doesn't care she loves it like that um and then there are other people that you know have a 100 or 200 feet on the water and they would really like to see the water and then when they have everything grow to their natural state they're like well that's rather redundant so you know here we are we you know you you plant whether it's mitigation or restoration and then it grows up to be you know VI burum are 17t tall like the one next to your shed then they go well this you know then they just go cut it anyway I mean that's what they do I mean I'm sorry but that's what they do no and we know that we're not you know we're not living in a bubble so how we help you see it out in the field so anyway let's just skip that one's again it just Wars further discussion we're trying to make I'm trying to make it easy for the agents when they go out in the field so it's very clear to them it's very clear to the property owner it's very clear to the ARs and consistent and consistent but you're not you're not you're never going to be able to be consistent with a property either on Jenkins Pond SEO Shores versus pens ANS Associates yeah you know it's just they're apples and oranges okay but it does it does warrant further thought thought and investigation on hard to see what other towns would do and how they're handling it again it wasn't like screaming at me it was just yeah but it's something that comes up oh one of my favorites drip strips and an A and B I didn't make it on yeah it's not on there all right well we're going to have to put it on there next time we had it your your R hat mark one okay well that's me just jumping the gun so it was on page oh yeah also one of the things we're we're we're experiencing is Vistas over multiple properties does the board want to allow this or not especially if the property so let's say the the most waterfront property already has a Vista do we want to allow an additional Vista across that property for a neighboring property so both of them have to apply but do you want to allow that do you want to allow Vistas over multiple properties for people that aren't currently either taxed or that I'm just going to say I think the assessors would like we do that because then they will be able to tax the people more for a view because they tax for a view but people who who live say upser with it that look out and see the water they're tax for riew that's what I'm saying yeah yeah even if they don't have a f room if they can see the water they're taxed we've recently had a couple in nor fouth the one the big one down on one on road y so it's something to think about about whether or not you want to allow Vistas across multiple properties I me obviously if you did allow it the person whose property it was going to go across would have to give permission correct okay but what if that person already has a Vista I no no I understand what you're saying to cut through the buffer yeah that person might not want another person I mean Mike want might want to vist it through my yard and I might say no well the one on old do remember that was going to end up with two vors on correct that's why I'm bringing that up yeah I'm not agreeing with that I'm just saying if there's a property behind one behind the other this guy applies for a Vista prun this one applies for Vista prune it's up to them to coordinate them together up but not multiple on one property but multiple properties just multiple applications but you can't always get them lined up I mean I might have a Vista prun here but he might live here and want the vist pr out here well I think that's what that's irrelevant either be in the line or you don't get it I think what what the question really is is do we allow it so that the person farthest removed can see the ocean right and so that's a matter of if there's four properties all four of them have to apply for a Vista but it's up to the four of them to coordinate where they line up so that this one back here gets a view and the only one that needs a permit for the VOR is the person on the water it's in our jurisdiction right yeah within jurisdiction right could be two properties well let's assume there's two just just for the conversation then two of them have to apply yeah and one of them's in town so I mean it's it's don't throw it's interesting so I think I think this comes up because I mean we were kind of thrown off guard about the one inquisit which was going over five properties you know it seemed a bit excessive it was what six seven 800 feet away um you know I can see you know somebody across the street from a waterfront property you know talking to their neighbor hey can I open up a little pocket of abuse so I can see the water I can see that but when we were going over five separate properties over like I said six to 800 feet that seemed a bit excessive to us how many of those properties wait a minute we're in jurisdiction one maybe two so those are the two that matter because the other ones other could clear they're outside of jurisdiction that's between the property owners sure they could make their vist of 500 feet wide yeah true so view crust drive back in the 60s when they developed that they had a Vista requirement for every property and the houses were built like this as you went up the road and it was in their restricted in their deed that everybody had to keep that area open so that every single house saw the water unfortunately it was only for 50 years and now it's expired and everybody started to let their you know I'm not going to prun it cost too much or whatever and it's really sad because the view is spectacular and now they've gone got abatements because now they can't see the water so the tax revenue doesn't so there are pluses and minuses oh absolutely yeah okay something to want more discussion and thought just you brought it up last time more you wanted it on we're just telling you you know we want to make it easy for the staff in the field oh I didn't bring up the over overall the other properties I wasn't even thinking that one okay that was you guys thought about that one yeah I tried to forget that one okay um if we're going by the agenda the next thing is vzone 25 foot setback okay so this is something I've been talking with Shannon about and unfortunately our GIS system because we could bring you examples um but it's not really coming up on GIS right now there's something called the limit of moderate wave action yeah action or activity limo so starting in January and correct me if I'm wrong Mike Jamie Courtney starting in January properties within the limo are going to be required to be built to vzone standards properties where any what limit of moderate wave action so what it does it goes vzone and in certain areas there is a limited moderate wave action and then an a Zone in the building code correct there's limits of moderate wave action or activity sometimes in a zones yes so you're out of the vzone you're in but there's still some wavs smaller waves w Building C I mean that's why I always argue that it's 25 ft is fa enough to have the found so so what I'm getting at is when looking at this that limo kind of a lot of times is following our 25 foot setback right it's really difficult for the staff sometimes to kind of guide someone especially if that 25 foot offset is in the middle of their new like the new proposed house it's like well the house has to go up on pilings and and we've been successful in enforcing that but um I don't know I'm just I brought it up in 2014 when FEMA changed I asked the board if he wanted to get rid of the 25 foot offset the board said no um I'm just bringing this to your attention that starting in January properties in an a Zone but also fall in this limit of moderate wave activity are going to have to be built to vzone standards well it is so I don't have a map to show you what it is because our GIS it's coming up really wonky on our GIS right now one thing I I wanted changed and we basically we did we had conformed with this is that if if you have a Coastal Bank the the um the visone hits partway up the Coastal Bank and beyond that it really doesn't make sense to have a found dzone and in fact you don't it goes from a dzone to an xzone so if there's an xzone we don't count the alalon Theo and basic it's not written in the breads that way so we can add well I know I mentioned that should change that several years ago but then because we never we we just did that as opposed to V zones that then have a AE zones yeah exactly if it's if it's all flat you can see it's not like you have a Colgate Shield that it's going to stop here if it's flat waves are going to and wave force is going to propagate inl well that's what we try to tell people when they ask us about this vzone or the vzone offset like the wall of water coming at your house is not going to respect a line on plan and I think that's why they have this limited mod wave activity coming because so it's kind of our we've already anticipated that years ago correct with this B viso except you I didn't know it's not written to if it's V to X you don't have to have a 25 that but I have said that in meetings I said we shouldn't count this as a as a vzone because it's zone so do you want to just change the offset to V zones to a zones and then we can um we can uh revise the rag that if it's a v to an X it does not require the 25 foot offset and we'll take a baby step like that yeah I think that's okay mirror the I have a question about wave about this moderate wave action is is that mapped yes all right it is mapped we that's important it is mapped because if it's mapped that's then that's a little different than than we have a blanket 25 foot right and eventually we'll have when the map's adopted then we'll adopt it hasn't been adopted yet instead of the five instead of the 25 foot Visa you said it was going to be in January that's that's what said that the new building code AS adopted requires structures in this limited moderate limit limit of moderate w action yeah yeah took me forever those Li Li that those structures as currently mapped will be required to the bill to vzone standards so can I ask a question as a Layman why haven't any I have not heard any of this and I mean I never have heard it is this just going to be another big surprise that the state or the federal government dumps on everybody that they have all these grandiose ideas to build their house and then they find out that it's going to be on SS in January I I did not amend the building cook I know but this is why people get I did not amend State Building C so now they're between that between us and the building department and the building code and the energy people build a house nitren system when did you hear about this um it depends when it comes into play though because there's it's been being talked about in conjunction with the DP R changes that you keep saying you've heard about for 25 years but this is separate from that right from I'd be happy to have see if Shannon would like to come that be awesome um come down and explain this to the board and to the local Consulting Community December meeting yeah I can I can find out when Shannon's schedule is I mean December's kind of tough because it's holidays but um I'd be she'd be happy to come down she's always available she's always offered to come in and talk to the board about this the about your 255 verse foot offset versus this limo that's going into effect I'd be happy to schedule Shannon I'll find out if she's available in December January and there Maps we can see can you guys yes I can tell you about that yeah but am I correct in you and and you having said that if part of the house is in the F of the Zone we require we already we already required it to go up so we're so we're kind of of the I will um well I don't know if you I can tell you about the maps I can tell you about the maps so you can Google um a house and that's FEA map it gives you a little interactive thing where you can type in an address and you type in the address and if the maps are working the map comes up and you can see you got to get used to how they look but there's all kinds of different lines on there and there is one line that is this limit of modate wave action whole thing is so you could and it's not everywhere it's not everywhere it's like you have these a zones that go way up in the upper reaches like way up into Green Pond or something the Lim the limit of moderate wave action is going to not go way up there it's going to probably stop somewhere near that green pond Bridge or something you know cuz by then the waves have like dissipated down to no EAS for us because it's just I wouldn't rely on local G maps for any of this because I've seen differences between the formal FEMA map and our local GIS map and GIS we just use as tool we tell people that all the time it says as a disclaimer yeah the gis is only being used as a tool it is not surveyed it's not feel confirmed and it's not done by a survey so that when people want to know if their properties are in a flood zone if they really want to know go go get a survey we we use this as a tool if it's Clos you're going to go need a survey and they go well why can't you go and just give us the map because these Maps may not be 100% accurate so um I will schedule Shannon I think it'll be really informative for all of you um she's great so I will see when her availability is all right I'm not sure I understand what this is specify no structure Zone and limited work setback yes ar youever oh this is actually just adding so I thought about it just writing somewhere in the regulation that there's a no structure zone of 10 ft from that limited work right now it's basically there's something written in the Preamble that we can we can enforce a no structure Zone but it's not specifically specified anywhere so we just want to add it 10 ft in you just want to have better enforcement of work yeah so Mike's not like only have two feet here just pick it on your mic you're the only one here don't have last week I picked on PO can we talk about this for a second yeah so you do have a uh reference to having a limit of work and then a no structure Zone from the limit of work to the structure correct and you've had lots of dialogue about it and you came to like a policy of 10t but it's not in words in here 10t and the 10 feet came about I think mainly from Commission of birds experience in the construction industry and you need staging set up ladders you're going to overd your foundation you need you can't put your limit of work here and your foundation there so 10 ft became like the number yeah and it's reasonable but sometimes it's sometimes who have argued I mean we have allowed less than that yeah yeah it's really hard to it wasn't new maybe it wasn't new but somebody argued yeah but I was I can see that with a building with a foundation and a twostory building that you got to put staging up to like reside the house or something or paint it but if you've got like the house in a a deck that's just two feet off the ground I don't know why you need 10 feet from the little of work to the edge of that deck other than Jan will say Well they're going to clear it because they just are going to clear it because they want more room or perhaps why do you need 10t to a patio why not 5et because that's like different than a building yeah so 10 ft came about for all of these reasons as well as when I first started I saw two foot limits of work okay M this one was the biggest offender to the two foot limits of work Mike and I'm pointing right at you Mike a lot um and as a builder we'd curse you yeah so so a couple of things with the 10t i i like it it gives the the the structure the ability to breathe um it's not just being able to build the structure maintenance it's being able to maintain the structure it's being able to enjoy the structure so the issue I have with 10 feet from a patio is I'll take the experience again my own patio the new house I bought beautiful hydrange is screening the patio they're encroaching so much onto that Pao to cut them back and we gain 3 ft of patio if you if you if you allow a patio and not room around that patio you're going to be sitting next to shrubs and people don't want that it's too at least to me it's claustrophobic you need one being able to maintain the structure you need to be able to build the structure you need to be able to enjoy the outdoor space and if you don't have adequate room around these decks and patios you're just asking people to cut the vegetation down that's my two cents I'm not going to die on the S no I'm just saying that's that's where I'm coming from from a staff person and you know just realistically five Feet's not lot no it isn't 10 isn't much either no but at least 10 you get a lad there's a little wiggle room I mean we'll take an example oh I don't think we can do we close baby no we have okay then we can't and we've also had ones where we we have conceded where we allowed it closer when there was like again a beautiful oak tree and if they went there 10 feet that they would have to get rid of it and you know they'd work around that we were seeing these unrealistic limits of work I mean and then all the stuff from the contractors goes over the limit of work because it's unrealistic yeah absolutely so I mean the 10 foot limit of work I think I mean we can leave it undefined but it's easier for the staff it if it is defined sounds it's easy for us too because then I don't it's it is what it is right here blame them not me okay we have big shoulders all right let's see let's where's that you have to look at every project on yeah anyway but you do have to have a a baseline for everything mik just said you know it's it's so much easier when it's it's in the book yeah you know I mean like we were talking earlier you know get people like complain all the time I run into people all the time and I'm like all you have to do is read the regulations and you know what you can and can't do there's it's it's it's very simple you know well it's a lot simpler than not simple the regulations I remember when I first got on this board you gave me a book and I went home and I'm like oh this will be exciting you know and I got about 20 pages in and I'm like this is the most boring stuff this is so poorly so poorly organized so I said to Ed to Wi I came I said Ed this is ridiculous and he goes I know that was the 98 regulation I know it's frustrating the way it's organized he said but look at your state regulations it parallels the state regulations and I said well they're stupid he said it may be but that's what they are double down stupid just just get used to it all right and the last one was a comment from uh Rob Dart last week or last regulatory meeting um we can add a table of contents that's easy he just thinks it would make it easier if there was a table of contents you said that Rob no Rob from Bracken engineering oh oh Rob I'm sorry Rob I did my own table of cont that is kind of tough I thought I just said I thought I lost the table cont no they draw straws I mean that's just that's very low hanging fruit and something we can just bang out but it's just something that was mentioned we wanted to address it yeah Mike had The Misfortune of running into me after our last meeting and I said we really missed you said it's on my schedule I'll be at the next one all right so it's helpful though Mike no helpful for us to a certain degree we'll have some fresh topics next time um Jen I think we should put the things some of these things on your red line have to go on the agenda the drip strip V yeah um so for the purposes of the Regulatory and policy review uh we're pretty much done with that for today right yes okay so um anything else you guys think of that we haven't already started discussion on just shoot l an email and she'll have it to the list so we're going to have the drip strip discussion and then also we're going to disc the um square footage in zones under buildings right that's yes well I only brought up the drift because we didn't discuss it today because that was on the agenda but everything else on the list can can be ongoing um yeah and now that we we're like we've morphed that shed fire pit patio discussion to accessor use let me kind of play around with that and propose something to the board that's the fire pit shed patio that's that 200 square foot of imper surface and a zone that coup little more I mean these are going we're never going to finish this one one or two nights like the table of contents we just finished that that's done we'll add one yeah we closed something yay um but I mean and your four foot on Center on the shrs 10 foot limit work yeah yeah so and we'll just I'll take another stab at that shed fire pit thing and try to consolidate it to make it you know easier okay thank you guys next regulatory meeting is December th th yeah same night as the CBC again I leave here to go to the CBC okay um was teacher today 19 you're a very busy man only on Thursdays only on Thursday it's one day a week it's always bad I don't know what it is there all right um okay December 19th same time same channel 3:30 to 530 more of you guys besides just December 19th 3:30 to 5:30 any topics please email Lori and CCE uh the myself and the Agents get it on the agenda and I mean you too if you have a topic that you want to discuss you know we're open to you know if there's something that it's not that Shannon sh sh will be there for that I don't know I'll schedule but I'll let you know um and I'll try to schedule Shannon uh from the uh the flood plan manager and the deputy director of The Cooperative Extension I will try to schedule her either for December or January would it be prudent to have streer here as well um possibly I can talk to Gary see if he would have some time because it be no matter what Shannon says hope this sounds okay it's going to be what the way our building department perceives it correct but isn't the code the building code the code so are there great areas I curious how how they interpret it okay you know what they're going to push for um all right so the next part of this meeting is to vote orders of conditions from the last meeting we had which was almost two weeks ago thanks for I get to go see your cousins and born tonight for a do and a vison wow Happy Thanksgiving Mike a Mike that should be fun all right so St Ron you're not on some of them but you are on some so mind hanging out for a minute around for most of them I've been around for most of them I read either visited them or was here for some of some of the hear most of these been continued over a number of weeks just let me know boss you want me to go home though I will that's my job you're on one of them and not show up all right first up is Albert gabrieli 93 BB Acres Road M oh this is an addition and relocator deck um aquarum is excludes Ron and Steve yeah this is the river with that very aggressive invas this is the riverfront area project you saw with the again very aggressive um Devil's walking stick if anybody went to the property it is pretty smothering so they um are requesting an addition um they want to shift the deck this is a river front project um Riverfront allows for you to clear 10% or 5,000 squ ft a lot whatever it is greater 5,000 square fet was greater when the house was originally built was a vacant lot you allowed an additional 700 so the original project correct me from Ron was 5700 ft they are for an additional 768 plus there's a little bit of additional clearing that's around what 800 or something 870 um for a total of I can't do the math my had that that yeah almost 7,000 the total yeah so total in a river front doesn't quite meet the river front area but if the board feels that Mike overcame the presumptions of significance of that riverfront area which is almost entirely invasive yeah um and it just clear kind of clears an area for them to get to their little path correct I don't have a problem who out to the site it's yeah okay I'll make a motion to uh issue an order of conditions as discussed bird second all right we have a motion second issue oral conditions we're voting Courtney ey Psy Kevin I Matthew's Z all right B order of conditions next up Ron do you want to get out of here we'll take one order I'm I should be in some of these uh let's see next up lost my agenda Sue and Eric Murray 76 man Road F of mass this is the one on the corner I was talking about to raise and rebuild little patio maybe maybe not a spa they are 2% I believe overlock coverage for zoning so I don't know what they're going to do if they're going to come back to us with a small revision to their plan um septic system that was the um mounded septic system with the wall and then um some mitigation to fill the little bit of Zone a on the lot four plants dewatering I think my was the only thing you had brought up and he said that they didn't think that they have be a problem okay they always say they don't think it's going to be a problem next thing water it is till it is a problem no no we don't have you think when they did the perk test it you know they figure it out but whatever well they did say they do what they did say they knew how far down it was that probably won't be a problem probably won't be right probably unless they're digging at Moon tide okay all right anything anybody want to make motion to issue an order of conditions as not too extensively discussed third second all right we have a motion in a second issue order of conditions we're voting according I I O'Brian I Matthew's I Carlo Hawk we have issued an order of conditions next up Jonathan and Annie burle 60 Carry Lane LLC 60 Carry Lane found with mass and this quum excludes Ron but Steve you're on Ito um just a raise and rebuild barely in our barely in our jurisdiction pretty good project yeah pretty well thought out I think they made the changes I don't know if they okay the revised plan okay Street we required a revised plan for just lab labeling yeah we'll figure that out but yeah this wasn't too bad I'll make a motion to issue an order of conditions as discussed thir second all right we have a motion on a second issue in order of conditions questions comments we're voting Courtney lter ey O'Brien I Matthews ey car Hawk smoth we have issued in order of conditions next up Terrence and Margaret Forester 37 beckles road fou mass is the invasive species removal project where they want to burn on the beach they want to burn the material on the beach they have a timing restriction from natural heritage so be put that in and I have explicit oh yeah should you explicitly state that they need fire permit to yes I think so I think we got a response from fire I thought we got a response from fire they already asked no but they're going to have to ask for permission right before they burn at the time Bo to do that we have to get it burn okay fire permit time of year restriction change to two gallon size which I think he agreed to at the hearing yeah he did okay perfect make a motion the issue and Order of conditions as discussed thir second we have a motion and a second issue and Order of conditions questions comments and bird I blf I O'Brien I Matthews we have issued order conditions next up Michael Smith and Ivon Chong four Avenue found with mass this was yours right yeah so this is the one where they're putting the addition over the garage they're increasing the design flow of the septic so probably put over the garage um they are restoring um buffer zone that had been cleared without a permit they're removing a rid station that had been uh installed without a permit and in the a upper Zone and they are removing um since the house is partially in a veloc all in a velocity Zone they are removing paneling that had been installed oh yeah uh over the course of many years and many building permits we determined um where they slowly enclos the bottom of the structure they will be removing that paneling and we should require that paneling to be removed in a site visit conducted prior to us signing off on that building permit and aren't they going to allow and they are going to allow of enclosed space underneath that house and we did get an engineer's letter yes we did oh will make a motion to issue an order of conditions as discussed second uh one other thing do you want to see the areas restored before the building permit gets signed off the shell areas yeah yeah or most of the shell areas at least the ones they can that will not interfere with construction they're building the yeah yeah because they're building the the is over here most of the clearing was down by the road right so you got racing one side they might not be able to do until they Market said they were going to restore those all right so but restore before signing off in the building permit yeah just you're going to do the site visit for the the um okay the panel removal also and they're doing a Nitro system yeah this one that was like a buffer to a June it was buffer to everything you're correct everything I'm sorry Mor R not on this form right you have that okay so we have a motion in a second questions or comments additions all right we're voting I o'ri I Matthew put them all yeah but you weren't at the last hearing that's the problem you weren't at the hearing where we closed all these that's what we were talking about earlier all right but you're on this one so pay extra attention okay all right next up Frank seaka 96 water Side Drive North fouth Mass the only one on the quum for this is Ron no I'm kidding Courtney and mor are not on this one uh this was arene Wilson's project um I think they reading a patio extending a deck important part is mitigation went in it was removed there was an enforcement it was restoration went in it was then again removed not by the current property owner but the the current property owner is well aware of that violation and it was discussed multiple times that staff recommends that at least the restoration portion the violation portion of the planting be installed prior to us signing the building permit and I do believe I mentioned that in every hearing and they agreed with that yeah okay oh you have to we have to give them some room bill yeah oh yeah I'm not yeah yeah the seword side you know going to make them plant on the side where they need the construction access and all that that's just not I mean it got Whitted down to kind of a pretty basic project yeah make make a motion to issue an order of conditions as discussed and monitoring okay we have a motion and a second issue an order of conditions anything else okay we're voting not Courtney okay glri Matthew I we have issued in order of conditions thank you did you guys close anything one that I missed how come I how come I never get the world usually all right next up Dale K Welden trustee Dale Katherine Welden revocable trust 2013 129 racing Beach Avenue f with mass and the quum exclus this is Tom's um death project and mitigation uh he came back with a revised plan because he had had more mitigation for a walkway in the front that was too large or had been increased and this is the one where we told Tom he didn't need to plant as many trees as he was proposing they just can't support yeah so we will work with Tom it's just one of these things where we work with Tom in the field yeah we'll work with Tom on the placement of trees once the Project's done and once we get in there and see how much room we have I'll make a motion to issue an order of conditions as discussed in second all right anything uh uh we have a motion a second any questions comments or input all right we're voting I O'Brian Matthew's I we have issed conditions all right last thing before the last thing other business um site visit for 30 woodneck um they're asking for a coordinated site visit for security reasons um not something we always do I think we've done it a handful of times since I've been here um it's gone for the 11th hold that thought so just to be clear this is going to be for a new notice correct just so everybody knows because we've already had uh an RDA that we already voted on correct so this is For an upcoming notice it'll be adver on the 11 sorry yeah we'll be advertising it for the 11th so ideally we would like to probably go out there first week in December easy first week in December so if everybody could let me know their availability probably Monday or Tuesday the second or the second or third that would be ideal at what time it's up to you guys I mean from the working Steve Mor and Jamie it's going to be really up to you guys is Steve checking his calendar yes I am okay Steve checking his calendar just we let I'll show no I won't show Linda will drive me yeah why why can't we just because they lock it for security reasons and there has been a request from their attorney there Vis so can we gu is we being generous W and that means all of us so you'll be either going with the agents me these guys oh no all three of you are going you're making all of us go you're going is there plent clear is there plenty of parking I'm a little are these people sure they if they checked on me I mean will they let me on to the prop background check yeah yeah did you subm so please just email us whatever time is good for you guys Steve I'm I'm more cons Steve Mor and Jamie because you guys work yeah well I'm just doing Leaf cleanup so I can jump off okay Steve so what were the two days again I'm just throwing Monday and Tuesday because the staff has to get out there so we can do our staff reports and everything else second and third of December yeah I can do just pick a day and know and I won't schedule myself in a day okay I wasn't sure what you were doing it's the advantage of being a sub I work all right we'll pick a time Jamie it cost me a bucking $135 to do the site visit I have you know that's all 9:00 J 10:00 what day what time is better for you 9:00 9 o' mid morning okay 9 o' on which day 9 o' is mid I can't do I can't do for me I can't do Tuesday I for we just said Monday not 9 A.M Monday we said Monday or Tuesday Monday at 9: can you do that I think so why don't you guys check and let us know can okay I already know I can I'll put on my calendar that's my problem all right so at the moment courney you're going to come with us looking for Monday December 9: a.m. and we'll meet at the site and honestly you guys if you can't meet Monday you know at the given time s um we can um I can always reach out to the um applicants representatives and if someone like Courtney you can't make that time I can pick a time with you and I can go out there with you and go out I mean so this has to be advertised is a public meeting yes it does we are are well aware of that and um what was that note about restricting restricting public according to the attorney I believe she said somewhere in the bre I need to cor her show that to me that we uh this isn't like the public is not allowed on the site it's for the commission only but I do have to post a public me well what I I will double check on the attorney I don't know what regulations she's talking about so and she wasn't she didn't clear I can't place it we can take the geography we can car I would be we haven't been there I can fit eight people in my Tahoe so going seen you drive walk she pass all right just let me know and if you can't make it Courtney I will make sure that you get on the property and I will go with you okay all right okay um okay and then I wait Mr chairman do you want to talk about the um open house oh yeah just real quick so um as you know we're trying to recruit more people we have two members that whose terms have already expired but there's a loophole in the system that allows continued service curdled milk can still be used we follow the mor rule um at any rate um the concern is that as people um you know leave that we're going to have Corner mes so we're trying to figure a way to entice people to to want to get involved $500 a day $500 a day that I can't afford to pay you that much um so on what we're going to do is we're going to have a for lack of a better term an open house where we invite anybody that's thinking about it um um joining coming in and talking with us about like what's what's required what's the time commitment um lie always um you know what's involved I can be honest that my expert so Jen and I obviously will be here we'd love to have a couple of Commissioners and when is this it is Thursday December 5th and off the top of my head it's either three to four or four to five I can't remember which one we have was four to five okay it's going to be other departments doing this as well or other commissions or no we're gonna we're going to do this as a way to kind of some drum up some interest and then um the chairman and I will be appearing before this well I'm going to request that we appear be able to make just this announcement at the select board's public comment period on December 2nd 3:00 it's 3 or 4 Steve I'll double check and send it out do my problem like today yeah I know my threes and fours yeah it's okay Steve we got you cover one other thing Mr chairman I think I know and that's why we're doing this because we have a couple of Commissioners tering out next June no I was talking about her I wanted her to listen tonight in the discussion you said several times to make it easier for the homeowner I guarantee you that no one in the town of famet believes that to be true that this commission ever makes it easier for the homeowner that's actually part of the purpose of the open house is that hopefully if people are interested I think they should have heard that I do and maybe some verbiage in the ad that's not only that but just people if they're thinking of of um coming in with an application that if they want to get some input because because you're right that I mean that's a very popular misconception that you know go to any rich people's bar and you hear it every night I don't know I've never been to a rich person's bad okay sure you where do you live excuse me all right I make a motion Jour thank you thank you was he in your neighborhood I think you have to I'll make a no no say bird eye bird eye Matthew's eyw ey Patt ey we're adjourned