BR the chair you're live on hcam TV all right thank you Bob gonna give it just another 30 seconds here so that we are on time you don't have a quorum yet Gary oh gosh yeah we need one more thanks John for spoiling my fun that's my job anybody want to place any bets on who the next planning board member is to join not Vic Vic's out today right I don't know Rob I think might rob nope Elise Elise Elise you are the big winner congratulations oh thanks what did I win planning more beating with a quorum yes yes the opportunity to start um all right let me just one two three four five all right well good good evening everyone um this is Gary trenle chair of the Hopkinson planning board and I hereby call our March 18th meeting to order first not to chapter two of the acts of 20123 this meeting will be conducted via remote meems in accordance with applicable law this means that members of the public body as well as members of the public May access the meeting via virtual means participants May access this meeting through the remote meeting link as posted on the meeting's agenda and through the town's online calendar when you're requested by law or Allowed by the chair persons wishing to provide public comments or otherwise participate in the meeting May do so by raising their hand or otherwise signaling their attempt to speak this meeting will be recorded please take care to mute your microphone unless you have been recognized by the chair we will now confirm attendance of members please respond with presence if you are on the call um Rob Rob is not here Jane present Elise here Matthew present Michael is Michael here Michael is not Vic yes present uh Parker pres all right and Gary of course is here all right well let's go ahead and get started um I think this is actually going to be a relatively quick meeting because uh I anticipate we are going to continue most um most of our hearings if not all of them um so um really quickly the um so we have a couple of administrative items actually just one administrative item um and that would be uh the planning board anr endorsement process I think a nice recommendation from um John on that um the continued public hearing on the zoning bylaws for MBTA communities we'll have a quick discussion but um we're still waiting one more piece of of feedback um that I think might be worth delaying a final vote um the storm water regulations we have a request from concom to for a little bit more time to finish reviewing that um the storm water management plan for Elwood Farms um they've requested a continuance um and then we do have the public hearing for the uh citizens Petition of the zoning map Amendment um so um like I said I think uh the citizens petition will warrant some discussion the other ones I think there's um some rationale to to continue but um I expect we'll get through this pretty quickly um um so let's let's actually start um we'll start with the first public hearing which is the zoning bylaws and zoning map from NBTA communities um John do you want to just give us a um a quick recap of who we're waiting on for review um and then we'll we'll go from there sure uh so we have submitted the proposal to the Eon executive office of Housing and livable Comm communities which is the um descendant for lack of a better word of dhcd dhcd turned into eohc they are the ones that are administering the whole NBTA community's law and implementation process so they are providing a service where they review these proposals on behalf of towns uh in terms of compliance we've also submitted to the Attorney General's office because they're doing a similar review um so we're waiting on both of those to get back to us all right so and and John and I talked about this earlier um and our thought was um that we continue until uh what was it John it was April 22nd 22nd and the rationale behind that was um if they had any feedback or recommendations or other minor modifications uh it would be much cleaner to incorporate those before taking a vote whereas if we took a vote now which we could do if the board so desires um it would be a more complex process to go open it up again um to um make any uh any any remaining changes so my thought on it and you guys tell me if you agree with this um I there's really not much to discuss after the last meeting and certainly we we'll take comments or questions if people have them but my recommendation would be to continue it until April 22nd um which would just give some additional time if there were other comments or recommendations that came back that we could consider um before taking a a vote on it um as a as a board I agree thanks Jane anybody feel otherwise okay um so I think that makes sense um I think I will just open it up and see if people have any other we'll start with the board and see if people have questions or comments um that are that are new or different from what we've talked about previously and then we'll open it up to the public to see if anybody has any any comments so there anybody from the board nope okay don't see any anybody from the public okay feel like we've beat this up pretty good um then uh and that considering this um I will entertain a motion to continue the public hearing for the proposed amendments the zoning bylaws and zoning map for NBTA communities to April 22nd 2024 so moved second all right assuming no further discussion uh Rob how do you vote Rob Benson yes Jame yes Elise yes Matthew yes Michael Yes Vic yes Parker yes and Gary is a yes as well um next up would be the continue public hearing for amendments to the storm water regulations and uh I'm going to recommend we don't discuss this in any more detail now but um John was there a recommendation as to when we should continue this to pom said to or the conservation agents said to just continue it to one more meeting so it would be the next meeting on April 1st April 1 all right so then I will entertain a motion to continue the public hearing um for the oh sorry it just totally threw me off um John I'm laughing because the the agenda versus the first page of the memo have the different order and it totally just rattled me um I'll entertain a motion to continue the public hearing for for the proposed amendments to the storm water regulations to April 1st 2024 so moved second assuming no further discussion Rob how do you vote Rob Benson yes Jane Jane Marin yes police yes Matthew yes Michael Yes Vick yes Parker yes G is a yes as well uh the next one uh storm water management permit for Elmwood Farms three Toll Brothers um at the request of the applicant um I will uh entertain a um motion to continue this to April 1st uh with a decision of what was the request Onan April 8th with the decision of April 8th so moved second s me no further discussion Rob how do you vote Rob venson yes Shane Jane Marin yes Elise yes Matthew yes Michael Yes Vic yes Parker yes and Gary as a yes as well uh um okay let's get into the uh citizens petition um I do need to open this hearing so I'll entertain a motion to open the hearing for a Citizens petition um on zoning map Amendment so moved second uh assuming no discussion Rob how do you vote Rob Benson yes Jane Jane Marin yes Lee Yes Matthew yes Michael yes Vic yes Parker yes Gary is a yes as well all right so do we have the someone representing the applicants on the call yeah my name is Neil Bingham I'm Council for uh the there are actually applicants uh Sue castanza who owns one Colonial LLC the owner of one Colonial AV uh and I'm also here on behalf of uh Philip anones uh owner of 81 and 83 Hayden row um in connection with Sue castan's efforts to consider this particular amendment I had the pleasure of speaking to Mr anones who found himself similarly situated to sug ganza which is how we end up before you on a uh a proposal to transfer three properties from the residential res to the business district okay thanks Mr Bingham um do you have a presentation or you like to share how can you edicate us I'd like to do some uh screen sharing if that's okay I could follow that up with uh all of the documents that I'm going to show to you and some photographs okay but the the entirety of the presentation will involve uh some map Geo uh uh uh photographs of the this the area that we're talking about and their current zoning and then some photographs that also show the uses because not only is the zoning in the particular area that we're talking about which is the corner of Grove Hayden row uh and um uh and uh one Colonial uh it uh it it also um uh I'll I'll show you those I'll show that's great uh you can share your screen and um walk us through it I just need I may need some uh someone to authorize me to do that you should be all set now okay just down at the bottom there should be a green button that says share screen there you go very good so I I don't know how familiar anyone is with this particular with these particular properties but they're very can you can you show us on the map interestingly situated here here are the three uh with an overlay of the zoning districts uh you'll you'll see uh uh actually this one has this one has more than three let me well we key we'll keep this one uh if you look at the properties that are outlined in in yellow and then one in green the one in green is 81 Hayden row uh the the next property over is 83 Hayden row and then the final one to the right is one Colonial a uh you'll see that uh in this particular area what we're really trying to do is to promote some uh some uh uniformity in in the area uh particularly with respect to one Colonial which is this property in the rear uh it's a it's a residential property uh that finds itself surrounded by commercial and other kinds of non-residential uses what we're looking at here in this particular photograph is what is known as uh Colonial Avenue and this is the primary and only access that uh exists for one Colonial Colonial is setback in in the in in the background there it's that yellow that yellow house to get to it you have to drive by two businesses on your left on the rightand side we have what I think is going to be a beautiful de development uh at 87 uh 87 uh Hayden uh but right now is uh is is in the process of having that particular building torn down when all is said and done the residence of one Colonial will be the only residential property in in this particular area in an in an area that is being I think properly and well developed uh for its zoned and and intended use which is for you know for a commercial use and all of the property on the right hand side including where that white building is on this particular photograph are the subject of uh uh uh approvals I believe this board has has had this particular property before it uh on on site plan although I'm I haven't followed very very closely that particular development uh in addition to the commercial uses that surround one Colonial uh when you when you take a when you take a look at the other two properties and let me show you a photo of those that's actually that is one colon that is one Colonial a closeup uh a closeup of it okay so this is this is a photograph that I took from uh from Hayden from Hayden row uh and this is 8585 Hayden it's one of the properties that you saw on the left hand side as we were trying to get down one Colonial a to the left you will see Mr Anton's uh home which is located at 81 Hayden row and then the area behind it is an undeveloped lot that is the other the third and final lot that we're dealing with 83 uh you know as you can see as this particular area uh is uh commercial and continues to develop commercially what what Mr anones finds himself looking at and what Sue castanza from one coloni will find themselves looking at is just really the same view a view of a ano appropriate commercial use of the property and it is both of their opinions that uh we would be better served if uh these three particular Lots were added to the business district to allow for the uniformity that I think is is developing quite naturally there as you go down Hayden row past uh past um 83 and 81 the the street does transition nicely residentially but the the next property is a you know a well done and well-maintained dentist's office uh but you know another commercial use that uh Mr antonides finds himself right beside and it just it just even though that that that particular dentist office is zoned residentially uh it is it's in fact has a a commercial use so it seems like a very natural transition to allow each of these three properties uh to transition into the business district um I have just a couple of photos I think everyone probably knows this area but if you this is just me turning around from that photograph down one Colonial and you'll see that what we're looking at across the street even though we're we're looking at a residential Zone there's nothing really residential about it this is these are uh part of the school properties you can see uh I believe that's the Middle School in in the background and uh of course further down just a little bit down the street but you don't have to walk to see this you could just I could have just turned my camera but I did walk a little closer we're we're dealing with uh you know a high school so again even though this is a very large you know residential district can you see my pointer or does that not show up it does okay good so even though we're dealing with a uh you know which is you know res a and resb here there's there are no residential uses here these these are all of the schools the this these are all these are all commercial uses in the business district I outlined one additional property which is 91 Grove Street and that's that's across the street from anones and across the street from 85 Hayden and although that it appears on this particular map that that lot is in a residential Zone in fact it's not that property had been separately zoned to be part of this business district that was forming and that we're looking to expand uh uh with respect with respect to the request that we have here um and then further down the way there there are a couple of other non-res residential non-residential uses School uh school administrative Town administrative uses right right in this particular area again uh not necessarily uh zoned res not zoned business but in fact non-residential uses in in the resident in the residential area so really for for for these reasons uh we request that the uh that that the board uh uh uh consider consider our proposed amendment uh and support it and if you had any questions for me I believe Mr anones is on the line I know that Sue is we'd be happy to take on your questions all right thanks Mr Bingham um so for the planning board and for the public um just kind of a a quick process check um I think it's worth noting that this is a Citizens petition that will be going to annual town meeting um so this is not a function of the planning board deciding if this zoning changes is allowed um it it is is is really just uh uh an opportunity for us to either uh recommend for it or recommend against it um either way it'll go before town meeting and um John just confirmed it takes a a two-thirds majority at town meeting uh in order for that zoning change to occur um so so maybe uh at this point um we'll go ahead and uh Mr Bingham you could probably stop sharing your screen um I have uh before we go to to question and discussion with the board and the public um I'm curious if members of the planning board feel like they know the property well enough um to have this discussion or if we should potentially consider a s sidewalk and you know reality is we were just on uh I think it's uh 85 at a s sidewalk a couple of months ago and I those of us that were there all saw the house so um sorry I'm getting my addresses I might be getting my address 87 87 thank you um but uh in particular the the property behind uh 81 and 81 itself um you know we didn't look at those but um for members of the planning board um is this something that you feel like we should schedule a sidewalk and go take a look and and kind of better assess it or is this something that people feel like they know well enough just from prior s sidewalk and from driving by um to have this discussion I'm comfortable not doing a site walk I feel pretty familiar turn meet me too Gary through the chair okay me too I mean we've been there for the other property site work and we have seen that pretty much we brought our kids to the school yep okay all right just wanted to make sure that um and and uh so what we'll do is we'll open it up for questions and comments from the board um we will then as it's a public hearing we'll open it up for uh questions or comments from the public um and then if we um if we you know we have two options at that point we could if we felt like we needed a little bit more time to process and digest we could continue this um or we could go ahead and uh and take a vote as to whether or not this is something we want to recommend um so at this point I will uh I'm looking at my fellow planning board members and um I see Matthew is raising his hand thank you Matthew um go ahead the mic is yours thanks um I guess my first question is just is does Zach play any role in uh reviewing proposing any recommendations or at this or is it just so in this situation because this is by citizens petition um they are not obligated to go before Zach um if you recall last year at town meeting there were a couple of uh proposed zoning changes um that came to us by citizens petition um it's worth noting that that is a this is a recognized an appropriate process um so I people shouldn't feel like this is somehow trying to um you know I mean I think that that the you know we we recognize that there are sometimes circumstances where there may not be time or there's other considerations that that maybe it doesn't go through Zach um but in this situation it is not required to go through Zach did you have a follow on question m Matthew not this time maybe later okay all right let me see who's next uh sorry I got to change screens uh Vic CH uh just a quick one so when we discussing this is this like all the three lots to go or we can still have a discussion that one lot can be converted as zoning and the other cannot it can the discussion lead to that or it's just that either all three yes or all three no that's a great question my understanding is that the citizens petition is for all three so um uh and I'm looking at John to correct me if I'm wrong but um if they wanted to only consider one or two of the properties then they would need to uh resubmit some other way but John I'll defer to you on that yeah through the chair so this is since it's a Citizens petition I mean the planning board can like recommend to the applicant to take one out but this is going to go before town meeting as is unless they change it so I think the recommendation should be for what's proposed did you have a follow on question pick uh I have but I'll just come back let me okay I I will say in general um especially with an eight person board we're better off if we try to kind of loop lump all of our questions together um as opposed to going around multiple rounds um but I I'll give you time on this one but in general my my preference would be that that people go through their questions and then and then we move on um Michael yeah just one quick one um so what's the difference um I guess for the zoning dimensions for um a business owned property versus a residential a I guess I'd Beed John if that one yeah I'm G to look to John on that because I know that he can find that answer faster than I can I was looking on my phone I couldn't find it quick actually um actually I'm gonna give John a minute to look that up and if you're okay to Parker sorry Jane had her hand ra too let me um we'll go with Parker Parker first through the chair could you Michael could you reset your question again I just broke up for a second on my side what what were you asking I was curious like um you know with the setbacks and like the building size that are permitted for a business Zone uh lot versus residential a oh set okay set uh I I was curious has the petitioner generated plans or how are they envisioning use of the property and could you possibly explain that for us today okay Mr Bingham do you want to comment on that yes so the the petitioner does not has not developed any particular plans uh for the use of the property uh but they uh they uh see that uh any successful future development of the property uh would be better served if the if uh it was in a business Zone and was consistent with the other kinds of development that is going on around it but uh no particular plans right now if Mr anon's had particular plans I'm not aware of them he I believe he may be on he could say something sureet you want to just introduce yourself and give us your address I think we know what it is Antonis I own the house at 81 Hayden row and the buildable residen lot 83 Hayden row which is sandwiched in between the three properties that are business on the right of me and the dentist on the left of me and the tax place on across the street for me that was once a gas station uh basically I don't have plans right now to develop my land what I do know is I can't build a residential house in the middle of a lot that'll have a view of a dentist parking lot a septic company a a a three Bay truck garage another Septic company and and a tax place across the street from me so I'm getting surrounded by business and I want the oblig I want the options to be able to develop my land and not be stuck with residential property because it's basically making my residential property worthless I can't build the $1.2 million hopkington home I'm Builder and I can't I can't build a home back there because no one's going to buy it so if I'm Zone business I plan to live in my house a little longer for sure and I would like to be able to have the option to develop this land in a way that serves the town it's no no doubt that the town needs Better Business land with more parking on it and at least the two acres I have would be able to provide that had help answer your questions any other questions for me any other questions for Phil could could I just confirm uh through the chair you Mr anones you own the the tax place across the street and NOP no no I own 81 Hayden row and 83 Hayden row 81 Hayden row is a house with barn attached to it an 83 Hayden row is an acre and a half legal residential lot that's sandwiched in between who owns one Colonial castanza through one uh through one Colonial LLC owns one Colonial are you Mr Bingham are are you representing her in this for the citizens petition or I'm representing her and she's here as well yep that's me hi and so the property to the north 77 is the dentist office and then one property north of that what is that property do you know on the other side of the dentist yes closer to the center of town it's a two family yeah okay and then there's an apartment house and looking at the zoning Maps zero Colonial it looks like it's listed as an un unknown owner correct is it is that really unknown yep I believe that they I believe that there was a tax taking by the town of hopkington that hasn't been followed through with a foreclosure sale uh but the owner of that property is unknown I think to the town and uh to us and I know may have been important to someone Generations ago and uh and and has been lost in time is my guess and so then like right now on our I'm looking at our Hopkinson GIS maps which may not be the most 100% accurate but 85 Hayden row and then it's listed as 85 rear which is I think there's an 85 front and an 85 rear 85 front is JC Pomer septic yep and 85 rear is uh Joseph Irvine Jr and so that property 85 rear spans two zoning districts today uh no I don't believe so anymore because the back piece of it that used to go down at the bottom was purchased by 887 Hayden row there do you want to show your your map again that you showed previously that has the the properties outline not this one but I think it was there was one that had the gold outline on it yep the gold outline yeah let me see here here we go so the yeah u223 uh right to the right of that is the continuation of u22 330 so just below u22 34 zero zero Colonial right keep going over like right below that that darker yellow is part of 85 rear and that's still [Music] zoned so so that's the P Su that you're saying was was conveyed is that right yeah I believe that was conveyed to uh 87 so the own so the owner but conveying it to 87 doesn't mean the zoning change but as far as 85 rear being a multizone uh lot uh it is no longer it it is no longer that is now that is now although the the zoning map's not up to date as to the as to the lot that's now part of what was 87 I think you say you toward the the 87 lot that's now part of 87 okay all right irregardless the the biggest thing with 87 and this land here is for the property owners in East viiew the residential homeowners the biggest concern and I I think this some on the call is obviously uh water flows downhill and increasing the amount of commercial businesses there's concern of water flowing downhill and and with unknown uses like obviously if it's developed in the future it would have to go through the planning board and there' be site plan review and uh stormw water mitigation but that's the biggest concern uh so just to kind of voice what people are probably going to say after me is um they're residents are going to be concerned about that uh not that you are expected to have an answer or should at this point in time but that's what people probably want to no the only answer that I would have is that there hang on sorry sorry Neil I just want to make sure that that discussions going through the chair um oh sorry so if if um um sorry I just want to make sure we're not having too much back and forth comment on on Rob's comment yeah my only my only thought here is that when if when Sue ultimately develops this property uh that her neighbors have the right to complain if as a result of that development water is running onto their property so uh she would certainly be going through the approval process and uh should be expected to uh you know to implement mitigation Pro uh procedures that prevent that kind of thing that from happening and to to have to deal with it if if if that they fail to do that so processes are in place uh to deal with those kinds of concerns and and we would want to listen to them if they came in um I want to go back to Michael's question um and I I was while we were talking I was looking at the differences between residential a and uh business district but U and it's it's not an easy side by-side comparison um to Gary yes I guess the thing that I was concerned about was the max height in the business thing it say of 35 ft Max height 30 yeah it's not exceptionally tall so but the setback is different setb back's different yep um John was there anything else any other significant differences that stood out to you as you were looking at those um I was just going to share the appendix a the um table build that has everything together oh that's right I forgot about the new appendix that I don't even think that's in the version that I have printed out in front of me um Mr Bingham if you want to stop sharing and then John might be AOL that but okay so we're looking at residential a and business we have a pretty big difference in Max lot coverage uh we have a difference in minimum lot Frontage minimum Frontage depth minimum setback sidey yard is the same rear Yar is different storage sheds doesn't apply slightly lower height I think this is a good point of comparison thanks John Michael did you have a a follow-up question based on this no no yeah this is kind of what I parsed out just by looking at it real quick while others were asking questions and then um in the bylaws too there's some things that are used by right versus um things that would have to be permitted for used to so that's another distinction for the business district too that I think yeah that's a good point so permitted uses uh following land use and building uses shall be permitted in B District uh any uses not so permitted are excluded unless otherwise permitted by law a bed and breakfast establishments and ends with a maximum of 12 guest rooms B retail stores and Retail service shops C business or professional Offices Medical Offices and Banks D Municipal uses e funeral homes and mortuaries F restaurants G mixed use buildings comprised of retail space on the first floor an office space or residential dwelling units on the second and third floors residential dwelling unit shall have a dedicated on-site parking spaces uh H accessory units uses excuse me and then uses Allowed by special permit um would be gasoline service station and automotive repair garages Opera in compliance with all federal state and Municipal regulatory requirements so on and so forth uh single and multif family residences and building uses for dwelling purposes provided however that all Resident uses shall comply with the dimensional requirements contained in article two live commercial entertainment uh Car Wash facilities theater halls and clubs um and then the following uses shall be in B District upon the granting of a special permit by the planning board uh sorry those previous ones were granting of special permit by the board of appeals um and then the following uses shall be allowed in a b District upon granting of a special permit by the planning board that would be uh drivein driveth through or drive up uses excluding the dispensing of food or drink provided however that an adequate dedicated area for at least four vehicles to que shall be provided and notification of the public hearing for such such special apartment shall be mailed to the owners of all properties within a th000 feet of the premises um off street parking facility um and three uh registered uh marijuana dispensary so thank you Michael appreciate you asking that question yeah than much um Parker the chair I was curious to the petitioner how will this development or do you have any rather plans what is your timeline to developing the property once it's resed uh so you have any plans for development and then have you explored any alternative uses for the property that would be compatible with its current zoning Mr Bingham do you want to answer that or you want to defer to the property owners uh I'll I'll defer to the property owners to start Sue do you want to start uh hi Neil um currently uh I have a tenant that's in the small house right there um but I don't have any other uh plans for it right now um it's been a problem just because there's a lot of activity and access going on um so I mean I own JC Pomer septic up front so I would like to just have area to expand that's all thanks Susan yeah I'm just curious what would be your timeline if the rezone was approved or do you have any timeline for the property I I don't have any specific timeline um you know we would we would just use it for extra parking at this point I would think um we're we're kind of you know we're we've got space issues up here right now uh just because of all the construction going on so so so I do feel like I should add here too that we should be careful about considering things like different potential uses um because the zoning change um to the prior discussion um gives certain rights U to that land and we are not in a position to you know even if you know it could be uh we're going to put in a taco shop with outdoor park and seating and everyone's going to love it well um right we don't have a specific not binding in any way so I just want to make sure people are clear that that um that any of those uses could be considered um on that property if the zoning were changed right we don't have a specific right now I have a tenant in the little house but I don't have anything specific for and then as Mr Anon said very well uh the idea of you know developing residentially in that particular area is really a challenge uh simply because uh there aren't many who would want to uh purchase a very expensive new home on on that particular lot only to have to look around to see all of these business uses uh that are on the property y okay just wanted to add really quickly I've been here for 22 years and even living in my house the dentist parking lot is Tri in size even though it's special use it's never going to be anything but a dentist the future it's got cement floors in the building and the the approvals by the town regardless of my objections were you know that their their parking lot is paved right to my property line and so as I've lived here I've been encroached upon by business I I I got a letter that just said all of a sudden oh we just decided to make the gas station across the street which was use business zoned so now I I know that I will look at a a tax place in an electric shop across the street forever and so as I looked at developing my land and talking with the building department the only choice I have is to build a single family home on an acre and a half lot in hopkington and I I can't build something that's going to make any money that someone's going to want to live in so I'm I'm kind of stuck and so I'd have to explore all all sorts of special use or just get Zone business and know that I can look at this thing as right now why would I even entertain the idea of doing anything business here when I can't yeah thanks Phil you're welcome um so so I'll just offer up my quick comments here um and then we'll go ahead and open it up to the public um and and first and foremost I I will say that I am um somewhat sympathetic in particular to one Colonial um just because um with a lot of work and Redevelopment back there with a single single point of access um definitely see how um that property is is uh is is challenging for residential um but I'd also say that I'm very cautious on these um because and and as I said before this is going to go to Talent meeting anyways um but I am just inherently cautious that they're on on a citizen's petition and potentially endorsing a citizen's petition um unless there are extenda circumstances that that warrant um you know particular timeliness um and so so for me uh this is just me as an individual I'm a little I I I I guess I'm not quite convinced of all three Parcels uh going through via citizens petition um and I I you know I can't necessarily argue with some of the comments that have been made but um as as a lump sum um I'm not I'm not quite quite there um and uh you know I just uh to some of the points made previously I think um as as representatives of the Town um we should be thinking of the 18,000 residents um in what's best for the town and and and maybe that is a business use but if that is a business use then I I think there there are other avenues to to pursue this and consider it so that's just just my opinion um but um you know I I think it's it's uh I just wanted to to share that with the group so um we'll open it up to the public now and um I see Nick has very patiently had his hand raised um Nick if you can just uh start with your name and address and then sure uh Nick um Nick B is live at 22 East View and I mean I I I I'm I'm I'm sort of a realist I understand everything that's going on but and obviously this is nothing personal sorry I got to put my glasses back on otherwise I can't see anybody um um but the the the the land that's literally right behind me I believe is going to be is one of those Parcels of land there I can't I don't know use something I can't remember the parcel name but it's it's wooded now it's very it's very very very wet also um even today I just I just looked out my back my second so I have a two-story um house I look out my window I look down and I can see there's tons of standing water back there so it hasn't rain and that not that little bit of rain from yesterday did not cause all the standing water so the last time rained significantly that water's been sitting there since then so there's like I can't remember the gentleman's name that mentioned the water issues but there will be tremendous water issues we already get tremendous water issues and since all this construction that's been going on up there it's been out this one side of my yard that never had any runoff is having considerable amount of runoff now and it just it's ripping it's it's tearing up my driveway and all sorts of stuff and it's not just me I mean there's other my all the people along that are butt this land behind behind us have the same issues I mean two houses down I mean they've been they've had the fire department there pumping water out of their house so there's major major water issues the other thing the other um comment I want to make is the the attorney did miss misspeak when he said that there is only commercial um properties that AB but this property obviously there isn't my house and others AB but this property and we're zoned residential so it's not all commercial there is residential people that do live in this area and like um the other gentleman Mrs Mr uh that's Phil I can't remember I can't remember your last name Phil but um putting a parking lot back there like he mentioned would be very very bad for run off since there is no absorption from that and that would be you know even worse and having a parking lot sitting behind my looking out my my windows here looking at a parking lot is not what uh I believe the citizens of hopking kid would want plus it's too far away from the center of town I mean that parking lot there there's no one from the center of town that's going to use that parking lot right um other than that I would think it's just I I understand it's it's sort of a weird configuration of lots back there it's like it's like three of them that are very oddly shaped but I I just don't it's just not the place plus the the other it's just not the place for a business with families that live right AB budding this land it's not there there be no no buffer at all and no no fault of su a sue it all but the business that that's there now I mean it's not you know I mean as Phil mentioned it's a it's a septic company so I mean I look out my window now and I see excavators back hos piping and that's sitting on residential and that's sitting on a residentially zoned land now which I you know I don't believe it should be sitting there I mean I don't think that sort of business equipment sitting on at a residential e owned uh piece of land so there there's a whole bunch of little Flags there the other thing I just want to say is just blindly giving switching the zoning to business without any plans or anything just seems a little bit you know all right just make it business and then you know five years from now we're going to put in you don't even know what's going to be sitting there so it's without any foresight of what's going to be happening or coming I think it's just a little putting the cart before the horse got it so so Nick I I do feel obligated to just say a couple of things and I appreciate all your concerns and um you know having properties around me uh developed I I I feel for that um but just two quick things um number one from the zoning perspective um one of the reasons that we deal with zoning the way we do is to be consistent and and fair and all know that that that uh what we try to avoid or what we have to avoid is subjectivity um and so therefore we have zoning standards that uh allow certain uses by right that allow certain uses by special per oh yeah and that's that's very intentional on on the part of of of any uh zoning bylaws um and then the second thing I I just want to point out and and the the water one is certainly um you know we talked a lot about it on the abiding property there um yeah you know since they haven't finished what they're doing sorry sorry we're not gonna have a discussion sorry so um I I realize it's painful but I I would also just say that um there's this has been an unusual year um I I can tell you that that my Su pump has been running it's never run this time of year uh and I I don't know if it's related or not but I just want to be cautious that that um you know there's a lot of people in town that have had water in places they've never they've never had before but that being said um you know if there's a commercial use if this zoning were to go through and there was a commercial use um then they still have to go through through the same permitting process and and there there are still some additional controls um so it's not like it's just going to you know build what they want and and and carry on there's still some additional approvals to go through so I just wanted to clarify that but I I totally understand your concerns um and I appreciate you're bringing them up I just um wanted to clarify a few things I think just one just one point I think just the biggest out of all all of I said I think the biggest thing is the open-endedness not knowing what I there's no there's no knowing what's going to happen yeah okay thank you um uh Miss iron yeah hi it's Rondon Steve Petroski from two Hazel Road um we AB but the the Landon question um but we certainly do Susan and we look over it we have similar concerns to to Nick about water flow but also all of the concerns that Phil brought up about having to look at something undesirable and unable to a a residential area we feel like this could very significantly impact the value of our property going forward we also feel like we don't really want to look at what's there now to be honest it's a bit of an eyesore um um so yeah we we have concerns and we'd like to know what what kind of mitigation would be put in place um do you want to add anything Steve no I think when we purchase a property we purchased the property knowing that this was a residential zoning and behind us so we expected maybe a house or you know to be built on there two houses three whatever it's a large lot um and here we are now we're looking at you know uh complete Redevelopment and obviously the applicant's looking for uh you know changing the zoning um and again um as Nick from said even with the current construction that's been started there it's been nothing but a huge mass my septic meing field is completely underwater every rainstorm doesn't matter how big or how little it is and eventually it will fail because it's getting too much water coming into it um so that's a concern that we have and again you know our our property value I would say that even right now if somebody came and we tried to sell that property and just the way things are going right now I'm willing to bet that we've lost a significant amount on our value it it went from being residential behind us wooded with a buffer zone between us and the commercial Zone to now there's no no trees left everything's been taken down completely just the trees along our wall that we have thank you um are there any other questions or comments from the public bill Phil like can't pronounce your last name either so I apologize but I know you was Phil it's Antonis um I just I just wanted to mention the following one I never planned on Paving a parking lot in my yard uh I was only mentioning that I have enough land that I could actually put a business on it with enough parking that someone could actually go to the business without clogging up the streets um secondly um I just wanted to say that for for me once you z uh 81 uh once you own one Colonial business I am now you know 95% surrounded by business there's always a place in town where a business Zone meets uh a residential Zone it happens in every single town and I knew when I bought this place that I was next door to a business what I didn't know is how these businesses were going to grow and so at this point um when you say well I don't really know about you know you have to make a decision about a business Zone and then we go about developing that business Zone to serve the community and to say that this area is not business it is and it has you know the HCA has a huge amount of people that go to it every day we've got select and now we've got a new office building going in we've got a septic company basically my house changes color with the traffic light on the corner and it is virtually impossible to get in out of it during the school time that the buses are coming in it is in a perfect business Zone if you were to make it a business Zone and the only reason why I want to go there is I want to have some kind of future to for developing the the my my land in my home I can't get full hopkington value out of my home because it is smack in the middle of a business district that's it that's all I wanted to say thanks Phil um an has her hand raised hi um just making hi um and if you can start with your your full name and address for the yes it's an matina 40 East View Road um I just want to speak to the water issue that Nick was talking about earlier um and the irons we're referring to as well I don't know if folks are aware of it but this whole development has um a lot of drainage issues um and there are these water pipes that are underneath people's property um behind our house is a is an empty 3 acre lot an undeveloped 3 acre lot again it's under probably right now about two feet of water um but there's also a drain pipe that goes into it um we are lucky we're at the very bottom of Rock road because that drain pipe is in our yard we don't get a wet basement but many of our neighbors do and they have some of them actually have pipes e go out to the street as they're trying you know trying to mitigate their water damage um I know a new neighbor recently said there was about six inches of water in his basement and he was shocked so there is water all over the place here um and again when they developed it as a residential area they did take steps to ensure you know make it as best as they could um but I think that it is a concern going forward and my other concern with all of this is exactly what Nick said is the cart before the horse this seems like we're giving if I were to put it in another metaphor I would say or analogy I would say this is like giving someone a blank check and hoping that what they come up with is the same amount we have in our bank account I I would much rather hear a specific plan than just kind of say go ahead and change change the zoning yeah that's that's my personal opinion on all of this thanks Ann I I do appreciate that and like I said before though that the way our zoning works is it doesn't require a specific plan and that's intentional um but again also say this as well um you know we as a planning board certainly need to be looking at the the broader interests of the the community um and what that means is that we don't necessarily our objective is not to develop more land or to increase value of land just like our objective is is not necessarily to um you know um only consider the the neighbors behind so I I'm just going to encourage everybody to again continue to think about this through the lens of of collectively what's best for the community and um and certainly appreciate your concerns and um realize that that water is an issue for for a lot of people right now thank you Ted hi um Ted Barker hook 75 Grove Street uh I'm also on the zoning advisory committee uh and I thought I'd check in to give just a little bit of historical context especially to the request from 81 Hayden row um 81 Hayden row was brought to Zach seven eight years ago whenever I started on Zach um asking to be reone business with a lot of the same understandable concerns um Zach recommended against the rezoning then um and one of the things we looked at is while if you look south from Phil's house admittedly it looks business if you look North from Phil's house even with the dentist off office the building itself is still the shape of an A-frame house and very clearly it becomes a neighborhood going in that direction and at the time our discussion centered very much on Zone creep and if this house is Zone business then the dentist office clearly would have a case to Zone business then the next house which again is a house though it's a apartment owner someone who doesn't live on the residence uh might say the same I I can make more for my house if we reone there was a very real concern of business Zone creep heading north towards town um and it was on that basis largely if my memory is accurate why Zach did not recommend the rezoning of 81 Hayden row at the time so I just wanted to chip in with a little bit of history on the property thanks Ted hopeful context um are there other questions or comments from either the public uh or from the the planning board at this time Matthew thanks um and I I also want to thank Ted for the context um I think that addresses a lot of my concerns that I was looking for for questions on and my personal feeling also is that as a bulk I'd much rather have Zach uh take a look at it rather than uh us just making a decision Pro or con here even though I realize that's what we have to do as part of the uh the process for the citizens petition all right thanks Matthew any other questions or comments uh either either public or planning board uh Vic um y I just want to say that there's a lot of background and uh looks like a lot of water issues which have been raised with the public which is also concerning so one thing is that I understand that we don't need a planning but that needs to be also taken into consideration along with that that's a school zone with lot of traffic lot of kits going around and converting everything into that that would add more to the traffic as well as uh uh the surrounding areas uh with business and a lot of other it's it I don't think it's feasible is what I'm looking at it but I want to hear a little more about from the petitioner what exactly they're trying to make it out of it I mean if they can come back with the planning in the next meeting it would be good is what I was looking in case if they can yeah so so Vic and I I'm going to goad and take that one because I again we we we can't be making uh recommendations of zoning based on a specific use um it wouldn't be binding anyways we need to be assessing whether we think this zoning proposed zoning change makes sense um regardless of what the use might be and um again that's really important because um you know certainly the we we want to make sure that we're applying the same standards to to everyone and and that's what our our zoning uh enables um Mr Bingham did you have a comment yeah I do have I do have a comment I I just want to make it very clear to everyone that it is very very difficult for to ask anyone to bring a plan here because they don't know what the zone is going to be right now it's residential uh and the idea of developing and and expending funds on preparing a plan uh is really putting the cart before the horse um I want to say a couple of other things about the water issue you know Sue castanza owns uh uh 85 Hayden row up up at the front she also lives on East View Road she ha she has all of the concerns that many were hearing from here have about water she doesn't want water going uh into her property she doesn't want water going into into yours but nothing that's going on as of today that maybe people are seeing when they look out their window has anything to do with this particular with these particular applicants nothing she hasn't cut down any trees she hasn't done one thing on her on her property that may be causing whatever water issues you're talking about and one of the things that may uh lend positively toward the kinds of issues that we're that you're talking about with respect to water is actually the develop development of the property which would give if if the water is in fact coming from one Colonial or from any other property uh there is nothing better than having an eye on on on that kind of things see how the water flows go and and then they would be dealt with at the planning board level but doing nothing is not going to solve those those water problems but more importantly uh suc castanza and uh Mr Anon are not have not done one thing to contribute to the water issues that that that you're that you're dealing with um and you know to the extent that anyone who has made a comment about looking out their rear window and seeing trees cleared not one tree cleared by by these particular applicants you're talking about a different uh a different development situation uh and then there was one comment with respect to uh something that I may have said about a Butters what I was trying to get across at uh when I when I said what I said was I was showing the particular neighborhood photos of the particular neighborhood down one Colonial La uh which is the only access uh I mean down Colonial la which is the only access to one Colonial a to show what it is like for the for the residential resident of one Colonial AB to have to go up and down every single day and particularly as that develops even more commercially they that one Colonial is a single residential property that is on an island by itself despite the fact that it may AB but in the rear to another completely different neighborhood that one Colonial doesn't have access through if one Colonial had access through that neighborhood uh I I understand but uh that was the point that I was trying to make I wasn't trying to suggest that there aren't residential Neighbors in the rear there there are okay thanks so I I just want to set one caveat here hang on fill one minute but I I I don't want to get into it back and forth about what's causing the water issues um because the reality is is that none of us know um so um you know what we do know is that there's more water this year than there has been in years past so um I I just want to make that statement UPF front um and uh I I would challenge the applicants Council that to say that that that what's happening now has no impact on it um and just in the same way that I would challenge the res that there are other factors at play beyond the development so um Phil did you have a quick comment um I I do because because I I feel it's a little disingenuous um what Ted had um put forward as a as a citizen of hopkington this is how seven years ago I tried to get Zone business along with the dentist next door and it was denied by the zoning board and we chose not to bring it to the um the to vote at the town meeting meeting um but but here's what's happened since then um since then the dentist parking lot has tripled in size it's been allowed as special use how does that affect me I have less trees around my home I have more business around my home regardless of whether you call it special use or not in addition directly across the street from me what was Zone special use is now zoned business and can be whatever it's going to be with whatever setback on a minimum set of land leaving me when you talk about the view from my home with about a 20 degree view of residential land and everything else is business so please please take that into consideration because it is not what Ted is describing all right thanks Phil thanks um an and you're muted uh and you're still muted um you want to unmute if not then maybe we can go to Nick and then we'll go back to you Ann afterwards yeah I just wanted to clarify just a couple things that uh Neil mentioned um so they did clear trees down there uh they were they were it's around literally right behind my house so that that land was is around that little yellow house um and they raised they raised the water issues and I know you don't want to get into water issues but because of gravity they raised the land back there so when they put more fill right behind right behind that little yellow house the water comes down more I mean that's just I don't care how much rain we got last year this year and every year there's there's more it's higher up they've raised up the hills even a little higher now behind my house so I think you might have misspoke but they definitely cut down trees that was not part of 87 it came all the way over to Phil's house so so again we're not getting get into he said she said no no no I just wanted to clarify that that that that that property did not do anything and they they definitely did thank you uh an um I just want to it's not a where the water's coming from comment it's about this process this is the process for hearing from the neighbors and I think it's really important um I I'm not trying to make this into a neighbor against neighbor kind of argument here I just want to be able to uh have you know point out some of the issues that exist in the neighborhood and and frankly uh with all due respect Mr Bingham I do feel as if um you you're pointing out that this isn't Sue or Phil's problem you you're right um absolutely and they're our neighbors and we don't you know I'm not I don't hold anything against them but we need we were given the opportunity to join the conversation tonight and that's what we're doing and we're asking our elected representative our planning board to think about these things and I'm sure if it goes to town meeting when it goes to town meeting there's going to be even more discussion about it so about all of these things so I think it might um you know rather than saying this isn't my client's problem you should recognize that we all live together in the community and I think that uh Gary has said that numerous times tonight but um I just wanted to point that out thanks an um and uh well said I just would clarify one thing um this is going to town meeting so um all we're really doing here is is just voting um if this is something that we would want to recommend right and it's an open hearing right it's an open public hearing town meeting yes this is an open public hearing and that's that's why we're we're happy to have your input and um town meeting will be uh open as well and uh certainly um I would be willing to bet that regardless of how the planning board votes on this tonight um a lot of this discussion will be had at annual town meeting as well so um I I think that uh I think we're probably ready to take a vote um does anybody from the planning board have anything else to add before we do um I don't see any um John one question for you um you kindly put together two different uh or two different recommended motions in the document um and my instinct here is that we move forward with the motion that is written um in the affirmative so the motion to approve and then um people would vote whether or not they support that is that I feel like that's usually the way we do it but you threw me off a little by also throwing an alternative in there that was to disapprove and I'm curious if you can tell me what the if there's any considerations that we should have as to which motion we take a vote on no I think you've got it right the disapprove was just to give the board another option in case the sentiment on the board was pretty clear um but I think at this point the uh voting in the positive it makes sense okay so um I hope everyone understands that what I'm what I'm going to do is uh I will entertain uh a motion that the planning board recommend the town meeting approve the citizens petition to reone the properties located at one Colonial AV 81 Hayden row and 83 Hayden Row from residence a to business B article as written in the 2024 annual town meeting warrant so moved second okay um so again just as a reminder if you are supportive of the planning board recommending this then you would vote yay yes if you are uh against the planning board recommending this for approval then you would vote no so everyone clear on that uh any further discussion on the uh motion that's on the table all right seeing none um Rob how do you vote Rob Benson yes Jane yes Elise yes Matthew no Michael no Vic no Parker no and Gary is a no as well so the motion does not carry um but again this will still be before us at town meeting it will just have um uh as as part of that it will have that the planning board did not recommend um endorsement of this so um appreciate everyone's discussion on this certainly Lively um like I said I I know that that's going to continue um and uh yeah we'll uh we'll see you all at town meeting um I guess I need to close that hearing as well so um I will entertain a motion to close the hearing for um the uh citizens petition so moved Rob second right ass no further discussion Rob how do you vote Rob venson yes Dane Dane Marin yes Elise yes Matthew yes Michael Yes pick yes Parker yes Gary is a yes as well um all right the last thing before us tonight is the planning board anr endorsement process um John do you want to quickly summarize what is before us here sure so uh as many of you know we are constantly nagging you to come to town hall to sign anrs um generally when meetings were held in person the anrs would be signed right then and there uh but now that we're having remote meetings obviously that that can't happen so there is a provision in M uh General law that allows for um people or a person to sign on behalf of the planing board we just need to follow a process of filing a letter to the registry of deeds uh and then that person or people can sign on behalf of the planning board and so that would basically say you guys don't have to make your way down to town hall every so often to sign and we don't have to nag you as much um the the issue is and it's not really an issue is that this has to be done uh with every new planning board so we could do it now um and then it's good until the election and then we'd have to do it again but I think starting in May after the election we would just if this is something the board would do we we' bring it up as one of the first items along with your organization have that have the board vote on that letter we send it to the registry and then we're good for a year so happy to answer any questions uh if anybody needs any clarification otherwise the example letters are in the folder if you had a chance to look at them so there's two two letters that we included the one to the registry and then the town clerk recommended we include uh his certification of planning board action that goes along with that letter so that the registry knows that the town is fully aware of it and he can certify officially that the board voted one way or another all right thanks John and I appreciate you working through a process on this um I feel somewhat obligated to just say that part of our responsibility as planning board members is to sign things um and uh I I agree with the town hall staff that it does get frustrating to have to chase people we all live in town none of us live that far away um many of us travel but there's also um off there's extended hours and there's there's other considerations that enable this um that being said um an anrs are probably not the most critical thing that we're reviewing um and the fact that we need five signatures certainly complicates things so I I'm appreciative and supportive of this um but uh so you know my recommendation is is would be to move forward but I'm I'm curious if if other folks have um questions or or comments U for either John or for me the chair yeah I didn't raise my hand go first Parker can go first than I I think this is a great move I mean as it was said previously we would potentially be in person and unless we move back in person in the future and given we have to reauthorize this with every board this isn't a binding uh you know mechanism for the future also from like a SLA perspective I think it's just more for La better term customer obsessed you for our uh you know different uh you know folks coming before the board and seeking an anr so I'm for this uh when John brought this up with email I sent this and T this to Gary because I think at the end of the day it's like the right move you know for us to just be good stewards of now the the board's time to also folks that are relying us so I think it's a good idea all right Matthew uh yes second a lot of what Parker said um I don't see it as disenfranchising us or our statement uh any we still have to vote on these um one question on that was uh does the design John or whoever um just sign it as himself in that case as the design or does he name the board members that voted or board members John so um I'm gonna confirm this with the town clerk but I think and we had talked about it I just don't remember where we landed uh me and the town clerk this past week I think I would just sign up my name and then potentially a statement saying on behalf of the planning border or some something to that extent sounds good thank you all right any further questions um if not then I will entertain a motion that the planning board upon any vote by the board to endorse uh approval not required plans authorized John guch principal planner of the town of hopkington to dors said approval not required plans on behalf of the planning board so move so moved second assuming no further discussion uh Rob how do you vote Rob Benson yes Jane Jane maren yes Elise yes Matthew yes Michael yes pck yes Parker yes and Gary is a yes as well um so thank you John appreciate that um so um as noted previously we don't yet have minutes to review from the last meeting so um to continue not to just want to provide clarification they were accidentally put into last week's folder so I've moved them into this week's folder if you want to take a look at them I've also put them into or sorry last meeting's folder I've also put them into next meeting's folder so that they're there for you to review they were done just misplaced thank you John and thank you Lori no worries um we can review them next time um and we've done we continued all the hearings we needed to continue we voted on those uh I'm just looking quickly at the agenda I think we're all set right okay uh and then I will entertain a motion to adjourn so moved Rob second all right assuming further discussion uh Rob how do you vote Rob yes Jane Jan Marin yes leise yes Matthew yes Michael Yes Vic yes Parker yes and Gary is a yes as well so thanks everyone good discussion uh and uh have a good night thank you you too bye