##VIDEO ID:1yNUjv6oqok## [Music] this meeting is called to order in accordance with the open public meeting act notice of this meeting was provided to the Home New Tribune The Star Ledger and the Highland Clark planet on April 18th of 2024 and was posted on the ball website at www w. hpb.com and on the bulletin board of Boro 221 South 5th Avenue Highland Park New Jersey and has remained continuously posted as required by law fire exit are to my right and left of council chambers council member George can you lead us in the pledge of I pledge alce to the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call here councilwoman can here Council George here Council H here council president H here councilwoman K Johan counc mic here B attorney Shaw here B administrator H here okay discussion items are affordable housing please note that no formal action will be taken tonight and uh with that Terry could you uh we're going to be talking about track C 2021 downtown Redevelopment plan of amendment so and um on the zoning map okay so first up uh the affordable housing update and I'm just going to mention Brian please come up um Brian SL is our affordable housing planner and uh is working to get us ready for the next round of affordable housing um I I one just mention one thing just a housekeeping our the mic on the ceiling is what's picking up our conversation so just project um Brian you can try to use that it's more for the room and since there's nobody other than Chris here I think we can not worry about that um the recording should be fine um but Brian's um worked with us for several years now on our aable housing compliance uh with round three and as you may have read in the news uh we're gearing up for round four and so we invited Brian to come and kind of Orient everybody to um where what that means for the burrow and what our plans are for getting ready um so I will let me I'm going to share my screen so that we can look at his presentation just one second contr [Music] and then hold on you may not be so welcome after no we will we will be and then the arrow to to the right before before we get started just want to note CL for the record that St council member K Johan has just joined than uh so affordable housing fourth round we're in the third round right now oh I turn it on I'm sorry I should course turning it on it's always helpful let's try that there you go back it up definitely long way try this you'll get okay we're done let's go [Music] home we made all our obligations any question so you have a preview yeah anyway so perhaps we'll start at the beginning uh so I'm Brian so I'm one of the principles in Clark K and hence which is City Planning landscape architecture and architecture about 45 people in the firm uh most of them on the architectural site and so we're gearing up for the fourth round we're in the third round right now and so just to give everybody an overview what's an affordable housing in what does that mean uh deed restricted for a specific time period typically Rehabilitation 10 years to 30 years and that will be changing in the fourth round to a degree the rent or the purchase price controlled during this period and then it's available only to income qualified households in your particular housing region you're in housing Region Three and that's Hunton middle sex and Somerset counties really glossing over a lot we went past one I got you this it's very sensitive so so the fourth round uh started leas with legislation that was pass and signed by the governor in March and unlike the prior rounds one two and three uh the plan actually has to be done before the fourth round starts and that fourth round starts July the 1st 2025 so we're you know eight or nine months out from when that actually begins this time the plan needs to be done beforehand uh and so that legislation created a timeline so we've passed two deadlines already uh and this has to do with monitoring first if you have a trust fund or an affordable housing trust fund I'm sorry you said that the the fourth round starts July 2025 or 2024 25 okay got you I thought my I was telling there's these like these precursors that we have to do ahead of time so one of those is if you have an affordable housing TR TR fund they want to know about it um there used there was a system where you were supposed to input all this information called The ctm Run by the Council on affordable housing well the Council on affordable housing kind of fell apart and uh Governor stopped appointing people to the board and then that's one of the reasons we had very extended third round it's only supposed to be 10 years ended up being 26 wow and uh I could Point some fingers about who was to blame for that but no need to go into that um so one of those Milestones was you had an affordable housing trust fund was to tell the state what was in it well as part of your compliance with your affordable housing plant and your settlement agreement with ferire housing center which you entered into back I think in 2017 your housing plan which was adopted in 2018 also had a schedule in it of monitoring and reporting to fair share housing center and also publishing it on the municipal website U so we've been doing that monitoring for you for some time so it was relatively simple for us to do the monitoring the original deadline was June the 18th once the deadline was passed the legislature actually passed passed an amendment to the wall which said oh never mind you can just hand it in in September um but you know we're on the ball we had it in by June 18th um September the 16th which just has just pass was for what's called Unit monitoring and that's the affordable housing units themselves where are they were kind are they what kind of controls are on them what set so that was just submitted a little time ago now the next deadline is that you know there's affordable housing obligations so there's what's called a new construction component there's a rehabilitation share which is fixing up typically it's fixing up substandard houses um and there's uh those are basically two main legs at your housing plant so a lot of the turmoil in the third round had to do with what those affordable housing numbers were and in fact they have never been finally determined by any court or the state uh there's been a workaround that's been established and people have been following that General but by October the 18th the Department of Community Affairs is supposed to issue affordable housing numbers for municipalities Scuttle but has it they might not meet that deadline away yeah and uh the and so the next deadline after that point though is municipalities have to stipulate what your affordable housing numbers are uh what what they're going to be now the thing about the numbers that the Department of Community Affairs is coming out with is they're just advisory municipalities don't have to accept them but by the end of January you have to tell the state and they're very drastic measures if you do not do so um meaning you lose immunity from Builders around um you have to tell them what your numbers are well just so happens our firm has been crunching numbers all summer about that we have some preliminary numbers or um but maybe we ought to talk about something like that more like a closed session at some point in the future um so but January 31st is a deadline for municipalities saying to the Judiciary um what those numbers are going to be and what you're going to meet in your plan so there some pretty tricky deadlines on this it did it again go back how was the next one yeah numbers there's another date that's out of sequence check so somehow the third round the third round should be up further it's at United States it is it is um well let me just say quickly on the third round Highland Park done very well um it's met all of its obligations it didn't have before that prior round it didn't have an obligation but it's met all of its new construction obligation and has a surplus of 42 units which can be put towards the fourth round and if the um and if the Gabriel Estates project moves forward that would gain another 11 units on top of that 42 um so you've done an admirable job of meeting your obligations so you're in good shape I have have a quick question you said you met Our obligation for the third one what's the remainder leftovers it's 42 thank you so it's 158 the obligation was 173 and that was what was in that settlement agreement with fure housing center um and you have 202 uh units and credits so that doesn't quite add up some Reon I would say the headline is we're walking into the fourth round the next one has 173 Ono yeah 173 what do we have left over so remember so January 31st municipality has to stipulate its numbers now that is a resolution that you guys have to pass it's in 48 hours not an hour over it has to be transmitted to What's called the dispute resolution program that's in the Judiciary it's going to it's a it's a I don't know why they call it a program it's going to be a board of seven people already appointed by the governor most of whom are retired judges now if just so happens that those retired judges are people who have been dealing with this issue in the court system in with affordable housing um so for example the judge that did like a like 70 days of trial just Gigantic on determining the numbers for the third round that everybody's been using she Mary Jacobson is on this is part of this panel so at least they have some facility with how this stuff gets done you don't have any staff but so you could kind of think of it if you want as like the judicial equivalent of the council affordable housing but they probably would not like that characterization so now there is then a month after that the month of February which is the deadline to challenge Municipal affordable housing obligations so have these obligations put out there and then Tom Dick and Harry can um they can dispute what those numbers are now supposedly there's it's supposed to be based on some type of analysis that uh that they said that those numbers are incorrect or inaccurate um and that has to be submitted to the dispute resolution program in that month um um then in the next month the people the panel and the program are supposed to decide whether decide to resolve all of those challenges so I've already talked to um some of the administration Judiciary about this and they said the court system doesn't decide anything so I suspect there's going to have to be some there'll have to be either a Judicial decision or there'll be a legislative change for this one month period and why do I say that because um the Supreme Court in 15 when they issued the decision and finally got everybody going on the third round they said this this will take six months okay we're still dealing with it now there's no way we GNA with challenges so the legislation is a little um uh what it's tell but um it doesn't mean that you can't have a number that you work towards makes sense so um then by June the 30th you have to draft and adopt your fourth round housing element and fair share plan that's the last state so if you think about what has to happen um there's a lot of work that has to happen in the late winter and spring for the mpal after this and so that's why we like to get started with all our and we have like 30 some plans to do and firm so we're going to be really visy and all the planners in the state are going be busy because all this has to be done for at least 350 municipalities have decide to participate because that's how many have settlement agreements with fair share housing Cent out of the 500 and some so there will be some that won't participate fully build out Town super car less right but um and but there'll be some municipalities and fully built out that want to do the right thing so um but if you think about you know the plan has to be drafted it has to go to the planning board then it has to go to the governing body and so you have all these meetings in between and have to happen try to craft a plan and then have a good old public hearing and I know that Park likes to engage the public in what they're doing so it's not like I have some municipalities where nobody shows up you know it's like okay you know you can count on the fact that it's going to move through at a particular base and you mpali though want a lot of public engagement with these processes so you have to to think about how you might want to handle this plan next year and the more you like pre-planning you can do better then we've got even more key dat of the fourth round so in August the 31st um then there's a deadline to challenge the municipal housing plan December the 31st and any necessary amendments to the housing plan have to be finished like say you decide okay you want to negotiate with somebody somebody challenges your plan you decide to negotiate and that's at that point you have to have everything finished up with your housing plan March the 31st in 2026 so a year from this March all the ordinances that you know whether it's zoning or if you have to redo your affordable housing ordinance or and if the implementing things that you need to do that's all got to be done by the end of March 2026 so that's all the key deadlines there's quite a few as you can see but I think for your uh for your thought the key I think the the big one is really getting the plan done and adopted by the middle of next year so then there's the new protocols or the new things that uh processes so the dispute resolution program is Court based as I said um they're the ones that will actually issue um the approval of your housing plan they're going to call those compliance certifications because they couldn't use the same term that COA used like substantial certification or sorry substan certification um and as I mentioned seven members appointed by the government they've been appointed for I guess maybe he did that in the summer and then DCA is supposed to update the process for certifying administra this is all implementation certifying administrating agents Municipal housing lons and are you the municipal housing Lon Terry yes uh and Expediting spending plan changes because one of the things that was found the spending plan is basically your budget or handling your programs for housing and you'd have the small change and then you'd have to run back to court and try to get a date to get the judge to approve it and that just took a long time when you're trying to take advantage of of a new opportunity that came about and you're kind of stuck because you you couldn't spend the money so that's to get that actually is a good idea to actually get it an expedited administrative process that doesn't have to keep involving the court system and then the housing mortgage Finance Agency is supposed to finally update what are called the uniform housing affordability controls that's another implementing thing that says okay the way you do the way you do your deed restrictions the way you income qualify the people that apply for the program all that will finally get resolved because there's inconsistencies that exist today and um there in consistent for example with the law that was um amended in 2008 I mean you know 16 years later it's still inconsistent um so no what's 17 so then there are changes in the in how you uh create the your plan you may I don't know if you know but there's like different rules that apply um and there's different uh types so you can't have all age restricted units and that was actually kind of an issue here in Highland Park because you didn't have enough that were unrestricted as to um age of the occupant so we just barely met the minimum number of what are called family units those are the unrestricted so we had to scramble a bit for and uh so but one of the things that they did is they've made the legislators made a big deal about saying well age restricted units you can now be 30% well the thing is it's not really what they said because before age restricted units were 25% of the total obligation say your obligation was 100 units but you could achieve that through 25 actual units and 25% bonus credits and you would still get 25 H restricted units out of your obligation now it's if you have that same breakdown of 100 unit obligation and you have 25 bonus credits it's 30% of the actual units or 75 so what you can take is only2 unit so it's 30% of 75 units not 25% of a 100 so it makes it sound like they're increasing it but they actually did not makes me wonder if they actually knew what they were voting for um so I think they were they were trying to keep to from going all senior housing and there you know the there's a point because um there's nothing to say that um that senior housing um that that people who be eligible for senior housing couldn't just live in a family unit um and that that's what fair share housing centers argument is on the other hand you usually have programs and amenities that are set up for the senior in an age restrict of development that you don't have families that's the counter that's kind of the counter right there's other building subjects too yeah I think the family units too are more efficient through scage families um because if you look at the statistics the demand for affordable housing is really centered in the Aging the agent population that's really where the demand is U they've also added accessory dwelling units adus compliance mechanisms that's kind of a big idea floating around the state right now legislation um that's been pending for some time and keep pending don't know um where you would have um you would have as a an owner by right ability to have an accessory dwelling unit on your property that's not yet law but it's been talked about for some time that's kind of uh an importation from the West Coast because there number of states States Oregon and California for example have accessory dwelling un or laws that require municipali to allow such then transitional housing uh counts if household if the household is allowed to State at stay six months transitional housing is typically homeless that would be like a Hess but grou transitional group housing so group housing yes that's already it's already outow now no because normally that's longer than six months and any um so but it doesn't say you have to have e any of those that would just be how you decide to do it in your plan um now one of the things that um I think works against people works against developers wanting to do this though the affordability controls for rental units were a 30 period of time now it's going now it's extended to 40 years on the one hand it keeps units longer um in the affordable world but if you were a developer who was thinking well in my career I'm gonna I'm GNA build units and you know um I'll get subsidies to help me build at the front end I'll hold on to this project and at the end of 30 years then I'll just make it marker rate and that'll be a nice kind of retirement thing for me well 40 years is probably too long so it's kind of a distance so I think that that and that can work both ways I think it works might work on one end not work on the other the other thing is that you might be familiar with extension of controls I was going to ask you cuz I know that was something we dealt with last year yeah so extension of controls is and it used to be that um they've extended time has extended on so the original extension the original control periods were 20 years then there were be 30 years now not for sale but for rental and so one of the things is we see a lot of instances where a project that was approved in the second round and was built say it was built in 1995 um and the controls are on it for 20 years and they expired in 2015 well if you can reach an agreement with the owner to extend them for 30 years and sometimes there's a payment involved um then you get to count that as another unit and without actually building it that's attracted to quite a few municipalities where they'll do an extension of control and get a credit but not building I you know particularly in towns that are already built up and and so if it's 40 years that just you know makes that less less available some other changes in these bonus credits and so remember it's 25 % of the obligation can be loans credits and you can kind of add them up so these are all um the maximum obligation is at 25% of the obligation that's still true um age restricted units get a half bonus credit up to 10% of such units so that's not it used to be a one-third bonus credit um and it it applied up until the whole obligation for a restrict that's much more restricted than it used to be 100% affordable project with land or funds from the municipality gets a bonus credit per unit so that's actually a good that's actually a good credit so um if you if there's a low income housing tax credit um project in your municipality and most municipalities donate land which is typically almost always worth more than 3% of the project cost uh uh or they help fund it which has been pretty true recently because the tax credits haven't been worth much money um municipalities have ponied up money to put into it that 3% threshold is pretty easy to meet would that be a part of the HUD with any program under those HUD program would a HUD 202 project would fit under that category so I represented municipality when municipality will would be donating the land and that land would be and also gave them what it's called pre-development money of about 250,000 so that they could do the preliminary engineering and that kind of soft cost work ahead of time um and so that will be that will be more money than 3% of the project cost so uh that project would be available to to have double the credit so instead of 74 units it would be you know 408 then um if you have a for sale project that gets developed with a nonprofit partner a half a bonus credit per unit and with special needs you get a bonus credit per bedroom since you're still such demand for special needs housing that's often on a um a that's often that's where your group homes come in for example the other part that um that that works on is there is a DCA program because there's the low-income housing tax credit program starts in size it may be 5050 units at the low end and can go up to say maybe 95 units they can also get bigger but then they're phased but um and then group homes go up to about maybe six or seven units of the biggest and so there's this piece in between where there's really a funding you know it's like if you want to do kind of a bigger project at that but not that big of a project there's not a program for it but a few years ago DCA did start one that allows call it like a mini low-income housing taac kind of type idea where they you can do up to 20 24 units um maybe and so there was a special needs project that um was done by the luster County Housing Authority partnership with Rowan College which is a community college down in Deford Township where I do their affordable housing plan and that project is Right adjacent to um their High School that supports special needs students and so when they matriculate out at age 21 they'll have a place that they could actually move right next door where they're used to going and there's readymade employment right there for them at the uh at the college plus there's really good um they have uh also kind of well they have a Wellness Center too so they have all these services that can be brought to bear for young adults in particular special so that's like such a concept that worked out there with money that was coming from the DC progr for that kind of small or midsize project so that kind of thing might work too um here in now depending on what your number is uh my work here as well you a smaller scale than trying to find a site for like a 55 so there's lots of kind of U ideas would Supportive Housing Apartments yeah that's that's in that same that's in that same gr uh so we have some other changes the extension of controls we were we were just talking about about half a bonus credit is a rental market to Affordable bonus credit for unit with assed contract uh Market to Affordable is you take a regular unit write down the cost has to be brought up to code then it's sold at a reduced price to an eligible income person typically that has to be someone who's at moderate level just because they need to get mortgage and low in households can only very rarely get a mortgage be qualified then um there's also if you have more three-bedroom units than your required Municipal minimum half bonus credit for those very low income units above the municipal required minimum also a half bonus credit if you convert a non-residential use to a residential unit say you've got that might work here too if um you had some unused office space on the second floor for example downtown and that got converted to uh some four units above that work and have F bonus credits as well part of a Redevelopment plan you're thinking right um and then you units within a half mile of a Transit facility or a Garden State growth Zone I think the transit facilities have to be already identified in a New Jersey Transit and there's a law that set that up already so what if one passes through our town know that I don't I've looked into that and it it certainly did seem like it was written for certain specific cities one of those one of those type of pieces of legislation so anyway I'm not sure that it's going to help you there um so so that's kind of an overview uh and it's like a again it's like nuts and bolts they they have expanded a bit the number the types of housing units that could be affordable considered affordable here um and it's a matter of doing that now you may well be in good shape um depending what your number is because you have quite a few bonuses that you can bring forward from the third round and we also have our here I'm going to stop the share just for the person at home might be watching um we have some newer Redevelopment projects that we're working on you know which I know Factory as well right and depending on where you come out you you might not need so a Redevelopment project kind of by its nature depending on what it is can you like especially if you have have certain particular designs you1 or materials can that can be a cost raising part and you may not need to I mean the typical kind of affordable housing inclusionary development is U you know 15% rental 20% for sale but to make that work you might not need to have as higher percentage there's nothing that says you have to have that higher perent in inclusionary development I thought was the requ us to go 15 20 no I don't think that that's um you uh I think you can be judicious about how that works well we can look at our our policies have been 15 our policy is 15 yeah right I agree good policy to have but if you're trying to achieve some other ends and you and you're close say you're close with the bonuses or reaching the goal and it's a 10year period might be able to have more flexibility on the Redevelopment end to make that help make that come about so just CL you just keep that in mind and like maybe more standard stuff stay in that no right so what I'm sorry questions so so yeah the whole dispute process right I mean one of the things that you said is that it seems like we're in decent shape we're 200 over or you know need 158 we got one whatever those numbers are 202 202 you have you 173 you have 202 plus probably 11 okay so so it seems as if we are in good shape for for fourth round right yeah so is it most of the time it's municipalities that are in bad shape that are part of the dispute aspect of like it's people um I mean we have too much it seems to me that the the people that will get challenged are going to be larger Suburban towns with some uh vacant developable right I mean I think we've made a commitment to affordable housing and so we really want to if if so that I guess what I'm trying to say we wouldn't be the target audience in my mind I don't think we'd be the target audience for disputes right right obligations like thousand are facing deficits coming out a third round that they never met right plus a new obligation of gosh knows what and they're the ones you would but we anticipate we are we we don't know yet but we think we're okay for four the fourth round based on what we have now or do we is that I'd rather I'd rather not talk about session I think you want to go in close I was in um Mena I was at the mayor's conference yeah and they were saying like it's towns like mendum that you have a maximum requirement of you know of of five five acres and stuff like that they have not met their requirements it's like those towns that have stipulation how much acre you can build on and and they have no requirement because there's no affordables mayor um I think the in my mind after I've had the benefit of having a couple conversations with Brian and his colleague elen who actually works a lot on our day-to-day monitoring um and uh in my mind the num let's see what our obligation is I was thrilled to hear I'm me go you kind of buried your kind of I think really important point was that they're taking a very proactive stance for their clients trying like us to that we're not going to just wait and hope that DCA meets their deadline we're going to do our best to them to because the the criteria are very specific in the law so we should be able to reasonably uh with your expertise figure out what Our obligation is and hopefully when they get their numbers out they're pretty close and we can just move on to implementation like that is I said I would in my wildest dreams we have a very boring uh vanilla experience with this new structure and it's going to be about just keeping us on track getting keeping our deadlines met avoiding dispute if we can avoid it and if we feel strongly about they've made an error in our numbers we may have to go there but I we don't have a reason to feel pessimistic I don't think I guess I want to leave on an optimistic note I um because that is my sense from being involved with the monitoring this whole time that that our attention to this on a consistent way is paying off in the long run and there are a lot of Partners in town that work on affordable housing which also help us with meet our obligations so um I I think if we keep you know that mentality we'll be fine keep on keeping what you're doing but it's a lot more and it's a lot of numbers gaming and all that other stuff but um you know I think we have the raw material to be able to have a really credible plan when when it's time okay any other questions from Council I just one more quick the legislation on adus that is out there in pending is do you have any should we move ahead of that or should we move wait for that should we then your opinion well um I guess the question is whether um it's really a policy decision about whether you think that's something you want to encourage in town or not so that's kind of um I mean you have I think you I think you have a fair amount of college students at this at this stage here that probably you have more of them I think with so depends on whether you think that's positive or negative influence in yeah just just regarding adus I mean yeah I think it's it's um know the governor outlin $10 million infastructure for development um and I think that appeals to maybe more traditional affordable housing developers andless maybe the kind of Granny flats or or or others because what it allows is that um some like are more familiar nonprofit developers in town who purchase single family homes and maybe convert them which I think there are credits for that too um can also develop on those lots and that way you won't have you won't have a situation where you're going to have you know a private homeowner having to work with the affordability controls that might have to apply to this Adu you know on their property which is hard um so so I think it does provide a lot of leeway for for because the the rules have all allowed for some time accessory units like that and there's been very little uptake in the state maybe 150 units throughout the entire State and it's precisely because of that because they'd be happy if they you know rent to their friend's uh son or daughter who's not making a lot of money but they don't want to go through the hassle the deed restriction and the affirmative marketing and the other aspects of the implementation that we have to have know it's just not worth it so this would be deed restricted adus you know as opposed to my mom moved into the unit and I'm moving into the house kind of know there is that that benefit is for kind of living you know being able to age in place there's a huge ARP push on adus not with right affordability specifically but it does also help someone with a fixed income maybe afford to stay in their house or they can rent their house out and move to the apartment you know it gives you more options um yeah not so much here but in hton county for example they have uh had a couple of groups that pushed the the What's called the echo unit Elder C Cottage Housing Opportunity which is which is a basically manufactured unit about 600 square feet brought to typically a single a Suburban style or exurban style um single family detached um property and that that unit is installed on the property separate hooked up to the utilities of the house for the aging parent or parents and so that's that's there um and it's um and it's there until the parents no longer need it and then it's taken off a lot so it's a temporary housing that's where you have a larger property probably say we don't really have a lot of large properties be worried that's why I said we don't I I my concern with adus besides the affordability controlling is that um especially in our town with c and d St soils U to storm water run off um impervious coverage and infrastructure um anybody who drove down souths could saw a house right at the corner getting a new sewer while and put in uh horrendous horrendous me mess almost the coast of my mortgage um and we have cndd you know shell soils so we would have to see iously review it in a in a town like this well that's a good consideration to keep in mind I left I I I left out one one last thing on my thought was that was that it does seem like the legislation would move forward since they already took this kind of toe in the water you know in the state budget so I me it does seem seems like been there a while though it has but it does seem like there's because it's outlined in affordable housing bill there's money you know it seems like they're kind of teeing themselves up I think they they kind of I think there was a big push and then they kind of held off because there was a lot right but it is it's listed in this legislation and it's in the budget so it yeah thank you so much um thanks Brian really appreciate making yourself available not a problem glad to help out we're not UPS this was all good news this all good well the main message if you take nothing else way is we're on top of it and we've been on top of it with the help of Clark k h and Brian and we're not only on top we're ahead so you know our intention is to maintain that next we have Drax C so yes and Chris maybe you can join us I'll do a little lead in while situate if you don't mind so we wanted uh Chris and I wanted to take a little time with you to discuss the Amendments we're going to need to make to the development plan I don't have it showing yet so it's not nothing to ADV uh so the it's we're actually amending the track a through D plan from 2021 but we're really just focused for this round of amendments on track C because that's the one we've gotten the furthest along in the design and just to kind of recap Chris will have some slides with some pictures but we had our community meeting in June where we revealed kind of the concept plans and design for the building that we're hoping will come in that swap between uh second South 2 and South Third um and so one of the necessary things which we explained at that meeting but just to kind of refresh everybody is we need to amend the plan not the least of Rich reason is because there are more Lots included in the building we remember and Chris has some images for you we were focused on our burrow owned properties when we went out to the RFP with the understanding that hopefully maybe somebody might come in with a bigger picture in mind but our plan doesn't really have all the design elements and things for a bigger building so what we wanted to walk you through are kind of where we are in the process and we really need to get moving on the Amendments because we can't enter into that Redevelopment agreement that would ultimately need to happen nor any Financial agreements until we have a plan that includes all the properties and allows for the type of develop M you want um and incorporates the feedback that we've given and heard um throughout this process so Chris will kind of present kind of the an overview of the Amendments and why you know what we're going to do our hope is to have the document um drafted and ready in the next week or so for review and then if we think it's ready for prime time hopefully to be able to introduce in the second meeting in October um but that's subject to us sticking the landing and everybody being comfortable with the Amendments once they're fully drafted um but you know as we're looking at the year end with between again amendment has to go get introduced it has to go to the planning board and it has to come back we're running out of meeting dates in the in the year and we don't want to straddle calendar years on this so that's some of the juggling we're doing what I also wanted to mention is what we're not talking about tonight not because I'm trying to be you know Sour Puss but what we're really focused on are amendments to the Redevelopment plan not we're not going to discuss although I would certainly say it's important but I know from the community feedback from our conversations um there's a lot of interest in Farmers Market continuity of operation things like that very important they're not components in a Redevelopment plan so they are important logistical things that we need to sort out with mainstream and we are committed to doing that but we're not here to discuss that because I don't have all the answers and we're focused on the things we need to do to effectuate the building on the site not all the mechanics behind it so that's one it's not I'm not trying to minimize the point but it's just not prepared to talk about it I'm also not prepared to talk about the design of South Third um that's going to be done through the RFP process we've already discussed um with the help of the consultant that we engage on that and in conjunction with our Community Partners Main Street not being the least of them so this plan will mention South Third in a very high Lev way as being you know the future Plaza area but that's about all it it is not the plan that dictates the future of South so I just want to kind of put that in the parking lot of things that are very important but we're not going to you know we're not going to present on tonight the uh the other thing I wanted to mention was um we did go through the community comments that we got from the public meeting there were some themes that kind of emerged I was encouraged in that a lot of the comments were in our plan already in some way shape or form in terms of concerned about storm water concerned about green infrastructure you know um massing and things like that and Chris is going to walk you through some of those things but one of the that was something that I was encouraged by that you know our existing plan and we're going to use this as an opportunity to amplify and maybe expand on some of those components in the plan just to make sure it's it's it's stronger um but generally speaking you know the vision and Chris will talk about that a minute and the where we're what we're trying to achieve with a larger building a lot of those standards are in our plan we just need to make sure we're reflecting some of the design considerations of the kind of concept we've presented already so uh with that I'm going to turn it over to Chris he's going to walk probably we worked on this together so I probably took some of his points so I apologize no but you have all the details um and he's the person really in the weeds making sure the plan protects the vision that we all share and that we think the community Shar and um let me just share my screen with for you Chris hold on one [Music] second I don't share the wrong thing and then let me get you a full screen I can see and then that'll all disappear there we go and I think that's your first slide right okay and everybody knows CHR thank you for having here and just remember everybody we got our mic on the ceiling so for a little I think as as you all know I'm a little soft spoker so Jennifer if you think I need to speak up yell at me um so as Terry mentioned it's gone through track C has gone through an evolution and as you know track C is part of their downtown reev plan 2021 a through D so this is just one component of it um the Redevelopment designation started back in 2005 was considered all these loots did not go to the corners for some reason and as we beaten to death in the mass plan and 21 plan uh Redevelopment really hasn't gone anywhere for a variety of reasons I'm not going to go into why uh but the burrow do want to be corative as you recall in 2021 with respect to track C let's focus on properties that we do own take a practive approach uh see what sticks lands and then as you know he went through the AR as uh Terry indicated went through an RP process uh that plan was adopted RP process designated uh garden homes as a conditional redeveloper for this parcel their concept plan went beyond the boundaries of 21 reel plan which the RFP anticipated and allowed for because the idea was to at least jump start Redevelopment downtown got to start somewhere so the conditional redeveloper garden homes did present a concept as as it evolved you saw the building of figur beyond the the boundary of the 2021 plan and when we did go through the analysis of discussing really negotiating that well what should this building look like and as they started to really buy additional assemble additional properties uh the this burough Council mayor council decided Well let's take a fresh let's take a step back let's take a fresh look and see what we need to do with the bigger building from practical perspective as you recall on the um these Lots everything in blue including light blue is an area needed Redevelopment everything outside of it area needed rehab comes quite complicated from a financial perspective to be able to do an agreement if part of the project is in the rehab area and part of projects and Redevelopment so from a practical perspect perspective it was necessary to really reconsider uh expanding Redevelopment designation uh and that's just from a financial perspective I think more importantly though from an Urban Design perspective and from a community interest standpoint we're try to figure out a way is can we get access from North Second a South Second and should we think about having more Elbow Room on Magnolia because Magnolia driveway was identified numerous cases including at the public meeting as dangerous a lot of cars go through there only one access point and if have a bigger project still one driveway not a good idea so um the burrow did ask lrk myself to do a study to see these properties out L and yellow uh met the criteria are need to Redevelopment and it did and what that did in effect was it now expanded the ring designation to these properties as a reminder the 2021 plan only considers these three properties the Redevelopment concept that we're considering does not consider all those areas uh it does include Lots 13 and 19 which is the house on Magnolia as well as South thir but more importantly the two properties at the corner of South Second and ridan at this time we are not including lots 37 38 39 which is the Three Corner Lot U sorry three properties at the corner of M Town tables future Plaza because that particular those particular properties really needs another look probably a future plan uh needs a whole another uh study because of its relationship to Plaza so those are not in plan yet and frankly as far as I can tell Garden Holmes has not been able to some of those properties which is fine because I think as we discuss that needs a special Focus it's something for in the future so just to clarify one thing because it is confusing they are deemed areas in need of Redevelopment but for the purp purp of the amendment that you'll be contemplating soon we have not included them in the downtown Redevelopment plan amendment that is going to be proposed the that the corner of third there's two you know four Lots there so just don't be surprised if you don't see that because we think there's a lot we need to think about in conjunction with the plaza which we not there yet and that would make if we decide to go that route that would be a second project a different plan that would be addressed but it was worth the study so that if at a future date it makes sense we've got the designation we can we have all the tools in the tool box and just to be clear we included Lot 19 the house not because it has to be part of the plan it's because it design as a part of the expansion of the area we did discuss that potentially expanding access but the redeveloper has to be able to engage and purchase the product is not required and there's no condemnation power in our designation in this area area so they want to they voluntary participants in this plan if the developer thinks it's necessary and if they want to participate so but the access issues with those two lots we just felt let's keep them in because the Project's still taking shape yeah otherwise the plan will obiously the house it's a pered use and will remain near perpetu if they choose to U moving on to the original vision for traxi uh so if this is in directly taken from the vision statement in the current plan uh the primary purpose obviously it's the last sentence in the re development plan and the vision statement primary purpose is to bring more people to live work and Shop on MAR app really this applies to all four tracks but this is particularly important here um and with respect to the F own properties the concept was well it could be an infill with one or more taller mixed use or multif family buildings uh given the the break of the street way street angles this could be an opportunity to terminate the Vista that is drive down a lovely building the power feature perhaps um and some of the specific details in the vision statement included a connection from Rarity to Magnolia having a safe pass its way uh from a public Plaza to the parking area by the perform church and to magolia Street and comments about improving access visibility to that driveway um The Limited retail is intentional that's was mentioned in 21 plan because it's already not retail it's mostly office space um we want to focus more the retail environment at the corners uh especially closer to the South Third Plaza and in terms of uses a whole range of permitted uses as with the current Redevelopment plan and the current CBD Zoning for that matter obvious we're going to encourage Apartments because we do want people to live work in shop downtown uh but also allow for residential on the ground floor in terms of refining division so this is sort of a reaction to it got bigger right so it's like all right well what do we do we don't want to lose the vision um but frankly this is sort of like an exciting moment also scary because it's so such a big project in town we got to manage it right so this larger Redevelopment area means opportunities but also challenges and that's what we're trying to deal with in this amendment plan first thing is obviously preserve the initial intent of that Vision the taller building in the center of block uh additional public gathering spaces now possibility instead of small bur owned properties and maybe small space since it got so much bigger it's like well you can add more public spaces and Link it to the South Third Plaza uh provision for public parking before it was not really possible to consider a large number of public parking spaces uh now you have the ability to mandate it uh and that's part of the negotiation process and obviously with a larger footprint means we need to revise bulk regulations and design standards because if we took the existing standards and simply stretched it that be mistake and I wouldn't be surprised if you guys yelled at me and says get out of here what we were thinking because if we allow for four or five story buildings we do not want that at the corner right and we need some open space the building's bigger it needs to breathe a little bit so we have to think about light air and space between buildings especially residences and sort of dealing with the impervious coverage for that matter and that is really just trying to hone in right standards to allow for something like this still subject to negotiation ref find um as we indicated that the current plan allows for four and five stories but would be appropriate to extend it to South Second uh because it would Tower over the church the existing buildings a lovely two and half story building this is three and a half stories which is actually lower than what the current we plan allows verus four stories so we're trying to manage the size of building and pushing buildings parts of buildings back and so on and so forth and I'm just going to run through some Imes so the public reminder of like what are we trying to do again because we haven't looked at these pictures in a while these were before and after images that were shared at the public meeting so I'm not going to really say much other than just a reminder of uh the before and after so the these are some same Vantage Point as the colorcoded diagram U another another before and after so you notice that how close the um the building there is to the sidewalk with a larger building that's not appropriate so we got step it back so we have to rethink some of those standards since it's a bigger project uh with regards to the bulk regulation specifically so these are the meat this is the meat potatoes of the amendments that we're presently writing as we speak including after this meeting typing um so obviously need to adjust the Ming p and set facts it's not appropriate to just allow four and five stories everywhere um we do want to allow for the tallest story U massing at the center of the block which is really the intent of the 21 plan which is the burs and step it down as you get uh closer to north south second my mistake was up that um I didn't even notice it yeah I'm embarrassed all right it's okay maintain the Deep setback on Magnolia Street that 200 foot setback obviously important to all of us uh and has has to be maintain and continue to maintain that uh and we do want to continue that Urban setback sort of build to experience provide for a nice enclosure to the street uh there some of the comments from the meeting was like you you really need to think about three story massing that's sort of what the townhouse sort of replicates at three story Mass that's a good comment but also wide sidewalks and Street trees they are right we need to make sure that Street skate is designed appropriately absolutely ume since we're now really ripping up probably the entire sidewalk on R this the opportunity to do a bra so those are bulk regulations design standard just get we a bit but can I do one quick reminder just to put it in there is that that one of the things that we really did not want to do is have a massive one monolith going the entire way we didn't want that we they didn't the public didn't want that and you know so the the bulk standards and some of the things they talking about are really about setting off and setting so that it doesn't look like there is just this massive one a giant can a giant you know can so that that's they don't usually build buildings that way they no that's how they no I meant the way we want them we will build them the way don't want them if we don't we don't put specify that it has to be broken up and and set back and all those and I I should mention like what has been very good is this has been a partnership with garden homes their architect has work very closely with Chris on these amendments also you know this isn't you know so it's not like we're jamming some idea down their throats they're fully aware that these changes are coming and these are going to be their obligations that's why they presented the building they presented in June um but but we need to make sure all of our our Visions protected plan so CC has a great comment because that's the second bullet point adding standards that make sure the building's broken down into multiple and smaller form so the point where we're saying I'm I'm G to nerd out talk about design s but certain like standards got to nerd out so you get I love it so you have building standards that must be at least four different forms at least this wide and not this one and not wider than this distance so it's requiring a building be broken up uh into smaller forms and to make it really look like four or five different buildings were put together but allow for the the flexibility for a hallway and elevator system which will allow for efficiency and getting more units more affordable housing units and efficiency for parking um the addressing of the two levels of parking this is mainly a site specific condition but the plan will generally say um and emphasize the current standards that say provide accessibility not just access but what we heard was got to make sure that uh parking lot is accessible not just for Able Body person but really make it truly accessible in a case of two levels of parking that is a challenge for the developer but we're going to hold them to it we need to make sure there's accessibility mag Street as in visual interest in that uh walking uh Corridor um a couple comments from the public was got to make sure it doesn't look like a cavernous tunnel and add in some uh I think a comment was suggesting happing art on the walls or Windows or art art just like at writing uh those are great comments and and obviously part of that including Landscaping lighting and whatnot just make it safer and secur and all those things add security you know because it has to feel safe otherwise people aren't going to go through and then as as I implied earlier enhancing the building and streetcape design so that way the frontage is enjoyable and safe and that includes wider sidewalks uh something we want to talk about and explore with the shade tree advisory committee is to uh think about an improved tree print infrastructure including sort of treatment trains uh that will allow for additional Street trees to be planted and have support system for the roots to grow and not damage the sidewalks and it Forest a ton of landscaping throughout the building uh Foundation landscaping and shade trees roof decks with green roofs blue roofs and whatnot and other means of adding green imp struction a lot of comments talk about there's so much impervious surface not realizing there's a lot already impervious surface there now so this is an opportunity to sort of correct those condition and improve St War management and retention uh other comments which are not really in the plan sort of reminders uh so the pered uses already has flexibility and the public was saying you got to make sure it's flexible I will have to express uh well I'll profess that a little bit I wouldn't say the word inappropriate but we did throw out the idea like how about a two-story restaurant and some people said I don't know about that what about a theater a co-op space a market those are all great comments two St bre was just a pin it's like Draw Something Got reactions to that I do want to make it clear all those Concepts including a theater uh market and Co-op space flex space rental party room space were all permitted uses and frankly it would be a great idea and I'm glad to community is really think about those spaces um the again the lack of retail space is intentional because that was one of the comments that I think we heard in both in the slips of paper but in the meeting well why isn't there more retail but that was from the beginning a strategy we may or may not utilize every we may go a different way on track day the Future Track D you know we're gonna take it but I I still maintain I think it was the right call and we don't Envision outside of the corners it it really but we do have a lot of public space on that Frontage that we're going to have to work on programming and important to support our current Merchant and that be said there's nothing in the plan that limits the retail space so it's going to respond to the market yeah but the initial concept is keep the retail activity the corners uh and of course affordable housing will continue to comply and it looks like we're GNA just head right into the fourth round warn numbers maybe head to the fifth round yay and that's pretty much it is that the last one yeah it is great uh council members questions basically Jason sorry oh sorry so I was just gonna say I mean I don't a common question but I think the takeaway here is that they presented um a very nice kind of image of what they're planning to do there that was informed by our um original Concepts and goals um and the changes that we're going to make here to that were considering here tonight are really to kind of um tie up all the Loose Ends and sort of uh make it uh a requirement that will ensure that we actually get a final product that resembles kind of what they propose again informed by our decisions and with a few tweaks kind of like really make sure it captures our vision so it sounds good to me and they're Community Based tweets too most important right um I did also want to add part of the beauty of the plans we've been writing which is got on T from our Redevelopment attorney is we've written one of General Provisions part portion of the plan really this is really nerdy um but we require a Redevelopment agreement to be executed prior to submission of the cyc so Terry has to be happy with project you guys have to be happy we are happy with that so there's a double there there two things helping support and protect the public this also helps the public understand we heard we're we're maintaining the Integrity of what we want to try to achieve in the plan it also helps the planning board because eventually it will land on their laps and they'll have a updated plan to compare to what gets submitted um so so um yeah so basically we're going to be updating this baby um but we're focusing on track SE and there will be a day hopefully not too far distant future where we're going to be coming back to talk have a community meeting about track day and talk about the Amendments we may need they'll be different but there will be some uh to to effectuate that project so this is also a good kind of dry run and kind of how we intend to um move on these you know moving forward you want to just remind everybody the process of it goes to us apping to you know just so that we know yeah I think it's a good point because so Chris and I will work on the draft Joe's office will review it'll come to your uh laps to review and hopefully feel comfortable at introducing the Amendments we propose there'll be a a introduction of an ordinance basically is an ordinance Amendment then it gets referred to the planning board for master plan consistency review um I'm optimistic that because we are we now have an adopted plan we're really just I I think they'll see the consistency uh pretty straightforward um especially with Chris there to kind of walk them through what the the amendments are then they they have to basically sign off as it not inconsistent then you can have a public hearing and a vote at a future meeting so there's a lot of process to come there'll be a presentation at the planning board of the amendments in a lot more detail um certainly at the time of introduction the revised plan one thing I'll just put it out there we were debating could we do like a track change version but we think it's going to look like like garbage because of the the edits and things that are going because we're actually moving some sections around so what we're going to do is kind of have a onepage key so that people can just identify where the new areas are so that we make it easier for people to find and they don't have to hunt and pack also for ourselves um so we'll try to make it as easy and transparent um for people to see where the changes are we so we introduce and then first and second reading because it's the ordinance if you introduce with is the first reading then it goes to the planning board that's the way you can also send it to the planning board and then introduce but our process has typically been introduced refer to the planning board assuming it's successful comes back to the council for the public hearing and then ultimately on the vote so we did map it out that conceivably if we introduce in October we could make it by the December meeting but we have to make sure everybody's comfortable with the proposal but I don't think I hope you come came away from Chris's points with there's no real surprises here we're really talking about changing the the the plan to better implement the vision that we now we have a more specific Vis we heard we went we heard we listened and we made the adjustments as the resident suggested as and just we have a strong incentive to get it done by December right because if we goes over the calendar year there's a an issue well you got we have to reintroduce Sky doesn't fall but it also just holds up you know implementation and hopefully market conditions are improving for developers and that we're going to want to we want to we want to light a fire under this one right you know and so you know we don't want um I don't want to call it's not bureaucratic that sounds negative like but we don't want to let this you know this could slow us down if what we're trying to get to is a construction schedule you know um and we still have the hard work of negotiating that redeveloper agreement if there's going to be a financial agreement the terms of that doing all the evaluation so there's a lot of steps to come and those are likely next year things but if we can at least get the plan where it needs to be that's one major item out of the way so to get us one step closer to implementation right the goal is try to get as much as we can done this year done and so next year we can start in the next people have been waiting it's you know we had our meeting in June and you know it was a little bit of juggling on our part to finally drill down and get get specific so um just we want to make sure everybody remembers it's com okay any other questions see that there's none great so uh to get to the next level of detail and hopefully we'll have a draft for your review before you know cool the last item is the zoning map um update which um I'll do a quick uh introduction um we stumbled into uh the need to do a a zoning map update there were a couple of ordinances in 2004 that were passed by prior governing bodies and prior planners and town administrators uh that never were incorporated into the officials zoning map and I do have just for everybody's benefit um a picture of the map it's sof I'll let you kind of speak to the coordinates because I know you've been working on that but essentially we need to do this and we also want to I'm looking I'm trying to talk and look at the thing at same time uh we need to while we're updating the Zony map why don't we add in some of our more recent Redevelopment areas so that it's very clear and I'll let um sop maybe and the CH speak to that um I'll put the map up on the screen um I want to repeat everything at Tera because that's exactly what is going on um you know what happens you know and so we're just gonna gonna fix it and so um the 2004 I I give a little bit of a history in in our draft ordinance that you're gonna see hopefully on our sorry it'll go away yeah on their first reading next Chris did a really an amazing job I really want to commend him because not only did he Implement what needed to be passed back in 2004 he's now went in and I'm went into incredible detail too um nothing's been missed and thankfully um and I don't know if you guys have been back to I think it's attachment 4 right in the in your code we have yeah we have a 200 19 zoning map that's there so everything from 2019 including the 2004 and then everything forward is now going to be on this map so really happy about it um I'm a little oldfashioned with with all the notice stuff that we had to do but we're letting everybody know that hey um Everybody passed the ordinances everybody saw everything the map got lost so here we are um and I think can you maybe walk through the key change the key 2004 amendments that we're incorporating sure uh the 2004 amendment was adopted by ordinance 1633 2004 we're talking 20 years ago oops never made it on its way to the 2014 map so when I did the 2019 map I didn't know um and this is actually discovered when I was doing research on the 81017 a couple months ago um so in 2004 there were three main changes there were several properties in the SE District on Woodbridge Avenue that were rezoned to CBD which sort of coinci it's coincident with the well generally coincident with the Main Street hland park uh bu District boundary so it actually does stretch towards heads in that direction so there's less pink and more red so these red Lots I don't know if you can see the FES yeah so here went from commercial to CBD which offers a little more flexibility in certain areas second change was on Cleveland Avenue there was a small strip of properties on Southeast Corner basically Madison those properties were light industrial they're actually professional office yes for the past 20 years we just figured it out um the Third change was there was a parcel actually have to the top left um that the property just generally in the rec Reserve area was in the I foret which zone it was I think it was Rae it was it was Recreation and conservation and it is now Recreation conservation as it should have been and which is pretty much what we all thought it was it just hadn't made it to yeah and the last change was the stream Corridor uh protection overlay is overlay and that's with respect to the flood Hazard line 100 Year buffer and a 50 foot buffer from Rian P so you see a blue hatched line along the well and the Mill Brook as well as I think a long generally along R River that's all within the corridor overlay a map was prepared by chasing companies back in 2004 but it was a different map and it's hard copy buried in this office actually it wasn't buried it was like on top it was there but no one knew it was there now digital map it's also good information for development so it's we added in four our goal going forward I promise every single revelop plan we do will include an update to the map yeah nice that way so you can see we've now added um you know 420 to 424 upper riton 810 more second um so this is I think good cleanup that we're doing and hopefully we would like to move on this at the next meeting so you see thank you both that that that definit literally fell through the cracks so thank you for cleaning she's right does happen gone to different towns oops it was the due diligence you were doing as part of the A10 second plan that were realiz change sh more importantly is long the zoning officer zoning officer but just zoning board we should just send it to them as courtesy when we meet again yes any additional questions on this okay seeing that there's none now we'll go to public comments uh public comments now it's time for public discussion total 21 minutes 3 minutes maximum first Speaker comments from the members of public attending in person will be heard first followed by those attending on zoom and we have no members from the public attending in person do we have anyone on Zoom I do see a hand up mayor um get my glasses on uh Jonathan learner if you could just confirm it's you for us that's me hi there hi uh I have two questions um regarding the um the the uh setback of the parking on Magnolia Street along with uh what was referred to as a two-story parking deck I I don't recall seeing two stories in the plans unless I missed it uh but where is this twostory parking deck going to be sitting number one and number two uh the additional plot that you're looking to acquire that leads out to South Third will that be an additional point of egress from the property in the parking area on to South Third um just Mr learner we typically will let you rattle all any questions or comments out and then if the mayor will close public comment and then the mayor will direct one of us to respond to you so do you have any other questions and then we'll we'll come back around no that's just those two okay okay anyone else um all right uh any other questions for those of you at home no no wor now I'm going to close now I move to close the public session of this meeting second all in favor yes George yes yes yes counc yes counc M yes Terry as to Mr learner's question about this the two story parking space sure um and Mr learner if um I'm happy to follow up with you afterwards I have some illustrations I could show you to explain this better than I can probably say it but I will do my best if you came to the public meeting uh but the if even if you didn't there's uh graphics on our website from the meeting um essentially it's a two Lev parking structure but it's taking advantage of topography so there's one entrance off South Second and it's a lower level of parking which is really at grade at that point and then there's another level of parking but the access point is off Magnolia the two levels don't speak to each other so it's not like a a garage where you can circulate from the lower level to the upper level um and that's what we presented in June but I I recognize that's a it's a tricky con uh concept to get your head around so there's a access off South Second to the lower level of parking and access off Magnolia from uh for the upper level but it doesn't read like two stories I guess is what I'm trying say but I do have some uh some uh images I can share with you if you want to shoot me an email or give me a call we'll set up a time I'm happy to do that um and then the other question regarding the South's thirdd property I believe you're referring to I forget the lot number Chris the deeper one that we there are no specific plans with respect to that property it would if the potential to negotiate even the rear yard purchase of the rear yard might square off and make the parking situation a little neater in the rear of the building uh but that's something that really the developer would have to negotiate with that property owner and it kind of is it's going to be a financial decision because we believe the project can move forward without that property but the idea behind that was potentially rear yard access and maybe even negotiating a pathway from South third through which would facilitate actually access to the church but also to the to development again would have to be negotiated with the private property owner um uh but we didn't want to not include the that lot because we thought there was some Merit to that um and we didn't want to have to come back and amend just to add those that lot and the other lot off Magnolia similarly there's no current plans I think to incorporate them into the final design however we think there might be some reasons they might want to and we'd rather have it in there again not something we can compel any property owner to participate so that I hope that answers but um I think you may have my contact your name is very familiar so please reach out I'm happy to go into it a little more with you okay now I move for an adjournment second all in favor thank you all um just a quick reminder community Forum um on October 8 6:30 by Irving school so we can meet vacation be Upstate New York I accept I think she sent the did anybody see a black notebook I lost my black notebook