on my thought no I believe Jerry can you hear me yes the way you did it didn't you didn't you do it so it was just all one meeting yes that's correct yep so we can continue on perfect uh I am ready to roll hold on let me share my screen one second everyone can see yeah I'm just G okay council president you tell me when you're ready ready okay um so this is uh like we do every year we're going through there'll be nine different budget workshops um three tonight three more tomorrow and three more next week each gives a high level overview of um each Department's individualized budget how it's made up of the total budget overall and and Staffing changes and budgetary changes you see year-over-year um we also ask that each department head come up with a kind of their mission statement um for what their role is with the city so for the Department of administration and finance the mission of the Department of AD Administration is to promote sound financial stewardship cultivate a culture of innovation and collaboration and enhance operational efficiency through strategic planning transparency and effective Resource Management we aim to support sustainable growth fiscal responsibility and the overall well-being of our community um we broke down um the different divisions in in each department so in the department of administration you have the office of the business administrator who oversees all Municipal departments as well as day-to-day operations of the city the construction code office receives and processes all construction permits and inspects the work of the contractors to ensure all work meets what is required under the uniform construction code the office of constituent Services the on between members of the public city officials and other agencies serves as the first point of contact for any residents who are seeking Municipal Support Division of cultural Affairs plans promotes and produces events throughout the city to elevate hoboken's cultural footprint the finance department oversees the financial operation of the city and ensure ensures that the taxpayer funds are spent in accordance with the adopted budget and all relevant rules and regulations the municipal court is an independent judicial branch of the city of Hoboken although their budget lives in administration we have no um the Administration has no oversight over Court operations uh personnel and benefits is responsible for all human resources operations of the city purchasing reviews all requisitions for the purchase goods and services by City departments issues purchase orders and prepares the claims list and Senior Services provides various services and programs to senior community of Hoboken including transportation and Senior Recreation now breakdown um these are again are over two pages you'll see a breakdown of the change of employees year-over-year 2023 being on the left 2024 being on the right in the business administrator's office we went from four to five employees the additional addition of one employee is not actually a new hire it was just part of the reorganization so just uh again not a new hire someone who just moved under the Ba's budget line in the construction code office we have one uh chain um full-time from nine full-time employees to 10 are budget for this year the new employee is an assistant construction code official to help offset some of the um backlog that we get and allows for our current construction code official to take vacation and not for that backlog to continue um constituent Services Remains the Same three cultural Affairs we're seeing one additional employee that's reflective of uh Jerry phow um retirement midyear um you'll also see the addition of one part-time employee that's another person to manage um lead uh other support staff and then also serve as the public art administrator um and then Finance you see a reduction of one the asteris is there again it's not actually a reduction in in force it's just an employee that was previously in the finance department has moved to the um Department of climate action Innovation Municipal Court you're seeing an addition of three employees uh personnel and benefits remaining the same purchasing is remaining the same Senior Services is remaining the same and the mayor's office is receiving the remaining the same overall you're seeing an addition of five full-time employees to the budget of administration and one part-time employee and then just by the numbers um the department of administration Department of Finance make 6% of the total Appropriations for the city um that it's $7.7 million is the proposed budget and the year over fore change is about 1% if you break down by all the visions and I know that's a tight pie chart there but I'll try to go through it quickly for you um 25% is made up at the finance office 21% is in the court 16% is construction code 12% is the Ba's office 6% is the mayor's office 5% is personnel 4% is cultural Affairs 4% is city council 2% is constituent services and 1% is the public defender office and then by appropriation type um 79% of the total budget is made up of salary and wages and 21% is made up of O and then this is a year-over-year breakdown of each of the divisions um you will see the Ba's office uh had a 4% reduction year-over-year Personnel um saw a 9% reduction um mayor's office saw an 18% reduction city council saw a 17% reduction consituent Affairs saw 30% reduction construction code saw 2% reduction cultural Affairs saw 123% increase and that increase is related to twofold one is is the additional staff member that I referenced earlier but also we have transition from both senior services and cultural Affairs and a few other you'll see in the rec ation Presentation tomorrow we've been moving away from utilizing the trust accounts um as revenue and budgeting for actual costs um this is not only best practice it allows for us to actually keep track and of of monies coming in and monies going out um an issue that we had in these divisions previous years uh Municipal Court is going up 6% and the public defender office is going down 20 28% this is not necessarily um the city or the court reducing Public Defender Services we're actually similar to how we have utilized um the prosecutor where the city hired a full-time municipal prosecutor were about to go out to advertise for a full-time public defender we think it's more efficient um cost savings and will allow for the court to operate more efficiently um the city of Hoboken has the fourth busiest Municipal Court in the state of New Jersey and we're really working with um judge Troy and judge Pennington as well as Harry as leading the court administrator to find better efficiencies and operations for them to work more seamlessly and then um the finance office you're seeing a 5% reduction um I know this came up during introduction excuse me um two weeks ago but there was questions as it relates to um there were reductions in five different offices that relates to salary and wages and that was really focused on on one piece um in conversations with the city's auditor and best practices in terms of budgeting we were previously not directly allocating um time based on where offices were working so I I reference the city council you see a 17% reduction in the city council line the city council's salaries have not changed the number of City Council Members has not changed but we have allocated um 20% or in this case around 17% of the total budget for the city council to the parking utility and to the water utility and that's to reflect the the work that the city council does is a far majority of it is part of the general fund but probably around 20% of it is made up of both work it does on transportation and parking and also on water infrastructure um we had we had made that adjustment in conjunction with our Auditor in the Ba's office uh personnel and purchasing the mayor's office city council and the finance office so you'll see the same percentage breakdown um of the total budget last year versus how much is being charged there's no change in actual numbers in those year-over-year just how it's being charged into what account um and then this is just a breakdown of the salary and wage in OE and versus the total budget so I can go through each of these lines but I think it's they're pretty self-explanatory um this is again the breakdown of the salary and wage in the left column the operating expenses in the middle column and the total um 2024 budget the two added together um and how they reflect um $7.7 million um of the administration's introduced budget um those are all that's the kind of high level overview of each of them I am able to answer any questions go back to other slides I am at your disposal for the foreseeable future thank you director um one of the there's a question in the um question and answers that a that says have the directors been asked to project the impact of the budget based on last year's budget level or actual spending level you guys go with last at least as far as I recall at last year's what last year correct correct so we we we start at twofold one is we look back the first thing we do is look back at the previous years and assess kind of what was budgeted for versus what actuals were um in the event that they line up and we look at what those actuals were and think that they're going to likely be similar in the in the following budget Year we will budget a similar number but we we look at what those are and make adjustments based on what we project in the coming year or the future year based on what the actuals were for the previous year thank you any council members have any questions council president I believe Patricia waiters is I I just saw yeah reference to her hand being up yeah I I texted her back will'll have a public portion okay thank you or chat sorry yeah okay no worries I appreciate it um does do any other council members or do any council members have any questions council president can I say one thing just because I saw a note coming in from councilwoman Fischer um related to the um broadcast of this via YouTube and Facebook and in her note it alluded to the administration decided not to stream the meetings and that's simply not true so I just want to be very clear I don't know if there was a an error or miscommunication as it relates to what councilman Fischer was told or communicated I had asked for them to be on YouTube and Facebook um and I believe that never made it to rod that's I I I don't that's that part of the communication doesn't come from the administration so that's the the city clerk and Rod are the ones who coordinate and communicate all of that I'm sorry the city yeah City Clerk and and Rod are the ones who coordinate all of that so I just want to be very clear on that piece hi yes uh this is Rod here um it w it wasn't communicated in the past last year we did not broadcas these on YouTube and Facebook so um since nothing was indicated to me that we were changing that practice you're going to put it on Rod you can put on YouTube we have the recording we'll put on YouTube as soon as we can thank you sure um Jason I actually just about the salaries com I understand like you said that the auditor had recommended that you take part of our salary it it feels weird that we're like very specifically taking it from two Revenue sources of our so it's it's taken from six different it's six different uh budget lines move and and they're dispersed through three different um so it's the general fund parking utility and hpu um again it is the auditor's recommendation was this was a a best practice I think we're going to try to expand it going forward knowing that it was something new was we kind of and as they they recommended do it in I wouldn't say baby steps but incrementally um there's no change in the dollar amounts if if it is it's just how it's it's broken down um as something that we have not done in the past right I mean in particular the water utility I felt like the water utility money very specifically was supposed to go to water infrastructure um it it does again that that stuff that isn't changing there's no net change to the the budget itself it's just where those funds are being allocated towards so that the amount of money going towards water projects hasn't changed because of this it's just reflecting where monies monies are getting um dispersed for so I think I'm not grasping how that hasn't changed if you're taking part of it and using it towards salaries that it wasn't used for in the past the water utilities budget is also still increasing so it's not changing if I I'll use round numbers if the water utilities budget last year was $100 and this year it's 110 to reflect the monies that are that are being allocated from the city council and the mayor's line and a few of those other divisions I referenced you're seeing an increase in the total budget the water utility rather than it's not the same year-over year so money is not being taken away from those projects right but if the if the water utility the water utilities budget is based on the revenues it brings in though as well correct correct that's that's the largest source of Revenue is is water rates what else what else is in there besides that um there are connection fees there are um Grant sources and there's interest income specific to the water utility those are the biggest Revenue items so if we if we weren't using that if we were just paying ourselves through the general fund money would be able to go back into water infrastructure it would yes but I I don't think I guess the the the intention on this was not to and it isn't to change how we um structure or invest in in water infrastructure it's both again the best practices from our auditor allows us to operate continuously without having to worry about um out of the cap incap kind of different expenses and still allows the water utility to grow organically through water rates all right let's see if any uh what about any council members questions I mean I guess I will follow up coun president um I I I will confess I don't follow this uh Jason the could you go back to the the slide you just had up um with there you go the council the city council I assume I mean our the total salaries of the city council are roughly $325,000 so how is how is it that the budget is less than that amount and where's the different you know can you can you explain sure so the entire the let's again I I'll use round numbers if the if Jim Doyle's salary as the city council person is $100 that's not changing but what was discussed between myself the city's finance department and the auditor was breaking down how much of the work of a city council member is specifically related to the general fund specifically related to transportation and parking projects and specifically related to the water utility we kind of did a we made a decision and broke that down that 80% of the work that is done by the city council member is done through the general fund which is what's that $298,000 is reflecting and then I'm sorry the 3300 $300,000 is reflecting and the remaining 20% is broken up between the parking utility and the okay and the transportation department which you will see reflected in those presentations all right that's that was exactly my question so and then tomorrow next Wednesday we'll see a line item for roughly $50,000 or something or I guess it's broken both between water and park transation correct and and again it's not just city council it's yeah happen and various things I get it y all right thank you no problem I'm just going to ask since people what people put in the questions um sure how many full-time employees did you say the finance department had I can back to that slide one second 12 um Deb I'm sure you can hear me if you have any other questions if you want to put your hand up I can just call on you it's easier that way um and then before I do that they'll say if she raised her hand Jen are you reading the the the questions that are typed in is I'm gonna uh there we go hi Deb hi can you hear me yes I yeah that just seemed like an awful lot of people to me I I I just wonder what all those positions are and what they do well it's made up of the general finance office com controller CFO um and other Finance individual it under other Finance individuals it's also made up of the tax collector's office office and the tax assessor's office which each have several employees in them okay thank you you're welcome um and then where is Patricia Patricia hi Jen thanks um and thanks Mr Doyle um I'm my question is Jason you saying that you keep saying compareed with the last previous years but Mo the last three years we had a lot of Grants from the covid are you counting that money from all of those grants cu the budget shouldn't be the same so no you're you're right Pat the budget is not the same and the right because you can't I'm sorry that money that was allocated for the last three years Jason we not getting that no more you know what I'm saying I mean some of them go into extension I mean just some of them did have extensiones like at the freeholders too that they didn't spend yet but you not those in this budget right correct so the the ARP funds that you're referencing um expire in 20124 um so by the end of this year we won't have them on a go forward basis going into 2025 okay because you said it like three times say from the previous all right thank you you're welcome Manny can you hear me yeah yes yes good evening again um council president um I have a few questions first of all I I kind of and and forgive me for the Preamble I believe I follow the mathematics in regards to um the council the way it's being breaken down to get paid um but my question is Mr Freeman said six is coming from six different um allocations and that is where my query is if it says six different allocations and then you bring it back to three uh how does that particularly work I mean I understand again the general picture meaning 80% you do because you're Council people or whatever then the other percentages because the the work is pertain to something but can can can we get a Clarity on on that circumstance Mr uh Freeman um council president sure sure and that's I I apologize if I was not clear it's six different divisions are getting charged to three different budgets so there is the general fund budget the uh hpu budget and there is the water utilities budget director just tell him what the six divisions are sure um sure it is the the Ba's office Personnel purchasing the mayor's office city council and finance okay now I think okay I see it okay so so um then the query would be is the numbers as you put them there and you say that nobody's salary has changed but it seems it seems uh um for some reason lower is that is that reflective because it says you're you're going less it Jason go ahead yeah clearly I was not doing a good job no you did a good job um what what he the salary is exactly the same it used to just say for city clerk for city council all of our money came out of the city council payroll line item now only a portion of it 80% is coming out of that and the other 20% is coming from the hpu and the water utility so the salary is the same it's just where it's being funded from is different I got a council president I see it's it's in the other in the other yeah okay I follow I follow now thank you very much because I wasn't getting it but now I got it I appreciate it it's it's another it's if I'm ask um uh then I would like to just um another brief question so in this specific Department there is no increase to the budget is that correct in which overall Administration and finance overall it's a 1% decrease decrease decrease and oh increase d d d down down down thank you very much and that is specifically because it's I mean it's I'm grateful that it's down but that 1% reflective where I the spread over multiple are yeah it's spread over several different areas um if you look Manny the go ahead if you look at the the breakdown here the in the left column I don't know if you can see my mouse this is 2023 is number to the right side is 2024's number and the far right column is the year-over-year change so when you take all of that into consideration and and you look at the totals it's an overall 1% decrease thank you I think I don't mean to put words in your mouth but I what I thought you were trying to say was like if the salaries were all still in here Jason or director Freeman do you know what that number would be I don't off the top of my head but I can I can um put that together and send that out to the that would be helpful okay thank you uh council president and Mr Freeman and everyone uh those are my questions for now thank you thank you thank you for the presentation do any other members of the public have any questions if so please raise your hand no council president did yeah uh I believe Mr Amed had a question which some actually yeah he said it it was for a later presentation okay great and there's another one from uh Dan Kowalski oh I missed that one thank you yeah uh what would this is for director what would the impact on public services if next year's program office offices budgets were the same as last year's expenditures I also think it's difficult to comment on the city budget absent the Schoolboard proposed budget that I understand might be an 8% increase I heard 24% but yeah I I have I have not seen the I'll I'll start from the back I have not seen the the schools introduced budget it was not shared with me nor was anyone from the administration uh asked for their take on it before it was introduced so I I can't speak to what the Board of Education proposed or introduced um I just want to reread what would be the impact on public services in next year's program offices budgets were the same as last year's expenditures um it would it would depend I mean each line each line is a little bit different um some if you notice and you go back in previous years starting in November you start to see what's what's called basically inter inter-government transfers so we are transferring money from lines that maybe we're projecting we're not seeing as much spent as that was originally allocated to lines that we're seeing maybe we're overspending so um it's hard to give a an answer if we're not asked for a specific line um because they really vary based on on a year-to year or program to program Dan if you want if you like to ask more questions might be helpful if you raise if you want to speak um to raise your hand I don't know if that answer was sufficient for you oh perfect um there you go you should be able to speak now Dan Thanks Jen um from a standpoint of good scenario planning I wondering if there was uh any request from the program offices to actually scenario plan out what would be the impact of a Frozen budget given that you know we're looking at a 6% budget in this portion and some significant increase in the education budget my which I understand is based primarily on increased volume of of students which really has to be funded um and I think that that you know if if the city were to come back with a 6% here and 20% on education and something on the county because the County taxes never decrease I think that the reaction of participants might be um strong um I la I believe last year director correct me if I'm wrong our portion of the county ta our our portion of what we paid actually went down for the County taxes might have even been the last two years I would have to look last year I believe it was flat the the the County's budget is is the way it's broken up is a little bit different because it's proportional to the assess value or equalized value of the 12 communities in Hudson County so the County's budget itself has gone up year over a year that has not changed um but hoboken's portion based on the formula that assesses the tax for the for each municipality changes on a year-to-year basis based on a number of factors but but mostly equalized value um and then Dan had asked about looking at having a you know Frozen budget from this year to last I don't remember the exact sure so so I I I I think I understand the question I think the the biggest um issue we have with that Dan or or the biggest issue the city as a whole would have is that the driving force of a lot of the the growth you're seeing or that the uh pressures related to a tax increase on the municipal side is portions of the budget that are outside of the city's Direct Control and those three biggest drivers are the city's pension payment so that went up 3 million dollar on its own and that's a mandated payment that we have to pay to the state of New Jersey um our Health Care Program um again we saw those increases uh as I mentioned earlier go up about 7 and a half% this year and then and also our debt Services increased as well and those are payments we have to make to um the bank um you know per money that we've we've taken out um to bond for different projects so um I think you would see a a pretty Stark reduction in Services if we had to cover the costs of things that are outside the city's control while maintaining a flat budget you would see a a pretty drastic change in in cities services but but the point I'm trying to make is that good scenario planning would indicate that you you know plan that out and see what it looks like and and maybe a flat budget's not an option but maybe a you know a three or 4% increase is a option that might be acceptable to the public I I can assure you that that we go through at least on the municipal side I can't speak for what the county and the Board of Ed do um we go through all these different scenarios to see what different numbers and what different um points we can we can introduce or adopt a budget app that both is fair to the taxpayer um and also allows for the city not to have to reduce services in a year-over-year basis but um I think going forward if there are different ways for us to um lay out these workshops um or present the budget in a way that um gives you some better insight as to what that could look like I'm I'm all ears on a go forward basis thank you thank you Dan Roberto yeah I just curious when you do the budget I mean what are you assuming the base is I mean a the the reason why we have uh more students is we have more residents so I mean just keeping the taxes on the on the residences uh the same would naturally give you an increase as more people move into Hoboken so what if anything are you calculating as to how many more taxpayers there's going to be in 24 than in 23 three so the rateable base went up about 0.59% year-over-year so the actual tax increase is about 6.3% but it is in terms of that impact on total taxpayers year-over-year it's only 5.9% because of the small increase in the number of taxpayers um or ratables that came online between 23 and the year 24 I'm surprised that is so small given the increase in in the population and certainly um the the increase potentially that we seen in the in the school population I mean maybe it's just all all are is most of the increase in the population of hobok and renters that do not pay uh taxes or what what what are we attributing there such a such a small uh increase well it's it's it's it's less about the population Roberto and more about the total number of units or or or properties that are paying that are levied by the municipality if the city is not building um more units there are not more units to tax so we could see the population increasing at a rate far higher than the actual number of units coming online which is what is actually dictating a growth in the rable base but uh so you're telling me that the number of units that were um built in Hoboken equates to a little bit over half percent of the of the base that seems uh very very low given the amount of new buildings that are around Etc um I I don't know is there is there data um for the last three or four years as to how much the rateable base uh went up is yes it's a it's a it's a fractional number I would say between 05 and 75 year-over-year for the last four years I can I can get that number and share with the city clerk but that is the uh that is the the growth okay so when we like get all these big projects like um you know the the the the big buildings that are getting approved of of course A lot of them are not out already but um some of the ones that that have come in online uh over the last few years that just seems like such a small number I would have thought it would be bigger um but that that was my curiosity thank you thank you Roberto Linda Linda oh you're on mute I don't know why let's see if I can Linda you have to unmute yourself I don't have a question thank you oh okay thank you there was one more question in the oh I lost it it's just one word Pilots it's not a question you know it's just I don't the context is unclear no there was just something about overtime I don't know where it went oh here um what can we expect in the way of overtime from year over year how much overtime did we have last year in terms of cost um I could pull that number I don't have it in front of me um we budget for an overall number for each department um it's substantial in some smaller in others um if you look at the fire department um the the fire department police department have the largest overtime um versus if you look in the personnel and purchase Department we budget $3,000 for for overtime for the entire year so it it it really varies I can I can go back and look um what our year-over-year spend was for overtime versus um like the actuals versus budgetary but I don't have that in front of me right now okay did do you re I don't recall this but do you recall if we did any line item transfers into the overtime budgets for any departments um uh yes we did some in senior for senior services so from police to Senior Services um and I believe um there was one other one it might have been construction Cod or engineering but that's where um we made those transfers thank you um all right I don't believe we have any other members of the public that want to ask questions councilwoman fiser or Russo do you guys have anything council president I just um and I may have missed it I apologize for being late to the meeting um director a couple months back I requested the um the overall um total amount of employees and and and the hierarchy of of each of those employees from the mayor on down um were you ever able to get that completed so that we could get that out because it just makes my life a little easier when I'm it understood I will get it for you we we had to we had it made and finished and then we had to rejigger it for some of the reorg um but I will make those adjustments and get that overdue councilman I apologize for that taking yeah no it's all right and I didn't follow up so it's it doesn't all fall on you um but yeah that's just one thing that that it just makes my life easier because I'm I'm a visual person so uh if you could get it over I would appreciate it absolutely thank you councilman councilwoman no I'm good thanks thank you any other Council people members all right what's next nope thank you director um thank you council president we have um the clerk or Corporation counsel you guys can fight it out as to who goes next let the clerk go Jerry's all Jimmy's ready to go okay all right city clerk's office uh 2024 introduced budget supplemental materials are you gonna share youren responsive excuse me Jerry's gonna do it all right all right thank you I work the responsibilities responsibilities for the city clerk's office secretary to the municipal Corporation custodian wait I'm sorry to interrupt you again Jimmy but Jerry can you help can you make make it so the correct screen's up all right want sit over you there you go maybe make it full screen would be helpful perfect thank you okay responsibility secretary to Municipal Corporation custodian of Municipal seal attest the signatures of Municipal officers and officials Secretary of the governing body agenda preparation for every meeting legal advertisement special meeting Chief register of Voters handle all elections voter registration forms change of party affiliation open public records act Oprah records coordinator update the city website daily update the municipal code whenever new legislation continue to work with the administration and C council members conduct oath of offices handle miscellaneous licenses and clerk conducts marriages ceremonies whenever the municipal judge or the mayor is not available next slide Jerry the organizational chart we have five employees the city clerk Deputy clerk two clerks and a recording support technician and we had the uh the number of employees for the city clerk's office has been the same since 2022 there there's been no change of employees at that level next slide as you could see the uh employees chart I take it from the 2022 to 20 20 24 Remains the Same five employees and if the extent that the internal case load of increases due to Oprah requests may be necessary to hire one additional staff and we we put that in just about every year but so far we're doing uh we're efficient with with the the number of employees that we have next Slide the open public meeting act we receives approximately 1,500 to 2,000 requests per year 125 a month currently 541 as of April 12th 2024 I think we have uh the most request up there in this in the state compared to some of the other municipalities work with Corporation council's office to receive Le legal advice including legal research and drafting legal memorandums coordinate with the Corporation Council and special counsel represent the city clerk's office and the government's record Council city clerk works with the municipal boards historic preservation commission chry commission Alcohol Beverage Control Board North Hudson Sage Authority planning board zoning board Housing Authority Library board rent leveling and stabilization board hobok and arts advisory Council hoker Municipal Hospital Authority cannabis review board lgbtq Pride committee and the youth advisory Commission uh to 2024 introduced budget total 0.5% of total City Appropriations uh proposed budget $663,000 uh budget change minus 7% 2024 intru budget breakdown by function 9% is uh for elections 4% codification of ordinances 6% legal advertisement and city clerk's office salaries 81% by appropriation type elections 22% city clerk salary and wages 78% 2024 introduced budget by function city clerk 2023 budget was $538,500 budget for four uh 2024 budget $538,500 per. legal advertisement budget the 2003 was 40,000 2024 requesting 40,000 zero uh change 0% elections for 2023 was 110,000 for 2024 60,000 minus 45% codification of ordinances 23 budget was 25,000 requ W for 2024 25,000 change 0% total for 2023 was $73,345 2024 request $63,500 a deduction of $ 49,7 185 20 introduced budget by appropriation city clerk salving wages $57,200 other expenses $31 budget for 2024 for city clerk 538 458 legal advertisements for 2024 40,000 request 40,000 elections for 2024 10,000 other expenses 50,000 budget requests for election 60,000 codification of ordinances 24 2024 with 25,000 and request for 2024 25,000 the total in salary and wages $57,200 expenses $146,200 and the budget request for 2024 $663,000 458 and that's it thank you any questions thank you uh let's see you could turn the screen off it makes it easier to see oh you know what leave it there do any council members have questions I'm question why uh Jimmy why would the election cost be dropped 50,000 well last year we had the uh you know the the council election and then we had a runoff election so that brought that course up but the the primary you know so you're you're assuming two elections for 60,000 as opposed to three for 110 yeah but don't forget we had the the the council election plus we had that runoff election yeah that's what brought that budget up for to 2023 I think if if two cost 60 why wouldn't three cost 90 I think the word elections cost more because we have different ballots in each one of the six WS oh that's a really good point all right well the run the runoff too is we pay for we pay for the runoff exclusively in the general and the primaries that's a that's a cost that's SP the county and the city right right but the primary is on one word so it's a smaller it's one six of a cost of a normal election really the the primary elections cost that we we have to pay for the sample ballots uh for the primary and that that runs around 40 45,000 and then there there's wages for the uh employees for the election yeah okay thank you all right Jimmy can you go back to the Oprah slide really quick right oh maybe it wasn't there but you had said you I think the slide said um well GNA have to look four um you oh you said Oprah support was for people the slide take a you said oer support the slide said four people but you the number four was after it but I think that was part of the number four right part of the the title for that position it's civil service has different grades of titles so that's record support technician four there's also record support technician three it's the like it's a title it's the title that civil service has given that position there's only five in in the organizational chart you right um and then sh Cheryl asked aren't there three elections that need to be budgeted for in 2024 oh I think she's talking about the referendum that's I didn't want to get into that because you know we just if if the need be then we'd have to have a I guess a special appropriation for that if that if if it goes that way for the referendum all right because uh it all depends when they when they file it if they file it at a certain time uh between now and I think uh now and the end of May we we might have to have a special election somewhere in August or September according according to the uh the law if if not then it'll go on the general right if it goes past that it'll go on the general it'll save us a lot of money then right um thank you other council members all right I am going to Haney thank you council president thank you a few questions uh one of them um would be since the mayor is running for congress and if you were successful when would that election be and how would you what would the cost be roughly well if this this is just what what I what I think would happen if if the May is successful in a primary and he he wins the Gen election November he doesn't have to give up the May's seat until he's sworn in in January so then then then after that uh and that the corporation can correct me if I'm wrong after that if he resigns as as the mayor after January then the city council president becomes the mayor and fills out his the rest of his term the rest of his ter of the appointment of the mayor uh there's no special election need they they fill out the existing uh whatever the term is is the last year of his term so then there wouldn't be a need for special election whoever's appointed mayor at that time continues on till the next election in 2025 and if he chose to leave early a month early to set up his offices or what would happen that then then I would believe we'd have to have a special election and I mean that I would have to get the advice from The Corporation Council if I'm I was gonna say I think this this might be a better topic for Corporation Council to address I understand the concern is from a budget standpoint but the technicalities and timing might be best defined by Corp Council right right the reason why I'm asking is because it's really not not to anyone but the candidate if they choose to leave early they leave early and you can't do anything about it other than either have money in the budget for it or not and I don't think we could do it in December um I don't know when the election would be or when money would have to uh or what budget would have to be in I was asking that question the second question was with respect to Oprah requests in your budget you had for obviously staff to cooperate with oppr request but where where would we find line items for people who contested opr request other than the legal fee for uh the city side if they were damaged or something where would that be I I would have to get that I that's a Jason question but it would be I mean it must has it happened before and where what bucket does it come from are you like a judgment Fund in other words yeah you guys someone challenges your oppr request takes you to task on it get money is lost where does it go what bucket is it from Alissa are you um now Brian should be here let's see if their judgments against the city it it I yeah I'm I'm here I can't tell you exactly only because I don't know what account it comes out of I assumed which is a bad thing to do that it comes out of the normal legal litigation budget so we have a budget for litigation and judgments um so I think that's where it's paid from but it's really a a Chris Baldwin question but it absolutely has happened where you know we've had to uh on occasion pay for op requests but is that where you've paid do you know Brian if that's where you've paid in the past because I you have okay yeah I don't ium I'm not sure yeah I imagine it is not in the clerk's only because we've looked at the clerk's budget every year for the last I mean I have anyway for the last eight years it's a pretty consistent budget so I feel like the big giant million dollar you know litigation um budget is probably I'm guessing is where those things get funded out of and not out of the cler's office I will I will yeah I will pull up the any previous settlements we've had to um we've had to or judgments we've had to pay out um and see where those line would come from and get back to you thank you perfect last question is with respect to the elections again I mean Cheryl asked a question about the referendum question again not something the city could control if one comes in it comes in you know but you do have to pay for it do you put a hypothetical in there since there is a question floating out there and the uh the possibility again what I said earlier about you know the mayor if he decides to go early would when would that election be depending like what's the cut dates is it if they decide right after the the general in the first week of November you know you have to scramble and do one in 90 days or like what's you don't have to answer right now I guess legal can answer it later if they want to look it up but just I'm just curious so that you don't get caught flat-footed if these things happen hany maybe I can ask just a different way if for whatever reason um there is a special election for mayor in 2024 and there is a referendum in 2024 that's separate from the general election what how would that how would they be funded when it happens if they're not in the budget we would do an emergency appropriation and they would be funded in the 25 budget got it okay thank you f would there also be I mean if it was November something you could just do a line item transfer if you had money elsewhere that hadn't been spent yes thank you thank you thank you Annie oh I didn't mean to do that uh let's see do any other there we go man uh yes good afternoon again council president um brief question because I'm a little follow up in regards to the the interaction that just occurred because there was two things meshed um in regards to the OPA request because I saw the chart and the chart says uh approximately 2,000 come in and they're they're worked upon um my question is in in the budget is there since Mr clerk said that it gets worked internally there are only five employees I would assume four technically would be doing this work um if you would need extra help is that also somewhere in the um budget where you can like you just said right now a council president a line item that you can take it from somewhere and put it for another employee to process so many opra requests um and would it also fund itself due to the fact that also you get pay you have to pay a fee towards it you don't have to pay a fee if you if we don't receive money when someone requests when someone has an Oprah request we don't get money for that um I have never seen and correct me if I'm wrong Mr finina I've never seen us add staff specifically because we were backed up on Oprah correct correct right well and I would add that keep in mind that the staff in the clerk's office and Jimmy correct me if I'm wrong but when someone makes a request of a legal document for example the the staff sends the requests and it coordinates the response but it you know a request for a legal contract we go to Corporation counsel and they would actually pull the document out and get it to the clerk so there's an aspect of this work that is that is you know being spread over all the different divisions based on what the request is right that's correct okay so for for the benefit of members of the public so the understanding is that there is a cross uh Association or benefit between corporate Council and city clerk um so they would obviously use their own and appropriate budgets uh separately and equally simultaneously so so that's what could understand from what Mr Mr um cilman Doyle just said yes yeah it was an example obviously it happens every exactly exactly should it occur okay um uh I had another question where is it yes in regards to the these elections again which is what was was being spoken um again I don't I don't see why not prepare well anyway why not prepare to possibly have the election and then not if we don't we don't use it instead of finding money from somewhere else in the budget even though I know that that that's a possibility at any time due to the fact that it shows up on agendas constantly but would it be more prudent or not so the the discussion we had is um in short yes we absolutely could budget for a hypoth itical um the only the only concern about that was whether it the election happens or not um if it were to happen we would have to pay for it whether it be a budget transfer or an emergency appropriation that we would raise in 2025 if it doesn't happen and we have budgeted for it that's money that we've essentially asked the taxpayers to pay it would be it would it would lapse in into Surplus but if it happens we're going to have to pay for anyway if it doesn't happen we would try to avoid that burden being put on the taxpayer okay that was my question thank you um Mr administrator yes so members of the public I I I believe I have it clear that better let's say for lack of a better phrase let's borrow it later borrow it now if we need it and pay for it later that's what you I'm hearing so we don't um burden this budget which is is per perfectly understandable if you know taxes go up higher in this School Board um uh I would like to just Madam uh council president I would just like to thank thank uh the clerk's office for their uh clear presentation and their their budget thank you Mr Clerk and thank you Madame chair pardon me coun thank you thank you um see any other members of the public any council members uh I will just say I'm I don't know that I would be such a fan of budgeting for those elections without knowing they were going to happen and for different reasons because that money then could be transferred for use elsewhere um that's my opinion I would agree council president uh thank you oh all right thank you Mr finina good job thank you thank you all right who is our last person that would be me wait before you start I think we have um Paul has arrived okay all right Mr aloya thank you all right can you see my screen yes so this is the Corporation Council and the one thing I'm G to figure out here is how do I change pages I just H page down on your keyboard oh there you go thank you for that so Corporation council's mission is actually taken from the code and Corporation Council is the chief legal officer of the city and the attorney and solicitor of record for all proceedings so generally speaking all legal issues that come um either before the council or lawsuits that are filed against the city the office of Corporation Council handles um as everyone knows um Corporation Council actually oversees not only internal staff but a group of attorneys that um have Specialties to handle some of those um outside legal matters that come against the city responsibilities with the city clerk you just heard that in some instances um we provide um help with Oprah whether they're asking us for specific information or in the event the city clerk um has questions with regard to what should be redacted or whether something um is clear enough as a request but it's certainly not as the clerk indicated they get approximately 2,000 it's far from 2,000 um that that my office handles um you know maybe we do 10 a month or something like that um so maybe it's 120 that's just a guess by the way but I certainly know it's not 2,000 because that would be a full-time job for us as well I'm purchasing again rfps um that come in the documents once we're awarded we do the contracts construction code office sometimes we go before the construction board of appeals we also provide the construction code official um every so often he'll have a legal question or two tax office we don't do a whole lot for the tax office they have a separate tax Council for that but uh we do help them with sales tax issues um preparing resolutions um for the sales taxes and sometimes when things have to get waved contracts we draft all the contracts so every time you guys make an award of a contract um we have to obviously put out a contract we also do all the Amendments so every time a contract is increased let move my screen a little bit because I see the sun's hitting us um is increased we changed that affirmative action um we look into our affirmative action harassment complaints things of that nature sometimes that's handled by outside Council but sometimes we are able to keep those and handle those internally employee discipline and generally speaking all employee discipline is handled in house when I say it's handled in house I'll call WEA as a prosecutor when they have a hearing there is another outside attorney that comes in Access the hearing officer and then of course the the employee normally will have a union representative as well as an attorney attorney um provided by the employee and then General litigation again um we handle what we can inside and then the rest goes to outside legal counsil um Public Safety you know we do grievances resolutions Public Employee uh commission administrations kind of the same thing analyze conduct legal research draft resolutions and ordinances and here's our organizational chart it hasn't changed over the years um of course we're overseen by the um administrators office office I'm I'm myself I'm Corporation counsel I have a great um assistance with uh Alyssa Wells who's assistant Corporation Council and we have Andrew Sima who just joined us um recently I'll say he's been here maybe a year and a half now but still recent and he's our full-time prosecutor um in Jason's presentation earlier you heard they're going to probably try to do that with the public defenders office which we're not in charge with but we think it's a great idea because Andrew is just working out fantastic so you'll see a small um allocated amount for prosecutor that allocated amount is for when Andrew is either sick or on vacation we do have I'll call the same um two prosecutors that we had previously that were handling all the prosecuting work they'll only come in now when Andrew is either on vacation or calls him sick um and in some instances to control that budget Alyssa or myself are also a prosecutor so we're able to uh keep that down as well and then of course we have Anna who's the greatest legal secretary on the planet and so our employees are four it hasn't changed over the years I'm still hoping to add a fifth employee um but we'll see if that happens you know in the future certainly not looking to do that today maybe toward the end of the year we'll start looking at that again because I do believe we can add another employee and keep things uh more work inhouse um and it would also allow us more flexibility right now if either myself or Alyssa were ever off together um there's no one you know to to cover um not going would we always plan around each other but with illnesses and whatnot you never know something can happen so that other employee would not only be able to potentially reduce our outside legal counsel but would also have we'd have better coverage and so here's the our budget is 1% of City Appropriations the proposed budget is 1.5 million year-over-year budget change is a a decrease of 4% and here's by account Corporation Council is 35% uh special council is 65% claims against the city iess is 1% and you can see that Municipal prosecutors is 1% and again that's $20,000 I'm not sure if it's a exact 1% I think they're rounding up here salary and wages um is 30 35% and then operating expenses is 65% and here's our budget in comparison to 2023 you can see that the um salary line has gone up and again that is in hopes of potentially you know September October somewhere in that area potentially taking on other employee our special councel outside Council we've dropped by $100,000 um labor Council we've removed only because that is part of special Council so I think that was just one of those line items that um is left over historically um claims against the city keeping that the same as $5,000 and the municipal prosecutor that's what we spoke about earlier that's really only to cover illnesses um and vacation and by appropriation type you can see Corporation Council um we have $530,000 special council is $950,000 claims against City again is five and missal prosecutors 20 these are the same numbers we're just looking at them in a different format any questions so um if I may so Brian I'm sorry you had said that you hope to add a fifth but I don't is is that in the budget or it's not in the budget for a fifth for a full year but that's what the I want to say that it's a I can go back but it's like a 45,000 or so dollar increase in our salary budget and that is in if we decide that it's appropriate able to do it to hire somebody maybe in you know again October September it's it's fluid as when the person would hire but that's why it's not a full year salary okay thank you Brian it's uh Paul I was curious if you do hire that other person how much are you looking to I'm sorry how much excuse me how much you're looking for how much you're looking at in savings If you hired another person well that's difficult to tell um as far as savings I would certainly think the person would more than cover their salary um because again what we would be doing is handling more stuff in house right so right now there is some labor stuff that that we have to farm out just because you know Alyssa and I run the I'll call it the day-to-day as well as handle stuff in house so there's only so much we can do so that third person I'll call it in that team and I'm not discounting Andrew but Andrew does a 100% municipal prosecutor that job keeps him busy throughout the entire day so he's not able to fill in on anything else so that third person would allow us to even have more stuff handled inhouse so it' be very easily cover their salary and I think you know it would be more than their salary frankly but as far as a number um well if you just if you did simple math the person Let's Pretend we're paying outside Council a decent rate you know normal rate is 150 times uh 2 ,000 hours a year $300,000 so I think the person would save us at least $150,000 doing very quick math and why I did that is the normal attorney Works about 2,000 hours I think it's 2080s for the for the city but pretend it's 2,000 to make the math easy uh 2,000 times $150 hour is $300,000 so that's what we would pay outside Council so if you figure salary and benefits is about 150 for an employee um subtract the 150 from the 300 you're getting around 150 ,000 in savings and then I would probably actually sub subtract maybe another 50 off that and say $100,000 in savings and the reason why I would track the SEC the last 50,000 is not everything that the employee would do um would be something we'd send out to um outside Council so that employee would also help write resolutions and ordinances um and fill in and just help some some responses get more uh done in a more timely manner thank you council president Brian I have a a question for you as far as special counsel outside Council um how much legal work is being done outside of your budget so for example if there's legal work happening in the finance department for bonds work things like that and the followup to that is are you also overseeing that in the sense that you're managing uh those for those attorneys so with regard to bond counsel um and not specific to bonds it's really to everything right so how much other legal work is being done in the city of hobok and that it's actually not being budgeted through your budget and then who is managing that is that just the individual um director or is there an oversight component in your department for those other allocations as well I can say I work with director Brown and he certainly has out side legal work that we team up together to help him um the only other legal work other than Bond counsel um that I know of would be tax counsel um and that goes to the tax department they tax yeah so that certainly goes to the tax Council we don't oversee tax Council and then the attorneys for the boards do work so a lot like the land use and things of that nature um I don't know how much of that goes through I'll call the city's budget versus the board's budget um we can certainly get back to you on that yeah and and I've seen different administrations do it different ways where everything ran through Corporation council's office and then you know it got broken up you know some some things were in different departments because that was the work that they were doing so on and so forth but what I'm trying to understand is the total amount of of legal work throughout the city um so that we could kind of put a number to it to see what that exactly is I'm under the impression you know 95% of it is is through the legal department but again I'll get back to you with those numbers yeah I appreciate it thanks BR wh any other council members Mr aloya you had said um you're talking about Oprah requests and sometimes you also review them what what triggers Corporation what triggers the city clerk's office to send you ones to review um so what happens with city clerk's office gets it if they aren't sure whether or not a a public document is identified or if something should be reacted they'll send that to Alyssa specifically um and then depending on what the request is and you know how busy we are at that point in time there's also outside legal council um that provides opinions um in that regard and help so I guess it depends on the nature request and the size of the request I don't know what triggers other than maybe them being unsure what triggers them that's more of a question for them um but usually when it comes to us um I find that the clerk's office I guess is pretty good at identifying things where they're not sure is this asking for a public record or what needs to be redacted or maybe it's massive and they're not sure what to do with it when I say massive diasp for documents from you know 2019 to the present and for whatever reason they send that to us but what we'll do is just send that to it for a search so I'm just making this up but if someone were to ask for like and if someone from the clerk's office wants to answer this as well that's fine but if someone were to put in an Oprah request for emails between the mayor and you that well you would be getting that anyway come the mayor and Zoning officer would that come to you we'd have to ask the clerk I don't know the answer to that that when I say I don't know the answer we've gotten email requests like that but would that just trigger something I don't believe so um you know normally what they would do is they would send that to administration's office and the you said zoning clerk I'm sorry was the mayor who else whoever it they'll send it to they'll send it to the two offices and now that might come to us to review the emails for you know any redactions again because a part of it depends upon the time you know if I had to guess in my mind sometimes I believe but I've never asked the question while they'll send us requests like what you just described is if there are too many emails that the time is too long of a period like for the last two years the last year or whatever like that where there's a lots and lots of emails that could take hours to review every email to see like is everything in here public record is there anything confidential is there an employee being spoken about is there you know whatever all the the different reasons why something might not be public and all those emails then have to be redacted so that would come to us but if you ask for you know emails between you know the the clerk's office and you know Jason or something like that for last week I would I would assume they can answer that themselves because it's only a week long how many emails could there be yeah I I I'm actually kind of surprised there isn't like a set criteria on what you would have to review and I was just thinking about I don't think you've ever reviewed an Oprah request that someone has requested of of me and I'm sure the rest of the council is the same um I I don't know I just more Alysa could more handle your questions because she's the one who handles the opal requests normally um okay that's fine and then you had said four employees and you had you've had four employees you said for the last three years I think at least at least the last two years but yeah I don't I kind of forget exactly when Andrew started but before Andrew we had another employee so I think it's been four pretty consistent but now the I'll call the um assignment change like if you go back to Scott um when Scott was here um he didn't just do prosecutor because we had multiple people working on prosecutor um where now there's one person in charge of of being the prosecutor and that's Andrew when John was here was there five employees or four I think there was five but then you L like Scott left right John kind of had his own thing and Alissa did her thing and you were kind of down that second uh assistant Corporation Council that you typically rely on for your work I believe you're correct my recollection is we were in we every so often like maybe twice in my since I've been here my tenure we've hit five but it's always disappeared really quick so we've never been consistently five for like a year or something like that it's like a month or two and then someone leaves for some reason and then you had said you were down I think 4% that's correct year over-year are you do are is any of your salary lines coming from hpu I can't remember who the people were I think it was I don't think you were in that right no he is not in that yeah no the the the the reduction in in corporation council's office is is I think most directly seen in the special counsel line got it which which closely mirrors what we spent last year net um all right here's a couple of questions from I was going to say the audience that crazy from the residents well I don't know if they're all residents but uh have the expenses for the special Council been within the budgeted amount for the past threee Municipal budgets I Appropriations for various special Council on Council meetings agenda rather regularly I think to that um Mr aloy I probably what they're talking about is when we give an individual more money but the actual dollar amount that we budget for we've never spent more than that it's just contract for 20 grand and then we're making a 25 that's correct and we purposely do that to to monitor the attorney's work and also uh to control the outside Council right so every time we hit a certain Milestone we want to look at it and we have the council has the opportunity to say say wait a minute this is you know tell us more about this litigation do we want to continue to do this so that is purposefully done in Li of even though we know litigation might cost us you know if we had to guess $100,000 for the year we don't just give a $100,000 we do like you know we make up a number but it's 20 or 25 or 15 whatever it is to make sure we're keeping an eye on great and then what were the expenditures the last few years for outside Council um what sort of issues I can't recall what they I I know the shared said 300 did it say 300 the what the amount is 950,000 what was it last year do you recall last year's expenditure was was right around that but it was 1 million and change we just lowered by 100,000 so 1,50,000 do you remember the year before or not really not really but I know it was it's gone down every year okay when I first started it was about 1.4 or 5 million is my recollection correct um and outside Council what sort of issues there uh what sort of issues do they deal with uh a lot a lot of times it's a land use um large litigation we don't have the ability to do that um land use large litigation certain lawsuits uh affordable housing sometimes rent control now is an issue that we all we're all aware of uh thank you and then the last one how do we pay the do the attorneys for all the boards get paid out of your line item no the boards have their own budgets in my understanding correct thank you uh wait I think there's one more I can oh no it's not all right and then we have Haney thank you council president thank so I have a few questions uh and one of them goes back to the Oprah that we heard uh from legal and from the city clerk's office that we have an exorbitant amount of Oprah amongst the highest in the state and the question I ask is why when there's cities that are much bigger with a lot more cases that you would think in terms of proportion to population what is it that the public can't get that they're forced to come in and sign a piece of paper and say give me X Y and Z why isn't it digital and online and easier to find so that we don't get overwhelmed with these requests if the information is just given in the past I've seen council members at City Council meetings doing op requests and not just bizarre that even a member of the council has to dig for information so if a council person can't get it I don't think the member of the public going get it very easily either so it's more of a suggestion that that's not a badge of honor that you have this many opal requests it's actually saying that the information is more difficult to get than it needs to be number two with respect to litigation and the size of the litigation that's around there's some much much larger ones that I've seen this year in the past year than I've seen in the past decade and one of them which I'm not a part of is to do that Avalon Bay and that um the zudo in that large suit and you're dealing with something that's going to change the value of their properties and the tens of millions if not the hundreds of millions collectively how could we sit here and think a million dollars that the person on the other side again I'm not a part of that lawsuit would not fight more ferociously because of the amount that's at risk and wouldn't the city have to also defend that and be prepared to be overwhelmed with that because we understand that suit's underway I just can't see how it's not something abnormal from the past and that it should be addressed in terms of uh amount of staff in terms of amount of dollars that you have to protect the city uh to defend um with respect to the board lawsuits I heard that the individual boards have their own budget the question there is that where does the Overflow come from that if they have a $200,000 budget the zoning board and the planning board when they lose their cases if they're forced to pay legal fees is that something the insurance covers is that something that rolls into Mr alya's budget U because it' be unpredictable he wouldn't manage that case he wouldn't be able to foresee it um how would that be dealt with and where would that money come from again because there's been more lawsuits at the board level that we're seeing and I think that should be looked into why are these boards being sued more and do they have the appropriate budget to protect and to defend these lawsuits so you can jump in at any point with either one of those but um if you can please so thank you with regard to the current litigation um all the litigation that's going on in the city um we certainly believe that the budget um that has been prepared um is adequate to um pay for any cost including outside legal council cost that we will be incurred this year um with regard to any litigation I'm not speaking on any specific litigation you pointed out that the higher the stakes you know the more money that people will spend um I certainly believe that's correct um but we've taken that into account with regard um to formulating our budget uh request for outside legal council um with regard to the size of um any litigation that's currently going on versus past years um I can say that I since I've been here um I can probably go through year after year um there's always one or two large um costly pieces of litigation that seem to be going on every year that you kind of look at you're like wow this you know this one litigation is eating a substantial part of of my budget um so that's again something that we've we've considered and looked into um regarding board expenses you know to date I can say in my tenure the boards have done very well in managing their budget um I don't recall but maybe I wasn't involved in a board running out of money um but internally sometimes we'll do um as you know at the end of the year transfers that the board approves um and my recollection is we even did some last year for from my office to someone else's office um but so that's that's how that those are covered um you know you get to move the money around kind of at the end of the year if someone has unforeseen expenses and that's why we always try even though we budget uh certain amounts we always try to come in under we don't try to spend our budgets that's certainly not from the legal perspective any any any of that and then the insurance that uh meaning if you oh so Insurance yes so we are involved we are a member of the GIF meaning hobok and the city is a member of the GIF a gif is a joint Insurance Fund it's a bunch of municip ities that come together to form an insurance company um and in many instances when the city is sued the GIF actually covers it and they have GIF attorneys that is separate and distinct from my budget um doesn't impact my budget my budget's only impacted by those things not covered by CHF so if you have an employee Personnel someone which happens often you know director or someone gets let go and he's sue the city again years back the fees were similar what the city would spend and what the plaintive would spend but in the last few years the outside cost of legal is far far higher than what you guys are you know proposing at the 150 Mark and you're up against attorneys that are getting paid two three four times that amount so if you have an employee that sues the city and they sue you for legal fees and they win does that come from the GIF or do you have to all of a sudden put that in your budget your sorry from your out of your budget yep I understand your question so normally when an employee a former employee would sue us for discrimination or something that is more often than not covered by the GIF so the GIF would assign an attorney and then the city has the deductible um and once it meets that deductible it's all on the JF um so there is you know it's like it's like your car insurance for lack of better word you have a deductible if you get a car AC you pay the first $500 um the city has the same thing and it's done in percentages um but then at some point in time if the expenses come too high or even the Judgment or a settlement comes too high then the GIF is picking it up and then for outside in terms of non-employee like that Avalon lawsuit I talked about if the city's forc forced to pay their legal fees does that also come from the GIF or does that come from your if it's not covered by the GIF it's not covered by the GIF so if it's not covered by the GIF we'll pay not only attorney's fees um if there are any outside legal fees meaning if we hire you know if we handle in house there there's no fees other than our salaries but if it goes outside we have to pay the attorney fees as well as any judgment there's no insurance you know if it's not in the GIF coverage then you're on your own can I just so if it's not a gif attorney if the GIF isn't representing us the city's paying for it that's correct and I guess you would just do e emergency Appropriations or what would that do to you if again if suit I'm not involved with a large suit up there and we all admit it for big Stakes so there's going to be a lot of money going around just curious if something like that happened and it was A2 million or $3 million legal bill it would obviously blow out your budget would we be forced to bond or what would what would director Freeman have to do because it wouldn't be expected it would just sort of happen that's a a finance question and again you can do emergency priation sometimes depending on what it is you may or may not be able to bond also just that the size of the Judgment you know whether you're going to appeal whether does a stay so there's lots of issues that that would have to be looked at got it thank you thank you Roberto hi um this is my first time listening to this so I just wanted to get clarification what is the difference between special Council and outside Council I mean are we talking about different types or is outside Council included in the number for special Council I'm sorry it's the same it's the same there's no different outside Council special Council it's someone not not an employee an attorney a firm that's hired outside the city okay okay that that was it the the previous uh the previous discussion answered all the other questions thank you sorry if that was confusing switching those two words Manny yes hello and good evening again council president um my question would be this um to corporate Council corporate Council this is um again for me um like a refresh a course from last year corporate Council 101 within regards to the allocations for the um outside Council and the special Council so um it was clear the discussion you had earlier but I want to clear up a facts so then if let's say I'm reading a agenda and in the agenda it says um there is an allocation in a resolution for a certain amount that a hypothetical it's for the I don't know the Sha treat and they need a certain amount of money for a special Council so that is not from your fund of 9,000 whatever it was am I correct so do you understand what he's asking no I'm I'm not sure what you're asking what he's saying is if the Shad tree commission for some reason had to hire special counsel um would it come out of their budget or would it come out of your special Council line is that what I think the shade tree commissions um not an odd example but maybe Jason help I think they would actually come out of my budget because they're not like an independent board like so uh the zoning board and planning board they have their own attorney their own board it's a board that can sue and be sued so it's really a separate board from the city where the shade tree commission I don't I don't believe they have a legal budget so it would probably come from uh okay so for clarity so then yes a rent leveling board or a planning board anything with the word board would be and would have its own funds if they were sued or they sue someone to pay for it themselves it it is not necessarily going to come from your budget unless it's something extraordinary yes I think I I don't know that I would say anybody that has the name board but yes those other there are other boards with their own budgets their own legal council um and those boards you just mentioned are are good examples um that have their own budget and they should be able to cover their own costs but when if not it falls on me again there's you know there's no it's mind right we're all one big city so if someone runs out of money we always try to do budget transfers so we stay within budget overall thank you Mr cor Council I just want to clarify um being a person that ask the question a lot in in Council meetings I just want to let people know that um because we do get frustrated with but with the um special or the increase but we just want to make it clear that everybody has their budgets they work within their budgets you have yours specifically for a special counsil or outside counsil in this case you did not go over or exceed what you allocated last year calendar year so this year you were able to say well based on what I used last year I could come in lower this year because I know that I spent this much right and that is again my question would be or or rather My Clarity would be for for your budget meaning that's how you came in under budget and that's how you don't have to always spend your money for your special coun when I mean money your funds we're always trying to keep the money down obviously we're not trying to spend it we're trying to save as much as we can for the taxpayer so whatever we can handle in house we do we also try to manage the outside attorneys special Council outside attorney same thing um to keep you know their expenditures in line with whatever the litigation whatever object whatever they're working on whatever their project is and as you know from asking questions and feel free to ask I love your questions during Council meetings when we and the council approves a resolution that says an outside attorney or a law firm is approved to do and they don't exceed $50,000 and they're approv to work on this or don't exceed $20,000 more likely than not you're going to see us come and we're going to raise that in the future that is just a control that the council seems to like but I love that makes us monitor the attorney and make sure the outside attorneys are keeping in check they're doing the work and they're not just you know spending the taxpayer money we turn around we haven't looked at them in a year and they spent $100,000 we only give them small increments so we continually watch what they're doing all right correct I follow that and and I'm hoping everybody else does um one last final question by the way I had a saying but I'll say it in the council meeting in regards to to what you just mentioned in espanol but um my final thing would be um when you were speaking of possibly adding an employee um you were saying that we would save in the budget roughly in your calculations what I I Tred to do them quickly but um roughly um 100,000 additional or 100,000 that we just save from no 100,000 addition oh okay okay all right thank you again Madame council president if I could thank uh corporate Council for the presentation and uh for their explanations thank you you thank you Melissa Blanco oh Melissa I haven't written down my question specifically so bear with me while I try to word this um in uh Brian in the case of appeals um does the council need to agree with the mayor's office on the appeal because looking at numbers and looking at probabilities of of either winning or losing the case we are failing big time there um so how does that appeal get a go does the council have a a say in it do you um like I'm I'm dumbfounded um you know because I have to I've had to set you know uh multi tens of billions in reserves on Le legal cases and um uh it would be not something that would just be oh we're just going to appeal this it have to be even uh Consulting outside um not just attorneys but those in the know uh on the LI potential liability and a uh of a uh of a loss and it seems that hoken has just appealed appealed appealed repeatedly so you get my drift of asking how that has been able to go forward and how we might be able to re that in um at first I have to say that I I think I disagree with your belief and maybe I'm wrong I'll have to I'll have to do an anal analyze all the cases Monarch would be one of them okay so there there there are some appeals that we do um the council has control of appeals uh they say through the budget sometimes um not just through the budget the decision to appeal is a yes or no who gives an approval on that because we have a ridiculous large outflow on to a person with experience in large large cases and uh and continuously appealing uh when it's a dead horse case you see what I'm saying so how is the decision going forward who decides because it's not it has not been a A wise choice in a lot of these cases and involves very large dollars the administration would decide in my opinion the council certainly has say but ultimately the administration decides but yeah that's problem that's problematic uh so we need to do something uh just the council listening in please and uh with that because I mean uh I'd have to go back and O everything but you'd have to and and show you you know case law and whatnot to show that this is just a ridiculous concept to just let someone you know pull the trigger on uh in multiple appeals second uh so if if the council can uh write up some uh something that will give them uh the power to make these decisions because the dollars are extraordinary um second question and I hope the council can pick up on that is when uh we have funds that um excuse me that are set aside for Parks or something we voted on it I actually held on to the campaign flyer that said what we were voting on in council at one point the question came up when all uh when all of these legal fees were coming out of a uh beautification or Parks fund or whatever it's called um that well wait a minute I don't think the people believe they voted on it look at proportionally what we spent on lawyers versus what the intent of the monies are for and then they try to come back and Council and say oh well the people knew it and we and we have uh no no number involved too so I'd like to also make sure that the um that that fund whatever's name is not touched for legal fees any further I don't even necessarily agree with this idea of increasing taxes we should even keep that 2% going when we've got um suggested uh increases in budget above inflation but at the very least close off tapping into that fund for legal fees if we can get those two ordinances written we will be saving Mega Bucks uh on legal fees thank you very much thank you Melissa thank you Cheryl yeah hi good evening um I'm a little lost right now after that um but um yeah I'm just wondering if there's a rule of thumb in other words the boards budgets are attached to a department so zoning planning rent control that would be in the community development budget I'm trying to think I'm just trying to figure figure out like is that just the rule of thumb or and forgive me council president you're actually on my screen so if council president got sued is that your budget or is that clerk I is is there a rule of thumb for us as the public to know beyond zoning planning rent control board what legal fees are attached to what departments so you know and and just another example so if something happened to some people who are playing basketball on some Hoboken you know supported Recreation something and they got hurt and they sued the city would that be Recreation or would that be Corporation count where is the rule of thumb I was trying to give examples but how public know if it's your budget or some other budget and what and and then if it's another budget how do I know where it goes I certainly appreciate the question and the examples you gave are easy to answer right because if council president or suit or someone falls in the city 99% of the time that's going to be covered by the GIF so it's nobody's it's it's nobody's budget meaning it's not coming from the city's budget other than the payments the city makes to the GIF which which are like you know you're buying Insurance um so generally speaking everything's coming through the legal department budget I think the easiest way to answer your question is I'll get back to you um because it's all all public record obviously and I'll provide you with other than my budget where are other legal expenses and and I think it was councilman Russo asked for it earlier where are other legal expenses so I know as you indicated Community Development is one so Chris Brown director Brown has some legal expenses in his budget I'm not sure who else may or may not have legal expenses so when you look at those legal expenses we'll look at and I'll provide that to you not only what are those legal expenses being provided for um meaning so is that just legal expenses because they're um taking property or answering questions and things of that nature or they're actually handling litigation so there is a distinct difference there because if they're just providing legal advice um to a board or whatever you know that's one legal expense and the other a lot of the questions seem to revolve around litigation and active litigation um but once we figure out where all the money is um and I don't think there's much other than than Corporation council's office then that will your your question um but with regard to someone being sued that always comes through my office okay so if thank you and I if I understand you correctly it sounds to me like generally outside of Corporation Council for legal expenses that are lawsuits the the other by and large and there you may turn up other things but by and large if there's other legal expenses it's going into Community Development by and large share so and this is I don't think so much a question but maybe a thought for I don't know future budgeting because that seems to me like then for Staffing purposes under the Community Development umbrella they are getting impacted in ways that other departments don't which may inhibit the ability to have maybe the needed staff in I mean l use is a it's it's a huge huge portion of any municipalities costs so just a thought but thank you that's it thank you thank you Cheryl uh I am going to allow Melissa to speak again allow Melissa did you have another question that didn't work for some reason did you have another question Melissa uh yes this is directly or or Point uh uh related to Cheryl's question which she she makes a very good point and she was asking when there's a transfer not uh how frequent but when and how would the public know was the question and in the case in the case no matter how small the case but when it happens again you could have situations where a very low frequency but High severity and you wna you want to wrap your arms around it so um so what Cheryl was asking is very pertinent of how would you know um because you would in essence be doing both both the board and the city has a ledger you would have an account that would do this probably isn't the right terminology but an interledger transfer and and to Cheryl's Point again about how would the public know and the impact that it had The Ledger uh account itself that would accomodate that transfer would be an interledger transfer would have have a separate account and every account has a definition with the account okay so um that transfer if it was going through uh uh Community Affairs or whatever the development um then you would see it directly and you want to see it directly in there because uh you don't want to say oh let's grab it from this other department instead you know uh that that you know it that you can uh track it with audit so that's where you would uh go find it in the the actual Ledger and make sure that you're not uh swapping out departments between and when you're doing the transfer thank you thank you Melissa thank you um do any other council members have any questions for Corporation Council no thank you very much Mr aloya thank you for thank you have a great night all right we'll see you tomorrow we're back back here six o'clock tomorrow night before we go because I don't want to get in trouble because we started this as a regular meeting do we have to have a public portion no like a reg oh yes oh yes yeah public you have I mean just a I'm not saying any one has to talk all right if anyone wishes to speak in public portion raise your hand on these issues no don't we have to have just a regular public portion in a because we yes that's correct it's a public meeting we should have a public portion yeah Manny thank you council president I am availing myself to the public portion because I didn't want to raise my hand again for the corporate Council um I would just like to say and remind folks that um tomorrow is a very important um day because there's three things happening um another budget hearing a I believe a um School District um presentation I believe is they're presenting their budget as well and a zoning board uh meeting which is very important because it's um about Third Street in Washington um in regards to the Capital One building so members of the public are torn between so many very important uh things going on in the city so um I'm grateful that you're going to present uh the meetings on the YouTube um I guess that would help members of the public that are going to be in in any of the other situations but I'm just making you and the public aware council president that there are many many things going on and I hope that members of the public are aware of that and and um uh I guess uh plan accordingly uh to said uh uh events and once again um council president I appreciate the time and I also wanted to say one thing that I was looking through my old papers from last year there was a whole separate conversation um in the budget in regards to uh Council um members um having uh their personal devices um being provided Ed by the city I'm sure that that's not going to be um in this budget but I believe that there was a conversation of you getting um to to reduce paperwork and stuff like that and I don't know where where that ever ended I don't know if it ever came back in consideration but if you follow what I'm saying in regards to the the um tablets or or computers that were supposed to be um perhaps introduced so anyway that's just a curiosity that I had and just because I was looking at the papers and again thank you council president I'm not going to take up no more time but I just hope that members of the public are aware of those three um uh different events that are happening tomorrow thank you very much for this meeting and have a good evening everyone thank you um and just uh Rod had texted me just to make sure everyone knows he is going to put this on both YouTube and Facebook this evening um we have no other members of the public signed up to speak motion to close public portion motion second all favor I I I motion to close the meeting I good night everyone thank you so much everyone thank I'll see you tomorrow out for now