##VIDEO ID:GTr3wfMBYug## [Music] good evening everybody iene could you open up with the opening statement Township of how Zoning Board of adjustment Monday December 16 2024 regular meeting I hereby declare this meeting of the how Township zoning board to be open adequate notice having been given pursuant to New Jersey open public meeting in act in the following manner first on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was mailed to the ASB Park Press and the Star Ledger second on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on December 11th 2023 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the how Township Municipal Building 4567 Route 9 H Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety please be advised that this facility designed with two emergency exits at the front and the rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on Howell Township TV 77 this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues of what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and the deorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times thank you thank you can we have a roll call please Mr burillo is excused Mr caner here Mr Hughes here Mr Rosco here Mr Stanton is excused Mr Ryan is excused miss scotson here and Mr merens here you have a quorum could I ask everybody that please stand for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all okay the next order of business Andy could you swear on our professionals you swear the testimony you'll give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you God I do please state your name Nam for the record Charles Kliff Jennifer beam Sher SPO your professionals are sworn Mr chairman thanks Andy uh next order of business approval of minutes first one will be regular meeting November 4th 2024 elgible voters are Billo caner Hughes Mertens Orosco Brian scotson could I have a motion I'll make a motion second okay can I have a roll call Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Rosco yes Miss scotson yes and Mr Mertens yes minutes approved okay the next uh minute to be approved is regular meeting November 25th 2024 elgible voters burillo Hughes Mertens Ryan and scotson can I have a motion I'll make a motion second roll call please Mr Hughes yes Miss scotson yes and Mr Mertens yes minutes approved okay any vouchers no vouchers tonight okay correspondence I have one thing for correspondence then uh Mr Pape has one thing to say um but case number ba 23-4 omicon realy LLC will be rescheduled with notice to March 10th 2025 with an extension granted to the board through April 1st 2025 okay thank you um then have the extension of time that's good okay anybody for that uh case number ba 2304 Amicon realy LLC that is being carried to March 10th 2025 expiration is April 1st okay and Mr P you had good evening Mr chairman members of the board Kenneth Pape on behalf of MERS pecker and Brawn they're the third application on your agenda our clients advised me that they have elected to withdraw their application without prejudice they do not intend to go forward with the application and it can now be removed from the board's agenda okay thank you thank you so anybody here in the public for case number ba2 2-11 that case is officially being withdrawn at this time okay do we have anything else okay next is resolutions uh first one is case number 23-18 Cranberry Road Holdings LLC eligible voters burillo caner Hughes Mertens Orosco and Ryan can I have a motion motion motion by Mr Hughes second by Jose roll call please Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Rosco yes and Mr Mertens uh yes resolution approved okay the next case number ba 24-7 1805 us9 LLC eligible vter burillo caner Hughes Mertens Orosco and Ryan do I have a motion I'll make a motion to pass that I have a second second okay roll call Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Rosco yes Miss scotson yes and Mr Ms yes resolution okay go ahead resolution approved okay one thing is I believe Amar you missed out on the last vote so officially we need to okay you're okay okay the first application before the board tonight is case number ba20 d118 Ford Plains Partners LLC type use and variants to construct One Flex warehouse and one self storage building the description is application of Ford ples Partners LLC is applicants and for Ford planes Partners LLC lot 6.01 and 1499 holding company LLC lots 15.03 and 15.04 warehouse and mezzan office space and one four story self storage building and storm water management system on premise known as block 137 lot 6.01 and 15 03 and 15.04 Ford Plains Road this is a facated application as the applicant is only seeking a use variant approval at this time this application was partially heard on August 26th 2024 when it was carried to September 9th 2024 with no further notice the application was previous heard on September 9th 2024 when it was carried to October 28th 2024 eligible voters are burillo caner Hughes Mertens Ryan Orosco and scotson expiration is December 31st 2024 good chairman if I may yes go ahead my name is Ron garosi I'm an attorney I represent TF properties and I'm appearing on behalf of my client as an obor's attorney in this case okay uh I have a comment to make or rather perhaps in the form of a motion I've read the transcripts it's my position that I recognize that the applicant has a right to bifurcate his case whereas he hears first the use variance which is why we're here this evening that at a later point in time uh there's a site plan hearing it's my position that this in fact is one of those exceptions to that rule because it is in fact a complicated case there are numerous issues with regard to parking setbacks and the like and I would make my argument to the board that this is a case that should not be bifurcated the site plan and the you expence should be heard together in one hearing that's my position okay uh Andy could you uh chime in on this yes Mr chairman uh my suggestion is and Mr gazari called me this afternoon to let me know of his position um is that he confirms this position in writing articulating the cases he's relying on and then I my recommendation is the hearing go forward and then you know I'll make a legal recommendation that you know I don't know if we're finishing tonight I don't think I tend to not think so at least not vote but the so I would with okay well I'm I'm going to concur everybody on board would like to just who does he represent yeah Mr gazari who's your client you said TF something TF properties and T TF properties and where are they located Visa V the sub property if you know they own properties in how Township got understood but are they on Ford planes or they just hold properties in house they own properties in P Township okay so I I I appreciate your comment and do we have want to set up a time schedule for that well again let's see how the evening goes what I said let's see how the evening goes yeah I mean my understanding is my colleague and my friend is not going to conclude this evening right so I don't know when the board is going to hear this next is my point though so I don't if why right I don't if we don't finish tonight I'm not sure when it's going to get scheduled yeah we only have five members tonight and the most important thing is I would like to get testimony on because we have a lot of backlog with cases coming up right and I don't see any reason why we can at least get the testimony on I understand that and I appreciate it I know that I'm getting into the game late I could only have one request I take one vacation a year that's from December the 26th until January the 5th that's the only well that won't be an issue Mr gazer pardon me we don't our next meeting the reorganizations meeting is not till after January 5th okay fine so you'll be fine I thank you for the I'll get back to you thank you for the courtesies of hearing me okay thank you you're welcome before Mr gazowsky leaves I we had the opportunity to speak beforehand we do have four witnesses that we're presenting this evening and I'm optimistic that we'll be able to present all four witnesses to the board with the understanding that cross-examination of those Witnesses would occur after the fourth witness testifies I've assured Mr gazari that if he chose to leave early that there we we will be back with our team when you reschedule us and cross examin cross examination opport will be made available to him at a future meeting we will we will not shut down our hearing without that um that's the one advantage of being an old man everybody feels sorry for you thank you Merry Christmas not feeling sorry I'm not going to tell yeah no I I do want to get everybody on uh testify tonight and Mr CH I have one further um I'm I personally believe that this application is the the poster child of what should be a bifurcated application the when we present the bifurcated application to you we continuously are responsive to your board members and your professionals request for any supplemental information you know we've been working on this application for believe it or not seven years we've been working with the board for approximately two we've had three hearings the number of times that we have met with your staff to update drainage or landscaping or lighting so that the use variance application is Meaningful um it's we've done it many many times so I if there's an opportunity given by your counselor to Mr gazari to do a brief on his position I would welcome the opportunity to do the same I would like to provide you with what I believe is the applicable law and I do appreciate that Mr Bayer has ruled that we can proceed this evening yes okay all that as the Preamble now do you have any new professionals testifying tonight that we haven't sworn in Christine kaone I believe was here when you swore in some time ago but for safe if you would like I know that Mr Nick federis was I know that um LS ugar was yeah I know he W yeah because I mean we can wait till she comes up to testify and we'll do it then okay okay so we can move along not not to this is not a summation the summation isn't going to happen until all the witnesses have testified and all the examination has been placed before the board but by way of a just a little summary of where we are this is our third hearing before the board we are asking the board for a use variance to permit two uses on the property a self storage building which actually is a permitted use but it's not permitted if it's on a property with another use and then the flex building which in itself is a use variant so we're asking for this board to consider variants really for those two uses we have um in we initially presented the plan to the board the board and the board Professionals in August had a number of comments we made certain revisions to the plans at the September meeting there were considerable comments about the size of the modules the number of doors and there was a significant request from the board to redesign the site so that both uses functioned in dependently so that the traffic associated with self storage and the traffic associated with the flex building were separated from each other and we've we've done that before we came before the board our clients did two things that were fairly extraordinary one they directed that are the the design of their project would have no access to Fort Plains Road Fort Plains Road we have hundreds of feet of access and there's no restriction and there's no sight distance issues but we have they have told us and we have incorporated into the plan complete closure of Fort Plains Road not only is there no access there is a fireman's access Chief Pro now asked that we have emergency one emergency access but no General access and the entire perimeter is burned in landscape that was a fairly extraordinary offer the second thing is our clients negotiated and successfully purchased from the owners of the KFC properties a right of way so that they could build a road from their property out to Route n these were two I think extraordinary things that were done early on before we came before the board and by way of summ summary that's where we are those are the that's the we've made the revisions that were requested at the September meeting we carry forward all the commitments that we've made to date and with your permission Mr chair Mr zner is is ready to begin his presentation will be the physical changes to the site that were done in response to comments from the board and professionals it'll be that his testimony will be followed by our architect's testimony who will testify to the changes that he made to the buildings and then the next fact witness is Nick federi who is our traffic expert who will um review with the board the revised circulation and optimistically Mr chair will'll get to Christine Kone and have all four Witnesses testify this evening okay good that's good to hear ready to begin yes let's go thank you Mr zner I remind you that you're under oath and I remind the board that his qualifications have been made part of the record as a professional engineer if you could let the board it officer know what exhibits you'd like to use for your testimony and then I'm going to ask in a narrative to identify the revisions that you've made to your plants sure uh if I could I believe it's exhibit a29 it's a a revised color rendering that's it wonderful so this is an exhibit it's labeled site rendering uh it's a updated version of what we've been working with at prior hearings it's a a colored uh version of the site plan for clarity and I what I had thought maybe I would do is talk about what's changed and then we could go to a sort of what hasn't changed so some of the key revisions in this plan and one of the big elements that was requested of us was to separate out the uses and if you recall the two buildings to the left those are the flex space buildings the building to the right on this plan towards Route 9 Route 9 is going up and down along the right hand edge of this plan that's the self storage building we've talked about those before the buildings themselves in terms of footprint and there'll be discussion on what's changed in them but that location those are buildings are in the same spot and the extents are the same uh We've created a separation between them and you can see in a darker green there uh there's uh storm water basin there had always been a storm water basin in that location we shifted it a little bit in order to create uh two separate access pieces one around the self storage building on the right uh and then one on the left those were linked in Prior plan and so they're now separated by storm water basin ability to landscape and create a real division there a little bit hard to see in that a darker line below that storm water basin is a emergency access similar to what had given us access for the fire chief to Fort Plains Road would give emergency access between the two sites uh it seemed like a logical addition is that going to be gated and they'll just have a key to get in KNX okay KN on the uh Flex space side to the left um there'll be some discussion on how those build how the building interior was modified one of the key elements and is shown in the plan now was discussed previously was that each unit would have simply one loading door per unit and that's identified probably hard to to see clearly here in this addition of the plan but it is in the revised plans also in this if you recall there was some discussion on um how potential contractors in the units would use the yard and where they would have equipment say a landscape contractor in a prior addition there was a bigger turnaround area above uh and towards Route nine of those buildings and we modified that space to show both vehicle siiz spaces and oversized spaces and I know it was a condition that was discussed and I believe would I'm sure it would continue there' be no outdoor storage but the board members had wanted clearly to have some defined and designated spaces say if a contractor had a truck and trailer or say a plumber had a fleet of three pickup trucks there was space to park those H so we've created that okay on the self storage building uh it's a very much a similar loop around the building it's still one way on this plan would be below it at the back of the building that one way Loop continues around we've uh created additional vehicle parking space around that Loop so while we met parking before that was as one overall site so now with two separate sites and I'll go through the numbers in a moment but we had worked to make sure each individual parcel had the appropriate and requisite number of parking spaces for vehicles and each does uh in that in a prior plan uh you look at the the flex space building where it sort of has an angled side to it middle of the property just above it there had been vehicle spaces there they were eliminated uh there's a shown now a offloading area for a truck or a trailer uh those vehicle spaces though have been more than made up for with the addition on each side reconfiguration uh again probably easier just to describe here this was talked about previously at each entrance to Route N9 there would be a proposed Monument sign identifying each individual use and that use alone there would be two Monument signs along Route nine and they would not be campus wide they'd be for the individual uses and lastly as an element that changed here there was discussion on fencing and we had added previously a fence towards Fort Plains uh along the back of our parking lot as a extra barrier beyond the buffer line and it had ended if you recall where we had the emergency access well we've revised that so it continues past the emergency access gate uh and then actually runs up on the plan to a point where it would hit a retaining wall so that whole parcel is fully encapsulated it was a good comment by one of the board members that had ended too early and we've Revis that what type of fence is that that would be a vinyl privacy fence you said vinyl and six foot high correct six we yes so a couple of key elements uh that maybe I would say remain the same in terms of what we've seen and talked about before we've talked I think a fair amount about the effort we've gone through for storm water management uh and storm water management effectively Remains the Same one Basin as I we' not created space between the two buildings get actually gets slightly larger we have more space for it there uh but essentially the storm water management stays the same uh the fact of how circulation operates in each side while we've separated them uh and we'll have a traffic engineer talk about it but in my opinion still good in safe circulation uh we have the two emergency access points talked about that previously uh Mr papen talked in uh his opening statement about our separation to Fort Plains Road that remains unchanged we other than the emergency access there's no connection and if you recall we looked at a couple of different aspects of this and you can see in this rendering called on the right half those are mature existing trees that we propose to preserve uh and then where there were some lower uh newer trees grow starting to grow in we were going to construct to the left side a BM and then landscape that BM we worked with Miss sh Sher spau on some concepts for that uh footprint of development so you know we talked before it's a 34 acre parcel approximately what we're looking at here is 14 of those 34 acres and that footprint uh within which we're working has not changed um then I have a couple things you you let me know when you're ready for me sure I was just going to go to some of the actual specific numbers on the parking because I sort of changed I think that would be appropriate so to run through some numbers on the parking on the flex space side we have parking approximate to office space in the flex building below those buildings that's 82 car spaces That Remains the Same I talked about the addition of call them sort of Fleet spaces for pickup trucks there's 25 of those added to the plan and 14 oversized spaces uh those are 12 feet wide and deeper to accommodate say a landscape truck um and then the 15 were the number of spaces we eliminated which I referenced a little bit earlier on the flex space side uh there's a you know requirement of around 70 or of 75 spaces uh we certainly exceed that not even including the what I'll call Fleet spaces the 82 office spaces meets that requirement on the Self Storage side uh there always were and remain five call them dedicated loading spaces these are car spaces uh three were under the building and one was at the end those remain for people to pull in and unload from their car uh there's 15 vehicle spaces right along Route nine those remain the same and then throughout the loop there are 18 added vehicle spaces and this gets us exactly to the required number of 33 so that that complies as it stands on its own those are goes through the parking numbers I don't know if there was anything else you wanted to there are a couple of points I think that we should revisit along the way in August and September there were some questions from the board and staff about sanitary sewer Serv service and also about portable water and water pressure and I we previously provided to the board that there is a private sewer line that runs through the property it is privately owned we have been in contact with them that you had U reviewed the the the size of the line and had advised the board that you found that the size of the line was more than adequate to handle the anticipated flows if you could just restate that for the board so the U for our site there's more than adequate capacity for what we're proposing uh then we had also looked at through an easement on the property there's an 8 in sewer line out to Route n uh that has capacity we had done a little bit of an estimate on that 8 inch line we know what's connected to it sort of guessing at what might connect to it in the future but as a framework over 420 single family homes could be connected to that line so there is efficient significant capacity available if people in the future uh long route n other properties wish to connect to that line there was also some concern about the water supply that's available and whether the pressure in the that line would be adequate for the purposes that we're asking this board to consider and we you the board will be reminded that the buildings are suppressed with a fire suppression system so if you could let the board know what you did in that regard with New Jersey American Water Company sure and I guess I even start to remind the board and this came up previously Fort Plains Road was recently repaved uh but the applicant had worked with actually both of these utility companies to ensure that stubs were brought to the property line prior to Paving so if something were to move forward there's no need to cut the new pavement uh it's actually a 16in waterline which is pretty significant in Fort Plains Road and New Jersey American was able to provide us actual pressure and flow data so essentially uh you go through a test process where you look at what's the current pressure and then you run the water out of it say at a fire hydrant and when it's operating it's sort of a high flow to simulate fire usage where does that pressure drop to and as you might guess for a 16inch line there's a very significant flow and pressure uh and we have the numbers from them and it would support these buildings and that was you initiated that correct you reached out to New Jersey American water and asked that they run that float test we did yes okay so that was a request that was made by the board of the applicant previously one other aspect that when we were looking at the two Flex buildings there's a separation between the two buildings and I know that there was a concern that if we left that as pavement it would possibly get misused so if you could describe to the board what you have done with the area between the two Flex buildings so and even a little bit more in detail I think we talked previously we create had a separation between those we had pushed that to 25 ft at the request of the uh fire chief uh but in that previous plan it was shown as being paved and I think we' committed to this at the prior hearing it's now shown more like you would see in terms of an island at each end with curb and it would be a grass or landscaped area supplementing the testimony of of Mr Zar with regard to parking at the last meeting the applicant stated on the record and made a commitment that there would be no outdoor storage at all and that all of the parking stalls that are on site would be dedicated to specific tenants and each specific number of parking stalls dedicated to a tenant in its lease and those would be the only parking stalls that that tenant would be permitted to use and that would be the way that we would control the use of the parking stalls on on the site those commitments were made at the last meeting and are restated this evening I have nothing further of Mr zner other than to ask if he had the opportunity to review the most recent report that came from Mr conliff and and are you comfortable that you as you have in the past can you confirm that you can and you will address the technical requirements of Mr Kliff in the event that we move forward with site planner I was able to read the most recent letter and I'm confident If This Were to move forward we could satisfy all of his concerns and if it's not inappropriate if I could ask if Mr K could comment if if that is adequate if there's anything specifically that he wishes Lewis to address let's do that now Charlie um yeah so just want to ask some more clarifying questions with some of the representations that were made on the record so so there's 14 oversized fleet vehicles they're 10t by 30 or you said they're 12T by 30 I believe they're 12 foot by 30 Dimension that I have shown on the pl says 10 foot and I would stand corrected okay and there so we're we're saying that's contractor like a landscaper like a pickup truck with a trailer open or close trailer or box truck's going to be parked there what what's really contemplated so the way I had envisioned it and again was trying to be responsive to boards had raised this concern which made sense was to create longer spaces not with a necessarily specific end user but imagining just what you've talked about a landscaper who has a pickup truck with a trailer uh they could park the trailer there or if someone had a u sort of an open uh like the landscapers often have smaller size dump trucks where they you know can move landscape materials around in the back those are a longer vehicle uh this would be a perfect space for that and then there's to the north of that 16 9 by9 spaces and then to the south of that 9 9 by 19 spaces that's what we're saying are for fleet vehicles correct so this wouldn't be like if uh say like an AJ Perry or someone wanted to come operate from this site those wouldn't accomodate like a like a large utility van or truck or what what you know that's really like a passenger vehicle 9 by9 there's a dimension just like a regular car space so in my sort of consideration for that I imagine that being like a plumber's use or a carpenter's use a pickup truck a van okay and we discussed I think at the last hearing per the fire bureau's request and recommendation all circulation Drive aisles will be striped as fire Lanes right so they have the ability ped to come on and enforce if someone was parking in a fire lane um now I don't know if you touched on this too you did make revisions or the architect did make revisions to the flex building to the number of loading doors right so previously we had a comment in our letter about the applicant exceeding the 1 per 7500 uh loading areas for for gross FLW area can you talk about that what's been changed or is the architect going to talk about about that well both yeah I'll let the architect talk about the building in terms of the interior and setup of the building but uh there were a few units that had multiple doors previously and that's been changed so uh at each unit individual unit there's simply one overhead door for uh larger Vehicles okay and kind of along the lines of that too I had some questions regarding the site plan layout for the um self storage building I think the arch chitectural renderings that have been provided show a fewer number of rollup doors for that building whereas a site plan seemed to show more the architect will provide testimony I guess it's a representation that the architectural plans are what's going to govern as far as entryways to the building yes okay and then Flex base end so that's on the Southeast corner of the building A2 so there's no rollup door to that but there's a loading zone on the east side of the 30 foot Drive aisle so scroll up John yeah to the left this guy right here so what's the intended type of vehicle that's going to be utilizing that and what are the daily activities anticipated for that because there's no there's no rolling door no loading door to the flex base end so is that envisioned for Flex Bas end that loading area not sure I'm following exactly where you're oh it's at the end that space has a door at the end of the building towards the self stor okay so then what's that loading zone for then uh the idea was the thought process was that these units would actually have smaller vehicles um that uh gained access to these Overhead Doors right so you have a contractor plumber someone operating we wanted aace if they were to get a delivery from a tractor trailer say you know load of pipe for a plumber or something came in that there was a space uh We've created space at each end of the site so that a tractor trailer would have a designated loading space uh and then it would be offloaded by a forklift and taken into one of the individual units okay so there's not going to be any loading activities within fire Lanes or anything like that or parking of tractor trailers within fire Lanes that's that loading zone is reserved for that purposes that's correct to keep the truck from just stopping in the lane to be unloaded to give it a designated space Char Charlie real quick have I jumping just trying to keep Aesthetics in my head here what we're talking about what is the technical front of this building uh I think from the staff reports the front has been tra as the portion of the building that faces Fort Plains not withstanding that it's burned out but yeah if their property fronts or hits a right of way like four planes or route n those are fronts regardless of whether they're being treated like a front or not technically they're front far from Route N I was just trying to figure out we run right along for Plains Road there I mean I know they're not connecting to for Plains Road but that's technically teally a frontage and it's a good thing you bring that out because your fence that you're proposing requires relief okay so the the fence was in response to comments of the board members I I don't take exception to the fence Ken I'm just saying that you're in the front yard it's 6 foot high and it's not 50% open so you would just need to have Christine touch on that when she gets up to do her testimony sorry to interrupt you Charlie I just wanted no that's fine and just to clarify Jen's point right so the the fence are proposing that was as a request of the board I think or to address some comments from the public it complies with the 50-ft buffer requirement but uh it's still a technical front yard for planes there because of the rightaway dedication it's a 60 foot front yard setback so technically in the front yard setback area what's that can you dimension for us the building now if you have that RightWay dedication on Fort Plains how far what the setback is that's cuz if 50 ft looks very close to the building the well the building's 110 ft from the proposed RightWay line then there's something wrong with the dimensions that are so you're the right there's something wrong with the dimension no they have a 50 foot residential buffer and then they have the building 110 ft from the RightWay dedication because you're taking the setback from the buffer line right correct yeah that's so technically so technically it's in the front yard even though you're hundreds of feet back from the road because the setback is measured from the buffer line agreed uh another so you talked also about the self storage space you made some modifications to the parking layout now you have parallel parking around the 20 foot wide oneway Drive aisle so um technical air ordinance for parking spaces requires a 9 foot minimum um you know I'm not going to dispute that 8 foot wide is not a common acceptable with you know 8 and a half for parking ordinances um but would the applicant be able to make that 9 foot wide to eliminate any relief for that talking about for the parallel spaces correct correct uh we could make them I mean you can the answer is yes we can make them yeah we're talking about a half a foot on each parking stall so um and then the last comment that I think I have is obviously the storm water layout you know we had provided comments based off what we saw previously there wasn't any new storm water management reports submitted with this new layout Basin F looks like it's certainly larger than in footprint than I think what was previously circulated so but we would reserve the right if this is ultimately gets the site plan to review that storm water report in detail to make sure that everything is still on the up and up uh and complies with our storm water regulations uh um you know prior to any uh future approval should the board act favorably on the use variance that's all I have for Mr zner actually sorry one last point so you talked about the sewer uh they did provide calculations um they provided asbill drawings from Crest engineering for the sewer line that runs along the northern side of their proposed development and then I think it heads North runs back behind CME and chapter house so you you said there's capacity uh for 400 plus single family homes that was right we came up with numbers which we share with you but that was my reference point to give a sort of size not just a number do do you have any obviously that's HD zoning along Route 9 did you look at any commercial type uses and what that would allow for commercial type uses to tie into that it it it's a private line IT services three entities currently IT services the CME building KFC and the chapter house they are the ones that own the the line um a number of people have over the years I was involved in that being created some 20 years ago a number of property owners have tried to get into it no one has been successful in getting into it because of the topography in the area so we don't anticipate that there's anybody else that's coming in but I mean but we we have I mean In fairness there are properties that run along that Corridor between your Frontage joh Route 9 and the KFC property that cannot access sewer because they're in New Jersey American Waters franchise area and the infrastructure is on Fort planes and they don't go all the way back to Fort planes and they the township not so much the Bo but the township has been advised by several property owners that they cannot redevelop their property because they can't get access to the Sewer so there are those that will tie in none of those have have asked to tie into the private sewer line today there just currently there's just the three users and it's a the the line was built and owned privately by the people who the CME am I misunderstanding this wasn't there a representation that you were gonna facilitate these individuals to tie in I mean that was testimony two meetings ago we indic we indicated that there would be no objection to them tying in Noone no one's asked the time well I don't think they know yet I mean obviously we have to wait to see the disposition of this application right um whether or not but sewer Line's there right but your applicant or you on behalf of your applicant put testimony on the record that you would help facilitate accessing that easement that you have are are running with respect to the sewer and I quite frankly it started with we will help them tie in and then it was we will it's available if they want to tie in which is a different scenario than that you facilitating the physical tie-in but now you're like oh they're there now so like that's a this is it this is why this issue came up the second meeting because I feel like I I feel like you're going to use that as kind of some positive criteria to just ify the relief but yet I I'm not 100% sure of exactly what is happening with that sewer and it's important I think to go back to where Mr cunliff was we know the capacity in that pipe and my example was residential even though it's not really residential Zone because that's sort of easy to visualize and also easy to run the scenario if we and I could try and come up with scenarios for commercial but every commercial use sort of has a different flow so it's sort of like an endless puzzle to figure out how many different sizes of different commercial uses would fit into it uh it's just there's significant capacity in the 8 in pipe for people to connect to it yeah I mean I think it would just be um important for the board's reference I know there was a property owner at one of the prior hearings I think it was skillers that said you know we love to tie into some sewer if it was available and you know there was representation about a main being available for people to connect um so when you say it's private so the applicant has no ownership stake the applicant so when it was done the easement was acquired over the applicant's property it was O before the applicant owned it but the the way that the sewer group was um was created that an exchange for granting the easement across the applicant's property so that the properties on route nine could C reach the fort PL sewer line that the fort the property that we're presenting to you is a member and is allowed to tie in to that line that was part of the the private agreement so the three businesses out on the road actually funded putting the line in the then property owner a gentleman named Mark Angel gave the easement to them and exchange for that he was his property was allowed to tie into the private so so it's your representation that the applicant has the ability and the rights to tie into the SE main but you're saying they are not a an owner of the private or have a a a ownership responsibility or share in the sewer I I provided the agreement and I'll mail the agreement with an explanation to your attorney and to each of you so that you can see the way that it's written they have the absolute right to tie into the no I I I think I think what kind of what Jem was getting to is you know um if we're saying that the sewer is there and other people have the ability to connect into it um is different if you if this current applicant doesn't actually have any ownership stake in the main because then it's someone else's Main and they were required to you know maintain it and they own it and this applicant doesn't own it so I think that's just important context for the board's reference on the application I'll s the agreement and again this time with an explanation I'll break break it out I I can't emphasize enough though that I I feel like this was not how it was presented to us at a prior meeting and I feel like it was presented to us that of course we can provide access to that sewer I mean am I Mis remembering that I agree 100% now it's we can tie in but it's private so no one else can tie in like I I really quite FR frankly feel like this is a a very a key issue regarding this application because that was something that I think the board thought was a positive thing that this application brings to the table and now it's not quite as clear whether that benefit is actually going to be available through this application which is what how it was represented I think that I can clarify to everybody's satisfaction I'll do it with the document and in a writing Mr cut is there anything further that's all I have for Mr zner at this time if if I might point out that with regard to the storm water there has been considerable exchange between Mr C's office and Mr Z's office um to make certain to the extent that you can make certain that this property can manage this storm water system that is shown um it it's not just that there's a simple sketch the there's been mounding and water table and soil studies uh all generated by Mr zugner and delivered to Mr cunliff and if Mr Cliff I might if you could confirm that there has been that in-depth review you know I think as talked about that the prior hearing obviously we reviewed that documentation we still have some technical comments that should this get to site plan obviously need to be addressed um you know the the comments from a prior iteration to letter still remain in place um I think the only new comment regarding storm water management was obviously that the layout change now Bas f is a little bit different in footprint now that the two sites are I will say two sites but the self storage and the flux base are kind of separated um you know we'd obviously want to see if this gets further to site plan that included in a final stormw management design and we reserve the right to make comments on that I think that yes that's exactly what I would imagine what happened maybe I'm throwing a monkey wrench into this but in regard to the sewer line the the sewer line as you're proposing it would attach to the Self Storage warehouse at the southern part of the property correct they they would they would be able to use that sewer line all of our buildings would be connected to the Sewer okay so then the one two the approximately eight properties that are on Route nine would then be invited to tie into that what what are we going to offer those eight properties in order to access that sewer line that I mean you're obviously going to build something to get to that self storage building Mr ker I I really need to digest the document and send you the digest the rights of the the it is a private line the private line contemplates that people will make contributions and tie into it let me present it to you in it in in its entirety with a with a digest so just to follow up and kind of clarifying I think Mr Ker's question right so there's the sewer line that we're talking about it runs along uh the north side of the subject development and then it turns down the KFC driveway and then it goes north behind the KFC the chapter house and CME right for your the applicant subject site you're running your own private Sewer Service on your site that's going to serve the flex Bas and the Self Storage that's on your property it's not like there's going to be an easement or anything like that too so and we also have access because it was I said um connection was made before the paving we have access to the line in the easement and to the line and for planes directly so we have okay for our site we have access to the Sewer in a number of locations I I understand that makes sense so so the eight properties you're talking about I think that are south of the KFC between the KFC and you know the drive way to the Self Storage there's no to my knowledge I don't believe there's any sanitary main that runs along the rear or anything like that to those properties it it goes KFC makes a left and heads North and it runs behind KFC um CME and the chapter house it goes to Fort Plains not toout correct that's correct I understand yeah I okay thank you Jennifer do you have anything I had a couple questions but I'll go ahead um the buffer that we had talked about at the last meeting was on the HD even though it's HD Z I believe there was a couple residentials now Sher there's on this plan there's existing vegetation is that going to be sufficient because there was a little question about that so during um site plan we'll have that area just spotted in but overall that's significant vegetation that that's why that's left there okay yeah and then we would just add some for season plants yeah but overall it's probably not going to be too much especially with the fence going in right next to it so if there's any little gaps yeah we fill that in now I'm looking at the southern portion of uh building um I believe it's building A2 there's some big uh units there but I don't really the only thing I see as far as parking is on the west side which is basically we're considering the front of the building what exactly is uh being what would you think is going to be using those uh warehouses because they are a little bit bigger than some of the others but there's no parking in the rear just loading I think that after the architect testifies you'll find that the all of the modules have been reduced in size we don't longer have the the large 24,000 sqare foot um tenant perhaps the okay we'll wait for that testimony I I can understand that would be a lot better and then um the only thing that I'm looking at too uh because it's kind of in my line of uh work is the Landscaping trailers 10 feet uh trying to pull into a 10 foot spot with a landscape landscape truck in the trailer that's even with a little adequate uh room width that you have there that's going to be tight now I'm wondering are you speculating there could be a landscaper there because if it is I don't I'm not happy with the 10 foot uh width we uh I we could revisit that and see if the spaces could get to 12 feet yeah I'm not saying all of them have to be 12 feet but if you're if you're having a business such as that where you have Trails backing in certainly have the flexibility the 10 ft is not um I'm telling you it's not going to be enough okay it's good point noted anybody else from the board have any questions Jennifer I'm good okay thank you Mr zner will remain with us and we're now ready for our architect to join us or one if you would come up and it is my understanding everybody will be here when we open the public where they can ask questions to but we'll work with you to make sure okay thanks when that date is identified we'll make we'll work with you okay thank you good evening good evening everyone I remind you that you are under oath and remind the board that Mr gle's testimony as a professional architect uh and his credentials are part of the record I know that you've made revisions to the plans I'm going to ask if you could let the it officer know the plans that you intend to rely upon and then I'll ask if you could take us through a narrative of the revisions that you've made certainly I will rely on what we're labeling sheet A1 through through A4 for the flex building and a A5 through A6 for the uh self storage and in addition to that we have added two renderings Ken can you you have to speak up because we can't hear you right here so I'm very confident that the people in the back of the room can so I indicated the drawings we're using tonight and I also St that we have two threedimensional color renderings that we're introducing tonight so sheets A1 through A4 will be used to present the flex building A5 and A6 for the self storage building and the two three-dimensional colored renderings right correction please add A7 to the A5 A6 and A7 what what are the dates on these plans because they're not on our these were previously submitted 1015 okay 24 here in the issue block the last date in the issue Block 105 10524 oh I don't know are these the correct plans on the screen let me just quick and any of these have to be marked yes well I'm just a little confused because I see I do see some exhibits with markings but that are color renderings but I'm not sure what I'm not sure if it's the same as the witnesses referring to so the data on the plans that are on the screen are also 1015 24 yeah so it's your architectural drawings that were submitted consisting of eight sheets last Revis 1015 2024 correct that's okay and what what exhibit is that where would you like to begin it's a26 on the list let please let me know when you're ready for me to proceed okay go ahead Okay so first I'm referring to I'll be referring to sheet A1 and that's uh the flex building labeled A1 and what we've refined on this drawing is we have seven units and we have seven loading doors so the units are uh relatively small I mean you know 8,000 square fet um to to not to 9,000 square ft um and uh and basically the configuration hasn't changed except we've equalized the floors and we've minimized the loading doors to one loading door per unit I will refer to sheet A2 that's the the flex building A2 uh similarly this building has been revised to indicate Rel smaller units than what we had before um basically you know they're in the 8,000 sqt range to 9,000 to 11,000 square foot range um so specifically uh we have a one unit that's 8,224 one unit 8,116 one that's 8 170 then 9763 11,500 and then there are two units that are oriented in the uh side Direction and those units are 9,523 and 10,000 respectively so we each unit in this building also has only one loading door and uh in terms of the square footage per loading dock they exceed uh each the ratio is ex exceeding 9,000 square feet so uh there was conversation about you know 700 7,500 Square ft we have are we have doors that are almost uh 9,000 square feet per unit so we don't have we have reduced the S the quantity of loading doors and uh they're well over 7500 sare ft per unit now Mr Kazo before you move move off from that so Flex base l and m uh M looks like it has its own uh office and bathroom kind of component but L does not is are those going to be used as one unit or is is it just a no they're they're not going to be there will they will not be used as one unit for it's intended that they're used individually and um so L just doesn't have a bathroom or anything office we will add a they will you can't have a unit without a bathroom so a bathroom and ster will be added to that unit okay as we move forward thank you can I ask a quick one before we move from there this too the the top triangle and the one rectangle it looks like the wall kind of just stops there is that one unit or is that just a that that should go to the exterior wall I apologize for the drafting type error just clarify clarify I pointed that out to my drafter earlier on so the subsequent sheets A3 and A4 depict the mezan spaces the office spaces associated with each unit they except for the tenant Separation Will movements the concept and the square footage of those storage units those Flex storage units have not changed next is sheet A5 U sure so two units side by side are using the same state no because when I'm looking at sheet hold on let me get the sheet yeah I apologize for that each unit will have its own stair so those so the plans if the board were to act in the affirmative would have to be updated to make sure that every unit has like you just said a bathroom plus a stair up to the mezzanine correct okay correct so a a sheet sheet A5 are the elevations of the building there's no the only changes to these elevations are associated with the reconfiguration of the loading doors and any people entrances to the building as required by the movement of the proposed tenant separation walls so other than that the uh the the units the elevations have not changed now it has been brought to my attention that uh the proposed height of the building uh exceeds what's Allowed by ordinance the prop can I just interrupt for one second so I'm not 100% sure that that's true I think that we have as you guys know in our ordinance we have specific Provisions for Flex space ever they're not what they're considered conditional use standard so non-compliance would not result in a d variance however you know that's kind of the the goal that the town has put forward how they want these buildings size-wise to be so I don't think that a variance is required because this use at this location is not permitted so those standards are not applicable to this particular location but I think where you were going with this is that in those conditions or in those standards the height the max height of a flex building is 32 feet and you're at 37 and a half and 38 and a half I think respectfully right um I would request if possible if you could comply with the 32 ft in order to at least maintain the character of what the town envisions for Flex especially given the fact that you know the town also basically says that the maximum size of a flex based building can be 75,000 sare ft which is why they have two buildings right so cuz we're almost there we're almost at the 150 or a little shy of 150 total between the two buildings um but given that I would if if possible um that I think would be preferred um and we would be happy to limit ourselves to 32 feet perfect thank and then I I'm not sure are you done with this with this building because I just want to talk about the facade for a minute please please so in our letter of August 16th we had you know the town has specific I know Ken has been through this ringer with me multiple times about the architecture there are specific Provisions in the ordinance that regulates how these buildings would look and it applies to all four facades um and so a lot of it is you know um you can't have uninterrupted walls and I understand that there're scoring and things on this building but there's also required to be these bump outs if the facades are long I would just ask Mr Pape if the if the board were to act in the affirmative on the application would you commit to your team working with my office to um to come with come up with something that's a little bit more compliant with the the ordinance you can take a look at them I'm not suggesting for these types of buildings that we as you know Ken we've been around this Rodeo multiple times 100% complaint s with like the recesses and things like that but come up with some design that is in keeping with the intention of it um if the board acts in the affirmative on the application Mr chairman the last time that we were here um Miss beam indicated that the architecture needed a lot of work and it could be addressed at a site plan but we were want to make absolutely certain that we knew that the buildings need a lot of work this gives me a further opportunity ir and I have talked about it we know that securing first Miss beam's approval of the architecture and then miss board's approve of the architecture is critical so the answer is yesk you okay thank you so that's that's the extent of my testimony on the flex buildings now I would like to move to the self storage buildings uh those would be sheets A6 and A7 with respect to these this building um it's a four um the changes have been made to the the side of the building rather than the interior layouts of the building um basically it hasn't changed it's a total of four stories and no change there but what we did in the elevation designs of the building is we made an effort to give the impression that the building is lower than it is by adding a mansart to the top story of the building and then incorporating a Dormers around the perimeter of the building in addition to that we've scaled the area below the mansard O kind of over scaled it so it reads as a three-story building rather than a four-story building at least that's was our goal in in the intent of the design adding a mansard adding Dormers and just scaling the building in a way that it reads three stories other than that there's there are no changes uh to the plans but these are significant you know changes based on what we heard at our last meeting which sheet would you want the to have up for the board to see the modifications to the elevations sheet A7 and in addition another sheet that the other drawing that would uh reflect the changes would be the renderings that we've added today and there there are there are two renderings but the sheet that we added today which is A9 it's a 3D rendering of the self storage building dep picks in color the the proposed Dormers and the um and the mansart that uh extends most of the way around the building on four sides did you deliver this electronically to M could we could we bring up sheet A9 the color gender that uh that's A8 if you can go to A9 please okay that is the sheet I was referring to so we there's kind of three different like color horizontal color variations around the building we have the dark gray and the lighter gray on the first floor we have the light color uh material in the middle and then we have the mansard with the dormers on top so we use these horizontal color techniques and Architectural elements to give the feeling that this building is a three story rather than four-story structure the intention of putting up the I've just had to look up what mansart is but the looking up but but looking up and seeing what man's art and the Dormers Mr caner the only reason that we're giggling is cuz she literally just asked me the same question well so your intention is to make us think that that's only three stories when it's actually Four stories it's we're not trying to we're not trying to fool anyone we're just trying to give the appearance of a of a lower building than a higher building well I maybe I shouldn't app p on this but it's not my opinion it looks three stories I grew up in a maner colonial so I'm very familiar with it so a man sword is a is a sloped portion of the building with a roof on it with Roofing sorry I could take the we could take the criticism the uh the building's height is 45 fet is that that's correct irn yes and and the height of the building is not a variance it's the the the concern that has been brought to our attention previously is not that the building's too high but that there's there's four stories in it not that's a violation of anything and position would be that if it's a straight wall it tends to look taller than a wall that looks like this that's all I mean we're not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes there are some buildings that have used that along the Route n Corridor we're attempting to do the same thing and that and that I I didn't mention the uh A8 rendering but that's a that's a new 3D rendering of what the project looks like now uh with Route 9 going diagonally across the sheet uh North being on the left South being on um on the right Mr chair could I just ask a clarifying question Versa about the maner roof so is um are you actually losing any footprint of the units on the four story or is the exterior wall essentially still saying the same because you have a for plan for floors two through four and it shows them all as the same footprint I would say it's a small difference so e you're making it up with the eve overhang well to a certain extent yes so we're not suggesting in that it's less there may be some evidence of the dormers on the interior of the building but I would say it's not difference in square footage is nominal it's small difference gotcha so so they the maner it's it's a pretty steep pitch and you know they're not really losing much of the four-story floor area it's just they're going out with an eve and then they're coming up sharply so it gives the appearance of a roof but you know largely the fourth story is the same gr floor area as the second and the third correct yes wanted to clarify that anything else from the professionals with this witness any questions from the board okay um Eileen we're going to take a five minute break the board will now take a 5 minute break and reconvene at 8:25 p.m. the meeting will now reconvene um here thought you left yeah we thought you left but I uh I would I just checked the time clock and we were like didn't get us yeah very sorry okay Mr P where are we now your traffic we're about to go to our traffic engineer who has already testified who's already been placed under oath and whose credentials are part of the record okay take a moment to reintroduce yourself and confirm that you are under oath yes Nicholas ver Dynamic traffic and you're under yes so there's been revisions to the plans the plan revisions have been presented by both the engineer and the architect and those revisions to the plans affect the on-site circulation and what I would ask that you do this evening is identify the on-site circulation for the two separate uses and share your professional opinion as to the safety inadequacy of the circulation could we perhaps have 829 829 Nick you guys are going to have to talk up like we cannot hear you at all big voice I will scream it out don't be shy thank you a29 pleas a29 please thank thank you um so my office prepared a a supplement to the traffic assessment to address the the current plan as was testified stated 10924 submitted to the board um in there we uh discussed a few things one is um during my testimony last time there were a number of um discussions on the interaction of the two uses one being more Industrial in nature one being kind of a Light commercial lighter use um and the you know the differences between the types of traffic that come in and out uh and the interaction of that so what we were able to do in this new plan was to separate those two uses so essentially you have the very low traffic generator standing on its own with its own access to Route n that's the self- storage facility Building B uh and the higher of the two uses still light traffic generating use is the flex space um other things that change you heard about the parking spaces of importance to get this to be more like what I would normally see for a flex building they're as the board suggested and the new plan um proposes smaller Flex units less loading um really circulation more geared to single unit box trucks vans pickup trucks and that's what this new plan is is really showing so this is really your true flex I think what your ordinance discusses in a flex building with some warehouse space a small percentage of office space um and only roll up doors that's important the previous plan had a number of uh essentially tractor trailer doors that tractor trailers could back into those are all been eliminated here and as you see and it was testified by our engineer uh there's just the one space in case the tractor trailer does come on the site it's off to the side of the buildings and as he noted um they would either dolly or Fork LIF anything from that into uh the building based on the sizes of these I don't anticipate much activity in that loading zone but we wanted to have something off of the road so they're not as we heard before not parked in the in the fire lanane so not blocking any vehicles that are circulating the site 30 foot aisles all the way around uh some places it widens out uh so that's adequate for uh that largest vehicle as well as the fire apparatus uh as you heard there's two separate uh fire connections uh Emergency Services only one is between the two buildings and one is off of four Plains Road um as far as parking uh the new plan on both sites essentially has slightly increased the number of parking stalls uh so Building B can stand on its own it meets the ordinance I think 33 spaces is probably more than it needs um but that's what the ordinance requirement is uh and there's also the ability on the inside so along the building there's a 10 foot wide uh loading zone that would likely be where the overhead door uh uh tenants would you know Park a a pickup truck or SUV or whatever they're they're uh either taking or dropping off at the site um as far as the use uh I testified to this last meeting I just wanted to get it on the record again um this is HD1 zone so there are a lot of different commercial uses um just to our South uh is the Home Depot Center on the Home Depot Center is one small pad for Dunkin Donuts uh a Dunkin Donut's essentially of that size there generates as much or more traffic than this whole entire 300,000 is square feet so that 2,000 foot Dunkin Donuts generates more traffic than this whole entire uh project at a maximum we generate 96 peak hour trips uh the dot considers 100 trips to be significant uh so we don't even rise to that level and we're developing 14 acres of property here uh versus that little Halfacre Dunkin Donuts uh as our neighbor so this use replacing an HD use there aren't many HD uses that generate less traffic than these proposed uses uh so lastly um the size of those parking stols I tend to agree on the the the larger 10x30s that we have uh we could probably go to say 12 by 30s and reduced by maybe two parking stalls I don't think it's a problem uh we just had the room for it it would work nice uh we could end up with you know 10 or 11 spaces in that location so I don't have an issue uh there uh it'll a lot of it would be 10 and driven and we might not even know at at you know now especially we're really early we're only looking for the the use portion when we get further to site plan if we have any specific tenants when we get to that point and that's all I have and are you comfortable that the the design that the board is reviewing is can safely and adequately handle all of the anticipated tractor move all of the anticipated traffic movements the trash removal the emergency vehicle the smaller truck and the articulated tractor trailer yes I am and are you comfortable that the driveways that are being proposed connecting to Route 9 similarly can adequately and safe L handle all of the traffic movements that would be associated with these uses yes Mr chair I have nothing further um Mr what again you were kind of vague with the largest vehicles are tractor trailers I mean you're not saying they're not going to be in the equation at sometime because I we need to have something more specific on tractor trailers because I think all of us here are more concerned about that sure uh there's a chance uh it's been designed to accommodate the the wheelbase 62 maybe even a 67 wheelbase tractor trailer um to circulate the site so we're comfortable okay and one of the board members from our previous meeting had mentioned the uh issue if they miss the main entrance to the they go down are they going to be able to if they made the mistake of going into the self storage are they going to be able to get around or do we need to put signs out there to keep them out of there because so they would just make u-turns on Route n okay but I mean how are they going to know that without having some kind of signage oh I would assume I I guess it's some kind of variance to get a sign but we're going to need some type of sign uh at the end of the uh the easement Mr CH are you suggesting a sign that says no tractor trailer or no connection well I'm going to leave that up Charlie I I don't want to put words in your out but I think the question from the chairman is uh how do people know to get to this site and where the destination is and I think you put testimony on the record that there would be a monument sign proposed within the KFC easement at the route n Frontage indicating that this is the site and you know so people tractor trailers know or whatever box trucks and the like know that this is the site and how to get to the flex space right because before it was the sites were you know the two locations were combined and you could miss the first and then go to the self storage and then come back but there is going to be some Monument sign through the axis heasman in on the route n Frontage uh to indicate where the site is Right each each driveway has a monument sign proposed if adding to one sign will be perlex and one for Self Storage if adding to the Self Storage sign no access to flex building or something along those lines was appropriate address the board's concern we can do that but I think you also wanted to note if a tractor trailer went into that site can they circulate around the building and then leave is that the yeah that's that that's an important question because sometimes the truck drivers aren't going to be paying attention to the signs um these are two separate and distinct properties so I don't see why a tractor trailer would turn into a self storage facility to because they're going to miss it it's that simple going to they just miss and they make a U-turn like they would any other mid block property on Route n but if they did go into this now that they can't go through can they get around this building safely if they didn't can they circulate around the self storage building can it can a tractor trailer circulate around the self storage building does I haven't seen a plan that showed a tractor trailer so I think that's your concern right because you're worried that I understand there's going to be a sign at the KFC that says whatever industrial building whatever but if somebody doesn't know now keep in mind most often Flex space users you know they're going there to work so they know where they're going I get like we're going to have deliveries but by and large when you're dealing with like a contractor they're not having the deliveries made to the flex Bas they're having the deliveries made to the directly to the job site but it is a good point you are going to have people miss the turn I don't necessarily I don't agree that somebody who misses that driveway is going to navigate the u-turns on Route 9 they're going to make a right on West Farms they're going to make a right on Fort Plains they're going to make a right down on Burgerville and they're going to come out and they're going to head south on Route N9 again that is by far the faster way to do it especially at certain hours of the day when that light is a lot agree I don't Mr chair if I could just ask a couple more clarifying questions so I think Mr verice you said that the Standalone loading area uh that's for tractor trailers and then so there's there's a concrete apron for all the loading doors uh facing the east side of the building that's 50 foot wide it so that's for Su 40 Tye box trucks we're not going to have tractor trailers backing into that area no there's no need because there's no loading docks anymore so when there were loading docks it was a different animal then we've eliminated that at this point yeah would can would the applicant agree to a condition of that that no tractor trailer loading backing into the concrete apron in front of all those Flex baces yes okay and then the second question I have following up that too um obviously the loading door itself is pretty you know say 12T wide and then you have you know another I'm just approximating like say 30 F feet of the building facade where there's an apron in front of that are we going to be expecting box trucks to be parked there overnight what's the anticipated use of that apron other than in front of the rollup door for loading purposes um I'm assuming it's to get to the load to the rollup doors um that's I think why we put some oversiz so they weren't all just sitting in front of the building okay so can with the app and agreed to no parking of box trucks within the concrete apron loading area no overnight parking I thought that the last time we talked about that that would be a good idea to put concrete aprons in front of the building so that if there was an overnight vehicle yeah I don't I don't recall that I I guess I just whatever is being proposed I just want to make it clear for the board what's being what that's being utilized for so you're saying there would there can be parking of su4 box truck so they're not parked throughout the site we we anticipated that the area in front of the the loading dock which now has a concrete apron would be an area that the tenant would be permitted to park his vehicle including a box truck overnight okay all right and then you can go Jen if you have something I'm sorry I thought that there was a conversation that like these types of vehicles were going to be stored inside the building exactly y I was you just took the words out of my mouth so I I don't I don't remember the parking on the concrete I think we talked about especially it right it was inside the building and especially if there's material in those trucks that has been determined to be considered outdoor storage so there was testimony about that at a prior hearing yes there was also there was a request for concrete aprons to be installed so that building Vehicles could be um parked in front but if it's the direction of the board that there's no overnight parking on the the apron then that's an acceptable condition how do we feel about that any it doesn't bother me the TRS park in front of their own I think the concern was if you get like an AJ Perry or you get a landscaping contractor that has a lot of equipment and most often they're just haphazardly put all over the place which makes circulating through these parking areas cumbersome and we also don't allow outoor storage so I think that's it's coupled between the two and also theft potentially you guys well we're going to have to address that because I mean I I understand Le City running a space and there's space in front of my whatever my my location I would want to be able to park my truck there can we put stipulations on if it is outside that they have to be compliant to what we put down is in the resolution and we do intend to control all those parking spaces through the lease every space would be identified in the lease and dedicated to a specific tenant we have truck spes we could do something where it we can't just drop a trailer and leave it there get yeah yeah I I'm kind of leaning that way too but I would like to see make sure we have everything very much you know black and white as far as you know what the how we're going to deal with uh the regulating that I think there's also a difference between trucks and equipment like Outdoor Store no equipment no equip no equipment absolutely no materials no equipment right that was stated keep in mind if there's materials in the truck that counts as outdoor storage we went down that that was actually litigated so like that was in a planning board application that exact issue was litigated and was determined to be outdoor storage as we put the black and white together I'll make sure that one of the lines is that any truck that's outside has to be empty can't have material in it how how do enforce that yeah that's I mean it's all well and good to put it on paper but we're not sending people to open up private vehicles to see whether there's material in it like it's unenforceable condition wouldn't like outdoor storage kind of be someone parked a truck and just left it there versus we have stuff in it for overnight to go okay okay in that in that particular instance it was tractor trailers and the trailers were being proposed to be left in the parking lot fully stocked that was determined to be outdoor storage so that was I think part of the reason why we talked about the vehicles moving into the building so that there wouldn't be outdoor storage because that was also something that was initially stipulated tonight no outdoor storage yeah I taking a second look at this I mean with trying to enforce that I can see being an issue so I kind of yeah I can see that's that's about point so I mean I don't think it's something Ken we have to get to the bottom of today because we're clearly not going to vote tonight but it's definitely something that warrants consideration yes got it so Mr chair the the last thing is I believe there was testimony in discussion the last time Mr Veri was here about uh the applicant being amenable to making a contribution towards a future traffic signal at West Farms in Fort Plains Road you know I think for the board's consideration we didn't know what exactly that contribution is cuz that goes towards positive and negative criteria um so that'll need to be presented to the board so we know you know what we're considering as part of the application before we we get to a vote so Mr Pate yes I thought the applicant did agree to make a contribution for that signal I thought that we said that it would be we would look for uh we would look for a participation ratio from the municipality if you want we can sit yeah I think I think we want to know what that what that amount is you know and would I do that with you or would I do with Mr Yos where would I go to discuss that I would start with with Justin because I do know that they have been working on a signal design and probably would know roughly the cost from which you can calculate your prata percentage got it okay any further I I just have one other question and I'm not sure Nick if this is for you and I probably should have discussed it with the architect But Ken you could probably stipulate to that one of the other Provisions that we have um regarding Flex space is that no more than 60% of an individual building can be occupied by one tenant is that something you would be willing to stipulate to yes all right thank you yes okay so it's no more questions for this witness I have I have no further direct okay okay so guess we're to uh Christine you ready there are a couple of factual issues that remain open where I owe commitments to the board and the board's professionals um I think that they're sufficiently identified that Miss Kone can testify this evening there is the possibility after we provide and I have four that I wrote down if we provide those additional facts to you that there might be supplemental testimony no I yeah that's understood but I think since the opportunity is here this evening and we're all here that mone's testimony is we're ready for it okay okay I wasn't here the first evening so I'm sure I was waren do you swear the test give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you got yes please state your name for the record spell your last it's Christine nazaro n a z z a r o cfone c f o n e business address is 52 Reckless Place Red Bank New Jersey 07701 I'm testifying this evening as a licensed professional planner I have testified here in Howell on many occasions as well as hundreds of other planning and zoning boards throughout the state my licenses are current and valid okay that's that's enough you enough okay you're good Christine thank you the last is Mr chair does the board accept Miss Kone as a professional planner and allow her to testify as an expert this evening yes we do thank you Miss Kone I I know that you have been actively involved in this application that you're familiar with the facts as they've been presented to the board and that you've made yourself familiar with the application and applicable ordinances master plan here in town could you give the board a brief description of what you do to be prepared to testify and then take us in a narrative through the proofs that we owe this board and if you would then present the proofs that we have generated for this board sure so to you know good evening chairman and members of the board for the record again Christine cfone you know what I did with this application is no different than what we do on all the other applications we review all the filed plans that we and other team members submit then we participate in a multiplicity of um zooms and conference calls that our team has I visit the subject property I review the professional review letters that your board professionals prepare to um identify the uh variances or issues with the application again visit the site a couple of times and then you know come to the board prepared to testify so the reason we're here before the Zoning Board of adjustment while the subject property sits entirely within the HD1 Zone which I would consider to be a fairly missive Zone there are some 20 you know commercial permitted uses that range from offices financial institutions healthc care facilities and medical centers hospitals restaurants without drive-thru or take takeout restaurants with drive-thru or takeout entertainment uses retail sales Retail Services Home Improvement centers tattoo and body piercings adult daycare health clubs and fitness centers indoor Recreation micro breweries schools commercial schools craft distilleries assisted living facilities and self storage facilities all permitted now when this application was filed self storage facilities were not permitted in the HD1 Zone that came in of March of 23 they were allowed to be permitted uses uh the reason we're here before the Zoning Board of adjustment is because the flex space is not a permitted use in the HD1 Zone um you heard some some dialogue before about you know the height of those those Flex spaces and because we're not permitted in the zone we're not governed by them but we with reduction of the height to 32 feet we do meet all of the bulk criteria if we were in a Zone where Flex were allowed so I think the the board can certainly take notice of that the other reason we're seeking a D1 variance is because we have multiple permitted uses on the property so the D1 is related to the non-permitted flex space and the multiple uses and you know perhaps to the extent that the Self Storage was not permitted when the application was deemed complete um we are I would point out to the board eliminating a non-conforming use in the zone there are a number of residential cottages on the property uh currently which are in the process of being phased out as I just read to you and what I was just listing off was just not um a recitation of uses that I was dreaming up or thinking those uses that I just read from come right out of your zoning ordinance at section 18877 and they're listed through so nowhere in that list that I read were ident identified in the code is residential uses so as such we have an obligation to demonstrate to you that the site is particularly suitable now it doesn't have to be uniquely suitable we don't have to demonstrate that this is the only use that can go here we certainly don't have to demonstrate that we've ruled out every other site there just has to be something about this property that is particularly suitable for this use so I think when you look at the size and shape of this property it is a long skinny environmentally constrained property and when I say it's long and skinny to put some color on those Dimensions right our property the developed portion of it is about 500 ft in width it goes back the linear property is about 1,600 linear feet and then we've got about 2 maybe 85 ft of Frontage on Route n so to go over those Dimensions again we have about 285 ft of Frontage on Route 9 which is if we want to zoom that out maybe easier to see that um but then you'll see you know the property has a depth of over 1,600 feet 1,600 linear feet in the develop area and then a width of 500 so as you can see the geometry or the shape of the property certainly there we go that's the whole site so again going to the bottom of the plan you see we've got the um the frontage on Route n and then when I say the 16 ft in the developed portion I'm referring to the linear portion of the property where the development is occurring and then our at our widest Port part we're about 500 ft so those dimensions in my opinion set up beautifully for a a program of uses that do not front thrive on or require any type of pass by traffic or visibility to be successful when you look at the stated purpose of the HD Zone it is in section 18877 again the purpose of the HD1 zone is to provide for Highway oriented development in the route N9 Corridor on larger lots and permitted in the HC zone so while that may be the stated purpose of the zone that this property is in I'm not sure um how much of a Workhorse this property can be to contribute to the purpose of that zone given the geometry of the property so I do think that you know as far as the reconciliation the omission of these uses I think that this is a unique piece of property that is very very suitable for the development and particularly suitable for the development program that's being proposed and in one of our prep calls um one of the things that the team discussed is where you separate the mice and the elephants so you know we separated the two uses I think um you heard testimony about how that will function and I think the site is certainly large enough to allow for the separation of those uses and when you look at impervious coverage and the critical mass of in intensity that's going on a site in the HD1 Zone you are allowed to have 70% impervious coverage this site is under 25% so that gives you some perspective as to the percentage of the site that we're actually developing pretty tiny um so that's the the positive or the particular suitability as well as the Michi reconciliation for the HD1 zone so we still have an obligation to demonstrate to you that the positive criteria are satisfied and the positive criteria are really the purposes of the municipal land use law they are at section 40 col 55 d-2 of the municipal land use law and they are not unique to howl they are uh purposes that are identified by letter and not number statutorily if we advance one of them we can be found to meet our our burden of proof for this positive criteria I think the board can rely on three criteria g talks about sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of uses I think that given the size and configuration of this property there is sufficient space for the applicant while we're not at the site plan phase we have given you I believe Ample opport Ample information to come to the conclusion that there's sufficient space to accommodate the development program that's proposed by the applicant criteria H talks about the free flow of traffic it's very important when when we work as a team that we all have a synergistic relationship with each other and I think when you listen to the testimony of Mr vertesi specific spefically his testimony that the Dunkin Donuts alone that is adjacent to this site would develop or would generate more traffic than the entirety of the development program on this site Self Storage is a notoriously low traffic generator and flex spare Flex space is certainly going to have a lot less of a traffic impact than some of these other uses permitted in the zone so I think that that's compelling when you have you know testimony from our traffic engineer that a building that is a fraction of the size is going to have U much more traffic associated with it than that's being proposed by the applicant I think criteria H is appropriate and then I think criteria M which talks about an efficient use of the land when you last re-examined your master plan here in Howell one of the things that you did was to call for the evaluation of vacant and underutilized properties um and for the economic rehabilitation and development of those properties so I do think that that criteria M an efficient use of the land this applicant has done a very in my opinion a very solid job of trying to efficiently use this property and to balance the development of the property right in an HD1 Zone the township put this in a commercial a commercial District the purpose of our commercial goals are to create commercial ratables to stabilize our tax base so I think think that you know we've done a great job of doing that to balance the impacts right when you have a development there are going to be impacts associated with it and that's what gets us into the prong of our proofs called the negative criteria and the negative criteria does not ask you to hold the applicant to a standard that there be no detriments just that the benefits of the gr of the variance outweigh any detriment and I think the negative criteria has two two prongs to it really the impact on the public good and the impact on the Zone plan one of the the most compelling benefits of this application in my opinion is that this applicant through considerable expense has facilitated access for all of this commercial traffic out to Route n so the only traffic associated with this development that would have access to Fort Plains Road would be emergency vehicles we are dumping not a single commercial vehicle onto Fort Plains Road and that's a benefit that's an absolute benefit because it funnels the traffic to a major State arterial and puts no traffic onto Fort Plains Road um there's also a substantial burm the applicant has gone through um great care to develop a substantial burm to make sure that we have a proper transition to those residences Beyond um beyond the subject property on Fort Plains Road so I think when you look at those things the board can certainly come to the conclusion that there will be no substantial detriment to the public good as far as the impact on the Zone plan uh the self storage is permissible here in fact there was an action by the governing body um in March of of 20123 to allow this the Self Storage use as of right here and I think with the modifications made to the application including having all loading docks oriented not facing towards the adjoining residential development having the oversized parking not on the residential side there are only passenger vehicles um or space for passenger vehicles on the Fort Plain side of the project they're very low um imperious coverage the fact that we're such a low traffic generator I think the board can take notice of all of these things and come to the conclusion that there will be neither a substantial detriment to the Zone plan or to the public good I know that there have been a number of operational things that the applicant has agreed to as far as the number of trucks the limitations on outdoor storage and I think the board could certainly incorporate those into any finding if the board were to move favorably on this to ensure that the applicant continues to meet its burden of proof with respect to the negative criteria um and the last thing I'll comment on is that I find that the master plan is Advanced um one of the goals in the master plan is to evaluate the potential for economic and Rehabilitation plans and and to encourage sound land use development that can provide Economic Development opportunities so this is an economic development opportunity again this is an HD1 Zone the entirety of this property is located in the HD1 zone so that is you know based on my read of section 18877 that's a fairly permissive and intensive commercial zoning District so I I can come to the conclusion that despite the fact that we need some relief here I think that the board it can grant the relief without any substantial detriment to the public good and the Zone plan so when I review this application in totality which the Poland case tells us to do right it doesn't ask us to pick apart each individual variance and then unpack that one it asks us to look at it in totality when I look at this in totality I find this to be an application that you know through the plan modifications made through this process is a strong application that certainly meets its burden of proof with respect to the positive and negative criteria as well as the particular suitability uh and then ich reconciliation for the D1 variance thank you I I just want to make one point if so the properties in the HD1 Zone and you took a few moments to share with all of us your reading of all the permitted uses that are in in 188 was it 18877 yes 18877 quite a list of permitted uses and including the the Home Depot could be be constructed on this piece of property and it would be a permitted use if you by the applicant agreeing the the Frontage that the applicant owns and enjoys on Ford Plains Road comes with no restrictions there's no restrictions in the ordinance that says Thou shalt not access Fort Plains Road for any uses on your property is that correct that's correct so the but the applicant voluntarily giving up all of that access they are voluntarily reducing what what could be a a very substantial traffic generator onto Fort Plains Road well could be and would be it would absolutely generate a significant amount of traffic the traffic's got to go somewhere right this is a 30 Acre Site this is not a small piece of property this is a very large commercially zoned property so you know it's certainly reasonable on customary that with a large commercially zone property there's going to be an Associated level of traffic and again I think we are putting our traffic not on Fort Plains Road you know and the applicant went through a great expense to make that happen we've been looking at the plan for some time now and when we look at the plan we see that there's a driveway that goes out to Route 9 through the KFC property that driveway wasn't there that was through the efforts of the property owner to negotiate and purchase those rights out to route nine I wanted to make that point that there's Frontage on Fort planes that your applicant is giving up and there's the applicant took the time effort an expense to create an alternative sending all of this traffic out to Highway 9 I have nothing further Miss phone is it do anything further I do the only thing I think I should probably touch on is the fence in the front yard we have a a variance because there is a 6ot vinyl fence um referring I don't know what we have this Mark in exhibit but referring to the exhibit that's shown on the screen there is a six- foot vinyl fence that is technically in our front yard because while we are not seeking access to Fort Plains Road we do have Frontage on Fort Plains Road so it certainly is a property Frontage and we are asking for a six- foot vinyl fence so that fence would need to be I believe be 50% open and perhaps only 4 feet in your front yard but I I think the board could certainly look at that under the C2 criteria so that's a bulk variance and I think the C1 is a hardship criteria C2 is the flexible C I think you could look at that as a better zoning alternative if provides a nice attractive um screening feature there so I think despite the fact that it's a front yard it's not going to really function like a front yard because we don't have access um commercial access there so I think the board can certainly Grant the C2 relief for the fence in the front yard thank you Mr chair I have nothing further direct of this Kone okay Jennifer so I'm going to preface this comment by saying I really need to understand what they're doing with the sewer as well as this outdoor storage of vehicles before I can give you my final opinion on the impacts you know the positive versus negative but I want to do I do want to give the board a couple of things um as you know this board is not shy about relooking at their master plan when major things come across uh us or comes across uh Town Hall staff they're very quick to say you know what we really need to relook at our master plan and get things that's why we have a master plan subcommittee meeting like on our schedule um as you know we did the latest L use element of the master plan in 2022 and a lot of recommendations were made as as a result of that initiative one of which is where Self Storage became a permitted use in the zone Flex space Also wasn't defined prior to to that recommendation in the master plan but it is important to know that it took a very long time to get through that process uh because the town took the time to look at where each use is appropriately allowed and made a definitive determination that the HD1 Zone was not appropriate for Flex so while I get the language in there that encourages Economic Development which is absolutely correct I just want the board to be well aware that this is not a forgotten use it actually was included as a permitted use in the hd4 and some s zones so the Town n HD 1s right Charlie which is basically Route 9 South of lanes Mill Road so there definitely was care taken to look at where these types of industrial uses are most appropriate and it was determined that this was not it obviously that's why they're here for use variant um but it would give me pause to agree that this is like an appropriate use of land at this location um so but again I want to preface this on you know the sewer issue is is a huge issue as is this storage issue which is identified in my mind as you know allowing for sewer obviously is a positive thing but if it's not really going to be allowed like that positive attribute of this is not um coming to fruition secondly um you know I would have the same opinion with regard to the Zone plan we took we took a look at it and the governing body was actually relatively quick in acting sometimes we have those documents out there for years and years and the governing body takes a while to act these are things that the town was very concerned about and acted on them and we actually have seen not so much here because it's now permitted but Flex space in our industrial areas like up along 33 um oakerson Road those types of locations which is where the town felt they were more appro appropriate so that being said I'm not 100% convinced that I agree with the particular suitability argument I also I feel like there was some kind of like this project as proposed is a benefit because it generates no traffic but then we don't access four planes road because we're worried about all this traffic so is it traffic or is it not traffic and I don't disagree with Mr feder's testimony that Dunkin Donuts and those types of uses definitely will generate a tremendous more amount more traffic than the self storage for sure the flex I'm not you know I mean he's the expert and I've known him for a very long time and he's never been anything but less than professional so he's I mean or you have never been less than professional sorry so I don't disagree with what he's saying but without the benefit of tenants it's hard to know exactly what the implication of that's going to be um but that being said that's kind of like my 10,000 foot view of this but again I would I would like to you know get that additional information before I finalize my opinion but generally I'm not 100% in agreement no I I agree with you BEC uh in the aspect we really do need to have everything said as far as the sewer use and then I think we need to all think about what Jennifer had just said so that being said uh Matt you question yeah I I have notes here and I just something that I don't think it was reconciled and if it was I would like people to catch me up I know we had talked on the 9th of September about the four stories and the uh do we ever Recon we ever you know come to a conclusion on that because that's also a variance wouldn't it be it's not a variance so that's the issue so in the hg1 zone height is measured just by feet and the requirement is 45 ft in residential zones we see like 2 and a half stories 35 ft but here it's just 45 ft and that architect has testified that the building in its four-story capacity is at that 45 ft that's correct right Christine is at that 45 ft height so they are compliant however with the straight HD1 zoning and if they were here just for a self storage facility and the Box you know the cube met all of our requirements it' be one thing but they're also here for adding an additional use to the property multiple principal use is on the same lot so you know the intensification of the development or you know the massing of everything I think should be factored into your decision they don't need relief for it but it does go towards the impact associated with the development right thank you for the clarification Glenn and Marie how say yeah I just I I Jen Jennifer I I agree with you on the you know I I struggle with the traffic piece of it um I would agree that because I go there so I would agree that the the Dunkin Donuts piece you know there is traffic would I match it up to um I'm not an expert at this so I guess my question should be do we have a worst case scenario and forgive me because I I did have everything I had a little bit of an emergency before I got here so I I didn't bring everything with me but do we have a worst case scenario case study on traffic for the flex space because I I just can't wrap my head around the fact that it would be less traffic or less of a traffic impact considering that and and also pertaining to that road with regard to accidents and the increased activity that is already there with all of the development that's taking place up in Denver not and alongside that Amory the type of traffic you know cars going into a driveth through a Dunkin Donuts versus yeah you're not comparing app not comparing Apples to Apples at all and that's the part I'm really struggling with and the cars don't enter Dunkin Donuts from Route n right exactly yeah okay I've asked Mr fesi to return to I think that he did a traffic report he did analyze traffic from the flex and it's set forth in his report so is that the question because yeah I I I I had all of that information like I said unfortunately I don't have it with me right now so I just wanted a clarification on that if you could I'm gonna just before Nick testifies I want to share with you the list that I've made of what we owe you and I think some of this is what Jennifer is looking for but I'll begin by saying I'm going to provide you with a brief addressing Mr gazowsky statement about this board shouldn't be entertaining A bifurcated application the second is that we're going to respond we're going to come up with something very crystal clear in black and white about vehicle storage or not and so that that'll be placed before the board with specificity the next is that I'm going to be delivering the sewer agreement the sewer easement and I give you a digest of of that the next is Mr um our architect is going to update his plans to have the stairs elevators and bathrooms shown in all the places that they're supposed to and the last one that I have here is that I am going to reach out to Mr Justin Yos the township engineer to explore with him what the uh anticipated cost of the traffic signal is and to come up with a formula for participation by this applicant so all of that we owe you before we ask that this matter be concluded with that Mr bres could you respond to this scotson Con concern did you do a traffic analysis of the flex Bas as part of your report I mean specifically worst case scenario I'm I know there was one done I just want a clarification on it in general but then also with regard to any high traffic because like I said Dunkin Donuts you can't compare apples to apples so I'm trying to assume full capacity larger PE larger businesses using the flex space with numerous equipment deliveries Etc yeah so what we do because it's a mix of Flex space is essentially a mix of warehouse space and office space um I don't have the specific square footages but we used all the square footage of office and generated that separate from warehouse now normally when we if it was a straight Warehouse you assume there's office in there so we're conservatively adding the office on top of the warehouse so we utilize The Institute of Transportation Engineers which we use for if I was doing it the HD1 uses restaurant uh any general retail I'm assuming Supermarket type uses those types of uses that all kind of go in here um and I talked about it before so even a small the reason I compared it to the dunin because it is next door and it's really small right it occupies about a half a acre a Dunkin Donuts generates between 100 and 200 peak hour trips the whole entire Flex space in the peak hour generates less than 100 so if this was developed with say something similar to Next Door a Home Depot type use which could likely fit on the bigger side so the north side and then maybe a couple restaurants down at the bottom you're looking at generating probably 5 to 600 peak hour trips if that use was here um I think the reason that use is in here is because this site doesn't have a lot of Highway Frontage so really isn't suited well and there was questions as to missing the driveway um that's why there's likely not an HD1 use on this property because it's been zon this for a long time is what I understand without visibility to the highway this property is limited in the types of uses because those uses are relying on people driving up and down the highway seeing it and coming in this is more of a your destination where people know they're coming to this site so when we talked about missing the driveway if this was HD1 uses I'd say that was very likely because it doesn't have a lot of visibility where the Home Depot all of their Frontage is on roadways so you can see the the uses as you're driving by every single day and you know Duncan's there you know Checkers is there um Home Depot so this is when you compare HD1 to this straight up this is a much lower significantly lower traffic generator it's it's pretty simple so to follow up that so in the traffic report you said you did the office and then the warehouse for the it is there any other for for this type of use does it have a designation or a l use code for flex no do they have something more Akin like industrial park or something like that they have industrial uses um I can look at those and give you the numbers for the next meeting but they're still not rising to the level of you know retail commercial type uses yeah I think that would be you know to miss scotson Point might be helpful information for their consideration Fabrications I can tell you just from you know doing this for 30 four 35 years almost now um it's not that dissimilar I think the numbers are going to be very similar but I'll come back with the the numbers okay your offer is to go into the the the national manual and find the different types of industrial uses whether it's Light Industry assembly re and and and provide those additional numbers for the board yes got it yeah to to miss godson's point I think she's just looking for a worst case and I don't disagree that you know we haven't we've seen Warehouse or other flux type give traffic reports broken up as warehouse and office right but there are other L use designations and I know we don't know who the tenant is and things like that but you know maybe picking the worst case out of a possible type tenant use might give the board some additional context yes so we add that to the list of commitments that we have to this board okay before we go to public um John do you have anything to address regarding the Bungalows just to maybe save a few questions from the public sure um and I thank you for bringing that up because what you're seeing on the screen is just a small sliver of the property uh everybody seems to have forgotten uh the Bungalows that uh uh are just north of here so uh as of the letter that I re received on December 11th from Larry lman who is an attorney for the uh applicant uh there are still 13 families residing on the property which puts them in direct violation of an agreement that we had by which everybody should have been vacated by December 1st so as of today uh they are subject to more summonses uh for those uh 13 families uh living there uh in deplorable conditions to be be quite honest so um you know my once this meeting's over um I mean I would like to hear either from the applicant or from Mr Pape to see what the plan is where they are uh just for clarification uh but they should have been out already and uh I would stress that you should consider that uh when making the decision they have been comeing to compliance with that and that should be number one okay uh Sher I didn't want to forget about you anything you wanted to add before we go to the public no I'm all right that's I don't have anything okay Mr chairman if I just very briefly um John did tell me that of his concern with regard to the status of the Bungalow there were 34 um there are 13 families that have not yet left there are 21 since August that we have been able to get to leave that we are working with them we're try it we're trying to be Humane and if they have not voluntarily agreed to vacate as indicated M Mr Lyman is the attorney responsible for the eviction if they are not out in January he will start the lawsuits he has tried to do it without lawsuits but it hasn't these last 13 are still there okay but it's it's not it's not being ignored it's just a trying to be Humane about the term ntion okay uh is everybody good to go to public motion to go to public all in favor Eileen the board will now be open to the public if you'd like to come up please state your name and your address I just want to remind the public that we don't have like a Time clock but just be respectful of the people also that want to speak tonight so we can try to get everybody in hello my name is antonel biano oh I'm sorry the truth theuth got I do say your name and spell your Antonello Bianco b i n Co 59 Arrowwood Court how New Jersey Tuscana Community I'm here um on behalf of Tuscana Community representing uh our folks in the neighborhood that we to this project and um I and others have walked around the neighborhood and collected signatures that we like to present as um for the record evidence approximately 175 signatures just for reference we have approximately 186 dwellings in our in our community so this represents a good portion of folks who are against this development we have several reasons why um I can State them but basically a lot of that went uh over we went over it tonight uh essentially the zoning issue we're we're all against um this being built on an HD1 based on the criteria that's been since set forth traffic we've heard quite a bit about traffic we know that there's going to be a lot of traffic and safety related issues the whole waterlow retention uh business we think that will have an impact especially during Inc weather the aesthetic impact that's perhaps the primary reason that we're against this thing it's it's just going to be uh obtrusive and frankly we would like to see which I haven't seen an elevation on the fort plane side view you have a lot of wonderful drawings everything representing route nine but what are we going to see all of the elevations have been presented like they're not a good clear one so if we could do something better before you move forward um I would just represent the objections of you that is the objections of me as well as everyone else Jen I got it hold on so Mr biano I have a question which is are you you the these home other homeowners you're do you have a homeowners association do and are you attempting to speak on behalf of the homeowners association yes and do you have have a okay so that's a corporate entity okay so that would need to be represented by an attorney understood the the HOA okay um and uh or do you have a position in the HOA I do not okay so as Miss beam has noted I think you should keep your comments to your view as opposed to others who aren't here before the board who then can't be asked questions as well but you could certainly provide your op your personal opin and I have a few personal questions I need to add to thatan a um Mr bianos can speak for himself and only for himself he cannot speak for his neighbors and he cannot submit a petition that is signed by people who are not here every all evidence that's provided to this board anyone who is expressing that they're not in support of this application must be here so that we can cross-examine them so I have no issue at all with the testimony Mr biano on his on behalf period I concur I think we're saying the same thing Mr though I can't present this as uh well that can't be submitted as evidence because we would be at understood we'll we'll hold this I mean yeah I don't think there'll be a problem for such um you may again if there's a homeowners association we'll make sure they repres if you're represented in that Association through your attorney could then present the view of the association okay but but I would like to hear your personal reasons well some of my other personal readings reasons again the uh just the aesthetic impact and because of such that's obviously going to have a a um a property value impact in our view in my view excuse my you H noise and pollution I think it's going to be noisy I know you said perhaps 100 vehicles per day whatever it was but there will be noise and just the fact that this thing is so close to my home I know going to hear all that traffic um and just the community Integrity I think it's just going to negatively impact the look and feel the quality of life that we've since um I've since come to enjoy at Tuscana and uh be be honest with you lack of notification I haven't heard about this then you say this has been in development seven years until two three months ago um and really just on a whim and in my personal View and asking my community my my neighbors I'm I'm just guessing here but I would say 80% has not heard about this so I don't think proper notification I would just leave your comments to what you know okay your personal information yes um I do have a question though I mean we talked about economics of this thing it's going to dra generate Revenue great for the owners and what kind of jobs would this create so like in before land use board the board doesn't take but I mean that should be considered too right I mean if this thing goes through not economics it's it's really land use considerations that's unfortunately that's you know that's we can't do that I'm sorry I was just looking through my nose to see if anything I well um we'll be back thank you for your time I appreciate okay thank you do you swear or affirm the testimony give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do state your name spell your last and your address please my name is Jason Hughes last name hu G hes address is 30 Brack and Court H um I Heard earlier that there is a limit on the square footage for Flex use space and it's of my opinion that this attempt is to circumvent that by having two buildings separated by only 25 ft um it appears when you look out that it would have normally been one building and that is an attempt to circumvent that that one rule I also typically with a one-story building don't picture a 32t building as one story so this does become in my opinion a great eyesore for those folks that you can see at the bottom of the photo um that are probably approximately 300 ft from that building so maybe you know three times the length of this room while this may generate less traffic than a Dunkin Donuts it is a significantly different type of traffic these are construction vehicles that we will deal with for however long it takes to build it Follow by commercial vehicles all or many of which will be beeping when you back up into these loading bays and buildings um the the burm itself is 8 feet followed by either a 4ot or six foot fence so approximately 15 16 ft that will not cover you know the the visibility of the building any trees that are going to be planted on the left portion of the photo will take many many years to to even make this somewhat not visible to those residents that are sitting in their backyards enjoying the time in their pools and now we'll also additionally have to deal with the increased noise that's going to come from whatever tenants go into these areas which we don't know at this time is there any limit to what can go into these from a manufacturing or you know sheet metal type businesses or or is there any noise restrictions of the tenants that go into these types of buildings the applicant indicated that there'd be no activity outside of the buildings then that was part of the applicant's representations so I could put a fabrication shop in there that has noise from 6:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. I guess that was the hours that I've heard is that correct the noise in this building and anywhere in the town ship of how anywhere in the state must meet the the state noise standard um which is what well there's there's different decibel at different times of the day I'm not an expert in it only that I know that um all uses commercial or industrial uses must meet the state noise statute which is also embodied in the Township's ordinances so I would further submit that there is the potential for not only the noise from the traffic from the vehicles backing up but the increased potential noise of what goes on inside these buildings that really cannot be controlled and I think that's that's all I have for right now thank you thank you do you swear or affirm the testimony you give will be the truth they'll truth nothing but the truth I do state your name name spell your last and your address please Paul Dorado 27 Firestone Drive doat I'm actually on the HOA but I'm not speaking for the development just just wanted to say that for you um I didn't hear the address I'm sorry 27 Fire Stone Drive thank you sir uh I appreciate the uh testimony that we heard specifically on the traffic that you're not going to filter it out the fort Plains however the traffic going out on Route n because this is going to be a flex base I'm going to assume that we're going to have at some point 53t trucks possibly um smaller vehicles but regardless because you can't go out Northbound on nine you're going to have to make a right out on a route nine if there's a freight carrier that wants to go north back on nine rather than going to 195 they're going to have to proceed to the West Farms Jug Handle make that turn you guys said it was a u- it's not actually U-turn it's going around The Jug Handle onto a road that is congested all the time to go back out and to go Northbound out on nine the way Freight Works they're going to take the shortest distance otherwise they're going to charge their more money for delivering it this sort of thing so you're not going to have the carriers go out to 195 go out to the turnpike and then go north so that area there is going to be really congested you also also have on that corner you also have the uh Memory Care Facilities that that's going to go on there that was approved I was on the planning board that was approved over there so you got a heavy amount of traffic on that thing for West farm so obviously it being Route 9 it's a state thing there's going to have to be some kind of improvement because you're going to have a traffic nightmare there you're also going to have traffic that goes out to West Farm maybe going towards Jackson at the light that your application for remember when you did the uh the Sunnyside development you guys didn't want to put that light there you got that same thing with the light that they're just talking about the contribution there so you know you actually help create this traffic mess that is here with some of your other applications actually so um but but that's a big problem on that route because it's that Jug Handle in the morning it's crowded every day there's people that come in it's only two lanes three lanes then you got people coming in it's going to be an absolute nightmare so I think at some standpoint somebody's got to contact the State and figure it out I think that's about all I have thank you thanks all any you anybody else hello everyone hello yes I do yes I do my name is aquanetta Smith I live at 57 Arrowwood Court 57 can you just spell your last name for the record smth SM I I have been a resident of excuse me are you making a comment because you would have she would have to be sworn in I did yeah do you swear or affirm the T you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yep okay thank you thank you I have been a resident at 57 hour Wood Court for 22 years I've raised my kids um beautiful um you know with the intentions that I would retire um there um this is a nightmare um you don't live there but I do and no something has to be you know not to say that what you're doing can't be done but it just has to be thought out a lot better than what is being proposed um that's all I have to say um yeah that's it okay thank you [Music] hey good evening Mark pry two Castle Court you square affirm the testimony how do you know that I'm not just gonna make a comment this is our process Mr come on as a former board member I'm sure you're okay oh I I appreciate that recognition swear from the testimony give will be the truth told truth nothing but the truth yes all right thank you and I'm sorry Mr appr I didn't get your address I'm sorry to Castle Court thank you good evening Mr Mertens chairman Mertens it's a pleasure to say that um had a a couple questions uh obviously we I was here at a planning board meeting when we talked about this area in need of Redevelopment could someone from the professionals explain what was the reason why this particular piece of property was not included in the area of in need of Redevelopment considering that there is some Frontage along rout 9 that's like I think immediately south of the area in need of Redevelopment it it does start immediately south of that you know we discussed the parameters of that Redevelopment study that was done John what was that done a couple years ago or a year ago or so um and it was determined at that at this point that it was going to start with the homes that are on you know just sou just south of KFC and run all the way to like the florist to the North on this side of the street the site was not anticipated to be included at any point um you know I can't like I don't know exactly the intention behind it I do know that when the study was undertaken Mr Pape had a development application pending before us this application was pending before us it's been 2020 I believe I think my yeah I think my file is 2020 or 2021 um but it was definitely not included it was not included in the governing body's resolution to us to undertake the study nor was it included within the study do you find that that's unusual that that you would have an application pending before luse board for several years and then they would do a study you know about you know a Redevelopment of literally every adjacent property around it and not include it for one reason or the other I don't because we didn't include Home Depot either so it's not like it went all the way but one block to one lot to the corner we basically evaluated the study area it's a large Corridor to be studied all at one time quite honestly um so do I find it unusual no but Home Depot's improved and there's like really nothing to go there this is like largely an unimproved piece of property so I'm just going to say I'm not sure what this got to do with the testimony before the board and the application more these are more policy questions to go to why the Govern governing body has to do a study on a certain area along nine but I understand that Jen sits in many roles here but I kind of think that's I'm just yeah no I'm just trying to understand a little bit better because it to me it seems unusual I mean there certainly can see you know be a rational explanation as to why it wasn't included I guess what I was trying to get to is that if it were if it had been included in the area of need in need of Redevelopment and we're talking about the sewer and how that that area in need of Redevelopment is going to allow for broader infrastructure improvements to all of the properties that are in the so Mark I'm just going to interrupt you that's absolutely not true like we're not providing opportunities for enhanced infrastructure through the Redevelopment we're providing additional zoning Alternatives which is what the Redevelopment plan that's under way currently is proposing the issue with this section of town and why it hasn't redeveloped is because the sewer is on Fort Plains Road and some of those properties do not not extend to Fort Plains Road so therefore they don't have direct access which is why we've been talking about the sewer with regard to this project from the beginning um is there does this provide opportunities for those buildings that are immediately in front of it on Route n to have access yes that's what we want to know because kind of been dancing around it for three meetings so um but that so you know the other argument could be this site has access to the Sewer so it doesn't need the help okay I'm going to Pivot to something else um I was looking at the traffic study uh we do know that there have been uh affordable housing projects that have been approved in this particular area specifically the Zac project which is uh just north of the driveway the yes just north um I guess it's a I think it's Lots 24 25 and 26 it's yeah it's on the other side of Marite k at the at the right so it's my understanding that there's 360 units that are garden style Apartments correct me from wrong J uh that are going to be that were approved uh they I don't believe that they've built on you know begun building on them yet right so um is there you know I would expect that since that's located on the southbound side of Route 9 that there will be significant traffic coming from those apartments because I don't I don't believe that there's going to be any access West onto four planes so it's going to be all Ingress egress coming on to Route 9 right there just I guess maybe 500 feet north of the driveway Jen I mean is that accurate about uh maybe a little bit more because it goes through right you have KFC with their driveway is then you have an office building then you have chapter house then you have Marite and then you get to this property so it could be more than 500 people but not not but less than a thousand I would say probably okay so it I don't believe that that traffic was included in the traffic study now it's not I don't know what impact that would have or not but I think it's important that as this board considers you know traffic impacts that they also consider the anticipated traffic from that zbec uh apartment complex that's 360 units that's going to be just north of the KFC driveway okay well you touched on a good question I mean Mr Pate can we have your uh your traffic engineer actually respond to that and that was what I was alluding to I just didn't want to get into the specifics because it's not built yet is this ready tonight yeah that it's not in there because we started this job in 2020 and that job is probably approved there after that okay yeah so we started this job in 2020 so that one wasn't included we in actually included a couple projects that are actually constructed Cornerstone uh which is down on West Farms and uh an office building on Fort Plains Road um um the levels of service at our driveways are at B uh that's north of that drug handle so likely most of their traffic is going back to the north so I don't see an issue with if you know 50 75 of their vehicles are passing by our driveway we have a B level of service worst case 14 seconds of delay uh so I could add that traffic in it's not going to show anything different than what I've already so Mark can I just interject for one second just so I don't know that I agree with your trip distribution assertion have you reviewed the traffic report from that application no okay so I I don't necess I I think I think you're right Mark I think that a lot of this the traffic from that proposed development is going to go south and is going to pass this the access both access points on its way South so I definitely agree that that traffic potentially I don't think all of it's going north I think a lot of it's going to go to the South either way even if it all went past our site we have a B level of service and all it means is we're less percent increase in traffic volumes to the adjacent roadways I'll get that information and provide it to the board but I can tell you right now like I said 35 years of this the person speaking here knows me and knows what I do uh for a living and I'm very comfortable that that traffic from a that's really a small generator of traffic compared to all the commercial uses up and down the highway but you'll do it I'll do it sure yeah please thanks Nick you're welcome uh just a general comment you know I understand you know what Miss cfone is saying about this particular property being like unique um I would be curious as you know when there's a statement made about the impervious coverage on you know the developable portion of the land I'd like to know how much of this land is environmentally constrained because um if there's you know a significant portion of this land that cannot be developed I I'm curious as to what would be the imperious coverage of the area of land that is developable not the overall amount of land on the property if somebody can answer that question for me that that was the reason why the property why they're development correct me if I'm wrong but why they develop wasn't extended further north yeah we cover it's my understanding there was testimony on that the first time we heard okay all right so then um and I guess my last comment will be that you know I think that the board should be um cautious about granting any use variances that involve more than one principal use and setting that precedent thank you thank you so we're about 12 minutes from 10 anybody else do I have a motion to close no one I make a motion to close the public everybody good yeah yeah we're gonna still have after we get more testimony okay so all this isn't over right no no that's what I'm saying is we're going to still have more testimony and then the public can come back up at our next meeting and you had Mr gazeraz as well so okay so all in favor of closing John John did you have a question I do um for Mr Pape um I know it's not site uh site plan but uh you have a possibility of 14 different uh Flex spaces which equates to 14 tenants I'm only seeing three enclosures for garbage one of which is uh towards the uh self storage and only two for uh the flex Spas which I would consider insufficient duly noted yeah so just to add on to John's sentiment so I we obviously had our rules committee and this was a topic that came came up and it's as a result of after things are built a couple years down the line um the engineering department is observing these issues with sites with multiple users with multiple kind of components uh you know I think we just want to see trash refu enclosur is commensurate with the actual scale of the use being proposed and the number of tenants being proposed duy noted duy noted okay because I I I happen to agree with Charlie on that I I'm looking at it too and three's not going to cut it okay um so I guess iene we have to schedule the next meeting for this are we close to the public I just want yes yeah for tonight yeah that's why I was um for meeting dates I have February 10th I have two applications on February 24th I have one application on and March 10th I have one application on I'll start by asking what was the first date February 10 can and the next one is February 24th 24th to everyone on our team are you available 10th and 24th what are the applications that you have on your agenda the 10 they home owners or are they substantial they're both use variances they're both use variances yes and what is on the 24th I believe that's a use variance as well and would we be is behind that or in front of that um on the 10th I have one that's already being carried and the 20 4 it's a new application Mr merant if would it be possible to go to the 24 and that this is a continued application now yeah I I I understand I just don't know with the OB there if that's going to make it a longer meeting I don't think on your end there's going to be that much more that you have to put on record I don't think so Mr Burton but I expect that Mr gazer to talk about I was just trying to but I think it is an ongoing application and I think we should at least we'll hear it first okay then everyone on our team who's here good on February 24th February 24th does work for all of us if you would be so kind as to announce a continuation to that date would be most appreciative okay okay and do we have to get an extension to time as well yes through March 30th 2025 on the record and I'll deliver the letter to miss cusa tomorrow okay therefore uh to put it on record case number ba218 for planes Partners LLC will be carried to February 24th correct okay with uh notice to March 30th ex extension of time we appreciate the offer to be at the top of the agenda that evening thank you okay thank you Mr Pete thank you thank you good night all is there any further business of the board professionals before need okay behalf of myself I'd like to extend a merry Christmas happy Hanukkah and happy New Year to all of you thank you for a great year so far and we'll see you to you as well thank you and we'll see you in 2025 and our next meeting I'm sorry the reorg is January 13 2025 okay thank youan this is February 24 okay we're adjourn we have a motion to close motion to I'm getting getting my I'm getting my feet wet but thanks for reminding me I I'll second that okay on favor