Okie do order please Mr caner here Mr KO Sir Mr Smith here Mr Glennon here Mr Lions yes also present is Gregory Dunham Town manager Edward nazaro assistant Town attorney myself and absent with notice is Malcolm Murphy who is recovering well uh he's got about seven screws in his neck so uh he sent me pictures over the weekend he said here's my Terminator impression so so yes that's why he he apologized again for missing today but he said he will definitely be at the next one oh and Dana little is here from the uh Treasure Coast Regional planning Council ince okay great thanks um so uh uh the next meeting we're going to propose would be um on March yeah I need someone to approve the minutes we need to go to the minutes April I I need someone to approve the minutes I move the minutes to be approved yes second second please second in order of our agenda apologize so again next meeting is Thursday 8:30 or possibly 9 depending on whe we what day Thursday April 25th okay it's our normal arpb day right now we have nothing on the agenda so if that continues we'll do a 8:30 meeting if it doesn't then it'll probably be 9 o'clock meeting I'll let y'all know their deadline for submissions is this Wednesday so I'll know by Wednesday you'll send something around I absolutely will um communication from Public public I staff right uh thanks Mr chairman uh I wanted to introduce uh our third party consultant who's with here today his name is Dan the Treasure Coast the Regional Council uh and little I think that includ Martin Beach Lucy so they represent those four counties and uh uh I told you I think at the last meeting that um Mr M by his profession is is planner for the Treasure Coast Regional planning Council uh but he has a degree in architecture if I'm not mistaken so I would ask Mr little if you can just to maybe just share a little bit about his resume he does counil well good morning thank you for having um is is a beautiful morning here in GF stream I just had the pleasure of having a tour a few weeks ago with Mr D and Mr Naro um And discussing the issues that I think you all have have come together to try to resolve um my name is Dan little I'm the Urban Design director for the Treasure Coast Regional planning Council we're Four County public agency the State of Florida is carved into 10 different regions and our sister region to the South would be the south Florida Regional County Council which is m g Broward and we're the only Regional planning Cil in state that has an Urban Design Department which is what I'm in charge of and we assist local governments with things everything from you know um neighborhood design architectural design guidelines rewriting codes all the way to Regional Master plans um and so in that capacity um I'm in charge of those type of projects and we assist outside of our region on occasion um to the South or to the north and uh we worked exclusively with local governments we don't compete with the private sector uh we have an interal agreement with with the state where we can work directly with local governments um and we'll work on Master plans for instance last year we did the master plan for the town of Lana where uh we had a full Market study done to understand what their growth potential is what different sectors and we try to intersect my work intersects between you know the public Vision uh what um physically fits or is desirable physically in terms of new construction or development and then also is triangulated by what um is legally and that's I think one of the challenges that we've discussed here so um with no further Ado that's my introduction and I'm here to just answer any questions or or try to assist however we can um we're just uh here as your Regional planning this morning so thank you for having so Dan I think what I'm going to propose we do is go through the um six s key sections in the code that we believe impacts massing um I'm going to spend a few minutes on each one of those be sure that um everybody on the panel U appreciates the purpose of those sections answer any questions and then uh part of um list in the order of importance one some most signant impact massing and then open up to some discussions in general thoughts and thoughts just to start the discussion um so the last time we met uh I pointed out to members of the panel what I felt with key sections that influenced mass and by the way as observation if anybody feels that there's some other sections that are equally important please speak up so um so I want to go quickly through these five different sections um f um it's a relationship between the size of the building to the size of the lot the larger the f are the larger the building proportion are as I go along question please ask the second floor area section this section addresses the size of the second floor in proportion to the first floor by limiting the second floor area as a percentage the first floor you you're effectively reducing the size set and I think that form is Prett Bo setback that's of measured from the property line on the different elevations I mean east west south east west south north um and there's a different setback um for the different um elevations um OB set as the deal with trying to separate the buildings uh building how first FL elevation you think it's it's pretty straightforward what makes and I combine build first elevation interact in terms of height um you think it's sory but it really isn't because what are you measuring from the street from the current grade from the raise R the average gr we get into that that's somewhat of a real challenge tray or grade could you talk about PR and how that's impacting four first floor elevations sobody on sense sure so during our last meeting I mentioned house on Old School Road where it's a new construction where if you are standing at the road which Mr little and Mr D myself observe very recently your eye level is essentially at the Finish floor it's it's where the top the steps are as the person's walking in um so that is big difference in that area specifically because that is that is lower so the FEA Maps require a certain minimum finish floor elevation that is has changed over time and that relates to some of the older developments town you will see those are the finished floor is a lot lower so like saying the building height the height regulation where do you start measuring from well when you're looking at an older house you're starting from a much lower Vantage Point rather than a newer house that is required to me the F standards uh is you know maybe two or three feet or more in some cases depending on the age of the the neighbor anything but that's just what we're seeing with new development that is required to build the new FEMA standards and where that initial finish Flor elevation under our code which is where you start measuring from is lot higher than and I can add to that the house new sou Mr L's house is was also subject to the new theme Flor elevations and it's a one story house so those are two good comparisons one mrar was talking about a twostory and I think it's surrounded actually on both sides by one story uh but the one by Mr Lions is a are they at s feet or is 8 ft now the law or is that going to be the law I believe 8T Ian I was reading you our we know it's GNA go yeah yeah but they haven't done it yet that's my question speculation going high correct and so that's why you see when the commission level a good example is 3400 yeah what's what's that well well they asked for eight I'm trying to remember what I think we gave them seven I I really don't remember sorry I think they were asking for eight anticipation rules well there was a lot of Step Up even for that the house and the garage was a little lower everything Road right it'll look pretty similar to what an Old School Road right so the the height section is separate from the first floor elevation section first floor elevation section speaks to um um a choice of you must be a minimum of the highest of four things and they list but there's no there's no Max that you can go up as high as you want theoretically Cod right uh it's actually the opposite it CS it at a certain height however the the code now is lower than what the FEA maps are now requiring so we're sort of forced to allow something a little higher that section7 me is each lot have its own level that so they can be different um there the way the Fe maps are it's it's not just by lot there are like for example the FEA appap will by in some cases a lot right so um it is different based on different areas but typically code I maybe in two different areas where there's a f difference so it's not super significant But to answer your question it can vary lot as drastic as every just depends on starts so I I didn't express myself well but I I think that the concept I think it's important that I understand other as well it says the undeveloped non ocean Lots the maximum space for elevation for all undeveloped non Ocean Front plot shall be the greater so we're making it go up must be the greater but it doesn't doesn't you can do greater than the greater so the maximum is the largest of the options you have so if 7 ft is higher than a foot and a half above the ground Road and higher than .5 ft above the average then the maximum is seven so the maximum is the greatest of the three options okay Mis um but that section is really critical um because right now we set our building height against that first FL elevation um and when I I get into further discussion of some of these sections I'm going to read from vill Southampton and their Association and they examined uh how it's governed by other uh towns and villages in the hamps they measure from different levels like first not necessarily um from the first FL elevation that's ComEd here um okay so we went over uh building building height obviously is um a very important aspect some um building for so try on these regulations are are two three are two and three ever relevant it's always each ft I mean just by reading isn't it just always over s ft so I I actually discusses with the owner of a property in place the old property that's being developed right now um the crown of the road is you know hundreds of feet away from the property it's sort of a rectangle so he was discussing how um the crown of the Lo Jason road is technically the entrance to place off and that is much higher than something El there are some where it's possible but for our purposes in the court it's really going to be that 7 there's not going to be our roads aren't as high as 5 so that what hous are up just north of us here where you actually some the dve go way down Lev could you build those today how would that be said it's 7 ft sure so I think a lot of those have the the kind of floor maybe the Second Story and they have like buildable area underneath um I'm not really sure how that was handled under our but I know that that's know I'm trying to get feel the no I'm glad that whole point of going through this is be sure that we're all on the same page and I was a little what that said Now understand but it's a key aspect of mass abolutely so then we have um building form bu design I won't spend much time not there're really architectural um influences of massing uh they can dampen it but they really AR the elephant so um what I'd like to do next is have some general agreement what are the sections that we just went over that dominate this this question of masing which are the ones that have the greatest influence of that and and quite frankly I think just the way it happens the order is probably the order in which I think massing is most influenced I mean f is is a big fact when you so every simple um and one of the things I I didn't um include here and I probably should is um the the amount of open space what's the ter that might want to add that um what what we might want to think about when we talk about F uh is pushing more of the F down to the first floor um but if you do that then you have more of your Hardscape on the other hand it keeps the aial de much open much more open um second floor U area the more you have of a second floor in proportion to the first floor very sign so I would say floor area ratio and second floor area really important I would say next would be um the first for elevation depending how you define it SL Building height um It's s of the put those together interconnected and then setback I would say would be the um the least impactful section because no matter how far you set back something if the filling is really high it's still high doesn't change um on the architectural sections the building form mve to we can talk about it should talk about it but again I don't think that's going to really preserve me what's our goal reserve the aial open of the cor district and you know I've become so aware of it as as I've been involved with this effort here I drove out my driveway and I know can see all the way I can't see all the way Bon Beach you know I mean just there so building can see that far um and you when I drive up from my house on PO I can see up about three blocks and if you start putting up T buildings and a lot of matching you would be able to do that we I think roof slope can really matter um remember we had it on home we did work on he Dr the RO from a higher pitch to a lower pitch a couple Fe even I think architecturally architect did not want to do that he thoughted imped on his design but it turned out looking looking really well but so our thoughts would be maybe May the slope of the roof could be important especially that's the only one I can think of what we did and that's was mainly on some of the one story parts of the hall I'm not mistaken the master bedroom is on it's the one you see from like from your home if you look would um because it's interesting to say that because when I I started looking at these different sections then what's the criteria to measure have they impact m i put perception of size same yeah if you if you look at what you just said you look at the front of the building uh you're going have to fix roof he right maximum one could be sloping one could be flat um and so well at reception of s but it overall impact of I'm preoccupied with the openness of canopy and sky and shade and all that uh but you're right the perception of socks um let me add some other criteria how we should be looking at these different sessions Street skate how does it fit into neighboring proper Rhythm of the area um and I know I'm redundant so I apologize the preservation white there Sky how do these SS impact that preservation of privacy these different SS impact that and then you know balance between um hard statement and openness um and so as we look at each of these sections I think we need look at in that context these only suggestions um okay so let's let me throw out a a couple of by these are the sections that we're looking at we may want to introduce some new sections um T manag product would we ever consider um limiting twostory houses certain locations I'm thinking um Corner Bon and stream where we have the polo Coles um we don't have a h uh it would be a dramatic change um on that corner if you put up a big house um's house on the corner there right Jing St she would be south of and you put up a big twostory house and we just to change the street schem so um again I'm just sewing out ideas because that's what we our mission is to identify possible ways of mitigating this threat of development um we go down Polo and um stream as i j mention the last meeting the majority of the houses on polo on the east side of Polo I mean majority um 80 probably 85% of one story houses um so you reference the new construction of house south of me um I my story is one story um the house um south of um construction the one St um and if you popped up a two story Street um we often use the landscape as a a way of sort of hiding um M um toe it's like put lipstick on you know it doesn't really you hide the problem but you create a whole another F by having this tall vegetation that I mean it's just massive um and it creates these Canyons around the houses land most tall vegetation and in terms of openness all that open gone and while you get some privacy and I they were building the house south of us they were come there to discuss with us the Landscaping not ask that they keep it low and why would you do that well because a sudden exposure of a house when it's really high you never get any s in that side of the house and we want this um so Landscaping U sometimes is is used to fix we think it's fixing the bomb but I think it creates another set of um any any other you want to I me just one one comment on landscap have really good examples of new twostory houses that uh you know I always say we just wait until the Landscaping comes in and one would be the house there on Old School two would be house poen and and the D house when you look at the Davis house from Polo you know through the bacon lot I think the Landscaping actually helps it helps M bre up one side they have and I'm not saying Landscaping is a bad thing but it's sort of become ser that'll fix all the problems create some other problems it does give you it's no question so now I don't see the two story house but I'm in a jungle um and you know frankly a lot of vegucation that end up putting up pretty ugly um and um so let me read to you um a couple of sort of differences of um have other towns deal with okay so base height Residential Building height ised as the vertical distance measured from the natural grade um uh in the case of the property of varing topography some average average natural gr uh in all South Fork municipalities except in South natural gr is the surface elevation in the village of South Hampton is measured height is measured from the natural graul which shall not be changed in any part of more than two feet in other words prior to the application of the maximum height restrictions up to 2 feet of fill is allowed to raise proper um as a result new residential construction to J streets NE is 2T High same problem we um village of eastampton has insed a sliding scale dri so lar the the higher so that's thought um um in the village of Southampton and Village of town of East all regulate gr Flor area if they are by one set formul regardless of L size yeah these are not recommendations I'm just showing you how other Town seal it's a percental lot area plus some con the regulations grow Flor Village to Southampton is 12% of the water Plus on 00 um so there other ways of constructing these whether that really helps on addressing the masking I don't know um one of the things that get a of see but you you're not below there are you there's eastampton and southon I mean they're 4T above sea level these houses are the big problem here is we we're so close to sea level if we were 20 or 30 ft above we wouldn't be need a 7ot high well so depending where Village South yeah the Village South not ter it's a legal term includes the big houses on the ocean go for1 milon and um so friend of us they sold a family house uh and um Robert crab bought the house and it's raised by about 5T from the adjacent houses and everybody arm I'm sure you see that yeah yeah I mean similarly you get a lot of around around PS you'll see like the houses all the first generation houses once they're knock down houses built up significantly higher because you they're built Essen mark you got to remember here G the PO it was the PO community and everybody that came when I little kid just means nothing but they were only here three or four months out the all my winter friends and they would all go to uh what adult stream school which was built back then in the old polar Barns and they were tutor there it was a toing school that's proper word so they can come and still being School up north they come down here the Bri people would play polo and the good athletes would play polo and they come down from bomb each and return and the main part of course they came here and the main part of where all the PO still is on top of the Old spish river that and it runs up through parts of ocean ridge too you know the southern island that some they build up all the street and so we're M house and everything was all POI and it's all M and when I was 8 years old they finally got rid of the southern most field and dug the two canals in then they came and dug the canal later up by Old School Road and that was the very last piece to develop and the reason was because that was the worst M of the that's why that road sink couple feet of you know over 20 years I don't know you would know somewhere and U that's why all the houses on the west of Polo Drive are on Aug piling for reg P that we used years ago and for the most part where your houses and everything the old Engles house Marland May house there they're and rock and that's why none of those things simp and that's why uh polar Drive is right where it is and polar Drive is pretty stable until you get up the Manion road then it drops off as we all know and so we have a unique thing and and it's all the month where my I can address mine I live there mine you know every eight or 10 years I got to you know raise it up four or five inches around it's going to keep going down and I'm probably the highest Street uh in Gold Stream in that area by inches and it sinks the least but the streets never been you know raised up so we're fighting two different things the streets are going down especially North in the houses because of the ti since I was a little kid they're up another six in or higher annually so far uh and we you know that's what we got to really address and it was originally little teen home my parents first home that we didn't help Park we had to be all carport we didn't have AC we did but most people didn't have AC when they live there you have mosquit you know these old you know the windows we used to have Jes exactly but it was designed for that do now we adapted it into probably the nicest community in the whole area in my eyes we built the best school from a little tutoring school that used to be in the barns to what it is today and everybody loves it and a lot of the people come to Gold Stream as you know to raise families and that's what gives us the life blood so we're CAU between building these big ugly houses I don't we you know don't care for but some people that are older you know can live like smaller houses and if you have two kids or three kids or more you know you need more bedrooms and so we're caught in between different and vegetation I can agree it does soften a lot of stuff and anything in our area look at all the trees they're going to grow they're going to grow up and you're going to lose a lot of your view anyway unless they trim them every year and a lot of people do trim the Fus and a lot of people don't trim the Fus we can't make them do any a good hurricane comes through then that trims it for those people and some of the older houses that we have that we love that are the old Polo Polo Cottages that Paul's talking about have been here long before or at the same time I came here and they're great and a lot of them are so low and that caused another problem they're built out of wood some might be the old bar tiles like the old park house and the go Golf Club you know different construction but most of them are all out of wood and at a certain point I don't know what I'm thinking about but you know they might say we aren going to even ensure your houses or we aren going to Ure it because it's too low so they can't you know assuming they borrow the money to build the house and want to sell it to somebody else I'm not going to buy your house because in 10 years I'm not going to be able to be able to have on to it for my ex so we do have a lot of problems and uh we're caught in a rough place and I think this great to have these meetings um yes I heard repeated occasions and it's a fair comment that uh well first of all I think you highlighted significant change in the demographics in the last well probably last 10 years um and that is a young younger family coming and that's a real posit for district but I don't think it necessarily the quak to necessarily big house um and I'm going to use my daughter as an example uh now the property they bought is a small lot you know they have upstairs two um three boys one in but you know they do the boys share room I grew in a house was about 7,000 square feet and um my brother and I still share the gr and so my sisters that's where my pars wanted um and and the house we had was far to big I mean there's no reason so I I I think that you can still have enough rooms but the typical family they may not be gigantic HS and they may not have these enormous ceilings you still live in this community if you really want the more massive house there other communities nearby that you could buy those bigger houses and I think we offer an alternative to what is it's typical today make someone was mentioned to me that she been around here a long time and how like has been all these big houses I I'm not pushing Big looking at the picture through open lens that's so as we think about changing things what we what we're going to be doing keeping the uniqueness of the Court District Preserve that um and they might not offer quite what a new family might want to have big bigger rooms higher ceilings so you know they have an option going someplace else but there going to be families who like our daughter I mean they're happy having the house they have um they could afford to have a bigger house but you know do you need um and um you have a one story house there's there's a second story The Second Story is very small but it's it's primarily a first story a lot that just wanted no I think that like I think it's a really good point about the families and they're we're deciding uh you know imagine similarly like we decided to Mo stre for the community and like the house was love the house and very happy but as long as it has like a minimum viability of like this is enough size for our family that you know that is a is a secondary factor it's the community and then the house as long as we're not you know going into I think restrict how just restrict the sizing the family could could live in given modern whatever sensibilities uh I think we'll be fine I don't I don't think that your point you 10,000 of house go other are of South Florida but but for Gulf Stream I think people are making decision community and as long as there is kind of a you know a minimum thresh for size houses no when you look at I found an old PL Gold Stream you know before we divide it up we divide it up lots together together and and we're talking just about the core area and basically the entire core area is 100 you know and they go from 134 to 50 or 155 or 160 or the or wi house 165 ft 5T of the ones on now are in the water so we can't build B you know what I mean we can't yes we got like Davidson house and everything I at the end of the day I think it looks fairly good the Town didn't have to sell them the pizza of property that they own the town didn't have to give them rights to use that if they did I would part of any of that you know the square footage so the town created some of that too uh but at the end of the day especially since it's planted and I go byy it in my boat uh I'm not sticking up for them but you know what I mean it has tone down a lot and uh pretty soon nobody will ever be able to see that house unless you drive down baby in Road except for the people that are on the C know it's see interesting even if you drive down B road because of the great trees they have you be aely see the house anyway I mean it's yeah no no the two beautiful trees absolutely but that's big trees so if from their house looking North the trees block all their view you know what I mean but I like to I like to see too I like to look at you know and but they don't care they got the water on three sides they got the world very beautiful views you know the morning sun the afternoon sun they go to the east side of the house know but can't regretably for them that some of their abew is of course in the Boon Beach and some of the houses are pretty ugly I mean there's one talking about next time when you look at the Davis's house from that open lot on polo you look a little South you'll see this big house and also they have like colored lights well I I can sort of see that and personally the colored lights change throughout the night no yes they do I can take pictures of it you know the end of the street we old half stairs right at they can change the color to those like red green yellow and blue and change it in different things anytime they want and you got to worry about things like that more so and at the end of my Canal next to your house uh you know one time and they're still there they had a h bright lights in their seaw wall that are real bright and I got pictures of every one of those that were taken but my you know and the town address that thank God I don't know how strong we are but I don't know if any of that's in here you got to worry about people decorating their houses with color can you make sure we get those addresses so we can send a for my letter mention really to highlight how fortunate we are we do have we don't have those issues Dar you were going to say something tonight I was wondering if since we have this for a little here spent a lot of time you could little could go through what he sees and how our different and what are what you see potential different option than you um you know I not spent a lot of time in G stream I've driven past it through it many many times so the tour that we took a few weeks ago was very Illuminating for me um and keep in mind our office we work we worked in pal Leach and we work in belade everywhere in so every town and every city has its own issues um so I'm been trying to understand your issues or your concerns uh and I think you've been pretty clear about exploring is just over you know and the character of the Town changing understand the the notion of openness and view corridors um and you know as I go through and I just flip quickly through your tood and then you know in in traveling around the tray and the manager um you've tightened up the code pretty substantially think over the years like for instance now the second floor in court can only be 50% of the area the ground Flor that's pretty significant um you don't see that in any places unless you're going over say five stories or something so obviously that doesn't apply to you but what I'm saying is that in residential areas where you're limited to two stories it's rare to see that level of restriction um the first thing I brought up I think when we were traveling around is what about historic district is there any appetite something like um but whether there is or not um I suggested mapping the areas that you think you want to protect you know new construction that's already occurred that's water under the bridge for you um so what are the areas that you want to try to preser Reserve reserve the ter and at least map those for your own information and then they may start to identify districts that Mak sense for maybe an overlay or something we in our work try to appeal to try to use zoning as a strategic tool and always always conscious of taking issues down zoning some uh because that will get you in a lot of trouble and um however there are ways to approach that um so I'm trying to you know as we discuss this I'm trying to think strategically how can you do this um because effectively what you want to do is down some of these problems essentially you want them to stay as they are or if they rebuild stay within the same character what's there to the theme of stuff you're not going to get around so this what it and I think that you know the three while maybe a little bit confusing to read um the maximum of those three options is a pretty good approach because you know frankly we're in a different and you want to be up above the waters um so I would personally wouldn't spend too much time on that so long as you feel comfortable to be limit it to the maximum that it has to be um I one of the things I really like the the S effects at this second story that you've done um maybe a way to incent people to do things differently one of the things we talked about is rather than the Second Story being parallel the the the long side of the Second Story being parallel to the street rather there's an incentive for the short side to be visible to the street this gentleman here I'm sorry I know your name but um they were referring to your house now they didn't realize that it's two sorts so I'd be curious how your house is configured and also what the set the front backs make a difference because for some of the new houses that we saw on our tour for some reason it looks like they're closer to the street which I think is going to exacerbate this concern about creating gr only two St and I understand the sensitivity so the long answer to your short question and I don't even know if it was an answer but um I would try to map the areas that you want to preserve um and think about strategies with with which to do that and you know maybe there are things you could do tweaks to the code it seems to be the first floor or second story that's the bigger concern but I would also be very cautious of the front set too you know I know some of the lots are more shallow than others and so that can present a problem and then whenever there's a condition like that um you all are you're excuse me SE both that creates challenges of course one other point is that we found out last time is that the F the maximum you can build every lot works on a one story as well as a two so it's not like by building a twostory you can build a bigger house and that's all so some of the things that you seem to be talking about like like just setting that back or you play with the side set backs you say listen one story you get an extra foot or whatever you can do it we built the one story when we realized that get the same size house I'd say the one restriction that we felt a little bit tight on is in order to do that basically a square and they gave us a little bit of thing to build up in the back but I I mean I don't think any other time we can try to do this in D you have to reduce F right I personally I don't like that because it's really messes with people's property values at that point and it already fits in one story so you have that Advantage so kind of agree that it probably is a lot of tweaks and I also agree like the house next to me on the corner of pal it's the two story feels like it's on the street that setback would make if they had a set thereal two set from back but you kind of without doing a whole lot I think you can make it so almost everybody choose right and you have a maximum you also measure your maximum height to the top of the RO right a lot of a lot of communities will measure to the middle of the roof middle of the slope which I never quite frankly understood because you don't have see it unless you're further back but um but that's more restrictive than most communities as well now one of the issues I think we discuss is folks that want to build a new house obviously you know they want to have it modern all the modern conveniences but also sometimes real soaring ceilings you know the internal Flor ceiling Heights can be very very high what is your maximum do you what your maximum restriction I also recommended too that if you haven't already um you know and I'm an outsider so I'm seeing things through my own eyes and I don't have a history to compare what I'm seeing to I don't know what the before looked like so I'm driving around with with your manager like this works because the architecture that's coming in is fantastic you know comparatively speaking I I spent a lot of time working with communi design guidelines and you guys are way ahead of um we've also got great Architects working too um so try to boil down the core issue which I think is massive and then I would build a catalog of the photograph photographs of the places that you think work well the new construction that works well and then you know try to try to ensure that the code enforces that type of design um or if not modify it to do so um but you know we also as I said discuss mapping the areas that you think should be preserved and then discuss strategies on how to do um I was sing some crazy ideas like you know we've actually recommended some communities to down Zone themselves you know if you're willing to down Zone yourself because you care you know in the future of it there's nothing wrong with that the challenge is if I want to down Zone you and then that's presumably taking some of your properties um and so it quickly becomes a legal issue but you know you might create an incentive zone or something whereby you get an additional bit of f if you st at one store you know which is the inverse of what a lot of are you know because they you know they're they're their Desir is and more investment but you're trying to just calm it down can I answer a question this is you might call it philosophical um but I've heard from no Wills people that because of the uniqueness of the town the value is in uniqueness and F's policies important too but you look at it in the onedimensional term from a financial perspective it's all about f is not what in my opinion drives the I mean people are paying for one story loes older they haven't made sure any numbers and they can pay that same amount and get a house twice as big in Del R so I and in fact I think Del rly now on the ocean front they're reducing the F did you see that in the Co St yes I st is still two or three times what allow no no that's Point down um and I will confirm this but I'm virtually certain that in the village Southampton they so so I hear about and the village Southampton has some of the same unique cies um and I'm talking they have districts and zones whatever they call where I other than a small property here they did that so I I I'd like to have as an open open mind that the f is something we still can address but I think that when we started this effort first meeting we talked about beinging s and I think it's a much better approach than taking away but if we have to take away that's the only L we end up you have to consider I so back to economic value take away some of these properties can't arue that point um on the other hand you take away the economic or we can debate that well in my experience um I've worked in some communities where this notion of yes let's down zone until it comes to my problem and it's just it's just basic you know human nature most folks aren't going to do that um so that's why an incentive approach I think is better um f by the way as you know all of you it's I mean it's a planning tool it's a relatively blunt tool it doesn't provide you predictability it just helps you calculate how good or bad things are going to be in future you know and it does help limit the masses but um I me my little calculation here is you've got a 16,500 foot minimum lot size in the cool which is a pretty healthy lot um that would yield at 33 F about 5400 Square F feet now I wouldn't know you know without having designed it but sounds like you might have a recent experience um 5400 square feet with the existing setbacks and things and if it had a drain field Etc would probably fit on that lot in one story it did next how big is the house next year r5,000 okay so so he's got the perfect example the new one we referenced ear been the house works great for them that's their style we happen to have a smaller house and more dirt I like dirt but that's breakast um and that's what you know if you wanted to buy my house you get more dirt bu house next door it's newer um you get by St those are options that's good for fil right you're next to you is 100 uh South Side 168 ft North Side 167 ft that's the size of that lot do you know the address of that location or maybe you can provide it yeah so I can be sure D I really think that on the 16,500 foot the 5500 home on one level is is big enough we don't want to you know I mean we don't want to make it bigger than that for sure and I don't think it's h here's a real real estate values in town at all I mean people I I think that be you know what I mean I think that's enough now if you pay 10 million for the lot but sometimes people on the water that pay a lot more for a lot might look at it differently than if you have an interior lot on doam road I would think so I think he would want more or she would want more of a degree uh and another thing I bring up you got some great ideas is that and to read to it again but a lot of times our square footage internally of uh you know if we're over 15 fet or whatever it is I can you count double of you have open space inside the house uh which my house has that and uh not comparing to my but my house and my back porch I have big back porches overhangs you know on the backside that really opens up Florida lifestyle if you live outside and they're and they're you know fairly di uh and you count that all is square footage of AC and where in my situation that if I were to build that house today uh it would really hurt I wouldn't have you know what I mean in it would I I don't remember the numbers but it's a lot if you could see pictures you know of the back my house um so it maybe we can address some of that maybe we don't have overhangs or overhangs you cover areas uh counted 100 % AC space that might help encourage more people to be on one floor house like bu his house that I look at every day the toow him to do something out there with a full roof and everything and the fireplace and the TV and everything and it's GL it's already in the No No but it's lovely you know I think it's great they use it a lot they see I want to go back to theing concept because I think that's in sort of kind of where my orientation is um you under codes the property I'm sure that per square foot you pay one and a half ttimes on the Cod I'm just coming up and and now also and most of the it seems like these big houses kind of fit better on the co I I say that my perception um so where's the interior uh between the east side of Polo and the west side of Gul Street those are were right now most of that interior of the course is one St and maybe we map out those areas as ones that consider maybe Corner Lots I don't know but I think the idea of mapping what I get challenge by on that is why did you pick that and why did you pick my property M and not somebody else's and what how does that well in my mind it would be what are those properties that most reflect the character that you're trying to make and I'm guessing that the majority of those would be some of the older if not original PS which I live in3 year old house you know I'm very sensitive to Tiny bedrooms no closets etc etc um so you know the idea isn't to you know preserve these homes in Amber forever you know and not allow them to modernize or anything like that but if they were to be replaced or heavily damaged they may be made out of you know Hollow clay tile or something and you know something happens that whatever replaces it is consistent with what that original scale and character and you know you've got the design Sub C I mean in terms of materials techniques roof types the fact you've got people coming in building new roofs with with um with the concrete tiles hone is pretty impressive um but you know so maybe you identify those areas and so your your question is well why why did you map my next door neighbor's house and not mine well because my house maybe is newer and doesn't reflect some of that historic character nothing bad it's just not it doesn't it doesn't fit within what I would consider a historic district without it actually being hisor District it might just become single story incentive or something Have You Mr you found any or in your work do you think that there's any Community within South Florida that you've seen that does this kind of sub segmentation know that has achieved it you know in a in a manner consistent with that that we can essentially look at sure I mean cities and towns will do overlay zes all of so you wouldn't necessarily be changing the zoning because that get sticky you know you know you would I don't think this warrant's a town initiated rezoning people's props but if you're going to take the incentive approach we've identified this area which we think it's our incentive District it's an overl should you choose to comply with it when you come in with a new application maybe you get extra 354 if you st at one store you know and you maintain these characteristics of these orual now I wouldn't recommend you try to take away the ability to do a second story some people just love the idea of a second story home what would be interesting to me though is to even tighten up the setback the side setbacks of the second story so it reduces the facade facing the street so I can still build the same square footage I have to just reconfigure the box that might be one approach so they at leas from the street elevator um there's less prominence of the second story because if you got a short front set I mean I person love this but if you've got a short front setback and then you're doing two stories and the entire twostory um massing is you know parallel to the street that's creating you know a a different condition than if it's much AR foring it onto the neighbors uh from then to look at it from the side yeah yeah we're not allowed to have anything two stories up flush and there's also a 5 foot set back on the second floor from the frontation I think so we sort of have that a little bit already you do and I may missing I just from a street perspective if the concern is creating this Canyon effect along the street one way to address that is to turn the Second Story I think that's changing the side yeah so instead of the street the side looking like this now it looks like that now to your point though now my neighbors are looking at you know large but by definition set back that's but for the neighbor though be cut off the longer you have it longer cutting off your proper um I get you're say the thing about incentives and you would have to test this probably from a real estate perspective but for incentive to work it's going be work you know if we're saying okay you can go from a 33 F to a 34 you know that may not be enough to be considered so you might want to test okay what is a05 fa one story building look like on one of these lots and it may not fit you know because that's be A5 8000 house so that may not fit maybe A4 it may not you me all yeah and you don't want to design yourself I'm sorry no asking that's that's very point you stop TR I don't think it would fit but we have to justan you can say that but it still has to fit the 8000 in the well so then so that's the leverage you keep give up here push year maybe I mean I I would have been happy to have my neighbor uh I give up two feet of setback to them uh in order for them notx maybe even I mean I mean the only the only thing that really impacts the set pack would be where you put the air conditioning equipment because it would be closer so you can put in the back of the house put in Fr of house I think you can yeah I think that's a really good point because even if you didn't increase the F for one St you change the set back a little bit like it truly is to get it I bet it's on both lines we have to have Square in order to get it but especially like on polo and Goldston the back the back doesn't matter so I don't know what the setbacks on the back but things you can't see by changing them slightly it gives a little bit more flexibility house or at least allow you have covered roof open areas in the back or something like that yeah I think like yeah that's the going back to what we were talking about earlier like the something under canopy or under cover whether that's treated as AC space or not or whether you can like carve out or you can carve back some some of the square footage by having open open air space whatever you do if you decide to do anything um make sure that it's cified you know that it's in the code so it's it's not like negotiated on you know Cas by Cas basis and you know I I don't know try um you'd have to really because you're you're I'm thinking about the question Mr L you asked earlier uh how you define what this incentive District might be um there should be some defendable defensible criteria because let's say you've got a pocket of two houses over here that reflect that character and then you've got a whole street I know like I think right here north of this there's a street of a lot of the single family houses that that still the single story homes that can make you just want to make sure that it doesn't seem overly subjective you know that you're punishing or rewarding anybody um but I think that could be interesting and it gives an option so it's all cared no stick you know what I mean you're not taking something away from some which your attorney wouldn't allow you so The Illustrated back that suggestion like um in the case of Polo drive from Lake View down to gol street but it almost accounts for half a polo behind my house and I'm on is a 8ot think it's 10 10 and it's open space so back to your point I if you could force the force encourage the houses to move further off P um get more square footage to build on the setback because you have an extra five ft for each property or combine 10t so that would be a defendable case and that would you know it maybe you know it's one step at a time that's okay so we a little bit there keep going think about identifying a district though that's that's within the code that's an overlay it's optional over you know that has incentives is that you can build a whole package you know let's say if you do one store you get a little bit car your covered outdoor space to the rear or something doesn't count against your F maybe you're allowed to do taller Florida ceiling pipes than what are permitted today because you're not doing a second story you know there's a variety of things you might and I don't know how far you would want to go with this but you know um some places even consider you know including in the incentive package like physical improvements like will also match your connection to the sewer system although I imagine if new construction do you have to build sewer you have to connect you got connect if it's there but yeah but if you got hook up to the priv if it's available and If I were to build a new house I would have to hook up to it yeah uh in County which is where our office is in Stuart they have a ton of that are still un Still Still un and well and they're still permanent un and they're going house was 1379 or something it's a it's a septic to sewer connection bill that was passed this past year requires like a 10-year plan to connect it it's worth looking into because what it's going to do it's going to upgrade the individual um septic systems to the highest standards so that may not impact here Place deal going along this plan that the internal Lots we'll call it in the core area the small ones not the ones on the small ones uh that have the alley behind it uh that we can come up with a plan where you move it back closer to get you further off from the street maybe have another incenter PL for all the people that live on the inter Coastal that have 100t wi or whatever uh yeah 100 ft I know you about 150 my rules might be different so that you can build maybe closer to the inner coal instead of 30 feet maybe 25 ft I know some of the houses uh with 100 foot lot that are twostory uh instead of being 15 ft off both sides or like mine they said the garages 18 or 19 ft off both sides uh that I didn't have to do but I did back then and the house is so the second floor it's already set back further even though it goes in essence straight up is still set back further and it give it a you know a lot more side space maybe you can look at that and possibly look at the overs or I I think I mean you know that's some and even the front of my house which is very old you like and Senor man you hear how I got different roof angles and I chopped off the to to lower it from the front because it look too tall and the back is basically pretty square with a lot of overhangs that I personally like but have parents don't realize I'm about 18 or 19 ft off the property line for the main body of the house and the whole back and uh it might be just something to look at you look at it every day and maybe some people like it maybe some people don't but it might be another way get more you you go by my house you on the east side you can look all the way back to the now and see I I I was trying to keep this to an hour glad we've had this discussion but let me unless somebody would add anything else from staff I'm happy to stay longer I just don't want to I know Tom's a busy uh time right now um so let me see if I can sort of wrap it up one just remind everybody it's going to be April 23 in the next meeting um I what we'll do is circulate I think it's just okay to circulate out like some notes compare your notes and um see if we can't list some of the uh areas that we want to explore further mapping Center districts um and specifically look at the set um uh F in terms of creating incentives um look at um perspective from the street on on Street elevation of squeezing the second floor we just and we can explore those further at the next meeting um it's probably the next steps any any other country next meting um when will you be back I come back May so okay well we we'll be texting you you'll be able to watch it later if you want on YouTube ex helpful and any other thoughts and by the way um you know we're looking for all and every idea would come up with other sources of to be talking to some other towns um are there some towns in your jurisdiction that might like us and should be sh ideas I I I don't know I'm just I'm searching for as much data or process the data and get to some conclusion and recommend changes um to the arv um so we have any we not get an AR the ones that are dealing with this and have Absolut great um any suggestions um Gary elop and Mark they're the two that were doing the most work we talked we talk about Architects C planing so you help us on that um and I know Developers yeah you want the architect you want the look that you want to achieve and then the money will that's not our goal our goal is up with something the people want in town that we all love and look do you want me to try and get both or would you rather just one yeah yeah I ask them both then okay they want you know have half an hour for one half an hour for the other they want to stay and listen to each other that's fine um and I I think that we should um put together some thoughts of what we want them to be thinking about so they don't show up unprepared oh we'll we'll have not we'll okay okay any other business again thank youe a thank you see you