##VIDEO ID:M7WXTUzTlwg## [Music] all right good evening welcome to the township how planning board meeting for Thursday September 5th 2024 Eileen opening statement please I hereby declare this meeting of the Howell Township planning board to be open adequate notice haven't been given pursuant to the new Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on January 5th 2024 a copy of said notice was emailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on January 5th 2024 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on January 5th 2024 said notice was posted in the office of the planning board and on the bulletin board in the Howell Township Municipal Building 456 7 Route 9 Howell Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and your safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits which are at the front and rear of the meeting room further more smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on Howell Township TV 77 thank you oh sorry roll call Mr Cristiano present Mr Greenfield here Mr leio here Mr Mercer here Mr tannin housee here Mr Withers have not heard from Mr Rebel here councilwoman Fisher here miss Pike here Mr corbon here and chairman huster here you have a quum okay would everybody please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence for our men and women serving here and abroad allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you Eileen is there any minutes I have no minutes this evening any correspondents yes uh I sent an email to all the members about storm water training and as part of our compliance we have to keep track of all the training on that subject so anyone who hasn't taken it could you please take it it's a 45 minute video and at the end of it just send me an email that you have taken the training so that we can keep it for when we have to do our recording the other item is is an ordinance that was introduced by the council it's ordinance 0435 and it has to do with family home dayc carees and residential zones of the township and that will be a public hearing and adoption at the council's meeting on September 17th which is before our next meeting so we have to uh comment on consistency with the master plan tonight okay so I know that there are some concerns about the ordinance I would just stay I I would just say overall it's not inconsistent with the master plan however if there are comments or concerns that any of the board members may have you should make the comments now and then when we move it forward to the governing body the comments and concerns um would be enumerated in that concern so it's not inconsistent with the master plan but I do know especially unck have some concerns about the ordinance that need to be put on the record and I think need to be pushed forward to the government body okay um yeah I'll just put it on the record so I I read through it and I agree it's it's it's consistent with the master plan but having been involved with child care centers for a very long time in my career um you know there is a differentiation between a child care facility and a family daycare center and just to give a little background um the the reason that environmental regulation started going into Child Care Facilities is that a child care facility was put into a thermometer Factory and there was pure Mercury coming out of the walls of this Factory kids got sick kids ended up dying uh later in life so they they enforced all these regulations for child care facilities that an environmental professional basically has to bless the the the facility or the property to make sure that it's safe for the precious cargo being children um so there there is some guidance it's not necessarily rule or regulation with the D but uh you know commercial let's say like a kitty Academy or something like that would would have to retain an lsrp somebody like myself or the 650 others in New Jersey and they would go through and and it's similar to we've all seen them up here a phase one an environmental assessment of the property to make sure that there's no areas of concern that could potentially impact the children there's also NJ dooh regulations which more gets into asbest lead-based paint radon um so you know there there's the D reg uh guidance there's njdoh and then there's the Department of Children and Families now I I applaud the Township in doing this um the the the thing is I've seen it in the past where a person would say hey I have a child care facility in my home or a child home child care and they start out with two kids and then they get bigger and bigger and bigger and all of a sudden there's 20 kids roaming around and you're like what what is going on and they don't have a license they weren't cleared environmentally again it's houses right it's it's our you know places that we pass all the time but the big the big thing of my concern that I've seen in other municipalities similar to howl is that there's properties that are Farmland right and these kids um you know there's kids probably playing on this property anyway but when you get into a regulation of a child care facility that you're giving your child to another person to look after are they potentially going to be impacted on that property okay it could be pesticides it could be lead base paint chips it could be you know numerous different things so I just wanted on the record that I am concerned I think the intent is is there and and great but I think it should be we should abide by all the New Jersey uh rules that if if a facility or a day a home daycare center you know wants to go into existence that they do take that into consideration if they're pursuing a DCF license uh and they want to be licensed by the state of New Jersey they should have to get an lsrp that should clear the property and that that's kind of my two cents on that so if anybody has any other was the limit is the limit for house it's there is no No Limit you know that that's another misnomer it's like oh if I if I watch two kids I'm you know exempt you're not exempt if you want to get a license through the state of New Jersey you have to do it properly so so is there is there a way to quantify that to say you need to meet all the New Jersey regulations I mean is there a New Jersey regulation that the town needs to be following you're you're you're dealing with I think Council wants to say something there there are um regulations for daycare separate and apart from land use or for njde and my understanding now this is the last time I looked at this was two years ago but a a family daycare as you're calling it or in the home is supposed to be limited to only up to five children and their initial license would be for up to five children and the regular daycare is highly regulated as to the square footage where how many how many windows and doors there have to be how many people are employed there whereas the Family Daycare is not as heavily regulated but they're not supposed to go over five kids so I think what which what Nick is suggesting is that is there going to be someone like let's say you're up to five kids and then you take a sixth kid or a seventh kid or an eighth kid I think what you're suggesting and I don't mean to speak for you is that we should probably put in the ordinance that these regulations need to be adhered to regardless so if in fact someone goes from 5 to 6 to 10 to 20 well Jen the town is not liable Jen I think the ordinance says that no more than five yeah but Brian honestly are you going to be out there in Candlewood looking in someone's house and saying okay that's five kids no no six kids no now it's seven kids that's that's law I think that's what I think that's what Nick is suggesting is that if we require this from the jump then we're set regardless if they go beyond the five correct correct and it also I mean it gets into a point where it listen it comes down to the comfortability of you giving your child to another human being to watch and you know are you comfortable with giving somebody you know a facility that you have no idea what's on that property you have no idea what's in the paint you have no idea what's you know anything that this child may come in contact with that hasn't been cleared by an environmental professional I just think that it's a good comment you're not opining one way or the other on whether it's a legitimate comment or not I think it's a good comment to append to the ordinance to take back to the governing body and they can decide what they want to do with it we're not asking you guys whether you agree with it or not I just don't understand what the ask is so can you just break the ask is is that that environmental requirement so be included in the ordinance regardless of the size correct next so that's what I would like to see so so so if I could SU price are you saying that for a um a home daycare cuz there's there's there's New Jersey law that allows home dayc carees to happen at least that was what cited in to up to five people so you're saying that that with that they are not required to abide by the same environmental rules correct as a a real daycare center that is exactly what Nick suggesting that's where I was so what his Rec mendation is is that these environmental requirements be required regardless correct I I mean that's what you're suggesting correct yes so at the end of the day I'm not asking you to agree or disagree I think it's a comment that gets appended to the the resolution of the of the consistency saying this is something that the governing B should consider it's up to them they can decide what they want to do but at we're not asking you guys to say yes this is great This Is Not Great this is a comment that's been made I don't think I don't think it's something that we're going to hold them up for correct but at the end of the day Council can adopt it at the upcoming meeting and they can still take your comment into con uh into consideration and and add it to the ordinance in a separate ordinance later or they can say this is really important let's not adopt tonight which I think they said was the 17th let's not adopt tonight and we'll amend to add this this comment correct which of course would need to be researched about whether or not it's permissible to limit Family Daycare in that manner because it it may very well be that if it's truly a home in a residential neighborhood and there really is no risk of an environmental contamination that's my that's my point though how do you know you don't know right exactly so if you have that peace of mind everybody sleeps better yeah absolutely so I agree with Jen see that I don't see the harm in adding this as a potential comment back to the governing body for consideration when they go to adopt this ordinance they can choose to say we're good where we are or oh this is a good idea but I think it's a good comment I think it should be added to any resolution which we've already decided has is not inconsistent with the master plan right and it's something that the governing body needs to take into consideration I don't know that they UND I mean to be perfectly honest Nick like you're an lsrp so I don't know that that was vetted through an lsrp before the ordinance was provided so that's comments that I think is part of this process as to to the betterment of the town it's up to you you guys to decide at the governing body when it gets to that point but I think it should be included that's all I got does it also cover water testing it does m like uhhuh Legionella eoli uh it's basically like your ptable water so lead and copper is the big one right y but yeah water testing would be part of it too but I would agree so now I defer back to the board I would recommend a resolution to um support the ordinance as consistent with the master plan with the comments from the chairman associated with the environmental issues do I have a motion I'll make a motion I'll second Mr Cristiano yes Mr Greenfield yes Mr leio yes Mr Mercer yes Mr tannin housee yes Mr Bell yes councilwoman fiser yes Miss Pike yes and chairman hust yes motion carries okay thank you all right that's all I have on correspondent great all right on to resolutions uh first case number SD 30003 CI how Township uh resolution granting minor subdivision approval ancillary bulk variance relief eligible voters Mr Greenfield and Mr tannin housee gentlemen Nick I'll be honest with you I I can't in good conscious review this I don't even remember seeing it I may have seen it three months ago it it came three months ago we haven't had a meeting or else one could vote on it find it in my email so e can you resend it to me I I'm sure we'll get a break and I'll take a look at it later I can't send it to you now this this is where the subdivision next door with the Auto Zone the Auto Zone right it was from over a year ago and Oh that's oh this was this was the the the was it the trees or can you give me a summary on it again back here isn't it behind yeah yeah right behind the Auto Zone like going into it's a subdivision of Township property yeah I think it was a transfer of of of property from AutoZone to us I see okay good thing no no no like I said I just couldn't remember what it was and I couldn't find it so technically we I only need one person from that meeting to vote Yes on that but if there are two people that's great I'm okay you're comfortable I'm I'm comfortable now I I I remember R those those minutes I just Motion in a second Motion in a second I'll make a motion second there we go now take the r Mr Greenfield yes Mr tanon House yes motion carries thank you right thank you case number SP 11079 North realy LLC a resolution granting preliminary and final site plan approval ancillary variant and design waiver relief eligible voters Mr Cristiano Mr legio Mr Mercer Mr tanhouse uh is Pike here oh yeah Miss Pike and myself do I have a motion I will make motion I'll second Mr Cristiano yes Mr leio yes Mr Mercer yes Mr Tan Miss Pike yes and chairman huster yes motion resolutions memorialized next is case number sp115 J Howell LLC resolution granting preliminary and final site plan approval for phase one and preliminary site plan approval for phase two with ancillary variance and design waiver relief eligible voters Mr Cristiano Mr legio Mr Mercer Mr Rebel councilwoman Fischer and myself I will make motion okay Mr Cristiano do I have a second I'll second Mr Mercer Mr Cristiano yes Mr leio yes Mr Mercer yes Mr wither he's not here sorry Mr Rebel yes councilwoman fiser yes and Mr chairman huster yes motion carries resolutions memorialized okay the next is review of resolution 0-24 D30 resolution for review of proposed ordinance 0-24 D30 amending chapter 188 of the land use Article 1 title and definitions eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman Fischer do I have a motion I'll make a motion Mr Mercer second I'll second Mr Greenfield Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr Rebel yes and councilwoman fer yes motion carries resolutions memorialized next is review of resolution 0-24 D31 resolution for review of proposed ordinance 0-24 -31 amending chapter 188 land use article 9 zoning requirements to add section 64.1 entitled Farm related special events on a small scale eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman fiser do I have a motion I'll make a motion Mr Mercer second second Mr Rebel Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr reel yes councilwoman fiser yes motion carries resolutions memorialized next review of resolution -24 d32 resolution for review of proposed ordinance -24 d32 supplementing chapter 18869 entitled a zones to include Farm related special events on a large scale and farm related special events on a small scale as permitted uses eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman Fischer do I have a motion I'll make a motion Mr Greenfield second second Mr Mercer Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr reel yes councilwoman fer yes motion carries resolutions memorialized next is case number sp-11 127 Diversified Acquisitions LLC is a resolution granting submission waivers eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman Fischer do I I have a motion motion Mr Rebel do I have a second second Mr Greenfield Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr reel yes and councilwoman fer yes motion carries resolutions memorialized three more to go case number sd- 2998 F Wadsworth Development LLC resolution granting submission waivers eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman Fischer do I have a motion I'll make a motion councilwoman Fischer second second Mr Greenfield Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr reel yes Council fer yes motion carries resolutions memorialized next is case number SD 3015 aome weinman a resolution granting submission waivers eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman Fischer do I have a motion I'll make a motion Mr Mercer second second Mr Greenfield Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr Rebel yes councilwoman fer yes motion carries resolutions memorialized and the last case number SD 3014 Neil and Monica Slattery resolution granting minor subdivision with ancillary variance and design waiver relief eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman fiser do I have a motion I'll make a motion councilwoman Fisher and a second second Mr Rebel Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr reel yes and councilwoman Fisher yes and sorry on yours I probably don't have it but there was also a resolution for 4461 Route 9 realy oh Cas number SP 1126 got it okay yep last one case number SP 11126 4461 Route 9 realy LLC resolution granting preliminary and final site plan with ancillary variance and design waiver relief eligible voters Mr Greenfield Mr Mercer Mr Rebel and councilwoman Fischer do I have a motion I'll make a motion Mr Mercer in a second second Mr Greenfield I'm sorry who was the motion uh Mr Mercer and Mr Greenfield for the second Mr Greenfield yes Mr Mercer yes Mr reel yes and councilwoman fiser yes Mo carries resolutions memorialized thank you all right that concludes resolutions uh I and any submission waivers no submission waivers okay let's get on before before you go too far y the application the next one is fine but the next extension of time for SP 1055 1228 realy is off the agenda they had to notice because it would be an extension past five years their notice was deficient so they're coming back with notice okay do we have to make an announcement no counc no they're going to resched right all right so the first application is SD 30005 Stanley domain or domain I apologize uh for an extension of time counselor how we doing tonight doing well thank you Zachary zinsky from davidon Eastman Muno Pon on behalf of Stanley Doan can you P spell your last name please sorry yeah Zachary stazinski of davidon Eastman Muno Pon for Stanley Doan the applicant uh my last name is spelled St y c zy NSK Ki and the the long and short of the extension of time application is that there was an uh the resolution was granted May 4th 2023 we contacted the D shortly thereafter as we're required to get their approval pursuant to njsa 138 b-6 we only got their approval uh August 6th 2024 once we received that approval we wrote a letter to the planning board uh seeking the extension of time so we can file the map since we're out of the 190 day requirement got it so Mr chair f m sure this would be a um my recommendation Ron's recommendation which reviewed with him would be a motion to Grant the extension of time for 190 days starting from September 1 2024 forward so the time period of the delay is put on hold so they just got their D approvals in last last month so now they now have 190 days to go forward in which they must uh record the map got so the motion is Grant the extension of time for 190 days starting September 1 forward reasonable yes okay any questions I guess I technically I have to open up to the public now not notic a beautiful uh yeah do I have a motion yeah I'll make a motion Mr Merc have a second Mr tannin house Mr Cristiano yes Mr Greenfield yes Mr leio yes Mr Mercer yes Mr Tan housee yes Mr Rebel yes councilwoman Fisher yes Miss Pike yes and chairman huster yes motion carries thank you for your time thank you yes resolution will be on the next agenda for that I appreciate it got it okay okay next is case number SD 2998 F Wadsworth Development LLC and this is for a final major subdivision hello again good evening Mr chairman and Michael Herbert of the law firm of Parker McKay on behalf of applicant Wadsworth Development LLC uh as the board is aware this is a matter that was before the board for preliminary uh there was a denial uh it was then settled uh after there was a redesign pursuant to what the board members were looking for from the preliminary application uh the settlement was approved by the board and we're now back for final uh tonight uh very simply we have uh sought to comply with all the requirements of the uh of the preliminary and the settlement which I believe we have um the uh subdivision as you can see uh from the exhibit that's being handed out is now a culdesac uh which buffers uh Michelle uh Avenue there is no there are no entrance ways there's no way of Ingress or regress from Michelle which was a main concern of the bo board uh and uh the uh we believe the site thanks to the board uh you working this out with the board we believe the site Works uh in a very in a in a much better way than it did before and that there should not be any issues with regard to Ingress and egress with me tonight I have uh one witness it is our engineer and planner uh Mr Walter Hopkin um and uh we have an exhibit list that was distributed by uh which was given to me by the the board secretary which has a uh one through uh A1 through 15 and uh and there inter office reports of B1 through B12 uh at so at this point uh I'd like to proceed with Mr Hopkin if you want to have him sworn can be sworn in oh I'm sorry can you raise your right hand sir you for a loop with that other waiver app okay do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God yes I do your full name and your uh titles that you're being qualified for as an expert sure Walter Hopkin um I'm the president of WJ engineering um I'm a professional engineer in the states of New Jersey New York Pennsylvania Maryland thank you Mr Herbert you can sit at the table there is a mic there if you want gladly are you qualified just as an engineer or a planner too the planner as well you probably I'm a licensed planner in the state of New Jersey as well thank you we'll accept your credentials thank you and I just handed out this color rendering so I marked that as a16 thank you Madam Secretary you're welcome [Applause] okay all right Mr Hopkin uh for A6 I believe it's on the easel here right here we also have up on electronically the the black black and white version of the subdivision is that the uh settlement plan for major subdivision sorry my eyes are are working uh semi semi well tonight uh so if you could just explain to the board how this matter uh Michael I I I don't mean to interrupt you but we're here for final so let's focus what items were left outstanding from preliminary to final and let's focus on that go over that and be done with it so there are some conditions associated with preliminary let's just go through them and discuss them and and we don't need to go back back through preliminary like we already approved preliminary we're here for final what are we talking about for final okay so uh there were various items left at preliminary U Mr Hopkin if you could just go over the items that were they were looking for for final that were changed yeah so there's there's a few uh the changes from the plan the board will see it looks almost identical as the last time we did add some snowm morar inlets that uh your your engineer asked for to help with um drainage along ramtown Greenville Road so to help remove some of the water from from the road there's a detention Basin access a connection uh for an overflow that's added that really um was requested from your professionals at this point it's really just dotting eyes and Crossing tees with the various fing of paperwork Deeds things like that and then there are some items uh technical items in cme's letter we would agree to comply with all of the remaining uh conditions that would be carried forward and any technical items in the CME letter Mr Hopkin is is that just a uh like an access road for cleaning out the basins or maintenance of the basins off of Michelle got and that was that was added as one of the things that has changed okay thanks Mr chairman if I could um just of note the one change that we wanted to make sure was just put on the record and this was agreed to at the prior hearing um was we requested that the discharge pipe from um infiltration B be extended um to the inlet within Michelle Boulevard so these plans reflect that but it technically then puts that storm sewer through that 100 foot buffer that was as was agreed to um and per recommendation but I did just want to note that um because otherwise there's no additional releas Bel that's being sought here um and the applicant has indicated that they agree to comply with our report um in the conditions I mean among the things that were important was that this was going to be a private road so it's identified now as such it's going to be contained within its own lot um and the balance of the conditions are either remain ongoing or have been addressed so I have nothing further at this time got it Mr chairman I don't want I don't wish to anger Miss beam any further so uh I would be happy to no I uh I I want to keep Miss beam very happy so uh it uh at that I think this matter is ready to be submitted to the board as final unless there are further questions any questions members I have a question sure I believe this is to be subject also to any conditions within the settlement agreement yes to also be complied with that would be in the resolution as well and I was going around that book very slowly that when was being that's okay need to go over it so I I I do appreciate you putting that in there yes thank you any questions from board members Jen Laura Sherry you're all good okay I will open this up to the public seeing everybody running forward all right I will close the public and I guess at this time I will entertain a motion need a motion or we need summarize I think I think's good for motion okay I'll make a motion to approve the Mr tanin house and Mr Cristiano Mr Cristiano yes Mr Greenfield yes Mr leio yes Mr Mercer yes Mr tanon housee yes Mr Rebel yes councilwoman Fisher yes Miss Pike yes and chairman huster yes motion carries applications approved thank you board members we really appreciate your time and efforts on this matter well and thank you board Professionals for your help and it's the Michael and Walter show again I believe right all right so and I I am now chasing Mr uh chairman so I will make sure that we uh do this one as quickly as possible no take your time so the second is and the final for this evening is case number SD 3013 badar LLC this is a preliminary major subdivision with ancillary variance and design waiver relief now I know where they look similar good even good evening Mr chairman again Michael I got to fix this chair I apologize uh good evening Mr chairman again Michael W Herbert of the law firm of Parker McKay on behalf of the applicant Ambassador LLC uh and we again have uh we again have color renderings to distribute to you uh this is a an application for preliminary uh major subdivision for property uh at 57 Church Road known as block 76 Lots 33 and 34 uh we have a an exhibit list that was uh prepared by the board secretary uh and again I just want to emphasize we're only looking for preliminary approval tonight not final just preliminary uh and uh we have the exhibit lists of A1 through a15 uh along with inter office reports of B1 through B21 I do ask if the board attorney could find that we have a Juris the board has jurisdiction to hear this matter and uh the the notice is appropriate even though it said preliminary and final uh the the attorney has indicated they're only seeking preliminary approval it makes no difference you have jurisdiction got it thank you m thank thank you you can [Applause] have you can look uh let me just switch here Mr chairman and board professionals I apologize for not sending uh the email over I'll make sure that that doesn't happen again I'm going to mark this one as a16 as well colored render thank you okay um um again Mr chairman I have before you you called it the Michael and Walter show I have before you again Walter Hopkin our engineer and planner in this matter uh I would ask that he be sworn and we can then qualify him raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got yes I do and your name again and your titles W Hopkin um owner of w engineering I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey I'm also a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey and I have been accepted by this board good to go thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr uh Mr Hopkin uh the sub the subdivision that we're applying for if you could just lay it out for the board as to what we're doing sure it's a 16.7 Acre Site it's on the south side of Church Road um west of the intersection with Kent just just west of tyoga um it's there's a home there with the address of 57 Church Road it's block 76 slots 33 and 34 and it's located in your ar2 Zone it's surrounded by um single family homes uh very similar in nature and use as what is there and what will be proposed what is being proposed are six new homes new single family homes um excuse me let me take a step back what is there is a single family home with access directly owned to Church Road it's got kind of a little circular driveway there are various buildings throughout the site uh which are all proposed to be removed with the exception of the existing home um and that home will remain so what is proposed are six new approximately 1 acre lots uh we're utilizing a cluster provision for this and the existing home will be retained with a 9.19 acre um lot which will be restricted for open space all the new home homes will have access to a new road which uh connects to Church Road an rsis compliant culdesac curb and sidewalk on both sides uh and all homes will have adequate parking pursuant to rsis two-car garage uh and the 75 foot long driveway uh the homes will the existing home will continue to uh remain and access Church Road directly around uh along Church Road we are maintaining 100ft buffer uh on the north side of the um excuse me on the south side or maybe consider it the the the west side of the proposed home will maintain the existing vegetation ve um supplement it and have 100 foot buffer on the other side on the east side uh the house will remain and the house will be uh within your required 100 foot um Street buffer uh for which we would seek relief the remainder of the site does does have a minimum of 50ft buffer remaining uh a lot of it most of it has existing vegetation and we'll also ask for relief from um from supplementing that bit excuse me not from supplementing it but from providing either a fence or a burm because essentially we would be removing vegetation to propose vegetation and we just suggest that we work with your with your board's professionals to come up with an adequate um screening to comply with the spirit of your of your ordinance have you reached out to Sher to discuss this we have n so obviously that's something that we recommend before you guys show up here every single time um and there are definitely areas yes it's vegetated there are definitely areas that are sparse yes and you definitely need to work with her to make sure that she's satisfied with whatever you come up with agreed we would accept that as a conditional preliminary and and absolutely have that meeting prior to returning for final and Mr chairman our apology for not reaching out ahead of time that should have been done and we did not but we will make sure it's taken care of and and what I would just note Mr chairman is part of their relief that they're seeking tonight is that they're not meeting the required replacement trees so they have 2.1 Acres of clearing and they were planting about 137 trees so again should the board go to move tonight I don't recommend that we Grant Woodland management nor that waiver at this time because that should have been something that would have been resolved got it and they're also asking for relief of the buffer for the existing house on the site thank you so Mr chairman uh if uh we again we'll reach out for the tree the board's tree expert uh work through what can be done at the site and as far as the waiver goes if you do Grant if you decide to Grant preliminary we'll make sure that we come back with either a fully compliant plan for Woodlands or we'll ask for a waiver at final if that's if that's okay with the board and the waiver uh goes with the Cameo that will make the contribution rather than1 side yeah and again the waiver would include a contribution if we do apply for it right what on the map what are what's WQ UB and what what is that water quality Basin oh storm water it's a storm water management infiltration Basin didn't go through my acronym bank I apologize I'm sorry D's got some real good ones uh you you have yours and we have ours okay so in addition to this there'll be um a uh on that topic a private uh homeowners association which will own and maintain the um store War management system in the basins uh we believe it meets all D and how requirements there are of course some technical issues that cme's raised that we would agree to comply with as any condition uh there is also in and I'd like to thank the board's professionals we've had several trc's and they've really kind of helped us refine the design of this and one of the things that uh they suggested was that the stmt management uh basins be tied to an inlet down the road um which we would agree to do so if for whatever reason the basins aren't functioning the way that they should be they'll have a positive relief um the home does the area does not have uh sewer or public water so these will be serviced by um private Wells and um individual septic systems which would be um um any condition of approval we've done the soil's work it's certainly um capable of supporting um septic systems this area and our office designs um it's one of our Specialties we design a lot of septic systems uh the street lighting was proposed um your board's professionals I guess have made us aware of of a of a requested light fixture that um the the town's requesting and we would agree to change the light fixture and make sure that we meet with the the lighting levels that uh are requested U there is Landscaping proposed throughout it sounds like we're going to have to have a meeting with um with Sherry and try to improve upon that would certainly agree to that as well um that's really the the the summary of the of the um um what's being proposed tonight Mr chair uh just a question over here um regarding the property that's wooded that's around the development is that going to maintain be maintained as a farm so uh it's being suggested that I believe it'd be open space rather than a farm at this time so it would be maintain mained uh as it is and I guess restricted to further clearing so can I ask you a question in terms of the calculations so you're using part of that lot as your buffer right correct if you subtract the area of that buffer do you meet the 20% the 20 the open space lot averaging requirements require 20% be in the large lot so if you take the buffer out does the balance of it comply I don't I don't know the answer to that so that's definitely something that we're going to need to know before we act on this so we're we're talking that the eastern and the Western strips yes got it it's part of the back lock right and the back Lots being left as open space correct but there's no access from any other points so if I may um so there's this is the existing uh home so that will there will be a lot associated with that and then the lot will continue along the buffer include the area in the back and then the buffer along this side as well so the back piece is not going to be disturb correct and how how is that Lo how is that designated is that going to be so let me understand this I I I apologize so this back lot and the buffer is associated with the existing house that's where I was going with this that's exactly where I was going so is it is it going to be part of the existing house or is that going to be part of the the homeowners association the existing house I don't know that that's I don't know that that's why I that what would be the benefit to that if it's going to be left in open space why not why not deed it to the homeowners association well they can't access it because there in my opinion that leaves a responsibility to one person rather than some entity which this this size uh may be neglected okay just so that I don't I don't understand all the rules and regulations but how does that how does designated open space today I'm looking ensure that it stays as open space and perpetuity we would place a conservation easement upon it and what I I what is that what is that to a person it cannot I apologize it cannot be built upon and does that mean that that's something that gets recorded in the deed at the county so transfer of ownership no one no one can say hey I got all these extra Acres let me go let me go clear them and and make a dirt track sure and as as the board member just so the board members understand I I too I represent a lot of I work for a lot of towns I work for a lot of boards we have found that these HOAs when you have the HOA in charge of the open space no one does anything it's it's a real problem to enforce is is is very difficult for the town to do so so what we're proposing here and this is something I've always advocated in my towns is to have the the present home on the property be responsible for maintaining all of that open space uh and that way you if you have a problem you've got one person to talk to you don't have a homeowners association that maybe goes away way or is not constituted properly and so forth I mean we we've we've all seen stories of how that occurs here you've got one person responsible there's a problem that one person has to take care of I I don't necessarily disagree with the concept but Jen let me ask you this question just want I have a sidebar conversation with our professionals if you don't mind so how how is very good at maintaining open space we've got we've spent a lot the taxpayers have spent a ton of money in preserving a lot of open space around the town corre so I I don't think anybody would disagree that having more open space preserved in some way shape or form is okay then how do we quantify that in perpetuity do we have to physically go out there and count every single tree anded every single tree to make sure that that that if a tree dies they replace it they can never cut them I mean how do we open space doesn't mean that every tree is preserved okay so it's open space it's conservation but I have a concern about the fact that that lot is connected to the existing home my recommendation would be that that home be subdivided and an acre in an acre lot consistent with the balance of the lots and then the balance of the property be put in a conservation easement because let's be honest a single homeowner could go then back in there and clear the lot yeah exactly which we don't want I get I get you could put whatever Provisions you want but we've been here a long time people do whatever they want on their forgiveness that's the issue sorry two people talking exactly I I agree with you they're going to ask for forgiveness instead of permission I I don't think that attributing that conservation lot to that home is a good idea so then does it make sense to convey it to the homeowners association or to the town I think the town because there is a part of the property on the other side that does touch Church which gives the town access to the property without but that's the buffer Brian so like they can't use that for Access there's going to be a burm and all kinds of stuff in there if if there's area which it looks like there is in the front of that right no but I meant we also need to get past the use because understand what was testified to but they're also calling this a farm lot which means if it's governed under right to farm they can they can come in and clear it and these new homes are not going to have the 50ft buffer we would have required to separate from an active farm so I mean that is a critical issue because as labeled on the plans as labeled on the exhibit that they handed out tonight it's called The Farm lot so do want so I I don't know if this is Farmland qualified currently this lot but I they're going to have to lose that designation does anybody have any ideas or do we want to take a f minute potty break and then you guys can mull it over and we can come back I mean my recommendation is that the applicant take this back and we come back in then on another day because these are Big Ticket items I don't think we're going to resolve this over a rest break you know like they need to resolve what they're going to do with that how they're going to manage it are they going to separate that from that existing home if they separate it from the existing home does the area comply with the 20% like there's a lot of questions associated with how this is going to go can you describe the 20% to so they're using this open land subdivision provision which requires 20% of the area to be preserved in either agricultural conservation which is this back lot but the back lot includes the the existing home and the benefit of that is so that they can have an extra home with a on a smaller lot instead of the two AC lot they can they can uh cluster down to acre lots which they've done and all those lots are compliant with that I'm not saying that they're not but this back lot and how it's going to be used and how it's going to be accessed and what's going to happen there there's a big open-ended question and honestly I don't think we're going to get that answer today I think that we should they should go back resolve these issues and come back at a later date that's my recommendation and if the existing house was removed would that would then would then they comply with the I don't know that's my point answ they need to figure out how they're going to handle it and then come back to us with you know whether it's a farm lot and how they're going to access that farm lot because the way it's laid out now they would have to come through the buffer which is not out and like you said you need 50 ft in a f correct and then is there going to be a 50ft buffer on the back of the culdesac lot there there's a lot of items that need to be resolved before we can even act on preliminary so we're talk we're talking two completely separate requirements if it's open space versus Farm 100% I think if this is a farm lot it's not an open space dedication and then it's not compliant and then perhaps we don't even have jurisdiction got it so I I honestly think need to figure out what they want to do and then come back to us at a later date with a more refined plan with this issue I would represent though I'm not supportive of this big loop around lot being attached to an existing house like we don't generally and quite honestly I don't even think the stormw management rules allow for that but so that has to be resolved and how they're handling the back lot has to be resolved and this is not something that we're going to resolve today over a break I think we should put a pin in it they need to go back resolve what they need to do and then come back at a later date with a more refined okay plan thank you for the clarification Mr chairman uh we when we first brought this matter in that's why it says Farm lot we proposed it as a farm we've been working with the the board professionals again they've been terrific as they always are here uh and you know we want to make the town the board and our and your professionals happy so when that is why when we uh were looking at it today and there was a concern about access to the farm and all we said fine we'll we'll dedicate it as open space my idea to have it as one lot uh to have that one lot be able to take care of uh of of the full area as as I was arguing before and that's why we came to you today saying okay not Farm lot even though it says Farm lot on there we're willing to change that it's easily you know it's easily corrected and dedicated as open space I I understand the worry about you know homeowner going back there and and plowing it under and Mr tanon house I'm sure has seen some Bad actors we're not a bad actor but uh we had one a number of years ago right over yeah and we're not suggesting they're a bad actor at all I'm just suggesting that there's a lot of things and then sh don't know you know you buy just brought up a point too that talks about the open lands and that under 2B if you're in the ar2 which you are it says 50% needs to be dedicated to the open space not 20% so there's definitely some things that need to be worked out before the board gets put in a position of having tax % definitely the 50 with inclined to Grant relief at least we have that yeah and and look if we're at 50% % will have to be you know begging for you know we'll have to be asking for Relief uh and you that's we want to make sure that we comply and again trying to make everyone happy here and you dedicate some open space for the town you know this as as Mr town house has said very well this is a town that really is serious about their open space they've done a great job with it and we want to be part of that oh so so Mike what I'm hearing from you is Farm is completely off the table if if we look we want to make this work and whatever we can do to make this work is what we will do think to deal with this today Nick it's it's all about the buffer and that's going to be dictating it I professionals will handle that I I honestly I just feel like there needs to be a lot of clean up before Laura myself and Sherie get put in a position of giving you guys advice fair enough so I really feel like they need to clean up how this is going to go and then come back at a later date I think in the absence I mean even if the board thinks about the application we heard prior right that was among lot averaging um that parcel the open space parcel was a separate parcel um dedicated to the HOA and I think what the concern here is is whether whether we got past the farming or not the farming the fact that we're encompassing lot 33.018 Acres right right but that includes the home site as well so is it over 50% maybe maybe not but how are we really going to restrict that when we have a dedicated land to an HOA that is deed restricted well it's easy lot one for example can't be touched I think the concern here is how we would implement the intent of our ordinance so the benefit that they're getting by creating smaller lots and doing less impervious and not being straight up A2 2 acre lots is that we have this preservation that was the whole idea behind this and my concern is you know if we got past the farm or not the farm how do we ensure that this area is not going to be um clear cut clearcut or used for a different purpose other than what it is supposed to be which is retention of open land woods and I I just one to think the ho way you were saying would maintain that or take care of that correct no you're not very confident in that right we we were arguing for the one the one lot managing property right so but you're but the ho these basins okay that are on this property I'm going to tell you right now they're not going to work because I work for public works and we get handed these all the time I'm sorry I missed part of the the basins oh the basins I apologize they they don't work I get handed these all the time from development and we we have to end up taking care of them and fixing them they don't work so the HOA is not going to take care of the property the back they're not going to take care of the basins right so why should I get stuck maintaining these because they're all over town and I got to maintain all of them sure so what are we going to do about that as well well again we're we're agreeing to maintain them the HOA would have to maintain but you just don't you don't even have confidence in the HOA that they're going to maintain Lots I I do have confidence I agree with you I I don't get it like you have no faith in it at all I I I do for basins I don't so much as the overall I don't for basins I disagree because you know what I've seen it I'm sure you have I see it every day and I'm out there working yeah and again we're trying to make we want your board professionals to be confident and happy in this application we want the board to be I want your HOA to handle those bases sure and we're we're you know we're do we're putting in a sidewalk even though there's no side walks on the whole Road we're putting in uh sewer extensions down wait that has nothing to do with what he's saying he's talking about I'm just trying to just what I'm trying to argue not argue but I'm trying to state is we're trying to do everything that we're being asked to do that that's all I'm saying I I I get it but like I feel like we're like redesigning on the Fly and it's putting Laura sh and I in a position where we cannot provide you with the adequate counsel that you require from us I feel like we need to put a in this it needs to be carried they need to resolve these issues come back with a clear-cut plan so that we're in a position to say to you we're comfortable we're not comfortable whatever but at this point we're not in that position to say that okay and so like I understand the position that the applicant is putting forth I just feel like there's too many uncertainties they need to go back sharpen their pencils figure out get the rear property resolved get that one lot out of that property and then go back and and and give us the information that we need but we're not going to get that tonight so I I understand the the position that the applicant is taking and I take no exception to what they're saying but at this point we don't have the information in front of us to provide you with what you expect from us in an application before you make no and I appreciate that and I and I'm not arguing against Miss Ste or Miss Newman at all I I'm not I just wanted to lay out where we are with this application as well and then we're trying to comply and if if they would like to for us to come back and have another TRC with them where we can go over and try to get it to I think I would too you um no no and and I would I I would as well again I'm I'm a board attorney for most no understood so uh we'd be glad to do do that we just want to make sure we have everything set for the next the next meeting yeah yeah I think it would put everybody a little bit at ease and make everyone more comfortable in in you know Mr chair might might I add something sure so from the legal perspective the designation as a farm lot is an issue because of use and that would deprive this board of jurisdiction if it stays that way so while they're figuring out the issues about who should own who should maintain and how it should be subdivided off if that's decided to be the way we're going subdivide off the house lot and leave the rest of the lot and whoever gets it homeowner Town however you want to do it but the application might need to be amended specifically to state that they are going to forgo the farm lot designation this way we maintain jurisdiction if that if that isn't done the notice that they gave here for for for this hearing is is not able to be carried forward to a new date so you know you've done notice I assume they want to come back and still use that notice we would announce a new date here but again uh if something changes significantly there needs to be new notice anyway so it that doesn't really matter and as to questions about the Imp perpetuity a conservation easement or a deed of of conservation to the town will work to protect or should work to protect that there is no clear cutting of trees and it is a forever uh forever requirement it's a Perpetual when it is done for a public purpose so the conservation easement should have those words done for a public purpose because the major case on this issue was uh in Denville where the the owner that held the major part of the land 15 years later wanted to subdivide further and that is what you don't want to happen and there was a big dispute because the public had a right to maintain that because that was the promise at the first hearing and the first subdivision was we have a right to maintain that's a public purpose you you can't change it if it was given for the public good which is what you're doing here I I actually litigated that whole issue well there you go we don't need to get into the details get into this like FC it yeah needs to be carried Eileen what are we looking for as far as dates go just uh September 19th is definitely out SE October 10th has one application already scheduled and October 17th has one and I have November 7th and December 5th with nothing but I don't know how much time you need why is it the 10 and uh I think it's a Jewish holiday or something yeah rash sha so what are my options I mean how long is it going to take you to figure this out rise the toit and are you doing another TRC or anything yeah think I would say it's a rough for me anyway yes uh I think the 10th will be cutting a little bit close to 17th yeah 17 again oober whatever Miss beam wants me to do I will do no we should go to no so we're going to go with the 17th oober yes October 17th e October 17th are you asking for the announcement of the date for your reappearance back here sir yes okay sure so with the board's permission um the applicant is going to pursue the uh issues that were raised today and the next hearing on this matter will be on October 17 2024 at 7:00 p.m. in this location and if any further adjournment happens it will be announced at that meeting if they need more time but right now you should Mark that in your calendar to come back that's for members of the public it's carried with no further notice no carried with no further notice you have to mark it in your calendar if you want to return all right thank you thank you Mr chairman I appreciate everyone's time thanks very much Mr Herbert I just need an extension of time from you on the record yes Mr chairman uh on behalf of the applicant bad R LLC we Grant the board an extension of time to October 31st thank you thanks Mike thank you Mr good night uh Jen anything master plan now no I we're we're really not going to have any master plan items until next year when we're really going to like delve into the housing element on the next affordable housing and I'm assuming there's no reason to go into executive session so I will entertain a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn I'll second thank you