##VIDEO ID:hAQVpVeC4Q0## [Music] all right it being 606 having a quorum presid I call the Freetown finance committee meeting to order all right so I'm Christopher plunker Lakeville finance committee chair I'm calling our meeting to order uh in attendance is myself Christopher plunker I have Larry coant member and also member Mike Wright and a brand new town administrator Mr Andrew Sor thank you Andrew for coming of course and all right um I would for Freetown I'd just like to discuss and vote on the minutes from 7:22 9:26 and 1011 I sent those out 1011 was the meeting that was cancelled due to lack of Quorum um 7:22 and 9:26 were the zoom meetings for the budget transfers um any questions comments all right I will entertain a motion to accept as written I'll make that I'll second all in favor I I I I okay that passes Chris okay so the first item agenda item is first to discuss a possible vote on October 21 meeting minutes however we did that last night at our finance committee meeting right before special town meeting oh so that is not required so we can move on okay um would like to discuss the individual Town finances for our current budget FY 25 um Chris or Andrew did you want to address Lakeville do you have anything to add Andrew I you're still fairly new fairly new just get trying to get just feedback from here and then we're kind of in the process of hiring a town accountant so um that potentially coming on board in a few weeks so things might change and obviously so as just for the record everybody knows both towns are just beginning their budget planning cycle for the FY 26 um but I can talk a little bit about uh some of the challenges that we had for FY uh 25 uh I do have the presentation here that uh prior Town Administrator Mr Bob Nunes put together for a town meeting back in the springtime um and some of the challenges that we had was uh health insurance costs uh originally came in at a very 17 or 18% I believe right um and through negotiations um they were able to get it oh I'm sorry and when I'm looking on the audience I also recognize our um select board chair um line Lorraine glad I can help it's late sorry is is intended so that's why I'm looking out in the audience just so everybody knows who uh L kaboni is of selectboard so thank you L for T anyway so uh we able to negotiate that down 89% roughly um so that that helped um and outside of that it was pretty much you know we were able to fund a level Services budget which is a good news um I know there are some addition many requests from the department managers that were not uh filled so the guidance that Mr Bob NS provided the beginning of the budget year was pretty a level service budget so we're able to meet that um and then the school district uh assessment number uh through negotiations with again Mr Bob Nunes was able to come in at a number that um that fit into our budget um I you know we could have I I'm of the opinion that we probably could have negotiated a lower number um and so that's why we are starting this process tonight both towns getting together and I appreciate the effort from the free toown finance committee chair to invite Lakeville to this joint meeting and the objectives as stated in the agenda is to discuss the town finances uh and then look at the school budgets uh and then be proactive and come up with some reasonable numbers uh um for the school district that will be presented I believe at the the first Regional Finance subcommittee um and then these are also numbers that we can both take back with both our towns as they both towns Deb and Andrew begin their budget planning and hopefully give them some guidance guidelines that they can work with When developing the budgets so okay okay oh and just one thing too so the budget that was developed Again by Mr Nunes and voted on by the town residents um obviously didn't result the good news was it didn't it was a level Services no Cuts in Services uh and at the same time also did not result in any override so I think everybody is aware anybody in my committee want to add anything to that no but was that the number before or after the change that's after the initial which was revived revised in June was lower what was the final number uh the final number I think was 20 was it that's I have I have the yeah believe that's previously I think we were at 17 yeah I have a c I just want to make sure I was on I had all the right numbers before we started talking okay thank you all right um Deb you can give an overview but where were we with insurance that seems to be a sticking point with everybody where were we for FY 25 with insurance um for for our health insurance yep that's what you were talking about right we came in okay with our health insurance for this current fiscal year at about uh 4.8% increase although just keep in mind the health insurance budget is our it competes with the police department for our second largest budget our largest budget is the school district but the second largest budget there it was health insurance I think the police department might have just edged that out a lot but so you you can just see how a 5% increase to one of our largest budgets is a big impact keep in mind that we just had our rate meeting for the retirees insurance for uh that starts January 1 fiscal year and the rate increase was 21% so we are really concerned about the rate coming into the fiscal year 26 planning we won't have those numbers and probably until around March but um we've been told to prepare for a 10 to 15% increase our budget's around $2 million so you know that's a $300,000 increase if we say 15% um we won't know those numbers until we get to that landmark in in March but I'm I'm certainly concerned about that also on the insurance agenda which I which I I made note of is I met with our um Meyer our insurance carrier with our regular premiums and he said the same thing thing to prepare for a 10 to 15% increase this year and if you pay your homeowners or your car insurance you know that these insurance rates are just jumping quite a bit so our insurance is $220,000 approximately for the town insurance so we're looking at an increase there as well was it go ahead million 2.2 million for our health insurance yes it was it was around $2 million so yes yeah we're we're 2.2 million so you're a little bit higher than us our budgets are fairly similar in terms of bottom line budget our uh free towns was 30,6 35 believe deorah can I ask you a point of clarification on what you just said what I understood you to say is that there was an annual increase expected for was it 25 it was for 2026 26 Bally year I wrote down 21% increase was that the 25 and the 26 or that was our retirees health insurance rate rates on the Medicare like supplement that the town pays and that's as of January of um 2025 they run off they run from January to December as opposed to our fiscal year so those rates that we had just had to approve were 211% increase over the last year's rat and there's a lot in that's baked into that number because Medicare overall changed their program the federal program so it got pushed down pretty much to these supplement plans so I understand it but it's just showing you the tone where we're going with insurance I just want to make sure I had it right that it CU you had said 15 10 to 15% the 21% was on the retirees the 10 to 15 is on um our active employee active insurance rate plans and that's a two $2 million budget closer to what you got I think for Freetown we're stable overall we we're we have stable um budget stable financially our concerns remain the same that they have been over the last couple of years we we uh became uh joined the Bristol Plymouth uh Vocational School District they're in the process of building a new school um we are still not at complete capacity with our student enrollment so we don't it's hard for us to forecast where we're going to land with those numbers uh last year we were at $900,000 for our budget it was what it cost but we only had um I believe about 50 students I know that we have 68 students currently enrolled and that we're still not at full capacity so the number for BP is going to continue to increase uh it's going to take us a few years to stable uh and really be able to project what our budget's going to be but I would expect to have a 3 or $400,000 increase this year in our BP budget and um that's just for the operating expenses the uh cost to the um the the bond for the buildout that is a debt excluded so I'm not sure what that will be but it you know affects our budget a little bit differently the other little you know the little behind the scenes number that we W really talk about is the Bristol Aggie School number they also put a substantial addition on a couple years ago and that has steadily increased our budget a few years ago it was at $100,000 last year it was at $220,000 of course it's based on School enrollment um so I don't have those numbers there but that that cost has been continuously to creep up even though it might be only 100 Grand a year all these little pieces of course put stress on the overall budget um you know one of the other things at pre- toown we are in dire I call it critical need for new building um we our library doesn't have running water or a bathroom facility so just imagine that in 2024 we have a a building that does not have Plumbing or running water so we are actively working with our subcommittee to work on getting uh a new library our COA is substantially undersized for our growing senior population so we are looking at doing a combined building for our COA and um Library facilities so we will be looking at quite a bit of an expenditure to to get that accomplished and then lastly I think one of the stressors on our budget that are unknown is with the MBTA station come in now Lake Phil experienced this quite a few years ago but having a new station in Freetown that's going to open up soon I think that it's going to put some pressure on our First Responders our fire and police departments and we are going to have to increase in size um and that of course comes with added expense so those are the things that they they're unknown um and it's real early in our budget season I don't generally start the budget process until January for the town of Freetown and these things I won't even have in January but um there are the stressors that we we don't know uh I could see a million dollar increase between the things that I've just rambled off and that's before we have a new building which won't go into play obviously we're you know we're trying to get them that moving along um so I like I said overall we're stable but we do have some things that we need to worry about coming up in the future thanks D I just want to add so you brought up some good things that I forgot to mention so some of the challenges that we'll be facing in the coming phys school year um we just approved last night uh 20 million for the Fire Station 21 21 million for the fire station that'll go for a ballot in the spring um Old Colony you're not a member of Old Colony anymore but I don't care know this Old Colony um the new school um will be coming for a vote next fall um don't want to throw out any numbers just yet but anyway we'll be voting on that so those are two huge debt exclusions that lakel will be voting on as well um and then of course we have two 40b projects a hospital is 40b correct yeah we have two 40 we have one 40b projects already underway at the hospital the old hospital we have another one that the application's already been submitted uh the rocky Woods um so those are some additional challenges that Lakeville will be facing uh next year and of course the in the resulting increas in services that we that comes from those two so thank you oh um New Growth so how is your so our new growth is down this year uh about less than half of what it was from the prior year a new growth um we expect that Trend to continue I believe right Andrew for that with you yeah least probably in the next couple years it might come back but for the next right probably two years somewhere exactly I knew road is be down significantly how's the Freetown New Growth I didn't review new growth before I came but our new growth will be substantially down because I think we had quite an uptick last year good you know um so this year I expect it to be lower I'm not sure with the the the governor's mandate or the new law with the uh accessory dwelling units I'm expecting that to give us an uptick I was really expecting our local receipts to diminish this year given the economy and and people the stresses that people have so they're not doing they're not moving moving with the interest rates and whatnot we're not seeing the home stuff but when when that was passed we've seen a uh an uptick again in activity with people interested in building adus so again not sure how that's going to play out I'm I'm I was like oh I think it might actually uptick a little bit so I won't have the decrease in local receipts and things that I was anticipating I think it might bring it up a little bit and of course I think the interest rate is coming down now so it's still early to predict but that that's I'm thinking we may level off with that but our new growth will be down yep okay one more thing Chris we um hired four um firefighters through Opera funding yes last year I think he's gone now um it can it might be able to last us another like 6 months to a year but we have to start phasing that into our budget which is a pretty big hit so yeah due to the increased call volume I think free I think your call volume every both towns call volume is going up so it's kind of hard to argue against that but we and for how many firefighters andw for that do AR yeah four four right uh now Carri like Andrew said through end of the year uh unfortunately we didn't get a safer gr for that I'm sure you probably heard about that we were unsuc Chief was unsuccessful right so uh so that's going to be another uh Financial count you know it's hard to pull those firefighters when we see the the call Liams and you can't argue with them so and the overtime that you incur so that that'll be another challenge that we face as well all right I think that kind of covered both this fiscal year and next fiscal year as far as that goes all right what our problem is jointly is the school school district let's this is mention I'm sorry so the public knows the you know the percentage of the pre toown budget in school takes up 47% a little little bit more than 47 at 57 I believe 56 yeah roughly uh just everybody know so it's more than half of our budget so okay yeah and it's like I said it's something that we share jointly and it's it's significant 48% of our budget is almost half you're over half that you know we've it's something to talk about um so talking about like FY 24 with the the school district um it was we kind of tried to discuss argued whatever with the school during the whole budget season um that that maybe they were inflated budgets and and it got passed and now they're giving back money their end is so high they're giving back well it started at what 9 100,000 now it's at what 750 yeah 750,000 um to the two towns and and if you look every year their end is increasing so it it does kind of lean towards the maybe they are overinflated budgets right um this this nice to get money back but one could make the argument that has been made in previous school committee meeting that they should have known or anticipated that Surplus yeah and lowered the budget and henceforth our um assessments as well yep allowing us to use the money in the current fiscal year yeah um FY 25 we also discussed things um there was an error in the budget um when it was proposed of $800,000 they they did some stuff with in the budget and they were able to cover that um but one of the things that they had said that with no reduction in Services right right but they had said that they were not going to backfill positions except for Mr leadworth because he was Leed with sorry um music director there was you know you had to have that um and then there was a picture on Instagram of the new teachers and it was like 15 new teachers so I'm not sure how that happened and how that's fitting into the budget that they had it has me concerned that you know they they it's stated that they're not hiring anybody but yet they did and I'm concerned so moving forward to FY 26 maybe we need to talk about what can the towns afford and make a recommendation to the school committee that or the School Board District um this is all the towns can afford and and maybe they can work their budget around that premise Margaret yes I I actually have a question yes has anybody ever seen any report from the schools ever about the EMD what monies have been spent where for how much has the Lakeville seen any reports I believe last year well we have not seen what they've spent okay we're prevy to the balances of course but I yeah okay I couldn't recall if we have a sort of detailed spending but I think that's something we could ask for car is that a reasonable well I don't know I I know that I've been on the finance committee for 22 years I've never seen a report and it's been requested we've yeah it's coming on Tuesday or whatever but I've never really actually seen what the expenditures are and who was responsible for the expenditures the end I me certainly ask if you're getting if we're getting getting back uh a substantial amount of money from the end uh the 5% of their gross is a gigantic amount of money uh 2 and again I mean if the end emergencies and deficiencies fund is being spent for emergencies and deficiencies I'd like to know what they are number one number two is how much is being spent truly and if it isn't spent where does it go does it go back in the general fund or it it does it does so the It's actually an excess and deficiency fund it's not for emergencies but so the way it works is is that it's really the operating um activity if you will so it gets certified the number that gets certified side can be used to balance next year's budget right um technically they could use the entire 2.2 million whatever's left to balance next year's budget if they really wanted to um of course that wouldn't be great practice um because then they'd be using it to balance operations um so so when you say spend and D it's really the spend of the operating fund which we do have those details I don't think the administration could put together a specific schedule to show how that exact 2.2 million gets depleted if you will because it doesn't work like a stabilization fund or I mean they do have accountants for this that right that they could actually they do that's right again I mean it does it does it make any sense to have that part of their budget without being part of their budget I mean you've got a $2 million line item let's say let's hypothetically a $2 million line item you have to account for that and you what you're saying is that they using it for the next year's budget to balance the next year's budget no I'm actually saying they can I'm not saying that they do right well nobody knows what they do right so at this particular point it would have to be a voted item to be able to use and D um and they haven't been well last year I believe they did vote some it they just used some of it they've been they've been just holding on to it like you know it's for like it is for say we and let's say let's say they haven't been using it for new hires for example they been using it for new hes I'm just I'm just saying have they been using it for new hires I don't know that they've been their balances have been increasing so last year the certified end went up by $1.2 million okay so they've been increasing their balance if they were to for instance have a salary deficit this year right if they overspent their appropriation then sure they'd start using that end balance um but they'd have to vote that because they can't spend over their appropriation um I don't know if I'm explaining it well but basically it's part of their operations it's part of what's called their general fund which for them is fund 100 um I understand but it's still classified as an end fund it's just the only question in my mind is where is it going how is it being spent and who gets it so right now they haven't voted to spend a penny of that eend so technically it's all being held in reserves the $2.2 million and actually end goes up every year because their budget goes up every year and they can keep 5% of their budget so the goes up every year that's right so that's right basically should shouldn't the E and D be a separate line item and their budget be their budget yes so it it is it is it is TR again I'm I've been involved with this end thing for quite a while and trying to get that kind of of information is very difficult I understand that it is an internal thing as far as the end is concerned but it's a question of where it's being spent and why why is it being spent on things that should be in their budget initially that's always been my question I mean you're going to work up a budget we have to do that for the town we have to fund every every entity in the town the cops the fire guys we have to fund everybody we work up that budget as close as we can and it just seems like it almost seems like there's like a slush fund this e and D becomes a slush fund for anything that that they want to fund afterwards and I just I I just don't think that there's enough accountability when it comes to the end we're not if we were talking about $100,000 we wouldn't probably be having this conversation but we're talking about a whole bunch of money so C back to the real question is there a way to get an a report on any any time they let's go back to last year I didn't say they haven't they haven't used it this year but last year if they've voted to use the indd technically they should be tracking that we should be getting reports of what they're voting to utilize and then what they're utilizing out of v and um I I would argue that the word slush fund is better tagged to school choice um in my op that's my own person that's my own my own personal yeah now I do have to say this the do you know is required and they do go in every year to certify that so at least it's being monitored by the do the do and the Auditors would know if they're overspending the appropriation or if they're using eend and they haven't voted for it properly so there should be a vote and then following that should be the spend of the& um my understanding is that last year there were some transactions with the end um I have yet I haven't seen a list of those transactions asking requesting but that might be a great request of what items were voted last year from end um and you know could we get maybe a date of the vote um you know to then be able to see what what they used let's not limit ourselves to one year let's limit ourselves to five years go back five I mean they do have computers there and they do have records so I'm sure it wouldn't take much to just punch that up and give it to us in a report last year the the vote the use of the end I believe was part of the original budget it was a set aside it was a an amount that was noted on the assessment sheet I guess my question is you know was every penny of that actually spent um I believe that was 176,000 yeah Transportation was it Chrome books it was originally Chromebooks and then I think maybe the purpose was redesignated um yeah yeah right I know the year before it was Zero um I don't know the last time they used D and it might be quite a ways back um okay but it's a reasonable request to ask Jack in okay yep we can go back 5 yearsas keep in mind though we are getting money back I don't know what leville is getting free Town's getting 321 like four something I believe four and some change I believe it's broken down by the percentage so 57% D was like 1.7 so they first fully funded end to the tune of 2.2 million and then the residual get returned to the town so there was actually an overage of like 1.2 million that was the increase yeah y so y this is bigger than even what we get back it was so that that's saying that they had $1.2 million excess their budget number and I've said this before if Freetown hadn't if we had inadvertently not added $800,000 to our budget or had a $500,000 error we would have to go back to town meeting we couldn't make that up we don't have it right right can I ask a question and forgive me because I'm new this is my first year on finance committee um when do you get reports from the school committee or the school department on what your expenditures are for the year you surely get like a budget and then do you get like a a monthly report a quarterly report we ask only if you ask so only if you ask that makes me uncomfortable coming from the private sector um and I've noticed this and I'm I'm involved with another nonprofit and I I'm troubled by the lack of transparency um and I think you know if I mean I don't want to overstep here but I feel like if it was it was my household somebody would be answering for it I don't know I'm probably speaking the obvious but if we're not get getting any reports isn't that sort of a a core issue it I would my speak I've only been doing it for a few years we've definitely impr since we've been working together and especially with the new Finance director Jack we don't we get them upon request and I Margaret did request the latest grants man uh grants management report um I did send it this afternoon I don't forget I apologize but yeah it's in i i sh the finance committee so it's year to date budget actuals to budget um so they've been good but we have to proactively requested we don't they don't proactively share anything with us no but they have been good I I will say since been very good about getting a fast turnaround why wouldn't we just have a schedule though this we we can certainly it we tried that we tried that last year and and it lasted two months and then we never heard from we we to be fair we have not asked Jack to send those reports on a regular B and we we can certainly do that and I'm sure he will accommodate that request so we can get those MTH then the nice thing is if he's sending it over and there's a variance then he can explain so that Robert or any of the constituents can see exactly where that difference is they have to explain it yeah and even if they're only moving say it's $200,000 from the end fund at least you would see that in October versus waiting until it's yeah and it's it's that doesn't show up on these reports though okay so yeah I mean the one thing that we're really missing in these reports are the other funds this is just the operating fund so we're missing school choice and we're missing circuit breaker those are key funds um the special Revenue funds the grant funds um and you know there are you know other types of revolving funds like the school lunch fund you know it might be just good practice to be able to see those as well yes absolutely on a periodic basis mhm yeah EXC we I think we should just be seeing everything that's kind of always been my argument with any school is that everything seems to be so hidden yeah here's our budget here's our expenses yeah what about your circuit breaker money what about your ENT fund what about your all these little funds that keep adding up and adding up when the town is trying to figure out who we're going to lay off to make our budget work or you know what department can't have you know Police Department can't have a new police car this year but yet the school gets their 17% increase and we're good to go I I i' I've always had a huge problem with how um hidden their actual real numbers are not their just operating budget I'm talking about all of their money because at the end of the day none of it is their money it belongs to the community of who they service I suspect they're protecting it of course they are but there might be reason you know but that if so if they give it to us we have to be ready to listen to well it's obvious isn't it but that's the the reason I you you hope it is but I think that's it's about building that trust right like we heard at that with Mansfield right so if they're giving it to us and we want to chew them up every time then it's that's sort of like the federal government you know you change administrations and all of a sudden there's answers and then there's questions and then there's no answers no questions so you know it gets to be a Sticky Wicket when you're talking about changing and there has been a big change in the school as far as their Administration and they I think a lot of them are trying to play catch up they they haven't really got their teeth into it yet or close to it it doesn't excuse anybody from not having a budget that's responsible to the taxpayers that are paying for it and that's really where I'm at and it's just it just gets to the point and it's been very frustrating over the years of actually getting information we get promised a lot of information but the ACT information that we get sometimes is uh opaque yeah to be if it's coming consistently then you have a chance to look at it okay I didn't like this now October we're going to change it now January we're going to tweak it this way until you finally have something consist but it's it's sort of like getting a budget I uh you know I don't know about lakevold but in in free time our budgets are are due on February 1st that's when every Department is supposed to hand in their budgets and I've never seen a budget from the school that would H hold up for anything I mean it was always last everything is last minute you know a week or two weeks before the meeting and then there's changes and we need this and this has to happen and it's happened year after year after year so and I know it's put the button on Lakeville as far as their finds at in years past it it's gotten down to the wire and very very close and almost came down to laying off you know police and fire and all of that stuff if I know you guys went through it it was about 15 years ago that it was really good nutsy but again you know at some particular point you have to draw a line in the sand and say listen this is what we need in order to make a a decision as far as our budget's concerned for the towns you know we've got to look at everything as far as the town is concerned not just the schools and you start adding up the numbers between Lakeville and us what does that come out to you look at how much money is being spent also the important part is where are all of the other monies and you're exactly correct that's what we need we need to see what they've got coming in from wherever it's coming in from that's why it takes so much time for counting up there because it takes a while to count all that stuff I guess I don't know it just is what it is yep so I don't know if if everybody did get a copy of the budget up till um October 31st barara do you want to look at my cop do you have a paper copy I have an electronic on my phone that's going to be it thank you very much so I asked Jack to sort it by um budget Center in individual schools and I think he misunderstood me and so sent the schools the region and central office but not all of the different budgets um but it was really interesting looking through and seeing major overages in many many places um the high school salaries 122,000 what' you say the middle school was 122,000 over budget in October 31st so I emailed Jack about that to ask and um I know it's kind of long but let me just read the email he sent um there are two elements at play in the situation first the staff members need to be paid from school choice and the Ida Grant changed this year as it would be more efficient if we selected employees who chose to be paid 22 payments rather than 26 because that 26 payment is over the summer into the next budget and that just messes everything up so in so they they specifically picked ones that were only paid 22 times because they done by the end of the fiscal year so does that make sense do you I'm still not sure I follow that logic when you have when you have individuals you pay over the summer on the 26th pay you you pick up the expenditure in that year as an acred payroll right so you still counted in that budget year so it shouldn't have an impact just say okay it should not have an impact okay it's just accounting it's but maybe he's trying to keep the accounting clean maybe he's trying to say if he uses the 22 then he doesn't have to do the acral that's what he's saying this will allow us to reduce the amount that has to be accured for wages over the summer um this but he'd still have to ACR it to the other funds though whatever other funds he's paying them from he'd still have to do that acral from school choice well wherever yes okay correct it would still have to be done okay the second issue results from pay rooll in the correct assignments of staff to locations um this has been an ongoing issue so I'm not sure why if somebody's at a school why they are being charged out of a different school but he's do split right split their time like some of the special ed teacher like don't they go between schools maybe I know like so for par Professionals for example those tend to move right you might move one from FES to AES right so now you're moving between the budgets but really when you look at them as a whole they should net right theoretically but you can understand why it might throw you off if but some of some do split their time right some of the administrators um not so much teachers but administrator so we are we talking about a difference in the actual amount of the budget or the a difference in the reporting of the budget yes I mean the bottom bottom line is there's still like I don't even matters what cost center it's coming out of right right if class so classroom salaries in two different schools are over budget by $250,000 I'm not sure that there's $250,000 anywhere not spent in the other schools that doesn't make sense to me so actually you rolled it up nicely yeah but uh do you want to finish is there anything else in the statement that um no so he did send out a new one but it still has salary overages so I I'm not yeah go ahead so when I took those reports before the update um you know I came to a surplus of 3.5 million but that's not really a true number cuz there's there's some things in here that haven't been encumbered yet like utilities is an example if you look at the heating lines a lot of them show some pretty massive surpluses in electricity as well um so just for the record um there are some costs and then things like um substitutes and other hourly type employees are they're not encumbered right so it's only up to the last payroll so there'll be some more charges coming out um but then what I did which I found an interesting activity was just take all the salary accounts and basically say if I take all the salary accounts um for everybody it came to be if I added correctly a $360,000 deficit so an overspend um then what I said was I want to separate teachers from special ed teachers and also par professionals custodians and administrators and just to kind of see like you know what does this really look like it seems that for special ed we had a surplus in salaries of almost 200,000 and I couldn't make sense of that um when I look at traditional teachers um that does include nurses because they're part of the teachers contract um and other types of like um trying to think of who else like the psychologist would be part of that um I had an overspend of 524,000 of which classroom teachers were 41,000 overspent um nurses were 74,000 overspent um I'm not sure if they did hire an additional nurse outside the budget but my thought was if you are then you know would you do a budget reallocation to cover that um so I do have some concerns um as far as you know if people were not budgeted in the right categories then maybe the budget needs to be reallocated to the proper lines to show I think we've been asking for that right since he made the $800,000 we've been asking for the new assessment and we haven't gotten it correct we have not getting the detail on that okay so what you're saying is your your concerns from what I'm hearing you have a $1.2 million concern I mean at least I have I at least have a half a million dollar concern as far as payroll right and that's before new contractual adjustments that might be coming um which of course is going to grow into a much larger number yeah I mean we're we're talking about the end of October that's right well this is the thing so so when they hire someone like let's say they did hire an additional nurse and that's why there's a $74,000 deficit there um when they do the hiring they encumber the whole contract for that person so that's already being reflected it's really the hourly folks but those do add up because you have things like you know van drivers um you know um secret secretary substitute udes um anything that's overtime is not really encumbered yet until that happens um so those numbers can grow rapidly um you know when I looked at the salaries I had some concerns I also saw s um deficits in other areas um you know one of them was debt so I think when we looked at the original budget um I think we knew that the debt number that was on the assessment sheet wasn't I think that number was correct but the the debt that was budgeted in the expenditure side was short and now it's clear because there's a deficit of $43,000 there um another example going back to salaries was the data administrator I think that was another one we had pointed out I think for that one the plan was they were going to fund it from the um Chromebook repairs or Insurance yes and it doesn't appear that it will be so because now it has a deficit here unless that money is going to be moved unless the salary is being charged to the wrong fund so there seems to be some accounting that needs to be done both I would say on the budgetary side to really line some of these things up um but overall I mean I don't I don't know why there is a deficit in the payroll as a whole that's what I saw when I did my quick analysis today um but to your point it's still early it's in the fiscal year we're in what q1 yes roughly it's early but to me more scary right like we're right out of the gate and we're already a defit because worse than but my guess is maybe I think they were talking about using school choice for some things maybe that that those things just haven't been reallocated the way that that the wi that they're planning on and maybe we canre we can figure that out ask the question maybe the positions that are suppos be funded by school choice haven't yet been tagged right so I know that they had $1.3 million in school choice they were planning on using what 700,000 um I don't know if that 700,000 has been tagged right so so maybe it's that um school choice and circuit breaker those are the two wild cards because if if those things haven't been accounted for yet those can cause massive swings in the way these numbers will look okay so we need to probably ask these questions and get that information y so it sounds like a lot of these questions can only be answered by Jack yeah um so my thought is is it something we should bring to Regional fincom or should we schedule a meeting with Jack with the the two Finance committees separately we did do a meeting last year with Dedra so I most of you were on the committee last year if I recall right any many new I I I was I'm new this year Okay so we did our approach last year we did a joint meeting in January roughly we came up halfway point yep yep we came up for a lot of these questions and then we had a second meeting where we had Alan and Dedra and some of the school committee members so that that's an that's certainly a great idea we can certainly do that again because we recognized last year we're in the same we had a lot of questions well only deardra could right answer them so we can use this as an we are we're writing down these questions and then we can I think the best way we could take it to a Regional Finance subcommittee meeting I would think I would rather I think Mar I think you would sport in Deb we have another joint meeting and we invite Jack and well I think first let's send all of these questions out well absolutely that's what we we getun right I think that's a great plan because it'll give Jack some time to prepare um you know it may be as simple as he has a journal entry or you know something to adjust right so um I think giving him adequate time um know I know the other thing we haven't talked about yet is is um um you know the number of students that they have right now and how that's changed um that was my question their enrollment does that look like enrollment is down almost 150 students from last year to this year to 2556 yeah 2556 that's a big number that's a big number and you lose money from the state when enrollment goes down right no because they're um considered a hold harmless uh they're a minimum Aid District under Chapter 70 they will get at a minimum $30 per student I have confirmed that directly with desie um that they are not changing even if we lost a th000 students we would still get you take how many students you have on the foundation budget times at least $30 last year um and it's not typical but last year the state did increase that um it did to 104 um there have been years they've increased it to 60 per student it does not mean for much of an increase however at $30 a student you're talking a 6% on your budget $30 towards I'm sorry because like I I'm just thinking I I put my kids into private school and you know the town didn't lost that money right they lost the money because the kidss were pulled out that's right and I really bothered me that nobody ever asked why right because it was business we' be asking why we're losing people so at that time I was under the impression that it was a much bigger number well that's just the increase from last year so you start with last year's Aid okay and they get an additional so you could literally have two students right now yeah You' still get 11, 750,000 plus 2 * 30 under the way the the the regulation is and that brings a point though just to keep in mind that we can talk all day long about the budgets and what Freetown in Lille can afford and at the end of the day state aid can change drastically and severely hinder the school budget and they'll be looking for the towns to make up that difference so it's sort of like this moving Target right we and we don't have those projections coming from the state yet but we know mid year last year that the governor cut uh budgets to the town had gotten grants and she just cut them in half and said NOP you got you already were awarded this grant but now we're cutting it in half she did preserve the school budget she did preserve that um but we have no idea going forward what is going to happen from the state so if the state says yeah we give you 104 last year but we're only going to give you 30 there I mean there there that substantially helped our school budget last year because they got a lot more state aid and it reduced the amount of the assessment to each town to the point where we could afford we could come in where we could afford uh I know you you w't here but Robert uh Mr Nunes and I went to you know superintendent Charles and said it was mostly driven by Lakeville hey this is the this is the this is the most we can afford and they were able to meet that because they got so much more state aid but if state aid changes this year we're going to be looking at a drastic deficit compared to what I think they might be looking for and what what what the state aid is so the towns need to make up that difference so I think that's really important to understand we can decide all day long but at the end of the day if the state aid changes drastically there's going to be there's going to be some changes that need to be made to these budgets so the way the law is currently worded is they can't get less than $30 a student um plus their prior year Aid so they will get an increase of 600,000 minimum so they will get a $600,000 increase in the budget no matter what what's that no matter what no matter what that's right so that's a substantial sum of money that they can already Bank on without an increase from the town assessments the issue with the money is that it's such a small percent right so if their collective bargaining agreement is looking at a 3% or 2% increase and the teachers are moving down the steps and the levels um which is more like a 2% is really more like a six in reality is you'll never have enough funding from Chapter 70 to be able to get you through that budget it will always have to come back to the pound does any can somebody just you might know this what is the overall sort of payroll for the schools like General like is it 20 is it 10 million what's I mean the budget's like 45 million what's how much of that is payroll um i' have to look to be sure but I feel like it was around 25 25 million yeah so when we're talking 3% or 25 just feel like can have I know last budget year it was aend it was revised but prior to that budet budget year it was always shown on one particular slide in the PowerPoint it would show how much is payroll I didn't bring my school it goes back two years it doesn't have to be I'm just think okay 3% of 25 million is a subst so just yeah it is it's a significant increase every year just confused because our population's going down but our costs are going up so much and I understand there's specific reasons for that certainly the state being the biggest one um but wouldn't that directly impact the number of teachers I mean are we still it still looks like the salaries are still upside down on some most of these I know I'm new I probably shouldn't ask all these questions I'm sorry I can in a business argument I think you'd be correct we're talking about Municipal Employees here that's what just I'm new yeah it's it's it's tough to get your head around and of course there a balance they you know the school's trying to maintain class size right um you know so it's always been a specific goal of the school committee to maintain class size and you know try to give the students a great education so I think it becomes sort of a but of course at some point you know it becomes a financial decision right um I guess it depends where things are at financially with the towns and with there available end and school choice and because besides that really they don't have any other reserves yeah but you're still down 100 students correct yeah but think about it this way if we have 12 grades so that's say nine nine students per grade that's not enough to to say all right take a section away so you still have the same number of teachers even though you've dropped 100 students right okay so it depends um where they are in the school if you lost 25 kids from one grade then yes by all you know that makes sense drop a teacher but not if it's all spread out it all depends on those numbers do we have an idea where the Dropout is occurring is it the high school level I think when I looked at it was the high school and that and as once it was at it yeah yep is it just that we're not having as many students come up through is is it possible to freet toown and in Lakeville are having less kids yes I think that's more likely I mean I'm just looking numbers wise I think we're 33% of our population have no kids in the school system that's about right somewhere in that ballpark yeah and forever growing because nothing for nothing Lake Lakeville is a has a large Retirement Community so I I'm seeing a decrease in students because you're having a you don't have kids kids raging out I mean you know they're so we not bringing new kids in and you know the houses that we are building right now are 55 plus communities um I can't imagine anyone 55 that wants to have kids going to the school system 57 and I would not want that um so I I think if the numbers drop then yeah they they have to start looking at some other and I'm not saying we have to immediately cut teachers but if you have less students maybe we can cut down in other places custodial staff you know nursing staff whatever it may be but there's got to be Cuts I run I run two businesses and if my numbers don't match the first thing I have to do is let people go I don't like letting people go right I want my business for 20 plus years I don't like letting people go but I have to because at some point there's no more money right and that's what has to happen at some point right I think it's a case if they have to sit down do an analysis how many kids in each School how many you know is the optimum class size they're trying to keep it below 20 but you know may maybe 21 will will work or you know I'm not saying go up to 2530 absolutely not that's not what I'm saying but but a hard and fast wall at at 18 or 20 is not doable you know there has to be some flexibility but that's uh you have to sit down with the numbers and look at that um i' like to see those numbers as well but forget about just I mean Financial numbers they're always going to fight us some but I'd like to see how many students are in each grade level what class you know I will send that to you I will they Prov out they provided that to me two years ago I don't I don't know if they did last year because you know I wanted to see every single class how many special needs students were in and I got breakdowns because that was the year that they were claiming you know we were going to have a 50% increase in Special Needs students so I I do have a breakdown um so they don't have that information they do I do have the Sims report from October 1 which is just the general population I don't know how many of those kids are special needs but how many bodies are in seats um so I'll send that to Chris I thought you had it but maybe not do you have it I may okay I'll I think I have said ask you if I don't if I don't have it okay perfect perfect so so what's the bottom line here so the bottom line is how much so the no the bottom line what what are we going to do as two committees together you going do is make a recommendation at the end of the day the the superintendent presents his budget and the school committee votes on it the regional fincom I mean they didn't even include them them last year we had no meetings at all right so I mean you I think that you want to give them your recommendations you want to give them your suggestions but at the end of the day they're going to present their budget with what they think they need and if you do not agree with it I'm not I'm not asking that question oh what do you ask that's not the question I'm asking I understand that they give us a budget and the taxpayers have to pay for it I understand that it's just the the accountability for the budget we've discussed a bunch of things uh questions about reports and things that we need tonight are we going to together uh extract that from the schools all of that stuff that we've talked about yeah we're going to request and and it's going to be passed on to the to everybody on both committees yes okay yes that that was my question I understand I I've been around a while and I understand how it works trust me and that's always been the question they get together they vote on a budget and they present the budget and we pay for them and that's just and we basically other than school committee have no say whatsoever we just well we have a power to say vote down the budget and put them into into a prior year fiscal budget we have that ability as a town well there may be a lot of ability I've never seen it happen it doesn't happen because it's an awful thing to happen it's the same thing as passing law some point it can't happen yeah again I understand but it it it's never happened it's and the way things are set up it probably wouldn't it probably wouldn't happen and again I understand your point exactly and it's not like I I disagree I agree but you know when you when you look at the facts of the matter and what's happened and what happens year after year after year like I said you know getting the budgets and there's a caveat to that I understand you don't get the State numbers until late and then all of a sudden everybody's jocking because you've got to you've got to uh uh adjust your budgets accordingly and stuff like that but late is late and these budgets how far off can they possibly be isn't there any leeway here so like I I said um on this education budget they can't go under $30 and prior year amount plus $30 per student it's the law right so that's where they will start with their budget most likely um if they put out a conservative budget that's what they would do um that's extraneous to all of the other uh that that's right okay that's right but at least on the school side it becomes a little more complicated if they weren't a minimum a district because there's like 21 factors that go into Chapter 70 it's a complex formula but because they're a minimum a district it's very simple I me I think the communication transparency if if this this these two boards get together present the questions if if if um Jack Higgins can come and answer the questions I think the more communication and transparency you have the more trust you're going to have with their budget and the easier the the process is going to be I do want to say last year that Bob news and myself went to to superintendent Strauss and he was accommodating he did say okay I'll work with the towns so I feel like that's the approach right the towns come together try to figure out what they can cannot tolerate and then sit down with them and say look this is where we're at and if they say okay that works we can do that or they say hey um the school really needs X Y and Z and they're transparent about it and they communicate this and then we and we just kind of got to get there we'll just we'll just work those gears until we get to the bottom line where everybody we don't none of nobody wants to go to town meeting and vote down and fight the school budget if you've ever been there that's not the place you want to fight the budget on on town meeting floor and nobody wants that so I think this helps the communication because the questions come out and they have time to answer them you're right Bob if you're given us a budget April 1st and or March 27th then the budget's going to be voted by April 1st it's very difficult in those school committee meetings to ask the questions that we really want to ask and you almost feel like you're being a pest because you're asking questions and they're almost like hey you don't understand the budget just sit back down we do understand but we need you to communicate so I think this process if we can just keep asking the questions and they they they answer them and Jack's been very good I think that the trust will be there where I think that's where we need to go we need to get some trust and some transparency so that we we do you know cuz it is this the school choice you know kind of we don't talk about school choice and we don't talk about the circuit breaker and how we get reimbursed for a lot of stuff so I think we're all learning and asking the right questions and I I'm hopeful that we're going to have a better process moving forward right tle Deb said I I agree with that so when Marg and I first came together last year objectives were similar try to examine the current budget identify issues we found some issues and um brought those attention um through emails and timately through school committee meetings when we didn't get as much traction as we wanted we always give them an opportunity to respond my email first before we hit them in a school district meeting um but the other so the way I look at it is we use these opportunities for us to formulate those questions and then again we all know our role it's just an advis we have No Authority whatsoever um but we also have the Regional Finance subcommittee where we can take the progress we're using here and then where we have more of a representation from the select boards count administr you guys I'm not on it no select and um who's on the Regional Finance we have select board members School Comm school committee right um but we can use those opportunities apply apply more pressure MH we recognized that last year there was only one Regional Finance subcommittee meeting that was in December they did not have any after that we have their schedule for this year they're planning three four some of them were a few dates to choose from right we one meeting but here's three dates so we're hopeful they will stick to that schedule and we can use the opportunity for fincom representatives and select board representatives to continue to apply that pressure and advocate for a sustainable budget cuz that was our goal last year we just didn't get very public op well we did it during school committee meetings we really want to do that newal Finance subcommittee we agree that that's the best place to do it they didn't have those meetings so we didn't have that opportunity so we did it during school district meetings um and I think we can leverage what we did there was last year was the first year we did that both towns came together and now this year we've learned a lot lot and hopefully we can continue with that momentum as Deb says and engage you know especially Andrew's advocacy as well and select board and that way there my my reasoning has always been you know we can yell all we want they can ignore us but when it comes time if if we have to you know during town meeting Finance committees have to go and say we don't recommend that we don't want that but at least we can sit up there and say Here's what we've been doing for the past year so when those tough we have those tough discussions and the parents are out there and and they get really ugly we we can say well we've been doing this and here's what we've done for the past year and it helps puts us in a better position ultimately end of the day that's our job for advocating for the best possible Financial Solutions for both towns that's all we do we're just an advocacy group don't have any Authority whatsoever and guidance and Advocate and then help the select board members because ultimately you know select board members can also weigh in as well so that's my philosophy I know Mar agrees with that because I've been working with Margaret for well a year now so so with that being said where do we go from here we have some we have some good questions here we can continue to spend a little bit more time if you want to develop any more questions both Margaret and I will send those to Jack give give them an opportunity to work on it and then we'll schedule a follow-up meeting and a two couple weeks two or three weeks we don't want to go too long because we'd like to come up I don't I don't I don't think we're ready to come up with a number tonight I think it's would you agree Margaret it may it might be preliminary and Cara we have a lot of questions not not a hard number but to say General guidelines we might get to that let me just just say that two years ago they were so proud to say that it was only a a one% increase in the budget it wasn't a 1% increase in the budget it was a 5% % increase in the budget but they use some of their their end some of their school choice so the assessment was a 1% increase but the budget was still 5% I believe last year the budget increase was 4 and a half% yeah about and yeah they brought the assessments down to the towns and so it wasn't a 4% increase on the assessments because they used their they're not the re inde that time but they used school choice and used more of circuit breaker and and so I'm just concerned that the bottom line keeps going up and up and up and up and up yeah so so even to say ah you know maybe you should hold your budget to a 2% increase it's still a 2% on the five and on the four and a half and then another two it it's that's my concern level fund it they absorb $800,000 into their budget without a problem they absorbed 500,000 the year before so if you said okay and still we're up 1.2 we're going to get an additional 600,000 automatically from state aid yes so level fund it's the budget plus the 600,000 you and plus the $30 per student you know those are hard numbers that's probably 700 and some th000 so this $46 million budget plus the $700,000 there you the contractual obligations are we well we wouldn't have that number they're starting well they're starting negotiations with the teachers but that's for next year right since since we're putting together a Christmas list to ask for things can go go Larry I I I haven't made a Christmas list in a long time I'm Jewish but we'll try it anyhow um we talked about that budgets you know their budget coming in you know two seconds before we all step on town meeting floor can can we say Hey listen we need this budget by this date here's our hard date we have to have this by which was by law it's 45 no it's 45 days before time time meeting have you ever gone it 45 days before time meeting last time we got it at very close they met it last year they they didn't make 45 they didn't no it was a few days over but it was close I think it was one day I think it was one day off or something yeah what it's 45 days sufficient can we ask them Hey listen we know we know the law says 45 also you know you know the law says I can't drive over 65 and 24 but let's you know um let's C can you help us out there can you get us to us 50 days before Town meting we need some time to put this together digest and look at I know we're not don't forget they start talking about it in February I realize that and and so the initial presentation is usually right around the 1st yeah February February yeah yeah and the only trouble with that is they're still waiting on health insurance that's usually Valentine's Day so should we schedule a meeting around that time I just the sooner we can see it the bet the the better and we can talk about it the better answer we have and and I'm sure Robert over there has been here long enough to know this is a happen I can somebody to look at his face it's just it's just incredulous to me that it's the same stuff every year and you know let's think about it uh do we have the capability of putting some feet to the fire here is it possible I think it's possible if both Finance committees are on the same page I really believe that in years past we went I don't know 15 years we never discussed anything with the with the lake fo finance committee and yet we are Partners in the school system I mean it it's it just never made any sense to me but again here we are today we're actually making Headway as far as questions and stuff whether we get answers or not is another thing but we're making Headway with getting some questions and looking into information but the other thing is too late is too little as far as the information if we can't enact on it in order to affect the budget right that's exactly what I was going to say we don't want the final budget right early we want to be in on the beginning when there's time to to change things once they say they vote on it it's it's a done deal I think you make a meeting right with this joint committee these two committees and the school committee in Jack Higgins in that February time frame after the budgets presented by the superintendent because I know we I mean they only let us ask questions in public participation and there's only and they only let you speak for three minutes so you can only ask one question then you got to sit back down so you need a meeting where you can ask your questions and there may be 10 of them you may I may have 15 my might have 10 we need just a meeting where it's just about the budget in an Ideal World when the Regional Finance subcommittee shouldn't they be having those discussions in advance of that February preliminary that's really what should have been happening but it didn't no it didn't it didn't there were no meeting try to push for that yeah understanding it's still a working budget it's not you know nothing when you but that is right becausee floor ex yeah so we could certainly push we can't drive their agenda well we have dri the agenda we have their budget calendar yes so we can look at that when are they presenting it and then we should get our binders right right after it gets presented it's usually a day or two after yeah last year was February Valentine's Day and and and we can all look at our binders set up a a list of questions we have and call them in you know week after that so the budget calendar does it say I don't do you have that um I'm just curious when they're planning on their initial presentation I believe it February again yeah I mean used to be around February 1st is it around the same last year was the 14th there's only one way to do this and that's to level fund the budget completely you'll find out how efficient that budget is almost immediately yes so everyone else had the level fund last year right every every Department last year I'm sure and free Town had to do the same thing you had to have level funding budget maybe you guys have a little more money than we do I don't know but every Department we had we asked to do a level fund you know other than maybe you know I think we were what 1% maybe here or half a percent there but what my same question you I have that you have is why is the school different level fund your budget you're getting what is it 700,000 approximately number so actually I just redid the math it's 7 it's going to be 765 or so 80,000 unless they increase the $30 which they might you know they have been doing that what's their total increase this year well for next year it will be about 76 ,000 okay so that's what you can do 80,000 you go unless the state increases it more they might I mean last year the reason why the state increased it from the 30 was because there was a lot of communities that met this minimum number and they were you know there was I think 200 maybe 200 out of 200 communities maybe half you know so the number hadn't been they hadn't had that much pressure in the past um you know that they had that many districts that were only getting that much of increase so that's why I feel like the state felt some pressure to increase it so they went from 30 to the 60 and then they landed at 104 I never would have predicted the 104 the 60 yeah but but we don't know what this actually I don't right it's inconsequential what happens around the state as far as other you look at towns you know up north that have tremendous amounts of money they don't really even need state state aid there are a lot of towns that don't need state aid uh towns like us we we definitely need or they definitely need State AIDS as a town if we didn't have to fund the schools we wouldn't we wouldn't be uh in that position whatsoever but every budget in town has to be funded we still have the pressure from from all of the other Municipal Employees that are in our towns the cops the fire guys the schools the janitors town hall employees everybody has to be accounted for is as far as our budget is concerned and if we keep eroding the budget uh at a 50% or a 60% uh uh number uh it's just going to put more and more pressure on taxpayers some particular point you be talking override it's the bottom line yeah eventually you'll be talking an override it's the reality of it yeah I'd rather have needle stuck in my eyes than talk about an override well I'm not advocating it so Chris if you if we're coming up with a list of questions to propose for um perhaps at that time we can also ask them in you know whatever everybody thinks but perhaps we want two meetings we want one meeting in February and we want another meeting you know all right lch we just looked at the schedule yeah and Jack schedule I guess which is an Ideal World um the middle of December is a regional finance committee meeting the middle of January is another Regional Finance committee meeting and then the beginning of February the 5th is when they will have a presentation Public Presentation to the um school committee so I think in that December January time is I think definitely the Regional Finance we do have our Representatives but they public meetings anybody and everybody can go and everybody and anybody can ask questions or whatever so so I think starting in that December meeting talking about it would be a great idea yeah and I think the echo you you understand about the leveraging those Regional Finance subcommittee yes as long as they have them and and look at they don't yeah my concern with the regional finance subcommittee right now is it's not a full committee right crystal got pulled off of the committee and they have not replaced her and John declined joining it so they have two options on who they can replace her with they need so they're currently meeting the decision yeah they are meeting right now yeah yeah she's appealing we'll see what happens we'll see what happens we're not a full committee right now and we need to be you can have you can call a meeting I think even without a chair yeah right I guess my feeling is is that you know whenever you have conflict in you know like in my house it was a conflict right my kids's got a messy room or whatever if I lay out the expectations and say look this is what what we're looking for and this is why we need it and these are the expectations you don't have to be a jerk day one or day two but by day you know 65 boundaries been set and I think it sounds like there's been a lot of tension like we heard at the fin Regional there's this is happening around the state clearly um so maybe we like to your point if we're building that bridge with them if we lay out in advance we want to meet with with you at these times we want the reports at these times this is what we're what we're hoping for to be continuous right we don't want to just do it for 2025 we're going to do it consistently maybe that would help them manage it a little bit better rather than being like Hey we're being adversarial we want to meet with you now I don't know how it goes I mean I'm new I think that's what we're working toward so they have set up for meetings because they have the two that we just talked about and then they have March 5th and then March 19th I was going to suggest one after the you know the either late February or early March because then they'll have health insurance they'll have those numbers I think that at least Jack is trying to um Jack haens is trying to bridge the gap um and at least involve Regional Finance in developing the budget not just here's the budget let's talk about it but we do have to get the regional fin col straightened out and I think that hopefully going to have some answers after tonight's meeting about how are they going to move that forward y I was going to ask if we can ask for the um the updated custodial contract because my understanding is we never got that did we no typically it would be online but it's I don't believe it's on their website so I think that's something we should all have okay um knowledge of I don't know what kind of increases there are in this contract um but it would be just kind of good to know are we requesting the current assessment you know because we never got the current changes I know that Jack gave us sort of where he was getting the $800,000 out of but can we just get that in the budget line like The Bu the budget does that am I making sense late yeah we want details on how they they commentated this shot filled the short for yeah we asked dur in a school committee meeting he they sent it up the next day did I just not get it or maybe I did get it and I don't remember getting it I was able to time ago I was able to trace a few of the items like health insurance was reduced right by 320,000 we do have that I just I could see I could see that it was reflected in the budget balance for that line item and I could see that the things that were supposed to be restored were restored like the mckin vento transportation is one example okay um yep I apologize I don't I don't remember this is going great actually maybe we should ask another question of why the uh finance committee neither town has never been invited to contract negotiations for the unions was on tonight's school committee meeting as well not the bcom but the town Representatives so that's going to be discussed tonight because I think selectman Lopes would like to be at least an observer in the negotiations uh an observer not so much can't there is a law I think a statute that doesn't really allow him don't forget we're elected officials here yeah right but there's a statute that doesn't allow him because it's by Statute I and I I may be misspeaking so I don't want to speak too much but I think it's the school committee that controls the negotiations pretty much and the superintendent but he's asking if he can at least observe them and I don't that's being discussed maybe hold on I'll recognize uh select board member caboni just talking about schools I'm talking about cops fire guys Union all negotiations constitute a major amount of money for the town and the finance committee you know we could change that you're talking town just in general I'm sorry again Bob I misunderstood your question yeah ah it happens once in a while carbon you like to add um for the record Lorraine Carboni um Lakeville Massachusetts um so I served on your school committee for 12 years um went through the full regionalization so um it's been really great to sit back and actually see us at this point in um you know history where we are coming together as Two Towns um at the same table with at the finance committee level with regards to contract negotiations um because I've participated in those for years um there is always a representative from the select board um that can be part of the negotiation team but at the table when the negotiations are taking place it is the school committee so when they come out of the those meetings that's when the represent representatives from the select board would be able to participate in those conversations it is a select board that would be able to say you know this is what the town would have available uh to contribute toward um those contract negotiations but when the contracts are actually taking Place those discussions um it is the school committee they can't be a silent Observer so I know um the union can bring silent Representatives silent observers are these are these meetings taped ah secret meetings no just executive executive executive ah executive so money negotiations correct so you know and then there then there will be information that will come out in an open meeting that can be shared but until that negotiation contract has been agreed upon you you know you'll know when they come to a an open meeting so I mean all of these questions we're asking and these things we're demanding is just to protect the taxpayer of course we're trying we're trying our very best to keep things in control here and not have a real problem uh later on and if anybody hasn't been paying attention by next summer they're actually saying that we're pretty much economically going to go off the rails whether it's going to happen or not I have no idea but most of the E economists that I've read and some of the people I've talked to are pretty much saying the same thing big banks are starting to make moves now too so they sure are so my question is we that that rule that okay you cannot be part of is that statute or is that just contract with the that I can't speak to the you know to the law on that but um I just know that it's always just been the school committee that is allowed to negotiate those contracts I think it would be considered the same as you would do your police your fire you know that's usually a select board or a Town Administrator involvement so if we change those we can actually change school I don't know about that oh okay just checking um but I can say with regards to your Regional school committee um Regional fincom I know that was part of the regional Regional agreement and that was something that was agreed upon by both towns and listening to what you're saying here it's it was the same thing back then that it's about having representation and having a voice or being part of the process so if you have representation from your local towns coming together you you know and you can share your your current experiences or your current budget restraints together so you can work toward a resolution with with the schools um when it comes time for for Budget decisions so the you'll know as a Freetown representative in Lakeville as your representative coming to the table exactly what you'll be able to afford going into the next school year and that is why we that was formed so you both know you're both at the table CU before it was always you know just Town administrators talking but now it's actually your your finance committee and representation and unfortunately last year we didn't get that opportunity because they only had one only one Regional Finance subcomittee in December why was up question for the school committee I believe we asked didn't get an answer right you a representative on the when you ask the questions that you're not getting answers to how are you asking the questions are they in writing are they in a meeting format we combination some of the questions we ask by email and if we don't get responses or satisfactory responses we'll ask doing an open meeting and usually the response is they'll take it down and get back to you so we have emailed to questions we have asked questions we'll get back to you they don't get back to you to us so we ask again um we've been accused of bullying because we asked the same question multiple times and we just we keep asking because we don't get answers well the answers were very high level not you know or vague yeah extremely vague yeah yeah you get to ask him questions like how would you feel to be level funded I think this year it will help if we're providing the questions in advance um I think that would be a positive change um starting earlier and making it more of just the learning you know understanding versus you know finger pointing and I would just I mean it have to be in a public forum and say you know I've sent you three requests and I haven't heard anything back I mean that's unprofessional it's just unprofessional we do I mean right like businesses don't stay open Watch the meetings these meetings it's it's this and I agree with you consumers the taxpayers yeah but at the end of the day they in my opinion and I can't say is that they don't care because the the the answer is this is our budget this is what you're going to pay you don't like it then all the signs go up that we we don't care about the children so at the end of the day they hold the power we don't and US begging and stuff with with with with a stepchild yeah we'll get to you when we get to you that's how I look at it is there a way to have that conversation that doesn't feel adversarial well that's always our objective uh that's why Margaret and I came up with the idea again this with us partnering with two towns only started a year ago uh thanks will to Mar reaching out to me and other select board members who you know do the suppor of all the select board members but the point is that we've we come we come up with the approach where we have these meetings we get the questions we will submit to them to to Jack be last year so they're not blindsided it doesn't do any good to have them on hot seat blindsighted that was never on intent give them the opportunity to gather the information and then we'll have a follow-up meeting and we did that last year twice we've started in January had a followup we had a lot of great questions I'll be honest we didn't get any straight answers we got a lot of ducking and weaving but that was Prior staff members right I think you had some members that need a municip therapist threatened by this you know having I think one of the first meetings it was it was meant to be a good thing and it I don't know it wasn't it wasn't quite ke our objectives but it wasn't for lack of trying and we've learned and I think this year we're starting a little earlier way earlier because we didn't last last year we January yeah well the first we went to the December Regional Finance subcommittee where both towns expressed concerns or budget fiscal challenges fell on Def ears uh and then we started with our January so we're starting earlier this year we got questions coming out of here my and I will submit them and we're going to schedule another meeting within maybe two or three weeks we don't want to wa too long we'll talk about availabilities and stuff like that and then that puts us in a good position for the December Regional Finance subcommittee like I said we start here and we advance it through the Regional Finance subcommittee meetings uh and then we can start getting some guidelines and that'll help both Town administrators when they're developing their budgets too hopefully that's our objective I think it's worth noting I've gone to probably the majority of school committee meetings this year that since Jack was appointed in July the cooperation information has gotten a lot better absolutely so I I have high hopes for moving forward that you know we're we're going to create better continuity across the finance committees with this you know exactly exactly and that was a challenge we had last year the prior business manager y she's gone we got Jack and Jack has been receptive and responsive to all our requests it's a different demeanor yeah absolutely you know instead of a defensive exactly it's been a noticeable shift since since Jack has stepped into that role exactly yeah so we're optimistic we remain optimistic so with that do we have any other questions we'd like to ask the only question I have is we spoke about class size but I wasn't sure if we thought that was valuable information for us at this point um I think it could help just kind of see what they're up against or so a break a class siiz breakout type thing yeah I think that's important to know yeah so they would do is they'd show grade level and then they'd show how many sections and then the division gets you to the class size I think by grades in school yeah what about um the breakdown on special education needs and the increase year-over-year like it'd be interesting to see a trend how much more tried to crack that egg last year and I know it's Margaret and and Deb and I don't know if we've so last year we Sims report went down last year so the Sims the data hasn't been released yet from October 1 2024 I looked back last year it was released on January 4th oh um there was a drop last year of 77 total um after they projected a about a 200 increase in 200 students 50% increase which is one of the reasons that gave me real red flags at that budget because I'm like you don't go from this to this in one year but is special education including ESL or is it just truly like you know learning differences y number of I I so um if you look over the history it's been pretty consistent it's been pretty consistent in the high 400s like 490 students 475 students 490 people kids each year which I would assume even maybe the percentages are technically going up since our enrollment is dropping but it's but it's been but I don't know what it will be and they are consistently stating that they're going up actually I I I didn't quite understand but I think I understand what your question was uh special at as a whole what is a command is that what the question was because this not we're not just talking about teachers here we're talking about no understood AIDS and so forth yeah we're talking about assistance and assistance to the assist and you know there's there's a whole gamut of when you look through some of these budgets you'll see the special ed there's a bunch of things that go into it not it's not just one thing understood I heard her say that it was a 50% increase and that just that's what they projected and so they they were stating that they needed this large increase in the budget because they were increased this 50% of special needs and I question that I really question that which is why I get the class breakdown how many students per class how many because they were saying that they were going to be they were going to not meet the Mandate if they didn't have so many add so many teachers and I just I just wasn't adding up on any level for me um we asked them to not add teachers until the October town meeting they said no they were doing it anyway and then at the end of the day the numbers actually went down so it wasn't the teachers they wanted to hire they wanted to hire an administrator an administrator right and and it wasn't even they weren't even fighting for a teacher they were fighting for an administrator because they were going to have so many new kids so they end did hire correct they did and backfilled after saying they weren't going to backfill anybody so it's so yeah but it had it actually it ended up being pretty level to what it has been so that was dispelled so that's it's not really that's not really changed much that's not really been an effect on the budget I mean it was a huge those are huge is I mean I I I think they would argue that there it's been an effect in terms of of course anything to do with special needs is expensive and complicated and requires you know they have I'm sure they have higher and higher mandates but I'm not a special needs person but the I just I'm just looking at the numbers the numbers did not increase so the arguments that they made that they needed all this extra didn't come to fruition is what I'm saying okay thank you even in fy2 um part of that $800,000 you know correction for the budget they ended up um moving 368,000 into the salary for director student services plus team leaders but when we look at the budget report it's resulting in a $71,000 budget saving so I'm just a little concerned about that one too um unless it's that's being funded from a special ed Grant and that's why there's a savings but again if there needs to be a budget reallocation to another line that has deficit then you know I would suggest you know maybe them taking a look at that um because that was interesting to me in special ed and special ed is the department the budget that did not get included in the entire budget correct so just so you know that was the entire budget that just somehow didn't get added into the budget which is what created the deficit 8 yeah the $800,000 budget was because they just missed a department you can understand it just because they were doing things sort of archaically they they just missed an entire department in bottom line but seems like this is happening everywhere oper this isn't just us someone should buy them QuickBooks we can squeeze that into our budget right maybe get M quickin account um they utilizing a new they I think they are using a new system Jack has come along that I you know either way the assessment sheet is not going to be handled by that system so you know I would just caution everyone on the assessment sheet right that that is still going to have to be an Excel correct plugged um I think that they won't make that error again they'll just find a different eror hope no I'm hoping I'm hopeful it's going to be okay so speaking of special ed when we are ready to ask for information um I would recommend the out of District um you know just to get an idea on the census usually it was around 30 33 to 35 students those are high cost um students that can range from you know 35,000 to you know half a million dollars a student per year so um just to kind of get an idea of where that stands I think is that's again that's critical and it's tied into circuit breaker um as well so krien the the request is to get the breakout of the outer out of District specialized students just to get an idea of the enrollment really um because should we look at Trends is it is it we could ask we could ask for the for you know how many it can be a moving Target like they could literally get one tomorrow right that they have yesterday but um maybe to get an idea of of how many they've had uh the last few years it's not going to hurt but you know just knowing that at any anytime they could have a move in or move out for someone that doesn't qualify for services any longer and keep in mind that there isn't any cap on that the state the state is uh obligated to send that student or or especially if it's a dis a Disabled Student to the facility that best can be adapted to his his needs and uh I mean it could be if they might have to send someone to Texas with a nurse I mean it can the money can escalate but correct me if I'm wrong that the state has a special provision for for uh remuneration for the town for a situation like that is that correct yes so that's the circuit breaker piece so the thing with circuit breaker I just just looking at the cap the other day um they don't reimburse you for the first I think 52,000 of the cost for each per each you know qualifying student um and then it's a percent of that um and then there's another slice where they start they they started a few years ago reimbursing for transportation because that was never reimbursed for so um they are getting a considerable amount but you know for the $3.3 million that they're spending they're getting back if they're lucky one and a half million so it is a cost so and it and and it just depends on the school calendar you know where the student if a student moves into town halfway through this the the year it's going to affect the budget and it's it nobody planned for it if you have somebody that's severely handicapped that could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars potentially but you know it's something that's that you're not prepared for and it's not it's there's no way way that you that the budget of it yeah I you get paid the year after so a year in a re so you know but what you get the year after can be put towards the next year for that kid just for one year have to spend it within can't carry for more than one year I ask a lot of these questions too because um when we were at the regional meeting there was discussion about the impact from the next budget related to um some of I don't want to pick a controversial issue but there's a lot of students that need additional help particularly with um English as a second language those numbers were shocking um and that's why I was kind of wondering do we have that going on in this town and if we are are we getting reimbursed you following what I'm saying there's some big big numbers the gaps so I would say no because that goes through the Chapter 70 formula and because it's you know usually you know I'm not promising that it will be a minimum a district if it's not they'll get a much bigger infusion of Chapter 70 but ESL is a component of the formula um so you know we really have to look at the Chapter 70 workbook to see how many students they have an ESL it will be flag there I don't recall how many there were I do know it was growing but I don't think it's it's not like as obviously it's not as significant as you would see in some of our neighboring communities um but you know so if they ever meet the the criteria of not being a minimum Aid District that will certainly Drive the tuition rate up the ESL component okay but for and for now as their minimum Aid they just get that extra $30 per student so technically they're not getting paid for the ESL piece unless they try to find if there's any other grant opportunities I'm not aware if there are but that would be another Avenue is to explore and this is why their budgets are so wonky that's only one reason that's only one reason sorry I'll stop asking so many questions questions are important we appreciate your question don't knock yourself we like it CU I didn't think of that question any other questions that you will take back the only other question I would have is on the return for the assessments I know that there was some conversation you know in the past we've gotten refund by check um there are really three options under the law getting an immediate refund um applying it to this year's assessment instead of a refund or applying it to next year um you know so I just didn't know if there were any conversations around that Jack sent out an email just today or yesterday in next week that he's mailing a check okay great always take the cash yeah is that yeah next week so Town administrators just could decide that how you guys wanted it he or he decided it I think because that's what we've done in the past that's accurate so he just sent and I didn't sounds to me like the best option get the cash now right we don't we don't really get it until next cash notification I know it's good until next year I know well I'm not sure I was going to I think what I've done in the past and we may be having another special town meeting is that I've had the assessment reduced and I was able to use that money but I don't know that that will happen and then I I wasn't sure if right I had I'm like I have to go back and remember but I have done that previous we had at Tom meeting we had a thing um a warrant article that reduced the assessment that we were accepting we were reducing the assessment by this much right and so I was able to then use that money but I don't I'm like some reason it wasn't working for me I was like do if we have that maybe I'll do that so previously you chose the option to reduce assessment that's how we could accept the money we accept the money back and then I was able to that's how you did it last time yep okay but this time you're going to take the check that'll be come out no no we we got a check but in order for us to accept the check we had to reduce the assessment and it was like refund back from our assessment end of the day end of the day it's still the same thing right it's just a different way to get do that in the spring but then I could reallocate it immediately in other words I could then spend it I didn't need to wait and have it be put through free cash be certified and spend oh okay is that is it going to work that way this time it's not well you've already missed your opportunity but if it's only if we have another town meeting oh okay a special town meeting you got you gotta go to the town meeting yeah okay yeah we need a vote got it so take the payment and use it next year next fall yeah next year's budget be free cash do we know if there's any regulatory cap on their excess and deficiency that they they okay 5% 5% of their budget their budget they're almost at 5% now they are at five that's why they're giving it back right so 5% is like 2.25 and they were they over 3 million they had three million in change so they had to reduce it they had to give it back to the towns yep it's 5% of next year's budget makes sense that's why the chck was so sweaty all right anything else anyone wants to bring up he's me for free all right Chris and I have a list of questions we'll work together to make them in English um send them out to Jack when we get replies we will send everything out to all interested parties um I think it's it's better just to have it go through Jack and I rather than everybody individually it kind of gets messy so we'll do that look like we give like a week timeline response he'll get back to us pretty quick I don't think well I said deadline because I'd like us to reconvene two three weeks what you rough uh when's Thanksgiving three [Laughter] weeks yeah it's two weeks two weeks a meeting on Thanksgiving is that I can get a couple of turkeys sounds good when Regional Finance subcommittee in December December I go it down 16 19 is 16 to 19 is going to be a long no no this is Jack's this is when he wants things he's not saying this is when you guys are going to have a meeting control anyway there isn't a meeting how about the first week of December yeah I think that works that's probably our best would it first week in December first week of December all right is a Wednesday the best for everybody 11 11th I cannot do that's not the first week they're busy the first I can all right I cannot do the 11th is that a Wednesday yeah ask me question it's the second Wednesday it's Board of Health uh 10th Tuesday I can do Tuesday the 10th we supposed to have call I don't know I think we do have a it's always a second Tuesday it just don't schedule I mean we just I mean I can send my treasure report to the G of separately uh 10th Mike 10th all right bar no you're not available on 10 sorry I'm going to be in Arizona a couple weeks might you're not in first two weeks of December are like almost impossible for me it's like a Dev let me check with Darren I you're Avail you're available on the 10th 10th I am available all right we check with Darren so Margaret and I will work for early December goal is to do it before the Regional Finance subcommittee right and again that meeting we going to invite Jack at Allan I assume yeah we can talk about that okay and school committee members yep we did it back in February of last year or end of January we have okay okay thank ask 12 13th yeah um Thursday not a Friday but a Thursday yeah Thursday still we we'll talk more okay I I'll I'll talk more to get you guys availabilities I'll talk to Darren too so okay okay next week's slide but all right I will entertain a motion to I'll make a motion J second all right all in favor we are adjourned as of 7:57 okay motion roll right and ey thank you [Music]