##VIDEO ID:gQ2T-UUOr2E## how I quiet is all up recing op it I need to stick this to my head that's what I need to do all right call to order the um November 19th Tuesday November 19th uh planning board Zone Board of adjustment meeting of uh lington burough uh and please rise as your aable for the AL to the flag of the United States of America and to the repu for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank you please mayor Harrow andaro are not present oh do this first sorry that's I don't dare to do itly I still much sorry everybody uh this meeting is called pursuant to the provisions of the public meetings act both adequate and electronic notice of this meeting has been provided by way of publication in The Hunton County Democrat and Korea newspapers on about February 1st 2024 and January 1th 2024 in addition notice of the meeting was posted at B of Flemington Municipal bill located at 38 Park Avenue and any handicap accessible entrances there too posted on M on the municipal website provided to the municipal clerk and distributed to all persons if any requesting copies of the same this meeting is being recorded with both audio and video and maybe rebroadcast this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a Judicial hav must be maintained at all times thank you we have I just want toote she should be joining in um Mr Campion here here Mr Hill here Mr dashna here Mr cook here miss whitesman here Mr Sino here miss swingle here Mr EO here Mr sh here miss kazinski here miss mcmanis here miss fararo I'm here and um May Caro Mr clo and mrman are excused I think M mayor car is at the league yes yes I'm so we'll see her next week um okay item one on the agenda is a period for public comments this is for comments about items not on the current agenda and is there anybody in person or online that wishes to make a comment I don't see any hands raised is any hands raised intersection other okay perfect so seeing now we'll move on to item two mayor comments which I assume being as the mayor is not here we will skip to item three Council comments Adrian I have no comments this week all right I'm sorry you're still feeling on thank you for joining us anyway thank you all right um item four then HPC Comics Dennis do you have anything for us today no we have our meeting tomorrow so I don't have anything tonight okay all right thank you all right um professional reports um we're missing two of our professionals anyway I'll just ask the two that are here as a report that we would like to do at this point do we want to do the um Chick-fil-A now or you want to do that later in you you have a I think we have it on the agenda we have it on the agenda sorry I missed that yeah right we added it to the agenda so we'll do that then but nothing other then that will keep all within the agenda items okay perfect so straight on to item six approved of the minutes from the October 30th uh 2024 special meeting any comments or um amendments I had one ien which was in the um penultimate paragraph it mentions that it's okay um it mentions that it would come to the next meeting for discussion but we'll need to change that to for update because discussion means something very specific so I just wanted to make sure that word was changed right very well thank you has anybody any anybody got any other comments on those minutes Noone if not then can I get a motion to approve the minutes please you you guys are gonna have to pull Duty here I'll move oh was that no I was Brian thank you Brian move by Brian second Melissa yep can we take the roll on that please Mr Sino yes Miss swingle yes Mrs yes Mr Campion yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill yes Mr dashna yes your cook upate Miss whitesman yes and M up stain actually that was um M was um well um but miss was the first alternate we have enough um all right okay um okay thank you let's move on to item seven the resolution for 110 Main Street LLC application 20247 we'll have that for the next Mee we'll do that for the next meeting okay right straight on to um item eight compliance um this is a Chick-fil-A Inc block 48 L 7 we already have a resolution on this but this is I you need to fill this in on what this is absolutely so if you take a look I had Council prepare a letter to you and you have it in front of you dated November 11th um and basically what when they went out to the property and um Bob's not here but Beth and Bob and I have discussed this and K around a little bit um when they went out to the property um after the approval to start construction specifically of the canopy um the way I understand it is the canopy as it was approved and designed requires footings and supports and where it was proposed to be located would interfere with the storm water system that's currently on site so their mechanism and and proposal resolve that bless you is basically just to reduce the size of the CATE so that does not require any additional variances um it does not require any additional relief but it is a change from the site plan that was approved so this board is allowed to uh make those changes di Minimus changes to approvals if they constitute field changes and typically field changes while they can be Di minimist and and you I'm going to ask the board to make that particular finding here um I usually like to associate it with something that actually is something that's resulting from what's going on in the field as opposed to um you know an applicant just deciding they want to do something a little bit different that could qualify but clearly here this change is being proposed um because they are realizing once they've gotten out there that they cannot construct exactly what was approved so I feel from a legal perspective that that constitutes a f change um Beth I'm not going to speak for you but Bob agrees as well I think we're all on the same page yeah absolutely abolutely and you know I would say that one of the biggest impacts from that application was the size of the canopy and so this is not mean it's not but the impact of this field change is that it's just reducing the visual impact so I I do think that it's di Minimus but it's actually di Minimus in towards a lesser impact and also I'm presuming it would be in favor based on the fact that if we insisted on the original size it would it would interfere with the storm water system certainly have to absolutely so it's a double double like positive right so what I would ask um is for someone to uh make a motion if they you know feel that that's appropriate um to approve this as a field change with the finding that it is a DI Minimus change from what was previously approved and therefore um can be approved without any amended site plan or or other I'll move it second all right so that was Brian and Jim was Jeff Jeff oh it's Jeff sorry I see in the Brian was the motion Jeff Jeff was Motion in J and we're not we don't have to um quantify the reduction size of um that they they submitted amended well they submitted a site plan that shows the reduced size so that is now what's going to be on file no I wanted specifically to make sure they did that so that when we're going for you know any other permits or so what's on file and a copy has been distributed to the uh construction official right and your asil's going to show that and I will um let him know uh the decision that was made tonight right and then you know for um minutes or or something like that I would also and I will do a very quick resolution just so again we've got something in the file that that shows that I'll outline the case law that specifically allows you to do that as as well as your find and the and the reference to that corre so yeah I want to make sure that's captured so that we're not just reducing it however they feel like we want to know exactly what we're agreeing to all right so we have a motion and a second um is it appropriate for me to ask do I ask ask the board if there have any queries on that before we go or we have a motion we can just vote see if anybody has any questions ABS I always want to make sure I'm not like interfering with the system if anybody um has any queries or comments or anything on that that they want to make before we go for a vote um raise your hand now or forever hold your hand and down I'm not seeing anything give everybody a few seconds to find that button anybody here to no good I'm good is everyone eligible to vote on this um everyone I would say everyone that participated in the original approval what spit bu design but do we know who that everybody does anybody remember if they did not take part in the original one I got it I got it on the end of the resolution I have it we got it don't worry all right we have mayor Carol's not here um miss giin good yeah okay uh oh well we have a motion in seconds let's make sure first so Jeff was not here so Jeff can't make the motion another motion wait I didn't I I thought I was there on that application no you were absent for the resolution I was there for the hearing you were there for the hearing you were absent for the resolution yeah oh well then okay then I'll I'll withdraw the motion sorry yeah let's just let's keep it with whoever voted on the actual resolution is that there um you were there yes okay make the motion thank you I'll second if I was there I think somebody else have um Michael Campion um Hannah and Brian I'll second thank you Hannah so be a quick V my yeah um you okay you want me to do that well let me just um record this [Music] and Mr Hill yes Miss whitesman yes Miss giin yes Mr Campion yes Mr s yes go thank you um all right so and yeah you'll let you'll let the applicant down y thank you all right here we go item nine public hearing National Porton SPS application 20246 block 49 lot 1.01 76 reille Avenue continued from October 8th 2020 24 think I have to be promoted so you can yes and I notice that we've only got the back of your chair on the video um up there we need to do some that's not good enough is it oh you know what I'm saying yeah but when he gets promoted is he one a little bit just so we can but isn't it when he gets promoted the camera there it is that's a public view I myself muted yes yes because the desktop the desk so good evening Steven gronberg attorney in Flemington New Jersey on behalf of the applicant National Pools and Spas this is our application for SE variant relief to allow a signage that had already been placed upon the property by my client um and the property owned by 76 rille Avenue LLC they' uh been renting the property since 2022 um and quite honestly we're here because we think we we recognize that we need sign variance relief but we think that the signage and the type of signage that's been placed there is actually really attractive and is a much better zoning alternative than what uh your ordinance would l limited to be given unique circumstances for this particular piece of property in this storefront um so I do have a witness and uh I would like him to come forward and be sworn I've provided proof of service and publication of the notice appearing and I think we were actually continued to this day previously so I don't believe we marked any exhibits at the last meeting so we'll mark As A1 the application and supporting documentation a two will be the notice and publication of the hearing and PB one will be the board planners dated October 4 2024 thank you and I have Peter Nory nosky from National pools can you spell your last name Peter n a w r o t Z Ki you yeah you could swear at them uh yes for the testimony you're about to give this for is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes than thank you um Mr narasi what's your position with national pools and spots uh I've worked for him for 28 years been a store manager for uh 20 years or so for uh I've been the store manager at the Flemington store since they took it over from water Wizards sorry to interrupt you but we don't have you on the pi on the image there we go thank you I'll get you more in the camera you're more important um so 2022 you began leasing the space uh which used to be occupied by wizard pooling spot correct and I've marked actually have a packet of photographs and we can either mark them individually or just refer to the packet because I have them all stapled that's up to you um it might make it easier for the record if we either want to reference them as separate exhibits or reference the whole group and then do an ABC when we do the whole group and do ABC all right so we'll mark As A3 a group of photographs there's how many five five photographs and then we'll just identify each one as a e great we have these the can get they're all right there um and then I'm thinking abouts at home were these issued ahead of time I have a zip drive with them on right so we can or all we do the old old fashioning technology that up well me too I'm [Music] back it's always challenging and I will try to share my screen and I'm sending my request to share my stream see that great uh sir what what's depicted in A3 which is uh the first photo a yep oh that's the old water wizard what they look like PR taking over for so that's what the space looked like with the signage in place at the time when you took uh tency yes y and they were a similar type of business as you corre and they had signage on the Windows correct yeah yep and they hung stuff inside you can see okay and why don't you describe the space for the board no it's a a retail store we sell pool spies uh pool equipment uh Spas stuff of that nature so we use the entire square footage for hot tubs in the front and computers are up front in the back we have our chemicals and stuff of that nature what type of computers do you have up front oh you're ask computer guy I think Dells or something like that you know your standard counter tops and what are they for uh ringing people up and zooming in finding out with they purchase in the past stuff of that nature how would you describe the the windows in terms of the sunniness of it's super super hot up there and very bright and was that a concern for you when you took space yes y why was that a concern uh computer's overheated almost immediately on moving in so we were having problems so let me show you what I will try to Mark which is the second photo B and he describ what's in that photo so the computers looking from into the store are on the right side so we hung up uh posters that hang from the ceiling to block the windows not the you know best alterative and you can see they're now hiring is right when we moved in and then there was a couple other clings that I actually think Jeff or old water gu may put up right before we got there Steve can you advance you the old picture picture a oh on my screen I have this ear this is what the public is seeing on this one you see see the first one that's the water old try it again how about now there technology so again this is the so under the open sign which you're seeing there are banners that we hung up in the inside to protect the computers and obviously we just started so we have now hiring signs in the window and I believe that the door cles may have been from water Wizards right before we then and the N the water Wizards uh facade sign was changed to na yes let me show [Music] you what is U photograph C and I'm going to do this again because I think I need to good why did do that time do the other personally I prefer the puppet picture I can edit my image using and is that uh photograph that's what's up there now looking in to the left our store hours are on the door uh and yeah we doing ground pools above course that's on the left left hand side of the story tell the board about what that the we're calling it a sign it's actually a decal what it consists of oh it it blocks like I would say 60 to 70% of the sunlight coming into the thing you can still see in when you approach the building um but yeah like you could see inside but looking at the you know you can't say so like when you get close you can see through that and we can you know it just protects in the sun and the equipment getting Sun damaged and stuff of that nature and let me show you what's been marked D of A3 is that the door yeah that's the door so it FS open so we can get hot tubs in and out of there and to the right where the spa are that's where our computers are um the or visual the the left and right door you can definitely see in more get a better view of what's and then let's look at e and that's the the clings I guess you know that would protect the uh the computers over there okay um this is the extent of the signage that um is on site and what you're proposing yeah we're not asking for anything different than what is depicted on A3 in in U photographs CD and correct correct yeah what is up there is what we would like to keep this um the reason reason we were before this board was because you had issued a notice of violation thre right and once we got the notice of violation you retained me to file this application proce the relief correct y um why why do you um what type of um feedback have you gotten from the public with respect to your signning I mean everybody that came in when it came up L that they really did they like I mean even the I think it was a the picture where we were hanging I didn't as the manager didn't like that but I had to protect the computer I thought it was not very professional looking but like just everybody that comes in is really only good feedback they said it looks awesome and people asked us who did it you know stuff of that nature and you know we've got a lot of good feedback on it um you mentioned that if you get close you can actually see in through the beacon you can see in there which is nice you know because we're by Al they got robbed a bunch of times so if anybody ever comes there they can see if there's a problem inside or some with that I you know I'm asking for that but I me you never know but yeah you can see and and we could see how you know if you're standing there Somebody's knocking on the door for some reason um and it helps because we there's a lot of people walking around we have a lot of homeless people back behind us over there one guy likes to pound on the door so we know not to open the door early so comparing what the site looked like when you took uh which is reflected in B right that's when we first looked yes um I assume that you prefer what has been I forgot how constructed I'm kind of picky about the way the story looks back not not really about that butal how you had to do it but you have to do you have to do um is it your effort to try to modernize the the space in order to make it much more attractive to the public yeah I mean we saw some highend items I wanted to look like I sold there it's not put together last minute and you know not thought about so definitely that's all the questions I okay um professionals have any questions for this witness I'm saving my argument but I'm I giving you the testimony well uh let me just ask you know I had included uh some information about the size of the signs in my report and a lot of that was taken from from the application I just is there anything that you disagree with in there don't disagree with the the uh the calculations on the signage is actually probably I don't think your calculations took into to effect the door signage to be quite up front so it's a little bit more so it's actually a little bit more because the door signage includes it and um quite honestly folks this this is one where we recognize that we need a lot of variances but we think that this because of the unique wall of Windows on this space um that this is a much more much more attractive thing than what would be permitted which is a six foot six square foot Sun did you consider installing a shade or blinds on the windows we a bunch of stuff like that yeah but the only problem with the shades is then people like like to look in if they're walking by because we have a you know our neighbor does a lot of business so people have walked by and helps business and they can see it like oh there's hot tubs there and look at them so we yes we considered bunch of different things did it if you use the shades that would they would be they would be shut most of the time up there and it would completely block anybody from a security standpoint from being able to see him oh yeah yeah because they would have I mean even now winter right now it's crazy how writing is up there even with the clings but definitely better and you said you can see through the uh the window signs like the pictures but do you have to be do you have to be like right there I I didn't actually I didn't I would say to be honestly like a couple feet like two three feet when you're approaching it you can see it yeah you can see movement and stuff like that but yeah to really get a visual you probably want to be up like instead a little bit closer but another question okay the only question I would have is um I think we should put some sort of calculation in there I don't know how even if we talk about how it's calculated I think we should put something me toie the Vari yeah yeah absolutely I'm just saying I think we should put that in there the other two I don't I think we're okay with but if we're talking about square footage we can provide that calculation for you actually I think part of the application could probably do it now and just add those on there let me let me just list just for the record what were what the variance really could you use the mic they're not going to be able to hear you yeah I'm sorry folks I was saying let me list the variants for leave and I think Steve is g to add some additional detail yes um so for sign quantity there are two window or decal signs that are permitted but uh there are at least eight proposed and I I don't think that accounts for the individual signs on the door um additionally there's relief needed for the total sign area a total area of six square feet is permitted the applicant had indicated about 142.5 square feet was proposed and I think there is additional uh area that is on the doors that includes at a minimum the business name and hours and some other information um and I I think the total glass area that was covered was 71% uh but I would look to the applicant's attorney to indicate if there's additional area on the door that needs to be accounted for so that that may increase above uh 71% and then lastly for permitted in the coverage six six square feet but the percentage of coverage there is no the applicant had indicated it's 71% but that's not a it's not a compliance item it's just uh additional information 71% of the glass area windows and doors but it's a the regulation is a maximum of six square feed um and then the last item the burrow regulates the purpose and it states that uh signs on Windows and Doors shall name the street the name and the number of types of businesses or some combination there of here we've got signage that goes beyond that and lists products and includes some pictures as well so that's the that's the relief that's being requested but if Mr rberg has some additions to that uh we should have that as well yeah I think the the three doors in the front if you take a look at it that's probably the the middle door is an additional umol I have to do that now what we will do all sale recommend I'll attach as an exhibit these so that we can clearly see what was you know allowed so we've got that as well um and what was approved by the board is it easier to say what isn't covered right now I mean when can I just ask to clarify Beth's comment about the eight are proposed how are we counting the eight are we doing the individual like so picture C we've got one two three four five six seven windows shown and they're all covered yeah and a door but then is that what we're doing in sign window the window signs were the entire window uh the entire window itself and so I it was breaking up the uh there's really no way to differentiate but if we do it that way fix do plus four on the other side so that's 12 six plus 4 which is 10 then the panel of the door and then are the three panels above the door but all covered too we've got the open sign but they're covered by some image of water they're covered too right the only ones aren completely covered are the ones that say the do say National proposal and the on say Spy Service am I correct the rest is covered with the decal let's look at if we look at the first drawing on a a3a or b that shows how many are available so you've got basically like eight B panels you know I I would actually argue that you know that might actually just be one whole sign on the left because even though they're little panels it's all depicting one sign and on the right all one sign too um but that would be my question regarding the variance sought hold on I need car there is no other way to calculate this other than per window that's the way we do our ordinance it doesn't matter because if we Grant this variance theoretically this applicant could choose to paint the windows black because you're certainly but that's why I need to know because when we do this when we when we wrote These ordinances it was well we're in questions so my my question is regardless of how many windows you cover um what is the longevity of the material typically a vinyl transfer like this will not last the life of your lease so do you know how long this will last well I asked the young man when he was putting it up and he says about 10 years but that's not counting fading that's when most people change it out he was like you most people change it about every 10 years or so I'm sure it fades at that point I haven't really noticed any fad it it still looks pretty decent to me I mean I haven't in a pH where I've been unhappy with it correct me if I'm wrong we would agree to a condition that this would be what the board would be approving and that if there was any change to that we would have to come back before the board I don't gu see what we would change anyway really folks I I'm not sure it's critical for the consideration but just in terms of the counting um just to clarify so they have variety of Windows where there's a a a larger window at sort of Midway and then a smaller almost like a clear story window at the top and so I was counting look admittedly I think there are a variety of ways that the number of signs that could be counted but what I did for this for the sake of the record is I look at the picture that was submitted with the application which is a little bit different than what than what's here but I took each column of windows so the clar story plus the the lower larger window there's three on the left and then two clear story windows on either side of the open side and then two columns of Windows to the right of that so that's a total of um of eight Windows there plus they have an additional uh window on the uh or excuse me additional sign on the door as well that was shown it seems like we have some add it is it um isn't really the the driver one always the square be the square footage in this case really yeah because you know it to be honest the all of the photos or all of the signs on the left it's essentially one con contiguous image that's stretched or placed across six individual window panes so I agree the I think the the more relevant relief that the board should consider is the area of the window sign rather than just one sign versus right and now um our ordinance is for a total of six square feet per building yeah per six square feet per window correct right just wanted to clarify that and I and I I do think you know not trying to make it more difficult I do think we you know obviously have to look at both because we do have a window sign requirement um and uh I I would say just to be safe we should look at each window as having a sign even if one sign spans three Windows let's just review and and Grant it even if it's in excess what we have to because you know this the way the way we read this is each window can have a sign so that's you know two window sign so if we say one sign on one window even though it's a sign spanning a number of Windows I think it's safer you know to be conservative I guess even though it may be three not to speak for The Bard but I think their concerns might come differently than than that this that Nuance was saying um okay so for this witness is that all your questions for this so I can ask um board members um with questions for this witness I see Jeff do already has hand up I let go first thanks um so just a couple of questions um my understanding is that National pools is a chain are there there are other stores it's a family-owned business there are four other stores yes do the okay so do the other stores have a similar setup out front uh one of them does two of them do not okay um you don't know yeah I'm not 100% sure but I know one definitely doesn't unsure on one but the other one doesn't if you were picking a location I know that this was a previous um uh business in the same industry but if you were picking a a location would it have been if you were building something from scratch would you have picked a location that would have allowed you to have this kind of signage on the facade of the building um I understand you're trying to provide some shade for computers and equipment in there there but do your other stores have less glazing on the facade so that there's less of an issue of damage to stuff on the inside and I don't know what every store does I could say the Hillsboro store which I managed we had to H hang posters up inside they didn't do this in there and put their position where that building is doesn't get the foot traffic and you know but I can't speak for what the owners would do and wouldn't do there I would prefer every store looks like that I think it looks great but that's just new um question yeah one just one other one other question um actually no it's actually it's a question for for for Beth or car I I'll hold it thanks okay thank you the question I would have is that uh the the graphics they're on the inside of the window on the inside of the store no they're they're on the outside they're on the outside some of the colors go right across the columns as they come down through so trying to see whe that's part of the they put that on the column just to continue the picture from a distance of I'm assuming that's why I all right um online Hannah do you have anything for this sness no okay no I don't thank you though okay Brian no no questions Mike I'm good El we got home I can only see those ones on my screen Adrian I have nothing no questions thank you Don yeah no questions Dennis none from me thanks okay do you want to go you got any questions oh I have a couple questions sorry um you in your testimony you mentioned um the neighbor you mentioned specifically what the neighbor um done does the neighbor have similar decals on their windows I don't I don't believe so his is in the back of the building presumably they have the same issue with sun right their computer's in the bom they use the that's how they chose to deal with okay um then um the main sign that's above your window the the National Pool in Item B the big blue sign um did you go before did you submit that through the signage committee at all for that do you have the application for that that I do not but I assume that they did but I do not the owners okay do we know if we have anything I don't they went through the signage committee they would not be here right because they would have gotten approv get approval for that part can was done six months seven months ear we this didn't we didn't put that up immediately okay so I'm assuming that yes they got okay permits because there's that on the building and we there's one on or something like that in the same footprint as I actually think we yeah just ch get that question on it that's within the same footprint as what was there before the water wher spot yeah I think they changed just the interior panel sure no I'm wondering if it go through the committee then that then gives you an incline of what the requirement are the allowable signage requirements were at that point um the previous one that you referenced and then a similar question in 3A um I presume you're are you propos saying that this is what is there and therefore um it's a similar amount of signage is that what your this the kind of statement you're making with this the comp I think we were just showing how it's just visually nicer now if oh okay all right all right no it wasn't what they what they did it's just a better look for the story right because then my question would be did they have um approval for that we don't have anything formally of approval for that on the record you haven't got any testimony about that then we're just showing what it looked like at the time that they took the space and how this is a much nicer view for this okay um the decal as well as being a decal um kind of to me would you consider it more of an advertising billboard situation it it's not a billboard um in the legal aspect of it um I think it serves a couple of purposes it's it's kind of a unique type of signage because it is the decal um and it it actually it serves the purpose of advertising but it also serves the purpose of providing a a good visual and attraction visual um it's not just words it's a it's a sometimes a picture says a what's it picture paints it's worth a thousand words um if somebody sees a a very attractive scene on a on a on the windows then it it's uh appealing so it it serves both the purpose of providing an aesthetic and uh advertising U but it's not a billboard because a billboard is a promotion of a a separate use on a different piece of property kind I was just seeing it as it's it's a large advertising large because it's 200 square feet um you know I was also something that we don't allowable so yeah I I appreciate that I I would I would urge the board to look at this as as a onsite sign as Bill board because it's not offsite I appreciate the comparison to the size but it really is for Onsite okay thanks for the clarification yeah billboard puts into the whole use issues which is right and that's what I wanted to make sure that we covered the right things in this and not miss something I to think about um okay so you you don't questions I did have one question that just came up so your testimony that on the submission for B which was replace National Pools and Spa on the upper sign the internal internally illuminated sign and beneath that you hung a series of posters I think you call them now hiring open I see some other signs they're just hung from the ceiling basically yes so but but your your testimony was that that is a way that you can combat computer issue which really shouldn't come into play with signage but but you could hang signs from the window in a various form like you did in Item B you could okay thank you thank you I see where you're going with like you could extend that to a more permanent situation as opposed to the it almost like a rrap isn't it right W yeah okay all right so I think that's questions from everybody ready for this witness yeah I was just going to check right so um alen do we have any members of the P are there any members of the public that have questions for this witness on this matter no attendees we've got no attendees stop Shing anybody in the yes public here have comment no question comment no okay have another witness I do not but my feel okay is that um we think that this is a C2 variants that um we um are providing a better zoning alternative by advancing purpose ey which is a a uh an appropriate Visual and aesthetic Improvement to what could be there and that this is a unique way of dealing with that situation and because it's such a unique piece of property and a unique um um Proposal with the Trans semi-transparent signage um we we think IT addresses those concerns that were raised in in M mcmanus' report that there wouldn't be a substantial detriment that public it or substantial impairment to the Zone planning zoning ordinance that this is better um if the board has any questions or concerns about it we'd like the opportunity to talk to you about it um but that's um where I think we fall under a C2 variance okay so now we'll go to professionals comment on that then um so I think I think that the Board needs to uh it's consideration of the C variances I think you need to consider first um for the C2 variance the questions are obviously what purposes mpal land use law uh are Advanced through the application that uh the applicants indicate that they see purpose ey with desirable visual impact of being one of the one of the or perhaps the primary purpose um is part of considering how the purpos M land use law or which of these would be applicable the board should also consider how that how that is uh applicable to this specific piece of property and we want to be able to differentiate uh this site compared to other properties within the district in order to Grant the C2 variance uh as part the positive criteria for the negative criteria the board should consider uh two things whether there's substantial detriment to the public good and I think since we're talking about signage that's really going to relate to how does how does the signage look you know is the is there detriment as a result of the changed appearance is there benefit as oppos as a result of the changed appearance of the building um and also relevant to the public good I would also encourage the board to think about any security issues because that's one of the reasons why uh window signs are typically Limited in Municipal zoning ordinances the second part of the negative criteria is whether there's any substantial detriment to the Zone plan which is really asking is there any substantial detriment to the master plan or the zoning ordinance would the granting of the variance have would it undermine one or both of those documents in a substantial way here because we're talking about something you know pretty limited talk we're talking about sign uh window signs not even all signage but I think that the the relevant consideration for this is first we talk about Aesthetics in the master plan there's uh there's language in there looking to promote uh quality commercial buildings to promote businesses as well but we also uh I would also urge the board to think about the intent of window sign regulations which is Aesthetics and security and so for better or worse I think the issues and the criteria for this application are really uh wrapped together in terms of how what is the impact on the building appearance and what is the impact on building security and the board you consider whether you think that this is a positive this has a positive impact improves the appearance of the building or or negative impact and why and the same thing for security concerns that have been discussed okay thank you can I answer any questions you have any questions for um back on our statement no but I'd make a motion to close the public he hearing so have further discussion okay right have a motion second thank you let's just open it up just for the record the public for any comments sorry I'm sorry I I apologize I don't think there is any but just yeah but yeah just check any um comments um on this application from members of the public online or in person yeah can can you just Define you say Your nameus lemington Community Partnership lemington Improvement District can you define of the nature of a public comment at this point what yeah on this particular application yeah so positive negative I would like to make public com she's GNA need to use the mic get really cozy over here yeah yeah um so having uh and yeah so you can capture yeah you have to make sure you're in the video so we can see your beautiful face hi we'll just you in just in case you give a testimony from the board testimony you're about to get this sport if any shoot the whole Troth nothing about I do so having been a neighbor of um The Pool Store on stangle road for many many years you know know it was uh very uh un un penible to have stacks and Stacks and stacks of chlorine in parking spots and I know that driving around and looking at pool stores I have a pool so I go to them too there's usually an abundance of furniture and you know umbrellas and chairs and sometimes spas and things like that so um my comment is I I would I understand that you're trying to advertise something that's really of a large size that some other towns allow you to put in front of in parking spots and in front of your door and that's really less attractive to me um also you know we're looking at iconic buildings to represent our Circle shopping district so I drove around today and looked at lines of buildings to try to figure out what is what is a building that looks iconic for the highway and basically it's just like your building storefront where it's very cookie cutter you know a peaked roof next to a line then maybe a square then you know so I think with the highway retail that we have there are very few really iconic buildings and I can understand the need or the desire to want to have more more of an image um to convey to the public I personally because I come around that way and sit at TR trying to make a right or left look at your building and think it looks brighter and a little more attractive and your neighbor happens to have you know a hundred powerport things in front of their door so I personally would rather have more signage and less um stuff I don't know if that was if that is a consideration of yours that you know you can also put a 100 out of round deck chairs and and a spa so I prefer it on the window than I do uh in front of the door that's my comment thank you thank you all right so um see do you have anything else want to say no I think the board can recognize like Mr cook said that they could be painted black or you know Shades could be put up that completely block the Sun but then that blocks the safety concern and this is a unique way of addressing safety concerns by still having it semi-transparent to be able to look into while at the same time making something as the witness just said that's attractive that actually brings people into Flemington to develop those com the Commerce that you want to do as part of your master plan so I I think we would agree to a condition that we discussed that this would be what you would approve and if we deviate from that at all we would have to come back board question well let oh no I just want um she discussion was the fact that there are stores nearby that have got clutter all over the front of the store it appears as that you're not planning on putting anything in front of the store you're not going to store materials outside well I put I to be honest with you I roll a step out every morning and we have a blowup turkey now and then next month I have a blow up Santa Claus that's that's really all I put out front Okay now I don't like a whole lot of stuff anyway so what we see is what we get yes all right now I'll make the motion to close the public thank you I have a second for that please second okay we take the RO on closing the public hand Mr cook yes Mr Hill yes M farar yes yes M chion yes yes Mr Dasha yes Miss Whitman yes Mr simino yes and Miss yes thank you all right now the board we can do our question and considerations motion a second we can motion or discussion first it doesn't matter right so before I mean I'd like to comment since uh I've been on the sign Review Committee for um a decade and um so when we wrote this ordinance we wrote it to avoid what this applicant is showing in Item B with a bunch of signs all over the place right so in Item B where they have the now hiring posters there is no ordinance that governs that so an applicant can choose to hang any amount of posters want in their Windows because it's not a sign it's something hanging from the ceiling it's a little bit of a it's a little bit of a loophole but you know we cover go signage which is permanent signage a fix to a building so and we wrote it because in Item B or or document B for the board to reference you know hanging now hiring signs and other posters and black boards or whatever they want to hang or buckets of chlorine that could be the way this that this applicant um combats their issue of both sunlight and trying to clean up I put that in air quotes their storefront when you think of our Highway retail um or C Circle you know this the circle area covering Windows is much more common than not covering windows and I know we don't set precedence by any decision that we make but off the top of my head I can count seven that have completely covered their Windows um and you wouldn't recognize them I'm not going to say who they are but they're out there they're out there with sometimes it's just a gray covering and it looks very natural and other times it's um just imagery so I think for this applicant to come in front who is doing the right thing by saying hey guys I want to do something that is somewhat radical I want to use 71% I want to cover 100% of my windows by coming in they're asking us for our opinion on instead of hanging a plethora of signs and posters and buckets of Florine can I just make this cleaner I don't think there's any doubt when you drive by I drove by this looking at this side of the road um it's very clean this specific building is very clean you know exactly what it is and it's Highway retail we don't set preceden by decisions that we make every applicant is different um I would not agree with this on Main Street we also have buildings on Main Street that have covered 100% of their windows but again looking at this it's not foot traffic you can still see in at night by the way it you can tell the store is open it's illuminated because it is translucent it's that bus wrap with the little holes in it so while we were adamant when we wrote the ordinance to not cover your windows so when people walk by they can see in nobody's walking by I know they said they have people walk you don't walk by this location this is a driveby location s similar to other things on the circle which shall remain nameless that have covered their Windows um so again I don't necessarily like it for every building in town I don't like it on Main Street where we have foot traffic but based on the fact that we have not heard from any of their other neighbors that have done this already and have have done this for probably 10 years now um and you know I think it's it's an interesting concept it is it is big bold it may have others come out to say I want to get approval for my windows but I think that's when you have to look at it that's why I was really saying it needs to look like this because if they stop doing above ground pools and they scrape that off and now put whatever the next thing is they would have to come back to us so that's why I wanted to make sure that this was exactly what we were going to see every day when we drive by and if inground pools fall out of fashion they don't scrape it off and say we sell barbecues now because that could get messy similar to how you know I I always call these signs the like shop break signs not that we have them at shop break but you know the big giant signs that say grap 79 cents that's a poster and they can plaster them across their Windows because it's a poster our ordinances don't cover posters but they look Messier our ordinances cover signage which is intended to look cleaner so I was just trying to get background to the board because if you're reading our ordinance it clearly says don't do this um so it clearly says don't do this it clearly said that's and we only reviewed that signage ordinance a few years ago because I remember sitting doing the work we did hours of work and nobody ever raised that we should allow this nobody we never raised it was never discussed to cover it completely right and it's you call it clean it's full of pictures it's the it's it's not clean clean and I I know no I'm I hear what you say I'm just I'm concerned because we didn't think we didn't nobody mentioned doing this because this was not what what we intended even in this Zone it's not like there was discussion to say well in this Zone we should allow this because it's a different kind of field not Main Street that's we do the the the ordinance allows for different um situations in different location in our different zones and we never considered this never considered allowing this no we typically have looked at them from again nothing sets precedence but um even when we had uh raid who wanted to cover the windows we allow them to cover the window doesn't set presence ra is no longer there but um you know be to be able to cover some of their windows and to make it look cleaner versus what it could look like which is fully within our ordinance to do what item what page B is Page B they can put now hiring signs they can H 10 of them because the poster from the window so that's where I struggle to say but then so you because you feel they can do that and that's worse you want to let them do something that we expressly prohibit okay um Jeff I see your hand up over there why you been like crazy no thank you um so I hear everything Todd just said um but I have a real problem I really do and let me you know like and I've been in the store like you know I I know the store I know the I think we've all been down that block on raville you know number of times um this property is not unique in the HR in fact this property is pretty vanilla cookie cutter of a highway retail kind of structure and so I I I I have I don't know if we're meeting the positive criteria uh first and foremost of of granting relief I I think there's a there's a problem with with with that the way that Beth laid it out I think that the security issues are real um because we we know that the property next door has had a n and and a not not just the property next door but a property not too far away has had issues of theft um you know of of of of device stuff that's left outside I know that the rear of this property does have to have certain materials outside um you know bag you know big things of saying hand and and you know other stuff that's kind of loading through that back door that's not necessarily seen from the street Todd's correct that this is not a vehic this is not is a more of a vehicular um approach to it for sure um but you know the Aesthetics it's I you know we're we're basically saying we can wrap a building 70 odd percent of the windows with advertisement I mean that's what this is it's not it's not talking about um uh um you know sale on grapes right but nor is it saying we're hiring but like I don't think anyone has any doubt of what products are being sold at this store right you know it it's it that's not a it's we're talking about a permanent WP that is intended to block out light it is very much not in the you know I certainly doesn't belong in Main Street but like if we're trying to make it a visual distinction even in the highway retail District between stores that are in the burrow and stores that are in the township where anything goes in terms of signage um and we're trying to distinguish that this is the burrow and this and where as opposed to what's not in the burrow we went through Great Lengths when the shops of Flemington came in about signage and how things Rec covered we have you know I I'm I'm really reluctant to to say that the burdens have been met here in terms of you know satisfying the negative criteria around Aesthetics and security um and I'm also really concerned that we have not met the burden of saying that the particular nature of this property in the HR District as Beth said would necessitate the relief that's being sought like this is just a regular old there's nothing about this Pro there's nothing about the size of the lot there's nothing about the structure of the building there's not there's nothing about this box with glass that is distinguishing it from any number of other buildings in the HR zone right it's not like there's any s of unique characteristics that have been provided testimony on that would make me feel like we've got a grant relief here um I was asking questions around the kind of nature of how pool shops operate um just to try to to get something that would give me something here I I'm I've got real concerns about granting relief here even in the highway retail um District about we're going to end up going down a very quick Road of visual clutter and wrapping everything all the time everywhere um in a way that I think aesthetically doesn't comport with what we the the Aesthetics that we've seen in other places in the burough especially since there are testimonies that it's going to stay the same for 10 years possibly like think about advertisements that have changed over time time the the I can't imag you know I I imagine in five years I was looking at this and saying it just looks dated you know and I just I I have a lot of concerns so that that's just that's my that's my piece yeah Jeff I just want I'd written down here um when Beth was talking that it's it ties into the the detriment to public gut the detriment to the public good aspect that you said we have to consider right Jeff with a look and security it ties into both of those effectively again I'm not I'm not you know I just I understand what they're trying to do and I agree that that it looks better in some ways now than it had before um that was a conforming sign as opposed to non or non conforming with non signs as opposed to I just this is this is for me there's not been testimony to suggest that this is there is something particular about the nature of the business or the peculiarity of the property um angle of the sun doesn't do it for me I'm sorry and computers needing shade I'm sorry that's not adequate to go from six feet to 170 square feet of signage yeah the there's um it's not like it's the only solution to the problem that they were having that was what was going through my mind they can there are alternate ways to solve the issues they could choose to paint the windows black they could CH that is not that or they could choose to put blinds up or they could choose the location of things inside there are there are multiple ways to resolve the issues that they've used as their personal detriment which does that over overarch our detriment to the public good that we're supposed to consider also that's what I'm trying to wrestle with right now you also could have very large posters hanging behind the glass because our ordinances don't cover posters behind the glass not a fix to the glass but hanging behind so you could choose to have large imagery on some kind of curtain if you will um well yeah it's not our job to tell them things that are unrelated to this signage request and this variance for signage specifically um to keep our thought to the signage request um okay um I want to throw anybody else online have comment I don't see oh yes I do I do um so Todd mentioned it I just want Cara to just confirm that if we approve this it's not setting a precedent every application must be reviewed on its own Merit um and the conditions and the circumstances and the evidence presented in connection with this application is what the board is making its decision on um Can another applicant come and try and liken themselves to this applicant yes um but every single decision this board makes is specific to the application the applicant the property and the presentation to the board okay thank you um I I agree with a lot of what Todd said I think that you know some of the options they could have done would have looked a lot worse um I think it looks attractive and if if it was approved and they had to come back for any change I think that's that's acceptable to me that they'd have to come back um but some of the other options they could do um and also the sun I do factor that in but some of the options they could do would look a lot worse and they'd be allowed that's my input thanks Hannah you have anything um I agree with both what Dennis and Todd have been saying but I also kind of hear um what you know what Karen and um I'm sorry I'm blinking out right now I need more coffee and Jeffrey are saying um and that the aesthetic is potentially concerning but I do agree that the application of what like the actual science what what is being applied is a lot cleaner than versus you know having the interior your posters things like that I do think it's it is cleaner um it's just the concern of like the Aesthetics and the longevity of the Aesthetics again like you know in five years are we going to look at this and be oh is this stated but at the same time I think you know the other options aren't necessarily better potentially um but yeah that's that's my thought process at this point okay thanks Hannah um I'm going to cross my list I see here Don do you have anything no I don't at this time okay thank you Melissa there I am sorry um I hear what everybody's saying you know verse size verse Aesthetics verse other options and I think you know the fact that this is its own application on its own Merit it's not setting a precedent is something to keep in mind other than that I don't have any comments okay thanks Brian uh no issues as long as you know no precedent is set you know I'm happy to you know say okay to it Mike ready to vote all right okay he's ready to vote I'm just wanted to ask everybody mik um Adrian you got anything no thank you I'm fine and I've I I I think this my my greatest concern is really the security issues around that site that would be my my only concern and that's for the gentleman sitting there more than anyone else thank you okay thanks Jim you did you say well I I think I'm trying to look at it kind of the way Todd is I mean you look at what's there now you look at the windows that are there now and you got 32 different types of signs that are in the window that are lot makes it look like a mess well that's not the only option though I real I'm say all right but can you make them change them into something you like no well yes we we have we can consider for the public good aesthetic the look no I'm just yeah what I'm saying is is that uh uh the the idea the idea of the um covering of the windows CHS a modernization ability to think of something that would actually continue to excuse me um advertise and it doesn't take up space in the front doesn't take up space in the back uh it's it's a tough one because the way the windows are right now and what they could do or could do over the next five years to try to uh upgrade it um it's going to be difficult for them from what I can see so um I I'm like a look at what they want to do and as long as it doesn't become precedent for anything else in the areas we indicated okay yeah thanks you know I can just just just to to be clear because we did write these ordinances and Karen is absolutely right like we really did consider this at the time and we said yeah we don't like it we don't like when people cover the windows we just don't like it and it's been sneaking in especially in Highway retail um I'll only speak within the burrow because like Jeff said in bar Township um some some of the some of the signs are 100% covered on their Windows you don't even realize that they Windows because they're all like either white or black um and and I I I just want to go on record I don't like it per se in in aggregate but I think that from a highway retail when I drove by this to look at it before the application thought H you use the word modern Jim I I could go I could get there that it's it's more modern than hanging posters in the window um but what I do like is the process of talking through it and the merits of each business because we do have businesses out there that have done exactly like this and they've been like that for years so maybe our building inspector will get around or his own officer will get around and start flagging them for us so we could have the same discussion and say it works here it doesn't work there doesn't work on Main Street does work on Highway and I think it's that exchange that I tend to favor when an applicant comes in and says I have an issue I need your approval can you help me out here so I just want to to I didn't want to and I get what you're saying you're you're you're right in terms of the they allow to say I have an issue and this is unique this is why I need to do this this is unique this is the point that V made that we have to consider that that this is a unique site to do that but is it that unique is it is this is this the unique solution to the problem that we've expressly said we didn't want to use that's my query that's what's going through my mind that we and I understand what you're saying when you say that we can look at each case in merits but one thing I consider when if we consider that option is that then people right now our sign ordinance is really clear and they didn't come before us to they didn't come before us for an application for these signs these were this was found to be incorrect so they didn't go through our process right um it was found by our off our construction officer officer that was it was non-compliant if yes everybody's allowed to come and say that they have a specific variance request but isn't it cleaner to tell everybody this is what this is our regulations and this is what we want and this is what you will go by if we say that um if we allow variant we have to be really careful I think with the variance um that Beth told us we have to consider to make sure that this truly meets those requirements in order [Music] to accept it who give the Vance you know what I'm saying acceptance bless you the acceptance of that public good and also the best point and the acceptance to our Zone plan effectively this is this is our ordinance um do we want to give I know every case can go on its Merit but we've certainly used this before to deny people um less signage than this less percentage increase over the six square feet so going from two six square feet to 200 square feet that's it's not a little increase right it's a massive variance request to my mind as well that's that's my that's my thought on it um Hannah has another comment now my thought on this is that would we be more ad meable if it would was if the images shown on it were less product and advertisement and more like in your own personal realm appeasing would that affect your our decision- making in that either too that's just kind of my thinking as well in this right you mean it's something a bit more like almost look less yeah if if that were the situation like would we be more meable to it and that like if it was less of like that that product placement each of the board members can think on that whether they would be or would not um I know for me the driving factor is the the this the sheer amount that it covers rather than what it looks like it's that it looks like that because it's covering the whole thing that's my personal but what other both members think I don't know but that is a reasonable thought to be having Hannah and considering for sure all right I think well I throw one more thing in there what if you what if you what if they were to take what they're proposing right now and just make it on the inside rather than the outside you mean by virtue of what to by The Virtue I mean if they if in fact if we the window though you mean it would still cover the window but apply inside it would be inside you can't apply it to the window you wouldn't apply it to the window it have to be something that was you know like hanging on a sheet or something like that yeah would it be would it would we still have to approve it if it was hang if they used a curtain behind we wouldn't be able to comment on that either that's their choice of the curtain behind yeah I'm turn it out there because that is an alternative from doing it outside right that is somewhat of a I call it a loophole but at the same time it is not it's that has not been done in in the burough has been done in many other municipalities um that I've seen before from a perspective but within the buau this seems to be the um the preferred methodology the outside yeah and I think and again yeah you know Beauty's in the eye of the beholder right so um driveby location um I I yeah it's a tough It's and for me as well the fact that the neighbor hasn't needed to do this for the same exact issues claim for the hardship that they claim in terms of the Heat and I'm saying that's a factor to me also from the from the test they have their computer place close to the window exactly that's what I mean is giving it because it's Unique to this location it's not it's the same situation next door and they haven't had to choose this saying they didn't add for the variance of this that's actually to um okay well if anybody is anybody else I'll just call us call for com questions and comments then or discussion from the board no do we we do we have a motion we don't have a motion on the table so we need a motion to either Grant the variance or not Grant the variance so somebody needs to decide would be the variances just just to clarify would be the variances if identifi um based upon the exhibits that were submitted um should there be a motion to approve the application um some of the conditions that I'm hearing that the applicants agreed to uh are to attach the photographs as an exhibit this to be exactly what is being approved in any deviations whatsoever would go back to the board um again with the understanding that they could put this on the inside if they did not constitute signage um I did have here to sub evidence of the sign permit for the wall sign or some sort of information I'm sure that that did go through the proper procedure but to kind of close the loophole on that um and painting of the windows they could do as well I had that as a condition no painting but that's something that they could certainly do um so those are really only two conditions we a condition no when you say when you say paint the windows I I I'm should rephrase you could tint the windows we do not have an you know there is no ordinance against tinting windows no because we've had applicants come in and ask to take the tinting off the windows it's like each each case is so unique yes I was I was looking at that condition but you know there there by the ordinance yeah I mean because I'm not sure I'm that's a possibility I think the oldfashioned days of painting the Windows like some folks do on Main Street 100% of the windows that again that is just a different version of a a digital graphic that goes on the window when somebody paints it from the inside or the outside um if if there's an improving resolution I would also ask that we just get an updated uh area from Mr sounds like my uh memo had overlooked some of the window or the door signage um I appreciate that we're going to attach the pictures too but if we can get just a little closer to the number so they would be based upon these yeah it's less a condition I I'll defer to you but I don't know whether it's a condition or just information we would need from theant right I think that's a good idea okay so um I need somebody move second that place then what motion the motion would be as they're asking for conditions corre so so a yes vote would be to approve a no vote would be to not Grant the variant Jim I have a motion me a second I'll second Melissa Melissa thank you all right can we um hold a rooll on that vote then please name yes um Mr Hill yes Miss swingle yes is foro yes yes Miss gin no Mr dashna no Mr cook yes Miss whitesman yes Mr Sino yes very good thank you all very much okay here we will work on the resolution for a later date and let you know that when you're going to get for the next it's going to be a little while next year see expect that before Thanksgiving wishing everybody a very Happy Thanksgiving you won't be back then I don't think so right yes AR you in next week no maybe not just assume you're here wait a minute wait a minute are you doing no you're not doing the Democratic committee no that's right so we won't see you next week Happy Thanksgiving that's Happy thanks all right thanks thank you all right so let's move on to um item 10 and this is regarding the zoning ordinance but zoning or oh my gosh did I I don't know what I'm saying um ordinance for the DB and db2 districts and I did I changed the agenda to say update rather than discussion for a very specific reason right yes so that's why if there's any confusion um because we had previously said that we didn't need further discussion as a board on it um but I are you yeah Beth Beth is gonna give us an update on what's been happening in the background which is rather L um so just uh this is about the orance that came before the planning board I didn't pull the date but it's was probably a month ago where we talked about the draft ordinance and it was it was um sorry it was amending permitted uses for the DB one or the regular DB and the db2 district and uh the board reviewed the Ordinance one of your I think I think the most significant comment was you wanted to see Services be of permitted use along the first floor for um for the DB one district for the Main Street District essentially and so that that change has been made in addition to the conversation I had with the board I've also been having conversations with various folks of course the ordinance subcommittee um as well as the FCP as well as the zoning officer to basically gather some input about the ordinance and while doing so uh one of the things that's happened is there are a variety of other I would say much more minor amendments that I anticipate going into a draft ordinance after speaking with uh with zoning officer and the FCP and just understanding how uh how the zoning ordinance is being interpreted it became clear that there were a handful of tweaks that could be made to the ordinance that would basically uh make the make it easier for the zoning officer to do his job and for him to be able to make interpretations consistent with the intent of the ordinance and I say it that way because what we can't do we as a board me as a planner or even the council can't tell the zoning officer Thou shalt interpret the ordinance this way this is what that means that is his job but what we can do is hear how he's interpreting the ordinance as as well as other uh other things that he thinks would be helpful and we can amend the ordinance to to ensure that his interpretation is consistent with the intent of the ordinance and so that's that's a handful of of additional amendments to uh for example um uh permitted uses that I anticipate happening uh not amendments to permitted uses but amendments to uses uh use definitions for permitted uses in the ORD so for example uh amendment to a medical office definition not where Medical Offices is permitted necessarily and there are a couple other uh uh items that I'm looking at for uh expanding activities associated with accessory uses but not new uses or structures necessarily I think it's really about uh adding explicit language to the ordinance that had been for many years thought to be assumed or had been interpreted So based on your previous zoning officer but we've got a change of staff and I think that along with uh ideas for uh amending permitted uses just necessitates updating the ordinance to uh to make sure that it's uh being used best way possible consistent with the council and the and the planning board's uh interpretations so um so that's a sort of a long-winded way of saying that the ordinance continues to be in development I continue to be meeting with the subcommittee I I don't think I'm going to need another meeting necessarily with the zoning officer but meeting with the FCP and then uh the likelihood is that there will be an ordinance prepared this week introduced on Monday night at the council meeting assuming we can uh sort of get there and and gather all comments and then it would come back to planning board for your typical master plan consistency review any other comments you might have and then we go back to council obviously for public hearing and a vote to determine if we're going to adopt the or so you're trying to make it easier for the zoning officer not to have to interpret what he thinks the ordinance means well I don't I don't quite want to say it that way because you know he's always going to have to interpret the ordinance but you know he he has his own contexts and his own experience and he's interpreting the ordinance in ways that that are not illegitimate but are just a little bit anticip unanticipated and so it's it's very easy for us to add some tweaks to how uses are defined to make sure that we're all seeing it in the same way and one one of the things and correct me if I'm wrong here I don't know what this step but since one of the things we're doing is getting rid of the SIC andic codes I think for good reasons or we understand why we're doing that but while it helps in some respects it causes other issues because everything is not as black and white yeah AB doing that and allowing the flexibility but yet still making it clear as to exactly what it is that's intended to be done I think is important we're going to do it we want to do it right yeah and and Jim to your point also the wording is reflecting what we're hearing from the FCP and businesses of what modern needs are right so allowing for those more updated needs of uses of their property and which what you we we've been really careful to ask them what things are coming that are currently maybe not covered by our current ordinance and and that this would cover is that fair enough to say without being to specific is just reducing the work for the board well it is and that's and that is that is a consideration jokeing this side it's not just for the board it means that applicants we should we see less people having to come to us for interpretations the idea is that the the ordinances would cover all most of the things that are coming up that with the modern uh tenants are requiring um and we should see less of that because also be you can speak to part of the Outreach as being to make sure that people will understand that they can this is a long-term strategy the the interpret only in interpretations we should have an immediate effect but the long-term strategy in terms of um what's allowed will gradually come in it's not going to be overnight the exist the non-conforming you certificate we've been at pains to explain um and any other aspects of that we need to go over the well we we raised that you raised that in the discussion part the board understood those I think but just to clarify again that that publicly that that has is being done is to explain that to people that will be affected by this who understand the implications or the ramifications of the yeah absolutely I'm actually meeting FCP on Monday uh well a meeting with uh business owners that would like to attend a meeting with a B planner or as organized and advertised by the FCP carara does a does a change of ownership trigger anything for this for for a pre-existing non-conforming use well that's a loaded question well well we have said before things like well if you have a don't want to site anything specific a lawyer a doctor a dentist office okay randomly chose those um as long as somebody else comes in and Doctor matches doctor dentist matches dentist lawyer matches lawyer you're fine no matter who owns the building you're always fine lawyer to lawyer dentist to dentist yes it's when somebody sells the building because now anytime we put a restriction on a deed I I that's where I'm you're I don't think the ownership of the building matters it's the use it's the use right right so so because that has come up again I just want to know if you were receiving this feedback um on you know the the property ownership and the devaluation of property with restrictions and so we're just trying to think of how that if if you could work through that but property ownership doesn't trigger it's the um years and and the other question I wanted to ask just from an update perspective when we first started talking about this I believe the mayor even brought up something like buildings that were more conducive and it's a sort of a squishy word I guess conducive but so when you have a building that is not conducive to retail um that is like H is there anything that could be done from a you know whether it's form based zoning I I don't really know what what I'm what I'm asking but I walk down all DB1 db2 District looked at every single building and said okay I'm a retailer would I go into that building as a retailer for example so I don't know if I'm not even sure the question I'm asking other than the fact that if you could take that into consideration as you're putting the ordinance together because that seems to be um a question that comes up I don't so I I think you're I think the the nature of the question is can we identify permitted uses based upon the building type or the building design essentially right last I said it's a little squishy remember the mayor originally said well some things have been in office forever some have been you know um and again I'm just trying to think of non retail uses uh the funeral I'm just picking it I was trying to go down the post office I'm just trying to think of non retail uses um well before before Beth answers that if I can just add because this is a thing that as we had discussions with the FCP the council members and it's my personal bugp is people keep calling it retail only and it's not there's a lot more than just retail that's allowed so it I think it's scaring people when we say this is retail only as a l it's not just retail there's there's retail sales there's Retail Services there's right there remind me we've gone through iterations there's so many things that are allowed I guess it's it's it's and we've we've asked the FCP to explain to what what is coming in that we need to make sure is covered under this this is what what what are people looking to bring into flankton we want to make sure that that's not excluded and we've sure that right Beth the Beth description that's a that's a great point because I am using my Insider knowledge of the word retail as our or sites retail knowing that there's a plethora of things that you can choose for retail um and within the retail umbrella Services we spoke of a great lens things um yeah so it's things like Retail Services retail sales restaurants um some indoor Recreation uh theaters as well as uh breweries for a couple examples I'm just trying to make the point that there's options within that like if they'll building is not good for this particular part it could be good for one of the others right or something and also we've got the non-conforming use right where if they currently have a tenant then they have that non that choice to do that and and retain that and does anything uh the other thing just to consider Beth from an update perspective and as you're going through and trying to work in all the different points of view from an American Disabilities Act from an 88 perspective does an office require I do not know this answer I and I apologize because I know I could probably Google it but you'll know the answer does does an office use require different ADA compliance than a retail space not that I'm aware of um I mean they they all need to be able to have like an accessible entryway into the building you've got to be able to serve bathrooms for for your customers You' got to be able to provide ada8 parking to the extent that's applicable you know some of the sites parking um but no I don't think there's a difference so the old houses that we have on on Main Street but ju with just a set of steps I I I'm not sure um where that fits in in converting that to even a restaurant for example right when we see a site plan we're like hey how you going to get customers and you need to build a ramp you we've seen that before um it's be a building C Construction because if it's open to the public that's when the Ada is going to kick in but by the same token you know we've dealt with this before with strictly site plan related issues you know um couple are coming to mind off the top of my head but you know are you required to create access if you're not really changing the building itself um you know I think that's it's going to fall within building or related issue but certainly something that will need to be considered and addressed by an applicant in that type of situation got it which which ever yeah all right oh Adrian as a hand race did you have something for um yes so one of the things that's come up I'm so sorry you guys is the stock the number of office locations in DB1 and db2 and which ones of those have been empty and for how long and I'm have I'm struggling with the idea of we're keeping things strictly for office and we're hearing it's got to be office and we they've been empty offices for too long for me to believe that that's you know is there really a market for strictly offices some of these buildings um that said um I am not opposed and I know this came up very briefly in one of our our subc commmittee meetings to having a um if you have been an attorney and going to a uh you would like to be now have that rent that out as let's say a tax preparation service it's not ideal it's not the vision or how I Envision Main Street but it's not strictly about me and what are the possibilities of sunsetting those I'm not saying I don't know can we do that and we say for if we were to go down a path and carot maybe for you okay we're going to we're going to flex to the building owners who've had empty offices on Main Street at level for several years and but we're going to give you two years to fill those but we this sunsets we I don't know what the possibilities are of that but I it's more to express my frustration that there's so much more than retail that is available we can have an arcade we can have a billiard parlor it's not just retail um and I don't know how we get past that when I still see so many empty buildings when I walk down Main Street that are offices that's all yeah and I really don't know the answer to very good question um I could certainly look into that I don't know be just talking necessarily a quote unquote sunset provision um the abandonment of pre-existing non-conforming uses kind of serves to do that in a way but that is a legal standard that needs to be met and there's intent that needs to be proven on the part of a property owner where that comes into place to specifically intend to abandon that use and that does not mean that just no one's been there for a year if they consistently Market it for office and it's you know in that respect so I don't know if we're getting more into a discussion of this as opposed to an update I I want to make sure if anybody's listening if anybody is in public that that kind of disin disincentive essentially isn't it to change to just to to change from what you are that's not being proposed right now that's not in right and that would be something that council issue to number one we're trying to we've suggested incentives like they have the tax abatement program that the mayor mentioned if any money they spend to change can be there's a tax thing they can do and incentives our disincentives are for the council level not for us to consider right that the in terms of in in implementation yeah I I that's something for them to consider that's not part of the boin right now and I was just trying to think of the separation of powers right because hearing Adrian say that I'm thinking oh my goodness like what if a different path it's more of a frustration as that we are we are um the buildings have been empty for years that's not my ideal I'd like to see a bilard parl there's so many things that could be there and it seems that we're we're people as Karen has stated they hear it's got to be a clothing store or whatever and it doesn't have to be there's so by getting rid of these codes we're opening so much up I just many opportunities from a planning perspective we have our role right here's the ordinances this is what works here's here's the codes here's the blah BL but from an ordinance for for um elected officials to then take our words and say but could you consider consider this it's a fabulous like like exchange between Council and planning board so and it's certainly starting the discussion what where what is the vision how do we Implement that Vision on we're using different things incentives you well incentives sun setting so I think there's Panic on the streets that um are I haven't been able to rent my building in two years and now it's going to take me another five you that's the and that's to assuage those fears as much as anything um but they're very real they're real fears I'm not denying them but it's um something that can be discussed um but certainly there's option for that update of where it's at so that you know why but it will be coming before us um hopefully for and and um and certainly I want to thank Beth for all her work because with all the input that she's been putting into this uh for everybody she's really been listening to everybody's input and crafting language to make sure that those wishes are reflected she mentioned that those tweaks that the FCP had asked for for certain things but those conditional uses and accessory uses they might be tweaks to our ordinance but I think they're going to make a massive difference for the tenants that we were he about yeah some of the some of the changes are three or or eight words to a certain section or definition but it's the change is going to be well beyond really positive yeah and and part of the Outreach to the FC they've agreed to um ongoing from this would be more detailed um inventory of the buildings and which uh ex where where focal points can be for help for different businesses like which one's more likely to be able to be moved and changed if they want and what what how what support how what support that could look like right um and that's certainly something on goinging that will probably come out Monday's discussion as well that I'm sure um okay thanks for the update you keep your eyes peeled um keep that moving all right so let's go on now this this is one we've been kicking down the can isn't it there kicking down the road um 11 a public hearing resolution for 20246 for the master plan historic district element now this is separate from the map I want to make people clear right this is not the map B is item 12 this is where our master plan might need to be changed for the historic district element we we left this so in case things came back from Cil is that right yeah so one of the I mean there were a couple things but uh there was one change that was anticipated to be made on the map and that was a garage for uh nine nine New York Avenue yes yeah um so we the board had decided let's not take action now knowing that that change Mak come and and frankly maybe other changes will come too from uh from the council and now fast forward to this evening we know that the garage change has been made to n New York Avenue in fact the element the updated element that I had uh that I had sent I was kind enough to distribute a little while ago includes that one change although the rest of the element is entirely the same and we know that the council has uh it is proceeding with the map as proposed with that one change as well and so now we have the potential of having a historic preservation element match the historic preservation map which is great because the map is also included in the element and that is exactly how it's supposed to work right so then this item 11 how do how did we do that and we're having a public hearing about this right now going we already did we we um and all we did was we held the vote to see if there was anything else that we need do oh so we're piggy back in on the public we did for the map okay right yes so really um we need a motion in a second to adopt in this case it's resolution 20246 um and unless there's any other comments um we've got the comments in there which Rel again any other than what that identified which has been reflected in the revised Master uh uh preservation element of the master plan um need a motion a second second all right can we um have the vote yes please roll call on the vote thank you uh Mr Hill yes Miss swingle yes Miss barara yes cion yes gin yes Mr Dash yes yes m m Whitman sorry yes Mr Sino yes so the resolution will follow for that yes I that V some resolutions to be written um all right so then item 12 is the ordinance 24 23 consistency review for amending the historic district district M I know and then put glasses on the historic district map Zone boundary that was introduced 10 1524 um a council presume that's that date right and the second reading was 11 it's sched is scheduled for 1125 24 this would just be as Beth indicated um for consistency with our master plan our master plan specifically the historic element has now been amended pursuing to the vote that you just did um to reflect these changes um so I'll let you any consistency issues but I think I think given the adoption that just occurred 20 seconds ago it's entirely consistent so we we we doing consistency with the change that we just made yeah okay all right so can I have a motion for that all motion secondate all right can we have the roll call for the word that please I and swingle Yes actually Mr sh is an alternate gu can decide not to vote they I'll not vote heow to people to not vote I'll alter it if that okay yeah um all right let me set that them again miss swingle yes yes bisaro yes Campion yes yes yes Miss Whitman yes yes and if we're like to I just like to say I would have voted yes just just so it's you know just in case there's any question in the future um all right thank you everybody so oh gosh here we go we already got to this yes um chair items item 13 next meeting is next Tuesday um have a lot of next week it's going to be a long one I think right because we've got two public hearings next week so read your papers um we have the Democratic committee and we have the Liberty Village and I'm I'm going to put it out there I think Liberty Village is starting so I I don't know whether we'll get through it in one I don't know there's lot Rie consistency review for the ordinance on the DB and DV so right right so we'll have a little bit of stuff there um looking ahead even further just so everybody's aware um and that we' put it on as soon as we can did we get an answer from um The Tea House did you manage to speak to them Cara about putting it on the December 9th and noticing for that something I it's okay I because I I wanted to I wanted them to know that we were going to try to get them on as soon as possible and I not knowing that you had spoken to Cara I um today because I had um Steve was just here well I had said something earlier um because Bob clarico had gotten back with um possibly having completeness and public he the liberty of sporting that to Steve gromberg he did respond um December 10th or the 17th would be great we wouldn't be able to M was in time for the 27 26th and that's right we did talk about we did talk about that um right thanks for raising that because for the board I wanted to let them know Although our procedure normally is to do consistency and then the public hearing separately for this applicant being as they're coming the second time and everything is on and a local and we want to try and assist them as much as we can if it's um with the board's education I did suggest that we could do it in one in one meeting um do the consisting and move straight on the the question is which one we want to so which one well one not coming which one of I not coming for I that's another point I'm not here on the 10th so Jim W be not is it the 10th or the 9th I the 10th um I won't be here on the 10th um it depends if Liberty Village goes needs two meetings that's my that's my I thought do I'm saying because we have because we have the Democratic committee are we going to get through the hole of Liberty Village as well half night well I don't think they could notice for the 10 and if we do not have time to hear them to the 17th but I'd rather them know that head that it's and why it would be right so then he can not he can take note next week if we have to carry the Liberty vill we can tell him straight away that we're continuing right that it would be the week after yeah but he would probably need to notice I would have him for for the 10th have him noticed for the 10th and then you know again with the understanding and you know that we'd have to carry and we can continue to carry right and if need be we can car car January we have to yeah I'd rather not I'm just saying yeah no I just want to I just the view to moving it along for them because I know they're having challenges and I don't want this process to be large part of their Challenge and the only other thing in which um it's up to um the board whether I was going to put the 2025 meeting dates together um for discussion so I can yes you know have that for next Tuesday if we get to it or at least on to the 20 on to the 10th as well so that we can it so so the issue is trying to get um PE berries in as soon as possible is that I mean and and I know that I I mean I know we get to the end of the year and there's always all sorts of of of issues at the end of the year but for something not controversial right T I don't think T is controversial like and I know the mayor at the beginning of the years said and I don't want any special meetings but couldn't there be an option for a special meeting for Te that we don't need that because we've got the two meetings right so if Liberty Village is only is a next the next meeting and the you're thinking are youting that Liberty vage I asked this of Beth right from an area need of Redevelopment um because you know the board trying to think of the majority of our board have they sat through an area need of Redevelopment which is really not they're not as normal I shouldn't say normal they're not as straightforward because we're going off of what the council has declared as you know what's allowed and what's not allowed so it's really like gone to the days well I'm not sure I agree with what well but the council we have less so could we get through it I see what you're saying because if we need we need to read the Redevelopment agreement to know that we that's what we're based on it has to match that right rather than everything rather than there's so right applicant that comes in there's so much to think about and oh my goodness what about this and what about that and we thought about traffic and have we thought about this is yeah there's a there the board has less jurisdiction over the application by virtue of how the Redevelopment plan was crafted which included a concept plan that said the developer and the Redevelopment agreement says basically the con the developer has got to build this so to the extent that the board might under typical circumstances say you know what we don't like those buildings over here that's a problem put those over there and move the road from A to B Etc that type of discussion is largely outside of your scope for this upcoming application but all of the other smaller aspects of the development like is the lighting okay are the trees okay um are the a a lot of that as most of that remains now there might be alternative standards set forth in the Redevelopment plan but the board still has the ability to review it um so while yes the board scope is is significantly smaller than it might be if this were just a conventional uh site plan application but the board's role here is still uh there's still much about the project that was UN that was not engineered and unrefined when the Redevelopment plan and agreement were were adopted so it's still could that's quite a large project and it depends how many members of the public if there's a suggestion um uh so the Liberty Village is coming in on the 26 if it does continue through um just the setting the agenda we could because I don't think that tea berries or 100 te will take very long right um we could put them first because it is amended it's not a new application so no on the 10 on the 10 but first do it before continuing continuing the Liberty Village which that's a much larger I this is why we pay you big I like that idea yeah can we we can do that right I mean just to be able to help something take then they know where they're going shorter amount of time exactly let's do that let's have them notice for that and say that we'll give them that consideration I think that's yes and they'll go first on the agenda before any let Liberty Village know the same next week that if it continues we already have that now if if if you do put them on first for the 10th and we don't get to the Democratic committee doesn't that make Democratic committee they'll be done before Liberty Village oh it's not I thought this was the I thought Liberty bill was first thought I'm sorry so we they've already noticed for so that's why I was saying how much of Liberty Village get to because it depends how long that one goes I don't know how long that's going to be I have no idea um okay so as long as the board think that's a good idea we'll go forward on that basis I that's great thank you and yes Eileen also mentioned in that discussion there that she' be pulling together some dates talking to Carla too to coordinate dates for next year we usually look at those for next year and review them so come thinking about dates any conflict um that may with our usual dates for next year Second Memorial day but any personal on can bring up right be prepared to bring that up we'll throw those to eile to bring up a calendar for next year and I vote for not doing on the week each other I don't know I don't know how we agree to this one but we'll get it I'm not looking forward to the fact we got this week and then next Tuesday I didn't like to have especially when there's one on Thanksgiving weekend we all know my apprehension of Thanksgiving weekend meetings well let's I know but we got a lot to do Todd that's the thing we want to slow these people down all right so that said I don't have anym and I love the fact that the time is the time so um uh item for the only thing under chair items with with the signage that came up um I know we never met as a sign Review Committee we had a lot of issu but this was one of the things we wanted to look at and I didn't want to say it B based on part of the application but the amount of our businesses that have covered 100% of their window I mean and again I'm going off of memory both liquor stores The Mattress Store Burlington Co Factory the dentist um I believe Staples covers I mean it is it's a thing out there that people are doing this so why not try to catch it if we can and say this would be a better option even though you can't write an ordinance for everything but I mean can draft something and circulate amongst the S Review Committee that says listen we might want to consider this because it's coming um and I think that some things you don't really realize that people do it like even though they're not in the burrow like Jeff was talking about like think of about Harbor Freight 100% of the windows you don't know they're windows they're just block white there's a wall behind them that's not in the bur but it's not in the burrow but those are the examples and that was outside but these are all in the burrow and I believe they've all done this um and I certainly agree that um we usually have our end of VI uh suggestion of what we given Varian we've given for me personally it's certainly going to trigger that I think yes it triggers a review of our sign ordinance probably for the opposite reason that you're thinking I want to review to let's be expressly say whether we want this or not no but that's I think we can come up with things in that District in that District I don't think that you could say if you have to yes if you have to cover a window this is the way gets done that you know that I certainly this has raised a a loophole that we need to discuss and think about for sure and I think that needs to go into that review and especially you know Zone by Zone District by District where you can get um like I said especially if we want to allow this in that zone but nowhere else we need to that's not expressed right if you so something like that we need to like say it's avable here floats out right I think that's definitely a discussion that needs to happen next year yeah all right so um if nobody else has anything I don't um item 14 bills I did I miss no we didn't get any did I see any bills come through on there were bills yeah I that we bought the bills there's some from 22nd and I must have been talking to my husband or something sorry um all right so we have a motion to the bills can we have the roll Mr Hill yeso yes Mr cion yes gin I'll have stay Mr yes won yes yes yes here um do we have need to go to Executive session yes and good answer good answer um all right item 16 motion to adjourn all right all in favor time everybody see you next Tuesday turkey we got one meeting before