e e e e We Ready um call to order uh I hereby announce pursuant to section five of the open public meetings act that adequate notice of this meeting has been transmitted on July 24th 2024 by the board of administrative officer to the Asbury Park Press the Two River Times the Township Clerk and has been posted in the meeting room and in the entrance hall in town hall and pursuant to se section 13 of the open public meetings act uh Courtney roll call please Mr Martin Mr Akerson here Mr Emma here Mr Fagan here Mr King here Mr L Mountain Miss L mountain is absent Mr Man here miss pelus here Mr Silberman here miss Pina Miss Pina is absent Mr Bell Mr Bell's absent thank you uh let's please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I Al to the flag the United States of America and to the for it stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all uh please remain standing for a moment of silence for our police military and first respond thank you okay uh only one item on the agenda for today uh item number one area in need of Redevelopment investigation report for Block 13 lot 15 presentation of a preliminary investigation by Leon s aan Inc as to whether the study area known as block 13 lot 15 and 23 Main Street qualifies as a non-c condemnation area in need of Redevelopment as defined under the local Redevelopment and Housing law at njsa 4012 A-1 um special councel right y so we have special counsel here for special council's here on behalf of the township um Andy Bear so Andy if you want to just introduce yourself to the board and the public good evening members my name is Andre I'm special Council to the township been working with the township attorney's office on this Redevelopment project so I'll be here to assist there's any legal questions thank you uh at this time we have Christine Bell here to talk about the report that was provided um from Leon S A vacan Inc Mr B and we'll swear in our Professionals for the record to to tell the whole truth the TRU help you for the record art professional thanks thank you sorry um I'm Christine Bell um I'm a licensed professional planner with a bakan um and I'm here to talk to you tonight about this area in need of Redevelopment investigation report so um block 13 lot 15 um on Main Street in Hell Road it's um known as the site kind of but I think everyone's familiar with where it is um so we reviewed the study area to determine if it met the statutory requirements of an area in need of Redevelopment without condemnation so that means that um no property can be taken by m domain without condemnation part um it's a the property you know consists of an office building that's been occupied by various tenants over time including credential and Vonage we looked at the current zoning and surrounding uses um we visited the site in April of this year um we did a review of the tax assessment and appeal data um in the past 12 years uh tax appeals have been filed eight times um in 2022 um the assess value of the property was is$ 3,875 th000 and then after the appeal that dropped to 24, $24,500 th000 in 2023 the assessed value of the site was 36,6 52,800 um and after the appeal that value dropped to 22 m750 th000 um so you can see there's a dramatic decrease in the value of the site um in the tax appeal court uh so Vonage was The Last Tenant that fully filled the space they vacated the space during Co um there was a lease for approximately one sixth of the building that expired in 2024 in January of 2024 been vacant um since that time so in our review um looking at the statutory criteria we found that it met uh criteria A and B for an area in need of Redevelopment which a is the gener generality of buildings are substandard unsafe unsanitary dilapidated or obsolescent or possess any of such characteristics or are so lacking in light air or space as to be conducive to un wholesome living or working conditions and uh criteria B is the discontinu of the use of the building previously used for commercial manufacturing or industrial purposes the abandonment of such buildings or the same being allowed to fall into such a great state of disrepair as to be untenable um and um you know this is a large office building that um kind of the real estate uh market and the demand for office space has really drastically changed ched within the last four years even um and we felt that uh you know the tax appeal showed um and the fact that um they haven't had a full lease of this site in quite some time um that it me the criteria um to be designated an area in need of Redevelopment okay questions um is anyone on this uh board have any questions of Miss Bell was that your testimony is that because I read about uh a b CDE e f all those you're not going to go into a or b you're just saying that I just said that we found it met the criteria for am all right that was quick I didn't prepare on my notes yet but I'll start um on page four you mentioned there's an on-site sew treatment plant yes and that seems to me to be a unique component of this uh property are there any um uh observations you have about that I assume that that was built also in 1977 and so what is the um status of that i' I've heard that that has not met uh the standards of what a modern sew treatment plant would be and further it discharges directly into category one stream I'm gonna let the engineer answer that question yes Mr so did he swear okay uh Bob yo um tnm Associates Township engineer true there is a what they call a sanitary sewer package plant on the property it was um designed and constructed when the original campus was constructed many years ago uh it is currently regulated by the D it did have to get all all D permits at the time of its design and construction um it is continually being monitored uh right now it correct because the southern part of the township is within a uh a septic area it's not in a sewer service area uh you either have to do a septic system or you do these package plants as they call them and it does discharge directly into um a C1 category stream however it is permitted by the DP it is currently being uh maintained to the current standards and it being up um the current the permit is current and the package plant in its current condition is operational and acceptable to the state so is it in disrepair no it is not if you were going to build a new building there would you say the plant as it stands now is adequate or would you recommend a new package I could not say that without knowing what's going to be built there I think um sewer you know obviously the engine speak to this B but sewer demand is based off the so um what's there might work for anything that's proposed in the future or it may not depending on the anticipated use and you know so with with the package plant what would happen any anything that's developed on the property more than likely they would look to continue to use that uh sanitary sewer package plan they would have to go back to the D for a an amended permit for whatever use that it will be proposed um if it's a lesser use than what it was designed for then it can continue to operated in its current condition if the use is more intense that the the system cannot handle it then it'll be up to the D as to whether they approve any kind of expansion to that sewage plant or they say no it cannot expand because uh of the regulated discharge into that C1 stream so that's all with the state and if you know obviously this is the first step in any kind of Redevelopment for this property if and when that potential Redevelopment occurs that will be part of both the um planning board application and subsequent applications to the D and at that time they'll reg they'll rule as to the condition and whether it needs upgrades or if it can stay the way it is so in the short of what you're saying is between the developer and bottom line that is that is correct it's on the developer it's not on the township do you have any input into that though Mr Sor I was that's with the question so the set theable is that issue that's right I was going to say that qualifies and the committee has asked for the bo to the plan report and make a back to the committee as whether it meets statut criteria to be declared an area need Redevelopment and the issues Mr and Mr Fagen are speaking of really go to a what ultimately could application but B the next step in a Redevelopment process is a Redevelopment plan which clearly when you're looking at potential uses for the property whether or not the sewer can accommodate that potential use when you're doing a Redevelopment plan could be a factor in your determination as to whether or not you want to adop revelop so then basically talk about density we're not here to talk about traffic we're not here to talk about the taxes or anything else the revenue that this would this is off the table right now it's not until an application would come before us so this so this that's not our job at the moment it's just to so this is this is the first step right we um did this investigation to determine whether or not we felt um the area met the re to be designated in area and need of Redevelopment once that is done then we can make a Redevelopment plan for you know what type of uses we think are appropriate for that site and how to potentially get more tax revenue back on you know the books in the future yeah I mean I was gonna say something along those this is similar to when we had the other property corre where we got too deep in the Leeds on a lot of ancillary issues we really the only issue we're here to discuss is whether this qualifies for a non- condemnation area of Redevelopment and I think we should limit our questions and comments later on that point um I mean the only thing really is I I just want to hear from Christine how it meets I know we read A and B but how does the property show that it uh that A and B were met that's what I just haven't heard so we really you know we looked at the um the tax assessment data and the tax appeals um like I said uh in eight of the past 12 years um appeals have been filed for the site um because you know they felt that um what it was assessed at was not what um the actual value of the site was um for 2022 and 2023 we the value that was uh determined after the appeal I think uh Mr Bayer has those uh settlement agreements um but it was a significant decrease in um the taxes the township received um and the value in those how does the yeah I just don't see that part your professional so um B in particular um you know it's a clear indication that the building um that had been previously used is has the use of it has been discontinued um by the uh the tax assessment going down um we also for uh criteria a um just the generality of the building the fact that it has not been um tened so um it had maybe hasn't been maintained to the same um level that it had been um it's uh an obsolescent um working condition it's not really a building that um is used um in the way it was intend well can be used in the way it was intended that type of use has kind ofc OB in terms of the office basically because most people are working remote office space is not right and we don't see we're not seeing you know those large offices we used to uh companies are you know creating an office space it's very the trend is towards like a smaller office space because people are working hybrid or remote and not coming in every day they're not having the large campus like buildings you used to and maybe just go through how many square feet the building is you're saying it's large other I I would just push back a bit on just because they file a tax appeal and they win doesn't mean it's not rentable in fact you could could have made the same argument about Bell Works which is now 90% least Andy I happen to work as of today right next to you in B Works my office is right there we just moved out today because the rent has doubled since we've been there so I'm no longer a tenant in Bell works so I would make the argument if Bell works is 90% least it's not 90% full but it's 90% least and rents are through the roof in that building that there may actually be a need for uh not maybe one company taking it over but Redevelopment just like a bell works right so so then you would be agreeing with me um because no you're saying it's unleas in the in the way it's set up current well a developer would have to come in and renovate it just like they did Bell works yeah I mean look isn't that what happened with bell Works wasn't it wasn't it made no I'm saying wasn't it made an area of Redevelopment and then it was redeveloped and then then it was rented so we were proposing the same thing here basically area of Redevelopment correct make it you know make it sellable and then people move in right and are you seeing a in the municipalities I've got more um so the argument well the pictures that were provided it didn't seem that it was in any way shape or form comparable to what we saw up on Crawford Hill it seemed the building was in much better condition based upon the pictures I did not see an aerial view of the property I understand there's a courtyard in the middle of it I I didn't see any something like a picture from a drone to be able to see where the footprint was but I I grant you that to um to cross this threshold is rather low so when we talk about the A and the B I'll grant you that you're kind of there it doesn't take much to go beyond that um but to to our the point about first we say we couldn't talk about taxes yet that's half your argument is about the taxes so regarding the taxes for a moment um the argument seems to be that um there's because the building was uh is assessed at 34 35 million um and uh the property was sold for 17 million that for some reason that would need to be redesigned to bring it back up to 35 million it seemed to be the argument where in fact maybe it's that that's the market value what someone's ready willing and able to pay for the property based upon the condition um in page 11 um you talk about the Redevelopment plan will reinforce community's goals articulated in the master plan do you know specifically what um what those goals are in the homeown minister plan I'm looking for um so I my name is not on this document but I do not know um I can certainly look at your master what what goals um I think uh this a Redevelopment plan would reinforce that off the top okay further on page 11 it says um that it will accommodate the state's smart growth principles I'm not familiar with the state's smart growth principles uh Mr bear may be um more than we are so SM is the state smart growth principles are really just um creating you know like more walkable environmentally friendly um kind of sustainable design kind of more people centered okay um so theoretically um if this property was redeveloped you could create um more of a community than just a office building that people are driving to at the end of okay now this I understand is in a state area planning five I believe so yes and what what is generally what is that I'm just checking through to so planning area five is um typically uh an environmentally sensitive planning area so any development that occurs here um would have to meet those State planning principles um on page eight it talks about the current zoning yes and it says um something about provision for assisting in lower income housing is a required element of any new development what does that mean so that means that um in uh the O2 business Zone um uh the provision to uh create um affordable housing would be required so if you were to build that's typically a set aside um you know if you were to build say five residential units one of them needs to be affordable but the way that a commercial project contributes to affordable housing is through the payment of a nonresidential development feate law so that's two and a half% of equalize the value if and again it would depend upon the how the property would ultimately be repurposed under a Redevelopment but hypothetically if there was a assisted living there or something to that nature there there's a required set aside at least Medica BS are are available to low and modate income households but again here the question really is that that underlying zoning would be if the board designates this an area development plan that Redevelopment plan would deal with those issues and that could be superseding zoning so it would basically eliminate Z it could be either supering zoning or overlay zoning under the law leaving the underlying zoning that will be ultimately up to when as to what whether that Z underlying Z I mean I got some of there so you done West or uh well that cleared that up but can I paraphrase what you said if it's um if resident because it may I'm not talking about this particular property but in general if it's a purely commercial development you're saying there can be money set aside or given to the town to dedicate for low income somewhere else it's paid into the Township's affordable housing and under La thats to be us for hous so for inst here in home monies from that fund were used to acquire property where the V road development is yeah right so that was done with housing trust but under state law any nonresidential development which is commercial development right needs to pay into the but I think we're get off track again are we getting off track I mean I I'd rather just focus on the issue of whether this is no what was that wait you say something W you sure I would yeah no I'm here Wes to talk about the item about whether this meets the qualification as an that's what the way I'm reading it does this place qualify as a non-c comination area in need of Redevelopment that's it that's what we're here to and I don't appreciate that little that little side comment there no right now our only job as the planning board is to determine whether the Vonage property is in need of Redevelopment that's Bas that's it that's it if that if okay so we know why we're here tonight just a question just a question do if we do everything goes back to Township committee Township committee if there's ever with whatever developer does has to come before Township committee before it even would reach our our Podium here I totally understand so we understand why why we're here tonight to see whether this develop this meets meets the criteria right then my question is there's two mentions of lwi income housing and I assume that's why Andy's here so why is Andy here tonight if if we're not talking about low income no I'm I'm actually here I am affordable housing counsel to the township you're on our side so you're here for a reason but it's got nothing to do with the whether it meets the criteria today I have I'm also special as I explain in the beginning I'm also special counsel for the township and I've been advising and working with Mike Collins on Redevelopment projects which included CW Hil for instance so I'm really here and I happen to know about affordable housing so I can answer your question but I'm actually here for the purpose of just assisting and Mak whe the on the issue of whether it meets the criter yeah and and you know I'm here I have no agenda okay I'm here here just to I read what's in the criteria and I'm here to find out if this qualifies under the criteria that's it and all these discussions and all these thousands of questions you may have will certainly be asked I'm sure in the future once they come up with a development in other words tonight's not the time that's not tonight for it I mean the thing is we're here to discuss whether it qualifies there's two points and that's it and the question is do those like so if I ask uh Christine you know the the first point of being the is one it just has to qualify under one of these letters right that's it doesn't need to be two or five it's not Andor it's one it's just one just one and and the first one which is a which says the building it talks about the condition of the building right okay first I will say that I haven't heard I haven't heard you speak at all regarding the charact the condition of the building itself except for the taxes and the fact that it's so I did say it's um the generality of the building is obsolescent um but that doesn't make it lacking in light or air that's that no one could work there it's not unworkable it's not unlivable you know it I think more your point is option is B the first part which says the discontinuance of the use of the building right okay so that's really all we're talking about here great because if have you set foot in the building I did and what's the condition of the building the building inside is actually um as far as Office Buildings go please uh I'm not asking of the public right now it's very nice inside okay so really the issue is B right so whether the use of the building is Obsolete and we can't use it as an office space anymore right that's what it comes down to right the rest of this is all just uh bells and whistles right okay am I am I am I missing something there anyone fil Wes am I missing something is you want something to add to that or no not okay all right discit we're not sir all right you'll have a chance in a little bit you can come up there and make a comment ask a question okay okay um yeah anyone else have anything to ask of uh of Miss Bell no okay at this time uh we'll allow the right there please come up if you want to come up and say something have a just comment questions first or questions in oh if you have questions or comments you can come up and ask them now please we're not here for hours try and be as concise as you can um so I'll open the floor to the public if anyone wants to come up to discuss the issue at hand not future use not sanitary systems just whether this should be reclassified okay oh all right so come on up J comment um question believe it or not from me jn8 ladw drive so j yanella y a n n e l l o so after that whole journey are we saying or you're saying this is an area in need of Redevelopment because that type of office building in its entirety as a campus is no longer valued like it was so it's an impaired value it's an impaired asset it's an impaired tax ratable and so we as a town need to figure out how to ideally work with the owner to try to improve that value is that fair or no is that is that where we are no well Christine can answer the first part I would say the second part is not yeah issue I think the first part I would agree with um the second part is not the issue here tonight we're just okay okay and when when we do a Redevelopment does that mean it goes to Pilot taxes if if this gets approved do we go to Pilot no not necessarily okay all right but just for the record and again I'm not not sir just make your comment you're good you're all good my comment is swear okay can you swear me in to tell the whole truth yes I'm not an engineer I'm not a building expert the building may have some leaks I walked around that building it's in pretty good shape it's actually pretty cool inside so the idea to suggest this building is you know is is just complete nonsense thank you okay thank you sir patri trus 56 Line Road a comment could I have a secular affir what you're saying accurate yes just spell your name for the record please trus t r i s c h i TTA thank when I came to Homedale 41 years ago credential was the major employer and a major taxpayer to homeow uh to like it 2,000 people work there they U at weekday uh it couldn't compare with Del Works where 7,000 people worked uh my comment is today that's 40 years later 45 years later the building is grossly uh outdated nobody no Corporation builds a 350,000 square foot office space anymore I agree with um the planners uh this area clearly needs to be redeveloped into something that's useful to home Del having it sitting there vacant makes no sense at all um it doesn't pay anywhere near the taxes it paid uh when I first came to hell it was a m credential was a major taxpayer AT&T was a major taxpayer W Bell Works let's move forward Redevelopment times have changeed let's do something with it that makes sense for 2024 thank you thank you hello question or comment comment swearing I sure Anthony pillo president of home first a I I believe in the Redevelopment right it's all about making homes nicer and spruing it up I completely understand that but when I was reading the Continuing Care retirement community potentially coming into the area they set up some red flags for us so more just a comment for the plan board as you're thinking about this right now or in 20123 home those first a did 175 calls service just to the existing nursing homes we have in town That's not including the new one down in 100 Comm way as of June of this year we are projected to double that number for 2024 if we add another 300 plus beds in the town you're going be taxing our volunteers even more by adding another 200 plus calls for just that facility so again just a comment if we're all thinking about this I agree with Redevelopment I just don't agree with that Redevelopment thank you thank you going once anyone else going twice before I close it out all right thank you we closing uh questions and comments from the public at this time um oh go right for vote we don't have an internal discussion yeah uh is people on this legal perspective I think I've studied the but the issue before the board is whether you're persuaded that based on the report and the testimony that statutory criteria for this uh property to be cleared in area is to be declared an area in need of Redevelopment has been met and then you would make a recommendation to the right okay um does the board anyone want to have our own little discussion outside the public before we vote or we all think we're ready to go oh on I mean but the public stays here for that oh okay anyone else have anything to say I just I I can't get past criteria B where in the report it says it's in such a great state of disrepair as to be untenable but your testimony was that it's in great shape so can both of those things be true I don't think so so so that there's punctuation I know it's not your report um so that is really just the criteria you can meet part of right and we're saying the discontinuance of the building um meets the criteria it's for for criteria R I agree it's not written the best but it's they're for individual CR they're not ANS they're ores got so so I would agree that um the threshold for approving this is extremely low just about anything could be deemed um in need of Redevelopment whether it's tax whether it's um non tenant even though the building's in good shape the commercial Market just isn't there so I would be in favor of uh moving forward with this okay let me what happens if we don't approve it it has to be red it has be built as one building for one company what if we do we don't approve this tonight yeah that that's a much bigger question unless unless it changes the underly zoning St it would have to be the same use as what's there right now basically that can stay vac for many many many no but but but there's from what I'm not an expert in this if I'm speaking out of turn Marty and or um I'm sorry Mr bear Mr bear can comment but I there's other ancillary issues about affordable housing and uh I guess other impacts that that space may have on the rest as the town as a whole that may not be the best for the town um those sort of the Brad Strokes that were explained to meel anything possible I mean I've heard look rumors of people talking that they may want put a fire station there another EMT I don't know that's things what I was heard you know nothing's been presented to me so these are all unofficial um remarks that I've heard but if the building's going to sit there vacant because they can't rent it you know then that's that's a lot of problems well well the questions or comments are are done so um all right so we you have anything Mr King no you're all good over there in the end there okay okay um so I guess uh they want to make a motion to accept okay Joyce made the motion um Mr Joyce was first Mr Man yes second AC recomendation report are we actually well well You' be making it's you would be recomending to the township recommend that it be deced and right okay Scott I I just have one more question I'm sorry this is for you Andy so Marty you just said if we do move forward this and we approve this tonight and it and it gets us uh redeveloped Anything could happen as far as low-income housing because I think that's what the concern is for people in town our commitment no you just me like I what what could what could happen potentially right if we do this there'll be a planner we go to do a whole Redevelopment plan correct will go through both TC and US public comment and there'll be an overlay Zone most likely as Andy said or some zoning that will deal with whether it's commercial or residential which you'll have because it's required affordable housing afford housing contributions so commercial haven't we fulfilled Our obligation for has nothing to do with round this is just every development contributions to our fund let me just finish my thought one sec sotally separate correct the plan that was brought up at the Town council meeting for the Assisted Living that's been publicly out there it's not been presented to us but that's what's probably going to happen so my question to you as our uh affordable housing guy they mentioned that it's going to be done in stages the concern that I would have is two three years from now when the m Market might change can we restrict that development as it was presented to the Town Council to prevent low uh affordable housing so prevent affordable hous if they switch they say okay so again let's go theoretical the process generally would be area need of Redevelopment designation you then if the committee authorizes the pr development plan as Marty points out goes before both you and the committee sooning all that happens then there' be a Redevelopment agreement and the benefit to any municipality that enters into such an agreement is that it contract obligates the designated redeveloper to construct the project in accordance with the agreement so they would so it's not just you a site there's no agreement here there would actually be a contract so the extent the municipality wants to control the future of this site that this me this is a lawful mechanism under by which you can do that with much more contr Z without that's exactly what I wanted to hear thank you committee controls comes before yes okay okay I guess now we can go to a a vote Yes roll call please recommending the committee that there would be a the priv declared an area in need a Redevelopment under in conformance our is Amed as okay M Mr Martin i v Mr Akerson yes Mr Fagan yes Mr Man yes Mr Emma yes Mr King yes Miss pelis yes Mr Silberman yes okay I think that concludes the meeting right motion motion to close I make a motion second all right meeting is closed thank you everyone yes we're in Su right next to you we moved out to the right on the corner we moved out