##VIDEO ID:DrgZaHTsGUg## all right I'd like to call to order the planning board Zoning Board of adjustment meeting for Flemington burough here Tuesday October 8th 7 pm and we have recing um Can allise un States stands um this meeting is provisions of the open public meetings act both adequate and electronic notice of this meeting has been provided by way of publication in the Hunter and County Democrat and Korea news newspapers on our about February 1st 2024 and January 30th 2024 in addition notice of the meeting was posted at the B slam Municipal Building located at 38 AR Avenue and any handicapped accessible entrances there too posted on the municipal website provided to the municipal Clark and distributed to all persons if any requesting copies of the same this meeting is being recorded with both audio and video and maybe rebroadcast this meeting is a Judicial proceding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider a mention of decision and deorum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times wish I could record that and just press go um Alan can we take the B call please yeah mayor Carol here councilwoman kasaro here Mr Campion here giin here Mr Hill Mr dashna Mr cook his whitesman Mr eeko and Mr sh are all excused Mr Sino here here M kazinski here Mr pero here Mr Harris here is here for M mcmanis and Mr Troutman here that was five right six six okay all right item one on the agenda is a period for public comment and this is for public comments about items that are not currently on the agenda or under our review um anybody in the audience seeing nobody in person I can't see the sidebar Island can you tell me if anybody has their hands raised online I don't see we have no other attendees except for um right all right so seeing none we'll move on to item two mayor comments uh I believe that the um historic designation ordinance will be introduced Monday night uh our attorney's been on way back tomorrow so but I believe it's been assigned and completed and submitted our clerk unfortunately is stuck in Florida 's supposed to be back already but uh get back into at least Friday um so we're we're in trouble right now yeah thanks to the hurricane hurricanes yeah she got stuck down there with the first one right taking her mom back back home and now she's stuck on this one so um we'll see what happens on Monday uh I just want to also um int reintroduce John tilletson our construction official John came in here when he was first hired about a year and a half ago almost and he's came back in he's going to be frequenting our meetings um when he sees things on our agenda because you know there's been a lot of resoning in this town and a lot of questions in his office um so he's uh he just wants to witness what's happened so he knows what's going on um Cara you mentioned at some point that about resolution compliance yeah probably something that would help you out a lot when things get to you at least from this board is if we had something that would was issued so just to kind of give a a quick uh explanation so the board adopts a resolution nine times out of 10 there are conditions to that resolution and the conditions usually have to be complied with before a building permit or any other permits are issued sometimes it's post construction like a asil survey or something like that but U most of them are before the permits are issued from his office so I think what would be helpful is the board professionals would review those those conditions make sure they're all satisfied and then we come up with some kind of procedure whether it's me Bob you know whoever it is doesn't really matter authorship is irrelevant um but just that there's something that's issued where all the professionals agree and it even can be sometimes just do a form where everybody's listed and just checks off her initials yes my things are done my things are done and then that goes to his office and we can at least see and we can even attach a copy of the resolution so everything is all in one um yes here's the resolution yes it was adopted all the conditions have been satisfied and now it's in your hands to be able to take it let me let me ask you a couple specific questions would that checklist I this is a Mr Bob question U that checklist would include like that Bob gotten signed and sealed and a performance f is now in place that's what Cara suggested so that would be on the list and then what about things like um my Bugaboo always is the sewer water issue it's just because they've gotten planning board approval doesn't mean they get sewer water so what I would say is and we can be as specific as you like and this may even go to more specific conditions of approvals but one of your conditions is always any and all other outside approvals necessary including you know utilities County so that would be one of the things that Bob would be looking at in his review to make sure that that's there before he would sign off that there's resolution compliance that would need to be there um again we could be more specific so it's literally line item by line item condition by condition if that's easier um but that would be part and parcel of of what that R we left checkl Mr you um I'm guessing no the the permanent the permanent application shouldn't even come into my office till all the PRI approvals were met shouldn't even come into my office but they are coming in is that the problem and you know and you have been sending resolutions through the email if it comes into my office the resolution should be in paper in the folder so as I go through it I can see that it's there so that could be too that could be a I mean obviously we can't control what an applicant does as far as submitting a perit application there's so much we can do but maybe what the permit application should include and be revised to include is a copy of the signed off resolution compliance and a copy of the resolution so then that way it can't or shouldn't be getting to you until that attached resolution compliance form is there and the copy of the resolution that that's the only that's the most control I guess we can have seem to remove ambiguity at that point because then you would know that something's supposed to be on there I just like to make it clear right now it's it seems like we just almost guess that what's you know we're two sides of the same process right so we need to like work together to get everything done so a compliance resolution comes from this body and and again it's not really the board wouldn't pass a resolution it's really just coming up with some procedure that we could Implement in order to make that happen I'm sorry no please there's two stages to this too it's it's compliance with conditions that have to be met before the board signs the plan that it's an approved plan and then there's a whole actually a whole host of other conditions associated with prior to getting a building permit or uh things of that nature because kind of distinguish it that way in in the the law she sets it up that way because there could be stages in the budget where there's certain things that have to be met before the board signs the plan yet this plan is approved but that there's other things an applicant would have to do car mentioned you know the the posting of under the ml you know the posting of under the local ordinance posting of a construction inspection fees hosting of performance bonds if they're required under the law you know things of that nature scheduling a preconstruction meeting things like that is this something car that you or Bob takes a lead on drafting shares among the professionals shows it to John gets his input and then would bring it to the board I mean I think between us and the other boards and and towns that we've seen we can put something together not recreate the wheel and just put something there for you and then we can decide if it makes sense to make that part of a permit requirement or how we want to do that but we could certainly work work through and and figure out the easiest way to do it and and you know consult with John and then bring it to the board and see what you think yeah Bridgewater did give me they give me the the plans not the plans for the building per se but but the planning board um the application asking for my input if any like like um teags right they they bought the they bought the building they figured they were they got planning board approval they're going to move right in and they didn't realize that they needed Sprinklers and it put them out a disadvantage and we did the plan review all of a sudden there sprinklers so if it came to me first I could possibly make a comment this may need sprinklers so you're saying you'd like to see it the same way like the police of fire would review it a look at that s out to all the Departments to the the construction Department the zoning officer uh the police department the fire marshal so you get it you just have to have Marine bu it for you what happened like tea is such a good example because once once they um made the adjustment for the springler system it's only going to be on the first floor and they made some changes well now she right now they want to move the they have to move the kitchen upstairs right so now they want the um Walkin the walkin on the other location because the chef is going to be going right down the steps in the back so right it would have saved them that time very costly right but Moren get she she must get who is it is it John gets I can copy Moren on that so Morin's been getting them or well I sent it to all the department okay so and I I got to go my office in the morning ask some questions put the blame on anybody make so I can a better way to make sure you get seven copies of the plans we can I usually get in bridgew I get two copies of the signed plans that tells me I know that the plans have been signed by the planning board that's after approval it comes with the package it comes with the application build the building permit applications a plan review do you want a hard set of plans or are you okay with you get seven sets of plans right in here is that what you do well that's with the initial submission when they sign them they sign as many as you want yeah and then how many how many where do you would distribute them I get one I like paper one goes to your office the paper copy with signers with the transmitter I give one to the tax assessor I one to the zoning official and I yeah I give one to Water and Sewer Department and one goes to the um committees the commissions the the share sh the sign plans oh not the sign on let's make sure we're talking about two different things we've got the application coming in and those plans that John wants to have if necessary inut on if there's anything and then post approval sign well the other thing that happened was 7 a church I wasn't aware that there was a bond that needed to be posted I knew you got through fling board but I didn't know that they did post bonds is that the right building yeah yeah it wasn't it was a construction once she gets to a bond Theo was out of the planning boarding into the clerk's office so there's so many different departments that have to get involved with you know phase of this that we need to try the Gap I think it's I think it's fantastic that you're here it starts the conversation that we need to continue on to tie up these processes to make sure we're doing everything correctly and professionally and I think if we can yeah if we can get some forms or documents out there then you know maybe even a meeting a zoom meeting something to kind of for at least us to get on the same page and then bring to the bo if you ever form you said Bridgewater um well no we use we use the back of the folder in the inside uh pocket of the folder the last page of of the construction or all the prior approvals for sign so sign so because they should come in you should get the permit application also it should all come together from here then back to me and as you if you sign off on planning board I look in the back folder there it is somebody signed off on the planning board zoning board zoning absolutely Board of Health whoever whoever is involved all right so we can take a look at the jacket info we can put something together if we just put the the the permit application package with with the application order even comes to you and it just stays Al together as it goes around comes back to me everybody that touched it that needed to sign it signed it that would help unless you can come up with something else not trying to tell you how how to well can identify one copy that does that surely basically the bear coverer that does the I know I want I don't know if the board wants to be responsible for the jacket with everything I mean I think we could probably do it I don't know us to once we start doing different applications for different departments and I think there's a chance for everything to um be get confused because there are several sets of plans that get uh submitted um possibly multiple different kinds of Visions before we actually the initial from the initial application to when you have assigned set of plans um that that you know Bob and Beth have signed you know approved there could be multiple multiple sets and I think there's um you know real well opportunity for some confusion on what plans are there so let's just focus on planning a seed in everybody's head and Ratt around up there until we come up with plan once we get a plan we all get exactly and think a very good point something would improve how it works on want to reduce confusion reduce um the chance of mistakes to happen there's something to happen that affects the applicant and wastes their time and money we want to make sure we're Tien next in not it hasn't been you know going down that road up until this point but if we can improve it why not no exactly there's nothing wrong with checking I'm a procedures person I love it let's do the procedure and if it doesn't work then we change it and if then we would change it to what works um for everybody thank you right no problem at all we'll work on that okay um everything now have anything else um item three Council comments a did you want to mention about the train or should I do that later I'll do it if I remember um okay uh we don't have Dennis for item four of the HPC comments but I think we got just we got one thing through did I see through for them that went T went through and they did that so that that was all signed up and they're working ahead um so I don't think we have anything else from them anyway they put in letter yeah I saw that that was it we have that ready for when we get to that point yeah um okay so I'll move on to professional reports separate from the agender actions um I did have the opportunity to speak with Council for the lender on the sign um they are in the process of making some changes they love the idea of having a meeting once they're ready and they will reach out okay look forward to that I have nothing to report nothing and Mr trackman is excused so I don't have that right now all right let's move to item six approval of the minutes from the he's onl he's online yeah I don't have anything Madam chair thank you sorry j I didn't I haven't been here in a while so that's okay you say hi J sorry um all right item six approval of minutes from September 24th 2024 regular Meeting those were distributed everybody's had a chance to look at them does anybody have any comments or additions or amendments that need to be make on those made on those it's very quiet then we'll assume they go can I have a a motion to approve the minutes please approve we have to be onl we haven't got any people here all right can you call the please um yes Mr yes mayor Carol yes Mr Campion abstain Miss gin yes Miss wiler yes thank you quick um all right let's move to item seven completeness HBC Liberty Village and renewal LLC application 20249 Your Time Has Come good evening there mayor Donald t com of the applicant I have the applicant himself and our civil engineer here we did receive some comments from the uh borrows engineer with respect to completeness okay and some comments on the checklist I responded to those comments today just set the record we received them Friday afternoon um we've been working diligently to try and address them I believe we've added rest probably 40 to 50% of what was deemed outstanding um we're putting the package together again we've only had two days um we're confident that everything that was identified as being outstanding is relatively ministerial um I don't know if you want to proceed by going through things item by item um I really don't know what your process is is whether you have the expectation that everything would be absolutely complete that's not generally my experience there are a number of items for instance notations on a plan that may be missing with respect to a North Arrow I'm certain that we're going to be revising our plans a number of times probably before we're complete and probably even after a planning board hearing so I don't know whether this board's expectation is that every I would be he would be cross you would would be complete I would ask that that not be the case um so again I don't know if you want to go through things item by item I did respond item by item in correspondence today well I will say to your point of you only got the response on Friday that was because we did I did warn you guys that it take this is a big application and that's why we needed a reasonable amount of time for our professionals to look through it and that's the time they used so it came as quickly as we could based on when it was so I just want to support my engineer that that he he made a very thorough assessment and I will also say made a very thorough assessment based on our checklist which is available to you also so um considering the speed at which you guys were asking us to move on this and I made it very clear Mr vone that one thing that really helps us help you move this along is when you come to us if everything's real if everything's perfect or as perfect as it can be so I've got to say I was really surprised to see and I say I hear you said you've already responded to 50% of already administrative but when we see 37 I've never seen Bob list 3 seven things that were incomplete before and I get that you feel that there to different variances of importance but here's one reason why we did this checklist and why we wanted to make it easier for applicants to be clear what we want and and for us to be clear what we want is we've allowed Mass a lot of waivers on projects previously trusting that the applicant will come forward at the next meeting and everything will be done and I I don't know what the correct phrasing is but hasn't worked out well for us in the past let's just put it that way which is one reason why we put the checklist we've been we've we've allowed applicants that freedom and given them that leeway and it really has just caused long-term problems for the application because you say it's a little thing but then it comes up later and it comes up that something was missing based on that it makes the public hearing process usually longer right that's our experience of things that we've seen right so that is where our mindset has come from and that's why I'm not minded to I don't know whether it's useful to go through the 37 one by one or whether it's more useful for you two to talk off out of this meeting get that at this to where Bob can mark all of these things no nothing's incomplete and then come to the next meeting and S it it might be helpful to kind of categorize because when the African filed their initial application they did not indicate a request for any waivers so inevitably if something wasn't there it's incomplete we weren't considering making a recommendation they're asking for waiver yeah it's a good idea no it's not a good idea right so you had a very black and white very very distinct you know yes and no kind of situation um and looking at the response that came in this afternoon there's well there's several categories here there's a there's a few items with the applicant is saying that they have this on file not as part of this application but as part of their prior discussions with the burrow as part of the the Redevelopment uh there's items that the applicant is saying that uh for whatever reason they inadvertently didn't provide and they're willing to provide before the board sched hearing there's items the applicant uh is saying that they're willing to correct on the plans but only after they make a first set of revisions which means you would be deeming it complete starting a process and then at some point in the future you'd be getting additional information uh and there's other items that they just outl just asking for a waiver for reasons that are outlin in the letter I think that's essentially the four categories of out of those categories which ones are you okay with well you'd have to go through I to kind I meant the categories I didn't mean the items are you okay with them in some cases uh well the first category escrow agreements and things like that that are on file because of theer carrots administrative thing we don't have one as part of this application before the board if the ones they already have on file with the burrow are fine then that's an administrative uh process um escrow fees that required as part of a site plan this is also a site plan and a sub submission um they're indicating they have something of record with the burrow again I don't know what it is I don't know if it was filed in I don't know if it meets a standard for ML and our ordinance for filing the site plan uh I could well I don't know what it is so I shouldn't say it wouldn't but I it be because I don't know I would doubt that it would but um I don't I don't know that it would or it wouldn't any name to those points that Bob just said about the ad istrative things and they might seem like silly administrative things but it was a point I tried to make very clear that I recognized that this project has been backwards and forwards and you've done a lot of work together and there must necessarily be a lot of paperwork different versions of Things Different agreements out there that this was the chance to be really clear about what exactly we are working from and now the fact that you're saying something's over there and something's over here just put it in this application put it all in so it was all clear you see what I'm saying that like let's have this one application packet that is absolutely there's no concern then in the future of confusion about which I don't disagree at all but I mean I have to give you some four instances we requested a tax and water clearance those items were paid we did not receive it till today from the municipality we have it as agreement in place with the municipality was established as part of the Redevelopment process it's Our intention to continue to rely on that one of the comments of incompleteness is that the application isn't signed I know that the application was signed there may have been copies that got to the engineer that were not signed but certainly that's something that Mr Rome sign today I know we submitted a survey checklist suggest that the survey was not submitted it was part of the site plan so there are a number of items that really I would submit were largely beyond our control do you want to go through this checklist you know there's some things here I can't request for waivers I I can't you know tell the applicant the board I'll grant them or not grant them so I think most effective benici W on a number of items not a large number five maybe and when you say there's 30 items there's at least four items that repeated three or four times hang on one second so do you want us to go I think you should go through again I think you're G to find there's four boxes you're going to put these things in I think as you go through them maybe find working off of your you have my report and you have the you have the applicant's response to my report which essentially addressing items that addressing items on the check we identifi being [Music] I did restate in my correspondence what the checklist items were so that would probably be the source of both the issue and the response right if I may suggest that's Theo all right then let's let's dig in all right it would probably the first part of the response are you on your my report and their report are essentially the same thing they're they're responding to items in my report right you're holding the the first responses that they're making are to the submission of documentation which is outlined on page two and probably page three of my report where I noted what documents we we received and then I made some sideboard far comments like for example on the application form I indicated we got an application for but I know that it wasn't signed uh so the the first part of of's letter is basically responding to those particular items they all come back up again in the checklist so it might just be helpful just to jump to the checklist items uh and you could fall back on those for like explanation if you you want to handle it that way I think that would be the appropriate so if you want to do it that way you go to page two of the applicant's response letter where it says and if you go to your checklist that that corresponds to item by item so the first item is your item a which is an escro calculation uh again the applicant well the applicant indicates they have an agreement on file with the burrow um again our mlu says you you establish an escr fee by calculating a percentage of of site cost and you you calculate the you know the the escol deposits that come to planning board again they they indicate they have an agreement and they have a something on file with the burrow i' have to defer the car whether that carries over to the planning board or whether we just need to follow our normal protocol and have our own agreement um just again pointing out that um that wasn't submitted as part of the planning board application so do we need that hotel still uses their playing board as for CH yeah with without knowing what the Redevelopment escrow was for I mean if it embodies fees that would be able to be drawn from and paid for the application esops here that's one thing and then it might be okay if it's for something entirely different and relating to Redevelopment agreement uh issues I don't do you happen to know off hand what it was largely for the municipal professionals planning staff did an extensive review in fact i' I'd suggest that they're largely done even though engineering is is not uh for the completeness aspect of our concept plan which was submitted in order to get to this stage things were extensively reviewed by the borrows professionals uh Miss kazinski I do submit that that is an escro it's fully funded we are fine with it being drawn upon I don't see a need for yet another escrow but to the extent that that that is actually a request for a waiver I would make it do we have application escro fee calculations no that was the missing I I think that we're going to need just to follow the Fe schedule at least to make sure if we're going to use that same account which again and maybe this is also administrative question for um because I don't want to Muddy Waters with do you open a separate account for redevelopment versus planning for it I have no idea how that's done you know behind the offices but I certainly don't have a problem drawing from one account as long as there's enough here to pay whatever the application ESOP fees are so I think we need to know what they are but I don't have a problem using the same account and certainly the same you know W9 in that situation but again I don't know how it's done as far as separate can I say one or two things to try to answer that where did you the money that put to Escrow to start the hearing about this did you just turn that over so you don't know because I I'm assuming it went into the same ESC it did go into the same as account as the Redevelopment and was um an amount of 25,000 um to there was no calculation with that as well um and the Redevelopment agreement says when it goes below five ,000 we replenish it to 25 and it say it's for the reimbursement of all Municipal costs re for the project okay so all mun yeah okay which presumably could include planning board fees uh again I'm kind of operating in the vacuum not knowing but I thank you for yeah clarifying that again I I think obviously the important thing is to make sure that we have an agreement in place we have a replenishment and that there's enough money there to cover what we calculate are the application Esco fees for this board because those are of course different than whatever Redevelopment fees have been agreed to under the Redevelopment um so I think that even if we're going to use that account I think we definitely need calculation is to make sure that but you know Mr blon's indicating that the agreement says that if it falls below they have to replenish and you know that's certainly and so far and so far about $180,000 have gone through that esro count to pay for municipal cost and as far as I know I mean I our Municipal engineer indicated if the look at the plan we didn't go into detail today on our DPW call but than that as far as as I'm aware unless something happens we're done on the municipal side okay so I Beth mcis has had C BL launch to working on the site plan with Mr B so you know it's I don't see them unless like said something happens they're not coming back to the council until Council has to do whatever they need to do and see forward I don't see the need for more administrative work on the's end either again I mean you know so just as long as that's not a practice we've done before we could certainly do that I just think we need to all of our so can provide that calculation except you know I I would submit that I you know I think it is appropriate for a waiver because unlike your normal process where I know that the P calculations for the escrow and your ordinance are are based on a site plan $180,000 of that work is really already been done it's not all plan review obviously there were legal costs involved with the negotiation and execution of the Redevelopment agreement itself but I know that spend an absorbit amount of time not unnecessarily I'm not suggesting that but it was a very thorough review to get us to an approved concept plan which was a prerequisite to submitting here so I would ask respectfully if we can rely on the existing espro we are going to keep replenishing it for whatever amount I would just suggest that replenishing it when it goes below 5,000 you'll bring it back up to 25 rather than a I rather than a waav why can't we just get a letter that says what they're going to that that's what the agreement is and then we can put that in our C we can do that I I think I feel like waving it means it we like lose control I just want something where we've it's stated we will continue the eso account as already set up and we will do the following things I'll be careed with Mr I I'm hesitant I'm I'm reticent to do that because I think under your calculations given the amount of site workk involved here it's going to be a couple of hundred, and we are not really in a position until we get Cy approval we don't have funding for this project just being Ted with you so I'd like to rely on the existing Astro at least we get to that so I don't necessarily know that we can wave application fees ask okay no no no what we're asking for is instead of the formula which is going to generate a multi 100,000 check I have to WR understood we have an agreement it was fully negotiated it was signed by the mayor signed by me it's the Redevelopment agreement we can provide you a copy of it there's a section that talks about the esro I described it to you a few minutes ago and we'd like to stick with that agreement so so if we agreed to do that which means as soon as it hits $4,999 N9 to 25 we will not move your application forward until you give us 20 bring it up to 25 yeah that's fine that's fine because we have gotten burn here the only issue is though that when with the turnover in the office somebody that used to watch it carefully and let me know when it's below five I've gotten no notice of it so the last notice I got was I think that it was down to like 45 cents and then I came in and wrote a $25,000 check so so that would have been a different off so that's something else than if we're going to do that because that was being done by Council LEL this will be being done planning level so if I take I can do that perfect and as long as you're going to take over and monitor it and let me know when it's below five we have no problem as long as you understand we will not let you come back here 100% totally understood and to Mr Pep's point I haven't really been involved with you guys up until now but you know if the plans have been reviewed and and commented on then you know presumably there won't be that much work that needs to be done at this point but I think that the Board needs to make it perfectly clear that the reason why it may or may not decide to wave that aspect of it is because we have the Redevelopment agreement in place this is what the Redevelopment agreement says regardless of whether it may end up being another 180,000 we don't know but this these are the parameters this is not a precedent it's not anything else these are the parameters under which the board's I'm just looking something formally in this that says that that that we're continuing with the agreement of escro well that could be part and parcel of a motion to deem the application complete or to Grant the waiver right you know then that would be you know part and partial of it on the record and and a product of the reason why you're choosing to Grant wer application complete once it gets that point right and I will state publicly that everything is toone Council he would do he's done you know process it's just to my point the was um all point I'm just trying to make is if if you'd have just submitted a letter that said that with this application we would have just saved 10 minutes of everybody's time and we would would that was in our response that all that language is in the response yeah but it wasn't in the application okay all right let's carry on to the next point then okay so Item B um there was a a form that sign and the applicant indicates the item will be um furnished prior to this so that's the second bucket something they say it's not there but they're going to provide it before they schedule here so that's like one of our temporary waivers we would call that if how do you want to classify it which which means it's a temporary waver for purposes of completely but it must be provided prior to our hearing which would we we've done right so they're saying that kendil said that don't use formate use the two form two forms but he didn't he didn't say don't submit them as you would have form a did he so I'm confused why we got we're just waiting we want to wait for it say no this this is actually dealing with the application itself yeah we're it n okay sorry yeah it was the statement that the application itself wasn't signed I mean I you know I know I notorized it so get the applicants here okay no we're not there yet I was talking at the wrong Point sorry um item 10 was the you know water certification uh so again we we did confirm that the water count is paid in current and I think we got the letter from the burrow today um I didn't want to pece meal think now we will when I get back to the office tomorrow I will put a package together one of these to be provided items and I think you put those all in a bucket and you do respond accordingly with you know here's Item B the you know item with respect to 10 I now do have it I did not have it this I have a copy that was handed to in my mailbox today all right thank you um so that's that's 10 I you know so that one's complete so you confirming you have it so I do okay uh item 11 is again we're we referring back to the esro issue um item number 12 this was the form a where we were instructed not to utilize the form a that's part of the Burrow's application on its website we were told to use a different form which we did and that different form is submitted but technically form a is not there it is we were told to submit the form we're in the process of changing that over so you just caught that bad timing on that one that's all it is what was submitted was a request for C maybe Mike can speak to this the actual for a even the old for a was not submitted there's a form there and it has a signature on it but there's no information again that's at the that form benefits the water andur department so I really would defer a mic on that those subties is that what I heard that they're submitted now are they those two no we're not going to submit the form because when I reached out to Ken in your Ser utility he said don't he said when he said sub two correct mik F engineer oh hello Hi how are you um so yeah so so the there each department the sewer department and the water department each have a for a form a and that's what you need to submit their individual forms versus a combined form and we're calling a will serve letter that's exactly what came out of Ken to me an email of two separate forms you're correct correct one for sewer one for water I filled them both out they were both submitted they were actually listed on Mr Clo's initial letter as one of the items that was submitted a little further down in the letter so I did exactly what was requested I by Mr D I know that's on your agenda about four items after us tonight that's completely he sub two new form this is just administrative it's not the same form that the board's going to look at tonight it's something else again if if you know if the water Ander department is satisfied with it I have you know I I don't if the information is submitted that would have been on their form that our checklist asked them to submit did you send that to us or did you send it to the word Department as well I sent it to it's part of the application process that came to you so the water department did not get the PO no they got well they may have gotten them as well but I know they went direct Mike are Mike cion are you aware if they came in yes mayor we asked the applicant to fill out the new form a for the water and sour so it sounds like they did a will serve request letter which in most circumstances would be appropriate we now have the new form we just need to fill out and submit the new form or get us a copy if it's already been filled out and we submitted copies of it it's they have they do with your fee department fee that I don't believe the F ask for a fee at this the fee ask for an application this size is $250 per form it doesn't say that on the I mean I'm fine with that but it doesn't say this why reach out to Y and if he can with that I'll drop the check off tomorrow 250 each one for one for say so that was checklist item H yes and and just so I understand because I'm hearing two different things we have the two form we're call Form B is whatever we want to but the two forms we have copies of them right Mike or Bob we have them we have a form in here it's not the I got this is not the form A and B that I saw before it's the different form okay it says it's a request for will serve letter but is that our form it came from Ken deal want us to use that comply not only with the ordinance y but also because it was it allows the two department heads to work independently and not wait for the other to release these forms and beem things complete yeah like we talked about last time we had one form with a number of signatures I just want to make sure we have it be holding Josh up Jos be holding Ken up allows to workan M okay so we will need to update our checklist to reflect the other two CL we'll get there right one thing I'm just we're just doting those eyes on our end all right 13 15 yeah this was the uh submitted County planning board application I typically don't look to do that because there may be some changes that are requested with respect to the site plan application by the burrow if I submit to the county then I'd have to revise and resubmit to the County I understand that this will always be a condition of any approval that I obtain that I get the county approval I'm asking for the waiver that I don't need to submit until I got the site plan approval from the burrow so I can make a single conforming submission to the countty that's a practice typically applicants file with the County planning board and with with county S Conservation District as part of their initial filing with the board the reverse of those just described here is that if the board acts on an application and then it goes to the county if the county comes back and ask for some changes those could be considered substantial the applicant may have to start the process over back before the board again um I you know I've never seen excuse me I've never seen it waved not saying you could wave it um you're only doing a temporary waiver you get applicants asking you to wave it for completeness and ask you to make it a condition of any action you take that they then go go to the county uh both the County planning board and the County Soil Conservation where soil conservation has significant issues after you get pling board approval because of the F they don't all they want to know is the silk fence is up and that all warm water is controlled and there's not going to be dirt flowing into the town system that's all we care about and I already spoke to the guy down there and I told him that we're not going to be removing the slabs of the building when we do the demolition of the buildings during the demo phase we're going to do it during the environmental remediation phase because we want to we don't want to pull those slabs up and if there turns out to be contaminated soil on it and now there's exposure Pathways we want to be able to pull up the slab identify the contaminated soil and immediately deal with it so he said fine then when you're ready to start pulling up the Sledge come in for the permit I'll make sure that you got the sil fence up and I'll give you your permit so why but why can't we do it the way around like to say that like if if it's a if it's if you've already discussed it and got a plan in place why can't we why can't we do this item and that can be that can be what that response is that that's that's the it's a question of time and money it's going to take time and it's going to cost money and I want to get to the point where I've got my bank loan close I have a $5 million bank loan ready to close after I get cyan approval that's going to fund everything that gets us through for the first construction of the first half of town homes and the veterans buildings then that that closing occurs I repaid the bank 5 million I now have 5 million to finish the second half of the town homes so half of the town homes and all the affordables are going to be built and the 12 veterans apartments are all going to be built in phase one so all the affordable requirements are done at the initial stage then the last half of the town homes are going to be done in the second phase of the work a time and money issue it's not but this board isn't forgive me um correct me of a but it's not of this board agreement to consider the financing of the applicant in the decision no we want to ask for these things we get to ask you're you're correct I think he's trying to give an explanation in support of the waiver and timing and that it's at their risk if they do it that way it's it's at their risk either way you know our listen our our checklist says complet an application with appropriate fees for each one of these the board has the ability to wave um the reality of it is that in either way they may have to come back before the board so if they come back if they get their approval here and then they go to the county and soils and for some reason there is a change then they may have to come back here or vice versa they may have to go back to the county if they go there first to get an approval come here and there's a change so I mean there's a risk either way and so it's really problem you have a problem with temporary we run stuff they're they're not outside agencies they're compatible agencies that you would you know you your action would have to your actually be predicated on them obtaining those approves um that's regardless of that's that's a long way saying no you don't have a problem again you it could work either way um it it I'm going to defer to the applicant based on their financial situation uh with their loans if a an approv if a conditional approval from the board it says you have to go to the County planning board for approval meets their their statutory or their their agreement with with the bank the loan agreement the aan certainly spoken to that issue um you know we're gonna this board's going to do their review under our under our ordinances anything we do is going to be subject to on a parallel level the County planning board and and the county saw Conservation District on a subsequent level any outside state agencies do DP whatever um um that's statuto we we can't wait we can't make the applicant uptain those permits uh before we act we have to act subject to the higher authority essentially and irrespective of whether these were requests for wavers our our application and or our resolution always says any and all other necessary approval so you you always have that catch Bo and just to add a little finer point on it the checklist doesn't require that I get the counties approval for either it requires that I app we are still at risk well if you file if you file with the county either agency probably within 30 days 45 days you're gonna get a response I'm just gonna speak for a minute to try and redirect this as the barding engineer in the corner we always have to go for City approvals and any of the boards I've appeared before it's typical that yes there are hierarchies of local versus State and different approvals that are required the the rationale here is that there may be revisions required by the local review which would then affect and necessitate rication to the county saw Conservation District and the County planning board and the antithesis of that is that if you go for those um County approvals uh after the fact of the burrow the county or the SCD might require a revision that would necessitate coming back here we'd always have that come back here no matter what and in 45 years of experience doing this I've never seen a County planning board or an SCD require such a substantial change that would require redesign at the local level and require reap from planning board quite the controver I've seen many times where the the local approval does change the project and you have to go back and reapply to the outside County or SCD the only time that the would really get involved is if they required some significant drainage changes because of drainage concerns as Mr BL pointed out in this case I don't foresee that happening because we've already gone to the D and gotten a flood Hazard permit with total storm water review and we're approved from the DP so I believe the Soil Conservation District will not have any problem with regard to drainage and therefore should not really have any concern that would material affect any approval that might be granted here but the obvious choice of allowing any changes that may be occurring as a result of approval here could necessitate approval there afterwards so it's common practice I I realize it's not part of your standard practice but I don't see any harm in the potential as as Cara mentioned call a temporary waiver if you will just that's the timing I agree I I just think you know they're the ones taking a risk on this they're going to have to give it to us before know final approval so right no no it would be a condition of the final approval your act out out and out waiver because the temporary waivers would be a a bucket where they would have to submit that to the board and Bob would review it or whoever would review it make sure it was there before we had an actual hearing okay this what they're saying is they're willing to take the risk that once they we get Bo approval and submit to the county if the county does do something you know out outside the norm and requires a change they're willing to come back before this board if necessary for amended site plan approval that's the risk they're willing to take but they want your decision before they have to go to the county so that would be an out andout completeness waiver period and then would become a condition of your approval that they have to submit proof of approval from the county and so conri and and councel the hook for us to to to ensure we do it is that catch all phrase you said is at the end of every resolution that any and all additional local full state county approvals are necessary are still necessary and Tacko Mr POI have probably been involved in close to if not in excess of a thousand applications I've never gone to the county first that's what I was trying I waiting for everybody to have to say I was going to ask that exactly because we don't have many members of the board in person but I would like their opinion on that because this is this is like the first challenge as it were to our new checklist that we we put in place to avoid this very reason we put out there that what we were going to ask for um how is the board rest of the board mind it to give a waiver on this item um considering everybody's comments so far can anybody else online comment I see Melissa's GNA hand up can you um she should be able to no sorry I don't think that was actually intentional I think that was one of the dogs bouncing around would you have any thoughts on this though please no yeah to be honest like I mean I see the pros and cons in waiver vers no waiver you know the checklist was there for a reason so we had all our stuff up front but at the same token I understand that some of the stuff maybe necessarily can't be here right now this very moment so Brian or Mike I think we should uh stick with the checklist we created it for a reason and I really don't want to set precedence I don't we worked uh too hard on this checklist yeah I can agree with Mike on that too so you know we have this in place for a reason well can I just say something when we were given the checklist we were told this is a all-encompassing Uber list of things and anything you want to not comply with you give them a reason you ask for a w you give them the reason why and the board has the discretion to grant that so the checklist is really a guide it's it's the everything guide and and we're asking as we were told we could that if certain items We Believe should be waved we we submit those items and we give the reasoning why and then the board can vote on it that's that's what we were told we weren't told that every single thing on there has to be submitted I agree it's a guide It's a guide of what we want to see to be able to make our decision and the thing is when people don't when we give waivers and people don't bring these things we can't make a proper decision it's a County planning board decision that's what it is it's not your decision it's a County planning board decision and we have to go get it there's no way we're not there's no way I don't understand why we can't can't just been applying for this not just apply fill out the application form we have to submit seven boxes of of seven sets of drawings of 50 sheets each and then and then somebody comes up with a change here now we have to submit another seven boxes another application fee it it makes no sense at all this is where the rubber hits the road this board and their experts do technical review they come back with their comments they say we don't like the way this has been designed where that's been designed and here's what we'd like you to do to correct the problem and then we do it I I just want to say when we did this checklist and Mike um I hear what you're saying but but what George iterated just now is exactly what Bob said to us during the entire process they're putting everything on paper and the applicants have a right to ask for a waiver I don't see it as setting any kind of precedent because they're all going to ask for some kind of waiver on every list no matter what and you know to dig in and say we're not going to set a precedent on on something that's um their risk and not an unreasonable request in my personal opinion you know I I don't want to dig in like that because every single time we talked about this check with Bob said they can always ask for a waiver and that's the process you're going to and that's the process they're asking for a waiver and it's not setting a president by granting it it's exactly what Bob said we did a kitchen sink of um of everything so that we wouldn't forget either it wasn't just what we want it was things that we wanted to make sure that didn't fall off our radar like fores and um I don't have a problem gring a waiver on this because it's their risk and they do have to get it and um they do have to go to the plan board they do have to go to SP conservation um and it's not our jurisdictions they're not our jurisdictions so um I don't have problem with it I don't have a problem with gring labor because at the end of the day if you go to the county they say no you're going to come back you can't move forward you guys they can't move forward without that County approval so if we give them approval they go to the county what's the mechanism other than the applicant them themselves to tell us okay they don't have the approval from the county do we get any kind of notification from them resolution compliance that would be a construction permit I your building department would be sign okay okay so then I'm fine with if I'm fine with the waer on this you're gonna get black County right you're gonna come me it's really about the fact that this isn't our jurisdiction right they're going to say whatever they're going to say at the county and it's really about giving them the leeway of when they're going to go to the county um because it's not it's it's not our jurisdiction here on County Ro we have to go you're a state road you're not and we're on a municipal boundary two dra disturbance is the reason you have to go yeah and again it's it's largely I mean in some applications if you had somebody who was looking to put in a deck or something like that that might have required this or some smaller application you're less likely to get comments and changes from the planning board that might make more sense we're relatively confident that the line share of changes to our application are going to come from the from the bar I assume you've read the county regulations and you're you're confident you're compliant with the county regulations yeah well again because we have the D approval of our totally separate which is why we put it in our list have applicants think about ahead of time besides they save them time like if if as everybody's saying give them a waiver then we give approval then they go to county or soil and then they say we have to start the whole thing again I thought that's what we're trying to avoid is trying to avoid applicants having a keep coming back do it right now do it now put it in and find out but that's their risk that's their risk okay we were just trying to help all right let's move on to item 15 then is the tax per which we also have water and sewer but I did not get the tax um certification them it was requested so I asked for it temp I spoke to morning she said she was going to put them in your inbox no no I did not get that the only thing I got were ex I have a copy I'll give it to you I'll give you my copy well I can make a copy okay I guess complet absolutely we got one of those oh yeah this is what I got so that's water sewer tax BL told me okay you see it on there okay so you it's it's a hard form to read she had to show me where the it actually concludes everything's paid but hold on here had to do that so that one complete perfect and that was requested about a month ago by the way and we just got it this morning the wheels turn in interesting way sometimes right um item 16 then yeah this one's going to be this one's somewhat technical um the as with any application the applicant has provided onsite storm waterer management and compliance with representing being in compliance with storm water regulations uh this board as part of their review process has to make a determination of what's been filed is in fact compliant with the storm we regulations we have no provision to Grant waivers from any design standards or anything like that it's either compliant or it's not compliant and we need to make that finding as part of our finding if we're acting on an application for approval what the applicant has indicated here we pointed out that there's several more than several numerous um stor water basins facilities on the property as part of the design of the of the project uh they provided only soil testing I believe on one or I think only on one of the basin uh we pointed out that they have not complied with the storm whe regulations in terms of there's missing information and the response here is essentially that uh and we had a conversation about this earlier yesterday uh that there's they're indicating there's a provision of the storm waterer rules that because there's contaminated soil here that there's there's a provision of the stormw rules that allows them to defer call defer the soil testing until after such times they've actually done a cleanup of the site um I asked for a citation of that um specific citation wasn't provided I went back and looked through the stormwood rules I can't find that in the stormwood rules what they did provide was a think from their environmental impact statement and from um their um their um environmental consultant indicating that in fact there are so contaminated soils on the site the soil shouldn't be removed they can again s of summarize what the letter says uh what I don't what I don't see uh and again if we get into this as part of a review and we get to the point where we have to sign off on on the design and we say we can't sign off on the design and evitably that means the board can't act on the application so I think this is this is really kind of a technical discussion we need to have and now is as good a time as any to have it um because I don't I don't again if you can cite a chapter and verse in the storm waterer regulations that says you can defer on this but in some of these basins require some of again we're not getting into the technical review of what they provided um we're not here to discuss that we're just here to acknowledge that there's missing information they're acknowledging that there's missing information they're saying they can't provide it now because of again they could speak to the reason why they can't provide it now Bob just so I understand the purpose so the permeability testing would go to the feasibility of the proposed basins and other storm water management facilities that the board would ultimately be approving by way of the plan correct and there's determination of seasonal High groundwater and there's determination of permeability some of the basins don't require permeability testing based on the nature of the basins some of them appear that they do uh and there was a only testing provided in in one of the basins that I gather is outside of the contaminated area that's correct and if and if there's a a provision we can site to again we're kind of back to the at their risk because if the permeability doesn't work and there's an approved plan then we have well there's not going to be an approved plan if if if it's if there's no citation in the stormw regulations or in the best management practices issued by D or some directive from DP saying that yeah they don't have to do this at this point in time we have no ability to Grant a waiver our at the end of the day our require Our obligation under our strong waterer permit is to say we've approved an application that is compliant with all the storm water regulations if those regulations require an applicant to make a determination on on groundwater conditions order to document that their design is compliant with the regulations we need that information otherwise we can't we can't approve it so there's there's an issue here and I again there they're indicating that they can't conduct the work because it's contaminated soils again I don't again I asked for chapter and verse in the regulations and I we look through the shter no we can't find it um I I see what you provided I I see what your environmental consultant is saying I can appreciate that um but I don't understand why in doing an escavation on site if you have contaminated soils you deal with that as part of the soil up um just like you would you know not ask you to rip the whole site up so I I think you know we're at a point here where I don't know even if we wave this we're going to go through the review process and we're going to hit a roadblock at some point when the board's ask me can't legally yeah that's what I'm saying the real question is can we legally wave it because again if we can legally wave it and the board decides to do that then it's at their risk if they decide they don't want to do it until after the approval because if it comes back in a nons Factory condition then again they have to come back for amended approval because they have to do a redesign or whatever it would entail at that point in time but the waiver is the issue well the waiver I'm I'm seeing is that what they're asking for is to delay given us the testing is that right that they mentioned that they're providing for deferral of testing the citation that Bob doesn't have that they're claiming is saying that it will provide for deferral of testing so it like Bob you're saying we need to see exactly where it says that to be able to allow you to do that have that asking her defer after the board acts on the application right so for that we're going to need to we we can't as Bob said we can't act independently of that of whatever you've found if you found something that gives us the the permission to do that we can do that inter hopefully clear this all up please so this came about during the storm water review of the project by the D and the d review a engineer and the supervisor the ones who told me to seek this waiver and they I will reach out to whoever it is I don't recall the specific question I think it was Danielle Jones but I'm not 100% sure and I will get the chapter and verse from them which basically says do not test in contaminated areas seek this waiver and it's in the St report the 1500 plus pages that of course Rob hasn't had a chance to review it from a technical standpoint right um just for administrative completeness and yes the these results are not there there are eight basins on the mall side one Basin on the parking lot side the parking lot site is clear the mall site has the remains of the Iron Forge and the soil mated D said don't test D said put this letter from your lsrp in your report and D reviewed it and D approved it so I concern a problem with stor management compliance we did get a per perm I get done that this is one of those situations have you have dual dual review DS again I haven't see what DP is issued on this that's another another item on their checklist but um de the burrow has obligations under their permit irrespective of what DP has done DP is going to assume jurisdiction here for review and approve the storm with rules and leave the burrow off the hook that's that's perfectly fine but that's that's what's happening here and and could go the temporary waiver route with either a specific citation that Bob can review and approve or I've done this before have some acknowledgement from the D that this is what they want we not it all suggesting that we don't do this that's not even on the table I get it we just need something in for the application to move forward that confirms the citation is not I have to okay we need something in writing that confirms what you said they told you verbally right to be able to consider whether that might cover us or whether we can then do do we have to do that honestly we're again not asking toid yes we just said that it's the law we can't I don't I don't believe I believe that's incorrect I do not believe it's the law it is absolutely the law that we must do this testing it is not the law that you cannot wave the timing of this testing you are absolutely free to wave the timing of these testing I I I've done this as conditions of approval many many many times a condition of a my understanding it's a condition of a board approval can't be a subsequent uh the board votes subject to the applicant's ability to show that they've complied with the regulations yes and that can come at a later date and I think it makes some logic because on a contaminated site if we were to remove 700,000 cubic yards of soil what good would a test of the soil existing conditions today do Oh no you're testing no you're misunderstanding you're testing for seasonal High groundwater conditions which you can certainly there's other ways of potentially doing that but you could certainly you could certainly dig a hole in the ground you could certainly remove two yards of material you could certainly deal with that material if it's contaminated you could test for your your uh your groundwater elevations you can provide that information to show that you're vase into the way you designed it is compliant or not uh and uh and you could back fill with just like you would when you go to do the cleanup nobody's asking to take the whole site out I'm just saying that we're going to run into a um procedural again if you have something from D that cites a citation if you have something from D that says okay Flemington B you could go ahead in this situation and do it that way again it's not it's not what again keep in mind that the burrow like every minister ality has a separate license with the with the um stor water license with the with the D they're under their own obligations to document compliance with that if they violate that they're in violation of their permit not the applicant the Burrows in violation of their permit understood and that part of that permit provision requires that this board make a finding as part of your approval process that what's been provided for storm water uh is in compliance with the regulations and you know lacking that that uh existing ground condition ground seasonal ground water condition which you have in one case you do have it established for one of the basement but not for the others uh and the parking lot where there's no contamination that's the one yeah right correct and and the issue is if you if you dig contaminated we're not we're not granting a waiver we're asking that when you when you go to public hearing we have that l that confirms what you said that they he told you that we can do that's that's fine yeah that's what we're asking for that's all we're asking for that when it comes to the public hear we're going to need that or we're going to need the testing right 100% that that can come in and so we're not granting a waiver of the requirement we're granting a waiver that you could have given that to us now we say you can have it bring it to public hearing temporary fall temporary until the public hear in yes okay let's move on um it I believe we've gotten written confirmation of the lock block and address designation from the TA you got that we'll get it to you tomorrow here's there we go another that's the right that's complete 18 is 18 you say it's not appable well is there a reason that is applicable feel about that response right so blood wood hasard designations the checklist requires a FEMA map showing what they are we can give you that but it's so outdated and useless it's it's actually we actuallya you got to have what what item so we we processed a flood Hazard area permit with d an individual permit allowing us to fill part of the flood plane and excavate and that a comp compensatory storage excavation area to ensure that we comply with the D rules flood Hazard area and that that permit establishes the existing and proposed flood way or flood Hazard area on site the flood way is not changed the flood way is per the F map and it's down near Route 12 and we're not affecting that at all well then what you need to do then what you need to do is provide as part of this application a copy of that permit which I believe was not included and if that permit refers to drawings that establish or document flood Hazard regulations or um um floodways or flood Hazard areas your plan needs to reflect where those are it does and again I didn't I didn't see it on the plan and the permit was not and that permit was not submitted as part of the application and we'll get you all of that information including the reports that go along with that a couple under more pages to read right uh from Acom who did all this work for us okay that's good that's what that's what this process is going to do is pull everything together that's relevant to the application so that when we go through this process we know exactly what we're talking about which which reports we talk about that again is a temporary waiver until the public hearing right they're gonna provide it at the hold on we'll talk about timing because he okay this first you indicated earlier that part of dp's review was a review of your storm water management system for the project yes and there that documented in the document permit I'm sorry it's in the permit it's in the permit okay just though as a technical matter I don't think that we're proposing to ever provide you the FEMA blood plan we're proposing to provide you in Li of that the D permit the D permit they're actually mutually exclusive but the DP per now is is probably the more the primary one and but the report from Acom includes the the feap anyway so you can just see it and see how we modified it enhance their model 19 is the environmental impact statement which we provided today did you um did I see something about we need the seven copies of that and you did you just PR one yes you did there was an email that went back from iene to no to Heath yes at and so he will be getting you the seven bound copies perfect and actually Mr chman um responded also that he does not so six would be fine one to Bob and okay okay all right 20 21 22 are they yeah next two are kind of combined the U is the Wetland um documentation and V is obtaining an Loi from d uh the response here is well actually should clarify your response you kid you um you filed for the LOI already no the LOI and the wetlands permitting are being done concurrently Acom only did the flood hasard work did not do the wetlands work so Echo Sciences who did the Eis is also doing the wetlands work but we told them to get the Eis done first and they're endeavoring to get the Wetland Loi and permitting application in ASAP so as of right now you do not for the check but you do not have your plans to not delineate wetlands and you're not submitting a letter of inter a even an application at this point correct the have been deliv by and now they're being plotted on the survey and then they're going to go down the D and then they're going to confirm it again we just TR to deal with information is before the board right no nobody's questioning what you're saying but it has to be information that's on the plans before the board right and at the moment we don't have that right okay so are we suggesting that there would be a temporary way to shown that they started those applications before we assess the project at least started them or do they have to they have to have gone [Music] further again you're going to be in a jurisdiction for wetlands and delineation and disturbance fall strictly with the De Page normally we ask for this so you're reviewing an application where the applicant is taking that information in consideration uh they have a flood Hazard permit from the D but apparently that did not um go over onto the environmental side for the you know Wetland delineation and and and the uh and and the issuance of a letter of interpretation which is a basically a confirmation of the Wetland delineation um so you're going to be looking at a project without the benefit of knowing whether or not they that those agencies have any any uh any jurisdiction or or any uh component of Regulation over the project um recognize the side we're talking about a mall and a parking lot there are no Wetlands on it it's obvious anybody walks out there U but the there are plenty of areas offsite that be of concern and those are the areas that Acom did give preliminary uh field assessments of where there could be a concern although they weren't mapped and they didn't go through the D Loi process for whatever reason so echos Sciences is now doing that they confirmed basically the same line we know where it is of course me knowing and you being able to review that legally is different thing we didn't design a project like this in a vacuum but we are fully cognizant we must go through the process of course and we're endeavoring to get them onto that ASAP they've been doing the work they my office has already fi located all the flagging and it's being plotted they're doing the paperwork to get the application in how how long consider that that might take unfortunately I don't work for Echo and I cannot answer for them I would hope we're talking a matter of weeks but they work for a year in terms think we're a couple weeks in terms of having it ready for a public hearing is what I'm talking about right I I don't want it I don't want to give a waiver and then you say oh no it can't come in for another two months oh God and then that's that's the tie we've been if they tell him a couple months he's going to fire saying temporary to the before the planning court hearing that's fine and then as far as the actual uh you know it's one of those higher agencies that we would have to condition any approval on I get it it's just that Bob seems to suggest that we should have considered without start process or well again even if the African has even their delineation of where they think there's weapons that should be on the plan right what George just said before the hearing and it has to be SE for 20 21 realistically the next hearings are in two weeks and then not until November yeah we're not talking two weeks no well you can't because you'd have to submit back exact so that's why that's not we're talking November I believe it's to 19 we talk about that later that's the first possible going right so so for the purposes of timing we know Echo will have this stuff in De long before then okay pose 22 I guess this that's saying that this document you're looking at is the request all right just going back real quickly what are we doing with 21 21 is item v item 20 and 21 says if issued so we don't have that so really it's not applicable they're they're going to provide us with a copy of their filing of the LOI we yeah they're going to give us plan showing what their their documentation of where they think the wetlands are and they're filing an application with d so really B right now or 21 would be not applicable obviously one of the conditions would be confirmation of the wetlands area via the LOI from thep doation their filing with DP yeah well that's true I think that kind of comes under [Music] 20 no yeah well I join them together 20 is their delineation of the wetlands the 20 uh 21 is their filing an application for a letter J asking D to confirm that what they filed would uh what they delineate is in fact acurate okay all right okays which we have I thought was part of the submission certain right we focus principally on the buildings that are going to be maintained because it doesn't didn't seem to make a lot of sense to give you photos of buildings we going to tear damage yeah and often applicants have a group of photos that that they present as part of the as part of a public hearing we just ask but that is I've suggested it's best if that's furnished ahead of time so people can take a look and check that everything's complete before we get to this point sitting here and like protage right so I know we can use also there's I know there's a lot of photos in the Redevelopment and that study and you probably every single photo you need yeah but we we do have it I I thought it was actually part of what was submitted apparently it was not so we can get that tomorrow you know right okay all right so item 24 you're asking for a waiver of the traffic yeah you want hear from Jay I do want to he from J now so I I I received a document today um that documents what we all know which is that the proposed development is a much lower traffic intensity than the existing uses on the site um I think what I would like to see in terms of a traffic analysis is just uh the routing of the site generated trips whether they're going north in and out through town or going south via Route 12 how that split works and some some baseline data from church and Central and from Route 12 in Central just the two ends of the project showing again the assignment of the trips from this development in and out of the two ends just to confirm everything's clean everything works um I'm open to to board comments on that but that would be my suggestion for the traffic study I don't see a need for it Jay I mean we're using the exact same curve cut on Route 12 that exists today we're using the the the Central Avenue intersection on Church Street everybody agrees there's way better levels of service that they're going to result as a result of the Ste o housing H and what is that going to give you what is that extra information going to give you it it's going to show us uh in today's conditions under today's Baseline traffic condition that everything functions in terms of your access safely on either end uh if if if if if if the board does not want you to do a traffic analysis um I will simply go out and make my own observations as part of my technical review and I can give the board an opinion that way as well how are you going to analyze the traffic generated by the project when the entire site's fenced in and there's no traffic going to or coming from the site what are you going to be what are you going to go out and count there's no movements like I said I you know the board can make that decision and um I I will I will uh do it as part I haven't done the technical review so I will do it as part of my technical review I can give them an opinion at the time of the hearing he said if we don't give them a traffic study that has all the different numbers on it that he's going to go do his own he's going to go out there and do the counts you're proposing no didn't say that I I said I'm going to do observations I always visit sites and do observations I'm I'm not going to do a full traffic study this all right this is meant to be a very polite situation here meant to be a formal situation but I will say is you're asking you're coming before us with an application for a project that includes roads new roadways that's right and you're proposing that we don't need a traffic study it doesn't make sense to me well the reason there are going to be vehicles and traffic using those roads you're generating trips from the people that are going to live there and have cars there and generate trips to different locations that people are going to come in people are going to come through people are going to come through stangle and then continue to use your the roads that you're jingting I don't see how you don't think you don't need a traffic study the purpose of a traffic study a project forward and from through this board that has New Roads with considering a traffic study I don't understand how you would think I would do that well the purpose of a traffic study is to determine levels of service and whether there's negative impacts because of levels of service going down because of increased traffic that we have the exact opposite situation here there used to be tens of thousands of cars every week coming in in and at that property I know because I live in the next town over and I used to come here shopping all the time bus loads of people so the conclusion is going to be the levels of service are going to be vastly improved everybody's clear on that and yet we go we have to spend money and waste time to say what we all know is true we can't do a public hearing under the ML on everybody knows that that that's we have our traffic consultant made our gave a written opinion of that fact supported by some diagrams there it's not that we didn't submit anything we submitted it pardon me it's not on file with the board yet it just was published yesterday but they can file it they can file it J what did you say Jay we missed it the documentation they're referencing is not on file with the board officially yet but they can now file it the the document I'm talking about is dated yesterday received by me today so none of you all have seen this yet I we we could certainly accept that a as the traffic study docum for completeness purposes I will however go look at the flows on Route 12 I'm not going to do counts I'm not going to do a full traffic study and charge you for it but I will go out and do those observations I think we need to know that there's gaps on Route 12 to get this traffic out on the 12 and we need to know how much traffic is going back and forth through town thank right thank you J that's fine thanks item 25 is the survey I think we've discussed this previously let's clarify that do you said that's fil as part of your application it will be it just came in today and I emailed it to Jay as a courtesy no no no I have a copy here but we'll get multiple that's a document you're going to provide yes yes so that's a to be providing uh item 26 is some notations on the plans which I believe we you know we're agreement that with the next set of revisions we'll add those details yeah these particular ones are more um reference documentation the these are something we could wait I wouldn't have them just revised the plan to have this showing on the plan we could certainly review the plan um and they're indicating that now in the event some of these sheets have to be revised anyway obviously they can put the information on but to just do it for this purpose uh I think that this would put put this in the category of a temporary waiver right well no let's gra what we're doing temporary waivers must be satisfied prior to auring so the understanding here yeah the understanding here is that they're going to do it with a subsequent revision and they're not going to make revisions to the pl right useg the temporary waiver would mean that yeah it would be temp me would mean the application can be deemed complete without that information beond the plan on the condition that they indicate they're going to they add that to the next set of revisions to the plan and that maybe maybe we can add the Proviso that they it's it's for certainly added to the set of copies that will be signed following any right you can almost do that we could do it at that point but that it's almost a semi- temporary wa isn't it it's in between it's all between public hearing temporary yeah we're say wait for completeness and it will be addressed um we will expect in connection with the next Revis which could come before the hearing depending on corre the review correct sure but that's as a minimum like if we if you don't change the plans until that point those we can add it on at that point all right save that because we're going to use it again at the next page okay owner signature the signature that would be the well again I defer to the board but that would be something simar it seems to make s all right so same thing here 28 scale PL the same yeah right well not not exactly not exactly this is one where the all the plan sheets submitted meet our scale requirements with the exception of the existing conditions plan and our conversation yesterday indicated that essentially everything on this site is being demolished and removed with the exception of some um two buildings on two buildings on is it chur on Church um what we agreed to do is that they could use the 50 scale plan and just basically cross the whole thing and say every everything on this site pavement trees buildings whatever's on there is gone um and that but in the area around the existing buildings where some some stuff is being preserved some stuff is being reconstructed and being removed they could do an En llarge detail of that particular area so you actually right now the plan you have at least I I can't really read what's going on there to extend everything's being removed doesn't really matter uh to extent there's an area that's going to be somewhat preserved I think we need it for detail so that that would be that will be a scale saying so that then can see how far around it is being presented so temporary I would think that would be something I'd want to see that plan as part of our review if you when you're talking about you want to see the enlarged detail yeah right so maybe the way to do we do a revised site plan or not so maybe maybe the way to handle this is we this is we could separate this into two issues the note to the existing conditions in demo plan is one and then the enlargement detail so revising the plan to reflect on the existing conditions can be the waiver and dealt with is 26 the enlargement detail can be a temporary waiver that's a separate plan be on the existing conditions the the W I think is that we we are not expecting the whole site plan to Prov provided at scale everything demolished we just want the the buildings that are being saved at scale and the rest can be at a smaller scale that's what we're saying no they'll resubmit the sheet they already have they'll just add a detail on the area on the site at a larger a larger deta so you can actually so to change to one sheet yeah do you want that one sheet now or as part of the revised plans we're going to do with all the other stuff want to see that let's deal with the buckets we we got what I was calling the 2D provided bucket which is essentially and we had a bunch of these up to this point where they said they have information they're going to provide the d letter or whatever all that's going to have to come in that bucket's going to have to be filled and documented that they filled it before you before you know you you're saying that we now have a complete application and before you're going to schedule a public hearing um the other bucket the temporary waiver bucket is just that complete his purposes whether they give it to us or they don't give it to us the application is complete without that information right and if it comes in during the hearing at some point keep in mind that any time during the point of this hearing an issue comes up even if gave it a temporary W where you say you know what we really need to have that information to make a decision the applicant's got to provide that information uh it's just is really it's just the completeness purpose is just under the municipal land La really is to start the clock once the clock only starts after there's a complete application right and that's the you know to be provided bucket when that's full and we determine it's full then that's when the clock starts all right twin sh CER on your on your side um 29 Street crosssection yes the applicant request away um I think there's several items here but the street crosssections yes we we can we can grant a waiver on the street cross-sections there's another component of this I think it's in the next in the next item cerine profil cerine data we agreed you can speak first yeah now we we had a conversation we agreed that uh they're going to provide sataline profiles of the roads are going to incorporate the utilities on those particular profiles we're not going to ask them to put a plan View and the cross and the um profile view on the same sheet which is what the checklist requires okay um but there's going to be stationing on that drawing so we can we can we can review both documents together they just won't be on one sheet the issue I had here though uh is you indicated that um on the next set of revisions I'm going to really need to see that in order for me to review this um that's how I that's how we review these kind of applications there's a whole series of Roads uh that are even though you'll be it's a site plan the roads might be private there's a whole series of roads that run through the site there are RSI standards we have to review this against so I I have no problem um you know saying we could do it that way but we're going to need to see that information that's not going to be something I can turn around in a matter of a day or two but by next week again this to be provided bucket is going to be listed here the board's going to vote how the board vot prior to and and what they're saying is that we won't schedule a public car when this is all said and done we'll decide how much time we need after the bucket is full to schedule the hearing but um it's basically defining what it is you need to do in order to be considered complete uh and it is separate from things that you're going to ultimately have to do as part of the application but not necessarily before the clock starts just a technical question if I I speak engineer engineer utilities all we really have is sanitary there really isn't any storm because it's all under the GI stuff it's basically sheet flow and infiltration basics you want water Ms on the profiles um they well typically they cross you know if there's Crossings of um that's something the bur would want to see if they're Crossing storm drains or something like that will be a crossing yeah if you need the water you you've given us you have storm profiles they're just not on the center line of the road right there nothing goes so you can take that information incorporate into the Cent Line Road profile and you have both of them together you can have the crossings of the storm my question is on the road profiles which is where the waterline is going to be do you want to see the waterline Mr cion might want to see it as well yeah they might want to see it you probably should show it typically it's shown typically it's shown it's showing at a uniform dep and when you cross something where you have to change it to cross something you show drop the water move or go over drop or whatever you're doing this is 30 31 and 32 uh this is uh I item 30 uh item 11b we did 11 a 11b profile yeah it's it's the profile scene um yeah and 31 is Center Line curve data um that's going to be on the flat right yeah that that honestly I don't really it's checklist requirement whether we have it here or not it's these are not public roads they are in easements you are dedicating eventually it would actually be on your subdivision plan than it would be on your site and the central angle data would be on the subis yeah this is like the waiver for item 26 um no we're on item um no I know we granted a waiver in connection with 26 because it's weighed for purposes of completeness but will be added to the next set of Provisions oh that bucket yeah yeah yeah that right that's other the bucket 32 as well is a waiver 32 um we did that I mean there are very few and nothing is impacted because the Astro standard so again if it's not on the plan I can't review it and comment on it I could as part of my review I could just say information to be provided leave the comment open it's a technical RW do you want it now or do you want it later well if you want comment on it giving you one sheet with the blow up and and two profile sheets that that's one thing or if I'm giving you an entire Revis set of plans that's a different an I don't know where these easements are so I don't that you you would have to be a better judge they're going to be on all the plan sheets again if if are they there now or they were just worked on today so they'll be there by the end of the week okay so they'll be on the plans that we will be able to review at public here M if you want them for the public heing they go in the interim bucket of the things I'm going to do the next week or the engineer has opportunity honestly I think at the end of the day you're going to probably have to revise some some sheets to show to show this stuff yeah we were dancing around trying to avoid that but I think the end of the day that's what the public heing looks at the complete set of information been saying this is going to come again later let's just let's just put it on before the public here and then everyone can see exactly what's on there I think this is an opportunity to like get that set plans that's going to be um constructed clear um 12 is a next 33 is a survey which they're going to provide yeah they mention it yeah that's that again will be in the items in the bucket of items for the public uh 34 I'm going really have to uh defer to on this this is referring back to the documentation that they worked out with be um again this is not going to be part of my report um I got a comment on zoning information um but there's a again from a comple standpoint there there are no setbacks and and Doc that kind of documentation shown on the site plans um they're asking for a waiver of it and the logic there was that just as with the um demolition uh issue before we're not showing all the existing setbacks to all the existing buildings because they're all being demolished I would I would comment on yeah if it's an existing building no I wouldn't want to see that we're talking about preserving um we have shown additional detail for those buildings all the proposed buildings what we had worked out with with m vanis was that we would show the physical setback Dimension at key points wherever there was a concern or it was close and we would update the plans because she obviously reviewed many versions of this site plan I've been working on for years that had different setbacks shown on and we now have the setx shown to her satisfaction with all the Second Story overhangs versus the ground story um patios to make sure they confirm to conform to the 10 buer setback or the 25 for the upper story uh so we made sure that our general notes and our plans met all of her intents my general notes with regard to BU setback started out at about 15 lines it's probably 60 now because we were very meticulous with her office and made sure we complied with the F of her request I believe satisfied all that I I'll leave that to your consist letter so just just for clarification for the board um we did find that their concept plan was uh consistent with the Redevelopment plan like the concept provided in the Redevelopment plan for the Redevelopment agreement so that's the review that they're referencing how we went back and forth and and figured this stuff out um I'm not sure exactly on the specifics of why this was flagged for completeness but I just want to uh be clear that the consistency review We conducted is separate than the completeness that Bob is uh conducted but they are correct we did go back back and forth a lot of consistent with the r plan which established all of these bul criterias and setbacks and we had to add a lot of data to make sure we made you happy do they need a waiver because he's saying that they've it's on the drawings so they've actually provided it so they do they need a or they need a waiver to provide it in a different manner is that what I so I think I'm just a little confused as to what exact like the specifics of what wasn't provided but set backos building take the existing buildings off the table we're not worried about buildings um but the checklist required for proposed buildings to show you know setback documentation if you want to we can actually read the what the checklist says um that's pretty much what's what you have there yeah building envelope size and location of any existing structures with setback lines shown in dimension for all existing and proposed structures from property line are there the building envelopes are there and the setback lines are dimensioned but we do not have are dimensions to all proposed buildings we have Dimensions specific call outs for certain key proposed buildings that are close right like those like pinch points whereever like exactly like the veterans homes are close to the property line wherever there's a deviation required for the existing structures on one and 57 allies building Church Street those have existing deviations we call out those numbers they're in the chart and on the plan what we didn't do is put a setback number from the boundary of the track to every building building at every location to every perimeter because the setback line showed that we graphically met all of those however when it was Clos we did put the dimension to make sure that it was numerically correct and it wasn't up to well is this Clos or is it close this what this in the category of a of of a waiver uh and again when be reviews it you guys review it if you see issues you're going to raise issues yeah it I I think that's proper characterization from we're we're showing it graphically surve something seems to be close you're going putos to something that's in the middle they're providing just in a slightly different okay good all right 35 let's move on uh the next item is showing gas lines uh for for the for the property they said don't add it but they would like to add it as part of a subsequent revision again I don't have a major problem with that again if you're going to be ending up changing some sheets anyway you may want to add it anyway what I had stated yesterday was that we were going to add the existing gas lines and existing electric that to the extent that we know it well you saying all that's coming out right just on Church Street really is the gas line that's the only thing to be added all the proposed gas electric LS will be designed by the respective servicing utility and at such time as they do that then we can addit to the plans but I'm not going to show a proposed electric line buried underneath uh the extension of central Central Station like it's called now um and say I'm going to put a Transformer here and there because I'm useless with that that that's going to be BG's determination JP the JCP sorry well eventually that information has to be on a plan that the board is looking at um or signing offline at least um I understand their dilemma because they needed a detailed design from the utility company uh typically on a site plan the applicant proposes something um and if if something Chang as a result of it we've had this on a couple site plan applications in the burrow where Transformers were proposed in one area and then it turns out that they don't work there and they have to move to a different area that requires changing the parking lot layout or putting an island in or something else Landscaping rooms Landscaping items and and and whatever um so um can I make a suggestion why don't we make that a condition of the first certificate of occupancy at that point all the utilities are in we'll do an ASU plan and we'll submit that to the so you know exactly where all those lines are well we can deal with that approval time that would wa at this point and then it becomes a condition I I think at the very least it's going to have to be something that would be before the board signs off on the plan I think it's it's got to come at some point where we have a set of plans when you say sign off you mean approved and that we sign a plan this is our this is the I think that's what he said well no he's saying something we're not going to have any there's going to be no utilities in the road by the time the planning board hears this now a proposal on the plan of where you're going to put them they don't have to be installed we're not putting them jcpnl is installing their lines and their Transformers Elizabeth Town G is installing their Mains and their lateral we're not doing any of that but I know we need to know where it all is there you go so I'm suggesting we make it a condition of the first CEO because I'm positive by the time I go to John for my first CEO everything's done there's no question about it it all has to be done by then what happens if um what Bob just referenced before sometimes where they want to put it then changes the configuration of a parking lot or whatever what happens if that happens that's why I can't do the drawing to down here whether it's whether it's going to be a condition of approval to co to understand what if it changes your plan and we've given you does it's that's not necessarily that's not that's not it's on the road but where they go on the road could affect other infrastructure that you're bringing in okay but their conduits are not gravity driven they can move their conduits around as need be their Transformers if they say I want to put it there we're going to say no that's a parking space you find another place for it if they have to do a bigger Transformer in another location just because they have to service four extra buildings because they couldn't put it where they originally thought too bad you're stating that whatever is approved you're going to tell the utility companies no and nothing's been to Chang we're going to give them our approved plans that show the water and sewer infrastructure that we're installing and then they're going to work around what's that and Landscaping and all the landscaping and then they have to put they have to fit their plan around the approved site plan we're say this is the approved site plan put your utility diagram together and don't mess any of the stuff that's already been approved and they will do that need to see the proposed gas and electric lines um even at um conent level they might be we're going to need to see the electric service Lin proposed lines where they might be you're saying you're going to tell the gas people or Elric people going to be here and then the Transformer is not going to be in the middle of the street no we're not tell be on the side of the street so you're going to have to put that on the plans where the Transformer can go without changing the plan I can't tell you I need one Transformer on the site or 50 we tell them where the utilities are that we're installing and then they lay their utility plan out and that's how it works and then they install it when we're doing the site work we're in there doing our stuff they come in and they do their stuff and it all gets done so I'm suggesting that as a way of hooking the board into being able to know exactly that that was all done that we submit that plan for the first application for a CO that's when everything's done that's when jcpnl made all their layout decisions where's the Transformers where's the mains where the lateral same thing with the gas company after they figure it all out they're going to give us those plans we will add their plans to Mike's plans of the work we're doing and now you have a complete as built set of plans of everything that exists underground that's plans will be after the planning board is signed off on the plans before right right so they won't be they won't be signed by this board but this board doesn't have jurisdiction over where the electric company puts their lines and the gas and the gas people do it provide a little bit of comfort if for some reason the gas company or and or the electric company required material changes to what our approved plans we would have to come back we got to come back that's what I was asking we got to come back no they would again that it's more for the application portion and what you feel at that point once you've actually looked and got your technical review comments I mean again we we've got a couple buckets here we'll go through all of them at the end but you know this is just get them to the next level so we could identify what still needs to be submitted in order for the board to hear this application the items that we're going to be waving if we get to that point tonight are waved for completeness purposes and the scheduling of a hearing if during that hearing you find you need something else like Bob said you can always ask for it and we could deal with it then but this is just to keep moving this forward so we can get to the next level yes I forget I was just keep trying to get easier and quicker take longer absolutely and we don't have many waivers I always said most of the things we're talking about here are temporary waivers that since some of them were going to be provided when we do plan revisions and it sounds like we're doing plan revisions all these things are probably going to be in that bucket for the most part we only have a couple waivers that I've seen so far and a couple items that have been provided this next item actually sorry just I was going to say before you go we've got a few items left on the ship we usually stop at 9 for a break let's finish the items on the sheet then have our break and then we can do everything make sense yeah let's go for that um 37 isn't this we talked about this this is the the storm water testing similar to simar to the PRI they're they're GNA just to reiterate they're going to provide their documentation that they file be uh and the fact that they have documentation from B that says that they don't have to do the uh the testing at this point we'll have to sort through that as part of our review okay excuse me second uh 38 uh is um they say they have the document they're going to provide it y okay yeah so that's like 18 um 30 39 uh well that's we talked about that that's the 50 scale drawing you're going to mark it up and say that'll be that'll be provided 28 um 39 they're saying all the trees on the site are being removed our checklist says you got to show justing trees on the site they're saying whatever is there is gone nothing is salvageable they're all crack trees put all new trees in find you were looking for to the on that are native to the area they're all on the nice trees plant listing now the landscape details are all there yeah there will detail the Latin name and everything technically we're we're we're we're waving that particular item checklist says you show individual trees they say we're not going to show the individual trees because we're going to take them all out that's a waiver show but they're going to show new ones propos plan right right okay uh item 40 they're indicating that's actually I missed it they're saying it's on the plan I didn't get a chance to look I'll take the word for it 4 is okay uh 41 is the truck turning template plan that go that would really go back to Jay yeah J you want to see a truck turning plan yes I think we should be able to demonstrate that these intersections can handle a single unit truck garbage truck uh trucks for movein and also a fire truck I was going to say fire TR yeah expect to see that public for sure that goes theck where you'll have it before the hearing yes just ask J can you send me your fire truck template that you want us to use yeah we'd have to uh confer with the fire department on that I just want to make sure you use the right one so I don't make a guess and get you upset no problem you won't get me upset Mike you never would only I do that's my job uh 42 is the um showing fire lanes and getting input from the Fire official uh they're asking to do that as a part of a subsequent revision um we think at some point the planning is going to want to hear from the fire absolutely we are going to need that for public hearing we usually um have the fire department does a letter of they've reviewed things so they're going to need to see that there fire marshall okay from that yeah he on it good well then we have that but we'll just I got it you share we'll share that everybody we have to make sure we capture just one person talking at a time so um so that will that will be submitted then they'll rather than changing the plan they're going to submit the fire Marshall's comments and we to the whole board as well especially considering the truck why don't you take a break maybe and we can sort through which buckets yeah I think only have yes that's that's the way I'm looking we're going to take a favor before the hearing at some point and totally wait yeah oh okay that was my turn yeah I take a break till 10 n because we don't want to start new business before 10: and we've got another item to do so um and then can we pause the uh recording please what time we come back yes we have five left all right everybody can't go to sleep the acly got really chilling we've open Talking way too much we triggered the AC change the um all right do we need are we um car's right away finish right away go um so ad I'm sorry do the next one anyway um right so we've gone through the list I'm guessing that's your test testimony as well as for completeness you feel that with the discussions we've gone through I'm presuming you would like to request de us to deem it complete I I would with the rors and conditions that we right we need to articulate those for the oh yeah finish writing because I know want to we need like a a Bas drum or something so you can follow I mean that that certainly would make it more enjoyable for you I don't know it's make any difference are we going to do this like one two three four five six are in bucket one or that's what I'm doing right now yeah 36 we usually put numbers in buckets we could explain them yeah that would definitely even make there you go bucket bucket I love I love that as a my favorites oh I I showed it to her I laugh hysterically at that to this day absolutely love it I will bring three buckets at my next We Will We Will Mark there I will stencil on the side We Know Karaoke I am but before we do that I don't know if we actually came to resolution I maybe we need to talk about the county and this roal conservation I don't know what bucket we're going to put there I kind of had a question mark on that I know we pulled the board a little bit but I don't know where we landed so I don't know where to put that well Adrian and I were do the waiver Mike and Brian were don't do the waiver Melissa was on fence and the chair never waiting is that okay so what I guess what we're g to unless you want more discuss I guess what we're going to have to do is put in in the I can make the list and see if it the list see who votes which way okay they might they might have been swayed I don't know different people might have been swayed one way or the other but all right so let's let's explain the buckets first all right so we've got three buckets we've got a temporary waiver bucket which is going to have to be provided at least well well how we've done it all of the temporary waiver items need to be provided before we schedule the hearing before the hearing is scheduled so they're submitted Bob confirms they're all submitted the board is notified I gives us aing dat that's a temporary waiver waiver is does not need to be submitted however at any point in time if the board feels after they've seen and heard the application that they do need it along with anything else like any other normal application they can ask for it and the okay bucket is we've got it it's it it's done make sense M I love it makees sense yeah all right so Bob you got yours too so we check easy and I know been working off numbers from the applicants letter but really ultimately we have to do this off the the checklist we're we're wav we're reference stuff in the check so you can read have well I got so if we go through these I can mark up I can mark up the checklist here where we have waiver granted or not I could either put a a c as being complete a tww as being temporary or a w as being and then I'll have a recording just look at the on having completes by them and then formulate what you're uh so the first one here a is your uh ES whole discussion we had about the escrow calculation and the escrow thing he has something on file with the burrow as part of the Redevelopment plan is the board going to look for something else or just you're going to carry on with with that agreement we're carrying on with that agreement okay so that would be basically a waiver well they're going to provide detail yeah y it's a waiver yeah yes sir I'll make sure miss kazinski has a copy of that escro really so if you have any issues that refers to yes thank you uh do was completed copies of application I think that has something to do I to go look at think with the signatures and stuff and that I think was a temporary you were going to provide that I think the same as your on all right so so that was one and then we hopped over to the checklist at eight right I'm just going down the checklist you're going to find that and the L bounce back and forth okay so what what item is that on the checklist is item date in his letter no that's fine can I ask question about these signatures question about the signatures which signatures the ones that b said that there were certain forms that required my signature that it wasn't on them can I just come in and sit with Eileen and go through them your box of them and whatever ones I didn't sign I'll sign right on the spot with that long as long it's on fire yeah is that okay how about I mean how many do we need just the one in the on file or do you need every single I just is I mean do they need a signat I I just need to know you have it that's all so one complete set of everything signed if e says she has say she has it then you have it set right you got it set so why don't you and I go through that tomorrow and whatever ones I've didn't sign I'm not here tomorrow but out and um you can come in and sign whatever you need to who you going leave just so I know's not here so we'll wait for you you back you back we do this later so like I said item a really if you start with um I'm with you I'm with you yeah the checklist item starting on page two of his letter that's that's where I need all right we're starting there are you gonna go over the entire checklist again or are you just going to rely on kavinsky's we're not going through the whole checklist we're just going to about when this should take we're just identifying what bucket these things fall in y um item Item B was the uh signed application form temporary wer y temporary waiver y um item e uh the Water andur that's okay they're saying it's okay uh item um G is escro agreement the waiver goes into same as the first bucket uh item H uh is the uh swords a companion one temporary waiver with regard to money only correct okay N1 and M was the uh n1's the county no M was um there was there was no and that's actually um we just put that away a category well discuss it which one isn't it if M ask was we using this letter and not the resolutions app resolutions applicable to the property certification of an Opa request was submitted Yad I would just call that a waiver we we all know what we know about this property we don't need to have it's a Redevelopment AR matter yeah right and I did submit the open request okay uh now you got the your County planning board and your Soil Conservation District a w w w you're going to put them in the waiver category and then you're going to vote and decide they vot yes cert tax tax certification we have it yeah it 15 from the L yeah so item o is on okay p p is the D on the soil Tes temporary waiver they're going to give us some documentation from the DP uh that says says what it says that they say it says I know have to evaluate that what it uh written verification on block and loot that's okay that's okay that's complete now the um the delineated floodway they're going to give us their they're going to it's a temporary waiver they're going to give us their the permits and they're going to document on the plan anything relating to those permits yeah is okay vial impact State we got so that's not complete um the Wetland reports they're going to they're going to provide that it's a temporary waiver yep for you and V right and the same with the the they're G to Temporary waivers they're going to give us a copy of their filing of the L with DP um waer requested we have it that's uh okay okay site photographs tomorrow uh traffic impact statement we are waving temporary waiver temporary waiver temporary waiver because they're going to provide the letter with the okay drawing or I thought I thought Jay was going to review it we submitted that's what we're talking about yeah we don't have what you submitted wasn't submitted to the board correct oh so we'll just get cop okay that's fine um survey the survey temporary waiver yeah um the plan revisions temporary temporary waiver would they graphic because you're going to be revising the plans anyway same thing yep uh reference Benchmark same thing same the next uh signing of the plan is you're going to come in and sign whatever you got to sign y um the scale we worked that out that's a temporary waiver that's going to be for the detail yeah okay this still a waiver because the the 50 scale won't comply um it's it's a waiver that everything we're recognizing that you're giving us a detail of the part we're recognizing 11 a iser uh we're we're actually waving that yeah we're waving cross-sections s line profiles a temporary waiver you're going to give us that but you're not we're waving the fact that it has to be on the same sheet but you're going to give us the profile yeah right um C line curve data you giv that to us or triang temporary waiver um 13 is done I believe the survey is is temporary waiver that's item 12 item 13 a building envelopes that's a waiver we're okay with that what they've done is yeah um the gas and the electric temporary is that the gas and electric joins no that's item number 35 in your letter it would indicate you add it to the next revision so that's going to be temporary but that's the existing gas service lines um they proposed we understand that you know you're going to deal with that at some point down the road but temp you're going to show existing and and I guess we any rision later I'm sorry temporary I got to look at where we are here 21 and 22 permeability test is going to be the D thing we're going to put that in a temporary waiver I had hold on I had 21 was temporary waiver 22 was wave no they're both the same 2ri one's gas and the 23 is the soil testing they say they have a letter from DP that says they don't need to do it now confus 20 and 21 wave or temporar wave temporar W temporary okay we need some Y3 W going to give us something from D yeah same with the same with 24 um 39 25 just is a waiver that's a waiver uh 30 signs they say it's on the plan sign yeah there's only one sign it's on so we're gonna say it's complet I didn't see it but they say it's on and they told us where it is on the plan um tuck turning templates is a temporary waiver they're going to give it something uh and they have something from the fire Lanes with the fire mark they're going to provide that put a temporary waiver because we don't have it but they're going to provide it got the letter that he submitted so we'll take a look at that saying that's that's okay saying that's complete y right so motion and a second to Grant the temporary waivers waiver and waivers as outline so move I have a second from the board second thank you that's Brian yeah all right any additional discussion from the board based on the motion meliss you got your hand up again is that a definite off again I don't think that's I she has anybody from the board Mike Brian Melissa any comments before we take a vote I think everybody wants to be okay come being in person they don't speak um how about that apples um okay um then let's um take the vote then please and on that propos yes may car yes Mr Sino yes Mr Campion yes gin yes Miss swingle yes thank you so much for your time this evening it was a lot right um was um in terms of date as discussed because of the tempor large nature of the temporary waivers we won't discuss date until we see movement on this going forward until they're all in and checked off all in and checked off and how much time I mean we always discussed having everything kind of submitted at one time instead of tomorrow have the survey and the next day we're going to have the D we're going to have may one or two extraneous but we'll limit to to limit and and put them all as and especially for the larger items that would need more of a techn review there are some of those in there we like to give us uh professionals as long as possible like don't submit those the day before any healing dat that we man to say right they have to be submitted of time also I think the question is how much time do we need submitted on when the clock starts the first well the first date that it could possibly be is the November 19th meeting and in order to notice for that what date would they have to notice for that we would have to have everything submitted before the notice well the fifth would be the deadline for the publication in the Democrat be honest we there's so much here we're going to probably start looking at it in detail before I totally I get it but in terms of formality having it for the notice we need to have it for the notice date let's put it that way so if you want to notice for the no think it has to be in that's a fair deadline right yes oh you want me to say something else no no I think it's I think we just let him go and let him get it in and I'm just giving you a heads up our goal was the 15s what's the 15 no me on the fifth day no our goal is to resubmit in the next week in October oh I'm yeah hold you're ahead of you're okay good we look forward to seeing it and your meeting in November is what 19 19 26 they're saying they're gonna have it a month in advance that's well I I can't speak I live in 45 days and at which point when we receive we will put you formally on the calendar how's that that's agenda is is it really let's let them get it in and then we can decide when they're oning it toight all right thank you thanks everybody thank you right next item itate public hearing National Pon spars I believe the applicant has um yes I have absolutely nothing to say about this app be sitting here in charging the application I I'm very jealous but feel free to go um sorry yeah National po SP the applicant has uh given the okay to delay they did they get a date when they wereing it's actually me too I'm should just assume at this point should I so we'll move we'll leave that to with no further notice do we like leave it move it um we would like to move it to the 19th next November um we're going to retain a planner plan right well you just saw what might be also on that dat so we'll work with the board keep an eye on it so I don't want to do this again but if you work you work with the planner then um we want to see all that documentation at their coming up as well would we are are they sub printing documentation before that work here or we could just do it on the day as testimony sometimes a planner will submit a plan it's not typical we're complain I forgot sorry if they have something they certainly can they can just all right we just announced Jay yeah I'm sorry just Jay also um do we need you for this one do you want to um sign off Jay feel free to if you wish yes I will thank you Karen have a good night everybody thank you all right everybody that should be here excellent all right let's move on then to it I'm sorry can we just make an announcement that the hearing on National pools will be adjourned to November 19th no further notice thank you all of the notices were reviewed and done jurisdiction right thank you very much you're welcome item n public hearing on 10 Main Street LLC application 20 2407 appeal of serving officer petition again Steve grinberg on behalf of the applicant 110 Main stre LLC this is our appeal of the zoning officer's denial of our uh request for a change of tency and a zoning officer indicated that the um office use of for the proposed office of uh state of New Jersey office of legislative services to have the district office receed assly woman Michelle Jew was not a permitted useing the downtown business district um the the property is that mainly Forester speaks I think we're all familiar with it fortez and hay building Aaron colon had has his office there and in the the downstairs floor with Benchmark Services um we are proposing to have the Legislative Office of uh assemblywoman drus in that and we believe it's a permitted use in his own um and I know that you have your board planers report um who reviewed the ordinance for you and indicated that the board could consider um the proposed use as falling within category 26 Andor 27 of your downtown business district um ordinance uh 26 identifies as a permitted use engineering surveying architectural accounting auditing bookkeeping research and develop management public relations and similar Services um public relations and similar Services we would argue is right on point with what an assembly woman's office does also under Legal Services um we're requesting that the board to direct the acting zoning officer to approve the change tendency application to permit this use for a legislative district office um I have Mr hay here to testify as to what the proposed use is but I I don't know if I need to go in to any more detail than that based upon um Mr Harrison M mcmanus' report um I would argue that it's it's pretty clear that this Falls with under public relations and similar uses I offer that test if you want to hear it I know it's getting late did we want to Mark things as um we do so uh all the notices are in order the board has jurisdiction to hear this application uh as we do we're going to Mark as exhibit A1 the applicants application and all the supporting documents we Mark as A2 the notice and the publication and the proofs and we'll mark as pb1 uh the planner board planner letter dated October 4 2024 thank you um we need to also note I think that um Council woman Taro um accused us but I just wanted to make that did that yeah so that there's no um impropriety okay if you want to hear testimony from Mr hay I can provide it but I you know I think it's PR Dar is it testimony about what what yeah it's simply what the proposed use is which is essentially what I indicated we you know it it's uh similar to all the other uses and it's been done in the buau before in the downtown business district it's um it's an appropriate public relations and similar service use aitt use to all right I just um wanted to say a couple things number one Beth never says that we could vote on this based on that what she says is these are what's allowed and she never says you can approve it based on that all she did was outline what the approved uses are and as a former assembly woman and state senator I will assure you public relations was absolutely not in my job description in any way shape or form and I did it he a lot longer than assembly woman ruless with all the respect to her um nor was being a lawyer uh part of my job description my job description was to legislate and to handle constituent issues not public relations um so I want to be very clear about that but more clear that nowhere in this document does Beth say you can approve this because it's that all she does is say this is what's allowed regarding what was done in the past uh with other offices downtown that was under a different zoning officer our current new zoning officer is uh strictly by the book which the council appreciates that he follows the letter of the law and um there are other buildings in town that are zoned or real office uh the council and this planning board are very desirous to keep retail uses downtown in retail buildings um I know that Mr he had a tenant desirous of going into the space who is currently located on stangle and when the office of legislative Services you know always offers more money than anybody else because it's not their money um it's always more desirable to have them in a space so um this is a desirable commercial retail space and um you know following the letter of definitions legislative offices is not in here and you know like I said we have other open off spaces in town including Victorian Plaza which rent and we' have be happy to have her downtown but not where we want more retail not present testimony then in support of the application I'd like to present testimony and support of the application like Mr ha to present his testimony okay you want to come up so Dave can you do you swear the testimony about to give us for is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you he can you tell the board um when you first uh owned 110 Main Street um I the building in 2010 and what are the present uses in that building it is all office space um excuse me please pull the microphone closer um my company is on the second floor and partially on the U third floor uh an attorney uh Aon Colton is on the third floor with me and we have a realtor in the corner River Valley realy what floor uh on the first floor on the ground floor and um Cortez and hay was using offices all the way uh over by the elevator on the first flooor for um closing offices during covid which are not really being used too much these days um and that's the entire um tenant so you filed an change of tendency application to allow assembly woman Buist to have her legislative office before the board correct yes up in the buau in that space where she used to be occupied by Benchmark correct correct and at that time the zoning officer which we supplied as part of the application just indicated that um not a permitted use without any further coma corre correct um your understanding about the the use of the uh space is that uh a assembly person is uh given an allowance for the hiring of stff to operate a district office and assist the legislator in constituent and policy board correct yes and this doesn't allow the conduct of any campaign or partisan political party activity in or from the district office that's actually prohibitive it is prohibitive and they consider themselves not either Republicans Or democrats for the services they provide to the citizens and the legislative business that they conduct includes assisting constituents and resolving problems at the state county and local level yes and they also meet with attorneys fiscal analysts and research analysts from the office of legislative services to develop and draft legislation correct yes um and that includes legal opinions on behalf of constituents correct they do that yes um they also meet with interested constituents lobbyists and advocacy groups to develop legislation for introduction correct yes is it a uh it's kind of a community centered office that engages in legislative business yes he also provide services to um the community in terms of property tax relief programs uh notary applications endorsement and issues correct that is correct and uh provide uh advice and assistance with unemployment disability benefits correct yes assistance with Business and Professional licenses and certifications that's yes um and general various services in terms of seniors veterans um general assistance including housing food and transportation first public corre that is correct um and it also includes legal services in terms of legislation on behalf of constituents correct yes um this isn't something new that's been done in the burrow in the downtown business district cor right I'm understand understanding there were other offices used yes and in in fact um former assembly person had her business her district office located in the downtown business direct previously correct um M mcm's report indicates that this does not fall within the category J as outlined in her report which is um a governmental office because in terms of the SIC manual division J public administration she admits that it doesn't fall within that use group correct in her report on page two and three yes um in fact in paragraph 3.3 B she says giving the apparent inapplicability of division J the board can consider propos osed office use under permanent use 26 Andor 27 and determine whether the similar Services reference appli to the proposed use correct yes um and 26 and or 27 is exactly what I quoted which is and she underlines in her report um management and public relations Services which he underlines and legal services uh Legal Services defined as lishments which are headed by members of the bar and are primarily engaged in offering legal advice and services correct yes and the assembly person's office will actually have legal consultant with the state legislator on behalf of uh the public in not just P Clemington but hunter County correct correct um I I think I I offer up Mr hay um for cross examination um but this is a use that a prior assembly person has had her office in the downtown business district in the same vein as what we're proposing here there have been three Assembly women who have had offices in the downtown bu area and one state senator actually two state senators all approved under different zoning officers all not following zoning so again you know I there are other buildings in the downtown area that are zone for office and the uses that you cited real estate and legal Insurance are all right into this into this use I have a problem if she wants to go in your second or third floor I got a problem if she wants to take retail space on the first floor but I guess I guess that's the problem mayor because um that's not the way your ordinance reads your ordinance reads right now that office use and these uses are permitted on the first floor so under the current zoning this Falls within the permitted office use and and I I guess I I mean your office when you were assembly person was on one map and it was a permitted use right but it wasn't but that is not Main Street retail but I can tell you mcconn donon all had offices on M all of them and it's in the downtown business district it doesn't it does it does matter because that's the zoning that applies and that's what your board planner has indicated that that's the zoning that applies it doesn't matter whether it's a downtown business district onle on Main Street or the downtown business district on Main it's the downtown bus District not withstanding that fact she doesn't say that it has to be approved because that is those uses are we we we are being asked to decide whether this particular use which is not expressly referenced in the cod as far as I understand I ask Mr Harris to stop me if I'm saying something wrong it's not expressly um written so we have to it's coming to us for an interpretation we allowed to interpret whether this use matches these uses because it's not expressedly written in these sic codes correct and just just to clarify it's uh an appeal not an interpretation but yeah sorry but but by yes by appealing they're asking for our interpretation of what that code means and whether whether it was applied whether we can whether we change the application of it effectively for this use right correct yep to other other ones we've done like this not being specific um and can I just ask you because she so um Beth's report references and in an item C she's she's provided that for us to try and see if this public administration SIC code description would help us in this case but she's she's her report states that it's actually not applicable in this case am I reading interpreting that correctly in a report that's correct right so then we're still so then it's the onus is on us to interpret whether this applic this appeal um matches TW any of the items in 26 or 27 when it's a legal service a public relations service an engineering service and Architectural service similar service servic or similar services and we have reviewed these kind of things before can I can I make a further comment you know we recently had a similar circumstance in another application where we had management or similar services so the fact that it wasn't specifically identified um in the retail management office as the letter of the ordinance the board recognized that management or similar Services applied under that circumstances I would argue that given the history of the burough in allowing other assembly people and the zoning officers recognizing that assembly people's offices are those type of similar services that that has weight and that it it only makes sense when you look at the purpose of the downtown business District as set forth my application but also in your your board planner's report that it identifies that the purpose of the downtown business district is to provide mixed uses of the traditional business and government center of the buau and that's why you would want as historically has been the case assembly uh people's offices in the downtown Business Center business and governmental Center of the burough um it's historically the way it's always been it's uh appropriate for the zoning it fits within those similar uses that uh are identified as uh permitted and there's there's really no difference whether that downtown business district applies to Main Street or Maple Street or any other place in the downtown business district as long as it's in the district that's what the zoning provides what has changed what has changed is that the mentality of both the council and the planning board once you see real well real retail on the first floors on N Street and we are moving into that direction and this does not get a planning board to plan for that it just removes one more space to be active from active retail and what happened in the past historically doesn't mean that we had zoning officers following what the intention was of the planning board and the planning board also perhaps wasn't following its own intentions it's a new day you know we are very intent on cleaning up Main Street and bringing it back to its retail Glory Days with a huge investment of the Union hotel property where people need need to have things and places to go OU Towners don't need a legislative office to be right next to that building it could be down like I said a Victorian Plaza it could be out where where at Plaza One it could be on Dave's second or third floor it doesn't have to take viable retail space where he had tenants who wanted to go into that space with re real retail or then Deni you so we know it's a viable space we know it's an attractive space and I for one want to see it be a retail space that is the wave of the downtown of the future what happened in the past is the past you are obligated to look at your zoning ordinance and you can ask Miss ksk as the way it reads now and the way it's been interpreted historically and right now that downtown business district allows for office uses on the first floor and in the past assembly people's offices your office included in the downtown business district has been listed as a permitted use and even though you may have intentions of changing the ordinance in the future to allow retail use on the first floor that doesn't weigh into what you're supposed to be deciding tonight and that's offensive to me that the office of legislative services and an assembly woman or man or Senator or any elected official would shove something down the Burrow's throat the county seat's throat that we find not desirable at this point that is offensive I don't understand how you can say that that's offensive when right now Mr hay can continue to have office use on that first floor in any other way there could be an engineering firm there can be a lawyer in that first floor there can be he can move his insurance uh his title company down there that's the zoning that you're obligated to follow at the present time and those items are listed on the SI and similar Services well we that's for us to decide whether we consider this used to be a similar service so it it's not a a slam down because your testimony seems to be suggesting well it's for us I I certainly for you to decide that's why we're here thank you have any other testimony no I do have other argument though then I I just want to highlight it that I why don't we why don't we finish up with any other questions Mr does anybody from the board have any questions for Mr Haye on this topic please this Brian Melissa Michael is still there I think I should I'm good you're good Melissa there we go I couldn't get unmuted I'm good H I'm good sorry thank you Mike I'm good just want to hear his other argument right okay thank you right you subm your there's no there's nobody I know just want let the record nobody in the public had a comment for this witness okay yes Ste this is an office use it's an office use that is very similar to all the permitted office uses in this Zone that historically has been allowed in the downtown business district that ordinance has not been changed and the fact that um you know it it historically has been allowed and and I I I think is highly persuasive that this use is always been considered a uh permitted use in the zone you have intentions of changing the ordinance in the future that's that's up to the burough Council and certainly that's something that you can do but it hasn't been done yet and you need to be consistent in your interpretations and the history of the way um assembly people's offices and downtown business district have been allowed and we would request that you direct the zoning officer uh to issue the change of tency form and allow this use to uh to be done in fir our appeal so your testimony mentions other assembly people do you have um any evidence to submit for testimonies of them I mean I think mayor Caro just but he was on the second floor okay mayor Carol your your office was on one Maple Avenue and that's in the downtown business register correct I mean I can present that testimony but you and you also indicated that there were other assembly people who were Loc so it's just verbal testing you don't have anything okay I'm just checking I mean I can present the the directory showing mayor Caro's assembly office he has got the T but that but that was then and that was the only officers plural our last one and the one before that who allowed it just like they allowed they allowed uh itions that violated our historic district they allowed impervious coverage in areas that wasn't legal they allowed houses to be split into apartments that wasn't illegal they allowed all kinds of stuff the new day new zoning officer who follows the letter of the law and I personally appreciate that it's law you know whatever historically whatever used to said historically allow and is a highly persuasive argument you know we had we have empty buildings all over Main Street we have buildings that haven't been used to their highest misuse we have empty office space fill it appropriately second third floors for offices Victorian Plaza which was built as offices Main Street historically was downtown retail you want to go for historical up until the 70s for 75 years this town was rigorous retail on the downtown until the mall started being built and now we're trying to get it back and this is this makes it difficult I'm just going to say that if you can see that assembly people's offices were previously allowed in the downtown business district it doesn't matter whether it's on the first floor or the second floor because your current ordinance does not make that distinction and therefore it is persuasive that your office and other legislators have had their offices in the downtown business district a permitted use all it means is we had zoning officers that were willing to just sign off on without looking at the letter of the law and what what our ordinance actually said that's all is IND indicative of another question Mr gri does the our ordinances specifically mention legislates legislators no it does not because otherwise you wouldn't but your it doesn't your plan your planner has indicated that it also doesn't include um that the proposed Legislative Office does not include the definition as set forth in J of the SIC manual and because and because of that the board can consider it to be falling within under categories 26 and 27 she say that's the only ones we can consider and and similar services and legal services because they are so similar yeah um okay do you have have any other points or testimony to when to close Okay um so any only rest of the board anybody have any questions or comments to discuss or should we get a resolution let's just any again just to make sure the record is is clear anyone in the public has any comments that they want to make you see any because I can't see them right now um there are two people on in as attendees but I don't see any the public wants to make a comment or as a question could you raise your hand use the raise hand function anybody in the room want to make a comment or question think I should be let's make a motion to close the public session yeah have a motion to close the public session please so move C second so then I think we need a motion right and then we can make a discussion on now what would the motion be because it's an appeal our motion would be to uphold the correct correct findings of the correct or not which language do we go to Grant or deny the applicant appeal that's what the motion so would we Grant the appeal you're overturning the decision make sure knows if you're denying the appeal you're upholding so the motion is to Grant the appeal as presented today by the applicant right that would be the motion I don't know anybody want to make motion motion that we deny the right and The Zing officer determination is there a second for that second okay thanks Melissa so we have a motion on the table so if we take a vote on that then we're deny so yes a discussion on that what that would mean right anybody from the board please Mike Brian or having qu uh discussion on that item please on that motion and and you know I just to kind of clarify it if anybody has any questions just let me know but again so what we're looking at is the specific principal uses are in 22 which is the offices for finance insurance and Real Estate Services 26 engineering surveying architectural accounting auditing bookkeeping research and development management public relations and similar services that one has that similar Services language in there as well and then 27 is legal services so what the board is deciding as as the chair said is in deciding whether to Grant or deny the appeal is essentially making a determination as to whether the proposed office use that you heard presented by the applicat council and through testimony and uh the historical information that was provided uh would fall within one of those right thank you so anybody from the board have any discussion they want to add please I just want to State for the record you know it'd be great to have her down in Clemington there are other buildings that are more appropriate that would be more desirable for the burrow to have used as office space rather than buildings that are so desirable to have retail space okay okay Melissa you have anything for me please no I I just Echo pretty much the previous comments I think it would be awesome for her to be in flamington again I don't know if that's necessarily the right seene okay and how do you feel about whether the use um as proposed is covered when the DB District's ordinance how do you feel it we had some discussion on that Melissa I'm asking you sorry I was trying to unmute myself again I I I don't think it is like I I keep reading the definitions and I just it's I don't see it I'm sorry I just don't think it's the right use speak on that um Brian you have any uh discussion no no I just thought you know downtown Main Street the whole goal is to to revive it um you know I would welcome everyone to want to have their own space but um retail is what we're focused on um if that's the goal so again I kind of echo with whatever what else is saying Michel Mike no I'm good okay right thank you right okay if there's no further discussion then I guess we're ready to take a vote can I can make a statement before you go to the vote um well we kind of we have I guess I guess I can't make a statement sir okay that space has been on the market for rent for a year and a half the Union hotel Pro uh is going in I have contacted a number of people to come in there to try to take that space in anticipation of retail down here no one is coming to Flemington at this point there isn't anyone looking to come in there because we have tried it's been listed with Realtors I've contacted uh Wineries and everybody that don't want to Comm in okay thank you okay that's all I'm saying I know it's a ni it's a nice thought to have all retail down there I don't see it happening itana Clinton changed their zoning to all retail on the first floor 24 years it took until they had it 24 years that's called planning I I can't imagine having that empty space for 24 more years let's let's keep focus on that because we don't know that for sure that's not part of our our we we're considering the the the uses as defined in in the ordinance and our interpretation of whether this use um whether this use is included in that list correct that's our charge that's our charge right now return all right um so Ian could we um call the role on the motion on the floor please mayor car oh let let's check which the is deny the appeal correct so if you vote Yes you deny it correct if you vote no you allow them to have the appeal that makes sense to everybody if any questions let me know mayor Carol yes Miss swingle yes Mr Campion yes Miss giin yes Mr Sino yes thank you for your time thank you yes s so long good night all right bye all right so moving on to item 10 good night every night um I propose I don't think this is going to need discussion given the hour especially um we kind of touched on it in the age um in the Liberty Village um I did reach out there was a question raised last meet that the form a that why why is it happening and we've um so I did reach out to I forgot his name kend kend I did reach out and I asked him to explain and he he did explain why they were splitting it up was that the current form doesn't match the actual ordinance or and regulations anyway um so they are doing it twofold to match what is in the ordinance and also um I raised the question of was raised by somebody at the board that they were worried about the um extra application fee because then by having two forms as we did did discuss with um liit to Village that then two application fees are are the same where we were previously only asking for one are required again apparently that was contrary to our ordinance we were supposed to be collecting two fees so it's not like he's changing anything by changing a form we are just aligning the forms with what was supposed to be being done and certainly with um with the consideration that the fact I did ask him to consider and he did give me just anecdotal evidence we could ask for more if we wish as a board but it gave me anecdotal evidence that basically for most applications that fee does in no way cover the cost that we actually expect so considering we want to save the bur from Bank rolling projects um I I certainly would think they would be minded to add change it to the two forms and they can they can collect the correct fees that they need um I did also say that we would put consideration of that fee if he could provide me with concrete evidence that of how much he actually spends and if if the fee is not enough that we could roll that into the discussion we're doing with the escos and the fees great idea um because if it's if we are not covering what we are expending then bur taxpayers are essentially supporting applicants which isn't fair yeah um so can I ask this was a discussion this morning uh between um the DPW uh Liaisons and and uh the department heads um kendel and and Mike Campion um regarding um you know what's involved in this and one of the things that they really stressed as as well you know besides going back to the two forums which a prior mayor I think two Mayors ago just decided to do told them to do one form and never read the ordinance and never talked to them about what this was going to mean the fact that you know if it's taking Ken a really long time to do calculations Josh couldn't do his part with the water because it was all in one form so um but all all of that aside you know the stress to applicants that they fill out this foret and you know and I asked this question at the planning board hearings before you know is there sewer and is there water and these are our two biggest Commodities that we have um we have the only capacity Super Capacity left in this County and you know water is a precious commodity we have 10 Wells we're going to be building two more and then we can't build we're out of space to build we're out of aquafer basically or good areas where there's you know good perk to build more Wells so you know we're we're limited on what we can do and we need to make sure that sewer and water go to Applications that mean something to this town what the people want in this town um they you know if we approve site plans um the DPW commit by ordinance has the right to deny Water and Sewer um so we need to be cautioning applicants that you know that just because the planning board is approving something doesn't give them a slam dunk guarantee they getting sewer and water it doesn't and they go in in to the sewer and water departments especially water um demanding allocation as soon as they get approvals and um you know the sewer and water department they were reviewing one there a prior application that was a d variance at this planning board last year it almost came to a lawsuit because the sewer the DPW subcommittee and I think it was the water department was leery about giving them the capacity and uh you know it got it got very testy very testy uh um with the with the town so is this but is this something then that should be being fed into our decision process if we if we can't it must be amaz if we can't provide them with the facility to build their project then what's the point of them going through the procedure that's a really good question well that's what the W serve letters are for and I think Bob's got to really weigh in on on that aspect of it because I don't know to what extent we have the ability to deny because that also could be a very fluid issue but it sounds like we're gonna have to come to the point where we have to deny because we don't have the capacity so I don't know how there to be some in that's not that's the problem is it's out of our jurisdiction but but warning the applicants is not out of our jurisdiction right we can say there's only there's only this much and remember you have so if you have a s plan approval or a subdivision approval that approval is good for extend period so we have to sort set it aside almost well or again applicants do a lot of things at their own risk and and whatever the case may be but you know you get an approval now in the hopes that you know something an approval then when you pull for your permits is when you then get assigned correct or you get extensions something for two years plus two onee extensions so essentially a lot of times you have four years during which you can hope that there might be something coming online for you to be able to use I mean it it happens in other towns where you know that less fortunate than this one you know it sounds like um if we can is there you say we've only got so much is there can we quantify that as a number or a percentage s capacity definitely we can I don't know about the water right I me we don't we we don't have two of those Wells on line one of them is permitted the other one we don't even have again mayor we have we have RVE updating our firm capacity right which will dictate how much water we still have available perfect Michael so then we'll be able to get that number because I'm thinking that if we basically we may may we may be only able to cover it because it's not our jurisdiction is put into the resolution the provision of water and sewer is not guaranteed and is at your risk at the point when you choose to pull the permit what's available right when they supposed to have that certainly can I mean honestly at a certain point there's only so much spoon feeding you can do in after I mean they need to understand you know if they're going to be sophisticated enough to come in here and get an approval they need to understand everything that's associated with it but that being said um you know we certainly can I don't know the people that are going to understand that are going to understand it people that aren't aren't so I have no problem putting that in there I have no problem you know making that now standard you know condition that you know this is something that they have to go and get um Bob covers a lot of that in his technical reviews also you know make sure you have this so I we kind of do along the way but to add that extra added step I don't G have that for us uh we asked them for the update on Thursday um hopefully we'll have it this week or next week oh okay okay I just think that's something worth keeping in mind of how much we have and then because it's certainly it it's like um it's it's it's just a it's a non-negotiable we can't P pull water from somewhere we can't pull sewer umac from somewhere so when we keep being told by certain people who are still St on a report from 10 years ago that we can add more and more housing to this time right but basically we can only add it up to the point of the the water capacity my question Cara is it possible to assign capacity to various zones like the rout 12 area where we want to see some big box can we assign sewer and water capacity that would be more of a planbody do legally if we could do that in that way we would know restrict it to a certain you get what we really want which the people all say they want which is entertainment PE box blah blah blah and and we had a housing subdivision coming in at the same time somewhere you know take right and but it it was zoned for 12 and it was guaranteed that they would get capacity for something fabulous or Park Avenue um you know the old day auction is all zoned off this I don't know what they have but if something fabulous came in there with the new Zone z um then at least we we'd have it there for them and we couldn't be forced literally to just give it to some other site yeah see do that yeah I'll talk to Beth about it and see what uh yeah because I'm not sure that's legal I mean I know we could like Zone we can legally Zone liquor licenses to different parts of this town that's zoning that's about about also a limited it's also a limited thing I don't know if you can Zone utilities that's really what you're talking about as opposed to zoning I'm talking about zoning Commodities not utilities you can call I mean they technically legally are utilities but they're really Commodities in this town and they finite that's why they're Commodities yeah you know it's not like we've got unlimited you can do fruit but it's it's just it's a good thought it's a good I that ties into the whole thing yeah so we did have a discussion in the end sorry but I was just to say we'll move ahead with what the sewer and water department are asking for in terms of that form after the discussion we had last time okay all right shair items gonna be really quick um next meeting is October 22nd um I'm actually not going to be here so Jim will be running it Jim probably doesn't know yet because he's not here today but he'll be running meeting um we have the public hearing for the hcdc I think that's 111 Main Street isn't it if I um and then possibly the ordinance for the HPC M because Council are going to be discussing the HPC introduced on so then we can tie up if there's anything coming from that we kept that in OB bance and otherwise we can just push through that which was for the master plan element wasn't it that we had to fix remember be said we had to fix something that could be done okay um sorry Ellen we're not I don't think we need to talk about esies tonight right now if you don't mind um we'll keep that next time or I'll try and put something together going to be here no I just wanted to get that out and just I appreciate the work you did on I we talked about it earlier I just pull together a list of what the recent esos have been what's left and I think it's just a useful document anyway um item 12 bills bills were circulated just before the meeting so can I get a motion to audit the bills please can I get a second I'll second thank you Brian yes Mr yes Miss swingle yes thank you all right thank you do we need to go into executive session we do yay um so okay motion to adour all in favor all all right see more of you in person next time thank you very much for your time bye switch off good night good night sorry yeah