##VIDEO ID:f7FxamH_eeA## this is a uh regularly scheduled joint meeting of the Fort Meyers Beach uh Town Council and the Fort Myers Beach local planning agency it is November 13th 2024 it's 8:30 a.m. and if you would please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I pled alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all yeah we should ask Don do you stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance when we do it I'm just we're just wondering Dan's wondering he usually does I think he would so yes I'll certainly will uh could we have a roll call John we can we start with you John AR King council member Jim Dunlap LPA Doug Eckman LPA Jim aderhold LP uh flashback Jan Plummer LPA Dan allers councel Anita Saras LPA Karen Woodson councel Jim Bowen LPA Scott Safford councel John mlan LPA and Don Don okay and could we have a motion please to accept Don s moved thank you thank you there's a motion in a second is there any discussion on the motion hearing no discussion all in favor thank you um okay you want me to keep going go ahead you're on a roll all right so um our we appreciate the LPA appreciates uh the fact that we have this meeting thank you Andy and Frankie for being here the staff members for being here thank you all so much and um you know the as the LPA has been hearing the cases obviously before you guys get them uh there have been several times where we've said you know it' be we just want to be on the same page and as we have talked um many times about predictability for uh folks looking to invest in our Island for people even rebuilding their homes and um and security for the residents and knowing what direction we're going and what we're actually thinking so probably the biggest topic of conversation has occurred over the idea of public benefit what that means what it means to you what it means to us uh and you know even in our discussion there were different ideas and it was a very good discussion but Dan if you don't mind um both Jim Bowen and um Jim Dunlap did a lot of work on the um 4H hour work session on that and I'm wondering if you would mind if I turned it over to one gym and the other to start the conversation no actually that was going to be my recommendation okay well good morning everyone and thank you I'll start off that's okay Jim sure um as I get to to watch from a distance for quite a while and see The Angst that is around when people are trying to do the right thing um they're growing into the moment that they want to be aligned with the town they want to be good neighbors good partners long-term investors um you could you could see the the um confusion they were trying to sort out in their minds about how do I make my best case without it looking like a case for me and the the town was indicating that all almost to the term and I and I know this won't stay long term but the term of trade-offs is the way that statistical people and mathematical people think about this and it's much much more sincere authentic and deliberate purposeful than that and therefore the guidance that we need to give in my mind was guard rails versus prescriptive Lanes prescriptive this than that whatever so I took a stab um both in my LPA application and then with with the nas group to say I wonder if we could do an out line because my belief my history is that if you want to get somebody's opinion give them yours and all of a sudden you get a lot of feedback and I don't mind doing that um because I have rationale and perspective around why I do what I do and I think those conversations are healthy and very productive so my thought process was to organize my Approach in three ways um with the understanding that I don't think this is something that staff should be required to be involved in other than a point I'll talk about here in a minute um because their role of trying to guess uh and I heard the council talk about this during your little debate on this about what three of you out of five of you may want it isn't fair it isn't productive and they frankly don't set policy and they don't set degrees of um of capabilities of the of the applicants to offset uh variances and other things they're asking for they go by the book they should go by the book we depend on Rellis to not get how to not get in trouble and to stay in those lanes and I think this one was just a bridge too far so when I wrote my document it was to keep in mind where staff would be involved or not and that starts at the beginning of my document I believe as most things in life and you you will go through this with your strategic plan there's got to be a set of guiding principles that generally we agree on are the are the ability to knock at the door and get it answered and those should be um fairly broad but but also fairly clear and you can see the three that I put down to start the document which I think everybody has said in one way shape reform that if it's going to be a public benefit it ought to be a public benefit accessible to a benefit of all the other thing is it's not a moment in time it's not a tradeoff it's not a condition of it's a commitment you make on behalf of the town and the respect you have for our needs and the investment that you're about to make and the willingness you want the town to do to support the alternatives to what you would normally be doing without this trade-off if you will and that's why I think it needed to be unique um and as we talked about many times the island being s miles long may as well be 70 mil long there's many many many little individual communities throughout the island that need and have different needs need to be addressed and the more local you can make it the more authentic and sincere it becomes so I put unique in its nature or physical location something special um that we wouldn't have but for this particular applicant coming in and there may be a moment in time where physical location needs something that others don't we can all talk about that and the last thing was long-term or Perpetual um it and those are different things I think long-term commitments can be Financial over a 10e period of time where they're underwriting a particular activity the town there's lots of ideas around that a Perpetual is all the things you would think it would be which is to donate or or provide or or deed to and all the things are in my document that's where I think staff's role ISS to say did they come through the door did they knock the right way did they get did we get it answered and could they meet these questions and if that's the case in my mind we can then allow them to come in and make the bigger case for what they think they uh to offer the town in the form of public benefit I'll Bree through the next two categories real quickly I then tried to put some meat on the bones around categories these are these are completely um of my selection there isn't anything that's that's hardwired or hard fast in here other than I think people think in categories and when I study I organize my thoughts around different buckets and therefore I can repeat in those categories or nicely compare other uh like kind offers within similar categories so you see those that I have in the document and then it gets down to a little bit of what you heard us talk about I think with Neptune yesterday and I think Seagate for sure and that is so how big is this and how do you describe how big it is and what sort of an impact does it have and I include in that because of my background what's the financial impact to the town that should be granular it should be perpetual and it's also in my mind projectable this isn't a mystery around the people that are going to work there the impact fees are going to pay the taxes they both all the categories we talk about and they're also like values meaning that if they're going to donate um pieces of property parks parking Etc the math around that can be can be fairly well figured out and therefore the financial impact again in my mind should be commenced with amount of degree of exceptions and Alternatives they're asking us to have I think that's a and I should close with this that in particular is the responsibility of the applicant to create their compelling case present to us and um and passionately uh represent why they believe this has the impact on the town that they're representing it does um obviously the and I teered those because some of the smaller projects um in my mind in invol themselves and I believe Financial blight and the removal of is a uh public benefit too so by fixing something small and getting back on the tax rols and hiring people and providing service to the community that's a public benefit in my mind and should be seen that that's why I did the two tier it's not going to Happ have the impact some of the larger ones because they can't but it's just important in aggregate to have as many of those as we could that's the thought around my document that was the starting point for the LPA conversation and I'll let Jim add his components to it which were very complimentary in my mind to what we went through I'll close with one final thing we further [Music] granulizer for the moment and not all public benefits have equal value even when there's not a financial impact to it and I think the LPA took a good a good stab at that and created something somatically at this point that makes some sense so with that I'll I'll stop Jim yeah I guess um my Approach was uh within the guard rails that uh Jim mentioned and that was you know as we analyze these projects uh and there are requests for height dens uh increased F whatever the request for a deviation is would um fall between a public benefit a special benefit and an amenity and that um as you slide in there a public benefit would be Perpetual in nature it would be special it would be something very unique um a special benefit would be something that um both the developer and the town benefit from and so it's sort of middle of the road an amenity then would be just something that would be nice to have doesn't necessarily carry any weight financially uh but it would be um something that we would like to see in our community so how do we apply that sliding scale between those uh uh guard rails and I think that's the direction that I was hoping that Council would give us today is you know what is more important or what slides towards uh a public benefit from a special benefit and as Jim said it is sort of unique based on where you are in the island so I know that there's some feeling that a restaurant is special if it's on the south end but may not be as special as it is up here um and I think we did at our meeting um there was a consensus that um these are policy decisions and therefore the staff should be given some direction because they're going in blind and you know they shouldn't necessarily be negotiating with a developer on what is a public benefit but um I think one keynote part of it is that I think we had a strong feeling public benefit needed to be Perpetual in nature and if I if I could just give you some examples so um a special benefit is the pool at Margaritaville it is special because it's part of the development developer enjoys the benefits of that but the public has access to it for a price for a cost they can still participate in it it's a special benefit uh the amenity an amenity is obvious it's the it's the restaurant at Seagate it's the restaurants that are proposed here and there um and a and a public benefit yesterday I'll you know we in public so we'll talk about it a public benefit clearly yesterday um in the in the case of the Neptune uh the public benefit and they did an excellent job of outlining that economic element which nobody had done before um but a public benefit was in fact the parking space and the open space on uh on delmare uh there is financial benefit to the town its imp perpetuity its access um it was very clearly a public benefit and so at least having those categories and outlining this as both of the gyms have done um gave us a a clear way to think about it and took away a bit of the subjective nature of you know what is this how is this um the unique element that both um Jim D and Jim B have have talked about adds to the nature and the character of the different areas of the island so you know a unique benefit to the south end of the island clearly is a restaurant or maybe it's replacing the TIY bar at the Outrigger or whatever that's a unique benefit for that area that that part of the the community wants so you know that's kind of where we were you know I I will have to tell you that I discounted tremendously the financial element it's only because I don't think that way I mean I'm a business person but I do not think that way um and yet yesterday and Frankie you were really helpful adding that uh you gave Patrick a little note about the parking and what Revenue that would contribute to the town and especially when you think though Dan you have done a y job of getting us money and and helping us kind of move through these these hurricanes and whatnot um the whole town has the Town Council has um but at some point in time that ends and we have to stand on our own two feet and how do we do that and so this was a real light bulb to me and I appreciated that conversation so much because I discounted it I just went H okay the financial what we really need to think about is the policy well what we really need to do is be grown-ups and live in the real world and the real world is how are we going to pay for our house which is the town of Fort Meers Beach how are we going to manage that and um anyway so I feel like we made a stab at it um but what we really want to do is is hear from you guys about how we want to move forward with this I think another critical element was not to put Sarah and Judith and Jason and everybody else in community develop in that position of trying to decipher what that policy decision is that the council will make as to what public benefit is and then just one last item that was I've heard a couple of people say how how do we have how do we create a formula uh you get another foot of height for a parking space I don't think that's I don't think that that is part well it was certainly wasn't part of what we talked about this is more of a General discussion and a general policy because it's going to be different on every project we look at and every situation that we have um and I'll just tell you Don suth also was a big contributor to that conversation I don't know if he has anything to add to what Jim and Jim have contributed here today do you Don no I I'm thinking about changing my name to Jim yeah you definitely should no nothing to add they did a great job they they convey more well thank you you know um Madam chair I think you guys did an excellent job of of I think capsizing what has been discussed over the last two years on what constitutes a public benefit especi I like I like how you broke it out where I've always struggled is when you look at a public benefit how does it relate to as as I believe it was Jim you guys have said is when you're talking about intensity density and height which one when you consider public benefit a public benefit when you're looking at height does does adding a height story two three stories or whatever to a building does it have an adverse effect on the entire Island as a whole does density if you're double or tripling your density does that have an adverse effect on the quality of life for the residents that live here so I I'm trying to figure out how we can use those three big buckets whether it's height density and intensity and how can you relate that to a public benefit because if to me if you're double triplink density you you're you're creating more of a detriment to the quality of life for the island people and the visitors than someone that may be adding a story or two so how do you relate public benefit to that so if if I get three stories just use an example you get three stories and you have to provide a public park we'll say is it the same public benefit as doubling or tripling density and providing a park am I making sense so because you're adding to the infastructure issues you're adding to the traffic problems that is our number one complaint we all get so is it possible to somehow Link in the intensity if you're massing something and you're adding the density to that but you're staying at we'll just use the three stories above flood even though you're staying within the height restrictions because you're increasing everything it's still a detriment to the quality of life and and how does that public benefit relate and is it equal I don't know that in my opinion I don't know that it would be equal I don't so you say it's a detriment but every small business owner wants more density because there's more going to be more people and you're going to be keeping money on the island so I I don't know I I that's a dangerous word saying it's a detriment that when you add density if you're saying that then if you have a project that by right they could build 300 something units and they're only going to put half that in then that in the way you're saying that that should be a super duper benefit right well again I think Scott if you took your small business hat off and put the resident hat on you you would have you would have a different view of that right I'm a small business owner too so obviously more people on the island means my business is going to do better but if I can't if if my business if we'll just use mine as example right if you can't go anywhere on the island absolutely so so then if if that's if that's your argument then but if if somebody comes in just wants height and is actually decreasing their allowable density that that to you should be a super duper benefit I didn't say a super duper I said it should be to do I think it's a benefit by decreasing density absolutely okay because is there anyone up here that hasn't gotten the same emails that I've gotten that traffic is the number one concern abut and always has been is it safe to say that increasing density increases traffic right so if you have a project that actually de that decreases the possible density then I think they should be rewarded well Dan can I tonight can I say something it is going to shock you okay you ready I don't think anything shocks me you know Patrick said something yesterday and I agree with him I don't know how you draw a line between density and traffic correlation a correlation so um my family came here in 1972 and I was in high school from 1976 to 1979 in 1976 on Fort Meers beach it could Take You 3 hours to travel a stero Boulevard now just think countywide how many people were here in 1976 versus how many people and I'm going to say we're here in 2022 because there's been a little bit of an exodus yeah um but even let's just talk about that Exodus as of today there are less people less condo dwellers less tourists less everything on Fort Meyers Beach right now now and yesterday when I left the LPA meeting it took me 48 minutes to get off the island from here sure so I don't know you know but we don't have any cut through issue at all we of course we do but we also what I don't know that we can um that we can continue to link those two things together because of the nature of our community and I just don't know that it I don't know that it's real I don't know that it's real it always has been we've always talked that way but in the reality of it last night I was thinking about it and I was just thinking about what what my life looked like as a 16-year-old with a new driver's license in my 1964 Thunderbird driving down Fort Meyers Beach and and it was like it is now it was like it is and I think that's a fair argument but then if you're G to do that then you got to relate it across the board so if I had a two-bedroom one B Cottage and now I've built back a four-bedroom four Bath House in the same rental pool that's not going to have any impact on the infrastructure because we've always had infrastructure problems sure no I think I mean that's the same argument if you're going to use traffic and density then you got to use that same argument with intensity and infrastructure I I think we need to separate traffic from uh traffic from the impact on infrastructure of water sewer U Public Safety and the whatnot I think we need to because the the traffic issue of Fort Meyers Beach is just um uh it's it's just an anomaly it doesn't I don't think it makes sense to anybody and when I read traffic reports from developers that come forward to us uh to be truthful I pass right over them because they all say the same they all say the same thing and they have for 30 years I have for 30 years so I I'm sorry to I just wanted to throw that at you no and and my intent is not to to maybe I worded it wrong when I said detriment does one have more of an impact on the island than the other in my mind I think it does I think density does over over Fair stat and and if someone's coming in and asking for height and density and intensity how do you relate that to and I think maybe that's where you were going Jim with the tears it is right totally um exactly but but you know the whole the whole purpose of these development agreements was to how do we allow projects to get going right and when you look at as we talked about at the last M&P meeting when you're looking at a small development versus a larger development if a smaller development we'll just use one that's already been approved um the uh the Meer side they had an increase in height they had an massive increase in intensity and intens and density they then technically should have been in the higher tier that's right but they don't have the ability to meet that higher tier so therefore their project is Dead on Arrival based on what was discussed with the tiers right but it wasn't and I guess that's what we're trying to that's where I'm trying to figure out how can you relate if you're asking for the trifecta but you don't have the ability because you're a small business or you're a small parcel of land to meet what we're potentially talking about doing how do you balance that but but I think using myerside for an example um and I don't have the history you guys do so the thought process I have around a site like that this asking for that Trifecta of of deviations um we don't want to limit creativity of what they're willing to step up offer invest in provide for all the things that have nothing to do with their physical location site or service they offer but the other opportunities they have by being a viable economic um participant in our Island we want some of that shared and to find a way to come make a compelling argument that I can't do it on my site yet still I need all these things to make the model work then if the model's going to work for you make the model work for us too and you bring those recommendations to us and make a compelling argument I think the flexibility that we're trying to create is to not box oursel into if they can't there then they shouldn't at all that is absolutely not right so many other needs we have that can be Financial volunteer participation other type of things expertise they're all in there that they should be compelled to represent independently of our stimulation other than say we expect to have the conversation if I could one thing that I heard yesterday which I think there's actually two parts one thing that we talked about just as the LPA was that the criteria would be the same whether it was a development agreement or a CPD so we didn't want to have a distinction between those as far as special or public benefit or amenity we felt like they were the same it was just two different paths that a developer could go down one issue very separate from everything that we've been talking about but I wanted it clear but the second one was actually the way that they approached us yesterday Patrick specifically when he talked about the basket of benefits and he was very understanding that some people would view his contribution to the delmare access as View Corridor or not it's found right away most of it but it's in enhanced by what they're willing to do and he recognized that maybe that wouldn't have the same value as bringing his own view of corridor yet it is something that is an enhancement and a benefit to the town and then we go back to the creativity and he actually the list of benefits that they put in the package they came forward and said we understand you'd like to see commitments of what we will step up to here's a supplement to it and it included things that we have haven't heard since Margaritaville like a discount for residents for goods and services there that wasn't part of their their package probably should have been but my point is really he was recognizing and I think what we should should maybe do is ensure that staff can say there are these public benefits there are these special benefits there are these amenities or what have you maybe they don't even talk about those but here are the different classes that they're doing and then bring it to LPA and Council to say and the overall package as opposed to view corridor for height which is kind of the way it's been approached up until now mostly because it's written that way in our code right just a little note but but we all know that essential Services is an important thing on this island and that's not something that's addressed in in so my my main point around this is that while not every project will have the land mass to be able to provide certain benefits they could all be creative and provide spot benefits that may be really helpful depending on where they are and their unique nature in the project yeah I think we can all agree that you know trying to quantify you know in our packet there's other towns other jurisdictions that actually have a point scale it I think we should all agree that that's just not going to fly here the the Delta of where the project is what what part of the island is on the beach is on the Back Bay it's it's just NE you're never going to be able to figure out what that Delta is and quantify it I I just as Jim said I think you're just boxing yourself in so if we can just agree to hey there's just no it's not going to happen here I think we I agree with you Scott and I think you know I often well right after the hurricane on the LPA we talked a lot about seed Gypsy and and what the limitations on that proper proper would be and how how could uh a property like that compete with a property like the Neptune for example or anything else for that matter um and and I agree there isn't I don't know how we come up with a formula however is as this whole notion of public benefits has sort of expanded in categories and the Neptune did an excellent job of it yesterday they really did an excellent job of their presentation but uh it isn't it isn't just about the property that we're talking about it's about the school it's about the fire district it's about the sidewalks it's about storm water it's about all the things that this community needs to thrive and how does that project contribute to that overall thriving of Fort Meers Beach yeah I think one of the I haven't had a chance to watch the meeting from yesterday yet but I think one of good well I I I'm sure I'll watch it at some point here the next day or two but you know you use margarit as an example you look at that parking lot to me that's a Perpetual tangible absolutely economic stimulus year after year that we didn't have before that can be used for the basket that you're saying to me those are I wouldn't use super duper or whatever word use but I mean but that is that is a true tangible public benefit that long after we're all gone and next generation is here that will still be there that they can benefit from so seeing things like that I think that's creative thinking I think that gives something back to the town that really truly has an economic impact numbers can be numbers you can make numbers any way you want for or against but that is a number that you can really look at year after year and say we know this parking lot is going to generate this much money we just know it based on averages and the numbers don't lie so to me that's more important that a park that somebody may or may not use you know a linear Park the town that does not own that people may or may not use because it goes through a development so let me ask you this instead of a park would one consider a beach bar more important because there are a lot of people that love Fort Meers Beach because it it had the beach bar it had the Outrigger it had you know it it it had places that actually created memories yeah I've tried to say it for as long as anybody's been listening that Fort Myers Beach as long as I've been paying attention and from people that I've talked to that I've been here for decades it's always been an inclusive Island so a public benefit is how do you preserve that vision of what the island has been for decades do you so do you look at a beach bar let me ask you this uh Madam chair would you look at a beach bar as public benefit special benefit or amenity or does it depend I look at it as an amenity okay I look at it as an amenity because um uh it is something that people are I mean let's just say you're not a drinker right uh but you can hit but you don't necessarily have to drink you you toes in sand absolutely absolutely I still look at it as as an amenity and I think that was the consensus from us as we discussed it bars restaurants those things it's an amenity that that Don are you trying to chirp in yeah okay go ahead no no no please I'm you go ahead I I'm just going to say that the the developer gets or the the property owner gets a benefit of those right I mean they're going to put beach bars and they're going to put restaurants in because there's an economic benefit to them it makes their deal or it makes their their project more viable so I'm not saying it's not an intangible as as Amia mentioned amenity uh and certainly we all want those things drinkers are not I mean we still you know love to sit and listen to music and you know have one beer versus 17 or something but the point is uh I think that the developers going to try to put those in uh for their economic benefit as well so I I just don't know I think the big kind of the elephant in the room for me is but what are we willing to give for that right like how how much will you sort of sell the soul of Port Meers Beach right to to get something like that and that that's that's probably the the biggest question for me is you know there you're right like the parking lot Margaritaville things like that that are in perpetuity like I I think an expectation not a hey I'm giving you this so can I get another you know 10 stories or you know this is my project this is where it works um everybody knows we have a every development has a a break point or a line and I think generally speaking for the B of Fort Myers Beach people should be looking for that and if that's that happens to be 10 stories or 12 or six I mean we've got to find that and figure it out but I mean there's there's certain degrees of the development um Can can prosper from without U you know maybe without the experience the thing I would add to your amenity description and it's a distinction with the difference for me is it's an amenity for the developer no doubt no challenge where they connect in the presentation is and it's open to all it's now available as part of the the neighborhood and that needs to happen if they want credit or include in the criteria that we're doing something inclusive so I just want on on the one project seate you know the charging membership fee or giving access to a certain um number of people certain select people who can afford that is not a you know public benefit in fact I don't even think it's an amenity to some exent it's a club right yep yep agreed agreed so you know the elephant in the room is I think you all have probably read David's uh Lee's um email outlining they did a they did a poll and what is the tolerance of the people who actually um and and I thought that it was a really good layout of what would people tolerate what do people think about it you know when we said early on that we would not we were going to abide by the comp plan and the Land Development code and that was it and um and that was it and so I think the expect ation of people on Fort Meers Beach was we're going to still be a little small town but the reality of it is we are not that's the reality and though I may uh go down kicking and dragging and screaming about that we're not going to be we're just not going to be um so um what are we willing to tolerate and I think aside from what we're willing to tolerate I think it's also going to be very important for for us to vocalize to our community that this is not um widespread uh that because we approved or because you all are in step one of approving Seagate so let's say that it gets approved that doesn't mean that everywhere on Fort Meers Beach there are going to be 17-story buildings it just does not mean that but I think that at some point in time whether it's through your strategic plan or uh or whatever I have another idea that it's you know is is interesting that I want to talk about outside of here um I think that we need to go about identifying what we expect this community to look like what do we think it's going to look like and you know Dan if you remember months and months ago remember that big map I had up on the wall uh and I I had Dan over to dinner and we were talking about uh you know what will happen on this island what where do you identify things changing and it isn't a whole lot it's enough to impact what fort Meers Beach looks like or will look like 5 10 years from now but it's not enough to change the soul of our community and I think that's really important for people to know and for us to talk about and I think I needed to your point I think it's pretty spelled out in the comp plan already as far as if you look at the downtown district the Red Coconut Village Santini and I think there's one other one in there it actually talks about the potential to increase height based on just those zones because they're in an area that has enough size land or is in a downtown district that it could be expected based on public benefit give back so that already spells it out whether you want to call them nodes or special zones so I mean that's there I think to point it it because we're talking about Seagate if Seagate was being proposed next to to 7-Eleven or next to where the Baptist Church where the it wouldn't even have got it wouldn't even have got past Tom staff right so the fact that it was within the zone that the comp plan and Land Development code say well we can look at giving potential height increases because you're in this Zone it doesn't specify and I I'm not a fan of specifying what is our tolerance I think our tolerance should be driven by public input what they're asking for and what they're giving and and I think that that process works and that is what we all voted on we all voted on following that process and if we continue to do that I think it's very dangerous to say what we could tolerate what we're seeing is the the residents and the public are telling us what they could tolerate you you you've seen a shift from right after the storm of absolutely nothing over two stories or three stories to people now saying well we could tolerate it if this right I think if you start saying in a forum like this that we could tolerate at six or 10 that's going to be now the starting point no but I mean when I yes when I said tolerate I mean exactly what you're saying that we we are we are going to tolerate some changes to our Island we're going to we're going to look at these projects with an open mind and with some uh flexibility we're going to do that well and I think you you've already seen it in some of the projects that are you know whether it be the whale whether it be Myers side whether it be your approval yesterday of what was proposed you're seeing that there's a willingness for people to look at things outside of whatever is in the confines of that based on where it's at but I think this discussion is more around how do you determine exactly what is what is a basis point I think Jim has used that word several times what is the basis point of what is expected if you're going to come in and ask for something out what is expected before you even walk through the door now it should be up to the developer to to decipher what we come out of this meeting with today to say I think I can provide that or I think I can provide that or I think I can provide that and this is how and then let them make their pitch let them make their case and depending on who's sitting up at the dis at that time whether it's the LPA or the council will then weigh that in based on their location what they're asking for I don't think the people of the island are unrealistic I I think that they understand you are going to have some that are you know draw a hard Line in the Sand and everything and you're going to have some that say let them build everything it's the 75% that are in the middle of that that I think that you have to try to M to try to to do the best you can to to policy make policy on and I think we've got a good start here I just don't know how we drill it down to add to it to me I think a thing that we should be re looking at with what we've dealt with over the last two years is resiliency I think a public benefit is how do you come to the table with resiliency and I know people get tired of hearing me say the Coastal Construction Wall but call it an armor wall call it whatever you want on my way back yesterday I purposely stopped for a day at at Clear Water to just walk and see what that thing looked like and talk to some of the Public Works people and and and you wouldn't even know what it is it's a 15t wide curvy wall that goes way down in the ground it's it's anchored back and if you you look at it and when you you wouldn't even tell that they had a hurricane you wouldn't even tell it's I mean a little bit of sand that they cleaned up and a couple of pieces that have broke off but something like that is that something that if a developer came in and said hey we'll do our section we know that maybe we're looking at trying to do something in the areas that are hardest hit we'll include that in our plan super duper benefit you know what I mean d benit is something agree with that I think the other thing um I think we're starting to realize this but take uh I hate to use my hotel as an example all the time but so we we had a very big Courtyard where all our guests spent time where either laid out or or sat in the shade or or just visited now when we're looking at rebuilding all of a sudden that that space is gone that will now be parking so where where do where do I put those people the only PL only logical place is another floor on top so I think we have to realize that the days of the open courtyard are gone that's right so we we need to be a little bit lenient to let let these guys at least have another area or floor you know one one thing I I did like about EC was they had that everything upstairs they had their offices they had and that that wasn't a huge huge ask but I I liked how they had the clubhouse up there and they needed that because the again we can't have that on the ground anymore well I I think a lot of people are starting to go to that concept of moving stuff from the ground to the roof whether it's a restaurant whether it's a a bar that's open to the public whether it's you know meeting spaces you get them higher off the ground the less chance you're going to have to rebuild those right and and some are dedicating elevators just specifically for that amenity but I I agree I mean but where's that fine line between okay I have to move all my cars up so I need another floor when does that not turn into four or five more floors and four or five times more rooms you know what I mean that's the part that you have to weigh out through the public benefits and and go ahead Jane I'm sorry oh no I'm just putting my name in after oh I'm I'm done go Jan well one of the problems I'm having with is you know we understand everybody um you know wants to rebuild what they have and expand and all that kind of thing but my problem is is they're creating their own height by we know we have to raise for parking and all that kind of stuff and that that's not an issue for me but what where it goes from for example can we use something you got you still voting on I wouldn't okay so for example increasing the size of units increasing the size of units if your units were very small before and now they're 4,000 square F feet where is the limit of what they can expand each individual unit before you say enough is enough you could fit the same amount of units in 10 floors as opposed to 20 floors and still have very reasonable accommodations that are not I mean I I'm just saying what has sold on the market on the island hasn't been 4,000 foot everything so I mean none of these people are offering one bedrooms two bedrooms they're all huge and where's our market for who comes in the winter are a couple and their grandkids come for Christmas and Easter and you know so we're going to have all these huge places with two people in them and maybe maybe we'll have a whole different Market where you know four couples come every time which is going to increase our intensity and density of of everything but my point is at what point is big enough that we have that we don't have to allow the height you can say Jane we don't have to allow the height ever I know but my point is is they're creating their own height because now they can have 4,000 because that's their plan yeah requ right but that we have to somehow find a way to handle that because they knew what they had when they bought it so this is no big surprise that they knew what they could put back and now they're asking for you know 10 times that so I think you and I will probably always fundamentally disagree on that I don't think that's any of our business just like parking I don't think it's any of our business either um you make your own business decision you put your money at risk you respond to the market you make your case and what we're trying to I believe represent is and in addition to what you need to do which we understand financially mathematically come talk to us about our Island come talk to us being a partner being a friend being a neighbor how does that look with the things that you represent you're willing to do and as a developer you're going to do things based on a lot of math but in the end there's got to have a heart Comm in there's got to get a perspective about being part of what we always are want to become and want to stay and you have to make your case to us for that if you want exceptions to what you can do just mathematically that's the balance that the elected officials I believe have to do and the deeper we get into design or those kind of other criteria we're not only not qualified to do it there are property rights and other things that we violate playing in that those edges that we don't want the town to have to defend um because we think we can so we just have a disagreement on that well I'm just saying we have a house that can have you know so many floors over parking so here's your box why don't we have a box for commercial do yes we do yeah we do I I yeah I mean I don't disagree with Jim it's not really our business I think what Jame's saying is there is a solution here it's not as if oh my gosh my project doesn't work I pay too much for the land to make this financially viable everybody knows what they did when they bought the land and everybody knows what they can they can do so I don't disagree with Jan I think you know as a an owner of 1300t condos that you know if I had aund of them they would rent January February March and April every year um I think there's a market for smaller units and I don't think you need 3,000 square fet on the flip side in my mind I think I don't care if it's three or 4,000 square F feet if it's only two people it's still only too far right so but I do think that we have the we do have the um by by default if we limit height you're not going to if you want more units you're not going to be able to have you know 3,000 foot units you're going to have to have 2,000 foot or 1500 or or maybe some like most of our Island I think is more like probably 8 to 1200 fet I think the breakdown in the it for me the more I've looked into it the more I I agree with Jim and and everyone else that it's not our job to design a project right it's not our job to get involved with you know if you're going to put a business up and you don't want to have any parking that you're taking the risk right it's it's it's your money but and I try to stay away from that you know you know what the guidelines are you know what what we're going through today is is something that you're going to need if you're going to ask for more where I see a breakdown in the process is when you our process allows what's happening right now and what I mean by that is if you could say have we'll use 150 units as a as an example and you convert that to to Hotel units there's a multiplier that you can go through to get that right now you look at that and that's the max that someone could do by right now if you take those units and you put them into a Condo building and you make them 4,000 square feet our process does not say because you now have four bedrooms that that is increasing any density it is it's like adding three more hotel rooms if you think about it yes we could say are they always going to be full I don't know maybe there's only two people there 50% of the year but what if there are are eight people staying in that now you have four times more people but it's still considered one unit you know what I mean and I think that's a breakdown in our code and I think that's a breakdown in our process I don't I'm looking out at Sarah to see if she's she's not nodding her head she's playing good poker over there she she's got no tells but I to me I think that's a process thing that we could work through the LPA and and the coun to figure out to how do you she has a yeah go ahead I was just going to add I don't know if this is on but the in a separate subject we have talked about impact fees um and the size should be captured under impact fees the overall square footage in when when and if we get that yes I yes I mean the a lot of these discussions I think would would be much easier to have if we had that in place right I mean if we we wouldn't have to be discussing they they know the bigger they go the more the impact Fe is going to be that they're going to what's the delay with that they said it was going to take some time but I mean I don't know if Sarah has some more information on that but the impact vies is really just to cover the town's costs of the development so that the town is not paying to help the developer build so additional costs that are standard for a development not like a special benefit above and beyond so we're talking about sewer connection making the water connection whatever the town determines you know the the Public Works determines that they need need um those kinds of direct impacts um so it's a separate conversation but I did want to add that in calculating impact fees the size of the structure is taken into no and I get that and and through all that they're going to have to meet the requirements to to meet their infrastructure needs I get that but could a public benefit be how do you go above and beyond that how do you go above and beyond what is just going to be required to maintain your water or maintain your water pressure or maintain your runoff and and now the entire public we can we can use an impact fee I I've tried to talk to the attorneys about this to to see if there's a way to do it um I don't know exact I'm legally we don't have a microphone I have AIC well you didn't want to talk I talk a lot yesterday you don't think you're G to get off that easy um no I think what you have to do is create a fund uh where there can be a contribution made um by the uh property owner developer towards that fund which is towards the greater good for the public for example uh a parking garage I'm not saying that that is in your cards however that is one that is typically done and then there's a contribution made towards into that fund for a future parking garage which benefits the entire community and see I think that to me is is a good public benefit because that's something that doesn't tie this Council or future councils to to well this now we got to go through this entire process again because it's 10 years later and you know now we have no buildable space left and there are no Parks available but we we need more pipes or we need to redo a side streets or we need to do something like that so I I use the example of a public parking garage however there's other things and those quote other things are generally found in a community strategic plan which I know your town manager is diligently working on um on having that created and then that gives the property owner developer an idea of what to Aspire to to Aspire to and then again creating a fund uh for a future purchase or future acquisition to to actually make that um strategic plan item reality yeah yeah but how do you make it so open-ended so that you use parking garage but let's let's use something that's I think land acquisition you know if if there was something that the town could purchase she's waving her hand brought her into the into the fry welcome Sarah good morning I apologize for being late um so I wanted to let you know that um one option also is to create plans um like if you have a street skate plan if you have a um you know different types of plans put in place and you know you have the intent to do those you can create funds for those that go specifically into those funds and then you you you're able to do that more easily because you have a goal you know what that goal is it's something that's going to happen you have a time you have money going into it um so one really good way to do that is to come up with like what you need what you want you know if that's a Parks plan like a parks and wreck plan what about a coastal what about a seaw wall Coastal protection system a resiliency plan so so if you if you come up with a plan and you have uh a proposed amount that you need to get to and maybe there's a certain part of Community that's going to be potentially you know particularly impacted by it you can set up a way to make sure that you're getting funds into that so that you can get it done yeah I mean you just look at just there a resilience plan I know it was talked about by Council Woodson you know seaw walls right seaw walls alone if if if that's a resiliency FL and you can use that or dredging the canals that's something that the entire Island can benefit from well and and it really helps because if you've done the planning first then you know exactly how much you need you know what permits you're going to have to get for example if you're going to do seaw walls you know you want to make sure that you get it all cleared with d first and then you're ready to run um you you can kind of set it up a little bit better because you've man you've you've managed that so can you create a plan let's say it's the resiliency plan even though you haven't gone through the D because there's a lot of things that could fall into that you know it could be seaw walls it could be Canal dredging it could be you know uh dry blood proof yeah veget it could be a lot of things in that bu Transportation Systems yeah something I mean is that all something that could go in before you had to go through the D process or yeah certainly you could do all the planning in advance um so setting up I mean the first step is to decide what it is that you're trying to do you know what your goal is and then to write that plan come up with all the components you know it would be a back and forth process between LPA Town Council you know whoever is going to be involved until you got to the plan that you really want similar to a comp plan but you know it could be on a smaller scale or a more specific scale should be part of the strategic planning process getting getting back to what you know Jane brought up that there are ordinances and approaches uh based on a bedroom formula for contributions to schools and parks and things that you can relate to and that way the impact of a larger unit would carry a bigger Financial contribution to the town like that I like that too but one thing you got to remember and I I see your point mayor that when you have a four unit you're going to have potentially four couples but I you have to remember that's only going to happen currently around Christmas probably shrimp fest the rest of the time I I just don't I you know been doing this a long time I just don't see the numbers where that unit's going to have four couples every week that's right to say nobody has numbers for what the next 10 years are going be and we and we don't but I I can assure you that in August it's not going to be packed but the point is these 4,000 foot units are now going to cost a whole lot more than the two-bedroom units that you've been renting so it's going to take a couple couples to make the rent I'm telling you the the the metrics the one-bedrooms make make the most money per person I mean it just does they rent more they they get a higher rate so could we hear from uh council member King do you have anything on this well not specifically dealing with that um these meetings frustrate me as a former facilitator because I want to know where let's discuss it what have we solved here move on and I don't get that I get everything from everybody oh and this just popped into my head but speaking of that this just popped into my head uh watching your meeting yesterday uh I thought there was um it was excellent um I see with Jim Bowen's um publiced parking spaces I'd like to build onto that just uh I think we saw that with pink shell when they talked about pumping out uh the town boat um is that something that can be put in along those lines by someone else as well that saves the town money and time um I noticed yesterday with the Neptune that they were willing to in their parking area give up uh folks because I think John talked about it at Diamond Head with the last couple storms moving it to Higher Ground if it's available can we put then Town vehicles in there and does that save that will save the town money in time uh along those kind of lines I would like to see something a little more around that as well as a as a public benefit I think and with that I will let Jim talk whichever Jim would like to talk or maybe a John since there's only two of us J does you have anything to add well um yeah and uh ties into something Anita was saying too and others that um in real you know in anything there's like you know Adam Smith invisible hand right the economics right that really steer things that's right and in the long run it's you have very limited ability to change that other than to steer it and I think um what we're talking about is we know the the island is not going to redevelop like it was it's going to be different and we have an ability right now to steer that direction but we probably wouldn't be able to change it because of the the economics or the invis Adam Smith's invisible hand is going to push a certain way that is is just going to have to happen in our free market Society so I I think our and it's a kind of a difficult challenge to Define these uh issues but what we're trying to do is is steer things to a vision that we have for the island inclusiveness maintain a character that's different than Clear Water St Pete Beach or other places you know Naples it we want to have a unique character but we can steer it but we're not going to be able to change what happen happens I don't think yep vice mayor you know me I'm so shy I've been just listening quietly here oh boy I have just a couple thoughts uh with respect to this issue uh this is a great discussion I I love what the LP's been wrestling with on this um I think uh a couple things I I love this concept I I I I'm glad we're in agreement that this is that a formulaic approach is not is not going to work in a practical sense I love this concept of of of giving guidelines to those who want to invest in our community as to what our priorities are and how you could you could help our community through a public benefit in return for additional whatever you're asking for uh not that you'll get it but at least you'll get have a guideline as to what we're looking for and I think Economic Development used by certainly most State entities is is to is to guide what the what the community is looking for whether it be high-paying manufacturing jobs up in the midwest which is usually what drove us in Indiana completely different down here but but it's but it's still a very useful tool so I would say if we have this wonderful guideline and we have the we have the an additional guideline it's a little firmer which is our LDC and our comp plan I think these we we we get this aggregate list of of guidelines which is great we give it to the developer they use their creativity to make a pitch and hopefully some of those items are symbiotic I mean we we talk sometimes that oh the developer going to make money off this well if they make money off something that's also a public benefit and benefits the people of our town it's a symbiotic benefit where we all win and and that's not a bad thing so but I think it ultimately comes down to uh when you when you have these proposals before us I mean these are we were elected we've appointed people the people who are appointed were appointed by people who are elected so this is a very Democratic process but at the same time at some point the voters would ask us to use our discernment it sort of comes down to what the what a former Supreme Court Justice once described as his definition of pornography and it's I know it when I see it and so so that's so well at some point as we weigh these projects individually Case by case I think we're going to get to that point I just have a couple kind of issues that I want to pause it to you I don't have complete answers but I I think they're worth chewing on and I'm I'm sure my friend Greg skas is watching we had a feverish exchange last night once again on on these issues respectful uh but do we want to think about right now we're we're finding projects that are sort of replacing what was there maybe have a different Vision but they're really replacing what's there but I think this concept of a the fear of a clear waterer concept that involves taking these smaller properties and aggregating them into one large big developments eliminating the the opportunities for Mom and Pops and that just creating a different environment here if somebody comes to us who's bought 13 properties and wants to build this massive development do we want to do we want to in our guidelines discourage that by saying okay you can do that and you can do what you can do by right but you know if you're going to come for additional height and and and density you know we're not we're not going to be real excited about that so that's a way to kind of uh uh address that concern about the Clear Water issue I don't think it's it's it's a threat right now but it could be 5 10 years from now I think another Dynamic again this is really helpful with the nonform formulaic approach is but I I also want to encourage those people who are putting their their Capital At Risk now the early entrance that we're seeing now first of all they're local we're very blessed by I don't think we realized how blessed we are by these by the fact that this capital local uh but but second of all they're putting their Capital At Risk at a time when Fort Meers beach has a degree of uncertainty and risk five I we all know who the players are who are sitting on the sidelines right now just to see what happens let it shake out well that's great for them but that doesn't do the island any good I'm thankful for those folks who are who you know they're taking a lot of bruises but they're putting their Capital At Risk now so we can move now so we don't have to wait five or 10 years now so I I don't know how we build that into the equation but it's certainly something we may want to suggest suggest as a guideline and the other Dynamic I think is important and I don't again non-formulaic approaches is is what will help this but is the third and fourth Hotel on the south end as valuable as the first and second in terms of public benefits same with restaurant so you've got this Dynamic which I'm thankful in your in your proposal Jim you didn't put a point system on because I think that's where it gets really challenging and also location on the island and lastly what I mentioned at the meeting and I I'd love to see this fit in and I'm not saying it's easy we saw it with Meers side how hard it was but if we're trying to get a a dock here or somebody who can write a script or a dentist or a physical therapist we need to build in at least demonstrate to the to the potential investor that if they can facilitate something like that it's not easy uh you know we would we would look favorably upon that and same with the the sort of the second level which would be the the hair salon barber the the the bank the the vet the florist you know whatever the need might be of the town at that time I'd like to at least give some of those suggestions and those May evolve over time and we can always update this list but we need to use this this great opportunity to try to incent what we're trying to do as a community where we want to go as a community so I'm I I I I'm rambling but one last thing on the on the on these parking lots that are that that get seated over to the town for Revenue I think that's great and all but I think we need to be a little careful with that because you know the town according to Matt Caldwell eventually a year or two from now financially we may be in very good shape for a lot of different reasons which I we don't have time to get into today and so maybe that parking lot might be better off as a park at some point with a nice view corridor with Native grasses that you can actually see the water from the road without any tall vegetation and and and that revenue from that parking lot becomes a little less significant and I don't know that we want to build in incentives over a park particularly 5 10 years from now when I think this island is going to be flourishing that that discourages that and incense more parking lots particularly if we do eventually bu a town parking lot or something to that effect or something off Island so anyways just some additional food for thought well it also takes away a heat island as well there you go yes you're right can I just I I think we need to uh clarify something uh Jim you're talking about guidelines I'm talking about expectations and to me those are very different yeah that's fair I I was I bet to use the word suggestions but expectations are good too I like that I like that even better does everybody agree with that I mean to me this is here here's where you should be this isn't just a it's not a suggestion we're expecting this is that fair J well it's fair it's fair except I think when you say expecting it we're expecting something in varying degrees in other words the guideline might be better in one part of the island and more symbiotic and another part but but I think that's fine I mean it's it's it's semantics again but I I think it's important and I I don't I don't have any problems with uh expectation we're expecting we're expecting people to be partners in our community that's what we're expecting we and and that's another piece I think I talked about during the LPA is what I'll describe as an orientation um when there's a project on someone's mind what's the best way to interact with our community in a preemptive way that suggest encourages that there's certain things that we value a lot that's right Dan and I talked at some length when he was proposing the um the uh multiples on the impact fees and um was was a great conversation put some math around the financial realities that we have to deal with when developments come in I mentioned to him that not only is I supportive of that but I think it has to be neither and versus neither or there's a whole bunch of other things that make our community work it's too easy for the people with resources to solve their problems with resources and then think that they are included embraced inoculated into what we believe and care about and that's not enough it should never be enough for us that's why we have both professional lives and in church lives we need the whole dynamic to make to make us what we're capable of being so where do we touch each other early on to set the they can do the math they don't need us at all to sit down and do the math for them that's going to come and be done and their Chuck will be written say by the way I'll give you this ahead of time and that's not impressive at all that just is respectful they're going to follow what we ask but then where do we go from there and whether there's a series of expectations around U meeting with a member of the LPA and Council instead of us being 12 people individ ually we have some teamwork together in that if that's allowed and and not illegal that we would attend in a dynamic way the town halls that we expect them to put on where there's a couple of us there and interacting to continue to coach and guide the conversation that is in my mind nebulous and ambiguous enough but clear enough for those that care to figure out and bring us a recommendation alternative this says I heard you isn't that the people you want to be around don't your best friends know what to say or do without you ever telling them they just figure it out because the relationship matters and I don't want to lose that piece all due respect to the approaches we can take with Sarah I don't lose that piece formula formulaically that we don't have those conversations so I need to just jump in um I understand where you're coming from with expectations but it concerns me a little bit it's the ew extractions um so so I just need a little bit of flexibility when ultimately when something is drafted that if I don't use the how about an aspiration so there's a great quote people will rise to the level of expectations you place upon them if we as a community say this is what we want this is what we want John just brought up a great point about about heat and and yesterday it came up in the conversation there was a woman named Susan here who gave public comment about the you heard that about that and it it was something I didn't think about but she was absolutely spot-on about lowering the temperature so here's what we aspire to and I don't know Andy I don't know how your strategic plan is working at this point but these are conversations that the community should be having and we should be having it so that the community knows that we're thinking about it and that we're affirming it and so that the developers know what we expect or what we aspire to thank you so you like Aspire better than expect fine was very inspiring yes the e word I think another public benefit is time frame some of these projects are coming in with 20 years and and even longer and I think that those that are coming in with we're going to tear down first quarter of next year and we're going to follow up with you know six months of permits and then we're going to start building that I I want to hear I don't want to hear we want 10 years 20 years so maybe we'll sell it to somebody else but we get the permits and we have I mean we get you want to hear that but with everything that's gone on in the last eight years of Our Lives that's you know we could get more red tied we could get another financial crisis ex but the point is if your plan is to wait 20 to 25 years I agree I agree with you but you can't you can't codify that though I mean you you can have the aspiration but you can't you can't make someone do something if interest rates are through the roof or there's a war going on or who knows I mean we again we can Aspire them to get going but you can't codify it I think you have to because otherwise we're going to be it's counterproductive to exactly what we're we're trying to accomplish now and that's to get people to build back I I want people building back building back now know I don't know that there's there's an appetite to Aspire to have someone come in 15 years from now when their CPD expires to ask for another five or 10 year extension we don't want that either like we've seen but what I'm saying is if if a war if a war happens next year and the interest rates go through the let me qualify that I'm saying that time frame is a benefit sure absolutely they can come in and say we're going to start in six months with tearing down and moving forward I'm okay with that then you know because they can't leave it empty we want something to happen now because we need it to happen now for this town okay can we hear from you Karen um I like your bracelet thank you which one is it from The Islander no no it's not actually find know where she got it put it in your inventory there you go this is actually got okay so couple of things and I'm going to be in very different directions I think we talk about these big developments but in reality there's only about four to five places on the island that any of this can even happen definitely the Red Coconut um it could happen up by um Moss Marine it can happen where the Windom is and happen at the old outbreaker so if you look at those places and we're talking about worried about all this height happening and everything else like Jim said the only other way that can happen is if a whole neighborhood would decide that they want to sell to a developer and instead of having 20 individual homes homes it now becomes a huge development like Gulf Colony like Gulf col Colony but the the chances of that happening right now or in the next 20 years or something like that are slim to none I mean people are looking at their own properties you look at everything for sale they're still all individual properties um you know and part of me says in this last election I think constituents spoke did you know if if people wanted to keep things the same then we would probably have Mr scasny sitting in that chair instead of Mr Safford but Safford won and that kind of set the direction about development they're mandating development is what's happening um we always hear from the same 50 to 75 people but you don't hear from the what I call the silent majority unless you're one-on-one with them that's when you hear about them but I also think we have to look big picture outside of the box what's not being addressed right now resilience is huge you know having keeping our Island safe from its own self from its environment the transportation we've got to start thinking outside of the box about transportation systems on This Island water waterways and canals they haven't been touched there is so much out there so much debris we don't have anything in our plans for any kind of canal cleanup Waterway cleanup dredging I mean these are things that are huge contributions to the whole island and some that we're not addressing in anything and how do we get these things addressed so that's just some of my opinions okay I think also an airport a a shuttle airport shuttle that um you know everybody say we're going to put in water taxes and that kind of stuff if we can actually offer a way for people to get here without everybody paying you know $60 to come from the airport that each way they may take it because otherwise it's you know cheaper to run a car float planes yeah so but you know hotels in the city have drop offs at each hotel and each Hotel contributes to getting that done and that's a coner plan that they have within their hotels that we don't have to pay for but they should be I mean then then you know the town people will join in on helping to pay that Services by using those Services also well not only the guests but the employees as well right exactly you heard they talk about that yesterday I think that um we should realize that I think this moment is magical in a whole lot of ways um the obvious being what it is but we are sitting here as collective bodies having a conversation about things we care about and there are people watching they're listening they're paying attention smart people don't need to be explained to they're picking up on what's happening right now just because we got together and talked about this all due respect to councelor king um this won't end up in a formula let's get this done I'm convinced there's not a will for that I don't think it's the right outcome but just the fervor behind and the amount of alignment that we have as a community to say you better come talk to us about this if you want to have our Arms Wide Open versus closed being suspicious on the math that you can provide I I just don't want to miss that because we've all lived enough places this doesn't happen anywhere else except where people people care about each other and ultimately our community to sit down and spend our time together to do this and I'm not looking for a formula uh I'm sorry if I made that uh part of it uh the facilitator in me has an agenda sees the agenda you all discuss this item where are we now let's bounce back on this because we have a tendency to roam around to a to c to D to F to X and that's that's what I'm trying to say is that I would like to I don't know where we are in this right now I see a lot of proposals that I'd like to see a little more fleshed out and that's what I wanted to see a couple of weeks ago but uh I I agree with a lot of these things that's why I added my two cents worth that was an X or something like that but Jim I appreciate the comment that uh this is a magical time because I think um I am seeing that more even though for me it is a time of tremendous fear and anxiety I get that and I want you go through that you and it's like for and and for so many people on the island I mean in my store day in and day out if you came in and sat there for a day you would listen to the sadness that people have and the anxiety that people have it's all personal not much of it at all has to be is townwide it's about what they're suffering and what they're enduring and so that and you heard Pat yesterday say it he's tired I mean we're all tired but I agree for us to be sitting here and having this conversation is telling people whomever they're going to be and we know them uh these are the things that are important to us these are the things that we aspire to these are the things that we wish you would bring to the table and that is that is very very important but I guess I'd ask Judith and and um what's your name Sarah uh what are you hearing from us and and whether or not Andy and Frankie have any questions that might help I mean in the next development agreement do you hear what's what's being said here and is is it helpful is it not helpful is there something that we need to uh push forward on I don't know what you're seeing with the thank you that's kind of what I'm I knew part of it is my attempt to take notes here so you can see what it is I'm I'm hearing so if I any of this is incorrect or please feel free to correct me um one of the things I heard of the sorry I can you make that bigger yeah that's we're all same I don't know well can can I add something before we before you answer that question because I heard from the vice mayor and I heard from you and you guys are saying the same thing how do there's only going to be four or five big developments but how if if these smaller Lots can't get developed then what's going to happen you're either going to be empty or they going to join up right so so let's why don't we get ahead of the curve and try to figure out what we can do to make get those smaller Lots developed is it is it the develop we thought it was the development agreement original part of agreement I I think we're all kind of saying the same thing but to uh councelor King's Point if we can come to agreement I don't know what the answer is there's a lot of smart people in this room square is another huge One Time Square is that's that's another issue but I I think we we owe it to the public that if if we're committed to you know rebuilding this island together and and focus on boutique hotels small businesses how do how do we help those those lots get sold get developed and get invested in Judith is so can I I I want to answer your point and then I I want to also answer um Anita's Point as well um one of the things I I heard you say at one point is that we want the the development agreement judged on the same criteria as the CPD which is we know what those criteria are but then that begs the question why have the development agreement if it's going to be the same I don't think that's what we said Judith I think what we said was that we want to talk about special benefits uh public benefits that those words should be interchangeable in a development agreement am I wrong okay yes that's right okay agree completely no that that's a helpful clarification yeah yeah but to to Mr safford's Jud you're going use the mic sorry to Mr safford's point one of the things that we're seeing is uh as you say there there are not so many large collected Parcels at the moment but there are smaller projects and when the smaller projects come they need the same things that these big projects are asking for they they need that um either a deviation variance depending on what route they're going for that ground level parking every project needs that we haven't pretty much anything that's come in where it's anything of more than just a tiny lot where they don't need a Varian where they don't need let's throw parking out the window I think we can all agree on that that has to do with the definition of how we're F if we can take that ground level or even in a larger development the the second floor of parking that we're requiring them to put in this parking but we're penalizing them on the F which is really what they're selling what they're going to to you know put their investment into um I think that would help the smaller projects some of these smaller projects because they have to come in and they have to ask for these these deviations variances and we're pushing them through this onerous project there's very little that can be built by right without any special thing and so when these small projects come then they also have to say we're providing a special benefit or a public benefit and um they have less of an ability to do that so one of the things that we've kind of thought about is that with the development agreement maybe that's more appropriate for a smaller project because at a smaller project then we can think about you know you can you can look at that separately from the way you look at a CPD for the larger project where you're looking for more out of it because it's going to have more of a impact that's just a suggestion as a way because I think that the intent of that development agreement when it came through was for that to be a kind of a quicker process um to to get things you know moving a little bit quicker but when you've got a large project it just takes time it just does because of the the size of it and they will probably need some kind of um uh deviation or or variance so that's that's one suggestion I mean I think taking that parking levels that ground level out of the F that'll help a lot of projects move forward on the parking I mean and because what you see is that ground level gets counted as a floor and then it gets counted as parking as a as part of the F but then it's not the the investor the the Builder is not getting that you know kind of return on investment for that level so what you may see like you may see another level um in in height in some of those smaller projects so that's a something to to think about but I think that there is a ways to do that especially these smaller projects to encourage that Redevelopment without them having to come to the LPA and the Town Council which would get them moving FAS yeah well I think that councelor Stafford's always said that about the development agreement geared more towards the small business person right but who's the one that used but there's there's understand so we we have we have it but we haven't put any gas into it so I think the gas would be hey we're all going to agree that parking is not going to be counted in far we're we're going to allow you to take what you had on on on the ground level and put it up we're not even going to tell you how many parking spots you need because you're going to have to figure that out yourself I think should be totally out of the equation but if if we do something like that to let let the smaller investor know hey we want you to build back and we're going to allow you to do this and maybe maybe we have like a time frame on it Jane maybe we say for the next five years if you're willing to to invest and rebuild we'll give you this this and this in exchange for you doing it within the next five years and then it might change after five years what we're going to accept and that's not for large Parcels but for for small and I don't that's an attorney question can we quantifi it under an acre can we so many room how does that that concerns me with spot zoning and that this this whole conversation is concerning to me for multiple reasons one the spot zoning part of it if I'm a large developer and you're saying you're giving special rules to a smaller development that I'm not allowed to have to me that sounds like spot zoning and you're the attorney you tell me if I'm wrong but the other thing that concerns me is if you're just going to completely eliminate where you I'm I'm throwing it out there I mean devil's advocate of what could potentially come down the road because a developer is hearing okay and now I can go two I'm going to push my luck and go three stories of parking and now I'm going to so I'm going to be three stories before I even get to any livable space that's going to be parking everything you give they're going to push the limit on that's their business that's their job that's how they make their money that's what they're going to do and then they're going to negotiate down to what everybody can live with so I'm very hesitant to just say we're not going to do that because then you might as well change your comp planning Land Development code to say that could I offer suggestion so we've got base fled elevation and we just saw one that was 17 and with the 3T over it became 20 ft and that's what resulted in two floors of parking so if it's any if it's anything that's non-habitable in other words it's below that level then it doesn't contribute to F because you're having to use it for orinal discussion was to to eliminate that because of that reason now we're talking about a second story not counting as F no no no I'm trying to I'm anything under base flood doesn't count anything above base flood counts so if you could fit if you have 25 ft of Base flood and you could put three very short stories in there for example and they were parking then they would not contribute it would generally be two but what we what we see on This Island right is anything that's on on the beach side is going to be 15 17 20 ft and that easily could be two stories and I'm I'm saying the intent of not counting parking but ensuring that you don't have somebody who wants to build a five story parking garage with five stories of habitable space on top you've now created something that would restrict that so what I'm hearing is um kind of changing our codes to not to bypass a uh development agreement process what I would say is that the way that your current process is written it's very very fible and I think it could accommodate a small project as well Theus would be that what the small project would have to go to the LPA and to counil for two reads that isome then you need to consider you turn that off Nancy or is that a battery issue well it's not Nancy day anymore so can you sure so I'm kind of hearing um two things one is um the the need to perhaps amend some of your existing codes that would allow some of these smaller projects to go ahead and go through the process and possibly even obtain an administrative uh approval without having additional public comment my comment was that when the development agreement process was created it was intended not only for the larger developments as the one we have now but also for the smaller projects we just haven't had a smaller project go through we had a larger project that's almost done with the process and we had a couple little blips so we've had to come back and try to address those but if we had a smaller project try to go through that process maybe that process would work um I do will remind everyone that yes that process entails an LPA review and two public meetings before uh the Town Council that may be too onerous from a policy perspective for some of these smaller projects um but it might not be I I don't know I mean if it's crystal clear as to what they want to do and it looks like it does have some special benefit or public benefit maybe that process would work we just haven't gone through that yet so um in hearing everything that everyone is saying um we are going back into uh public input for the comprehensive plan and for the Land Development code and I wonder if it would make sense to do a bit more visioning in that rather than than just looking explicit L into what the comprehensive plan says but really looking at what the town Wants What It Feels what we're going for um because I think that that could help guide developers too um in understanding what it is that the town wants not just a kind of a general but like have more detail maybe have some pictures have some designs that everybody says yeah yeah yeah that's you know say a very specific Florida vernacular that we like so we don't end up with something that everyone is sort of feeling not great about um maybe come up with some areas that the town is interested in having specific small area plans um and that helps guide development too so that developers can come in and say oh we know for sure that they want this type of use here we know for sure that they want four stories we know for sure so that stability and understanding what the town actually is looking for helps Drive development because it's it's more it's more secure they they understand okay I can build this I know what that's going to cost I know what I can spend you know just gives them the ability to know what the town wants before they get too far into the process because right now where we're at is you know somebody comes forward with a plan and staff is basing it on what the comprehensive plan says in Land Development code says but then it gets to the LPA and the Town Council and you guys don't necessarily neily agree we've been guiding them because that's how the process works and this is what our code says and this is what our comp plan says and it puts us in a pretty crummy position because we're trying to get them to the Finish Line we're trying to help them to get there and it's not clear what everyone wants you know the things that you wanted 10 years ago are not the things that you want today so going through that whole visioning process where everybody can come out and be involved and you know say what matters to them I think would be really helpful and extraordinarily helpful Sarah okay so I I think that that's a really good place to start and then we can build up that that comprehensive plan with the that Vision in it we can build up the Land Development code with that Vision in it um I did reach out to Jason he said that they're working on uh doing researching the uh for the uh impact fees that they're they're researching um needs of the town and that they want to have a meeting with the Town Council soon so he's reaching out I said when can you schedule that so he's working on getting that done and hopefully that will be in December so fingers crossed you guys might have a meeting about impact fees in December great great great okay so Judith back to your list I can you can you just go over it because I cannot read it I'm sorry and I've got glasses on well I can kind of read it okay so I've just been taking General notes they're not really in any specific order um I just added what Sarah said about the uh comprehensive Plan update including visioning and creation of small area plans um and then the Land Development code would be updated based on whatever came out of those conversations the comp plan has to be finalized first and then we can work on the Land Development code um after that I have guidelines guiding principles I don't know whether you want to cut and Pace what Mr Dunlop had in in his those whether that works for you but that's something that I heard consistently that people were were looking for overarching guidelines um for for coming up with what is a public benefit well let's just ask that do you do you all agree with those because I mean basically the three guide the three guidelines aspirations whatever word you want to put in there that Dunlap has listed are really itemized more or less or illustrated by Bowen over here so um they're they're on the same page there do you all agree with this yes agree myself yes could we and and forgive me if I miss this but could we incl include a category of sort of essential Services getting into the medical dental Physical Therapy there's something in that I don't know how you know those will be challenging to accomplish but they certainly should be aspirational for Island but you know Jim I've always struggled with that I agree with you in concept on that but I those services are going to be dictated by the cost of everything and the the costs are going to dictate that we can say we really want to do it and they can stand there and say we really want to do it too but they don't have any control of it just like we don't have any control and and I don't know how you put that in there as a I see maybe as a guideline principle we want to the goal if there's a way you could get to it but it's to send a message to those who invest in the community particularly in a larger uh uh uh development that if they bring something unique to the table let's say they've got a relationship or a partnership with a medical facility where they could do a branch or or even if they've got a relationship with a an urgent care and they could bring it to the island they could facilitate that there's unique developers out there that have a lot of connections if they could make that happen and they could offer that we would look favorably upon that wouldn't guarantee they get what they want but it would certainly be something we would welcome it's it's again an aspirational goal and I think if I'm a developer and I see this Litany of things that I could that the town is looking for and they say well my goodness one of my one of my Subs in my Corporation actually owns an urgent care you know and I I could move one of those over there pretty easily and I could find a doc and do all this or or a Physicians phys a nurse practitioner whatever I could I could put that there and I just don't I I want to because we're obviously trying to to to to to give some guidance as to what we need and what we're looking for on the island so I agree with you it could be difficult but we may have unique situations where I mean this is your world Jim Dunlop you mean I mean there may be unique situ where they could a developer could actually make that happen much more in a much more definitive way than myerside did I agree with you myerside was really sketchy I mean I mean certainly aspirational I don't mean sketchy in a sketchy I don't mean it in ative now no but I don't mean it in a pejorative sense they just couldn't they couldn't guarantee it so we tried to put some incentives in but I do think there are there are some develop developers who could potentially guarantee it and I I wouldn't want to I would I would certainly want to let them know that this is certainly in need on Fort Meers Beach yeah I think you know when you talk talk about this the more I I try to formulate how you can get to like a restaurant for instance most developers I've talked to it's a a restaurant is not whether it's a hotel or it's a condominium it's not a re Revenue generator for them it's a necessity for them to entice people to buy or stay at their place but they don't necessarily make any money off it how can that be applied to what you're saying a haircut place or I'll give example dentist or something how can that be applied to I'll give you an example make it work for what they need as well let's let's so let's say somebody buys hands in prayer somebody buys kesto and they say I want to go up two or three stories and and and and and and they say I want to go up two or three stories and that doesn't really fit into our our our vision for that particular location then they say well listen wait a minute my my entity owns a series of dental offices this and that and we will guarantee we'll put a doc in there we'll put a dentist in there we and that's the only way it could happen if that entity owned those businesses not the only way but have a relationship those those medical type services are limited by what they can charge so you know what it take my business you can plot me anywhere and instead of charging $68 for the bracelet I could charge $128 for the bracelet but that isn't true of a dentist or any other type of medical personnel because they're Guided by Insurance Anita I agree with you in a perfect world in a normal Fort Meers Beach World we're not living in a normal Fort Myers Beach we have a dramatic shortage of retail because we have a dysfunctional situation with two of our key retail outlets y so we're not living in I agree with you normally but we're not living in we're living in the Bizarro poan world and I think that's why we have to be more aggressive in going after some of these services or they just they're just not going to come organically I don't think I I'm in agree with putting it in as a as a guiding principle of essential services and essential Services is a big open bucket I mean it's not necessarily just yeah I I don't mind opening the bucket but I wanted those are three pretty easy ones CU we an older population So Physical Therapy is a big deal obviously everybody needs a dentist everybody needs somebody who can write a script you've got a UTI or a sinus infection or whatever you don't want to have to drive over to chiropr you could throw that on there I have no problems with that but I just think I mean that's those are basic blocking and tackling of life I mean you know we talk about getting get people tease me about the haircut thing but I mean you know do I have to drive to Margaritaville with a beautiful Salon to get my haircut that's the only place on the island get your so we all hop in the car once a month and we drive off Island we contribute to the traffic I mean it's nuts I mean you don't go to Margarita Ville you don't contribute to the local economy for your well I've Tri actually actually Anita I actually tried to make an appointment at Margarita they don't have somebody who cuts men's hair there on staff they have to bring them in off Island special for the appointment so and God bless them I mean if there's not enough men getting their haircut maril it makes sense I'm not blaming them but there is no way where for so we're all hopping in our cars and we're contributing to the mess here on Fort Myers and and I think Scott's made this point numerous times if we could get some of these places on the island we not the traffic issue at least in terms of our contribution to it would diminish greatly I could in the old days with when Santini Plaza was flourishing aside from going to our local public I could go for a month without ever leave without ever getting in my car so I mean these are the kind of basic Services we ought to try to incent and encourage to come back and again in a in a perfect world I understand the market forces but we're not living in we're living in a bizarre world especially with this retail situation see want something um as a number four that would go to lines of accelerating or providing essential services for the island yeah is that what you're talking about and I'd like to give a couple examples because if I'm a developer I'd like to know what you're talking about I think if we do that if we put that as a as a guiding principle and then down below under a product or service enhance what we're talk Define what we're talking about it marries back the guiding principle of we value that so much and here's some of the examples we value further that's great that okay that' be fine can can I interrupt just real quick just because of the definition we have a definition of essential services in our c if we could use a different terminology for this this how about community services that would be appreciated the the other thing I just wanted to add real quick is that um there are some things because we we definitely heard what you because you brought this up at the Town Council and we definitely heard that and we did some brainstorming about that I think adding a category economic diversity or diversity of of businesses or something along those lines but additionally there's other things that as a government entity that we can do to maybe the use of some regulations around speciically medically related facilities allowing them in more places giving more opportunities for people coming in that is something that we can do J that's where you come in and I'd love to hear your suggestions on them because I think we would embrace them immediately I my only point is that th that goal can be addressed in more than one way as outside of just public benefit so we're talking we have one conversation here but we could have another conversation about other ways to attract it so Judith we said something like back to community service accelerating and or providing um Community Services as a guiding principle number four on there then we took Jim's suggestion down below and it sounds like both by site in other words by location um that you're suggesting we could perhaps do some things that would allow things where they're not today in this category right but separate from the public benefit conversation comp then we would just put some examples Jim's talking about down the product service subcategory that would tie back to the community services that um Jim say like to have as a guiding principle that's what I heard is that what you heard yes okay you go that yeah beautiful I think a community service benefit that I think we haven't talked about but I think to your point Jim as far as people getting the cars and going to places we have one grocery store on the island everyone that comes here the 60,000 people during season go to that grocery store multiple times EXC corner stores I think those are are kind they're big and small communities at least where I come from they were big and small communities if you needed something that was essential you could go to this little corner store and not have to go I would love to see some of those implemented somehow as potentially unique benefit or and if you remember I I know this is controversial but the original arches proposal actually had a little grocery store in there which to your point though me may not be in that context but I love that concept of having a grocery store or at least a a little storefront grocery Mid Island northern Island so you you can walk orot take your there was one at Santini yes yeah that's right that would be wonderful that can be congruent with um like we talked about the restaurant debate on some of these developments I I know that there's a cafe or breakfast place or something included in the original London Bay presentation I saw so if they're hearing this which I know they're in the audience today um those are the kind of things that a larger enhancement to that providing that in the South End Bingo that steps the game up quite a bit so I think it's a great good conversation that means I'll never have to get my car I love that chip okay uh Judith Sarah anything I'm curious if we have come up with a with definitions for all of these things because I think that the definitions really help staff and determining if you know when somebody comes forward with a proposal you know if we don't have um a list that we think is necessarily complete do we have a way to define what a unique benefit is what a special benefit is what a public benefit is and I think having um some definitions would be very helpful for staff and potentially for Council and LPA when somebody comes forward and says this is a public benefit and then you could read the definition and say no that's not that's a special benefit or that's an amenity for your clientele but having that that definition might be very helpful I know you always drive to that and I could be way off B here but I hope you drive them to us and I'm not talking about in the formal session in the pre- sessions I talked about before I'd love that to be a dynamic conversation to come back to us then through you to say here's what we're adding as a result of the feedback we got from The Joint meetings with whomever I just think we if we definitions are wonderful or guiding and directly they also limit creativity and spontaneity of what people say okay I got it I'm going to do it differently so somewhere between there I'm always going to advocate for because I think the ability of people do things that we don't demand or resp or expect specifically are the best ones because they're going to want them do them enthusiastically and they may be better than what we offered and that's why I wanted a definition rather than a specific list because if it kind of fits into the general scheme of the concept because they may want to sort of make up their mind about what they're able to give before they get to the point where they feel like they can they have something to come forward with well Judith took a stab at defining these in her November 7 and are you are you comfortable with that do you think that that hit the nail on the head if you want a definition we should probably look at those I think we've discussed what uh you know we've discussed public benefits special benefits and amenities quite a bit I think we could make a general blend those two conversation Che okay generalize because the conditions at least we could set that like the conditions of a public benefit we talked about perpetuity uh we talked about actual Public Access and we talk we talked about some definitions of amenities okay uh a restaurant but you know it's like Co benefits the developer and the community what the excuse me that scared me scared me so I think you could I think you could take what we've talked about today and draft up something and we could check it over we could look at it but I think we covered that pretty well the public benefit and special benefit are the same uh no no don't don't touch it John but you could still talk it seems to be like um I think if I could give you some clarification of what I understand we came about um public benefit was something that was available to all public in perpetuity now I'm going to take a step out further than what I heard was consensus at no additional cost special benefit would apply to a subset of the population and may or may not include some commercial aspect which is of benefit to the developer as well as benefit to the residents that's fair and then amenity and an amenity is something that's available to the people that part be there any nice to so just to be just to be clear the reason there's those two different definitions is that the development agreement calls for the special benefites I I think I think you need to have I think you need to have special uh what else we got special public unique and amenity because unique I think is a very important one up there too because what's unique to the South End may not be unique to the North End and that's in the guiding principles which fits very nicely to the whole document it is location based yes it is so here's another question um regarding development agreements we've said that you know in the conversation earlier we said that development agreements may make sense for some smaller developments too A lot of those smaller developments may be unique they may be building back a business that people want but it may be difficult for them to provide what we would consider to be like sort of an above and beyond benefit because they're small because they're you know struggling to get back into the to be part of the community so we don't want to put anything in that would prevent those people from from accessing the ability to do that type of development I mean do you agree I think just by having unique in there to your point it gives it gives decision makers at the time the ability to use that and not necessarily something that's a special benefit it gives you that extra bucket or that extra tool in the tool boox to be able to say we understand that you can't provide you know beach access we understand you can't provide a public restroom but you can provide the uniqueness in this benefit whether it be a return of a business that was here before Ian or something along those lines that could be weighed in as a public benefit or at some point where when we have a commun what did I write down a Community Partnership fund aside from our impact fees that business or that property could also contribute there could be contribution to that for things like uh resiliency plan or a seaw wall or a Mona rail or whatever somebody decides they want at that particular moment remember that was a plan early on so Sarah do you need more than I mean I'm looking back to the original um straw man here unique unique in its nature or physical location doesn't that capture what you're trying to do the smaller approaches everyone thinks their project is unique and they are good then make their case well and and and that so so giving them some sort of a criteria whether it's architectural whether it's Landscaping whether it's a unique product a unique service experience maybe location I mean and I think that that is open to interpretation which is positive should be um but I have to tell you everybody thinks what they're doing is unique even if it's that's a box guys that's box that's not unique that's so you know having having some way that you can judge it because you'll want criteria when it comes before you you'll want to be able to say yeah this is kind of what we wanted or no and have a way to say no so that's that's kind of that's pretty important too having criteria that you can you can either say yeah we think they met it or we think they did not meet it but Sarah um that that word unique I I like I like Jim's idea of okay your Project's unique tell me why because your Project's unique tell the person who's sitting here 5 years from now why it it it's it's going to be a different pitch we won't be in Bizarro land as Jim said uh you know then and so it will be different so I don't know that I want to uh I don't know that I want to quantify unique um unique in its nature is uh is going to be something that the developer or business has to compel us to believe um I I don't know could we somehow capture the IL defined but understood Vibe contribute to the what's the right word The Eclectic eclectic culture and nature of Fort Mar Beacher something like that the captures it's funky and we're going to like funky to a c extent I'm kind of struggling but you know what I'm saying it then we're getting to aspirational of what are we trying to retain on this island what what are we trying to protect on this island maybe that gives us a little something to spin off what Patrick was saying how are we going to build our pirate ship for all the Pirates yes you know think go ahead sorry I was going to say and and I think that just just some little details will help because also we don't want people I mean people are spend a lot of money to get a development to you right and I mean because they're they're hiring Architects and surveyors and engineers and everybody is involved in this so by the time it gets to you if they didn't hit it and they get all the way to LPA or town counsil before they realize they didn't hit it it's cost a lot of money and a lot of time so and because you guys do want development to happen you know how do we make sure that we make this as clear as possible so that people have a vision have your vision when they're moving forward and not spinning their wheels not wasting their money and speaking of spinning wheels that kind of goes into the analogy that I I've been thinking about a lot because a lot of us and I and I thought about a Jeep because I'm a Jeep guy a jeep has always been a Jeep Fort Myers Beach has always been Fort Myers Beach it may have different iterations we're now in a different iteration of what that Island Jeep would look like but you still can take the top off you can still take the doors off you can still be funky and fun may have a bigger engine may be lifted may have better brakes may have better emissions may but the island and maybe that's a bad analogy or if you're a Corvette guy a Corvette's always been a Corvette it's been a fast car right I mean Fort Myers Beach to me is like a car I always go back to car just because it makes sense to me and and we're in a different iteration of what we were when you were in high school here right or when you went to school here we're just in a different iteration of what Fort Myers beaches and how do you keep that same gener gen generality is that a word you nurture the community you nurture the community and you set a level of expectations that they feel comfortable with so that they know they are going to redo their house for the fifth time or the third time or whatever and they keep doubling down and doubling down it's like not to bring up my store again but you know people come in and they go oh my gosh isn't this bigger and I said yes it's twice the size I doubled down on the insanity I literally doubled it and so and was that a smart idea or was it pure craziness time will tell but I think you have to doing that you have to let people know that they can have faith in What's Happening Here Anita you had asked if the people have to run the place Andy and Frankie have any reaction or feedback to what we're doing yeah I've been waiting for one of them to get up but they haven't no pressure be fun to hear about the people that ultimately have to do you have any reac not to put you on the spot there but no pressure here Andy here have this one sorry I was maybe we need an audio fund Jason just brought you that's an ongoing fund that's true we definitely need an audio F we we are in the process of uh renovating a new building so we don't have to have this problem so we do have audio phone it's coming patience patience that's all we have that's what he's going to contribute okay that's what we need that's a big one thing they brought me here to do is put the island back the way it was traffic that was a good point you made I had not heard that that you had traffic in 1977 that there was traffic in 1952 that was that was related to today yes so if they haven't been able to solve it in 50 years not you're going to solve it in two weeks I'm going to solve it in 18 months it's not going to be solved get that off the list we we just we got to live with it don't take it off the list no I don't mean it that keep I mean today I mean today because it's like we continually work to improve the traffic they're working now to improve the traffic there's a lot of money being put in so so basically you brought me here to to do this so so one thing we're doing is trying to return the town to where the storm Water Works where the sewer Works where you you turn the water on the water comes we're working on tanks we're working on things that are infrastructural things what we want what I I want you to do is when you when you decide on what you do with your impact fees don't make them so precise that it can't be something we don't know hasn't been developed or come down the pipe yet that we can't spend the money on don't limit ourselves by a building fund Judith and I work places before together and we had a building fund where you paid the impact fees you know we're paid into the building fund can only be used for the building fund couldn't do anything else with it let's don't limit our vision by the impact we've talked talked about a transportation fund for months and talked about how that's important and when you come in if you talk about parking I agree parking can just take care of itself it will it always has always will we can create I've created more parking in other towns they fill up and they still want more parking so it will take care of itself it really will but if you put the money in the into a fund that that covers the seaw wall that covers the resiliency that covers everything that we can think of today then then then our hands aren't tied going forward so that that's something I want you to really be mindful of um the Strategic plan is not mine by the way it's I know it's not yours it's not Andy's strategic plan so we're working on that we've got uh uh our our newest employee here to help Drive our strategic plan so Tracy Ker's here to to basically that's one of her objectives is to get that off the ground and going further than we have Jason's been working on that so we're working on those and all of this does drive together I mean obviously if you don't don't have and Karen and I have talked a lot about strategic planning and it and and if if your strategic plan is not in place then it's really hard to to to direct people on which way to go what's on who's on first base who's on second that's really a difficult situation um so we're really that's near and dear to me too so we're really trying to get that off the ground been working with um um I can't remember her name what's her name Jason inel Angela um with the University of South Florida she's with with a government Association there that does strategic plans so we'll work on that so we'll be coming back together more and more over the next 3 to 5 months doing these kind of things as we continue to plan strategically um how do we offer better protection from storms if we we want to attract people we want to offer benefits something we need to offer developers is protections protections from the storm we got another one next week I was just looking at an email starting to prepare for next week um that gets a little tiring you know we don't want to talk about it again but we have to talk about it again um and we just get streets cleaned up and it's been you know what the last couple months we've really been uh you know chasing our tail about this but you know we're talking about moving pipes again and how Dan and I were talking about this morning how can we better help secure our beach a little bit and you know things like that so again I think that's one of the focuses I take out of this uh I'm not you know educ a lot of smart people in this room by the way and I'm very impressed and I love to hear the knowledge and and the information that you present our planners have equal um knowledge and experience and and they they can offer us a lot and I think the the one thing is those impact fees near and dear to every Community I think Dan and I have talked so much about them you know we know they go to the county that the county gets a lot of the impact fees we've kind of been on the short end of the stick for a lot of years we need to kind of flip that narrative absolutely but let's not restricted as much as as other communities I've seen do that before I know B Harbor um is is a good good um community that has already put an ordinance in place that the the impact fees go to a general type fund so that's the kind of thing we need to focus on as we go forward is how we can use those funds to help development it could it there could be various ways that we haven't even imagined happening yet that that are coming down the road what what do we need money for the Montreal I've heard that you know canals dredging Canal dredging exactly how do we how do we how do we do it but storm prep I think that right Dan you that's got to be at the top of the list and and I think it's you know working with FEMA you know how do we use it in matching grants how do we do things because there's always going to be a call call but I appreciate the the the conversation it's very very insightful thank you Andy I'll just add two really brief comments one is staff is here as clay so we are moldable to what your decisions are or what your guidelines are we have the future of the town to rebuild but we can only do that with guidance so we just came through this growing pain of a development agreement very first one and personally I thought between a lot of the people sitting here we knocked it out of the park for what the guidelines that were given to us and the challenges on both sides the developer and the town and we went back and it was a lot of give and take over a long period of time time to get an agreement right or wrong acceptable or not it was jointly achieved by staff and the developer to me those are baby steps we knew that this was going to be the first one we we knew that this is the The Growing Pains thing and and it was very awkward for both sides but it taught both sides a lot um on the developer side the comments have been made correctly they're not coming in here blindly um doing with government for 40 years they know what they can get and what they can't get and they always start low because they think that you're going to kind of go in low with low aspirations um I I I don't think that this was the case in this particular uh Arena but for staff just having some type of of Benchmark to go for we now have it we we now know what we hit our knees on and and what we did so going forward any type of guidance that we can get from a governing board to put into policy helps us greatly and I appreciate all your time and all your input and I Lov your documents uh I I think that's that's what we need that's what we need going forward is is that kind of a guideline so thank you all for your time thank you Frank okay so um where do would you like to go from here I mean I think we've uh We've we've done a good job at kind of fleshing out what we think public benefits are and what special benefits are and what an amenity is do you all agree yeah y okay do you agree Judith no you don't agree I can tell by the look on your face so what would you like clarification on just the this I what I wrote up one two three four five contributes to The Eclectic character of Fort Meyer's speach you're you're comfortable with that statement to what Sarah was saying earlier um because I've been thinking about this is when you're NE meting with somebody you I didn't want to find that it's preferable to be in a position of strength when the developer comes in and there's no uh when they're told okay well they they can offer this this basket of different types of benefits they're going to put whatever they think is appropriate in there and then you're you're asking for more and then you'll say well you know I want we want more we want more but they've made the starting offer set the price and then you're kind of coming at it from the edges well if they come in with with 10 stories and you don't feel the benefits equal that are you going to say only eight stories is worth What's Happening Here I think if you if you think about this this character and what you really are are looking for um developer can they can work on that ahead of time and then you're coming in and you say we've said we' said this and it's clear you're not doing this and so we need more so you're feel like that would be more of a position of of um uh negotiating um uh trying to get it like a a position of strength so you come in and you say this is our we you know uh we want this we want unique architecture that's typical of Southwest Florida or the the islands kind of character that's want and then the developer comes in and say you know we don't like that we like modern architecture and that's what we want to build well then you can decide whether that's okay with you or you're looking at that you're saying it doesn't doesn't me it we're good we're not we're not going to take this and then you've got they've got to come back to the drawing board you can always I I think in in thinking about this say or like or you know inclusive of what's the the lawyer the lawyer word including but not limited to right correct but but putting some paramet out there especially if you have an idea of what you want if you want that kind of you know Key West you know Island kind of look it might be helpful to say that um and then they're going to give you that uh unless they've got some whole other you know idea and then they'll they'll try to pitch you but then you're at a position of strength thing that's not what we said we're not we're not going to do that but you can always if You' got inclusive language in there work with them if you feel like it's necessary but if if if the this the character um and I think that was a point that that Patrick made whether that was yesterday or before I forget but he was saying in the comp plan it says is it compatible you can always say it's it's not compatible and we're deny you don't like it it's not compatible and you don't have to go any further than that but then you're not really going to get what it is that you want exactly and some communi got give direction you know some communities don't want development they don't want it and then that's really easy to explain to people you got to come in and you got to do exactly what's in the code because they don't really want anything new so you You' got to make it you know word for word what's in the code but this is a community from what I'm hearing that is is open to new ideas as long as it's compatible with that character so in this comp plan visioning maybe it's not today but yes I think it's in the visioning thinking about what that what that eclectic character is and I you have an idea of what that is but kind of coming to to like a general consensus that doesn't necessarily limit you but at least provides that guidance so you're starting at a period a point of we've said this is this is what we're we're looking for I that's that's great and I agree because I think uh ages ago we said you know it's easy to we we've always told people here are the rules this is what we don't want but we never said what we did want want and that's what we need to be doing right now that's what we need to be doing right now Madam chair par parliamentary inquiry of sorts and I know we're we've gone two hours but I just quick question I thought the the discussion yesterday was excellent and one of the things that came up and I just say we're all together I thought you you raised a a very interesting concern about the applicant feeling the need to build and develop the record to the point where their presentation becomes two hours long uh I I wonder uh Nancy is it possible for them to submit their proposal Andor PowerPoint into the record without formally verbalizing it so we don't have to so it leaves more times for questions inquiries I'm much more interested in the lpa's questions of the applicant I've reviewed their proposal I don't need to hear them verbalize it uh you know hitting the highlights is fine because it's great for the public but can you comment on that yes um is it on it is okay um so establishing the record is very very important um often times when we do you know we follow a script right in a lot of our quasi judicial proceedings um there is a question sometimes that's asked first of all have you seen the agenda materials um often times we could ask is there a motion to incorporate uh the PowerPoint or the the information that they're bringing into the record and that motion could be made and hopefully approved then they have it in the record and they don't necessarily have to go through the entire thing um some communities do that as standard protocol so everything they bring is automatically in the record um I think that's what you were getting at it weren't you Jim I mean I love I love and then just kind of do some highlights of yes you know we've submitted this packet this PowerPoint uh we just want to draw your attention to page seven on page seven you'll see blah blah blah on page 24 you'll see gets to the point where the applicant feels like they have to read every single point even the minutia of their PowerPoint somehow to get it into the record when I'd much rather be hearing lpas qu peppering them with questions so so as part of the quote housekeeping things that we do at the onset of our quasi judicial proceedings we can have that question we can make that motion that would give them some Assurance it also gives me a little three hours thanks I prefer that over a time limit because I think I think that that that that's more organic yeah but what about getting that so we do it in the meeting that doesn't give us the opportunity to review it prior to the meeting oh no it would be be in the packet have that but that was also disc be in the packet um as far as presenting new ideas and New Concepts or proposals during the meeting um the idea of having an automatic continuance if you submitted uh uh significant changes after the time that the agenda went out that it would automatically be a continuance um but I think as I pointed out maybe in I don't know if it was a private conversation or during the meeting but sometimes things happen during the meeting and you learn new things and you want to make that change so you may not want an absolute rule that if it's after the agenda going out it's an automatic continuance um give yourself a little bit of discretion because maybe it's something that yeah it's a little bit of a change but it shouldn't hold this project up but but I think to Karen's point the magnitude of that deck yesterday um that we weren't afforded time to review in advance to go through it'd be hard for me to allow that to be read in the record with no notice or um opportunity to to have questions like like we do around it so we be very clear to the applicant that that we we would consider that a significant ad at the end and we don't want that to occur occur what you're going to present the multitude magnitude of it needs to be in the package ahead of time within the time frames we've agreed or it's not going to be included in the testimony or you well I don't know that you should exclude it from the testimony but I think what you could do is put out there um the risk of having a motion to continue because of the significant information that you've just been provided and honestly as a quasi judicial decision maker you are the the expectation is there that you have read all your agenda materials and that you're knowledgeable of it and you are prepared ncy just just for the record I was just referring to the Neptune example the the the the pink show was a different Dynamic and a different set of challenges but the Neptune one I just felt that that the applicant felt the need and I I in my previous life there's nothing more well there's few things more painful than seeing someone with an extensive PowerPoint who feels like they have to read everything in the PowerPoint when obviously they could hit hit 10,000 feet and then just allow more time for Q&A and exchange back and forth so it's the Neptune that I was referencing but the pink shell raised its own set of concerns but but yeah so the fact that they could submit that in the record still hit the high points uh for the public I think that's really important but there was such granularity in there that just wasn't right but as a decision maker you may not feel comfortable you may want to take that extra time to go through that document that's fine too that would be the that would be the that would be the choice the discretion of the vpa and or the council yeah I think it does another thing that is always frustrated me and it's happened a few times over the last few years is you made a point about it allows you the opportunity to say the door to be open for a motion to continue it goes for me even a step further I've talked to several LPA members that have voted one way on a project only to see once it that that project goes to the council it has significantly changed or more information has been put in that it should go back for review because it maybe would change right so I think that gives us a little bit of a a a I don't know want to say fence but almost a back something that we can push back on and say listen yes you're expecting us to look at something in good faith you have to provide us with good faith and if you're going to show the LPA one thing and then show the council something different and if we don't see it until the day of to your point Jim it becomes very difficult and and and it's unfair to the residents and the policy makers quite honestly to to to vote on something that they didn't clearly get a chance to see well and to the staff that in the meeting that we had have gone to Great Lengths to make sure that we have everything in a in advance that we can prepare for so it's not fair to them so the LPA um their primary task under Florida law is to make a finding of consistency that the proposal that's come before them is consistent with your comp plan then they make a recommendation to you um included in that recommendation is whether or not the project is consistent but then at the council level you also Al make a determination on consistency um and then there's a separate cause of action to challenge a decision for consistency in and of itself so I try to watch what you're doing and and make sure that we make those findings and that it's in our ordinance and in um you know as as we move forward um but once it comes to council and if it is perceived as a different project than what was recommended as being consistent by the LPA clearly within your discretion to send it back if not if not your obligation I mean if it's a totally different project one last thing can we expand that to presentations Al also it's it's drove me crazy since being on the LPA till now someone comes in for a presentation on whatever it is and we don't see the presentation until they're actually giving it here and and now you're flaring for hours asking questions it or you're you're they're asking us to give you know you know uh favor you know be on their side or or give them a recommendation or and we haven't had a chance to see it until it's here or the public hasn't had a chance to see it so personally I've been asking for years to be able to see presentations in our packet ahead of time whether it's the no or whether it's whatever so that we can have our notes ready to go we're not just reacting to what we see ahead of time so the way other communities I have seen that handled is a Time limitation on um the presentation itself I've seen as little as 20 minutes 30 minutes uh by the applicant property owner and then if there is a need to extend that period of time someone will make a motion and say um I would like to make a motion to give so and so I think Dan's referring to an outside agency or Sam from the we love kittens ass so if they bring 100 page presentation for the first time that they're intending to show you that's going to eat up their entire time period That's allocated um so that's kind of a message that could be sent as far as your procedures how much time they're going to get again a 100 you know slide PowerPoint is going to eat up that time they have to present so just food for thought kind of got off the rails there a little bit in I think it good though that was good okay so anything else from anyone else do you want to have her scroll up on her there's more on her your cheat sheet that you have Judith is in there which the I mean I think the the top portion is the the main thing that you've kind of built consensus on today um it sounds like the next step maybe is not to adjust um the the code now but to go through this comp plan visioning process first um but at least we have some guidelines of what you're you're looking for um but I think this would eventually lead to an ordinance that would adjust the Land Development code good is that everybody's not in your head yes okay Tracy I sure am glad that you're here with this yeah very very glad very glad indeed okay anything from anyone else thank you all for this joint meeting it is 10 uh we can we don't have it on the would you like to have public comments I yeah okay cly David anybody sure yeah I I think I inundated everybody with um emails the last couple days I would just agree with what your name for the record my name is Dave Le 1920 baby drive um the U I watched completely the Neptune presentation yesterday my wife and I are 100% in agreement with it it was a great presentation excellent product uh it's not overly High I don't believe there was any push back by the residents about it I think they that process was perfect from beginning to end apparently they had Community meetings um that's what all developments seem to be and if we're only going to have four more big developments it should be duplicating that process uh I don't know why they they didn't initially come in with a 10-story tower they could have but they didn't but what was accepted nobody pushed back on was the four stories over two stories of parking that was perfect so I think we need to stay with that the other thing I mentioned to uh Jim earlier uh is that the U Chamber of Commerce we need to have metrics provided to the town as to how many uh heads and beds we need to have here well she's got she has those we need to have those so that everybody can use as basis from which to make decisions because what was was talked about in the presentation yesterday was the financial impact and maybe the amenity impacts of that project and that is the really the big criteria is what is going to make that project fly or not I raised it up uh earlier to the notes I sent you was that um we are maybe not taking in consideration number of people that need to visit this is support the restaurants and the retail establishments the doctors and anything else that we want to do uh I don't see any metrics on that at all I I've never been presented but you can make a big argument that the Seagate Plaza with or Seagate presentation with only 120 units 3,000 square fet how many heads and beds is that going to represent it was replacing Co Red Coconut which had how many units now we're diminishing the number of people are going to pay for restaurants and Retail establishments the number of units that you've approved and your one vote away from so I'm really concerned about that I think we need to really flush out the financial impacts of Seagate and any other future project and resist just saying that low intensity is the answer uh because in that's a case where how you know who's going to buy a 3,000 square foot are are they expecting to have um three star star uh restaurants and that sort of thing moving forward we don't have those we have maybe one or two that's it so um I think I sent you a note you should all get it about what I think are criteria that's important on the island and even though public benefits are an issue the big issue is the financial impact David thanks for your continued involvement I appreciate it very much please good morning mayor uh Town Council LPA and staff if you don't know I'm Chris smutz with London Bay Development Group we own the out rager Charlie Sam Piper and Grand View at Bay Beach uh we greatly appreciate your dedication of Fort Meers Beach and your commitment to building back a more resilient Community we are encouraged by your efforts to provide clarity about public benefit and special benefits related to the development on the island this topic has been at the Forefront of conversations about the future of Fort Meers Beach particularly as it relates to large scale developments like those being proposed by London Bay and others we support your recommendations to include such items as rightaway Landscaping view corridors beach access points participation in multimodal transportation public art and More in fact we've included many of these in some of our conceptual plans for future projects we strongly urge you to consider the inclusion of essential Services as well in Island that has been devastated by a hurricane plus two more hits this year the view on public benefit should be viewed in a very different light compared to previously we brought together as we have brought together South residents leaders and focus groups we have heard loud and clear that restaurants bars and places to meet and hang out with friends are the most important public benefit we can offer uh and based on the conversation today we agree not to count the area below habitable towards f it has been two years since hurricane Ian and the island continues to struggle to return to the thriving Community it once was once the vibrant South End of the island where properties are located residents still lack basic amenities where they can gather over a meal cup of coffee or a cocktail with friends at Sunset these businesses provide a vital public service to the community not only enriching the lives of nearby residents but also resulting in a cascading positive economic impact for the island As you move forward with your discussions we ask you to consider long-term economic viability of Fort Meers Beach including essential services such as retails or restaurants as part of public benefit or special or unique public benefits to not only encourage the development Community but also to think about how they can innovatively support the Island's recovery but also bring the support the economy in the long run thanks to your time and consideration thank you very much anybody else wish to say anything Tracy you got anything any ideas anything you heard no good okay any all right thank you all very much anything else from anybody hearing nothing motion toour thank you it's 1056