##VIDEO ID:odQ6VBx4Nh0## call this mate to order of the planning board of Flemington for uh no it's not Yeah Tuesday September 24th 2024 can it all rise as you able flag un States nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all right this meeting is all pursuant to the provisions of the open public meetings act both adequate and electronic notice of this meeting has been provided by way of publication in the hunted and County Democrat and Kia news news papers onor about February 1st 2024 and January 30th 2024 in addition notice of the meeting was posted at the B of Flemington Municipal Building located at 38 Park Avenue and any handicapped accessible entrances there to posted on the municipal website provided to the municipal clerk and distributed to all persons if any requesting copies of the same this meeting is being recorded with both audio and video and may be rebroadcast this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and deorum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times thank you right um ien can we take the vocal mayor Carol yeah councilwoman forar yeah Mr Campion is excused Miss gin yeah Mr Hill here Mr dashna is excused Mr cook here miss whitesman here Mr Sino here miss swingle here Mr eeko here Mr show here M kazinski here Mr clarico here and Mr Harris here is here for Miss mcis and Mr trapman is excused okay item one on the agenda is here for public comments this is for um anything that is not currently on the agender is there any I can't see the list of people at the moment I me can you tell me uh there's nobody else in attendance all right oh that's why I can't see it probably um so we've got nothing from anybody online um and I'm seeing nobody in the room we'll move just checking I'm making sure they can see I'm che's hiding behind the chairs or behind Mr Galina um all right item two May comments um I really don't have much just let make the council did introduce the um that update for the TC Zone um forgot anything okay we're in the spirit of a very fascinating I have comments comment my only item was the map so okay all right item for Dennis HPC comments please um two items 171 Main Street the T berries um uh building we approved a revised location of the outside Refrigeration additional window in the rear of the building an exhaust Hood vent a fence around where the trash uh is going to go and then uh also they're going to paint the doors and paint trim highlights so that was approved um I asked if they were coming to the planning board they said that was their next step uh since it is a change from some of the things that were approved especially the refrigeration unit where it is um so you'll be getting that we're still working on the resolution but uh it was approved in the meeting and then the other thing um they're drafting a response on the Liberty Village um no change to what we previously said uh if the developer does work on three Church Street which is historic um he would have to come to the HPC to get approval of any work that's being done those are the the two items okay thanks Dennis yeah West also the council approved the introduction of um uh a new temporary signed ordinance at the request of our um Property Maintenance officer and um the land use uh update that would go along with that so it's two parts that land use portion the planning board has to also um take look at and concur with did you get that I I got that today yes I did not get the map well the map came from here so I think the map was the map we already approved the Zone which has never included the map for some reason okay so I don't think there's no word yeah there nothing recent that was sent to to me for the math and I thought it was adopted last night so what what I prepared what I prepared for the board if I can mayor um I prepared two resolutions for you to consider both ordinance 22419 and then 202 2422 um you know very simple what we usually look at um the consistency aspect and then if there are any recommendations so both of those are are ready to go for tonight and then I could just make the changes based upon what the discussion is I think the only outstanding one is the historic element of the master plan that one I know we're still waiting on um but other than that I have the other two already Fusion on the council side of the because we keep showing that the public hearing is open here are you like so nothing has gotten onto the for some reason it's often posted for are we closing the public hearing or is it staying open until the council passes yeah so what happened was there were two components to what we did the component of amending the Z the district and some of the um home designations within the district that was done and closed and recommended to council the reason we left the historic element portion open on our end is because there was one change that was being recommended to council with regard to the church um the the garage at the Cal Calvary Church site so we figured let's keep our historic element portion open because that does not have to go back to council but it certainly should incorporate whatever other changes to the district or designations within the district that they may recommend so that's why we kept that open so once you guys approve and send back the change to the historic district and the designations then we could do both close the public hearing on the other one and give the recommendations with regard to the um historic element as well I don't think we've even intr UC the historic so yeah you're GNA have to introduce the amendment to the historic district yeah to the planning board prior to yep all right so we'll do that on the 15th we'll introduce the math yep on the 15th I don't know when we are meeting because I can't remember because it's that weird it's that weird U month because of uh because of colus day okay yeah I can me see we have off by week so yeah okay yeah because you're off from us but whenever the case may be if you want to give me a buzz I can you know just specifically say what should be added to the agenda but once that's done then we can take care of both aspects of that at our next meeting and close the loop on both okay a confusion um okay so those other two ordinances are both on the agenda later on we will get to those um later on so let's move to um item five professional reports does any any of our professionals have any reports today just quickly um I don't think we have to go into executive session but what we had discussed with regard to a potential meeting with the new owner um of the sign I did send out a request I have not heard back yet so as soon as I do I'll update you and uh we'll go from there thank you all right item six is approval of the minutes from September 10th 2024 meeting um they were all they were distributed um does anybody have any comments or additions or amendments to make to those that were sent out no see you n can I get a motion to approve the minutes September 10th please you Mr cook yes mayor Cara yeah councilwoman forar yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill was not there is Whitman yes Mr Smo yes Miss s yes oh for the record I'm here I got here right before Cara gave her report but I would abstain anyway oh sorry thank you it was yeah for the record Mr D is here thank you thank you excellent f um okay thank you then let's go to item seven which is a resolution 20245 for Plaza 1 LLC application 20245 yes there were some uh minor changes made the testifying witness Mr gromberg informed me that the spelling uh was uh ranc v r a n i a k I had I so I changed that and on page five there was a sentence um plan manness have noted that proposed use is not a retail I had office that was changed to use so Beed use is not a retail use and it okay so everybody saw um that that you sent a draft of that R right joh um so does anybody have any comments on that resolution before we um vote to result I don't see anybody and those that can uh are eligible to vote for mayor Karen giin Mr cook M whitesman Mr Sino M swingle and Mr show all right then can we call a roll for that then please do I need a motion thank you got myself now can we [Music] call Mayor Carol yes Mr cook yes councilwoman pasaro yes Miss giin yes Miss whitesman yes Mr simino yes M wi yes Mr sh yes thank you thank you very much and um I think it's worth um I I just want to say about that one that was one of the ones where we were being asked to determine um an appeal based from the zoning officer and I think it's just worth saying that just Qui as we um Chang the decision of the Zone after so doesn't mean if those come to us again it has to be changed right we we have a choice on an individual as case needed B do that Mak sense yes yes all right okay all right let's move to um item eight then um this is completeness uh for it's listed here as the hcdc application 20248 again this is one of these appealing decision of an administrative officer so it's an interesting one for complain this right right so I did a review of September 20th I uh used our new checklist um as for fire documentation uh there was a few items that the applicants were asking for waivers on there was two items I found that they didn't submit uh subsequent to that the attorney for the applicant um did submit an email with an explanation on what the what the waivers they were requesting that was one of the missing items they need to have some support for they asking for waivers so that submitted uh and they also addressed an issue relating to the fees and explanation of how the fees were calculated uh and um and I am dealing with a number of copies of this submission so I did an updated email indicating the items checklist items A and B that had been addressed item W was also addressed that just left uh items uh c and d one of which they're well they're asking for a waiver on on on that one uh and uh and item D I had indicated was really not applicable item D says have to outline what the variances they're asking for in this case they're asking for interpretation they don't need about so that would really be not applicable uh so they're asking for a waiver on an applicant's disclosure statement the attorney explained why they weren't able to do that I think the board has that information that's something the board would have to decide it's completen this matter uh and the uh item J was something I previously recommended they you grant waver from then providing deeds and title information I thought this kind of application now was really not useful information so because they are looking to to it's just an OCC unit in building and C was the list of offices wasn't it something that they did they they explain because it was they explain in in a flux situation so so that would be something they would want us to Grant a waiver for for completeness that they don't have to have that right now you have two wavers a waiver on item C and my prior recommendation for a waiver on item J yeah and then I would recommend if the board's going to make a motion granting those waivers um that once the issue with regard to the officers has been resolved that they submit that to the board so we have that for our files that would be temporary waiver correct so C would be a temporary waiver J was saying is per proposing a permanent way though all right does anybody on the board have any comments or queries on this one for anybody before we uh look at completeness determination you feel strongly feel middling know I'll move that we deem the application complete with a temporary W on item C the disclosure statement and a uh permanent labor on J you comfortable with that Absolutely I'll second okay and um who's eligible to vote on this if anybody abstaining on this one it's a good point car do we make a note now or does it further if people are abstaining uh yes let's make that note now if there's anybody I would just like to put you know uh the reason for the exstension because no one's precluded from uh I can participating in this unless there's some sort of conflict issue so you want that now yeah okay abstaining as I'm member of the democratic Committee of H County okay thank you thank you other than that can we call the RO on this one complet yes um Mr cook yes may Carol yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill I yes uh Mr dashna yes Miss whitesman yes Mr Sino yes and Miss SLE yeah oh I'm sorry there's actually one more um Mr eeko Excuse me uh yes thank you all right thank you so um that would go and I was looking in the bag because I wrote a little note of like the up M and what would go in each one and I think I left it on my desk um well the next one that avilable be yeah it's only two weeks and they wouldn't have make the notice and then the next one would be October 22nd I can meet after Council to see um right now October 8th we have uh completeness for Liberty Village uh public hearing for National pools and 110 Main Street and and the 22nd has nothing so we could put it public hearing into that for this one yeah I could be attorney and ask if the 22nd is yes because because um as well October that 22nd is too close to the 8th to notice for that one so that would have to so let's um with the absence of um anybody here but we'll put it on the agenda tentatively for that date then providing they can get their notice and whatever else they need okay okay escrow yes I will check that escrow and make sure that there's sufficient um start the public hearing right I'll make a statement in chair I about the es situation um okay all right then um let's move on then to item oh well actually item nine um this is the we we talked about this with the May Kara earlier this is the public hearing for the master plan hiso historic district element which um I propose we carry again to the next meeting until which is basically until after Council have done what they need to do and be the 22nd because I think the the council meeting isn't until the 15th well we introduce on the 15th let public right so if you ince on the 15th then it would come back to the board on the 22nd hang on a second because October got screwed up because November's a little up as well right W won so um we have we have our first meeting which will get introduced on the 15th and then our second meeting of the month is the 28th of October right so we have to do that on the 22nd so it's in between those corre okay you want to carry it to the 22 carry it to the 22nd then yep yeah right thank you all right well we're marching on we at number 10 already um consistency review this is for ordinance 20249 the ordinance amending section 2611 of the code entitled zoning map this was distributed to everybody a bit last minute because this came last night from Council um but we need an explanation for the board of what we're doing here you to give that so as the mayor alluded to this um ordinance just updates the zoning map um based off of the rezonings that were recommended on the master plan specifically about the uh in the northern portion of the B buau like those uh Parcels that were in the PO District just resoning to TC and then um I believe one parcel also was reson to PSP like public uh Zone and then um the ordinance also removes the PO district and removes the rash overlay and this is something that came from our master plan from the it came from the ordinance subcommittee last year and for some crazy reason everybody thought that this was approved and it never was right like just so we're just Tiding up we're Tiding up Tiding up right and it'll help clean up some of the stuff that's happening offic it gets rid of all those sic codes it does it does well at least in these zes right you can't have right know yes okay all right we best not talk about that but um yeah exactly thanks I don't know what talk about so in terms of a consistency review car what do we have to do formally with this uh yes so we need to make a motion uh to deem that the ordinance is not substantially inconsistent with your master plan and if there are any recommendations which I expect here uh there wouldn't be because we're just kind of tying everything up in a neat little bow um I would just say that motion should also include I'll amend the resolution I have I had referenced Beth in it I will put Brett in it um and I'll also include the voting as it takes place tonight um as well as that finding and is everybody eligible to vote for this one full okay does anybody have any questions on this then given that this has been proposed by the uh I'll come from the work of the committee um I think I trust the people from our board that were on the committee did the work question there was a unanimous vote last year to send it I'm not prejudging anything like I'm a Shan I'm just asking the question right so here is n is anybody um I'll make the motion that um uh that ordinance 20249 is not substantially inconsistent to our master plan and I'll second that what he said what he said uh thank you e could we call a role on that then please Mr cook yes Mr sinina yes mayor Carol yes councilwoman yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill yes Mr Das yes Miss whitesman yes and the swingle yes all right moving on to item 11 this again is a consistency review of ordinance 2024 D20 did I what did I just say 2024 s22 okay an ordinance amending chapter 26 Zone in section 2631 signs to amend the regulations for temporary signage so we do need a discussion explanation by May um so earlier this year I received um a call from our property maintenance officer and our zoning officer uh because a nonprofit in town was going to have an event came in for a permit and to find out about permitting temporary signs and found out that at some point and I don't know I have no idea when this was and neither did they um six or eight years ago approximately maybe 10 years ago some some Administration passed a temporary sign ordinance requiring a $50 fee per sign so this noner profit which wanted to put out you know 20 signs around town was going to basically be charged $1,000 and our zoning officer uh didn't have the heart to do it and um fully read the ordinance and they contacted me the two of them contacted me um at that point he made a judgment call and allowed them to put up 10 signs for $50 um as a one-time thing and then asked that the bur will clean this ordinance up so we've had I want to say I don't even know Council woman six or eight work sessions refining um a temporary sign ordinance and IT addresses both for-profit and not for profit uh basically if you're already paying for a permit or example your resident paying for a garage sale permit you get X number of free signs included in that permit same thing if you're a for-profit or nonprofit there's a $50 fee for one there's a $25 fee for one $50 fee for the other you get X number of signs with your permit uh you're allowed to put them up to two weeks in advance of an of an event they have to come down within three days after the event uh there is a $10 per sign per day violation um if they don't take them down because our property Na's officer spends an inordinate amount of time removing signs all over this town um so it uh there is a stick um IT addresses also uh coming soon Banner kind of temporary signs uh allowing those to go up 60 I think it's 60 days prior to an event but it needs to suggest when they're actually coming um and then they can uh you know coming soon this Christmas coming soon this spring those who got room um so uh it does not address my kid graduated from Hunter essential High School kind of signs it does not it does not address you know the oneoff where somebody might have a uh Church bizar sign on their lawn nor does it address any political signs so but it updates the whole thing and makes it a lot Kinder and gentler and much more enforcable than um than the current ordinance and you know the council and especially our professionals are very anxious for us to get this thing done so they don't have to continue to um allow you know I mean they're basically looking the other way right now and they're very uncomfortable with right now this $50 per sign fee but we're only responsible because none of that is we don't have any of that from a fee perspective all we have is the the land use portion of that right exactly that goes with it um that's right that's exactly right so so I I do have some questions just making sure that I understand because there's not many changes to it at all um other than um lengthening the days after an event be seven now it's 14 um so when you well that's for a sale or lease not an event right well there's 14 14 and three days after three days after so three is like if stage has a chug showell s you have three days to take them down um you have a garage sale you have three days to take it down um so so the the only thing that I was confused at on when I I'm thinking I gu the solve for the permitting because many of us didn't even know that existed on on permitting but um just for my own edification the FCP is exempt from this I've been told because the FCP has large banners all over town that are much larger than anything that's allowed so the F SCP collects public taxes in is part of us right so they are allowed to do because I I think some of some folks have come to me as a sign Review Committee uh member and said but I don't understand they have banners on the fence for example that say you know uh sip roll Thursdays right and and I'm assuming that that falls under something that has not changed which is just a banner a temporary Banner or it doesn't fall under any of it it doesn't really fall under any of it but we have asked the executive director to be mindful that if these you know if the Sip ands are every Thursday that's one thing but if it's you know um corn beer Tom it's got it inter date get it off so so again we're not you know that there's no Sol there's no need for a solve for that because that is and essentially part of the government right right but to your point Todd I see your point part five on the on the on section two page two of this mentions a default banner and it says a banner which is exempt a banner designated by FCP and this this wording refers to when we used to put the banner just over Main Street when we did music on Main it was there was always one across by the courthouse maybe we need to take the the spe specific wording out that it can be FCP any FCP as deemed for what no there is a separate Banner ordinance in this town and we're working on revising that as well I saw the FCP Banner falling under item D up above which is under temporary banners because it says at the courthouse Union hotel which is we're waiting for some infrastructure to go back up EXA um but uh it does say or two at the location of business of event and up to three additional locations in the burrow so the things on the fence on Dave Dallas's property for example that you know the FCP has sort of taken that fence or um they used to be up in front of the filling station but regardless just so just so I'm clear it doesn't really matter for the FCP because that's the government and they can choose to put a sign up I mean their signs are larger than than what's allowed as well so this is not that this is more folks that are um advertising an event um the only thing that I found uh awkward if you will that's the right word is a campaign driver event um with no end date so I walked around town to see so these are the these are the no end dates black lives matter uh hate has no home here so as long as they're on private property they are not cover that's so as long as long as somebody doesn't because then like support for Ukraine like they were the one people really adamant that we weren't going to touch on individual the some members of council were adding others were willing to take it on and yes we just we just decided to like not include that but so this is more if it's but they have to be on right they have to be on private property they're not allowed to be on E or anything like that yeah so right so it's included like I said my K graduated from you know Central come to macula Festival black lives matter all that stuff uh you know including political signs are all so that all comes out which is great because that would be a nightmare for officer but the uh the sign for the lease or sale of a building there would be some in town that would be under violation of this you didn't change it Fe but there are some very large for sale sign and and some of them have already been cited by our Zing our our property manag officer some of them already have S on okay so so again I didn't know if if you were trying to clean things up because item number one eight square feet is essentially two foot by 4 foot 2 and a half by two and a half he he looks at it more like you know like some of those large for sale Le signs yes are have these massive wooden Stakes driven into the ground and he considers those permanent not temporary because of the way they've been driven into the ground and the size of them they fall under something else he has where he's been like you need to change these that's not our problem you know he's got some other ordinance that he's going after on that okay but um small real estate signs would fall under um yeah it's covered in there like you're having your roof done yeah I I read all that I was trying to find the the fix like I'm walking around town I'm think wow okay that for sale sign is about fouret by six feet on yeah Dave is on it okay that would fall under here because think about the um the um application method because you could take it for sale sign it's like some some real estate agents have those beautiful signs go on the big giant post that somewh are be like permanent you know versus the XT berries yes yes but they're still for sale signs right but that's not considered like Dave said that is not a temporary sign so well maybe they fixed it I don't yeah okay yeah because that didn't change I was expecting that to change with the square feet you know the council was very thoughtful there was a lot of debate including right up to last night and um uh you know I just got to referee this the six of them so I had prob fun um so you know but it was really like I said it really about getting this $50 per sign per sign fee out there uh because it's just like untenable is the word it's an untenable amount of money to charge people and the um if it's on private property but it's advertising an event yes I think if it's on your house advertising an event it's your house advertising event if it's at the business advertising event then it falls under this because they had to get the permit right they had to get a permit for for so many days for their event and then you took one of the signs because you know the people want to put it on your lawn um it's different because it's on your lawn versus if they put it in some easements and they put it in front of new Dallas's sign and they put it down on the corner of uh uh well we don't care if they put it in the corner of shop right that's certain in Township that's their problem um but you know if they put it down stangle so they have then this falls under the permit but if they give you one and put it on your lawn then it's your son so so when you original example M you said the nonprofit came if they could have put said that they were putting those on private property they wouldn't have had they might have been able to get away with that I'm not quite sure I might be speaking out J onist because I'm you know Dave may not interpret it that way because it doesn't fall under black lives matter it's an event now right so he still might say you got to get that down in three days right um which is reasonable if something's gone like let's let's tidy up and let's not Happ right but that's what I was thinking but there's also like the climate change signs that are some of them are so old I think from two election CES ago and but dat event is what I mean so is it so I you basically saying that like this because of course we're not privy to all the other stuff as Todd said but effectively this is tidying it up in terms of being clearer on the fees that need to be found but we still retain the ability to for the property maintenance for people to go after the SS that we need to be got rid of is that fair enough and and the council felt strongly on the event um uh post no more than two weeks prior yes that was a real fast unanimous yeah okay because I I know that the big events in town we typically do 30 or 60 days out right car shows House tours um St is government government yeah's house we asked car show could fall under us and general car shows the dates that's our event and then the um your tomatoes are event but they could they meaning we meaning Z officer could go after those that put things on easements I see things power washing one those are already illegal go under state law and we have an ordinance and our zoning officer does go by and pick not our zoning officer our property maintenance officer goes by and um calls the people to get them down gives them the opportunity does take them down there's some right now down by Steve's that he needs a ladder forp up right here he throws them away I see the he throws them away jpnl also is working on getting those sand blasting signs down because those people continue to put them up so JC pel is also on that to make it permanent fix okay disc question one more Sor perspective the base you know the way I read you know our land use what we're what we charged for here such minimal changes I mean I guess not the Minimus Cara as you would say but you know it really did just increase it gave people a longer Le way to take sign down and for an event it gave a window two weeks prior three days after and that's really the only change you know so I'm happy I mean we have discussion afterwards I'm happy that to to move that this is not substantially inconsistent with um with our master plan or or the z z that goes so I I'll gladly make that motion I'll second oh there we go I love so now I mean we had discussion does anybody else have discussion based on that motion that we have open to us this is very clear so it it makes straightforward and makes sense so I like ITV be very making and our property Vance officer also because right now he's got there's no teeth in the current ordinance well that's that's that's that's was doing just for that so first discussion if nobody else has any um comments and raise then um Alan can we call the role on V in on the motion that Mr cook made please sure Mr cook yes Mr D yes mayor Carol yes Council womano yes Miss giin yes Mr Hill yes Miss whitesman yes Mr yes and Miss swingle yes thank you thank you thank you right I'll get that amended and over for execution thank both of them great excellent all right um item 12 very gener discussion planning board application revisions to for May is this are you leading this discussion I I um I got a an email from uh kendel and Joshua Parks um our sewer and water um supervisors and they would like to right now the the application has form a which includes the sewer and water is a combined form they would like to separate those it's U minor um from what I've understand from them and it does say um kind of goes towards the the checklist as well it says a well served letter we'll continue to keep that form a and um after speaking to carara um it sounds like it's something that can be done at the board level doesn't it's not required by ordinance or set by ordinance so this is a form a part one and a form a part two Shing your head yeah yep so we Bob and I took a look at it took a look at the new checklist and the Lang as long as we continue to reference it as a form a we're fine um if they want to change it then you know it may have to change the reference on the checklist but I think we just leave it as is and and everything is fine and the original form a was a document that was um that came from our water and sewer department they created it so so again looking at this if if they created form a that was combined and now they want to create form A-1 and two and it's a part I mean that's I for SE department for and I can insert that in I've already so are they G to actually be two separate pieces of paper it will all be in the same application but yes there's two pages on for each of them yeah it looks like there's two word can I ask a question I'm sorry um it literally is the exact same form except for question 4 on the top of Page Three says description of water versus description of sewer can I ask why we're creating this burden for an applicant to have to fill out the same four pages almost identically twice like what what what's the problem with water and sewer that they're trying to solve by splitting it out that I don't know they they made the request um yeah and I the only the only thing I could think of from a PR iCal standpoint I I I hear what Jeff's saying you know there's one change um I don't know if there's been a problem up until this point with transferring it from one to the other do they submit one to each department for them to fill out like I don't know procedurally how that worked out but the only problem I could see is if they submitt it to water who then has to get it over to sewer and you know that that might have taken a while but other than that I I don't see any difference either you know as I can tell my concern is if you get a a discrepancy between the two on the same applicant one small one large like isn't it the demand on sewer based on water consumption so then how do you reconcile the two you got two separate forms I just know that there not everybody's on public water in this town so it may be that well there 14 of us I'm one of them on a private well there more than 14 I think there's 36 private wells in town oh 36 there's also 1,00 households so it is it's a small hand it's a small handful I mean I mean I don't know why they're asking for it but um would you would you like Jeff would you like me to reach out to them and find that find an answer to that question that I'm just I'm just trying to make it as easy as possible for an applicant where the first three pages are literally The Identical information that we have for which three pages has the exact same information on it's one thing and then there's two pages that are different one gets filled out and executed by the water department one gets exed and filled out by the sewer department if this is like I just again I'm just trying to make this as easy as possible for an applicant who is going to be submitting anyone who submitting for a they got a lot of work to do right it's not a little project it's a big too so um and again the the point that that that Don was Raising like what if there's discrepancy like what what's prevailing here so if we can figure out what the problem they're trying to solve is and if it's literally just who gets to look at it first and who's paper needs signatures and it's harder if it gets lost between one and the other then I think there's another there's we can that's solvable right I just I just want I just if you take if you take the Distillery site that wasn't always a Distillery it was retail stores and um now it's a Distillery which presumably could be using a tremendous amount of public water and that formet has never been submitted even though the water department has been asking for years so this may be a change of use thing where people already have sewer and it's just an easy little whatever but it's about it's about a change of use whether it's a t be is going to a restaurant now you know which was a law office with a couple of lawyers in it now it's going to have 90 people in it which is a different water uses is a different sewer usage I mean that may be why they're asking for it because uses change and and then need changes no I I agree with I agree with with the example that you're given mayor what I'm saying is that that's not what they're asking they're asking us to change the form not when the form gets used and wouldn't this also I I I read this too as doesn't this just double the fees I read this as because the fees the fee schedule Remains the Same 1250 on both not not together you used to be on on the same form right the fee schedule but now the fee schedule is two separate ones so it would essentially double the fees to an applicant that's why that's the reason that's the way I look at maybe they had to cover their you know who's ever reviewing or well and if that's the case then then Karen if you can find that out because I think then that that if if if the if they need more if it's if if their question is we need to cover the cost of review by both Water and Sewer Department Personnel and we need to charge more fee then that's fine but I don't know if we can do it by changing the form that may require something else to change right yeah find out what their driver was and see if this is the best way they might have felt that this was the simplest way to affect the change that they needed it for um but we might it might be better to do it another way but I'll find that out and we report back to the board next time so we'll we had discussion I we definitely did discussion I was useful thank you very much everyone wish Mike was here you just answered the question yeah but I'll give him a call and we'll work that out no worries yeah but good good uh good comments that's that's why we have this board everyone has just view points on it all right does anybody else want to raise anything else from that before I move on move on right we're doing so well right now all right oh we're on 13 chair items right um so before we go on to the next meeting I want to raise something um put something out there in terms of um so for applications so um I'm raising this because we've had various applications where well number one e wants us to have a discussion about the fee schedule the fee schedule for the escros but that's set by it's something that we're communic we want to have a discussion on at some point um you were going to for that for me pull up a schedule of what the average esro spend has been under the escro spend for typical applications yeah I still have to go through some of that data and some of this is been what this is being driven by is the difficulty with some applicants that Eileen has when she's trying to when the escrow is almost depleted and she's trying to get them to provide EXT additional escrow and not having um teeth as it were well you say you you asked them for the thing to be increased and then it takes a while it takes a while but there's also a delay and I don't know if this there's a fix for it you application comes in you get the fees we set them up for completeness that's one meeting and then it's say it's in August I don't get those bills until September now sometimes that that whole escrow balance is used up because the the fee schedule is outdated you know we're getting almost you know 200 you know $150 to $200 an hour for some of the professionals so by the time I get the bill that escrow is almost completely depleted and um the other issue I find is that like to have a realistic amount for an applicant to even an expectation of how much it would cost and that's not so there's some some push back on that too from some of the applicant I get some email saying I didn't think it would cost this much you know I had no idea and you you know they've had an attorney they have those fees as well and it becomes so I don't then they it's very hesitant to when I ask for for additional escrow but what what this had and the reason I want to amend this or address this is that what it has meant in the past is that the buau has effectively been bankrolling applications by not having by expending the fees that are rightly needed to be expended in order to process applications properly as we're supposed to but then the escrow is not there and we've been a little maybe a little too easy going with people we want to help people but not to the point where we putting the bur at risk of expending monies um so I'm going to the one thing I will do to support alien is put out there as a public notice to all applicants and their attorneys is that what's your escrow level and discuss with us um before we move to a next stage of an application where we may be expending a large amount of your escrow and we will not move forward unless addition what's the word I'm looking for sufficient um escrow and we can work with people on that and try and work that out um based on previous applications if sufficient escrow is not in place we will not be putting people on the agenda are you working on giving us a suggested increase I can if you could give us yeah what if you take like the last 20 applications what was the total escrow that was collected and then we that would give us a number to work with that will take some of the pressure off of I an analis what type of application and how much that cost I mean it's so varied and um frankly from you know depending on the each application is so unique and we're getting some different types of applications is there a difference between okay I'm building ground up or or so there's a difference to me between Millies the hotel what's going on at Liberty Village versus I'm going to bring a business into an existing location and retrofit it and it's the smaller ones that are seem to be the issue I mean there must there must be some correlation if we did a little bit of analysis between us I there must be some correlation between I think the correlation will be between um plans number of plan sheets that are needed for a project and the esro that's sp there must be because you know we see how if you've got a folder full of pound plans or you've got two sheets necessarily that's a bit of an indicator of the size of a project and the complexity or if you've got multiple reports most of these have gotten through like the Right Aid project got through in one night CH got through in one night um yeah Max DOL took two nights or three a little while but it was extensions and things it was more right it was more complicated yeah there was a lot of testimony on and and they they were not a problem and it it was more of the smaller uh your smile um uh seabert uh you know um some of the things that are in the in the works now so is people who are like new to this and really their one-offs that they've never done well the the initial escrow is $700 so you know by the time you get to through completeness um it's it's almost gone okay yeah so yes we could work on on making work with some of theard professionals what do how many hours do you think that this is going to take and then we can get an idea because um it just sounds like we need to update the Esra ordinance up front up mayor if I can um and the rest of the board I can just tell you that this is a New Jersey land use issue I mean every town every applicant is dealing with this and applicants especially the smaller ones are consistently having an issue and I can say this from both sides of the table um representing them as well as the board um that it's expensive but again it is what it is it's a New Jersey issue um what most towns are doing are exactly what you're doing right now taking a look seeing how much the average is updating the ordinances and um Karen and I talked about this a little bit I think you might want to also consider making a recommendation to council that there be some teeth in the escro ordinance that says and I'll just give you some examples from other towns but you know some are a little more aggressive than others for example if you have a $5,000 escrow up front once that escrow goes below a th000 you must replenish it up to the original amount I don't know what we ask for on the second round but if there's some teeth in there that says what you have to ask for what you have to bring it back up to it helps Eileen with saying well look at section blah blah blah this is what you have to do there are also some towns that have in there that if you don't have it replenished then you're not coming before the board I mean I I've had to come to some towns with checks in hand now again very aggressive but this is what some towns are doing to rectify the issue that you're all having so there's a lot of different ways to do it but the more teeth in the ordinance for E to deal with the better money for a really long time it's been more over the last year and I you know it's you know and there's been like you know one one developer like how many times did did he say I'll have it in by next week I'll have it in by next week and that went on for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks two dress two dress and downs in public to the attorney all right let's not talk about anybody specific we got to do something more aggressive I like the idea of of trums perhaps looking the esro ordinance I I like that idea Mara hey if it gets below a amount you don't come back to this board you don't take the time of our professionals until it's back out no but we just need we just need a suggestion and professionals number and I can look at other towns and see what they're doing and what their their schedule is like as well and I'll take a look at what our what we've losted them and um and when what one thing um as a as part of the notice to applicants as well really is that if they get their ducks in a row and don't keep bringing extra pieces of evidence to a public hearing if everything is given to us ahead of time we all have time to read it ahead of the meeting the meetings go quicker because we're we're not looking at information that's just been presented that day so it is in their hands to minimize how much you spent to make a public hearing go as fast as possible and um that is totally on the applicants and that is something I can say at consistency and say by the way you know make sure everything's ready make sure everything's in in time which is why we have to be again strong with not setting public hearings not reducing the time we need need time for our professionals to create reports the time for the board as volunteers to read those reports and absorb them before a public hearing and time for invoices to come in to see what those Balance are now looking at and that's part why I've been driving to make sure that we you know don't rush things don't push things through we do things in a proper timely manner then we do them better properly first time where the the board has you know a little bit of Leverage whether you go to a public hearing whether you go you know adopt a resolution whether you do compliance or something like that waiting for that resolution um you can hold it up at at certain places just curiosity like Liberty Village what what was their eser requirement they they in they um submitted $25,000 that fee they should be doing a a h fee calculation and Bob would take a look at that to make sure that that is um the but it wasn't like five grand no 25 okay okay yeah the larger ones definitely have a a calculation based on square footage and acreage and and I think things along those lines um Eileen brought up another good point though which sometimes you know again due to delay in invoices and things like that something else we could consider is resolution is not prepared or adopted until we know that either the escrow has been replenished to where it's supposed to be and we could even have the invoices in from the professionals up until that point um but you know there's a couple different things we could do but I I think the estimate is is going to be very important and that's the easiest thing because you get it up front otherwise it's much harder to get on the back end and that pretty much goes with everything things that I've been talking to Beth about a lot is resolution compliance and the fact that um we really haven't had a process to make sure that stuff has been happening it just seems like you know we do the resolution and then they disappear we disappear and trust them you know so you know i' I've been asking her to like start working with Bob regarding resolution compliance and a plan process on how to do that and that also needs to come out of an escro account you know um it a lot of that usually ends up in the site plan until it gets to a construction meeting and inspection p and that's another few that I but if can continue to go on yeah so um that needs to be in the mix two Cara yep it does and I would say that that to the chairwoman's point is also within the control of the applicant I mean if you have 10 things to do for resolution compliance and you submit eight of them and they're all in your perview to do then you're just dragging on the review and and doubling the review and doubling the time so I mean yes there are some things to make our lives easier um but you know the applicant small are large you know does have to understand some of it's on them too it's only if anybody's watching no agreed agreed you know it's hard for me to be um an enforcement on what they're going to submit when they're going to submit it on top of applicants saying you know get that stuff in because I'm talking about like what they're actually building out there whether they you know move the handicap spots from where we said or posted their own personal signage saying you know well that's more inspection related that's inspection as they're building resolution compliance is more you're not getting your building permit to even start until all the conditions in the resolution are met and so so I think the second aspect of that would fall under the inspection escrow versus the escrow for the board application and Bob might be able to expand on that a little bit but there there should be two separate fees that again can go into that yeah we don't get inspection escrow until this the plans are almost ready to be signed and resolution compliance has been um completed just add a couple of those yeah so it may be a little easier mayor than you're even thinking about it but you know that's two separate things and maybe we have to look at them both I don't know we need to look at the transition until Serv we can talk about this more offline Cur um we'll talk about more this Auto replenishment suggestion you made car I think could be a good way because I I almost want the applicants to be policing where they know they Howes go they know they have they need to come with it they need you know what I'm saying that like they know if it's been spent to a certain level just like your bank account you can't go overdraw like right right you got to add some more money into it and if we have this Auto then could I think that could be a really good tool to achieve what we're trying to achieve here yeah let's um work together I you want my help I'll work out some time to help her out we work things through we have discussions on the principal good thank you um moving on to the next meeting for your information we have October 8th meeting we have completeness for Liberty Village that's a large application make sure you have a look through that please there's a lot to look at I know um Bob told me he had a box full right so those of you who have it online it's online right if you want paper copies get in touch with alen as soon as possible she only got limited paper copies right right um so yes or somebody would like to come here there's plans on the desk back here they want something yeah there's a box there for all the okay Comm so they're available if you want toe no there's a box there unug and then we have the public hearing for the one that we complete this last week 11 10 Main Street um is that one yes that's what thr me off yeah I'm like that's not yeah so there's two public hearings yes next week next meeting um yeah and we just said that we would probably have look to have the completeness from today for the one October 22nd look ahead on the dates everybody October and November is a little off with the dates November especially um and if um if completeness next meeting goes um positively that will be coming up for public hearing um in November so we need everybody if you're going to be a w please let us know so we can make sure we've got um most likely that would be the November 12th meeting I think we have the no it's not the 19 this is why it's difference the 19 26 and the 26th in November it's odd we got two two weeks we got a big gap because Council moved their meeting right and then we we moved later third and the fourth Tuesday basically in November FYI yes so I just did I hear this correctly that the meeting is not no November's meeting is not the 12th but it's the 19th and the 26 that's what we did at the beginning of the year yeah thank you yeah because we have veterans St on that Monday of the 11th yeah because the 11th the council moved the 11th to the 12th so we lost the 12th so we on the 19th um so I'm just asking people to be aware of the dates if you're traveling for Thanksgiving if you're lucky enough to do that um let let I know so we know um if we have um enough people to do our business um other than that people and we are doing so well I'm I I have a question if um Liberty vills gets through completeness when are you thinking about setting the he November 19th is the onlyest who can do that's the leag that's Le I know it is but then it's also 42 days after that we would complete this carless if we if completeness for Liberty Village goes through on October 8th I count those days yeah I think I counted the November 19th is we have to do it by then no so the 45 days is for completeness once complete we've got at least 120 depending on what we're looking at oh okay and oh I was like we got to do it that day because I know that's the problem with having the league of municipalities is that some of you are going to be down there right you're not going to be here I may not be there and running a full public hearing but the 26 I well I'm playing a going to the league but I can bring my computer and zoom in um let's see how we go as much as I hate that idea right yeah it's not fun no no I don't mindle in a computer through a you know a casino to the normous to do with parties we're rolling [Music] cart there you go shopping trolley no not F head on carry behind um okay um I don't have any other items I want to bring up today I think it nice time it be nice to have a nice quick meeting if anybody has anything they'd like to bring up in the this section let me know good um item 14 um the bills were distributed by alen before the meeting can I get a motion to audit the bills before I make well I'll make a motion we audit the bills but I have discussion okay then let's uh discussion pleas give me a second a second for the motion for the bills please audit I'll second thank you so there was just one I didn't recognize and I apologize if I missed something spark car wash it looks like it's the address for the old Fridays and old chy Seafood yes they had a pre-application meeting okay so we don't have that is not on any dock no not at all but then would would they have put up escrow yes they did so there just something that we don't know we a pre-application meeting and we've done this before jamy shine and and some other things that t is gonna become a well juicy Seafood so a restaurant with the liquor license is going to become spark Auto spark Car Wash um with the let's not let's not talk about this no I just as long as we know I don't want to talk about any Merit or anything but just typically when we see the bills you know I remember that application I remember that applicant when I saw spark Car Wash I tried to cross reference it with an address and just had to assume that it was a pre was there a potential future application can say correct okay and when you're done with this I want to have one other comment I forgot about but you could do your vote first so I have no other comments on the bills now that so how do they pay for that they don't have an eser account right we do oh you do okay yes okay and that's been standard practice for okay yeah good okay all right um so we have a vote on the motion to audit the bills please um I missed the second Jim who's Jim yes thank you thought so but yep you're welcome Mr cook yes Mr Hill yes mayor Carol yes councilwoman foro yes Miss gin yes Mr dashna yes Miss whitesman yes Mr simino yes and Missler yes thank you car so one of the things I forgot about and this kind of makes a lot of the applicants comments or lack of knowing um mood we're required by the land use law when we submit our invoices to the town we have to send a copy to the applicant and we do that and I'm sure everybody else does as well so there on notice the second that you guys get these invoices to audit they know exactly how deficient they are or what the bills are maybe I get gu that's it they don't know if they're escrow deficient but they know because we don't have that all we have is our bill is let's say $500 so we don't know on our bill that they had 5,000 and now it's here at this point but they know what they submitted and they've seen the invoices so you know they know if they only submitted $1,000 they've got invoices for two that they're going to be at least $1,000 doll deficient every one of our profs do that yes oh okay actually my es request letter it always says copies of the invoices should be you know so again that speaks to my point of them tracking their own ESC spent they should they have the tools to be able to do it they can always ask for an assistance with tracking that too right I'm just putting the onus on their responsibility as much as just ass just assuming just assuming they're not moving forward unless but let's wrap that into a full discussion yeah um thank you for remembering that car yeah I didn't I I just sparked my memor I was like wait a minute perfect people foret sending them out all right do we need to go into executive session Cara We do not excellent love it so item 16 motion to adj the main second all in favor hi I 108 it's 8 oh I'll take good night everybody the official