##VIDEO ID:_Bb2Pehk5DM## when we do roll call and if I call on you for chat okay thank you sure Steve I can change your name good evening Ron always good to see you good evening Arnold through the chair you're live on hcam TV thank you Bob good good evening we got one two three and I make four Vic makes five uh I think Sam said he could not make it if I remember seeing that email Curtis was just in design riew board with me 10 minutes ago and he said he was joining okay so we'll give him a moment then and then I think we're good to go I think you said sudip has not been sworn in yet yes uh sravan sravan do you know if he's planning to join uh yep and he just signed on oh beautiful so we'll just give Curtis a moment I just want to know how John keeps all these different models in his brain I have many many many tabs open on my computer my understanding is AI was designed looking at John's [Laughter] memory waiting on Curtis svan welcome to the zoning advisory committee am I pronouncing your first name correctly s sravan was that a thumbs up I got I looked down hi sorry I was unmute yes yes that's good yes all right we're just waiting on one more member who we expect to come before we get rolling we won't wait to we can do some intro stuff too so we won't wait too much [Music] longer all right I'm going to start reading the script we have enough to start and hopefully Curtis will jump in Cur just joined beautiful I will wait for just a moment then so he doesn't feel out good evening Curtis welcome thank you all right let's get this meeting going pursuant to chapter two of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means in accordance with all with applicable law this means that members of the public body as well as members of the public May access this meeting via virtual means participants May access this meeting through the remote meeting link is post on the meet as posted on the meeting agenda and through the town's online calendar when required by law or Allowed by the chair persons wishing to provide public comment or otherwise participate in the meeting May do so by raising their hand or otherwise signaling their intent to speak this meeting will be recorded please take care to mute your microphone unless you have been recognized by the chair also and John if you have any done this we will be disabling the chat feature um right now I don't see any members of the public but if they pop in uh the chat feature is not helpful or conduct conducive to a good zoom meeting we found um so any and all comments will be spoken um we will now confirm attendance of all members including a welcome to new members please respond with present if you are on this call my name is Ted Barker hook and I am the current chair of the zoning advisory committee Ron Foy present Arnold Cohen president Sam Sedar absent uh welcome to new member Steve Cony president Vic pry present there you go Curtis Smithson pres and svan Krishna pres welcome we have one other member who has not been sworn in yet we'll save that reveal for next time uh and staff John guch pres great um John and I were we chatting ahead of time we're hoping that this meeting will be um expedient that we can move along but we certainly want to leave room for all discussion that feels necessary and appropriate we have one agenda item tonight and it is to take a look at where we are with the MBTA communities um zoning and the two new ideas that we are putting together I don't know if members have been able to watch planning board hearings um and Vic if I misrepresent the planning board um please let me know but um both from the last time I saw the planning board discuss this and we had several planning board members besides Vic at our last meeting it sounds like they would be happy if we passed along one or two new proposals that they will consider alongside our original proposal which failed at town meeting back in May um we do have two proposals that we asked John to look into and John has some results to share with us and then we'll get a chance to talk about them after John shares what he sees so John help us out all right so what would be most beneficial looking at the map first or looking at the summary table first my preference is always to look at the map I'm kind of a visual map guy I don't know if I speak for everyone but right now you guys chose me to be chair so it look like Ron agreed with me he likes the map first too I follow the chair so for those of you who might be unfamiliar with the process this is the original map uh that was presented to annual town meeting that was voted down it included The Preserve the carbonis property and then the two adjacent um properties and then a downtown district so that is potentially being considered for a uh an article before town meeting that would present two options that would allow town meeting to choose one of the two um so that's the first option the so John really quickly and that is not really part of our discussion tonight but it's helpful for context uh I mean Zach could recommend just moving one proposal forward and not the one that was recommended for town meeting uh in May so if Zach wants to move that one forward I would recommend to planning board in your motion that you would want to move that and another one forward so that there were two so it's I kind of thought my my understanding from their discussion was they believe that one was already on the table but if I don't believe that is um the shared understanding of all planning board members okay all right so we will discuss that then tonight my apologies for misunderstanding and for interrupting right all right quite all right all right so the second one so this is another one that was um discussed at Zach so this includes the Indian Brook condos which are on Elm Street um and then you've got the downtown area that has been slightly expanded in order to get a little bit more land area and you can see that over here so the expansion really resulted in uh this parcel over here some two Parcels over here and I believe that actually might be it um so just slight expansion get a little bit more area uh for the consideration and then the third proposed District or third proposed map is the Walcott Cedar Street um downtown expanded District which includes the upper Cedar Street area not including The Preserve so preserve has been left out but it includes the carbonis and the two adjacent Parcels Walcott Valley Condominiums and then the downtown area which was expanded uh so few other Parcels included in that so those are the three proposals and we can get into I'm going to try and change my settings apologize if I can get all these things as tabs I can just bring it up instead of stopping sharing my screen to get every different one up just need to find out where that is take your time John I need two more minutes so I can come back to my computer and see watch that you got to Vamp John even if you can find them I found it Vic oh you are faster than me and a semi unrelated question but I know there's a proposal is it before planning now for that Downtown Development at the corner where the drug story is yes application yes is under the old zoning yes okay I was just I couldn't I couldn't recall whether that had mooved forward or was just uh it is it has been applied for before the planning board um it has not gone before the planning board okay they are scheduled for um Monday but I don't believe they are going to be able to make it so it will likely be continued I think though that they clear Fe the historical commission hurdles I believe uh maybe possibly all right sorry Vic all right so uh for those of you who are unfamiliar with this as well uh I'll try and get these in the same order that we had them pres in the maps this is uh the summary sheet from the model that the state produced that we input the data they give us the GIS maps or the gis shape files we take the data that of the district that we're creating take the information from their GIS shape files input it into this and then put in some other parameters to determine compliance with the bylaw or the law uh as they have these certain requirements and it's um District size density across uh the whole district and subdistricts and then unit capacity so this is the original that was proposed before town meeting that was voted down and included the upper Cedar Street district and the downtown district you had a unit capacity of 814 we were required to have at least 750 the uh required density of across the entire um district has to be 15 units per acre we were at 17.2 and this number the district acreage needs to to be above 50 so we're at 58.4 this lower uh number does not hinder us on that account they are just looking for the district acreage not the D District density denominator um I can go into all those details about what that is if you'd like but I feel like this committee is pretty well versed in that information so this is the one that was put before town meeting that was voted down and I would say just to make sure that version of upper Cedar Street includes The Preserve correct because I think on another summary sheet you still call it upper Cedar Street but that's without The Preserve correct and we can change the name of that if that would be confusing uh those were just pulled because that's where it is Indian Brook uh we meet the 15 units per acre we meet the 50 acres but we are one unit shy of the 750 so this could be easily fixed by changing one of the parameters in the zoning table um to up the density in either the downtown or the um sorry I'm trying to get to my window and my zoom is constantly just jumping over it not letting me click on it so if we were to take uh the Indian Brook and change the parameters to modify the maximum density so actually the uh so as it currently stands this this summary sheet the density for downtown is already at 17 units per acre and then the density for um Indian Brook is at 15 units per acre so if we were to bump up the density of Indian Brook to 16 units per acre we would be at 782 units as a unit capacity if we were to change that back to 15 and bump downtown to 18 units per acre we would be at 771 units what does the current zoning downtown allow as far as density so there's no density that is written into the bylaw it's um basically how you design the site and then um how many units you can fit on that site at three floors three stories do you have no maximum what realistically that might be it would depend on how a site is designed yeah it's it's really tough to say without any kind of without this model being done okay yeah all right so that is the Indian Brook option and then looking at the Walcott downtown and upper Cedar without The Preserve you are at uh 754 units 19 units per acre and 51.7 Acres so you're just above the required amount and uh let me just make sure with this one we're at the density so for this one to get to 754 all districts are at 16 units per acre so the Walcott subdistrict the downtown subd district and the upper Cedar Street uh subd District are all at 16 units per acre but that gets us to 754 so if we reduce the density in one of these districts we would fall below the the unit capacity we could lower one and raise the other but we can we'd have to play with it and I can do that now if you if you want I I have a different question um we can play with it sure 754 is meets the the standard how nervous would you be John with a 754 hoping that the state says yeah you're right this is measured correctly I mean I know we're plugging in their model but are there any variables that we might be missing it's hard to say I mean if I knew we were missing them I would have fixed them right yeah okay so so you know with the with the timeline that we have we can't send it to the state for verification I will say we have basically just taken the one that the state said would be approvable and change the districts right and change the numbers so we haven't really made a wholesale change to the design of the model it's just plugging in different Parcels so there is the possibility that it could be short I would hope I would hope the if we passed this version for example and the state did their review and it came back as non-compliant because it was 745 units we would be able to get a stay of any kind of enforcement to then bring something before annual town meeting to modify the district in a way that would bump us above that level if that's true ex maybe change the density again exactly right John um it's 750 units am I right that's what I the requirement is 750 units okay thank you it's a minimum density of 15 units perer we can exceed that which is sounds like what we're doing yes and in in the original so in the original you'll see that the downtown district had a density of 12.5 but the over all density was over 15 and that's the only thing that matters the overall density being over 15 right I had I had a question relative to this calculation and what you know the state is mandating so when we set aside and and do this calculation you know based on you know so much acreage set aside is does that assume basically gross area that we have available and what I'm saying is in net you know depending on the conditions of the site or whatever is it possible we could have actually much less buildable area in order to to meet that standard or do they care one way or the other yep so uh that's a great question um that's actually what the district density denominator indicates uh so they they in their density denominator they take out publicly owned land because you technically can't build on publicly owned land right because of the Hoops that they would have to jump through does not include St Wetland areas uh it does not include other environmentally protected areas so what we'd be looking at is basically 47.2 acres of developable land even though there's 58.4 acres of land as a whole thank you could I ask and maybe we dealt with this months ago does that include uh buffer zones of wetlands and does that only include the state's buffer zone requirements or hopkinson's I would imagine it only includes the resource area and any other state regulated areas it would not dive into the local because then that would be them creating a model for every local bylaw yeah do you anticipate that that could create a problem given that uh our Town's um conservation restrictions are are stricter than the state no because um conservation and Zoning are mutually exclusive so State really can't pass a zoning law that requires a town to pass a zoning bylaw that also then factors in a wetland bylaw just like historic protections still exist uh under MBTA communities um Wetlands protection still exists all those things are still applicable and exist um as they as they are okay um I I just want to be sure John are you done with your initial this is what we found yeah unless there's any other I don't think there's really any reason to go through the actual language of the bylaw it's pretty much the same the only things that would be changing unless Zach wanted to change them uh change other things so the only things that would be changing are the um dimensional requirements for each subd district the details of each subdistrict and those types of things that are pretty easy to to change out uh once Zach has decided I'll probably just if we decide on two different Maps I would just create two different bylaws that go with those two different Maps okay that's kind what I thought I just wanted to make sure we weren't cutting you off too early with questions yep so I guess what I'm interested in hearing now gang is uh I would like to put for now the originally approved town meeting voted on map aside I would love to hear discussion of pros and cons the other two maps uh and hear what you guys think through the chair sure go ahead um I I think the second option would be a good complimentary option to the original one that we did which doesn't have any of that uh Cedar Street parcel on it so just the downtown section and Indian Brook and as John suggested tweaking one of the acreages up a little bit to get us over that 750 Benchmark can you share would you be willing to share Ron why you prefer that one over the wallot valley just differentiation between the two two things I mean keeping the keeping option number one just presenting again the option that we did at the Maytown meeting has that Cedar Street upper Cedar Street portion on it Y and the uh the Indian Brook one with downtown does not have any of that upper Cedar Street on it so that's a differentiator the third model we've got a we've got bits of both in there okay all right CH just want to reconfirm do we need to have a local Transportation on the areas which we allocate as mbda like the Metro uh bus service which is John correct me if I'm wrong but because we're in a adjacent Community we don't have anything that says You must be within half a mile of the train station nor do we have anything that says You must be on a bus service um I think our discussions have been this is the whole letter of the law Spirit of the law those kind of things and I think that a lot of our discussions last winter um where the idea that while we didn't want to give a green light to Rapid development in addition to what we've been dealing with uh generally the zoning advisory committee liked the idea of if there is going to be development let's see if we can fit within the idea of using public transportation um and so if I could expand while I think you remember that Vic for the newer members um the thought is that there is the mwrta bus that runs through down town there has been discussion I understand and a push maybe from our rep um to extend the mwrta bus so that it goes up to the Southboro train station that doesn't exist now but that's been kind of part of our discussions because we understand that there is a a will a push to do that which would also make if there is development downtown fit within the spirit of of the MBTA communities act because it would be would invite public transportation use and get Folks up to the train um but none of that is required is my understanding because we're an adjacent community did I do okay on that John yes that is correct the only thing I would add is that um the bus line would not just go to South bro it would actually go all the way up to Littleton and then come down to Milford for my oh really yes yeah a pretty significant um Littleton yeah geez okay well other comments on Indian bro I'm going to I'm going to for our discussion simplify it Indian Brook versus Walcott Valley as the two models we're discussing now did it chair yes please so and forgive me because I'm really trying to catch up here but understand in making these decisions is it our responsibility to sort of look forward in terms of uh these sites and their infrastructure capability you know to support what we might be proposing or or is that just assumed to be looked at you know later by the various boards and so forth um to vet that out so to speak um as I'll try to deal with only with almost every answer I give I'll give an answer and then look to John to see how I did my understanding of our job on the zoning advisory committee uh especially in this case where we're trying at round two at an NBTA communities Act is to pass along to the planning board something that fulfills what they asked us to do and what they've asked us to do is come up with an alternative to the original plan we are supposed to do as much as we can to consider the efficacy of that plan um I think that we are in a agreement with most if not all of the planning board in that we certainly want to be within the law we don't want to be running against the Commonwealth's law risk a lawsuit risk losing funds so that's the first barest hurdle to clear but then beyond that how do we do it in a way that we are not burdened with rapid development um I think generally people agree we want to do it in a way where we are not going to have a lot of more deforestation right away so we've been only looking at already developed properties rather than finding unused Woods um as far as getting as deep as Wells versus Town water where electrical lines are we know some things especially because from our first round we know that the uh sewer and water up on upper Cedar doesn't exist right now and so one of our discussion points when we proposed both The Preserve and uh carbonis and the land just to the north of it was right now they don't have water service sewer or water Pipeline and it was our thought that that would slow development in a way that then the town could if it does get developed it would be down the road and we could absorb it uh and it wouldn't happen right away um I don't think that for this round we asked what does Indian Brook have I don't know if they're on Wells or if they're on Town water I don't know about Walcott Valley either um so we're not going too deep ultimately our only job is to pass something on to the planning board we are not putting anything on the town warrant the planning board ultimately decides what to put on the warrant is that helpful yeah absolutely thank you Ted thank you John was there anything you think I missed uh no nothing you missed I think that was a great answer I would just also add that um because I would imagine this question is going to come up it's not the town's responsibility to provide utilities or infrastructure to these sites to then be developed that would lie solely with the developer and the owner of the land so you know upper Cedar Street if it were to be uh approved the town would not have to run a water line up there for the the developer they would have to do it themselves um and so it's really just kind of what we have in terms of land how it fits into the criteria for MBTA communities and then if it works then it works and everything else is the developers responsibility and even more basically because folks outside of the committee have asked it's also not the town's responsibility to build the the apartments um that would also be a developers responsibility to to buy the land at a price they think works for them and the seller think works for them and then put everything together uh I'm still looking for thoughts and comments um again it's my understanding that while we may I trust John we we maybe probably ought to vote on whether we want the planning board to still consider the first option my understanding of their input is they don't mind two additional options to the first option so if we wanted to push all three along I don't think that goes against what the planning board asked for it might be helpful to them if we decided to rank the two new ones um I don't know if I'm comfortable ranking all three but we could if we wanted to so I'm still looking for what your thoughts are especially on the two that we are now considering not the original I have go just looking at these plans right the upper seeders seems to make more sense uh because of the you know uh the MBTA Transportation uh option closer to the train station it looks like um if that was voted down why wouldn't what is the logic behind the other two options and what is the confidence level that that wouldn't be voted down so here's my answer if you're you're saying the new version of upper Cedar versus the original why why offer upper Cedar again because the big differ is The Preserve not in the newer version okay it's a newer version okay got it okay right the newer version excludes The Preserve and while that wasn't the entirety of the push back to the original plan that was a significant portion of the push back residents of and neighbors of The Preserve um there was some talk about carbonis being more developable than we or the planning board believed it to be um but really the big resistance we heard at town meeting was from the the folks in The Preserve so the rethought upper Cedar Street excludes The Preserve okay thank you and instead puts in Walcott Valley in a slightly bigger downtown area and adjusted densities and those things does that help Vic uh yes and uh just want to add I mean I had I was about to call out but looks like Shan and you raised the same concern which I was about to raise it right now u i was more looking at it that having this the new version with the upper street street and downtown John can you pull that out 754 right was that the number with the this this was the one right yep uh I would say going with this would be might be more easier from my point of view again we might get back to the same if we add Indian Brook the kind of challenging answers what we have it like last time with The Preserve we might run into the same issue with them and the population of Indian Brook is also quite large than what we had it in The Preserve and of course this one could have push back from the folks at wot Valley too that's also that yeah maybe can can we pick it down John as you mentioned that to make these numbers work out a little bit better on this model I'm sorry what you said we can make this numbers workable by tweaking it up and down the you density and the yeah yep so this uh this one is every all the three districts are at 16 units per acre so if like we were to go to 17 for uh the downtown downtown uh subdistrict that would give us a unit capacity of 772 Yep this this sounds little more comfortable enclosure uh High chance of approval for us from the state and I I would guess that could be something the planning board that that's not too much homework for the planning board we could if we wanted to pass this along and then they might say you Vic on the planning board might say guys this seems like a good plan but maybe we want to give ourselves a little more breathing room um whatever we pass along they can certainly tweak or reject um but we could tweak it now and they could tweak it back too that that's a possibility as well I was just more saying that if we can call it out somewhere when we present it to the planning board so it it comes up across to us and the ising us so we don't have an option rather than to just to go and get this done so we just want to make sure what's the best we can get out of it okay the Indian Brook one is the one that came up one unit short and so we would have to tweak density there um I think my if if that was one we wanted to work on my recommendation would be increase the density downtown since that's already under current zoning a possibility so that shouldn't send shock waves if we made that one more uh density allowable that's that's a horrible way to put it hopefully the independent doesn't quote that line whatever it works we just have to get it done my own take for what it's worth is if I had to choose between these two and I know that we have the original plan and I hear what um what um Ron says about a second plan that is significantly different significantly rethought but if I had to rank the two new ones I would prefer this one to the Indian Brook um my biggest concern with Indian Brook being part of it is there is no connection to the MBTA at all and I fear that if there is development that's in a section of town that is already experiencing difficult traffic and I would see the traffic from any new developing there a development there um heading towards uh um 110 Grill and that whole mess of traffic I did for discussion sake take a very quick look at what uh a purchasing a unit would cost in each of the developments walk out Valley um versus Indian Brook in my very quick research um I found two properties for sale in Indian Brook I found two for sale in Walcott Valley the Indian Brook properties each town home is roughly 500,000 550,000 per unit the wcat valley is about $100,000 less I don't know the total number of units in either but I was considering that to consider is one of them more affordable to a developer than the other and it seems like if we are hoping for no development in the near future Indian Brook might be a harder purchase but I'm not a developer but but I wanted to take some of that into account each unit seems to be more expensive at Indian Brook and that would be an argument for including Indian Brook if we wanted a model that does not lead to Quick development so I don't I don't know if any of that is helpful to you or if you have thoughts on those thoughts no I agree with you does make sense actually what you the mainly is the traffic yes that's been a biggest pain right now with the Indian Brook side of it um walk at Val from a costing point of you and also proximity to the MBTA this is more suitable actually and since again unless I'm misreading but you haven't corrected me on this Vic and you've been in the planning board meetings they are comfortable with three plans at this stage um but it might be helpful if we decided here's how we would rank them and then they can chew on that and maybe we can give some this is why we like this one this is why we like this this is why we like this that's right uh that they were more looking for an alternative plan than the original one so yeah given more than one that helps us a lot to further discuss it ranking would definitely help us saying that you know hey this is the recommendation from Zach from based on the ranking yeah and pretty much you'll be there and I'll be there John will be there if they ask why was this ranking c one of us can always fill in that try to summarize them so that would help them so y perfect the chair yes who is that Ron Valley would be um oops sorry r go ahead Curtis we haven't heard from you tonight I was going to say that another I guess con or Pro to the walcot valley would be if if that bus uh route is expanded from Littleton to Milford then all three of these would be on that bus route that would be true of the re considered upper Cedar and downtown grouping yeah in the walcut Valley's just a couple Bo over so you walkable to catch the bus so that might still kind of you know lean toward an advantage there to access to the train station which is what this is all yeah supposed to be leaning toward Ron what one of the things the planning board uh may want to consider is the politics of this whether or not it's it's going to be sailable at town meeting and Ted I think your observation about the Indian Brook uh condos being more expensive would put a higher burden to that being developed and probably would delay it and and I think that would be attractive people who do not want more development in town I I think so too and I also think there's more units there so while I don't know what percentage of tenants would need to agree to sell certainly the raw number is almost certainly higher they'd have to find in order to then sell and develop it so yeah I don't love myself the Indian Brook in in the sense of if there's development is that a good place I don't think so is it less likely to be developed I kind of think so and so I'm a little torn on those two you know are we trying to achieve smart zoning or are we simply trying to achieve delayed development then those two things might be in conflict my personal preferences is we need to just be compliant yeah and get this thing passed yep John did I see your hand pop up yeah so just Counterpoint on that argument um which one the Indian Brook versus Walcott okay Walcott might be cheaper to develop but uh Walcott Valley under this scenario you'd get at Max right if a developer bought it and built as many units as possible 237 units whereas Indian Brook 485 so it might be more expensive but they might be able to offset that with more units that's a good point that I didn't considered at all the purchase price might be higher but the return might make up for it and then some that's a good point and organiz like The Preserve did there's many more units there to come vote against it possibly that's also a good point John is there any chance I know before we got started you said you could find the number of units is that something you could do now or is that a bigger homework job uh that's a question I'm gonna have to ask the assessor okay all right so we'll put that aside and just go with I think we're all in agreement that there seem to be more units at Indian Brook um um I don't ever like putting anybody on the spot but Arnold I don't think we've heard much from you do you have any thoughts and if you don't that's fine my thought is that we should uh present all the plans to the planning board and give them more options I think U tend to think that they like to have uh more options uh you know it's going to be their decision uh there's a lot of variables and all these things and it's really hard for me to predict you know predicting the future and everything else but I I that's that's what I think we ought to do just send them all free but if they wanted a ranking do you have a thought in how you would rank at least the two new ones it would just be uh just be speculation and guessing if I if I were to do that I can't okay all right if you're not comfortable that's fine and um brand new to us uh svin your hand is up I don't know if you have a ranking but feel free to speak so um when when this get presented to the town again for voting would the town get three options to vote on or would they get one selected option to vot on John will certainly correct any mistake again my understanding is the thought is that we can present two options at town meeting so if we were to push three options to the planning board in their discussions they would decide which to throw out and they would bring two to town meeting is the Hope and my understanding is that there's discussions with Town Council and with the town clerk about how to do that legally and properly and cleanly okay but it would not be three options at town meeting I don't think that's being discussed okay so um my ranking would be the original option as number one and the new options right it it's either one it seems about the same to me it's 5050 to you yeah okay I like the original one better Vic thank you so I so Indian Brook has its own website so I've just went to their website they have 112 units which is split among 28 buildings I'm just looking at their online on this so my ranking would be going Ahad valy have a website I yes they do I mean they don't have it but I know that uh I was trying to purchase the what the valuable lot last time so I know that they were around like uh how many around 25 30 or something like individual Town Homes kind of a model which was their W cart so but it's a big lot and uh but yes so my preference would be going with the orinal plan being the second option the first being the wall cut Valley and uh you know upper CH Street I would prefer that as First Option okay so you like removing The Preserve and putting in walcot Valley that would be your favorite Choice yes okay does anyone else want to to think out loud about what else we might not be considering or should we try to put these some preference as a committee vote to pass along last chance for fresh thoughts sure okay um I'm really torn about whether to include the original plan in our rankings um partly because it was our original plan and we thought it through and at the time we looked at the whole town and thought that was the best plan and maybe that ought to speak for itself for the planning board to consider uh we certainly especially if John recommends it can vote on whether we ought to have them still consider the original plan but I think I'm leaning towards whether we choose to still consider the original plan or not to just rank the other two options with the understanding that we believed in the original plan that's why we pushed it along after we considered everything in town is there any opposition to that idea it looks like no silence is Ascent all right so what I think I'd like to do is first let's see if I can get a motion and then a vote on whether we think the planning board should keep the original plan in their consideration John guch am I doing this right um it would I think it would be cleaner to have a discussion if you want to recommend how many you want to recommend all three just two original plan and then make one motion that says that recommendation to the board okay without any ranking no the ranking could be in the the motion so you could say I I would just put everything together so I would say for example if you were to include all three as a recommendation but you wanted it seems like some people are um the original plan then Walcott then Indian Brook the motion would be Zach recommends move forward with the three options prefer I don't know we could think of something the preference of x y and z does everyone I like John's idea and John's got experience in these meetings um does everyone feel comfortable in moving there now in recommending well first so here's what I think I'm going to propose but we're not voting on it yet I will propose a motion to or I will look for a motion to offer the planning board three options and then we will put them in the order that we think is best for best option to least best option before I even get that motion do you guys understand what we're trying to do it looks like yes yes so I I think I've already made the phrasing not very clear uh I would like to entertain a motion to send to the planning board all three overlay maps that were discussing tonight and through and the motion will be that we recommend I'll just throw it out the original plan first Walcott Valley version 2 Indian Brook version third and if that gets voted down we can get a new motion to put them in a different order is that true John or is that still ugly yes so uh I'm just writing the motion as as you uh say it so got recommend the planning Board review the three proposed options with the understanding that the zoning advisory Comm committee um we don't have good names for the plans right now yeah um maybe that's call them the original plan the walcot valley plan and the Indian Brook plan I'm comfortable with that uh I'm trying to think of how how we should word it with the understanding that the zoning advisory committee prefers the original plan then the Walcott Valley plan than the Indian Brook plan John is it prefers or recommends I'm sure not sure I'm sorry what was the question uh do is it should be the recommend uh Zach recommends or do you think Zach prefers that's so the wordings I'm just trying uh so I'm trying to capture the two statements in one motion right you're recommending all three but here's our pref preferred order and if that fails our vote John we can reshuffle them and propose a different right okay so if you don't like that feel free to say no and if it doesn't get a majority we'll reshuffle them or we can go back to a discussion to see if we should be eliminating one of them um but again I'll say I think the planning board is comfortable and happy to have three so uh Steve yeah just just for clarification Ted um did I misunderstand earlier that the the three that were proposing is there a hybrid in there now based on what was discussed earlier are we are we are we taking something off the table so let let me try I I think that what we're calling now the the um Walcott Valley plan is an amended version of the original with the key change it's not the only change but really the most significant change is exchanging The Preserve up on upper Cedar for the walcot valley section there's also some tweaking with a couple other small Parcels included in downtown and John did you say there was some tweaking with the density as well yes yeah but really the key difference is swapping The Preserve for Walcott Valley right and then the Indian Brook plan is kind it still has downtown so that essentially is swapping all the upper Cedar property for the Indian Brook property so Steve it might be easier to see it visually so this is the plan that was put before town meeting in May so it includes The Preserve carbonis and adjacent properties and then a smaller downtown District the Indian Brook would have the downtown district with a couple different Parcels added and then the Indian Brook would get rid of these and then the Walcott Valley would get rid of The Preserve keep these add Walcott Valley and then have the same expanded downtown as the Indian Brook but smaller than the original so if I do that you can kind of see where the downtown changes a little bit yeah and so in summary for me anyway as long as that's being defined and you're going to call it whatever it is now um you know I was okay with the way it was presented in terms of the ranking myself as as you outlined Ted yes you've got the original the Indian Brook and the Walcott Valley yeah so John could you reread and then maybe we can get someone to make that motion sure to recommend the planning Board review the three proposed options with the understanding that the zoning advisory committee prefers the original plan than the wall COV Valley plan than the Indian Brook plan okay so what I'm going to do is we're going to do a roll call vote if you agree with pushing along the three and you like that order of preference you would vote yay I if you don't like the three or don't like that order of preference vote no and we'll continue a discussion everybody yes I didn't hear a motion or a second no I know I'm saying that will be the motion and that's how we'll proceed I don't want anyone to think that this is the end of the discussion if it fails yeah so I'm looking for a motion along the lines of what John just said okay uh so moved and a second second okay here comes our roll call vote point oh yeah sorry could we have some discussion on the motion before we sure sure sure sure I I wanted to uh second Arnold's recommendation that we put forward the first as our preference and the other two as tied the planning board's going to have their own right reasons and rational for ranking one above the other and it just doesn't make sense for us to get into that level of weeds at this level so you know I'm I'm going to be voting no against this okay any other discussion thank you for the point of order Ron we don't have many votes in the time that I've been chair so I miss these things any other discussion Ron Ray is a good point and if it's convincing feel free to vote no and we can reshuffle no seeing none we'll move to a vote uh Ted Barker hook says I to the motion Ron he Arnold I so yes no yes uh Steve hi yes Vic yes Curtis abstein okay and sravan I'm sorry Sven yes where's the emphasis Sven yes Sven yeah okay I'm sorry about that no no it's not a problem at all um either one is fine your vote Yes okay so I think what I count is 1 2 3 four five yays one nay and one abstain and the motion passes so I think what we've just done is recommended that the planning board consider the three plans we've discussed tonight and they are welcome to consider and um I can go to the meeting if you think it would be helpful John but maybe Vic you can cover if they have questions about the discussion we had sure you feel comfortable with that Vic y I can cover them but then you can always go back more than welcome to join the meeting also what's that I'm sorry I can cover if they have any questions but you you're also more than welcome to join the meeting if you have all right yeah through the chair no disrespect to Vic but um my guest is Ted you're probably goingon to be asked to present at town meeting oh with the planning board um worked so well last time it may be worth participating not doubting Vick's ability to communicate the the discussion but they're probably have questions for the chair okay um I I would certainly be tuning into that planning board meeting anyway so it's just as easy to be on the zoom call they're still doing almost everything on Zoom right yes yeah okay John we need to vote on the bylaw language or is that something to be finished later um that I would consider that as part of the the plan okay because the summary that I presented to you all factors in certain parameters okay and so if you are making that decision based on those summary sheets those factors are part of your recommendation okay okay and maybe I should have made this clear earlier we we then just passed along the 754 unit version of the new the walcot valley and they're welcome to tweak it to give themselves more room if they choose and the 749 unit version of the which they would have to tweak if it was one they wanted to propose correct okay so I think for tonight our work is done is there anything else we need to do John no no except for look for a motion to adjourn question do you know when the next when the planning board meeting that this will be considered has it been scheduled yet or will it be on the agenda for the next one or uh it's not going to be on the agenda for the next one because that's Monday um it we'll have to see what the schedule looks like I don't know if the select board established a special town meeting date I'd have to look and see where that is because I mean we're closer than six months as of right now so it shouldn't really matter but um you know earlier rather than later May matter if the me meeting is earlier rather than later I I would suspect this would probably be on for the October 7th meeting I think with the select board I only skimmed the last meeting but I think they were kind of waiting for at least the planning board to get a hold of our plans before they considered what is the best date for special town meeting yeah that's not what I recommended to them but they may have changed their mind at the last uh select board meeting I really just kind of skimm through it as I was uh on the the YouTube um one other thing before getting a motion to adjourn um this is our our new with the addition of sud our new zoning advisory committee so one of the things we'll have on the agenda for our next Zach meeting is uh reorganization uh discussion of chair Vice chair those kind of things so feel free to give that some thought before our next meeting um and then John and I will talk about other agenda items I would love to get from John even if we don't have actionable things yet a discussion of the new affordable housing law which includes Adu changes and even if there's nothing for us to do right away what might we be looking at down the road in that regard um but John and I will talk about it and we'll see if we can come up with some agenda um besides simply reorganization and an update sound good everybody then I'm looking forward motion to aurn so M think I heard a second before the move I think it was Vic moved and Curtis seconded is what I think I heard all right no it's the other way around oh the other way around okay want to make sure we get our minutes right all right uh Ron a journ yes yes Arnold yes Steve yes Vic yes Curtis yes San yes and Ted Barker Hook is a yes thank you everybody we are done that took us an hour it's not so bad thank you John for all your work no problem thank by everybody e