##VIDEO ID:KIrEcIma5QU## e hi Joe did you have a question Joe do you have a question not yet I just turned in okay you got your hand raised so I was oh how do I do that I'm sorry that's all right it's good that it works oh yeah well I'm glad it does too all right uh I will lower your hand oh thank you but there's uh there should be a button right in the middle for everyone who's listening on Zoom there should be a button right in the middle of your screen uh that says raise hand so if you raise your hand um that lets the board know that you would like to make a question or a comment well I just see two pictures Jane Moran and Matthew Rona yep okay so far yeah although so this is because we have to do um a a different format on Zoom to allow for more than 100 100 potential participants we have to do a webinar format I'll just I'll turn my video on too um we have to do a webinar format and so what that means is that the public has to be in the attendees list and then the board will be in the panelist and so the board will be able to talk and Converse and we we will um allow the public to speak when they raise their hand and then they'll be able to join the the meeting otherwise everyone will just be watching all right so Joe I am going to remove your permission to talk and um put you back so if you're a board member on the call can you just raise your hand so you jump to the top of my list thank you I am inviting you all to be a panelist so please accept e all right looks like we are just missing a lease but everyone else is here all right I'm going to start by uh reading the remote meeting script and we can uh jump into our agenda all right hi everybody uh pursuing to chapter two of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means in accordance with in accordance with applicable law this means that members of the public body as well as members of the public May access this meeting via virtual means participants May access this meeting through the remote meeting link as posted on the meeting agenda and through the town's online calendar when required by law or Allowed by the chair persons wishing to provide public comment or otherwise participate in the meeting May do so by raising their hand or otherwise signaling their intent to speak this meeting will be recorded please take care to mute your microphone unless you have been recognized by the chair we will now confirm attendance of members please respond with present if you're on the call Alise MOSI still no just uh someone tried to let me know if she join you see her join luciao Lopez present great Matthew Ranka present uh Michael King presid Parker H presid Jane Moran present Karen Wills present Vaso pry present and Rob Benson I'm obviously here uh in staff John guch president and Lorie St John president all right great everybody's here uh but at least so tonight's uh meeting agenda is uh to go over the MBTA Community um so we have three kind of proposals that were forwarded to us by the zoning advisory committee so I think um before we get going um I had asked John to ask Our Town Council uh so leading into this meeting basically we had to notify all the abutters of all these properties and um I think the actual owners of the prop properties so I asked John if we could consider any parcel if we wanted to basically take any parcel of any of the three options John what was the out what did the Town Council have to say we didn't get a response about this from Town Council but um we should maybe we should go through the three and see if we even want to go to that route because that would be something maybe for the next meeting okay that's just yeah introducing a a fourth option to three existing options all right all right so um I think it's uh I think the best thing to do is John can you would you be willing to cover like just the overview of what it is again I was thinking if we cover the overview of what MBTA communities is about hopefully five minutes then go into the three just preview the three uh options that were passed to us from the zoning advisory committee and then I start opening it up to uh comment from the board and then the public sure I could just use the presentation I gave to the board a couple meetings ago and just kind of SK the history yeah what was included in the packet that would be great the that part all right so NBTA communities multif family overlay zoning uh skip the history um but this is these are all the communities that are MBTA communities the uh blue is a rapid transit so they have Subway or uh I think express bus might trigger it but it might just be Subway um green is commuter rail and then you have adjacent community and adjacent small town Hopkinton is over here it's an adjacent Community because we are um served by the Southboro train station so regulations are zoning they do not force the units to be constructed uh the three criteria that we have to follow is of a reasonable size so 50 acres um and minimum gross density across the entire District not necessarily for each subdistrict is 15 units per acre and the capacity allowed must be at least 750 units so that's not 750 units have to be constructed it's just that enough land has to be um under this zoning that given the dimensional requirements of the bylaw 750 units would have to be possible uh or possibly possible to be constructed that doesn't sound right but I'm just going to go with it uh this is just overview of what we've done up to this point and this is option one so this is the one that went to annual town meeting and it includes the downtown area the uh preserve and the carbonis and two residential lots adjacent to carbonis there just a zoom in and this is the summary of the model that the state provided us that we plug in all the information and it spits out how we comply with the three criteria so this District would be 58.4 Acres so that would be compliant it would provide for 814 units so that's over the 750 and it would have an average density of 16.7 units per acre so this would comply and this one also uh had gone before the state since it was four town meeting we submitted to the state for their pre-review before town meeting to make sure that it was compliant they said it would be compliant if adopted we did not have time to do that on these other two given that they were not um provided or really thought up uh By Zach until you know a couple months ago so uh we did not have the chance to send those to the state for a pre-adoption review the second option one that Zach came up with recently and Zach is zoning advisory committee for those who don't know not a person name Zach um is the Indian Brook and the downtown expanded area so for the downtown expanded area we added uh this parcel and I believe these two parcels and maybe this parcel up here just to Goose the acerage numbers um for these these districts uh and then Indian Brook Condo Association over here and this is how it would comply given the model that the state handed down so 52.3 Acres a total of 771 unit capacity and 16.7 units per acre over the district and the third option is the Walcott Valley downtown expanded and upper Cedar Street modified District so this would include the Walcott Valley uh condominium parcel that same expanded downtown subdistrict that was used for the um Indian Brook one and a modified upper Cedar Street subdistrict which removes The Preserve but keeps carbonis and the two residential lots and this is how that one would comply of 51.7 Acres so it meets the the uh requirement 762 unit capacity and 19.2 unit per acre so are we required to build do you want me to go through this Rob or just kind of leave it there you're muted Rob I think the first bullet is just important for everybody to hear other than that that's fine yeah are we required to build these units no um we would only be compliant if we just adopted it and never built any of the units uh the state is not requiring us to build the units the law is not requiring us to build the units um so it would just need to have the areas reasoned and we would be compliant all right thanks John so I'd like to take this kind of in a sequential order I think um for people on the board that have been on the board for several years we've been talking about MBTA communities for several years at various meetings and it's not new to some of the people on the call this might be new um something they haven't been spending time on I'm sure so uh I think we just as a board we need to be recognize that that yeah even though we've been talking about it a long time uh the general public probably hasn't so um be accommodating um to try to answer any and all questions that the public has but before we open it up to everybody on the call does anyone the board have any questions or comments it's at this point I don't know if there's questions that persist but comments or anything they'd like to say about it go ahead uh Parker were you first yeah go ahead yeah John I was just hoping if you could be so kind of clarify in what is the definition of upzoning um up zoning in plan world uh would be rezoning a parcel to have a better use potential than current usage okay and is it fair to say that some of the parcels in the proposed plans would be considered up Zone um I mean that can be subjective but if you think about it as being the same zoning as it currently is but allowing for for more uses then yes yeah I just wanted to zero in on that definition up zoning and being able to have more uses for a property I appreciate you clarifying that and I just just to clarify a little bit more the the quantity of the uses is not necessarily upzoning it's the quality and quantity compared to the existing uses if that makes sense Matthew go ahead thanks Rob thanks John for going over the the three Parcels um I just wanted to kind of cover one of the questions that keeps coming up um before we open up to to questions later is that there isn't a lot of unprotected continuous uh land available in town and while the options aren't likely to be developed I just urge us when we go back to deliberating in the town uh to consider which areas would make sense if they were fully developed uh but also considering the state's objectives and most importantly what's going to make sense for the town um so I want to make sure that we're not just not just picking the things that we think are least likely to be developed because I think we've picked locations that are all currently uh in use and we foresee them having a long lifetime in that use um but thinking about what the plan uh what makes most sense uh in a plan in the end thanks thanks Matthew uh Karen go ahead thank you rob um a couple questions I think is one it was option one the one that was voted down at the the town meeting yes okay I just I just wanted to to clarify that um and this the second the second question I have is well I guess it's more of a comment is I mean I I understand that the the state is not yet I guess I'll put in the word yet requiring us to develop these areas but I you know I think it's it may be a slippery slope is you get it zoned first and then you know I I just think of how would how would I feel if you decided to Zone you know my residential area as part of this and I think that's something that we should kind of consider as we're as we're looking at these Parcels because I do know that you know I think a lot of people that are in the residential or close to the area or in I guess in the residential areas that are being rezoned or considering resoning you know how would we feel if that were our our area being rezoned would we be as amenable so that was just a sort of a comment trying to think of through this yeah uh I I don't want to speak for every member of the board but I think the reality is there's uh 177 communities in Hopkin being one of them that's talking about Zoning for MBTA communities because it was kind of forced upon each individual town uh um so we're trying to come up with Solutions when we we didn't set out to to um as a community we didn't set out this with this as our individual objective it was a state uh objective at the state level um and so we're trying to find a solution but yes I uh completely understand and can appreciate anyone who lives Within These zones or is uh adjacent to these zones yeah I mean for for that matter why not just rezone all of downtown you know and then and let that let that be because nobody would will redevelop that so that's kind of a you know it's sort of a cious comment but I but you sort of get what I'm saying right Lucia go ahead um I think going off what you just said Rob when I look at today's meeting I see this as something that we have to do um the state says you have to do this and so I feel like the goal is to choose a plan or plans that we will present at special town meeting in order to comply with the law that the state has said we must comply with um so I think keeping that in mind and in terms of the input um what I want to say is we welcome everybody's input and what I think would be most helpful for me would be if um residents would tell us which plan they think is best and why because at the end of the day we have to come to the town with a plan in order to comply with the state law thanks Lucia Parker go ahead yeah I agree with actually wholeheartedly with what the just said is we stand to lose more than uh gain if we try to thumb our nose at the state and push for anything but compliance so possibly Rob I don't know if there's any enforcement mechanism we can't as part of this meeting that have any public comment or state which plan they want uh that would be super helpful I like that yeah I I agree uh our our goal is to put together the best plan we think uh we that would meet the requirements uh by the state for town meeting and ultimately it's the town meeting vote that's going to determine like our vote is going to be the proposal um then on the town meeting floor any if anyone's been to town meeting um people can anyone can propose an amendment to what we propose and ultimately those amendments can be voted on if there's a second so we're putting putting together a proposal of what we think is our the best plan and then once it gets a town meeting floor um any variety of things can happen and ultimately there'll be a vote on anything that is uh whether it's the original plan we propose or an amendment to that plan but um that's that I think that's our goal is to put forward the best plan we think uh meets the objectives of the residents and voters of town go ahead Vic thanks Rob Rob as you mentioned and I know that I've been part of the zoning advisory committee as well as planning board um just want to say that yes you're right it's been forced by the you know state to we have to Abate to this law uh just to give a little more confidence to the public and the people who are attending out here is that you know we have went through each and every zoning section and we debated a lot Ted is out here who HS the zoning board on our side and there was no stone turned around to get this but uh unfortunately you know the for we voted down in the first down meeting but looks like now the state is forcing us back vot it as a yes which is kind of I call it as blackmailing but it's my personal view but not from the board just to want to be clear on that uh so the question what I have another one which I should should have asked previously but I but I just want to check here maybe John for this if you can clarify what happens if this decline even this in the special town meeting or when it comes across do we get a third chance to vote again or it's done deal and we face the consequences by the state you have answer there Rob go ahead John I think the answer is we don't know no I mean we so we don't have a limited number of chances to pass this we can do this every town meeting if you want but as of December 31st of this year if we don't have a bylaw adopted by the that's approvable by the state or eligible by the state we will be considered a non-compliant community and we will be considered non-compliant until we adopt something that is in conformance with the state laws so it's not like we you know we only have two shots at this and then we're done forever it's it's just what we'd have to wait until the next town meeting um but we wouldn't be able to have another town meeting between now and the end of the year end of the year so basically it's that we have to vote a yes that's how I'm hearing by force to be compliant but thanks yeah thanks for clarifying [Music] M go ahead Parker do you want to com go ahead Michael yeah so I just wanted to add a little context for everybody too just so everybody on the call knows the uh area that's outlined in purple in the center of town the zoning there is already denser than the M BTA zoning um requirement by W so essentially that area in the center would be a wash I thought it would be important for people on the call to know that for context thanks Michael Ted do you uh I see you're on our uh screen share and for everybody they I think everybody knows Ted is uh the chair of the zoning advisory committee but uh would you like to make any comments I think by rules you're going to need to state your name and address but do you have any comments uh my name is Ted Barker hook I am the chair of the zoning advisory committee I live at 75 Grove Street right here in Hopkinson I don't know uh Rob what comments would be helpful right now or if you'd like to keep me in reserve for questions um I guess I could very quickly try to capture what we the zoning advisory committee saw our job was here at this second swipe um first we responding very much to what you guys on the planning board at least what we understood that you guys on the planning board asked us to do uh that included coming up with multiple options in addition to reconsidering the first option the one that has been pre-approved by the state but got voted down at town meeting so that's what we tried to achieve our big goals were number one be in compliance with the state um there was Zero real voice of any kind that said what we should do is not come up with a law and fight the state um there were a couple questions what happens if we don't come up with a law but we were in complete agreement that our job was to come up with a overlay and uh zoning bylaws that would be in compliance our second goal as it was at our first swipe was to try to come up with a plan that is in the spirit of what the state is going for with regard to public transportation um but also one that would not add to our exploding population in the foreseeable future um we think that all of the plans we put together do a pretty good job of that um finally when we were considering properties and we did consider many many properties including things like the golf course the rod and gun clubs um the YMCA one of the things that we and um open space potentially places where there were trees one of the things that we wanted to consider is if and perhaps when there is development that it would be in areas where there is already a degree of dense housing so it wouldn't dramatically create new areas of dense housing in town further exacerbating difficulties we have with growth in the town so all three plans we have include some areas of already uh dense housing Condominiums um townhouse type things so that's my sweeping overview of what we tried to achieve um and if more specific questions come up or if you have some now I'm happy to take a crack at him all right Ted yeah there might be specific questions that uh ask for some zoning advisory committee like thought process uh so if you if you were willing to stay on that'd be great absolutely um I do think one I I'll just start with one uh comment and I don't know everybody on the on the call that's been listening in on our select board meetings but one of the things we've been cognizant of a board as Ted mentioned is try not to choose uh Parcels for MBTA communities that could be redeveloped instantaneously that are above and beyond what they're already zoned for um the sele board has kind of said this many time several times in their past several meetings that the average home in hopkington has 12,500 a year tax bill today and with the uh number of new schools uh we are building and the cost of the schools that average tax bill is going to go to about a little over 18,000 by 2030 so we have tried to put forward a plan where we don't think it's going to add housing in a the near term being 5 to 10 years 15 years maybe even 20 um so that's been our approach of what we've tried to do but um we are cognizant of the increased tax tax bills that are coming and we didn't want to add a lot of schooled age children through MBTA Community zoning if we could in the near term so that was one of the things we tried to do but at this point point I think it makes sense to open it up to public comment uh and get the P get anybody's input or anybody's feedback that they want to share on the call whoever is speaks you need to give your name and address and uh we'll go from there I don't know if I'm going to be able to see raised hands or John if you're going to be uh managing that yeah I can manage I am seeing two raised hands and so uh when people raise their hands you pop to the top of the list I will hit the allow to talk button and you should come up as part of a panel member but let's try so Diaz SF is the first one thanks John uh this is Shane Diaz I live in five birwood Lane uh John did give us a demonstration or presentation regarding about the uh the new article and the warrant that needs to be passed and I appreciate what the state is doing doing um and the fact that we have to comply to the state but in order to do so I rather select an option that will be best needed or best fit for what we live right so I live in Indian Brook 90% to 100% of the surrounding areas is Wetlands for conservation area so looking at from that aspect right um that pretty much I'm not sure but it negates the extension building I'm not sure John I should have asked you when we when you presented this I just also have to be the be the president of the board here at Indian Brook and for the last 24 years and uh I mean I believe in definitely um seeing a solution for this but when we do select uh a final option or options plural I just want to make sure that we definitely look at the best fit um sites that we can really um have the state move forward and to further develop thanks Jay I'm seeing uh sunny rwa as next are you able to hear me I we are now okay great thanks uh this is Sun uh lakmi Nan I live in two Lan Lane hopkington pretty much in the Indian Brook I think Mr Diaz is uh actually the head of the um the association here my question is as Mr Diaz pointed out uh if you look at I would say the gis uh the bound limits most of it is wetlands and there isn't enough space I haven't seen the earlier versions of where the development could come I don't know whether you guys shared it but there will be a significant impact to the wetlands and uh development as such you're going to remove trees and you're going to damage the environment I don't know whether um has the Town Council looked into it as the Planning and Zoning folks looked into it because it looks like there could be significant environment Al concerns that could arise from this so uh sunny I I I think um the general thinking is that a developer would need to buy each condo in the association uh eliminate the condo rules that exist today and redevelop the whole entire parcel of uh and not add uh units to the existing uh existing Condo Association that's the general uh way uh that land would be developed under MBTA communities so just a followup on that if that is the case then is there Eminence domain eminent domain going to apply where we have to kind of sell or be forced to sell to the developer no there's no way there's no precedent of that uh think of the I've said this before to other people but think of the political Fallout uh if they at the state they instituted a bylaw to and then they force people out of their homes the uh it would just politically never happen for a politician that that would be acceptable so what is the way forward unfortunately I missed the last uh you know meetings but if I know there is like few options one two and three I guess one is in downtown the other one is close to the restaurant and then the third one is the Indian Brook so if all three options are not um I have actually driven past the Carboni sites even a couple of days ago when I was looking at it right next to it there is a lot of I would say again uh looks like open space preserved land I'm not sure exactly whether they are open space preserved for any kind of town purposes um if if all three fail then um what is is the recourse is there or is it something that the state would like to do or is it just an option that the town has or is it mandatory to comply with it to get the state funding so I think we've already answered these questions but let me let me give it a try so uh we're going to move to the next person list after this but um there's no requirement from the state that any con any of these uh MBTA Community units be built uh there's no plan that the state is going to take any land by eminent domain uh if we do not comply with mvta communities zoning within our town yes we are would become ineligible for funding um in various grants and that's the that's the risk um there could be future litigation from the state trying to force the town to comply and other we don't know um if we don't comply thank you Ally go ahead or I'm seeing Donald Jackson as the next on the list well I was gonna try and allow Ally to talk Ally you wanted to talk can you just raise your hand again if you don't want to talk don't raise your hand okay it's all right for the public when you lower your hand you kind of drop off the top of my my menu so if you lowerer your hand before I promote you to a panelist I'm going to have to find you I I apologize can you hear me yes go ahead state your name and address and go ahead hi my name is Allison calderara I one of the Unfortunate Souls who live at wcot Valley um I think you kind of answered some of my questions when talking to the last gentleman I was wondering do the residents get a vote in this like right now you're saying that we're not required to build anything we just have to Zone it so they could build in the future but if the state comes knocking and says okay we're ready to kick you all out do the do the residents get any sort of vote in that at all or they just handed a check and wish us good luck finding a new home so so the only two ways it could really happen uh for Walcott Valley in particular so Walcott Valley has uh as a entire Association has a deed and it's my understanding um and I don't know if the president of your association's on the call but it's my understanding 66 and 23% of the condo owners would need to vote to expand the size uh of in the number of units of the association so yes you get a vote and it would require a two-thirds vote to change the number of units and also it would require pretty much everyone to sell um their units and whatever the market rate is uh if a developer wanted needed to buy all 100% of those units the market uh that would drive the cost per unit up and those would become more worth more to um you as an owner would be my I don't want to give Financial advice but that would be my I think that's General generally accepted knowledge that the more uses for land the land becomes more valuable yeah that that makes sense I just get scared about having to find something new that I could afford when I'm trying to retire all right thank you so much I appreciate it y uh Donald Jackson hi thank you Mr chairman can you hear me yes this is Donald Jackson I live at for Lincoln Street in hopkington um so first off i' I'd like to acknowledge that both the planning board and the zoning advisory committee were were trying to navigate a very challenging a very narrow window um you know I think in some of of our previous meetings I've raised concerns about the lack of infrastructure in the uh the upper Cedar Street area where option one would place a large number of units um what if any consideration was given to the existing infrastructure around some of the other unit Alternatives and if a developer was to build in any of these Parcels how much of the burden of upgrading that infrastructure would fall on the developer versus either a Butters or the down rate payers as a whole typically with John you can maybe help me a little bit but let me let me give my let me start so Cedar Street in general um I I I think I I said uh a few minutes ago we try to select Properties or Parcels that we didn't think would be developed uh in the near- term because of uh we didn't want to add uh uh school age a lot of school age children through the MBT communities so not having infrastructure for Cedar Street makes it appealing that there's no infrastructure so there'd be no so the developer it would just cost more which makes the business case to redevelop um down on Cedar Street more expensive so we think that just puts it more it makes it financially less pable to put an MBTA Community project in those areas because there isn't infrastructure in water and sewer um it just makes it more expensive so that business case it becomes harder to be a profitable business case um and in other projects part of any type of site plan review is the infrastructure and it's really the burden of the of the applicant which would be any new developer to to ensure there's enough water and sewer capacity John can you help me with that like we typically don't get into that type of questions yeah um so probably should have gone through the presentation because a lot of these questions uh were actually in the presentation because they're very popular questions and people ask them all the time uh developers would be responsible for 100% of the upgrades to utilities the town would not be responsible for installing or upgrading to uh utilities to serve any new developments that would be entirely the um the developers responsibility sorry was that there was a two-part question was there another part well I I guess yeah I I also you know for me personally obviously my my major concern is about the The Proposal that places a large number of units in proximity to my residence but I'm I'm sure for others you know understanding what the potential impacts are for some of the Alternatives is probably equally pressing for them and you know I I confess I I don't really understand what the or don't know what the infrastructure is for Indian Brook and Walcott Valley but my understanding is outside of the center of town a lot of our town is on well and septic and adding high density housing in any of those areas presumably would cause a great deal of impact to any adjacent residents with that there'd be an assessment um I I don't know I I don't want to guess at the impact but uh I think just the more strain on any type of public utility by more housing uh it obviously adds more to the system so that all has to be factored in and calculations done but I would assume you are correct that uh it would put more strain on the systems that are there uh Ken Ken wise metal would you like to go there we go okay I'm unmuted now I think I'll set Ken Weiss Manel 145 Ash Street I'm the former chair of zoning advisory committee and also planning board I have five points I'd like to make tonight the first point is I think you need to consider what the value of the property is to a developer so look across the other side of the table as a planning board members and see who would be applying in be in uh for this permit right now a developer in Hopkinson will pay4 to $60,000 per unit for the opportunity to build a apartment on a piece of property so if you're at 15 units per acre that comes up to 600,000 at 40,000 and it's 900,000 per acre if it's up to 60k units for example the Legacy Farms and also the Windsor development off of Lumber Street were all sold for the raw land at $4,000 an acre and on top of that the Windsor had to put on his own septic system in so it it's profitable at that area your downtown project where the op drug is is rumored to be sold for $60,000 a unit though the infrastructure is right there for that so if you look at that alone the value of the Carboni property is significantly less current value than what a developer would buy it for so that is prime developable land I would agree with you on all the condo projects that the condo s have more value to the current owners than the $600,000 an acre or uh $900,000 an acre those condos are worth a lot more than that therefore it would not be economic for a developer in the current stated way to buy that land second point is on number of students that we're talking about I read somewhere where somebody in the planning board said that you ought to look at the Legacy Farm Apartments to try to project the number of students that would go into this particular project i' would like to remind you that of the 240 units that were at the Legacy Farms Portion 2third of those are one-bedroom apartments I very few people have kids of school age that are living in the same one-bedroom apartment also the Legacy Farms unit would was designed with the help of the planning board to be a senior or older person uh unit there is no playground there there's no play structure the pool is a saltwater pool all things the the gym facilities are are are set up for senior uh or single parent type or singles or single parent divor East uh so that's what that unit is so if you looked at the number of school kids in the Windsor off of Lumber Street which is a was a 40b you will see a significantly higher number of kids because the percentage of two bedroom and even three-bedroom apartments within that is significantly higher so there's a lot more kids off of Lumber Street with that unit so I think if you use the Legacy Farms number of students you'll grossly underestimate the number of kids that you might be putting into into it uh third point the downtown density parking is going to be much more of a problem we tried to encourage Downtown Development by requiring as you know that only half of the units required for businesses have to build parking because we had plenty of parking around that as this gets built in downtown and it will you're going to see much more of a a parking problem so I would suggest you start thinking about that one my fourth point is that you have the will of the town meeting option one was voted down going back I think is an insult to town meeting to go back it's not because it was just enough education or anything like that there was enough people that did not really want support that and it didn't even pass not on the normal 2third but on a 50% rule and my last last uh point is I support the letter of the law not the spirit of the law we want to comply it we want to get the the the grants we want to keep this Commonwealth off our backs but we're not really in the business of wanting to encourage building housing because as our school superintendent said our high school and our Junior High cannot support additional students as they're currently configured and quite frankly we spent all of our money on elementary schools in the last couple Town meetings so given all that I personally can only support option two and uh I would if you pick one or three you will have one vocal opponent at Town Meeting thank you thanks Ken Ursula hunt go ahead can you hear me yes hi my name is Ursula hunt I'm at six wall clap Valley and um I think that any of the condo ideas should not pass as um as a condo owner like I don't know if anybody's been reading about what's happened in Miami with zom zombie condos and developers buying up that um the twoth thirds or whatever to get control of the condo board to then say okay well now these other condos that like if you didn't sell yours when the developer was buying them are worth nothing now and then turning them into whatever they want so I feel like if it has a condo if it is a condo plotted area it shouldn't pass just because of the possibility of a developer doing that thanks arsa for your comment uh uh via is that multiple I don't viia I'll go with that yes Saga yeah this is Vidya Saga uh I'm from preserve 43 Forest Lane uh I just have one point uh to add up is this option one was oted now oted down in the last town meeting uh so I just wanted to reconsider it again back um representing it again is it a uh a viable solution to go back again and ask for the vote for the option one second thing is that is there anything we can do to exclude the private Condominiums pick some parcel from option one and or any other parcel from 20 or3 to exclude the private Condominiums and see if there is any other roll out option and and uh and also if you are non- compliance by December 31st we always have an option of uh presenting a good choice and get back to complaints in the next year towns meeting right so these are the coms um I'm I'm trying to go through your you you had some questions in there um yes the first option first one is I just wanted to just emphasize saying that the it was voted down in the last meeting I just wanted to really value the people's voice and votes over there and um that's that's a that's a comment more about and just give the importance on the oting on the people voice and um and the second thing is is that is there any option where we can exclude the private Condominiums and come up with an option who doesn't have an private condomines as part of parcels uh that's a question and third one is also a question so let me answer let me answer that first so right now before us no there's no there's no proposal that doesn't have any condo associations in it what was your last question uh if if we voted down uh even this time we will be non-c compliance from the state but we we will still have the chance of next year Town voting and be compliance and um is that know is that true like we it's not like forever we'll be non-compliance right so yes if we do not have uh MBTA communities uh uh vote approved a town meeting uh at this special town meeting we will be non-compliant will we will we be able to get in compliance uh at a future town meeting in 2025 or 2026 or any year thereafter uh I believe so yeah we just don't know what will happen or what the ramifications from the state will be in that intermediate time uh they've said they would take away any potential funding From Any Grant programs that we could be eligible for as a town um they the attorney general has said they would file litigation against the town which may like I don't know what's going to happen there I don't think any of us do but uh it's not like there's no downside I just wanted to be clear there is some downside of not having it in there is downside by not having it in place by this uh December 31st yeah thank you Robert I think the second uh one where is so there's no option option which uh which doesn't have a private condominium as part of parcel that's what I just wanted to get it again back yep there's no option on the agenda for tonight that has no Condo Association does that mean we could come back next week potentially uh I think it'd be very difficult to do that but um there's no option on the agenda for tonight that doesn't have a condo association included in it thank you Robert and pre-adoption is not necessary for representing that in the final town hall meeting right we don't need a pre-ad option like U as we have the option when pre I think I think our goal is to have a single option for town meeting or at least I think that would be the preference um I I don't want to speak for all the board yet because they they're gonna have say in that but that would be I think my preference um as I'm going to be speaking for the board at that at town meeting but uh Lucia go ahead thank um I think Elise joined the call so if she can raise her hand and we can add her as a panelist thanks Lucia all right Alison okay are you able to hear me now yes you just St your name and address and uh we'll go from there yeah my name is Allison rhman I live at 26 walk up Valley Drive so one of the affected condominium complexes like my neighbor Allison who spoke earlier I have a lot of concern about where would we go if we were effectively forced out of our homes as part of this plan when our houses are already some of the most affordable housing in hackington and looking on Zillow right now the places that are on sale at walcot Valley Drive are $300,000 less than anything else on there with houses raging up into the multi-millions people forced out are not necessarily going to be able to buy back the chair that is our home and when I watched the zoning board meeting I was really struck at the laser focus on slowing development and what was explicitly discussed was that the more high value condo associations are of Greater usefulness in the current plans because they are less attracted to developers and likely to hold out longer before selling and you also stated that a pro for Walcott Valley's inclusion in de despite being of lower monetary value is that we have fewer units and therefore there are fewer of us to come to town meeting and vote against it you're the chair go go ahead Parker yeah point of order I believe this Point's already been addressed of uh being out of or the perception of the state with eminent domain taking over this is not eminent domain that I'm speaking of uh what I'm speaking of hold on hold on hold on the state already regardless of NBTA communities has the ability to take any property and so we've addressed this and Robert I understand the spirit of what we're trying to do as part of this discussion is there any way we can kind of like if the point is already been addressed as part of a meeting we could you know possibly folks have or introduce new ideas that haven't already been covered today just I'm sorry but you're misinterpreting what I was trying to say and I would really appreciate the opportunity to complete my point I think but I think for today I think I'd rather be more inclusive of all comment then then limit somebody that has probably never been on a planning board meeting before so Alice Allison just finish just go ahead thank you it's actually 75% of us would have to vote and then to sell I am aware I am aware of all of that what was just really striking to me is that it keeps being presented as you will not be forced this is your choice this is not a feta comp plea when you actually listen to the zoning speaking it's spoken with the understanding that we will sell eventually and it's a matter of how long we hold out and therefore what the value of that is to the town in slowing development that we're essentially being used as bulwarks when we are people who live here and I really appreciated Karen Will's comment earlier where she acknowledged that that's actually a pretty hard thing to live with within a community to know that you have that hanging over your head um it's I feel like it's being presented in two ways where on the one hand it's don't worry don't worry this is all under your control when it's being discussed in zoning it's the expectation this will happen Allison uh I I just looked this up earlier before the meeting but could you refresh my memory how many units are in Walcott Valley um I believe it's a little over 60 I think it's 6 66 so it would take 50 50 votes to en change and it would take all 66 people to sell just um but I obviously heard your other another member in your that lives in walot Valley saying there's concerned once they get to 50 votes the the remaining properties um there would just be that would be a challenge um I understand your reasoning I understand why slowing development is important and the strain on Town resources I understand the consequences of not complying with the state what I feel is that these condo communities are essentially being used as a sacrifice for the town and that's not really h a good feeling no not at all we live here we were really happy to get the to get the place that we that we live in so yeah anyway that's my piece all right thank you uh Dale you're next on uh on the list if you could just state your name and address I don't know if Dale walked away from the computer is we can't hear you Dale if you're uh if you're talking do we have the possibility to go to the next person in the list and put Dale back in the queue John do we can we go to Joyce yep okay can you hear he me yep we can hear you hi I'm Joyce Michelle I'm at number 40 Walcott Valley Drive and uh I um my initial question uh was very well answered by Ken weismantle which was exactly what what are the metrics for how a developer would regard a property you know what would they pay for and stuff that was extremely helpful but then he went on to say some other things that sort of confused me I don't know if he's still around to clarify it but he said of the three plans he would only go for I don't remember which he said the second or the third plan but I've heard the plans presented in different orders at different times so I was wondering um he seemed so well informed and so committed to a particular plan if he would clarify which of the plans he thought was preferable because I I didn't follow that I don't really want to take the uh the approach of I guess I'll do it this time go I don't like this approach of having uh people from attending the meeting give answers but Ken go why don't you voice your opinion uh for Joyce's benefit I I supported option two because it does not include the Carboni land which is basically underdeveloped and is being offered was offered it's it's aess at like $2 million and it' be worth over $6 million to a developer at the low end of that unit so uh I do not believe that any condo would ever get enough owners to sell and quite frankly the value of the condos is significantly above the $600,000 an acre that would require this to to to to be financially viable for developer both both the Indian Brook and and also Walcott Valley have both Water and Sewer uh uh infrastructure too but that's but I've answered your point thank you very much okay I guess what I didn't understand the one that he said was preferable was that the one that included Indian Brook yes okay that was um and the other thing I didn't understand was he said a lot about that Legacy Farms was not contributing a lot of children because it had so many one-bedroom units and I was wondering if he had possibly misspoken because I know there are huge numbers of children at Legacy Farms and I think it's multi so Legacy Legacy Farms is made up of a lot of different uh housing types or dwelling dwelling unit types in within Legacy Farms there's fundamentally an apartment building or buildings um okay and those are primarily one bedroom is what he was referring to right right um I don't know what of the the various condo complexes are any of them primarily one one bedroom um I know Walcott Valley has 12 one-bedroom and 54 two-bedroom I believe uh so I'm pretty sure and uh I see Eric weand on the list he's he's the president pres of The Preserve Association but I'm pretty sure The Preserve is all two-bedroom uh and Indian Brook I think is a a mixture of uh one two and three bedroom okay thank you uh I'm gonna go back to the board for a minute uh Michael go ahead I just want to remind people try to stay in the four corners of the discussion we're getting a little off track with some of the comments thanks Michael Matthew go ahead thanks um just to to that point so Legacy Farms at itself is a much higher than the town average but the um Apartments there are about a national average of about um 20 CH 20 children per 100 units um Windsor is in total is is below the town average um I think it's about 50 um children per 100 units whereas the town average is a little above 60 just for those contexts that thanks Matthew I think for everybody's benefit on the call as part of MBTA Community zoning we cannot limit number of bedrooms uh within MBTA Community zoning we cannot limit MBTA zoning to plus 55 communities so we can't put any age restrictions on NBTA Community zoning we can't put any number of bedrooms restrictions on mpta zoning commu uh so I think those are two important points Eric uh Eric wheen go ahead there we go hi can you hear me yes oh good good yeah this is Eric Wheeland I'm a 13 Forest Lane I'm on the board here at The Preserve and I've sat in at many meetings and um I don't I just want to uh voice my opinion again I do do not believe you should be putting any properties up that have people living on the properties um we've requested twice now through our attorneys not to be considered and we have not received a response from the planning board or the select board from our requests from our attorneys and um we just don't want to be um rezoned and I think we have that right to to request that um and um and I agree with Allison and at wcot Village the same um you know we we live here we um You can call it a condo but it's a home to us and we we live here we don't know and again I've asked this question in the past and I I eminent domain would be political suicide I agree but we don't know what the state's going to do when you offer up properties that seem that they won't be developed for five 10 15 20 years from now the state's going to react to that and uh no one can answer what's what's going to happen um I strongly urge the planning board to look at properties that don't have um Hoppington homeowners on the property um that's what you should be doing and and not offering up um places where we live and we we're bringing up families um I'm raising my grandson here I want to be here for a while and um it's it's very concerning um and I just wanted to speak again about that because um I I I think we have to come together on this and respect the people that live on the properties that you you people are are selecting it's it's it's uh it's very very uh difficult for us thanks Eric and that's y all right uh Parker do you have a would you like to speak Parker you ra oh God looks like Parker dropped off the call so he must have just been trying to rejoin oh he looks like she's showing as a raised hand to me but um Let me let me uh let me give my input so um for anybody on the call that knows me uh uh I've lived in Hopkin in a long time uh I think since 1986 so 38 years um went to high school went to school uh Elementary School um part of I'm on the planning board is to keep uh try to ensure hopkington maintains this rural kind of character and charm I am do not want large scale dense housing in hopkington um and I think but in this case the state is forcing upon us to put together proposal so I think it's the planning boards um kind of I think we have to put together our best proposal for town meeting and then let the town meeting vote on it so I don't think it's a viable path to say NOP we're just not gonna the planning board is going to decide for all of the will of the town we don't want to put something forward but we need to put together our best proposal so that's what we've been doing for two and a half years is working on this um this is not new these discussions are not new um I see more people have joined um uh rais their hand so before uh I continue what why don't we take some of these comments uh Cheryl Gladstone go ahead oh okay I can you hear me yes okay great this is Cheryl Gladstone 9 Forest Lane in The Preserves um I just want to reiterate what what Ken was saying um there was a very large gathering for three I believe days maybe four I don't know it was a bad memory um and you know there was a vote on this and to put The Preserve back into um the you know the the vote makes no sense to me like I it really it really is insulting um there are a lot of people who you know went to that meeting to support The Preserve throughout the town we we did g gain over 50% of the vote and we we basically declined the use of our property for the purpose of trying to fake a um adherence to the new law and I dealt very much when when you know I'm sorry but I dealt very much when you went before the state and proposed our property in the first place that you mentioned to them that there's no infrastructure here and that um the property is currently um in use there are people living here who would be displaced and would have you know in this economy and with the lack of housing Across the Nation so so we're just going to displace the people who live there now so that you can build housing to satisfy the state and how how it turns out I I don't know but in most of the meetings when you have the public involved um the statement is you don't have to worry about an eminent domain you don't have to worry about these things it's 30 years it's 20 years whatever but then there have been some statements made by certain people the newspaper and in in you know some public forum where they said the state wants to move quickly on this move quickly on what on developing property for 750 units I'm I I you know I don't I don't really understand the the sort of the communication that's going on with respect to this but I do truly think the state has some intention to sure that um you know these properties are developed so I I I'm not really understanding why you would offer up properties that are already developed and there are people living there and we are residents and you know like like like Ken said it is very insulting that you would put our property back up for a vote so uh with the MBTA communties bylaw different towns are considered uh differently so there's uh I think 11 towns are considered Rapid Transit communities and so they had to have their MBTA zoning overlay map done by December 31st 2023 so all of those towns put together uh a map and complied besides Milton Milton feels they shouldn't be a rapid transit community so they're fighting it in court the the Attorney General of Massachusetts has filed a lawsuit against them but I think the bigger the point I'm trying to make is those towns considered Rapid Transit Community are all in and around Boston and all of those towns already had areas of land with very dense housing where they put an MBTA Zone zoning overlay District by and large over areas that were already built to that density so what is it going to do it's in effect going to do add no additional housing units because they made an overlay map where that housing already exists so that is kind of that's that's basically what happened and so other towns that have MBTA Community requirements are trying to do similar things a lot not every town but most towns if they already have land that is has that density of housing that's what we tried to do to the first order we tried to look at uh the Windsor Apartments we tried to look at the apartment complex and Legacy Farms and because of the spa special nature of those uh apartment complexes being one with being in the osmed uh open space mixed use development District we couldn't uh consider legacy Farms Windsor being a 40b project and all of them be considered affordable housing we couldn't include that so we're trying to go to op the next options uh and options we don't think are going to be readily developed um because we don't think there's a financial business case uh for some of these options you know again I I just I you know I think you know you're sort of making decisions um and impacting certain residents of the town and it it it I'm sorry I I just don't feel that you've thought through the impact to people in the town thoroughly because I do think the state is going to is very underhanded and there will be something that they'll do do you do you think there's any proposal we could put forward that wouldn't impact anyone in town I think I think there are are potentially I mean I'm I'm not an expert on this town but I I'm I think there are potentially areas that um are currently unused um that could be developed and and then we get into the the argument that oh well it's not really near the train well we're in adj community and what we got in some of the other previous meetings was oh well the spirit of the law we wanted to build something that is near the train or you know convenient near the train well that's not the that's not the law the law for the adjacent Community is not the same as a non-adjacent community and therefore you could go further and you could have um busing to the train um so yeah there there's undeveloped I'm I'm sure there's undeveloped property or vacant property and that that you could use what we got in in one of the last meetings was oh we really want to leave some of that vacant properly you know for commercial use okay so you want to dis the residents of Hoppington in order to have potential commercial usage and I don't know I just I'm I'm sorry but I feel like we already went through this at town meeting and we're all being brought back in to fight for our rights in this town and I I think it's pretty unfair um particularly for The Preserve because we were the ones that were you know on the on the uh Amendment uh for town meeting in May thanks Cheryl I encourage everyone not just people on this call but everyone I think local politics uh are maybe the most important kind of politics so attending town meeting I think is uh extremely important uh so I encourage everyone to attend uh town meeting Parker go ahead yeah I just think like historically like you have to put this in context what's happening right now folks like zoom out for a second uh 2008 happened right when with the economic collapse and what you had was essentially a collapse of the housing market from a new construction perspective literally the market bottomed out and you know many people lost their homes there were foreclosures a lot of single family single uh single family folks lost their homes but also um what you then saw was folks that had capital and the ability to acquire land started to buy up for example U old apartment buildings and turn them into luxury condos or turn them into you know luxury managed buildings and you saw this happen all over the place and simultaneously you saw developers see that as a huge Market opportunity and invests a ton in these large highrise or not highrises but these large managed buildings that we see going up all over the state and why this is significant is because uh it there was a huge incentive to have these expensive high rent high cost of rent places because you made a ton of money not cater to what uh uh planning folks call middle housing and mean also on the on the actual home side on single family homes folks like you know you may hear like Toll Brothers on here a lot people that makes like luxury homes you know we're talking like four four bed four bath 4,000 foot kind of homes they never really stopped building because there was still a market from 2008 on for those kinds of homes and like look at Hopkinson today what do you have you have a luxury managed building with like lindsor you have massive 4 bed four bath 4,000 foot homes everywhere and folks like myself that a millennial suit you know I'm not rich wanted to buy into Hopkins and I got lucky to be able to buy in here but a lot of people are you not able to and one the reasons is because of middle housing and so when Charlie Baker passed this law back in 200 uh 2021 he only passed it because and this this is all the news you can read this on wgbh.org [Music] in enforcing NBTA communities and the reason was is because they wanted to create the option of middle housing now they could have done because the state always has the power to build enforce building but they didn't pursue legislation at the state level to actually do that instead they did like the middle ground which in the face of doing nothing and having a housing shortage that we have in Massachusetts or in the face of forcing people to do and create homes they did the middle ground which is let's use this plan the NBTA communities create owning districts where if people want the choice to sell their home down the line they can or cities and towns can create special you know districts with the idea of them being in the spirit of the law was to create them near um towns that and towns that have t- stops then folks might be encouraged to you know use public transportation instead of us having to do tons of capital infrastructure projects to build New Roads so that's how we got here is you know we had a change of administration and one that wanted to pursue this now how this SP a Hopkin tent is we as a town if you look at us across all other towns in the state are pretty much number one in terms of investment that we've had to do for education and taking out Capital bonds to create uh homes and part to create schools and that's because Little Homes have been created the influx of population partially because a planning board a few boards ago allowed for Legacy Farms to move forward and so now that we have like caught up with that growth and we're at a point to where the current after the um capital projects are done with the new schools will probably be able to sustain at a decent rate not have to do these massive projects folks it's a really bad idea to want to build uh or allow with NBTA communities an open parcel because if we do only open Parcels for the uh NBTA communities plan what's going to happen there's an opportunity to take mixed use create a ton of condos which is assuredly going to add a ton and ton of uh kids to the schools which is going to increase your property taxes because we'll have to what take out new capital bonds to build more schools so this is the whole point for all the folks that are part of the condo communities let me tell you as a board member I can't do this you can put my house in if you want as part of the NB communities I'm all for it I actually think because it's what's called up zoning whenever you take any kind of property and add additional uses for it creates the ability for a property developer to then come in and do what more opportunity more things to ship which creates more value so this actually creates more value for you as a potential homeowner one number one but number two all the property associations that if you wanted to actually buy them out it would wipe out any c Capital benefits that a developer would have by you know essentially developing what would otherwise have been a open parcel so that's what we're trying to do folks this isn't a conspiracy nobody's taking away property rights you actually have a potential to increase the value your property as part of this what we're really trying to do is not see people taxed out of their homes and I said this to town meeting I'll say it again saw a grown man cry before me who said getting taxed out of my home in hopkington and I'm five generations here that's what we're trying to avoid and you know I respect folks in being afraid unnerved or whatever but guys we're not like we're not fools you you have folks that are really smart people on this board that are trying to you see4 the best interests of this town truly we have the best interest in heart and so respectfully we're doing our best here and we're not trying to hurt you you can put this on my house Cheryl if you want to that's a great idea respectfully I'm not a fool and I I really do think maybe you should put up your property along with I can't it's a conflict of interest the amount of acreage that on which you could build the 750 units I think that's a great idea so we've given you an idea um I can't so but the point is this is I'm not afraid of this I'm not afid to give ideas of land I just gave you one Michael go ahead yeah I just want to keep reiterating what you know Rob's been making the point about we are not like doing this with any secret plan in the background or any uh coordination with the state other than the fact that these rules were kind of forced upon us the entire intention of this board and Zoning advisory is to have as the little impact on the town as possible so when people come up here and comment I think they need to keep that in mind thanks thanks Michael some um I don't John do you know if some of the people that are hands are raised I don't know if they've ever left the list or if they're come back on the list yeah uh some of them have come back on I don't know if some of them have um lowered their hand so we can call on them again if you'd like and then try and Su uh call on the new people first I don't think we've heard from Dale's iPad well if I could work technology you'd be able to hear from me the last time I think maybe you can hear it this time yep we we got you yay Dale Dane 25 East Main Street so I live next to the U walkoff Valley condos and I well aware of all the things that you've been trying to do I know your first step is to comply with the law My worry is as people have said so what happens when the state wants you to comply with the law and not just put it on paper but they want this stuff to be built because people you know can't uh can't afford housing in Massachusetts so how do we comply what happens when the state says okay you got five years figure it out build these condos that you've just put I mean these this area that you've just put down on paper can you guarantee that they're not going to ask that you keep saying it's a 12 to 20 year development don't worry about it well Som you're gonna have uh Dale I you're right I none of us are fortune tellers but the state is not a real estate developer per se they're not they're not building uh so say like for example say any parcel of land in hopk got zoned as MBTA communities it would take that current land owner to either decide to build an MBTA communities themselves a project or to sell it to somebody else that was going to build it so it would take for the most part uh it would take a transaction of a sale of land to somebody that's a developer that's going to develop it um the state's not gonna be in that process like what is how's the state going to be in that I don't see any way the state's involved in that process they could offer grants they could offer money to a developer to make it worth their while to do it you can't tell me they they not going to do that how do you know this is like um is that possible like I said we're we're not fortune tellers like is that possible potentially I I guess I don't know so I think when Karen was was offering ton and tongue and cheek let's let's develop downtown and and use that I think that's a great idea people don't want to see their property changed I I agree with all the condo owners I don't want to see it my backyard I don't want to see these people hurt and that's what we're going to do potentially and so make the whole business take 50 ACR of business downtown look around South Street pick up business that isn't going to hurt somebody and rezone them I don't think they care thanks thanks D option four I just have to add this Rob most of the downtown is already zone for higher density housing correct ye uh yes but the um the land area is not is not bit like the the land area that's zoned for uh downtown for that density of housing is is not over 50 acres it's smaller it's already zoned for a high density housing and somebody hasn't come and boughten all of it and developed it that's the point it's zoning yeah good point uh of Fiona's uh maybe eagle eigor R hello Igor rub in 49 Forest Lane uh so I a bit confused about something I would like kind of you to give a bit more detail option one and option three both include cabon rest as far as I can tell now uh we know for a fact that this the owner of that land actually wants to sell it he had the offer on the table contingent on the passing of the previous law back in May that didn't happen but I'm going to assume that the offer is still there so if the board's plan is to kind of try and delay the actual construction why do we include that land again I think that's a good point um I don't want to speak for the whole board but I I'll speak for myself I am not in favor of including that land uh and our go for will we bring to town meeting understood thank you Fiona go ahead there are certain communities um housing are considered could you uh could you start start by saying your name and address okay Fiona Kaya 31 Forest Lane in The Preserve when the consideration of housing to include people who are homeowners did the board consider the the areas where there are properties that are one to two million which again would be a disincentive to developers that instead if you're taking a vast of 30 Acres with these High um property values to include those in the mvta is there a reason why they were not considered secondly there are other areas that are our business which I guess would also not be uh conducive for example the uh Elderly Homes like Golden Pond and there's another one is there a reason why those were not also considered as an overlay uh I don't I don't know if Ted you're able to speak to this or Vic you're on the you're on the zoning advisory committee like uh I I don't I wasn't in all the meetings to understand the entire conversation about every parcel across town hey Rob this is Ted I can try a little bit but I also cannot remember every discussion about every parcel around town um I think that for for any Resident that is Raising questions about other properties those are completely valid questions um we spent a lot of time talking about a lot of properties and for all the residents who are pointing out we cannot know the future I agree with you too we cannot know the future we were doing the best we could to pick properties that we thought were unlikely to be developed in the near future that the only way they could be developed was if the owners themselves chose to sell them at presumably quite a um high price with that said we also had to consider what if the owners did decide to sell them what would that due to the way we think about our town and development in our town so one reason we did include condominium areas was if the owners did decide to sell them it's an area already with high density housing so it would not add massive amount of housing if they did get sold conversely if a business chose to sell if they chose to again we don't know if they would have well now we are losing potentially commercial income from our tax base and secondly that is doing nothing but adding population to the town because nobody lives in a business and we certainly thought about open land where there's no housing and to us that seemed the worst option not because we worried that we were stepping on someone's rights in fact every time something is rezoned we are adding to people's property rights because it expands the number of potential buyers who could buy it the real downside to zoning land that is undeveloped is it's one of the cheapest parts of land to buy making it most likely for developers to come in and dramatically increase our town population and even more importantly our school populations um we did talk about um Golden Pond for a little bit one real concern is if it did get developed it struck us as an absolute traffic nightmare where it was sitting in town on a road that is already a traffic nightmare we thought about um South Street where there are businesses um I think I've already hit on some of our concerns with South Street in losing potential commercial Revenue but it also struck us as a potential traffic nightmare in a section of town that is already dealing with traffic nightmares so hopefully that touches on some of our other considerations of other properties in town but it would be really difficult for me to go through every property we touched on and remember every discussion we had and every pro and con point about them I hope that helps a little bit I mean it I guess for the condominium owners the problem we have is that single family homes like Highland Park or all the other areas in town were not even put on the map at all so if you take you know a a aggregate of like all those homes in the area if they're like between 1.5 to two million that in itself would be a disincentive for a developer in order to have to buy out all those surrounding homes it's much more expensive than Condominiums our our um uh discussions with town uh the planning previous towning board was that the reason why Condominiums were chosen is that because we have um um planning meetings to it's I think 75 majority that we as a block would be the ones to vote as as condominium owners we don't want to have that responsibility that a developer over the years will contact us and say this is a proposal we're having and then we would have to meet to vote it down that's something that we don't want to have and we expressed that by our vote in the first meeting in May and it seems again that been ignored so now we're in a position again to Rally up all our friends and neighbors and children in our schools to turn up on November 18 to vote it down and then planning board will find themselves again in the same position of non-compliance Fiona it's the it's not the planning board that' be in non-compliance it's the town of hopkington then the town will be in non-compliance because we've been put in this position again of going to all our neighbors rally all our friends and the children's friends that all of you show up to town meeting because our vote was not heard the first time we need you again the second time so which plan do you like what's the plan that has the downtown area because then there are no residents there as of now all the plans have a downtown area have it in the original plan what's the the one which had the pharmacy that closed that was on the board in back in May the there's three plans past there's three plans in front of us three options in front of us all of them include the downtown area all of them include uh what was Hopkin and Drug yes I'm saying all three plans before us include that that land yeah but no they all have condos but they don't have single family all right we're gonna move to thanks thanks Fiona we're GNA move to v v vagara I think I I already expressed my you just would you mind just putting your hand down if you don't have additional comment on the zoom sure thank you uh let's go to Sharon Reynolds Sharon if you uh unmute yourself you say your name and address I'm so sorry Sharon Reynolds 6 lean Lane did you hear anything that I said probably not right okay no no okay so I understand the complexity of of this issue um and the urgency that uh the planning board is feeling um it just seems to me that by picking three zones that each of them including a condo Community it's it's picking the maximum amount of people that are going to be affected we have 112 units here and only a 67% uh voting to change the uh bylaws and I also had the concern about the person who talked about zombie buyers I brought this up with um someone on the planning board before John um you could get eight um developers working together um to buy out 75 units here I believe that would be 67% and they could just take it over now maybe that that's really unlikely but the threat hanging over us all of us in these condo communities is is really difficult um and trying to minimize the developability develop I'm not saying that right you know being able to develop our condos but again I just want to say it puts more people at risk of disrupting their lives in a significant way and as much as I love um undeveloped land with maybe trees and vegetation on it I am really wondering if um something should be Revisited so that so many people aren't disrupted thank you thanks Sharon Cheryl do you uh Cheryl your hand still raised and Dale uh Dale's iPad hand is still raised is there Cheryl do you have anything to you'd like to say on my um Cheryl Gladstone because on my screen it says my hands lowered I I apologize I can okay try to do it again hang on uh Dale's iPad your hands showing as raised do you have any additional comments you'd like to make mine's showing that it's lowered so no I do not all right thank you so I think for everybody in the board I think it goes uh I um this uh the MBTA community's uh zoning uh challenge has been probably the most difficult challenge since I've been on the board since 2019 uh because it's not something the town has said is in general the will of the town was let's not let's not go do this it's something the state is forced forced upon us so like all the representatives from all the different communities that uh work in our state are voted into our state legislature those votes matter uh and they voted this law in effect um and so now we're forced to try to come to a solution so we we're going to put together what we think uh is the best proposal um and we're going to discuss it here in the next in the next bit and it's gonna it's going to go before town meeting and so I encourage everybody on this call I encourage you to get your friends any of your neighbors I en encourage anyone to attend town meeting I think attending being part of your the local kind of government process at town meeting is extremely beneficial for the the will of the town so I encourage everybody to attend um but let me uh before before uh I continue somebody just raised their hand Bill Bill Munch do you want to go okay can you hear me yep okay um yeah Bill Minch 16 waybridge Lane of Indian Brook and U I appreciate all the comments of uh the previously made and I also appreciate all the work that the zoning advisory committee and and the planning board have done to uh confront this issue my one question is is and I'm kind of against this in the spirit I think that the state has kind of put us in a difficult position because I think um I think the intent is to uh you know create more affordable housing throughout the whole state and I think they're just going the wrong way but my one question is is what is um the opinion of um our two Representatives Karen spilka and uh James Arena D Roa have they had any input on this as far as the the town especially if we decide to vote this down will they back us so we don't get these uh any of these fines or or withhold grants and so that's basically my point so I don't they they um so I can answer the last part they don't have any um I would say jurisdiction to to prevent withholding of any grants uh um from my knowledge John John I'm not seeing you on the share screen but are you are you here I'm here do you do you have any additional information like I there's no our Representatives I don't even know if they were our Representatives when this law went into effect this bylaw went into effect um I mean I believe spila was I would have to look at when Arena doosa was elected yeah but they have they'd have they have no bearing uh like they can't prevent anything from happening or like to my knowledge not unilaterally as members of the general court they have a vote yeah bill does that help help answer your question I don't think we can get a definitive um yes um yeah in fact I was thinking of um I've had some previous conversations with uh James Arena D Roa not on this subject so I can contact him and kind of get his take on uh you know what his position is and if you know if we do happen to vote this down if he can defend us you know I just don't want to lose our grants and money but understand everybody else's concerns about you know the the property you know having potential eminent domain or you know taken the point of us um but that's pretty much it yeah thanks for uh yeah thanks for listening to me I love that idea I think everybody on this call email Senator spilka and representative Rita doosa if you feel like you're in an effective Community ask them to pass a moratorium it says the state cannot form an eminent domain action or Force MBTA communities zones to construct anything email them right now that' be awesome it is a it's a very valid point emailing your uh and contacting your representative about your will uh does cause action so I encourage that as well um so as I was saying I think I think we need to put together uh like what we're going to do here so my opinion is um I kind of agree with some of the comments uh um some of the the the people made about the land with carbonis and the residences uh next to carbonis um I don't love the proposals with those Parcels of land um and so that kind of rules out two proposals the only proposal that remains is a an expanded downtown and Indian Brook um and I actually uh this is why I asked John I think this question leading into this meeting I like the idea of down like a the non-expanded downtown so a smaller version of downtown uh Walcott Valley and The Preserve that would be my preference of parcels that are have been discussed and debated um but I'll open up to the board so I guess my my thinking is we would do like it might require us doing this at our next meeting to vote if if people agree but that would be my preference um but I'm open to anybody on the board having any comments and uh we can go from there go ahead Matthew so what was your proposal sorry it's it's the three condominiums in downtown no no no it's uh walcot Valley which is the condo association near downtown the smaller version of the downtown district and The Preserve have we run those numbers like we've run the numbers like as individual Parcels as part of the other three plans but we haven't run them as a as a total uh as a singular plan so we've got the numbers I think make uh add up and they can add up um so I the one thing I would say is one of the things I came up at town meeting was people wanted pute other op another option was what was one of one of the comments um I I think it's worth highlighting at addel town meeting that only one of these was necessarily validated by the state and I'm I do worry that some people might have concern or make a decision based on what we've already had approved um so I think it's worth providing that context as well um and so I think the idea of having two options is something we should consider okay anyone else on the board Michael go ahead yeah I was going to second that too I think having you know a few options that people can you know potentially choose between a town meeting would be beneficial to getting and compliance the chair uh Karen go ahead yeah so I would is there any opportunity to probably not but I'm just going to throw it out there um to do yet another another plan and one of the things I heard and I appreciated the gentleman I don't remember his name that was on the or maybe it was Ted that did the um that was on the the zoning committee um um that there was a lot of that there the sorry apologize so the doing um zoning rezoning some of the commercial land like around South Street would potentially cause traffic issues or would potentially impact the tax base so you know so we're kind of weighing one potential against the potential of the current residents of hop content like those at The Preserve or those at the other um condo things so it's kind of like you know do we think the potential of the commercial real estate is more important than the potential downside of for the the current residents and I'm just is just question of I don't know whether we could even go back and do anything like that I so I I don't I don't know I I don't think we have time but let so the concern with so I think there's some confusion the zoning advisory committee was generally concerned with the traffic situation of Golden Pond so that's that's right on West that traffic is a concern for the commercial so I think the I think the concern with cell Street was twofold is you'd be like if if a commercial property was built into residences it'd be it'd basically be reducing the potential for industry at that location and it would uh and if that happened it would add School AG children which would add in potentially to people's uh property tax bills and would also eliminate the possibility of commercial tax revenue from those properties um the traffic on Cell Street I don't know if that was a concern Ted do you do you have anything sure through the chair um the primary concern about South Street was it would be very appealing to developers it might not be a very difficult purchase for developers and yes then it would very quickly lead to press more pressure on the schools um and loss of potential commercial tax base there was talk about traffic on South Street but it was a tertiary or whatever the word is for fourth or fifth concern down the road um the primary concern was it would be very appealing to the developers of condos or apartments and that would put a lot of pressure on the town we also heard very loudly in clearly from the Chamber of Commerce how much they were not in favor of switching anything on South Street over to something that could be developed for residential thank you that makes that makes sense I appreciate that sure uh Matthew go ahead thanks Rob um I I I definitely recognize and hear a lot of stress from a lot of people that are in these these areas that we're notify that their areas are being considered the and that are definitely citizens of Hopkinton that we want to minimize stress and effect that extending the options they have for zoning would be but this I don't any decision we make will have an impact on the citizens of opinon regardless of where it is right we're we're defining the Zoning for the entire town and in the future potentially impacting and possibly the near future depending on if we pick undeveloped plant impacting tax base construction traffic Etc so any choice we make will impact the citizens of Hopkinson and our job is to figure out what which of those will be the have the least detriment or the most positive effect we can't avoid having an impact though yeah I totally agree Matthew I go back to what I said at the beginning is I don't think anyone on this board or anybody in hopkington was looking to find a a way to increase zoning to this extent uh for housing uh and this MBTA communities bylaw has been forced upon us at the state level so we're trying to do our best but nobody here was saying before that uh hey let's go let's go try to do this that wasn't that's not that's not true um so we're just trying to do the best we can with what we've been given um but yeah there's there's no in my opinion there's no no um there's no plan that if it got approved that if it got approved or not approved would have would not impact the town in one way or another whether it's a plan is approved or plan is not approved I see it impacting the town and it's up to people at town meeting to decide how they want to vote Vic go ahead yep um I just want to add that you know from a tax point of view whether it's commercial or residential is the same there's not much of a difference uh so most of our assessment as part of zoning board uh we've taken consideration into the traffic and as the others where Matthew and Rob but you already touched out that it should always have positive impact if something happens not that to enforce or take selectively or a planned thing that you only these resistance has to be captured or something like that so it's just more of a calculated well discussed well debated opportunities what we bought it up front however I I think there's one point which called out with one of our participants out here saying that you know did we check any individual uh single family homes uh when we started debating it across yes we did look at it couple of uh single family homes and the impact of it uh but that was also taken consideration that's all I just want to call it so um just to be kind of uh transparent I don't love the idea of putting together multiple proposals for town meeting I think on the town meeting floor any Resident can make an a motion to amend the article and then that amendment can be voted on and then the amendment can be voted on and it can get quite complex um multiple options put forward make that process even more complex uh but obviously we're bored so I will do what the board wants to do uh any other comments through the chair go ahead John um Dale's iPad's hand is raised again I've lowered it a couple times and it's just been raised again I don't know if Dale is trying to make a comment do want going to allow them to talk yeah go ahead let's see nope I'm I'm trying to keep it lowered and it just keeps going up and down up and down I am so sorry me and Technology are pretty horrible all right uh what is the member of of the bo what does the members of the board think of my uh my proposal Jane go ahead I um in the beginning of this conversation many months ago I thought it might be a good idea to put two proposals together and I think because there wasn't a really clear answer but hearing your most recent proposal Rob I think that that seems to me um the most probable right now because it would I think those units making them small including the new uh potential growth that's going to go in downtown those three things would probably make it less attractive for a developer to come in and be able to buy up all those properties even some of them so I would be in favor right now with going your with your newest proposal which would be the number four I guess all right thanks Jane uh Michael go ahead yeah I mean you know I just want to make sure we have you know options so we can you know get something approved and get us in compliance but um based on everything oh sorry I just gonna say one more thing Rob then you can go based on everything we uh you know talked about with carbonis I would say we should take that out of all the options or the single option that we put forward yeah thanks I think any land areas that we know um that we've done the our homework on we would know like of of all this Parcels in this on these Maps we've done kind of our homework to know like how many units could be built let the land areas so like if somebody proposes uh I don't know some some land that's not like not like I said if somebody tries to make an amendment at town meeting to include um I don't know any land area like Hopkin and country club like anything like we we we can't prepare for every parcel and every combination of parcels uh to know how that would impact any Maps um so I I don't I don't really know what to do in that case uh but that is uh completely possible go ahead Lucia in terms of carbonis I'm wondering um why it was included in the original proposal if it's the case that it's you know easily developable um and I was wondering if Ted or Vic since he's on Zack could speak to that Ted do you wanted to give it a shot uh sure it was a long long time ago um but here's what I think is true it it is uh quite possible maybe probable that Mr Weiss Manel raises some good points so I I will concede those points what we know is carbonis does has a significant amount of wetlands around it it does not have access to um sewer it does not have access to water um and those seem to us to be pretty significant hurdles when it comes to whether it did get developed we liked its proximity to the Southborough train station that we could have residents walk to the train station encouraging people without cars and that if there was traffic that was created it was most likely going to lead northward toward Route 9 not into our downtown area so we really liked what if it were developed and we didn't think it would likely be developed anytime soon we liked what it might do to pedestrian uh public transit and car traffic that's my memory of our discussions thanks Ted Alise go ahead uh if I could just um add on to that I was on Zach when this first came to us sorry um and I believe um it was the I believe the requirements for hopkington were a little bit different when we were first presented with MBTA because they wanted more property to be um closer to this train station and then they came back saying that we were an adjacent community and um and that was later they said we were an adjacent community and that the land could be you know in different areas but I think at first when we were first presented with this we were trying to pick Parcels of land close to the train station that's part of why carbonis was one of the first proposed places too yeah this it's definitely the case there was when the bylaw or first came about there was vagueness on the requirements um and it was unclear when this first came to Hopkinton to the zoning advisory committee if it was going to be um required to be within uh a distance of the train station or not but obviously over time they they solidified their requirements and and said for an adjacent Community it didn't have to be within a certain radius a certain distance of the train station go ahead Matthew yeah so by the time it got to the planning board last year though I think we had we had got that clarification even though it's probably one of the reasons we were originally looking at it um from memory I think some of the reasons we ended up picking it was it it made sense with the the spirit for the reasons that Ted just mentioned um if it were to be developed and it also kept the parcels close together and and smaller and it just made more sense for where it was in the town compared to where else we were looking at the time thanks mat reasons and Transit anyone else have any comments so John I'm at the point where I I don't know what I can um do in this meeting like I wantan to I want to move uh I want to entertain a motion to like consider my proposal but um I don't know if we need to notify uh a Butters or in in the next for our next meeting so you only need to make a motion to close a public hearing or make a recommendation a town meeting you don't need to make a motion to consider a new proposal what was the the last part to make a recommendation to town meeting but we we need to State what the recommendation is right right so you don't if you want to evaluate your proposal at the next hearing you don't need a motion for that you just continue the hearing to the next meeting but if you're looking to recommend the proposal that you are proposing um then you would take a motion to recommend that proposal to town meeting for either adoption or defeat or you can make a motion for two proposals and uh the recommendation of the planning board to pass one and not the other all right so after I make after I say this uh we can have discussion but I'd like to entertain a motion um that the planning board recommend The Preserve Walcott Valley and the smaller downtown district as the MBTA Community districts for at our special town meeting so through the chair does that motion mean that the planning board would recommend Town meaning adopt that proposal as the zoning yes that's my intent is there any discussion before we uh get a somebody move the motion or second yeah I me I don't think we have like I think we should see the the numbers and run a model with that before we decide to propose it okay yeah I mean we just want to make sure it conforms I think right we want to try to move something that's like slightly short can we get those numbers before our next meeting John you can get it you can get them for next meeting next meeting next is next Monday yeah okay so I think that's what I'd like to do I I'd like and um before we uh before we adjourn for tonight is there any other what's the kind of if we take a straw poll what are people's sentiment on having two proposals I I'm I've voiced my kind of concerns but uh why why don't I just go around and we'll take a straw pole of of your sentiment Elise what do you think should we have a second should we just go with a singular proposal that could be amended or should we try to put forward two proposals I'm sort of on the fence here because like you mentioned earlier I feel like anything at town meeting can go any direction um but that being said we've heard a lot of residents who are in the areas who are very unhappy and I think to be more fair to people we should give them a choice or an option instead of just telling them one thing I kind of I my it's kind of um I kind of look at it as pitting neighbors against neighbors where some people live in one uh or live in or near one parcel of land versus the other um which I don't love either yeah I I I get it uh Parker what do you think I thought you were gonna go in the order of voting I I I I was but then I you were just next to at least on my screen uh I mean listen I'm a my trade is sales and I put forward two options sometimes three I would call it good better best um you know I I think the risk is that people get confused and you know on the floor people are asking are we talking about plan one modification of section it's just going to be a nightmare and people are going to say is it the second property on plan two or the third prop it's going to be all over the place and I think looking around a corner um I think we make a decision and based on it the logic associated with the decision and the decision as was alluded to earlier was we were trying to go with something that was going to be in the spirit of the law which if there was going to be construction with carbon in the future then it would be by property I think we've since come to a conclusion I think the consensus is is paper compliance and if that is the consensus of the board then paper compliance and mitigating any construction but staying in compliance with the law is the Benson proposal of today um we stand firm with that uh otherwise I think we open up confusion um and that's that's my thought all right thanks Parker uh Vic what do you think uh I would like to go with one proposal the only reason as parer and and the team identified that that might create confusion the idea behind when it was came to the zoning board was that zoning board gives three options to planning board and planning board would select one uh but if we are taking three multiple options rob you rightly put it's bitting one each other neighbors and that's not what we are here as in a good spirit we want to give the best for the town so my V is to go with one proposal luciao what do you think um I think if we were to move forward with two proposals they would have to be two very different proposals so it would have to be one proposal is addressing these concerns this proposal is addressing these concerns or this proposal is the best because of this these reasons and this proposal is the best because of these reasons so if we can do that I feel like that is something that special town meeting can decide um that's my feeling all right thank you Karen yeah I think Lucia pretty much took the words out of my mouth um they would have if we did two they would have to be completely different because I I do agree with what you were saying rob they it can't be pitting neighbor and against neighbor you know one one group against another depending on who's voting but um I really like I like Lucia's um opinion of they if they were completely different and we could clearly um State you know what uh what concerns each one was addressing and and leave it up to the town to decide um if we don't have time or the ability to create um well say we go with yours for one Rob and then if we don't have time to create a second one that's radically different then I would say say let's keep it simple and just go with one and give it to the town and see what happens thanks Karen and Jane do you have anything you kind of said one proposal but do you have anything else to add I think at this point it might be very difficult to come up with something very different in um because all the other basically they all you know the other option would probably be back to including carbonis which would add the risk of um you know development and bringing in more school children I think you know we need to keep in mind uh the I think the priority for a lot of us was paper compliance by not including the option of um not developing not an offer to um an opportunity to develop something new like [Music] carbonis um although at the time that was a very good option very appealing at the time but I think Ken wise mantle added a great deal to tonight's discussion and uh thank you Ted for reminding us of all of the research that's gone into it so far in all of our discussions over the last couple of years but somehow we can um explain that and demonstrate that to Folks at town meeting either through charts or you know um kind of explaining it through paper form um so people can have something as a backup when they're voting on these things and it is difficult um because we're seeing you know dissension among neighborhoods and that's a the very last thing any of us ever wanted besides um offering an opportunity to develop and risking more school kids in in our systems I don't know what another option would look like to tell you the truth at this point we've kind of hashed over everything thanks Jane it's worth a chance Matthew go ahead thanks yeah the the two things that come to mind are that it a lot of people at town meeting probably haven't been folling around with all the options and listening to people go to town meeting and say like we want options um providing them two different options might help address a little of of that and at least make it clear that we know we thought of different things um I I'm curious what people think would radically different um since we have the the downtown in all of our Solutions and I don't all of our options I don't think we want to get rid of that um the other um the other other thought uh escapes me now all right that's all for now all right uh John I see eigor r on our attendees raised his hand thank you uh IG again 49 Forest Lane uh just a bit of kind of reminder of History here um last time preser Community was up on the B it went up in arms effectively they invoked whoever they could invoke and they have defeated the proposal I know that because I was a part of the process um if it is uh up on the ballot again then they same thing would repeat again so whichever option you folks choose just like bear in mind that this time around they will also have the additional argument that this is the proposal that was already defeated so why are we looking at this again I think anyone at Town me that attends town meeting should uh vote and I think everyone in town that uh is able to come to town meeting should come to town Mee meeting um I don't have anything else to add to that so so what I'd like to do is as uh I think several people recommended consider the the numbers and the calculations of those three Parcels for our next meeting the only question is do we have anything else about the other ones on uh our agenda that we notice people um in the other areas and if we did want to consider option more than one option we should notice people as best uh like according to our rules um through the chair go ahead John it is too late to notify any people any new Butters before all right so okay so but we we can run the numbers and we can vote on The Proposal we should be able to vote on The Proposal I put forth cuz all those people have been notified so I think I've sent Town Council an email to confirm that all right perfect so I think that's what I'd like to do I'd like to continue this to the next meeting get the calculations for those three parcels and um and then we'll have our vote next week I think Ted's okay go ahead Rob I don't know I don't know if I need to say my name again Ted Barker hook 75 Grove Street I don't know if it's my place to speak up I am not on the planning board um but here's what I think I heard tonight um just to throw it out there we looked at three different proposals two of which um included carbonis and my sense of the will of the planning board is that we'd like to remove carbonis so okay one of the proposals included keeping The Preserve and we heard a lot of concern frustration from the people in The Preserve another proposal included walcot Valley and we heard a lot of question and concern from people in walcot Valley the Benson proposal as I understand it is a proposal that includes both The Preserve and Walcott Valley where we heard a great deal of concern we Al had a proposal that had the Indian Brook Apartments where we heard if I remember correctly questions for clarification but not a tremendous amount of concern from Indian Brook residents and yet that is not a proposal that's being considered right now and I just and I know you're not voting on a proposal or proposals tonight but I wanted to speak up just to question the wisdom of putting in one proposal the two properties that generated the most concern and saying this is our proposal that's all I wanted to throw out and and again I maybe I'm speaking out of place as not a member of the planning board but um given the work that Zach did um I thought it might be worth throwing that out there for you guys to consider thanks Ted Michael go ahead yeah I mean I I'm I'm just gonna say I was kind of thinking you know I understand the you know the thought behind it but that proposal would be defeated it's got no chance of passing so you know the thought behind doing multiple ones was you know to give us a at least a chance to be compliant so you know that was kind of the reason behind that I get the confusion you know Parker made a good point there' be a lot of confusion you know having multiple proposals and showing multiple Parcels up on a map a town meeting but you know still think we kind of have to keep the ability alive to be compliant with this law from the state so I I don't necessarily agree with that but uh go ahead Parker I I didn't think you would uh I don't know man I think at this point you know it's uh to maybe it is two proposals I'm I'm willing to admit I'm wrong and maybe is right we do in Brook Carbones downtown or preserve Walcott downtown and and the two factors are here's the growth plan which hey do you want your property taxes to go up in 10 years because there's going to be a lot of growth we have to maybe build more schools that's one option and the other side is the paper compliance and what let people choose through the chair go go ahead Ted maybe I remember wrong Indian Brook did not require carbonis it was Indian Brook and downtown was one option yep that's right oh you're right option two thank you yep Matthew go ahead yeah I me we're looking at completely different like the options one and two seem like candidates and basically we're giving people the option of something that's been approved by the state and is highly likely to pass and fits the spirit as we interpret of the the uh zoning guidelines um or something that or something different thanks Matthew all right we've been we've been discussing this for two hours and 20 minutes I'm gon to take these next two uh hands raised and we're gonna we're GNA we're gonna move to the next meeting Kathy go ahead Kathy you're muted there you go can you hear me now yep oh this is Kathy from 20 turn Bridge Lane um Indian Brook and there is a lot of concern sorry we just need a last name too pardon oh Kathy L and there is a lot of concern within the community um I don't know why there Wen more questions but we do have a lot of questions you did answer a lot of them um the concern is too uh again where do we go um we're on the lower uh Real Estate Value in the town all around every surrounding Town everywhere there's no place to go so we're building units for people for places to live but we're putting other people out and there's nothing in place to help us thank you thanks Cathy uh Ken wise Mantle go ahead one of the things you might want to research in the next week is whether a an amendment at town meeting with a different map would be considered by the moderator as within the four corners of the article you may not be able to amend the map because you would not be warning the people which is what the warrant does of what is going to be discussed at town meeting so you may be very limited as to where you can maybe make some minor wording changes but swapping out one condo from another at town meeting I think would be not within the four corners but then again it's up to the town moderator to make that decision thank you oh and by the way I agree with Ted Barker Hook's concerns on his on his on his political judgment on that he is uh probably right thanks Ken Matthew go ahead thanks yeah I mean Kim raises a good point that we've discussed before is that we just can't as John's answer to this in the past as I recall we just can't run the models in real time so I think if we're going to give people options we need to have those options prepared and come with them um and not expect amendments to be made Beyond uh a minimal scope on the town floor for this to be meaningful I I think Ken's question is valid I I was so I guess uh so I'm not Town moderator but uh my assumption was that any parcel within uh Hopkin would be within the four corners of the article but I do think it's worth checking with the town moderator ahead of time and getting their interpretation because they that's their job they are the moderator um let's go to Ellen the chair to address that point Y um so is my understanding that you can't just pick a parcel at town meeting and add it because that owner has not been properly notified that their parcel would be included in an action at town meeting so the question is these Parcels that have already been notified but are part of a different proposal can they be recombined to a new proposal um but I can tell you pretty certainly that if somebody were to go up to the floor at town meeting and recommend mend including a parcel that hadn't even been considered in the first place that would be outside of open meeting law because the owner would not have been notified that town meeting would be considering their parcel for a zoning change thanks John Ellen uh Ellen your hand is raised hi thank you um I just wanted to express that Indian Brook is here we maybe haven't spoken up because all of the things that we wanted to say have been expressed by others um we are concerned um I think that you know we any of these options do Pit neighbor against neighbor and that's a bit unfair um it also should the unlikely event of developers coming in to look at any of these Parcels um we are governed by volunteer boards who while there are some guard rails on how many units would need to be sold and how many could be sold to an individual um we are ill prepared to um to police that and we would be um disproportionately affected should developers come in and want to you know and and whether it happens five years 10 years 30 years this really disproportionately affects the owners who would be out of our homes compared to spreading ill effect of more housing across all of the town so I just wanted to say Indian Brook is here and I hope that my neighbors will show up at town meeting to vote as well it's not just The Preserve and Walcott who don't like being targeted for acquisition thanks Ellen vayah go ahead I think VI you on mute hi um can you hear me yep yes this is Mrs Sunder I'm from um Leman Lane Indian Brooks so Indian Brooks is here while we respect the spirit of you know welcoming whatever the state is requesting us and being compliant to it but I think it's really not in the spirit of displacing almost 100 homes and trying to build something and welcome you know additional families in the neighborhood to the um you know board my request would be identify something which is vacant which can be you know compliant in order to include in The Proposal thanks vayia so for tonight um we're gonna we're going to end here at 9:30 3 minutes uh so what I'd like to do is add the proposal as a fourth option for our next meeting our next meeting we're going to vote on including one two one two three or four options and that's what we're going to uh go forward with at town meeting that's we can't as John said we don't have enough time to notice a Butters or land owners of any new land um for potential proposal um and so that's that's what I think our plan should be unless there's any other comments I'd like to um I'm ready to adjourn for this evening unless anyone has any last uh last comments so Matthew go ahead do we need to was this is a public meeting do we need to continue I don't think because it's yes public hearing need to continue okay I'd like I'd like to entertain a motion to continue the public hearing to to November 4th so second thanks uh let me get my sheet Alise smosi how do you vote Yes Luccia Lopez yes Matthew Rona yes Michael King yes ha yes Jane Moran yes Karen Wills yes vicaso pry yes and Rob Benson is yes and at this time I'd like to entertain a motion to adjourn for this evening so moves second thanks thanks Parker thanks Vic uh Alise meowski yes Lucia Lopez yes Matthew Rona yes Michael King yes Parker ha yes Jane Moran yes Karen Wills yes vicaso prati yes and Rob Benson is yes thanks everybody for attending thanks for the conversation and uh I'll see everybody in a week from tonight