e hey John Mike how we doing all right how are you I can't complain I'm filling in for Bob tonight all right hope I don't screw it up too badly no I'm sure you won't it's been a while since I done one of these we're pretty simple on Zach yeah won't give you too many problems I hope I hope not I safe I don't want I don't want to let Bob down all right now I just got to make sure I get full screen there we go okay so the broadcast is ready to go all I got to tell you what do you usually start on time or um yeah usually we have a quum by seven okay hi Mike hi John hey Ted how you doing excellent oh Jim's giving me some instructions John unless you see a reason this is a bad idea once we start talking MBTA I'm going to throw to you to summarize what you've learned since the last planning board meeting sure about the uh well the legal stuff and other things about the alternate plan that the planning board asks us to look at yeah I have not heard back from um Town Council so okay won't have any official determinations but Brian and I were pretty confident about what we talked about so I'm I'm okay talking about it okay good hello Curtis it looks like you're home in Massachusetts not in Arkansas yeah until next week and I'm my TV be quiet here yeah we've started construction out there and I've let them go on their own for about a month I got to go back and make sure they're doing it right so yeah well my drive through Arkansas Curtis did not take me to you but it did take me through hope so I took a couple pictures of Bill Clinton's childhood home yeah I been through there once or twice it's one of the I I did a little uh thinking I've now been through all lower 48 states but then I started counting how many I have spent the night in and Arkansas I think is one of six of all 50 states that I've not spent the night in I've driven across it twice um but neither time did I stop to sleep well we happen to be down there at the same time again you're welcome to stop by our wonderful place in the Ozark Mountains so I would be happy to do that hi Ron hi Mary hi Vic all right so it looks like we're 30 seconds before going live how that sound it feels good to me I suppose heads up everyone you got 28 seconds before on the air it's almost that time I'm gonna hide my ugly face and uh I'll just let you know when you're live I'm to show everyone what I'm looking at just past my computer oh plastic sheeting oh there's my house that looks like fun all right here we go we're gonna go in five four three two one Mr cheer you are live thank you uh so we'll wait just a little bit longer to see if we can get a few more I don't one two three four I think we have a quorum but we'll wait just a little bit longer good evening Amy do you know John did um anyone say they're not going to make it that I'm wasting my time waiting for uh no one said they weren't going to make it Sam I think out of oh Sam and Sam was positive both of them said they were gonna be here I did not hear from matu I did not hear from Nisha Rachel or Kristen okay well we'll give s more moments yeah and then also um just heads up the proponents for 6870 are not going to be here right and I'm going to make that the first kind of announcement once we get going all right Sam just showed up oh good all right once I see his face I'll open with the script and then update everyone on the agenda where are you Sam there it is good evening all right here we go everybody pursuing to chapter two of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means in accordance with applicable law this means that members of the public body as well as members of the public May access this meeting meeting via virtual means participants May access this meeting through the remote meeting link as posted on the meeting agenda and through the town's online calendar when required by law or Allowed by the chair persons wishing to provide public comment or otherwise participate in the meeting May do so by raising their hand or otherwise signaling their intent to speak this meeting will be recorded please take care to mute your microphone unless you have been recognized by the chair we will now confirm attendance of members please respond with present if you are on this call Ron Foy present Arnold Cohen not right now Nisha no Madu no Sam present Rachel rosson Vic pry Vic you were here a moment ago I think you have to out loud say here still didn't hear are you muted did anyone else hear Vic my computer maybe oh I hear you now are you here Vic yes I can hear you there we go uh Curtis Smithson present Mary Larson Marlo present and Christ borato no Kristen staff John guch you here present wonderful all right uh for members of the public who are here welcome to the meeting uh we do have an update to the agenda we will not be discussing 68 and 70 South Street Heyward resoning the um applicants weren't able to make it tonight and it's our understanding they have updates to present so it didn't seem to be a worthwhile discussion with without their updates so we're going to table that I don't know exactly when our next meeting will be but I imagine it will be in August sometime so if you want to stick around to discuss MBTA communities we'd be happy to get your input but that is our only agenda item tonight other than talking about the minutes all right uh I do like moving the minutes to the very beginning this was May 22nd 2024 I was not at that meeting so other than seeing um a grammatical pet peeve of mine I have no comment on the minutes and I will be abstaining from the vote did anyone else see anything that did not represent oh I see Arnold is here now hi Arnold did anyone see anything in the minutes that did not represent what they heard in that meeting I'll go ahead and make a motion to approve the minutes as submitted wonderful and a second second discussion is there I gotta know what that grammatical error was Ted since I wrote the minutes so I don't know if it's yours or if it is the comments but it's a monster pet peeve of mine is using comprise and compose as synonyms they are not the hole comprises the parts the parts compose the hole so you might say my class comprises 35 students my class is composed of 35 students so I think it was when Sam said that the lot is comprised of multiple lots that maybe or something like that it's not your fault John I said it wrong I I didn't want to assign blame but I tell you what if you're a student in my class and you say or write that wrong you're going to hear from me anyway that's all I saw but still I'm going to be um abstaining from a vote on the minutes are there any other comments no so let's have a vote on approval of the minutes Ron yay or nay yay Arnold Arnold yay Sam yay Vick yay Curtis yay and I Ted Barker hook will abstain so that business is done all right the big reason we're here and what occupies my mind when I do think of zoning right now in town is the MBA to uh MBTA communities bylaw um I know that this was discussed at the end of the last meeting and some ideas were kicked around and we were kind of waiting for more um specific direction from the planning board before we did anything um I don't know if but I hope you have tried to watch some planning board meetings at least as regards NBTA communities because you know it's going to be homework for us um they did come up with a proposal that they wanted us to look at um my reading of those meetings and Vic you're on the planning board so please correct me if you think my reading is way off my reading of those meetings is there seem to be two schools of thought that present themselves one is that we throw away the map that lost town meeting and propose this keep the downtown district the way we proposed it to the planning board and the way it went to town meeting and then instead of um carbonis and um The Preserve instead include on the map the apartment complex in Legacy Farm South also known as the Woodview Apartments the Woodview area um apparently there's no volume coming through is that you John or is that hcam can everyone here hear me we hear you okay must be hcam okay check it right now check it right now okay anyway the Woodview Apartments be considered and also the Windsor Apartments we did in our initial discussions talk about Windsor and we in the end did not include it in our map um John has done a little bit of work and asked some questions regarding having a map app that is those three parcels and I've asked John to give us um an update on what he has learned and then we as a group can discuss this proposal as well so John thank you all right uh I'm just gonna say it again because I think some people signed on after Ted said uh that we are not going to talk about the rezoning on South Street haward street because I see some people that I know probably are here for that okay um so just since I have the floor uh just to let everybody know we are not talking about that tonight it's going to be move to the next meeting they're not going to be here they cannot make this meeting so we're just talking about NBTA all right um I am going to share my screen if I can find the [Music] button so can you all see this not yet yes all right so this is the new proposed map from the plan board given uh their Direction and can you see my cursor yes okay so you've got wood View at Legacy Farms here that's the current existing uh apartment complex downtown which remains unchanged from the previous iteration that went to town meeting and then Windsor at hopkington uh that is over off of Lumber Street and then you can see a little zoom in just to get a little bit better idea of what's here and so that is is what planning board suggested we look at get rid of this and bring up the appliance [Music] model so plugging all of those details in to the compliance model from the state gives us this [Music] table may look familiar to some of get a little bit bigger can you read that yes okay so this factors in the three different districts downtown Remains the Same uh it's 18.7 Acres 11.6 units per acre for 217 total uh unit capacity Windsor at Hopkinson replaces um preserve and carbonis uh up in the upper Cedar Street district and is 35.3 Acres total of 530 capacity units and 17.7 units per acre and then we add on wood View and that is 18.2 Acres 273 units and 15 units per acre so given all this they would comply uh or it could potentially comply we don't we can't guarantee that it would comply because we're just not going to be able to get it to the state to get that determination back so we would assume given these numbers that it would comply um however talking to Town Council and talking to Elaine Lazarus Town manager and uh you know doing some thinking on my own the wood view we think will not fit into the criteria for the state and that is because it was developed under the osma district which requires a master plan special permit and we talked about if it's possible to pull that out of that but um the way that we've interpreted the laws the bylaws and everything else um once that parcel is developed as part of that larger development project there really is no way to pull it out and that's because the larger development project um requires this building for units open space um a whole bunch of other things that are that are woven in through the master plan special permit and so you really can't add anything to it because there's going to be requirements under the master plan special permit that would prohibit that since we're already I think we're like five units short of the maximum units allowed under that whole master plan special permit um so some people might say that's great they can't build on it but the state's going to look at that and say that means it's not developable and therefore it's not eligible and so we think we're pretty 99.9% confident we're going to have to pull wood view out because it would not meet the stage criteria so what that does is and I think I think I printed it out so let me find it um so what that does is that puts us into a position where sorry I probably can't talk and look at the same time I'm just going to pull up the actual model so what that does is it puts us in a weird [Music] position where we meet most of the requirements this is the compliance model for removing Woodview at Hopkinton we meet the 50 or the 15 units per acre we meet the 50 acres we are three units short of the potential unit capacity so what does that mean we could grab another parcel in downtown put that into the downtown parcel and hope that that parcel or you know we could grab a couple Parcels whatever we need to do um to make that 3unit uh loss ho again um but I wanted to bring this to you all first to talk about the other thing we need to consider is we think the Windsor at Hopkinson can be included but Town Council is currently doing some review and will give us a memo to let us know if that actually would be allowed because it was developed under a comprehensive permit and so if you if it's developed under a comprehensive permit are you able to pull that out of a comprehensive permit now that it's allowed by right or are you if you're developed under a com comprehensive permit and they are now allowed to do more units than they were approved for under the comprehensive permit would they be able to add those units on with under the NBTA communities uh bylaw and therefore you could have units on that property that were not necessarily planned for under the comprehensive permit and could be added right away so we're trying to get that information from Town Council it's unclear right now as to how that would work we're trying we may need to go to the state and ask them for an opinion on that um but those are really the two main challenges that we're facing with this proposed plan um I could keep on talking but I'm G stop here so ask for any questions because that's kind of the the Crux of the the issue so I'll stop here and ask for any questions all right so um I'll start with some questions I suppose John and I um talked last week um let me start with Woodview John maybe I misunderstood last week maybe a new wrinkles showed up what I thought I heard last week was the issue with Woodville was if we allowed MBTA type Community Development it would knock out all of the open space requirements that are part of that development it would make much more of Legacy Farm South developable than it is currently is that not the concern did I misunderstand that or is there an even bigger concern now I think it's the even bigger concern now okay because it's can we even have it considered eligible by the state at this point and the answer is pretty much no we're waiting for maybe a little bit more confirmation on that but Town Council Elaine and I all just don't see how it would be approvable by the state given that any developer would have to jump through these massive hurdles that would probably get shot down in in several different points of the process uh so I just we just don't see how the state would ever even consider that an eligible parcel okay um my other question has to do with the Windsor lot is there a chance you could pull up a map that can zoom in on that parcel please how zoomed in do you need to be I don't know just so we can see that part of the neighborhood so we can get a good lot look at the shape of the lot and kind of sketch out where current building is on it I can I can if we need more I can bring up the gis it's just going to take a little bit of time to uh to load it up okay but we have the PDF and I see people putting stuff in the chat I cannot monitor that right now so if there's any questions I would so let me just ask if we can turn off the chat that would be great I like getting the message that sound wasn't coming through but we're not going to conduct meetings over chat if there's something somebody wants to contribute to the meeting we will have time for public comment and I'll ask you to speak up at that point otherwise please don't use the chat if we can't turn it off I have turned it off so yeah if we could either zoom in on the insert way up there we go okay so I don't understand John all of the terminology you threw out in the kind of legal concerns with this um it was built under a certain set of conditions and the question is whether putting MBTA over it would make those help me again can you can you restate what you what the worry is with that un less planning board speak so a comprehensive permit is more casually or less formally known as a 40b project okay right so this was a 40b project as part of the 40b project process developers can um forego local zoning and build to certain levels as long as they meet criteria at the state level right and part of that is 25% of the units have to be affordable which makes the entire lot affordable okay um because this development was built under a comprehensive permit and that's how it was approved it's unclear whether if the MB communities allows them to do more units it's unclear whether they can actually just build those units right now or if they would have to go through a process to pull it out of the comprehensive permit and then build those units under the underlying zoning which would be the NBTA communities okay if they if they have to pull it out of a comprehensive permit in order to develop it does the state consider that similar to Wood viw where it may be too owner for developers to actually develop it and therefore it is development is effectively prohibited by those conditions that are already on the site okay so again when you and I talked um there was there was a maybe it's the same concern maybe it's different the reason I wanted you to zoom in on the lot is you can kind of see under the um checkerboard there you can kind of see the gray where the buildings are everybody yes well in the southern portion of that lot there's nothing built um and it's unclear if that's a leech field there there are no Wetlands there and the wetlands don't come terribly close to it so when John and I were talking a worry I had was well the winds or apartments are built and it's if a goal is for the planning board and for us and for the town to not have a lot of building immediately as a result of the NBTA overlay one thought was well those Windsor apartments are brand new nobody's going to buy them and knock them down and build new apartments and a worry I had was the southern arm of that lot is completely unbuilt and that that could potentially become new housing but I guess what I'm hearing John is because the whole lot is under 40b they couldn't do that necessarily either because of the regulations of the 40b approval or something so that's what we're unclear about right we're unclear if the state would allow or we're unclear as to what the state would allow on a parcel that has a 40b comprehensive permit on the property and the current housing stock that's on that property okay so if the state wouldn't allow it then that is an unacceptable parcel to the MBTA community's bylaw according to the state potentially if if if the state did allow it then there is the potential of the Southern arm of that lot potentially being developable right away yes okay uh Amy I see you if I could just hold up for a second and I can ask the the committee if they have any questions but I see your hand all right so those are my two questions for now regarding the planning board's proposal for us to look at M members Mr chman can I ask a question I yes please do Arnold all right I so I'm part of is I'm kind of confused I I know I saw this proposed new article With The Changes uh is this Windsor lot that looks like it's off Lumber Street is that the um the Lumber Street subdistrict I think it is is that right John because it's off Lumber stre it's the neighborhood mixed use District yeah well anyways but under under the proposed bylaw there's uh there's two new areas that are going to be included in the MBTA uh um districts well we're asked to consider them yeah well to consider it anyway so so one of them is Lumber Street subd subdistrict and the other one is and and the other new one is Legacy farm subdistrict so is this hashmark parcel that's off of looks like it's off of Lumber Street is that the same thing as is on page four of this um proposed revised article or you just me are you just asking if it's the same as the reference in the bylaw the proposed bylaw yeah yes this is the Lumber Street subdistrict in the bylaw the apartment complex is the Windsor at Hopkinson so that's why we're okay and then the third one which is new is Legacy Farms subdivision that's this one is that the one that you said at the beginning would not legacy F subd district is this guy Lumber Street subd district is this guy and downtown subdistrict is this guy and Legacy Farms is also known as Woodview yeah the apartment complex ww yeah so that all right yeah I just wanted to clarify that so uh yeah so I reside at uh the trails which is off of Legacy uh Farm Road but it's it's a different part of it you know we're Legacy Farm North so didn't affect us at all anyway but it sounds like it's out of the which I would have thought is is out of it's not in the picture anymore okay that that's all I was asking and I think Arnold and everybody else when we offered our first map uh and the idea of Legacy Farms North or South was thrown out John suggested very early on that it would probably run into a legal morass that would make it unworkable and now we have Town Council in aane saying John was right back then at least it seems that way other committee members questions for John or me or comments hey de go ahead Ron thank you uh Ted just a question about the uh discussion at the planning board level maybe Vic you can answer this uh just uh what what was the general feeling about that other opportunity Ted talked about just putting the same one out there again uh is is that still a a possibility Vic do you want to answer sure uh can you hear me yes just want to make sure y so uh Ron we just from the plan more meeting as we initially did summarize it what we are trying to look as the options because there's a concern about the carbonis and everything what's coming across and the feel of the Town how it was voted down in the meeting just to make sure that we sell this out back to the town in a better possibility way if as a committee of us if we see that nothing's working out then we just have to get back to the board saying that you know hey we waited it out and we looked at the options and this is what it is so what I heard Ron is the reason and again Vic tell me if you think I'm getting this wrong the reason it lost at Town me meeting uh was for a variety of reasons different people at town meeting had different reasons um if I were to break it down one is the residents at uh The Preserve were a loud voice that said we don't want our town homes rezoned another was kind of a um we fear that these are not safe enough uh particularly carbonis is a developable plot of land and it's going to bring growth very quickly more quickly than you the planning board and we the zoning advisory committee thinks uh and then that will put pressure on schools and and services Etc um a third reason I heard is the state shouldn't be telling us what to do and we're not going to do anything that the state tells us today so there is a contingent on the planning board my reading is they think that for reasons two and three um the planning board and I at town meeting just didn't present the case well enough didn't have enough information could have had more explanation to bring to the table and had that come through enough votes would have shifted and that first map would have passed and so those seem to be in favor of at least trying exploring the idea of representing the same map the other group uh says look town meeting voted it down I don't care how close the vote was and it was an eight vote difference uh a five vote swing um but town meeting voted it down and we have to listen to town meeting and if we present the same math will be thumbing our nose at Town Meeting those are the two sides I've heard I see I'm coming right back to you I promise vict did I capture that yes uh just one thing to I want to add that you know John did a lot of you know PR work and educational sessions and he was always available there was a lot of back and forth happened before we presented to the town uh so I think we did our best but again those five wordss is what we lost that and yeah that's it go ahead Ron just that we know wood view is not going to work yep um if we stick with the downtown district and the Lumber Street subdivision and just uh I'm I'm trying to think of of how to uh leave leave The Preserve out of it but move the carbonis thing in you know that would give us the extra units that we need unless John you think we can get the extra units by the uh just adding some extra Parcels downtown which would probably make more sense but uh it's I I really think Ted that you guys did a terrific job of presenting the information to people before the town meeting and I I just hate to see all that effort really go down in flames because I thought it was a really good proposal uh I saw thank you very much I saw another hand pop up was that Vic who was that thought I saw yes that's me uh oh go ahead yeah yeah one thing is that you know another part of it which came back during the discussion again when I was interacting with the people outside the town meeting they keep asking the same question what we asked you know what exactly we are losing on this the dollar amount which we lose from the state which was not clear and also if the to if the state is suing us which is practically a blackmail thing sorry to say this but that's how it's been coming either what it or we will sue you kind of a thing uh what is the percentage of OTE that we are losing um during filing this case the lawyer fees and everything that that part of it wasn't clear in the town was all the town people were trying to ask about this that's one which I wanted second one which I just want to ask again it's a more of a clarifying question and pardon my memory did we also look at the lots of you know the uni Banks Starbucks and the opposite lck where we have 110 Grill those shopping complex lots to convert this as an MBTA U I wasn't sure or can we consider them I don't remember considering them at all kind of the commercial area we thought about besides downtown was South Street and and I think we weighed South Street for a little bit and then ultimately decided we didn't want to risk the potential loss of commercial tax base but I don't think we did talk about Starbucks or Hiller's pizza or that lot right the only reason thanks for the only reason I was bringing this up right now if we have to comply with the law and leaving The Preserve out if we take these two lots out does that comply us again it's just an open discussion just a thought process from M so you're saying one idea would be to keep that purple area potentially although it may not work legally right but add to it the shopping district right next to it yes next to it and the opposite one maybe just to make up our numbers okay other committee members just chime in because I can't quite see you anyway I'm happy with you just popping in and if no one's got anything I'll go to you Amy don't hear or see anything go ahead Amy please um of course name and address yep Amy R Bush 54 Grove Street um so I guess my questions that John may have looked into and I don't know Lumber Street um development did have a host Community agreement with the town and the select board when it was built in that we would agree to put in water and sewer for the good devel and the developer would agree to do other things and I just wondered how that would be affected by if we change the zoning would they like I don't know if the town attorney guess would need to look into that and I just wondered if they had yet and uh right because would we be stuck then providing more water and sewer for them because that's what it says in the host agreement agreement or would would be stuck having to renegotiate the host Community agreement I'm not I'm just not sure that's just an open question and then the other thing I think Vic brought this up to um the more we can get documentation on the grants we would lose and I think I heard now the state is offering new grants that we would not be eligible or no that sorry new grants that you um could only get if you had complied with MBT communities act so it' be good to know what those all are and and my impression is if when the Attorney General sues all the talents that don't comply I don't think she they'd be suing us for money so much is I was assuming they would sue us to become in compliance and that they might potentially draw them out for us but I don't know that's the case and if that's the case I would rather that we dra pick pick and draw the map not have the Attorney General tell us what map to have anyway those are my thoughts my um I'll leave the first to John for a second if you have thoughts John the second is yeah I I don't know Amy I don't know what lawyers do but I think the money questions I've understood is what would it cost us to defend ourselves not what would the fine be if we ultimately lost the court case and what what struck me and I don't know if it struck everyone else way before me is the goofy part about it is if we didn't comply and if we got sued our tax money as Hopkin tonians would go to Town Council to defend us while our Massachusetts tax money would go to the state to sue us we would be paying for both sides of the lawsuit through our taxes as residents of the town which is a supremely absurd position to the end I want to make sure it's clear that I I think you guys are doing a good job and that we need we do need to bring a plan forward that we really hope can pass I just want the public to kind of understand what the consequences might be if we don't and so I was happy with the previous plan this new plan looks like it it has some potential too thanks John about Amy's first question about providing water sewer do you have any thoughts on that yeah that's a a great question to ask um and I will follow up with Town Council about that I would assume well we'd have to look and see what the host Community agreement says because if it's just like a a point in time agreement where if you're doing this development and we have to provide water and sewer connections fine um if it's something that's like an ongoing thing that says for the in perpetuity the town has to provide these services to these number of units or you know some um ratio of service to unit provision that might be affected um so we'd have to look at that and see what it says so I can't really answer that right now but then I think you had another question about the grant money and that type of thing um and you know I kind of said it several times and it's it's it's a it's tough to kind of wrap your head around I guess but we don't know how much money we would lose because we you can always look at the grants that we've received for work but that work is done and we're not going to do that work again we're not going to redo our downtown we're not going to rebuild Legacy Farms Road North it's the stuff that we're going to do in the future that we would miss out on so an MW line waterline down Cedar Street would probably use massworks funding we would be ineligible for that um we're currently in the process of uh doing grant work for the municipal vulnerabilities preparedness program we may you know depending on the timing we may have that funding revoked in the middle of a project and we would be ineligible for future projects or for future grants through that uh that program and then there's a whole bunch of other Grant programs that we could use that we haven't in the past the mass downtown initiative grant program that's to revitalize your downtown we wouldn't be eligible for that uh so it's hard to put a number on that because we don't know what projects are going to come up in the future that we would then be ineligible for and even projects that we're familiar with the MW waterline project that's still that's being discussed we don't know how much we would get from massw work so we can't say how much we would lose because we don't know what we would be getting um so it's a really hard question to answer and I understand it's unsatisfying but it's it's almost you kind of put yourself into a trap if you give a number out because there's no way you can prove that um I'm going to say really quickly because it looks like the room is filled up again um for those who weren't able to make it at the beginning of the meeting we will not be talking about 68 and 70 South Street Hayward street today the applicants couldn't make it tonight with some additions amendments to their proposal so we're tabling that if you are here for that discussion you're welcome to stay but um hopefully we'll have a meeting in August and we can pick that issue up again so if you're here for South Street haywards street we will not be discussing that tonight um any other thoughts on it looks like really our discussion right now is on this property because we've kind of already crossed off Legacy Farm South um I even if this gets approved by the town I am much more concerned about development of the south portion of this lot then I am concerned about the carbonis lot to me that looks more developable than carbonis um does anyone else share that or am I missing something I Ted I would just be skeptical as to why weren't more units put back there at the time um I I there there has to be something economically that makes that less than desirable to develop unless I misunderstand John I think he gave us the answer U which I didn't have before tonight um which is under the agreement for the 40b apartments they were limited and how many they could build would that be accurate John or at least a good guess I I don't know I was not here for that so I don't know what the discussions were I don't know in the host Community hthis potentially yeah okay yeah any other thoughts on these Parcels could we John John go ahead John is there a way we can find out why was those South parcel was not developed anyway just out of to have a better understanding that's all is that some way we can know the background of it uh yeah I can look um I don't know if there is a solid answer it could just be that the developer could only get funding for a certain amount of development I don't know I can take a look but I can't promise a satisfying answer I appreciate it thanks Sean thanks for looking Vic what I I I will share this when I looked at it and I didn't spend a lot of time pouring over it I assumed that it was going to be a lot of wetlands back there there certainly are wetlands in the area but I didn't see any on on the map um certainly not in that property and and it didn't seem to come very close I thought that was going to be the answer um there's got to be a reason right um but apparently it's not the wetlands reason so maybe we can find out more um John do you think you could give us a look at downtown again let's for a second say all right let's keep this section on the map and let's assume that Town Council says yeah actually you can do this and the state will accept it so if we did that then all we got to do is find space for three more units down town and we have two districts am I understanding that correctly John that would be a route to go if Windsor were okay yes however um we would need to look at how that plays into the density because we have to say 15 units per acre and uh let's see if we take that out so if we take out wood view we are at 15.3 units per acre so adding depending on the parcel add it's counterintuitive but depending on the parcel in downtown adding more land May reduce the density and so we'd have to play around with it and see how that works out right I see so just looking downtown and I'm not officially proposing a thing if we added um the service center there on the corner oh no it's already there wait a minute is that then the bank or The Dominoes that's just off the map what's the first property right there is that dominoes or the bank that's the bank I believe oh that's the bank so that's a pretty that's a pretty small parcel compared to say the police station so that might work out mathematically better than if we added the police station as far as the density requirement am I understanding that possibly yeah we'd have to we'd have to run the model I don't right right no no no I'm not saying it's guaranteed I'm just trying to understand roughly the way the model works all right committee have a look downtown what do you see given that that rough guesstimate that you think might be included that keeps us within the density requirement so a small parcel that also makes sense for us yeah I to keep Windsor I think the The Dominoes and and Bank building right there would be a logical extension to the downtown I mean we're we're only looking to pick up three additional units um and we just cross our fingers that it stays above the 15 okay other thoughts certainly coloring in a mapwise that looks prettiest rather than jumping across to I don't know I don't even remember the names of the buildings pantai jumping across and coloring in pantai looks a little funny including the the church I don't think is The Right Move okay no other thoughts um I I think I agree with you Arnold if that is the route to go and we don't know that it is and I have real concerns in different ways with the Windsor Apartment area but if that's the way to go we'd have to find out if adding the bank and dominoes would get us there with Windsor is is that a worthwhile homework assignment for you John that's a yes so yep Ju Just adding those two units and running the model tons of extra work what if we just added the bank and then do we have to add both or does adding both screw it up because now it's too much land and we lose I can try can try both federations yeah and then we can wait for more answers on Windsor uh the answers are legally is that allowed what does it mean about water and sewer I think Amy raises a really good question I never would have come to me um and if we can get more information on why the south portion hadn't been developed those I think are all really important questions for the Windsor property with that said what I thought we might do um is revisit some properties that we did kick around before and ultimately left off the map if we were to go way back in time I think we had a homework assignment to show up with a proposed MBTA overlay map and I presented one that had way too much land ultimately I had no idea how many acres I was adding but I just started throwing Parcels on and then we trimmed way way back on it but might be worth reviewing some of those um and honestly I don't remember why many were removed other than well we don't need it we don't need that land to meet the requirements so why add it uh the first one I do remember was South Street there was discussion about taking a parcel or two of South Street and making it MBTA and what we decided it felt close to unanimous unanimous but it took a little um arm twisting is not the right word convincing of one or two but what it felt like is we were worried that we are giving up potential commercial tax base if we allow that to become residential um and I share that worry I think in my original map I included one parcel on South Street but was very happy to take it off my original map um I would love to keep South Street as a commercial area uh potential commercial tax base the kind of businesses that have been moving in I would love to not turn that over to residential so I'm proposing we continue to not consider South Street does anyone want to push back no I know Ron you wouldn't I knew for sure you you like leaving South Street alone all right so if Windsor doesn't work and we're pretty sure wood viw doesn't work if we are to help planning board propose another map what else do we consider well here were other things that were on my original map the Elwood school now I remember hearing that would not be allowed after we removed it anyway but I can't remember why I don't know if it's because it's still a school and it will be for another couple years or if there was another reason John I I think you might have been one who said it would not be approved by the state can you tell us why or am I wrong in that memory yeah so it's a publicly owned parcel um which means that in order to dispose of it the town would have to do an RFP and then that would be considered honorous for a developer because the town would have to put restrictions on it and the whole rigoll of that and so any person that would want to develop that would be up to the discretion of town meeting to dispose of it in the first place and then once it is passed through town meeting what that RFP would look like and so it would be considered essentially too difficult to develop by right okay and we did talk about Center school but also removed it pretty quickly that would run into the same problem even though that wasn't part of our discussion back in the winter that would be the same problem yeah right okay so another property that I had on my initial map was the Indian Brook condos over by El um that situation although it's not close to the MBTA station the way The Preserves is but it would be a similar idea as including The Preserves on the map it's already relatively higher density um it is not close to public transportation either the MWR ta MW rapid RTA um it's not near the mwrta route it's not near the train station it's not near any public transportation but otherwise it would run into a similar idea to including The Preserve is there a chance John that we can use the map that you got us in on and scroll over to that so you don't have to pull up a full planning map it would be no there you go right in there somewhere there you go so that was one area I had on my initial too much land included map and then we removed is it worth reconsidering does anyone and John do you see any reason it could not work with with the state um I'd have to look into it and see what permits it was developed under but I believe it was just under um probably like a garden apartment which would be fine because that's what preserve was done on all right committee so if we couldn't do Windsor if we can't do wood viw if they are not ropos the original map what are your thoughts on Indian Brook Town Homes we can certainly look into it I'm for is it preferential to Windsor did I use preferential correctly there is it better than wior alternative to wior yes to me the part that makes it better well first of all we add all the legal stuff throw that away if we could include Windsor I'm worried about the southern portion this doesn't have a southern portion it would require purchasing buildings and knocking them down for a developer to think it worthwhile which might not be true at winter um I think it adds to traffic problems I think winds are ads to traffic problems um but I guess Indian Brook would strain a neighborhood of houses more than Windsor would uh it's not as big a parcel well actually looking at the whole parcel it might be similar I'm just looking at where the houses are okay so that is one of the ones that was on my map that we threw away and then the other one is uh north of downtown the Walcott Valley Apartments which would not be contiguous with our other downtown but it would be walking distance if you could find a way to zoom over there John it would be easily walking distance to downtown which then would get you to the mwrta bus and if they do build the extension to the train station in Southborough there it is right in the center there it's a pretty well again the actual parcel stretches North quite a bit I think that's all wetlands in there so it wouldn't be as developable so it's not as big an area but that was another one that I had on my initial map so again John do you have any immediate that wouldn't work because no not uh not off the top of my head again depending on the permit that it was under but I think it's going to be similar to preserve or any of the other garden department all right committee any initial thoughts on that one yeah um Ted um for either that or the Indian is it Indian Ridge is it indan maybe anywh Indian Brook uh you know this is this is going to be at a special town meeting which I don't think it drives as many people as uh the annual town meeting and there's always the possibility just the people uh whose neighborhood is going to be affected the ones who who go there and I don't know the answer to that but it and I and I it's my impression that's that's a factor um but I don't I don't know how you get around that if you if you want to do it at the special town meeting you know I I think I think you have to really explain to the people that it's really not going to affect them because it's only if uh everybody has to be bought out you know and that Indian uh losing my uh Brooke uh get to be like Biden um uh you know there's a whole bunch of houses I I don't know how how a developer could go in there and uh what would they do just buy a couple of the houses or all the houses I I don't know how it would work you know we already have uh an established uh development Asos and I don't know either we did learn from The Preserve that their condo um committee but that's not the right term but we did learn how hard it would be for a developer to develop that because they would have to be if not unanimous almost unanimous and agreeing to sell their property I don't know if the same rules would apply for the tow houses at Indian Brook or not I don't know if a developer would have to get every everybody owning Town Homes to agree or not for Walcott Valley again there are a lot of houses around there I think you're right about not in my backyard we're going to run into that no matter what happens in the planning board um but I think those are a apartments with people renting so a developer would have to convince the landlord of the apartments not all the residents I think that those are Apartments not owned town homes or condos so that would be a different circumstance as far as actually buying the property and redeveloping it but certainly the ABC Street neighbors might have something to say if we put that under an MBTA community's bylaw map yeah I mean it seems to be a bit easier with an apartment building where you just have a one owner who could if you pay him enough the the owner would uh presumably be willing to sell it uh I think that's the case at Walcott Valley but I haven't done any homework but that's my impression is that those are apartments with people signing probably oneyear leases oneyear rentals um so that would be a different circumstance for a potential developer Than The Preserve certainly and possibly probably Indian brother yeah and you may not have the the uh nimi Factor with that either well you would with the neighbors I think certainly maybe yeah yeah yeah I remember that when we try to do something in that area there a little while ago they so you know it's whenever you try to do anything with zoning it's always um comes into play uhuh does anyone else have thoughts on Walcott Valley okay so then while I was prepping for this meeting one property popped into my head that we did not consider before and I have not put a lot of thought into it so this may be a really bad idea even to bring up but what about Hopkinson Country Club hopkington Country Club the benefit would be um number one I don't think that they're ready to sell very quickly but it's privately owned so it doesn't run into you got to work in agreement with the town and go to town meeting it is way on the edge of town so if it were developed my guess is the traffic is heading north not into hopkington exacerbating our Main Street traffic issues my guess is the traffic would go north and then try to find uh route n um Route 30 up in that direction pretty quickly or heading on over to the 495 Connection by Route n um I think it's a big hunk of land I I don't know anything about how hard it would be or easy it would be to convince or even how it works to buy a country club I don't know if it's owned by one person I don't know if the membership co-owns it I don't know how it works does anyone have thoughts on Hopkinson Country Club as part of an overlay John is there any chance you could zoom up there so we can see how big the parcel is now clearly there are no houses you have to buy and knock down or buildings you have toy I mean there is the clubhouse and stuff but it's not like you gotta pay for a whole bunch of houses that might make it more affordable and more attractive at the same time I think those who are members of the country club love being members of The Country Club probably have no interest and the members themselves of course I don't think own the country club they pay their dues annually so they're not making any money if it gets sold yeah I I do know through Conservation Commission there are some Wetlands issues up in there um you can see just north of the darker green shading of the country club there's some light green undeveloped area um while on the Conservation Commission we had a DE veler looking into buying and developing a couple houses in there um but a combination of wetlands and the steepness of the slope down to South Street made it so the Conservation Commission was not in favor of developing that I don't know if that would lead to problems if someone did buy the country club property and try to develop it I don't know if that would make it more or less developable so I'll shut up what what do you guys think about that go the chair yes please Mary my initial gut reaction is that I would not want this on the list and that other people may react that way um that um even though it's not publicly available open space it's still open space it's still Greenery you know so it's still provides that at least you know for non-members at least from the road um so that that's my initial reaction it is it is somewhat natural and uh I know you well enough to know that you and I both like to protect the natural even the somewhat natural Vic uh well the idea is good but honestly personally I'm not in favor of it to change the con because that is one location where it has its own Works uh for the town uh also just I'm sorry it has its own what it it has its own advantages of having a country club for the Town members for the oh it provides a service or a purpose that's right uh another one didn't if I remember correctly during our initial discussions no matter which lot we choose there should be a way or a kind of a transportation to the uh you know the nearest community rail yep think so there is a transportation available for the country club today as on date for the this one so is that something we have to plan as part of it if we choose any of these slots so we are not because we are adjacent Community we are not required to fulfill the development or overlay within a half mile of a of a transportation station um our original plan while that was not required we thought it was a good idea and part of the reason we put carbonis and The Preserve is because it was close to the mvta station it would encourage more public transportation use uh it could lessen demand for traffic because it's also not near downtown the residents would likely be driving to work through downtown so this one is not as perfect it's not as close to the train um however part of the reason and again I am not a huge proponent of this I'm throwing it out there just to hear what you guys think I do think it would if it were developed I I think the traffic would flow north you certainly cannot walk to the train station from there reasonably um but it's not that long a drive and it's a drive that would take cars out of hopkington not pull them in but we are not required to be close after all the Woodview and the Windsor apartments are nowhere near public transportation of any kind um and that's what we were asked to look at so um Amy I don't know if you have to give your address every time or not I don't know what the rules are yeah Amy Rush um I was just going to say I would lean towards against putting against um putting this on the list what I'm thinking is that I think golf courses are prime for development and I think this is pretty pretty likely to develop be developed into housing if it were sold I think golf is kind of a declining sport in this country it's expensive to main those Tain those courses and people are selling like there was a golf course in Millis that was just torn down for housing or not torn down not but redeveloped totally for a lot of the housing units um I'm not pushing back Harding was that a public or a private club private it was a private club okay yep I've went to m a wedding there but no no more it's gone and now I know somebody that lives in one of the houses oh it was one of the clubs that had houses at the club or no they moved into one no no it the the golf course has gone and now it is a lovely neighborhood of houses so anyway I think somebody would buy that one up do you have any idea how ownership of the of a country club works is it like a corporate entity and if so it may be providing corporate tax business taxes to the town the way it is that I don't know but I think it is owned by a board sorry it has a I think it's governed by a board and I think people buy into it if you have a golf membership you have an ownership stake and you have to vote to sell um yeah but I have no idea what their membership levels are if they've got people clamoring to get in or if they have ship that they need to sell yeah Ted yes Arnold so I don't have any real way of knowing you know how feasible or whatever it is but you know just just thoughts I guess is that uh you know who owns it you could just check in the assessor office and find out who owns it I I think that I could be wrong but I don't think the members of the golf club own the the land uh yeah I don't think so either uh you know I moved here from Sharon and in Sharon uh there was a Spring Valley Country Club and um the owners wanted to sell it to a developer who put up real big subdivision and uh there's a lot of people against that you know Golf Course is kind of pretty and everything and it's open space um so what wound up happening is that they um Pres OB erve the golf course and then the developer put up uh expensive condos uh uh around the golf course um but um that's true that's grp they could go golf course housing yeah I mean it's you know lot you know that's considered to be desirable I think to to have a home near the golf course unless you know you get in the golf balls going through your windows and everything all the time too but um so I mean whoever owns it I guess if they wanted to they could just sell it to a developer and try to put you know put up a subdivision now uh I would I don't know how many member citizens of the the town of Hopkinson are members there uh they might be against it they probably would be uh but you know my viewers it would be difficult might I don't know uh could cause the article to to lose but that maybe goes for any of these uh anywhere we go you might have that problem yeah well Ted it's owned by Rebel Hill LLC ah I happen to have the map up from little earlier earlier research you ever heard of them they happen to own like 50 country clubs that they buy and sell like Monopoly properties I have no golf knowledge whatsoever all right again I I was not favoring it it just occurred to me that we didn't bring it up before so I thought I'd bring it up um but it sounds like and and again I didn't need to be convinced even but I think I'm with you I don't think I like it as a proposal I want to make sure that we are doing everything we can to consider as much as we can when we go to the planning board and for the planning board to also be able to say at town meeting listen we we spent time thinking about property all over town so I I'm kind of trying to check that box too when I throw out the country club I imagine you have similar thoughts then with um the Roden Gung Club I I don't know about Wetlands down there but the Rod and Gun Club uh Further Along on Lumber Street that would be a similar situation to the country club unless it has even more Wetlands making it even harder to develop if we wanted to but that has no homes it has a degree of naturalness to it with the natural sound of [Laughter] gunfire um but I imagine nobody is feeling like that is a good property to include or consider there's a hand up at the top Sam did I go past you or you jumping in on the Rod and Gun Club uh well no I actually raised my hand uh and then you wrapped up on the country club so I lowered my hand but then you the gun club so sorry I missed you do you want to say something about the country club yeah for me a similar feeling I think for both of them uh where if they were to be P regardless of I don't know what the ownership looks like but if they were to be privately own this incentivizes them to be turned into something that I'm not a fan of and and also both the gun club and the country club regardless of the structure have significant uh vested interest by the membership um to not for it not to be abandoned as a country club or a gun club um I am a member of the rotten gun club and I would not want it to be turned into anything else so um you know so I think that would face significant uh push back sound a curiosity and again I'm not pushing for the golf club or the Rod and Gun Club I'm just trying to explore how many members are at the Roden Gun Club do you know I I do not know hundreds dozens oh probably several hundreds for sure several hundred I can find out if it whereas The Preserve produced 45 people coming to town meeting saying don't do this to our land the rotten Gun Club could bring 250 yeah they like to mobiz I'm a member also so very possibly yeah look at the look at the uh we don't want to bother Bird's article well I I will say that one had other problems besides I know I get that but but I think you would see similar response from the membership where people would show up um you know so and and so yeah and and I would have to declare if that was as Zone I'd probably have to say abstain from partaking as a member again I'm not pushing for it I'm just trying to make sure we're doing our part to explore areas in town um unless anyone has a counterargument about the Rod and Gun Club does anybody have any other parel that maybe we that I'm not remembering that we considered that ought to get reconsidered or does anybody have a parcel that we that has eluded us and maybe is as quickly dismissible as the country club or the gun club but that we ought to at least give an air to airing to I remember Sam you were looking especially at that one little property across from the reservoir but it's got state land running along the road um I that property anyway but um that's really unfortunate and I think John at the time told us that that's the same as the state may look at this as a non non-developable because of that little strip of land that separates it from the road but that I think the location would have been great though so well we don't have to discuss it I I had other reasons I didn't like it very much but that's off the table yeah anything else didn't we discuss the Golden Pond Assisted Living yeah you know I think we did and I forgot that we discussed that um can we go over there John just to give us an image to look at maybe for the people at home or on hcam does anybody remember thoughts about zoning Golden Pond there's the parcel can you just kind of outline it John real quickly it's got the pond it's got the woods it's a lot of wetlands back there and it's got that building boy if we if we did Indian Brook and Golden Pond those neighbors there on Elm Street are not going to be happy thoughts On Golden Pond my initial thought is that's a lot more traffic on Main Street if it does get developed that's lots and lots going straight onto Main Street um probably half of that lot is developable where the building is right now so acreage wise it's not going to be nearly as big as what that lot says it is does actually the the mwrta bus goes out to to uh Price Chopper doesn't it and then the next stop is downtown or is there a stop over there by Hiller's Pizza does anybody know there there is a stop downtown right and I think there's a Price Chopper stop yeah and I think there's some stops in between those as well the stop is actually Town Hall um and then there's a flag down stop on Legacy Farm South a permanent stop know there's a little pull out there by the Golden Pond that I'm not sure what Pur is that's a place I don't know if that's parking for something else or where the bus would stop or what that what the purpose of that little pull out is but I do remember noticing that yeah General general question regarding traffic um large projects I've worked on in other states and municipalities and stuff we had to present a traffic plan showing the impacts and then the developer was responsible for mitigating those impacts whether it be upgrading the nearest lights adding turn Lanes adding a light at our driveway is that something that enters in I'm not that familiar with the approval process here is that something that is required for a larger development in Hopkinson John Vic Mary you guys have thoughts do you remember anything from planning board about that Mary says no Vic says no John says no um yeah I don't I clearly I don't know yeah I was just wondering if that would that would help with everybody always for forever whatever piece we look at it's all it's just going to destroy the traffic there we're never going to get anywhere yeah maybe we should start requiring some of that I recall having to add a a second turn lane to a six lane road because we were a quarter mile down the road and we were going to increase the traffic enough that it was going to affect that you know developers don't like that but it is required in certain areas so may be a longterm thing we need to look at um I'm just looking at who's in the room I think I'm just going to say one more time just in case we are not discussing 6870 South Street Hayward street tonight that is no longer a part of our agenda so if you're here for that um you're welcome to stay as we I think get near the end of our MW or MBTA communities discussion but we will not be discussing South Streets that'll come up in a August assuming we can find a good day for a meeting if you're here for anything else feel free to raise your hand if you have thoughts on MBTA communities um all right so here's where I think we are um we don't know as the zoning advisory committee whether we would recommend to the planning board considering Windsor or not we don't know if it would fly legally and then we have other questions about if it did fly legally do we think it's a good idea so we're not ready to offer any thoughts to the planning board on that until we hopefully can get some more answers does that accurately reflect where we are does anyone disagree with that summation I concur okay we are of the opinion um because John is pretty firmly of the opinion that wood view Legacy Farm South isn't going to work at all and we can just cross it off the way did the country club just now is that true if wisor is legally State approved okay then we still have to consider do we think it's a good parcel especially my concern with that south portion of the parcel if we think it is then our question is if we add the bank Andor dominoes do we get where we need to be is that accurate if Windsor doesn't fly and we want the planning board to consider other properties if Windsor doesn't fly for legal reasons or we think it's not a good idea I think what we're left with now is Indian Brook and or Walcott Valley Andor Golden Pond is that true so John I I tell you this all the time and I mean it sincerely I never like giving you extra work um just looking at the properties my bet is Indian Brook downtown and wcot doesn't get us to where we need to be but could you take a look at that and see what that does for us and if need be Indian Brook Walcott Valley downtown the bank and dominoes if those little bits make the difference again otherwise winds are adding the bank and uh dominoes where does that put us as far as the numbers with the state have I accurately summed up where we've gotten committee there's a big thumbs up from Ron Mary good does anybody in the room John is there anything else you want us to do today I don't think so no okay does anybody in the room have anything to add before I ask if we can get a motion to adjourn dad joke mom joke anything m in trying to talk yes Amy go ahead have you guys gotten a timeline from Connor yet about all the the different deadlines and stuff so you'll have to meet gets town meeting I think that would be good to keep in mind because I think hearing on the map and all yeah we have not I don't know if you guys on the select board have a sense of that do you have any anything you could share with us what you think the timeline will be well I think we said it would have to be in December because Connor is too busy with the state elections in September and November yeah but we didn't get any more detail in that I'll certainly ask at our next meeting okay so uh through the chair Amy I think it was either September or December because October and November were were busy but we haven't heard oober yeah we haven't heard if September is going to be an option and I'm guessing at this point it might not that's pretty close September seems very soon okay and to add that since I had the gis map open I clicked on the Indian Brook area and it list a bunch of individual Parcels so it may be that that's not a a joint owner or a condo type situation is The Preserve listed as one parcel or a bunch of individual so so I think it's going to be the same as a preserve because they're condos so the owners own the buildings and those address but the parcel itself underneath is owned by the trust okay okay yeah just so we would we would probably want to know what their condo agreement is as far as selling and and what a if it would be a majority Vote or or if it would be something else so that's not going to be known unless I reach out to them and if I reach out to them they're going to ask me why so maybe we just don't ask yet and just see what including it does with the numbers yeah The Preserve has the same listing as as the Indian Brook so yeah that must be okay John does that give you some homework and hopefully not overwhelming homework yep okay all right um before we're done then can we look at a calendar for when is the next planning board meeting John Monday the 5th um is MBTA on the agenda uh it can be I don't know if it should be or not because my next question is should I go to that meeting or can you represent what we got accomplished tonight so it's not on the agenda right now um I don't know if the chair is going to ask to put on the agenda um I I really don't know if they're waiting for Zach to bring something back to them or if they can they want to continue talking about it separately so I'll have to reach out to the chair and just see if he wants to have it on the agenda uh and then I can I don't think you need to attend I think I can okay give an update just so you don't have to attend another night meeting okay um let CH uh I believe John we are waiting for the jack to come back for the planning board with the so that we can continue discussion that's what I remember the last discussion when we brought it back to Zach on the BDA yeah but then I think um Matt Matthew had been bringing it up just to talk about generally but I don't again don't know if they want to continue that conversation or if it was just that last meeting so yeah to your point Vic you know they did continue in waiting for Zack I just don't know how much more they want discuss it so all right well John let me know if there's anything I need to do for that Monday meeting peace um all right can we look at a calendar in August um my road trip is done I am available all August as far as I know what what are possible dates that make sense John okay see uh August 12th is wide open I don't know if that's a holiday is that three weeks out or two that is two oh yeah yeah today's the 29th not the 22nd um and then planning board has a meeting on the 19th and then there's the 26th that's open if we want to do it on Monday there's more obviously more days open let's stick with the Monday ideas do you think John for any more legal clarifications we could get anything in the next two weeks or should we wait till the 22nd no I I hope we can get something from Town Council relatively quickly all right well then I think the responsible move would be the 12th you said the 12th right yes what do you guys think can you make it on the 12th I have a conflict t on 12th I'll be traveling so I don't see anyone else saying there's a thumbs up from Sam I'm not available on the 12 all right um maybe John could you send the the email offering both dates and we'll see what is the best day for a quar yeah yep okay all right any last words thoughts can I get a motion to adjourn then please so move second second perfect let's go through the roll call uh we'll start at the bottom This Time Mary uh yes Curtis yes Nick yes Sam yes Arnold yes Ron yes and Ted Barker Hook is also a yes thank you everybody um between now and our next meeting please look for John's email between now and our next meeting try to put a little bit of thought into our discussion tonight maybe poke around the map see if other things come to you um as we try to help the planning board set the table for time meeting sound good thank you everybody thank you thank you John good night everybody thank you