and best direction to take and help us arrive at those directions with interactions that are dignified respectful and well-informed thank you for the solemn honor of serving the public in our roles and continue to bless those who are fortunate to live here and work here amen amen I pled Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and thank you next is the approval of the final agenda is there a motion to approve the final agenda so moved I got a motion by councelor King second seconded by councelor Woodson all those any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing none that motion carries unanimously public comment is there anyone here that would like to speak to the public comment Madam clerk nobody signed up no one okay we have close public comment next is our public hearing hearings hearing this is continued from April 1st 2024 it is resolution 2456 sez 20230 302 450 Harbor Court rude shrimp is a resolution of the Town Council of the town of Fort Meers Beach Florida approving approving with conditions denying or denying special exception secz 20233 02 requesting consumption on premises for a restaurant with a bar/ cocktail lounge that is visible from the exterior of the restaurant per section 34-12 1264 B2 a.3 for the property located at 450 Harbor Court providing for clarifications as necessary providing for conflicts of law scrier errors severability and providing for an effective date if any Town council member has had any exart communication to disclose please let us know the subject discussed and in the identity of the person group or entity with whom the commun communication took place any correspondence that you received or observations made of this site councelor King well I've been there a couple times a few times and I did receive as I recall correspondence about uh noise from several residents VI I've had no additional contact since my disclosures on Monday I have not as I have not either ccor Woodson I have had no additional contacts ccor saff no additional contact either okay um before we get started I'm get Frankie wants to do a little Public Service Announcement yes just so uh all council members are aware that this is just for the special exception that's the only what they're here for is the forward facing bar all other matters are being handled by staff okay thank you who uh Jason or sah Sarah Sarah pro has been qualified as an expert already by This Town Council and based on for ation and experience has been accepted as an expert in the field of land use planning and development in the town of Fort MERS Beach are there any other individuals who would like to be qualified as an expert witness on behalf of the applicant at this time seeing none as a property owner applicant seen a copy of the agend agenda backup materials from staff yes I I sent it so yes as far as I'm aware go ahead Sarah good morning Sarah propes with Community Development Lisa loner applicant and and Freeland Florida Holdings LLC property owner are applying for special exception to allow for consumption on premises for a restaurant with a bar visible from the exterior of the restaurant section 34-1 1264 B2 A3 allows a restaurant with 50% of sales from food to have a bar however the bar may not be visible from the exterior of the restaurant the rud shrimp restaurant is constructed of a storage container and is completely Outdoors so the bar is visible from the exterior and has exterior seating there for the bar at rude shrimp requires a special exception approval in order to operate the property is zoned commercial Marina which allows Marina accessory uses the code defines Marina accessory uses as uses normally ancillary and subordinate to a marina including but not limited to boat dealers sale of marine fuel and lubricants marine supplies boat motors boat parts restaurant or refreshment facility boat rental minor boat rigging boat repair and service and motor repair the original app application for the rude shrimp restaurant temporary permit was approved June 8th 2023 in November planning staff was made aware that where there was an outdoor bar at this location staff has suggested conditions of approval if the Town Council chooses to recommend approval of this request these are the same conditions that were applied to the beached whale with the exception of several changes um that are were added recommended by the LPA and then some changes that occurred following the meeting on Tuesday um staff has received several letters of objection and letters of support for this request staff is available for any questions you may have and I believe the applicant is also here okay are there any questions from the applicant for staff no okay Council John any questions for Sarah I guess yeah because now with what Frankie had said um seemed to muddy the waters for me uh because we had the LPA recommendation and a lot of it was about s Sound and Music um but we're just considering the bar so where are I guess I'm confused as to where we are with these uh and you just mentioned them again the the uh rules that were added by the LPA um staff was not made aware of any changes that we needed to make to the uh resolution with conditions um so these are the ones you have the opportunity to change if you do not feel that they are appropriate uh however I think staff is still in favor of all of them well I think what you were referring to was the the flood plane issues correct correct which are not part of yeah that is correct they met all the other they met all the other requirements all right well then that was yes that clears it up a little more for me thank you sorry sir so if I myself to hopefully clear the waters um so the outside bar is what precipitates the need for the special exception when the special exception was reviewed by the local planning agency they added um and staff also recommended some additional um conditions and so it's now delivered to you uh for approval denial or approval with conditions um for your determination and Nancy just to to be even more clear what we're voting on to approve or tonai is specifically just the use of an outside bar a bar outside the restaurant that is the requirement but the recommendation is in order to do that these conditions would apply UND understood okay so it's discretionary on your part got it Vice May questions I have no questions con Woodson I do have a question because I still cannot get it through my head of why when you're the ordinance refers to the outdoor bar but we have all these restrictions of Music and Sound and all of that shouldn't that be covered by just our normal Sound Ordinance and not be parts of condition in this cuz we're just looking at the bar correct well we applied the same conditions that you had for the whale so I mean it's a very similar use they're proposing they are but they they currently operate a bar that's outdoor with music um noise was one of the concerns with this um as you received letters of complaint about noise um and we applied the same requirements that the whale had which you deemed appropriate so if you don't think that they're appropriate in this instance you could certainly remove them however we thought that this was applicable it was it was sort of an Apples to Apples comparison so that's why we Ed those councelor Woodson procedurally maybe this is a question we can ask the applicant if they're okay with the conditions and then go from there but your point is well taken yep I was going to ask the applicant that question as well okay thanks Sarah Thank you Lisa good morning my name is Lisa laners I'm the applicant own and owner representing the rude Shrimp Company I'm here today to request a special exception for consumption on premise for a restaurant with a bar and cocktail lounge that is visible from the exterior of the restaurant thank you for your consideration of this request your time and your service to this community councelor Safford we'll start with councilor Woodson she for go ahead so I mean my question is okay I'll just say a couple of opinions here I think this whole ordinance is archaic and we should be looking into that that's beyond the point but are you I know this there's been some issues I know that you have done a lot to move speakers and that type of thing are you okay with having these conditions as part of the bar ordinance yeah um in relation to the music I'm okay with um what we discussed previously um we are in the process of installing um hardwired speakers that will um be basically where the temporary speakers are at right now that the musicians are using so the speakers will go in the corners of the shipping container um pointing out towards the mantanza bridge and water away from the residential neighborhood um and then this will allow the musicians to actually go back on the small stage to play from the stage um with a monitor and the speakers will be where they're currently at now it just eliminates the um um clustering of people and musicians all in that corner of the bar so the speakers will still um project the sound from where they're currently projecting the sound personally it makes me sad because I can no longer open my door to listen to the music so I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum you could skateboard down the street I could but I would be interested IID walk concer saffre that was that was the question I had if you're okay with these conditions i' I'd like to you know going forward I I understand why why these are in here but you know we're we're we've got one issue and it just gets just blossoms yeah it just blossoms so but I I do understand that you neighborhood impact and if you're okay with these um absolutely um my musicians as I stated previously are pretty consistent and actually one of the musicians that plays um they a lot is the ones wiring the speakers and they're all invested they want to stay there as long as they can as well very good Vice mayal I don't have any addition additional questions thank you King no questions at this time I do not have any either thank you Lisa thank you are there any members of the public who wish to comment on this matter if so please come forward to the podium and identify yourself provide your address and whether you were sworn in seeing none are there any additional comments rebuttal or closing statements from the applicant says no I will now close the public hearing and request a discussion or a motion from Town Council to approve approve with conditions or deny with reasons or a continuance to a Time certain Mr Mayor um I have a concern about um the six months coming uh for review I'm okay with that because they're okay with it and just like the whale when we discussed earlier these are conditions we're imposing so I would hope that we would take into consideration the cost to the applicant each time this is done that we would wave those fees is are there fees associated with the review every six months or is it administrative I think there are there are um the the way we set it up uh it says that it shall be reviewed so they're not replying for they don't have to apply for another special exception with the whale when that condition was originally written The Way It Was Written they had to get another special exception with the way realizing that that was not the way we wanted to do it and recognizing the issue that happened that time we changed this language so that it's just a review they have to come to us we have to go to you but it's not a new special exception okay thank you for that clarification okay than care my concern all right any further discussion is there a motion I'll make a motion to approve resolution number 2456 SE z202 30302 450 Harbor Court with conditions second got a motion by councelor Woodson seconded by vice mayor aderholt any further discussion roll call vote uh Council Woodson I vice mayor adhul I councelor King hi councelor Safford hi may allers deny motion carries unanimously next is the administrative agenda fees a discussion on development agreement or site plan with deviations fees oh for those that didn't get to hear it how saying he had to start his participation in his two hours of game gamemanship no they're on the second part now oh are they on the second part now is that the napping or the other part the other part got it got okay uh go ahead Andy I think mayor we've had discussions about this um I've had discussions about this internally with staff and we just want to make sure that we we've got all everything said as we move into you know new developments coming um you know we've got staff here that we can address and talk about it and just kind of get your ideas and Direction on how you would like to proceed or make any changes add to that um I think I was the one that maybe brought this up at the other meeting um you now have a new tool in your toolbox which is the development agreement and your code does say that you would have assigned a fee for it and um you know it was a short period of time between our last meeting and today's meeting um but staff did begin some discussion about how how how much should we charge what should we um how should it be structured um there was a request made that staff looked to a neighboring communities as well to see um how much they were charging and that review with neighborhood in uh communities that we just didn't have time to do that but what was put in your agenda packet was the existing fees that are charged for other types of projects or applications would be a better word um to get some feedback from you and then this item would have to be brought back sooner uh rather than later so we could actually begin using these development agreements um one thought was to have a combination perhaps in in the event that the development agreement was asking for more than one variance how much would you charge for that would it be a compilation of u a multiplier of what one variance would cost or uh would you just give one variance fee for all three variances um so staff I think was going to explain maybe how it's currently done for the different types of reviews um the different types of deviations that would be required um in a development agreement just to kind of give you an overview and get some Direction so we can bring this back quickly Sarah good morning Sarah propes with Community Development um right now so I was under the impression that staff was charging uh because this was a conversation that we had had previously that um when there was like more than one variance being requested that it was going to be just one fee um the way it's currently being implemented if it's asking for the same type of variance so if you're asking for multiple setback variances that's one fee but then if you're asking for different types of variances say you're asking for a a setback variant and a parking number variants you're asking for two two setback variances and a parking variant you'll get charged one for the setbacks and then one for the parking um which I I'd love to get direction on that so that we can clarify if that was the intent of the uh Town Council previously or if you wanted it to be all of the variances that were being requested boiled down to one fee um and also the same for uh like special exceptions right now the way it's done is if you're asking for a special exception and a variance you get charge for special exception and the variance the way we were looking at doing the development agreement was you would have a fee for your development agreement and then the components that go into that whatever that might be if you're asking for a development agreement and uh you're going to need to do special exceptions and variances um then you would get you you would be paying for multiple things but if we compare this development agreement to a CPD that's only one thing and you get special exceptions you get uses you get uh deviations and there aren't additional charges for that so I'm not sure if that is the approach that we want do we want a flat rate do we want a rate developed on square footage of the use or do we want what they would have to ask for if they weren't doing this development agreement process the way it's done in I looked at Hillsboro because I thought they did a really good job of putting it together uh they had a lot of applications they had a lot of information on their website so I could really understand what they were doing and it seems to be very similar to what we're proposing here um so they charged 2500 for anything uh I think up to5 Acres um no I think it's one acre and then from one to five it's some amount but 2500 is what we would mostly be charging because we have we don't have very many Parcels that are much over one acre um so 2500 for the basic uh development agreement fee and then charging for the individual components that would have to go into that I don't know if that's how we want it structured if that's how we want to view it or if we want to view it like a CPD where it's a flat rate and you get all the things rolled into it well I'm curious about because it was as you were talking it made me think about the argument was to have a development agreement so you didn't have to spend all the money to go through the CPD process to be able to get a denial or approval how do you do that I mean we don't want to cut our legs at least I don't want to cut our legs out from underneath our staff to be able to do their job so say it goes through whatever the fees are for the development agreement process MH what then happens if it gets approved you still have to do all the work that you would have to do through a CPD process after the approval so how do we how do we combine those two or how do we make those two and can you make those two am I making sense so if you charge a say a flat fee of a dollar for the development agreement and it goes through the process and then there's we'll just for argument say it's a dollar for each whether it's a variance it's a dollar a special exceptions a dollar right so now you've spent $5 to get your development agreement process moving it gets a approved does that amount then cover the amount of work you now really have to do to do the CPD part of the process you know what I mean and so I think that this is a better question potentially for the attorney because I don't I don't have a good understanding of the I understand what the development agreement says but I don't fully understand the processing I don't understand how it's going from here's my idea to it's done so what happens in between there who's involved how much work that is that's a big black box to me and I'm not sure um so it depends um the flat fee um or the initial fee for the development agreement is intended to defay the cost to staff to process that application for a development agreement so if you recall in the process there is a negotiation component which depending on the size or the complexity of the project could be very short or very long um as far as staff time so that's basically your starting point for the um for the flat rate um as far as the CPD your code allows for your development agreement to be the functional equivalent of a rezoning so there wouldn't have to be a CPD process afterwards that would be rolled into the agreement itself and as far as the criteria it's pretty much going to be the same criteria that you would be looking for um in a rezoning as well but you have one the benefit is that you have one document that says it all and does it all and moves as a whole and I think what I'm trying to get at maybe I didn't say it correctly is the CBD process itself cost X right to go through that because of the review time and the arguments that I've heard for the development agreement up to this point have been people don't want to spend the money on a CBD process only to be told no it wasn't that the cost it was I don't want to spend the money to be told no and now I'm out all this money so what I guess what I'm trying to get at is are we cutting the legs out from our staff and the time and the money that they spend to review a process if we change the fees does that make sense yes um but when you said say spend the money in my mind it's not necessarily the concern with the amount of the application it's more the concern of I have to go get a traffic study I have to hire a planning consultant they have to do uh if it's a site plan issue they have to do multiple revisions I think that's where the majority of the money is spent that would be determined in the negotiation process um and they would know upfront what staff's um expectation or recommendation would be that yes you do need to do a traffic study and they may at that point determine that they maybe don't want to go this route I'm just trying to figure out how we get to a price point I'm open to anybody chiming in and giving their two cents so this one is somewhat experimental for the town because we've never really done these before um they've never been implemented um my recommendation is that you come up with a number and give direction to staff and if it proves to still be cost prohibitive or um doesn't achieve the policy that you're concerned with of trying to help um stimulate Redevelopment then we'll bring it back and you can make an adjustment to it I think what you're going to find is most people I shouldn't say most but I I would imagine that they're going to ask for you know relief from parking they're going to ask for a little bit more height they're going to ask for a little bit more density especially on the smaller boutique hotels I I think those three those are almost Givens I'm I'm I might my assumption might be wrong but I would think that that you know you're going to look at density height and parking was big three yeah I would think just for a starter I mean otherwise there'd be no point of have or need for for so I I I think if you have a flat fee to start with to start with and um just to to continue on with Scott's example is that okay so now there's a parking concern they would not necessarily have to do that parking study at the negotiation component they can move forward and try to get the development agreement approved without having to do a parking study and that's a traffic study that's where the cost savings is as opposed to doing it and then finding out later that maybe they didn't really need to do it it wasn't necessary and that's that negotiation process and that's what I I get that part of what I guess I'm trying to get at is if it's a flat fee of a dollar to go through this development agreement that that's not the end if through staff and through negotiations with whoever is developing there is additional things that need to be done that is an additional cost that would be Beed by have to I just wanted to make sure that right whatever these fees are it doesn't end just because the development agreement is approved or denied well say have to say approved now the development agreement is approved but within those conditions that were set through LPA process and the council process you may have to do this this or this that are going to cost more to have the review done but they know that they're going to have to do it as opposed to just doing it sure perhaps having it not be necessary because the property right next door had a traffic study done three months ago why do we need to traffic study well right now it's because the code requires it sure but that might be uh a point of negotiation where you could wave that requirement and accept the results of uh a prior uh traffic study that's still recent sure I guess I mean I I so at this point though all we're asking for is Direction on how to get them out of the out of the barn sure this agreement and I guess I I'll go back to staff again they're the experts here they know how long it takes to review this stuff we do not so I know there was talk at the last meeting about you know you could use square footage or you could use you know acreage or you could use whatever the square footage and more I thought about it kind of scares me because through the development agreement if I come in say I'm building 10,000 square feet but it ends up not being 10,000 square feet is that a Poss I mean I don't know how that could be a possibility if they approved to build a 10,000 foot whatever it is it can't be more than 10,000 square feet I would assume is that a fair statement so I do agree with you they may come in with a concept and then through negotiations with management do not get to where they had intended um then when it comes to you it's less than what they had originally intended um I can see an a chance of that happening I pretty good chance of that happening somebody's always going to shoot you know when you're when you're negotiating you go as high as you can and then you come back down if you have to um so I think that that is a likely risk um the other part of it is I'm not clear on the role of Staff in a lot of this and this may be more I mean staff may say yeah what they're asking for does require this this this and this but it sounds like a lot of it is going to be hashed out not at the staff level because we enforce the rules we don't don't like I said last time we don't horse trade that's not our role you don't want it to be our role so we tell you we tell them here are the parameters that the code has here are the things you cannot go beyond here are the here's the wiggle room and then they can work out the details so I don't I'm not really clear on how much staff time that requires and I'm not really clear on how much um like staff report that sort of thing is going to be going on because I think that a lot of it is going to be the people who are at the negotiating table talking about why not so much staff saying I mean we can say it doesn't meet this and this and this and this and these are things they can ask for but I don't well and I guess that's what I'm that that's what scares me about this whole thing and has scared me from the beginning to to Conor safford's point they're going to be asking for things that you are through the normal process going to have to say no because you don't get to do that negotiated your job is to this is what code says this is so no is always going to be the answer I would say 99.9% of the time otherwise why do you need a CPD process or development agreement so your concern is concerning to me if if our experts don't have any clue what they're supposed to be doing are you suppos to still at the infant stage but she has basically um I think clearly identified what planning's role is is but the whole point of having the development agreement is to provide for those deviations and so once that's identified by staff then it does go to talk about what are those deviations and the extent and what might be palatable based on the benefit that's given to the community overall height and density are the the two biggie right but but who's making I think the Sarah's point and I don't want to speak for you but who's making that decision CU she has said staff doesn't have that ability to make that decision right so it's negotiated and then it's brought to the lp with the town manager the town manager okay that's what I was trying to get and staff works with the town manager and it's probably part of that negotiation as far as a support function to advise the town manager as to what the code requires currently and to to discuss that the overall benefit of this project is is to the benefit of the town to approve it it doesn't quite fit with our code um so these are the deviations then it would go to the LPA and then it would come to you for the final approval or disapproval but the benefit to doing that is that if there was and I use the example of the traffic study that might not be a requirement whereas typically it would be and she would be in a position of saying we we have to recommend a denial because there's been no traffic study done for this specific parcel my gut just tells me that there's something missing here that there's there's a piece of it that to me from the surface it just seems like staff is really being left out of the discussion they should not be well but they're Pro what I mean by that is you're providing here's what the code says and now the town manager is making the decision whether or not it moves forward from that to the LPA process then to the council what role do they play then once the manager decides that it is worthy enough to go to the LPA process if if they've already said it doesn't meet the code do they just come up and just reiterate the code and this white doesn't meet the code and then like we're doing now just the same process yeah but don't they do that during CPD process yeah I was going to say it's not only an advis um advisory role to the town manager it's also an implementation of interpretation of code and how it would fit every project that we're going to get coming forward and every project period is unique in of itself so every one of them that comes forward has a a different parameter to follow um and I think that's where like Sarah's expertise in our staff add a very viable part a very viable tool to educate um Andy moving forward as far as how we can make that decision as a town MH and then he can make that recommendation going forward from them there but I I think it kind of goes hand inand as the educational component to it um not all of us can be held to know everything about how it goes but how it how it fits together as as a piece going forward I think that's where staff is really going to come in into play there and and I I understand that and I think it's circling back to what we're trying to figure out here is the cost so through the CPD process it takes staff so long to review all the documentation your architectures all that stuff is done and they review it through the through the development of GRE problems they don't have to have all of that at that time they don't have to have all the the big thick plans for whatever story building they're going to build they just have to have conceptually here's what we're going to build we want approval for this this this whether it's density intensity whatever but it depends on the size of the project I think what Sarah was talking about the square footage um the extent of their review remember we talked about that a development agreement could be used for a residential property that requires five variances that are all somewhat interrelated um under the code um an enforcement or an application of the code would deny it but through the development agreement process you could um recommend approval because of the fact that it provides um a structure a development that is agreeable to the to the town it is discretionary on your part it comes out of LPA and and I'm just trying to get back to the amount of time it takes if they're doing the same review process as a cped MH what does that why should that cost then be any different I understand the cost if they they don't have to do traffic studies and they don't have all the other studies that the applicant would have to pay for that saves them money yes but as far as the staff review time if they're doing the same review that they would do for a CPD for development agreement if it's the same why is it why should there be a different fee I don't think they should but that a policy direction that we need to get from Council because I'm all about saving people money if they don't need to do a traffic study they don't need to do ab but if the review time is the same whether it's a development agreement or it's a CPD process why should the price be cheaper for a development agreement because they're doing the same amount of work I agree with you mayor um so I guess perhaps maybe the direction to staff would be um in bringing this fee forward to you if the development agreement uh requires a resoning than to go ahead and and have it comparable the fee comparable to a CPD well and I and I think that we've discussed this in the past I'm a proponent of the CPD review process shouldn't be the same cost for someone that has a half acre versus someone that has 12 acres yeah you know it's a different review Pro I mean it's much less that you have to review but currently we only have a flat fee for a CPD process so by changing that I think through the development agreement we're talking about now does that then be able to correlate over to the CPD process which then makes sense to me but not having two separate things well here's a question Sarah do you know what Hillsboro charges for a CPD for their base one it's 2500 um so our uh fee um schedule actually does include development agreement although we've never done it so it's interesting that we have a fee um it is what is that amount it's 5,000 and then to amend it is 2500 oh I see it there it's on page 41 and and for Hillsboro uh the key there is that you pay the 2500 but then any additional processes that you would need within that so um you're you have to do a special exception you have to do variances you have to do these other things you also are paying those fees on top of it so it's it's a cumulative fee did they make a distinction between residential or um commercial development agreements not that I could find in that code isn't the development order is 3,000 right not five development agreement amendment is 2500 and the development agreement original agreement is 5,000 it's on packet page 41 like four lines from the bottom Sarah do you know what what is the what's the cost for CPD currently I trying to find yeah so it lists a conventional rezoning is 5800 um but um a CPD would not be a convention conventional rezoning so uh hold on a second let me see if we can figure it out development order here's 3,000 I know that's what I was saying development order is 3,000 and then amendment is another 775 well that's what I'm wondering so that the way it's currently now the development agreement would be 5,000 then to have the development order would be another 3,000 on top of that that's a little much thinking Dan where do you see the 5,000 I don't see it's on packet page 41 it's one two three four line items up from code enforcement where it says code enforcement go four lines up it's in the gr development agreement original agreement two below it if there's an amendment to it it's 2500 yeah we're going to we're going to check with Kindra on the CPD because we're not seeing that we're only seeing conventional rezoning in the um yeah I couldn't find any I thought maybe I was missing something no it's it's not easy to read so while you're looking that up maybe we have a discussion about the idea of instead of one flat fee for every set property to me like I said I think it makes sense to have a sliding scale like we've talked about with fences and variances and other things you know again if I got a quarter acre lot or I got a half acre lot or you know it should be because you're going to have more review time for 12 acres versus a one acre so what those dollar amounts should be I think is the discussion to have what makes is keeping it at 5,000 for whatever size property and then working backwards does that make sense to you because again this you are the ones that are reviewing it you're the one that knows what your costs are that the town pays you to review something of a specific size does it make sense to use that 5,000 as the top and then work backwards based on the size of a lot um so another option would be and uh we discussed Nancy and I discussed this would be um where there there's a base fee but then the applicant also puts money into an account and then all of the reviewers the subc consultants and we we do it on we do it on basically an hourly basis however much time is required to do the reviews so if we need a traffic engineer the traffic engineer gets brought in and they basically pull money out of that account to go towards the required reviews um so if my staff does reviews it's an hourly basis if we needed somebody else it would be an hourly basis so we would be putting money into an account and then pulling out as needed to ensure that we had enough money to cover all the reviews so larger projects are going to cost more money and if they run out of money they have to put more money into the account um that way the town always knows it covers its own costs figuring out how much goes into that account may be tricky so that that is a model that um the town of Oakland has used um they're a very small town they have one Planner on staff and they pretty much have to rely on third- party Consultants so when a developer applies for a project they will give the Town Money uh so that the town can then contract out with the third party the third party does it whatever money is left that hasn't been spent gets returned but we have all that in house now pretty much right I mean it can be no well I mean so so here's the key is in house but when it's in house the town pays for it there's no way to assure that the prices are covered so the difference would be um so for example when we have to use tetr they do Bill through when we have to use um for one of our projects that you're going to be seeing coming up uh they wanted a different traffic engineer and we have to build through so the and we have in our code that we can do that however it requires staff time and order to do all the billing and then there's a pass through cost so there's an administrative cost to doing the paperwork and billing through as opposed to if there was an account and then everybody just basically builds to the account and pulls the money out so there's no there wouldn't be a pass through fee so there's currently I believe a 3% pass through fee um so there wouldn't be that and we would always know that the town was able to cover its costs the town would never be out of pocket on anything and staff could use that too so that we could ensure that you know if the attorney has to Bill hourly I have to bill hourly staff goes ahead and bills hourly we know how many hours went into that project we know what the cost was to the town so the town is never out of pocket for these types of projects so I guess that goes kind of back to what I was trying to say earlier does it make sense to have a flat fee up front because you're not going to do that deep dive into those things until it goes through until the LPA and the council process says you need to have this this and this and this to be able to get your acceptance now that could trigger this cost this cost this cost this cost that comes after the initial review so just trying to focus in now on what the is there a process to be able to have an initial review that you're going to look at because I want 50 stories but I know the code says you can only have two this is going to trigger this this and this if it gets approved so um to go back we do have the CPD cost it's 8,000 um and 1,000 per additional acre so if it's more than an acre it's $1,000 per additional acre so if you have a two acre project it's $9,000 so it's already so development agreement is already significantly cheaper than as it's currently written yes um so so one thing to think about with what you were talking about um there is an option for this initial development agreement uh when I was reading through the um Hillsboro code the way they do it is you can apply for an initial review whether that density seems appropriate whether you know so that you go through this this first blush where the town says yeah that seems okay and then figure and maybe that's when you come up with the total cost or maybe that's when you say okay you need to put 10 grand into an account for this project and then staff bill from it um and then say okay it looks like it's going to need and this could be part of the initial staff report where staff looks at it and we present it to you and say when we look at this they're not meeting this this this this they're asking for deviations here here and here then you would evaluate it determine if it's appropriate and what processes they actually need to go through what staff needs to review for what you know if they need a traffic impact analysis if they need these things that you know the code normally requires MH and then rather than it being negotiations up front with with Andy and Frankie it would be sort of uh what do you guys think and then you could give that initial yay or nay move forward or I don't know about that or go through these processes and you can probably get there it's an option it's a it's it's very loose compared to what we currently do okay so we're looking for guidance today so you can see within the two-day period that we had uh we had a lot of discussion and Sarah did get some research done and and the answer is not crystal clear so we don't have a recommendation today but we do want to have feedback so we can come back at a next meeting or the meeting shortly thereafter uh with a definitive so if there are projects waiting to use this tool we can move them through the process what what about here's a suggestion what about half the price of a CPD if CPD is 8 and a th000 do the do the developmental agreement at 4,500 I mean numerically that makes sense I'm just trying to wonder if if because I guess I didn't even know this and staff didn't necessarily knows that we already have a fee schedule for a development agreement so there's already something in place that people that are choosing to move forward I just don't want to make a decision too quickly that we have to go change again and we we did only give them two minutes or two two days to review this personally I would feel more comfortable because we already have a fee schedule in place for doesn't mean we can't adjust it lower or do whatever we want to do it later but I don't know that someone's coming in tomorrow to put in for maybe they are I don't know but you know I would feel more comfortable giving you the time that you need to give us a a thorough recommendation of here's based on what we know in the town what we know is coming what we know it's going to take to do it this is what our recommendations are for the fee schedule I personally I would feel more comfortable doing it that way because we do have this already set in place Vice may you think yeah well I'm just thinking I'm always I'm always a big fan of not Reinventing the wheel and we've heard repeatedly that both Lee County and and uh uh Coler County have these development agreements can we not just see what they charge just to get a sense of proportion yes I think with additional time we could we could come up with that information it's just we had that two-day period we wanted to take the opportunity um the other thing I want to add is that staff is working on the application itself um and the message really is that you adopted your procedural rules you have have your ordinance in place we're working on the application we're working on the fees so we are moving forward with your direction I just think is we're since it's brand new for our community even though it's in in our ordinance I I think just having some symmetry with our neighbors would be helpful and and so knowing what Lee County and and Coler County charge would be really helpful in terms of trying to be in in in in sync with our with our neighboring communities good is is everybody comfortable with that Direction moving forward give them a little bit more time yeah to use the fees that are in place should something come forward somebody comes by you know tomorrow or next week but there's already a fee there so already set that can work off that I I actually like that draw system uh would that be hard for finance department to I've worked with those everywhere I've been really and the work and when the money Runs Out you stop work and say about moving forward until you deposit more money and and if at the end of the day there's money left over you give it back I love that cuz if you know it's a it's a small project boom boom but if it gets complicated then we need to cover the town needs to cover the cover expenses the way it's always been in my experience as well you set up like a savings account U so what would what would that take to get that implemented immediately what well some people may make the argument that imposing or requiring a deposit is more burden and it's more restriced so we do have that sp250 that's hanging there um however it could be a voluntary um that's a good the developer might you know voluntarily agree yes I will give you $20,000 please expedite my project that's how it's really worked in other communities that that the developers are working with the town do the right thing go through the review process and not fight the local government so much right I I don't think a little guy can you know cough up 20,000 that EAS well that's what when you said that I kind of cringed I was like multi dollar project it's right it's little guy is not going to have to cough up 20,000 right right no but what what what scared me about what you said is the word expedite here's $20,000 I want you to expedite my project well because that's what scared me mayor if I can clarify it's just because you know there's the perception that things take a long time because they're being handled internally sure the idea is to have a third-party uh consultant that might be able to process it faster than the backload can we can we touch on that Nancy for a second because we do have quite a few projects coming out just for just for the everybody's education it seems like Margaritaville hired an outside entity to to help uh process their their application is that a model that we still use and is it is it available to developers today um I would assume that it is um I mean staff still has to do their side of the work um what I was going to say about like an outside entity is a lot of the outside entities we are working with right now are backlogged so even I mean everybody is uh very busy so even though we would like to be able to say we can hire outside Consultants but I'm sure that if if a large developer wanted to hire an organization to assist them the problem is um staff still has to do their part of the job because when someone is being paid by the client there is a tendency to uh vote in favor of the client so just being aware that staff would still have to do our side to in order to prot ensure protection of the town okay yes but in that situation the consultant is actually hired by um the town or the local government it's just the property owner I think marille hired spikowski who was had a local ties to to help them process that was contract with Margaritaville right margar margar paid those costs but I think the town contracted with the the vendor to help expedite the process I think I don't I don't know no yeah okay well Scott you were on the lp remember that maybe you weren't I seemed like they hired an outside firm to I thought they hired bill spikowski to help process their form at at the margaritaville's expense I thought the town contracted with them yeah just to help just thinking out loud uh gu was involved too wasn't he I think he was working directly for Margaritaville I think but I but that's been some time interesting so I think we're what you're saying Nancy is the I think we've all agreed that there's Pro fees in place to be able to move forward to give you a little bit more time something come forward yes U and and look at that model of the pay you know the account or what however it's worded that evidently because Andy is going to be the ultimate development agreement move forward to the LPA or not and he's for with that model it makes sense to me to work off of that model that he's used to if that makes sense yeah so as as far as the fees then if you had you know another week and a half with comparing those fees is this something that could be moved to the April 15th Town Council agenda or I deferred to Sarah I think what I've heard though was that Council wanted a pretty thorough review as to is the $55,000 appro apprpriate what is our neighboring communities doing um to give a little bit more detail I don't know if it's feasible to do that in a week and a half well and I think it's a am I is it fair in saying that we're not by whether it's in the next meeting or the meeting after that we're not holding up a process of someone that wants to go through a development agreement because it's because it's already there so we're not going to be restricting anybody to be able to move forward okay that's that's where I was going with it so as long as we're holding someone up on a decision that because it's already in place then you know I think if it takes you a little longer then it takes you a little longer but and if you want to move forward move forward is everybody all right with that yep okay we don't need to vote on that do we or do we need to make a motion no no no we've got Direction That's What We Needed okay thank you y next is the FEMA National flood insurance the nfip to authorize the town manager or his design to investigate the impact of FEMA's recent determination communication communicated to Lee County regarding a change in the National flood insurance program CRS rating and to take any and all necessary steps to mitigate any potential Financial impact on residents of the town of Fort Meers Beach and to authorize the mayor to sign any and all needed documents to implement needed action um we'll start with you Andy first okay thank you um first of all uh we've got no official notice from FEMA about anything anything it's just because a conversation we had uh last Thursday um between um I believe it's um February 13 2023 to now we've had multiple Communications with them can you hand that to me because I the timeline yeah because I think I just I want to read it into record so that I mean everybody else has done it we might as well do it go ahead but but the mayor will will allude to that I mean we've we have communicated with them it's it you know people what's the town done what's the town done we've done a lot I mean we've we've got multiple properties uh I provided the mayor few a little information a little while ago I think it's part of oh here this document if you don't mind I'll I'll be happy to talk about this of the 105 properties of the 105 properties that they not they identified with us five address there's no such address Andy could you set the 105 up number up a little bit more give us a little bit more that was the audit from FMA they wanted us to do to see if the the 50 5050 rule if they've been conforming pulled all their permits did everything they were supposed to do to build back to put their property back the way it was and this audit was completed when um I don't know how about we do the timeline first and then you can give the response to what everybody's talking about basically what we're asking is there's a lot of things that are moving very quickly right now because we're on a schedule and we don't need have time to have a meeting every week and every day so we needed authorization just to forge ahead in the best interest of the town so on Monday February 13th an email request from the state for a meeting with official state and FEMA topics to discuss the placement of shipping containers in special flood Hazard area substantial damage determinations and permitting of repairs market value property appraisal values property appraisals unpermitted work violations and code enforcement Town's flood plane management ordinance and the flood building code require regulations on Tuesday February 14th we received a letter from a 2023 sorry febru this is February 2023 okay then Tuesday February 14th 20243 we received a letter from FEMA Jackie Bell questioning leapa value determination and encouraging Fort Meers Beach to use methods other than leapa when making substantial determinations Friday February 17 2023 we had a 1:30 meeting that took place on Friday February 17th 2023 letter from FEMA Jackie Bell regarding Market values used when making substantial damage determinations and notification of upcoming site visit on Tuesday March 7th 2020 23 a meeting took place with FEMA and Charlie Baker regarding substantial determination letters Wednesday March 88th 201223 email from FEMA 9 Charles Baker providing notice of substantial damage on Saturday March 11th 20223 substantial damage letters were mailed out to out per conversation and meeting on March 7th of 2023 on Wednesday March 22nd of 2023 letter from FEMA Jackie Bell retracting statements made in the February 14th 20 20223 letter on Wednesday April 5th 20223 Town reached out to FEMA regarding substantial determination letters for guidance on Thursday April 6 2023 FEMA provided guidance also had a call with Jacqueline Henry on Friday April 7th 2023 a follow-up email from Jacqueline Henry noting our progress introducing sdap substantial Dem damage Administration plan template on Thursday June 8th 2020 23 a request for documentation from Jason Hunter on Tuesday June 13th 2023 Town responded with requested documentations for the June 18th or June 8th 2020 23 request on Saturday June 29th 2024 Jacqueline Henry reached out requesting an in-person visit for an update and to invite the sdap workshop in October to help us with our plan on Thursday September 14th 2023 email from jacqulyn Henry stating sdap training was cancelled and to be rescheduled for 2024 on Thursday September 21st 2023 an email from jacqulyn Henry to set up a day to meet on Wednesday October 4th 2023 a meeting with Jacqueline Henry to place requested uh SD list to be emailed on Wednesday October 4th 2023 Town emailed substantial determination list to Jaclyn Henry Wednesday December 6th 2023 letter from FEMA Jackie Jackie Bell requesting information on Friday January 12th 2024 Town submitted documentation to FEMA Tamara Hansen James M melino and Jason Hunter with communication from Tammy Hansen stating that they had received received the documents yet that they haven't received the documents yet as they were in an issue with access on Wednesday January 17th 2024 all issues with access to the documents were sorted out and FEMA gained access to submitted documents on Thursday February 29th 2024 email from Jacqueline Henry requesting uh substantial determination list updates Town responded asking if they needed permit list as well Thursday February 29th 2024 requested documentation was sent with a note stating that I am finally able to get through our list and update determinations Friday March 1st 2024 permit list was sent to jacqulyn Henry and Christina Miran Trot apologize if I butchered that name and a response email was to and a response email was to by Christina Miran Miran Trot requesting the following we are only looking for the following information number of permits issued for standard determination properties impacted by Hurricane Ian located within the flood plane zero property must be located in sfha zones a AE V ve Etc property is 50% or more damage including appeals progress in the rebuilding permits issued inspections appeals violations Etc and property compliance final Co issued elevated demolished Etc on same day Town responded that this is what we are in the process of com completing and it will take a couple of weeks Wednesday March 13th 20124 invitation sent to attend sdap Workshop from Christina Trot Tuesday March 19th 2024 Tom received registration confirmation for the sdap workshop Wednesday March 27th 2024 Crystal pul Buchanan Buchan emailed request to schedule meeting update on town of Fort Meers Beach nfip CRS rating Wednesday Thursday March 28th call took place to retrograde us out of the CRS so that is the timeline that we've had since 2023 now so to add to that we we were given um a list of 105 properties that were password protected which means we couldn't provide that document to anybody it was a federal document we could not touch it only one person had access and that was the flood plane manager so of the 105 properties um when when when were we notified of that Andy I'm telling you I'm sorry from from the 105 properties from the letter dated 12623 here's the breakdown five address no such address and we'll provide all this through through the clerk um two addresses not in our jurisdiction four addresses structures were compliant based on the elevation certificate review five addresses potential substantial damage will need enforcement 28 addresses code enforcement is required cases were opened five addresses did not find any evidence of work completed 51 addresses found to be compliant and not substantially damaged or improved all this to say that we've pretty much on top of everything and we're really at a loss as to why this happened there's been some questions I'm going to hold it up because I don't have it it's just a picture that I was sent of this document that came from uh it's a national flood insurance program Community rating system overview this is a document that's very old it's probably at least a year old we never received a copy of this at all so there there's there's some miscommunication of some sort in certain areas I'm I'm I'm sure that there's something that that we need to be you know to to improve on but I think from what I've been told and the part that I played since you know in the last 11 months um and I know Dan's got some more information that hopefully he'll share about the first letters that started coming out but we've we've been in communication with Fimo with everybody we felt like we needed to be in communication with taking the training they required doing responding we have a list and I was going through it yesterday and and and if you look at it you see address ABC see a sterile Boulevard U this is here's a picture of it here's the damage here's the building permit here's if there was a code enforcement here's this this all that documentation is submitted to them so we are really at we're just looking at each other what's going on I hate to say it that way but it seems like you know we're not not informed with that we got a call it's just a phone call at this point there's never been an official notice but we're working with the county the County's been very proactive they pulled the five um affected um um municipalities together Lee County Benita Springs Cape Coral Estero and Fort Meers Beach we've been on phone calls I've talked to I talked to the county manager last night Dave and I had a conversation last night we continue to evolve another um tool in the Arsenal is is is a a filing suit um that is something that the county had discussed and we've I've mentioned each of you so that's part of why we got to where we are today just in case there's things we need to do obviously we stay in constant communication individually uh anything we need to talk about in public we will call special meetings and have that so I don't know if you want to share any more about prior to yeah for those that may or may not know back in February of last year we have always been told through the entire process that as long as you're doing and following the procedures you had in place before the storm you will be compliant with what FEMA regulations are that's what we've been told since day one we were doing that we were following that along and then in February we received a letter saying we are no longer going to allow you or we strongly suggest you no longer use the leap of letter of the determination of the value of your of your home of your property of course we all remember the shock waves that that sent out and the communication that happened well what had ended up coming out of that was they just didn't understand Florida law that's the easiest way to put it and it got taken care of everybody was going about their business what you have heard in the timeline and through what the manager has said is we we we took their guidance very seriously in working with the state and working with the county we took their guidance very seriously we understand we all remember the complaints we were getting about being so strict and being so code enforcement and it was done specifically for this reason so that we stayed compliant and what you've heard is that we've done exactly what they've asked us to do we've been in communication with them anything they've asked for we've given them if they've made a meeting we've made the meeting we we've done everything that was asked of us and our view is that what they did to us on Thursday and then sub you know is no different than what the county has talked about or Bonita or anyone else we were taken back we have done everything asked of us we've worked very hard to get that rating and to take it away without communication without warning without uh this property is not in compliance or we feel this there was never any information given to us and I think that's where we're at now we're just trying to get information as to if we did something wrong please tell us we will correct it but we haven't received that information as far as I'm aware we have not received that information and to me I was trying to you I was up all night trying to think of how I could come up with an easy comparison and maybe it's not a very good comparison but I I was talking to Andy about it before the meeting imagine you work your entire life to get a perfect credit score and you maybe forgot to make one payment after 55 or 60 years and it was one day late the credit card company or or or or the credit bureau saying we are now going to take 25% of your credit away because you've been perfect for so long that now we're just going to penalize you and not listen to anything anything you have to say so all we're requesting is a meeting something to meet with them to say what of this list of these 105 properties that the town manager has written into play or read into into the record which one of these was the reason for you to say we no longer should be getting the 25% discount for our residents what have we done over the last two year almost two years 18 months that has made you make this decision on a Friday before Easter without any communication with us I feel it's wrong I feel our residents are paying the price for something that was not their fault I think our staff has gone above and beyond to communicate with FEMA and the representatives to give them everything that they want and it's my personal belief that I concur with what was said at the Lee County Board of County Commission meetings from their attorney who very eloquently said this is not America this is not how the process goes there's always an appeal process someone always has the right to defend themselves and we were stripped of that right by this decision and all we're asking is to have a seat at the table tell us tell us what it is you feel we didn't do we will take care of it if we haven't already from what I see and what you read in record Andy we we've done everything asked of us so please explain to us where we went wrong please explain to Lee County where they went wrong please explain to Bonita Cape Coral correct nobody understands and when nobody within a county understands why this went this way or how it got to it's not just one municipality it's not just one it it's everybody trying to figure this out so I would be I will make a motion to give whatever tools are needed to our staff to be able to fight this on behalf of our residents to make sure that that this gets re reviewed reversed and give give our residents back what they've earned is that a motion that a good enough motion um the recommendation I think if you could before you do that if I if I could um Frank and I even Frank even reached out the next day and we just wanted more clar we wanted we wanted to fight our our battle um and we reached out to um FEMA rep in Atlanta there was an fim rep on the phone we talked to them Frankie we pleaded the case we stated the facts we were told it's a final decision we don't have to answer your questions that's not that's not cool they owe us answers well and I and again we're very thankful for all the help we' received from FEMA every but this is something that you we're being punished for something we're not sure what we're being punished for and it just just not right I think I think to your point we're owed an explanation and and maybe they don't feel they have to give it to us but you and Nancy and and Becky do whatever you need to do in my opinion and i' I've said enough I'll listen to my fellow council members for a while I know I kind of got long wted there I think you need a second and I'm I'm going to give a clarifying second uh authorizing the mayor the town manager and our town attorney to take whatever actions necessary outside the scope of traditional meetings uh uh in in consultation with the rest of the council to take whatever action is necessary to reverse this decision that's your second okay further discussion C Woodson I I mean I have no discussion on it we got to do whatever we need to do I mean and it's the process has been usurped I think counc Safford no I agree we have to do any everything and anything we can to protect our citizens it's it's going to cost us a lot of money and for for FM to say I don't owe you an answer is absurd am my opinion Council King I've got a lot of thoughts have been running through my mind the last few days I mean I I'd like to know and I don't know that it's answerable here is what did sbal and Ford Myers do that we didn't do does anybody even know that nope um also you know it's it's very sad um when you working with a entity that should be more collaborative than uh um than what it is um obviously they have a bigger staff than we do if they've seen something that we haven't seen the impetus should be on them to bring it to us to say hey we found this let's get this corrected and and I'm not hearing that that was done and and that's uh that's a shame and I do I'm I've been in communication with a couple of those towns um and they're talk looking at me like when you find out what you did wrong let us know so we can understand if we either did it or we did something right and I'm like yes I mean they are even communicating with me um about hey what what did we do right I mean that's that's the same thing and so and I know that the information and and to your point you know we've given them so much information I mean they couldn't even send us a letter that said this is what happened you know a phone call that didn't not even know and Frankie was I had to pull him back we were on the but it's like I'll have to answer your questions yeah what what's even scarier is is we're entering hurricane season now and this happens to us what I mean we got to get everybody on board with this the one clarification councilman is the FEMA did say that they would not take any action until October 1st so they're G effective October 1st um but the right to doe process um has been denied denied and and again to retrograde you from Decades of work to to zero what what's the explanation and you know there just one last Point there's there's a lot of misin information that that's floating out there in the social media World um we our staff along with the county the core Army Engineers just like every other municipality in Lee County and Lee County worked with the Army Corps of engineer to do the substantial damage determinations so it's not that we did anything different than any other municipality whether it be santel Fort Meers Cape Court we all followed the exact same process so that's why it's even more baffling why some are being downgraded and some aren't and again no explanation so uh hopefully we can we can get a response from from DC down to to help us get some answers um so that we can get the information to our residents as soon as possible uh we've got a motion we got a second there's no other discussion all those in favor of the motion signify by saying I I opposed hearing none the motion carries unanimously next is final public comment is there anyone else that would like to speak in final public comment seeing none except a motion is there a motion to adjourn so move got a motion by councelor King I will second all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing none we adjourned at 126 --------- e e e e e e for good morning everyone we're going to call this meeting to order today is Thursday April 4th 20124 it is 9:00 a.m. all council members are present Town manager Andy hayatt Town attorney town clerk um before we rise for the Pledge of Allegiance John's going to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance um if you'll please rise with me out if you don't know yesterday a person that was very instrumental in our re rebuild lost her husband Senate President Kathleen pasido husband passed away yesterday so uh we're going to do a moment of silence for her and her family and then John will lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance thank you I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with libery and justice for all all right thank you John our first item for discussion is the comp plan discussion condo and Resort District yes mayor um I've had some conversations with some of the elected officials and I wanted to to bring this before us ask Sarah to kind of you know brush up on on this type of thing if we should have um um a consensus or direction to to research it further just to have a discussion about uh you know a condo and Resort District if that is something that is favorable just felt like it was something we needed to to talk about um at an M&P meeting and I don't know Sarah if you have anything to offer about what it would take to get this added to the comp plan and then Council can discuss so it it is very late in the process um to add an additional future land use District um I'm not sure of where you're look if there's a specific place you're looking at adding it or if it's just uh a text Edition what what was the concept I'm not really clear on what the goal is what what the thoughts are so if you could sort of explain where you're coming from what your thoughts are that would be helpful to me and then I can provide feedback to specific questions you may have well that makes two of us U Andy who I mean I had a resident that came and and actually had met with a couple of council members had had come up that he had met with them as well so we just wanted to explore to see if there was any any any Merit to going further or even doing it at all I wasn't sure aware where we were with the the comp plan and if it could be added what what needed to be happen just wanted to get it out here in the open I I know I can't make those decisions this had to be something that had to come from this level well what what was their thought process or what was their perceived from my understanding it was just to to have a district that's kind of what I what I think most people call the South but was to the east of where we are that that could be Condominiums I know at one time we talked about bringing in um everybody would would come in on their own Merit you know and vote you would vote on whether they'd go high what would happen I think this was just a gentleman wanted to just ask questions and as we talked to a couple of you they wanted to we just wanted to see if there was anything that could be done and and then nothing has to be done I just wanted to make sure it was done in you know full transparency so we could just continue to go because I know I don't have the authority just to you know to to make a change in the complain it has to come from here so I guess I only question would be Sarah is there a need to do it I mean I don't unless there was a specific reason brought to your attention as to why it would need to be added I don't necessar know we need to upend the apple cart for it so the the only reason I can think of adding something like that would be for density purposes um height isn't managed through the comprehensive plan um density is though and our highest density other than existing units that can be proven to be existing and redeveloped um the highest density is legally 10 units per acre if they exist previously existing and then six anything new um they're uh in Red Coconut and in Gulf View there are there's more density because they have some special allocations due to the fact that they had uh mobile home units there and they had quite a few mobile home units there so it's um I believe it's fewer units than we there but it's a much higher density than the rest of the island so if the way our density is currently written it wouldn't really be possible to build new condo units like tall developments like we see on the island um like further down things that were built before we became Fort Myers Beach um without a change to the fature land use District because there isn't adequate density uh with enough land um because six dwelling units per acre isn't really going to get you to uh a large condo so if there was an interest in having additional large condos um there could be the use for an additional future land use District but it all depends on what you you want what you're looking for all right since Sarah's up there John you have any questions I'll just have a comment that um the contact I had with the individual it seemed like they were expressing more about height and wanting to extend the district um what they're called the the condo Resort District further to the north to about where Ascension Church is and it density did not come up the conversation height is not controlled by the comprehensive plan um that's really zoning districts um you do have to do a CPD in order to get additional height but the comprehensive plan does not uh really truly limit height thank you m m yeah I have a couple questions Sarah this this this is an opportunity to ort of flush out a few things that I think have been have created some uncertainty out there um in the comprehensive plan there's a lot of discussion about height and then that and then when a CPD comes up people are are frustrated that all a sudden this new height is proposed but that the comp plan actually allows for that process through the CPD process but there is a reference in the comp plan on height that I thought would I thought was interesting because it's it's not often discussed and it says under building Heights C4 uh building heights yeah C4 building Heights the Land Development code shall limit the height of new buildings under most conditions to two stories above flood elevations exceptions may include the build back uh situations and different heights may be applied to officially designated Redevelopment areas such as Time Square Red Coconut Gulf colony and Villa Santini Plaza in those few cases where individual parcel Parcels of land are so surrounded by tall buildings on lots that are contiguous or directly across the street that this twostory height limit would be unreasonable land owners May seek relief through a planned development resoning process which requires a public hearing and notifications of adjacent Property Owners the town will approve modify or deny such requests after evaluating the level of unfairness that would result from the specific circumstance an es and the degree and specific proposals conformed with all aspects of this comprehensive plan including its land use and and design policies pedestrian orientation and natural resource criteria so so in this situation it doesn't limit or or does it limit where you can ask for a CPD you don't have to be across the street or contiguous correct no what do you make of this language that's in the comp plan now and what will happen in the future with this language um I can't speak to that until I I can pull up what it currently says but I don't have that up on my computer right now um 34631 B5 um includes portions of that language um but except it starts at in those few cases where individual Parcels of land are so surrounded by tall buildings blah blah blah so it does go on to talk about asking for Relief um I think that that is generally how we have viewed these height regulations because we don't want to increase height so much that we're casting shade blocking views making making the adjacent properties be overwhelmed by a giant building next to it but it does not limit your ability to allow a building to be taller than the zoning District through a CPD but it gives you special regulations in talking about Building height and surrounding I mean you need to evaluate what the surrounding uses are and how tall they are in in a in a related but unrelated manner since this is sort of the topic of discussion uh this is may be more of a Jason question but I was recently just this week and I don't even think it's related to this particular item on the complant it just happened to coincide I was contacted by Paula Kiker the owner of Lina reality and her building has four units on it and uh and she's right there just uh just south of the Church of the Ascension on a stero Boulevard and and she uses two units in that building and she has two vacant units in her building that she's uh interested in having retail uh uh customers or retail uh uh tenants one of them is island girl and one of them is West Coast design which uh helps folks rebuild and and redesign and and and their Interiors Etc um she was excited about this and has them lined up to be uh tenants but then was told that that her particular building on a stero was Zone Commercial Boulevard and that it would need to be rezoned uh retail I I'm wondering Jason just from a policy standpoint whether it makes sense to not this this Zone we're talking about could we this maybe from Church of the Ascension maybe Gulf Road down to the end of Santini Plaza would it make sense to rezone that retail so because we've got these challenges we've got KERO no if I can jump in I I thought that we had given Direction about adding uses to the Comm to the zoning District versus changing or adding allowing the uses and what was brought up was the old Wells Fargo Building and we had that discussion about changing it and I was just going to ask when you were done if if that is still the track that we're going down yes so um we what you're asking two three years ago we did change Maybe more than that now uh we did change that section of code to allow additional uses any uses that had ever been on those Parcels were allowed to go back there um so it wasn't just continually downgrading the uses like if you had a restaurant and then you went to an office you could only have an office uh you could go back to the restaurant so we changed it so that you can go back to any use that had previously been on that parcel we are looking at when we update the Land Development code we're going to add additional uses to that because we recog Iz that essentially the way this zoning District was designed it was to continually downgrade the property we changed it so it just can't get to any higher level intensity than it originally was um but what we would like to do is change it to be a normal commercial District where office uh you know retail restaurants you know maybe limits on you know music and you know types of entertainment that you have there but allowing more uses in that District so that is the goal when we do the Land Development code update okay and I appreciate that so so in in her particular situation she would have to wait a year till the comp plan is finalized or development code is different yeah or she can propose a rezoning or I mean that at this point that is the option but she's got a building that has two vacancies and the two businesses are not going to be threatening anybody what what were the businesses uh I I don't know what was there beforehand I I think at one point she had a restaurant uh so that would be key like if if they if they had had a restaurant ever they can have all of the options how would a how would a a retail store be more oppressive or more uh onerous than a restaurant that's what I'm saying it's less so um restaurant is generally considered to be the most in this zoning District restaurant is the most intensive use retail is the next intensive use office is the lowest intensive use so she had a restaurant at least one of those tenants could be since if it's retail since it's less intensive she could just go ahead and do it yes and I actually believe that we changed it to the entire uh parcel I would need to go back and reread through this section of code and maybe look at how we changed it um but I believe we changed it so that it's the entire parcel it's not limited to individual units because there's no way to for us to evaluate individual units because they change so that's perspective or she can do that now I believe she can do that now Jason is that your understanding because I think she had a different conversation with you or maybe there's a misunder she may not have clarified what had ever been on that lot and that may have been the key that's yeah to to Sarah's Point again she's going to have to I'm more than happy to come talk to have her come talk to me uh her prospective tenant did come talk to me and I I Del delivered the unfortunate news that we just couldn't allow her to move forward with the application but if Miss ker wants to come in and and see if we can come up with some evidence to show that she had previous uses in there uh because of the way CB's written we can offer her you know continued use of that if she can show that it was there before my experience has been that that that is the choke point though uh the records that the town has for uses they're just not there and so providing something that can show legally somebody was in there uh often comes down to just how far back does Google go with uh with addressing you know I appreciate that I think that'd be helpful and to the mayor's point I guess I'm what I'm trying to understand is so so perspectively in the comp plan are we looking at a a new use uh designation for that condo area from Gulf Road to say Santini plaza where folks could utilize retail then are you talking about zoning districts or future land use districts uh both uh the future land use district is staying essentially the same the zoning district will uh change theoretically in the future it has not yet but that is our goal but if if we have a I'm just taking a policy perspective here we've got a I think a a Monumental Challenge on the island with respect to retail space we've got kyero which has severe challenges sea grape which has challenges Santini Plaza which is plotting along but there's no other there's very few other opportunities for small businesses to to to to to enter the market on Fort Meers Beach and and and and offer basic services to our residents and it seems like we want to we ought to do something relatively dramatic to address that concern and as and in a future land use map that particular area of the island particular on a stero Boulevard or over to the gulf that seems like a pretty good place there's a lot of interesting uh pieces of land and old buildings there that could be potential nice retail opportunities where we could get some basic Services back on the island just wondering what would we do from a planning standpoint to help facilitate that I don't think that we want to change the future land use district from what it was on the map um I think that those everybody was fairly comfortable with what those were we can change the underlying zoning districts and if you would direct me to do that I can do that right now um but I guess my question is and and when you see we don't want to do that how do we address this this issue of shortage of retail space because the future land use map does not limit that that is the comprehensive that is the Land Development z uh zoning district and I think that's where the confusion is coming in and I think if I remember correctly that's why we had the discussions the way that we had them because it would be a faster route to be able to allow uses like you're saying by changing the uses within the zoning District in this case the Commercial Boulevard versus making a change to the Future land use map through the comp plan which would take longer and I think what you're trying to say is you can make the changes fairly quickly through the Land Development code to allow additional uses for retail if they aren't already there if they can't prove um much quicker than you could by going through a comp plan Amendment well and it isn't even a matter of needing a comp plan Amendment it's a matter of the zoning district is what limits the use so I mean we we don't have to the comp plan is fine those that District it allows the commercial uses it's really the Commercial Boulevard zoning District um and I had wanted to have a more cohesive approach so that we had you know input from all the residents and make sure that we we do uh a very thorough job of making sure that we are putting the appropriate things in these zoning districts making the correct allowances that everybody is comfortable with rather than just a few people who own the businesses because they're always going to want the most they can get but it is the adjacent property owners who are affected by it so making sure that we have you know a a full understanding of all the impacts is probably a good idea but if you wanted to advise me to make a change to the zoning ordinance I can do that well I think what you said earlier is very important if we'll just say it was a a hair cutting place and now they want to make it a dog grooming place whatever it wasn't the same use but it's not allowing them to add more intensity or density by changing the use within the footprint that the building is there cuz I think I think what we've heard from the residents so far is they understand Commercial Boulevard is Commercial Boulevard and that's where you want to kind of keep your retail space but they were concerns about adding more stories without having to go through the PD process and that's where their voice could be heard so I think what what I'm hearing and we'll list we'll hear from all the council members on what their opinion is but I would certainly be in support of if it fits within what the building is there and they could use it for a dog grooming place versus a whatever you know that I I certainly wouldn't have an issue with that as long as they're not allowed to you know go up and go through all the other things that they have to do through the PD process but I I think just for the public public education including my own this Commercial Boulevard designation doesn't allow retail right it doesn't allow new retail but if retail was ever on the property it's allowed but why would we be so restrictive like that because that's what the code I mean that's what to get Direction that's what I'm asking from a public policy standpoint that's a very unique area particularly right along a stero and and and it's primarily condos in that area who would not be as adversely impacted by a retail establishment nearby and it's primarily retail and condos on in that section there and we're desperate for basic services and so it just seems odd that we we so restrictive on that but I'm I'm just thinking through it out loud with you this is a very old policy this was adopted with the original Land Development code um we've tried to loosen it up over the years with with tweaks but there's never been a complete overhaul of the code that could really completely fix these issues um and and nobody's ever asked us to completely fix these issues um so it we agree uh it appears that the original intent was to continually downgrade that till there were very very low impact uses in those areas they wanted to have the high intensity uses in the downtown and Santini because those are the only areas that allow a lot of these intense uses it appears that there were a lot of intense uses all along the Boulevard in the Commercial Boulevard area the Land Development code that was adopted was adopted in such a way so that those could remain what they were but they could never get more intense so that that was the way it was written and that's some good history but I thought we sort of decided as a public policy uh Dynamic to spread out the Intensive uses along the island to help for traffic to help neighborhood nodes have places to walk to walkability take your bike I thought so so it seems like we're we're even though that may have been what originally was intended it seems like we're we're kind of looking at a new paradigm is that is that not true policy requ policy change requires a code change m a code change was never requested if we want to do that certainly do it what you're asking for right now is it the will of the council to want to change the code to say you can if that's what you want tell me that's what you want and I can do that I would be in support of that Vice may I would be in support of that too I mean certainly we got to have a much more extensive and robust conversation on it yeah okay yeah because everything that I hear from especially the condo dwellers that can maybe someday get back in their condos is there's no place to go for services like that for retail for that type of thing and to be able without sitting an hour in traffic or two hours so to be able to spread it out across the island from north to south or east to west or whatever it is um that makes total sense to me okay yeah I'm even in I'm all in on that on the Node concept but also I I I don't see why we can't extend that District down in the church I mean it's all it's almost there now but I I guess I what just was trying to figure out what's the need to expand the district if it's already in the district if it's already in the Commercial Boulevard district is it where ex so I guess my question Dan is is where where exactly what district is down by the Flamingo and Church of descension is that Commercial Boulevard or is that oh I believe it is isn't it he's going to pull I think I think Flamingo to Ascension Church basically cuz if you look at that plot of land it's a huge plot of land across from Ascension that's G that's Gulf Road on the Gulf side GF Road and Gulf Lane yep and much of that I would say 80% of it is destroyed you know it was taken down and what goes back there really depends on the zoning whether we get some retail in that area whether it just becomes you know large dwellings or whatever it may be but there there's a lot of area back there and most of it is gone and so now you just have open land so the area where the church was is um so that's the area between Indian Bayou and Mound yeah this is this is on Gulf Road if you can see the Gulf Road Road Gulf Road which is south of Shelby because that's all residential looking at the correct location Jacob is it possible for you to pull up and put on the screens the future land use map it's right over here I think yeah Gulf Road runs right into the Gulf of Mexico and is an off Sho yes the area that you're speaking of yes it's in the red yeah that that whole area is considered mixed residential which allows some level of um very low impact uh I guess the question would be and I don't want to speak for councelor Woodson but if if if if if somebody Wass to buy that property and and some of those surrounding properties to give you know so it's less impactful for any residents there and they wanted to put a restaurant there right on the Gulf of Mexico that would be a big attraction for people on the south end that may be a big attraction but it is a residential neighborhood right but it is but it's if you go back there it's it's a wasteland right now in in certain parts of it uh and and certainly we want to be sensitive to those neighbors but there's ways to put in a restaurant where it's not as in it could be very intrusive or it could be less intrusive depending on how you designed it so North vsto is the area that's considered the mixed use Theater District so there I mean that's going to be in one of the nodes um if you wanted to expand that south of there I mean that's encroaching on residential neighborhoods and I think if you wanted to do that you would need to change the comprehensive plan map the future land use map and you would want to talk to all of those neighbors MH because if they intended to have a quiet neighborhood on the beach that may change the Dynamics and granted there it's a wasteland right now but those are still residential property owners they still May intend to build Residential Properties back it might be nice for some people to have restaurant a restaurant there but is that the will of the people who live there that is something that we need to evaluate before we do anything like change future land use District or change zoning District District to allow those more intensive uses it' be interesting to know how many of those Parcels are are up for sale right now yeah there number up for Sailors one a couple that are rentals um I think the challenge just perspectively if we live always in the past we're never going to see any changes and I think given what's happened to the Fresh Catch beastro and junkoo that's the one place that somebody could eat and have a meal on the Gulf of Mexico that's gone and we don't know if it's coming back we don't know what's going to go in there it may be part of the Red Coconut at some point we don't know but going then going south currently and then for the next three or four years there's there's no place to sit in and engage with the Gulf of Mexico and we live on a Barrier Island so it's a little bizarre I would agree we've so I do want to point out that we've really really pulled back on what the comprehensive plan said the comprehensive plan had tried to expand the nodes when we were when we first came to you guys that was that was where we were going because before the storm that's the direction the council was going then when we came back to you there were huge concerns about the nodes they were shrunk way down and a lot of uses were taken out of them a lot of things were taken out of them because the will was to go back we can certainly go forward that's going to slow us down a bit though because we're yeah I think we're just we're just talking about the condo and Resort District here not not all the nodes I think we're just talking about this one here so but adding a future land use district and adding it on the map and putting it in text that will slow us down because we're already at the first hearing for the land devel or for the comprehensive plan so that would require us to pull back which we can do but we just need clear Direction like does everybody want these nodes to be expanded do we want I mean we really do need to talk with people whenever we're going to change their future land use District cuz these are owned properties this will have an impact I'm looking at so it looks like from the on the Bay Side from the church of Ascension down to Egret on the Bay Side again that is all Commercial Boulevard yes but not on the the other side is is PD there's a CPD there's multif family all pretty much residential on that side I'm trying to go and see if it's it's hard to tell on that one and then there's a little bit it looks like down across the street looks like it must be where the there's this Commercial Boulevard looks like it's the Windom or something or what was was the Windom um oh no that's not CB that's the zoning okay we're discussing future land yeah g expand that out yeah because anything but Sarah what you said is there are certain uses that can be used whether it be retail or other things in some residential zoning districts so if it's the mixed residential does currently allow and um we had expanded that and it looks like but then we contracted it again um it's going to be what is right now uh in the draft comprehensive plan is mixed resident or medium residential um so that was going to essentially allow the same types of uses but but a lot more residentially focused because we heard that those neighborhoods needed to stay residential so I think I think to the vice mayor's point is you could have currently in the residential it's RM not not mixed residential but it's RM it's listed on here residential mixed there are uses if you have a condo you could theoretically have a coffee shop or a cafe like the Outrigger had um RM allows uh restricted retail so no retail uses [Music] um if you had if you if it was already there well would it be would it make more sense because the zoning District's there and there's already some verbiage that allows some sort of re some sort of commercial activity to expand the uses within the residential so I mean that would be something to consider when we're looking at the changes to the to the zoning districts right so I mean right now residential multif family is open for residential or yeah for open for residential so all types of residences it's limited on lodging so you you have certain restrictions on what you can have limited on office restricted on retail which means the only thing you can have is an ATM by our zoning code that doesn't mean that there aren't other things in there that means that they're legally non-conforming so if somebody wanted to put something new in there that was a restaurant that wouldn't be allowed by our zoning code it's restricted for marine so almost nothing is allowed and then it's limited for civic so our our zoning ordinance is very restrictive on where it allows ret and that's what I'm trying to get at does it make more sense one for time and two for what I think we're trying to achieve at least what I'm hearing is allow a little bit more use within the residential mix or the mixed residential area to allow a coffee shop or to allow a t-shirt shop or to allow something that is not obtrusive or not it's not a nightclub as opposed to changing the comp plan and making in a district that allows a nightclub so to speak next to a residential area it does it make more sense TimeWise and realistic I mean you're the you're the expert here you you work in more other areas I mean to me it makes sense if if I have a condo and downstairs I I think of the out riger they had res you know they had they had a hotel but if it's a condo and they had a breakfast place inside that condo does that is that going to really be a a huge effect on the people around there versus changing it from a residential mixed or mixed residential to a Commercial Boulevard where now you get you could pretty much do whatever you want there I don't know that that's what we're trying to achieve as far as at least what well I I think we have to be clear when we talk about intruding into residential neighborhoods we're not talking anything on the other side of a stero Boulevard aside from the the the the the properties that face Aero Boulevard we're not talking about intruding back into those neighborhoods we're just talking about on the other side of Aero towards the Gulf of Mexico which is a pretty thin sliver of land and there's just a few homes back there in that area that that we're talking about so it's not this is not intruding into the traditional Fort Meers Beach neighborhoods this is just a very small sliver of land and very few Residential Properties would be impacted certainly we would want to be sensitive to those folks but but this is this is this is not some kind of a we're not talking about all the node this is a unique node it's a very unique piece of property a section of the island that's that's desperate for basic services and and and some kind of restaurants that if we could do it in a way that's respectful of those who are still there and there's not many um in that particular sliver we're talking about that's just something to to to be thoughtful about I mean I I don't have all the answers but since what's on the agenda today certainly worth talking about and I certainly see what you're saying but you know when you look at the map pretty much from Bay Beach all the way up to the church of Ascension is is almost all mixed residential or residential mixed however you want to call it with a you know CPD in there so to allow more uses in that entire stretch I think achieves what we're trying to achieve without focusing narrowly on one specific small area oh no no it would go all the way up to Santini Plaza from Gulf Road but it would just involve those those properties that are facing a stero Boulevard and many of those are commercial already uh you've got you've got very unique uses there you've got uh what's the uh the place the Ruby's Place uh the design Place uh inter interior unlimited you've got a you've got a retail place there and they're living above it so cool and Innovative the owners live above their shop right on a stero Boulevard providing a service we desperately need on the island it just seems like that that type of model ought to flourish in that particular section and I and again I think what I think we're saying the same thing could be yeah and and I think we can achieve that if what I'm hearing from you by loosening the belt a little bit and not saying you can only have an ATM you could have you know you could have the munchbox if you wanted to have the munchbox back inside the munchbox property is another great example well that's in the Commercial Boulevard which would fall within the expanded uses that we've already made the decision my guess is that is the only way way munchbox could become a restaurant because it was a restaurant before because that seems awfully limiting and and that is the way that code is written yeah that seems that doesn't seem to help us because every every place wasn't like the munchbox before that could potentially be a nice little restaurant so but I think we've given her direction that we're willing to change that or haven't we I don't know I think you've given me a lot of Direction um you need a notepad so so do you want changes so what I'm trying to figure out here is do you want changes to specifically the CB zoning District or do you want something different that's a complete overhaul of the uses code because if we look south of a sterile Boulevard if we look between a sterile Boulevard and the actual Beach what we see in zoning districts is RC that's residential conservation we see RM residential multif family RS residential single family we have a CPD um CR commercial Resort and more RM so if we were to change the way the use table is structured I mean currently right now the use table is very restrictive in what's allowed in different districts if it if it's restricted for retail it only allows an ATM um if it's limited so uh limited for retail is commercial Resort commercial Marina commercial office s SOS downtown Santini Village CB okay and CB has some weird things going on with it but um so if they're limited for retail they allow a work live dwelling unit membership organization and by special exception a membership organization by special exception Recreation facilities by special exception and temporary uses by special exception so it doesn't allow anything so simply potentially moving around what's Allowed by right you know actually allowing anything by right because right now ATM is allowed by right that's nothing um and that so you're not allowed to do anything until you're open for retail and downtown and Santini and see PDS are open for retail so there are two places on the island where you're allowed to have retail that's a problem that is a problem but I don't think that that's a problem with the zoning districts I think it's the problem with the use table right and that's and I think what you just said is is the most important thing I think that we've we've been going back and forth about our goal I think is to get people out of their cars and get them walkable but right now our code is restricting that from actually happening mhm and without making a change to the comprehensive plan we can make a change of uses within the zoning District to allow and Achieve what we want to achieve the walkability the bikeability to to get people out of their cars for the traffic and and to allow people all over the island to have a place to go to eat or have something a coffee whatever you know Bagel whatever it may be get a haircut yeah but I think that's something that could be fairly easily done through amending the or the the Land Development code versus changing the comp plan and expanding a district so my only concern with this is that we do want to look at this cohesively because like I've said before you really do have a Frankenstein of a Land Development code it's been changed and little pieces have thrown in and it's been cut apart it's really difficult to use and it's not very good um I really think we need to look at this very cohesively especially with sb250 in place because once we allow something we can't change it back right and so I want to make sure that we're so I understand the tension between needing to get this done so people can come back but also making sure that we make the right decisions about what we need to do and make sure that we include this the residents make sure like it doesn't have to be a huge amount of time but it is going to be a huge amount of effort to make sure that everyone is included everybody's aware and everybody is pretty much on the same page I feel like this group is is pretty much on the same page but without input from residents other than people who own properties and want to redevelop they're like I said they're always going to want the most because that's their income so that's reasonable but do the neighbors feel that way how are the other property owners affected so we I want to make sure that we do this the right way we don't just like go at at willy-nilly and make changes to the Land Development code that we can't take back um and I I'd like to know your thoughts on how we do that I would encourage you Sarah I know you're swamped but I would encourage you to walk that piece of land that that that track you've got situations where I'm hearing that at Santini Plaza that the hair salon is not coming back so there's there'll be no place to get women or men to get your haircut so so across from like next to 7-Eleven where the dentist office we need a dentist we need haircuts we need a veterinarian we need a do medical facilities we need there's a lot of basic needs we need on this island and if having lived across Santini Plaza up until recently uh we would never get in our car we'd bike and walk everywhere because we could get all the basic services and eat in various places including along the Gulf of Mexico that's a that's a quality of life that's a quality of place issue for people who live in that area and it helps on traffic and it serves those basic needs so that's that's I think it's important to see there's some very eclectic properties there that were once things that provided basic services that may not be there may not be coming back but if we don't send a message that we're welcoming that type of retail space um I think we're going to have challenges just from a basic quality of life standpoint so I guess my question is is the hairdresser not coming back because the hairdresser doesn't want to come back is the dentist not coming here because the dentist doesn't want to come here I mean are we actually limiting yeah there's comp they're complex issues but if we don't have compet if we don't have properties to compete with San Plaza we did have prop so I'm I'm not trying to argue I'm trying to make us think about like this whole picture we you know we do have a property a little further north of us that has openings for retail space that could have retail space but it's currently choosing not to have retail space Santini has taken quite a long time to put retail space back everybody's making a lot of financial decisions we can't we can't make them do um and if we if we allow it in more places are we now just spreading this out so that there have to be more parking lots so that people actually are less able to utilize these Services because they're not sort of in a the flip side of that is is that if if if if there's a monopoly on retail spaces between Santini kesto and and serr Plaza then then the cost of doing business for these small businesses is is because these there's there's in essence a monopoly of of locations if we can increase the number of potential options then the price and the rent goes down because they have to compete with these other areas so it increases competition on the island for the space and therefore that could bring the price down and it gives the small business owner a little bit more of an advantage to negotiate when there's such limited retail space now they're at a tremendous disadvantage and so it's a it could goes it cuts both ways I guess is what I'm I'm saying yeah well I think what I'm hearing is we're in support of of looking at uses um I haven't heard from everyone on their opinions on whether they want to expand the zoning District I mean changing the comp plan to do that I think is opening up a can that you don't necessarily want to open um but allowing some uses and I mean you're the expert maybe you can give us some examples of here's to Jim's point if you get time to maybe I'm I'm sure you've been down there but does it make sense to make the whole area a use or just you know certain areas within I I don't know so this is what I know um from a community up north that will remain unnamed um that is also a Barrier island that has a restaurant in a neighborhood that was once a small restaurant in a small neighborhood and now the restaurant has parking lots all around it they have to move everybody on little shuttles because there's no place to park the neighbors are very angry about it you know they were happy they had their little restaurant but then their restaurant became popular and they didn't like it anymore because now those people were intruding on their neighborhood and it was a quiet little place um so we we have to think about all these impacts you know what does this look like I know everybody theoretically wants everyone to walk and bike which is a great idea if they do it after dark they're probably not going to do it so a lot of restaurants maybe not so much a lot of bars probably bad idea um but we have to think about all the impacts I think that there are options for small scale things you know if we limit sizes of stuff um not far from my house in my neighborhood you know on one side I've got groceries and shopping that I can walk to on the other side I've got a little convenience store that's just sort of tucked into a corner lot and it gets lots of business and it's not a problem for anybody so it really depends on the scale of what you're putting places you know you know if you allow a restaurant to be as big as they want to be it will impact the neighbors there will be noise there will be crowds there will be traffic that's what happens same thing with a grocery store if you put in a full-size Publix in a neighborhood they won't be happy but if you put a little convenience store without gas pumps or even with gas pumps they're probably going to like it a lot of people would enjoy having those services near their house and wouldn't feel like it was a problem for them so I think it has to do a lot with scale maybe not as much with the uses you know I I just hearing you talk about how restrictive everything was and is um I think there was a time when they they made sure it was restrictive MH and I think that time has passed and now we're looking at a totally devastated Island that has to build back and I think to be able to add uses or whatever the proper way to do it the fastest way to do it to help get our Island back still keeping it you know I don't want to say quaint but still keeping it right sized if you will not a big box door not a you know strip mall or something like a huge strip mall but whatever way we can look at the possibility of expanding those uses in the shortest time frame possible makes sense to me okay um also something I wanted to note about that area that we were just talking about um the the flood zone may be an issue um just something to be aware of there are going to be some places where it's going to be very difficult to develop because of the elevation you have to develop to or because of the um requirements to be dry flood proofed or you know open underneath all that stuff so some of these areas may not see the type of development you want but um creating the option for them is possible I like that word options have you do you know where you're going now is yeah I I will take a stab at it and um we've got a lot of big projects coming up a lot of big projects coming up so uh we're working very hard to try to keep everybody on track um when would you like to see this do you know the meaning 11 sure we'll talk about it again I'll have a staff report for you SAR I know you've been working very effectively with the LPN this and there's some maps that have been floated about could you at least share with us some of these Maps so we have a better sort of working knowledge as to where you're at and where you're trying to head uh yes they will be on the agenda this afternoon oh for the LPA no no no for for the LPA so when you send them out to the LPA assuming maybe have Amy just send them just send us some maps just to get a sense of it's hard just I watch the LPA hearings but you can't see I guess I could go online and look it but it's nice to have a hard copy of a map just yeah and if if you're listening if you do watch it on your screen we usually do have the maps zoomed in so you can see where we're talking about okay but yes are these the maps that are on our website now they are not um I should have an email I have not checked my email this morning but I should have updated Maps when you get those could you just send those to the council as well just so we could see I'm not sure how I'm going to receive the files if they'll be sendable so I need to figure out sometimes they send it through a website and I have to download them and and do some things so I will certainly try to do that this this does not have to do about the resoning or anything but just what you said we have so many projects coming in so many projects I think it's a maybe an AG genda management issue when we get to that is do we have enough people for the next 2 to three years um to help with all this and it's I'm just throwing it out there from a organizational planning of what do we need what do we need internally to help you to get this done and maybe it's an agenda management item just stating a fact no I I afraid to ask I definitely appreciate that I know that uh Andy and Frankie are looking into that because that is a request that I've had for them if I may just address that real quickly I am I actually talked to somebody two days ago about a potential opportunity as a planner that type of thing I haven't even talked to Sarah about it I mean it's really it's it's a unique situation kind of like your situation they being an employee it'd be a remote kind of thing but um it's moving and it should gain a lot of traction in the next 10 days Perfect all right any other comments on this before we move on all right next our favorite subject lighting yeah U mayor in light of no pun intended or maybe pun intended John um we just had a discussion about development we had a discussion you know and this was past what April 5th 2021 um you know a lot of emails I get are like you know you know even the town's not abiding by their ordinance you know that type of thing so I just wanted to just dust it off so you know uh more than my eyes will be on it and everybody and is are are we as as tight as we need to be are we too tight you know what's going to happen because we do have a lot of development there's a lot of different things going to happen in different places that weren't there before so I just we just as a staff want to have that dialogue a little bit and see see if there is any changes that need to be made and I'll just kind of drop it and leave it there well if it's all right I'll start with it please CU When this came up back in 2021 Jim and I were the two that voted against against this because there were some things in there at the time that we fought we at least I personally I can't speak for Jim but thought we're being a little too restrictive for for people and for me it was a consistency there in the ordinance it doesn't seem like there's a lot of consistency for example there are some places it says cumulative cumulatively visible from any portion of the beach in certain sections it says that in certain sections it does not I think to be consistent it should say if it's visible basically if it's visible from the beach then it has to apply to this because when Chad was here he was talking specifically about you know where's that line of demarcation where is that that line that I need to enforce things I think by making it very clear that if it's visible from the beach that it has to comply with this if it's not visible from the beach then you don't necessarily have to have specifically what it's calling for in the ordinance to me that makes a lot of sense um just give you an example I don't know what page say section 32-15 the very first thing a it says all artificial lighting a fix to the exterior of new permanent structures construction or addition shall be long wav Lake download directed full cut off fully shielded and mounted as close to the ground or finished floor surface as possible to achieve the required foot candles but what it does not say is visible from any portion of the beach so there's certain section like that that don't say visible from the beach and therefore can cause I think what you were referring to Andy is some confusion as to there's nothing on my building whether it's residential or commercial that's at all visible from the beach why do I need to adhere to something that I'm not causing any issue on I think that could give some clarity to um to Chad and staff to to be able for enforcement purposes um another thing I have highlighted in here is uh it's page 11 I believe of our packet it says Co certificate the exterior interior lighting of new development and Window Coverings shall be inspected after dark by the town with all exterior and lighting turned on and then it goes on and on to talk about the window and door schedule which I agree with but is Staff really a window treatment expert why are we requiring you to prove that your windows meet the 45% tint or your doors we are going to inspect it going to look at the window and door schedule and now by the way we want to see what color your shades are I I don't think that's a position that we should be taking but that's just my opinion that's section I like I said it's on page 11 I I never like that window treatment part of it and then in section K after it it it says prior to the issuance of a certificate of occupancy or certificate of completion All Glass Windows window coverings again walls Rings yada yada yada do we really want to be in the business of inspecting someone's window window coverings if if we're meeting the requirements at the 45% tint level to what I think vice mayor says all the time you know are we going to maybe have some bad apples sure but to to make someone have to have there's no direction as to window what's specific window covering and you deal with the bad apples you don't make it blanket statement so yeah I so those are the kind of things in here that I think could be cleaned up there's another section that I highlighted um get down to it here and again it keeps going through using that visible from the beach in certain sections and then other sections it's omitted um on page 13 under Section D it says apply window tint or film that reduces the inside to outside light transmission to 15% or the darkest tint practicable why is that more stringent than the window itself that they have to buy why shouldn't that be 45% to be consistent with the rest of correct the rest of the code and didn't we change it all back to 45 well it went to 15 and it went back to 45 and then all the experts were in there and it finally landed on the 45% but this didn't get changed but for some reason if you have existing windows that you have to put up Tint that's 15% so it's darker than what someone that builds a new house has to have a window put in right it it should stay consistent in my opinion and then the the last thing that I have it's it's just a safety issue and I don't know how Nancy you could word this but it talks about um all other temporary construction lighting talking about new construction or any kind of construction needs to be turned off during night time and SE Turtle nesting season or if temporary lighting is deemed necessary during sea turtle nesting season it shall only be allowed from 7 to 9:00 p.m and must be restricted to minimal amount which I if if if construction site for whatever reason with the amount of construction that we're going to have going forward over the next few years for safety reasons has to have some sort of light what this is saying is you can't have any light on your property at all after 9:00 p.m. mhm and and I I think that's a a risk that we shouldn't take if as long as if it again visible from the beach if I'm building a house you know down on the back street somewhere and I'm doing the building myself you're telling me I can't work after 9:00 p.m. if I don't want to work after because I have to turn all my lights off and I think that that needs to be addressed you know if it can be shown that it is a when they come through that they have to work at night or they have to they can't work at night but if they have to if for some safety reason they want to protect all their product that's sitting there and they need light to do it you know so those are the few things that I had um now I'll stop talking and let someone else see if they have anything else anyone else I I would just say uh there's there's a I think an education process that needs to occur with respect to our ordinance as we make a public policy decision because there's there's a lot of Confusion by folks as to whether we're doing these policy initiatives to be Turtle friendly which is a a noble cause uh particularly as the mayor said that for lights visible from the beach uh this this cumulative lighting issue I think is related to the turtle piece but then there's a there's another piece of this puzzle that is not often discussed that I think creates confusion it's this Dark Skies initiative that we're supposed to be consistent with in our ordinance I think there's a lot of confusion between the Dark Skies initiative and what we're trying to do to be Turtle compliant and I think there's a education Gap there and we also have to determine particularly in the bizarre world in which we're living postan as to how critical that Dark Skies piece is given the the adverse circumstances the islands in so I I I think there's the whole education piece that that that could be helpful for folks uh particularly as we're trying to make policy decisions on these issues so just just just a thought no I I get it I I've always struggled with making policy decisions on things that are subjective and what I mean by that is well right now there's not a building there but what if they build a building and what you have now reflects off that building what if yeah how do you make a policy decision on what if well and I think to try to make it as clear as possible to your point Mr Mayor too when when you're on the Bay Side and you and you're you're you yourself are not causing any problems but theoretically cumulatively you along with all of your neighbors are creating a cumulative light that potentially could be seen by the beach these create vagaries that make it almost extremely difficult to enforce right I yeah and very subjective so very subjective you could build you could build a building and put your lights in and then now we got a building being built 3 years later next door and the windows they put in reflect your light off of their windows that go to the beach that it's like none of your control well and and at the same time there are re having lived on the beach for a long time uh up until recently there are real flagrant uh violations going on that that are just no-brainers you could I've actually been part of these Turtle crawls we could see the turtles literally headed towards the condo cuz some Knuckleheads got their blinds wide open there's lights are glaring and then we're at the same time spending time and effort on these this cumulative light it's so much vager and so more diff so much more difficult to enforce and it creates confusion it creates uh unrest when we've got these flagrant violations along the beach that seems like we ought to hit that lwh hanging fruit hard and first instead of kind of shutting down the the re Rebirth of the island uh it just seems like there's a we had to prioritize some of the threats uh a little better I think yeah again I think the more clear this can be Nancy as far as I've never been a fan of that word but the more direct we can be uh to help it our staff you know enforce things that need to be enforced the better off it serves everyone and I think that staff would appreciate that too because um it it is a challenge for code enforcement when they go out and they looking at the language and if it's clear and it's specific it helps them in their enforcement efforts so I agree with you so there there was another Point too on page um it's very top of page 10 and I don't know if you got if you included this Dan I if you did I missed it um it's under C and again it talks about um shall utilize glass with an inside to outside light transmittance value of 45% or less and be fitted with a window covering so I just think all the references I agree all the references to window covering we're we're oh F you meant F right you said c but I think you meant F no it's right at the top of it's right above but yeah and then as and then it goes on in F yeah so it's actually in both of those I would just I would just add In fairness to our friends uh uh at Turtle time I when we were having these debates and we were sort of talking about personal responsibility particularly for those who live on the beach the the trade-off was Hey listen let's let's everybody take personal responsibility but the the flip side of that is let's hold these people accountable uh and again if you if you have a a Condo building that's primarily uh vacation rental that's fine but maybe you're a good candidate for the tinted glass because you just can't get your your tenants to enforce you know turn close in the shades or whatever but but on the enforcement side some of our friends at Turtle time are very frustrated I think appropriately so because we just had poor Chad who's doing all this other stuff he's also the enforcement person we have to figure out a way during Turtle season to beef up enforcement to get those flagrant violators shut down I mean it got to the point where I'm putting up signs throughout my condo I'm literally going outside at night and then I could knock on the door of somebody's lights still blaring as the windows are open you know they're renting they don't know or they claim they don't know and and he just ask them nicely but my point is is that instead of punishing everybody because I think the majority of folks on the island are are cognizant of it are very sensitive and try to be good uh stewards of the environment we seem to uh we but but but but that being said there there are a number of flagrant offenders where there just not enough enforcement resources to to to do it I said you guys weren't here weing that we had some pretty heated debates on that and and the trade-off was for this sort of sort of personal responsibility approach to this was hey let's have some darn good enforcement and hold people accountable and that never seemed to happen because we just didn't have the resources assigned to it well as you know we made we made several changes from last Turtle season to this Turtle season in the in the Code Compliance area so places I've been before you know my code enforcement compliance officers would be out there at night going down the beach you know at 9: that didn't happen before that would be helpful and I think that's where we need to get back we need to start that here and that's part of the plan in in my mind and Frank and I will talk more about that plan but we're bringing in people now who are more um um trained and focused on on compliance and and doing those type of things so we've got we you know again we we continue to to elevate and and kind of change that mindset if you will of how we we we enforce things and we will we will do more in that area you know and another thing I I forgot to mention in here you know we ask for specifically a window and door schedule but we only ask for a lighting plan we don't ask for a lighting schedule and and I think I've been talking about this for years and it's if I'm a designer and I can show you that my windows and doors meet the requirements to meet the the environmental needs that have to be met why shouldn't I be allowed to do that with a lighting schedule if I can show you that during the time I'm required to meet meet the requirements for environmental but I can also use this same light to do something where I need to improve my safety at the biggest time when we need it outside of turtle season when we have the most visitors here and it's very dark if I can show you through a lighting schedule like a window and door schedule that I can meet those both those requirements why are we not allowing them to do that and I think that should be added to this as well not just a lighting plan because where you put the light is very important but the light that you're using to illuminate that spot is as important but we're not asking for that and and I with most people building a house have a lighting plan to go with or schedule to go with this and they can very easily highlight for you everything that is required and what they're going to use and it's very easy to enforce because you can look at it you can see the things that you need to see to be able to say they did use this light or they did use this door so all allowing that option or that flexibility to those people building back um to be able to get the best to both worlds to me makes a lot of sense can can I ask a question cuz somebody from the board of Riviera just called the other day and said and asked can we have a different level of lighting for non- turtle season of course they're right on the gulf can they the way it's written now no but I think allowing them that option outside of the requirement period to have that lighting is some if it can be done y seems reasonable to me and it can be done I think the reason why it was not done cuz there was a fear amongst our enforcement person that that they'll forget to to hit the switch for when the turtle season but that's no reason you know that's where enforcement comes sure that's mistakes do happen and people you know a simple conversation don't forget you know that's where we can do that but to allow someone to have a safe a safer atmosphere when it's not required to be compliant with turtles I mean we don't allow it is I don't disagree with you yeah and to give an example there was a a retail space on a stero Boulevard that no no fault of Chads he was following what was in the code was told they couldn't do something that is exactly what we're talking about it has to be this year round and to me that just doesn't make sense if I can outside of when I'm required to do it meet that requirement within that time frame I should be allowed to if I want to make their light blue or green or red during Christmas I'm outside of the requirement of the environmental needs and requirements why shouldn't I allowed be allowed to do that so so that's kind of where I'm going with it as long as everybody understands what I've been babbling about yeah absolutely I totally agree with that totally totally agree because I think we there's not a person sitting here or the person that lives in this island doesn't want to do what we're required to do but it doesn't mean you should pigeon hole yourself into one specific thing that doesn't allow you to do something else or something greater outside of when you're required to do something and like you often say especially with technology today yeah I mean it's I think this would give clear direction to Chad and staff that you know it's very easy to follow this if if anybody that's been out on the Gulf of Mexico in the boat at night it's not hard to see it's not hard to see what what uh what buildings aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing ccor Woodson anything else to add no I think I'm good counc Safford I'm good thank you counc King nope you just discussed my life before this so that was what I that was my focus for the last couple of years aw being on the Gulf of Mexico or what part of it uh the lighting the enforcement doing what uh the vice mayor did putting up signs in the elevators going out at night checking the buildings help us help you vice mayor Deputy dog I think we've covered it thank you all right agenda management Conor King anything you'd like to add to agenda management not at this time vice mayor atle I have nothing additional Council King Woodson looking the wrong way um no I think I I already spoke of you know the organizational thing but um and I'll get into my other thing when we get to our next meeting so okay counc Safford I'm good thank you the only thing on here we talked a little bit at the meeting on Monday about adding a discussion of a sterile Boulevard plantings it'll be on okay yeah it just didn't get on didn't get to this part okay that's the only thing I have at this point to add I'm just going to you may be getting ready to do this but I was just going to suggest maybe Amy before we sign off have Amy read what's on the agenda for 11 o'clock for people who want to come back and watch just so so people talk to this before she sure yeah um so the the Strategic Council strategic planning session um right now we're shooting for April 29th so we'll be more information coming in the next couple of days and yeah I don't want to get into many details about that that potential Staffing CH uh addition but uh um because of you know people might be watching that this person works for you never know so I I just want to make sure you know we are I've been had a lengthy conversation I know this person's background uh aicp certified the whole nine yards been doing a lot of similar type work Beach Community and things like exactly the same almost not post disaster but but really somebody that I have a lot of faith in and I'd already hired them once so I would be happy to hire them again see looking for a meeting on the 29th you said that is correct at 9:00 correct okay I don't have any issues with that all I have how long do you think that meeting what are you thinking like 9 to 12 9 okay planning 9 to 12 yes ma'am okay all right if there's nothing else John move to a Jour motion by read that first I'm sorry you're right so people don't get confused it's kind of bizarre it's kind of a bizarre morning yeah in the chamber once it's in the chamber so at 11:00 we're going to reconvene to discuss what Madam clerk uh at 11:00 we reconvene to discuss resolution 2456 which is 450 Harbor Court rude shrimp yes um that was moved from Monday to today then we are also going to discuss possible fees for the development um agreements and then the recent FEMA happenings in the news about the okay that will be on here um God so I have a question if all parties are present that need to be for those discussions can we just take a 10-minute break and continue on instead of waiting 45 minutes no unfortunately because of the advertising requirements okay all right got a motion to adjourn by councelor King second seconded by Vice May adol any other discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing we are adjourned at 10:12 see at 11