all right can I bring this meeting to order please this is the um Tuesday April 30th 2024 meeting of the adustment allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all this meeting is called to the provisions of the public meetings act both adequate and electronic notice of this meeting has been provided by way of publication in the hunted and County Democrat carry new newspapers on around February 1st 2024 and January 13th 2024 and April 4th 2024 do I still have to say that one or that was for the April I'll say I said it in addition noce of meeting was posted at the B Municipal bill then located at 38 Park Avenue um and accessible entres there too posted on the municipal website provided to the municipal and distributed to all post any requesting of same this meeting is being recorded with AUD video maybe we broadcast this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to the board consider enriching a decision and a Corum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times all right um before we get going I you can need a motion we need to change the um agenda around if we can we didn't do I'm getting way ahead of myself dooll please yes mayor car here councilwoman here Mr Campion here here Mr Hill M here here Mr Das and Mr cook are excused Miss Whitman here Mr simino is also excused he might be coming in late I'm not sure um miss swingle here miss de Mario have we heard Mr E here Joe miss kazinski here Mr claro here manness mrman has excuse we're gonna Mark M Mario yes all right soad I'd like to um adjust the um agenda as it's been issue just to move things around because um our um elected um officials are excused from items 11 and 12 being those are board of adjustment issues I'd like to bring item 13 ahead of those so that they can be involved in that and then leave um as they Free Will um so I'd like a motion to when the agenda to move discussion item 13 ahead of item 11 12 we doing all in favor yes all in favor any no seeing none no thank you all right so let's move ahead with item one is public comments this is a for public comment of items not currently on the agenda does anybody any the um use the raise hand feature to identify you like to make a comment or anybody in the room in the room want to make a comment at this point all right see N I may comments I don't really have any comments thank you okay item three councel comment no okay item four HPC comments Dennis you have anything for us I have several items um we had a meeting on the 17th and we had several approvals eileene sent them to everyone on the planning board um one was for offense at 24 Broad Street another was a porch renovation at 39 Broad Street another one was a garage renovation at 22 Pennsylvania Avenue and Liberty Village George Fone uh reviewed the plans with the HPC and the HPC provided a memo supporting the Liberty Village um he also acknowledged that if they did work at three Church Street they'd come before the HBC before work began and then we had one denial um it was 148 Main Street uh it was a followup requests for chimney Demolition and we said we needed more information on the cost of repairs versus demo as well as proposed roof materials the only other thing is a reminder we have the historic House Tour on Saturday June 1st from 11: to 5:00 still looking for volunteers for part of the day anyone that volunteers gets a free ticket for the tour that's it for me all right thanks Den we scheduled in I know which you made us we're both in for that but it's fun time to be involved with else I encourage everybody to be involved in that if they can um all right item five professional reports the only update that I have is with regard to uh the billboard I'm waiting for a determination or a confirmation of the date that the uh Sheriff sale the auction is going to occur I don't have that back in Council yet um I will say that typically in foreclosure matters um there they are allowed up to three adjournments but since the um borrower in this case really didn't put up a fight I don't know if that's even really going to happen so hopefully I'll have a date by the next meeting and then thank you um I don't want update no um I just the chair item resolution compliance that might probably in you at some point um we allowed Mr trackman to take a break today but Mr mcus you have anything other than um Mr clarica other than the planning board checklist no we'll come back to you for that um all right thank you so item six is approval of the minutes from the April 9924 and I get a motion to oh does anybody have any comments that they didn't as to I beforehand on those yeah anybody has any comments on them additions no okay then can I get a motion to approve the minute from April thank you woman did you move it move it mayor Carol yes Miss swingle yes counc wa a second to from those people online for the minute please we can't move forward without it second it's it's hard to hear but I'll second I finally realized what you said a second for the minutes appr approval of the minutes thank youn all right M Mr yes the woman foror obain mayor carolain Mr Campion yes yes Mr Hill yes yes um yes thank all right so item s is a resolution 20248 appointment of a conflict attorney it's not as dramatic as it sounds it's just that um Kinski cannot take part in one of the applications because she's um conflicted so we're appointing somebody that canect in her place for us on that particular application so the attorney is was yes John John where did that name come from um I asked him if he was available and if he would be willing to have this conf Council he had a conflict with that particular matter um so I presented that to the board [Music] I'm not sure no I do not have now typically when we do conf I don't remember see any emails no it was really more between chair and okay so I'm statement for the record we did not put out for request for proposals any of the special on this board this last year correct to chair former chair missed the deadline and then the board took her to move forward and keep all of our current professionals so I wanted on the record that we must go out this coming year uh for request proposal including for conflict positions because that's stressing to me yeah there's been no input by this C by this board or review of any resumés of any attorneys um for conf positions so and I don't have any problem Mr ly at all this is about procedure okay understood we get it well we could wait until next we need we need to do this it's just going forward he will be here probably next meeting on the May 14th that would the night that we need yeah no I think we need to we need to move forward but and this did somebody make a motion okay I'll make the motion for that he um that would we can say it's just this one application and then we could it when we did a conflict um engineer it was like you know taking a scrub brush to raw skin right I mean it was you know who's going to get names and you know trust this one and that one and you know whatever so you know it's um I think that the board has a right to like consider multiple people not just one person right so so yeah we can um like would you be to add to that motion it's just for this application yes yes this application for the meeting because I think has a conflict on the 14th and there might be other and that there's at least one more application so application no it's actually there's a new they not submitted any new plans worried requested to be um placed on the June 25th agend um they need to send plans in they have to new um planish esro checkl never should AAL that will make it a full year since they they put in their application and we gave them conditional approval a full year in June and they' had one completeness and they've had one hearing and it's just been a waste of time okay so so this would um be May for um item 12 specifically the application 20242 there might be any he might be here for the entire meeting if the other one comes we'll have to S um okay so um Mayar yes Mr K yes G yes Mr Hill yes yes Miss M drao uh yes Dennis did you hear me we need you vote no I didn't yes okay very good thank you um okay item 8 resolution 20249 T House LLC application 2401 um we have the resolution was distributed everybody we do um I did receive some comments back from applican Council as well as the board professionals if I can just read them into the record they're very minor um first the references to minor site plan should be changed to preliminary and final site plan throughout the resolution a couple places that happens um Brett Harris was here in place of Miss mcmanis that night so we will make that change um in the middle midle of Page Three there's reference to exhibit A3 and that is uh to be changed to say the revised plan was dated March 13 2024 as opposed to March 22 2024 and there were references to improvements of the sidewalk along Church Street with Belgian block curb uh that should actually be changed just to say that the applicant agreed to reconstruct the sidewalk along Church Street um and that is it well just a question that reconstruct the sidewalk the sidewalk has to be reconstructed as per the historic district which is Belgium Block so why did they want block is the curve oh okay all right so um they are relocating the driveway and they are reconstructing the Bel block curve where they're relocating but the rest of the side was in po condition and it separate the curves as though so as we wrote it it sounded like we had to put Belgium Block across the whole C and they to comments professional report so anything else relating to that would be okay right thank you for thank anybody else for uh so we do have the people that are able to vote on this application and motion and second mayor Caro uh chair giin Mr Hill Mr Todd's not here Jeff's not here Campion M Whitman and mr's not here the motion mayor Carol yes Mr Hill yes councilwoman faar yes Mr Campion yes yes Miss yes make those CH I will that um given the bills that I've received today that um there will be an esro deficiency so I will get a letter out tomorrow um and maybe yeah and I'll let them know there is a condition here es have to be replenished so um I'll change the resolution but I would hold it and not release it have signed until they get thank you uh really quickly just want to say um in case we want to make any other changes um it is true that applications 11 and 12 are Zoning Board of adjustment applications but they don't involve demands okay so because of that the May and Council if you would like to stick around are able to participate it's only when the zoning board is acting as D variant which we don't have here um we'll leave the we'll leave the agenda as it is now Chang um all right so item n resolution cha in application 20230 resolution would that be resolution 20241 I didn't want to um because because it's not ready yet I don't want to number them because maybe is going to be done before I'm not sure so I get kind of um yeah it gets a little confused when we put resolution on the agenda be done for the next meeting so presumably you could just go 10 11 well I did have a resolution for the conflict attorney do we need that resolution I did give it a number but we did not I just want to point it out that it was a resolution that's why we have a number on that one yes and if we don't have a draft one I'll prepare one yeah I think we have one to the the comp Planner yeah we can okay so if we can just modify that so n or 10 next meeting in May 14 all right so almost forgot item 11 is discussion of the planning board checklist so I'd like to um hand this over to Mr to you you issued um quite a lot of documents for us to review I hope everybody's reviewed it but the idea of today is to kind of start this process off with with Mr cl's work he's done review it and this is time to start adding in if there's any major additions we wanted to make but let's uh let's hear his introduction of it please I also have and I ask the off do work thank you so um as I explained in the email that we submitted um and we thought the best way to do this so we didn't lose track what we're currently requiring and is transition over to what we maying and again we're using the format I see the last version of this checklist I put together for Town Clinton so we started with that basic format but again in order not everything in every Town's the same so did the side by side comparison so you can see what items and the way Lindy set this up she actually text in here that's the dark is from the original t Clinton checklist and stuff that's moving over from the um Flemington check was is blue text and stuff that's it's in a red text is essentially additional stuff it's not in the FL checklist so you kind of see what we're adding at the end of the day you pick and choose on this you you know if there's something you think is not appropriate we don't include it we think there's something we're missing we we insert it um and I'm just going through it tonight before the meeting I know there's a little bit of duplication in here but we can it's a little bit administrative and I really should have get some input from both car and be on this before we kind of finalize it so as you said this is sort of a first shot at this thing yeah so this these checklists are set up they're in two two different sections there's a section for documentation uh that's that's required applications uh checks disclosure statements things of that nature environmental impact statements uh things things of that nature so it's information that has to accompany an application the second part is information that has to be on a plan that's submitted as part of the application so just going through the first part uh and again our current checklist just has a list of information whether it's part of the documentation or whether it's something that's on plan it's really not distinguished on here so know what the best way to do to go through this generally or Point by generally speaking um we need to go through this you know administrative we have on here a 3 week submission I believe that's the format we're using for requir not have a current checklist so we're advising applicants if this is the information that's been filed three weeks prior to a meeting um most of this stuff is is is basically St carryover obviously we need an application um if there's if it's a uh and if there's a a fee calculation that needs to be submitted as part of that um a changes back we had like 15 or copies I changed it back to four copies I think that's what we're requiring right now for hard copies we might want to do five um because uh it's nice to have one for the um for the planning board record but then also all of the commissions that would like to come in and want to see fullsize plans it's nice to have another set that they could all use and they're not using the the the record one so so that's a change to what's written in our current checklist but it's what we've been doing for quite a while yeah and we have the electronic files as a as a requirement I like to keep that again administratively uh appli disclosure St statement if they're if they're a corporation [Music] um if they requesting any variances associated with the you know with the application identify what they are included n explanation of what the variances are um the certification again this is current currently in our checklist I think was added some years ago a certification from the B water and SE departments U regarding uh miss you know fees and the status of the of the of the their payment of utility bills a certified list of property owners and again all to the left is all the different types of applications that could be that could be submitted sub the various types of subdivision applications the various types of site plan applications the various types of variances that can be submitted we kept on here the sign plan I that's going through a subcommittee I don't know if you really want to keep that anymore that's I I left it on here because it's on your current checklist but it doesn't even come before this board it goes to the sign committee can we step back um before we get back to what you just said about sewer and water and we make sure that they're paid and full that's for um you know like existing projects that aren't but do we need something I maybe maybe my Champion needs to weigh on this do we need something for like um a form a for if if they're asking for you know they haven't even have believe we have yeah again tried to you know extrapolate over into this other checklist so might be some actually might have some duplication uh hopefully we didn't miss anything but we may have duplicated some things in a couple places I'm sorry go back to science I interrupt whether or not we to the left is is all the different types of applications and then you'll check a check mark there whether it applies for not so the item is listed there it may not apply to a lot of different types of applications um again we tried to be consistent with what we're currently requiring there's a lot of information here so something might have got missed or whatever but that's we kind of administra have to go through and make sure we didn't didn't leave something out or check something that maybe didn't need to be checked or forgot to check something that maybe should be checked um the sign uh just going down on the signed Esco agreement um a should completed form a from the B water andur department that's new to this checklist because it wasn't it's obviously unique to clington um H um again well no this is something to town Clinton had will serve letters in the Burl um a fire department and rescue squad I don't know that that's something Clinton was very much in tune with whether that's something you you want input on applications I think personally I think it's really important that the fire department and the rescue squad weigh in I and police about especially high-rise buildings or high density areas um and that is different than the Fire Marshall so the Fire Marshall is not on is he on this with Bob I didn't see him either about getting his report actually would it be the Fire Marshall be speaking for the fire department no the fire department the Fire Marshall looks at the structure if it's an existing structure for a proposed structure to weigh in on fire code the fire departments will serve is yeah we have the apparatus that fire the different so got three fire and rescue Fire Marshall and police I almost three lines so fire and rescue companies that's not all one it's Flemington fire resington rescue right so that's four so just just before you move on B can I just check so just for my you've got the description of the thing that we're looking for in the center part the left part the check marks on there those are those those come from are generally what we ask for now or are those by ordinance or no they're they're gener if you go over to your checklist they're generally what's required again there's there's a lot of similarity but they're not identical right so I'm just trying to identify for what I want the board to look at when they're looking at this after we've talked about this today is that this is where we can have input we can add lines to it like we just did with that discussion we can also add check marks say we want this in this case and or we don't want it in we need to be doing our work where these check marks go right just so everybody maybe and keep in mind the fact that you have it on the checklist and its requirement doesn't an applic get ask for a wer obviously when they clearly columns to the right of the requirements that the applicant fills that out he indicates whether he provided the information or he indicates if he thinks it's not applicable and he but he also indicates if he thinks he's requesting waiter right so the applicant is telling you I gave you that piece of information so when we review the application we say yeah he gave it to us is said you know he said he gave us he gave us a corporate disclosure we looked it's not here so we said well no you didn't he said you did but no you so this will be that when we get to use this in in reality we it will be easy for board members to see what are requested on this situation rather than a list when when people get used to this my report essentially would be filling out the third column uh maybe adding some footnotes maybe doing a short letter saying this is all the information I got and based on the above I re you know recommending you grant these waivers I mean the letters instead of being five six pages wrong will be a p you therefore right so for the board what I want to say is we import work to do filling out the check marks as we want them because the important part of this is then if we when we get applications forward the decision on whether we appr choose to if they're applying for a waiver on something that we strongly felt should be on the checks on on the left hand section we're going to have to really think that's our moment when we decide whether we apply this is the point that we can really button this down of what we feel is required and what we feel we would prefer not to give a W for and would prob need a really good description for it is that I to say good explanation of why right and on these waivers granty what I would normally do I put my recommendations in there just um I don't think I have it on here but I did a little summary that's one of these I think where I just put like it's like tww which just temporary waiver or you know yes they do they're actually on the last page of this thing um whether I think you that the item is not applicable uh whether it's not required um and whether it's recommend you know whether waiver is recommended for approval whether it's recommended for denial um and some of these have put form temporary you know we don't necessarily need it move forward but we we do need it before we act on can you talk a little bit about all the D storm water and water um line items you have in here and requirements that are in here um well they're in there there's the stor water in there yeah no was they were sort of in our current one but our current one was done I don't how many decades ago and it just didn't yeah the inference to stuff was there but it's more specific um so yeah they have to when I read that they have to have like um um I don't know let's let's pick on Cutlass because they have no approvals right now right so if Cutlass came in and wanted to do a new site plan C would have to show us that they've already started the application process of D or theyd have to show us the D is giving them a you know no action or we're not changing any the statutory regulations an applicant can um he has he has to show us his storm waterer calculations we do the review if there's D permits any applicant is still subject any action you take is still subject to the so we're not requiring that they start an application with the D I don't think we have the authority to do that what about do if they're on a state road or County approval same the same thing I mean a lot of cases they're they're somewhat foolish if they don't make the initial approach and will you know will if an applicant our report will say they're on a state highway they need a certain kind of permit if we have some comments on it we might off the board some comments on it but it's still what you know if we see something that looks wrong if you see a sight distance issue or something like that we you know we'll make a comment on it but it's really out of our jurisdiction the only the only thing I've seen certainly we would condition any action on receipt of their final approval um there would also be a condition that if their final approval in any way changed what was by this Bo they need to come back the only thing I've seen is proof of submission to like the County planning board if it's necessary even there that would have to be a condition but sometimes they'll put in there you have to show that you've actually made the application that I usually don't get pushed back from applicant because it's either a wave Fe still at this point or it's nominal whereas your D your t uh D applications are much more significant so they may tend to wait on those um but I agree with that we can't really require it but kind of putting yourself behind the aall if you don't at least know what the heck they're going to say before you start through this whole process and I'm only asking because um if we go through a huge hearing for something spend a lot of time doing it and then they go to the DP and the DP says yeah no you got to change this you got to change that then they come back here it's like you know it's like yeah you know is that a mechanism in which within our processes that we have that we can expect them to have started that without you say we can't do it for completeness it's not we we don't we don't have you can't put it in here to say it has to be done that's the complaint but during their application process is there do we have any to be able to say we expect it to be at Le started at that point before we get a or not really can we can raise like I think Bob said they could turn around and say well listen you're going to get a approval of this permit before XYZ so usually Sai developer applicant at that point is going to say jump in but it's going to say okay why am I going to continue paying esro and time and Professionals for something that clearly you know he's referencing the statute or the regulation that is not going to allow when to get this term approved I me so it's kind of we can't vote no on that as saying that that's not going to happen they would we can't no because and we cannot require that we get any approval it's higher than ours we cannot require they get prior to our our but again as part of our review if we see something that we think is not compliant we'll make not that right you know if we see one of our redevelopers didn't even know they need to go to the D I'm sorry one of our redevelopers didn't even know they need to go to the DP so I mean this is like you'll run into this from f um I mean you you can only review what you get in front of you review it the way you see it um the um if you see something obvious though there's an established flood plan elevation and somebody's coming in with buildings that are below that you point that out actually that is one element that would flip over to us because we have that control under under flood damage prevention regulation so again there is there is a lot of over there's some overlap between local regulations local jurisdiction and and state regulations um the reverse do is if an applicant goes to D gets all this permission D for development and then he comes to the board and as part of the board's review and approval they changee things around then he has to go back to DB for re-approval so I assume that's the logic and why the law set up that way that you you have to defer to the higher if you want to call it a higher authority uh you do you deal with you deal with that's under your jurisdiction and it's subject to whatever other agencies have jurisdiction application may need additional state level Bob will put in his review letter approval or letter of no interest from any agencies including blah blah blah and we would then as a condition of any approval we have comp with not only any whatever was referenced in his report I mean like I said a lot of this kind of works itself out nine times out of 10 certainly not 10 times out of 10 but because people understand you know the risk that you're taking so you kind of want to you know they have pre meetings all the time with these agencies so you can get some sort of idea in some instances it may make more sense in their mind to get you know one permit approved prior to coming here but you still need your set plans so you're still moving in two directions at the same time you're not going to get a do or a d a permit approved if you're not showing them the plans that they need to be submitted to you to show how that's even going to work so but it's certainly a reasonable question for anybody on this board to ask general public care for them to testimony where are you remember that they can ask that question yeah and just FYI at the last um environmental commission U the environmental commission uh it's going to work with the shade tree commission to update the the list of trees because it looked like it hadn't been updated in 20 or more years um you know trees that were popular in 90s and 80s that have now found to be difficult ugly and dying all over St Jersey if still on our list so they're going to be making put in I hope some kind ofation and I don't know if that list is is that they make recommendations want you know more the native Hardwoods more that you knowly with landscape reps those kind of things um so the main aim of Rob introducing this today for the board is that we need to now go away and almost basically red red line and go through this with a CRI of what we want this to say what we think this needs to say so my main question to the board at this moment is this is your chance to ask well if you need any clarification on how to go through that process or any of the um any of the um professionals um what you might need in order to do that because I want us to come to the next meeting with I want us each gr provided Redline comments so you know we got this document in three different ways online not all of which were uh nothing that we could readed line um you know they're all PDFs some sort and you know looking at it on a small computer I I'm not sure what the answer that because you can't have 15 people red Lin so it's not it's just a comment um but it's very hard to like look at the computer and go back and forth to the the checklist part then you have to go over I was wondering if somebody could print out copies I mean I'm May the only person here but I find it very difficult to like go back and forth my computer screen is a laptop and yeah and I and it's like getting all the check boxes on one side and maybe this much of the First Column of what it is and then I have to go all the way across and it's really hard then I have to go scroll up to see what that column is you know at which category it's really hard to like work with so I don't know if we can get um I don't know what size you have is that like I just it out it's often on one piece of legal paper yeah is it POS no it's paper you want me to this out and it did you I don't else how many people on the like to have it in print I I thought I thought we did one editable we have it's in an Excel file we could send that up rather paper personally said if you w in cell you're going to have 16 different colors track changes yeah I'll print it on this size paper like a do or 10 or nobody nobody online is raising a hand I don't know about my C they would like one [Music] one are they in color too like his color is important right is theor we tried to do it that way so you can see where we're gonna use we we're g to use those horrible the paper for this so we're not killing any trees that are Repton and you got got four online who said I think onine said they like it you got all four of us up here in color I'll deliver 10 and then if people can pick them up here and not have to I'll I'll we had two we had do you want the combined version or do you want the final version the one suggested I think the final you don't want to see what we have now versus what we're proposing that's the difference you have what we have now right next to what we're proposing thought it was color well the final vers fin I guess oh I'm sorry yes they are no is it just the combined version because it was telling you where information came from that's what I want that's what I want it's the combin one so I can see what was there and what's okay please sure sounds good and copies anybody copies up so does anybody we've talked to here anybody online have anything they want to add right now or do we understand what process we want to go through I'm trying to do this I do Karen yeah um I I was just wondering um could we add like question is the property in the historic district and then if so what's the official designation I think sometimes people don't realize you know that whether it's in or not and I just thought to add that on there as well if it's in the historic district and then what's the the property designation that might help as well don't know if anyone has any other thoughts on your red version um I just mean if we have any questions for Bob about how we came up with this how to navigate it or um what he's created this is a great time to catch him before we go ahead and drill down into what we want to look at within this checklist that he's created comments that we come back with just like that you should have some provision that says whether it's on the well probably it be a do something come back the application yes because I understand HPC didn't you have a question a question came through that it was suggested that so this I'm just again pulling out things that will go in there you need to think about Dennis is um I believe it was suggested by somebody that your process should tie into what how it comes in that it should have gained approval from somebody before it comes to you for instance so thinking about the the flow of the information of things of applications for you that we might have to consider too that that's conversation other thing between the Departments when we when we have flow between the um construction department and the permitting there's questions on does it go to per first then HBC what you know all these different flows of things around separate conversation probably it's just like we come up with some confusion about how we're moving things around the system I think that's just what I'm trying to I add that and one of the things to consider I don't know if it would really I mean I guess would have to be on the checklist in order for us to what a lot of towns will also do is take it out of the board or Burrow's and say you know you have to send more copies here but then you have to show you've sent one copy to the fire department one copy to the police department one copy the dhpc and usually if doing that time I'll just use the same copy letter and I'll just copy everybody and put with enclosures on B so clearly you could see that it went here it went there we don't have to worry we're asking for a demonstration that it happened at this comp Point me has always been the easiest way to do that not every town requires that there's still a lot of towns that want 13 or 21 copies and distrib so again not something we have to figure out now but something something for the discussion putting it around a good point from a procedur standpoint if you go look at item um eight that we just added the we had the fire rescue police Marsh fire um we can change that around to say proof of submission too but now this thing says receipt of a will Ser or response letter back which infers that they filed it with them and got it already before compl which we don't get before yeah so I mean that's this comes up a lot in Clinton where they made the submission too but they don't necessarily have the response back yet right do you want to hold somebody up waiting around for them to get the rescue squad to send them something or a lot most cases in that situation they come back and ask for a waiver on say hey I filed but I don't have a response give me a temporary waiver right and that's part of the discussion we'll have as a board is do because we I feel that we we've got a mind we're Ed to want to have that in place before we start the public hearing for instance and that in the past when we've given waivers for things that completeness we haven't received them they they're not there and then it wastes everybody's time in a public hearing so we have to work out some wording of how we can achieve what we want to achieve within Thea temporary we change age around the proof of submission of the application too the four entities want you could also add um HBC if if you're in the district then send it to the HBC send it to right and and Lang we'll have to put language in says that we expect that to come in enough time for the board to have seen it before the public hearing too you know have to add this language in because that's what we want is those reports come back we have time for reports fromy and environmental we can talk about language because I think have to marry getting it versus delaying an applicant unnecessarily because I'm putting the board on Noti but it's going to be a good discussion about we're going to get right into the weeds of those things about how we feel and what we want to put on here and this is what this can achieve it's not just some boxes oh dar's raising his hand yeah I'm just curious like so this is for the the checklist is to determine completeness right once we determine completeness then the clock starts in terms of like for instance HPC needs to provide a submission to us within the 30 days or whatever that might be at least from the local um you know as far as um so I'm just kind of curious like I mean I definitely agree with having them show proof of receipt that they've emailed all the parties but do we want that in is that more of not the completeness checklist but the pre-flight checklist before we schedule the hearing that we've got all the responses back I I I think it's kind of like you know we maybe mixing two things here that's exactly the discussion we need to have next time though because we need to that's what things we going to button down where where we're going to land on those things as a board and I think I also think that you know we're acquiring that three week submission for our professionals who you know go to work every day and do this all day long and some people do this on weekends too but our volunteers like HPC and the environmental they meet once a month so there has to be a submission early enough to those those commissions to get a response back before we have it well the way this reads right now is the checklist requirement is to have the respon um again go to the last it on J public you know utilities jcpnl and the G and the gas company applicat rarely ever get I mean they file but they rarely come in with hey here's my here's here's my letter most of the utilities won't necess technically review an application until it's almost approved by the board with that we the three- week clock that you have in their B for you know to give our professionals enough time to review everything is that three weeks from the time they submit it or three weeks from the time of if their de complete well and that's actually something I wanted to talk about too because if this is the checklist of items the board has 45 days to review the items to deem a complete or in complete so that three weeks I think we're going to talk about that a little bit okay because you actually statutorily have more time 45 days for us three weeks for you correct and our commission correct once a month so if they submit the th the third Thursday of a month they just missed HPC and now we got to wait 30 days before HPC meets and then HPC have to write up a report and send it in so we're talking about five weeks but again I think Don's Point let's not mix up that's why I think the proof of submission is important for complet so we could check that off then I think about how much time we want to be giving them to review it which would come when we schedule a hearing so let's say tonight we have so for instance we have a completeness like any matter that's on for completeness tonight check check check all right everything's here everything's complete let's say it's a big application that requires all this do we want to schedule it for the second meeting in May no because we're not going to get it by then do we want to schedule it for the second meeting meeting in June because that gives enough time for HBC fire police Rescue everything else yes and it gives the board enough time to their professionals enough time to do their review letters things like that so I think if we're going to just focus on the checklist now that's what we can do and then that secondary part comes later once we see what we're dealing with because you said it may be different if we get it sorry beginning of the month versus the end of the month because you may have just missed that next meeting is that something that we can po forment or is it just you say please be advised that right that's what I'm saying the advis how what we expect that we so that they can't necessarily expect to be put on the next planning board meeting for instance even if they've submitted P gr or or even the second one after that given the timing at the point when you would achieve completeness we will then discuss the date based on these factors so they can be aware of when the can see online when the meetings are and they can be aware of that the DAT they come for completeness no we will be say we we may have big come back have big applications it's managing expectations setting the store of what what we're GNA do with that like Bob said you this is your right you could put as long as it's not going to be contrary to Legal we can do you can put whatever you want that was going to be my next question in terms of we're saying we're going to come and have that discussion is it then we're going you're going to in that discussion give us the legal or are you going to prep something beforehand or what then what what then we say the checklist be to do it during the discussion yeah think there's anything here that's illegal right you know I mean we recognize we can't require certain approvals prior to us making our determination so you can't really require the checklist um I think it's just more logic and timing and what works for the girl but then some of these that because we haven't had a checklist for some types of thing before I understand it came we will need to act do ordinances to put some in is that then something then that Beth will identify out of which parts need an ordinance and pulling that out for us we do that after the next meeting of process all of you can answer that I'm just trying to work out what this will be I think you know my recommendation is that theard get comfortable check together and then the next step toet but I think that you should be comfortable with this so that the ordinances can from that have General Provisions your to say you got sub copies you want to clean up those and it could be saying that the ordinance must the applicant the is revised to say the applicate comp with checklist reating inad going are the of you going to together to makees I'm sorry are the three going work together to make sure there are no conflicts or redundancies in checklist okay we get together next talk about more yeah that's that's more of an editing thing all edit it I think any of us should no I honestly I think from the board members perspective is General stuff why don't we require this or why are we requiring it right or you know what you don't you don't say you want it for a variance application why not why don't you require that right or you know or I don't understand what this this one means um I think that's the level of the like I said the editing to make sure we don't have we we don't have duplication and that we you know whatever it's the whole idea this is really to have something clear and concise but also so an applicant can pick up this and read through it and say okay I I need to do that okay well I don't I don't want to do that I you know it's it's it's supposed to I mean somebody might look at this and say it's overwhelming but the idea here is to actually simplify things somewhat but at least make it clear you know what it is they're supposed to do just part A minut I think it's great and I appre and thank you for your work to get it to this point um I want everyone to really take the next few weeks seriously really come up with some great questions this is our chance to really make a difference on how we um process our applications and process it's great thank you so much for the work on it so far and um I don't find it scary I'm a squ sheet go to me it looks really exciting but that's that'll get that when do we want to have this more detailed [Music] discussion think we should be able to next me two possible is that enough time for all we might need we might need two two those I want to do it I want I want us while we're thinking about it put it at the beginning of the week I fresh after dinner and um I was be prepared for a good discussion about it you won't be here well I think we go into the week after the meeting after that's fine I'm just saying and I could give any thoughts or whatever initial thoughts on things like that but we'll have talked so really you know we'll all be P enough for our discussion next time um because I want to get going I don't delay let's see what we can get done next time we might need this this board likes to get into the weights on these when we really do these things we people going to the end green I love it and that's what we need this is our opportunity to do that um so we might need to do over two meetings let's keep that in mind I'm going try and bring everything next week next time um is that okay does anybody else have anything they want to discuss tonight on this I should we move on with what everyone understands what we got do I'm expecting at least four questions least three senten I'm just after semester this time but anyway okay thank you everybody for the inut on that we're going to move forward on the agenda for next um okay let's then move on to item new item 12 application hearing um your smile LLC application 2043 um this is 153 Broad St application for nonconforming do we need um to kind of explain to the this is an unusual thing we haven't really done this before right you want to do conflict the descri no let's let's just start right off the B before anyone who feels that they have any direct or indirect conflict either personally professionally or financially with regard to this Al I do Dennis okay Dennis then we'll have you recuse yourself okay do I drop or do I stay on and just don't say anything it's really your call okay [Music] have completeness and then chair item so it's really up to you okay I'll stay on and just be sent black so they're not really taking in you can listen but we won't look at yeah you turn your video on denn you can listen just can't take part thank you thank you very much see you you see us to the yeah so let's so let's start and we'll just start by saying um notice has been uh published and mailed in accordance with the uh Municipal law the board jurisdiction act in this matter um and what the applicant is requesting is Rel under your section um this would be section I'm sorry 68 um so it's uh section 40 call 55d 68 of La so this is not typical usually we operate under Section 70 A B C or D this section 68 happens when inevitably a municipality changes its uses that are allowed in a particular do or changes the zone of property changes something with regard to the uses of the property and many times you have uses that have been existing for quite some time and were legal until that point in time that you changed the so what the land allows for is two ways that that can Beal number one the applicant can go to the zoning officer within one year of the change of the zoning or the change that change that need no longer being allowed and say Here's my proof this is how I've used it it was legal now it just became illegal please give me a certification of a pre-existing nonconforming use but that has to be within one year of change if it's any time after that they have to come before this board for this section 68 approval of the same thing preexisting non performing use and this board acting as his zoning board BR or does not grant that use what they have to show is it was legal at the time that the use started it continued to be legal through the time that the ordinance changed and through and and then continued to be used that way to today so basically you guys have heard that word abandonment before we've heard the continuous it's right in it you know nonconforming but continuous use all the way through the time that it became illegal to today if you find that based upon the evidence presented what the municipality has because the applicant submitted a very well detailed letter um dated yesterday um that goes through what they were able to find and what they're going to present to the board um if based upon your review of that you feel that those criteria have been satisfied you can issue this pre-existing non-conforming use that would allow legally this use to continue with one caveat if they want to expand it they want to make any other changes they have to come back to this board so as long as they continue to use it in the same way same use and under the same conditions without expanding the scope or the size or anything like that this would be legal according to you going forward can I ask a couple questions um So currently it is Dental so if they wanted to change it to doctor that's a changing let's let them make their presentation okay may become important okay based upon what I'm seeing and based upon the ordinances office to office to office is actually the use that's happening inside okay so my other question is my other question is I always thought there was a a notion of we'll stay with the land so if this was approved and then the law changed why doesn't it stay with because you decided that that use is no longer allowed well F two ways first of all you decided the use no longer and second you bring up a very good point because if this applicant was able to show that a use variance at some point was granted for this property basically saying that the use was changed we acknowledge it changed and by virtue of the granting of the use varians we're allowing it to continue different story but this is just the way the land use law is it may not make much sense but because essentially it wasn't approved by any board at that time it was just Allowed by your zone so think of it this way if you have a subdivision or or something that that's protected for a period of time okay against any change in zone they can come landuse law allows for them to come in for additional time of protection and then it gets changed if they exceed that protection period you change your zoning even though you had to approval away that one the time period for them to act and and have protection from that zoning change without doing what they needed to do has expired so they have the come back just one of those I don't know if that was really as good of an explanation as I thought it was but that's really the issue the use itself was never approved it was just allowed because of the zoning they didn't have to come here for anything it was just automatically allowed my question follows on which is if they done what you said they were mitted to do a year after change we wouldn't need to do this either that would so and also if we choose to per if we choose to Grant this now that is in perpetuity unless they change the plan of the building substantially or unless the language is unless you exacerbate the nonform so you could do that a couple ways you could expand the scope of the use that they're presenting to you you could expand the size of the building you can decrease the size of the lot because presumably that increases the nonconformity there's a lot of different nuances to that so this has nothing to do with the transfer of the property to somebody else not all not all and and essentially I'll explain but this is a product of that because it was discovered during the transer so over so on that note so five years ago his zoning officer could have discovered it said oops this is but then they would have still needed to come because when was the change it was 20 thank you so much Miss kazinski and and thank you madam chair uh mayor it's great to be here here in the beautiful historic lemington uh thank you for having us here this evening I know we filed this application just a little while ago so I just want to thank the board and all the board's Professionals for accommodating us this evening your professionals and your staff have done a great job and responding to our open requests and putting review letters together on relatively short notice and we thank them all for that uh so Madam chair and and M kazinski as you indicated we have a unique type of application for certificate for you this evening I don't even know if I've introduced myself yet let me take a step back it's Derek gor from the LA firm of engl C of Taylor were over in first Cy at my client this evening is your smile LLC Soul member Dr Mada Ms she's atist right there she just waved everyone at the board and uh the owner current owner the property is Dr bakado right there he is my sole witness uh for this evening so uh just a little bit of background about this property it's identified is 153 Broad Street U on your street address and it's block 42 lot 17 on your official tax map um as MC Miss Manis identified in her Memo the property is comprised of approximately 33 Acres and is located in the burough single SF single family home Zone District it is improved with a one-story structure housing a dentist office which has been there since 1997 and utilized since 1997 as a dentist office as I will get into in a little bit later surrounding properties are developed with mixed uses multif family residential you have some single family residential there's some other commercial uses across the street from the subject property uh I will put Dr Mustafa pakada on the stand to testify later to uh put this on the record for an official um you know so there's an official record of the testimony but I'll summarize briefly uh Dr F you don't mind me calling that okay thank you Dr F uh acquired the property uh via deed dat is September 8th 1997 from 153 Broad Street Associates and uh just to respond to a note from uh Mr clerico pursuing to my review of the title policy there are no restrictions or incumbrances on the subject property uh So based upon some historical records which we received in response to an open request from the burough it appears that the structure occupying the property has long been utilized as an office building even prior to Dr F's 1997 acquisition and I attached some exhibits to the letter U which we provided yesterday or today um to evidence this so there was a site plan waiver application filed on or about February 19th 1992 and if everyone has a copy of that letter we can just turn to exhibit a you know I'm really quick this so we technically haven't seen this application complete yet so I'd like that you take that vote on this tonight but let Bob talk this goes back to what we were talking about before we don't have a completeness checklist for this type of application so Bob did do an email dated April 27 um where we just kind of went through where we are survived just through that just to simplify this I I actually cutting p cut a section of the ordinance that talks about General Provisions or requirements I just use that as a template uh and I went to and I told you with the initial submission what was provided what was not provided in terms of the items were not provided um what the applicant has submitted as of yesterday and took a quick look at it uh the description of the property is now Incorporated in this narrative that was item um a A8 on the attachment I gave you uh certification of the tax collector item D was provided um the um Affidavit of ownership was incorporated in his response uh so that's not that's item F that's now been provided item G was um C ification Corporation of partnership interest I I didn't see it just as a sole owner providor or yes she's a SLE member of the other um H uh was protective Covenant again there's a reference here the title wasn't actually provided but the representation from the applicant attorney is that there are no Covenant or restrictions or easements that would affect the the use of the application that's correct yeah some point you may want actually file a copy of tile you base that on uh item I was the um again first the location eement are indicating the AR any um um existing survey was not provided they've now provided it's part of their documents document that appears to be Serv uh and the rest of this really details on a plan they're not providing a plan um so in in that context um it's not really a completeness issue necessarily because again we don't have a check with saying they have to repr provide a plan U but in terms of there is they provided a lot of documentation uh as part of their submission the relat information that you're going to hear tonight about prior zing and uses and whatnot so I would say based on that I think we could leave it complete uh again as part of this hearing if you hear anything or there you think there information that's missing when you need to make a judgment you can certainly asked for if they can't provide it tonight you carry there so unless the has any questions Bob or the applicant we would need a motion in a second to the application complete get a motion told I can't Sor thank second people doing all the work yes that second right Council yes mayor Carol yes Mr Campion yes yes Mr Hill yes Whitman yes s yes call oh I'm sorry you're right no well actually if it's not a board board of adjustment but then we're acting as a board of adjustment in this matter specifically s but the mayor and not dealing with d variant only the board of adjust only part acting as a board of adjustment and Grant this section 68 so they not officially I don't want I say anything to technically let me this technically on a joint land use board you can act right when you are acting to approve just a variance no site plan because all you need it's a single family property and all you need is a setback variant you're acting as a board of adjustment so only members are voting but you're not acting to approve a d variance which would not refuse the mayor and Council because it's not but they're not actually on the board of adjustment correct per correct but you're you're functioning as aard adment in that instance all right so we'll leave it to you to tell us who come we have we had up to seven there's one more no because no we Hannah well Hann is a full m Hannah is a full member Mr sh recused it would be Mr E uh yes yes you can yes but yeah Dennis is minim yeah okay we're good thanking thank you madam chair thank to members of the board okay go there sorry that's no problem at all all right so now that we've cleared all that up um we're gonna Mark as our preliminary exhibits like we always do the application and sprorting documentation is going to be A1 the notice of publication submitted by um the applicants council is going to be A2 the letter dated April 29 2024 submitted by applicants Council will be A3 and then we do have M mcm's review letter of April 26 2024 which would be pb1 all right thank you so much and I invite you to take a trip down member Lane with me or down the rabbit hole as we go back into to the 1990s uh one of my favorite times we did some historical digging on this property and it was um it was it was very interesting so as I noted Dr ref acquired the site in 1997 indeed uh we did receive a site plan waiver application that was filed on our about February 19th 1992 and I'm turning to exhibit a now my letter of April 29th and this is a letter it's directed to the Flemington burough planning board it's from Heritage Consulting Engineers as I said dated February 19 1992 and there's a note here this is a uh gentleman I guess at the time the board only had men on it what it says gentleman in Clos here with is a site plan waiver uh site plan review waiver application the application was for uh it notes that the application was for an office building the uh applicant indicated or the applicants professional indicated that he was unaware of any previous site plan reviews and prior applications before the Flemington burough Zoning Board of adjustments he represents in the letter here that the building was originally constructed in 1961 and has been used for offices ever since continuously so there was an advertising deployment agency according to this letter there was a couple of different law firms and an engineering office office there and so this was an application for the National Council and alcoholism and dependence of hunon County who was proposing to occupy the building on a long-term lease starting April 1st 1992 and so with that application they submitted a location plan and so we go on to the next part which is exhibit B actually if you putli back if you continue to stay on exhibit a it looks like we actually did include uh the the plan the location plan for that application in 1992 and it is as it is today you have a one story frame building um and you have a parking lot in the rear of the site and obviously Broad Street is the frontage of it so if we go to exhibit B it does appear that the board uh approved the site plan review waiver application and notably I I included this specifically because in the second paragraph of the warehouse Clauses the board notes in the resolution of approval the premises were previously utilized as quote General Offices for Heritage Construction Consulting and so that is the first indication in the history hisorical records of this property that I found that there was an office building existing on this site the other thing of note here is that we see references in both exhibit a and exhibit a um exhibit B to the ra single family home Zone District which no longer exists here in in beautiful Flemington um interestingly we have not been able to locate an actual copy of that codified ordinance um it is nowhere in the Burrow's records we did file an OP request cler is have it on file um your online records are actually pretty great to go back to 2009 2012-ish area but they do not have a copy of that original ordinance so we have to kind of glean together um what was permitted Visa that ordinance and we can do that um the good thing is we can do that based upon the site plan waiver review application that was filed as well as the resolution of approval that the board adopted back in 1992 and both the site plan review application and also so the resolution we see references to the fact that an office General was a permitted use under that already single family home Zone district and Not only was it permitted it was actually approved for this specific structure so we have an office use which has lawfully existed here since at least 1992 and if the author of this 1992 February 19th uh 1992 application is to be believed and the board at the time did building the structure has been occupied by offices since 19 61 so we have a long history of an office use on this property now uh Going Back to the Future we're in 1997 now that's when Dr F acquires he P he purchases a subject property in 1997 fall uh notably what he gets then in 1998 the spring or the early spring March of8 is he applies for and I'm on Exhibit C now he applies for and he receives a certificate of occupancy and this is dated for the record March 5th 98 its permit number 98- or backlash 005 it's signed by your construction official handedly I cannot read that curse of writing okay and and notably in the upper right hand corner of that certificate that's noted there conversion of existing office to dentist office so that's the first recognition in a official's owning document by burrow that we have a lawfully existing dentist office use here and I thought that was very significant for this application because what we're proposing here today is the same as what has been existing for nearly three decades Dr Ms she's right there she's also a dentist she is in the process of acquiring uh this structure to continue it for a dental practice there are no changes proposed to the building there are no changes proposed to the use it's simply going to continue as a dentist office um as wi kazinski noted the issue really came about how we got here before the board is because she filed for a zoning permit and of course with the change in the zoning in about 2012 that I'm going to get to in a minute your zoning officer went through the ordinance the new Zone ordinance and says I don't see of is permitted here in this ordinance um which is why they were unable to issue the zoning permits which of course in most real estate transactions is something that a a purchaser will require prior to closing so that's how we got here today so uh before I put up Dr F to provide the factual basis for the ongoing use of the premises as a dental office I thought it would be helpful just to point out a couple other things u in response to my o request we did receive a handful of other permits issued by your Construction office uh in December of 1999 I'm looking at exhibit d uh he received permission to reface two signs presumably Dr ref was probably changing out the name on the signs to reflect his new business we see in this would be 2001 that's the same exhibit there exhibit D March 15 2001 he replaced some furnaces and then we get to exhibit a and I'll ask Dr up about this and he'll testify to this we have here it appears to be a plot plan and uh it looks like Dr F received permission from your zoning office to install a 4 foot high fence uh in the rear side yard of the property and you can see there it's dated May 18th 2012 um and it Bears his name on the bottom of it so we can see here based upon the documentation that we provided that we have a long history of a dental office on this property it's been recognized in various permits and and certificates issued by your zoning officer we have the uh you know we we believe we have established that uh an office use was permitted under this old ra single family home District so where are we today well what we know is that in 2012 and it's uncertain to me whether it occurred in the fall of the spring but at some point in 2012 the ra Zone was eliminated in favor of the single family SF Zone and that zone eliminated the permitted office use from the many uses which are permitted in yoursf zone um nevertheless uh Dr F has continuously occupied the property utilizing it as a dental practice even through code so we have an ongoing use of the property which still exists today which is proposed to continue as a dental practice so that's my opening Spiel I apologize I ran on I typically don't go on this long um but that's my opening Spiel it's kind of an interesting issue and unless the board has any questions for me I would call Dr EP to the stand to testify at su's ongoing use of the property as a dentist office is there another mic or where does he uh that one [Music] the record we just need to be able to see I need to be visible on camera but you will be there that's pery yes can you just your person name for us first name is Mustafa m o s t f a last name is f a k h r z a d e h can you just turn on the video to be in the bottom left hand corner y oh there I am all right okay T thank you for being here tonight welcome to the Joint land use board um why don't you just please pronounce your last name because I feel terrible I may have butchered it the first time I attempted to do it and I want you to correct me thank you for being here why don't you introduce yourself to the board tell the board what what it is that you do my name is I as a dentist I've been in Flemington since 1990 and I used have my practice in front of fton Mall excuse me Karen he got to pull the microphone closer real close yeah as everybody who Liv in Clemington for a long time they know the mall went down and I was one of the last people who moved out of the mall and I acquired the existing building and apply for permit I changed to dental office and I'll take so when did you you you well you're the current owner of 153 broad correct yes and you acquired that in late 1997 correct yes and you were a you operated a dental practice at your prior location correct yes and when you moved to 153 Brad you opened up a dental practice there correct yes and you obtained as I referenced a certificate of occupancy to convert the building to a dentist office in 1998 correct yes and since 1998 2012 did you operate a dental practice there yes and did you continuously stay open in your dental practice at that location yes and post 2012 when it appears that the Zoning for the property changed that you also continue to stay open as a dentist practice yes there was no interruption since I've been moving to that practice yes so since 1997 you have for 1998 for the co you continuously occupied the property as a dental practice correct yes that's all the questions I had on direct for Dr Pani and I opened him up to the board for any questions the board's professionals we us to go TR our professionals first do any of you have any questions for this witness and this m Okay no Okay anybody from the board have questions for this witness please I'm see no online I'm good thank you when I walk into this qu building I'm G call a building I walk in that's got sectionary it's how is it outed it's or fitted out it's fitted out completely as a medical facility that's yeah that's that's the question it's fed out specifically as a medical facility thank [Music] you no I you're you're a soul practitioner the only dentist in your office oh actually my son is a period artist and he works part time also I used to have other specialist basically I'm doing most of and do you have a high ten no how many how many um Dental rooms are there five operatories five yes okay any questions thank you oh actually sorry I just to up to the public thank you m thank you now I I love to spend time before board uh but really uh for this type of an of an application that's all that there is to it um we've established I respectfully submit that we have established that the use predated the change of the zoning orance uh I also respectfully submit that we have established that the use was permitted um back in 1992 uh and also continued in 1997 and 1998 all the way through its present day as today Dr up was open today so I respect I have nothing further unless the board has any questions I can offer close have a question do you know what the DAT of that building when it was built the closest reference we found and I also took a look at your tax records was 1961 so it was built in 61 and it was occupied as an office building in 1961 according to all these documents according to what I've seen that's it was never occupied as a house not according to what I've seen and actually your tax records also classify it as a fora commercial property um back at what time I looked at it as of today but I also looked at 1997 and it was still classified um back then I don't know if this is a legit question but my attorney is is it your opion has always been occupied as an office building based on your research based upon my research the records that we have obtained the independent research that we have undertaken and also you know the conversations with Dr ref who's been there since 1997 it appears that has always been occupied as an office of some sort it's correct does doctor has it ever been occupied as a like like the engineer Le kind likeing on the top floor sleeping in a down chair it's not to say somebody got in the dark house you know at home and had to stay there at night but you know oh to the best of all knowledge no it's never and is it intended um that it would ever be occupied that way as a a work situation the answer is no but I'm going to look around at my client no I like my bad so the testimony is not the testimony is no it's going to the use will continue office right yes thank you so we kind of asked some questions while you were it's okay took advantage but come back to we us go professional board and so I just and you may want to do this after they ask their questions I don't know just reate the laws for the board and understanding they ask me some questions I don't want to be speaking for you but just kind of want to go through how that takes into account testimony and then what the board's basically there's no you did not bring up um the purchaser so for the board there is absolutely no intention to expand this that's correct that's Min let me let me answer that um in a different way we have not filed any application to expand the use of the property have not filed any this is not even an application for development oddly enough this is just simply a certificate so there is nothing proposed before the board to modify you know the parking or to expand the use or to expand the structure this is simply to get a certificate to which basically memorializes what is already a v of right in our opinion and we hope the board agrees and certainly we could first of all it would be implicit in statutes that are applicable to this approval we could specifically put in there that any expansion any change any enlargement anything of that nature would require them back for this board which again they would be required to do anyway but if the board comfortable we could exp put that this so professionals questions for this witness I I just want to give the opportunity right because what you said wasn't on the record right so that you were given them the opportunity what you said in the record so I'm happy to um unless there's any other questions from yes I I one question in the the memo that you filed just the other day you said in here that ordinance 12-1 was that the plac the district that's what it appeared to be from the the Burrow's website but I'm not so sure that that's the correct um reference that's what I saw on ecode um ecode is not always cified correctly I just I think it was prior to 2010 the earliest master plan I have is the 2010 master plan and in there the ra district is not addressed so I I'm pretty certain that zoning must have changed prior to 201 but I just want to record to the so we don't so we don't have CH yeah it seems to change sometime between 19 1998 but your SF Zone District was adopted it appears in 2012 right so that's the subsequent zoning ordinance for this property I'm not so think the SF District existed in 2010 it existed in 2010 yeah then there's a error on the eode codification reference okay I I think that's more likely given the master plan would have been adopted it's probably right okay so that happens some sometimes we did yes not just e no no we follow but that that date doesn't actually affect what we we have to do anyway it's just a point of detail record when that when that happened when that change happened because the evidence presented to the shows that there was Chang shall I summarize I have one more question I don't professional not for you but I'm just wondering if um as was mentioned that if we if the board deems and moves ahead and approves this um request this application you were saying that it's very important to that anything from this point on that would be changed needs to be they have to come with but considered an expansion of a pre-existing non-conforming use we're you're not granting a use variant if they were here for a d variant then as mayor asked before that would be something that runs with the land in perpetuity and then that would be different right you're granting ceric of exactly what is there today as a pre-existing non-conforming use any expansion as defined by case which is too much to go into you have to basically do Case by case basis and then require my question at this point not related to that is that do we feel this is exhibit a planed as a plan a plan ated in 19 February 1982 would this then become the official plan we would compare any expansions or contractions or the things that you suggested again do we feel this is the sufficient plan to say this is the FL record well that's a very good point and we could discuss um I presume there's going to be a survey that's going to be prepared in connection with this purchase we did not no Dr Ms did not commission a survey um but I also want to note that on exhibit e there is an updated drawing which is what I referenced earlier regarding the fence that was installed in the in the rear side yard so that wouldn't be reflected on that old site plan from 1992 Dr F or not this attachment as an exhibit to fix the current conditions and would be willing to use this as the this is kind of of a partial production I'm a little uncomfortable on this we do need a baseline so we're not that's why I was thinking a survey in connection with purchase still working he's the Tony is that's the one I'm holding up is in a the one in in has some of the detail from a but it's it's so I don't we certainly can't use that I just if that's want to go by I think we need to ask and Ure that that depicts the current condition are we legalizing by doing we legalizing have I'm just looking to get as said a baseline of if if once we've done this future requests would come against what this is the only point which we're memorializing what theot consists of out I would I would just add not to overly complicated it but there's it's the the idea with the certificate is is it's the use that's being it's a pre-existing use which is being permitted to continue um certainly over the years and actually it's in the record Dr R was pulled various permits um for for you know minor improvements to property I mean there was furnace that was that was done there was signage that was refaced that was all done through a standard permitting process which is overseen by the town's uh administrative staff and other professionals so I'm I'm very hesitant to rely upon kind of a rough uh you know Oprah production or something from 1992 that was not prepared by by Dr F or by Dr muns as setting the Baseline I would be very comfortable and I would I would respectfully suggest to the board just a description of the use of the property if the board deems it appropriate and the resolution with as much detail as as you may suggest or the board professionals may suggest would be really a good way of encapsulating what is permitted what was previously there and what is contined to be permitted um by way of a certificate the certificate is a unique thing it's not a as I noted before it's not actually this is not actually an application for development which is why there's no site plan there's no survey it really has to do with just the use that was there before which was lawfully there uh and maybe I'm getting into tying up my I we appreciate that but I do and I I agree with you to a certain extent um signage is not according to case an expansion of the use that's placement of sign same thing with furnace same thing with I think what the board is just trying to gauge and again maybe they don't have to worry about it with this applicant but you know some may think something may happen down the line if there's an extra Dental chair for extra Dental space that is then included so now we have six chairs instead of five according even though it doesn't ex it doesn't change the use it expands the non-conforming use and case law wise that would have to come back before the sport I think that's what we're trying to get a gauge of right now and they may not ultimately care that that happens um but I think that's what you're asking I'm just trying to find yeah not so much let me see if there's a survey just real quick as exist because that would be when we come to a change bu [Music] of the ex what should correct here is that based on the evidence that's been submitted there never was a site plan this in 1961 right and I did confirm through historical Aerials in 1963 there was a building here and it did have a parking lot behind it um and and the documentation is being presented when when Leo santoso made his submission for the changeing use um and the documentation he submitted at that time was a serving scul appication plan of the property showing what was there at least as of that point in time I don't know what the source of this other exhibit that went with the um um that fence I don't know I don't know what that is where that came from I gu it's only part of the property so I guess you don't know either but it's a nice picture but beyond that I don't know what that the only official document to the you want to say it's official is this location this is an exhib anyway my worri at some point somebody comes and we've memorialized something without being CL being really clear about what plan we've memorialized is that this is an exhibit I guess I'm answering my own question maybe at this point this is an exhibit in this and this can then be referred to if they come with an expansion of the physical it could be referred to they can tell us whether that was accurate or not again we don't have something currently but something else I'm think I'm trying to think about this logically as well this is not a single family home this is a commercial building that if there ever was a physical expansion or any change other than your placement fence anything like that repay would happen if for right because it would be commercial not resent so presumably you'd see it again in that aspect and then be able to raise all these we mention that in recover any futusion that's what I'm to do this memorializing this confusion if you want to quite possible you might want to expand the building very successful just I want to make sure we're giving that future board everything that can have agree and since we don't have the underlying ordinances to refer back to I think that because usually you do I mean and and we're kind of deficit at this point by that that helps excuse me Mr we have is there a way for us to capture that 1963 Arrow image as part of this it's not actually we have current of property this is just one well we have current I mean there are current and I internally because we're having this discussion we can't find the old ordinance whatever and I found that old aerial um photography from 63 to see just when this building got built the reference from Mr saso in 19 was 1992 his representation was that he's saying that there there was was never any site plan approval for this building and it was built in 1961 the presumption I would take from that is that was prior to the Bur having regulations relating to submission um the document you have that is attached to this 1992 uh location plans does show 16 parking spaces current aerial view of the property indicates there's no parking Pace to strike on this SP so I don't know if the applicant's going to go straight parking spaces that gets into an issue where you have to show to comp again you you're just it just lacks this type of thing lacks lacks detail um and they're not here for a site plan um they're here for continuing use or conforming use um and we have an exhibit that shows parking from 19 I can't 82 I guess 9290 um that wouldn't be compliant with today's standards and we have the site it say there's nothing St out there I don't know when this was taken but um I went out there today I didn't go to the site so I have no idea like you say that's separate to the that's yeah that's as Council indicated you're asking ask cic stat says the expansion ofuse that's Define then on a Case by case basis what would be done at the time that there was an allegation of the expansion or request the expansion so I mean I I definitely don't think we should be getting into SCI details I understand what you're asking for but when it comes they would have to show that this is what existed at the time and this is what we have now and you know I don't want to get too much into it because then again we start opening some pans of Wars there um I'll check if anybody else has any other questions then before we close anybody have any anybody online have any questions no okay did you have something Jim or you were saying you didn't have anything no I have no questions thank you Shing head a not Don you're good Mike you're good I'm good can I get a motion to close the public he and we opened it up to all the public on um I thought I did anybody in the public have a question or comment on this at this point you see on online is right nobody in the room see none I get a motion to close the public [Music] here I just thank the board for your thoughtful deliberation and consideration of this application we appreciate your time and all the efforts of you and your professionals and respectfully request that you approve this request Rel the certificate thank you thank you can I get a motion to close the public hand I get somebody online to second that please uh second thank you that was Mr take a vote please then swingle yes Mr E yes yes yes Mr Campion yes yes Mr H yes yes thank you very much wa I was like that was unanimous okay that was close well okay you see me I'm making mistakes up here all the time the next part is can I get a motion is anybody um ready to make a motion to what the motion whatever make them I've been told off making motions before so is anybody prepared to make a motion I am yes as long as we reference njsa 455d s68 because that's the the specific langage and I don't know what we do about a state survey like well let me say this we make a motion to take certain action then we can discuss as part of that discussion I conditions that you might want to consider okay and then the motion could be amended to incorporate those and then so the motion is so the motion is what [Music] to to memorialize so you're approving the request for issuance of a certificate of preexisting but we should so that's the motion need a second for that motion so that motion is limiting this to being a dentist office yes right because that's the application that's before all right so what do LS decides to sell to a chiro teacher back right do I get a second Mr thank you so now we can discuss the motion on on the table um that's thetion so I mean discussion so I I really hate the idea of every single different use that could possibly be coming back to this site it does not expand the footprint this building having to come before the planning board in the future the langage board you know it's been I mean I can visualize and remember being lost I mean I remember it and [Music] um so so that so the motion as it stands having she decides to sell the business again and and it's some other office use that it bothers me that that this is going to be repeated again you know defici Insanity you know it's been so many things for the last 60 years 60 years um and to that point then can I ask what is ex dental office is clearly excluded because they've had conflicts what else is excluded what is included in that zone what I mean we're not going to go through the whole list but roughly what what are we opening at so anything that's included in that zone is a they can do they can change it what I'm saying right so the thees [Music] in single Home Place worship uh Cemetery municipal use so everything except for the first one doesn't pay taxes so we're not gonna let that happen right we're not gonna let it ever become something that doesn't pay taxes because we have enough of that and what and then things are specifically excluded does that still include offices or is it just dental office only become a single family home or become something that doesn't pay taxes a cemetery a municipal building a church a community garden right so it's either a single family home she can convert it into a single family home s somebody wants to make it to a single which is fine or or it could be converted to another dentist office it could be turned over once again from Dr to that would that would be allowed within what we're doing now within dental offices only the dental office yeah because that's what promotion is it can be a dental office but it can't right right right you want to expand that now to allow all some other usage then then we get and other uses of them just that what you suggesting you want well I'm just thinking you know it's been it's been an office building we've got an areal that Bob found showing parking a parking lot behind it in 19 so um I just but but there's no other buildings within that zone that are allowed to do that except this is they're only asking to be keep it as a d BL right so then if it came as a presumably changing it to a office office the ret fitting inside anyway would be a change because it's there's a different requirement within the building Dental space the general office that's correct we don't allow general office that's I know it was we believe it wasn't general office at P it's been the V office for so long I I feel that's I'm feeling minded to to give them what they're asking for totally understand you're I don't want to get into listing out now what else similar to what they did in 1992 if you want to change it to something else irrespective of the use issue that you're raising it would would raise the question of site plan they would have to do what they did 19 either come in ask a waiver of a site plan or or obtain a site plan I mean it could be different parking depending on what the use parking standards there could be I mean I don't know we're speculating here oh that's true I mean if they change into a restaurant and begin okay so then I'm gonna I'm gonna okay so that's the way it is we're gonna keep the motion as it is and then add pile on else we might want like a survey we want I don't know I don't know I I I mentioned the survey but I think this memorializing this L is as good as we should expect to get at this point she used for this application that're asking I was going beyond what was but if other people feel differently on the board they can certainly Chim in so the other conditions I had just to kind of throw everything on the table um Bob had asked for a copy of the title search just confirming that there are no covenants or easements represented by Council there was also a representation that this a single member LLC that was the applicant again just something that kind close the loop on it and and put that into the record um any expansion of the pre-existing non performing use would require return return of this board um as per and you it's an application under Section 68 we would also reference that as well um there's more than a ton of case lock that interprets exactly what that is so that would all fall into line and again instead of identifying it here let whatever future applicant bring that to the board because that's what you would be governed by um and that's what I had and then stand theot weather um okay so that's our condition so anybody else um on the have anything they want to say before we go put that motion to a vote anybody have anything they want to add Mike I'm good good good good I'm good so y so we don't have to motion the motion included anys councilwoman forar yes Mr EO Mr E I'm sorry Mr E I don't know if i t uh yes thank you um mayor Carol yes Mr Campion yes yes Mr Hill yes Whitman yes thank you everyone on the board I appreciate thank you everyone for your time and your attention my pleasure we usually have a break but um we only got a couple of things we'll get these things have a so I understand the application see that that's being carried to the next meeting so right we do need to discuss completeness in the same manner that discussed before I do need to kind of step back from this again but I think between Bob and and the board they can answer all your questions because what you would to do is to deem it complete or incomplete so that then I can let them know that that's been done and they all right move ahead with that and application see application 20242 lot 41 19 U 189 Main Street this is coming up from a similar um issue to the last one a denial on we're looking for about permit and looking for a non-conforming use certificate but correct so I did something almost identical to what I did with the prior application I um I did an email to the board I also did an email to the applicant um kind of explaining what what the issues were um and I just again we don't have a checklist for this so I'm just relying on the provisions of section 1501 from the ordinance um and I highlighted what what was provided uh the app you did do somewhat admirable job of putting together an explanation of what what this thing property is uh what we don't what we don't have here is uh any information on the Zone just I just just literally reading from what I submitted item eight Zone District information the nine a description of the property um 10 a description proposed apparently this is not a proposed development it's an existing structure but an explanation of how it's currently being used um going down on item nine the tax certification um as the payment of taxes um going down to item H uh again a title search on the property to see if there's any restrictive easements or covenants um item uh I um again if there are if it's similar to the prior application if the applicant has to survey the property that would be a very appropriate document to submit you know as part of this um again when you go to plans there are no plans being filed a survey of the property indicating what's on the property would certainly be would be appropriate uh the certified list of owners he he would need to obtain if he's going to schedule at some point when he schedules for uh a public hearing um uh again issues relating to the the the current uh use on the property other zoning related information again it's not a site plan they're not here for that um but um we don't have any information with any parking requirements or lot coverages that's that's G six item six under item L which would be the the site plan so again if they submitted a survey that would show with the lot coverages and basic information that would be that would be helpful not sure required in the situation but it would certainly be helpful uh and catch what the what the zoning map is uh and properties within 500 feet again I'm just reading from what I indicate here um that's what would be the minimum amount of information to submit as part of this and similar to the last application you're going to need some historical information about obviously this Ford Bed Ford dwelling unit unit is not compliant with the current zoning um we have they're going to submit what the zoning is but apparently what this one is not it's not compliant to whatever exists there today um any kind of history on the property when it became a for you know when it was convert was it built as a for you know a for unit dwelling whenever was constructed this appears to be much older structure um again any historical the applicant heard what the prior application submitted so that would give some guidelines as to what the board might be looking to yeah and our attorney contract attorneys suggest that they ask these questions not here present right now I mean I think no I me our attorney can those questions can't ask you those right now um I don't um as to what what I know I'm sorry car looking for a little bit of guidance and couple questions sure go ahead this has been a resident I purchased this house and so the people in yeah my name is Doug SE I'm the owner of this um property at 189 Main Street I've been I live on 76 M Street I've own M quite a few properties in town I've been in town for 30 years I've owned this place for over 30 years when I purchased it um it was a four family and the owner prior to me in 1978 had it as a four family it's been listed on the New Jersey um Community Affairs certificate it's been registered within state of New Jersey since 1978 it's always been a four family and I'm only here because I'm looking to sell it and the buyer asked if this was on for family so I went down to the building department and I said I just need a document and uh they said well it's now a non-conforming use structure and I said I've owned it this long I didn't even know the zoning changed so I had to send a letter in to find out what I needed to do and the documentation that I presented was for the burden of proof to proof that it's been a PO family since 1978 almost 40 years I've never altered the building it's been upcut it's better than shape than when I purchased it but you're asking for plot plans and surveys which I could get them or a picture of but it's really just for me trying to get a certification that it's for family can we understand and you just it was maybe it was helpful to you maybe it wasn't but you just heard a whole Somebody went through the exactly the same process but it's not a hearing I'm trying like do I have to really send this out to the people within 200 feet I mean it's just a definition of what is same seems a little exensive I'm going to do something I've always been a I'm going to play a turn here you have to follow the same process that that the prior applicate did there is a there is a notice required um and you have you did a very nice job in in the letter you submitted but if you have this type of documentation you need to submit it was you know was this ever you g maybe have to do an open request to see if this was ever before we go on what when was when was the zoning change on this one the past one was so far in the past this one's much more recent is he is he within the 12 months no was was was no was in was before I became mayor done last the last but it's clarified as a even with the the fire department I I pay they have a four apartment that they I pay every year and they come in they garbage they give me four recycling same as the previous applicant had the same issue right you they have was aeral issue it wasn't a commercial issue never it really doesn't matter so every other multic I have in the town I have to do this might the others might be in a zone that allows it I don't know but what if they're not I mean it's a grandfather clause that I thought I'd be able to be entitled to this is seems a little like I didn't know the zoning changed and I've owned it 40 like for 30 years you know I think there's a and I don't know if this is part of the confusion there's a distinction between being deemed a pre-existing non-conforming use which is a special category that says your in this case for family home was created when the zoning permitted it and that's that puts you in a a more advantageous position in case you want to expand the building in the future so if you get the certificate that's you'll that be your status your your pre-existing nonconform use if you don't get the certificate it's not a matter of the the use might not be conforming but it's not it's not a matter of that you're not grandfather um unless the unless there's evidence that the building was created um illegally uh without a d variance but there's you know I think there's a distinction that maybe needs to be made between getting this status of certificate nonconform use versus being told that you need to remove units from the property those are two different things so I just want to make sure that's clear well a future buyer I understand they want that certificate it creates value he's allowed to use it as a for future buyer without this non isssue right I mean it's always going to be a for family whether or not it's I get the certificate I you can't take that away from what I'm doing or future buyer correct so what is the purpose of like what do trying to achieve we're trying to we're trying to document for the record what what exactly what this is what the current zoning would allow how this deviates from the current zoning and how this came to be again to the best of anybody's ability when was was this when was this house built 100 years ago yes was the build before bed before unit dwelling again you got to do whatever research you could do to make the best case you can make and maybe the information exists maybe it doesn't exist we can I just interject a second please because I appreciate what you're saying we we're getting into we and discussion that I think because Cara can't say anything it makes more Awkward because she's conflicted right so we just appointed a conflict attorney am I right in thinking that we're in a situation where you you it needs you you need to communicate with that conflict this is a business or individual I'm individual I'm an owner and I wanted it's a four family house that I own now I'm like I don't quite understand what I'm trying to achieve for the previous application can I talk to about that car that they they've been speak you've been in communication about how to get this process through for the previous application right so that's what I'm wondering all wondering now is for Mr s to have more clarity on what he needs to achieve maybe we need to get you you can now we've appointed the other attorney into place of C you understand why we had to do that and she's conflicting I understand so we've appointed somebody else if then we can have that attorney talk to you about and answer your questions more clearly on the legal aspects of what is required to be happen feeling that you're not not clear on that ex that EXA would that be a good F the checklist isn't even really the checklist is irrelevant for this right so now now you're asking me to do a lot on a checklist that's a very expensive proposition you just and it doesn't exist well that's your checklist right you're you're saying some I'm reading from Reading from provision of the ordinance that talks about the type of information they don't have a spef the reason I suggested that we have you talk to the conf attorney that we just appointed is that then we can get better CL we I'm not a lawyer not a lawyer and it seems like you have legal questions to ask and I think that is for me to suggest that you do that and then we want to continue this process with through on the agenda for you because I understand you're in the situation prev that you want to there's a sale you want this there there's a minimal esro we we do need to because it's really not clear in the ordinance I requested a minimum um $500 which is not going to go very far if you start talking to the the attorney for the conflict attorney you're going to be taking those fees um I do recommend that you should probably talk to um maybe even do you know the the attorney that was just here before he you saw all of the work that he he did and all of the the proofs and all the history that he provided to the board those are those same things that the board is going to try to it's just a very proposition just prove that I have a four family for 40 years we areed by the law and regulation we can't do it other than the way we just kind of repr and that's how I understand it so you would you want us to go do you want us to deem this complete at this moment or do you want to talk process is we deem your application complete and then we can schedule a hearing of that which is exactly what we did with if he's submitted enough information which we can vote y or that we can give it to you I'm saying so we wanting to for you so we put you down as a completeness here this is what we're supposed to be doing right now but we don't feel I I just wondering if you're even point we understand where we're going so we can't do understand just I'm frustrated because I have other multifamilies that because you change the zoning I get caught in the middle of it and the crosshairs and a very expensive compeition for something that I just I know I'm not I'm not blaming anybody so I think you know and I was on the planning board then but I think that you know we when the when the planning board and the council changed that zoning it was to prevent any more large torians in the area being cut into pieces um so that's that's but but that doesn't mean I don't know where your other properties are Mr it doesn't mean the other properties aren't still in areas that allow it um you know no I understand but this one specifically is the one that right I understand that but but but when the zoning got changed to not allow single family homes to be anything but single family homes um and and and made it illegal to have a you know multi family home grandfathering that's why I asked that question in the beginning of this I thought but because there was nothing to be grandfathered we don't have any proof that it was there we know I mean that house was built as a single family Victorian home in the 1800s and the NPC probably can give you history on the house historic preservation commission they could probably give you a history on the house because they are the keepers of the histories um registering in the state of New Jersey for the community of par but that doesn't tell us how it got there no it only tells us what is there it doesn't tell us how it got there the way that Mr or showed um how you know we got there that there were pictures showing a parking lot 60 years ago but I can continue to use it as my family and able to get a certificate a certificate of [Music] what um we can't complete because we don't have complete at this point so and that's the process we have to go to suggest you have to talk to the attorney that were appointed that can help you deal with this I have a couple question your name my name is Jennifer I'm helping him kind of sort of um I did ask for an Oprah request I requested an Oprah um they said I need to specifically asked for what I wanted which was fine um I specifically asked for zoning changes and they only that will not show up on the Oprah so whereabouts do we go to find when the zoning changed and what are the notifications like the the like how are people notified when the zoning was changed given that he's been in plumton for you know 30 years where was the notification that it changed was it just in a Democrat or was there a letter sent like how would he have known that so he could come before the board within the 12 months well it's only It's contained with in the master plan right there so any changes to the master plan and all the master plan documents are online so you can go to look at all those Master the in the best I can tell you is in 2010 the SF District permitted only single family homes and so I think that's your I'm in a TR District I'm sorry you're in the TR District so in 2010 the TR District permitted two family homes and that's it as far as residential use go so permitted two family homes so it seems that if your property was converted to a four Family Home and it was done so legally it needed to have occurred prior to 2010 which is I think consistent with your documentation and so the question is when did the four family home start on that property and what was the zoning in place at that time those are that's basically the two questions that this Board needs to understand from you in order to give you that certificate when did the four families the four Apartments get created what was the zoning so where is there any suggestion on where he would go to find that prior to 1978 because he has proof of that as of 1978 but how like where would he what direction would he even go to find that to prove the so um it would be it's two things so one you can go back in the house records try to figure out when the four families were created it might have been created before zoning it might have been done before zoning was even adopted for the bur maybe it was done in 1940 for example and so there might be some evidence in the home records maybe in the historical records that indicate the history of the home and when multiple families were living in it um and so if you've been document that it was done prior to burrow zoning like for example in 1940 eonian was originally adopted in this town it's typically 60s maybe early 70s um that would potentially be the proof that you need for the certificate or you need to prove that when that maybe the four family home was created uh when zoning was in place and at that time the zoning permitted the the four families and so if you want to try to find the zoning information I don't know exactly what you're overread but that's the right that's the right Avenue is to ask for all zoning changes that uh that might have occurred during this time period the B may or may not have those ordinances actually did specifically ask for that and they told me that I would not but it that wasn't possible okay like I was filling it out standing there and she said that's you're wasting your time yeah I mean for the board for the board's information I made similar requests for the last application and uh staff were unable toble um my concern is like you could run a title search and you can have your title search policy that's not it's not going to not going to show anything it's only going to show easement the but the other I'm sorry the other place you might want to check is the Hun County planning board I don't know when they started but they keep uh ordinances and master plans for each of their communities including Flemington okay so you may want to go to the planning Board review it as far back as you can to try to find out when that zoning changed they might it's not guarantee but they might have something yeah because that's just that's that's the hard part is finding because again it's not going to come up in a title search and if there's nothing if there's no records with Z like pulling an Oprah kind of like we're we're hitting that brick wall so I've seen in other communities I've seen evidence submitted that dealt with the type of um in the back case they were I me this is very unique but just to give you some inspiration maybe they were looking at the electrical panels in this case it was a two family home they were looking at the electrical panels which had the manufacturer name we were matching the manufacturer to a company that closed in I don't know 19 68 to determine that the four panels have separate for each but you know if you look at the home if you look at the property records you might find something that indicates when each of those units was were created so I that's a very specific example but I just share it to maybe give some inspiration about what El County planning board is one one of your neighbors Mrs zinc has lived there forever she might have some institutional knowledge she lives right couple houses down uh towards north m a couple Heavens up from you in that house this is z she's been there forever what does that prove give us the answer knowing that it was existent before so that you're asking for a continuous of a non-conforming use we have to show when it when it became that use so long enough to be clear if we got a testimony if we got some evidence from electrical boxes is that going to be sufficient if there's nothing else we can find and I I'll certainly go to the county and see if they have anything but again hbcs really ask you I live in a historic home so they a lot of research on the houses and and so one of the things we found when we're talking about um the the electrical boxes some of those you might have still hanging around somewhere some and it might still be sitting in there but if you go it we we still have I don't want to say they're dead wires because it's all through but the HC was able to help us like to even get down to um some Framing and things for our house because our house is the store what contri I'm contributing so was built like 1908 1909 uh you might be able to find things like where the plumbing changed we know the plumbing changed in our house over the years so there may be something like I think of our old Plumbing we just had something come out there was literally on the pipe like 1948 something had been down there so there is some way without going into all your walls because you never want to do that so when it defines when it changes then how does that apply to Z because you're trying to prove that it's been a family and we're trying to kind of pin down before the 1978 we're trying to pin down when they converted it prior to the zoning and we don't know when the zoning they did it after the zoning if you made it you wouldn't be per you wouldn't be permitted to put make it a PO family after the zoning change it'll continue to exist you need you need to prove when the zone and changed to not allow it but also you need to prove that you were in existence for that because if you prove that the four family was in in existence after the zoning change that's an illegal change right we know you don't have that in this situation but you have to prove the distance of time between the two things you get I think you I I understand completely what you're saying my my concern my bigger concern my biggest concern is proving when it was done when there's no changes to the proper also ask for a record of any Ms you can that might I mean I don't know what's happened here but um but again you're building up the best record you can build up yeah different the different and that was great okay can they spend over would they be able to search for board approvals that were yeah actually I think I did that and um I don't think anything came up with this this block and law so I think it you there was no site plans no applications I have minutes from the board um going back um 1960s 1960s um and I you can you're I could email them to you you can go through all of those um when you when you do your OAS you're you're opening a a record or said records they have be very specific like right you between this date and this date or you know yeah just hard when you don't know exactly well you know you're for a zoning Chang Old Town that just you know yeah didn't didn't keep a lot of a lot of little That's Not Unusual it's not unfortun and there's always a gap between when the the files were deeper and when they went online I feel like that I run into that a lot in different towns as well there's always like a missing chunk people have trouble with try we're doing lots of like leaves toy try out try that I say we can have the tney that's been assigned to this just quickly we'll see where we can go first and then this is little far-fetched but uh does he have a survey the property you have a survey for when you purchase must had surve you may want to check with some of the oldtime surveys were somebody if you had a survey from that somebody did on this thing from 19 you know 70 or 1960 on the survey they the survey would have indicated what the structure was was a single family or was a four whatever you got to you're you're searching for evidence right because the Board needs evidence in order to come to some sort of decision right a wonderful owner we just don't want you to spell in 1996 I could hand just when you talk to the attorney as well I maybe I say you have multiple proper option that's that's a question for them I'm just suggesting time we figure out sorry we but I feel like we've given you some some G Point thank you very much thank you all right so we to item 14 did you want te that incomplete oh do we have to do anything specific um we did not to do anything because the clock is scking um on if it's completeness 45 days because if they need to um have a hearing um they won't make the 14th if they it is being complete that way the the next meeting isn't until June uh 9th need some more too so I think we have to a motion to declare the application not in complete I have motion Miss swingle yes councilwoman fararo yes mayor Carol yes Mr Campion yes um yes Mr Hill okay yes yes show did no no um I think I need to uh ruse myself I live within 200 [Music] feet thank you yeah I've been listening but I all right so Qui um shair items item 14 next meeting is May 14th regular meeting we it says public in but they've because we because we made the announcement to continue without further notice so we would have to make another continue we would have to be on the agenda and we would have to make another continuation unless they were going to provide new notice I don't know what the board that's was the last time they did I the last time they came before well that we know but I for some reason I feel like we asked them to notice again so they did was that before the last time they came you we do we ask them just want well they they had a letter to carry the hearing um to 3:22 in an extension of time um in March do we know at all that the relief was going to change Bas I don't want this yeah but I didn't know if there was any discussion that the represent was they were modifying right that was their repres significant out were well what we can do if so let's last time I checked the notice was on one 23 in January this year okay January 23 so let's so this other certificate is that application come in ACC um yes that has come in that was distributed um to everybody um so that would be works that is it's similar but there's a little bit of a difference if um it does not meet the um certificate of non conforming use then they alternatively ask for conditional use as for okay so that's definitely a little bit that one will definitely conditional use or a d think they don't all well but it's not allowable but it was only changed recent yeah but what I'm getting at is it says uh in the alternative the board May Grant L industrial conditional use approval to applicant given the applicant's use involves the manufacturing of Metal Products using they asking for why is he applying to the board for certificate when that was done less than a year ago it denied oh I'm sorry I haven't changed all of the application yet Deni all all of these are all permit zoning denial zoning denal but the first two makes sense could not have issued it no this one was CAU I think by our Fire Marshall because this guy was doing all kinds of stuff in there like all kinds of stuff specific use they were using not not [Music] allow so yeah I don't want exactly I have but to get to my point of this can't be scheduled for a hearing because no we have to complet that's what I wanted to get me would be completeness on that one we have to we can't do it can't do both things like we did with no and there's not enough time to do um a notice of hearing and because it's a little bit different um I had spoken to Cara about that um and um do completeness see what that so what could technically happen is also put Seaburn on for completeness if they come with some yeah they yeah could do that I'm just trying to get your agenda for the next meeting I doubt if you'll have more information and it's only two weeks away but and I'm not I'm not commenting on him I'm commenting on the checklist that we used for your smile so we should be using the same right but given the items I don't know have to do a little more research asking them to bring them we haven't yet that's why I'm trying to get to the rest of the agenda so we can kind of work backward well then and then I want discussion of the checklist so wordville what I can but it sounds like we're going to because I also have two resolution B it sounds like we want to have a meeting so regardless I think we leave bville I can reach out to Robin and ask her if based upon the plan changes that they're made well B us for June Am I Wrong June 25th for June but whether they need to we don't know if they need to reti let me put it this way there's no statutory set requirement that you could only carry a certain period of time usually a board will just make that decision usually a 200 foot list is good for six months so that's one of the things we kind to think about sometimes and if the last notice was June it's quite possible that a lot of owners could changed in the next six months to Reen notice for that purpose what would require Reen notice would be if the relief that they're changing by way of these revised plans which we haven't seen yet which would require so question we we were told there would be major changes to the plan so it would I'm asking you would that be a criteria for Reen notices yes because then people would need to know that different plans are coming in right okay so talk to them on that basis then excellent so generally I'm hoping that we will have quite a lot of time to do the discussion of the check next meeting plan um resolution compliance I put this on because we're having um it hasn't really been done um and I want to start doing it that's the real simple thing is when we when we vote on these applications and we then create a resolution and we vote on that and that becomes in a record we as a town have not been as good as we should maybe at um checking that those things that we deem need to get done get done so um what I'm looking to do in terms of resolution compliances um I a little bit of work for you I'm afraid we need to kind of pull together what resolutions that we have approved that aren't currently yet built they still in construction or available right because those are the ones that we need to be checking you know I mean like so spice Factory we issued a resolution they haven't completed it but in I I want to create a list of those resolutions so then we can each meeting get an update from whoever is deemed to be responsible for resolution compliance of our professional an update of where they're at well I know that the space Factory has been going through compliance I mean in general I know that um Bob and Beth have have reviewed I mean it really depends on the applicant if they're going to submit plans for compliance H last never did so you know I you know are you looking for those kind of applications because so Beth and I and John hatch and Richard gon started making them so they've never they never did resolution complains and they've been who is that Union hotel that's not that's not quite it they did do resolution compliance they still have outstanding items but okay but to your point it it was in not it's ongoing well okay that's that's more accurate just working on the basis of what doesn't get check doesn't get done then um I just want to put it on our list that we're asking question and how far back would you like to go for Resolutions that are not built I mean you know I don't know I can make make a list I mean it's certainly in all of my annual reports I just don't know how how together all of our all of our all of my annual reports would have all not be that together ones obviously complete we don't need to look at that's well like tidbits is well that's you know one that's still out there but they haven't pulled any Millie sling oh well that's their LLC so yes yeah so things like that so that we're aware some of the people on this board weren't involved in decisions and they don't they're not aware what's out there so I'm just looking to P that together we can do that for next meeting and then we can talk about it a little bit next meting resolution compliance comes in when they when they attempt to do something like tidbits if they want to go to construct there be resolution blly do we have a plan as did did you do everything you supposed to do before you go to the next step but there are sites out there captivity and want is we we act on with conditions and project eyes and you never see anything so one of the questions Bob is that like with cup glass part of their conditions and their resolution if they had to save elements of the peach Basket Factory they had save that cupula they suppos to use it nobody knows what happened like we're that should have been implemented when they H for that they must have obtain a demo right right that when they is the demo that's when somebody should have looked at right so what what I'm what I'm doing with introducing this is I don't want this to happen on my watch is basically what I'm saying is I want to see what we're supposed to be looking at and make sure we're doing it whether we're just asking the question then it can it can stimulate do we need to gooss this person and this person just look into it I'm not suggesting you do this but some boards some boards when they act when they vote on it with conditions they set a clock you have have six months you have nine months if you want to maintain your approval after which your approval dies not suggesting that's a good idea a bad idea I'm just saying that that's some what some boards do right liit comply with the conditions of approval so for instance in order to comply with conditions of approval one of the things you may have to do is to get Revis your site plan and get it signed by the chair and secretary that's not done within six months your approval you need apply for an extension or your approval and you'll have applicants come back for an extension say oh I did this in this but I haven't gotten that yet because it was a de but whatevers another thing well we can't retro you that have to discuss that right and it can be part of our yes we can discuss I think that needs to be an ordinance change as well but we can talk about that I can confirm that I can confir um something else that I have seen that been helpful and I've sorted I'll do it privately is submit when you go in for resolution compliance submit a copy of of the resolution condition blind items and this is what status of each one is so again it's just really organ organizing it the same way like Bob kind of organized checklist makes it much easier to follow so here's the 10 conditions and here's where the eight are and here's the status of the other two that's that's but I'll look at that one because I I've always been a little uneasy about that okay um but I do think that if it's implemented yeah I can see that's a major that's a large change right okay so that's what we're going to start with now it's next thing we start moving um anybody else have anything they want to bring up in this section or want me to move on to B okay can I have a motion to audit the bills they were distributed quite late 6 o' everybody saw them you didn't luckily I went to go print something up and I saw them um yeah so anybody that did see them we have a motion to I have a second on that it'll have to be you no I was d d okay thank you D can we take the roll on that sure um Miss yes yes may carolay Mr C than gone yes H okay yes I'm sorry I Disappeared too my whole screen went blank for about five minutes then I came back yes than you all right we ex session we don't only follow all St I will [Music] check everybody agre on I said see everybody in the gray Dawn k