##VIDEO ID:8Xqtz45eQ4E## yeah okay we are we are recording now so so maybe maybe we we just skipped that one and I come back for the for the next meeting because that one I should be able to to get it down to the way I explain it to people when they ask me how this works so I should get it down to that and the the stuff of saying oh if anything's changed and and the weather is changed and all that others leave it out so so if we go the the next the next Colleen's got a good a nice packet did have you read the packet still have you reviewed it no I was out of town today I just got back a little while ago okay yeah I Colleen I didn't pick your packet up I don't believe I yeah yeah I got one I picked one up last week but not this week because I did I did look at the uh I looked at Pet's design and I looked at mcguinness's design well the first one is a building permits or regulation it says uh a regular meeting of the Board of Health in 2011 the board uh took the following mediately it says prior to receiving an application to build for the expanded use of a dwelling or place of business a per test must be conducted showing that a suitable size to area exist receptes for the modified structure meets Title 5 standards that's in Title 5 I don't think that has to be a regulation for us Title Five says if you're going to increase the potential use to the business the building you have to go through and fix the septic system up to the current Title 5 I don't see Bill that we need to have that at all so so what what date did we what's the date on that that regulation November 8th 20 and that was Mike Pandora Lee and me okay could you read the language again please yes I can it says prior to receiving an application to build for the expanded use of a dwelling or place of business a perk test must be conducted showing that a suitable size are exists percepted for the modified structure and meets current Title 5 St standard that only says the purose has to be done Title Five says the system has to be upgraded to meter well again again of course if they're on a sore that's a moood point um right but this doesn't this isn't a a regulation that the Board needs because there's already a more stringent one in title five that covers this very thing we should just throw this one away yeah yeah I'm I'm going to grab my title five at some point but I think I think you're absolutely right I think that is the language Let me let me yeah go hold give me one second here hold on if if you haven't read read it bill this packet and Lee isn't here Le here this is Le y Lee have have you had a chance to go through all these regulations that Colleen sent I I reviewed the one for last meeting that one's online Colleen was it the same group that you sent online a while back yeah yeah I've looked at those dick in fact I can I can give me one second I'll go on my computer and I can actually download those hold on one second here I wonder if that thing that we did with Mike Pandora those years ago was because of a of an issue it had to be an issue of particular uh site in town could have been bring that up yeah but it turns out that is the title five says that if you're going to increase the potential use of the building it has to meet the title five standards for septic system this one is absolutely that's in there anyway it's in there in fact the Title Five regulation is more stringent than this one so that being said uh we should obviously I think what where we're heading here is is to adopt or just simply uh honor the title five regulations since they're tighter tighter than ours yeah this one doesn't make our list that goes to the state we don't need it and it y the next one we got to was the building permit regulation this is also by by you and Mike and me and this one is really I don't think it's a Title Five regulation it's a policy of the Board of Health and what it says is building permits shall not be approved or authorized by any member of the Board of Health or its agent until the following items are complied with now this is a building permit regulation not a Title Five regulation and it's a policy of the board of signing it and that one of the things that says is a a lot plan shall accompany the building permit or disposal works construction permit showing the property be to deserve boundary Dimension area square feet location of the proposed house the well the septic tank leach field perk test and test fit data that's all for the design of a of a septic system so when I look at this it's nothing on Title Five this is this is the Board of Health signing a piece of paper and I don't think this belongs in this group this doesn't say there's anything more stringent if you were to write this and say this is more stringent than Title Five Title Five doesn't talk about the Board of Health signing regulation signing building per well yeah I mean that's yeah that's uh that's another office's area of expertise and and permission not ours certainly could have this as a policy of the Board of Health which we've done that is saying this is our policy but it's not Title Five let's is this is not GNA work well I don't think without without dick I've got him in front me I got here's here's what I've got Colleen on the 28th of October she sent I'm I'm going to read these regulations regarding septic systems January 1 1976 and then septic hauling regulations 2011 then septic regulations in addition to Title 5 56 1985 and then septic system regul inspections Fe AR 18th 1998 and then septic system leeching Fields uh April 25th 1983 and then sanitary code Title 5 inspectors 11397 so so let me know which one you're reviewing and I'll just click on it okay it may be the though to do it means you're going to have to start reading it right now these before no I've read these before a couple of months ago I went through all of them okay the first the one I'm doing right now is building permits regulations November 8th 2011 okay let me take a look hold on yep I have that copy as well has got this one labeled feat three yeah hold on yeah okay this is the my feeling pH is that this is a policy of the board that says we won't sign off on a building permit unless someone gives us this and it's nothing to do with Title Five it just happens that it covers syic system but this is not a Title Five change if you were to write this and say where would this fit in a something that that's more stringent than Title 5 it doesn't Title 5 doesn't cover this at all yeah I've got it right here it says in a regular meeting of the bo November 8 2001 it's a one you just read Pandora yourself and Lee okay right yeah I think that's more administrative than anything that's what I think it just doesn't belong it belongs as our policy but it doesn't belong going to the state as a a change in Title Five I I agree Lee are you okay with that one too that makes that makes perfect sense okay the next one I have is disposal Works installers permit regulation and that one is published May 1st 1983 okay let me find that one now okay this says septic system reaching field regulation April 2 this one is disposal Works in solar permit regulation now this the one I have is septic system leeching field it's the one that says you have to have 500 square feet of leech pit yeah that's the wrong one you're not looking at that one okay let me go back this is 1983 right let's take a look that it was actually it's interesting that's when it says it was published but it says approved and adopted November 8th 2011 this is also by Mike Lee and me conen do you know what day you sent that to me because I'm looking I've got my emails open here oh no I don't I don't have that that's why I put them in the packet so yeah I don't I don't Rec call I sent them a couple times so let's bill when you get the packet we're going to come back to that this is number four page four the next one is page five and it's called installers GL haulers compliance sign off and it was November 8th 2011 okay I've got that one as far as I can see in fact it says the Board of Health voted at their meeting on November 8 2011 to follow Title 5 regulations so if if all we're doing is voting to follow the regulation that's not a different that's not a more stringent regulation it just says we decided we're going to follow the rules so I don't see that it says that it ISS prior to the issuance of a certificate of compliance the theal system installer and designer shall certify in writing on a form approved by the department that the system has been constructed in compliance with CLE five the approved design all over what's the date on that dick that was November 11 2011 see I've got one yeah I've got one nove the one I have November 8th 2011 it's called hauling regulations that's a different one so you don't have this one this is number five so we can come back to that one when you've got them build but this one says and It quotes Title Five and it says we're telling everybody we're going to follow title five but that's Title Five it's not a regulation that's more stringent it just says we're going to follow the current law but you will have to come back to that one then so here's the colen's got this next one excuse me is number six it says items that need to be replaced in spite of acceptable Title Five and inection report that's ours this is uh made on 8123 82923 and 11624 all one is the septic tank under 1500 has to be replaced the next one is that the water table it says should be determined it as compared with must be determined you have to this one bill yeah not to confuse things dick but I found the previous one that you essentially adopted the state regulation on uh po compliance sign off this is the state regulation it's not that's not something that's in addition to Title Five it's already there right that's right and that one's also dated November 8th 2011 right so you Lee and Bill you agree that if it's already part of Title Five it doesn't belong here because it's already part of Title Five that that's my opinion yeah yes yeah I agree so Colleen that's not gonna go okay so now we're left only with number four that we'll have to come back with but this one is our this one maybe we're gonna have to come back to talk about because the the three things that this covers are the are the 00 gallon tanks the 3 foot water table separation and the issu with the the nitrogen reduction system and and we backed off on the the nitrogen system however that what we we've been struggling a little bit with this is the what we're doing with the shallow wells in those in those conditions we've had some we've mostly we've been testing and we've been saying that that the wells going to have to be replaced at some time but but uh what I'd love to talk and not I think maybe at this meeting would be whether we really want to say if we've got one of these little lots that we just tell people we're not going to let you fix your septic system unless you fix that shallow well but but tonight shouldn't be a time to do that I don't think yeah yeah that that's going to be a fairly lengthy discussion dick let's table that one okay so I'm gonna move that off colen so that's number six moves off to the site seat four and seat six the next one is Colleen sheat seven which is the big one regulation regarding septic systems in the town of grany which may supersede the state minimum standards January 1st 1976 okay I got that okay as as I'm looking through this thing that I'm wondering if where you've got number one it says besides those specified here all other system particular shall conform to the state minimums I don't that to me that doesn't matter it shouldn't even be there because that's the LW say it has to do that then number two says a fee charge for disposal works construction permit shall be $10 for repair number three fee charge for new system shall be $20 and I question whether we can if we want we can say something like fees will be charged for the the installation or modification of septic systems if we want to say that but we shouldn't put 10 and $20 for sure well that clear that clearly suggests it is 1976 so if we want to put something it seems like you put a a generic statement that says there's going to feed there's going to be a fee that that's all you say you say that's right you don't give the fee schedule you just say there will be a fee right so we could put that that says there be a fee for any any repair or installation of a septics right the next that next it says the following may be way by the grany Board of Health on repair installation that probably belongs at the very end but but the the first one is no septic tank leeching field septic I'm just questioning whether you put in parenthesis put no systems and then parenthesis septic tank uh bleaching field sub SE pool privy I said may be Construction constructed within 100t of a well now the only thing that's different on that one is the septic tank the rest of those already already covers the 100 feet so in reality it's only saying no septic tank should be within 100 feet of any well the rest is already Title Five and then the question is do we want that at all well again there's certain instances where there's geometric constraints on Lots due to pumping or other uh physical constraints where I I think it is okay to permit the septic tank to be closer than 100 feet again Case by Case by casee basis with proper engineering Provisions to assure uh system performance so do we just you got you got to remember dick Title Five by itself currently allows us to wave everything except two or three parameters it's right in title five right but this one says 100 feet is what you're looking for on new systems we I don't think we ever miss it on a new no not on new but I mean repairs I'm talking about rep all of these can be waved there are right and and that's what this yeah and this and this paragraph set pertains to repairs no this is for new yeah it says installation yeah but it says right above the lead on to this is the following may be waved by the grany Board of Health on repair installation right go that just that just gives us the option on a Case by casee basis of waving some of these things right but the question is since Title Five already says it can't be within 100 feet why do we duplicated other than the septic tank the septic tank says 50 feet on Title 5 so that is a difference no but Title 5 allows you to wave the well off upset on a Case by casee basis with a variance right but the question is do you have the do you want this regulation at all or do you cross it out and well that's right I think it I think it's somewhat uh it's Superfluous it's essentially Reinventing the wheel as as current Title Five is written well it says if if you don't want someone to put it within 50 feet let's say let's let's say you have a tank that's directly up gradients of a well right and and even if it's a if it's a shallow one this thing if you take this regulation out the installer can say look at Title Five says that you I can go within 50 feet and you guys can't do anything about it because it says I can do it because we don't have a rule that says versus if you leave the rule then you can wave it but I see what you're saying so that that gives us at least a bite of the apple on that particular situation yeah yeah sure that's for sure the leeching field septic pit best pool of privy don't belong on this line because it's already covered on Title Five that is 100 feet right yeah so so Cross leeching Field septic pit Cesspool and privy cross those just leave the septic tank yeah okay it's fine the next one is no well may be installed within 100 feet this is the the opposite of that that says a well can't be installed within 100 feet of those things now Title Five doesn't it probably doesn't hurt to have this here but I don't think Title Five deals with the placement of the well actually I think in the last revision I think in the last revision dick they did include that language but I'm not sure of it and I'd have to research it but why don't we just leave number four as it stands the next one is no system may be installed with it and system we we need to Define that's where I I changed you either every time you're talking about a system it needs to be put in septic tank leak field septic that whole thing or else you have to put a definition of system someplace because the number five says no system may be installed within 100 feet of the main high water line of any water course such as ponds Lakes swamps Brooks rivers or open subsurface drains you you know we should have a definition set we should have definitions but that would that's something else that would take time to craft but again defining a system might not be a bad idea well that's why I'm saying because it doesn't tell you what you're talking about right and that's and we have to be careful because this talks about an open or a sub surface drain and we we better understand that that's a pretty nasty thing that's put in there because if you look at an an open land drain that's a Swale right and and I don't think we want that in there and we and someplace we've got it later on it talks about footing drains and and and we really need to talk about that if if you I've had an issue for instance that says let's say you you're in one minute an inch soil and your your SAS is 20 feet away from your building foundation and you had a footing drain that thing is that your sewage is going right down into your sewage putting drain and going out wherever it's going so you've got all this rule that says you won't be 100 foot for a to a brook and then you've got a connection 20 feet away from it that shoots it right out to it that is possible there is a further down in this it talks about whether the footing drain is down gradients of the SAS if it if it's UPG gradient of the SAS then you don't have that kind of a problem so we my suggestion right now we've used up our half hour right my suggestion is at our next meeting we we started again 15 minutes early but take as an assignment to really pick these things apart dick I suggest we concentrate on this particular document the January 1 1976 document I think that's the most difficult document in the set so I recommend we take we start with this and we con we finish this up next time I could support that Lee what do you think okay yeah number seven only yeah yeah seven and and it's 13 minutes after the hour so why don't we uh table this discussion and move on to regular business okay y okay let me find my so before we forget uh minutes for the January 7th I didn't have any changes to it for January 7th 2025 meeting are we okay with that yes that's good okay we've got Bob St is is on board I can just look at let me give the review of of what I said for for Bob system this is a lot one a16 Morgan Street so if you to get us oriented if you're going down Morgan Street from from Pleasant Street uh you've got a couple of Jimmy try's new houses on the left and then you've got an older house that's got a ray system on the left this is across the street from that there's a there's Frontage on Morgan Street and then it opens up into 57 Acres this and it there's Woods that go between Morgan Street and the open field this is towards the field side of the wood yeah there's a there's a there's a Pine Forest in there with a lot of White Pines entering that proper that's because you actually go into the edge of that that's right you go into the northern Edge to get into this lot right and you actually go up an elevation it goes up about five feet in elevation there yes so this is a complete system it's a new three-bedroom house the SE is paid the review is complete it's a mainly wooded lot in this area it's open in the back but deep sand 43inch water table there are wetlands way to the west and also to the Southwest that that the Stony Brook kind of comes in it goes in to the west but you've got some as you go past this lot there's Wetlands that go underneath the road and and the this is away from that see it's a new 1500g two compartment tank with an outlet filter got 336 foot by 3 foot wide by one and a2t effective sidewall frenches 452 gallons a day provided versus 440 needed a reserve areas between and adjacent to the trenches fill is required he's got 5 foot water table separation ballast is not required the septic tank in the SAS separation of the wells and wetlands All Above 100 feet and what we need to discuss is a trench permit requirement still requirement I'm concerned that the the temporary Benchmark is just a nail in A3 and I my feeling is that we need some kind of a written plan to identify that tree and the nail and to protect it so it doesn't get moved but those are those are my thoughts on on this particular system what are what are Lee and Phil what are you thinking my only comment dick is have Bobby run that bike conservation it's got to come by conservation I could I could accept that gentlemen this is Bob Sheen and that would have to happen regardless be uh for the building perm to go to conservation okay okay hi Bob how are you so Bob I that that comment I'm I'm concerned with a nail in 83 as being the temporary Benchmark that that somehow to identify and make sure they don't cut the tree down and and they don't move the nail and and just some plan that says this is what we're going to do to protect that I I think you've done that on on another job recently too but yes uh uh the property owner is the Builder and uh uh I have advised him of that the tree is heavily flagged uh he and I spent time out there okay what trees are coming down what trees are going to be saved and he said absolutely this Oak is going to be saved uh it's been flaged heavy uh he is aware I will reiterate that uh that that it can't be cut down yeah maybe go in and take another shot if you can you know set your scope up and hit the the crown of the road or something and swing it and say okay I've got a a double check or something some plan Bob that says this won't be lost you know what I would do dick I've have them take a couple of photographs of the nail in the tree so you know the uh height that the nail is in the tree and you have a good reference that way okay something about to make that happen Bill to what you just said that nail was set by me and it is exactly 12 in above grade uh for that purpose just to make sure that I knew where it was what elevation it was above the existing grade so okay because I I I've seen over the years Bob again not in this town but I've seen over the years in other communities that some individuals will take the nail move it down a foot and gain a foot elevation that way I I understand uh that will not happen in this case as well as I don't know if the board noticed a note that I had on the plan that the corners of the leeching facility the corners of the house and the well must be staked out prior to the start of any excavation construction and I have to be called and review everything uh prior to anything happening out there I want to I don't know who the installer for the septic system is I want to make sure that no mistakes are made in the early stages of this WR that down Bob if you can just write that down and say this is how it's going to be done and just give it to Colleen and we'll put it in the file and it will be done well it's it's on the plan deck okay so so are we approving this one guys oh oh yes yes Lee okay me too calling okay yes the next one that we next thank you gentlemen have a good evening thank you the next one we have is is actually Tim mcginness is on this one the review is not complete uh I did I didn't do the the review I've got a list of 15 or 14 items that that weren't covered but the important thing that I needed from the board because without it I can't I can't work with Tim at doing the the review is as I look at this house what colen has looked up for me is that this is on record as being a three-bedroom house and it's now a five-bedroom house um normally going from a three-bedroom to a five-bedroom according to Title Five and our regulations as well is that change would have required a conversion to a five bedroom tidle 5 septic system and and that's not what's there and what this this change is doing is saying let's bypass the the title 5 regulation and then let a repair go in not following five tital 5 regulations so so as a board we need to make a decision of saying do we make this comply that just because someone may have made a change to a a dwelling without complying with Title 5 do we just let that go and say everybody ought to do that it saves a bunch of money and or do we say you know time is to make it right and do it the way it should have been done my feeling is that's what you should do but Bill and Lee let's talk about it as a board so we obviously have no record of um an application to um expand this particular location from three to five bedroom colen looked it up and she did not find any no okay then then then I I I have to agree um that it's time to repair the error from the past and bring it right where it should be in the light of day Bill what is your thought okay I'm reading the I found the regulation it's 15204 so 310 CMR 15204 increases in design flow to system and it's worded kind of oddly no person shall increase the actual or designed flow to to any cess poool or to any other system above the existing approved capacity or change the type of establishment of a facility served by a Cess pool unless the cess pool or system is upgraded first upgrades to accept increased design flow shall be performed in full compliance with the requirements applicable to new construction unless a variance is allowed persuant to 310 CMR 1544 for purposes of 310 CMR 15204 that that's this paragraph the approved design flow shall be the flow listed in the most recent disposal works construction permit documentation so that's the way it's worded dick that would when I look at that it's funny they really emphasize the word Cesspool yeah but it keep going back to system too yeah because it always says or system now they could get a variance that's it does say that they could get a variance but that we're not at that point yet right right I looking at the property I would guess that that him is going to say you know what I can't F this in or I'm you know he's that say this is something that that just doesn't fly here but we haven't looked at that so I do have some other issues with it is this is a typ a if you and there's another we should talk about it because it's G to affect what goes on this is a Class one soil if you look at at this soil Tim has made an assumption that the water table is going to have a gradient that's parallel to the to the to the current grade which I'm not sure what the prior grade was but my experience is that you're not going to have you know a class one soil does not support a very steep water table gradient so that's without looking at the water table the actual colors I don't think you can make that assumption the next is that if you look at the perk test the bottom of the perk test was done at 40 in and 39 in is where they saw water so that this perk test was done more than likely at and really really maybe even below the water T but they for sure if you look at at the data that Tim has provided us if you look at at 12 in to 9 in the water dropped after a good honest soap from what it looks like there was a good honest shot at saturating the soil that that 3inch drop only took four minutes from from 12 to 9 but once it got down into that soil that's that's wet it slowed down to to 10 inches to make the next three in drop so my feeling is this is this is definitely two-minute soil it's class one soil fans and the high water table gave a a false reading which then comes up and say gee we we get rid of a foot of protection instead of Designing it for two minutes we design it for 3.3 minutes when in reality that's not what this soil is so so that again we'll we can I guess pem and I going through the reverse view process can talk about that but but the the issue that I needed help from the board with is whether the standard was we're going to be talking about a Title Five system that's our goal right now a current Title Five system no no dick who was the original designer I don't know it could have been I can't remember Tim do you know who it was you're muted Tim G unmute I don't think I can unmute you Tim yeah yeah he's got to either push his space bar or click the little icon push your space bar on your computer Tim now you're still you're still muted and I I okay I got it I think I got it oh you got it Tim now we can hear you I I have a Title Five report that's all I had was was the original title five report from 96 and that shows three trenches 60 feet long which which is huge I think for three-bedroom house and a 2 minute per inch perk rate you know let me ask let me ask you a question Tim what what's what's the separation the inside separation from trench to trench how many feet eight eight feet right the trenches themselves are four feet wide and I did I did not put a reserve area in because there's a um a drainage easement at the at down by the road on East Street so I you're talking about the original I'm saying the existing system existing one I don't know it doesn't say it just says that they're 60 feet long there's two going in One Direction and One going off off I don't know if it's north or south but it's going off to the left so three trenches I'm wondering if there's room to put the new the new trenches in the reserve area dictated by the original design look to me Bill when from Tim's drawing it doesn't look like there's space I'm guessing when we're before this is done going to rip the existing trenches out and put them this in that spot because it that's definitely the higher area right but I think the the answer here is we shouldn't design the system here what we should be saying is is the goal of this is to have a tial five system for a five-bedroom house current Title Five and let's see where that sends him the other is that on my my drive past there looks to me like there's there's Wetlands that come in someplace in the back of this house it looks like it it comes in bill I don't know if you recall that the wetlands zigzag through that that whole property yeah yeah I'll call up when I say property I'm talking about that halahan Murphy yeah the whole yeah yeah I'm going to call that up right now are you talking about behind his house can he like the wetlands come up in there I did not see them and I I probably could have looked a little bit better but isn't there a house there there's a house to the west but it looked to me like the house to the West that maybe a buddy it's hard to tell when it drops down there's a stream that goes to the the west of the house to the west and it looks like it wraps right around behind the house that's to the west and then it comes right around this thing so someone to at least look and see if that's may it may be for that drainage easement you know there is a drainage easement there on East Street so it might come down like the West boundary of this property and then like flow into that 20 foot drainage easement got to look at it that's that's all to see if there is a a wetland so but again this is we should not be this is not the the time to be going through a design review on something that we don't have a design yet to be talking about but our process is that this gets done outside and we we will be here till 11 o'clock tonight doing this and we won't have the right information so so you want something that's in full compliance with Title 5 as it as a five-bedroom house plus the extra 110 for gry so 66 what we would say I I fully expect you to be backing into what bill just talked about and says holy Machel do you know what this does and I and say we need some kind of relief this just can't be done whatever I that's what I expect to happen to that's going to require most likely that's going to that's going to going to require a pump system and if we dig out what's there and fill that with Title 5 sand we're talking about a very very expensive system um other than the two foot separation to the water table and the 40% reduction in the size of the leech field everything else complies with title five I mean if if you were that's that's that's exactly what doesn't compli with tital five right if it's a repair it does but if it's not a repair it has to be new it has to be new construction and there's no 4ot se I mean there's no twoot separation so unless you were you you were willing to give we don't give a two we don't give a two foot separation anyways ever never oh so we don't do that and then we we look and we go back and say if you're starting from side foot required not forfeit required then you're you're still talking about some some issue here yeah all right so this this can't be the time that we do this though if we've got a we've got another appointment that's right behind you and and uh so so so I should go back and and and look at it and and then come up with a design that's in full compliance with Title Five with yeah what what I would certainly do rather than kill yourself I would be roughing it you know as we we all can do it and say this is how rough what's gonna happen is that really what you guys are going to be requiring or are you going to be willing to do some variances and and uh as Bill pointed out there's there's room in Title 5 for us to do something but you have to start by saying this is the reason we want it that's right okay yeah come up with something reasonable and then see what variance makes the most sense and and is still protective of the environment that's all all right I'll talk to the owner and and maybe we can maybe he'll agree to dig out what's there and if if we did that uh you know would you go with a four-foot separation to the water table instead of the five get that we can't answer that right now we have to you have to come up with what you think well I I did get a three minute per inch perk rate so that well I can get a three minute come on Tim if you go down and go to where the W the thing is saturated you can get you can slow it right down that if you look at what it is up top where the you were above the water it went like crazy and it you've got a you've even got a thing from the the 1995 or with 96 whatever it is but there's a perk right there that said it was two minutes an inch too that's true and it said a water table was more than four feet yeah what what could have happened we've got the installers on that project actually got his license taken away for for not following designs and so they they've stripped soils out and moved it and put put systems in pill instead of sand and so there's some there's some history that there could have been a problem there okay you know what I think I think I'm gonna I'll I'll propose a something with you know full compliance and a 4 foot separation to the water table but still use the Elgen instead of getting the 40% reduction we'll we'll get the actual size that's required for stone and pipe yeah the the Elgen will give you give you the most compact system for the for the flow rate that's exactly right right that's what I want to keep you know if I can keep it small like that yeah now the other thing is is the existing system is it in fill is it in artificial fill I believe it's in sand if it's in Title 5 fill and then you hog out the old system all you have to do is place the the FED areas with Title 5 sand and you're back to square one and if you use an Elgen you get much more capacity for for per lineal foot so you might be able fit it in the same footprint yeah the other thing Tim that that you ought to think about is where I I don't know if you heard me while you were muted but with that perk rate and I I don't think you're going to see any significant water table gradient in that area and where you thought you would I think you won't but going on your on the good part the bad part is it didn't let you do the terror system going down into the low area the good part is that probably the area that the existing system is that us up in the air could in fact be four feet above the water table we just don't know anything about it all right we have to okay we're gonna have to move on we've got our our next appointment is here and we've gotta move so will you give me something in writing or or do you want me to just talk to the owner and come up with something else well we just got what the board said the board said the goal is to is to design a title current Title Five system for gramy regulation okay all right I appreciate it thank you for your time good night right thank you good night bill now we've got Mike is here not Mike petus let me read what I've got for for Mike and uh so this one is this one on on the thing that I sent to you guys is Mike petus 62 trouy Street it's a repair a complete system three-bedroom house the C is paage the review is complete it's a this part of the lot this a cleared grassy area around the house it's actually 63 Acres with with glacial till of 51 inch water table there's Wetlands to the the rear to the South uh issues the the till the high water table I when Mike and I talked and and when we look at one of the holes looks like the filling operations in where the system is supposed to go at least I have questions on it as issues the design is for a 1500g two compartment tank with an outlet filter got a 20 by 40 actually the area that that it's an issue I didn't talk about the area that Mike's trying to work in is kind of a limited area but he's got a 20 by 42 foot Paris PR Presby bed with 280 ft of pipe vented uh 440 gallons a day is provided versus 440 required there's not a reserved area Mike is asking for three-foot water table separation palast is not required for the tank the existing septic tank is going to be pumped crushed and filled there is a citation sent specified there are variants requested for a 3ft to 4T groundwater separation uh oh I've got B twice that it's not required the building score is going to need to be raised the garbage grinder that's in there has to be removed uh the septic tank and the SAS separations other Wells and Wetland more than 100 feet items to be discussed is that the the print trench permit is required and the drawing has that be noted oh the mic's just sent out a drawing with it noted The Fill is required the drawing note requiring that the board of health inspection of the soil under the SAS just to make sure that that there's it's decent soil that's there or if it's if it's still or there one of the notes says that the B Horizon down deep uh the drawing note needed to require as I said that that the the Deep falls under the SAS should be oh the the last one I said is the pH required is that the Board of Health requires inspection of the strip the next one is that people be dug under the proposed SAS wello need a cross-section I it was difficult for me to tell that this was a Terrace system and Mike in fact has already added that view through it showing the tering uh that there's a plumbing permit required for building T change and the garbage grinder removal uh that we typically would be saying that the septic system permit won't be issued the design would be approved but the permit not be issued until the garbage grinder is removed and that that permits for a three- foot versus 4ot water table separation uh reduction now that just on the three-foot versus 4 foot what happens uh we're on on a Presby system the code actually allows us to go to as low as a two foot separation the board uh in this particular case it's a difference between having a pump and not having a pump if we Grant the three-foot Mike can get a non-pump system in the board on several occasions in this situation has granted the three foot from 4 foot separation we have not granted anything lower than three feet but we have ranted the 3-foot and and we feel pretty certain that the 51 in water table is a good one that that actually Lee and Mike looked at it and then bill went out to make sure that that uh ramby had the had a person there that that was qualified like to to do that so that's where we are uh Lee and Bill what are your thoughts I'm fine dick you verified all the elevations and all and as long as you're good with uh the elevations that Mike submitted again the only thing that I saw on the field is a restrictive lay at 4 and 1/2 ft Mike you showed that on the plan set yep and that that's Lee what are you thinking um yeah I'm I'm reading the um the print as as you're and Bill are chatting I don't see anything that was missed here at all we're gonna we're going to Grant the threefoot so we're going through Mike's already made it on the drawing that's around that that requiring the board of health inspector strip we've got requiring that a print permit was there he's going to Mike I couldn't find where you required us to to look at some deols under the proposed SAS but but we'll make it it as part of that disapproval yeah and I do have it I do have it as note 14 under design notes okay okay it give three-day notice to both offices so okay you you did say that you thought that the the garbage grinder has been removed already but we'll have to have a a verification that that that's done so coming permit for for the change in the building tour and the removal of the garbage disposal and a verification that it's done before we actually Grant this permit I know the owner has contacted his plumber I spoke to him I want to say last Friday and it wasn't done as of yet so he did say that he would have them pull the permit Okay so we've got that we've granted the three foot to four I mean the 4 foot to three foot variance so uh it looks like those are our lists and then and so you're all set yeah yeah if there's any questions but yeah I think we hit all your points that we discussed okay thank you Mike good good job Mike well thanks guys have a great night okay all the best thank you okay okay so let's let's move to our our other items uh we've got actually we've got rather than go on to that I 745 we've got Diane Percy as an an agenda item uh I don't see Diane here yeah I think that's her number I'm here oh you are okay so what what we we have is the colen asked Diane if if she would come in in fact Colleen asked us to to come in and we've got a a situation that the board is has ordered that the property at 12K Lane not be reoccupied until a a Title Five uh test I'm calling it a Title Five test but it's a a test be made to see if the the system the existing septic system does comply with with Title 5 and that it was a condition that that the property could not be reoccupied and up till a short time ago the the the test had not been done but the property had not been occupied and at this point it it appears that the property is occupied and so we're we're in a in a position that that the it's a violation of this order and and Diane has asked to to come in and and talk to the board and the board actually has to take some action we've got uh issues of of complaints from a a neighbor but the the state the D is involved with this as well and they've contact actually the D is contacted me and uh would definitely feels that this is a a board of health issue not a a d issue and the board uh I mean not the D has stated that they would much prefer that the board make sure that that this does get addressed so so I I think unless bill or Lee unless what I'm saying is not correct at this point then we ought have I asked to to come and talk to us we ought to let Diane speak actually dick before we do that could you read the order the official order that we issued to Diane could you read the text or maybe Diane can read the text I cannot read it I don't have it in front of me though okay Diane I trust you have that in front of you oh uh I'm not real sure um again of course I'm not sure about all of this but I'm not sure uh What uh what prompted the order that you're talking before we get to that ma'am colie you must have it could you read it please I want I want the exact language of this order uh okay let's see uh June 21st uh 2024 letter was sent to miss Percy uh Dear Miss Percy on March 27th oh I think that was when the order was so wait a second uh March 27th uh yeah there were a few letters um the one of them is the official order I want you to read that one please let me see the original uh let's see March 27 that was March 6th I think was the first letter that went October uh let's see jar Miss Percy this was March 6 d um okay uh the March 5th uh 2024 Board of Health meeting board discussed the septic system at 12K Lane upon observation of water seen at the property and water in the area the septic system does not comply with the water table separation of Title 5 regulations the board is requiring that no waste be put in the ex existing septic system at 12K Lane in that miscellaneous workers must use Sanic can the board is requiring the title 5 inspection to be made of the septic system the board is also requiring that the house not be occupied unless the title 5 inspection indicates the system is in compliance or in the event the septic system does not comply system must be replaced with a Title 5 compliant system uh there was a next letter subsequent hold on hold on hold on on Bill hang on because there's another one that says something different hang on yeah March 27 um the letter went um this the board is issuing this letter to supersede the letter of March 6 we are writing to inform you that the board believes that a sany can or other form of sewage disposal is required during renovation or construction the board believes the responsibility for ensuring that rest with the town building inspector um and then en closed was the copy that went to the building inspector concerning that two the board believes that your relocation of discharge from the Su pump from the back to the front significantly impacts the water table on your property the board is requiring you continue to discharge all Su pumps to the front of the yard properly so that ultimately the water discharges into the catch Basin on the street to the south of your house three the board is requiring that the dwelling not be occupied until our previously mentioned uh perk Title Five test of your septic system is completed and Report reported back to the board so this letter supersedes the other one what okay hold on hold on please please let's go back to the first letter Colleen read the first two sentences please this one supersedes that one yeah but well then you then you refer to it again dick Colleen read read the first letter please the first two sentences at the March 5th 2024 Board of Health meeting the board discussed the septic system at 12 kenlan upon observation of water seen at the property and water in the area the septic system does not comply with the water table separation okay okay again I'm playing Devil's Advocate on this dick okay pretend for a minute I'm not a member of the Board of Health okay so I'm I'm hearing that language obviously we had a lot of flooding this spring I think Dave's backyard was flooded Percy's yard was back flooded I believe others on that side of Ken Lane were also flooded so everyone's yard was flood flooded So based on the fact that the yards were flooded we essentially said well the yards are flooded therefore the septic systems must be flooded see and I think that's that's kind of a stretch dick I think that's a stretch assumption stop you have to stop the for discussed this and we said that is correct what you're saying is correct so that that's why the second letter came and said we can't Poss L say without knowing what's in the ground we can't say that it's failed all we can say is that we think it's failed and the data says it probably it's failed but we need to look and doesn't say it doesn't say that you can't even move in after you dig that do the test it just says you can't move into that property without doing the test that's all it say Okay okay so the whole point of doing the test essentially is to ascertain the water table is that right that's the main objective of doing this test to determine the high seasonal water table I don't think so I I think that's the main I agree with you Bill okay right what you may find out is that there's no all right so here's what I've done in the past couple of weeks I review a plan set for 10K Lane and that's to the south of the Percy property I've also reviewed the plan set for Dave Gaspar system one system shows the water the high water table at 52 in below grade the one on the other side shows it at 56 in below grade and the Sands are medium to coarse Sands so like you say dick they don't support steep gradients the water table is pretty consistent Bill come on you're an engineer you're not telling us when the tests were done you wer you're not talking about your hold hold on now you are a soil evaluator bill was there any but I'm saying dick please listen to me I'm coming up with a solution for us my thought is since the water table is the big point of contention instead of digging a deep hole and observing water at a single point in time along with the modeling which we're going to get to as well why don't we put in a small diameter monitoring well that way we can monitor the water table throughout the year as well as obtain the modeling elevation during the installation of the monitoring well and it would be a less expense for Mrs Percy and we'll have data going forward it's it's a win- win be a lot less expense and protect the environment bills is for some of the sick a hole in the ground and tell us what you really also saw there how deep did that when those soils were looked at where was the water table called the water tables the water tables were higher they were high they were about 24 to 28 Ines they were higher oh yes so now we know that you've got according to to Title Five you've had a system that's not doing anything to protect the environment necess want to look at it for another year you know you know the other argument is the re the reliability of modeling in coar Grain soils is somewhat questionable that's why I would rather have the realtime data on the water table than speculative data based on modeling and course grain soils that's just my opinion am I correct that you designed a system that street yes the one at number 10 correct and when you designed that system did you design it according to digging a hole in a pipe in the ground or did you design it according to what Title 5 say we did a we did a full test bit a full test bit was done there and where did you design it to the the models right yes we did yes we did 100 feet away from this You' behave one way and today you're saying that was all wrong dick I'm saying get real time data on the water table again the modeling approach is a very conservative approach very conservative we saw the water on the surface but it doesn't mean that that's the water table dick that is probably water infiltrating into the ground water infiltrating the last guy that just came in on on Jennifer Lane and GNA say you know what you don't have to follow Title 5 here we're not going to do that anymore we've got a different thing that the Grandy Board of H says the title five is all wrong and Bill Shaheen who decided that he was going to design something for a person next door who put all this extra fill in if it was wrong if you did it a 100 feet away you behaved one way Bill and we're talking about listen I'm just I'm just telling you what standard practice is standard practice is designing for modeling that is standard practice but from a pragmatic point of view I would like to see where the water table is right now and if her system if her system is above the water table right now I think we should let her operate her system until it fails but we're at the point right now bill that we've got an owner that won't stick a shovel in the ground we've got a reason at a board of health we have reason to believe that this system isn't working right and for some reason I don't understand it for some reason we're not going and saying this thing is we need to the Board of Health is saying in this case we're not going to do something to protect the environment and we do it behave a different way in every every other spot in town yet right now we're saying we're not gonna we're just GNA say we don't care if that's not protecting the environment dick there's another very interesting point which which is kind of ironic is earlier we were talking about footing drains and septic system offsets from footing drains think about it this one's coarse sand and the footing drain is being pumped out the street into the city manhole I agree with you Bill and the fact that this Stu is this sewage is going right into the water table it's going straight down the the footing drain and it's going right into the seore without any filtration it's in the water that's why it might it might be prudent to take do a couple of water samples on that water being ejected into the the storm drain there is to stick a hole in the ground to go out there and stick a hole in the ground and see where the water is that's what's proed again whether we dig a 10-ft test pit or a 4inch diameter monitoring well hole one is as good to me as the other day but I but I like having the luxury of having long-term water sampling data by a monitor well you get the water table elevation and you can extract samples and test them for coliforms I could I could accept that if you went and dug a hole to see where that is that you could come up with a plan and in fact when we said when we changed it from saying you couldn't liveed there unless you fixed it and made it a tital 5 system that first letter said that and we as a board said that's not fair that we get back into exactly what you're talking about saying you don't have any idea what's going on and in fact if you dug the hole and you found out that that pumping system that was put in to Pump from The Cellar into the street and that actually drop the water taable that you may end up saying you know what we don't have to worry about being that this is a crisis that when we do now you do exactly what you're talking about and saying you know is this thing all done is that water table that modeling is that there before Mike Zin put that that drain in 45 years ago or 55 years ago is that where it came from and by digging the Hol and saying yeah we saw that but that's a that's now really kind of a relic model it's not really appropriate and we don't have a crisis here at all this is a we really have a two foot separation and we got some time to study it that would make tons of sense that's right I agree that would make tons of sense but it wouldn't deal with the fact that maybe the that 75 year old septic tank isn't even there anymore you wouldn't know that but at least what you said about being the water being the thing that we're really afraid of here digging a hole would really show that I that and if you if you went down and you let's say you got in there and found out that the water table unfortunately was at actually above the models and it's a foot high and then we say oh we've got a really bad crisis now but if if what you're thinking is that you come out and find out that it's four or five feet in the ground then we can have some time to say let's look at this we don't have a crisis that makes to me that makes lots of sense but but what doesn't make sense to me is not digging that hole well we have to dig some sort of hole well I hope I hope Mrs Percy agrees to dig some sort of a hole for us if we did that I certainly could back away and say yep we can stand up in front of anybody in front of the state in front of the neighbors and say look it we've dug the hole that we don't have a flooded system here now we have time to figure out what we really have that we're working on but we don't have a crisis if that's the case then I certainly could support that I don't know Lee's Lee's sitting there I know Lee has told us that that he's got a conflict down there so I'm assumingly that you're not talking because of that well no I'm just reading the minutes from our meeting of March 12 2024 and um in paragraph nine um the discussion is that uh dick you had a conversation uh with the owner of number 12 and there was a discussion that there the water table was hot uh set system function is questionable and that uh everyone was in agreement that there would be a plan forwarded to fix the system um shortly after that at some point in time I got a call from Ellen Weiss to start to schedule something and then maybe a month or so after that maybe two months after that I got a call from MWI telling me that um the schedule had been um cancelled and that's the last I heard of um an attempt to explore the water table as well as the structure of what components are in the ground to help protect the environment so I don't know why we we thought we had a um a working agreement uh which appears to have been um put on hold and now terminated pH are you at a point that if you had somebody dig a even if if you went in with an auger and got four feet or five feet whatever you could get with an a auger it stand so when you when an auger goes through you're going to see modeling you're going to you it's not like we're looking for till and we're not looking it's we're in sand it's all it's all classical and yeah and and what's going to happen dick once you hit the actual water table the Sand's going to start collapsing so you're not going to be able to advance the hole much below the actual water table so if that's and if that occurs at at six feet down or five feet down or one foot down uh it if you did that would I think that that yeah I agree with your original statement though that it's it's the water that we're worrying about and if You' got a system that's actually underwater and not working then it's that's the one that to me would be a problem but I have no idea I have I have an idea but I don't know I what I don't have any idea about is whether what we did about ordering the water to be pumped to the front and having that pipe that the the town put in and whether the the system you know when when I saw the water on the surface I don't have an idea of whether that's a perch water table and that if someone dug a hole down three feet there wouldn't have been water under that I don't have an idea of that all I know is the the footing drain the the original footing drain modified to pump to the front of the house in my opinion will tend to lower the water table on that site but having the original footing drain pumping to the rear of the yard just creates a circle circular flow and it it doesn't do anything for the water table on the site but by pumping it down the street as we've done to discharge that in my opinion will have a tendency to lower the water table on the side I don't know by how much by 6 in by a foot by two Ines I have no clue but it will have so it could be by five with that class one soil as I talked about on oner Lane I don't think you can support a very steep water table gradient so if you know that the the bottom point is five feet down on the ground at the bottom of the foundation that five feet could go back an awful long way to the east you know you don't know where that I agree I AG I agree 100% dick so you look at that but we're back to the same well it's not exactly the same point we're back we're to a point that someone's gotta say where is that one and and Bill if if you said we're going to dig a hole there and see where we called the model we going to see where we called the water today and stick a pipe in to see where it continues to be and then once we have the data then you're G to come out with something that says you know what it's flooded and it's in trouble and it's got to be fixed right away because it's a terrible problem or you say you know what there's the old article 11 would have let you put that in that system they would have let you put the bottom of the SAS at two feet above the water table you might find out you say you know this thing's functioning in accordance with with article 11 which was the rule many years ago and the board's got to talk about what it's going to do but it's it's a big different on whether we have a big health problem or no health problem or a little health problem now here's the other there's the other bit of data that needs to be picked up is I'm trusting there's probably a cast iron sore pipe leaving the rear of the Percy dwelling I'm guessing and it's probably so many inches below the foundation sill so we can go on a quick assumption you know at a couple percent and then say forget about the fact that there's a debox but then assume that the system is at least a foot below where that pipe terminates so that way at least you can guesstimate without digging the system up where the likely bottom of the system is you see dick I yeah just based on that so again that gives us that's non-invasive information that we can gather but we still are at the point that someone's got a drill or dig that hole right that's right so if if we've got and it doesn't matter it doesn't matter who complains it doesn't matter what is is we're looking at we're looking at the environment we're looking at a situation and and the board has said there's enough reason to believe that something serious could be happening that we need to dig that hole now that that's a that's a difference from what the board said about doing a Title Five inspection what it really bill is what you said is that we need to know where the well you didn't say where the modeling but you did say as we went through it that that modeling is the accepted design standard but but what we really need to know is where that water table is right now and to get we we already know that it's it's class one soil so that's not what we need to know so what what we need to know is where's the model and where's the water table and that's it and then from that the board perfect sense I hope thinking yeah I hope Dave and I hope Mrs Percy are both uh good with that logic agree with it I I this is what I'm gonna say you guys made a decision from the very beginning when you sent that letter in March what you're going to do unfortunately now Mr Shaheen is telling you guys he wants to do something completely different the pipes coming out of these houses are not cast iron Mr Fugler had to come because ours collapsed right behind the house it was Orangeburg pipe when our system was put in it was done by Jeff lucer all the leech reels were failed because it was Orangeburg pipe that system is 75 years old I'm smelling it again that's a lie Dave we're we're just not B hasn't said something completely different he did what we're looking at is we're trying to determine that that for sure an order that we had wasn't followed that's that's for sure order bill but we are we are where we are and what bill is is proposing is that a hole be dug to determine where the the model is the model in the soil is and where the water table is that's what and Bill is saying from his standpoint and me not as a guy with a PE stamp still with a PE stamp but certainly me as an engineer saying if I'm trying to assess the level of of sensitivity or protection that we have from that se septic system that what bill is proposing about looking at where the pipe comes out of the house and it doesn't matter what it's made of it's still water is water and it's going to flow the way it's going to flow and uh we can with a hole with one hole out there and that property one hole in the in the backyard is going to give us the information that we need to know what we have for an issue if from Diane from your standpoint bill is is offering something that that's not a very expensive thing to do but from a Board of Health standpoint saying no you won't do that is going to we haven't voted on it but I I know what the board is going to take for a stand I know it and I I know that that if the board didn't do it we would end up receiving pressure at the minimum from from the D but but the board can't just just cannot just turn our heads and say we don't even want to care about whether this is causing a problem to the neighborhood and the environment we can't do that so from your standpoint you're at a a spot that that if you're not gonna say okay I'll I'll do that and if you don't if you don't do that the board's gonna have to and I know we when your answer comes back we'll we'll vote on what we're supposed to to do what we have to do but but and from David's standpoint we have to look and say I the board also knows that it's not what David wants to have done right now but that's also not David not on the board what the board's job right now is to assess whether there's a a problem a health problem that's affecting you and your neighborhood in the environment or whatever that's not and it needs to get done and and it's and we have to do what's necessary to have it done and hopefully we do it with you and we find out we all find out what's going on and we work it out together just like we managed to get that water out of your backyard and get it out and get it done but go ahead well just just okay so first let me thank you for doing that I've been trying to get that done um because I only up until this year had two options to pump my the water out of my cellar and one was to the backyard during the winter and the front yard in the summer or the warmer months so this is a a a miracle U that being said uh I have no intention of not dealing with this issue my uh the only thing that has has been in my way is that the reason that it all started and and I understand completely the reason the the the reason isn't important it happened I I have no um control over uh lies and accusations made against what want whatever Mr Shaheen was saying was that's the first time that I understood just exactly how my backyard is with the water table I mean I've lived and I'm sure the people who lived here before me I have lived with the uh the wa the low the high water table for years because I've had to pump it out of my basement I have never had the kind of flooding that is that my neighbors have remember when my kids were little and Mr Mrs deck it was their property um the kids would ice skate on it and the birds I mean the Ducks would be there in the um summertime um so I want this Tak care I'm willing to spend and do whatever the board feels is best I just wanted some more information as to what the conditions were and the documentation and I feel that I got that tonight stay whole and that I when you said that I didn't want to use a shovel I don't imagine you meant for me to go out into my backyard and dig a hole with a sh that's not going to tell you anything right is that are we clear on that yeah what what we really did Diane is that the bill and I doing a lot of the talking right right now looking at at two two Engineers talking about what's in the in the ground what what we were the board and Bill and I talked about is having somebody and it it's for right now it's going to have to be someone with a stamp that would be a a soil evaluator that now that would typically in our in our state that that typically would be a sanitarian or it would be uh an engineer that but but but from our standpoint would build just offer and Lee hasn't hasn't B into it yet but I knowing the way the three of us think and and and look at system designs what still is is said and I support is that the water is the is the main thing that's that has us concern and and so what we're looking for is somebody that with a stamp to a soil evaluator like a A sanitarian or or professional engineer that you would hire and that person would end up digging a hole he could it's not necessarily in this case I don't know if he can dig it with an auger or not but yeah dick I've got a 9 foot 9 foot hand auger bucket auger which I've dug holes in Sands like this before and it actually is not that bad again I don't know this exact situation but they're welcome to borrow my equipment if they'd like to use it okay so so what we're doing Sayan is saying that you have to hire a person with that licens being a soil evaluator and that person has to give us a report that says this is where they saw the the rust in the when we talked about the modeling that's the spot where the air the oxygen in the air hits the the water in the in the soil and makes rust and it that's called modeling so that person would say this is where I called where I saw that level and continue digging and saying this is where I saw the water bill suest at the same time that that person stick in a piece of hollow pipe with holes in it so that in the future that we can look and see if the water table is coming up and down with a a tape measure some can stick a hole up a tape measure in there without anybody doing anything with digging they just stick a hole stick a pipe taped down the hole so what we really looking for is a soil evaluator that tell us where they found the modeling and where they found the water table and as Bill pointed out that could be done without even more than likely without a machine there could be done that's right yeah you're not ripping the backyard up it's a very simple process and it would and you would need to do that somewhere near where the leech Fields would be you wouldn't you wouldn't do that next to your foundation you'd have to say I'm gonna do attempt to be not in the late field you don't want to wreck it that's what bill was talking about don't do that but somewhere out there where we think the Lee field is poke the hole and see what we have and from that we can decide whether the whether a a repair is an emergency repair or whether there's no repair but or something in between but but it has to be done we're at a spot that the the problem is a could be a real problem it's definitely from and I agree with Bill definitely by pumping that water from the your Cellar into the street the danger of having a flooded system in my mind is way reduced but but this has to be addressed and and not something that you'd say well I'm gonna get to it next summer it's something that we're in we're we're in a violation of of our order and it's a it's a potential of having a real problem exists and for what would be really great for you to tell the board right now is GE I've under I understand what you guys said now I I'm gonna do that I'm gonna do it right away I know a guy that that that I was gonna hire before I'm gon to go talk to him and I'm gonna ask him to get in touch with the board or do whatever I would suggest that you haven't get in touch with with Bill or me just to make sure that that whoever you hire does the thing we're looking for but you say I'm going to have him do it as fast as he can do it and we're going to get this done that's what that would be wonderful if you said that tonight well I would absolutely say that tonight what I what I would like to ask is um uh that is it necessary that everything that I say to you uh has is is is public I I'm I'm tremendously unhappy that I have to listen to anything that uh 14 Ken Lane would say I'm fortunately they I mean you can say Diane you it is Mr vomer and there's nothing I can do with it I'm just expressing my distaste in a public way what you can do business all over town apparently I think so I don't think so but but in the in the case of us in the open meeting law what it says is that we're because we're only a thre member board anytime two or more of a speech has to be at a at a public meeting however when you when you ask if everything you say has to be open to the public if you if you speak to only Ken yeah colen can can talk to one of us individually if you speak to if you speak to any one of us individual as long as as long as what you say doesn't need to come back to the board for the other people to to know then it doesn't then then it is not an open meeting L for instance if you want to call Bill up at his house tomorrow and talk to Bill about something and get bills forti on something or a stealing on something as long as Bill doesn't have to be speaking as the Board of Health and doesn't have to say hey guys we might to make a decision here then as long as that doesn't happen then you're free to talk the bill on a one-on-one basis and it doesn't have to go any place but as soon as you get into a spot that says hey Bill we found this for water what do you think or what is the board going to think then it has to come it is the open meeting L say it's got to come before before the town before everybody but that's fine I just I just thought if I had a question a specific question I wouldn't have uh to uh wait until uh the board met I could email Colleen or something which I don't think I'll have any questions because I believe the way that it was explained tonight and the option uh that bill talked about and I wrote some things down but they you know just are a lot of words right now um but I do understand the next step and that I will take the next step and then a report will come to you is that uh pretty much what we where we are we are and what what I suggest is that whoever you hire to do that the work that before they actually do the work that they contact one of the members of the board so that they what they do is what the Board needs now you don't have to come to the whole board to do that because we all three of us has heard what we're looking for and and Lee bill and I understand what we're what we're looking for so you can talk to to any of the three of us or he can talk to or she can talk to any of the three of us to make sure that that happens and that that uh we we get that done I before as long as you're saying you're going to do that and address it the board does have to take some some action here Bill and and Lee we're at a at a spot right now that we're still in in violation of that order my my suggestion is that that we we do something that take another order that supersedes the one that's in effect right now mine mine would be that we we have a a next meeting scheduled on the colen once our next meeting is uh February 11th okay February 11th my suggestion is that we we resend the order the current order and we we allow uh this pery to get that information to the board no later than our next meeting which would be February 11th what bill and Lee what do you what do you think about Dick I've got a conflict on the 11th conservation meets that same night and we wanna W to move it if if you would please if you would please you want Lee what do you think about you want to just move it one day sure you want to move it to the 12th that's fine absolutely so that we move just moved the meeting to the 12th now let's talk about what we're doing with this with this order and with a superseding one okay um I I don't take it the wrong way anybody on this on this meeting I'm concerned that we need a um a fairly rigid uh Point uh we need a we need a calendar here U there's a lot of there's a lot of environmental concerns a lot of neighborhood concerns which the board cannot address and make it go away uh but we can't I in my way of thinking we cannot leave this open-ended uh we need to we don't even know if there's a component in the ground anymore um but be that as it may I'm concerned that uh if we don't run scheduled um out of fairness to all parties concerned uh we need to move this thing forward rapidly regardless of the outcome I I support that however going back to what bill when I when I made the proposal that I just made I looked at had a couple a couple things the the number one issue was that that I well there's there's a couple different issue one's the human issue too that say you've got someone someone that's living in a spot and then saying by the time you actually would go about and and you take people to court or Housing Court whatever it is that and make Zan move the that it's just going to be a lot of work and time and won't accomplish very much anyways but but the spend a lot of money and effort but from an environmental standpoint I I assess first that it's essentially one person living there without very much uh waste going into the ground that's that's one issue but but by far the major issue that I looked at was the the impact or the suspected or anticipated impact of dropping that water table saying that the the problem especially especially when I hear Bill's data that says before there was any pumping system we're still talking about a 4 and a half foot water table that that taking the the two extra week to find out where we are is is a very low risk in my mind and especially with the the low usage rates and that that it gives us a time to see what's going on and and from your standpoint if we find out if if that two weeks and and and in fact if the the thing comes out that says the system is bro is flooded right now it's awful maybe the board has to have an emergency meeting but but short I don't think that's what's G to happen but but short of that that to go the two weeks and then from there make a decision that says this really has to if if it needs not going back to what Bill's name we don't know what we're finding but if you find out that it's something really terrible then we have to act really fast if we find out that it's not really terrible then we may end up doing the other part of what bill is saying it's let's look at it and see what it really is like but but at least at the end of two weeks we know what our next step should be and we should in that case I would absolutely support taking the appropriate action if depending on what the severity of the situation is then we have to take a action that's the appropriate time frame to deal with that level of severity that we find that's what I was thinking and Lee and Bill what are you thinking well can I can I play the dev Advocate um Can can a engineering firm be contacted um in the event that we need to do something in 14 or 15 days so that the spirit that we're all sharing tonight of moving forward protecting the environment protecting the neighborhood is in a forward Direction rather than you know 15 20 days later saying well boy now I got a problem and I got to hire somebody that's going to take another three weeks you know what I mean um and it's it's not my money I get it um but I want to be preemptive in being prepared to go go go well if that's the case let's talk about let's talk get Diane involved what if we said that that instead of just getting a soil evaluator who y the soil evaluators do not necessarily have the license to design septic systems so they're not necessarily stamped pees or sanitarians what if what if Diane agrees to hire a soil evaluator that's also a system designer and that would that would comply with the need to to more than likely she's going to end up with one of those guys anyway that's right we we had three of them on board tonight we had Bobby Sheen we had Mike petus who I'm sure could do it Al Weiss could do this Neil Jackson could do this any of these guys can do this oh if Diane agreed to hire an evaluator that was also a designer then it would it would get us into the spot that you're looking for Lee well yeah I mean this is not my my my call I'm just throwing it out to the board um and but that being said the reality of hiring one guy for one thing one guy for another thing um is a good idea if the first guy finds what we need and it goes away but if you hire somebody more qualified from the get-go it's actually going to be cheaper instead of hiring two guys and faster Diane were were you think are you still here Diane I am are you thinking of hiring are you thinking of hiring the same guy that you would to talked to before I am because I had told him that I was not canceling this I was postponing it so he knows that well Al Weiss is the perfect guy dick he's a hydrogeologist so he's the perfect guy to put a monitoring well in yeah so it sounds it sounds Lee and Diane that that the past that that Diane and and Bill it sounds like if Diane is in fact going to to hire Allan I know Allen's around he's back from his trip uh usually he pretty responsive uh it sounds like we could get what Bill's looking for what you're you're sugges Le about having a a sense of urgency to get this thing done uh sounds like those pieces all fit together yeah I agree I want I want that the environment the homeowner the neighborhood um all to survive this thing and come out on top in a short period of time and that go ahead Dian that would my that would be my wish as well and um my uh and maybe I need to just call somebody about this but if because of how this came about and it ends up that it is The best scenario for me and I guess I'll just put it that way um I hope that everyone agrees that uh not to pursue anything or look for something else that might not be there I hope I haven't um insulted anybody by saying that but I'm hoping because of how this came about that there isn't the issue that we've all talked about tonight and going forward and having the testing done I'm very I'm hoping that um that it turns out the best for me is that satisfactory that's certainly the case and and when we go further that that the when I was when I was talking about with the town to try to to get the the board was talking to the town to try to get the the water into that head space and we also looked at at there is money that the possibly that the loow interest loans if we end up going that way but but again as bill has pointed out you don't know that anything's going to happen so the find you need to find out the answer before you know if there's a problem before you look at at ways to to fix it if there's a need to fix it correct so so let's not cross that at this point and but but guys Bill and Lee we still have to we have not voted as a board are we saying that we're going to extend that order and allow Diane till the next to the the next meeting to get us that information on the on the groundwater yeah so so moved Lee can you go along with that and I can too can okay so that's what we're doing very good okay Diane thank you and Dave thank you and I know it turns out out that that in a case like this probably no one gets everything that they thought they were going to get but we're we're from a board standpoint we are going to make sure that that we leave this thing in a spot that it's not a danger to the neighbors and the environment that is going to get done if that's what we need to do but that's what it will be left on in a good safe condition so POS is it possible for me to get not necessarily your your meeting notes but but something in writing that I can understand as to where I mean I like I said I took lots of notes um just uh something that I can have in writing um for my own now I know what steps to take going forward and all do we want to we can give a a quick note that colen could write that would be great and say toan pery that on on January 1st I mean J January 28th 2025 the board met and discussed the potential septic system issue at 12 Pin Lane among others the board discussed failure to comply with the order to do a Title Five septic system test prior the reoccupancy of the dwelling and the relevant of the water table the potential soil contamination the new paragraphs as a result of that discussion the board voted one board voted to resend the non occupancy order issued on whatever March you'll have to look it up P March something 2024 uhuh two the board determined that determining the high water table defined by soil modeling an actual water table were key to determining the severity of the potential determining the likelihood of potential contamination of soil by the septic system at 12 10 Lan three the board felt that the continued pumping of the footing drain 1210 Lane Who the head faing in the street likely lowered the water table Nick I don't even know if you need to put that in that's that's we can cancel that yeah don't I wouldn't put that in I wouldn't three the board ordered with agreement from this pery that Miss pery would hire sanitarian a license sanitarian or PE who determin the level of soil modeling an actual water table in the area of her of the SAS at 12 kenlay dick and and and Provisions for continued monitoring of water table in real time okay okay then we'll we'll add uh because I don't want any more false phone calls okay so on this one okay we do that as part of that one number three it says the report from that soil professional will be issued to the grany Board of Health no later than February 12th 20 25 as part of that we'll say Provisions at the time of the soil yeah a groundwater observation well yeah provision will be made to allow ongoing measurement of actual of the act to a water table in the area of the testle after the data is received from the soil professional the board and Miss pery will establish a timetable to remediate any problems that might be discovered regarding the septic system guess that's it in regard that yeah I prefer to have the phrase monitoring well because again the water table the water table in the next two weeks might be at X and then if we get a lot of snow and snow melt the water table may go up in the next two months yeah what did how did we write it colen could you read back that so we put it so it's NE looking for provision will be made to allow ongoing measurement of the ACT ual water table in the area of the test Hall yeah I I would put parentheses monitoring well close parenthesis yeah put parenthesis yeah just the way builds in yeah that way Al y when Al sees it he'll say oh yeah they want you to put in a monitoring well and not dig a hole with a back hole yeah I agree with that yeah okay Lee are you okay with that absolutely dict is a couple other technical details which I'm sure Al can handle is that when they when they backfill the annulus of the monitoring well uh they have to put a a more or less impervious seal near the top to prevent surface water from just going right down there you see if water's going to go down there it's going to go through the surrounding soils and percolate in but it's not going to Short Circuit just going in through the annulus around monitoring have to that's why it's important for for Allan to to uh Alan knows how to do this he knows how to do this okay Diane are you all set now I'm all set sir okay Diane thank you David thank you da thank you glad to help you guys have a good night we're gonna get through this thank you all take care welcome night okay bye bye now let's let's go through the rest of our meeting I've got it's getting it's getting late so let's let's see if we can go through this um I've got the wrong pile stuff here okay the the first item I I have is colen has two time Fe got January 11th 2025 is 70 hours the normal 70 hours and then the same is through January 25th 2025 are we okay with both of those yes I'm good I answered next one uh payments to the treasurer from the Board of Health totaling $220 of that 13360 is Board of Health permit 500 60 Board of Health licenses $100 Board of Health fees and that comes to the total are we okay with that yes yes me to pen that's good okay the next one is I'm hoping that this stuff is is in order looks like it's all up okay it's this one is from the last meeting it's mad eat joh classic uh 7 107 Carver Street it's Mobile Food Service we said last time that he didn't have Bas of operations he does have a note from paramont pizza and that says he can work there it does not say that paramont pizza has a is in fact a licensed place the other is that he says that there are no toilets for workers then say he's going to use toilets for for the place that he or anything it just says no toilet he's on the meeting John oh can I talk yes how you doing how are you sorry my camera is messed up can you hear me yeah good this is a mobile food truck right so the the two questions I had is is termont Piza does it have a license to to do business it doesn't it could be another mobile food truck for all I just don't know no the address is right there it's a it's a established business do you guys Bill and Lee do you know that what's what's the name of the food truck John no no it's not that's what John has done for last week we said he didn't have a he didn't have a a fixed base of operation he got a letter that that came from the owner called mad it's a new truck this year yes that he's got permission to be basically using this whole operation and so the question is do it's in it's in Palmer does does this place exist and the guy doesn't say he has a license or and I just don't know I'm just asking the question Le and Bill do you hold I lost you there for a minute I'm completely lost on this nothing makes any sense I'm with you Lee I'm exactly with you on this one well number one can I say something all the food that's going to be served is going to be prepped on my truck I really don't even need a commentary so I got one in case there's a large event it says right on your application I clicked off the check mark that says food's going to be prepared on the truck I'm serving hamburgs hot dogs I have an oven I can serve meatballs I don't need a commentary but I guess your new law says you need a commentary so how does that make sense well it makes sense because are you are you working with us or telling us that we're John John here's the question you have refrigeration on this truck correct we got to get rid that P oh no she needs it I do yes yes it's a fully loaded yes 26 foot truck yes dick dick I recommend we have Lynn do an inspection of the truck that's all pretty simple yeah well fine yeah every we can every town that I've been to so far has has seen the truck uh there's no issues with the truck it's not a homemade truck it's a it's got everything right on it okay so sink have Lynn do the inspection that's all what you feel Lee to have Lynn do it and let her sure okay it if it's good okay yes thank you did did we resolve um what the base of operations is or not currently build the reason that we have that is that a Bas operation is is what if he's parked in his garage and the the place that he keeps this Hamburg is in a a cooler that sits there until he goes out every week that's the reason for doing this stuff okay and that that if what I'm just let does this place exist does permont defa exist I don't know that and this the note we got doesn't say it doesn't say see I'm a I'm a licensed guy and and Palmer it just says I'm Paramount Pizza and that's what my question is yeah no he's been there for 20 years yes there's actually three restaurants but the one up in Palmer is the one I I'll be running out of if I need it and what do we do with on on these food trucks but don't they usually go someplace that they they tell us that they have I know the ones that go out to the Wi house tells us they use The Wine House toilet this this guy is saying I don't need toilets why people don't use toilets well when you don't use toilets you go behind the the post that's right next to the where this is parked yeah it's only at fairs that we go and there's uh toilet there so so that's the thing that when you fill out the application that's what you're supposed to tell us that in this particular case you said you're going to go to the Charter day and absolutely they have toilet the charter day yes that's what I put on the application yeah so that's really only I'm sorry that's the only event that I'm gonna is Charter days yes Char can question John so the grandby charter is the only venue in in our town that you'll be uh working yes that's it Char day only that's it I'm already I'm going to belur town llo different towns different events Brimfield but I have to go to Every Board of Health but I don't have to usually go to a meeting I just walk in and fill out the application pay the fee and they just look at the truck I I guess dick typically if he shows up at Charter day Lynn would do the inspection at the beginning of Charter day typically right happens is that these things are set up now that that we don't do a one day thing we do a all the whole year so that they can if he move the wine house or if he moves that that you end up that that it's a one-year license okay well I guess the first step the first step is to have Lyn do an inspection and then we'll go we do that and that's the way we normally do it and yeah so that's the way we're doing it telling so it's it's approved subject to ly's inspection yeah yes okay all right guys thank you okay good night thank you next one is night is the food establishment renewal for Grandy American Legion another one for Linda spec is that is that how we approv this one we always yes ly have to inspect right Lee and Bill are you okay with that I'm I'm fine with that yeah yes thank you I am to okay there was a residential kitchen one did you get that one dick did I I get that one wickedly wild yeah I had it w i it came up with the right wickedly wild Gourmet Sauce that's the residential kitchen of renewal that on 96 fairy hill road is this another one we approve it with Lyn inspecting she inspects that one also yeah that's a renewal yeah Lee are you set with it yes thank you I am too so that's approved okay next one is uh in fact I'm going to give you a bunch of them they're renewals it is installers permits for Gary's construction Gary peny uh another installers permit for complete septic system the next one's a renewal gavone construction next one for renewal is do well construction Don H are we good with all of them yeah yeah I'm good with those guys I am too going okay next one is a renewal for a septic holler and Jason lafur a complete septic service and that's also a renewal are we okay with that yes yes I am too calling okay the next one is a 51 South Street compliance Neil Jackson it's set up oh it's right next door to it's CET right next door to Bill he's submitted an ad built with it that's got horizontal and vertical tie are we okay with that y I'm I'm recused on that one dick of course I'm okay with it Lee are you set with it yeah yes I am okay next one is a lot 5B chicke Street and that is 60 chapy Street oh that that one is is it's Bobby Stan he's got horizontal and vertical Ties on that one Le are we set with that one I think that's almost all the way out to 202 oh uh um Jason smigle yeah I think right yeah yeah yeah I was out there a couple of weeks ago y I'm okay with that bill are you yes okay the next one is renewal of grany motel for Motel life are we okay with that one I guess so yeah I am Bill are you yeah I'm good I'm curious did remember they had the fire a couple years ago dick yeah I guess they rebuilt the units I think they did okay so and those units are occupied now and Lind goes in there so I guess it's okay actually colen does this one do we give that subject to LY inspe yeah yes yeah okay the next one is 197 Street St TIY did it passes that one was 1500 gallon tank and more than four feet to water table are we okay with that one Le yes okay now the next one is complaints Taylor Street acoss from number 288 bags of trash that has anybody looked at that first I've heard of it no I've I've heard about it dick it it's down the street from Bob far's old house yeah and it's in one of the farm Fields it's in the one of the farm Fields it's red fire farm and I don't know if it's comp I don't know if it's comp HST or what it is but oh is this behind where the uh solar panel is behind where the barnfire was maybe it is up it's it's up on the high point of Taylor Street I wonder if it's were the same place across the street from yeah across the street from Ry McKenzie's last lot I think it's red fire Farms property it is that's where he used to have waste management putting his stuff and he wouldn't rotate the stuff and we had animals in there and yeah yeah that that's that's what they're complaining about I believe yes it sounds like the same yeah I'll take I'll take a look at that I'll go down there and take a look at that okay the next one Pizza Palace looking for a variance the a two compartment stin versus three compartment stin do do we have any idea whether this one is the the stuff that I read said that a long time ago they put in a high temperature dishwashing system to to make it so they didn't didn't need that and and there's a thought the the question I had is is is that in fact true is there does anybody know is there a slap sink in there and do we have everything except the the three compartment sink is that I don't know that yeah de Debbie Martini is here hi Debbie yes hi how are you oh very good thank you sorry I'm a little nervous I've never ever in the 30 years have been ever on Zoom so excuse me nervous we're all we're all pretty new to zoom anyway so join the crowd good the good news is Debbie you can be very sure that you didn't get the flu or you didn't get covid from being here that's it for sure that's the important thing that is absolutely the truth the truth right there so I'm Debbie martinz I'm George's wife um owner of Pizza Palace or kind of not the owners anymore um but I kind of just wanted to touch base with you on the situation with um the sink and the mop sink um since we reopened the store you know the history' been there for years rented it out uh took it back in 95 um I was with George and engaged to him when before they even got rid of the first time around so when we re-entered the store I think it was 95 5 um at that time because of the size The Limited space of the kitchen itself um in L of a three Bas sink we were allowed to do a two Bas sink with a high temperature sanitizing dishwasher which still stands there today in fact we replaced it once or twice already but it reaches well over the minimum requirement of 180 degrees so we still have the hcaa ke standards down uh it's a scrape wash sanitize uh it you know it has we have all that we use um the chemicals that are diluted with dipsticks so after 25 years we've been getting along quite great and every year with our health inspection that we have which seems to be always December or January uh we've been able to keep reestablishing with a health you know a certificate for food service um even though we've been constantly scored down for that um and coming to find out um Lynn who had come in uh a couple weeks ago she did go ahead and issue a food establishment license uh and gave it to the Future owner um which is taken over officially February 1st and we paid our due so let's put this with there's probably two health inspection two Health license is overlapping between our family you know George and the new owner but I guess I just don't want there to be problems for the new owner in the future and Lynn said um well there's probably a variance and I'm like well after 25 years trying to remember you know with a few Health Inspectors that we had um I recall there was a variance because it was found that uh a potential to be a health hazard with the sit you know the what we had going on in the restaurant as far as a tubet with a high temperature standing it was found I guess by the regulatory Authority if I recall um at that time that it was not a risk uh a worry of a risk with how we did the dishes obviously so because of say it was equivalent yeah yeah you know what I'm talking about the three the steps system so so how about how about the slap thing Debbie do do you have where are you putting the stuff that you wash the floor with okay the mop say that that situation near I told ly and she's where it does should be fine but what we've been doing is because we're not using a hazardous chemicals in the mop water we are using diluted bleach which is basically the same what you're using to sanitize dishes Etc is what we use in the mop we take a five gallon bucket fill it up it is poured into the mop bucket diluted with the Bleach that we have when we test it ppms once we're done and prior to doing obviously we sweeping everything so we're not getting a lot of stuff going into the mop bucket it is then brought into the bathroom there is plastic that is put around the facility there it is poured into the toilet not touching the toilet because we put a barrier um and it is rinsed again with a bucket of water in there so but that was the key there is to find out can we put it down the sink and after years back of doing investigating and knowing that the sewer water is going down a sanitary sewer system and it's not harsh chemicals it's highly diluted and there are not I guess I want to say big items or anything of that just if anything minute to hardly any crumbs going down because the surface space of our kitchen is quite small and supposedly commercial bathrooms I guess the pipes are supposed to be larger than residential anyhow 25 years we've been doing the same system and I feel as though we've been doing a quite a good job keeping the restaurant sanitary from every aspect so I'm just hoping that we can continue after 25 years with um the new owner that we can continue serving the public safely as we have have been I mean I'm thinking 25 years history speaks for itself and I'm hoping I guess I wanted to say I think Ken mentioned grandfathered in and that's what I thought we would have been and I'm assuming because we keep getting renewed renewed renewed so we must be doing something right it's just not the best situation but that's all that works for us because we don't have the space on the floor in fact Plumbing wise we probably don't even have space because if you recall D we had to put a wonderfully huge UV sanitation system and it costs thousands of dollars with welding new pipes in the in the basement um just to ensure that the well water was safe which I have no problem with because obviously I would want to make sure I'm drinking Safe Water aside from the public so spacewise for record it wasn't it wasn't the D that caused you your problem it was your that caused you the problem yeah no I'm not blaming D yeah I'm not blaming the DP I'm was saying we had to put one in for the D which we did we have obviously complied so but just saying that just the room is not there so Richard that's all I got for you I hey Colleen my thought is we ought to get we ought to get Lynn involved with this but just ask me where I would be thinking I would be thinking gee that somebody that had two compartment thinkink and a good dishwasher would be in great shape compared to someone that had the street compartment s and no dishwasher however yeah again Wasing floor and throw throwing a floor water into the toilet that to me is a big problem how come but but I think we ought to talk to Lynn about it because maybe Lynn would say that's the problem at all you don't understand I you know the the three the three compartment sink was obviously designed for restaurants without dishwashers because that's the way you wash the dishes so again you've got the two compartment sink you got the high temp dishwasher that resolves that issue completely but like dick says I remember of course I'm dating myself too but I I did inspections when Harry was there Debbie my father-in-law yeah 30 years ago I I did personally I did some inspections of your facility back in the mid90s okay and I I I do recall that you did not have a slop syn then either so it's it's been yeah it's been an ongoing issue yeah just the problem is Bill is just that there is no space for it it's so limited I realize it I know I know and we've been trying to we've done our best to keep the bath through the sanitary part of it and after you know doing a little research back when and then telling Lynn and um knowing that the water that we are dumping down is the I guess the big key is Harsh chemicals and that's the thing that we are not using we are using what we would use it's what you're doing on the floor and but really the harsh chemicals aren't the problem at your site because you're on the you're on the city sore that goes to the treatment plant so it's really non it's a non-issue if you're in a septic system it'd be an issue but you're going to the treatment plan so that's perfect there another way to to look at it and say you know the normal people that were in a place for 50 years that put the money into their building and expand it and fix their toilets and do all the things and you'd haven't done that and so now we're coming at a new owner and saying you know these people didn't take care of the thing the way they supposed they were supposed to do and now it's with the new new people that we don't want it to keep going the same as it always was well you know the problem is too is Richard that if you keep getting renewed and I'm getting Health Inspectors that keep saying to me it's fine it's fine you probably have a variance and then finally Lyn after 25 years is probably saying well you probably have a variance and have to speaking with Colleen and she couldn't find it and thinking we're grandfathered in I'm not overly haven't been overly worried about that because it's been that many many years and I'm still I'm just getting a I'm getting marked down on my health inspection but I rather take that and spend 10 152,000 to expand on something I don't have have room to do I can't imagine how that would even work I just can't well that's because you're you're not the engineer to do it but let's even put it further that I'm I can't remember not having that building there so I'm I'm guessing it's been there for probably more than 50 years oh yeah so let's say we went out to let's go out to a hundred years and you still haven't done anything and we say you don't understand that darn Board of Health way back a hundred years ago they said it was okay and why are they complaining now and you say well you know it's it's gone the know your your roof goes bad and stuff when you go a long long time and now we got to change a chance to say we got a new owner and why don't we fix some of the things that should have been fixed and so that's where we go but why don't we Bill and Lee what do you think we should do you think it's worth just talking to Lyn and see what what her experience is about this stuff oh Rich can I just say one thing I know you're asking question sorry to cut KN whether or not it's state cold the one thing I well I did look all this up on the Massachusetts thing here and I did notice too that's not a new build or renovations if there was a a Renovations going on that I can understand um but there is it he's keeping the the mapping of the kitchen the same I just wanted to put that out there too is it is it I mean we may be painted into a corner the state says it has to be then then the state is calling the shot yeah well I thought that the I did read that um in fact I have a little excert here a regulatory Authority May Grant a variance by waving the requirement of this code if in their opinion the regulatory Authority feels a health ha Hazard will not result from this variance we should talk yeah I'm not gonna vote on it tonight so I don't know Lee and Bill you may want to discuss it and vote on it but I think I'm the wrong guy that that Lynn ought to be the person that says you know this is the one that'll say you know let's let's pass on the sink on the two things but the flap slap think makes sense that that that's a really dirty thing we should deal with it or or she says no you know the whole city hoio deals with this thing this is how they do it and so I'm coming out of a spot of ignorance and and I I need some assistance yeah yeah what it build what you and Lee could vote you know two to one on this if you want so so de you're looking you're looking at 105 CMR 590 correct um I don't even recall I don't even think I put it under here yeah that's a state sanitary code chapter 10 minimum sanitation standards for food establishments so this is your guiding document 105 CMR 590 I'm looking at it right now okay I think I saw something it was 8 10311 but let me tell you after 25 years I can't remember what I looked I well they they may modify it we should also remember though that haris has you know P Palace as I recall doesn't have a file that's empty I think we've got some some things in that file that that people have said Gee that's not I'm concerned going in there that it doesn't seem very safe to me and clean to me so so this is not that's the first time haven't hearing something like that well then I may be I may be really wrong I'll I'll and I'll say I'm sorry if I am but the problem is that that I also may be looking back long before your time prob the bad thing probably but uh that I certainly could be doing that yeah also Lynn did go ahead and issue a food license uh to the new owner I don't know if I mentioned that I just wanted to let you know because officially February he had any intent to shut you down no no no no yeah no no no no I I I know Richard I was just making sure I just let you know what's going on and um February 1 he's uh officially taken ownership of the P still keep still going to be Pizza Palace and uh it feels kind of weird saying that you know after all these years you know but being there every day it's got a little bit yeah I can remember terrible I can remember when Harry was in Hoy so really really really I told you I've been around a long time I didn't go that far back holy crap really a long time ago a long time ago oh my gosh so that's why when I say I'm thinking back and it could be before your time it really could be before your time oh my gosh who never thought geez that's something else huh bet you got some stories there bet I read some stories want he Harry is certainly it's interesting Harry's Harry's language is always good enough when he's around his customer to be able to do business when he's around the Board of Health Harry has really bad trouble with English language I don't know if you ever noticed that oh he gets really worked up and worried yeah I remember so you remember that too oh my gosh yes are you kidding me I was around like 92 88 88 before they got rid of the store that one time um I was there and then yeah man time flies I can't believe how many years have gone by unreal so it sounds like what we're gonna do let's talk to Lynn about it and figure out what's the right thing to do we'll we'll figure out yeah all right Rich I just got a little nervous you know I wasn't sure what to do like no worries all right all right I just don't want the new owner I mean he's such a nice young man I just don't want him to have any problems and because I remember I was his age when we tried out he's just starting a family and stuff so I just want things to go smooth for him you know I was in my 20s too when I married George you know I was a kid yeah we do too thank you okay okay all right so we'll just we we'll just sit back and let you guys take over then okay yeah okay all right okay good night all right good night everyone thank you okay nice to meet you bye now you too bye bye thank you you're welcome bye bye are we okay with with having May 17th for the Hazardous was day with South adley sure pen you should tell us that are we okay with that uh yes it should be okay you know you know dick a quick aside I just went to that mass regulation and they refer to the US public service FDA Food Code 2013 so the document that controls all these food establishments is actually a federal a federal document and it's it's got 7868 pages to it that's probably one of the things that that the president just suspended yeah yeah he probably yeah he probably rescinded this oh God does that document also I haven't read it of course but I wonder if that touches on the uh explosion in uh food trucks but this just this called This is food establishments here it is here they got the whole thing about washing sinks yeah the whole thing yeah this is it used to be self-contained in the mass code but now Massachusetts has youur sent this over to the federal document so I'm guessing it's a little more in depth in the old the old document wow look at this yeah wow we still have a couple more things to do let's see if we can get them done it's already 20 to 10 yeah so hazardous way day we said we're okay with right yes did it okay now we did shall we okay the next one is distrib ution of Board of Health member communication I got pent attorney hold us that I think Colleen sent out my note but he said that we're in violation in his view we're in violation when we even pass along a copy to each other of something that we sent out that pen can send stuff out pen can can send pen can tell us what she talks to people about other than Board of Health members so Colleen can't even talk to Bill and tell me that Bill said this how can we run this board how can we run a board this way but his feeling was that that if we send out a letter he specifically kind of stuff like if I talk to Tyler Avery and then send out a note to Colleen and copy you guys and said this is what I said to Tyler Taylor or or Avery or their attorney that I can't tell you that that the only thing we can do is we can send the things to Colleen and colen can send it out to us the day of or the day before the meeting and then say we're going to discuss this at the meeting he can say that something was going to be discussed at a meeting we can each say to Colleen that we'd like something to be put on an agenda but Colleen can't even tell anybody who put it on the agenda so I don't know how we're gonna how we're going to deal with how can we run a board that way this this ties our hands dick it's a catch 22 it ties our hands it really does well yeah because we're walking everything blind the meeting that's right length is gonna become exp exponentially larger than it is well it even gets get into more of a problem what what if it's really important and we need to have an emergency meeting according to the then that itself could make a violation because we chose to have an emergency meeting but but I don't I think he'd fight that but colen can do you think you can dig out the open meeting law make a copy of it for us yeah and let us really look at it because I think the open meeting law doesn't say what what he thinks I think the open meeting law says we can't discuss things in a way that would even remotely say we discussed it and it's going to tailor our decisions at a meeting but that you're free to convey information as long that was always my interpretation of the law as long as a decision isn't made or a reasonable person would believe that a decision isn't being made long as it's conveying factual information and not opinions and that's important factual opinion information not opinions but again if we're having our hands tied like this I don't know how we can operate for instance let's say that that Len did an inspection and she said whatat do I do she calls you Bill and saysi went to Pizza Palace and I told him that they can't have that s or I have they have to have the syn right and you say you know Lynn you're right they need to have the syn and then you send out a note that that says or sends out a not made a doability said that we're going to need that sink and it goes out and it just the rest of us hear it well I I guess what could happen is if we didn't agree we could then go to Colleen and say you know Colleen I don't agree with this let's have a meeting because we need to discuss that so it I haven't let's say I didn't agree with you Bill as long as I don't call you if I call alen and say you know Colleen I don't agree with this let's get together and meet or let's put it on the next agenda okay the other way we could do this is factual I'm looking at it right now it's in the code 52313 service sync I'll read the take me a minute to read it at least one service sync or curbed cleaning facility equipped with a floor drain shall be provided and conveniently located for the cleaning of mops or similar wet floor cleaning tools and for the disposal of mop water and similar liquid we waste B toilets and urinals may not be used as a surface sink for the disposal of mop water and similar liquid waste tells you that right yeah that's factual it's right in the code yeah so but but if Colleen can get that that back to us because we're get in a spot that the the board that each one of us fact it's going to make it worse because if you can't tell anybody what's going on it's going to force you to make a decision on your own that a decision needs to be made and if it turns out that it's one that that it needs to whole board then it may not last for two weeks maybe something that's important enough that someone says whoa that's that's committed the board to something we shouldn't be committed to we should have a meeting but if you don't get a chance to know that it happened you can't you can't pull the trigger to stop it yeah that doesn't make sense to me so Colleen if you could get that so we could at least read it and then bill as as you said if if we've got to go to somebody and say come on let's let's talk about this thing yeah I would talk to Jake olivea talk to the state senator see if they can introduce some sort of Bill in Boston to give us a break for crying out loud yeah that it's not an attempt to violate the open meeting law it's an attempt to be able to run the run the community could actually it could put us into a spot that we're forced to hire a health agent right that's right I War if or or go to a five person board the goal and can we also find out what do we need to do to go into executive session yeah there's a if Colleen can dig that out because I used to have it in front of me there are only like five things that you can do they're very very specific very specific yeah and we almost never do it I think the I think one of the times we had an employee that we were GNA discipline and that ended up in a I don't know if you remember that you do remember it because it involved you I you that employee says you know don't be saying that to me I got more stuff on you than you then you can deal with I don't know if you guys remember that but I remember it it's the and that we can't talk about since it was executive s we can't talk about who it was but but was that in the was that in the late 19 was that in the late 90s I don't know but it was when you were here Bill and it was a thing about signing it started off the first round was starting off about signings on trips that were signing Lee's name on on and then yeah and then oh so someone signed Lee's name yeah oh and and then it was on there was some question about whether it was actually signed up some trips that weren't made and then there were there were some but it it went and we actually resolve stuff and the a reduction and whatever and then finally uh it finally came into a head and a lawyer came in and said this is what what happened that it was to you that it was was dead saying don't you don't you dare complain about me because I've got more stuff on you then than you want to hear about and say whoa I so that's a that sounds like a threat when the when the lawyer heard that the lawyer said well it's time to go home that's right just lost that one so anyway one more thing that I've got and it it's on the Dollar General Basin repair I finally got the I guess we all got it and uh I did send on Note oh maybe you didn't I couldn't copy you in on my Note what happened is Tyler sent the thing to all of us saying the repairs that were being made at the Dollar General were at my request and I sent back a thing I was saying to Tyler said it's not my request it's what you were suggesting yet I don't know what you're suggesting you gave some very general suggestions and even now I don't know what you did and so we sent back a thing to all of us saying what they actually did is they took the the that land drain that went at the the side of the the whatever the the for Bay that non-leaching area and if you look at the dimensions the outfall of the that Basin is two feet higher than the bottom of the Basin so that basin's never ever going to drain the the the people that designed it had sent a letter to us saying that Basin was never a leeching basin that was only for silt control so that has a b a lower section that's two feet lower than the aall and what they did is they hook the 4 in land drain that went into the side of that Basin and they ran it into the height that is the outfall from the floor Bay into the leeching Basin so it's never all it's done if the if water level is high in the the second Basin it just comes back into the first one anyways and it never it's below the Overflow that goes into into the street catch bases so there's not much that's happened there and that that apparently they were going to look at installing an 8 inch overflow from the sea reaching Basin into the the pet Basin and the state said no we're gonna have to get permission to do that so so all that it's been done here is that 4in land drain has been moved out of the the for Bay and put into the leaching Bay so so there's not much that's happened so now the question is do we I guess my feeling would be until we really get an understanding of what's happening and when it's happening we ought to stay with the the timetable that we have for their permit yeah the objective is to have that upper Basin drain in 72 hours like it's supposed to so we'll see if it drains in 72 hours to mitigate mosquito formation if the bottom of the two feet below the if it doesn't reach in the bottom of it's two feet higher than the it's never never gonna drain that's right evaporate possibly but it it certainly seems like like we ought to be involved with what's going on a lot more than we're being involved so so Bill you you didn't give the okay to do that the changes what you weren't all you weren't the guy that's the point guy for the board of course not and Lee you weren't no I mean I drove by and saw some equipment there on my way yeah that's the same thing I did I went there one day and there's a back ho there and no one around guy must have went to lunch or something yeah yeah and I was the same thing so so it looks like I me no one knew what's going on but but please be aware it's not me either so no it's not us none of us okay um so they must have pulled a permit to operate and I'm guessing the permit would include uh the scope of work but I really don't know building inspector or I don't know how that whole thing works well it's not they didn't do any all they did was a little drainage work they didn't they didn't do any building work they didn't do any septic system work yep they so there's Noone that stuff no I mean but you know those clearly Cattails growing in there and I mean I don't want to go down that path but um they it seems like they're doing what they want how they want when they want it's the state might require them to hire a PE to put a plan together it's possible it's possible it's possible but they're certainly not they don't have us originally I told I don't say originally let's say in the in the last six months I told Tyler that if he if he got us involved we could we could really try to grease the kids to try to be able to get stuff done but he has to get us involved and and they you know I put out those plans to put the those basins underneath the the the ground and and that one I said you know gonna those they're going to be filled with water all the time they're not going to help anything they're just going to be buried in the ground filled with water that doesn't accomplish anything and and it just seems like they're reluctant to get us involved but but anyway so so at this point my what Le I guess my I guess my my concern at a distance is that it took a long time to get them to anything and if we don't get in the loop then whatever they do may be um inadequate and it could be five years before we can even try to get them back to do anything if they don't make it right at this point in time and and so changing the the permit schedule doesn't seem like a smart thing to me it seems like they're they're worried about that and we should keep them worried about it and and the lawyer told me he says Ah we'll let we'll do anything you guys want except once it's done we want to make sure that it's over with but if if they're just doing this it's just they're doing work for the sake of doing work instead of fixing a problem yeah they're moving stuff from left to right right to left but there's no real change no no Okay so we've got that colen for the the next meeting I'm I'm so that I'll do it for Wednesday instead of Tuesday as as things go the way they're scheduled to go I'm getting my knee done the Thursday before that so that's a week from The Day After Tomorrow the only thing we ought to let people know that I'm certainly not going to be doing septic design reviews over the that weekend before the meeting so if they've got anything coming up that it really has to be in by by this Friday but I I don't know how we tell anybody I guess that's the only people we know we've got Alan Weiss has got one Allan has two I think two and I don't know I don't know of anybody else I yeah I I don't either um unless I tell some of the other Engineers that usually have stuff that I guess it would be what only Neil maybe huh maybe Neil Neil might have something over on The Bachelor Street he did some work to help out Bob sheen on a uh Title Five which has gone into a design but I'm not sure what the time frame is I I'll let them know so they'd have to have it in this Friday okay yeah and they may not be concerned about it being you know being the end of uh January that they're gonna even get the work done until March or April yeah so hopefully hopefully this gets done this time yep agreed okay then then I'll get now we're going to do quarter or seven against next next Wednesday and we're going to do just that one document that's what we're going to focus on yeah number number seven yeah so let's really let's work on that one okay this is a three hour 15 minute meeting dick what we've met for three hours and 15 minutes been fun huh yeah wait until they really arm arm Russell us with the uh regulations on the open meeting laws this will be a short meeting Bill oh yeah well we had we actually got the thing done at maybe 10 Lane that was good it worked out good that worked out good thank you it worked out fine you know the nice thing about Ken are we recording still yeah that would you know well it's time to shut off the recording I'm going to and let's let's end the meeting let me see if I actually I can't even see this thing oh here I can you sure St