##VIDEO ID:EHQcunw_aYg## [Music] now okay we are now recording and uh let's go through our quickie U items that we don't have any septic system reviews for tonight uh Lynn isn't going to be here so let's see if we can get get through first items for meet um meeting minutes of August 13 bill you weren't here uh I'm guessing you're gonna abstain for that Lee how are you with those minutes I'm fine thank you yep and how about Bill are you gonna St or well I have to dick I apologize I've had a number of occurrences where conservation meetings overlap bo8 so uh unfortunately I was a unable to attend last week of course I'm abstaining okay and colen I'm I I'm good with that too so they're they're accepted with ph abstaining okay uh we can go colen's time sheet uh is for the for the August 24th time period 70 hours the normal 70 hours for the two weeks are we okay with that bill and Lee yes I don't hear anything yeah would you say dick 70 hours for coling 70 hours yeah yeah that's fine that's are you okay yes I am okay Colleen I am too so that's approved okay the next one that I have is the payables to the treasurer from the Board of Health it totals $1,120 for this period and that's from $920 from board of health permits um $200 from Board of Health fees and that's it that total the $1,120 are we okay with that yes no yeah yeah that's good dick thank you okay colen I'm okay with that too so that's that's approved okay um I'll leave see the two things that we've got are we have an appointment I think from we have an installers permit from Peter Wilson and also on this list is a certificate of compliance for seven L drive that's a that is just for a septic tank and a distribution box is that all setly yes it is all good okay I'm okay with that bill are you yeah that's good very good I am pen three of us approved that okay so that's approved okay um we're let's see our appointment with Peter Wilson is until 735 so we'll just hang on to that um we've got as I said Lynn isn't going to be here we've got the 12 Jackel and circle at 7:15 so that's not quite time yet what we can talk about before we really start it looks like the the bill as you've been saying these alternate dwelling units are upon us and and the we it looks like no town can prevent them from being built uh they're up to 900 square feet or half the square footage of the original dwelling unit whichever is smaller there are some other rules that can be put on there such as a single parking space the things zoning kind dick did you did you read The Gazette yesterday I read that one I did not see that yeah yeah there's an article Michael pill who's an attorney that we work with from North Hampton he he gave a presentation at the Amor planning board or I think it was last Friday and he went over the whole nuances of the Adu uh law and of course if you read the article toward the tail end of the article they mentioned specifically that certain problems still exist with respect to unored areas so that they do recognize the ad law would clearly benefit sword sword uh communities but again we're still subject to Title Five and they did mention in the article the 10,000 square foot per bedroom Criterion yeah so that essentially prevents people with a 40,000 square foot lot with a four-bedroom house from adding another Adu unless they go and unless they go with an advanced treatment system right you could go you could go with a nitrogen reduction system and bring it up to 660 so there's ways to do it but it'd be rather expensive right but I urge anyone interested in that to read the uh Monday's Gazette we have we have two of them that are upon us right now and and from my standpoint that the the three things that that's I'm I'm unclear with that the the three of us should be talking about that one of them is whether we should be requiring if this thing happens that as long as there are shared utilities such as shared water or and or shared seage that it's customary for us to say that there'd have to be a deed restriction preventing the separation the ownership separation of those those dwelling units the two dwelling units that that's one thing we should be talking about the other is what do we do about a common water supply and what do we do about a common septic system we've got Bill you've just said the obvious issue that that's not it really isn't up to us is just that is the 10,000 square feet for for bedrooms however if if you look do we for the longest time we used the this board used to have a a regulation that said a a dwelling unit a separate dwelling unit needed a separate septic tank so that's that's one thing is there is there a limit that we want to put for instance that if there are more than uh 440 gallons design gallons it's Ramy design gallons so three bedrooms and a in a kitchen if there are more than that total do we say the dwelling unit needs its own septic and the other is do we say that that they can in fact share the the water supply do we say things like you can't share the water supply if you have a shallow we there are there are things that that that are definitely are going to be on us and Neil is is sitting there on my screen he's up in my upper leftand corner but I know Neil has got a system proposed for bachelor Street and and Ne would like to know what we're gonna do so what Lee and Bill what are your thoughts and just just so you know they they're it's a it's a detach unit and a little under 400 square feet presently it's you know it's not a finished unit yet but um and I don't think they have plans on a kitchen but I designed it for a kitchen so if they do add a k a small kitchen well well here's the question Neil how big is the the lot the parcel uh well it's one acre so they have a three-bedroom house they're and again they have a detached garage with a potentially living space one bedroom with a a small kitchen um so they would have four bedrooms two kitchens potentially so that would give them a 660 that's what I designed for and the the unit is a little under 400 square feet yeah but but by the state it would be so the existing house is three bedroom y okay so three bedroom plus one bedroom in the new new Adu yep so so by the state it'd be 440 and you got a one acre lot so you meet the Criterion but that's the state that's the state Criterion so we got to talk about the grandby Criterion now well in our when we go through that bill our policy has been that that we actually use that criteria for leak field sizing but we don't use that that extra 110 gallons for act loading for ground loading right so four bedroom house a four bedroom house has to have the leaking area for a 550 for five bedrooms but the loading that we calculate for the nitrogen is only for the four okay so so we're establishing we're using nitrogen loading by the state uh State flow flow numbers correct right that's we've been doing okay that makes sense so you design the system for 550 or 660 whatever you you decide but again from a nitrogen loading perspective four bedrooms on a 40,000 square foot lot works right and and so they do meet the the state requirements because I have designed for two kitchens and four bedrooms I thought and kick it around Lee and Phil I thought the easy way in my own mind whether it's the good way or the wrong way is that we've got so much experience with the the three bedrooms on on a septic tank that we ought to be saying if if it's going to be bigger than three bedrooms in the kitchen you know one kitchen or or say if it's going to be bigger than 440 gallons Grandy gallons then it needs a the Adu needs its own septic thing well I think that goes yeah I think that's a very reasonable call from any perspective the any Adu should have its own septic tank okay so I agree there a plan and that's what you did at miles over on on Philip Circle NE he's got his own septic tank so that's been established yeah that's fine so that we've got Lee what is your thought on it no no I'm I'm I'm here in the whole thing and I agree 100% uh with the direction we're going in on this thing I so the three of us agree to that that I'm also looking that if we're if we're not careful and we say that it needs they need their own well and their own septic their own SAS then we in a fact shut them down we stop that on a one acre lot no one's going to be able to to do it or a half acre lot no one's going to do it my feeling is that you you say they can use a common well and they can use a common SAS what Lee and Bill what are you thinking are we going to require um are we GNA require water testing with the common well since they're renting from the property owner as long as you're going down that direction can we say that let's go after a problem that we know we have and say it can't be a shallow well besides that that you fix that shallow well problem at the same time and I would I would agree on that for sure yeah a bachelor streets is a artisian well so okay pH like not hearing from you well I'm well I'm thinking I got a couple comments here and you and you mentioned something earlier this Adu this will be part of the parent parcel not subject to subdivide subdivision at any point in time correct well that's one of I my feeling is what as we talked through it that we should say that that is as long as I'm not sure how you that you can just say it can't be subdivided let's say they had City water and and and store clown store I'm not sure that that the Board of Health would be able to say well we don't we're not going to let you subdivide anyways and and without that being a zoning issue not a board of health issue well again that's the whole point of the a law is it circumvents the zoning now the other thing the Adu law states is there's no requirement that the Adu be occupied by a family member so you could actually rent it out to anybody anyone could occupy the Adu right and that goes back to what Lee was just talking about in and that's what they're doing in ammer the big thing in ammer is listen if you got a property in ammer you put up an Adu couple of bedrooms you can get $2,000 per bedroom per month from a college student you can make pretty good money doing that and that's what people are going to be doing so it looks like what we're we're saying though is that you you do say that if there's if there's common a common well or a common part of the septic system it can't be subdivided we've got now it's so we got now that it's going to have a separate septic tank it's got to comply with all of the the the uh loading the state loading for nitrogen and it can has to have a deep well a Bedrock well and now we get to the point of providing water to a renter which is what lead what started this little discussion we're in right now that what's a reasonable water test you think a reasonable one is before the thing is occupied and then every year you have to redo it have to redo what water test so you're saying an annual water test for these that that's not unreasonable you're renting you're renting something to someone and you're providing a utility okay how about if it's not a rental How about if it's your mother or mother-in-law so the point is if it's a for-profit operation they'd be obliged to have periodic water testing and from a liab and from a liability point of view that makes a lot of sense yeah Lee what is your thought I could support that that says if it's if there is rent involved then it has to have a yearly water test yes that makes sense yeah if it's your whatever if it's your you know like you said your mother-in-law [Music] your daughter friend whatever then it's a family uh but anybody who is paying for staying in that facility on your property um then yeah I think the water test every year is is a reasonable um approach to this problem yeah yeah dick if you as otou Brian otou will tell tell you yes that's it's a good idea so as long as we're talking about that we've got several rental places in pound should we be just saying that all rental units have to have a yearly water test provided to their the renters why not well hold on let's let's take a look dick dick why don't you recite the public water supply Criterion the common so if an owner is supplying water who a renter then once a year the water has to be tested what what do we want to call it a tit5 water test but but the point is Dick this is more severe than the 60 days with 25 people average per day the restaurant th this is a little different than the restaurant requirement for water testing yeah the water but theirs is is more often right yeah they're they're I think they're quarterly yes they're quarterly so we're not as severe as that which is which is probably a good thing that's right that's quarterly but it just would mean that we've got several fourplexes that that I don't think anybody tests anything well that's right that's right the fourplexes fall under that 25 person Criterion We believe We believe right so they're not public water supply so they could be supplying water that's totally unsafe to drink no would know good point not that I like not that I like imposing a bunch of regulations but this is probably a good health and safety one we might want to consider especially since we're we're what's prompting us is this Adu and then so now we're at a point that Neil who's sitting there saying what are you guys going to do here now Neil actually has something to work on yeah so Neil you got your marching order yeah so I basically have to add a tank right to this plan you're going to have to add a tank and they're going to have to do the the deed restriction work that says that as long as the the water or the septic system or any part of the septic system is shared the property the the units the dwelling units can't be subdivided we have to be careful because we can't say the property can't be subdivided let's say they put it on it's on a 5 acre property then the property could be divided but the the dwelling units can't be divided right well this is a one acre lot so they couldn't subdivide it anyway well they could they you don't know what's going to happen in the future but they in our town or the state could do St that says oh yeah that can be or let's say that it's not it's this one let's say it that was on a 2 acre lock or a one and 3/4 whatever it is then someone says yeah I really want to split this in half so if we just say regardless of what the size of your lot is that's just the rule you're going to lock it up so you can't split it away so so that's what you have to do so um this regulation um limits the size of the dwelling that can be put on the property correct it does it it says that it can be it but it doesn't have to be the way they have it written down it can be a modified garage it can be part of the original dwelling unit that they changed it can be a new dwelling unit it can it basically says this thing is fair game to do anything you want and but it is it is limited it is limited to not more than 900 square feet or 50% of the size of the original dwelling unit whichever is less okay and and we are Let's Make Pretend it may not happen Let's Make Pretend There's rental property in town anyway on 12 Bachelor Street just for the heck of it and the people renting that house now put in a 900 square dwelling unit which also becomes a rental property and then the person in the 900 square foot unit decides that he is going to squeeze in a spare bedroom to whomever and rents that out within his rental you know what I mean Oh you mean like a like an illegal sublet in New York City exactly y same same concept just tell them to impose rent control no not really Hey listen there's one other thing dick and Neil you're gonna have to think about the water distribution system you got to be very careful the way you do that you cannot simply do a y at the pitless adapter you have to you have to tap the line after the pressure tank otherwise you're going to have a problem so be careful the way you design the water distribution right okay you see what I'm saying dick yeah think about that it's not that simple yeah we have't as it turns out we haven't said any place that the water system has to be designed to support the intended youth we haven't said that and I I would say the water distribution you know realistically if if I were Neil I'd have his plumber take a look at the design for the way you're going to split the water off on this house because it's going to be somewhat tricky you got to be careful the way you do that I think they already have it split so it's going to the garage presently okay but anyway it's going to be rather expensive because if the Adu is 150 feet from the from the well or the existing house you're going to have a line Frost protected line four or five feet in the ground and uh that's a pretty good undertaking well but but if you look at these people and where the governor thinks that this is going to be a whole bunch of free housing cheap housing I'm going to guess that if I built one of them I certainly am not going to rent my have my house and say you know I'm going to build this little Adu and I'm going to rent it out for $250 a month I don't think that's going to happen I'm on my l no you got you got a couple thousand yeah this thing is geared toward eastern Mass with the average home price exceeds a million dollars and property is very very valuable right so okay so we did get through that where it's now 728 which means we're definitely into the time where we've pass the 12 Jack Circle time and Allan Weiss isn't coming tonight so let's let's go no Al's Al's here dick oh we is hello Al I see okay thought I saw his name there somewhere um but your 7:15 is here so let's do the 75 and uh so that that one is 12 jackeline circle and the inspection that that was made and colen when you put this on on the agenda what are we supposed to to be determining at this point we had we had someone from Northampton do the inspection and they they wrote the orders is that correct collie yes that's right um in fact JJ prac is here and um yeah I think you at the last meeting you uh the board had a couple questions for her uh but yes they sent out the correction order um so I don't know JJ if you'd heard anything back or that were put out JJ I don't know if they were yours or I think they were yours they weren't it wasn't a very pretty environment no and and my co-worker is is here too Donna who has a lot more experience than I do but yeah um we didn't receive any specific questions from the board I don't know if that was what the question was or um Colleen is that what you meant when you uh well the board last time had uh said that they had some questions so I'm I'm not sure okay one of the thing I think as a board what we in terms of authority and what we're passing on and what what we're not passing on um Lee and and Bill my my question and and at least even my opinion I'll throw that out and maybe we can start by talking there my opinion is that the inspector who is a qualified inspector ought to be an and and the also experienced ought to be in the position that he or she can issue orders and so they they give the complaint they do the inspection they give the do the complaint and they issue the the compliance requirements in in my view that's what we should be passing on to to our inspectors and and I would think that we would be doing that to Lynn also for us again this is my my opinion right now just to lay on the table for us to talk about but if it comes down to condemnation at least in this town condemn ation is not a very frequent occurrence and the board should keep the responsibility for doing the condemnation that that bill and and Lee and JJ and and Don what whatever there's some opinions let's let's blow holes them let so I would say yeah it's up to we came in and did the inspection and gave you know documented what we saw but we would think that it's up to your board to decide what to do from there dick is or JJ was the house is the house occupied yes okay I believe there are four units one is unoccupied we inspected two units and the third person wasn't there so we couldn't get into that third unit okay dick I'm just going historically from the first time I was on the board of health back in the late 80s I don't believe and correct me if I'm wrong I don't believe we've ever condemned a building or a dwelling unit actively a housing individuals is that correct I don't probably not I don't know that that's an absolute number bill of like you said it doesn't happen often that's for no no so that's why that's why when I looked at that I said Gee that that's such a big event that the board should be actively involved in making that decision but let's push back a little so if we can say it sounds like we we could agree to that but if we talk about davej going in and finding front door of the unit doesn't have a lock in it and she said that that needs to be fixed in 30 days and I'm ordering that to be done and then she looked and finds that the toilet is overflowing there's mold all over and she saids that is absolutely intolerable that has to be done in 24 hours that are we in a spot that I very comfortable with giving JJ or I'm just using JJ because she's the one that did that but JJ's that authority to speak for the board and say that that the board is absolutely gonna stand behind her and her word is is one that that's enforceable but Lee and Bill what are you thinking about that the question is why isn't the landlord at this this hearing tonight well let's let's talk let's let's let's move this for right now let's move it away from from this particular one let's talk up if we can get through the policy part of it and then let's move back into this particular situation if that's okay Le I don't hear anything from you I'm I'm I'm doing a lot of thinking isn't getting me anywhere um so J JJ how many days ago did you you folks do this inspection we went on octob um August 2nd August 2nd so the beginning of the month okay and you met the landlord no we have not met the landlord and I um haven't had I haven't been able to contact him I can't find a phone number um we sent a correction order to the work address that we found but I can't find a contact phone number to even talk to him uh I'll have to see um I may have a phone number for him I can what's the and the property 12 jackiey circle oh okay that's the old nabala house okay okay yeah so at this point get that phone number to you I think I have that for the thank you yeah I think that I think that place has been sold a couple of times in the last two years if I'm not mistaken again we're we're trying to get us so that we we don't get on that one yet if we can look at the policy and and just let us understand let us all understand what kind of authorities we're giving JJ and remember this this was an issue that got Lynn tangled up too and so we we worked hard to to to make Lyn be in in the eyes of the community the community knows that Lynn was part of us and spoke for us and if if we're gonna use again I say JJ but but I mean it a a bigger a bigger view of JJ's position than than just JJ if we're gonna use them are are we gonna let that infector be able to issue orders and make it so that they're enforcable and the board is just GNA say come with May we're gonna have faith in that inspector and we're gonna stand behind that person or are we going to say JJ you do the inspection and send it to the board and we'll we'll do the the paperwork and the orders what Le and Bill what are you thinking okay well if we if we go down that path which is you know fine I think um where do we end up and it's not it's not my money it's none of our money but where do we end up if if the order to condemn the property is agreed upon by uh this agency and that means that uh no one can live there and the town of grb is responsible for housing these individuals off site um where do we go from there if that's what we end up doing what my other words to actually actually the landlord should be financially responsible for their housing but when we started off as I my proposal was that the board keep the responsibility for condemnation since it doesn't happen very often very often as B say maybe never so so we could not give up that Authority but my proposal is to give up everything else to the inspector okay okay I mean yeah uh this is uh their area of expertise not any of us have this background um we have to I guess at this point we have to give a little bit of rope to this organization to make some corrections for all parties concerned as far as a health and safety perspective goes and I would see as Lynn sitting right in with that same thing yeah okay uh as part of this do we CCN uh Town Council or or at least the uh the different boards that do inspections unless it's automatically done as far as the building inspector fire Plumbing um to understand the scope of the corrections and have them done uh meeting current local and state code unless that's already a given I don't know how the whole thing works through how many of these uh similar situations have you guys dealt with in other towns this is our first housing that we've done outside of um well in this whole in this um collaboration okay okay so how do we know that we're proceeding in the right stream here to get everything done cleaned up fixed uh safety of the tenants priority um but also not stepping on uh whatever rights of course that the owner the landlord has as well well I'm G ask you JJ in keeping with what Le just asked when you look at your chain of command does it end up that for instance does Meredith review these reports is there somebody that reviews them and said yep those are those are in keeping in keeping with the the requirements that that the state has or the accepted standards that Northampton has that somebody has that in terms of what Lee just asked that that we don't end up with an inspector that end up in way out in left field and everybody's in a lot of trouble without knowing well we I mean we have to go by housing code and I did we you know I worked with Donna on this because she's done many housing you know outside of grany so um we didn't run this one by Meredith but you I worked with Donna on it okay so you guys within within your system you've got a system of checks and balances that said Yep this is we're within accepted Norms here and you know we're not out in a spot that all of a sudden some lawyer is going to come and get us and say whoa you just you know broke someone's rights and and it happen anyway doing it the right way we can still get in that kind of trouble but but at least you're you're not standing out there alone you've said GE we we've done the common sense take a look at it and how does this fit compared to what normal is and I think what if you can hear me I'm it's I'm Donna Bowman yeah I can I can see oh that's right I'm one of the I'm the only one that can see you I get in paen kid um yeah like JJ said we strictly when we're doing housing inspections it's strict strictly by Massachusetts housing code so there would be nothing in our orders or of Correction uh that would be anything outside of the scope of the of the Massachusetts housing code that's really good Lee in terms of what you just made a comment on that's definitely way way way better than I could right absolutely I don't hear you are you with us or are you doing one of your other projects Bill no no dick I'm thinking Don a housing code what what is it it's 410 CMR something or other or is it what housing code are we using correct it's 105 410 CM okay 105 yeah okay now I think in the first part of that do they have condemnation Criterion actually it's towards the end of the housing code yeah actually if you could read that to the board because Dick this is the kicker so if they if they wholly wholly affect the uh 105 CMR 410 Mass housing code they're actually respons ible for the condation and not necessarily the board of heal so don if you be kind enough to read that pertinent section that would be great okay give me one second I'm just gonna pull it up thank you okay thank you you're welcome we can Donna could read that but I'm just saying at this point I'm uncomfortable that if we have to have a special meeting that that JJ and Donna said this is really so terrible we have to condemn this immediately someone's going to get killed if we don't do something it takes us in fact if it's really crazy we can even violate the the three-day notice if if it's really an emergency and we both of this such but but even normally it gives us three days and if we do it not you know expeditiously the worst that is is F we so before that trigger gets pulled but go ahead Donna if you've got it you canly thank you right and I also want to just let according to the correction that was written by JJ U there's nothing in there that says it's it should be condemned at this point it's just uh the violations that were found um I I I don't I'm I'm looking at the correction order now I'm not seeing anything there that says that this should be a condemnation at this point um I I think that moving down the line if there's further inspections things aren't corrected you may get there but uh right now I don't I don't see anything that that states it's it's a condemnation okay okay okay um so so um it's 410 650 and it says it basically says finding that a residence in in in a portion thereof is unfit for human habitation if an inspection conducted pursuant to 105 CMR 410 or 105 CMR 410 600 reveals that an occupied residence or portion thereof is unfit for human habitation the Board of Health shall subject to 105 410 650 B C or D issue a written finding that the residence or portion thereof is unfit for human habitation the finding shall include a statement of the of the material facts and con and conditions upon which the the finding was based okay that's excellent Donna thank you D that's actually good because it kicks it back to us for administrative review that's perfect right right thank you so my concern is already in in statute so so now if if if that's the case the from my standpoint the reason that I was interested in having you folks here Donna and JJ mine were were're not so much about about this particular property other than the fact that were we where were you guys how do you how did you feel in a way that that you didn't feel hung out saying I don't know what we're supposed to do here this is JJ as you said this the first time that you're doing this thing and we went through this last year we absolutely went through this with Lyn saying I don't know if you know ly VZ but but Lynn was saying you know I'm kind of stuck I'm I'm kind of in between I'm you I'm here you're paying me to be here but when I talk to someone when I go into a restaurant I don't know that I've got teeth in what I've said and and can I tell someone to do something or do I have to come back to you and and for sure it it was unsettling enough for Lynn that Lynn said I really don't want to do this job I just it's just not fun to be in this spot and I wanted to make sure that that you folks and this board said that that you understood where you were with this board and how we were going to support you how what we were gonna have you do and uh and from my standpoint where we're going as a state says that that the three members of this board are are dinosaurs and that the state is definitely going to say let's let's have everybody being handled kind of the same way by trained skilled people and just because you're elected as a member of the board doesn't mean you're qualified to do a housing inspection and the state is clearly with there's there's the whatever the 150 page paper that says we ought to be going with the sh shared services and this is exactly one of the spots that the state is saying this is what you get for benefits of that you get some skilled people doing this work and and the the the people in your town are treated in a proper way so so Bill and Le that that's my feeling about what we're gaining with this shared services program and and I'm thinking in this case that it's working just the way it's supposed to be working and we're unfortunately for for Donna and JJ it's it's probably our single messiest one and it was one that that uh Lynn bowed out that she said because she's working full-time at another job trying to untangle this one was just need somebody that's that's being paid to do this kind of thing for for a living so so you guys are in in the middle of if we can get through this one the rest piece of cake yeah it's by far not the worst we've seen um I can say at the beginning of your of your what you were saying Richard is that I think it might have been a little a little confusing when when JJ said it's the first one she's doing it's not the first housing inspection she's done it's the first gramby thaty I didn't want it to come never done an inspection before she's done funny of them just not in grber not in Grand I actually understood what you just said is what I understood of of JJ so and I saw her she doesn't look like she's sweating there saying oh my God they caught me on my first one I I fell on my face and they caught me no I don't see that their face okay so so are are Lee and and Bill are we set with JJ and and Donna right now yeah I think we've cover the bases we we know the way the chain of command's going to be set up and I I think it's going to work out very well Lee what are you thinking no I'm thinking same same train of thought as you two guys okay I think we have a good start uh the right people in place and uh proceed okay then we thank you for coming and visiting with us okay thank you nice to meet you thank you good to see you both thank you same here same here concerns please feel free to reach out to us okay okay thank you have a good night Donna JJ thank you so much bye now bye bye you well so our next item is we I've got Allan is Al Allen is still here um we' we probably is our is Peter Wilson I'm just looking I don't see Peter Wilson here I'm here by phone if you can hear me oh okay y okay Peter you're looks like we're we're definitely late with you um that's all right I understand you guys busy agenda tonight yeah and it wasn't supposed to be but it it is um before before we give out a a new installers license we we talk to the the installer and we don't have a test we we really uh lee does Lee is do that b shahen is here and and leand and me dick Bombadier uh three members of the board and we like to basically get a pretty good feeling for the uh skills and credentials and and actually some attitude of a new installer that Lee ends up doing the the inspection and so we start off we we'd like you not to get get in trouble in our town and we'd like us not to get in trouble because you got in trouble in our town and so and septic systems for us is are are very important they they they really do protect almost all of our our homes and residents are drinking from Wells we've got a lot of wetlands where so so not not getting people sick and not hurting the environment are very important to us so certainly y when but first is what kind of experience do you have have you been have you been doing installations for a long time yes I want to say I go back uh to the mid90s um I've had licenses in ammer Northampton pelum shutesbury Leverett uh belr town I've not ever worked in gry um regarding septic install um okay I believe those are all the licenses I've used um and so originally if you go back far enough um can't think of his name uh who used to be the Board of Health agent in ammer zarosinski Dave oh Dave zinski yeah yeah so it go it goes back a lot of years yeah if you were to guess how many septic systems were you actually in charge of installing so I was talk I was thinking about that on my ride home from Northampton today um you know honestly I don't keep track of them but I would tell you that probably over the last 30 years we probably have done 30 systems I I don't um I don't do them every day uh but different projects in different towns or cities um you know is where our next project lies yeah not thousands but not 30 no not not thousands no no and I'd be and I'd be lying to everyone there if I even said you know was it 32 or was it 29 it's like I I honestly have not counted them but I do know the towns yeah but it's kind of one a year is what you're doing yeah and there may be an occasional year where we might do too just depending on the project I think we've worked out in wear as well um because we used to do some TurnKey work for the home store um which took us a little further away from the center of do you y do are you on site supervising the the actual installation yeah I am part of it my my brother and I um are the two principles in our oper op ation and we both are there um when we do the installs what what do you use to shoot grad so we use a laser okay okay are are print something that that you're really familiar with that that use prints for every other parts of your job or you know is it just once a year that you look at print um are you specifically talking about septic system plans or are you talking in general just building plans yeah building plans and septics looking at at grades and elevations and I'm just trying to get a a feeling that when you when you pick up a set of prints are is it something you say yeah I don't know this looks more like a an a oh yeah no no we've been yeah sorry to sorry to jump in there no we've been building since 87 um so you know both Harry and I review the plans or prints uh other details related to whatever it is we're building um I both Harry and I but typically I do most all the Excavating um because we do all that within our operations so all the site work um you know all of that so yeah we we pay a lot of attention to the plans well you know to be honest with you um the only things we really sub out again it's all predicated upon how busy we are with projects so we will have a couple of other subs come in but primarily um this is a house I'm building for myself in grany and we you know automatically all the Electrical Plumbing HVAC are subbed out insulation typically is but not always and same for drywall typically is but not always depending on how many projects we have going and how we can manage the schedule of course um but that's those are typically typically the ones we sub out in this case I had to drill a well so that was subd out of course but if it were Town Water and Sewer we would do all the tie-ins because we do emergency sewer and water repair um and we've done that you know going back the last it's I guess it's creeping up on 40 years now so what what kind of equipment do you have so we have uh bulldozers excavators uh in fact I was out there to dig the depes on on my particular lot because of the elevation change um back hose um Bobcat dump trucks um we've got specialty equipment like asphalt grinder you know um the zipper we've got one of those weuse yeah we' got we got a bunch of stuff yeah yeah we've got other stuff like Landscaping rakes you know that will um loosen the soils that goes on we've got probably 10 different attachments that go on the Bobcat um but primarily those are the items we've got you know a couple large front end loaders because we also commercial plow snow um but we wouldn't have any that we wouldn't have something that big yeah where is this system that you're putting in so it's it's Lot B it's the lot I bought from Jim nrai over on Lion Street oh yep oh so it's it's a a Sandy lot yes oh a lot that that's all that we've met before yeah if you're dick then we've met cuz um you were out there when I did the depole redid theole um testing yeah so there's there's our smaller excavator we have one smaller than that but that's what I used to dig those dick dick is that a 60,000 square foot lot is that in the water protection zone or no now that one that one is ended up that it does it did F once you when you looked at at the the state requirement versus grany re requirement we did go through that and it's he was going to change the number of bedrooms and he didn't have to I got you okay but I at Bill and yeah I know yeah I know where those properties are I I have met with this gentleman with Peter and I'm very convinced after seeing him and listening to him and you know dealing with what we did on the site and what he was talking about and what he understood while I was there I'm I'm very comfortable yeah that what's what's the name of your company uh Wilson Construction oh okay okay well you do a lot of Paving don't you so that's another Wilson out of chapy okay it's another Wilson we do some Paving uh that's a that's another offshoot cuz we do offer to our commercial and couple of we have probably a handful of industrial sit where we do concrete and and Paving work okay um all part of Excavating and site work that we provide because I think in belur toown years ago there was a Tom Wilson there there could have been that might have third Wilson yeah okay anyway Lee do you have no I think um I think we're um got the questions out of the way a lot of experience uh Sandy lot so you know between and between it should be uh it should be a good relationship pet I have one question for you that I asked it's not so important on your job but in the event that we're not giving you a a license for just this one job but in the event that you've got a you've got a drawing your going to do a a job and you get out get on your machine you start digging and you find out what's in the ground isn't what the prce says is going to be in the ground what do you do I would first call the um designer what I would try that that is a good answer but the other part of the answer is that that we're in this together you've got the license so you're going to end up being the one that gets hung with it if it's not right but the Board of Health needs to be involved too that if because we we approve something and when you as the installer says gee what the board approved is not what's here then as this question we ask every single person that that if the job heads South you want to make sure that your customer's lawyer isn't having the Board of Health as a witness you want to make sure that your lawyer is the one that's having the Board of Health as a witness because we all said we know what's going on we've talked this through we're in it together we're going to make the thing work and follow the code oh no I clearly understand um so I should have answered both typically in my experience if I've had any issue with how the design has been laid out elevations are incorrect or we find something I first go back to the design person and then normally typically they talk to the board um so that's why that was my initial Instinct yeah yeah and in fact you got into it issue with that with your designer on your lot so we we had go yeah and fix it yeah I mean as much as I tried with Bob to tell him from the very beginning that we had to pull that null off um so that we could get the lot straight straightened up so to speak uh leveled up is really the answer um to be able to go forward so yeah you know it it I wish it had gone a little sooner but but or a little smoother but um but anyway in the end we we did those test holes and it's it's a nice Sandy uh Sandy gravel um I'm okay with Bill and and Lee are you okay with with Peter yeah who's the designer Peter is it Bob Stover yeah yeah it's Bob yeah that's fine okay again and I know Bob going back to Fred fiio's day the mid 80s 30 40 years oh yes of course yeah yeah that's fine I'm good dick okay Le you are too AB okay you're set Peter Colleen we're we can we're all set have a good night thank you thanks for coming you thank you again yep okay we' still got we've still got some things that are that we let's go at one that's maybe easy we've got a complaint that I'm skipping over the title FES I'll go right back to it in a second what about uh oh Allan and um Josh for 725 or okay that's to do with the title five though yeah okay we've got Allan and Alan I didn't know you were actually going to come but but so we've got this one's on on the dairy mark so we've got a a system colen you this comes in from a couple different directions one is you have the owner yeah basically begging to get an operation so we got a a septic system that wasn't working in term Le from what you said when you were saying people are complaining about the stuid smell back there so we got a pump chamber that's no good a pump that's no good and a sewage just filling up the the septic tank and filling up the the pump chamber and coming on the surface and and a leash field that appears to be not very used so we don't we don't have a design in front of us as I asked I had a conversation with Allan today about a couple different things but uh one is according to code this operation is not a single family or two family house which says that whatever the repairs there has to be if it's a pump it's supposed to be two pumps that's right that's correct that's correct but who pumps in a standby power supply so so we're we've got a repair that's not in that's not in front of us to talk about and we've got a renter who this my understanding a renter who would like to start his operation with septic system what that absolutely doesn't work dick just just to interject um and again i' I've done a few of these in my day uh I would consider waving the standby power system if if and only if the well is also powered by an electric pump because clearly if the power goes out on site the only water you're going to get out of the system is the rest of the charge in the pressure tank so as long as you have your one day Reserve in your pump chamber I don't believe you need a uh a backup power supply okay but that's not in front of us yeah Allen hasn't proposed any uh I guess this this particular when it comes to it if someone says well I'm also going to propose a single pump and and we look at this thing and say you know this whole mess we have here wouldn't be like this if they had the the second pump working there in controls but but anyways we're not at that point yet we're out at a point that maybe Allen is looking for some guidance what he's I'm curious whether or not they have enough property to put a leechfield in a location that is not the existing location for the Lee field but the Lee field Allan you said that the Lee field is good right yes you can hear me yeah I can yeah yes I am so I did a Title Five this is a 20year old system designed by Mr Shaheen Sheen sorry Sheen sorry my bad um and yes it is a single pump system septic tank to a single pump pump chamber system to a dbox leech trench system what we found was that there was no sign of failure in the leech area per se there was some root intrusion in the debox and then as we go backwards the pump was not working so that was overflowed uh the pump chamber was overflowed and then the septic tank also overflowed obviously um because that's up the line from the pump chamber so we're looking at a pump chamber at a component replacement here as I recommended to uh originally to Lee that includes um more likely than not a pump down initially of the septic tank and the pump chamber and then we probably have find in my guess is that it is a 1500 gallon tank we'd find that it's a th gallon pump chamber like the design says with a single pump and we find that the dbox was some root intrusion can be rectified with simply a new debox and some root pulling so going back on the system to the pump chamber after the debox if you go backwards sorry about that but I'm going backwards um we can talk about changing the design but um dick brought that up to me today I hadn't really thought about that and then we're assuming the septic tank still okay now you can also talk about the septic tank in the same way because well that doesn't meet the way we would design it today either in terms of being a single chambered 1500 gallon tank so I don't know how far you want to go backwards on the redesign here versus just component repair and that's kind of where we're stuck so so I best your Anon the only failed component is the electric pump correct that's pretty much it yeah it needs a good pump and it needs a a pump repair and alarm repair um the way it's worked for some 20 years or so I guess was sufficient my understanding is in the store there's the store and there's an apartment upstairs that's one bedroom that met your bylaw at the time with a two-bedroom you know configure um calculation for the kitchen um and that's kind of what I saw in the design um I'm just a little bit um perplexed as to what to propose next it would it be simply to make the components that are there today functional or are you talking about a redesign all to meet all the code requirements and that's kind of where we're at is the tank alen is the is the tank below the fact it's the W the entrance to the tank below the water table no I don't believe water the water the solar valuation I believe called the groundwater around 40 Ines so I think the the inverts are all set above the water table meeting code the tanks did call for balast back then so I I don't know whether I my system shut down or yours down I'm sorry I didn't hear that I was the only one that couldn't hear you yeah dick you're losing signal periodically we're losing you a little bit okay I'm trying somebody dropped out I'm going to head upstairs where it's better I hope that yeah yeah I'm curious so so is was the alarm was the audible alarm working at the time of the failure of the pump I have no idea we couldn't check either quite honestly okay it was all flooded and I think you know the circuitry was probably shut down due to that so there's no question it needs a pump down and a good look by an electrician and a new debox assuming the septic Tank's okay another little story here you they could have had a leaky toilet or a leaky sink or who knows yeah but there's another little story that that uh I was told I'm not gonna I'm purposely not gonna ask the person who involved in fact if they even even are here today but I'm going to tell you a story about this owner and the the person that was maintaining the septic system told the owner that this system was in trouble and it wasn't working right and the owner CH not to to address the problem so this owner in terms of coming up with a system that you know that requires a a friendly Observer to say stuff isn't working right as compared with the duplication that the code requires here to say ah we're not going to trust the owner going to do that perfectly right thing we're going to design in some amount of robust that I could I could support your stand still saying that that as long as someone didn't put a generator in to to make sure they had heat and water and didn't Supply power to the septic system then than not having the standby power as part of this design I could support but in terms of not putting the second system in the the pumping system I don't think I can support that yeah I yeah I agree it should have the Dual pumps I mean just as an observation um the water was an inch from the ground all all the way around and as we walked towards the back of the sis um some of the pine trees were foot across at the base so you know it was put in some years ago um and hasn't had much if any maintenance since um oh we really don't we we I mean the the tank itself the debox itself needs needs work the pump chamber needs two pumps for sure yeah yeah if you have if you have root infiltration in some of the pipe Network those roots should be carefully removed if possible if possible yeah I'm concerned or at least cut off so they don't continue to grow yeah has work yeah you you don't know that that system was working it may not have been working at all if if the pump worked maybe would Happ worded out the vents who knows right like maybe the pump failed because it's deadheaded cu the quintum pump everything was all plugged up up there mhm so you don't know you don't know anything about it all you know is that that the pump wasn't pumping water up in the into that hill and the hill was dry that's all you know but it could be a a hill of root if I could may I speak sure um I guess what I need from you folks would be some direction as to what you're looking for for a submitt and I'll leave that if you need to discuss it further that's fine but that's about where I'm at right now as to how to proceed I think where we are right now is we're saying you don't need a second or you don't need a a separate power supply you do need two pump you have to figure out whether the the septic is no good on top of that and we're what we're struggling it with right now Allan is whether we're GNA say someone's got to look inside that take a representative look at the Lee field and see if if it's you know been attacked by the roof is that is that what we're saying Lee and Bill yes the that's what I said said open up the dbx and possibly Al do you have a a small portable camera can you camera the lines easily enough of course that's exactly where my brain was going I yeah that makes good sense see if the lines are loaded with roots there then we're GNA see so if you look at the rather than this destroy the the SAS if you if you look at it from the inside yeah bill you said certainly if you've got trees on the perimeter that that you know the roots are headed over there you should do something about those and then once you once you start pumping water then you're going to see whether it it really after a few different Cycles you'll see whether the the SAS is is functioning so so so it looks like Allan does have a a direction for him to go but how about the owner do we want to do anything to provide relief for the owner there you for instance what if the owner came to us with a request that said do me a favor let me pump that that tank out the septic tanks let me Pump It out and every two weeks let me pump it out so I can stay in business until yeah yeah yeah run is a tight tank for a couple of months of course of course Lee what do you think of that um in the spirit of being cooperative yes um but historically when we give people breaks uh they break our back with it um we need some type of a d drawn up that uh forces the hand to do just that and I don't know the person I'm not criticizing the new owner but we need them to tow the Mark at all times so that we don't repeat what we just um ended with six months ago that somehow the gravity um or the height whatever it was force the liquid into the system not functioning onto the surface um and we don't want it to just linger for another year or two in in that fashion without having some control to uh shut them down or whatever to get the job done I would propose that we set a time limit well I'm gonna before I set the time limit I think what Bill said is something that that we would say okay you want to run it as a pike tank you've got controls out there you've got alarms you've got they're going to a pump chamber but if we're going to turn let's we give to the let's see SE October November December the 1 of December is the end of when that could be run as a tight tank and the alarms have to be set up in the septic tank that have it set up that we get the warnings the of the tight tanks saying hey someone pumped this and then the other warning that says we're shutting this building down because the the tank is is too full that we actually turn it into a tight tank with its alarms and controls and then put a a limit that says we're not going to let it go beyond the 1 of December that's perfect yeah what I think I'll do is recommend that Josh and I go back and do part two which is to go back pump everything down take a look at the septic tank camera the debox look at the pipes and then uh make a recommendation on where to go from there okay but from from the owner's standpoint what we're saying Alan is that turning that septic tank into doing what you need to do to turn it into a a tight tank with controls and alarm and the get the I'm guessing what you'd end up having to do is block the outlet so it can't it can't flood again but but but set the thing up so he's got a 1500 gallon sight tank that he can run until the the 1 of December and then the system has to be installed by then by then and an operation that gives you time to do stuff but at least it gives you it puts him in a spot that if you get his conversion and get it pumped and ready for him to to use it as a tight pack he can get in business yeah yeah I think that's more than fair okay so are you gonna put something in writing or no we will will write something so fair enough but at least you're part of it you know you you've got to do the investigative part of it but but also but also so you've got a little job if the owner says to do it is to turn that thing into a tight tank that with alarms to make it a regulation you know not the 2,000 gallons you can't do that part of it but the control part of it so it complies with the tight tank regulations get it in the store so people know someone sees it and just let them know that we would let them get started and I'm guessing they would like to have something happen I don't know what's happening to the the rental property the guy who or the woman whoever the family whatever it is upstairs that's trying to flush their toilet that they must need relief so but that part tur it into the tight tank and and the for up to the three months that would have to be between you and the owner right that's not the Board of Health is allowing that we're not telling you I'm not sure what you mean by that statement but I understand what you're what I'm what I'm saying Alan is you don't work for us what we're saying is that we're we're now speaking for the owner who said help me help me I or the rental guy the store the store owner saying please I need to get in business so speaking for him we're we're saying the way we would allow that to happen in this situation is you pump the tank down the septic tank you turn it into the the tight tank for up through the beginning the the 1 of December but the only person that can authorize you to do that work is that the owner the Board of Health says if someone wanted to do that we would allow that but we can't tell you to do it because the owner may say I don't want you to do that at all I'm a little puzzled though how it would meet the tight tank rules and that there's not an alarm in there now and there's not you know all the other components that we normally talk about it's kind of under an emergency repair provision I but you would have to put the alarm in there and there's alarms out there you know if you look the the system for alarm is actually there for the for the pump chamber so an electrician ought to be able to say okay I'll temporarily put the float I understand I move the just move the floats over all you have to do is move the floats over real simple so we're trying to give we're trying to get get us in a spot that the the long-term repair gets done and upgraded but that the the owner who is really begging to get some relief so he he owns a place he he says he's play paying lease on it and uh he's trying to get in business and we're trying to help him get in business that's okay okay okay Al thank you nice to see you okay di dick no pun intended but the only reason the system is working now is because you got8 feet of hydraulic head because the guy lives on the second floor I know if the guy lived on the first floor he'd really be in trouble that's right yeah that's right never work so the um so their licenses for tobacco and food uh you're going to allow those then not until the until the tight tank system that we agreed to is functional because at this point there is no there is no septic system for this yeah Sy y okay yeah and at this instance we just said that we would allow it but Allan hasn't asked to do it so the owner hasn't asked Allan to do this we just anticipated that they would want to do something so that's where it's fans okay got it got it we' been one that I think we can maybe two of them we can deal with kind of quickly that we've got a complaint that 16 East Street from Sandy can odors when The Wine House hotties are are pumped I I don't know how you I feel I drove over there it looks like the sany cans are looks like they're more than 100 feet from from this house and when I looked at it and said okay so someone's gonna pump out whatever once a week once a day I don't think it's once a day but let's say once a week a truck comes in and pumps it out they they I don't know whe they're 15 minutes an hour and they're gone it's not a and if depending on the breeds or whatever it's it's not something that's ongoing it it's part of pumping out the thananan on a on a program that that won't be there forever I I I don't think that we are guaranteed that we won't smell anyone any anybody is guaranteed that you won't smell anything that you don't like in life but but I don't know Lee and Bill what are you thinking about this one um I'm not sure if it's a weekend you know Saturday morning event or because the person's home on you know I I I I don't know there's no way to resolve this um because because the SK they may be home all the time so there's never going to be a day where they're at work you know what I mean till 4 in the afternoon yeah and as we as we all know depending on the temperature humidity it um changes the um outcome dramatically yeah here's the question dick the reported event was it done first thing in the morning when did they pump this out don't know ien didn't I think he said it was in the morning yes yeah because typically typically early early in the morning the winds are pretty calm it's probably best if they do it midday or a little later that's when the winds tend to pick up but I'm just again this just observation over time for myself the air tends to be still early early in the morning you know what we what we could do we could have colen get in touch with with Jim prompty and ask them until we get the the toilet straightened out could he try to have them pumped out when it's when it's Breezy yeah yeah and just ask them see if he'll he'll cooperate more than likely knows he knows about when it's going to have to be done and and if they just try to to do something that we we could maybe make the situation a lot better so have him get them pumped later in the day or what did you say no ask him ask him if he if he could try to work with his supplier to have it pumped out when when it's Breezy when it's Breezy that what you're saying yeah okay see if you can try to do that okay it's worth a try and it might give rid of 90% of the problem the let let's go let's go through title fives I have some problems with the title five I've got some notes on them uh maybe we can we can Wing through these things that that uh quick well what I should do is quickly give you a report on do Dollar General I did get in touch after Colleen got the note from pby Taylor the the lawyer from Dollar General turns out Colby uh worked for Dollar General I don't know what a lawyer to is or what whatever her title was but she said she is not a contract person she is works for Dollar General she said she was she apologized for having situation there gets this far and that that it's really the letter that Colleen sent that apparently moved it up through their system that ended up going back into cby F she did arrange for Tyler to get in touch with me kby assured me that he didn't want to be in the middle of it she she definitely was happy to have the Board of Health and Tyler work together she ultimately said before this is thought oh she did say there are probably three different entities involved and the board didn't have to worry about it that there were at least the owner the Dollar General there may be a different owner of the building that's that's involved and that's not including the original Engineers the secondary Engineers the Tyler a company and she said regardless of all of that the Board of Health would not see the fact that there's an issue with how the dollars will move around that the Board of Health was only going to see that it got fixed and she said it was she was committing to get the thing fixed uh I did talk this to uh to Avery to Tyler Avery he is gonna Supply us with some working kind of drawing that we can review and U what in a subsequent conversation pby Taylor told me the only thing before it went ahead and got done that she would like some kind of agreement between Dollar General and the Board of Health that if whatever the agreement was that we would say that's a good faith thing we think it's going to work and we're not going to come back at them and say oh it didn't work you have to do it all over again but she recognized that a different board could have a different opinion but she was just trying to get something in principle saying we all agree that this Pi should work yeah yeah they want us to agree to the one bite at the Apple Solution that's the problem now secondly dick as business people what they did is exactly what you'd expect they know that we got them somewhat on a on a leverage on a leverage bar at this point saying that if they didn't say what they said we would resend their tobacco license going forward so they' essentially done they've done what they've got to do from a business perspective to get us to release their tobacco license I'm going to predict dick next August we're going to be in the exact same boat I predict nothing will be done within one year that's my prediction let's figure out how we how we make that be an let's make it not happen that way that's right and be aware that that our track record with this is we've been told at least once before don't worry this will happen it'll be mono to mono and and we'll work as you as you did the the Milestone chart and say okay we're gonna do this and everybody yep that that that was that was two years ago that was two years ago and then we find out that we can't even find pilot but all right what um how about a uh six month only tobacco license be a worthwhile kind of thing that uh because that's coming up that's coming up soon right colen yes I've sent the applications out the existing tobacco licenses will expire the end of September so first of October y yeah so Bill I don't know what you're thinking about it but it it's certainly maybe we don't even do six months maybe we do three months maybe maybe it depends on how soon Tyler gets back to us but we're going to have to make up our mind pretty soon I agree but maybe three months is is is better that says okay that that's way we we just keep everybody on a short leak I agree I agree three months is fine with me so so we haven't we haven't made it so it was illegal for them to do anything but we've at least said you know you're on our mind okay uh in terms of Title Five we've got oh we did we did the St Mark that was my first one yeah but the next one I have is uh maybe we do an easy one 54 fairy hill road that was a path I did talk to to Allan but colen found out so that's a 1500 gallon septic tank um Colleen did manage to dig out the design uh it is a Title 5 designed a pump system and it's four feet from the bottom of the SAS to the water table so that was we didn't even give a three- foot you know 4 foot to three foot variance for that one the only question is an old septic tank and I I don't understand I thought I thought we had a regulation that says on Title Five inspections the tanks would always be pumped so we could look inside the tank or you could look inly and see if the tank's in good shape but but I'm seeing like this one in fact when I asked Allan how come it wasn't pumped he said well it looks like the town of gramby doesn't have a regulation that says it's supposed to be pump and I I just I don't understand it that's just normal practice in this business that they pump the tank on inspection that's standard practice yeah well you're the one that sees it I was under and I don't know why but I was under the impression that J JH was simply going to uh because Josh was there doing the physical opening of the components and I was under the impression that he was going to cycle back with his truck later in the day when time permitted but clearly I missed that okay maybe what happens is we just have to tell the inspectors that that thing by the time you show up on the on the job B that that it's got to be pumped and recognize the problem the problem with it is a double EDG sord you don't if that's what happens you don't get a chance to see that the level in the tank is the proper level yeah I mean it's rare um that the is not done at the time that I that I get there um and I think on this one here I think what happened was that we spent the first part of the morning at Cindy's and then we ran down to um Union Mark and from Union Mark we shot down the fery Hill Road okay uh and Josh was doing all three so he was stretched out pretty thin Y which I think is how he got to the point that um you know he can't be in three places at one time and Chase his equipment y uh because at CC was in the back um he just left Union Mark with the same backo and he was supposed to be swinging back to the um office on East Street to grab the pumper truck yeah and he ran out of uh time in vehicles to move himself around maybe maybe the answer Lee is is the the do it that the inspector has to be the one that that after that after you've seen the tank that the inspector has to certify that he's seen the empty tank and it's in good it's in sound condition and then it can get done after you're aiting yeah that's on the inspection form dick that's that's right on the form yeah yeah Allen Allen would be the would be the eyes if we ran out of time and I think what happened in this case was that we tried to do re inspections um in the time permitted to do you know theoretically one only yeah and Cindy was Cindy was a uh a deole um logging the holes for future expansion yeah but I see the next one that I want us to talk about was 31 cold Hill Drive and it looks like Greg didn't pump that one either um because they weren't going to um continue as far as I know Neil is going to start have to do some design work up there oh you're right when you read that one they've said that the tank was no good anyway you didn't have to you didn't have to pump it because they knew it was no good to start that's that's what I mean yeah yeah yeah so so anyway so I guess we accept excuse me yeah uh could you explain to me what you just said about the tanket 31 cold Hill Drive oh we we actually didn't get into 31 yet where I just said that that wasn't pumped either but we first we're going to be done with with uh 54 hold till and then we can move to 31 thank you uh 30 actually you know what so we can just leave so we can just accept 54 is okay as the past well yeah I mean um I think it's reasonable um to continue with the normal function of doing a Title Five to have that pumped and either alen or myself can be present at that time yeah okay since the normal um process was interrupted yeah so the ne the next one that I have and we've done seven L drive that one we accepted uh we are going to go 30 we can do 31 pole till that one is a that's Greg and his is one that says Board of Health needs further inspections but that one is a I I don't have it right in front of you but let's talk about a 70y old system Greg like Greg says it's Needs Board of Health inspection it's got a he says that the the kitchen the kitchen and a a sink and a laundry goes into a separate unknown system that looks like it's sitting on top of a perimeter drain so it looks like that probably goes wherever the the puding drain goes to the the septic tank is in bad condition and some 70 years old maybe uh and it's too small uh the the leech field is in determinant that it looks like two lines coming out of the the septic tank without a a dbox just a t and don't know where at least one of the lines goes he says that the SAS is at 40 two Ines in the water tables at 64 uh he didn't say that the bottom of the SAS is set but he did say it's only a 20 in the one spot that he saw it was only a 22 in separation but he doesn't know the size of of this thing and uh it it looks like like this is really a terrible failed system that doesn't comply with Co and Greg is saying the Board of Health should just re-evaluate what do what do we do on on this one do we just say that this this is and it looks like he said maybe 40 or 50 years ago something was done to the the leech field so we're we're too close to the water table we probably have some of the in fact he says some of it doesn't even the effluent doesn't go into the septic system some of it and that one looks like it goes directly into a a drain a footing drain dick there's not a SE there's not a second septic tank there's only one septic tank he couldn't find it I guess uh the story go excuse me again so um I'm co-owner of 31 cold Hill Drive so you're you couldn't find a septic tank what could you not find whoa whoa whoa whoa we don't you have an engineer that you hired that kind of question has to go to him what what okay we're doing is looking at the report that the engineer gave okay and he he didn't say it passed it or fail he said that the Board of Health needs to investigate it again and what what I'm doing for the board is saying this is what it said in the report and in a case like this my belief is in a case like this the Board of Health needs to be saying that system needs to replaced because it does not comply with with Title 5 and and is going to damage the environment but but that's that's what I feel that and that's why I'm bringing it up for for Lee and Bill to talk about it too okay thank you so what are you Lee and and Bill what are Neil someo um and they talked about the fact that uh Bob rule uh modified the system I don't know how many years ago keep it going uh it's a very the lot's not as deep as one would think um there's a wetlands in the back that was flagged but I got the impression the way Neil was uh having Greg do different Halls that they were um knowingly heading towards um the next conversation which would be designing a new system for this location I don't know why we're getting a needs further evaluation when it was um clearly a absolutely so from from that standpoint is that the way you see it too Bill Neil how were you involved did you do the inspection no I didn't do the inspection I did a soil evaluation um basically I was there to to determine water table so we didn't have a three-foot separation from the bottom of the leeching area the S the SAS we didn't have 3 ft from the bottom of the SAS the water table so I believe Greg I mean that's not failure criteria for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts but because you only need you don't even one inch yeah do you have two feet of Separation uh I don't I don't remember if we had two we certainly didn't have three now the ne the next issue is is there a debox there's not it it comes out of the tank and it teas to two uh clay clay yeah well so that's a problem you can't look at the invert level out of the dbox because there's no dbox right so you you'd have to look at that as one one trench basically yeah it doesn't meet failure criteria I mean the time what I'm saying has has the system been in continuous use over the past few years Bill Bill sa a system there a whole other system that's dumping into the footing drain right yeah everything's not going into that that system is he sure that it's it's going into a footing drain is he did he see that right above it yeah there's if you ever I don't know where you're going bill this is the one of the worst system again again I'm just wondering why Everson threw it back to us it's so obvious there's something doesn't make sense here oh because it the system's functioning is it old yes is it is it going to support three bedrooms probably not but I mean you know as where in Title Five well Neil I can't ask you that's not be careful because if you're gonna defend everon then you're gonna also if you're gonna speak for because my my concern is no place in Title 5 does it say it's okay for the sink and the laundry to go into a hole in the ground with the perforated pipe that's right above the footing drink no place does that say that it's okay and and great can say that and Neil if you want to stand there and say you've got aot Title Five that says it's okay then you ought to go no no I am not agreeing with that I I think his I'm not I can't speak for Greg but I I believe he feels that system may be functioning at the time of the inspection and again is it a good system no is it a system that the town if if you better not be going there Neil because if you're going to defend them defend them because if that footing drain goes into the Into the Storm sewer in the street then maybe Greg's got to go there with with people from dep and let Greg tell de when I inspect I think it's okay for stage to go into a a surface drain no I I'm gonna say that passes he thinks it's going into a a perimeter drain not a storm drain does the perimeter drain discharge in the Wetland out back uh he didn't determine that there is a we did hit the pipe that's that's headed towards the Wetland yes but we we couldn't find where it daylighted so there is a pipe probably doesn't go to a septic tank right oh no he didn't find that no I don't believe it Go sew sewage is supposed to go to when you do a Title Five again you want to defend Greg get ready because we're going to be talking about if you're doing inspection and saying it's okay if sewage goes down a drain that probably goes to daylight but it definitely doesn't go to a septic tank and that's okay according to Title Five if you think that's okay then we're gonna go at your your inspections the same way because Neil it's not okay okay that was okay no I I think Greg's point was the SAS itself is functioning so he can't fail the SAS because it doesn't have three foot of Separation now when you guys go out you're not looking at a house septic system you go for one little piece and say I'm gonna pass this house even though I know there's parts of it that are breaking the law I'm going to pull my name and stamp on it saying this complies with Title 5 inspection even though you know that it absolutely doesn't Neil what why isn't Greg at this hearing tonight again what Greg should be here with us don't know I mean I wouldn't have passed the system either I wouldn't have passed the system so so from our standpoint Phil and Lee in a case like this what Idol five said well in and Greg's standpoint he threw it to the Board of Health and he he bypassed it and said I'm not even G to make a comment on whether this fails why don't we inv why don't we invite Greg to our next meeting in two weeks well I think we don't I think what Greg gave us is enough to say is Greg says that further investigation from the Board of Health it doesn't it doesn't take all of the the effin from the house isn't going to the system some of it goes in a different place it's too close to the water table the Tank's not in good condition it's too small for all of those reasons it says this meets our Criterium for us sending out a letter to the owner saying that the the system requires uh replacement that's what we normally would do and it's according to what we have for power by Title 5 um could I ask a question sure so it is my understanding that a Title Five is required if you are putting your home on the market is that correct that is one of the reasons that you would do a Title Five the Board of Health can also require a Title Five to be done for a reason that that we would see that said boy we think someone should take a look at that and now we now we've got one now it's been done so so that it's it's not something that the Board of Health can now say you know what we don't care what we're not going to see it we're gonna make believe it's gonna happen but that would be the title five would typically be involved typically with the selling up a house or if you were to increase the use of the house or change change the number of bedrooms uh changed what you were doing for for the load on the yeah dick if it were an in interf family transfer in accordance with the specific criteria and in the code if it was interf family they wouldn't even need to do the title five that's correct unless the board had reasons to believe that a Title Five should be done because until this title five was requested to be done you had no reason to to have it done so who initiated this title five to be done Deborah Peloquin initiated it doesn't it doesn't really matter what do we where are we headed we've got a system that's no good it's not being used and it it shouldn't be used it's not good it's it's doing something bad for our Earth and for the people that live around there and for maybe the people that live in the house and so what will the town of grany require to be done the setic system has to be designed and un Sol that's what we typically would do Lynn who's Diane Peloquin uh Deborah Peloquin is my sister okay my sister and myself are now own of 31 ctail Drive okay okay just so so I'm just just trying to gather information I'm not yeah what what really are we're in a spot that that it it's a system that that's an old system yeah it's it's not protecting the the environment well at all it's it's really it's a system that it may even be that the house would have trouble being put there now but but that's not the house is there and so the the issue is the think there it's a really old system that needs to be needs to be replaced and and the typical time that people replace them is when houses typically when either when it fails and people can't use their house or if the house is going to change hands that you say okay that it's this is a an old old system that and and we have some old systems but they're in and they still work but that that they're usually in in better soils okay and better soils than this so it's in in reality it it really it's higher than old and it really does need to to be replaced okay well I thank you I thank you for answering my questions and taking the time to listen to me and um it's you know things that I'm not all aware of so I've learned a lot listening to this conversation and I appreciate everything that all of you have given to me as far as information goes and in reality what what we would expect and that what surpris bill and a surprise Lee is for an inspector to be saying very much the the same thing to say GE this one part of it looks like it would comply with with Title Five and and you have to be careful that title five requirements are so so generous that they're they're made so that a person that that's an in that's not an inspector it's just a system inspector he not someone or he it's not someone that's that's qualified or licensed to design septic systems that work according to Title 5 it is in fact somebody that in many cases installs in many cases installs septic systems and and Title Five gives the list of let's say 10 different things that are so bad Title 5 says if you fail one of these your fails you don't need to be an expert you just need to be trained to do these inspections but in terms of figuring out whether the water table is is at a certain level you're not trained for that and and so what what Title 5 does do is it says okay Board of Health take with them the information that inspector saw and now you've got the the power and hopefully the expertise to look at that and say you know what it didn't meet one of these things that made it fail this test but in reality it it's got these other things that make it so it's not protecting the environment properly and let the and the board then can say it doesn't matter that you pass and this one it didn't pass but so that's where we that's where we are and uh L I'm glad we could help you tonight I I I'm guessing you're hearing what you didn't want to hear but I think we're giving you good advice uh knowledge is power so okay it's good to know what things that you don't understand that are new to you and it and to uh hear what's going on I just know that if this wasn't required if it was a a sale between siblings in this we would more than likely something like this would have finally come up somebody as you come along when as Neil was saying that pipe that goes out of your footing drain yeah goes out into the swamp someplace and someone else starts using the the system the house and all of a sudden your neighbor sees foam out in the swamp then someone says gee how'd that get get there and and what this SMS of is that the septic system wasn't working so someone said you know what we can sneak this into the footing drain and get it to go out into the swamp and instead of putting it through our Leaf field and overloading it so we'll it's an old system it is it is old and there are different things and so I just I I was I'm grateful that I was able to zoom in and listen and hear everything that's been going on because I'm not present at the time so yeah and that's I appreciate all of your time and your effort I really do okay and that's one of the benefits of having the zoom session so that yeah how many more people can come and visit yeah right right if you can't be there in person then you can participate otherwise so thank you very much thank you to L thank you all the best now okay thanks thank you bye have a good night you too M that M next one is 539 ammer Thro it's it's close to my heart because I lived there for five years or so and that title five is one that the system was three Allan Allan inspected inspected it and passed it and I had a convers ation with Alan they about the house isn't being occupied and what he found is a reasonably small I'll call it a stival it went in as a FAL and with a then a inance with a 500 gallon dryw after and when he looked into it there was was no water in either tank and the house hasn't been used for a while and the discussion that I had with Allan is you know Allan I happened to know that the reason that this is a a buddy Bristol repair that used to be done in that area and they were all set schol and they would all fail and what they would do is is put the the piping in the in the set poool to turn it into a septic tank and then put a dry well after it and I said you know Allan if you look at it since I'm the one and he he had the paperwork that you'll see I actually the one that took out the firment so the the system failed it backed up into the house and the because the S Pool wasn't working and Buddy bris put the 500 gallon tank and the discussion that I had with them is you know Allan and Allan said you know the code says you can have a a dryw with an overflow I mean a a c with an overflow and the discussion I had with ton is ton if you instead of looking at the fact that it went in as a sucessful it's been converted into a septic tank it's got an inlet T Outlet te going to a a 500 gallon gallon Lea J and I said he said well then it it fits the rules of an overflowing uh cpol and I said cpol don't have Inlet and Outlet baffles it say it's lot in life is it's a leaky septic tank I said it's no different in my view it's no different than an art cement uh septic tank it's leaky and he said well it was it was a SE I said but that's not what it is today it's a septic p and so that was our discussion he said well as far as I can tell it's the best that I won't look at the type and and so that the discussion was you know what what it really is and what the board does with that and my feeling was I did it from I would look at it from the Board of Health my position on the board of health saying oh it it says that that an undersized leaky septic tank that needs to be replaced but so what are you guys what are your thoughts both of your thoughts on that I guess to conceivably you have a conflict of interest on this one no because I have I haven't owned it I I don't make any profit on it it's been whatever 40 years since I've lived there so I don't have a conflict there's nobody in my family that lives there there's no way that that I can have any financial gain from anything that that gets done on this house or LW I have no no Financial or political so so what what did did Al check it off his past he checked it as past oh he did yeah so that's why I'm discussing please you were there what is your SP for you on empty tank I I well both tanks were empty and um he recognized and when they they didn't go in the tank but they took uh a series of some um High powerered lighting and there was no evidence of staining up the wall at all uh that doesn't tell us how many people have been living there lately it may have been one uh one person only uh who was quite elderly I believe but anyway um well said that Allan there were four of us that lived there it's possible that an old lady would go in there and maybe the the fpol would start working as a f pool again well that was that was the question um the um I didn't consider the um analogy that you made um about the Overflow 500 gallon overflow tank but that's a good analogy I wasn't considering that at all the woman who was there trying to represent the last homeowner realized that it hadn't been used and that it was going to need some ential future work in in uh down the road depending on what became of the new owner and the potential discussion at the meeting about whether or not it was going to go on the way it is or need something to be redone to help it survive so in these situations there is hardly as you know there's hardly any backyard there at all right um I don't know if the tank itself appeared to be some type of a homemade even though it looked like it was structurally good um well I thought what it is is a black it's like a BL that okay block with an open botom and a and a concrete top that they put boards across it and scored the concrete on top of the board okay so so in this particular case what what I'm wondering is that when I talked to Allan about it I said given what he looked in and what you guys looked in then maybe you do come to the conclusion is Gee this is a fesal and it was working and then if you look at now what the Board of Health brings to it to say see the the Board of Health witnessed that bank being full the the the death pool being full right I can guarantee you I climbed down I dug the hole and the water was up over the top of the the Inlet so it was it failed and that's the reason and all all of those that have the the 500 gallon lece tanks that are after them all of them had the same problem they failed and then buddy Bristol would to save people money turn the theol into a SE and put the 500 G leak B after it yes so that that is what the history of them is that's how they end up getting there so once you so I know what I witnessed the sailing and okay well and and that then to me becomes data that um was previous unknown you didn't have it to Alan and and to myself but the fact that um as a board member you have witnessed the failure then that changes the determination of whether or not there was any failure criteria right I agreed with alen that that is the case the fact that yeah that you could see the the inlet and Outlet ke still doesn't tell you that you've seen a failure all you can say is the the tank had been modified but it still at that point could still act like a CES but in this particular case that what I'm saying is is that I witnessed it I was the reason that was the reason for the the 500 gallon tankage because it failed and uh yeah and that my belief is in this one we should be saying that that the tank need the cess needs to be play through the 1500 gallon tank and then the the the uh SAS should be reviewed three to six months after rehabitation that that that's what should be the requirement for this one well and and and that makes sense um again given the fact that uh this knowledge was not previously disclosed well that's what I told Alan I said there's no way that you could have you could have known that from what you saw for you know your observations wouldn't let you get to the conclusion very well especially not having having grown up in that area for my you know the better part of my life I know what happened to every one of those that that got in trouble like that so yeah that's my suggestion is is that that's what we take this title five and say that it it needs that the pool needs to be replaced with a 1500 gallon septic tank and the SAS has to be re-evaluated three to six months after rehabitation it's fully yeah and the woman who the woman who was on site whoever it was I don't know if she was a relative or just a friend uh was just they um running information back and forth uh with no idea um what the outcome would be or could be Alan did mention the fact that um there would be further visits by the board but again uh because of the unknown history then that helps the decision uh making change going forward yeah and actually from our standpoint we should probably tell out there's probably still six or eight of them around in that in that neighborhood I think they're almost all been cost now but yeah but so Bill can you go along with that that we just changed that send yeah I'm reading the I just looked at the code would it be straight I know it's tight sneakers here now the groundwater is way down correct yeah that it's probably 30 feet down okay so that's not a non-issue so I guess remove the Cesspool put in a septic tank and again if they want to do it in a gingerly fashion they could probably use a plastic tank there and get away with a plastic tank because buoyancy is not going to be an issue no it's not that's right if they so that might be a a slick way to do it without bringing heavy machinery around yeah it's it's a tough if a it's a tough spot they in fact if you if you remember two or three houses down to the West there was a house that that actually two houses down that they were tucked right against that same bank that that's right yeah because they came before us and they came before conservation a couple of years ago right it was a it was a problem that's trying to get that done right because the soils aren't very they're not very stable soils and they're Clos to the bank right okay so that's what we're going to do on that one k okay but Lee in terms of you going in on on that whole neighborhood if you find any more that have an old set schol converted back to that to the to the septic tank with a a dryw after it you know that that what happened was because the cess pool failed and that it was a way to just do it Bud used to do it deep that was standard modification in that neighborhood back in that time frame that's right that's right okay okay I mean good to know because I I just saw two dry compon um and you would to know there's not a chance in the world that you would know that no no being from area especially having someone a single old person living there and have it vacant for a long time it's the whole thing is just dried out absolutely yeah yeah okay all right good to know thank you we've got we're getting 9:30 we have one more title five one more Title Five and I'm trying to find it shame on you colen I'm looking for I think the darn thing fell off my agenda I think fell off my table here or my house but I'm sitting and I don't even have the agenda anymore so maybe you can tell me what what it is coling uh it was 155 Bernett Street um Robert Norman did the um did the title five and it was a pass that's the old a residence that was that one I have to I have the question that one Lee I didn't see that one but that that system was in a slot that those soils back there were so dark that you can't even see water table in them the the because that on the pitam swamp side or the or the it's on the if if you're driving in from West Street just before you start down the that first Hill this house is the last house on the right and the the system is down in the back and it starts into what in fact there were fruit trees up in there but that was oh yeah we found some we found some Glade soils down there years and years ago I'm guessing that that there was Glade soils here in that spot but I don't know what you guys found with we were up and I don't think I don't think this guy's a a soil evaluator either uh the the system was up on the flat um just off of Bernett road we weren't we weren't down the hill oh yeah yeah there there is a house with the system way up top between the house and the street well there's one if you go down what it's next to the lot that Dakota Richards is building out well that well those if you look at the ones where Dakota Richard is then there's a house right after that kind of a Garrison that system is a big a big fill system where the system's right between the house in the road yep and then where but that's not the little this is not the one I'm talking about is where J off here used to live and and it was the aier house is a little it's a a little tiny house an old old house that's in fact it's got a lot of kids playing stuff in the backyard and a dumpster on the on the other side of it this this system was just off of burnard Road um on the right hand side on you know before the hill before the hill crests and heads down but we were not we were not off the top of the hill heading down into the the house is right on the top of the hill just before it starts down yes and that and that system that soil coming up into that and the as the house is kind of high and the there there was actually there was a garage there and then it drops off and down towards the swamp and the system was down in that swampy area and you thought there was a soil evaluator that actually went in there Lee I don't know if Neil was there or not no I can answer that they they um Bob Stow did a 4 foot hole just to show that the water table wasn't uh it was below the stone so he only went down four feet so he definitely didn't go down far enough to see if you had three foot of Separation yeah well that wasn't that wasn't done right so we that one we someone had to go back and and look at that one so you want to you want a water H water table determination yeah we should we should do that that's what we require oh that's fine and you want I'm I'm assuming you want Lee there to witness for somebody someone from the board to to look at it but I think you're gonna I think if you look in there you're gonna find blade toils okay yeah yeah because the house next door was who was the fellow that used to be the drywall contractor well that sounds further that's Hunter yeah yeah because I remember Hunter's house we poked around there with Bob senior about 35 years ago and we found that's different soils Winnie little was down there she was a school nurse when I was a kid okay but that those systems are right up next to the road but if if you look at at the guy that's just to the south of where where this house is that guy's system is had to go right up on the road and he's got in fact if if you look at at the the Cota Richards that they've got they're putting like eight fet of soil in there right that the water table is is so high right so we'll just have to look and do a soil evaluation okay I'll get that scheduled okay we've got Neil has been waiting for a very very long time and it was and it's not even on our agenda but it's on is it Neil is it 25 25 now we've got Bill and and Lee if if you recall on this house we approved a pump system that was up near near the out from the street let's look at let's call it the front right corner of the property yeah and the new buyer wanteded to put a garage in that area and Neil moved the system and we he moved the system to the West so away from F till Dy towards the Wetland and yeah what he ended up doing is we allowed the system to go within it wasn't 50 feet but let's say within the 50 feet of the Wetland with the SAS it's but but our the last time we talked about this Neil had requested that that we let them use Elgen systems with a a threefoot separation instead of four feet separation and we said now what what happen here is we're we're giving on the the wetlands we don't want to give on on water table separation so Neil ended up putting a design that we approved that's got a a pump with four feet of Separation so Neil is in tonight Neil talk to me today and he is is asking that that we re-evaluate that because the owner who's selling the property doesn't want to send the money to put that system in can I can I hello hello hi hi that's the owner Marlene okay yes if if I could address this Mr Bombadier and the board sure and the board I'm Marlene badell um I own the property here with my husband um Mike Dy he cannot be here he is um has dementia and he would be very disruptive to your board right now so it's just me um I have to sell the house because now I have to look for a facility for him and the it's a real financial hardship as to the plan I'm begging to redesign it this is my second design I need to sell this house it's it I have to do all this by myself it it it it's just so disheartening that I have to do this I've lived here for so long and just love grany but I can't afford it were on on the brink of bankruptcy I asked if the if I could have it mov to where we could afford it and I'm hoping that we can redesign it to where I can afford it um without the pump and I'd be awfully grateful if this could happen I'm just I'm just beside myself with having to think of all this that I don't have my husband here to help me with so I do have a a person here that um I've had for a long time friend of my daughter and she has a um a a uh something that she would like to uh point out to you if I could put her on her name is Jennifer deforge I've known her since she's been eight years old so I really really I had to go to her for guys because I don't know what's going on I just it's such a financial hardship to begin with I have to worry I I I I'm having to sell my car that's that's how how things are going right now so I I just need to get this done and I need to sell this house so I'm going to give this over to Jennifer um and she will hopefully help help out here yeah thank you thanks Marlene um I I do have a little presentation prepared maybe to help us have a better discussion if I could share my screen but in terms of what what are you trying to do help us are you trying to convince us not to have the system go in or are you finances what we really don't need a presentation right right I was just going to show you some um the design details because we definitely need a system here it failed and I'm not disputing that no no no no I don't think the presentation's going to be necessary okay I was actually at the site with Neil in one of my colleagues on the Conservation Commission last week and we kind of chitch about the situation okay and frankly personally I've looked at the situation and I would be in favor of a water table reduction in this in this circumstance that's my that's my personal I'm getting I'm one out of three I'm one bill why don't as I'm I'm looking before we really go at it in terms of what we're what we're gonna allow or not allow what this is being driven from a financial standpoint and right when I asked Neil today if if anybody had gone out and got prices competitive bids and Neil didn't think so and the other is is we're looking at a how that that you're looking at at spending money that's in front of you if you if we're looking at a and I have no idea what the house but just for talking purposes that if if someone's lived in a house that they paid 20,000 $50,000 for 40 years ago and selling the house for $400,000 right now and saying we don't have any money but shortly after you sell the house you're going to have $350,000 to pay for and and with that money I have to I have to put my husband in a facility I have no other money that's why I'm selling the house otherwise I would live here till I died but I can't because I can't take care of him I can't take care of a FS the funds are there to provide a new septic system but a gravity fed septic system with the quotes that we did receive because I've been helping Marlene through this process and working with Neil and um Greg and other folks that I know in the industry um we can make the $31,000 uh gravity system pump that's causing the financial burden over $10,000 to $15,000 extra because of the existing conditions there's an existing screen in porch there's existing Decks that would need to be removed to get the electricity out for the pump system it's not it's not a and if the pump was needed if if it wasn't a gravity fed then of course we wouldn't be here you know waiting three hours to speak to you and plead our case um but but this is a really great uh a very welld designed naturally gravity fed system and I heard you talking you're not an that that you're not the person that makes makes that decision no I'm not but I have talked to professional individuals in the industry such as Neil Jackson who's the engineer design on this um project I've talked to Michael McDow who I know is in the building code related area but we reviewed the code we reviewed the Board of Health regulations and in the Board of Health regulations I couldn't find and you can obviously correct me if I'm wrong but I couldn't find anywhere where it said it was a requirement to have a pump I you know and I don't know where where that piece comes into play with a gravity fed system so I've definitely done my res what happens right now you're really into the engineering part you're not the engineer you're right and and so that it's not a fair thing for us to be dealing with you saying that we have to teach you about pumps and not no no no I don't need to be taught I is headed towards 10 o'clock at night I'd like that bill your your point is one that that we should explore you're you're the guy that the wetlands guy you're you have a a feeling that different it's different than mine my concern is that we've we've given on distance to the Wetland and we're now going down closer so we're we're taking two levels of Environmental Protection and we're not one but we're saying we're going to go two and we're doing this based on money not on protection and now please what are still what is your thinking my thinking dick yeah NE Neil you using an Elgen in drain yes I am okay now just I know our board may not may not um con concur but what is the designed Criterion for water table separation with Elgen inra according to their documentation they they will give up to a two foot reduction and offset the groundwater and just and just for um we're meeting the state requirement of 50 F feet and gry had 100 foot offset to to the bordering vegetated Wetland but again you know the the massachuset code is very very strict to protect to protect the groundw and say so I mean and we're only asking for a one foot reduction not the two that's allowable right and and they do that they're looking at they're not looking at at nitrogen removal they're looking at I believe biological removal and and if you look at 310 CMR the Wetland RS say 50 feet of separation from a BD VW is sufficient for Environmental Protection from the wetlands perspective from the wetlands perspective okay and you meet the 50 Feet Neil correct we do we did that so all right so the talk the talking point is the separation off the groundwater table now do you have a shallow or deep well on the site he has an artisian well you have a deep well okay that that's a plus yeah in the soils I think are GL it's it's a red pan glacial till up there correct yeah and just for clarification every single abing uh dwelling on that street has an artisian well and it's tight fil that's tight soil and it's good filtering soil it filters out contaminants and it provides plenty of detention it's not like it's a porous sand it's a tight soil tight soils work to your benefit in this case yeah and the other thing that is that does go through you B is that that the water that's going through here is probably ending up in that vegetation and it if long as this ends up staying up near the surface right right that that vegetation is going to do a good job on the nitrogen right yeah right you know it's not going directly to a a stream but I know I know go ahead have we done this type of Separation um allowed this type of Separation elsewhere or is this is this the first one M what are you looking for what are you saying for separation right now uh three feet no I'm looking for a three- foot separation Lee we gave we gave three foot separation for this design or similar design we did it at the Big White House the window world's house yeah and we that's right too yeah yeah yeah okay we did it we've already we've already been down this path on West Street we also did it right across from from West Street School we did on a on the same the same situation close to the same situation was it wasn't it wasn't really we weren't uh the one on West Street is close to a wetland they in fact it it touches there's some soil there so it's closer to a wetland the one in on 202 uh not especially close but but we really couldn't fit it in very very well so we have you know if in both of those soils the one on West Street probably isn't as good filtration but but Bill from your standpoint I I know you don't like pumps anyways still so I I know it maybe it's even a little hidden agenda that you have that that you you don't like P so but but if if you look at this thing I certainly see if you go from your standpoint of saying we've done this before you you look at still from your standpoint of saying these soils can tolerate it and even within our own regulation we say that that we can go 50 feet to a wetland rather than 100 on repairs so if you if you look at that and you do without a doubt pH you get rid of a pump and in one case you don't look at I'm trying to avoid saying it's just Cost look at the the grief of owning a pump and maintaining a pump so if you look at the the next person that's going to own this thing terms of what we try to do is to to pass along something to the next owner that's not going to be a problem that we use this as a time to make sure we upgrade did you and and in this case gaining the extra foot of protection especially Bill going in your thoughts especially when the extra foot of protection is Title Five sand which does very very little for no so you if you go to what you're saying bill that you don't end up actually getting very much protection by going the extra foot and definitely if you look at what we're passing on to the next owner definitely having a foot of sand does not give them anywhere near the benefit of not having a pump and the the grief that goes along with a pum it it looks to me like the board would be be doing a consistent by dropping the the foot of separation would be consistent what we're we're doing what we've done before the consistent with trying to provide the filtration to protect the environment and consistent with passing on to the next own A system that that's better from their ownership standpoint that I can I can move away from the standand of the four foot and move to three also is that as a board is that where we are right now Bill and Lee yes that's where I am dick I agree pleas yeah I mean yeah uh all the questions that I had have been answered quite well so we're not setting precedent uh we're doing something that we've done before um so yeah I'm I'm I'm good at at this point Richard um just to add to the meeting I am going to be the next owner of this house so I I know exactly what's going on for the system so we just wanted you know that and and we we much prefer not having to rip up a deck and and having to deal with a a pump system so we greatly appreciate this conversation and so does oh my God that's great I'm glad we could have that's what we're gonna do yeah and Neil are you gonna adjust the design yeah I'll I'll redesign absolutely yep thank you so much thank you from the bottom of my heart thank you it pains me to leave gramby but we're sorry that that's a terrible reason to have to leave we're I'm I'm really sorry that you're having to go through what you're going to be going through thank you so much it it's not easy to have to make all these decisions by myself when I've had my husband for so long to help me I'm sorry and now I have nobody this is why I I I went to Jen to ask for help yeah thank you I'm so glad we could help you guys I'm soy happy thank you so I am very very good good luck on your on your battle yeah thank you thank you and it is a battle yes I can only imagine yes thank you so much thank you have a good night thank you so much thank you thank you again thank you appreciate it bye thanks deck Bill and Lee I appreciate it okay Neil you got your work cut out for you buddy that's okay all right it's a it's a labor of love at this point thank you good sleep tonight we understand what what we're doing now is is there going to be time to to get this whole thing done you can get it done and as compared with with our just approving yeah I'll get I'll get the new plan submitted for the next meeting okay now for the next you as we said on site you do not have to come back to conservation you're you're good okay great thank you y okay and I guess we're going to have to call it quits for tonight huh all right thank you have a great night okay I am going to Pine for the I'll talk to you but I'm gonna be on the cape for the next meeting I I think I can still have it I'll go and I have coverage there I just will move away from our guests and we should if you can try to make it so it's it's not one of the these meetings tonight yeah I'll try productive meeting though dick well done then Lee productive meeting everybody we actually got some we got some stuff covered so just none of them none was an easy thing that that's exactly right no so Colleen just to and I can go over it for the next meeting if you can get everything that I need I won't have any ability to copy anything starting on Saturday so if you can get me whatever you can on Friday okay so I can copy it before I leave oh okay so I'll try to not this Friday the following Friday the following Friday and I'll try to uh email you everything um by Friday let try not to let many people get on the agenda yeah okay okay actually Colleen when is next when's the next meeting is it the second Tuesday of the month yep see I got a conflict anyway dick I won't be there is it really the second Tuesday is that right yeah I think I think when I have interference it usually two months in a row is usually the situation when we have interference and this is the second of the the two months maybe we do we wna what do we want to do for a a meeting do we well if we have a super light agenda if we could push it out either the following week or skip skip a meeting skip a meeting so meet a month from tonight let's try that is gonna be looking for the approval yeah do you wanna do you want to make it that if I that we said that we'll will approve the design with a three-foot separation and just let me review it and and say that Ken can approve it if he if Neil does it if he just changes it to to drop the the one foot yes yes that that works absolutely put that in the minutes for tonight yeah yeah so we'll do that col yeah all right so I'll once Neil gets it we'll have to let Neil know that he can get it to us as soon as he can and we'll get it done I'll get it done and and I'll review it okay and we can all right and then you can issue the I'm supposed to see him tomorrow morning on North Street so I can mention it to him oh in fact I'm gonna come and visit you on that perk that's that's my brother's in-laws I just want to see what kind kind of stuff you're dealing with okay it's uh 8 am I believe yeah 7:30 Neil said so so maybe he's GNA start digging as it turns out the I guess they they did find the the original design so so I just want to take a look at what we see I'm just I am absolutely in Conflict so I'm not involved with just just look at I get you I get it yeah so I'm just curious and I'm will have nothing to do with what happens other than to look understand yep I get it so okay guys good good evening thanks again okay okay okay all right okay good night sleep bye bye