##VIDEO ID:4mZ0_8Q5__o## Craig online yes I'm here great Craig y hi ready Craig can you move left about six inches there we go there we go all right it is 6:31 we're ready to start our meeting with us this evening is Patrick Knight Ben Peters Hill loes myself Michael Gary Mike Roth I believe Kim Dunmore is with us right and is Chris hood here tonight or yes okay all right is there anyone else from City or online tonight no Craig sorry Craig schy yes we just looked is that it for okay all right very good so with that um we'll move to the O open forum and it's if you don't have the agenda in front of you just a little reminder um it's 5 minutes per person with each subject a limit of 10 minutes and we do have some flexibility on that um and there we go is there anyone here for open Forum good evening I'm an Sullivan one of your District Commissioners and uh District 4 as a county commissioner and I'm here this evening in strong support of the borberg project the condominium project is something that's really important to our community and this particular development offers us a really unique chance to address one of the most pressing issues our County faces our long-standing housing shortage for decades we've struggled to provide enough homes for our growing population and this project directly addresses this challenge the bork bird project doesn't just provide more housing but provides the right kind of kind of housing a mix of housing many in our community are seeking this type of development which combines modern living with affordability 25% of those units will be affordable and the inclusion of the affordable units is particularly crucial allowing us to create homes for individuals and families families who otherwise might not be a able to be here in Cook County it also opens up options for older residents like myself and others I've spoken to who are really interested in downsizing and would like to stay in the community they love and make their current homes available to families who need more space in addition to serving our existing Community this project is essential for attracting workers who will fill vital roles at our hospitals our schools our County our city and local businesses we have jobs that need to be field now but without sufficient housing we cannot accommodate the people who want to live and work here and the people that we need by approving this project we're taking a proactive step to strengthen our community for years to come I urge you to support borberg condominium project and help meet the housing needs of our residents today and in the future thank you thanks an all right is there anyone else here this evening for open Forum yes familiar face my third time speaking um as you know I am opposed to it and kind of directly speaking to the housing and the affordability um I did a little research on Boreal for jobs that are uh looking for positions right now that would be able to afford the other 75% of the homes um in addition there are some homes in that price range current ly available and these are family homes with yards and the kind of home you want to be in that have actually experienced price drops um affordable is 250 or less Workforce um is sort of in a lower price rage and unfortunately because the very realistic cost base to produce this unit um I don't know if that affordability will be there my mom's here on a fixed income um living in a home at150 te because that fixed income would not necessarily be do that so there's a good chance these could end up being second homes for people from the cities looking to come here which would continue to our overpopulation in our summer and our very critical underpopulation in the winter um so i' strongly consider to do the math to really see is this going to provide that type of housing for the workforce for what the wages are I a very good wage by Cook County standards my husband does also and we could not afford the other 75% of this um and then I have a map that was not able to scan but really looking at that impact of the local residents that are here our families our place this particular location unique to the other ones as far as how with all the road additions that have to be made um and that particular plot of land uh the math based on how much it's going to impact current residents that live here um I urge you to look at that so and I have a work oblig obligation and also this is really stressful so it is going to be what it is so I'll get the update from my neighbor and so no disrespect but like I'm good I can't can I ask you one favor the sheet that we tried can you just bring it up and we'll just at least pass it around to the council now we can always you know get a copy for everyone to keep later but thanks thank you thank you is there anyone else here for open yes and just please introduce yourself as well thank [Music] you my name is John Hay my wife my wife Mary and I own or we live at 721 West thir street so we own basically a city block of property between 8th Avenue and 7th Avenue on the north side of Third Street um guess I have more questions than comments and I'm not sure they'll be answered but we'll give it a go um I guess I'll start with some comments um from the last meeting which I watched online I'm grateful to have that opportunity it seemed like the consensus was this project couldn't go forward unless improvements were made to Third Street and I don't know if I understand that understood that correctly or not um so a question would be are we by approving this project are we committing to making improv improvements to Third Street um maybe we're not I could have misunderstood that um our house you look out the front window you see Woods you look out the back window you see woods and part of the value to us and I don't know if it adds property value but it's like living in the woods in the middle of the city which we really appreciate and we think future buyers would appreciate that also um so we're not really in favor of improving Third Street um from that perspective because to us it wouldn't seem like an improvement um I understand that the city is free to do that um so I I was thinking about the money aspect um the developer is in this ultimately to make money um to say otherwise from a business perspective doesn't make any sense so they have a certain dollar number they are hoping to make in profit it would be fiscally irresponsible for them to not have taken that into consideration um I'm hoping the city council took a look at what the city can make in property taxes from this particular development um again I hope you did I think it would be fiscally responsible not to look at a project like this and say we're going to get guesstimate $660,000 a year in income tax from these properties and another question I have personally is what is our assessment going to be if third is improved um thousands of dollars tens of thousands of dollars I don't know and you know if it's $20,000 over the course of 20 years that's still $220,000 and guess the bottom line for me I won't speak for my wife is it doesn't seem fair or right if Third Street has to be improved for this project to go forward for us to pay potentially tens of thousands of dollars so the city and the development can make money and so I'm making some assumptions there but I just wanted to put that forward thank you thank you thank Sean is there anyone else who would like to participate in the open Forum all right and with that we'll close our open forum for this evening and move on to there he is the way in the back it's time for our city hall and liquor star [Music] update good afternoon or evening sorry everyone um my name is John heg Miller again I am City or I'm working on the city hall and liquor store project I work for mgov construction and I'm the S site superintendant for the project uh just here to give you a little bit of an update on what has happened in the past week and in what's upcoming in the next few weeks uh today we completed the slab on grade at at the liquor store or liquor store and City Hall uh we pushed it up one day due to the rain that's expected tomorrow uh we completed that today and our next venture is going to be installing the steel structure so uh the Crane's going to be showing up Friday and all of our steel three truck loads will be showing up Monday we'll be unloading that and starting erecting Monday afternoon and Tuesday and that's approximate 2 and a half to 3 weeks for installation uh we're also installing underground drainage around the building we're starting on Broadway and then we're working on First Street also then we're going to try to get some of the parking lot area completed while they're installing the structural steel also uh we're hoping next week depending on weather that we're going to patch Broadway and First Avenue so uh we're trying to get things going as quick as possible before winter comes and hopefully it doesn't come in which I can't cross enough fingers or toes so um again if anyone would like to stop down uh take a sight tour you can actually walk on some hard ground since it's concrete um the city wants us to put to pick a ball court up in the in the uh uh in the city hall since uh it's wide open right now so we'll see what we can do aw again thank you very much for your time and I appreciate it thank all right moving on to the consent agenda does anyone have any questions about bills or the minutes or comments from last time I would make a motion to approve the consent agenda as presented yeah I'll second all right and we'll have a roll call on that uh to approve the consent agenda Craig hi Michael hi William hi Ben I I all right and with that we've approved the consent agenda next up on the agenda is the borberg Pud and preliminary plat and this is a continued discussion from our last meeting I see we have a lot of our key players here in the room um I think we all have questions um the original Hope was that we would be able to have a special meeting between now and this meeting but that Logistics did not work out so um I'm not sure if we all have the same questions or different questions um but I know we do have them and going to think I'd like to start this I went through every agreement and made all my highlights and my comments and read through everything um and I made my own little map so I could sort of understand the layout of L land and property looking at our GS IM maps and where this goes because a lot of this conversation is is obviously for the five of us but it's also for our community at large and with a project like this people hear certain things and maybe they pick it up from certain sources but as always you need to go back to the source and we want this to be an opportunity for the community to understand um how this is really going to work and what are the variables involved in this so um they understand whatever decisions we make and they understand their personal decisions too about how they feel about this project so it's not just for the five of us I want our larger Community to understand um what we're thinking through on this um as well so I'm trying to think the best way to start uh would the four of you be okay if I ask some questions yeah right away absolutely as a way to kind of get this rolling um some of uh and so Jason hail our H director is here and there's there's a couple questions I I'm going to want to ask you in particular and then the rest I think sits with our potential developers and their architect and all of them so um if it would be easier for you to come and sit up front you know one of the things um we found it some of our meetings has been maybe we're missing our video maybe our the the people's uh voice didn't get picked up so I don't want that to be a problem either so if all of you'd like to join the front that would be much appreciated did and since you sat up front first um Oh I thought you were sorry may I thought you were asking if I would come up now yeah I would like all of you to come up right now so it makes a little bit easier to get through this I think and since you sat up front I don't think my questions are in any particular order here but since you first going be the lucky one um go he's the bravest yeah yeah so there is a potential affordability equation to this development of five units and at any moment I say something just go Oh no you're wrong you know stop actually I'd like to St right now okay yeah um so something that we've been very I've been very careful about and when we're talking with the H board been very careful about when we reviewed this project is to use the word affordable gets us in all sorts of trouble I mean it already has there's all sorts of questions about what that means capital A affordable there industry standards for what affordable means when you're talking with the state of Minnesota or HUD so what we've tried to say even in our mission statement the H says to try to create more attainable housing because affordable is so relative and again there are there's a kind of a loaded term so to be clear when we're talking about the five lots and mayor if you read through the agreement there are basically three options either the developer builds five homes and sells them to income qualified households and that's tying to the Minnesota housing impact fund structure that's where we tied it to it's where we got the I don't want to say inspiration but that's where the the the impetus for this structure came from they either build them and sell them to those income qualified households or if that if they don't get the impact funding from the state of Minnesota which I believe last meeting we talked about that that application is in process I think we find out at the end of September if we don't get the funding to make it uh to be able to build them at that level of income qualified household then those lot get conveyed at no cost to the H for us to then do something on those lots or the third option in the agreement is the developer has to repay all of the public assistance from the I and the H Grant so obviously anybody who's done housing developments that are larger than two units uh it's a risky business and uh I can think of one in Deluth Hawk Ridge that the H worked on it took 20 something years to fill the project up so the point here is if the calculus changes if the interest rate changes the developer doesn't deliver those five houses the itery wanted to protect and ensure there was other alternatives to make sure either we get the money to pour back into other projects or we get a chance to build whatever we can build that's more attainable on that on that property so I just want to be clear setting the parameters this isn't a capital A affordable housing project obviously 25% of the lots are trying to accommodate a household that can afford to buy a house at 115% or less and the last thing I'd say is I've heard a lot of of course understand concern questions in the community about what is Affordable mean this isn't affordable the H is purviews to help create housing across the income Spectrum this is one of six projects we're working on so I just want to be clear we are trying I mean we working with three of the currently deeply affordable projects in town as well as we just closed on Hamilton habitat lots to help them build so I just want to make sure the H's mission is clear we're trying to build housing of all types this is one of those efforts and it will not solve our housing crisis and it will not bring all the affordable housing we need it's just one slice of the pie we're trying to bring to the table so the money that potentially could help to buy down the cost of these five units as planned right now will be known by the end of September the application to the Minnesota housing fund the impact fund I believe I believe it's the 23rd will find out of September whether or not the application was successful did you apply for a certain value it's so complicated it costs me $11,500 to have someone write it so what they do my understanding is um we we gave an estimate of all of our things from contractors and then they put it into an equation uh to look at how much would we have to so kind of two parts to it the if if um if somebody if we apply as a developer to have X number of units qualify that's the first step and then if somebody comes in and is making the amount that the HRA would verify two things happen one is when they sell it to us they give us a grant to bring down the price okay so let's say the price was 450,000 they might give us a grant for I don't know 100,000 75,000 to bring the sale price down only for that qualified person then in addition when the qualified person they go we can't afford you know this price they will give a 0% second mortgage with no payments sure for like and I think it get it it goes away you know certain amounts after 10 years and certain mons after 20 years so that's kind of how they work so that's one fund now the other fund for um ITB that's a fixed number right correct so we applied for uh help with the infrastructure of this project and were awarded in I think was March uh 225,000 I believe so there's a lot of numbers in my head today um so that is a fixed amount that we were awarded and the and the HRA is providing some match funds from um American Rescue plan funds that the county provided to the HRA to get that Grant so those are the two sources from the HRA that's the arpa money and then the I money that was already approved and then if we end up with option two in which that goes to the HRA then design or what actually goes on that physical space could be completely different right I mean then we're not staying with that current design or right it just be you do what you could to we would we would want to I mean just for the sake I think of the overall project we would want to try to work within the current parameters but the agreement that we have in place now says that we are able to we are the H has the right to bring whatever housing makes sense for the h at that site now of course to be clear the lots are as you can see the plat the lots are not super wide so there are some limitations on what can reasonably be built and still adhere to setback requirements and such but yes mayor we still have the latitude to decide okay what can we actually get built there um design wise and and the it basically be the H probably applying to similar fund if not the same fund F to try to get uh the housing price or the cost to go down as well there are only so many ways to crack that nut uh the cost to build it is the cost to build it and we have to go other resources to bring that cost down for a lower sale price so we're we're hopeful that the Min Minesota housing will say great here's $400,000 for these houses or whatever whatever the amount is needed and here's you know qualified buyers that the at can help find and secure to get the second mortgages that he was talking about and if I can weigh on the cost of housing the cost of housing is what it is to build but it's also a function of design and our practice has really investigated Over The Last 5 Years how to design houses that are nice that are quality but are also cost controlled and so I would say that Spirit has really animated this project and what we're proposing to build across the board at borberg is um we reasonably expect it to be about as low cost as it it can be without compromising quality there there would be some other options perhaps the H could look at um full volumetric modular or manufactured housing options we haven't been able to make those work in Grand marray in the past um but in terms of siteb Built construction I'm confident that we've done a good job in controlling the cost of construction to the extent that we can so Patrick like I don't think I'm doing this right but I was trying to share my screen okay oh there we go so this is what I had to create today to kind of help myself so the first shot is just coming off the GIS maps and um just to ground everybody the right dead center are the two lots involved in here and the Gray Line running across the bottom is Third Street um right now your project currently has purchased the lot on the left and the lot on the right still is to be purchased because that's another topic of conversation but if I look at this next screen and I just for me in PowerPoint put the number of units that I saw in each space and I hope I've done those correctly but you have four units at the top with with two garages and then you've got the smaller cabins I believe to the right down there and then five more units but this development is split in two so the question at this point is I'm still unclear what section of this would go to the H potentially may it be the uh on the right side the middle five chunk okay that's the those are the lots that are being presently allocated now to be clear the HRA we we want five period if they're intermixed it's not that's okay that's fine and some extent you know HUD would say that's a great thing because you're intermixing different income levels and houses and in the same community be that as a May right now the developers contemplated that middle chunk um because it makes a lot of sense to do all of them at once if you get the funding so they're functional reasons to do that and I'd add to that that a condition of the Minnesota Housing Finance Agency Grant is that we cannot start construction on units that will be funded through the impact fund uh until the fund has been awarded and so we couldn't start anything if if let's say those five units were intermixed we couldn't start anything until that funding has been secured of course and the plan here would be that phase one we get nine units in the ground those are the market rate and then in phase two we bundle the five that are um subsidized by Minnesota Housing Finance Agency because we will know at that point if we have the funds and then pair that with another five market rate and this now my questions are getting a bit Tad out of order but because I have the map up I'm going to stay with it so you said four and five right so I'm assuming those are the ones on the current plat or plot that you own right now are the ones you're talking about right the future potential development is the the plot on the right which has not been purchased yet but also includes potentially the I'm not going to use affordable attainable say that again attainable attainable thank you attainable with it a right okay attainable are on the right and potentially then a future development okay that can I just to be very clear we have a purchase agreement and a specific date where we close on that early next year it's not in negotiation that's all that's all that's all done and and set for for the other half and it's also said that Wally and Sandy will live there as long as they want that's part of part of the capitulation of you know how do you do it and the timing and everything so okay all right let's go back then and I will first of all frame follow on with the question yeah yeah so wait so and they're so the the five on the right the bottom five that's where they're living presently right so it okay just want to be clear so I mean would you would you be able to do any of the work while Wally and Sandy are still living in their home so what we're doing is on so there's I call it the East half which would be the left half and the I'm sorry the West half would be the left half and then the East half is the right half so when we put Utilities in we're doing it all on the side that we have even KN that will eventually spread out to the other other parts so that's that's how we're doing that yeah no that that so I'm talking about the other the so you've got two separate five unit on the Eastern so assuming that Wally and Sandra well maybe this is a strong assumption maybe they want to live there until 100 years that's right and um because they've been in that neighborhood for no not that long but yeah um so assuming they don't want to leave uh that's we may never see these five homes that's that's that's a possibility the nice thing about because Sand's probably going to live a lot longer than me is we will have we will have put all of the major expense into it you know the the the sewer lines like will be behind it and the road so that would be very valuable property down the road that anyone would want to build on because they'd basically be paid for and everything's done I do have a question yeah okay we already have water and sewer in our where our houses um it might have been put in years ago and it probably isn't the accurate way of doing things but we got it we're using it and nothing's been a problem okay so after this other sewer and water goes through behind their house are we going to be forced to hook on to that no no no not at all okay no it's it'll just stay exactly the same okay y well the five will the five units that are going to go when their house goes away are they going to hook into the existing sewer probably from behind yeah we'll we'll see what happens just work it out yeah but this design to go from in behind y yeah okay I think I'll stop sharing my screen then for a moment which I believe I just successfully did y thank you I move on let me look at my next notes and I'm going to go back up kind of where I started so reading all of all through all the different documents and I think I have my final answer here but sometimes I read references to 19 units and sometimes I read references to 21 units is a better that's 19 town homes and then two artist Cottages so it's 21 okay yeah so just wanted to clarify that then the top four units um are are the only with within those four only two of those have garages MH and they and you've aligned those out to the two end units and are these two end units designed for you and your other part business partner yes okay yep yep I one of them sorry Tony I didn't hear that but there will be uh carport options that we haven't designed yet okay um all right this kind of gets to what we've already talked about cuz these are my notes from earlier so bear with me but when I read three your agreement you have a 10-year time frame to I know you said you have a purchase agreement but this agreement in general expires after 10 years and it also which makes totally perfect sense is that you stay very clearly there's no assurances that any of that additional real estate will be developed I mean there you don't have to promise that may Bon which agreement are you referring to sorry this is coming out of the oh sure not you're going to make me go back I cut we we're just trying to figure out which are you talking about the purchase agreement for the East half of the property for yeah it's the whole project you know yeah read it refers I'm assuming unless I'm reading this incorrectly this is the part that I assume is the Declarations that's talking about the the East is that maybe in the HOA documents or something think so okay I bet I bet it is yeah that that would make sense so it's not to do with the closing of the property it's to do with yeah I haven't read the HOA agreement yeah okay somebody want to clarify this then if I'm reading this correctly and interpreting this I I don't have it memorized um that is the HOA document and my understanding is we will we're coordinating that with our developers agreement with the city is that right Mike the HOA will be looked at because it has impacts what the developers agreement has uh it it may but I think it's probably more accurate to say it's part of your application for plan unit development that it's the conditions that you intend to operate the plan development so an HOA you know has limitations as to how and I'm not an expert on on cic but there are certain rules about when you add additional property when it's going to happen all that and I'm guessing that that's what that is is dealing with to a 10-year time frame too construction has to be completed within that time frame otherwise no new building will occur is that the idea I think so yeah because then it's they don't have to unless they agree to it yeah makes sense okay so am I interpreting this though correctly that there is no oblig for the purchase of the East lot and the current agreement expires after your current to add additional real estate to the common interest Community shall expire 10 years after the date of recording this declaration there are no assurances that any part of the additional real estate will be added to the property the order in which it will be added the time it will be added the number of parcels or units per phase nor the size of the units or Parcels I think address I can guess that's kind of standard language but I I think it is but but two things one there is an agreement to purchase the property so if I purchase the property and after 10 years I don't add that corner into it then it's property it's just not part of the HOA document but I still own it um and and could always go back to the HOA and say hey I don't know I usually most HOAs um that's a pretty long stretch they don't go much longer than that to add additional property so okay good point I don't so to to go back to my question then so you're going to close on the the the eastern half and right around the first of the year something like that right after the first of the year you're going you can and once you own that Wally and sander can stay in their home but you're still going to be constructing units on that behind their place not right not where they are yeah so the and that's something we are working with Tony and Wally and Sandy so that it is happy for them but but you've got to excav I mean yeah I mean I mean you're going to take every tree out of their yard for sure while they're living there is that no especially not in the front yard okay so he proper apple trees the Bears there are a couple nice ones in the front so so in the back where the road goes across okay so the the the that road will go in because it needs to go in water and sewer will just be stubbed off of that it won't go away into where the lots are on their house there are actually very few trees in that that specific area where it's going through I think the one visual that you had in the the first one maybe shows some of the true coverage very little yeah that's that's true yeah in where the five are that we hope to use for Minnesota H and finan that's an pretty much an open area in there apologize for stalling out here um I realized I was looking at this week's version and not mine with the highlights and the comments typed in like so those are the five so where where the where the home where they live in right now that's the five that you're going to that we're going to build the uh the attainable hous right above the middle section okay so to just clarify that W and standy can remain in their existing home concurrent with the construction of the five income qualified units right there up above that make sense it does y okay and one other one other thing too is there's quite a bit of space between Wally and sy's existing and where the East West plat Road will be if you overlay the existing improvements on the property with the new improvements there's a pretty good buffer there what does that what what does that mean like what's a pretty good well when you're saying you're um cuz it looks like that Road 50 ft probably it's way up by like their between their shed in their quanset Hut is where the East West Road Road's going to go okay I mean I it's messy but if you want to see what it looks like on paper I can show you no you've got one there that kind of shows where the houses are yeah it's the preliminary plat but I left the existing or I overlaid the existing built structures on the property on it so you could see where they were at in relation to the new Improvement that should be in it was in one of the I don't know if there's an actual there might just be an aerial of that or something from Ben possibly Benjamin a previous I think the clearing and grubbing the map is the best one to see that on you can see the existing structures there and the road lines up pretty much with the South edge of the garage on the west side of 7th Avenue so I go off the property there's a garage that you can see the edge of that's where the road's going to go so all that space between the house which is actually pretty close to Third Street and in the garages what are you're talking about yeah 50 ft maybe okay that question we answered um I also had a question reading within their several comments about parking units and it would a and average is my word but one and a half parking spots per unit each one gets their own one dedicated so to get those other that half piece are those evenly distributed among each yeah so bit of development yeah so the parking areas will have everybody will have a designated for one car and then there's a bunch of other ones that are not designated for you know unit four or whatever and also you probably know that we have eliminated the adus from our plan thanks to the radio I did too yeah okay um so we have uh and that has that has added uh some additional parking spots because there had to be one for those each one if we had them open opened up some additional parking spots we haven't changed the number of parking spots we reduced the number of dwelling units therefore more parking spots per unit yeah my thought was just make sure those extra ones evenly distribute yeah yeah there people want it that way yeah and I don't know exactly so the HOA when we I think the HOA has the right to say okay here's where you park and obviously each place will want to have somewhere as close to their unit as they can and then the other ones will be spread out okay um can I ask um I wasn't at the last meeting I apologize for that but what um the the I know we talked about the 8 's possibly not fitting in um I did have a thought and I wanted to kind of challenge the city council with with that um I guess depending on how you're viewing the Adu if it's you know if if this is a family overflow for the people that are living there or if it becomes a rental but here's what I would say while we can't control who buys these homes you can be pretty certain that whoever is going to be renting those adus is going to be local mhm and um so I just wanted to plant that okay Association I mean I yeah um all right in all of this that gave me a chance to find out where I copied and paste my so it's section 12 rights to add additional real estate coming off of your um your development agreement right your logos on it I don't know the exact titling but uh page just go search for it again uh document page 35 at least that was the last one given to us I know you guys changed some things so maybe that's and that's the page interview document not within our p PF so but that's where I pulled that from um Al home one of the topics that came up and I don't remember that we really talked about this last time we may have touched on it we certainly had conversation about this with the development of um oh yeah scogan y um and that is for your HOA are you doing any prefunding of your agreement and if we asked you this last time that's okay I mean typically on the H I've done there there always is um and especially with um well we will have to put something in it okay but um typically when someone buys a place there's an initial deposit that gives it some cash in it and then it goes to a monthly and if it's a vacant lot usually it's an assessment that's lower than if there's a whole unit for the Norris googan we negotiated that as a part of the development agreement so I'd imagine that conversation happening when we negotiate a development agreement and I think the the character of this is different than the Norris googan in the sense that those are really trying to get as cheap as possible to build and aiming for a much lower price point where it's more realistic perhaps to expect the owners here to be able to self fund a the fund of the whatever they need for this I question that comment if we're having a mix of price points and ability to be in these homes why are we assuming that we have a group that can is better able to do that if we're looking at people with a variety of incomes I don't have an answer to that that they probably will be all the same um you know cuz and the other thing is our our association is not going to be doing um home exteriors we're not escrowing for that which is very expensive you know you got escro for a roof and 30 years you got to Escrow for Windows you got you know so we very minimal things that HOA primarily is going to be uh doing snow removal uh some pond maintenance uh uh a minimal yard maintenance because there aren't going to be you know big yards uh and then there's typically a liability insurance that the HOA would have um for it so it's uh you're missing a big one though John utility infrastructure yeah yeah streets and utilities yeah well oh the cost in no maintenance we have to yeah right we because we have to maintain all of that yep okay does anyone have any other questions on that part of it nope okay we went through affordability uh one of the pieces that I believe the Planning Commission brought up as a topic but I don't know that completely and that gets back to 6th Street and um or 6th Avenue right so let me share Indiana Street yes Indiana Street which surprised to find out 120 years ago when they made the plat yeah you at the old 1900s plat and all of them have names they don't have street numbers so that's where that is so that's technically what the street is called as the underling plat that's kind of fun and you should see the plat in the courthouse they have the original one and it's handdrawn and it's hard to see some of the lot dimensions and it's encased in Plastics you can see it you got it's pretty amazing requires a magnifying glass that many times and translating Auto read writing from 1878 or whenever it was done so so I sharing my screen again and I still don't know if this is visible very well but there has been conversation and not in terms necessarily of your project but at abroad level is is it time for the city to get more involved in building out infrastructure so we can build out our homes in residents for the community so talking about the conversation we had about six about like where it would end and then would somebody want to then build beyond that is that just talked about that yeah just at a really high level we've talked about a you know at what point because the city has not done a lot with that you know do we need to start thinking about that not necessarily in terms of any projects so just to set the stage I think that's a a topic that the council is well aware of so now if we bring it back to this particular project and if I look to the east of so on six of the the two lots there are four Lots there um with no utility some are owned by the same people who own the lot one more to the right that are on Fifth but there's possibility for development there and I don't know how much above that but part of it is when we do something like this now and even though this is being done privately you know are we missing an opportunity to put in utilities there on six that might help development Beyond this I mean when when the city needs to think about development of utilities to help encourage homes are we thinking about this wisely and getting the most bank for a buck even though you are privately developing is this still the best choice to do that to help that and of course the other piece to all of this is this is like a lot of rock and the lot below there could or the land below there kind of a mirror image as far as layout and rock but there is lots down there that could potentially be developed and either way I think we're looking at needing to have improvements to streets potentially infrastructure so once again I'm sort of thinking bigger than just your development but is this a good way to proceed for the city to be more thoughtful in how we can get more hous because when you um look at this um there's 21 units 19 are available two of them will be small cabins five of them are still in unknown as to what will potentially be built there because there's potential they won't be developed as planned right now so are are we weighing the best if if the community says we need more housing and we need it for a variety of people you know are we accomplishing that and maybe that's bigger than your project but I that entrance in how I view this so does the council have any other thoughts or questions on that well I I would definitely support the you know looking at how you know should should we be running utilities you know through public space like that I I think I think I would say we should if possible Right like um along sixth or or along third or whatever U because is um we should try to serve as much of the community as possible with with utility service like that's what we should do um when you have a developer that's going to come in and he's going to have to run it in here regardless um it seems like putting that in a in a public roadway or makes sense to me a lot open space on six can I make a comment Tracy sure okay so um uh part of what we we so one of my concerns is I don't want to come in and build something and make all the neighbors pay for something that they don't want okay so I don't support the widening of Third Street I will agree to some costs and we we have a proposal to do some of that yeah as a as a start to it okay um if I look at the the drawing that you have up there and if you you look on 6th Avenue um at the top up on Fourth Street you have Carlson's and they do not want to be assessed for waterers or going up 6th Avenue they're looking at coming in from 7th Avenue if they if they get to it and then you have that stretch I'm sorry your last name is a h h y yeah hey and you know they're concerned about all sorts of assessments the guy there's a garage up on 6th Avenue I talked to him he's only planning on using it for a garage so I mean I can see you know at Third Street maybe but when you go up 6th Avenue that's a that's you know that's Birch Mountain it it's not really a I think you're talking about seventh seventh I'm sorry yeah seventh yeah seventh okay so so that is uh you know um I I mean I think there I think you know looking at you know third third maybe you know where we're going to go halfway down in the street and then cut up so you're going to have that part there part of that's already dug out and then we're going to go you know up the middle but I mean one of the concerns I have is there are land owners right there that I don't think want to have a big assessment because they don't really need it right now they all have water and SE stuff and I don't haven't heard of any big plans um other than maybe you know Third Street eventually it looks like they're might be something happening there um and we'll have between Sixth and 7th Avenue we'll have already half of that in you know so we and we'll be paying for that so they want to go farther it's a I mean it's a contribution to go I think in the direction of providing some utilities I'd also add on the issue of sixth specifically um there's a part of this drawing that really key it's very faint but it's key and that's the topography lines and I think there's a reason sixth has never been improved it's because it would be very difficult to put a city street through it so our plan is to bring that City street in a third of the way or half the way where where it's still flat and then there's really no scaling that hill and so it would be possible to tee off utilities from you know an improved sixth that's a third of the way up the block I think you're talking about seventh too uh I'm actually talking yeah sixth the Topography is quite steep even as it comes across that upper northeast corner who's running the cursor there yep yeah I've got the topography map it actually looks pretty pretty nice above where you're building it on six and pretty steep at the bottom seventh is very different it seven it's very steep at the top all right my mistake so it's yeah it's just like a we we have to be conscious of the three-dimensionality of the plat rather than strictly a 2d version of it okay so staying on that same topic of Third Street um couple things have come to my you know attention or are broaden the way I think about this and I think part of this started with our street or our Highway 61 project the other year when we had to divert traffic and commonly they were going up 8th Street and then if you want to start heading East into town um it put a lot more people on Eighth but I think a lot more people also discovered Third Street as a way to keep heading east otherwise they were going to be up to um County Road 7 and then we all know that you can't really access from there East again until you're down on First Street right and we have some issues with Second Street access that probably aren't insurmountable but um to me I think we've changed people's patterns of movement um we also see and I see that in my own neighborhood we have a lot more people out and about walking walking dogs that's all great and part of it reason it's great is we have really wide streets and I feel like the amount of traffic we have in the width of our streets it's you can feel pretty good about walking on our streets however there street is not a well-developed street it can't get take two-way traffic um I think already it may have issues before we even talk about development whether it be yours or anyone else's that means that Third Street does need some attention unless we can come up with other options or even are willing to that might um gain our residents you know more access back and forth than other streets did I say that very well just you know I'm on eth or somewhere in the west of town how do I get across well I'm doing it first here up on third or on County Road 7 MH um so is is it more of a question of width you think at this point for safety like it's everything it's funneling a lot of traffic pardon me said it's funneling a lot of traffic is what it is funneling more traffic I I that's you know and that's my my making assumption that we have sort of enlightened people to another way around because of the highway 61 project I'm not you there's no facts to that but um and the people living there have already noticed more traffic so I would not feel comfortable leaving Third Street as is and I said that last time it's not that I don't like it the way it is and would I prefer it to be like it is you bet I would but putting on my counselor hat no I don't feel right about that at at all I don't think that's the way to approach that so um I don't know if other council members have thought on that and I'm not saying that's your responsibility either I think that becomes part of a city conversation but assessments well I mean we have the job of having to plan you know and and we we've done a lot of work on ordinance we've done a lot of work on different zones and different uses we did uh extensive work on some of the um the free things that we can do and now um but if you really want to support the infill which we do because it's cost effective and it's appropriate well you still have to support it with infrastructure like we have to do that um and I know nobody wants to to pay more money for those improvements but it's it's what we have to it's what we have to do we can't we can't allow Third Street to be 12T feet wide and accommodate another 30 Vehicles you know daily twice a day like it's it's not that's not a good idea so um it it definitely needs to be remedied yeah for sure I would agree with that yeah we do need to do something so what we included for you to look at is a compromise that doesn't preclude continuing the conversation the way you're having it right now but does try to separate the issue of what's the responsibility of this development versus what is the city's responsibility and so what we looked at was for that section of Third Street that's between the two proposed driveways anyway that include widening that section so that it's the same width as the driveways at least and have that be a part of the development responsibility and then if we want to continue the conversation about Third Street and widening it for City purposes that are separate from the developer's responsibility we can do that yeah I would assume that you would plan that out though all in one you wouldn't have them do their little spot and then we do something else I mean it has to be developed and designed all at the same time I if you want to move forward with it I think we can make that happen um cuz it's not like we can let part of it just sit it's not a street that right now handles two-way traffic right yeah so it needs a plan however it's assessed yes yeah it's still can you hear me yep yeah yeah or you know I don't know if we ever got a map for a drawing of that I never did in my email prior to the meeting but um I'm concerned if we build out part of that Third Street going towards sixth are you going to actually be the same width then as that street goes towards the gunin trail you matching up with the curbing that's in that street at that corner is it going to be curbing gutter is it going to handle extra runoff um stuff like that and then as you go towards seventh um it I'm assuming then it'll just end at the one way is that the access or the exit of your property it's the entrance that' be the entrance okay so then it would end there and then we' end up with what we currently have between 7th and 8th that what is currently there right now is what I'm assuming right the drawing in the packet is on page 31 if you are clicking on the one we've got posted on our website and it does include the well wasn't it wasn't in my pocket that I got so I'm that got that came later but anyway I understand the explanation that you gave and I I do understand that but I just think you know what really makes this a hard harder for traffic and Mobility is the fact that you have seventh and sixth streets going nowhere the dead end and you're the only access regress and access to this property is off of Third Street um that's that's what I think a lot of people are looking at and the fact that they're looking at1 homes being built with that limited access um that's why at the last meeting I said hey we got to fix up Third Street and I didn't I didn't I wasn't I wasn't n thinking along the lines of fixing up part of Third Street I was thinking along the lines of Third Street needs to be fixed up if we're going to accomodate this kind of traffic now I understand assessments and I understand all those things and The Rock and the you know all the stuff that's in there and it hasn't been fixed up because of all those reasons um we know that so um that's the question one of the questions I have I have many other ones here when Tracy's done with her part of it but as far as the streets are concerned that was one of my uh concerns um about traffic movement and then you know having City Water Utilities um going into the property that I do understand the developer is paying for then that'll be his responsibility in his City water sewer but then I started thinking about Lots on the left side of 6 Street that could probably use City water sewer um of course that'd be I respon responsibility if we wanted to bring it into them or their responsibility if they wanted to bring it off a third but I I was just looking at you know we have these pockets of land all over town in certain areas and if we're going to develop these pockets of land it would be nice to make it so that they can be developed um you know everybody has access to utilities if we're going to be doing stuff something like this and so I guess I you know I understand this is a project that the developers paying for the sewer water he's bringing in there and all that kind of stuff but there's other surrounding land there that could benefit from a project like this if it's laid out and the infrastructure is thought about which I think in a way I think we kind of dropped the ball on infrastructure on this this thing as it started out that's that's my opinion right now anyway on the infrastructure part of it um uh I do have one more question I want to clarify something your Lots uh the the 25% Lots you did say at one time they're going to be in the front and now they're going to be in the back I'd assume they're going to be in the back is that correct the upper portion councilor the the five Lots uh well 25% of whatever lots are finished that's how the H agreement is to be clear it's 25% of any finished Lots will be a behind Sandy and Wally's house right okay I was just clarifying that because at the last meeting you said they have you have three years to develop and build those lots or you lose that money and they they they can't be in the front because you may not be building in the front within 3 years it's hard to say all that correct those five have always been planned to be behind wall andan second second phase so I have questions about the first phase second phase I also have questions about um conditional use permit granting for land that you don't own um I don't know the legal portions of that but I I know you own part of the land but you don't own all the land and I'm assuming this condition use per this conditional use permit is for the whole phase both phases that's a question that somebody can answer I guess if they want to but um anyway sorry to interrupt here Tracy but I just wanted to get a couple of things out there I have few more here but that's the two that I have right now do you well let's get an answer before the question is lost right the conditional use permit question is that the one we're answering the conditional yeah we're we're approving a conditional use permit but I'm a little confused on who owns the land right now yeah the the West half is owned by the developer the easta is owned by the erson there's a purchase agreement they'll be closing in a few months uh it's so we we can gr uh yes we can we can grant it um and they've signed it we can grant we can grant a perion use permit for something that somebody doesn't own yes and have done that uh variances then condition additional use permits it's not uncommon for a purchaser to make an application with a purchase agreement before they close and not invest in purchasing the property without knowing that they have permission to do it in this case they actually have invested quite a bit already they're they're further in than than some of them that we've granted uh I'd say if they don't if they don't buy the land if the project doesn't go to phase two then what happens to that conditional use permit or how what is there a time timeline on that condition use permit you're Grant if you were to Grant this conditional use permit it's permanent uh but it's specific it's specific for this proposal that they've showed you so okay uh if there's something about that timeline that you want to have a condition included in the permit you could do that uh for some reason it didn't close but I just don't think there's any need for it uh it's it's not real uncommon for a plat like this to come forward with the different with the additional real estate as part of it you're proving the build out of the whole thing with your conditional use permit the final plat will come in and show the other phases additional real estate when the next final plat of that additional real estate comes in as long as it meets all the conditions of the conditional use permit and isn't asking for anything in addition to that then that would be where that part of the plat comes in you know so ultimately this would probably be coming in in three phases the the West half the area where the five units is laid off and then the third one would be the Wally and Sandy one when that one comes around right and they're all labeled as additional real estate on the first plat final plat that comes in um okay one one more question and then switch it over to you Craig so you know I've yet to hear well I have actually once tonight but price points on this um everyone has a different vision of what they you know I hear a variety of voices saying what what this potentially means um for housing but price estimates do matter and the closest I can come is looking at your one roof model homes and knowing about what they are would be priced at and they are done without all the need of infrast structure cost and buildout that's just the home so what is your estimate in today's dollars of the cost of these or what will you what do you you know you you you've got to make all the numbers works you have to have some idea of what you might be able to ask for these if if I can um take the first crack at the um and Jason back me up here if I say something wrong um uh on the issue of attainability or some call it affordability affordability being a technical term a second I'm going to back you up I don't mean to interrupt I'm not interested in that I just want to know what's the market price of these that's my real question what do you for the 15 market rate yeah what's the market rate on on something if this if you were about to tell me as an interested purchaser what what the price might end up being when you do all this I I don't think I can speak to the market rate units I could just speak to what we're limited limited to a certain price that we could list the cost controlled ones for right so it's a formula and we'd have to calculate it out um I'll defer to my team for what a market rate unit would list for I don't know what it's going to be I can tell you that it's very difficult to get a contractor up here um we do have our infrastructure contractor um and his bid came in he had two days to do it um because there weren't going to be any other ones so it will be coming down his bid was like a million and half dollars we hope to get it down to under a million with when he understands what's happening um on housing um $300 a square foot per floor for a townhouse like that is kind of you know these are 1,00 1,50 square ft so you I mean if you uh if you take 300,000 and 100,000 then you got to add there there are other things in there you're at $400,000 and probably higher than that but I don't I don't know for sure for the market rate ones I can tell you that there are people including local people here who work in town who are very interested in doing that because they want to live in a place that they don't have to do the snow shoveling they want to sell their house they want to be around and they're they're game to do it we have people that are are willing to buy and and so just the mechanics of that how that goes because you never know everybody wants to know everything before anything's done you know it all cost a lot of money is when somebody says yeah I'd like to buy one of those um they put down a deposit a reservation deposit that they can get back at any time they want and then when we have the exact numbers and we have a time frame we say this is it and we go do you want to go ahead or not you know you can get your money back and that's when the decision is there unfortunately it's impossible if it was Minneapolis I would have had numbers a year ago grammar a forget it it's very very very we're using Max wallers and he's getting he's working on all of the subcontracts and I've seen some of the numbers and and you know I hope to have that soon um that's really important for us we hope to have constructions numbers in a couple weeks because fall is coming um so I wish I could tell you this is the price I don't know I can tell you that it's going to be more than 400,000 how much more I don't know okay and I yeah I'd like to reiterate Max is working on numbers as we speak and Max may be the eighth or 10th contractor that we uh solicited bids from okay I I I I know you can't give me a a set price but I think you understand we're going with this question we have a lot of people in our community certainly are interested in this for a variety of very good reasons but I'm still not really clear they understand nor do we what the actual cost will this to be because we know already for you to put in this infrastructure is going to be very expensive right and I you know so we also know that you're not going to be able to touch a house for probably 3 50 and that's just the house right I'm I'm assuming I'm not too far off on that so then you add the added cost of infrastructure I would assume these would be expensive and I just want I don't expect you to you know tell me this is what it is and you obviously will get your numbers put together but I still would like the rest of our community to have a little bit better idea of what this might mean and we've already you know this is the first time we've had really any major development project projects and we're already watching other developments going through a lot of struggle when they finally have to put their numbers together it kind of and you're kind of indirectly saying this now to get to realize just how expensive it is to put projects in the ground up here and it and it's not just that things cost a lot of money but it is just hard in rocks and water you know do I need to say anything more um and we're just learning that and it's being reinforced all the time so I just kind of want to bring that out a bit for our larger Community what does it really mean to be able to have something like this what can you expect it to realistically cost and get some clarity to help them get in the ballpark of what it would mean thank you if I can add one thing to that we are we greatly appreciate your statement on that because I think sometimes people don't realize what the costs of construction are period particularly in a remote place at the end of the Earth like Grand marray and uh those things that make it remote also make it very special and um we just don't see a lot of construction happening because of those impediments right and so we're working hard to do whatever we can to to work within limited means um to to bring projects about within those constraints sure so can I add one thing on that um here's the kind of the conundrum is uh you talk to a contractor and he'll say yeah uh I I'm kind of doing all the building myself you well do you have Carpenters no how come you don't have Carpenters they don't have housing how come they don't have housing there's no Carpenters to build the housing so as as you and that's very real I mean it's very real but as you begin to add other components of housing such as rental housing uh Workforce housing hopefully some of those things where you have more Workforce housing housing that Carpenters could live in and so on like that hopefully some of that will level out or or you know make more sense um mayor Benson can I add one quick and then I'll we'll be done talking um this is my preaching all day about this topic so I'll be really brief just to just to Case in point folks are aware of the Birchwood Apartment project um and we've been really fortunate to have uh Wonder community housing partnering with us to their taking the lead in redeveloping that that project the point I wanted to make is that's a rehab project of existing structure and they received an award for Minnesota housing and it's costing $435,000 per unit to rehab the project in garray so I I have talked to my state colleagues about this and trying to really ring the bell like this is not sustainable or acceptable like we have to figure this out this is ridiculous but I just wanted to Case in point one of the big problems we have and I'll speak for the h is anytime we want to get something that is quote unquote affordable the money has to come from somewhere like and if if it's $300 a square foot not including the Land Development and the infrastructure Etc you get to 400,000 really quick and if the and I think the the gal who spoke first this evening made the point according to our incomes median incomes in Cook County the right price is between 250 and 275 for sort of an entry level product so I just want to reiterate to your point mayor the math is really really really difficult and if you're talking about $150,000 of free money from somewhere per house you can see how difficult and how quickly that cost adds up MH well I think this also indirectly speaks to who's the target market for this um without having to say much more the subsidized units how long are how long do they remain subsidized I mean is that the first homeowner is that the third homeowner is that 10 years from now is that they're going to turn and flip it in six months so uh councel that's what uh John was speaking to with reget Minnesota housing's second mortgage so it's that it's a tool that they use to ensure that somebody's not going in who's income qualified to your point buying it and then 6 months later saying I think I'd like some equity and selling the house so that mortgage sits there quietly for a certain duration and then at some point I think it's 10 or 15 years like there's incrementally it's forgiven and then at some point it goes away but the mechanism there is if it doesn't go away like in other words if they sell it in five years and they get a huge windfall or something Minnesota housing gets to recoup some of those costs and you'd have to ask the developer had to apply for that it wasn't an H application but Minnesota housing does that very intentionally to preclude that from happening same thing that we're doing with Hamilton habitat and other projects like Community Land Trust houses same concept the nice thing about this is uh the people will own the houses and they don't have to sell it back to a nonprofit they can sell to whoever they want um but they the the second mortgage thing which really doesn't cost allows them to kind of build up some equity and and they probably are getting Instant Equity so they can't just flip it right away does that make sense because of the second word okay yeah um okay those are the notes I wrote down um since Craig Craig had questions I guess I'm going to turn it over to Craig and then we'll go around does that sound okay sounds good all right yeah I have some uh we still have to approve a final plat approval correct yep right yes yep in a development agreement yes okay after this that still has to come along okay yes okay um I think that earlier in the meeting tonight um when Mr ptis was talking about um making application for one of the loans or grants I think you said that you had to have an estimate of the project so you must have some kind of dollar figure that these units are going to be sold at um the the the numb that I gave you earlier the 300 roughly yeah so that's kind of the square yeah the square foot numbers plus the infrastructure and the land cost all those things yeah which is okay I did that so I'm I'm glad that um you know like what Tracy was expounding on is the fact that you know we housing in Gray for all I guess all income levels you know not just the person looking to retire and move up to grammar for a couple weekends out of every summer because we have a lot of that right now and that's what's blowing up our housing market but um and I understand some of these units five of them will be at a reduced cost which we really don't know exactly how what that number is going to be we know how it's formulated and how it's formed um I don't know I I have you know it's it's a development in the neighborhood that um I think we're trying to we're actually now observing what our zoning ordinances creates um when we start filling in some of these voided areas within our community and I think that we're kind of you know in a in a little bit of a way here we got the part ahead of horse because we're spending a lot of time talking about infrastructure stuff that we have to fix to make this work and I don't know if we're going to get through what we need to really do or what we want to expose ourselves to as far as the city's concerned with expenses and how that impacts other land owners I think there's only like five other land owners along Third Street that if we did do assessments along there it would really impact some of those people greatly um I don't know how much it would improve their property but it would impact them with assessments more that more so than just going down a normal block of houses um those are my concerns um if we get creative and fix up Third Street all the way to eth and sixth um I would be I would feel a little better about this instead of just putting a Band-Aid on part of the block and then leaving the Western block uh the way it is right now um it's not going to be able to handle the traffic and the the the the motor vehicle movement as effectively as as it is now because there's no really demand to have to do that right now that's why that Street's never been fixed up it's never been a need to fix it up until now so that's one of my big concerns the other big concern I have is um you know everybody always says we want this we want that but then if it's in your backyard then they don't want it and I've heard a lot of that uh the last meeting the last couple meetings and I just think that as a developer you would want to go shake the hands of all your neighbors and talk to him about something like this before you start bringing something forward because it raises a lot of questions um a lot of people are concerned about home values they're concerned about traffic they're concerned about visibility they're concerned about um environmental concerns about removing all the brush and the trees and um runoff concerns I know we're already pushing runoff concerns right now because we're having part of that back trench area that's getting filled in right now by a couple of homeowners and that's pushing the water further down towards Third Street so those are some concerns I have that are environmental anyway um I don't know how those are going to be handled other than I do see you have placement of a couple of ponds on the property hopefully the drainage is calculated correctly and how it's going to run those are my concerns on that can we talk about that Craig for a second yeah I think that's a really important point that the the method that's being used right now to ask permission for this development requires a devel Vel ER to hire an engineer to do a storm water study as a part of our development agreement we're going to require the city engineer to look at his Engineers numbers and calculations we've we've seen that happen now multiple times in projects in the city uh so we will have a storm water management plan it will require that it meets all the state standards uh it will not put more water off the site than is currently being put off the site uh if we don't go through a process like this where they're asking special permission to do a project that's not going to happen if if the developer does with the goes with the bill let's build sixth and seventh Avenues and put single family lots in this block there won't be a storm water management plan there won't be anyone looking at the runoff numbers there there won't be any ponds to slow that water down we don't have any ordinances that require it the state doesn't have any rules that require it when the doing one lot at a time so it's really one of the benefits that we get from having a single developer looking at this property is that we do have some ability to deal with storm water okay well I just think back when we did that business part um we had some problems with some engineering on the storm water and I think we got into a lawsuit with that um can't remember the construct company but it did wash out that River and it put a lot of extra water into a person's house on Lake Superior actually so that's what brought that to my mind thinking about you get that one in 100e 4 in rain in 25 minutes where's it going to where's it going to go when we put in more black top and more houses more roofs more run off possibilities you know that was a 6 in R for that storm that happened during construction uh the last the lawsuit wasn't about the engineering design it was about the contractor's performance and actually doing the things that the stormw water management plan required wasn't done right now durru okay um I guess that's you [Applause] know there's a lot more questions that'll be answered as time goes on here but that's some of the questions that I had um with the traffic and also the the negative comments from people living in the neighborhood so those are those those do weigh on people that are sitting the city hat on they weigh on me anyway so that's one thing that I think about um I know not all the comments are negative there are some positive comments and I know I do know that housing is important to this community um but um it's like sitting here constantly always hearing about we need affordable housing affordable housing and it's like Jason Hae you must pull your hair out at night because Grand marray it's hard it's hard to build affordable housing I don't know what that is you know it's just a it's a crazy thing um the way things are right now maybe they'll adjust and turn around but we don't know what it cost to build up here and uh um you know this is isn't in my opinion this really isn't housing for guys that are carpenters or workers those kind of thing and I'm not trying to say that that's what you got to build I'm just saying this fits for a certain clientele and it'll probably feel the void for that um there's other voids we have to also fill which we are working on and doing right now another project in town that's a big apartment building but um it's like I said it's like Jason said it's a piece of the pie uh but I'm concerned about um the infrastructure part of it the road the street access and moving around with the traffic that's my my concern I'll just leave it at that see if anybody else has any more to add okay thank you thanks Craig uh Ben I'll start in your direction did you have anything else I don't think so I think you guys have have done a good job of uh bringing it all bringing it all up to the top that your head yeah how it's about okay y so if sixth and seventh streets are extended north of third are those going to remain city streets MH well well are you talking about this development proposal or are you talking about the hypothetical I'm probably looking forward a couple pages to the hypothetical okay so if if this didn't exist and we were the city of its own uh forces went to uh build sixth Avenues and 7th Avenues and thir Street widen the street put in utilities make this land developable then it would remain Public public streets Public Utilities publicly maintained uh there would be assessments against those benefiting properties and our numbers aren't going to be less than their numbers probably be more um certainly more per unit because we're not going to get the density in going with even 5,000 foot lots to build the roads up and down there particularly because a lot of this is already developed you know there's there's I think there's three other property owners on Third Street I think each of those block faces just has really one owner and of those uh half of it's already developed as as single family homes so they're really not going to benefit from the utilities unless you start looking at density like this and that's an option we can do that uh it's it's going to be uh expensive and I don't I mean for me anyway when I was hearing the comments of the Planning Commission hearing some of the neighbors that had those lots that might potentially be able to develop on 6th in particular I I couldn't tell whether they were in favor of it or not um I'm guessing though if they were looking at $150,000 assessment that probably not real excited about it well it it costs no matter who it it's there I mean it you're going to whether it's privately developed or public developed the cost Still Remains and it sits with the person who's going to be purchasing it whether the city assesses them or the developer includes it in their price it doesn't eliminate that cost from that angle what about uh platted Fourth Street then so uh similar you know if we were to build Fourth Street then there's a lot of it close to eth that it's really not benefiting anyone because they already are there and so we'll have to go some distance before we'll be assessing anyone but then potentially it would be the same thing uh a public Street public utilities and a handful in this case I think there's three again land owners that might benefit from that that and be assessed so how does this development access its northernmost tier the this development is planning on building driveways in 6th Avenue 7th Avenue and Fourth Street and those driveways will be in public rights of way but they will be privately constructed and maintained they'll be because they're in public rights of way they're open to the public they're public property uh the city if we Grant the license that we've used in the past it allows the city to say we now need need this for a public purpose and those improvements have to go and we're going to put something else in instead yeah I'm with Craig on on the concerns of all the people that came that are immediate neighbors not one of them that doesn't benefit financially supports it the people that it's really not in their backyard they're a few blocks away they're starting to pour in letters of support but I don't think it's right to assess uh John and Mary or Dawkins or anybody else to subsidize access and utilities for this development I and I think that was clear from the council last meeting that you didn't want to see that that's why we proposed this imperfect compromise solu solution to try and avoid putting any expense on any of the neighbors that aren't intending to do anything different with their property if I can jump in here um we made two proposals or proposed changes one is the addition of 7 ft to thir Street between 6th and 7th to widen that stretch and the other was the removal of adus I just want to make sure that everyone is up to date on that and those those were directly in response to the two concerns that came out of the last regularly scheduled uh city council meeting about number of units SL density and about the condition existing condition of Third Street thank you um anything else you want to clarify or questions you wanted to ask them no I just suspect that if somebody says that they're ready to buy in there's a number that's floating out there you're not going to say I'm ready to buy if you don't have some inkling of if it's 300 500 700,000 whatever it is what I do know it doesn't approach affordable it doesn't help any of the people that are looking for housing at the hospital at any level I don't even think our H director lives in Cook County said I don't think our H director even lives in Cook County and that you know that's the problem I mean we have people in the hospital are making the best wages up there and they can't afford what I suspect is the scale of this project did you have any other questions Michael nope I think uh we've talked about this quite a bit um you know this did come to planning zoning and we did vote unanimously for this project um there were a lot of things you know there were questions we knew that you guys would be coming here you know about Third Street we talked about water we talked about lots of things there um and I do still think this is a good project I do like the compromises that have been brought forth on Third Street even though that is imperfect and I do agree with other counselors about you know the city does need to um take the lead on on infrastructure and and improving streets and and I think to your point you know about how Third Street became discovered is true um and I think we probably we should do something with Third Street I think regardless of what happens with this project because that is being used and it does need our attention um but that said um you know I would like to to make a motion to approve um I guess there are three resolutions here yeah um but I would like to make that motion I'm going to recommend if you want to make a motion that you start with the vacating the conditional use permit per okay then resolution 202 24-37 the Pud cup well I I did want to make a couple more comments before we got to comments to that um point with this um I'll just say that one more time do I want to see Third Street change no but do we need to yes and probably as you just said outside of even this project or we need to find increased access for people Beyond just the two spaces right now to cut back and forth it needs to be I think addressed and the other piece I still feel we have we've kind of gotten fairly direct about but I don't see this as a development that hits enough people in a broad enough ways in my best comparison would be um Chris gild's potential project and the reason I bring it up uh is that he that development you could bring in your own builder and and build your own as you wanted to and I said this in the last meeting and and um an HOA is nothing new but it's still new to a lot of potential homeowners in this community and um we're not looking at something that gives you a garage we're not looking at something that gives you your own bit of space um and the density is important to make this the numbers work on this I get it but to me it still leads to a certain certain clientele is really going to be interested in this and then a lot not so I can't really say that I view this as a project that will draw a variety of people except for the pieces that might be um within a price range for people but short of that this design and style I I don't I feel fits a certain clientele and there's nothing wrong with that you know that's fine and then I also look at and this is kind of what Talia say tala was was saying there's other places we can go and put our dollars in to develop and and help our housing and we've picked a particular it's not we I shouldn't use that word but this development picks a particularly expensive place to do this there are other places that could be a little less expensive to develop if you want to you know if if if I put on a city hat and my focus is that I'm supposed to help get housing into this community this is a pretty expensive way to do it so those are the thoughts that still Twirl in my head about this particular project can I respond to that sure so I think you know we do have to look at all levels of housing I mean that's how we're going to start to try to alleviate the pressure is it has to come at all levels it can't just be one way to do it and so I think this does it adds does it fix it doesn't fix but it adds for sure um to the mix of housing that's out there and draws people who might have you know they might have bought this house but oh look now there's this and I'm going to buy that instead of this and that leaves that open potentially for somebody else to buy at a a price that may be more affordable maybe not but it does just put more more mix in there you know that makes the potential for you know those prices to at least stabilize if not come down so I do think that you know this does help it doesn't solve and you know the I I think the affordable units will you know well I'm shouldn't say affordable theyo the approachable whatever word you okay it's an a word an a word yes and you know I I do think that those you know people will look at those and those could be some of our local people that would would look at some of those for sure um but I I do think it's help just one thing for the record counsel they have to be local people they're oh can you thank you you're welcome the five can you please define cuz that's not obviously in your main agreement right so that was a question today can you please spell that out I sure thank you yeah you're welcome I just wanted to make it clear um almost forgot that one the units that the I don't want to say the H's contribution is trying to get those five finished Lots whether the units are built or whether the lots are conveyed right um those uh folks that are Income qualified according to Minnesota housings you know if they get that grant funding that's one thing but regardless of how it's funded uh the to the subsidy the H requires that those homeowners have to be uh um Homestead that property so it's a primary dwelling and they have to show proof of being uh employed in Cook County very good very good I forgot about that it's good thank you um which is one other thing I'd like you just for the general public because I've heard some varying comments on this please and we we kind of talked about and clarified one aspect last time and that was that you know this is not short stay rental so we have that one I believe clarified but I think there's still confusion among the general public um about what else you may do with this home and you may have said this last week but let's say this one more time I mean you can own this home but you can rent it out as well you could do a long-term rental so there's nothing there's no like legally binding way to say you can't rent out your own property unless it's city has in some sort of ordinance or licensing process and I don't believe grar has either of those things so somebody could yes buy it and then rent it to a long-term renter if they wanted to so in a sense you could view it as investment property certainly second home property the market portion sorry mayor to be clear not for the yeah I'm done with the sorry I didn't say that very well let's just get a more confused okay and if I can add to that that's true of any private property in Kone oh I know but I've heard people say that there's some condition that said these would all be would not have that so I just want that so everyone's clear about what not that like you say not that that's different from other developments but I've heard otherwise so just want to this is like I said in the beginning this is our opportunity to make sure we're kind of clear all the way around about what's going on here so okay I'm going to second the motion repeat it would you please oh the motion is resolution 2024 37 uh the Pud cud just like that so this is all three resolutions no we have to do just one we're going to start with the conditional use permit resolution it's are there any conditions put on putting into this condition permit yes so let's talk about those because we haven't talked about some of them enough yet um they need to be covered a little more detail but I just want to start first with you might have noticed this resolution is rather lengthy uh it's more than our typical resolution our city attorneys have been involved pretty heavily in its creation uh thank you City attorneys for that assistance much appreciated uh page 42 in in the packet I'm looking at when uh it starts with be it further resolved that there are five items in this resolution that I think you might consider a condition um and it says that it's talking about storm water facilities and and ability to maintain them it's talking about accessory dwelling units and the first version of this says no accessory dwelling units will be allowed in the development we actually think uh based on the conversation that's not necessarily what we need to do there are two single family structures units in the development and so we would modify this condition to just say that no accessory dwelling units will be allowed associated with the town homes or row houses in the in the development and then if the single family structures end up with adequate space to meet our accessory dwelling unit existing zoning requirements there is any reason why we would prohibit that uh the next one is um that prior to the final plat um the applicant will enter into a development agreement now we've talked a little bit with the developer about the timing of that that maybe they want to do the development agreement after the final plat and it doesn't matter to us whether they want to do it before or after and so the the point of this one is that we are going to do a development agreement so if it doesn't say prior to it say as a condition of approval of the final plat and so is that the one that we're going with okay so instead of saying prior to the city's execution of a final plat it'll just say as a condition of approval of the final plat okay um the developer will be required to in the rest of it development agreement uh the next one is a requirement in the development agreement that applicant make improvements to that portion of Third Street impacted by the development so that is the propos that's included in your packet now says they're going to widen Third Street between 6th and 7th their responsibility so this this resolution is saying they're going to be responsible for that Improvement um they're going to submit plans to our engineer and our engineer is going to say yes those plans work before and then we're going to say we accept that Improvement I think the conversation tonight it's clear that that won't be enough and that we'll probably when we look at the Improvement of third Street um if you want to see a design for the whole thing we'll do that first but at least this resolution says some portion of that between 6 and 7th is going to be their responsibility and then subsequent final plats uh submitted to the Planning Commission and city council this is just what's required in our city code right now after those conditions we've got Exhibit C which is 40 page 46 on mine and this is findings a fact so they're not necessarily conditions but they are a lot of things that um we're saying are true about this development that would be things that have to remain true as they come back and do further applications and there's a few pages of those um mostly they are trying to detail how the development does comply with our existing code around plan developments so I won't go into the um any of those details but that's what they're do do is spelling out how this development does comply with the city code and then part two of that is um the findings effect about the actual what we need to say when we approve a conditional use permit so use conforms to the land use or comprehensive plan of the city it's compatible with the existing neighborhood doesn't impede normal and orderly development and the location and character is considered consistent with a desirable pattern those findings that you're probably familiar with and then there are some findings about uh the fact that a planned unit development varies from the strict interpretation of the R1 zoning requirements and so we have some findings of fact that are the variance questions uh which I won't read to you but those are in there as well so now we've gotten from page 40 to page 50 of this resolution and I'd love to have any questions people have about that anyone have any questions what were the questions you anticipating you thought you'd love for us to ask you I wasn't anticipating any okay I'm just hoping them you ask me all right um so the main piece is uh Third Street which to me needs outside of this needs a discussion and decision yep by the council um I don't even know if we're all in agreement about what should be done or how it should be financed necessarily and I think it requires a little bit more time spent this isn't the time I don't believe but I think that needs to be thought through um storm water trying to read through your list and I would have agreed that that gets taken care of by engineer work I'm not sure that I I thought that was an issue knowing that the engineer your work would be in the mix on that but did I write that down wrong no okay again give me that look I thought maybe you were in a different planet for me for a minute on that one all right it's engineered yeah and then we have removed adus except the possibility on the possible last piece of development for which that is still to me a huge risk that that may never occur Ur or it may occur in a different fashion or by the time it occurs the cost of it may be substantially higher on a small piece of land and I don't feel comfortable with that at all um and then the developers agreement so those are my only thoughts about that yeah we don't know when the structures are going to get built but we do know the intention is to put all the infrastructure in up front so there's at least a head start to the construction of any more and and I think anywhere in the community if you put infrastructure in you're going to start to see houses get built so we don't know when or if they'll be what he says but we do know that putting infrastructure in and then of course we have and this is not within this part of the resolution but just like um the other development we are assuming the city is assuming the risk that potentially this could land back in our laps as far as the streets and the infrastructure the water and sewer right I don't think we're looking at that with the development agreement um we do have a lot of security built into our devel our standard development agreement forum for infrastructure that's being planned in a public RightWay that we will intend to own there will be some of that in this development some of it uh the particularly the utilities that are going to be extended in Third Street will stay in the in the city right away and we'll retain ownership of them and the developer will be required to provide some security so that we can be sure that anything that doesn't get finished in our right away we can finish the the work that's going to happen on the private property in the development I I mean I suppose there's risk anytime we're talking about a private development that in the future people will like it to be a public development that's certainly a fairly common phenomenon but I don't think that the city is incurring any Financial Risk uh for the developers performance or nonperformance of the work that's on their private private property future we talked about this with Norris googan the future potential of taking on that yeah walk me through what what what does that look like when something goes from private to public in in that setting Mike well it's a I mean nothing about this meets our requirements for being public so it'll be a difficult uh political conversation that does happen sometimes where private development say boy this is a lot more than we expected to have to maintain streets and utilities we think the government should do it we're paying taxes why shouldn't the government do it I mean that's that's the argument that's and it's not uncommon uh but in this case upfront we're having that conversation clearly with the developer anyway and we're going to make sure that it's set up to be successful without our ownership okay do those items well I have a a comment to make I think I think the developer has gone ahead and tried to help with the Third Street issue by volunteering his dollars to widen that portion of the street that access is Sixth and 7th um but I'm concerned about Third Street as a whole going all the way to eth and at this time I don't want to see private parties get assessed for improvements on that street unless there's a huge benefit to them um uh I don't know if there's other monies available to the city to improve that street that end of the street um what can be done on a level that is Affordable to the city um I I feel that if that end of the Street's not built out correctly it's just going to still be a bottleneck like it is right now going through there in the Su time um and it will Pro and it will pose a potential traffic issue I mean you know when you put 21 houses in one little area like that you got to have access for them and I I just think because of Sixth Street being a dead end Seventh Street being a dead end and there's no way to connect those to anything else um I just think that it's not a third Street's not a safe Street for all this traffic and that's how I sit right now way I feel about it if it got improved all the way through I think it would alleviate a lot of stress from people that are using that Street and driving along that street and actually live up in that area that used that street um that's just my comments on this project at this point in time there is a process that the council has available to it's uh to talk about the Improvement of Third Street and to have that conversation with the neighbors and to go through that whole issue and so Y what what we tried to do was separate that conversation from this conversation with this resolution to offer some something to help with access but not put any burden on any of the neighbors uh right we we can still uh go through the typical assessment improvement process where we would ask our Engineers to produce a feasibility study that'll do some design work and do some cost estimating and have meetings with the neighbors and talk about this is the Improvement we're proposing and talk about whether or not you want to assess any of it and what those might look like and then talk about whether you want to order the Improvement that uh I'm I I'm hearing that loud and clear you want to do that whether we go forward with this project or not so to me that's still a separate question and we'll have our engineers get started with the uh you know I'll get a quote for your next meeting of what it's going to cost to do the feasibility study and I understand it's SE I understand it's a separate question but it for me it's it's not asking them to be assessed so that this project can be built you understand this project is causing this problem is what it's doing so that's that that is the negative feedback that I get out of this and and I know that the the the the developers have tried to alleviate that issue by taking care of their block their piece of land but they're forgetting that you got access that piece of land from the east or the West you see yeah you can't you can't you can't access it from the north because those streets aren't finished the we've talked to both the developers engineer and our engineer about traffic levels they're not conserned that they don't have an improvement that they recommended for us right uh so it's not an engineering question two City councilors tonight have said they think that this is an issue regardless of whether the development exists that because of different traffic patterns that this isn't the way we want Third Street to look anymore so that if you want that to be the case there is a pathway forward for you to to consider improvements to it and talk to the neighbors about it and and I think still that's a separate question from this development that our professional uh advice is that this development is not causing the need for significant upgrades to Third Street so yeah they don't live there yeah it's different you know is it going to have no impact that anyone will notice of course it will is it where an engineer says this isn't safe they're not saying that well okay anyone else with any more we've got a second right all right I'm going to do a roll call on resolution 24 20 2437 borberg pudc and I am going to start with Ben I what I no no all right no I Craig oh I'm sorry Michael this was a roll call sorry I'm not hearing who's voting sorry yeah say the names I think yeah it was my I'm sorry let's start again because this is roll call Ben I William no me no Michael yes I'm sorry and Craig no so you've not passed the resolution that was written to approve the project but you haven't pass the resolution that will reject the project and we'll have to prepare that and have to look at that next meeting okay I think there's a lot more conversation around this and issues to feel good about this and the street is one of them and Mike has just mentioned I hear this and I hear that but I don't think this council is in agreement on what Third Street needs exactly and I think there's probably other solutions to that but the one piece I probably didn't say earlier is there's lots of things the city council can approve and later change or modify but when somebody spends this kind of time and money and they're putting in whether commercial or residential we can't change it and we can't go back people put that kind of infrastructure in we can't take it back and I still have some uncertainties so until I feel really good about what we're doing when we're asking people this kind of time and money and and change the landscape permanently I want to feel better about things that I've identified as risks tonight that I haven't gotten the answers I felt kind of mitigated the risk of where the future lies and how this will end up for everyone if it will really truly end with what people envision will help our community and not to say that can't happen but I'm just not quite there yet um with that we will move on to Planning Commission report uh for resolution 2024 39 and 20244 yes well these are a little simpler yeah um let's see I presume that everybody has looked at has probably been by this property many times um and the use that's being requested is approved for that that area we we discussed in in depth about the parking um that's why parking images were provided uh to us tonight so that we could have a a look see at that and see how that might play um and it's you know it's moving from um long-term to shortterm rental again that's approved there um and but from what we were to understand it's also Limited in time um looking to do it just uh during the the summer months um but also they are living there and the the unit right next door so there it's kind of an owner occupied deal do you have more to add on that Ben no I think that's that's uh you know this is a great example of uh mixed use being used as it was intended and for a a a young couple to to be able to purchase a home and and need that supplement income in order to make their mortgage uh uh affordable for them and and and um it's it's it's it's I think it's it's pretty good um the one condition that we had talked about um was that should they want to do some winter rentals or keep the place open in the winter that we would want them to be responsible for snow removal from their portion of of the lot in that out which they would have to do anyway which is already the case yeah we just talked about do we want to make that clear yeah yeah and I think so I don't know if if that's a condition or we didn't make I don't think we we write in the resolution but if you want to put it in there we sure can but it's an existing situation that the private owners along that alley are responsible for snow removal yeah okay so there's that one all right any question questions on it do you have any questions Craig did you have any questions on this no okay well I would make a motion to approve resolution 2024-the good um conditional use permit I will second that resolution all right any further comments discussion all right we're going to do roll call and this time going to do it right uh Craig yes Michael I I William I Ben I all right and with that we have passed resolution 2024 39 and I will not attempt to goof up the name either I'm going to stop at that point very good very good all right so then we have our next resolution right and easier this is even easier this is actually reducing request that they made the first time so they're asking for a less of a variance which we're all for that uh I believe it ended up now I'm forgetting it was I think we're at 2 and 1/2 ft was that what yeah down from five yes okay 37t 4 in okay so it's for a much smaller part of the roof as well because it's just over the elevator yeah so I assume you guys saw the pictures and what have you so it is a much smaller um yeah it's much smaller deal alog together and really saw no reason not to approve somebody coming to say we want less so I again I would make a a motion to approve uh 2024 -40 the CCF variant I will second that motion any uh further questions or comments on that all right I will do a roll call on that as well um Ben I William I I Michael I oh Michael sorry Michael just me Craig hi all right and with that we have passed resolution 2024 40 ccrf variant thank you I'm going still be on Fisherman's picnic recovery mode still all right we're on till next year yeah oh boy uh we're on to council and staff reports Craig yeah I was uh home for Parks uh Rec Park report um just nut shell kind of a rainy spring as everybody knows but they did end up July was up 1% uh over last year um so they're trending on a positive direction even though we had a lot of rain um we did have a discussion about the fuel pump Dock at the W park being uh over 20 years old it's a suction type pump um I think Dave is going to get courts from uh a fuel company out of gof to look at replacing the pump and check the tanks and possibly relocating the dock closer to the wider part of the to the marina rather than having it away on the other end it's hard for boats to actually get in there and fuel up so that's something that we're looking at uh possibly changing and getting estimates on what that may cost um we'll be moving ahead in the next couple month or so here working on the 25 2025 budget for the rec clerk um we also had the um creative economy collaborative do a presentation uh at us concerning a artist who's looking at putting art uh all around all the Great Lakes actually and Grand marray was one area that he chose so we had a concept of what this piece would look like and there was some discussion of whether we wanted or not and I guess we we we did end up saying okay Boulder Park might be an area where you can put this but but we wanted a more uh more of a design concept and how it was really going to really look like before we really approved it so we did give uh go ahead on coming back with something else that um might be more fitting to his concept and to what we were looking at anyway uh so that's something that's going to come back to us probably at the next meeting I would think uh other than that I think that's all I had at the park par stuff yeah I think that's it that's it all right Michael thank you yeah um obviously we had the Planning Commission commission stuff um and then we had the Cannabis if you want to do cannabis I could do cannabis talk cannabis uh we had the Cannabis uh meeting and uh one of the areas of discussion was the licensing and how that's at least this was this was my focus because this was something I'm very concerned about is um how many licenses there will be and who will get them and as we now realize is they if if we limited them which we are allowed to do um you know we can create something of a competition and if there is a competition um or if there are two that come in at the same time we as a city or as a county can make a decision as to how we decide who's going to get the license or not but that's like the only way that we have any impact on who gets a license otherwise it can just be anybody anywhere whatever so it's kind of a yeah and we have no control over that so if our yeah if our priority and and that's the first assumption so if if we assume that a priority is we would like to be supportive of a local-based business yep we can't yeah from that standpoint point and there's no geographical to that lottery so 50 of them could be picked from henen County right and then you don't have to say where you intend to put that business in until after you've gotten through some of that and then you can go pick and you don't have to be a resident of where you're going to put that operation in and the license of a retail I mean there's multiple licenses so you know we go at different levels but a retail license can have five the license can have five operations and they could be in different places yeah so does it make sense to like set a super low limit and then we can always grow that limit in the future that was kind of our first angle yeah that's where the if we looked at the Count's draft ordinance last meeting the super low limit was two per geographic region that the county uses to Grant liquor licenses for liquor stores so that would be two in the city limits of grand marray as well in that version of it um it ends up being 14 countywide I'd be surprised if there were ever that many just because some of the geographic areas County don't make sense for this right but um you know two in two in tofy two in schroer two in Gray two up the trail two East to the county Miss I must be missing a couple but that's kind of the the style that they looked at for the draft but if I heard right you seven was also put out there as a possibility well and then we have to layer back the city you know right now we're talking about Pro potential oh here we go again joint agreement but we still may end up figuring out our own agreement yeah you know our own our ordinance you know now that would be it seems like if your priority is to is to want get involved with that local entrepreneur and develop that and have that relationship and and you would want to keep as as as little state in involvement as possible yeah I don't think we have a way to avoid it um even you know they get to First crack the state at the licensing process and and and we don't have any role in it until the state has already preapproved so they could put but if you said hey we're going to limit to one in grammar and they'd say well we found you the one here's the one you get right A year later 6 months later we say well you know one isn't enough let's go to and then yes we're going to fill it or we're going to same same probably process but we don't know because they haven't started doing it yet and they'll probably change how they do it yeah yeah so they have a limit to the amount of licenses that will come out of these lotteries and not everyone's in a lot not every kind of license is in a lottery to add another layer to this but I don't want to missp you know but the retail the retail yeah and then but then we've got micro and meso and all that but um so all we can really say is we can set our zoning rules and then their software is going to come through and say and we have to respond does this application fit within your zoning yes it does and and I believe at least it did before you know are they current their property taxes and that kind of piece and if that's the the case that's about all we're able to consider or comment on um when a license application comes through and they are waiting until 2026 to we look at those limits so even if we changed our mind and oh I think we'd be okay with three if the lottery is already dispersed and they've already in theory gone out and put their you know everything's maxed out that won't change until 202 six potentially that's and that makes sense give it a couple years let the dust settle I get that and then they'll relook at those so there's a time element there where I don't yeah it I my first thought is yeah we narrow this down but I'm not sure even if we like boost it up if we get anything cuz they may already that limit may already have been used somewhere I don't know it's interesting yeah it is yeah I just really dislike that not not having any any St it's so yeah but we're supposed to manage it well the county and us you know we're managing it but only if we pass an ordinance so if we never pass an or ordinance then there's just then we're not managing it no one is potentially managing it I yeah but we're still required by state to do certain things I we we do still have TOS in that I don't believe we are responsible for that if we don't pass an ordinance with that regulates this well we're in inspections of what like retail operation inspection well you have to do the annual checks that is we have to do the annual checks like you do with cigarettes but in but after that if anything else is out of compliance in their operations we just F we just let them know and it's up to them to investigate any operating um business around cannabis they take care of that what were you saying so I just want to drive on this a little bit more so you're saying if we don't pass any regulatory anything yeah then I don't believe we have a role in compliance checks yeah we're still required to do that though that's a requirement of municipalities is to do those checks and we also can charge fees go to the count why would we not well if if we yeah we can oh that part of compliance checks would and the proposal is to have Public Health and Human Services to the compliance check the number Michael referred to going from 14 down to seven the suggestion was that Public Health and Human Services has to develop a process they have no money to hire extra people it's got to be absorbed within what they're doing right now so the discussion was maybe bringing it down to seven um are they the ones on that do the cigarette checks now yes okay so it'd be fairly similar so so now I see what you meant you meant from the angle then the county does I just we don't have a it's not like we totally don't have to do something either give it over to the county or it still has to be done at a local level at some point okay got it yeah anyway there's that that's what we know and I still feel that we need to package up and it how if someone wants to hold an event I think they should be able to go to our City website click on a link that tells them what forms they need to fill what they can and can't do so they do not need to come in and ask a bunch of questions because I do the more I read I believe we will see events and we could easily see one of our local businesses wanting to hold an event should they decide to change some of their product lines and some would not even be business related um there seems to be sort of a Community o here we go Community vibe to this whole concept of having a cannabis event so I do feel that we need to get our ducks in row and make that easy for somebody to know what where they can and can't have them what applications they need to fill out and they've said quite clearly on their website right now that at some point they'll get their Ru making in place and there may be more from the state dictated but right now they're saying it belongs to the local municipalities to handle this in the meantime and I think we should and just even just convenience that somebody shouldn't have to walk into City Hall and go how does this work what do I need to do they should be able to efficiently read that and see what they can and can't do but that's what we know right this thing okay you got anything else no that was it all right hi I went to the earhead animal rescue meeting and they've obviously gotten their building moved to temporary location y um so great I think they're seeking to clear up a lack of clarity that they perceive exists I think is the way to say it they're seeking maybe to to get together with with Mike and Tracy and and go over some some things to see if they need to come talk to the council done that meeting before happy to do it again I do have an invoice they incurred an expense by hiring somebody to help uh separate the buildings and support them for moving and disconnect stuff underneath so I believe they're seeking payment out of their 25,000 I believe yeah the way we're operating is just that we the city's committed 25,000 the County's also committed 25,000 to the project and we can spend that on whatever they want us to spend it on so no problem paying this invoice great well there'll be another party when that gets done yeah that was a good anything else they have some they have some estimates but I think that they're they're lacking some of their final numbers there's unknown you know about can stuff be burned on site does that be trucked out what's the true cost of of fill material and concrete and there's some vagaries okay yeah I their contract are still with them yes as far as I know yes thank you okay so they have someone to kind of get to those answers yep they've got a great project manager and they have a contractor lined up for the site work that they're working through those details all right good any other meetings and um no upcoming on this Friday with the with Shane steel the first meeting of the tree okay this Friday yeah can you please extend an invitation to me I asked that I be included in that first initial meeting or I'll reach out to Shane I guess I don't know whatever all right that's exciting yeah Ben nope that's it planning zoning as if that wasn't enough is that what you're thinking plenty it's a lot plenty it's a lot of yeah um all right the Eda um I believe you're all aware now that we will be uh without an Eda director as of the end of the month and congratulation to Teresa B on her brand new position opportunity I think it's a great one uh we are in process of and it has already a the position has been posted we have a potentially in inter interum Eda director I'll let you know and next uh week at our uh Eda meeting will be an important beginning well not beginning But continuing conversation about the future of the golf course so we've added an hour hour to our our meeting and we'll do that we have the report back and have time to look at it and we'll start that important conversation um the H wait a minute you we had our HR committee meeting this morning so you had other you you could say yes I had other I knew I knew you were going to cover it smooth uh so our consultant Rina claxon's done a really good job of beginning this audit work of what what's missing what needs to be brought up to current and we went through all of those items and we've got next steps from that but I think it's a really good start I'm feeling really good about all the work that will be done and we'll just keep plotting away on that um and then uh so that was the audit piece we're also still of course looking at um way at our department head level of um salaries and salary ranges and all um as we work toward um performance uh in the future for wages and salaries and increases and all of that so those are important steps forward on that um I wanted to point out that one of the suggestions in our goal of increased Communications this year just based on um Teresa of the eda's current director's bonly reports of activities I said hey maybe that's a great one for the administrator just a suggestion and what I didn't realize that some months ago you did this because it never reached my mailbox until this month and I'm going to hope that all of you got yours every month and I was the outlier on that do you all have every single month when was that didn't you start Mike three of them out there fourth will be coming soon all right so has everyone got all three except I do now because Patrick sent them to me but Craig do you have all of yours from the prior months oh he's looking Michael sorry feel did you ask I mean I had it do you have all of your monthly re um update reports from our city administrator that was one of our new pieces to our internal Communications I got it right you got it okay I thought I got I think I'm good let us know or Patrick will send those to you um do you have yours I believe I do okay and Ben very good I don't know how I got left out of that Wonder anyways we're all up to speed now and we'll read and the the other piece that made me concerned about is the first thing Mike did was ask for feedback and apparently got none so it would be very nice if there was some feedback no no no it's not in this case so let's make sure that we acknowledge that and we BR constructive feedback all right um I think the rest are just some status questions uh oh I no I do have one more so in my mailbox from the league of Minnesota cities are two letters that went out to our Representatives um Roger scraba and Grant hosch and the league of Minnesota cities is um recognizing both of them as legislators of Distinction for 2024 and they do that based on um their accessibility um their consultation with the league on things that are impacting cities their efforts to secure um the one-time uh rural aid for the ambulance services and the pilot program that's going along with us we talked about this at an earlier meeting I think that was my update for my time at the leg Min associes conference um some for house child in particular as a member of the tax committee their consistent work to ensure City needs were addressed and craft workable legislative uh Solutions Roger scaba making yourself readily available to discuss concerns consistently working with those issues and getting them addressed um so just a great Round of Applause and appreciation from Lego Minnesota cities and I'm thinking we probably need and and the reason came up to us is of course we they'd like a little press and let our community know that so I think we can take care of that as well and that comes from the league can consult with our communications director on how we can do a little bit of work on that um I would like to ask and I know we're getting near to budget season but I would like to have Chris LaVine show up at our next meeting and just see how his um marketing plan is going and how things are moving forward from that angle for our new liquor store cuz time will pass quickly and I'd like to know I know he's been working on that and I'd like to see how that's going along and just right from ha's group a little bit how's the summer really been going sound like some things have been going well so I'd like to ask that he's at our next meeting um and maybe Mike you could fill us in on status of where next steps for for the um joint agreement refresh for the law enforcement and what we are for next steps for a joint agreement to get our short stay ordinance to be coordinating with the county and once again we're looking basically at September now and our goal was a year ago to have that in place and now before you know it I know it will be January 1st and um it'll be here yeah so maybe you have some updates for us I'd love to so let's start with law enforcement agreement today met with the sheriff and the County Administrator uh but we were unable to meet with the county attorney uh she had a another issue to deal with so we what the plan was today was to put our last work together before next week's scheduled meeting of the county and the city officials to talk about it I think we're looking at rescheduling however next week's meeting so stay tuned for for an email from from probably from Janna uh for scheduling that um that's where we're at with that but we what we've done is prepare um a presentation that has information about the number and type of calls that law enforcement deals with inside the grar response area for the past three years and some information about the case load that the County Attorney works on our behalf so that's where we're going to start with that um next the vacation rental uh we sent off a the of course you've done your first reading of our ordinance right and we sent that off to the county staff to look at we sent with it a draft service agreement for them to look at they've sent that back with comments we've had those comments reviewed by our attorney everything looks good there and the county has scheduled a committee of the whole meeting to talk about it at the board level which I believe is maybe next week so that's also moving along well uh I think the there will need to be a conversation about uh how this is going to be funded our initial thought was that the fees that the county would collect for licenses in the city would cover their expenses and I think that we need to just test that and make sure that's true so that's probably the last conversation that we'll need to have about that and we'll be ready to move on with that as well okay great all right did you have other things Mike two things um I don't know if we put a memo because this came uh more recently about the library hire did we put that in the consent agenda I didn't see that so please uh hire Anna wi as Library custodian hope I said her last name right if not I'll hope to meet you soon um that so like a motion please I would make a motion to hire what was the name of Anna wi Anna wi second all right Craig hi Michael hi I William hi Ben hi and with that great okay and then the last page in your packet is a schedule of our budget process and so we will be reaching out to schedule meetings with the department heads to go over their draft budgets we'll be getting their draft budgets in what we said today but we'll probably you know another day or two of that we'll we'll put that together under our first draft for to look at and then schedule in the next 10 to 14 days meetings with the department heads directly to talk to them about their their budgets uh we'll start with the um budgets the Departments that are funded by the general fund because that is our schedule we have to have the first meeting in September our preliminary Levy set and so we just want to make sure that all of the levy supported general fund dep departments get a chance first which means somebody like Chris although he'll be at your next meeting might also be coming later in September or October to talk about next year's budget that's great I appreciated that time timeline yeah that's very helpful so great yes thank you um so getting back to the borberg in Third Street I don't know I would like to ask people do you want a work session on something like this to talk through some of this do you want it back at a council conversation I I think I I would like to try to figure out a way to get it together on on some of that stuff um I guess maybe moreover you know is on the Planning and Zoning side of it you I'm a little conf maybe not confused but um I maybe need some more guidance as far as what we're looking at or what you want us to be looking at because we are we're looking at these things and we're running it through our process and then they're getting here and there's and there's there's problem s with them and so if if we are not vetting those things properly for you guys I I would like to know what you want us to to do differently I mean if I can address that I mean I think that we are we're just you know a group of other community members right I mean and we bring our expertise that we've got or don't and make our best guest just like City counselors do just like you know Commissioners do so I feel like you know we can't expect that all eight of of us or whatever are going to agree 100% on every issue that we bring forward you know we do follow a process right we look at what are our rules what do the rules say you know can we do this can't we do this what are the issues and and we just came to a different conclusion in this case mhm but I would say for the most part it seems like you know pretty Prett pretty much of the time we we're you know we're in alignment okay um more or less um and we are two of those so you think we at least have two V right um it's been the larger housing projects where I think is what you've been noticing that that probably is worth some more discussion right and it is and that's why we do you know we have our discussion people come to that and then we have another discussion here and people get another you know hack at it so I think it's proper democracy yeah I and in this case I really felt we heard so much from the public and then I have to really think about what's my responsibility from what I've heard and then I also feel that a lot of times which is part of why I asked so many questions tonight I really wanted the audience to make sure they really understood how this project would work MH and my guess is they didn't my first guess would be I mean I had to have clarifiers tonight right um and I sat and spent many quite a bit of time reading through everything looking you know this took a lot of time and as it should because you can't backtrack on this but anyway so like Third Street I think that's it maybe that's like a work session like part of this why tonight's conversation was difficult for me because I don't think we have set a position on how we want to do um infrastructure development right we've just left it up to a private developer to come in and do and when we consider the cost what you know if we are going to ask this of our community at large do we have to try to you know it'll never be it'll always be expensive but where you if we're going to spend the money where are we going to get the most yeah I think for the dollar set us up for for a high level of success in projects when you're scrambling trying to figure out if your road is wide enough to support right like that's not probably the time to have that conversation right and we're going to have that conversation on that property probably again right because something is going to happen there right um it's a big enough tract and and so yeah I I think the larger conversation about infrastructure and costs and how how do we how do we deal with that how how do those conversations go with Community what other monies are available how do we budget for those like what what does that look like cuz I don't think anyone of us wants to sandbag somebody with a $100,000 assessment on their home right we don't want I don't want to do that right and um so how how do we avoid that right and I think you know we did look at this before you know we were talking about this at some long ago Council time um like how do we you know where do we pick how do we choose you know which places to develop and not and all that and it seemed like we kind of came back to like where the where it's requested you know where we see people asking and that kind of thing but I hear what you guys are saying which just saying like well let's frontload it like let's say like we want to see people here so let's put some infrastructure there and I suspect somebody might build and maybe it's as simple as identifying properties like like tala did or whatever to say look here's the likely areas that we're going to have these things how how how prepared are we for those developments right um or what does you know what does it look like for us um and the earlier we can start having those conversations the quicker Jason can go and find us money coun I don't work for the city you know what I mean yeah that's yeah but yeah I think we've got but we definitely need to have further conversation about the infrastructure and how that's going to going to look and I mean I still think we should do something about Third Street regardless but you know it doesn't have to assured you're going to see some stuff about that like you can't have the conversation you had tonight and not continue it right away oh no no I we will continue it we will have a quote from our Engineers to do a feasibility study at your next meeting yeah and to continue the conversation right well yeah that I really dislike turning way housing projects really really dislike it but I understand it and you don't have to like nobody has to justify their vote but that's I understand there was enough there that it was it was tough um but um I don't I don't want to see a lot of those slip through yep so maybe we can know yeah I I I think for me well yeah I started out one way on this and then I look at it and I keep thinking I get back to yeah what are we getting for the how much are we having an impact that our community says they need out of this I'm not sure but that doesn't mean we can't keep working on it right the other piece that I still think about you know how feasible this is but we're sitting here with second and there's houses down there there's more properties that could be developed down there at the bottom and what we vacated part of that or we didn't but oh Oh you mean on second going down oh yeah yeah yeah and we and and I could see someone wed to get in there and build out more and then fact someone has applied for a land use permit and will be building in there so where where do we sit on that I mean and how do we let that just sit as a little Gravel Road in as you you know I mean at one point do we need to do that and I'm hearing residents say well they only you know I can't like I can't even literally walk through there which just makes no sense to me you're asking people to have Walk Way up and around just to get through we so it's not just Third Street it's that bigger concept of how we getting accessibility through all the way around yeah and once again these you know I feel that's the part about this project that that was one piece and now it's bringing us to have to talk about bigger issues that maybe we haven't thought through or haven't had to think about before really they they kind of get caught in to me some important pieces cuz that's definitely a substandard street I mean just even to get two cars through there's no question about that y so um yeah all right okay so so that gets me back though to the question do we want to have a work session to kind of move some of that forward you want it as another agenda item how do you want to do that that's a good question I mean it it seems like it's got enough depth that it would be worth I mean if you're if you're you're talking about the whole infrastructure thing right yeah kind of the con yeah kind of and then getting into Third Street or whatever just starting that more yeah I mean we're obviously going to talk about third and then having a work session about how we want to deal with infrastructure and connecting that with our goal of developing housing I could be a worthy worth the um work session yeah and and are bringing like Planning and Zoning into that conversation somehow or like you know work that it's a it's a good venue for a lot of those conversations um pulling up maps and pulling up you know here's the plan here's where we see and let's make this work yep all right let's do that then can we find a time for after mid-september because if you have a time before mid September we're going to use it to talk about the budget well that's right we're going to have it can we tag it we can tag it yeah can we take it to that sure sure okay mic's going really yeah we'll do dinner I would rather time as you want to spend absolutely Subway Subway it is oh yeah all right thank you all very much thanks you B