##VIDEO ID:nRoxbS4ErBs## public Mee when you get a chance a roll call please um AR Schmid Tel May Kramer Bob War loer Vanessa Jones John hling um David Trix Robin sudam Stephanie PR did I say your name wrong it's knew it when it came out I was like that doesn't sound right as it was no that's wrong sorry about that John Moon yeah okay did I miss any John herling did I get you yes okay oh St D you're here how are you good next proba comment Bush open the meeting to the public have a second second favor hi okay meeting the public so um Zach lickman had asked this afternoon he remember before he talked about um preparing a presentation about an observatory so being that we're here and we didn't have that much he wanted to ask if it would be okay if he discussed it in public session he has a few slides if that's okay that's right okay all right you want to just sit here or do you want me to just tell me when to hit the I can just tell you your name again Z liman lickman l i c HT of the East Millstone liman m a n n East mstone the astronomer liament yeah um thanks everybody I'll try to I'll run through this quickly because I know you'll have questions I wanted to give you sort of a sense of possibilities that we could do um and sort of lean you in directions that I think would be really beneficial um so to have an observatory again this would be at John Clyde open space observe that area so I want to give you an example of an observatory that exists to put something in your mind it's called the geov Val open deck Observatory you go to next slide there too that's a nice view of it here so to make sense of what you're looking at a padded area so we have concrete on the ground and we have in the center telescopes these are permanently mounted this roof slides and retracts actually the whole building does we're not going to do that I'm going to give something a little more simple but this is to give you an idea of what we're talking about essentially you have a designated area you have permanent fixtures and you have a building that will open and close um that that really benefits a lot of things and we can get a lot out of that without putting an investment into a what's called an observatory Dome that costs a whole lot of money to BU build and a whole lot of money to maintain by a specialist we don't need to do that to get a lot out of this go to the next um what we would be doing here would be essentially three things observing with the public at night with telescopes observing with the public in the day we'd have regular programs of workshops and presenters and guest speakers just like other facilities do and we'd also have remote access for professional astronomers we would use a telescope that's large enough that the astronomers in the Department of astrophysics at Princeton who I'm talking to are interested in collaborating with us on this as well as um United States Air Force Academy they have a physics and uh Department that would be interested in collaborating with us and the reason we would grant them access to our facility remotely is so that when they are working on different projects they would be involving our students our high school students in particular on here's what I'm looking at here's what I'm researching here's my project and you can be involved in some of that work um this is really a facility to bring people together around this really cool subject of astronomy everybody's excited about the Northern Lights when it happens everyone's excited about the comet that my group right now is outside looking at um so that's kind of the use of this facility here's an example of a very large 1 and a half meter telescope when we say 1 and a half meter we're talking about the diameter of the primary mirror the eyeball that's collecting all the light um that's to give you an example of the size and the scale uh you go to the next one this is a 1 M telescope a bit smaller very capable scope very capable system that will give you everything you'd want in need in a telescope um and allow us to collaborate with universities and get them involved with our students people say you can't do astronomy in New Jersey there's too much light pollution every picture here is taken from people I know this is body ruget this is my picture of Saturn these are images taken with telescopes from New Jersey go to the next one couple of examples just to frame what's possible okay these are taken with much smaller telescopes but these are hours of stacking images to develop this but it's possible two main reasons it's possible is because we have technology now that allows us to look at narrow band white light um suffice it to say were capable of cutting through a lot of light in New Jersey that we didn't weren't able to do 20 years ago go ahead uh couple more [Music] examples but we're not just Imaging at night this is a solar telescope you can slide one more this would be a telescope we'd also have one like this for daytime use say what do you look at in the day we look at the sun and the Sun is the most dynamic celestial object you can possibly observe every day it changes an nextcell um this is what the Sun looks like through a solar telescope this is what students and people would be seeing our star to their naked eye through the telescope this is what it looks like and it it's knock your socks off I have a scope like this that I bring to um businesses and Outreach programs and I do this solar astronomy work because a lot of schools say I can't bring kids back at night I don't want to bust them at night what can we do in the daytime really cool stuff got the next this is something really neat this is a a series of pictures taken of the sun closeup every picture is taken about four minutes apart and what you'll notice is at the top we don't have too much going on but soon we've got this bright white Flash and this thing that protrudes out here by the way that's about three or four times the size of planet Earth that thing that's popping out that's the stuff that caused the Northern Lights we're talking about space weather this whole series of images was Tak in about 1 hour so our students would log on in their classrooms the teacher would say yeah it's remotely we got a go signal from The Observatory that everything's operational they Slide the roof open we're looking at the sun in live Imaging time and the students are able to see Dynamic changes on our star it's interesting it's relevant it's engaging this is my English teacher coming out right now but I can promise you when students are engaged in an activity that's relevant and going on right now it's an enduring experience for them it lasts it sticks with them so you couple that with projects they can look forward to when they get to high school to doing real research with e what Princeton you're going to have something really special this is an example of a rolloff roof Observatory essentially think of a garage where the roof is on a track system and it slides open and slides closed you can automate it the same way as you automate your garage door the garage door motor that opens that door up and down you do it for your rooftop this is more like the style that we would build compared to that first picture I showed you it would be a little larger than this this would hold the larger telescope inside of it but that's the kind of structure we're talking about I show you this example because last week we met um Bob you brought up a good point my DPW guys can't build a dome in Observatory but they could build they built a concession stand they can build regular PL stuff this is the kind of facility buy plans for that New Jersey astronomical Association the next plan that they're building they go to What's called backyard observator.tv some giant aluminum Arc thing that goes on a dome somewhere this is what we can build that that is an investment um on the low end of Finance but really high yield because we can put phenomenal equipment inside of it um why do we want to build a rolloff roof compared to the big dome a number of reasons I just mentioned but simple in design easy materials it's accessible it's Ada accessible we don't have we can put a lot of people into a big room that's like this times two and we can all be there working around and using this telescope um live in a dome you can fit maybe 10 or 12 people around it and you're squeezed in and you know so there's a lot of probes for this um also the telescope system itself it's nice when its ambient temperatures reached quickly domes have big giant ventilation systems and fans in place to keep everything happy and operating the same temperature inside as outside this you roll the roof open in 10 minutes you're go so there's a lot of reasons to go with a rolloff roof design not just finances but it's actually a good system next to the observatory with the telescope ideally we would have a facility building where you would have a space for a classroom presentation chairs we'd have guest speakers we would have workshops and programs regularly available right there this is sort of your welcome center um people who are used to going to John Clyde and doing birding this would be a great place because we would have a bathroom here we need that facility to sort of have all of that and make sense of using the observatory that's there that's basically just what we would do there costs there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle but they come in these categories uh the telescopes and Associated accessories that's your big cost because we're talking about real Observatory equipment that's very capable then you have the observatory building itself that rolloff roof structure and then you have the facility Center um electric we'd have to run electric there Plumbing we've got to run plumbing there for a bathroom um septic and it's going to have to be septic because sewer you can't reach sewer there that's that's the nature of where it is um we could pick a spot that's sort of closer to the street somewhere and more accessible for electricity and plumbing at the expense of all the other reasons why we're there for John kin in that spot for an observant so that's kind of a tradeoff we'd have to live with next slide I want to give you a sense of some numbers and tell you what these numbers really are the First Column here of these numbers with the telescopes that is your biggest and best telescopes that is your Rolls-Royce that is the one and a half meter that picture of the two guys standing in the beginning with the big giant telescope behind them and the biggest solar telescope to do all the kind of research we want that brings in in collaboration with other universe that's the Rolls-Royce option that's like $2 million worth of equipment that's a big number but that's the reality of that uh Choice The Observatory itself that rolloff roof materials alone are like $50,000 it's a big garage there's not complexity to it it's wood it's shingles it's rolling casters it's so 50k I put it to 100K in materials would DPW build it that's something we can talk about right um we for bid or you know so that's that's kind of why I'm here and you guys are going to have questions about that we're going to work that out the facility that other separate building maybe closer to 250k more materials plus we're going to do labor then we're going to put that out for a bit um electricity water we talked about so the total you're looking at just over 2 million for the Rolls-Royce option the pair down version that's still is Observatory class equipment and completely capable it's closer to one in a qu and most most of the difference between those numbers is really choosing the bigger really big telescope or the regular big telescope that's essentially where those two big numbers come from there's a little difference in the observatory the rolloff roof building would have to be a bigger structure but that's not substantially more money TC that's kind of I kind of ran through a lot at you but I wanted to kind of give you everything and let you guys questions where we go from here I hope it's somewhere together I have one question oh I'm sorry go ahead you go first I what is the major difference between the Rolls-Royce other one is it what is the major difference between the two I mean maybe it's best for go for your bucks for the uh for the uh 2.3 compared to the one 1.2 there are a lot of advantages the main advantages is light Gathering Power and the ability to resolve things that are faint and small so the bigger telescope can collect more light quickly and when you're trying to see faint fuzzy things that's very important but you could you could have the two telescopes side by side and just let the smaller telescope collect light for much longer to get something similar but it will never achieve the same resolution picture your your 4K TV today that you have compared to the one you had 10 20 years ago your resolution will never be there resolution how fine of the details you can see in these objects and the studying and research you can do with them is a function of aperture there's no substitute for aperture so yes um you mentioned that um Prince then and the other group would could collaborate with us and I'm wondering this be a financial question whether it's appropriate or not but would they be willing to donate money for something like this and that something Bob that would be acceptable sure um yeah if Bob wants to accept money which I think he probably um yeah Princeton and it we're really early talks now we're talk talking to like the chairperson and the people anyway um the short answer is yes probably something how much and what percentage I don't know yet but I think so the US Air Force Academy less So based on our conversation we had so far but not entirely it's not a no the door but I think Princeton is more likely to yeah maybe even match some of our funds you approach reders at all I sent out an email haven't heard back from them yet I can kind of go back and forth a little more yeah I think so and maybe pick up the phone yeah um yeah so and and I'm happy to dig I I messaged we got Ryder straight there's like half a dozen easily that I've been talking we are the State University and we are a municipality so I think it and also are you looking into grants um I'm open to the idea but I've not dug into who can fund this for Grants National Science I think if you went did some Grant shopping and they came back to the township and said I've got this much covered can the township help yes court assistant so this is something that you should always keep in mind when you're doing cost estimates for something that's done by government we pay prevailing wage unlike your estimates and I will tell you that this is beyond the scope of our public works department for construction this would have even even uh you know uh something other than a preconstructed shed that we buy at the Kingston Shopping Center in on 7 it then becomes something that would be uh a bid it's required to be prevailing wage when it's over a certain amount this would certainly be over a certain amount so I it it needs that those things need to be consider considered when when you do cost estimates um I I will tell you and you know this this committee has had these kind of conversations in the past it it can be a very eye-opening experience when you go through the bid process for uh government construction on on anything um there's there's bathrooms at the Little League fields on theal street that are literally a prefabricated concrete structure with um you know two stalls for a women's room and two stalls for a men's room and the connections to sewer and water was over a quarter of a million dollars so I I just I I I hesitate to to be you know Debbie Downer here but the reality is is that costs are much more significant for construction projects now the the the telescopes that's you know that's your Billy Wick so I'd say that you you know better than any of us here what the costs are of those my question about the telescopes are you talk about technology what's the anticipated useful life of something that you're purchasing for um $2 million Dees and and these companies ASA and plane wave the ones I'm pointing out do this they when when you buy that you're buying a system from them including like 24/7 tech support they train you on how to operate it there are maintenance plans that they can offer should you want that you know so it's a whole system because they do that for territories around the world what about the uh 725,000 same thing yeah same thing it's it's paired down size the product is smaller but you're buying their system I'm talking about is it 20 years also something like that yes yeah yeah so um I can guess but I'm asking you um what is appealing about this particular piece of property if you're working with people in Princeton what is interesting about this particular what benefit does this property give you yeah so a number of things number one you have wide open Skies there's no direct street lights or Farmhouse lights or any lights to it so your only light pollution is the sky glow itself so you you know you can't control that part of it you can only control your local environment um number two and and a very big one if you've been to John CLA especially at night or the evening you come out to the parking lot if if you look West toward the canal side you go out to the tree line and it dips lower down to Hillsboro if you go east it's a slope down you're basically on a very soft Hill where the parking lot is what that allows for is a smooth laminar flow of air and that keeps your local they call it atmospheric seeing very calm you want to look at a penny that's in the bottom of a swimming pool if it's calm and still you can see right down to it if there's kids splashing and playing in that water clear water it's turbulent you can't see the penny so John Clyde offers a very nice clear non turbulent view by its nature in that spot right there so why pron University I mean is one of the top universities in the not the country the world why are they interested in this they they outgrew their fac they have their own Observatory I mean uh they do so they have access to other observatories but they're local they're observational um course observatories um the lady that I spoke with the chairman Susan Duncan she says essentially they're looking for a new spot because they have trees they've got no space they're they're they're Compact and they need an open field and we have that down the road so that they can P for it and that may be the case but we're early on that so and all of New Jersey is [Music] um I I don't know that you really need to go beyond what's there already um Hillsboro is in the other side so it's out of our prview there uh the space that is currently there is plenty comfortable enough Elbow Room for that facility so across the river is actually Montgomery not hill bro oh yeah you're right but so much similar to ours that large acre residential or agricultural I wouldn't be too concerned about it but likewise you're in control of your own zoning and you know that without sewer it's very unlikely that you'll see any kind of significant development anywhere near the property itself what kind what a big piece of of insurance um would we need for something like this and can you give an idea of what it would cost the township I mean we have you know we add things all the time as far as value we're a member of a joint Insurance Fund at as far as casualty and and property here is just it would be added to the list of literally I gotta be honest with you hundred million more dollars worth of assets you know so it's pay a million dollars a year for liability and Workers Compensation Insurance so it's not I don't think it would have any significant impact the youth center is a lot more than that I guess my question Mr lickman is what are you asking of us are you asking the township to build this for the township to build it for your Club to build it for Princeton could you refine the sure the ask would be that the township would build it for the township the equipment if Princeton would like to um come into this they would either we would grant them use of equipment that is ours townships um or they would potentially pay for the telescope but we would build the facility and everything there for example um those are kind of the two directions we started to talk about um it would be the the it would be the townships the club would operate train people do workshops use it um help people learn all about it and have a great experience with it but I want this to be the towns I want this to be students the teachers the sence Department Eric seagull and I were we're going to do a Power conversation on this um so the Board of Ed may also contribute funds to this we're going to talk about that too so these are all initial costs right this is not once it's built then there's got to be there's maintenance costs and everything else beyond that who pays for that again because it would be the towns um but these you know I want us to have high yield investment right we should be getting out of this a tremendous number of benefits particularly for our school students but for all of our residents in general where where where John Clyde where do you want it oh at at the particular spot yeah um past where the parking lot is right now just uh south of where the parking lot is where is the horse Park that direction not not much further but there average an acre for preservation how much money yeah 40,000 depends on what you talking about acquisition you talking about Farmland preservation what and where is it that that all matters it's where down there we recently did Farmland preservation on copper mine Road for copper mine farm that was about6 to $18,000 an acre that's her Farm yeah that was just Farmland preservation open space a little more yeah open space I 25 say 25ish to 32 is maybe I think it's the most recent Farmland open space down there down there I mean but depends on where you're talking about like I said down there we're looking specific 40 acres worth of money $725,000 for the smaller one would be for the whole package at 1.25 well so this is again you have to look at its context so the property that we purchased off 518 you know we we always call it the Farm Credit East property that was 120 Acres about 128 okay 128 acres and we paid 1.5 million for it but that was the bargain of the century right I mean it was not something that was kind of I wasn't even really I would call it an arms lamp transaction it was a foreclosure that they didn't want to have anymore and they felt you know philanthropic in a way and give a give us a good deal on it um I I think we're looking at down down in that area for land that could be developed and it's like $200,000 an acre I I should correct 200 $250,000 200 2 250 for a building lot rr3 or rr5 is what most of it is and you're looking about you know maybe up to 300,000 for a building lot that's 3 acres 5 Acres depending on the zone five five buildings five houses five houses five houses oh for 1.25 yeah yeah that's what would it take um more for us I guess to actually make this sustainable like I'm wondering I'm thinking about the Environmental Education Center Bunker Hill There's issues that that would be sustainable unfortunately due to physical constraints right now because of a bridge that is no longer able to carry weight the school wants to use it we're just in the midst of now dealing with the D to go through all of the efforts involved to get permits to replace a bridge so that's why that's not currently being used but the Board of Education was using it um up until the time that the bridge was deemed uh unsafe to take school buses across it's going to be on the same timeline as katala probably um well I mean we're pushing on it and we've got you know we we've been do dealing with it as best we can it's it's not an incline replacement that bridge that was there was one that was there when it was a house so it's a little bit different but I thought the facility also I guess I'm the reason I I bring that up it's just like I know that's hard like I know it's hard these things come up so you're absolutely right not being us be using it who owns it I mean who literally owns it but like if we were to have something like this no the issue is my and and this is where we've had these discussions about the Environmental Center then the school went back and started to use it for educational purposes and bringing classes through I mean the the the caretaker on that property is a teacher at the with for the Board of Ed um but this is one where there would H you know this is we've talked about a lot of different things that over the years that would require people right you know these things don't come without those other costs associated with operating a facility uh hello um so that facility would would require people now we have our Recreation director down at the other end of the table here and it would mean that you know to run programs would require people salaries yeah well I mean there's a lot of different ways to do it uh not all of our programs are run by our own employees a lot of times we go out to bid for program uh programs that are run by outside organizations or outside companies uh that's where this is what I where that's the question right there certainly a capable system and that's what other Scopes are using you could you could rent time um if it's how much we get um I'd have to get you a hard number on that let me do something because it's it varies right um if you're in Chile you have different Sky you're looking at different things if you're in e now here's the thing there are not many on the East Coast so you'll be looking at a different part of the sky than the West Coast would earlier so there could be more demand in a sense to jump on an East Coast telescope but I don't want to just say that that's my that's what I think the the issue is revenue generated by this facility would go into the open space trust to offset the original costs that to construct so if there if there was some if there was some sort ability to realize revenue from the facility then that would you know maybe make it a little a little more palatable is that is that the word I can get you numbers on what that is I'm just there's there's a lot both sides yeah and also just on on you're talking about individuals on salary or otherwise for example at the New Jersey astronomical associate there's there are teams of volunteers they're granted access to the telescope here's keys to the facility we train you on it but with that training and with those keys you have volunteered to do these four programs a year it's like a rotate and and we have dozens and do like on the order of a few hundred volunteers who are happy to tell what the public and do programing every night there are people iny club we met an hour before this meeting we're all like yes let's do it what can we do how do we do it we will be there you know so ready to go just as an angle to chair are we going to disturb neighbors uh there's nobody there to disturb certainly soundwise there's no sound with you know it's not a in that sense um driving up the driveway you go by a house driving okay driving up yeah you go by there's one house right next to the driveway there there there's also another house that claims to have it claims to be within eyesight of the parking area as former councilman Chase knows all too well Ed he was being watched by by the camera by the camera which is on the other side of the pole there you go the memory of the man next to me that's absolutely true so can this thing be used year round and how is the telescope affected by the weather um feeling F open in the roof it's exposed to whatever is going around Expos to the environment um so these systems you have a go no go system so you've got a little local weather that says it's clear you have a camera there that shows you it's clear there's no rain there's no pressure so those systems are a little system you buy you put on it and you engage it when you operate remotely it will tell you a checklist of things that like yes it's acceptable to open the roof and use the telescope or not so those systems are in place um when it's you're only going to be using your when it's a clear sky anyway so it's only open to clear sky so you you have as much as a 70 degree air temperature difference or is right so again so you pull that roll off roof in minutes you know it's not it's not a heated structure that part and it's purposefully left to be ambient uh how hard would it be to get watered water and it be have to be a well and it would have to be septic there is no water and there is no say talk well and septic for big dollars well in SE used to be there I know there's a cement slabs you see there what used to be there well there it was a farm and there's no this cement slab is all the way to the you know pretty far south on the property from the parking lot and that was a horse Mark very large um the the bridge go down there's a yeah the smaller one there was a corn crib not far more modern structure that was torn down after the township took ownership of it that was closer to the park okay that that was you know the the Farm Road is still there that that and it came up there's two restored homes on Canal Road they're kind of uh dark reddish color yeah that was the driveway up and you went up that driveway and pass the houses and there was the horse barn and then you continued and made a left and you went all the way down and there was The Corn Crib in kind of in the middle and then you got to the existing road now that we use down to Canal Road and it just kind of that's how the well really two different Farms but that those two connected yeah they connected and then there's other obviously other ones are the trails now right some of those other Farm trails are the trails of the open space now that so yes any other questions you said the telescopes would be some of them will be permanently mounted Outdoors no no so they're permanently mounted in on the ground on the pad on the foundation right the roof s uh the roof opens and closes okay yeah little worried about vandalism but well that's I mean that that's always a concern so there's I mean there's things that you know I would say that one we we we never ran electricity up onto the site we have a camera there that's solar powered camera um I obviously this would require electricity so it's a pretty good run um it's a pretty good run up from Canal Road um what once you have power you can have an alarm uh obviously you can you know you can also enhance the cameras at the site from the just the one camera that we have now that's uh solar power that once you have power you can certainly increase your security um it it has been in the past a location where we've had vandalism done and kids kind of hanging out um that seems to you know the police kind of cracked down on it when it happened and they m main their presence there and we really haven't wood here haven't had an issue in quite some time um obviously with the with the value contained within that building it would be it would be much bigger concern and I would certainly want to see some kind of enhanced security 20 250,000 doesn't sound like a realistic number to me in terms of number there was was when I said materials to build it cuz I'm looking at a prefab structure you can go on and say all right what for this footprint what's a preab facility look like with a bathroom and that's the so look look at the concession stand just kind of put it in perspective for look at the concession stand in in Middle Bush Park which is about 1200 square ft with two bathrooms and a small kitchen area and a storage area and it was $600,000 so when I the number you see there is for like me looking at a material that's not part of structure so and that's yeah Bill brought up the fact that hybridge could build a town hall for 250 half a million halfon a house moment house D pre man I just talking about that the other day can someone else talk now or we about this particular topic else not yet not yet more question Zack Zack I guess the next step was try to get what kind of cost you come up with and we got to get some better numbers for this is like I think way low one even 1.25 million is like way low again they were only for the material with me thinking that the DPW would be capable to build the structure and I'm looking here's what the material part costs that's all so yeah I can get you different got looking well septic and all I got you know and SE septic is going to be about $40,000 well probably he can testify to that about $440,000 for septic that's the going rate right now for a new septic system a well dependent on how deep it has to be and remember that we're now Drilling in an area of significant rock formations as it's in close proximity to uh drop rock war which tells us that there's a and The Rock I know goes all the way up at least to Bunker Hill Road and this is south the Bun Road cuz I watched the contractor Blast for days upon days upon weeks to put a sewer system in there uh Forest M on Bunker Hill Road isn't it near Higgins Farm as well no 40,000 like like would I pay 40,000 or is that a Township number like is there a difference no I I I know of a a citizen resident of Franklin Township who recently paid in in the ballpark of $40,000 for a septic system but he had to truck out all the dirt yeah we would have to truck the dirt out spread it out maybe 35 all right so 35,000 this citizen resident I know just told me maybe $35,000 that that person who down all of that dirt probably got did they get ATT tested they had to get a soil exportation permit to move that soil out okay I'm just checking yeah we did yeah we did yeah we did so I'll get you numbers from what Princeton you know when we have more of those conversations bring something to the table financially obviously and hopefully um and and as well as like renting telescope time the idea that that could be used as a maintenance fund or toward us so I'll do some homework and thanks everybody you thanks thank you oh the next Slide by the way is the com if you're looking for it so next are we are we leaving this you don't see it now come back in 880,000 years to cuz that's the next if you don't see it this time come back 880,000 years from now to see it again ter Bob are we leaving this at um that he's going to come back with numbers an open item thank you so much good job right coming have a good one next we're still in public comment what you're talking about can I just ask it's on the agenda correct uh yeah but there's other things okay I was going to say if you want to talk about during the agenda that would be I would ask if it's okay very happy they mow all the grasses everywhere what is your name and address my address you better know my name 20 Magnolia Road Somerset my name is Christopher Williams I'm the local naturalist around here um they did take out my bird boxes they did not they did they took out a number of bird boxes okay I build them for free I get the wood for free I build them for free but I need help I needed somebody to take me out to the field so I can install the bird boxes maybe help me hammer the rod in so we can get to get them in is that possible okay we'll we'll we'll talk yeah okay but um just to be clear you're saying your bird boxes that you built originally are not there anymore there are some they there but they about three or four of them oh they're broken you mean or oh okay okay yeah we'll talk afterwards okay and then the other thing I want to bring up is they're leaving trees in the fields and they're not made of trees or evasive trees so the first thing is is their machine I think some of the trees can't cut it right away so the plan is for them to come back and either have to get someone out there to do it so they did the first run through and the plan is for them to then come back and cut those they just haven't gotten there yet so yeah cuzz haven't touched the the trees at negri that need to go yeah so they were doing negri with the machine the mowing machine then they were going to go mow um John Clyde and then come back and do the the other like they do other things other than open space I understand busy they do a little other things every once they'll come back and cut the tree okay so I don't know if they're going to rent machine or they have a machine that can take it out we have a machine that well we have our new mower which so far you're like the second or third person that told me that it looks good so I guess that mower is doing well which is did very nice and our DPW does have the equipment they need they just have to finish mowing mowing and then they'll go back and do the the work it's a job that will get done when the mowing of fields stops understand that the same people who are cutting the those open space properties are also mowing soccer fields which are in great Demand right now so until that grass stops growing and they stop mowing other things those are winter projects to go in and clean up things like those trees aren't going to go anywhere so I just my concern is we didn't mow last year because it was to West and this year it's nicely dry and the burn is we have a applied and been approved for the burn this year hopefully I know sometimes the trees withstand but that should help too so cross if they if they want my advice you have my cell phone number I can they can always call me and ask me what trees it take out I'll I'll all the trees absolutely yeah just give me a call or I'll call you yeah okay you want to talk about the other item or you want to wait till talk about sh shade tree so he want what the other thing talk about F do you want to talk about it during the hang on one second Chris do you want to talk about it during the agenda when we it's a very brief update or you want just talk about it well it's up to him really I can't talk okay everybody understands that pond is was designed as a veral pond yeah I don't know what maintenance it needs because it is supposed to dry out and when it dries out weed are going to grow and you it's working out fine because this year we had some very fairly rare birds we had two different rails in there in The Cattails it was a it's a great it's a great place it really is and I don't think you need to touch anything in it but so so yes our Trails committee was interested in like potentially finding out how to restore it or what needs to be done to it because of the overgrowth and blocking the birds that was their opinion and your opinion is that it doesn't need to be design it's designed be a Burnal Pond therefore in this in the springtime when it rains if it ever does again it it'll fill up with water and that'll kill the grasses so we really don't need to do anything in my opinion okay now really typically I think Vernal ponds are in the woods and because they're shaded there's not so much growth of anything in them you're probably right but when when the water does get in there the weeds do turn into um organic matter oh any questions for Chris if not motion to close public session second favor thank you Chris next on the agenda is approval of we have to do us a c minutes September right [Music] correction yeah one comment on u d it says um David trig speaking of the natural B in m m park is concerned about Pond and we control it was pesticides that I was concerned about and um those words means toor and it's it may have a negative effect on animals but I also mention that um I was concerned that it drains into the local stream which either goes into uh D Canal or or the river R River so that that was my other I um one second so be David TR is concerned about the use of pesticides near the pond and we control efforts well I didn't say I don't know anything about we control I said I'm that day after communicating with the public works director that the only thing that was done was uh was possibly weed control the truth is I'll discuss it under old business exactly what it is and it's neither well first of all there's Flags around there I just said it's old business and I'll discuss it and there's the flags are not related to pesticide or herbicide it says pesticides do I am not going to discuss this now this is about the minute wrong this is about the exactly it's about what happened not what further discussion and I made my minutes and I and I said that the discussion was also about herbicides which also came up in that discussion after I discussed it with the public works manager on the phone AR you have something we are discussing this further is that what you're saying I'm going to bring it up under old business and tell you exactly who was there and what's applied it's not what you said it is all I'm telling you said when it's coming up David that's when it's coming [Music] up why you on anything yeah under environmental um fourth line down the step I believe it's okay hang on I'm just getting there give me one second fourth line down oh yeah yeah okay go goe and under the second to last line says private composting T and not for profit for free residential composting and I believe in um might correct me um it it begins out free and after a while it might no longer be free um and this was um for I believe food waste comp composting yes soal composting just should say food waste composter okay okay I'm just changing them here Bill if you don't mind this way I can post them is that okay or t r USU isn't it t t us I changed it yeah me and it was food composting right got it okay there no further addition directions motion to approve as amended hold on I'm sorry as I'm just um I'm listed as a trust advisory committee member but I'm also a citizen member I don't know if that matters or not I was appointed as a Citizen M okay Vanessa where are you oh here you are um who's representing the advisory committee yeah that's true there was a you said since I was here I could do both there's a there's there's John are You The no you were the trails advisory committee matter okay um I'll let me highlight it and I'll figure out what your what the correct term is but thank you on the template if you want to just fix the spelling in my first name ah yes bottom left bottom left okay yes thank you perfect okay motion to approve as amended second seconded I'm sorry I missed it thank you fin any questions on a financial report what's emergency and safety supplies emergency and safety supplies uh so the crew members of the public works department who work in the Parks have to use safety supplies in when they're working it's literally that I mean it could be vests could be hard hats could be a lot a number of different things just in the side right across on my phone just came across the astrological map that we were just looking what there is no Trails Committee Member okay so Vanessa citizen member so you're a citizen member Trails does not have a representative one member of the planning board who shall not be an elected official one member of historic one member of the environmental commission one member of the Franklin Township Recreation Council one member of the Agricultural committee one member of shade tree and six citizen members of of of Franklin Council you citizen there's no questions comments on the finan report move on to new business we don't have to do that no okay all right got it I have have a question about calpa at some point and I'm not sure where that would go in about the one I'm sorry calpa okay I'm sorry I having a hard time hearing for some reason I don't know like I know I'm like what I'm sorry I I don't know what's going on I think I'm congested okay any updates on the blind yes um just a very brief update so after the last meeting I uh spoke to our DPW and I got the list of uh our approved environmental engineering and environmental consultants and I reached out to one that has an environmental department and a civil engineering and I started speaking to them about you know what would be involved and you know could you put together like a quote or something like that so I had a meeting with them um I reported on it to the trails committee they are working on putting together some options about potentially what they could work on specs for the bird blind recommendations where it should be and then also looking at the pond but that's just a quote just something that as a jumping off point so it's not ready yet but I told them I would like to have it before the next Trails meeting which is November 13th so I'll have it for that and then hopefully we can discuss it at the next meeting and again it's just a like I don't even have any idea a what that would cost so I need something to go on so that's basically what what where we're at so moving forward that should build it the ver lines yeah you know I don't that again don't know because it's going to depend on the specs and the materials and I don't know if it's like something you know I really don't know I really really am not sure so it's unlikely that the town build it so we'll get we'll get an idea Ian cont with construction company to construct whatever it is that's you can just buy one of those sheds yeah plop it down and cut a hole in it yeah so this basically started off like hey the burline needs some improvements and it kind of turned into if we're going to do this maybe we should look about you know incorporating the pond and working on the Ada ramp and then maybe it might be scaled back maybe it won't may but we have to get some some something tangible to deal with it so yeah next is the uh Reserve updates TS and oh that's all part of uh that first one okay with that okay old business the plan the final draft yes so the pathways and trails plan Mark Healey reviewed it um he only had two comments which was great the first was he wanted some language changed in a portion of uh reviewing site plans which made sense um and then he also wanted us to update the mapping just to include some other elements that weren't on there so I finished updating that mapping just before this meeting and I sent him the final draft so it's going to go he's going to schedule the public hearing hopefully sometime before the end of the year and then it'll get adopted as part of the master plan so it's completely finished so once the planning board looks at it has a chance to do their thing you know I'll probably do a presentation there and then that good news okay Bob you have something on the little business I Ary wants to talk about K I just had a question Street planning and maintenance at Memorial Forest we'll get that you want to get to that one no AR um so I was at the um end of that town hall meeting last I think it was last Monday and Bob I think you mentioned something at uh about calpa about there being pickle ball courts there yes I don't remember that they were in the plans that we were were the plans were amended okay so that's my question is can we get a look at the plans to sure soon sooner rather than later that's I guess the better question is is was there any other revisions besides people well there were alterations to the plan as a result of the D doing all of the things that the D did from 2020 until now to make us jump through hoops yeah so certain things were adjusted to conform with an increased stream Corridor buffer and then and so yeah so but there was no significant alterations to the amenities of the park there were tennis courts always included in the plan and because of the demand for pickle ball there's been a read configuration of the tennis courts to allow for Less tennis courts and pickle ball courts that was that was not as simple as that AR nothing nothing extrav it's not L footprint it's the painting well it's that you can turn them sideways you can get more pickle ball courts out of something that's dedicated as pickle ball courts as opposed to utilizing it as both a tennis court and a pickle ball court because pickle ball courts can be turned sideways so you get two for one but you can't have the next because now they're this way instead of that way right app but clearly the demand has been great for pickle ball courts and that doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon so at the next meeting would we be able to get a look at it I'm here you'll get a chance to look at it I don't know when if I'm not here then par can get them I mean we can get them from Daren nassie it's not a problem I may not be here you're allowed to take time off I'm having surgery next week so you don't get to choose you're off you'll be back in that time trust me I don't know the issue is not so much that I'm left-handed and it's my left arm and and driving back right handed so I'm telling you not that bad one thing to add just about what we're talking about Kapa real quick we can talk about this another time because I didn't get to review the article yet but I got an email that D is adding I'm probably going to say it wrong I think it's like the tricolored bat is another um bat that's going to be added to the uh uh a dangered species list and they're doing a webinar on it and everything for this whole so I'm going to attend it because I think it's going to have if that bat I think it's pretty well you might know better is that a prevalent bat or so that then it's probably okay but they're having a webinar probably occurs up north or further south I don't if one ising during the breeding period if one is within 25 miles right then you have to shut everything down yeah like it's resting or nesting spots so just something to keep in mind that D does do this and sometimes when they do things like that it can up like upend an entire you know process all right okay next I you want to do that one I asked ter about put this on there when we talking and talking talk about planting trees at Memorial Forest it's time to start planting trees at Memorial Forest who's going to make So the plan is being the plan is being done in along I mean I think Arie can speak to this as member of the shade tree commissioner are you the representative of shade tree here Mary is so Mary can even talk so one of the things that Shay Tre looked to have funded and and there was a a quote for that which I believe was included and the approved uh expenditures by shet Tre was the development of the planting plan for Memorial Forest by CME along with the community forestry management plan um so that that's part of the uh the uh approved expenditures out of shade tree trust for a planting plan for um lamoral Forest okay where's that where's that well they're working on both things simultaneously right now and I know I got an email from Steve galui that was sent to Darren Mazy from CME today asking for an update on on where they're at with like the community forestry management plan that that's the same person is doing both and that person I think Tara what's her name you know Sher Sher SPO yeah my husband's roommate's wife my husband College roommates wife and that was purely by coincidence not not by Design um and weird it just it worked out that way but um I think that the emphasis right now is on the community forestry management Plan update only because that has a deadline and so they're trying to reach the deadline and you beat the deadline which they will that's not a problem there for that you saw that the grant money is really not relevant to our review our renewal at all um it's not were two kinds of Grants I understand that and I'm telling you that it's not relevant to our renewal which one is not relevant our community no grants are relevant to our community forestry management Plan Renewal and we're that's straight from the people who have attended every seminar and uh thank you Bob they're just they're yeah they're they shut it down it's not for us I wish it was but it's not we went into it full board trying to get the money and it's not the state said it's not for you uh not how I read it so maybe you could send me an email and expl I'm not going to be able again that I'm not the expert here we have hired an engineering firm to do all of this work and they're the ones that are saying we're not eligible for it I'll try to look into it for once we get these trees ground who's going to be charged of maintaining them Public Works will maintain them yeah okay they have the ability to water and and I know and there's things that can be discussed going forward about that you can also we can discuss the possibility of an irrigation well there which probably wouldn't be a bad idea that we going talk about you know incorporating into the final design so that there's water on site we certainly know that there's water you know water table's not very very deep in that area work on the side of that's that's what I'm getting so it's it's certainly things that we can look at for irrigation purposes to uh to keep it from just having the truck the water back to where the trees will be planted you and I can go out there with our defining rods exactly I've got one it works I mean know God rest I'm sure Joe Toto could tell us where the water was but's I think that that because it's not it doesn't have to be photable water it just has to be irrigation water so makes that well a lot more affordable let put it that way and electricity as the other thing I want to bring up under where I talking about trees and P roal forest and maybe this is not the site for it but I just read an article I sent it to Arie about Detroit is planting sequoia trees in Detroit is that right and they're surviving I thought it'd be unique if we could plant them somewhere in Franklin well do you know the largest stand of redwoods eats to the Mississippi is at Red's display Gardens this the whole article about the nursery and raing these things I like that idea I mean none of us would be around here to see it get as big as the ones in California no they grow they grow atomical lent every year so I mean I think it's something we ought to look at I mean it's just to me it was unique and that that I'm a real tree hugger but I think that'd be cool to have one or have a maybe a memorial plant indigenous trees shouldn't we plant indigenous so I think not native species and non invasives but I don't know is is a redwood considered invasive I don't know no not at all not I don't know I understand it's cool I likeed Sal front that was indigenous to South Jersey not but you know maybe up one there's two fields in the back we talk about putting it you know our trees in one field maybe the other field we could do like corus I mean it I think it I think it'd be something unique for Franklin I think from more people oh take it back to shade Tre and see if the committee has to okay that's next Tre and we have our recommended list it's on the on the list on the list of recommended that's pretty cool there you go it's not native to this area as far as conservation is concerned Chris might know if there's a swampy area with a lot I think we might consider Atlantic White Cedar is that what it is Atlantic White Cedar yes that is a wetland species it's it's native to New Jersey and it was basically all cut down for the British ships back in the day because Pond red area get out of here it's called C Grove okay so as far as the so the question that that David asked last meeting about what was being applied at midd Bush so the company that we hire for Turf Main at midd Bush and other parks where it's necessary to maintain the soccer fields I I think that's they're actually here on on natural natural green um lawn care so this is the company that maintains all the Ruckers athletic fields at they also happen to maintain um Yankee stadium for what that's worth um they are the ones who apply what that what you would have seen the truck applying and it's fertilizer and grub control it's not pesticide not herbicide obviously they're not spraying fertilizer in the bio retention basins they're they're applying it to the grass areas of the park in particular the athletic fields um so that's the only thing that's applied anywhere in Middle Bush Park and for that matter anywhere in any of our Parks it's the only park right now that we concentrate on the natural Turf athletic fields for fertilization and grub control because without it this the fields become unsafe for play and that's why those fields were done and so that's what you saw now there may be warning there may be warning um Flags out there I'm not saying that there's not warning flags but the material that's being applied to those fields is simply fertilizer and grub control thankful that you looked into that and I thankful that you looked into that and they're putting the wrong flag out because go out there right now you leave this meeting there's Flags out there that say side if I leave this meeting I'm going to see a herd of 10 deer on Wilson today right because I already saw all right and then the next day I sent the picture of the one I got to meet in the middle of the road after our open space meeting to Billy all I'm telling you is that say Public Works it's not pesticide I tell you there's no only going by what the flag say you leave here tonight and go there see because it's it's it's incorporated into the fertilizer that's applied right pde signs pesticide and that made no sense that they would spray pesticides there because obviously those those B retention basins are just that they're meant to be natural natural that's and that's there's no control on those the only thing that happens on those is at the end of the season they're mode to and so that they come back in this every couple years not every year not every year no but I mean we have them right back here in the back of the municipal complex as well that's what that leads to two things in my mind one um today Point somebody needs to contact people I just said I would oh bad hearing second point is then why is it that all of a sudden when Dave goes out there he's no longer hearing the frogs the peepers well because we suffered through a drought all summer into now this was early on Bob this was very early on I'm saying there's nothing that that's but now there there are there's no water so there's no frogs I mean there's no nothing two frogs in my swimming pool was coronated it and I assume you have a natural swimming pool and not a coronator exactly for a while my backyard it has frogs in it there you go have a pond too I've had none because I have I have a Vernal pond in my backyard and that beyond my backyard and that's true it's it's a dry stream that then becomes a pond when it's wet season and we haven't seen wet season all year it has not it's been just hard as rock s but anyway I will also discuss the the post how they post I was golfing this weekend I could barely get a tea in the ground you hit the ball 475 yards down I did help 80% of it on ground rolling roll is there any other old business want to bring up if not we'll move [Music] on oh oh no no no no the answer not in this meeting wrong meeting yelling at that's when you know you go too many meetings any questions on the consultant activity report thank you welcome there nothing else update from congratulations terara on the achievement and planning award oh thank you yes that's for everybody we didn't talk about that here yet we said last month but yeah I went picked up was very nice actually yeah so it was cool thank you other committee reports anybody just want to share that we have formally scheduled November 14th the environmental commission is hosting a program a short film and a discussion on the green Amendment which is a movement across the country and there is movement in Trenton to have a green Amendment to the state constitution to guarantee us all clean air clean water etc etc and I'm hopeful that we may get Senator Andrews wicker state senator from Hillsboro Montgomery who's a prime sponsor of this piece of action in Tren to come speak with us as well as Maya van rosum who is the founder of the National Organization green Amendment for the generations she also happens to be the Delaware riverkeeper so she is going to be with us it's going to be at the board of ed buildings on 27 where consolado was so we'll have plenty of room and I'll send you all an email with the details but it's a Thursday night in the middle of November hope you can be there what was the date November November 14th 14 what time 700 p.m. thank you um yes quick question from shade tree um you have that um project you're working on in in nean Williams Park and I promised you a list of trees so I have notes I just need to get together do you do you still need the list yeah you don't you don't have to like rush to get it to me right now but yeah if you can that would be great and you have a chance thank you and the shrub was removed oh good okay perfect even better okay that really require a chainsaw it was like they just required a backo yeah it was like it was incredible yeah no I'm not I'm not joking that J saw and then a back to remov the the RO wow it was in there pretty good Prett big did right actually he he was not going to do himself looking it up to the family truckster was wasn't coming out easy leave the back was like left on the ground saw that once my neighbor did that and I'm driving down the road and I see this tree when the Thing released oh the Trails um we're excited about checking out the possible new Trail on the route County Route 518 property so we're going to go do a walk through on February 23rd so we're excited to check that out do me a favor when are you going to go February 23rd for hun okay good all right so well just just do me a favor since are you going to go to I'm going to try my best so could you ensure that our local residents right there are aware of the fact that you're doing it okay I mentioned kind of to yeah so February 23rd rain date is March 1st would be there's firearm hunting at that property so that's why we're waiting for uh firearm to be over I think that that's going to be a very easy property to identify Trails because some well in in some regards there kind of is already so you know there's a pipeline back there so there's some clearing but um but it it's not it it's a dense forest area but it's not a dense ground yeah Vegeta it's kind of open on the ground I mean I walked around for quite a bit without really having to walk around you know low brush or anything like that it's it's the forest floor floor is pretty clear okay so you should be able to get around pretty well back there is that the area that you Bob and I walked on no we I don't think we ever oh wait did we did we wed there a long time ago oh yeah yeah you move the driveway or you closed the driveway yeah that's the one yeah and we built a small parking area a little bit further up by mad Nursery across the street from Mad stand up in yes yes yes that yes you were out oh my gosh I forgot about that that seems like it so long ago I'm sorry vaness you're good you're good um we we had a great turnout from our committee for Franklin day um and it was nice despite the rain we had great turnout we were able to really promote the trails a friendly tent we had a friendly we were tight we need a little more space but we appreciated the space we had but next year we love to have a little bit more Stephen would say that he didn't get to be in that friendly tent and was saturated all right peeled off the clothes that day but the Township in the many I you know so you there was Steve was there from shade tree he was there all day and um had a big table Yeah Health Department count Health Department was with us Ary was there Paul wiy from environmental all the things wal Andrew Walter was there too that's right it was nice to see Walter um yeah we made the best of it you know it was drizzly but I think we all kind of had fun it was we talked to a lot of people we information out people always excited to hear about the trails you know we always have to bait them in like hey you want a l about trails and biking walking trails in your neighborhood and they they come over they come over so we that was nice we have a um a scheduled walk on uh Sunday October 27th at noon in partnership with Recreation with therapeutic wck um we're excited about about that and uh T already talked about a bunch of other things I won't repeat um we had a one of our Trail members jasha had led a hike um for Thomas ederson energy school um a great turnout for that that's she's a teacher there and um and we also talked about just trying more ways to do advertising um the councilman on our committee he suggested maybe featuring a trail in each of the Franklin times um and so we we're looking moving forward to do that and doing just some more things in the Franklin times social media uh we're also talking about bringing back our calendar contest and uh hiking challenge so those are things that we're talking about the calendar contest it was very popular yeah um you know and it when that calendar came out it was it sold out fairly quickly um I there are a number of people in this town and and even outside of the Town who take some absolutely beautiful photographs if you want to see some of them they're on my wall of my office inner and outer I wound up making prints from a number of them and framed them they in my conference room and my outer office yeah um there and and we didn't limit it to just Township Trails there were DNR Canal toath photos there was some from Colonial Park in the town yeah exactly anything in the it was it was a very popular we didn't mean to end it like it was one of those things well I think it ended kind of like there was an so there was some it was just transitional and then Co came and there was there was a number of different things that was the last year we did it and then we just kind of did in that's what we said we kind of like just we can to use the photos to brighten up our website which is what we wanted to bring it back I could return to judge it absolutely yeah for sure it doesn't your wife help put it all together yeah she did there was absolutely beautiful photographs they were we Ed them in the pathways and trails too they were yeah those were beautiful we're bringing it back we're bringing it back that's it sorry Lori I just volunteered youing Phil what did you do report need to go next thing is another open the public comment second second fa I have nothing to say I've said my piece okay motion to close public comment second favor do we need to go executive session I don't no I don't believe we no um I'll just say everything was underway so nothing to report yet but our our free are underway so for all of the things that we have discussed okay motion so moved second the only New York team