##VIDEO ID:PzyWKl0y8xQ## good wait if I can a second for Todd to do our emergency come back maybe you should should we all right i' like to order theet this special meeting of the Flemington board thank you um excuse me Karen can you pull the microphone closer please absolutely sorry we add feedback earlier and I moved it away can you hear me now no I'm not talking to this one am I not really is that good better better thank you that yes thank you thank you thank you all right um so please rise as you able for theice um okay this meeting is called ass to the provisions of the open public Mee reasons that both adate and electr this meeting has been provided by way of publication actually I what date was um um that would be let me just double check that was the 24th September October 24th um was noticed for this special meeting October in the 100 in Democrat yeah okay just in the Democrat yes okay so adequate and electronic notice of this meeting has been provided by way of publication in the hunon county Democrat on or by October 24 2024 in addition notice of the meeting was posted at the B of Flemington Municipal Building located at 38 Park Avenue and any handicap accessible entrances there too posted on the municipal website provided to the municipal close and distributed to all persons if any requests in copies of the same this meeting is being recorded with both audio and video and maybe rebroadcast this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching the decision and a quum appropriate judicial hearing must be maintained at all times um first of all I'd like to thank everybody for being open to the dates and getting us to achieve this special meeting tonight on the board um if we hadn't it was M it's all on me because if I hadn't canceled last week's meeting thinking we had no agenda items then we could have used that date but um I pulled the trigger a little soon on that and then we couldn't get that date back so the only reason for special meeting is that I canceled the last meeting then I didn't realize that the subcommittee was ready to present so then we had to do the special me nothing famous about this special meeting it's just because the last board me so thank you everyone for being open to that and getting it together so quickly I thanks for your work on that too appreciate it um okay so as such we do have a small agenda it is for one particular item today but um we always start with item one which is public comments um I need to do roll call First yeah oh my gosh you're right sorry I missed the roll so apologies let's do roll call on before we get mayor Carol here councilwoman fararo here Mr Campion here miss giin uh Mr Hill here Mr dashna here Mr cook here miss whitesman here Mr simino here miss swingle here Mr eckel is excused Mr sh here miss kazinski here miss mcmanis here and Mr clerico and Mr Troutman are excused all right thank you great number of people appreciate it so item one on our agenda as always is an um time for public comments um to say as we usually do that this is for public comments for items not on our current agenda so it's a strange one but that's the way it is so does anybody um have any public comments for something that is not on our current agenda may ask question OPP we just have the name name and address please for the recording I can't hear that sorry robinus executive director of the Flemington Community Partnership and Flemington improvement district thank you 50 stle Road okay so my question is is there another public comment session about the relevant topic for the special meeting right so it wouldn't normally be I'm not we're trying to find anything because what this and if I say anything wrong please jump on let me know but what this meeting is for is a subcommittee has been working on on this document and this is for the subcommittee to present to present to the wider board for their comments on what the subcommittee have been doing to generate the doc we will then send the next stage in this process and that point they have to hold the public hearing on this this is not officially this is not a public hearing right on this issue I understand we've been asked to do this by Council and we and subcommittee of this board has done it some some of the board have been working dep on it sent to all the board and this is the time for the board to say hey what were you thinking there I like that bit we died on so can you explain this and then it can be discussed between us where we feel it need to go whether it's ready to go to be sent so normally we would not have public comment in this situation I understand okay but um I guess what I would like to do at this point then is ask the board whether we feel minded to add and I would if if we did allow this I would suggest it would be best done after we've had our discussions on our thoughts I disagree time for comments look I I disagree about having comments after the fact because that would be precedent setting we've never done that before and then every time we discuss something we're going to end up having to open it up to the public for comments it's very difficult to hear you guys so you know so I don't agree about having comments after the fact and I think that it's premature I mean nobody's seen this except for the planning board so I don't know what the Public's going to come like they should listen to the discussion and you know and then we don't even know what this document is going to end up looking like because the planning board hasn't you know had time to talk about it they've just gotten it like a week ago so for you know I mean I don't know what kind of comments there would be um now and afterwards again it's precedent setting if we start letting people comment on a work product because we've never done that and I for one don't don't want to start entertaining having you know that kind of dialogue Forever on the planing board that's that's me this is one person's opinion right yeah I was I'm taking a different from getting the same place but from a different from a different perspective uh uh this it's not the point in the process for public comment on Prop on a proposed there is there is there's not a proposed ordinance that council is in uced on first reading that has come to to planning board yet there will obviously we're talking about an ordinance there is there is an opportunity for comment at the council meeting when they're considering the ordinance and I think that's the appropriate place for that um drafty drafty draft but right and and I I I would I would just say that you know it's not a it's not a question of not wanting to hear from members of the public it's a question of where it fits into the process and the process for public comment on ordinance happens at the governing body um unless it's dealing with things like a change to the cop plan or something like that where the planning board is the entity that's holding the public hearing so I I would that's my that's I'm agreeing with you coming at it from a different perspective but it's the same idea three reasons yeah I mean I totally agree with I totally agree with you I mean there is a process in place to do it and it's this is so drafty you know that I it's for me it's like way too premature for the public to comment it's even I me even the council doesn't know what's in this document other than what I've told them so and I don't know I honestly do not know how it's gonna end up we don't know what's goingon to happen tonight or over the next course of a couple of weeks um when the subcommittee goes back to address whatever said tonight so with with all due respect my comment then is that we uh we've been asked unofficial and our businesses are talking and our landlords are talking about zoning changes um in general and how that impacts us and what are Market realities what are we facing every day um so as the representative of the businesses I was encouraged to have an opinion on uh this and all kinds of other matters related to zoning and the match between the market our landlords uh what we need to do to get to where we want to go so that's why I'm here tonight I'm really happy to listen to this conversation and I'm sure it'll be a good generative conversation we just want to wherever it is appropriate to make a comment make a comment I might suggest last year when we did the sub committee we invited you in on one of the ordinances specifically to talk about the as District so it would be I think there's an opportunity when the subcommittee gets back together again absolutely to have you come and join us to talk about whatever so I'm here respectfully to say that we want to be engaged and we want to engage in the conversation so that that's it and I I'm glad we're I'm glad that I was made aware of the special meeting and that we're here and uh we wna we want to have a dialogue and and I love and Mr D said we we we want to welcome comments but we we have a process that we have to go through and there's not say there isn't there won't be we expain there will be time for that to happen and and I think you listening to the discussion is very helpful too because you can see how what what comes up and how this process go and what all the board members feel about this topic thank you Beth can explain she part her she will explain why we're doing this and how and what process we're going through and there is within the process as we explain outle time for comments and the people to be involved absolutely thanks thank you all right would that be do are any other I don't see any online I I don't see any hands raised anybody else in the public have a public comment at this time okay seeing none and we going to May comments please oh com yeah want to do a very brief um parking committee update um that the parking committee uh has through the council and the council asked that the parking committee take this on um to review and look at the speeding and traffic uh controls and safety features that could be uh placed on M Street as we're working through everything else uh adjusting traffic timing and parking issues and getting surveys of our Municipal parking lot and talk about reconfiguring that and all this other stuff um Jay has been asked to take a look at M Street because of U it is reporting the police department the highest rates of spe in the town none from Flemington by the way everybody they pulled over is not from our town uh not a surprise here um but we have multiple a lot of complaints about near misses and um we are looking at um multiple locations for potential three-way stops as well as I can never remember what those things are called but the um crosswalks where you press the button and the light flashes like crazy to let somebody know that somebody's Crossing U we're looking at those as well um in a couple of locations so we are trying to make M Street a much safer environment hopefully you know all this cost money so you know we're looking at the 2025 budget uh to cost versus stops or just the cost of so that's it have we I just just a question because I was trying to think of how many free weight weight stops do we have like how many non oh a lot there still as you drive around I keep thinking it's a lot it's a lot I mean we've had request from Broad Street for example people are requesting now after the success of the four-way at Williams Andro people are requesting that Bloomfield Andro be made into a threeway um we haven't gotten there yet but um you know on on M sheet for example we could create a three-way copper mine um atal Walter what about Dewey what that say we're looking at that one to help people get to St Max we're looking at stangle Road as as a potential threeway uh and and Park Avenue that's where the near misses all are and stangle I know that I mean just as as side I know that that the council was working on the parking study some of my neighbors have were on the school route and we're not a four-way stop so I know that some neighbors were asking you know how do we get a four-way stop I'm sure they've come to you well no they have we have we have a request about New Jersey Avenue and Elwood about Mak that how many former Council council president of flomington and longtime planning board member Mary mie said when I was C president I made the entire town 25 mile per hour speed she like you're gonna end up making this entire town in three I'm trying not to but it's people make difference arguing about people actually are requesting these for safety reasons so um you know do have a high rate speeding and the police have been tracking it that little light with the speed um limit thing is actually tracking the speeding and um you know in in order of speeding it's mine then from the road they've done so far it's mine and then um Park and surprisingly where people were complaining about a high rate of speeding on Brad and Bell because of the traffic calming of Bell Street and the fact that they have two- side parking the four-way stop where there's you know people don't park as much on both sides of the road has really slowed down the traffic because when you go further down in this parking on both sides it naturally comes you down and it's not a surprise that mine and park only have parking on one side of the road so it feels like it's larger and people yeah if they're looking at everything I don't need to make the request I mean just being on on well it's being on the school routes it's it's we only see that type of traffic from 7 to 70 and there was a pretty bad accident there there was always in my corner yes because they they almost to I mean their kids they're trying to get school at 7:08 so well the issue is not the 708 the issue is the 728 when they're laboring yes yes I will I'll mention that the next part we are we are open minded to look at all this but we're taking the ones that are the most danger I mean again I think there's there's pros and cons right because other folks have said but if you make that a stop we will back all the way up to Broad Street because there are that many cars in the morning stopping and going but I don't know I don't know what the right answer is I'm glad we have professionals looking at it yeah we definitely relying on Jay to look at all of this doing I mean a really great job and and kind of going above what we asked you to do originally well one of the other things is the you know the North Main traffic light I should bring that up so we started out with the North Main traffic light requesting that possibly there would be a left turn only from fan Boulevard onto Main Street and you know Jay and my Campion Who's online right now reported a very high price tag um to do that that it's not just buying an extra light that's got a left turn arrow uh there's a lot of engineering involved uh it's a whole new mechanism that has to be installed and I and there was Mike and you can interrupt me but my Rec lection was it was somewhere between1 and $200,000 way out of budget um to put in that left turn light so Jay started um adjusting the timing to allow more cars to get through hoping that that would alleviate the situation and he said at the time when school reopens this was in the summer when school reopens I'll be able to tell the timing is right so now he wants to adjust it again and he wants to get it back to the original timing because it worked when it was first erected but um the original timing diagram has been lost to the burrow but it was done by our former traffic consultant chadol so Jay was going to reach out to Jud who apparently still answers his phone even though he's retired to see if Jud has a copy of those original timings somewhere in his files um so they don't have to be redone because to redo those timings a lot of work well it's a lot of money a lot of work equals a lot of money so absolutely we're hoping that he's gonna that J can find them for us and you can get the timing right and uh and see if that works before we invest the money in the next the next very expensive step which is the left turn I we all acknowledge that that light is a problem um we want if you're on if you're on if you're on fan Boulevard and you want to make a left turn to Main Street all that traffic coming across park has right way and it's impossible to get more than one or two cars through that's it it's it backs up a lot a lot a lot especially during rush hour so in lunchtime um so better right now after He adjusted some of the timing he did it by hand and by his um his knowledge and his craft uh but it's still as he acknowledged it after school open it's still not right better but not right so well hopefully we can get that information that sound great heard a lot of anotal evidence of some all right no let's move on to council comments for a Ken my com I'm on the same uh committee I said with Mara on that and my comments are right in alignment with that so nothing additional thank you okay thank you um HPC comments we had a meeting on the 16th of October there were no applications but I did want to mention that the HBC uh was sponsoring a free historic walking tour which is this Saturday um the tickets went in less than 24 hours so definitely a big interest uh it was it was advertised on a vinbrite as well and it's free so uh sounds like they're going to have really good too so great great effort Chris pel is going to be the one that's given the tour wonderful yeah that's it um professional reports um professional with oh car is online sorry do we have any reports other than what we're going to work on today no no okay great um all right item six approval of minutes from October 8th 2024 Meeting those were distributed by EA um does anybody have any comments or queries on them or any additions or admissions they want to make changes no I they look to be perfect so ien can can I have a motion to approve the minutes we had a lot of people cap from that meeting so maybe e should say who can vote all right good idea M El you're muted oh I'm sorry I couldn't hear the the motion in the motion well before we did the motion um who can vote V vot A lot of people abent at on the minutes I yeah I can't I couldn't hear the the question yeah if you look at the if anybody has the minutes in front of them the present the people that are listed as present have the ability to vote and can make a motion in second read well the read the Nam the people that were excused uh were myself Mr dashman Mr cook whitesman pel and Sh sh Echo and Sh so those people cannot go so I'll make the motion s second all right so anybody that do call will have to abstain if they were not present at the last meeting um mayor Carol yes councilwoman fararo yes Mr Campion yes Miss Giffin yes Mr Hill no dasna abstain Mr cook abstain Miss whitesman abstain Mr simino yes thank you very much thank you sorry about that all right let's move on to the main uh reason for being here tonight which is item seven the ordinance discussion so this is for amending the zoning ordinance for the DB and db2 districts as so I'm gonna ask M mcmanis to give us an overview of why we did this what we did what was the viewing point where it's coming from and to lead into our discussion sure I'd be uh I'd be happy to to lead folks through this so uh just big picture there are two ordinances before the for the board for discussion the first is an amendment to the DB the downtown business district the second is an amendment to the db2 the downtown business district or downtown business 2 District uh the committee was uh I guess restarted as a result of concerns about inactive uses in the downtown and uh and and also understanding that that was one of the issues uh address in our master plan and so the planning board uh created the subcommittee of uh a handful of folks here uh and on on Zoom to go through the permitted uses for these two districts and the charge was to address the permitted uses of the district there are some minor I would say smaller recommendations in the master plan and and perhaps other things that that might address bulk standards and other other aspects of the zones but the intention here was to really deal with the most important issue which is what are the permitted uses in in the district uh now and how should they be revised and so the ordinances really do two things I would say first they eliminate all of your sic codes and so as part of that regardless of what the of what the final permitted that are I say I would say that this is a modern modernization of your land use ordinance that I think is becoming more and more necessary every day for for a couple of reasons but I'm really pleased to see that for these two districts we've we've eliminated that and it's and that's a continuing Trend we did that for the TC district and I would recommend that we do that for any other uh District in the Burl although they really apply to just your non-residential zones and so the other thing it does is is uh for both ordinances but for uh in different ways it eliminates those uses that are that the subc found were not beneficial to the downtown and it also creates uh uh a bit more I don't know categories if you will in the sense that we have permitted uses throughout the district permitted uses on Floors that are not the first floor and then we have permitted conditional uses as well and uh and all those have been addressed in here package that was sent to the board includes an overview memo of course the ordinances that are subject to discussion as well as a land use map trying to give a sense as to where uh specific business types are in these two districts and then I also included the existing zones uh just for some information and I will say also included in the memo in addition to just providing an overview of what the ordinances do I also provided a handful of definitions that I thought would be helpful uh to folks you don't have to go hunt through uh the land use code to try to so unless there are any introductory questions I thought I would just start and go through the DB the DB1 District does anybody have any questions on what Beth said already just because I want to make sure everyone's understand them before okay good yeah okay so let's start with the DB one District this is of course the um the uh uh the Bro District that predominantly encompasses industry uh and so it's really the downtown area uh and so what this ordinance does is it first updates the purpose of the district I think to provide a bit more description and presumably assistance to the board as you consider applications in this Zone district and so the amendments are intended to uh reflect the desire for an active mixed used area that is inviting in part of your downtown walkable Etc something that can really be of service to your residents as well as Ser as a destination for folks outside the bur and then after that it goes through the permitted uses I think as is pretty obvious the first uh or I guess the second page of the DB district is is predominantly just deleting all those existing uses and then on the third page of the DV District that's where we begin the 16 uh new permitted uses now while every single use here is new it's newly listed it's it's new text if you will and you can tell that by virtue of it being bolded and underlined I will say that a lot of these uses that are now listed are not actually uh new to the district they've just been recategorized so instead of for example um instead of for example Flores of uh SIC code 5992 we're now permitting retail sales retail sales encompasses Flor so just because you don't see the term florist listed as a permitted use does not mean it's not permitted it's just under the umbrella term of retail sales and there are um a variety of examples in there another example is uh it's Dan Studios that's SIC code 791 but one of the newly permitted uses is Artisan Studios that specifically includes dance studios as well so uh many of the uses that are permitted today in the DB District continue to be permitted I think some of the uh more noteworthy changes are the distinction about where certain uses are located so for example the permitted uses include uh retail sales throughout the entire district and that means on every floor that the that the building has and so if it doesn't have something about the floor location that means it's permitted everywhere on the property everywhere within the building if we go to the Second Use Retail Services uh that specifically is retail services on Floors not including the first floor so that means that Retail Services which include things like uh like maybe a barber shop uh a shipping shop a shipping place or a photography studio uh someplace where you're going to receive a service right then and there as opposed to um as opposed to say uh a real estate office where your services to to purchase a house where but uh in in INB building service essentially is retail service and that is now uh permitted only on the upper stories or perhaps a basement if that's applicable to the building uh those upper story in basement but I think in reality largely upper story uses those other uses include health and fitness facilities Higher Education and Training Learning Centers uh Apartments although that's not a change uh that was uh existing standard also uh offices and medical offices are now permitted on the upper stories as well um and in term and and the other permitted uses include things such as those art studios I mentioned uh I'm sorry I think I failed to mention artison manufacturing is also an upper store use uh other permitted uses include artison Studios breweries indoor Recreation theaters um and Municipal uses municip I include in every Zone district and then there are a couple other uses that I think are worth noting and that is uh funeral homes and single family homes both of single family detached specifically both of which are permitted if they exist today so if you have a funeral home today if you have a single family detached home today that will continue to be permitted um and then of course we have a combination of all permitted uses is uh is permitted that to is not changed from the existing ordinance um and in terms of changes to permitted uses especially I'm thinking uh most notably about those uses that uh that exist today that will not be permitted I want to be very clear that even though the zoning ordinance may change and it might state that the use is no longer permitted that does not mean that any particular business must exit the building that they must relocate their business to another location there's a a grandfathering provision if you will essentially that allows for existing uses to remain if that existing use is going to be uh reoccupied by the same use that is also permitted but if it's going to change from let's say um uh a lawyer's office to uh to a barber shop that would not be permitted because both of those would be upper story uses by virtue of this ordinance so there is uh some protection built in for those existing uses through the municipal land use law but that b you want questions as you go let me just get through the accessory and permitted because they won't take as long as the or accessory intial for the accessory uses uh there's one change which is I added language that I think is very typical and and that is simply any accessory use which is customary and incidental to the principal permitted use I think that's very helpful it just means that quite frankly just because it's not listed as the accessory permitted accessory uses in the district does not mean it is not permitted and this also takes pressure off of all of us to make sure that we list every single potential accessory user structure that could be appropriate uh and then the last section for the DB1 District are uh conditional uses and uh many of those uses those uses that I indicated have been um uh have been moved to the upper stories or not the first floor as a permitted use there is a conditional use that would allow them to locate on the first floor however uh the conditional use essentially requires that it not be located on Main Street that's the that's the the bottom line for this language is it uh it allows for them to have an entrance on Main Street to get to the upper stories or otherwise they need to be located on one of the side streets such as such as mine or perhaps Williams street where the DB District actually uh may have a couple of properties down the side street or there might be a property large enough that there's a portion of the building that is entirely oriented to that side street and then the the last conditional use is uh to allow single family homes uh in certain areas essentially north of caver Street and south of William Street uh and that is that was done uh to sort of recognize uh the single family buildings and single family uses that loc that are located in those areas so that's my my uh my overview of the DB district and I'm happy to take any questions before we just go to to's question could you just speak to why we're doing this because I feel like it's a toold thing I feel like we have request from Council but also it's something that's been in our master plan can speak to that sure I'd be happy to so the so the master plan now for many years has been talking about the need to uh better to have a better activated Main Street so a main street that is full of uh what I often refer to and I think what this memo refers to is active uses so uses that that are from from a literal perspective are having folks walking in and out of the building throughout the day as opposed to uh if you think about one of the uses that has been relegated to the upper stories or perhaps the side streets as a conditional use Office Space where folks are generally speaking going in to start the day perhaps leaving for lunch and then uh coming and going for lunch and then leaving at the end of the day as opposed to a a store or a restaurant where folks are coming and going uh throughout the open hours of the shop and so uh one of the things that the master plan has done is talked about the active uses has expressed concern about office in particular which is which is uh I would say generally inactive use and it does not contribute towards the uh the concept of flemington's Main Street being a destination for for visitors to come and shop and dine uh or for the ability of residents to shop and dine in the downtown so just from a question perspective and then we can do comments later um from a grandfathering perspective if you eliminated if we've eliminated sic codes so um your example of you say a law office to a to a barber shop for to a barber shop however a law office to any other kind of office because office is its own category right now an office is an office is an office regardless of what it's use for other than medical any office is an office and any indoor Recreation is indoor Recreation but because you have those definitions so G so yes you couldn't go from a lawyer's office to a barber shop but you could go from a lawyer's office to any other office environment I am gonna par I'm sorry I'm gonna tap you for that because I think that she's going to be able to give you a more robust answer yes no problem um so it really is going to come down to how the use was permitted under the ordinance so since we were so specific originally if the permitted use was lawyer's office specifically and that type of use is no longer permitted let's say on the first floor but another lawyer wanted to come in and to continue to use it as a lawyer's office and not increase the intensity or the size then pursuant to the pre-existing non-conforming statute and case law they would be allowed to do that if and and I'm going to look and Beth maybe you can kind of well looking at it right now if we take a look at what was deleted we have specific spe ific let's see where we have offices do we have a general office yeah so it would say for instance offices for finance insurance and Real Estate Services okay I'm looking at number 22 so if there was a real estate office on the first floor and it that wanted to be changed to something that's not permitted here um or or legal services even okay even though that was permitted under the prior ordinance it has to be the exact same use in the exact same intensity once it's no longer permitted so we can't flip-flop here so even if the use was allowed before under one of the other sic codes I would I would say that we'd have to look at it of course on a case-by Case basis but the use would have to continue in the exact same fashion as it had been prior to the change in the ordinance I guess that's the best way to describe it so we can't kind of pick and choose so let me make a different example no so so that does put a burden on our zoning officer because he would have to know when the existing business was put in and when it left and what's coming in because other let me give you an example I I read it a completely different way so I'm glad I had that question um so I open up I'm an attorney I'm open up an attorney's office to after this ordinance is is passed there so I opened up January 1st it's an office on January 1st any other office it could be a political office it could be a an office for a contractor it could be any other office other than medical could spelled out because new ordinance says office is an office is an office however if I opened up an attorney's office today and then a um uh sign maker wanted to come in and have an office there I can't because it's going from legal to sign maker trying to think of things that are irrelevant yeah um I I I don't know if I agree with that characterization so let me say it back to you and make sure I'm understanding you correctly so you're saying right now if it's a legal office and then want it to be changed to another office under the new ordinance it would be allowed to do that and I would say it would then be subject to the floor restrictions at that point if if there are any associated with that type of use okay so if all of a sudden the use that was previously permitted is no longer permitted it can't be changed to one of the other permitted uses so let me let me take a different example that might be a little bit easier than go ahead but but a law office would be a legacy so a law office could stay as a law office could stay as a law office no matter who the lawyer is I that I absolutely agree with in its location in its current location as long as it stays a law office it could not go and be changed to one of the other yeah so the practice could be sold or the lawyer could retire and another lawyer could go into that space yep or a partner could take out any of those but the legacy is that it was a law office correct it could not once the new ordinance was adopted be changed Todd to your question to a real estate office however once the ordinance is changed if you open up a law office after the ordinance was changed it is no longer a law office it is just an office office use but you would be restricted to the upper stories correct if you yes yes yes no you're right now I understand your question now and yes we have now taken the restrictive sic codes and broaden them to say office so it wouldn't matter what type but is so so our zoning officer needs to really maintain an accurate or the FCP really maintain an accurate thing of When a business went in because if it went in prior to this ordinance it's governed by sic codes if it went in after this ordinance it's governed by all the use is set as to before this ordinance goes into effect whatever it is then that is the only use that it can be maintained at correct so I you you made a point that it was burdensome for the zoning officer I actually think that it's actually easier because it's the the only thing you can admit on on that lower floor would be something that's exactly the same as is already at car's Point correct correct right so that's simple are you are you coming in was this a law office say maybe we need to make some sort of assessment and write it down what they are right now as of that day write down what businesses are in and then that's a simple list for him we Define it as law office so would we have to do that so folks there's there's a process built into the municipal land use law to deal with this it's called a certificate of non-conforming use and so I think within I want to say a year yes one year Beth zoning change it is in every office every use that is going to be prohibited as a result it is highly in their best interest to apply to the zoning officer for the certificate of non-conforming certificate of non-conforming use it does not need to come to this board if it's within a year so it's great for us sorry to Mr rali uh could be more work but um but it's in their best interest to do that to avoid the question of what was what was there when was it approved Etc so that formalizes it what 1977 and do we have a phone book from 1977 right so you really would again the way back to 77 but like and again nothing sets precedence that the board does and and each application is different however some things that we have heard in the past because they didn't get a certificate of non-conforming use so when regardless of the good better and different the business Community would want to get certificates of non-conforming uses immediately following this because that will protect them if they want to sell their business so on and so for somebody that works with the business might want to make that clear to uh to any anybody that's reson so so right because I think that that did not happen with I I don't want to go it doesn't typically happen quite honestly I don't see that in a lot of towns where where property owners are rushing to then get certificates of non-conformity so it just it's a really great opportunity for folks but I I'm not going to fault anybody that doesn't do it because most folks don't so okay that they wouldn't have to go back years and years it would be at that day ex there and then then they would have to prove anything but if they didn't do that certificate of nonconforming use within a year then it opens up the C well they need that and yes it's it's much these are just I I don't want to debate that these are just clarifying questions that I had so the uh not including the first floor however we do have some basement we used to not allow anything to be in a basement no no stores no no services but based on the way this ordinance is written you could use a basement as a retail absolutely now I I will say that the caveat is that it means that they're going to have to meet all of the construction code requirements for Access Etc so the zoning doesn't uh doesn't supersede any of that but if they have a space that's able to be occupied for their proposed use from a construction perspective that's consistent with the zoning they'll also be able to do so okay and then when when we spoke in the master plan on active businesses so we're making a subjective the one thing that caught me for this were Services because I think services are more active than retail this is this was my question yeah so so we're we're saying that a a a service a barber shop I know you know Barber Shop hair salon nail salon um they are the most active uses that a municipality can see I have not seen them I try to go through maybe you could help us with other town I try to go through neighboring town towns I couldn't find anybody who had services off of the first floor yeah this can I can I add on that it's just a question this is my no this is my this was my question from from this is um the a barber shop if you've got three chairs going on a barber Shop's going to have 20 customers an hour coming in out of that door that's quite honestly far more active than a lot of our retail businesses unfortunately certainly more than a fine restaurant where you you book out 90 minutes for a table right um uh similar for a nail salon right would would I think would would would fit into that as well I think I know um things like um a dry cleaner right I know was listed here explicitly dry cleaner is another place where there is you know a small front end and a larger behind the counter operation but again that's very similar to a takeout restaurant where you've got people coming in and out on a regular basis and most of the activities happening in the back and in when we were working on the lus element you know I'm I'm remembering it as as Todd is saying that we were concerned about active use in terms of customers and pedestrian activity someone doing their and the way you said it before I think caused a little bit of a concern it's not just for the we want to bring customers from outside the town there is also an aspect of the DB and db2 that is serving we want to serve daily transactional needs of residents who can choose to do those by walking right to to from from their house to town and if I can go to the post office and the dry cleaner and get my haircut and stop at a shop those are all a series of active uses that I don't think we would want to discourage that kind of activity in there so that's I I I want to we can maybe have some discussion to where the commit subcommittee was coming from on pulling those out I understand like not wanting a law office on the front on on the ground level I absolutely am there with like we have Financial Services folks and real estate folks on the ground floor and as much as I like to see the real estate listings when I walk by with my dog it's not an active use right it's definitely not an active use we want to have it's not going to pull people in so I I want to is there a way we can parse those two things that are Services I think I think sub committee when we were talking about this I think there was honestly right now the snapshot in time there is a concern about how many barber shops and salons are in Flemington and that it just seemed to be like so many that it was worrisome I think it's something that the subcommittee would not really push back hard about putting back in um I just think it was in our discussion there they're just you are correct Mara you are correct they can get the non-conform in use and the ones that are there not talking about them they don't have to no I understand but again if we're trying to if we're trying to encourage not only folks from outside to come in but also provide services for residents these are the they're they're active right they're they're coming in and again I know that we have this the challenge that we run into this is not I mean every town has this problem is that it is a lowcost of entry for an entrepreneur to start a nail salon or a barber shop because because it is a it is a good business it's labor intensive the licensing requirements are relatively minimal it's the capital requirements are relatively minimal for some but it's it's an opportunity for a local person to run a business too right it's like that's there is not a good answer to right the the way but the way you say it Jeff when you talk about and you're right I mean Services can be a very robust um a very robust municipally wide um shop to bring people downtown including people who live downtown and you know this is one of the one of our issues you know we talk about we're have 205 apartments right in the center of Main Street and these people need not only things to do and places to eat and we're encouraging them to do that with the zoning change but you're right they also need to get their haircut and um dare I say go to a travel agent what is that um but um you know so I you know I the way you put it I'm very open-minded to putting Services back in I wish there was a way we could limit I know we can't but I wish there was a way we could say you know not every store can have a barber have a have a have a red white and blue pole in front of it right and and we run and we run to this problem because because the the the the reason why 40 years ago all of these ordinances are written with sic codes was a way to try to narrow it down and it's it's horrible from an enforcement perspective it makes it a pain in the neck and oh by the way we haven't used SIC code since 1997 so but 40 years ago what happened was we had first the Flemington Mall open and then Bridgewater coms opened and it ravaged Main Street the retail businesses were ravaged and so then the Govern wanted to find and the planing board wanted to find a way to try to keep the stores and the landlords in business and now there's been this you know this economic swing or Trend back you know 40 years ago going to Flemington South the states to go halloweening you know people were dropping their kids off from all over the county and Somerset as well because they could hit a thousand condominium in one night and now it's back in in style come into a little town and you know all these malls are closing and strip malls in Main Street could be a giant strip mall strip malls are back in style main streets are back in style shopping in small towns is back in style malls are you know gone uh because the kind of stuff that you go to a mall for you can buy you know online but the kinds of stuff that you find in small town and shops to be very very unique yes exactly so like I said I'm very openminded to putting Services back in as part of the discussion with the subcommittee um because our intention is to have that kind of turnover right and put the offices where they belong right right that's you have empty Office Buildings in town um including some beautiful class a space on M Street um and on Park Avenue they're they're empty or barely empty and because it's so much easier to be right Main Street so I think putting things where they belong and I won't agree with you that um it would be great to be able to walk right down the street and find question on this specific thing though on the hairdresses yeah could they be considered as they they do sell product as ladies we know go they be considered retail sales also so therefore they'd be they'd be allowed by that but but then we you know but then we're but then we're in a spot where a zoning officer has to start doing an assessment as to how much how much product is sold by the salon versus how much service you buy by the salon from an enforcement perspective it's a mess I was just wondering if that's is a really common accessory to a lot of uses like you see retail is accessory to office retail is accessory to medical office like you go to your chiropractor and you buy a pillow or something like that but but that make when we when we spoke about this and I think it was I forgot that that um Robin had participated during the Vas discuss I thought she would participate on more it was really to Define an active use right so what is an active use and and the only way I can Define it is people coming and going coming and going not checking in at 9: going out to lunch checking back in because the other thing that I that I questioned on this were health and fitness does that mean you can't put a yoga studio where people are coming in every day all the time every hour on the hour yoga and I say yoga maybe yoga won't be a thing in the future I don't know um but you wonder like like a gym or um are those considered active uses it was just really like what's active and what's not yeah so um so you're right though about the uh so we permit health and fitness facilities on the upper floors and or the basement um so yes to your question if you have a yoga studio or martial arts or gym that's going to have to be the upstairs or or the basement and and really unless there's like you had said I I know this is zoning and not Ada but real most of our buildings are not Ava you know up or down yeah I I could be wrong I don't expect a lot of basement uses but I do think there there is at least one building maybe a few buildings where being able to put a business or at least a part of a business on on the basement level is going to be very helpful um from a marketing perspective I think it's going to be a big challenge but from a zoning perspec I don't have any I don't think there's any downside to it provided they can meet all of the construction requirements in order to do that yeah and again I was just trying to it was sort of exciting to go through this and say active uses only but then I was like is that active or or not active and you think of a restaurant right who doesn't want more restaurants downtown but that's not very active especially if you get a restaurant that has a 90minut seating not yeah but destinations aren't they they're active in terms of destinations for the we yeah so you can't do clock right I was thinking about this could we come up with a definition of like you know uses that generate x% number of customers per hour and then then you get a fine dining restaurant which wouldn't conform so that clearly that doesn't work right dining restaurant is that most of the stores are closed at that hour so the parking spaces are all open on and you want uses that are I think this I me folks can tell me come wrong but I think the subcommittee is really trying to craft uses when we talk about active uses or first floor uses that are really complimentary to one another so you're you're going shopping you're going to dinner or maybe lunch and then you're going to stop at the at the brewery afterwards for a drink or you're going to go to a theater and then you're going to go to lunch or you're going to uh you know there's indoor Recreation so to the extent that somebody wanted to do uh one of these new arc uses that folks are developing sometimes you know you could do that and then couple that with some shopping and and some dining or you could drop your kids off of that and then you could go walk but could could all of these things that are semia active that aren't in allowed on the first floor the conditional they we were trying to get away from specific in other words think like when you think of like coming and going right the doors coming and going so it's retail obviously um uh Retail Services yes uh health and fitness facilities what were you thinking when you said semi semi active like like like some of these are like an office I when you had said it sort of triggered you said listen people have come in at 9: they close the door sometimes they lock the door then they go out to lunch and then they go back to the office that is certainly an office use I think it's quite Progressive to not allow off offices because I haven't seen that I tried to look at other towns that I think are booming and they they're booming naturally but we're trying to sort of force this issue right um and how about the vacuum theer guy who I love what about what is he he's retail he's ret but but I mean is he selling vum theer is he selling parts or is he doing a service he's doing all all right he's probably the most active from a definition what I was saying because I see conditional uses we were if you're in the back of the building if you don't face Main Street so so why wouldn't all of these be like why couldn't you have a yoga studio on the back door for example or or around the side porch as your door doesn't so there are some buildings in the DB District we we did discuss this quite a lot discuss a long time that we went to individual building that have their access is not on Main Street building is officially Main Street but that that particular part of the building is has an access buing for example they have see what I'm saying so so when we say first floor the other here's another real another question and this is I'm maybe I'm going down rabbit Hol here when we say first floor how how are we defining first floor because there were some several buildings the Deets buildings is what made me think talk about the Deets building where the first where is the first floor of the side you going right because because if you're talking about a building that has three steps above grade which we might say okay that's just a couple steps it's a porch no problem but if you got half a flight of stairs is that a sec is that a is that a second story through the back rightchange elevation we a very long conversation this at one of our meetings got and we've got you know we've got some of the other buildings that were some of the older so so the building with the chamber is now and then those series of you know those structures going north on that side of Main Street um all the way up to what I'll all the red vanilla building for lack of a better word um right those few houses that were converted houses that are now office spaces right predominantly like those all have porches so is that the first floor is that not the first that's the first floor yeah it's the floor that you're accessing from from the from the from the street Frontage the deeps building I want to talk about and put that in a different categ complicated yeah that's a separate that's a very special circumstance but if you're walking into the building you know just about every building in the DB District bases Main Street and you know you're going to walk up from the sidewalk essentially so if you're walking from the sidewalk through the front door that is your first floor and that's sort of an oversimplification but if you've got to go up six steps and that's the floor that is facing Main Street or you've got to go go I don't think there's anything that could down but you know if you've got to go up two steps three steps six steps of that first that first accessible story that faces Main Street in this example that is your first floor you know if there's you know it does because I know because because again I'm just trying to make sure that we're the ordinance is clear that we're that's what we're trying to capture because you know even in just one block where you've got Leo's law Building Law Office right that's a that is at grade right that's that's an office at grade but then you know and then then you've got some you know just north of that you know at grade retail retail uses that are clearly retail uses right and then like so so you know then and then I think that there's a difference I don't know probably not worth parsing buildings that are set back versus buildings that are like like there's also that houses were originally houses so you actually go up almost half story don't there's there's a hair salon in that one and you know what I mean so first floor we' have to say right so there's no ambig so there's no ambiguity the way this is written about those kinds of of buildings I don't think so the building that I'm that I'm familiar with that is sort of the odd man out is the de building because it has that rear access that goes that goes from the parking lot to the basement I believe and that use or the use of that basement space is carved out because it doesn't face Main Street right so you're so maybe it's the maybe it's the rear maybe it's the first floor from the rear of the building yeah but the fact is that they that that area does not face Main Street and so it's going to be able to capture those conditional uses even though it's the use air quotes the first floor from the parking lot right that include office yes rightor office when he retired yeah all of that is access from the parking lot and then if you have a portion of the building that only faces uh one of the side streets as I mentioned that too is a conditional so spirality is in the front right now they would stay in the front Y and all offices behind them there'sa Studio up on so it actually conforms to everything right now that's totally that yeah I believe that's the case exod that's not there but I mean it's empty but it's the left yeah so that would because that's empty today that would need to be one of the permitted uses if this unless it was a medical office it's not I don't know how long it's been vac but no then it's so it can't be a dental office again basically but it would make a great so so the other uh the other um conditional use was which I didn't understand was with the exception of an entrance that does not exceed 8 feet in WID so like a garage door no not I mean sure but not specifically the purpose of that is to reflect the fact that we have buildings that face Main Street perhaps only face Main Street as far as public streets and there are for Simplicity purposes two doors one access is the first floor space and the other one is really just accesses a stair to go upstairs um and what we don't want is for somebody to file a permit to occupy that upper story space as an office but they need to go through the first floor facing Main Street to get there and so this is intended to provide Clarity and ensure that folks are not having zoning permit denied just because they need to go through a door facing Main Street to get the upper story or I guess the basement so it's not so it's it's regardless of where the door is it's where the business is located upstairs or downstairs yeah and so it gives you you know the the spaces I've seen on Main Street are basically a door and not much else but I wrote the ordinance to give as much as eight feet to give you you know pracs your three foot door three and a2t door plus a couple feet on either side um just to really facilitate approval of these upper store uses using an existing first floor door and and um so I only have one more question so sorry for um Municipal uses I put that in every District I but I just wasn't sure there because there's no definition so like for for need used just examples because they don't make sense at the at the county sold their building nope I mean unless the municipality unless Flemington wants to use it exactly but County so their building unless another County because county is not Municipal correct so there there so theoretically if they didn't own that building or or I don't know how it works in the court under state law they're all local governments counties and municipalities are local governments so look well I I don't know if I'd agree with that I the argument might be that the Count's not subject to and I only brought up that only because I was trying to think of another municipal office like is a municipal office only for the benefit of constituents we'll know because then it's also like a senator's office like the police department it's a municipal office everybody and if the bur wanted to open up uh like a downtown police Annex or the Burl needed office space and there was an opportunity in the DB District now I think the the burrow has the ability to supersede the zoning like like h levels of government do but personally I like to ensure that there's no uh no potential question uh no controversy the use is specifically listed so if the burough feels the need to take space in any Zone District that I'm working on it has so but and again because it wasn't a definition of Municipal I think Municipal and that's why I brought up County not that I'm not Pi on the county at all but um you know thinking of things that we don't know today every Council has an office in Clemington on the first floor in the future I'm making something up but not every not not a governor the governor couldn't come in and say I would like to have my office in downtown Flemington on the first floor because that's not a municipal use that's a government use correct I just yeah unless unless they're in a unless it is the state taking uh doing a government building which is going to supersede the zoning but in terms of like but Municipal is us yes it is burrow of Flemington perod so can I ask another one then in terms of use there um I'm not to go too forward down that one is um houses of worship how do I know there's like federal law let alone State M stff and all the rest blah so so how so can you talk about um how would someone who wanted to open up a church be handled on this so if you want to open a new church in a DB District you need to apply for a use variance there's a lot of case law applicable to that they have to which I we can get into but I'm not sure we need to but they need to request a use variance the board has to consider the application carefully because of the case law but it's but simply the simple answer is they need to request a use variance so we are not running a foul of the religious law the federal law and all the rest of it by saying religious jues are not permitted in the DB or db2 but they are but they are permitted somewhere in town right where because we allow them in residential distri in in the the v1s and all the rest of it right we're we're we're not we're we're good is what I'm I'm asking yeah correct okay can I ask the the obers of that question when is one of our churches closes um it could be reoccupied as an existing church or a new church or it would have to follow the new Z or would have to follow the new zoning if it's sat long enough it could be deemed an abandoned and then they would have to uh if it was a new house of worship they would then have to reapply as no I know there's difference when experience coming what it has to do with Rel uses there's all sorts of stuff that it was more of it more we have I don't know if the Baptist Church is in the TR or if it's in the db2 but we have at least two big churches on church is not in the right so that but we've got we've got the Methodist Church the Presbyterian Church go like this but they're but they're just outside the district okay and then the other and then we do have one Church meth church then we do have we do have it's at Maple library and then um and then we have at least I know at least one other church it's operating on an upper story on in the building in on on Main Main Street I think the entrance might be on court the entrance is on court yeah but the building itself is above yeah actually yeah over there so so so there's no so that that would not be a problem right like we're we're we're we're good that's actually that's not where they worship that's where they I think that's where their offices are and their meeting rooms and have a another space that okay so that that would be permitted because you can have an office for anything as long as you're just doing the administrative aspects okay okay and it's upstairs and the is on the side I'm just I'm just like thinking through like what's there different perations but it's good to okay okay and and Beth the the other question I I did notice in some other neighboring towns they elevate the adult entertainment to the top of their ordinances as a non-allowed here it really only says we don't allow sale of adult materials in the retail section but that doesn't go I'm just trying to think right things that we don't know of today it is not in health and fitness facilities for example there's not it's not in higher education uh so I'm just trying to think why wouldn't we just like on top we do not allow we do not allow adult entertainment anywhere in this so I would say we can add that to this District but you might want to do a separate ordinance that simply says these uses are not permitted all all the district yeah but but again I'm just trying to think when you're refer when you're looking at land yeah know but but we might want to address it as a single orance it's a very not a specific yeah yes I just I just you run into real issues when you ban a use an entire use in an entire town yeah and it it has certain protections associated it so because right but right now the way this ordinance is written is we don't we the only thing we don't allow from the adult industry is selling of material because that's in definition of retail in the definition but it doesn't mean and I'm just trying to think of it doesn't mean that if you wanted to have things that we don't know of today or maybe they do today I don't know um like I don't know you're trying you're dancing around a club SE Club I think it's better I mean we can we can amend the definition of theater and every use to say excluding adult uses but I think a more comprehensive way to do it is to prohibit adult uses in the burrow in a way that is legal but but if we don't have it because again if that's another ordinance we have to get another subcommittee if it's not in there if it if this ordinance passes we would allow certain things like that much sure we want that wouldn't they have to come for no I mean if they're selling something yes because then it would be retail sales for which adult if they're teaching something no if they're participating in something trying to figure out what we're talking I agree with you I that went wrong you go to teach me something like you know a can we just make it can't we just say I like I like best's idea can can we do that Cara is legally can we say that I I I do not believe so we can certainly put Limited restrictions on it that are appropriate and police power restrictions but if we want to go down that road I think we should certainly have a very separate discussion about that and uh make sure that it passes uh muster from a case law perspective and I thank you very much not to be the Moral Majority but it's 1.17 square miles and I'm just trying to figure out where we put a bar like so for instance there are restrictions have been upheld within uh you know distances from schools and a lot of times that will in and itself in smaller municipalities kind of you know serve Todd Todd Jeff is that is that a way that you know would that be an acceptable way of going about it for you or however like I said I I believe when I read I think it was Clinton like almost like one of the first or second lines that says we do not allow that and I think that there is a statutory language that says that regardless of unless I think unless a municipality wants to permit it they have some in car if you think I'm wrong let me know but I think statutory language that says it can't be within X feet of certain land uses like the schools and the houses of worship unless the municipality says otherwise we don't say otherwise um but I guess to one of the points earlier I think that that's a separate question we can I can add no adult uses to the definition of theater and we can do a couple of like a couple of checks here there but the big topic really should be evaluated more than just the DB one and two visioners and Beth is the adult uses is that very clearly defined in in yeah it's technically a sexually oriented land use so I but I have a question thinking about Todd's idea of um thinking about future us that we don't thought about thinking about something that could be a health and beauty thing the P dancing thing is quite popular now as a a workout do we want something to open that would that dance studio it's I know me no I do not but but it's not a sexual land use that is an alternative to doing bar and yoga and Pates so that would be a yeah that's like a yoga studio guess that's what I'm trying to figure out my only my only question would be because we're not going to solve it here would be if there was language in another municipality that may be palatable I just felt that we were you know I always think of ordinances like as I was just looking at other towns think oh what are they allow oh I didn't know that and some of them were very strict you know and it was really sexually explicit I think that's what the words were we don't allow this in the U commercial district for example or what I would recommend is if you guys want to explore the issue let me pull the statue because I I'm I'm certain that there are buffer areas what they refer to it let me put the buffer areas on the burrow map and let's see where we land there might be very limited need to address it I mean I still think it's a good idea but it's gonna it's gonna tell us how big of a potential issue it is yeah I think that's definitely the way to go we can circulate the statutes when she looks at that if there are some areas so we can properly regulate it but you know it it this issue has been kicked around many many many times and uh there are some towns I will say Todd to your point that feel so strongly about it that they may I used to represent one of them up in Bergen County they didn't care what the ordinances or the statute said they weren't going to prohibit it and come challenge me and let a court tell me otherwise so you know looking at other towns as to how they do it is helpful but I still think we want to make sure that we at least advise everybody of what the parameters are of what you can do we would do that separate to this ordinance now that separate issue yeah yeah absolutely I like the idea of it being addressed in some permitted in the definitions but the but it really needs to be addressed comprehensively this is why these discussions are great we come up with I only know I only know I I mean I do know that somebody was looking to put that in our town somewhere because it was not list and I was asked I was within the last five years no it was just one of those things do you allow X and all I do was Google right xrated something and you may not know like you can't sell it Clinton and I'm not I don't want to belor it I just I want to make sure that this was the time to talk about land use because in it even in its entirety it is not going to say controversial but it's very Progressive to not allow office on the commercial District yeah I couldn't find one Hound around us so it's sort of like wow look Flemington we're either leading the pth or you know um and you get great places Somerville Clinton they allow doctor's offices Medical Offices it just happens that when when the town changes and people like the small guy gets pushed not the small guy the smaller things gets pushed out and people want to open up more stores because you make money the reason why Home Depot goes next to Lowe's and Lowe's goes next to Home Depot so you know I think that this burough has been waiting a long time to get a more active downtown because we've been talking about it for for around a decade that at least that I can come to in probably longer and you know my read on on the things that I've heard is that the B is ready to to push the envelope and is ready to try to uh to try to better incentivize and to force active uses to occupy downtown spaces rather than allowing for uh to really just put its foot down on what is what it finds appropriate rather than just simply letting them Market well this doesn't incen this doesn't incentivize any any encourages is better do the nonconforming use and keep that use for us absolutely encouraging this as suggest and it's gonna it's gonna it's a longterm process it's not goingon to happen overnight it's a longterm thing right and Todd your point about like not finding other ordinances if you if you broaden past like looking in New Jersey if you look nationally there are absolutely places that are doing what we're talking about here in terms of the active use and not having office space on the ground level in in districts I mean some of the some of the stuff that's been written up from folks like strong towns and some of this other stuff it's out there in the field um it's just that usually it tends to happen in like larger cities in certain districts tend to be the places that adopt those kinds of things um as a way to to kind of you know intensify and focus the the the active use spaces within those towns um but there there's it's out there I mean we're not we're not inventing something here this is it's it's well you know and know and I I know that landlords they want good tenants that are going to pay the rent that's what they care about right but our residents they want more downtown they want this you know when I was uh running office two years ago going door too you know the number one thing that I kept hearing people over and over and over again is fix Main Street fix Main Street what are you doing about Main Street get more things on Main Street we need more to do on Main Street Main Street main the number two thing I heard about was the wall and circle number one but number one was fix Main Street get it alive and I think the fact that I always think of the fact that the the way stangle is and how active and and vibrant andov zoning because Z that is what people are craving and that and people are gravitated to it because it's there people crave that on Main Street too I think and that's what I think we're trying to achieve is the opportunity to have that kind of thing I I look at poor little roseon the most one of the most beautiful homes in Flemington burough that is zoned in an office complex and it sits there empty and rotting away and it would be such a beautiful office for somebody and we goes there because now it's difficult to fix but fixable but it's an easier to do whatever you want to do on Main Street versus dealing with the spaces that are zoned for office specifically and um you know it's and so your point heard about helping and like you know helping businesses transition to these things mentioned something a few meetings ago about there is like um the tax if if landlords looking to transition buildings to be more amable to this ordinance for instance they canant of that that's they get a tax five years they do no matter what how no matter how much right so right because we would uh to this point because we have a lot of not a lot based on your your chart you know it's it's all based on your perspective but you know there's some things that are so officy downtown it's it's like you can only think of it as an office unless you were to blow off the storefront for example and and put a nice storefront in there but did you ever see Le Ross office being anything other than retail totally did what he did that was always retail it was always right until he undid until exactly right never never saw that you know was an antique shop was never open never open until they closed but it was an antique my entire life never opened andbody encouraging that to happen right long game no I I know I think it's what did you say Beth to me this requires patience yeah it requires patience we just have some vacant places on Main Street that are not detail condusive which one you know what I I I could give you list only because I I have been looking to open up a retail shop on Main Street since the day I moved here and there is not one shop that you with a classic storefront glass windows a door it we don't have it it's it's you want it you really want it but it's so I'm thinking that if there wasn't a batement program and it all came together that you could say Hey listen this is a good this is a good thing um instead of saying hey you know what it's got to be a restaurant I you know there I I looked I looked at a space the other day I looked space the other day said we don't allow restaurant and I'm the landlord I don't allow a restaurant well interestingly the the whole strip where where the back CER guy is all those now offices 35 years ago all ret it was all retail with big windows and chisel was convinced that Don schan just plastered on Windows under he could peel it all off and he's dying for the gig when a new owner says restore it peel this stuff off he's convinced underneath it it's all big Windows yeah yeah like I said it's it's it's one of those things where I think if we if and again it's more of a communication because it does seem restrictive to be able to say to a landlord you know that that right Main Street is not back yet we are still we still have too many baking seed so we want to hope that this this starts a trend going the other way especially for the business Community the hotel you know the the redeveloper told us at a meeting and he did he was okay with us making this public is that his intention is to have the hotel um the plaza and the restaurants open in the third quarter of 2025 he's hoping for as early as the 4th of July but possibly later he's got to have his skin done on the apartment complex because he can't have people sitting in a plaza while construction is going on great so and you know and once he's got the skin on the apartment complex it's going to go fast so that's you know and like you said he right that the he made it he made it very clear he had no problem with us saying it publicly um that he was looking at all those all that opening and you know and it's like the hotel traffic is one thing it's going to bring I think some business to downtown that you know people who stay overnight are going to be tired or whatever they they may just stay in the hotel and eat in the hotel and never really wanted the street it's say apartments that you know I'm counting on making a significant difference absolutely they the restaurant once in a while but not if I if I could be that person could maybe we could move to the DB to well actually first I could I be the person that ask the people online because we've been having a great discussion and we Haven really heard from the people L I'm going to check them and then go to dpd is that right run the meeting I just I don't want I mean we can be me here all night no I know and I that was a good discussion great discuss good discussion so the people that are online you know who you are um can you like unmute yourselves and and joining if there's anything that you wanted to add to what the people here in the in the building in the room have said please it I I'll speak it's Dennis I like um on the retail sale like adding the personal care nail and hair salon to allow that I think um it's a good argument for that not I'm not so sure about dry cleaner just because I don't know what the rules are where they have to be away from other buildings I know the one on the chur by yeah so but um but I I like the dialogue and I think that would be really good um to have retail sales include that that's my input uh I think to kind of jump along that like I I agree with Dennis about that but at the same time like especially with the apartments coming along we want to make sure we're not denying any functionally active businesses so like a dry cleaner while it may not be the prettiest it's incredibly functional it creates the foot traffic that retail needs um I mean that's really what a retail business needs on Main Street is foot traffic so especially in the beginning because we're talking about again being patient and growing it over time we got to do little things but I think you know like again like it's the functionally active businesses that we need to try and encourage and it's exactly what like Todd and everyone else and that we're all agreeing to at this point it's just how do we get that foot traffic on Main Street again especially now that we have so many hopefully more people coming in with these apartments and the hotel and everything but it's really you know know coming from a a business background in a in a pretty you know cond and dense area like foot traffic is what you need to get the retail kind of going and so how do we get that back so are we kind of saying that we suggest retail sales and Retail [Music] Services I just think it's it's tough to kind of it's tough to it's it's it's tough to deny certain Services I think so it's just kind of keeping an open mind about what again like what would be functional in these baces and what would be functional for the residents of the area too I think I think the sub committee could take a look at that I mean personally speaking you know I actually one of the few people I know who actually still uses a dry cleaner you know as business fashion has changed and fabric has changed you know my dry cleaner used to be like you know that little rack that spins around used to be just packed and now it's very empty and I don't there's pickup there's pickup if you drive by my house any Tuesday morning or Friday you'll see a big yellow bag and I know a lot of people use that service and the burrow so it's something yeah I've seen it at your house Jeff too when they leave your clo it's great but I don't feel overly threatened about that but I think it's something the subcommittee should spin about you know are there any services that we wouldn't want um Dennis specifically said personal care services I you know I mean services to me include things like like like I said P travel agent but um I think we should bring it back to the subcommittee and have them figure it out like definitely I think there's an interest in because then like what do we consider like chirp like that's a service right chirp the um yeah it's like a children's activity you know learning yeah that's more of like a Learning Center or maybe some sort of a like a party space I don't quite know what that is but it's probably they're doing classes and whatnot that's a Learning Center Flo that is no that yeah there there are uses there that I think we that that some of the definitions here need to tweak tweak some of this right like the DIY the painting place that that that would be an artisan that would not be that would be manufacturing I think or learning that place for used to paint right but they would again I think you know i' what I've been taught over the last year from Beth right is when you say Services it's Services right you can't say but why do we need another you know Barber Shop well because that the market calls for barber shops the market calls for barber shop but same thing if you had you know it's just the question of the things that somebody's going to have to interpret our zoning office or and like chir right to say like well we do kids parties kids party yeah but wouldn't that come under Indo Recreation so you allow that yeah so that's indoor Recreation right yeah that's potentially indoor I don't I'm a little out of my own l i don't quite know what SHP is so I'm I'm afraid of classifying something I don't fully understand but uh so we have indoor Recreation that's a permitted use so I mentioned arcades uh but if they're doing let me just find the definition all AR and Studios those are allowed on remember the only two that are first the number two number four are the ones that say first Not Included the first Flor so retail sales Artisan Studios Brewery indoor Recreation theaters all on the first all on the lower floor so those would cover cover and then because then Flor get yeah yeah possible again it's an interpretation because of what you went through and they're so specific like Patron Pottery your manufacturing you're making individual you're not people not manufacturing cell somewhere else it's an indoor Recreation activity so if you're doing an artisan if you're doing like a painter on Potter pottery place a couple things one your zoning officer has to make these interpretations I can't do it for him but if I were your zoning officer for whatever it's worth in this moment I would say that is going to be uh an art studio that's an establishment for display so maybe they're displaying the pottery uh sale of the pottery practice of the pottery instruction pot it it might be helpful as we're going through this and I know I'm taking notes and obviously with minutes and Beth is also to dovetail some of these concerns by addressing the definitions of what we have or including more definitions so to Todd's Point manufacturing you can say manufacturing shall not include or shall include or you know so to kind of help in that regard because I think one of the other things that that the subcommittee is trying to do and correct me if I'm wrong but by removing the SIC codes I think we're trying to make easier not you know more difficult and more confusing so you know we don't want to create that other issue and maybe by expanding or clarifying some of the definitions of what we're including as permitted uses and making sure they Encompass you know at least everything we know right now you know that that might help wouldn't it be I know when we were closing out I was on the subcommittee last year I know our zoning officer had asked to participate wouldn't that be a perfect thing to just say could you just read through these definitions well to that point that's certainly something we mentioned already as a subcommittee it's certainly something that as chair um want committed to that we we needed to have a discussion process at implementation to make sure that the zon and officer understood what we Me by this so and we have a discussion till we get on the same page and it's not just with this that I'm intending to extend that to various all gu get rid of thec codes but part of doing that is getting rid of the SIC codes yeah exactly so to that point that um car made my my nervousness about defining some of these things too detailed is it's almost like going into SI CES and that's my worry is we' got to be careful the balance we're trying to get away by way our zoning officer likes the S Cod because he said they're so specific it's easy for him to say no I know yes but that's but saying to him saying know too much as part of why we've been busy absolutely and that's why I committed to that process that we need we have to amend the ordinance and put in all new codes and add new things that didn't exist 25 years ago or we we don't use codes anym we use n's codes too many of them too and we can even clarify and put something like if you know there's more than one like to use Beth's example of the pottery you know if you're displaying it selling it and having a service you know if there's more than one of these types of things then you know then it's going to be classified this way I I don't know I I I agree we don't want to get too crazy but where it seems appropriate that there could be too much interpretation you know it's something for us to look at and Beth are there things to make them simpler because I think it's a great conversation but not to zero out uh know businesses but when we talked about chir you know of kids because we have both a learning center and higher education and train aren't they really all there places where people go to learn something you know highest education is just for ad and learning center it so the definition of higher education is beyond High School I see that fulltime yeah adult education learning center is uh referen of students but there's essentially no age restriction and so when just uh the addition of Learning Center was a late addition to my work with the subcommittee um quite honestly I noticed that definition in plural code and that was what triggered that that we weren't allowing education for students as part of the discussion so it got Ed in there and I love the idea of of asking our zoning officer because this should make it easier and that's why I was trying to say things like an office is an office there's there's desks or computers or phones or something you're going in and on you go to lunch and you go home part of the part make sure we're all on the same page and understanding the same things something that we can do I think it's appropriate for the subcommittee you know through this process to hear the planning board thoughts for us to get a sense as to how the ordinance ought to be amended and then to to do that work and then share the ordinance with the zoning officer because he's not you know he's going to be providing guidance on how the ordinance might need to be tweaks and clarified but the role here is about the big picture of policy can we have the zoning officer public question for can we have the zoning officer in one of the sub we can have him come to one of those and discuss it in that maybe and that would be great whichever way he chooses to do whichever best out just want to jump before we go to anybody else on the board online want to contribute to the discussion or questions we've had Melissa Adrian mik I'm good right now nothing else to I'm good I just want to say thank you to the subcommittee for getting us to where we are I think they did an excellent job I me there's a little couple points that we went over that need some clarifying but I think I think we're moving in a good direction thank you on Mike you have anything to add just clarify the uh dry cleaners again Timmy dry cleaners are a retail service they would be this ordinance permits them on upper stories and then as conditional use uh essentially on side Street um a dry cleaner the likelihood of dry cleaner coming in is going to in part of course depend on zoning but also uh I think part of the discussion was they're subject to significant amount of environmental regulations to ensure it's a a safe facility for them and surrounding area yeah I would strongly oppose any dry cleaners with dry cleaning on the premises just because of what happened to our two Wells from uh turpa cleaners but a dry cleaner to that point could come as a service where they say had a spot where they collected and then returned but the the actual was they could you know mean a little station on Main Street and then people could up from there and then they could I have to think about whether or not we could distinguish those uses um given that uh that the environmental issues are subject to DP as opposed to local land use so let me just think about that right yeah you know the process was done somewhere that safe and then they bring it could would we would it be one of those awkward things that we had to deal with where we had a Fashion retail thing we had to of interpret that it's anyway yeah you know know I'm saying yeah but isn't it I mean I I hear what Mike was saying about Drive cleaners it's sort of like talking about barber shops so you know right but the way the law works like a service is a service is a service you're providing a service to a customer they're coming in and getting a service I mean for for the zoning officer do you provide a service yes that service we might be missing hundreds of services that are not yet known um you know for the future yeah I agree yeah I agree it's just to Mike's point where he says you know I wish you could say you know we don't want to dri CER downtown we don't want it but you really can't well yeah you you you can you could say services and Beth you know tell me your thought on this but you know and I don't want to get too much in the Weeds on everything but you can say services with the exception of oh okay I mean that's that is an option now whether or not that's something that makes sense here you know but that's not dry cleaners are not constitutionally protected they put it that way so that's that's really what the bar is from a DP perspective we probably would be covered just like we could theoretically be covered from adult ENT industry correct um let's move on to db2 then ready to move on to db2 which is almost we're almost the same okay so fundamentally the same types of things occurred for the db2 which is uh the first thing you'll notice is we updated the uh the definition or excuse me the purpose of the district um importantly uh now both of these districts I this was this was an issue in the de as well but uh uh it references the right district and it and it provides some some description and and what this purpose is about more or less from a zoning and from a character perspective and so it talks about the db2 being mixed use inviting but it's also this transitional District between the downtown and the Bas district and or the the downtown and the residential districts and so it has a little bit of a different character in terms of uh what surrounds it but it also has a little bit of a different character in bigger setbacks Etc um but more importantly uh than than the character description the ordinance also uh has a significant change to the permitted uses Sim to the DB we deleted all of the SIC codes and instead provided a handful or 11 permitted uses and then a couple of conditional so the permitted uses include retail sales but excluding restaurants and breweries and I'm going to circle back to that later um art St it permits uh art studios also health and fitness higher education learning center and apartments on upper stories or excuse me not the first Flor same isue predominantly it's going to be upper stories but the basement is not concluded from a zoning perspective it permits offices and medical offices as permitted uses no limitation as to the location within the building it also permits existing single family homes municipal offices excuse me Municipal uses and then any combination of the permitted uses for the conditional uses it adds restaurant breweries indoor Recreation and art artisen manufacturing as permitted uses and then specifically permitted uses on any floor if they are not adjacent to a single family or a two family home and it calls out that this is just not applicable to out story apartment so that there's no confusion and the purpose it for this conditional use is to recognize that this district is uh has historically been less uh less active but less busy uh than the DB district and it is there are many Lots here that are surrounded by single family homes and so we have limited these most active uses or these uses that are most capable of having offsite impacts and I'm thinking about the art uh the arson manufacturing uh as well as the the restaurants those uses are limited to where they don't abut these more sensitive land uses the one in two and then the last item here is that same addition to the accessory uses which is simply to permit anything that is customary and incidental to their principal permitted use which I think is really just a best practice for any accessory use standard um and so that's the that's uh an overview of the ordinance it's I would say it's both more restrictive and less restrictive depending on what what use you're looking at but it's been tailored to uh to better fit this District that is uh an important commercial District but really less intense than the DB wanted so no Services no services are not permitted the dv2 though we're talking really it's like it's not that much real estate right I mean it's we're talking it's it's mind Street off of M part of mind off right and not really much past stangle right it's it is Church Street off of Maine but not but so right that's it right I mean like I'm so so couple of questions there then um we have um not to talk about an open application but um the proposed db2 stuff there's did did y'all look at consistency with the Liberty Village um rment plan because that's going know potentially have two restaurants on the the Liberty Village plan references the vas district for those to it doesn't touch I did right but but because db2 on church is right up to the top end of the of the Redevelopment area especially right it's right next to it so the Allies building yes but those lots are in the Redevelopment area they're subject to the Redevelopment plan and the Redevelopment plan says that those lots are subject to the vas District so even though even though they're current even though they're on our existing maps in the db2 the superseding Redevelopment plan basically to the vas for Simplicity and there's no inconsistency in terms of adjacency with what's being proposed in db2 with what's going to happen at the North End of the RO of the Liberty Village plan right I don't think I understand so like what part of what you were describing was um you know less intense uses where you know no restaurants right because but like and especially because the where the db2 hits Church where it hits Brown over there there's there's obviously going to be an intensity of of of residential uses over there right it it it aligns with what's being talked about right it's not going to be a problem with what's being proposed right Liberty Village doesn't like Liberty Village is g to be a bunch of housing over there like right so we got Brown Street we've got the new spine of what's going to run through it right the extension of central however you to call like there's we're not worried I just want to sure we're not worried that what's being talked about you're in the revised db2 is going to be too intensive in use for the housing that's in the on the North End of the of the Liberty Village no I don't think so because because it was I mean it's certainly it's certainly not the intention because the ev2 is intended to be sensitive to the existing single family homes right so there's no reason to think it would not be sensitive to uh those homes that will will be existing presumably in the future okay I I think it is I just wanted to just knowe that I just wanted to make sure Dr lot actually very few Lots but a lot of them are single family yeah I'm looking at the map there very few Lots within that that actually would be allowed to do but to your point on consistency would it be the same um coming off of stangle you know the new mixed use facility that was approved burkets that was going to have restaurants on the first floor that that's not allowed on this PL but that is a it is not but it's subject to the use VAR so long as they construct the project within within their time frame without essentially uh having the the approvals be void they'll they'll be able to uh you know I'm going to have to look at the resolutions I'm not sure specifically called rest yeah I'm not sure say this out loud I'm not a coffee yeah I'll take I'll take a look and if if they're just they I have to look at the ordinance unless they said specifically we want a restaurant or a cafe in this location it would be subject to the permitted uses in the district they may have just said uh the commercial uses permitted in the district are what's proposed on the first floor and those will now be whatever ordinance however when they got their approval it would be what would be allowed or when they got their approval but when but when they go in and they file a zoning permit for presumably that first four use they're going to be subject to the new Zone so that so I would I would ask that we check that because that seems a little inconsistent and and then when I think of the db2 along M Street like the old clothing Mansion be a perfect restaurant but but that would not be I don't know what we would want that it can only really be all this it's doesn't it fall under the conditional us D I thought it would fall under that because it's a large property and that allows restaurants same with the one that's burette but a single family home no I didn't think so so they would be permitted as a conditional as a conditional use we thought about that building discussion yeah and then just coming back to um well it does it does a single family home but it's not being used as a single family home it's a single family use not a single family building it's got Apartments upstairs and it's a office cses are so again get can get depend on what's in their resolution right okay because we don't I don't remember I don't think any of us remembers what's in the resolution to that I don't think they talked about a restaurant I'm not sure I know that was in their vendoring I'm not sure they approval of it but I mean like if they're if the resolution says uses permitted at you know or there was like that's it's going to be the resolution so we should speculate on what Che and the the the absence of things like a restaurant or a brewery is to soften like I think of Lambertville that has like Bell's Tavern which is right in the middle of a neighborhood right great neighborhood spot but is to eliminate that kind ofos it is a restaurant start in between two two and mine doesn't have the kind of parking yeah and I I I hate using Bells because that has been there for you know decades maybe a 100 years I'm not sure the history but for as long for at least 40 years and there's no parking there no zero parking your best walking there um but be that as it may that is the type of situation that this ordinance seeks to eliminate because you know Bells has been there for forever so but what we're dealing with here right now is there are no restaurants existing within the yeah there's no restaurants existing within the DB District db2 district and so that means anybody that that is coming in now is going to be create potentially going to be creating an impact on the surrounding area as opposed to a Bells which is the the land uses changing over in the area are the new residents coming looking at the bar in the restaurant bu that's neighbor so I think that's a fair distinction to make in terms of uh impact on residents and then you're saying Dennis to your point on like the clothing Mansion if we all know what what that is whatever you call it the the large Bion on on M Street it really it could be a conditional use to be a restaurant or it could based on the conditions and based on this as long as that lot nexts with it's hard to tell it's not because one it's the right Street c link building is on the other one side and then well no sorry there's building in between the man large they got a parking lot it's not almost like an ideal spot that's why we wanted to it also backs up there's I mean there's cross access to unless there's a funeral yeah exactly to through through hul's property on Main Street but that's a whole another okay so it's really the the the the most restrictive is no services in this area really I'm just trying to think I mean restaurants you could see a but there's not even a conditional use for a service that's correct yeah I think I think that is the most restrictive that that in the restaurants um are probably the two but then if you look at the plots that are involved we we looked at them and thought what what would really you have a lot of very think anything suitable yeah you have a variety of very small narrow Lots in the db2 district there are some notable exam uh sections but those are like we just talked about the clothing Manion for example um and so they they actually don't abut single family residences so they would have more flexibility but I'm looking at the uh smaller lots for example on Church Street and some of the smaller Lots even on M Street and so those properties don't offer the opportunity for a lot of parking um to the extent that the services or restaurants that they might be uh interested in would generate but also as a result of their narrow lot they also don't a lot of opportunity to buffer from are or perhaps to so can I can I ask this other question and because of what you're saying was there any discussion about rezoning parts of the dv2 into like I'm specifically thinking about Church Street part of this because M Street I think is it's a little bit different but if we think about the Church Street section of the db2 on the south side of church which is most of it you know you've got a combination of an insurance office and a bunch of homes right and then on the other side of brown you have let's see there's barber shop over there there's like a couple of businesses over there but it's most residential that very much feels like the TR which it buts against right the on the other side of Church Street on the north side of Church Street behind what eventually be P berries right over that corner there on Maine which is still DB one um again you've got like a there's a doctor's office and then you got a couple of Residential Properties there as well so I'm I'm I know that it wasn't necess the charge of the committee to this but but because of some of these because in particular like this area around church is there is it worth considering maybe moving some some section of this into the TR is it is it worth I mean I'm just thinking like I can't imagine a use that's going to go into these these Parcels that aren't housing at this point so a couple things um one on what might go in there over time if you have offices from the from that are looking for alternative locations perhaps that's not to far away from you but so you're right there are there's a predominance of single family I think largely single family homes maybe a couple two family homes in that area that might be suitable for a res the one thing that I would ask for the board to consider is what's your vision for this area of Church Street historically not not um historic but recently it's been thought of as as part of uh I mean prior to the Liberty Village Development like as a Gateway from the route 31 area into Liberty Village and so that's I think that's that's part of the reason why the DB district has been there for so db2 for so long as it's an opportunity to try to convert this area to more of a um a mixed use area to complement what was the Liberty Village now we have a handful of uses that are going to remain on Church Street by the uh that are still in the Liberty Village we just talked about like the old um brick building and then the white uh foundary building that's there um so I would ask the board you know what is your vision do you still have a desire to see this area of church serve as as this Gateway into uh into this area because it certainly connects uh to uh up to Sangle and there's some access to that or would you rather see this area get converted to a residential district to facilitate which is why I was asking the question about Liberty villagey development plan before because this particular spot over here that Church Street harder I mean the literal existence of why there's a traffic light at turnley was because of all the traffic going into Liberty Village historically right and the again the south of Church Street vas that's subject to the Redevelopment plan for Liberty Village it's primarily residential right and and I North the Church Street in the VA in the existing vas is you know turntable Junction and there is there is active business use in through all that there as well right and so so I and there may not be a better answer than db2 for for for this section over here maybe it may be fine but I'm just thinking is Church Street West of Maine is no longer serving as that huge Gateway where the buses were literally coming into to to to to to to Liberty Village because Liberty Village is not going to be the same you know retail destination but we do have the rest of you know turntable and then obviously the connection to the stangle district right so I I I I don't because we're it seems it seemed like there was like a lot of effort to try to figure out what db2 could and couldn't be because of it adjacency to the residential uses and I think we're going to see a greater intensity of residential uses at least on the south side of Church Street over there serve it I don't it might that's why I'm just raising the question again I'm not trying to question on that in that block that block I about mind is a different is different that I think it should be considered you know we're focused largely on the couple homes on the north side of church and then I don't know six eight homes on the south side of church and whether or not should be in a different district and I I think it's a worthy question but I just want to remind folks to just expand your of it because if you look at the north side of church a bit larger really the Square from pulur Maine Central and church this is largely non-residential uses and so this area the south side of church and those couple homes are either over time going to convert to something that is more complimentary to that area um and will realize the vision of Church Street being this Gateway and and this street that complement the the shopping area although now it's going to be a little bit of a different shopping area want to try to intensity and maintain that area as a commercial as a residential area I will say that if turntable Junction does particularly well in the coming years those residences are going to feel that as a result and if they're in a residential district on the other we're going villes building a brand new park right down the street from all those houses and you know they're not particularly large houses they're not on Big Lots they're nice you know for the way prices are in the burrow nowadays they're nice know starter homes right down from a brand new public park so it can that's why I was raising a question go either way yeah that's why I ask what's the vision for I would say this area of uh Church like these homes facing church straight into the north do you want to see these homes integrate into the commercial areas simply put do you want to see them integrate into the commercial areas to the North or do you want to see them stay residential and really integrate to the residents residential neighborhood to the South I think both are worthy Visions but I think it's a policy question that the board and can we without more information about what happens to turntable hopefully sold to somebody who cares about properties um or how successful new park is in a couple of years that built I don't know if we have enough data to to answer that right now yeah db2 makes the most sense right now in my opinion but um and it's what they so it's we need to make a make a note to revisit this at some point in the future when something changes that either turn table or the park is built how more desirable this neighborhood may become because it's got a pocket and it may very well be that what we see you know at Zone db2 these residential to stay residential and they just and then we we realit this in a few years like you're saying and like we realize again this is just we should be TR on the southide tree because that's just what it is it becomes office alley I mean but in the future every one of these homes could turn into an office because that's where you can put an office I it could be the Best of Both Worlds yeah yeah again I just again this is my end town so I'm kind of you know particularly thinking about through but but I just it's it's always it's always been like a weird weird little stretch post world's first outlet mall they have very limited parking I mean there's you know people Park on both sides in the road it's very hard to park there it's very cramped you know there's not really turntable no and a turntable's all signed turntable only a little bit Yeah but the um during the day there are parking spaces get people go to work this became off like real offices there's there's never going to be and then you know yeah I not too much of a diversion I just it was because because that part of town is is is has changed over time and is going to change substantially with the Liberty Village project it was just if we're right in the ordinances I just wanted to raise the question I I I think the the idea of and one the and I think need to change it immediately and I think as it gets built out you know it's always so fun to think from a planning board perspective that we're really working on things 20 years out right so when you think of something like I mean just think of lamberville there is zero park it is so hard to park in but you find it you got that and you walk to walk to B thinking my God where is this place but U but again the residents know where to park and so um you know so it's but but and and this again the other side of this is so there was a fire several years ago of the property in the corner of church and brown which then was rebuilt as a house right it wasn't rebuilt as a business like you property owner you have a beautiful job it's gorgeous it's wonderful and love seeing it right it's just that they they chose residential because you know their economic decision was to to make it residential which perfectly fine all right so any other questions or discussion on the db2 then ESP now and I'm also continue through and power through for another few minutes have a break I'd rather power through you have anything to add right now my discuss I'm only asking you because you're not muted talk frch or um oh I'm sorry I didn't know you it's hard to hear I'm good I'm good I'm good I'm good I'm good everybody good Mike Melissa and put thumb up she's good you're good thank you all right so I guess it's goes back to the subcommittee to TW it further TW what we've had what we've so I think we should have a try to get a meeting going I'll I'll send an email to everybody and we'll get a meeting going quickly and when's our next let me thir week so in terms of um next steps it seems obvious that the sub committee is going to talk about this we're going to talk to the zoning officer and revise the ordinance and so what I'd like to understand is is should the ordinance come back here for the meeting in the next meeting uh for further discussion by the planning board or do folks want to move it on I just need some if we moved it on it would the board would sit we would let the board see it and they could comment to you privately before it went on I I think the question is do we need another whole meeting come the Amendments you made the changes subcommittee meets um with the doing officer Robin has the ordinance ready brings it back to the planning board see if anybody else has additional comments or addition changes and if not then they could make the recommendation to put on to the council and then you can bring it to the council and do walk them through it it's it's getting a little bit more harder to hear you guys you guys are getting a little bit further away from the mics sorry I um we're just discussing which way to go forward with it yeah well I that's like the important stuff that for my minute sorry my suggestion was that it goes back to the subcommittee get tweaked and looked at and then we have a separate meeting with uh with our our Zing officer with Robin and then if everything's coetic we bring it back to the planning board as in the form of an ordinance uh Beth go for any changes that have been made sees if there's nothing else everybody's good with it then then they would support it to go to the council at which point Beth would go to the council meeting and walk everybody through it see if they have any changes if they have changes it goes back to the subcommittee if they don't then they introduce it at the ne I don't either either the next meeting I think we have a meeting on the 19th and we have a meeting on the 26th planning board it's 19th and 26 not crazy no no that's is there a council meeting by any chance in the 25th no there is a coun no oh yes there is I'm sorry right yeah we moved we moved it because there was election day and Veterans Day let me just check that's I knowly so let me just check when when it is um Council I think has a meeting on the 12th the council meeting the council's on the 12th and the council's on the 25th and we could we could talk about it at the 19th and it could go to council as early as the 25th if everything goes well correct that's what I'm thinking so I can't unless something unforeseen happens I can't think of any reason why this ordinance can't come back for planning board on te Council only has one meeting currently scheduled in December which is the 9th and you know unless there was something extreme I am loathed to shove things down the resident throats right before the holidays it's not my style and I hate to start all over again next year but if we can get it the council was able to introduce this on either you know on on the 20s yeah you can't introduce it mayor in one year and adopt it in the next yeah so that's what we gotta make sure of a special meeting that makes it look like you know we're trying to get something done on slide it's not my style um but when it comes back here on the 19th it shouldn't it won't need this it shouldn't need this level of discussion I don't think it will because I encourage Lord members who if you think of something in the next day or so that pops into your head after the discussion make sure to be for the subcommittee and we can but I think the challenge for the for the council's schedule is if you introduce it on the 25th there's no planning board meeting between then there's there's a meeting on the 26th of her planning board next yes next so so there so we yeah it could work that if that if we saw on the 19th council did first reading on the 25th we did our consistency hearing on the 26 council's meeting on the 9th could be the second reading public hearing for this otherwise it's going into 2025 like that that's I think those are the options yeah right and I would just um remind um the board that for the 19th it looks like we have the resolution for the 110 Main Street we have the public hearing for the historic district element of the master plan a consistency review for the ordinance for the amended Historic District map we have the public hearing for National pools and spas and possibly the public hearing for the Liberty Village um so that's a a fairly heavy um meeting schedule for the 19th and some of those things may and probably will continue to the 26th I didn't think we got I thought Liberty Village wasn't com to the 26 well they they submitted all of their completeness items they sent it to Bob clerico he did request so I'm I'm you know right well we we that's still I mean agenda is is up to council we would need to um if if you know get some kind of feedback from Bob clerico on that we need to discuss that to schedule because they are looking to um for the 19th and we need to give them an answer and Beth I don't know if you would want to have some conversations with some of the members of council I had um it's the week of the league you know the 19th 21st and half of the council is going to be in the L City and the other half is here so you got half of them have a COR anyway if you did want to reach out and see you know walk them through it a little bit and see if they have questions um let's let's let's aim for because it's coming to us on the 19th first anyway so let's aim see what we can get down before then and if it looks like there's too much or if we you know it looks like it's ready to go we can aim for it right I mean really it falls to council schedule at that point it does we'll have done that and then it's feasible for us it depends what they want to do with it so counil we can aim for and I encourage the board that I'm not I'm not prohibiting discussion but the large part of our discussion should have been tonight so if you think of things in the meantime raise them up so that we can I think Hannah might have a question I just had a cook mayor I'm sorry did you I just wanted to make sure did we say we're going to try and include uh Robin in the conversation as well with you guys in the subcommittee at all yes okay great that's just what I wanted to confirm because I just wanted to make sure her voice was heard too thank you abely right say that right I heard it several times thank you loud andar all right so I've got back here for discussion on the 19th assuming all goes well between now and the 19th working with the subcommittee the zoning officer and Robin ordinance draft on the 19th introduction the 25th back here for master plan referral on the 26th of November public hearing potential adoption December 9th that is the only schedule that gets this done this year it is and and the problem is is introducing it on the 25th and explaining it to the council the same night but I have a question and the council requested that we do this right open Council requested it and there has been uh the council requested last year Council requested it this year there's been some back and forth about from some of the [Music] members vacillating on it this year um so I'm not really sure what's gonna happen honestly well we'll just we'll just do what we were asked to do and we'll see what we can achieve and we'll see like I said this is what I was asked to do by the residents of the gr so yeah and and it's been on our master plan I mean this has been a long time coming long time com well I want to thank everyone for their discussion and all the points I think this is one of the best discussions I have ever sat through in very good very open and some really good points raised thank you very much everybody all right so I'm going to move on to chair items and given the hour I don't have any chair items what was coming up in the next two meetings do we have a need to go into executive session car it we do not excellent good to hear so I'd like a motion well I think we heard that all in favor thank you thank you night