[Music] [Music] [Laughter] [Music] [Music] [Laughter] all right so I will call this meeting to order adequate notice of this meeting has as required by the open public meetings Act of 1975 has been providing an annual notice to the home news trib The Star Ledger Highland par planet he talk no post subsequent to the January 4th 2024 meeting and posted in the lobby of the bur Hall of Highland Park thank you okay sorry all righty you think I didn't put it on the agenda but Ur to me miss here maybe could just do a quick round of introduction Stephanie you haven't seen you in a while yeah so we'll go around and do introductions my name is lenda Holt I am the vice chair of uh this board unfortunately uh HP could not join us this evening she had a work commitment that to to decent I'm Dian Ray I'm the uh landlord member of this um organization and [Music] um and yeah I'm Paul De I'm a home owner in the town my name is Stephanie Kim Chan I'm your Council leison um so it's good to be back um we we haven't met and then I think when I left out you guys were just selecting the chairs and vice chairs so I'm glad that's still going and we do need one we do have open more spots so at home attendant alternate y yep attendant alternate so well I just I getting ready for this meeting I was like I thought it was cool no you've been out so now you're back on the hope for it uh Terry H Bor administrator and staff to the board um hi I'm s Misha and um I am Bor attorney in the r leveling board attorney nice to meet all and I would encourage everybody to speak up a little because that mic's doing all the work so just to make sure everybody can hear and we do have some people in the audience so all right fantastic thank you so much and thanks everyone for being here the first order of BU business is the approval of the minutes which were sent out these are the minutes from our January 25th 2024 meeting if everyone could either review them if you haven't or if you prepare to um approve them let me know I do have one question for you sure um in the second bullet under hearing of appeals I think there's a maybe a typle okay um it just says he suggested the board considers setting bad precedent it sounds like like maybe yes so I will fix that typo in second paragraph Just tiny little thing it just sounds like the board I we don't want to create bad bus that's not the intent thank you for catching that just a little tiny tiny so I will amend that uh prior to finalizing and sending it to the cler Fantastic all right so do I have a motion to approve the minutes with that one correction thank you paen second thank you all right so all in favor of approving the minutes with the one correction you just mentioned I fantastic so the minutes from the last meeting have been approved the next next order of business we have some discussion the last the cone hardship appeal um that was the first time we've been through that process so at today's meeting we just like to discuss what lessons were learned are there things that we feel like we need to do differently or what went well so if we could just address that some discussion about that would be fantastic and really helpful as we go forward and hopefully learned a lot from that process I I do want to say one thing about that particular process and this was mentioned at the last meeting a lot of the challenges that the landlord and the tenants were experiencing were just the result of the fact that the rent ordinance um the rent leveling why am I not saying the words that went into effect while they were negotiating their increase and so I think that kind of threw lch in the plans at the landlord property had and the tenants been well wait a minute there's this new ordinance that just passed so I don't that's not going to happen again so that's one thing that certainly created a bit of a problem so and I just had one um observation I think the landlords got a little uh on the defensive because they thought we were coming at them so I don't know if we can we have to find a way probably to talk about ourselves where as opposed to talking when the group is here and we have to just be careful how we come over yeah so that was just an observation I had yeah and I'll just throw in i i the question was raised to your point could we have a sidebar and um I shouldn't speak for the attorney but the attorney at the time was like no you have to do it so I want to just confirm that you we can't have private discussions about so I think your point is right think about our tone right and how it feels to be on both sides yes because I think they got a little offended at well I don't know there were some things that were said that were that were like um we you should have done or whatever and we have to avoid that tone so you guys going go in executive SE not for that kind of thing not for that okay but that's a good point and in redoing the minutes I was reminded I did go back to the tape and I was like oh yeah I kind of remember that right aome anything else what did they get get to us that case that was one where I believe the tenants heard about the ordinance and the works and I and this is stretching a memory because it went it goes back aways because you remember they had to wait 12 months before they could come in so and I believe they because I got calls from both the tenants and the landlord either immediately before or after the w but it was at the start kind of like you were saying lenda and um but my sense was that it might have been that the tenants were the ones who brought the ordinance to the attention I don't know I didn't think to ask them how'd you find out about it you know um you know but that I think was and that was frankly the intent of this ordinance was to be an a tool for tenants to advocate for themselves so in that regard I guess it did what it was supposed to do um um but I I can't I'd have to go back to my email threads to tell you the exact timeline yeah so so this uh property owner was negotiating the S the sale the purchase right at the time that the ordinance was going I think they had already bought it oh they already yes so I think they owned it but they were figuring it out or I I don't want to swear to that but I I think it was Prior but certainly it's reasonable to think they would have no idea about this brand new ordinance being in place as out of town people coming and buying a property as an investment so I'm sure they were surprised by it have we had other requests by Bes aside from that group have we had other there have been it's been difficult to track I know you had requested it because the calls come in and then they they seem to resolve in terms of tenants calling with questions we give them the information and suggest that they provide the material to their landlord and most often or not we don't hear from them again which I presume means it got resolved which is the intent again um there have been some other questions actually someone in the audience here tonight has has approached me on a matter he might speak later so I won't speak for him uh about doesn't qualify for a hardship as a but you know it we're looking at you know is the search charge uh for Capital Improvements a possibility uh it's the little different scenario so I don't want to get out ahead of that but um it hasn't been particularly busy in terms of inquiries a couple questions about where can I find the allowable increase those are all the usual usual questions we get per before the new orance so this was the only actually case or appeal you guys yes just the first one okay and that was a landlord hardship uh petition okay you have your thoughts comments and I just wanted to know that the the board did very very well with being the fir while it was the first time I was in such a situation and with everybody else help I thought that we did Justice to the problem I think we did yeah I think took a while to get there took a while to but easy situation complicated situation yes it was very complicated so so what happens likeing the I mean not reliving but you essentially vote Yes No are we going to do it go through all their records about the cost to operate the oh really oh yeah and they had had to they had an attorney oh wow I this is for the first one for youre I will but but essentially the board really had to Grapple with the ordinance which was not particularly specific about how to reconcile especially make a compromise of course you could just go no yeah you could go yes and be done but this there was a sense that I'm sorry if I'm putting words but I did just watch the meeting uh in your moue but it's uh here's what the landlord wanted here's what our ordinance said and they kind of took it into two parts was there agreement that there might be a hardship because of the ordinance intervening in this transaction and the answer was something yes maybe so then they pursued well what would be a Fair Way keeping in mind the tenants and this is protecting the tenants but also trying to accommodate some of the hardship that the landlord was feeling um and so they they basically came to a a solution and whether or not the landlord likes it that was the solution and the tenants seemed they were very present throughout this process seemed to be okay with you know I'm sure they would rather not but you know ultimately where it landed in the end no one got everything right everybody got something yeah so I think that was a that was the way it was resolved I don't know if those tenants are still there or I would assume I mean I I don't know that I would know otherwise because life happens people move on for other reasons um but you know I did after that meeting you know kind of closed out with the with their attorney and you know summarized what here was what you have to do and make sure you give the notice and so those tenants I think were armed pretty well with their if if things were not going the way we had all discussed I think we would have heard about it so I'm I'm encouraged I'm hoping everybody's living happily and you know moving on and you know as young new investment property owners I think they learned and there was also the complication of everything was a level money wise with the apartments there were smaller one a bigger one the the ten the tenants say were saying he didn't give us this he didn't give us that so it was lot somewhere somewhere some he wanted to raise some specific amount other stuff so we had to go through everything oh through apartment by apartment yes yes so Department was handled individually yes so so that was a good lesson that we need to that's probably a good approach yes I think yes I think that future reference do do we need to update the ordinance probably not for that that might be more the application to just try to gather that information how to gather and I have learned like what I would ask for again yeah given the confusion in some of the documentation materials and stuff like that and that's actually one of the things that we'll be picking softness brain as a she comes to us having worked in other towns on their rent control boards and so she's already kind of looked through the ordinance at like a high level just to see and some other areas when we get to that item on the agenda we have a couple areas where we're gonna not get into the solution tonight but kind of highlight some areas we may want to tighten up so why don't we just move to that unless there are other comments about Lessons Learned I think we could move to that the agenda all right so uh presential ordinance amendments and I I think um s you think we have some thoughts about that um well I'm GNA first let Terry lead it and then I'll supplement her because um you know there are some things that we just on his face right that so so Terry you want to start on my mind one thing we stumbled into uh during uh not related but somewhat related matter that I can't get into right now um the they pointed out to us uh some language in our ordinance pertaining to enforcement and I don't have the citation I can maybe you can find that while I'm talking but essentially in a case where you know we wanted language in the ordinance that said landlords can't increase can't put pressure on the tenants to leave if you know as a FR you know because they're frustrated by the constraints of our ordinance that's my characterization of language is much more legal and different than that but it puts unfortunately for me I have a role in a harassment matter that really from what sna says is not appropriate and that's really more of a criminal law enforcement matter and so that's language and if she can find the section she can call it out that we need to fix because I was somebody was basically like well doesn't the Bro administrator I'm getting harassed and I'm going I can't invest at a harassment claim between a llord and a tenant that's really a law enforcement matter and it was something that this person quoted at us and I go I know it says that but I can't do that and you're gonna have to have to refer you know if you feel that's happening you must report it and there's a process to follow so that's an area where it's is that um on page six I'm looking well you better go by go by the like 321 Dash everybody's got a different okay I'm looking at 321 Dash six and there's another one 32120 too I I remember because there was two correct there two sections correct and there's one place in which it says the buau administrator his shall have the power in addition to the powers to file a complaint in Municipal Court yeah and stuff like that and that's I'm sorry uh that was 3216 D6 c yeah just some Powers conveyed to me as administrator that probably were not appropriate so that's a sopna was like and that kind of landed on us because it got quoted to us and we were going yikes and I don't think I appreciated it at the time uh when we were adopting the ordinance so um you'll have to provide us with some some clarifying or more appropriate language and what was the other spot the the other spot was um oh my God I lost my trans going through that I was thinking about the other section the other section was we were talking about um other requirements for hardship and the application and then which you already mentioned before and then there was um no I thought you meant there was two spots with that bur administrator oh yeah oh that one yeah the other one is 21 section 20 32120 yeah 20 it's um yes protection from tenant fromation that's I had in my head that basically again the B administrator you know protection of so here's the good intention is there you're not allowed to harass it's no no no yeah the broch or design does not have the Juris to accept or make any ten yeah so this is inconsistent with the previous statement yeah so this is more appropriate probably yes to what should happen but somehow that squeaked in in that early section yeah um so we want to fix that and then the ask question yeah there was an error actually David and the audience pointed out a a misstatement in a frequently Asked question which is not legally but it's certainly not it's not it's not helpful to a landlord uh trying to do the right thing so um I don't have it in front of me to site but the gist of it was that you know if there's a question of a hard like of the rent being appropriate go ahead and pay the higher amount until we fix it and that was not the attend so I have to get that cage out of there um there there were some other areas oh I'll let Diane I think you said you had some thoughts no you know what you were just talking about I had this rent increase bulleting and it did say that um uh then I cannot raise the rent while the lease exists but if he if it's an unconscionable raise you should pay the old rent until it's resolved so that might have been the intent of what they that FAQ language was but instead it came off like pay the bigger amount and we'll work it out later which was never it's not in the ordinance so it's just wrong and um it could lead the landlord to a position of getting in trouble because they've now violated the ordinance and we don't want that either right so we'll fix that that I don't need a formal action to do that was mainly a guidance that I can but we should and I'll distribute it to everybody maybe with fresh eyes after having lived with the ordinance it be a good idea to review the FAQ um and then there was the applications we were talking about but that on a high level yeah we get we get allow a lot of that to happen administratively in the ordinance and I would suggest we do that because then every time we want to make a tweak to the application we don't have to amend the ordinance to do that we can just establish the procedure so one of the applications that's we want to update the landlord hardship appeal uh but the other thing is we have a provision for Capital Improvement sear charge and the ability to make an application but we don't have an application form and so s is gonna help me propose something to you guys um you know we can we'll make it work in the meantime if something comes through we'll follow the ordinance but uh we need to have that in hand so we're not just caught with you know it's just everything was a rush to get get rolling with the ward um the other area we had talked about previously um and sop you I'm not going to ask you answer this now but we questioned or members of the board questioned and I don't have a strong feeling about the CPI use of the CPI and various other data sources to establish the annual increase so if there's a more conventional way to do it or a more precise way to do it or a better way or a different way whatever you want to put to it that was something I would I think the board would really welcome your advice on because we know there's more than one way to some towns just go no more than 5% correct and that's it you're done see you later we've always had something that was a little more year-to year based on CPI but there's a lot we don't understand as staff members about CPI that's not our we're not you know statisticians so and I know that's something HP would want to weigh in on because I know she was bringing that up previously but just as we're making a list of things to think about I would throw that on um that's that's the only things I had kind of front of Mind anyway um yeah and I you know I have some other CS that are more of a policy and I will defer to obviously all of you on what direction you want to take on some other point I mean they're not the end of the world if we'll do them but as time goes on if that's something that you guys want to do because you guys by the way have an excellent ordinance as it is and it's very fair but um there may be some other things ideas that you may have what you may consider for example and that goes back to the application process on when you're calculating some these things so what other either for hardship or Capital Improvements or what have you there may be other factors or considerations I think you know that's something that you know if there's something that's binding Us in in know uncomfortable way in this I want to know but I think if the more flexible it seemed like having a little flexibility was helpful and coming up with a compromise so if we make it too rigid yeah that's my that's the only downside is that it's easier because now we don't spend two meetings talking about it uh but the flip side is it kind of means we can't be a little context you know sensitive yeah but I I could see both sides and certainly any recommendations from this Bo or then you know Stephanie would bring to her committee uh to get their opinion on um and but you know we already talked live it live it for a year and it'll be a year before you know it so and we really started last year um so I just didn't want to lose track of that and because it takes a while to develop the Amendments if we're g do yeah and then has and yeah there's first the work of this group getting happy with it and then the work of Stephanie and the committee and then the council it's two meetings you know if it's something we'd want for example if there was something really uh related to that CPI that we don't like well we're gonna have to certify the rate by October so we need to get moving on that this summer you know to just give you a sense of um and my preferen is to kind of not have to do it a million you know slice and dice this over and over but if we have to focus on one and do that and then focus on the next we can do that too it's not the end of the world okay do you have any thoughts amendments to the ordin poti have a couple of questions one is how does the ordinance dovetail with a portable hous we are encouraging affordable housing we're also limiting um the units would be under rent control I mean does it can you explain that a little more new construction are you talking about the ordinance exempts new construction by state law okay so new so any of our redevelopments when they come to pass they will not have to follow this ordinance for 30 years what about uh all of the luxury apartments I guess I'm thinking and this is me just thinking that people who are paying $3500 a month $4,000 a month for a luxury apartment do they really need our rank control I mean but then you're talking about income qualifying basically now you're getting into a whole level of program management because this kind of came up with the last you know so should we take into consideration the income their ability to pay and I think the decision was to back off it and I guess I'm wondering are you suggesting if you can pour 3500 really I guess I'm thinking Mary Wald and Frederick and these are brand new places there people are paying a lot of rent I was always under the impression that rent control was to protect the middle income um tenant the low income middle income the tenant who um might get um exploited really and that the rent control was to protect that tenant I mean it came about because of Linda's uh bringing attention bringing her situation to the council's attention that she had a 50% rent increase that was uh you know an unconscionable renting we haven't had other um situations like that that we know of I I just wonder if we're I mean over beg to differ the last application those were pretty big rent increases and some pretty moderate Apartments that's true they were those were not luxury those were not luxury but I think more than once it was mentioned that that that that was their business plan their business plan was to go in and raise everybody and um and they were new landlords they had yeah they were in I know I'm not saying it to be like they were bad I just I mean I guess I use that as an example of it can happen you know and that is what the ordinance is doing I guess those luxury apartments they really are these new places that this ordinance doesn't apply it doesn't apply a merry world are always what there's a statue I think it's in that we quoted in here we got a little grief about it and we had to explain to people no that's not us that's the state statute you know when we were adopting it I don't know where it is in here but there's there's I guess it was in the 80s or something I guess they were trying to encourage they don't get it yeah but point is if you can afford to pay that amount of money do you think they would need us I guess I would I think it gets real complicated if you start to say only Apartments that are valued at X or less this applies to because then everybody will just Jack the rents up but what I was thinking is how did you how were the mechanics of that what I was thinking is I let me see how I should explain this I don't think they're gonna come here that's my thought like they are in the group where they can afford to pay that and if there was something between them and the landlord I think they would get it worked out so I'm just thinking that that that kind of renter would wouldn't really be looking for the rent control board but I might be wrong but well I guess putting the specific developments oh sorry go ahead I'm I'm just wondering if we don't need a mission statement like what is our mission what who are what are we what is our goal see is your is your Ving this is shining star yeah this is entire statute just on run control so the the provisions of this ordinance are here if you're suggesting that there needs to be like the whereases I wonder if when we adopted it they were there and they're just not here in your version so I could certainly pull that out you know whereas it's important to keep us affordable to all the M there might have been language like that in the you know introductory language I don't know I've got to go back it's been a while um well maybe that's what's missing maybe that's what you um I guess one area and it came up in a conversation I had with sop now that something you said Pauline I'm curious you know I pondered like well what would it happen if someone negotiated like somebody had a really low rent and they knew it and they wanted to be nice to the landlord I don't know why you would but let's say that could happen technically you'd be violating our ordinance as a landlord if you pass along that rent increase right um and the concern and so part of me was thinking well maybe that well if they got a deal they made a deal and it's you know but then how do you know that it's not pressure it was a pressure T you know how do you know that they really consented to that increase of their you know I don't you understand what I'm saying so you hit on that made me think of that question I had for sopna recently and I go oh I don't know that's a good point um and we even said who would want to pay more if they don't have to um but I guess I I want to go back to your point Diane or try to understand it a little better because you know I think the idea is that that that just nobody should have their cost of living go up too fast regardless of what they're paying um and so this establishes a Baseline and and it makes it you know you can be control upon and then they can readjust to the market at that point it doesn't apply to what right now are more luxury properties because the way the statutes work we don't um but you know and and eventually they won't be our in 25 years they won't be our fanciest places or maybe they will be I don't know um but I'm just trying I want to make sure I understand your I I kind of understand it because you know but I even if I could afford to pay 3,000 3500 a month I don't know that it's fair that my rent could go up 10% without any protection for nothing changing you know you know what I think is a larger issue is people not being aware of the ordinance I see that being a larger issue where I I hear about people moving out and they just didn't know absolutely that's that's I tracking it know we don't even know who's under rent control well and I don't every nobody everybody's under rent control until it's been decontrolled correct and decontrol happens upon vacancy so we this was on purpose we don't want to be in the managing of units business with 50% of our town being rental so lot it's never you can never be accurate I mean I know it I worked in new Browns next to the rent control lady 25 years ago yeah she she's just doing her best you know the the the the I think to your point and one of thing I know HP wanted to talk about so I didn't put it on the agenda but we can certainly talk about it is just awareness raising both with landlords and with tenants there's certainly more we can do um and to talk about and get ideas for what we could do better as a board or even as for staff you know to make sure that's very uh apparent um well that that's what I that's what I was talking about that that email um but he and HP had been having a side conversation and he had asked if they could talk about it here but she's not here so I didn't want to put it on not exactly knowing what that was um well maybe we can have that on the agenda for the next would be great to but I I feel pretty strong strongly we don't want to get into like because we don't even know all of our rentals Dian you know that because not everybody registers and we don't have the capacity it's sort of the volt program rent control at this point is it's kind of the landlord lets us know the good news is the the large complexes yes are of which we have many yes it's the smaller landlord they I believe are following it because they're not they have too much at stake to to not absolutely and so it's really I think and it's for the smaller landlords that are just doing it because they just happen to own a property or two that don't pay attention to the regulatory dayto days of a municipality um that we have to make sure they know because most of them want to do the the rules they're not looking to not and certainly as we're discovering rentals we weren't aware of we're making them aware of the ordinance if they didn't already and making sure they get their cosos and register their properties with us so we do that on an ongoing basis but once we have them we know they're there um until it sells and maybe somebody moves in you know that's owner occupied so it's it's it's a lot of units as I to tell you um to keep track of um and I don't think I think it's a Fool's errand to think we could keep track especially when we have vacancy decol yeah the value of doing so I think is less because if you had a more complicated scheme where upon vacancy now you can raise it 5% well then you really need to know what it was then you need to know what the new rents were show me the lease all that stuff which I don't we don't have the capacity we don't have the capacity and I don't think that was the intent of the council at the time um you know we really wanted but I would like to be able to figure out how to help landlords do the right thing and by our ordinance regardless if you like it or not and how to help tenants know about it just so they because they'll help the landlords do the right thing too you know because a lot of the ones they they didn't know or they were trying to get over okay oops I didn't know now I don't um so so shall we move on to the next order of business pending applications there are none I just wanted to I just keeping that as a kind of a a standing thing we may have a capital Improvement SE charge I don't know but we're we'll just have to see how if that emerges in the next few weeks or not and then s and I will work together on pulling the materials together and uh you know we'll get them to you in advance and you tenants will have to be notified and all the usual you know requirements um so yeah I just wanted to I kind of had it from the last one I let me just leave it on there yeah I know I think that's great okay thank you all right so I think we can uh open up the public comment period unless there's anything else you need to address okay so do you want to speak members of the you have to come to the mic so we can get you on the recording okay oh I see okay stand right here because this microphone will pick I have it there just because I that's way I have the camera my name is h i i r the 101 sou Second Avenue I live in pway I'm a small landord okay I own property in Highland Park two of them and sever in pway three in new Bron week um I don't have overhead basically I don't have mortgage and I learned from the YouTube how to fix things for example the other day I go to my tant the open did not work so I Chang the igniter I find out the the the model number and go to find on the internet what is the model model number for the igniter $40 without doing this I could pay 600 for new new so so I don't have overhead so what happened I believe many are like me uh very little overhead so he can afford to reduce rent by $200 to get a good tenant right say I put the rental age on little normally for my my apartment three bedroom one and a half bed in high and Par in the so Second Avenue close to to the lock campus comen um you know you can see what other property with 1,150 square fet you can see other Z Rental Edge and then you try to reduce $200 then you get a lot of attention and you R out in one week really one week my r g I don't mind I have no overhead I so I don't mind lose you know lower but after a few years you see this is my market rental apartment now my rental is $200 below that after a few years become $500 I was not careful so I doesn't make me a fo I mean I can be a kind of guy but $500 doesn't make me a I try to move up 300 oh that bump into R control you see for example right now I learn very well to do 10 them I learn 1950 per month 1950 for three bedroom one and a half bed 1,150 square fet and um I hired um sensory 21 JJ l to get give me market analysis because I told her name is um laen leev very high ranking probably you don't know JJ La JJ La should know High Park because that's there basis here and um um L level is very high ranking that's so I suppose is it's credible so but I told um Lauren leevy maybe maybe leevy that this going to give to the Highland Park um officers so he's very care she's very careful giving me a market analysis and it shows the rent should be B 2,300 and 2500 now I Le to my 10 1950 and the analysis let's simply put the average $2,400 I mean that's a huge difference right almost $500 so I so I want to raise the rent to 2,200 because I still want to give $200 below the market rent that's way I can get a a better tenant and they won't try to leave and renew the Le you know the big house to get new T and stuff and uh so so I sub my then was was rejected I come here to present my case because I think my case is not unique there are some landlords who pay off everything very little overhead so so give a $200 below the market then and suddenly the pic make other people jump so high and he found out he has huge difference he come up one to to increase it that doesn't work because current the current framework of the ordinance allow appears only two ways either you have heart seat you know the tend this don't have hardship otherwise he won't lose $200 for is mean impossible for like you like me who is reducing $200 around the market and still have the hardship you won't do that of course he there no Cas and another is capital Improvement but what if this land La do not have FAL Capital Improvement they come no no way no appear so I come here present a solution you will think about is a Ser appear I I give a very simple name it's a we have appeal method number one is how um L of hardship appeal we have appear method then two Capital future Capital Improvement then appear now I I think think about the S three however I think about how to make it workable we don't want the 10,000 l or come out with this Things become un unworkable I have some idea we can call I simply call this land law fail rent [Music] to non hardship tenants appear then La fail R to non hardship tenant tenant appear basically L law buil the burden to prove what is the fail R that's a tricky question many real can can can can come up with high numbers it has to be a very rep good reputation you to very good reputation recognize the very honest what is the fail then second uh what is non hardship tant that's another tricky question do you think my my I can describe her do you think she's a non hardship tenant she earns only a few hundred she attend attend half of Psych psychc psychology department and she sometimes that's part of her PhD PhD program she take some patients you know talk to the patient some suicid suicid of patient she $100 per per month so so you say okay that's very hardship but inity she Le my apartment alone $1 1950 she Le her previous apartment $3,000 in in new BR high rise mod than building $3,000 alone and she has two 2,00 $200,000 in the bank because she sent me application I have this is she has she but her family so rich she can afford $3,000 ining a asper high power so in my case she is not a so that's why I say hardship is this hardship tendance it's difficult that's another difficult what is the fail R is difficult what is hardship is difficult if if you put the ordinance to to allow this land law um fail R to non hardship tenant out a, people will come to appear the land come we this place were overcrowded with with and you have to put a limit only number three only will be very serious difference between the after rent control and the market value is allowed to appear for example in my case my current rent is 1950 after the rent of control appli 3.8% is 2024 but the market value could be 2ou 2 2,500 uh only if after the rent control the amount is significant less than the previous number one establish Market R the is allowed to appear only if you apply the S condition you can cut down maybe only a few otherwise you have a huge number of people I want to read the text my T tell me so some crocodile tears then after very heavy uh appreciation then uh he said it is a Ste of let me see let me see actually I'm not too much concerned with how I win the case I don't I do not have overhead even I do not get my case that's fine but make people make a good ordinance to let me see let me see oh yeah yeah yeah yeah so say thank you so much for the update regarding the this I'm sorry to hear that they didn't not approve your increase believe me she not sorry that's prop tear and I have said previously I greatly appreciate your generosity and the leas that we have agreed upon I'm aware that this is a Ste this is honest he said this is a Ste of an apartment that's the Hest thing I heard it is a a 2500 Market apartment she got 2024 and then he said I'm so appreciative that I got to to resde in it okay so you get an idea a very serious Injustice is done I was mocked okay so that's why I come we we we think about the solution but however to make the solution work we don't want a to come out to fight thank you it's just that is what is your uh is it a two family a four family a six family 101 so Second Avenue is a two family two family house okay there's apartment one and apartment to okay thank you yeah both are three bedroom one and a half beds 1,150 Square fet now i r for for 19 50 I also want to agree that Laura levit is is a great professional Le is a oh yeah yeah yeah so not what I said if you get a market um the market um evaluation you need to find the reliable many people many real is willing especially you I heard of give you either F high or it's like property valuation yeah he brings up an interesting point though yeah okay basically basically thank you they're gonna talk now okay so I can leave now you're done you can leave okay I'm done okay than you great night so what were you going to say well in your experience are one and two families usually included in rent control it depends on the yes but it depends on the ordinance of the town so the thing is is that there's some there's some places that it's for and over right and there and Highland Park doesn't have that it's basically we change that exact well right because when I remember Matt her hail saying no one else is doing this we're going to lead the way and include one and two families I don't know um I mean I hear what he's saying why is it special that it's a one or a two as opposed to a five or a seven unit that might have had the exact same scenario I'm just curious I'm not because they're well do you still have your single family yes and you know but I do like he does I kind of keep it low because I like my she's prob watching but um you know but you know now I'm like well I better start incrementally doing it a little more you know I mean I think it's it's doing the opposite it's causing people to go with the increases where in the past maybe be$ 25 or $50 but now you're going to go with that three point whatever the the um a lot of landlords and this is totally anecdotal but I would say by a lot which is based on how many calls I get here three but I I there are small landlords like you and me you know that call every year for that number and that's what they use because they just want to like blame the bur you I'm just following the bur's number and that's what I'm using there are plenty that don't move them at all there's some that go 2% you know there's there's all over the map um so you're right it may be and I I've not been following ours just full disclosure I'm just doing more like a 2% because that's I feel comfortable but in speaking to that point since covid everything has gone ha wire so I don't know if the the bur the the r control board 3.5 has has great an impact as with as with the country and everything going wild so I won't in my thoughts I'm not thinking some people will be doing it but I don't think it's across the board because if you if I had a tenant for I don't have a tenant I have a single family house but if I had a tenant for a while and we had a relationship and I saw this document saying you're raising 3.5 I would still be consentable to know the increment that I'm going to give them or whatever I won't just jump to to do what you think is fair do what I think is fair so I think there's still a lot of that out there at as opposed to looking at the ordinance and saying oh I'm going to raise you 3.5 I I don't know if you remember this Stephanie but my recollection from the discussions around the ordinance from Council which may have shifted people come and go there's new members on the council um that the reason we included the ones and the twos and the you know more than what was in the prior ordinance was because we had we know there are so many in town and that there were some complaints about higher rents in those but they were anecdotal it wasn't like I have like statistic to prove it but that was the the vibe I got from the council because I think one of the earlier drafts just followed what we did before so there was an actual mindful decision to to to to include all um four more or something was in there that was what because that's what's the state housing code I can't remember I trust you I don't remember exactly if it was three plus or was it four up you know um and I so yeah and it is I know from the research I did back in the day it just varies to to town what's and what isn't the policy right Talent policy so I think the the the tenant concerns around the tenant certainly were Forefront in the thinking about this or and protecting as many of them as possible from large increases and it was around the reval time we didn't know how the reval what was going to happen and what impact that was yeah so all of that you would have to go we don't we don't know how many uh one and two familys we have I guess I'm just not real comfortable that we're enforcing something and we don't have like um solid data but it's hard to get data when we don't have we don't have the capacity to have go out and Yeah have like a business registration like sometimes they have a registration every year they have an annual you have to check in how many units you have what are the rents are a rent we do that but only for the ones we know about yeah exactly and the problem and it's not a problem I don't you should characterize that there are there's a dynamic in our town a lot of like I know I can p on my hand the number of people I know who are faculty who go away on a you know a thing for two years and they rent their house out for a couple years and then they come back and so we have a a like there's not everybody is a career landlord in this town it's there's a lot of people who own a property and it was their parents' property and they R I know three people in that category instead of selling it as an estate they rent it out so there's a lot of the the dynamic is different here I think that because we have such a strong rental market you know people and people do hold on to them with no mortgage you know because they're you know and uh it's you know Revenue uh but are they maximizing the revenue maybe not you know as he's obviously indicated yeah um and but you can't wake up one morning and say let charge market rate because you haven't been for the last that's I mean that's the you know yeah um so and I don't know what precipitated yeah the situation why all of a sudden it was like what am I an idiot you know well you know and and if I to say this too and I I don't know what the discussions were before but what I've seen and this is kind of unfortunate and I've seen this also with the larger units is when you have the rent control sometimes the landlords either don't make the applications either hardship or Capital Improvement and they're not improving the premises yeah so then you have that issue because they're saying well well why why would I do that I'm only getting this break that before and and that is something that I've seen and it's awful and so the question is then who gets hurt the tenant right because you know um I remember especially like the elevator buildings where there's a lot of Maintenance with the elevators and somebody May throw a liquid or you know and everything needs to get maintained and then you know you have unfortunately people who may have disabilities and they can't so I mean it's you know and that's tough that's when it gets really tough yeah we had a situation um recently that um actually I talked to Matt Hersh about because he knows this person and it was someone who was sub leasing a condo and then uh the owner of the condo decided to sell the condo and gave him like zero notice and said you have to get out meanwhile the guy's like ill and treatment and and bordering on you know um I mean I don't think he's homeless I don't know what happened to him but but when I at I said to Matt isn't is this rent control is he under any protection at all he has a lease I would think he didn't have a lease he was subletting how do you sublet with I don't know I mean that's he subletted from didn't so so I guess if you don't have a lease is that the div I don't know leas there's a subletting they allow my lease that I use says you can't subl without my permission so if that was let's run that scenario was my place they subed without my permission I think I'd be free and clear i' be like this person's here without my even permission corre be here you know they did this as it's almost like a side dis EXA like corre Airbnb and like they really should go after the tenant then but the tenant whoever subl it what is it a recourse and they need a house they don't need to be so I mean this is who really needed protection and just falls through the cracks yeah yeah but sometimes you have to be you have to protect yourself in those kind of engagements unfortunately it sounds like maybe somebody represented they had more correct there was going to be a longer term that's correct Arrangement and certainly the zero notice is is is bad but presumably if there was a main tenant they would have gotten the notice and they should have conveyed it that's correct to the that's correct sounds like it sounds like this might have been more of an under the table correct Arrangement you know under the table under table not illegal but not like a handshake and we're missing some facts you know because thing is is that this person is going in and out and we're talking about a one or two bedroom I'm sure the landlord knew that this person was there also so right that's and what somebody said Airbnb you know there are a lot of Airbnb not any when I go online I don't see them oh I've seen I say like if I saw five listings on Airbnb really yeah I think it goes like this I was wondering if there's a way to get the data to see if it correlates with they don't give data easily you have to have ordinances but that's not covered under anything no and that's one of those things that comes up in the conversation some resident or somebody and we don't have a policy proon it's just it is I think certainly landlords could preclude that in their leases which is something to think about personally not that I'm worried about it um but uh we've kind of because the number was relatively low it didn't seem like talk about things we have tough time enforcing that would even be tougher to get that now there's ordinances you can put in place as I understand it that Airbnb then has to comply with but then it's a whole thing so um if we really thought it was I've asked Scott over the years and it's like yeah there's a hand full of them out there yeah um but we haven't gotten a L Scott and he told you they were handful of them or did you say you a Scott I mean we because he brought it up to me once like do we want to go down because somebody raised it to him and we don't have and I've said I'm not taking it on unless you tell me you think we have a that's another board because that that won't come that wouldn't even be I think a board that would just be an ordinance that set toward the rules either you're allowed to have them you're not allowed to have them if you're allowed to have them here's the rules you know you have to get a CO and you know can't you know that kind of stuff and there's like a percentage everything that's in the ordinance too it just seemed like a lot of work for when my casual searches for airbnbs up for Highland Park right the last time I looked a month ago it was like three dots on the map did we have anyone else waiting in oh gosh forgot I didn't know before there are no attendees just thank you for asking almost I I did not I usually I I kind of looked while our last speaker was there and I didn't see anybody in waiting so I I wasn't too worri okay um so so he was basically what he was asking for another option to be added something that would somehow yeah or change in some a third type of hardship that you would only be granted if you met certain as a landlord like your rents were below Market by a certain amount yeah and the Tenant could pay it yeah yes but then we'd be in these certification of incom would rather not be in what about if they didn't raise rent a certain amount in a certain amount of last year well that kind of came up in the the last one because one of the tenants for whatever reason with the prior owner had maybe because it was a personal relationship and felt like she was a single person and she liked her or whatever she got very much increases prior to them owning the property but then the balance is going from that to what what can even if it's well below Market how much is it fair to what is a fair increase in that situ supposed to be from the last like it's supposed to so we we came up with a compromise but but because it would have been like a 46 or 49% it was it was a huge to get to kind of where they wanted to go so but that was exactly that scenario where for whatever reason that unit she had been are the longest and and obviously it was just a nice easy tenant liked her whatever the reasons I mean you can have whatever reasons you want um which wasn't really the new people's problem but it was in the sense that that was the agree part rent but like I've been there I mean it happens you know where either life gets in the way and you don't want to increase it for a while or then all of a sudden you know better get to this but it's not you know you got to balance what's fair market wise with what's fair human wise you know but if they doesn't because they don't want to lose a good ten but even if they were renting long-term renters we're talking about 10 plus years they're rents are way lower than what's listed definitely so definitely absolutely because but those but a lot of that you can't blame the rent control for because the rent control just came in but it comes from years of just kind of yeah easygoing probably good relationships and in the past few years rent have you know gone so I think right and I think landlords may be waking up a little too the um the the other thing is anecdotal but based on the tax office what goes on I feel like a lot of a lot of people have no mortgage on their properties and down for whatever reasons and so the other reason that it might not become as much of a pressing issue is if your overhead is a little bit lower because you're not paying mortgage you are you are subsidizing if you want to look at it that way with with because you don't have that um but that's that's the other reason I think maybe sometimes it's a set it and forget it kind of thing with if you have a long-term tenant and you don't have a mortgage but then if taxes go up more than you expect other things you know water bills go up things go up and then you need to reevaluate or your circumstances change and you need to take a loan out and you know now you've got money you need to pay back before any other any other business okay would someone like to uh do I have a motion to a Jour motion to a journ do I have one second you've only got two others I was like is someone motion