##VIDEO ID:I8LbqED_tdk## [Music] good evening ien can you please open up the meeting Township of how only Board of adjustment Monday September 9th 2024 I hereby declare this meeting of the how Township zoning board to be open adequate notice having been given pursuant to the New Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was mailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on December 11th 20123 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the H Township Municipal Building 4567 Route 9 how Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and the rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note this is this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on how Township TV 77 this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues of what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and on the decorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times thank you thank you Eileen can we have a roll call please Mr burillo here Mr caner here Mr Hughes here Mr merens here Mr Roso will be arriving late Mr Stan is excused Mr Ryan present miss scotson here Mr SE here you have a quorum thank you eile will everyone please rise and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank you Andy can we have a swearing in of the professionals you swear the testimony of be the truth the whole truth Tru help I do do please State your names for the record Charles K Jennifer beam your professionals are sworn Mr chairman thank you sir item five on the agenda approval of minutes Eileen any minutes no minutes to approve tonight item six do we have any vouchers e no vouchers tonight thank you item seven Eileen any correspondence I have four things for correspondents we'll take them one at a time okay application ba 24-6 Turkish American religious Foundation has requested to be carried to a later date with notice they will be revising plan okay so for anyone that's here for application number ba2 24-6 which is the Turkish American religious Foundation Inc this application will be Carri to a further date with new notice correct okay next one well they're going to we're going to have to give them a new exploration date once they give new notice and and so forth go ahead I application ba 23-18 cranber Cranberry Road Holdings LLC has requested to be carried to October 28th 2024 with no further notice an extension has been granted to the board through November 30th of 2024 okay anyone that's here for application number case number ba 23-18 Cranberry Road Holdings this application is being carried to October 28th 2024 with an expiration date of November 30th 2024 with no further notice next one case number ba 2306 Gateway industrial has requested to be carried to a later date with no further notice an extens extension will be granted by Mr P um Mr pape I have November 4th available Mr chairman members of the board Kenneth Pape on behalf of the applicant Gateway industrial 175 we made a substantial resubmission of plans approximately 10 days ago and we are awaiting all of the reports we I think we received most of the reports we do need time to work with your staff to address the reports we also found ourselves as the application at the end of your agenda we're hoping to be moved towards the top of your agenda a future meeting date and for those reasons we ask that it be carried November 4th would work for us if it works for this board and you're looking to schedule a hearing to to begin on November 4th is what yes sir Mr chair and then an expiration the expiration date that we would Grant would be as requested typically I add 60 days to the date so I would say to the end of December 2024 and such additional extensions as the board requires would be always be granted okay ien what do we got I have November 4th um if you approve you can go first uh normally I would put any carried applications to go first but that's up to the board MERS well here's the thing Eileen I'm going to be um on travel for the next couple of months so there's a I I think this this fourth is in Jeopardy for me December 9th is in Jeopardy and I think I told you that um sth the the 7th of October right yes so if Mr Pap is good with me not being here I have a strong preference for the chair to be present but Mr chair I think that I don't think we're GNA finish in one hearing it's a it's a what's the that's the next meeting in November is the 25th right yes yes I plan on making I have nothing scheduled as yet if that works for everybody Mr chair if that's offered to the applicant we take it 2 acceptable if acceptable to the board and I would then make the extension to the end of January 2020 five Eileen does that work for us yes that's fine okay Mr P so case number ba 23- 06 Gateway industrial 175 LLC this application is being carried to a later date with further notice we're looking at the next hearing being 25 November 2024 with an expiration of January 30 2024 I did ask that it be without notice but I'll defer to your guidance if you require notice you want it without further notice if you if you make the announcement this evening I'd appreciate that okay we'll do it without further notice then thank you Mr chair thank you you're welcome Eileen next one um all zoning board members are to complete the storm water training the directions in the video have been sent to your Township emails and just let myself Oren Rano know if you completed it thank you thank you eile do you have a list of who's still out standing I don't all right the the the the the remaining folks will get it done now someone who's done it how long is it to oh okay no quiz or anything like that I just want to make sure I have I'll put that in my schedule right now so I don't okay so Eileen that does all the correspondence yes okay resolutions before the board case number ba 24- 05 this is Jessica Basset this is a resolution granting bulk C variances eligible voters burillo caner use Mertens Ryan and seya what's the pleasure of the board I'll make a motion I'll second that motion Martin and Ryan Eileen roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Mr Ryan yes and chairman SE yes resolution approved thank you all right that brings us to Applications before the board what we have up is case number ba 2310 royalty 19 LLC this is a final major site plan application of royalty 19 LLC as applicant owner seeking final major site plan approval to use an existing building containing 12,232 ft of storage space and 837 squ ft of office space with Associated improvements in the A3 Zone on premises known as block 37 l 24.02 19 Miller Road expiration date 22 September 2024 sir good evening Mr chair members of the board board's professional staff in public this is an application for final site plan approval of the property that is on 19 Miller Road the board will recall that this application was presented earlier this and late last year and memorialized earlier this year for use variance relief and preliminary site plan at the time that we were presenting the application the board was actually considering granting final site plan approval there was almost nothing open we had filed the application as use and preliminary we had not filed it for usth preliminary and final and because of that requirement the board did not have jurisdiction to Grant final this evening we have filed the legal notices for final site plan approval for this evening and I can advise the board that the plans that were submitted for preliminary approval have not changed other than there has been some technical additions that were made pursuant to the board's professionals prior to the meeting this evening our architect confirmed with Miss beam that no further architectural testimony is required and we have received the reports of Miss beam and Mr conliff I'm going to ask if we can swear in Mr if we could swear in Lewis ugar very briefly I'm just going to ask that you confirm the accuracy of those statements and ask that the board take jurisdiction and we're ready to proceed Jen so I think I think the only reason that we didn't Grant final the last time was because there was a question in the notice is that correct Mr Pape correct we're not waiting on anything there's nothing hanging for me I don't know about Charlie but like there I have nothing outstanding Charlie yeah the only thing that we had outstanding um there was uh talk about resurfacing part of the roadway in front of the property Frontage uh I think the town has come through and repaved portions of the road I would just ask that uh the applicant be required to repave the other half uh that has not been repaid by the township is that an issue Mr P no we're amenable to that what I'd ask is before we undertake the repaving of any portion of the road we agree to repave as directed by Charlie I'd like to have a physical inspection our client has provided us with some evidence that the limited portion in front of his property is probably the only piece of the road that's not in bad shape so just like to have it confirmed have it inspected and if it's required to be milled and repaid then it'll be milled and we're improving the sight line we're the lights going in we we're filing title 39 we're allowing the officers to go in the back just and the New Jersey Transit or Conrail whoever owns that if there's anything going on behind the property we have it all taken care of all all 100% addressed and I would because Mr zner is actually if and Andy or E could confirm jurisdiction from our notice package the board is jurisdiction Mr and then as Mr zner to just be sworn have his brief testimony on point okay you swear the testimony you'll give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you I do state your name for the record spell your letters leis zner Zu e g n e r we accept your credentials Mr zner Mr zner you were the design engineer for this project and it was your testimony as the engineer at the time of preliminary newps is that correct yes you've heard my cqu with the board and the board's professionals that the plans Remain the exact same plans other than you're adding the technical requirements that were requested by the board and the board's professionals at the time of the prior approval that is all correct Mr chair we would submit to the board that we're our application for final is consistent with preliminary no changes have been made and you've heard from your professionals that there's nothing outstanding Andy the you've already started to prepare that resolution or do you have all the information you need I do okay good yeah board members any questions did we hear from the public last yes yes you should open the public okay make a motion to open Mr chair we have a second second all in favor all right Eileen will let's open this one up to public please the board will now be open to the public if you'd like to come up state your name and your address thank you this is on case number B ba 23-10 royalty 19 LLC motion to close second all in favor ien we're closing the public the board is now close to the public okay then what eligible voters on this one E I think it's final so it's everybody right I have everyone besides Mr Ros Mr Stan okay good all right so then what's the pleasure of the board here then Mr chair based upon you know the testimony and everything from the last meeting and uh I would just like to make a motion to go ahead and approve the final site plan for this application got it we got a a motion to approve I'll second that we got a second Eileen roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes and chairman say yes I look forward to reading this resolution is approved it'll be one of the shorter on okay okay so now what time do we have okay Mr chair I have the next application and I am waiting for my operations witness if I could ask for a 5 to 10 minute recess so I can make a call and find him M Mr pape I believe your witness has arrived oh good now I just need to spend those five minutes with him all right let's uh I the board's going to take five minutes thank you the board will now take a five minute break and reconvene at 7:25 Eileen can we please open back up the meeting will now reconvene and let the record show that Mr Rosco has arrived [Applause] Mr chairman I think that just for the benefit of the public we should probably let them know Fort Plains Partners is the only application that's going to be heard this evening other than the one that we just heard so if you're here for any of the other applications on the agenda it's not going to be heard this evening thank you chck Mr pable Mr chairman members of the board board professionals and the public Kenneth Pape of the firm H Pape on behalf of Fort Plains this is a continued hearing we began at your last Hearing in August and the board directed that the applicant return prepared to proceed with directions that the first witness that the board would hear from would be operations testimony got it so let me read it into the record then sir case number ba20 d118 for planes Partners LLC this is a use in bulk variants to construct a One Flex warehouse and one storage self storage building application of Fort Plaines Partners LLC as applicants and Fort Plaines Partners LLC lot Point 6.01 and 1499 holding company LLC lots 15.03 and 15.04 seeking use variants in bulk variance approval to construct a one-story Flex Warehouse with mezzanine office space and one 4story self- storage building with storm waterer Management systems on premises known as block 137 lot 6.01 15.03 and 15.04 Fort Plains Road this is a bifurcated application as the applicant is only seeking use variance approval at this time this application was partially heard on August 26 2024 when it was Carri to September 9th 2024 with no further notice eligible voters are burillo caner Hughes Mertens Ryan Scott and seya and Orosco all right and the expiration date is October 12 2024 okay Mr P we're back thank you the applicant uh is prepared to present one of the principal testimony with regard to operations moment ago I was told that I was not being heard in the back of the room am am I loud enough enough now is it working Lou guys move up they're connect a that prism is a microphone so it is recording yes yeah when we were before the board and at the August meeting there were a couple of questions that were raised I'm going to say some procedural items I'd like to address before introducing Mark younger to the board Mark is one of the three principles of Fort Plains partners and he'll testify to the operations he is a developer and has been developing in the tri-state area for the past 25 years including industrial buildings the there was a question about the sanitary sewer line that traversed our client's property and whether that line had the capacity to handle the residential properties that could potentially become commercial proper iies along the Route n Corridor east of our client site I was able to secure a copy of the asilt survey and I will provide that to your engineers it is an 8 inch line the designer of the line was Peter strong of Crest engineering and he said it has been designed to handle hundreds of residential units and is substantially unused currently it's a it's a gravity line with a 3% slope so the that se line is available to the public it's large enough to handle the public and to the commercial businesses that are along the rot on caror just north of the so it's if you look at the wedge that's shown on that aial that's behind our client's proposed buildings that's the area that it's in question it's in question they the line runs through our client's property and Services currently IT services KFC CME and chapter house so the line comes all the way up to service those it is available individuals would have to design their sewer line to get into it got it it's it's a gravity line it's very substantial thank you second just reminder we we made the absolute commitment that the Bungalows are coming down the process of serving notice on the property owners is ongoing it is not something that is it is not a land use matter before the board but the commitment that has been made by the applicant to the township is actively being pursued the Bungalows and will be removed from both sides of the street U just we made that commitment I wanted to repeat the commitment and with this evening Our intention as time allows us to present Mr younger's testimony with regard to the proposed operation of the two two businesses self storage and flex then to return to Lewis zner who has modified his exhibit slightly he added some green areas where he was requested to do so he's prep we added a fence where we were requested to do so we modified the Landscaping where we were requested to do so he and those are minor changes but we he'll go through those after his testimony with the v's permission we will then go to kaisel who is the architect who prepared the plans go through the footprints and the proposed uses of the building and also a little bit on the facade assuming facade is mostly forite plan last professional witness this evening is our traffic engineer Nick vesi Mr vesi will go through the on-site circulation and parking the board will recall that the last witness is Christine cfone the planner who when we were carried to this night announced that was not available we would need to come back for one additional hearing for whatever remains on Christine's testimony okay and we're still going to open the public tonight for the people that are as you direct providing information tonight that's we find that's that's fine okay so when we combine all these Lots together Charlie what's the size of this property 30 you know it off the top of your head Ken I can open think 33 Acres just just under 34 Acres yeah they have it in square feet on the planet that's why I can't tell you it's okay John I think there's one other procedural item the board will recall that we were asked to reach out to shie for a landscaping plan for the portion of the property where the Bungalows will be removed and we did and Miss SPO advised us that c C the principles at CME directed that she has conflicted out from providing any further landscape guidance on this it caught me by surprise cme's property is up there in the corner it's um I would like to explore and not certainly not tonight explanation why I don't have that plan asked for it but wasn't drawn I'd like to explore with the principles at CME that the applicant wav that conflict the last thing that we want to do is lose shie spau she has been working on this from day one her knowledge of the of the the site is is very deep but we'll find out I just don't have that answer this evening I have another question for Charlie Charlie the storage building yes what's the footprint it is 36,6 45 Square ft and I believe that's just that's in plan view so it's also four stories yes understood okay and then just to clarify so the lot area it's 32.2 Acres and but what they're actually proposing to develop with the application is about 14 acres so a little bit less than half of the the property in to Total but all the property is going to be contiguous and joined together cor correct correct but I'm just saying what they're proposing to develop with the application is just the southern half of it just just over 14 acres all right thank you okay Mr P thank you let's get him some more in let's get Mr Mark Junger under oath Please Mr Jer if you could stand do you affirm that the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes state your name for the record and last please sure if you want to go there that'd be fine that might be a better mic Mark younger and how do you spell your last name it's j n g e r the witness is sworn Mr P thank you sir Mr y I'm going to ask that you use the biggest voice that you can so that all can hear I've introduced you as one of the principles of Fort plane Partners that's an accurate description correct yes and that have indicated that you have 25 years of devel land development in the tri-state area including industrial buildings yes I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and then ask you to describe the proposed use of the two buildings the first building is a multi-story building that this is the building at the southern end the multi- story building it's intended to be self storage would it accurate to say this is a climate controlled multi-story self storage building yes and um assuming that this board is Grants the use variance relief and you return with site plan approval is it your intention to retain either a regional or a National self- Storage operator to manage the building for your company yes that's correct and the commitments that you make are commitments that you as the property owner make to this board and to the town and any property manager who comes on board will be responsible for being operating the business consistent with same correct very good I'm going to ask if you could confirm that there'll be no businesses that are conducted from the self- storage building correct there no yes strictly it's strictly storaged so nobody could come in here and operate a business manufacturing fabricating assembling of any any sort correct just the office for the for the Self Storage they have a little retail store usually let me ask you something Jen yes facility like this we have sprinkler systems yeah oh yes yes we do okay so as far as utilities for the building you would not allow there to be any utilities that a tenant could use no electricity no gas no Plumbing that they could use correct correct there' be light liting provided correct and and the building would be fully suppressed but the actual tenants the occupants will not be able to use the space for any business purpose correct and it's strange as this one sounds no one would occupy or live in any of these spaces it sounds strange but it's happened before stipulate that doesn't happen it's my understanding that you've explored hours of operation with s with businesses in the area that you anticipate that the business hours would be between six a. and 10 that would be the hours that individuals would have access to their their their storage facility correct from 10:00 at night to 6:00 in the morning there's no access at all to those facilities correct you'd also have office hours your office hours would be a lesser number of hours typically something like 9 to 5 9 to six something we could work out at a later day but the office hours are less than the access hours correct individuals access is either through a code or or a fob you would be giving individuals that kind of a control correct and also there would be you would have be able to monitor at all times who the tenants are which tenants are in the building and how long that they are there is that correct yes so can I just jump in and so what are you going to do if someone's there for a long period of time you'll have the we'll know who's there will'll know when they come and when they leave and then our next question was going to be you'll have a security system so that you can monitor the hallways at all times and that your security system would be on a 24-hour monitor correct we be care right so like my question is I'm not understanding why that's important so like what if I'm there all day what what does that mean we want to make sure that people are not there overnight okay okay that's that that's the goal and then then Jen like we did on Sunny Side yeah same rule right yes I mean I have questions about four stories which we have not allowed anywhere else okay um and the the need for four stories when there's a self storage across the street at The Jug Handle there's a self storage at Regal Plaza there's a brandy New Self Storage that's being built at Sunnyside there's also a self storage a little farther to the north I don't understand the need for four stories I'm just asking okay architect will be up shortly to go through building design M right but operationally why do you need four stories uh we've done studies that typical Self Storage is between 100 and 15,000 sare ft and this is what we came up with so have you looked at the self storage in how sure and which which Self Storage is 150,000 ft it's we did a a an independent study I understand that but I'm asking you have you looked at Howell and if you you said yes so I would like to understand which self storage facility in Howell is 150,000 sare F feet because I have yet to see that that we're not saying that the others are Mr younger is saying that we did a study and the study was selling us we need 100 to 150,000 Square ft and I'm saying to you okay so where was the study what were the parameters what geographic parameters did you look at they they usually do a study between three to five mile radius okay so I work in almost every town in Mammoth County so I'm curious where is there a self storage 150,000 square fet if I may if the size of the building is is going to be a discussion point we're prepared to have that discussion but I'd ask if we could just do the operations testimony intact and then we can go to well I mean respectfully Mr Pape I'm trying to understand why your applicant is proposing a four-story building the architect designed it per per direction from your client so he's not going to be able to tell me why he designed it the way he did he was just told to design it so these studies that you're referencing number one we don't have them right no and and that's fine I'm not asking for them I understand they're proprietary but number two the studies as you stated said 100 to 100 50,000 sare ft I within 3 to five miles I would like to know where there's a self storage within 3 to five miles of this location at 150,000 sare ft it I'm sorry it it hasn't the way the way it works is uh institutional they they look at this is what they need it's not a question what there is it's what they want I have to as a developer I have to try to accommodate that you know fulfillment to have between 150,000 sare ft otherwise I can build a self storage it's not going to be uh rentable or sellable down the road I I mean respectfully we have one that's going up currently that's way less than that that's it it's under construction currently we have one right across the street they came back in for an addition so I I I don't necessarily agree with what you're representing and four stories is beyond on what we've ever approved here so I mean we can wait for listen we can wait for the architect but I don't think he's going to be able to answer these questions so we went based on the height restriction that we could go and the height restriction we could go up to 45 ft which gives us four stories that's what we run by okay so I I'm just going to put to the board we have not approved anything at four stories anywhere in town the only thing that's four stories currently is the fountain mountain and that was a litigation settlement agreement that created a lot of of push back from the public so I think you guys should take a look at it and reconcile the fact that you're probably looking at three stories for the moment I'll say d duy noted and with permission I'd like to go back to let's go Mr thank you J you're welcome um I think the material statement besides the business ones that were just shared by Mr younger is the maximum height that was permitted in the zone was what we used as a controlling Factor not the square footage of rentable space but the the the height but that more on that later so um there there are statutes in the state of New Jersey it's amazing how specific the statutes in the state of New Jersey are on operation it's njs a CO njsa 2A col 44-1 187 at seek and it has the interesting name of selfservice storage facility act um and there are considerable requirements on how to how you operate and what would be in your lease if you could stipulate on the record that the leases whether they're your leases or a third party management will be in strict compliance with the statutory requirements of the town of of the state yes it will be a third party by any of the you um public cup companies and they would have standard leases those rental agreements give you the will give you the the right to inspect a unit if you suspect that there's anything that's being stored that's improper correct and those agreements will allow you to restrict the U Storage of materials so that there's no dangerous hazardous or flammable material stored on premises correct correct no storage will occur anywhere other than in a a tenants storage area correct so it's your goal to operate this as a traditional regulated self storage facility in accordance with the statute correct security systems would be developed with you the this board and the third party manager including the 24-hour monitoring commitment that I placed on the record would you affirm that that is a commitment that you were making to this board correct Mr chair we together went over all of these points we also reviewed the transcript that we've made with you on the other application to make sure that we were consistent and addressing all the questions that had come up during that hearing I'm prepared to go to the flex building operation with Mr younger do you want me to stop here for the board to inquire any questions for the Self Storage yes I have uh you refer to they as far as determining that you need four stories is this uh you have anticipate what the you're going to have that many tenants because as our planner said this is excessively bigger than the other ones like double so um I know we're talking about three stories versus four stories but we have to look at the square footage square footage is what drives this deal and it's it's not about the stories if you tell me you know you know okay no I I I understand it's it's also the amount of square footage means there's going to be a lot more traffic so you kind of put the two together so that's why it's it's getting a little hard to see you know this being a little a little higher than the other ones it's so usually Self Storage actually is not fully occupied that even though they build them they have the space but usually it's like 85 to 90% so even though it's built it's doesn't make sense but that's how it's it's done the industry so I would say that you could take off at least 10 15% that's going to be vacant so and I just want to clarify for the board too right so it's a math equation right if you were to reduce it to three storage you could still get 100 to 150,000 square feet just the footprint would have to expand you know so I mean if they're saying that's the market analysis that's what they need if the issue is three versus four stories they certainly could accommodate that by modifying the site layout making the footprint brigger making it three stories and just to give the board context so the prior application that this board acted upon within the last couple years was kand Corp which is currently under construction that was three stories just over 73 just under 74,000 square fet so you know that's what we've recently approved at the zoning board level for sell storage Charlie thank you because that's exactly you know the conundrum we're dealing with right is you know the second building versus this building and how the two interoperate and the size of it you know and what it looks like and how the intensity of use is going to be between the two of them so um but yes if you spreaded it out brought it down a little bit that means now it affects the other so let's let's go to it I I first of all I I I don't know if it's my place here but I I'll say it anyways um originally this was designed as a three-story building okay and before the actual Self Storage came into effect actual zoning um at that time we were told to do a three-story building and we had a bigger footprint where you see the gray area where it's the storm water the building was fully built of the whole thing but then I guess the engineers came back and said we got to trim the building because we have to add you know more Stone border so we had to figure out a way how to get more square footage so it keeps on every time we come back to the situation we get caught like same thing with a flex Warehouse it was one building and we we had to separate the two buildings uh we cut from all sides we took away a lot of area uh we had other buildings designed but we did that to accommodate everybody and to make sure that we could do this project and as far as traffic I mean we did the extra steps of even though it's not going to be officially the designated uh you know traffic entrance for the Self Storage but we did we bought the easement from KFC so we could accommodate extra traffic so we could go in and out officially it should be only used for the Self Storage next to the entrance over there that should be for self storage and the industrial the flex Warehouse should be for KFC Mr Young sure that's where the rubber hits if you separate and take the egress Ingress of the of the self storage and you block it off so that there is no movement between the two and then the other is dedicated to the outside that affects the traffic pattern actually go ahead sorry no I'll hear you yes I actually I agree with you let's say there's a wall over there and I think and actually it would be a good idea even because so we don't mix up I heard there was a concern about maybe maybe a trailer or a tractor comes in from the other entrance from Self Storage going into the industrial so we want to actually no it's not going to be an option and as far as to have the traffic coming in for for trailers into Self Storage side Charlie Jen I mean it significantly changes this then because now we one is dedicated to one egress egress and the others dedicated to the KFC Ingress egress so I agree but I think we should probably wait for Mr vetes to provide the traffic and circulation testimony in terms of you know his professional opinion before we opine on whether or not it works I understand the concern right because we don't want to mix the traffic and I know that we're getting to the operations of the flex which is of definite concern of the board given the size of that facility um and whether it really operates as true flex or it's just a warehouse and flex closing we'll get to that right so I I think we should maybe put a pin in the circulation and wait for the professional to provide the testimony thank you and would be Mr chair Mr younger and his Partners fully understand that this is a presentation and a dialogue we anticipate presenting and hearing from you and hearing from your professionals we anticipate that it is an active process with your permission strictly with your permission I'll ask Mr younger to return to operations testimony and take him through the flex building operations representations like to we're good wait um as far as the monitoring you said is 24 24 hours 7 days a week monitoring yes um of the storage facility who is in charge of monitoring that because you say there's concerns that we want to make sure there's nobody actually staying there so who's doing the monitoring there would be third party either we've talked to Regional and National companies you know when we did the Kalin they went to Extra Space Storage a national company there's a number of them the number's getting smaller they keep buying each other there's number of people out there doing this but would bring in either a regional or a national to do the management they also would manage the security our commitment is that there will be those elements and we'll fully develop it with you at site plan and we don't have that we don't have that in place yet no no I would suest should the board act favorably on the application before you come back for site plan have it you get that resolved yep that's how we did it the last time and the interior lighting um the storage facil I've been in and I'm sure they're all the same um when somebody walks in and they walking down a dark hallway the lights will just pop up right and they'll stay on for whatever those are timed motion and time motion and timing I I don't remember are there windows in the storage facility very little just for to show some doors like do for the what show the storage doors like just as an advertisement left say like a showcase okay you think of the U-Haul where you can see the from the front there's glass so you can see the inside doors right so the lights going on is won't be affecting people seeing from the outside no zero okay thank you we're good Mr Ryan Mr Ryan from the last meeting Mr pape I believe there was a followup from New Jersey water you were going to get some certification that it could handle the sprinkler systems for the the buildings Mr Zar will be back up after after Mr after Mr younger will'll tell you how far we got with them fair enough thank you yes Mr Rosco you good y okay Mr chairman yeah I I think just for the record you should know that we did conduct a site visit and specifically walked on that site where the storage warehous the storage warehous both make sure you use your mic for the record we did do we did do a site visit and walk specifically on the property where the storage facility is going to be and we also walked on the property where the flex Warehouse is going to be so we we do have some observ so and I I just want to add some clarity to because you know the board and professionals do acknowledge that there's been revisions numerous to this site layout and I just want to point out that you know uh making the footprint smaller the building necessitating it to make it four-story you know they're required to comply with the stormw management rules with the design right so you know obviously they're trying to maximize impervious coverage on the site because that maximizes the operations of the site but there's certain benchmarks that they need to hit with storm water management so changes to the footprint of the building and things like that you know at the end of the day they have to comply with the storm water rules and that's what dictates um you know mitigates the size of the development to a certain extent thank you Charlie that's why we all take our stor water and management training right on that point we as a team have been working on this project for seven years and during those seven years the storm water regulations changed at least three times and as this board knows and the public knows your engineer is very precise about storm water compliance so we although it's a use variance and not a fully engineered plan there is a lot of engineering as far as storm water and I'm sure that Charlie would back that up changed a number of times as those regul yeah I just want to point out that it's not like oh we're making you put Stone Water Management above Beyond what's it's you have to comply with the rules and that's why things are shown on the plans and that's why Footprints of buildings and things change it's not like we're being picking out one application over the other it's you have to comply with the town build out over the last 30 plus years we're grateful to the New Jersey D for continuing to revise because every time we touch something we affect somebody else and so we're trying to mitigate all of that okay so we've got two Flex buildings that you were presenting to the board for their consideration and there was some discussion about the the size of the modules and I know that working with your architect you've come up with where one module is 24,000 sare ft and all the remainder are between 8 and 10,000 sare ft is that accurate description of how the building will be laid out correct there was also a brought to our attention that the number of um entrance doors whether they are loading docks or Overhead Doors is controlled by the ordinance now we know that we're not in the flex area but we are looking at your Flex ordinance and doing the very best we can to comply with all of those elements did you authorize your architect to amend the overhead doors to be consistent with no more than one door per every 75 100 sare ft of storage area correct so reduce the number of doors and control the size of the spaces the control is 8 to 10,000 ft² for a module with one module is only one that's at 24,000 ft Mr P correct yes respectfully your architectural plans are totally inconsistent with what you just said there's a 35,000 ft space there's a 27,000 ft space there's two 24,000 ft spaces there's a 12,000 ft space and then there's other smaller ones so if you are proposing something different we don't have it we are and and that is inconsistent with what we're what we have they were revised we were only here two weeks ago and we worked with the architect on an almost daily basis and a revised floor plan that shows the demising areas as 8 to 10,000 and 124,000 was only submitted today your professionals did not have that opportunity to review it but we make the commitment and it'll be made on the record by Mr kaisel so I mean like that is absolutely not what I have and I understand that they were submitted today but not for nothing what you've proposed up till today is totally different from what you're representing so do you have so let me ask you this did you submit them as exhibits so we could see them on the on the screen yes yes all right so do you have them John Mr P we're going to need to take five on this oh okay all right and then you'll start you'll find the plans do you want you want the plans uping his or or Mr Kaiser's test no no we need them up now sure yeah okay I we're gonna take five the board will now take a five minute break and at805 thank you you're doing actually very I'm very this is but they're supposed to submit it to them not I don't want to Telles this chairman and I you'll just let him know which one he should put up actually there's one more on one of the buildings that's bigger but I'll correct I'll just tell it was we have a second one that's a little large okay very good very good CeCe CE oh CeCe Jam leak.com Leon L e o n s a a k i a n I know k i a n i don't even have you it doesn't even come up s a VA I'm a little slow today k k i n thank you. yeah.com I'll make fun of that it's never gone down well they're not going to finish anyway [Applause] [Applause] stad IDE is more active than self e meeting will now reconvene waiting on Andy too he's uh great he's GNA get his [Applause] seat okay Mr P so you really uh you caught us off guard there oh very sorry well 6 * 30 is 180 and what I'm saying is 30,000 it was not Flex in our minds and now you produce your your your your plans are starting to show that it is truly Flex correct that's last time we were here the expression about a flex building that's trying that's really a warehouse building needs to be we need to put controls in front of this board and that's why we are here with these controls yes okay make it Flex because that affects the length of the vehicles and everything else so okay so let me ask you a question goad has your traffic engineer revised his analysis based upon this change in the architectural plan on the type of vehicle not in writing but he's prepared to testify to these plans right but I mean this got submitted today at 430 which clearly Charlie and I were not proving to he's going to change his report on the fly like it at some point you have to give us something we Mr chair points are these are points well made when we were here on the 26th and the board was kind enough to move us to the 9th to continue we use that time to do as much revisions as we could knowing that we only had two weeks to work with and knowing that there's going to be a third here ing when the planner testifies I would ask that we'd be allowed to proceed knowing full well that your professionals will need to do a deep dive into what was submitted to provide the board with full counsel but we are prepared to take take us through these presentations this evening and I think develop an understanding with the board developing the understanding is fine as long as we're able to openly ask these questions and tell you what the conforming versus the non-conforming construct is Mr chair it is your meeting to run we will follow it as directed we're prepared I think to do to give a lot of color and a lot of guidance as to what your applicant is thank you sir all right so here we are we're going now over to buildings A and B or A1 and A2 or whatever you call them and do you want the this plan with the square footage of the modules you want that up as as he continues his testimony I want to decide which ones you know is this a formal exhibit now that's what they just subm yes and know they should probably mark it we got to Mark these eile These are in your packet as6 a26 there's a collection all together they are a26 the architectural plans is submitted with a revision date of 9924 so why don't we just identify what page number of the plans were okay I it would be it would help if I could have our architect sworn just so he could provide that guiding testimony Mr Junger patience you you're up for swearing in do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you got I do state your name for the record spell your last Irwin h kaisel k i z e l Mr kaisel would you share with the board your professional education background yes Mr P I am a uh licensed architect in the state of New Jersey since 1981 I graduated from Pratt Institute with a bachelor's degree in architecture in 1977 I since 1991 I've been with the firm of JAL kaisel Architects and Engineers Incorporated in Livingston newers JY we'll accept your credential sir thank you your testimony at this moment Mr kaisel is to tell on the record what the sheet numbers are of the plans as Mr as Mr Agri puts them forward what are we looking at right now we are looking at sheet a1.1 and this is uh Flex building. A-1 and this is the first floor plan of that Flex building could we go to the second Flex building the second Flex building is label sheet a 2.1 it we're calling it Flex building A2 I know that you got this plan in today and I also know that you and I have shared that there is an error on the plan if you could identify what the error is well the space in the lower right hand corner measures 12,000 866 Square ft as submitted it was our intent except for the one space to have all the units measure up between 8 and 10,000 square ft so it will be our intent to uh put a 10 and separate a demising wall halfway through the space so that it will be consisting of two spaces of approximately 6,000 square ft each and this is the one sheet that shows the one large module of 24,000 s ft that is correct and that's to the left of that lower right hand space what's the purpose of the 24,000 square foot you um the purpose oh if I may yes it's called Flex warehouse and we want to be flexible and uh to give us a little bit options not to you know just in case we have a tenant that needs a little bit more than 8,000 ft okay so I think that's that's where the problem becomes because in our view Flex is not 25,000 Square F feet Flex is smaller where you have a HVAC contractor or an electrical contractor they can't store their materials at their home and they need 5,000 square fet to store their materials 25,000 Square F feet starts starts looking like a warehouse we had gone over what we thought was the definition of flex with our architect and also looking in the marketplace and we were comfortable at 24,000 ft if the board and the board's professionals are not will take that piece of information home with us Mr chairman go ahead Mr K may I ask a question of the professionals janor Charlie sure when we say Flex Warehouse are these walls between we're not saying Flex Warehouse we're playing Flex space when we say Flex space are the walls that they build when they build this building originally permanent or or are they then adjusted depending on the tenants that come in so technically Flex means they can be moved flexibly which is one of the reasons why Charlie and I probably would have required that there be a condition in the approval that the space is no more than 8,000 square F feet okay otherwise the whole building can be used by one tenant and then that equals a warehouse so give the board additional context so we have approved previously on a couple occasions uh Associates BS Business Park up on oakerson road I think those two buildings are like 40,000 ft each and the tennants baces are somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 square F feet safe flight came into going into one of those tenis spaces so that is kind of what we look at as like a flex Bas breakdown I guess St life sa life not coming to hell then yes than but not on route nine okay we're prepared to describe the businesses that we're we're targeting and we had said 8 to 10,000 square feet with one at 24 I just heard Jen say a cap of 8,000 I asked that the board consider us going up to the 10,000 square fet but we'll take your message home we'll incorporate into our PL when we make our final presentation if I may if we could go through who you anticipate are your Target tenants I know that we discussed this considerably the target tenants you've explained to me are small contractors the plumber the con the electrician the HVAC contractor just as Miss beam had suggested the person who can't do it from his home but needs a needs a space for his for his equipment and materials is that your target tenant that's correct we also anticipate that there could be some light assembly some fabrication or repackaging it it's not uncommon for materials to come in on pallets to be broken down into smaller packages in a flex space is those typical uses that you would also Target yes you would there was also a concern that was raised with regard to fleet vehicles a very real concern that the there would be um a large number of vehicles that could be on the property we went over this and you have a finite number of parking stalls would you share with the board your commitment that there'll be parking stalls that are dedicated to each of the tencies so tenant would have certain parking sols that belong to that tenant is that correct correct and the only parking spaces that a tenant would be permitted to use whether it was during the day or overnight would be their own parking spaces correct so control over any fleet vehicles would be through monitoring the number of parking spaces that was available to that tenant correct you would also allow a tenant of course to park a vehicle overnight in front of their overhead door yes if you would also confirm that there would be absolutely no storage outside of the building no one's permitted to store equipment no one's permitted to store materials outside of their rental space corre well the the overnight parking of vehicles is considered outo storage okay I if overnight parking of vehicles associated with a business is outdoor out is considered outside storage we would want permission for our tenants to be permitted to park their vehicles in their identified parking spaces overnight and if relief is required for that we're asking for to clarify that can that's in the you're saying in the loading spaces or is that the parking spaces Associated the loading space overnight and the dedicated parking spaces that go with the Tendencies yeah you know I'll leave that up to the board's discretion but I we did have I think the U-Haul came in sell storage where they had shunting and they like moved that to the side of the building so it wasn't in the front area um if Charlie if you could what was the Restriction go ahead Charlie lay it out so that one there was like shunting operations for the U-Haul and they did not have that in the front yard area um and I think also there's been prior planning board application where there's a determination where parking of vehicles not in a parking space was outdoor storage and that was not a permitted use is that correct Jen correct so therefore Mr P overnight vehicles are shunted in a specific spot title 39 we go in we make sure everything is being addressed and monitored correctly and there there's no overnight per se parking just in any of the spaces or in front of any of the doors Mr chairman this is very valuable information about another application that came before the board I need to go over it with Charlie to make certain I fully understand it our goal we know that we will have tenants that we'll have the small contractors going to have the number of vehicles that he wants to park on the property overnight we we anticipate that we want to make sure that we've accommodated that if there's restrictions on how many and where look to work that out well that'll have to be on site somewhere where it's shunted on site in other words approved An approved shunted area understood and so that's not on the plans right now but that's something that would have to be so and just to give the board additional Clarity on that right so I I believe the determination of the courts in that in planning board application was that uh the storage or parking of vehicles overnight in a front yard area was not permitted uh so Fort Plains is a technical front yard so you have all the passenger vehicle parking along that uh for planes Frontage there the loading zones are technically in a rear yard so that wouldn't be something that would be um outdoor storage in the front yard area so but anything that's on the I'm calling the back but it's really the front because the fort planes is a frontage so all those passenger vehicle parking spaces if they were to park Vehicles overnight there that would be parking in the front yard area so might I ask a question um so if the they were to reduce the size of this building could there be the possibility of them being able to shunt you know the parking somewhere else on the property or is that still going to be a problem no they could if they reduced the overall size of the buildings or removed one of the buildings yes exactly yep um I will say that this board has routinely required if there's storage of vehicles overnight be put on concrete as opposed to asphalt based upon got you know if there's a leak or something like that and there are environmentally sensitive lands you know on this property that has been typically the practice of the board that they be stored on concrete in a designated area so you know it's definitely something that needs to be vetted out and looked at more closely but I think that you know we have we need to get to the point where if the board is uncomfortable with the side in the scale of the flex we have not yet gotten to that point but if that's something you guys are are thinking we probably need to discuss that tonight so when they come back they understand what exactly it is you guys are looking for yeah I think my bigger concern is not only the size of this but also the fact that we're talking I'm going to go back to the self storage for a second because I meant to I wanted to say something before but I wanted to kind of combine it into this you're looking at over what 150,000 square feet of that plus this plus the second building you mentioned earlier that on average 85 to 90% capacity at 150,000 square feet or whatever the size of the the self storage is how it doesn't in would you agree that the likelihood in the next three years of that getting anywhere near 80% is going to even happen so you're going to have a building that could potentially be not usable along with the other space for a considerable amount of time and that would to to to I would think would be a concern with the board the the boards certainly can have concerns with regard to the intensity of use but it would would suggest board marketability of the building and the economics of the building's operation or the problem of the tenant not the problem of yeah but you're talking an exorbitant amount of space but the the intensity of the use is something that is certainly within the purview of the board just not the economics what are the sizes of the parking spots are they just for passenger cars or I need to get Mr back up and we'll do it okay they're Mr Ms they're 9 foot by 19 that's what's required for ordinance for passenger vehicles so you're not parking a box truck or anything like that it would be probably um fleet vehicles for a user like if a plumber hbac had like technicians or something like that yeah they could con yeah exactly thanks Charlie okay Mr P thank you back to where I left off and I I think the last point that I to be made is although this type of use you're anticipating that be it's the box truck the van that type of a vehicle your your engineers have been directed to design it to accommodate the movement of a tractor trailer not that that's the anticipated primary delivery vehicle but that so that it's not trapped on site it can maneuver in and out of the site if necessary correct Mr chair that is the operation the Flex building operation that's offered by the applicant all of these would be commitments that would be permanently associated with the property whether it's managed by our client or by third party management Okay C Charlie can we see the uh the first building again Mr agar all right so it's like 10 Flex baces the 24,000 square foot area the office area right go go back to that again see what the other sheet so Charlie what's the front and what's the back of that building so the shot uh the lot is uniquely shaped right so you you do have Frontage on Route N9 when you get down towards um uh where the cell storage is proposed down by the Home Depot but yeah but you also still have Frontage on Fort PL so for the sake of the flex space the two buildings that are on the northern part of the site I would say the front yard area is actually along Fort Plains Road um all the loading would be to the to the rear the rear yard area so the East oh okay so those are parking spaces correct yeah they're nine 9 by9 which complies with the ordinance requirement and then you you can see the Self Storage down on the end there you got the the one way in and out uh that's also Frontage on Route 9 so for that uh the rear actually is Home Depot for that self storage building and then the front is Route n but then you're saying the per permanent but if there were tenants that had fleet vehicles that they were leaving at the building they wouldn't be able to leave them on for yes yeah so um you know I think uh Mr chairman has brought this up on similar applications right you know if Vehicles depending on the user could differ you're going to fit a passenger vehicle in that type of space you know are there industrial complexes with flex space in the state of New Jersey where people are parking things with like trailers or toe behind trailers and stuff like that certainly you know requirement to have everything striped as fire Lanes in compliance with title 39 would help mitigate like a free-for-all throughout the site and I think that's something Mr P the applicant would be amendable to as a condition of any board approval fire lanss to the satisfaction of this board and the fire chief and of course title 39 enforcement on the site are acceptable conditions and and just to follow up kind of where Charlie was going you know I've seen these Flex Bas type buildings where you have like a landscape contractor running out of the one of the tenant spaces and all of their equipment is stored in the parking lot which is landscape trailers all kinds of things that are not going to fit in a regularly sized parking space making it difficult for other tenants let alone visitors to the site so given the fact that you have literally zero oversized parking spaces are you committed that like a landscaping business is not a tenant that you would entertain at this location it's not that it would be a tenant that that any tenant that is a landscape business is not permitted to store equipment outside of their demised area or they'd have to park inside the flex space that's what he just said yes right but I mean I've seen like Central Jersey landscaping where they have hundreds of vehicles so they're not fitting it in an 8,000 foot space so it's been you know trying to maneuver through as a as other tenants they basically take up the entirety of the parking lot because their vehicles do not fit in a parking space or a truck with a trailer attached to it still attached parked taking up the entirety of the parking lot so that's the concern in the land use business I have learned that landscape contractors are constantly looking for a place to operate their business they're it's so hard for them this is not a contractor's yard this is a flex building not a contractor's yard and we can work out with the board and the board's professionals language that assures that that is the intention of the testimony that we just presented to you Mr younger you good yes okay I have nothing further Mr younger he is available to the board and for examination if there's further questions Well what we'll do Mr Pap is we'll hear the other testimony and they will open up the public okay and then so so they could stick around for Q&A okay no one's going anywhere all right younger thank you very much thank you then I'll ask that Mr zner return that he present the revisions that he's made to the plan remind him that he has sworn and remind the board that his credentials have been made a part of the record Mr zner is the professional engineer responsible for the plans before the board Mr zner if you could identify the Rev plan that you submitted to now this is a plan that also was submitted today and accordingly the Deep dive by your professionals has not yet occurred so G I believe it's marked as 827 it's the colored site rendering if you recall I presented a very similar site rendering at the last hearing this has just a handful of modifications to it I know you've already been uh looking at it and seeing it for other reasons and be more than happy to go through what we've modified here I with if you would Point by Point identify the modification where it appears on the plan and if there's a specific Genesis as to why it was placed on the plan please share that certainly so obviously what we changed came out of what we had heard at the prior hearing we evaluated and wanted to share these potential changes it's not truly a plan change this is just the colored rendering uh first thing I would note and this was really more on research and Mr agar had helped us there was a discussion on Lots 10 and 11 which front on route nine and they are if you can't read the numbers they're Central to our property uh and they are joining land in a commercial Zone there's some question about whether those two had residences or not and we did confirm they are indeed commercial Lots so the way we have shown and maintained the 50ft residential buffer we believe is correct on the plan it's accurate uh but what it does bring into question and I just would point out there are 15 vehicle parking spaces that you can see now on our property uh it's right near where the center angled Flex space building is uh and there's been some talk previously about that those 15 do conform to the 50ft residential offer but we uh it's not an essential number in our parking calculation so we would really defer to the board if they're objectionable in that location we can relocate those spaces to the board or to the board professionals if there is a a planning reason why that locating those parking stalls is not to your pleasure as Lewis just said we can we can find another place for them they don't have to be there another element we wanted really just to be clear in the colored rendering uh it had evolved a little bit there's a space between the two Flex space buildings this is a 25- ft Corridor uh it originated with your fire chief had asked for 255 ft there and when we' shown that in a prior rendering we'd shown it as paved uh but uh through discussion with your professionals it seems much more appropriate to be green space uh it's not meant to be vehicle access it's just meant to be sufficient separation between the buildings so that is now colored in green that would be green long and that would certainly prevent the the evolution of that into becoming someplace where people are parking or storing things so we felt that the green area was a good idea um one other element which I would say is probably not really something entirely visible in the rendering but there was discussion and I wanted to be clear this application would have two Monument signs uh one for each of these uses one for the Self Storage would be at Route n on the lower right hand side one would be off of the rendering but would be at the new access uh KFC as we came in we did discuss this before we tried to find a way to show it in the rendering but it wasn't really clear to be shown uh but those two Monument signs and they would be individual signs one for one use one for the other use pointed out that the one that's for the self storage is on our property the one that is on that is for the flex building is on with within the easement and right of way that our clients have purchased over the KFC property they have control over it but they are not the record owners they have the recorded easement and right avoid but not the record owners of the property I think that would require a variance to have a sign that is not on the site uh another item and I believe a member of the public had raised this initially as a a point this does now reflect the idea of a fence we envision it as a vinyl fence along the fort Plains Frontage and we would see this from left to right going along the entirety of the development on Fort Plains Road from where we have the emergency access lower left hand of our site here to uh behind the Home Depot where our storm water basin is you can see in a dark gray sort of square shape so providing fence along that length of the property we we propose it to be six feet tall we propose it to be vinyl we propose it to be a 6foot vinyl fence so it's not climbable the qu the issue that was brought to our attention is attractive ATT of nuisance to the children who might want to use the asphalt areas for their sporting events or rollerblading um and if you could also I think there was a discussion oh and that the fence would be located inside of the burm so that the fence would not be visible to the public what would be visible to the public would be the burm and the Landscaping could you take that through that uh again not quite at a site plan level so this you know is open right now is a line on a plan to construct the fence but our thought would be that it could continue along our parking area so that it would provide the security but not be the main visual focal point there was also some suggestions from Sher and I know that we gave Sher the the permission to leave so it's necessary to say that we do agree to work so as of right now she's conflicted out of this case right but well I think what uh you were suggesting we talked about this but you can see now this is reflecting that we would preserve trees in the 50 Foot residential buffer where they're adequate construct a BM and Landscape it where it's insufficient uh this plan also reflects uh a change in the number of overhead doors that had come up previously so while it's not necessarily the permitted use in this Zone uh we were trying to follow your Flex space ordinance from other zones and there were too many overhead doors so that number has been reduced here it's actually reduced it was 18 and is now 16 Overhead Doors those are the revisions made on the variant sketch wait wait wait wait wait the you're showing us 10 Flex baces at 10,000 square feet that's 10 doors no your door control is 7500 Square fet per door yes but so where are all these roller curtains going need Irwin to come back but there are some spaces that would have more than one door I'd like to see that and then if I might one other element this had come up previously I had heard we had looked into a little further uh the water line that's in Fort Plains Road and that would provide water service to this site clearly at this point we haven't designed and building hasn't been designed for fire suppression but it's a 16-in water man in Fort Plains there actually is a water Tower at the corner of Fort Plains and West Farms uh we do know that the flow and pressure here are strong we've spoken with Jersey American would have to be fully designed but the the flow and pressure for fire suppression are very good here um there's certainly be no reason for a tank on the site or anything like that whether a building needed an internal fire pump that seems unlikely to me here but there's always the potential could have a mechanical fire pump in the building but I think that's unlikely could you describe the type of test or study that New Jersey American Water will do when we ask them to confirm that the water pressure in the line is acceptable in fact we actually have asked them to do it uh but they will do a flow test uh in a number of locations nearby uh in order to determine the actual flow and pressure closest to the site so you and you've initiated that we have made that request we would stipulate to this board that at the time of site plan that detail will be provided and the Assurance is that there is a water supply sufficient to provide a suppression system in the proposed buildings exists at at the site do you have anything further this evening I do not any board members have any questions Mr Zar could you just tell us where the fence begins and where it terminates on the drawing uh yes um so if you look along the we talked about the vehicle parking side of the buildings the bottom of the plan it would be on below the curb in between the curb in the burm and Landscaping and from left to right uh other side of the building uh we would have it from the emergency access where we you see the gate and it would run it you can see little x's and dashes uh and would run along the back of the curb from that emergency access Lane to uh if you scroll to the right on this plan to where we have a storm water basin uh between our two buildings that's the location that we propose if your board if the board of your professionals believes that it needs to be tweaked or modified we're looking for that guidance as as well I I think a member of public when they mentioned the fencing idea to keep the kids out said the the access gate wasn't going to be sufficient alone so just going to one part of the access gate and not coming off the other side I I don't think accommodates what they were trying to achieve by having it fenced we go back to the sketch that end I I believe I understand what Mr Ryan is saying is that we're bringing it to this gate it should be integrated into the gate and then continue U uh we can't continue all the way down the length of the property but there's a retaining wall there it could continue to the retaining wall to the left of our property and would put a a complete barrier that you couldn't get around that would be probably does that sound correct that would be wise to do yes thank you is there fencing along the back is there fencing along the back behind at the top is there left oh uh towards Ro n we have not proposed fencing on that side is don't we run into the same problem with kids walking off Lot 12 or lot 9 or 10 or eight or or coming down that driveway there coming into the into the development would defer to you but I we have hundreds of residents immediately across the street from Fort Plains I think that was what we were asked to create a barrier to defer to you I don't don't know are all these Lots commercial yes yes all of them are commercial Jen they're Zone commercially there may be some remnants of residential historic I think I think they clarified that yeah we John helped us out they're all they're all commercial or falling apart and unoccupied and while we're on the topic so the that driveway that's going to be brought into the um complex from the top there what what does stop somebody from walking along that to get into the nothing prevents someone from walking in M Mr P yes sir so this brings us to and this is where the dialogue starts right Jen Charlie the public storage is going to be fully gated and closed in correct otherwise how would you stop folks from getting in there and if you segregate the public storage from the flex space and you have dedicated entrances in the exits from the two spots that changes a few of the things here with regards to the flow of traffic which we're going to hear right but it also you know changes the aspect of what you're going to fence and what you're not going to fence and how you're going to fence building so uh Mr chairman there is no planned defense in the uh self storage building at the moment all the storage is internal to the building so the security of the building is the building itself would not not be our intent to fence that in not like it's a campus where you have multiple doors going into the building there's controlled access to the building so does a roller curtain door go up when you drive in does the public storage have well I gu I'm assuming it's elevator right it's not that you're driving up no there's there's a a a main door to come into the building and freight elevators people would have access in a main door to bring in pieces there are overhead doors at the first floor only along the back side of the building so how do you stack when you have multiple tenants that are trying to get to there the traffic engineer I'm sorry Mr I'm just so so you're clarifying there's no fencing going around the public storage okay and we have the commercial property that's all a b you know a touching yes and we're not going to go ahead and we're going to just use the natural Forest Area to be the the security boundary for that side of the property is that correct it it's I would say up for some discussion but B that suggestion came to us to preserve those existing trees uh and hearing that suggestion I agree with it those are nice mature trees in that in that section of what would be the 50ft buffer uh they're they don't appear thin or easy to see through to me they it seems like a solid buffer but if you want the defense to be at a greater length in that direction we're looking for your guidance we like Mr Ryan's guidance at the North End see a similar need at the south then please share that with us Mr chair I think your suggestion even though they were not proposing is that you want the uses separated on the site if they're using two separate access points we don't need the flex traffic intermingling with the Self Storage traffic correct correct correct so I get you don't have it separated now but I don't understand the point of having it intermingling they're two separate and distinct uses if is is it the the point that was just made is it the board's preference that these two uses be physically separated from each other yeah yes yes that was kind of my point before yeah I mean we got to decide if the circul you're going to be dividing it or not tonight and I think our feeling is we should have it separated well the more testimony from Mr from Nick that will place on the record but looking for your we're looking for your position and perspective okay I have nothing further of Lewis anything for the engineer just just getting back to that I don't know if my question was answered or maybe I wasn't paying attention so that North Ingress egress where we're going to make that driveway coming off of Route n the KFC by the KFC that's coming into the into the development where the flex warehouses are what's going to prevent kids on their bicycles going into that space on during non- business hours over the weekends we didn't see that as an issue if you see it as an issue we we'll see if there's an answer but you know I mean technically you're not allowed to ride your bike on Route n yeah and we don't see a lot of kids riding their bike on Route n they're not used the bicycle I mean kids can walk on I mean I think we should be considering people just moseying onto that property I don't know where they'd be coming from I I don't either I I mean people that are walking on Route 9 are going to the bus stop they're not just like Meandering and we're not in a neighborhood we're talking that driveway goes directly out to Route n so you're not talking about an area where you're going to have people just Meandering they don't do that that's not how that works they are literally walking to the bus stop up by Home Depot if they're walking at all but those that are walking on Route n are going to the bus stop they're not just like let me see what's down this road that's not what's happening on Route N I don't really think that that's a legitimate concern we could put signage up that says no pedestrians those signs no skateboarding no bicycling we can put those signs up and the private property will be enforced title 39 all of that message can be there but I I appreciate Miss beam's comments I think that it's it's not a concern that we had Mr Hughes wants no I would just say that you know the concept would also go down to other really oh sorry but this would go down to the other entrance too so I mean if someone you know I get what everybody's saying about that because they come up this road they certainly could go into that other entrance and wander but I agree there's no one walking there so it's not the same but it's similar to other commercial us up and down Route n where so they're safe to assume there's a site manager their site manager got cameras monitoring who's coming and going and all of which we commit to and all of which would be developed with you at site plan any other question yeah would the security we probably have outdoor I mean I know it's probably operational but that would be 100% correct yes 100% so I guess that's another way to control with cameras is that what you're said yes yeah outside yeah inside and outside cameras Mr Rosco okay Mr Ryan good answer my questions and you good I'm good all right ex good good okay all right Mr P we're good professionals you're good yes thank you if I could Mr chair i' only need three minutes to to speak to the next witness if we just take a very brief the architect we're talking about yes sir yes we just have a brief break speak all we're taking five minutes I we're taking five minutes the board will now take a five minute recess and reconvene at 8:52 thank you Eileen we're back the meeting will now reconvene Mr Pay yes sir so we have Mr kaisel in front of us we have Mr kaisel in front of us his credentials are before the record and he's under oath and he is prepared to present his architectural treatments and FL plans to the I'd like to see the 16 sliding Overhead Doors well we don't have that well well how do you how speak on the record please how do you how do you uh account for well I could explain it by looking at the plan all right let's do it so and I may my eyesight May I'll look at that plan and you folks can look at that plan well so this is what we're calling the A2 building you're nobody could see or hear you and the and the board if you're pointing to that one has has no idea what you're pointing at let me get my my sheat sheets here at home tell us what is up in front of the board right [Applause] now what is in front of the board right now is she for this presentation sheet a2.1 it's building what it's we call this building A2 so let me I'm going to start from the left and work myself to the right th this building is approximately 73,000 Square fet um that includes the mezzanine there's a me that runs across the front of the building for offices but to address specifically your point the first space on the left has one one drivein Bay and that's the other other side that that that has one Drive-In Bay and that's the rectangle to the right exactly that's the first space the second space on the right side of the dotted line has one Overhead Door the space to the right of that on the other side of the dotted line has the third Overhead Door representing the third space to the right of that there's a darker line please note that there's a change in elevation between the first three spaces and the space on the right so this building has three different floor levels so it's really virtually impossible to have this building combined because it has three different floor levels and a tenant will never want to have a space with multiple levels in it so to the right is that space that we were talking about before you know the large space of over 20,000 Square ft that space can be further subdivided based on whatever perspective tenant comes along that space has two overhead doors that would be door number four and door number five the reason they uh are different size doors is we just you know we give them one Higher door in case they want to bring a high element into the space the door to the right is a lower door so those doors are the first five doors in this space now if you can please Slide the drawing to the left exposing the last two spaces now the space in the lower right is we apologize I apologize for the mistake but that was intended to be divided into two spaces equal spaces that space has and that's a that also is on its own floor level that has two doors it has the door the rectangle on the lower right which is is a dock height door and the door right above that which is a drive-in door that lar large long rectangle is a ramp that a vehicle can drive in and unload within the building now above that rectangular space there's a there's an odd shaped space that's also intended to be a uh you know a flex space but it do that one in its present configuration does not have an overhead door so it had it will have two people doors and it may have an overhead door but that would have to be refined later on in in the process but that's a relatively small space and again the intent is that there will be none of these walls are low bearing walls but the intent is that there's going to be a tenant separation wall at three locations in the building with the floor plans change level we don't anticipate any tenant Banning from the higher level to the lower level or vice versa anywhere else in the building there can be a tenant Separation Will erected and when that tenant leaves another and then and someone larger or smaller comes in it could be reconfigured U so that is the character of this building and then again we took into consideration the board's comments from the previous meeting they want it smaller you want it smaller scale and this was our effort to creating a small smaller scale Flex building that uh can accommodate small businesses okay so so I think earlier we asked if the applicant would be amenable to putting a cap on the maximum square footage of the tenant space which I think Mr Pape said 10,000 square ft is that correct Mr yes so those walls are going in and you know you're not going to get two spaces because that's going to be Way Beyond the 10,000 square fet so they're going to be what they are correct well yeah I mean they yes the short answer is yes so and that is going to hold true for that 25,000 ft space as well correct we we heard that you that 25,000 ft exceeds what you consider to be Flex We need to break that down into smaller spaces great okay so that's seven doors on that one building let's take a look at the other building okay so we will now go to the sheet the previous sheet which is labeled a 1.1 this is this is simpler this building is depi presented as um seven tenant spaces all under 10,000 square ft close more closely to 8,000 square ft it has two floor levels due to the slope of the site the first three levels are low the ne first three spaces are low the next four spaces are high so again starting on the left hand side that space has a drivein where the arrow is that has a drive-in Bay and then to the right of that it has a loading Bay which is a loading dock height Bay the next space how many square I'm sorry if I can interrupt how many square feet is is that space um that F that first that first the first that first is is 8,272 Ft I and you have two loading do loading docks all right so but as Mr Pape said you were trying to go along with the flex space um as it says in our ordinance and the ordinance says no more than one loading dock per 7500 squ feet of flex space go ahead we took that as the the totality of the square footage of the building so we divided the total square footage of the building by 7500 Square ft and we came up with 9 something so we knew we needed less than we knew that if we had nine spaces nine loading spaces on the build within the building that was less than 1 per 7500 Square ft if you want if you interpret it to mean that one space of less than you know one space of 7 500 square ft or less can only have one loading space so so be it but we took it as the the aggregate square footage of the make sure that we don't have more than 1% so to clarify I think and Jen can chime in if I'm speaking off Bas here but I think the intent to the ordinance right the where it is a conditional use in the HD 1s right there's a maximum cap on the gross area of flex Bas I think it's like 75,000 ft right so when you calculate the 1 per 7500 it's not taking the totality of building A1 and A2 and it's this square footage and divided by the number of loading docks we comply right because a loading dock in A1 at the far end unit can't service a tenant space over in the other end so it would be comply the 1 per 7500 for building A1 based off of the total gross FL area divided by the number of docks and then building A2 comply with that same requirement it's not one building and we have this loading space that's servicing all tenant spaces throughout both buildings they're two separ buildings and you need to comply with the 1 per 7500 for each building independently is Irwin's interpretation correct for this building or wrong no wrong one no so from what I'm understanding he took the overall square footage of both buildings and each building individually so I'm just going to lay it out there one loading dock per space period yeah that's what we're going to look for you don't need two for 8,000 square ft that's ridiculous so one per the I don't understand why you didn't make both buildings rectangular but that's your design and so that one space doesn't get a loading dock oh well but you don't get to to slide it in somewhere else so one per that's it so that's going to have to be redesigned and honestly we're going to have to work on this architecture regardless because the renderings are not going to fly at all they do not comply with our architectural requirements you don't have Fen strations You have no water table you have no vertical Brakes in the building and so all of these buildings are going to need significant architectural changes so we can work on that but the way that they're designed right now is not going to fly we will work we understand and accept what you're saying and we will work with within the ordinance to uh satisfy the architectural requirements of attemption which is basically me so I'm just letting you know that if I say no you're going to have a problem so what I'm saying is is that there are very specific requirements that we require and we have been very flexible with those requirements understanding the usability of the internal space but what you have right I mean I'm looking at the screen right now it's like a blank wall with some loading docks that's not going to work so we're going to have to if the board even acts in the affirmative on the application which I'm not opining one way or the other if we get over that hurdle there's going to be significant architect architectural changes that happy to personally work with you to make you satisfied with the architectural design of the building hey hey Jen while we're just on this um since we're kind of going off this ordinance for the HD3 Flex space where it is permitted not permitted here says um no building containing Flex space shall be lodged in 75,000 ft in area um what is what is the spirit of that what what what is the intent is it the intent that should have one building no okay but the intent is that we don't have people coming in with a 250,000 foot flex building which ultimately is a warehouse that's the intent is to keep it small and manageable so it actually does act as Flex because and Mr P can can attest we have another municipality where we have someone coming in with 250,000 square fet there's a space carved out at 1,000 square ft and 249,900 attention because warehouse space is usually way larger than 75,000 Square ft so if you had hypothetical if you had 300,000 Square fet you had you can break it up into 4 75,000 yes square feet out okay thank you so since we're talking about square footage um the A1 building is has a footprint of 62,939 186 Square ft which is intended to be office conference rooms and so on and so forth um the total building area is 71,7 square ft that's just for the record um the clear space inside is approximately 20 6' 8 in and um like I want just this this a subsequent comment applies to all the buildings they're all of non-combustible construction they're all fully sprinklered and they're designed to comply with the latest code requirements both environmental you know and you know electrical and so on to conserve energy and so on and so forth so they're all intended to be very safe buildings and uh you know that that would be that you know that's a summary of of every building now if you could go the second what we're now calling building A2 and by the way we split these buildings based on the comments of the board at the last meeting the idea being to reduce the scale of the building the second building which is A2 if you could go please to the next slide just for the record the footprint of that building is 66,1 73 squ ft the mezzanine area you need the next building correct yes if you can go to the next slide please that's it the mezzanine area is 698 Square ft and uh the total if my arithmetic is correct is 73,000 081 square feet now I'm sorry what was the flex area 6 66,1 173 now the number of Overhead Door loading doors in this building are somewhat disproportionate this building has seven Overhead Doors space one has one space two and three each have one the larger space which we're going to make smaller has two so we could put a wall down the center reduce the size of the space and like I said the space on the lower right will be divided each one will have its door and this the current space that angular space above it currently has no loading doors so that is the way the building is configured um with respect you know they're set up they will be individually designed based on the perspective tenant but they will have restrooms and a Stairway to the to the floor above um a a vehicle May either back up to the Loading doors May either Drive in or if they don't have to you know load or unload they could take the stairs up from the rear of the building into the individual space and like I said previously this building has three flooor levels uh the lower on the on the left the medium on the right and the higher to the right of that do each of the spaces have exhaust fans you're saying cars can drive in well if the space is each space will be designed based on the tency if it's going to be if it's going to be used as a drive-in space it will have a Cod compliant exhaust system thank you the mezzanines are on a second level there's stairs to get there there will the mezzanines are on the second level correct so there's no handicap access to those there is currently no handicap access to the mezzanines uh under the uniform construction code if a mezzanine is less than 3,000 square feet it doesn't need a handicapped access but the code does require that if there are employee spaces on an unaccessible mezzanine such as what we might have here the same spaces need to be duplicated on the floor below so if there were a a employee uh you know lounge and kitchenette on the second floor the tenant would be obligated to provide a similar space on the first floor okay so for this building A2 so you have HJ and K right so each one of those mezzanine will have a separate mezanine space with its own axis so they'll definitely be under 3,000 ft how about for Flex Bas L where that's one long mezzanine space there well if it's I don't I don't know if I have the square footage of that mezzanine let me um we're also going to be breaking that up yeah we'll be breaking that space up so okay it's going to be under 3,000 ft but in the event that it was one tenant space you'd have to provide separate on the first floor that's Ada accessible and has all the same services and all that kind of stuff okay thanks but in any event this is all mandated by code we have we will build perms and all that well that's information yes got the height of these buildings the well start with A1 what's the height of the building is is 37 Feet 6 in it's it's misleading because because you start with the average grade plane around the perimeter of the building and then you take that plane to the highest point of the building so where the building steps up so it's measured from the lowest floor on the left from the lowest great plane on the left to the highest point on the right and that ends up being 37 ft6 in but in reality each individual segment is lower than that so the roof will step and the clear space within the building is approximately 26 feet 8 in that's uh that's acceptable 26 feet 8 in clear inside the approximately clear inside the building the definition of height that creates that 37 six it's not if you actually there that's a you can yeah so so the right so the site has a significant amount of gray change so there's different tenant or different uh spaces like in A2 where it steps down three spaces so on the one side of the building you could have a 4ft water course you know to where your building slab actually is on the other side it could be flush with grade so when we do calculations for a building height you take all four corners of the building you find the average and then that's what you measure your height from I think what he's saying the 26 fo8 is from the building slab interior to the building to the top of the flat roof is 26 fo8 and then they've got another 3 and 1 half foot plus or minus powerit above that for mechanical screening and things like that and we're measuring it to the top of the parit correct so it's 26 ft inside inside inside one of each one of those buildings okay okay so would you like to hear any more about these two A1 and A2 buildings actually I do so back to the U the 24,000 space being that that has to be reduced right how are you planning on putting B especially with the Angles and everything you have going on I I would basically divide the space in three you know the walls can go anywhere and uh we'll we'll divide the space in three and put a wall no what I mean is you have Bay going into each one so or you have two bays currently in the 24,000 it has to have three what are you going to do with how is that going to be done has a maximum of three maximum of three okay so if you do two we will take the space we will take one of the we we may add one we we may have to add we're going to have to add a a garage door to this building but it will still be underneath the 20 the 7500 Square ft we're going to create three spaces in the large space we're going to add an Overhead Door there and we're going to and we're going to need the two Overhead Doors the two loading bays in the lower rightand space so we're going to have instead of seven we're going to have eight by by rule I believe we could have nine so we're still going to be under the required number of spaces Mr Ryan are you good am I'm just trying to figure out how you're fitting it with that angle there that angle doesn't you we're we're not is that able to be likejust that angle you know that's why we get paid the big bucks to figure out the angles but no um I got to ask we'll make it work we're going to make it work Mr Ros but but there's going to be a lot a lot of additional as you may have heard from your planner there's going to be a lot of additional work put into the design of these buildings the point being we're going to stay under no more than one dock space for 7500 square fet and uh we'll make we'll make it work in accordance with those requirements St good Charlie Jen I know that Mr I know that Mr kaisel has the elevations designed for presentation I did hear Miss beam's comments um could we briefly present the architecture just to hear the board's visceral response or not I would leave it up to Jen understood I mean it's going to look vastly different if the board here come back so I don't know I mean it is very plain consistency and continuity within the town I think Mr P wants to punish me you how toight no I don't want to you know Mr kaisel that it although although Miss beam's opinion is very valued by everyone in the building on screen it's his Mona Lisa and I thought he might want to present it to you either way I'm happy to talk about it so it's going to change well if it's going to change change and let's let me start so in case you know it results in additional comments and additional you know wisdom from your part to US future guidance I think that the answer has come loud and clear okay okay okay Mr Pape okay we're ready for the traffic engineer sir very good thank you very I thank you very much you can't leave but thank you very much anyway thank you do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the hold truth nothing but the truth to help you God yes it is please state your name for the record dis spell your Liv Nicholas Veri v r d e r e s e ver Mr Veri please share with all of us your education and professional background yes I have a Bachelor of Science in civil engineering from Ruckers University in 1990 I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey um principal founder of dynamic traffic uh located in Lake Como we'll accept your credential sir thank you where shall We Begin there's questions that have come during our presentation but I think that it would be best to begin with an overall description of the site with perhaps Mr Mr Z's last plan the rendered plan that Mr zner had marked in is a 20 is it s or 8 this evening if we could use that to describe general circulation on site I'll ask that you include a description of the two driveways the description of onsite circulation with some detail the colored one up there in the corner would be ideal that's one so on onsite access oh we don't have the full access on that on-site access from the highway on-site circulation we'll talk about parking and loading and um if you could take us through all of that in a narrative and I know the boards and the board's professionals have a number of specific questions that they're going to ask that you address yes if you would yes so I think you've already heard a lot of it but the existing I guess former KFC Long John Silver driveway that's currently on Route 9 at the north end of this property um is a pretty substantial driveway we're actually planning on redesigning that we went to the Department of Transportation we essentially got an approval we didn't finalize yet because we've been waiting for this project to move forward uh that included increasing some radi because we're going to have you know a little more truck traffic than maybe the fast food restaurant had in the past um substantial width on that driveway to accommodate the types of vehicles coming to this site uh and then the uh the souly driveway bifurcated driveway um again substantial radi for uh what is anticipated at Building B the Self Storage we don't anticipate tractor trailers there um I've been involved in self- storage facilities we don't design them for tractor trailers um I was a tenant of the U-Haul facility for uh probably 6 months a couple years ago when I was moving uh I was a resident of Howell for 10 years previous um and I did move to neighboring prle Township two years ago um so yes I commute past the site I know this area well I Drive West Farms Road a lot of days uh coming and going from work as well uh so that driveway it's located substantially away from the Home Depot driveway it's just before it it goes from two lanes out to three lanes in that area so there's a shoulder along Route 9 in that site and then it opens up to the three lanes uh again we'll need an access permit from the NJ do for that driveway um based on you know how this ends up if it ends up being two separate driveway serving two separate uses which I've heard some comments already um that may well be a minor access permit because the self storage is a very low traffic generator um so we'll have to figure that out when we get there and then the other driveway will need a modified access permit for the additional uh traffic from the uh from the flex buildings um so the driveways I'm comfortable that we're going to have driveways that work well and again it will have to be uh further looked at and designed uh if approved and we move towards site plan uh I I guess I'll start down at the self storage for circulation so we have the 15 spaces out on the Highway side uh then we have what I'll say five I'll call them loading spaces um on the front side near the 15 spaces there's three oversized 10 10 and 1 12T wide stalls there and then there's two loading stalls on the south end of the building uh and as I said I'm familiar with the U-haul they have five loading spaces so this essentially has the same so it's pretty similar to to what you know what you're able to accommodate and then the 15 spaces I mean you've seen Self Storage here in town um you don't really need much parking for Self Storage uh it's interesting that people's stuff just kind of sits in here and they come every once in a while to see it um and that has full circulation around the building so it's you know one way on the on the back I'll call the back side of the building 20 foot wide uh with a 10t or so um I'll call it a loading area there which I guess will be uh um for uh I think we have doors on that side for people to get actually in the doors and then uh anyone on the second third floors will be uh going in through the building and up the elevators so that's how they'll get into the building uh there's full fire access around we've you know vetted this out with the fire chief uh and we you know have his Blessing on how we've designed uh the circulation we have a plan that shows the fire truck uh circulating the site single unit vehicles and tractor trailer Vehicles as well um so that's that side of the site if I go to the other side of the site I guess there's there's a couple different uh elements there's the front side the fort PL roadside and you've all heard that's just lined with your 9 by9 parking St s with I think it's a 30ft aisle so it actually exceeds the the 24 ft requirement of the ordinance I think 30 is the minimum that we have we have about 70 ft uh in the area where potentially a tractor trailer May back into one of those loading docks so the way the site lays out um A1 is the one that a tenant that thinks he needs a tractor trailer Delivery would pick because that one accommodates the tractor trailers maybe the the first space on the North End of A2 as well but then as you go to some of those more oddly shaped one that you everyone was talking about earlier those aren't really set up as well for tractor trailers they're more likely so tenants that need tractor trailers aren't going to pick those spaces those would be single unit uh and Van type deliveries um in those spaces um again we looked at that tractor trailer uh backing in circulating the site I'm comfortable that the circulation works well there's a nice wide area where the loading is um and there's good fire access the plan has changed it was one full building now it's two separate buildings um if we do end up with two separate sites um where the self storage is is uh self-contained um I would recommend there to to have just the su3 and the fire apparatus be able to circulate which it does now so I don't see that we're not going to be able to make that work it may require some moving of the loading maybe on the south side of A2 to separate the two pieces um and then anyone from A1 and A2 would utilize the north driveway anyone from Self Storage would use the South uh so essentially any tractor trailer would used the north even though in this plan I anticipate the tractor Trail is using the north anyway but if someone did wander through the site to exit out um at the south end we check that and the tractor trailer can can exit we did not design it for the tractor trailer to enter that driveway no if you could speak to the there is a single driveway going out to Fort Plains Road if you could just describe what that driveway is talk about it what it's function is and if you could comment on does it serve the function that it's intended to yeah it absolutely does um it it's I guess 20 ft wide that's usually what the the fire department wants um and it's uh going to have a knock box so if for some reason fire apparatus is can't get to the site from one of the other two driveways which is probably unlikely I don't see this driveway really ever being used but it's there in the instance that um a fire apparatus needs to get there from Fort Plains Road uh as I said it's gated the nice thing not really a traffic element but a design element it doesn't go straight into the building so you don't have like a straight shot view looking into it like you would if this was a permitted use so if we put some retail commercial and some of the other um um uh uses that are permitted um and I was the traffic I would recommend my client that he had access to four Plains Road because it's a permitted use uh it makes a lot of sense because then you can get down to the traffic signal without going on the highway they want good access because all the people that live in tasana they want to draw them into the site or anyone that lives on the West Side uh East the west side of Route n if you're if you want to get to this site from the west side of Route 9 in this configuration you have have to get on Route n a retail tenant is going to want to have the people from the west side of Route n not have to get out on Route n make a U-turn and come all the way back because it's convenience um similar to The Way Home Depot set up because they're on the corner and they have access to West Farms they can get all the people from Route 9 without having them go on Route n from the west side so if I this is not it's not I mean it's a benefit here uh Within isuse in voluntarily choosing to not have the access on four planes I think helps the neighbors that are on four planes just one you're not suggesting that this is a deficient or defective site plan because we do not have access on for Planes Road no to the contrary you're pointing out that voluntarily giving that up reduces the impact on our surrounding residential NS yes because the tenants that are here I was a little confused the tenants that are here they don't they're not Desiring the what I'll call the alternative access to four planes because they're served from Route n they're not trying to get someone to their convenience store really quick from four Plains Road into the site and out uh so they don't mind the few times that someone comes to Self Storage they come on Route N9 and and they do it from the southbound Direction I think everybody understood it it was important that the record be clear you it wasn't your recommendation no okay um I'm not going to I mean we have testimony on the number of parking spaces I think we meet the requirement is there a limit on the size of vehicle that can come into the site no we have we show a full WB tractor trailer 52 ft um it might be a 48 foot trailer I think okay 60 WD 62 is what we're showing do you have anything further with regard so on-site circulation adequate and safe parking meets the ordinance comfortable with the two driveways there is a scheme that could be implemented if the board wanted to see these two uses um separated yes and we did do a traffic impact study relatively basic here it's not a high traffic generator neither uses a high traffic generator two driveways serving this much traffic is plenty um just for comparison sake the fast food restaurant that went out of business if that was operating it would generate twice as much traffic as this whole entire property so joh out of business it didn't generate that much why it went out of business yes but so okay the Dunkin Donuts next door generates more traffic in the peak hours than this whole entire piece of property so so I think um from a traffic perspective right um so you said Mr verice that A1 the loading docks can accommodate a WB 62 and then there's the first the northernmost units units so the lower tier of A2 could also accommodate WB 62 how about the southernmost that units that's going to be split up into 2 12,000 foot or 2 6,000 foot units possibly I didn't check it but not realistic I don't know that that would be realistic there okay and would you say if the two sites were split apart that would certainly make it more difficult for a WB 62 to get in there and access that southernmost unit I would think if they were split apart we'd have to redesign A2 to maybe move the loading docks to a different okay to the back um and then as far as Vehicles right so tractor trailers once they leave the site all the I know everything's going to Route 9 is the anticipation that most of those types of vehicles are going to frequent 33 195 you know where the joke handles are more suitable for turning movements for those types of vehicles yes yes now with it being a flex base are we anticipating more of a su 40 and passenger Fleet type Vehicles so smaller vehicles but more trips yes is there a possibility that those types of vehicles might utilize other especially with ways and stuff like that Fort Plains Road or west Farm road to you know especially if there's accidents or there's traffic at those interchanges from 195 to Route 9 the back cut through roads sure I mean the you know employees and and and customers of this uh Self Storage uh they're more likely right to use West Farms because you're local when you're using self storage and then yeah the smaller box trucks they could probably find their way um if they're more local deliveries and they're not trying to get the one 95 or Route 33 um that there there's a chance that they would use those roads sure so and the reason why I'm going down this line of question I think for the township the intersection of Fort Plains and West Farms Road has been like identified as being uh an issue uh and they're needing to be signalization improvements there uh you know I know the applicant is not proposing a primary access to Fort Plaines road but you know you can't control where people to the site you know I know they can say that oh we're going to restrict it and you know it's going to be in lease agreements and stuff like that if W is telling you to go some way and it's shaving two minutes off of your time you're going to use whatever wayss tells you or if you know the back roads you're going to use whatever that especially if you're not driving a tractor trailer you're driving an AJ Perry or Su 40 or something like that you're going to do whatever gets you quickest to a location so so Charlie we never got that stock that that that that traffic light no so well M Andy what happened Andy no comment okay yes but that's the point there's no traffic light back in that portion we've had other applicant that we discussed maybe getting something there Jen is it at the state level I no we never made it nope we had people uh agree to contribute towards the light there's a development that Mr P was involved with at the intersection of four Plains and Sunnyside that contributed to the light I just don't think we've gotten to the point where it's even been designed or proposed I don't know if the warrants are there I do know Charlie did tell me that there was a an intersection that needed a traffic light we did have a conversation about a brief conversation um I can tell you our client can't fund a traffic light with this project but can participate I'm certain that if there has been contributions there's a formula the transportation formula that we could review with charlyy but and I did go over it with my clients prior to the hearing and we feel that we have a very modest participation of traffic but we are willing to participate in a funding of that traffic signal on a Prat basis so and I don't think we're obviously you're not going to finish this application tonight but when the applicant does come back like knowing what that contribution is going to be and participation is going to be you know uh we weigh the positive and the negative on a use variance I think knowing that amount towards a positive criteria would be very helpful and then Charlie did did I hear you say that they were offering to uh donate the other 17 acres to Green Space is that that did you say that I don't know that I heard that well okay thank you Charlie board members questions for the traffic engineer go ahead you got to speak loud so you can be what's to prevent trucks or cars exiting from facility went to rout n South to prevent them from interfering with cars trying to get into the driveway for Home Depot we we drove that the other day when we went to the site and that that're they're very close together so it's well in Access of what the Department of Transportation permits I'm going to guess for there's a total guess 250 ft between the driveways um the Department of Transportation permits driveways to be 24 ft apart so and to give the board Clarity right you know we're you know there's discussion about splitting the two sites up so there's two separate driveways the type of vehicles that would frequent a self storage and the frequency of those trips is certainly going to be a lot less frequent in a lot smaller Vehicles than uh what would be for the flex based W6 b62 I don't think that type of vehicle would be coming out of the Self Storage driveway if that was just to service the Self Storage part of the site so that might obviously it falls under Dot's jurisdiction as far as access and and things like that but you know you might see box trucks and passenger vehicles for Self Storage coming out of that driveway um you wouldn't be having a WB 62 pulling out of there you know while while someone's flying down trying to come down West Farms Road to get into Home Depot or or sorry coming down Route 9 to get into Home Depot or or to to West Farms Road so you're saying that the the the space between where your driveway ends on the southern part right there and the the Home Depot driveway right there that's that meets the the department yeah it's well in Access yeah well in Access and I agree with Charlie one of the benefits that comes out of separating the two is you've taken the smaller use the smaller traffic generating use and that's the one that's closest to the to the Home Depot driveway thank you you're welcome yeah I have a question if I'm a truck driver driver with a tractor trailer I want to go to like one of the flex spaces I missed that first you know entrance at the northern entrance and I did you say on your testimony you cannot drive in with a tractor trailer on the southern entrance safely yeah I I think again another thing we solved even though I don't think it's going to happen um another thing we solved by separating two uses no one will be able to get between the two properties but that's not designed at least at this time for that largest tractor trailer it's for the one of the reasons we may I think we should divide them because that could be an issue with a car coming out of the self storage and a truck driver misses that turn on the Northern entrance he's he may think he can get into the southern entrance to get to the flex space and that's going to be an issue so realistically if he missed the first one I'm assuming that means he doesn't know his way here and he doesn't know the roads I don't see how you would ever know the second driveway came to the site you would never know the second driveway came into the property if you didn't already know the property but it's okay because I think we're going to solve it because I've heard it multiple times now and multiple reasons to try to maybe okay well then I'll ask you since you probably be a good person to ask how are we separating the two properties as far as the tra you know having them separate I mean we talking a fence or what no I mean we're going to have to put some kind of landscaped Island that you know with curb that you can't drive between the two so that area that you see between the infiltration Basin and the loading on the south side of A2 is going to have to be reworked okay in there yes I don't see you know I don't I can't design it on the Fly here but no no I understand I just wanted to just a point of fact when you are rethinking that because we do have that um fire emergency road and we divide the property up I don't know if they're going to be looking for another I wouldn't I would just connect the two with another fire lane okay as opposed to putting something to the public Street I think that would do the same okay I just was saying you know in in the process yes I was when that came up I that was going through my mind in the back as well he hit it is that what no I no what I was saying was I there should be no reason why anything should be going through that Fort Plains gate oh no okay that's why I want to make sure I just want to verify that's why I want to verify okay Charlie Jen board members we're good all right Mr P we got 15 minutes at least can we open this up to public we can let do Mr chair we would very much be interested in any of all comments that the board members are prepared to share with us before we motion to open Mr chair have a second second all favor e we're opening the public questions and comments we're the board is open to the five minute limits for questions and comments a five minute limit if You' like up um state your name and your address thank you yes I have to swear in yes do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth be God I do stay your name for the record and also your address please okay my name is Ann Joy Becker my address is one Maran Avenue and Howell I've been here for 25 years actually um I only have two questions first question is in reference to the water if you have a force story storage unit 150,000 Square ft how are you getting the right supply of water to that unit and how is it going to affect the businesses around that's my first question do I wait for that to get answered before I ask my second question what Mr what Mr zner indicated is that there's a a trunk Line Water the trunk line in the in the roadway that there is a water tower at the the corner of West Farms and Ford Plains and that we would um not we would not proceed with a site plan unless we have the flow test from New Jersey American Water confirming that the water supply is sufficient and that there's the potential that there could be a pump associated with the building itself that enhances the pressure of the water going up to the top of the building perfect okay that's thank you and the second thing is in reference to a flex space and not a flex Warehouse which has been said incorrectly a couple of times during the meeting and I was here a couple of weeks ago um after it is approved if it is approved what would make the flex space not become for instance a school because the separation that we have especially where you have 25,000 Square ft looks like a gymnasium you know a kitchen I mean it to me I've been in retail my whole life that looks like future school or that's what it looks like to me so what would prevent that from happening once you approve from The Zone and the planning um what would guarantee that that Flex space would not be used for that and more importantly for a specific set of people so in other words um to be very blunt I am a 64-year-old Jewish woman from the Bronx and I'm letting you know that there's Catholic schools and there's Jewish schools and there's Muslim schools so I would not be able to send my children to that school if I'm not part of that that culture yep okay so that's it so if this board grants an approval it's Howell Township you have a requirement every time this board grants an approval you require that the resolution be recorded as a declaration of restrictions against the property so it becomes a part of the property's county records and it's in perpetuity the only way it can be changed the only way it can be changed is another trip to the zoning board and someone has to present an application and earn an approval for that modification I'll put this on the record and I'll ask Nick to help me there's no way that any portion of this could be a school we have not designed it to circulate School Vehicles we have not designed it for parking for a school we're not asking for a school and that conjecture is just will entertain it but it's just okay off base okay okay that's it it's my only question yeah and Mr chair on prior applications where we've had Flex uses I know Mr Pape has you know agreed to a list of certain types of uses that would fit under the guys of flex so that way it could be recorded in a resolution to protect the board and the applicant should someone else own the property you know 20 30 years from now and I just want to clarify we um regulate based off of the use right so we're looking at schools independent of any faith or anything like that right it's parking requirements and traffic it's based off of office base it's based off of flex Bas it's not based off of any denomination or anything like that so I just want to point that out for the board's record okay thank you very much thank you man' Andy John legio 9 Livingston Drive Mr legio do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the H we got yes all right few questions Mr Pap and the board multiple uses I mean Mr Mr s I'm sorry no no no the applicant is the one that you're asking yes the professionals yes Mr P I'm actually disappointed that you brought this application forward because it's asking for a lot of variance you know differences which is I just think it it's ridiculous but it's multiple uses not one use that's number one all right you're asking for warehouse and flex space now you you guys could Define Flex space any way you guys want to Define it it's Warehouse use okay it's word salad it's another term that was made up so it softens the term of Warehouse okay warehouses and Howell go into S1 zones okay not HD1 zones so you guys are sitting here listening to an application that shouldn't even be in front of you okay and then the square footage you guys took 130,000 Square ft it's only 75,000 if they were to even allow it but you took 130,000 so you guys went over 75,000 but you split the building to make it to soften to soften it up okay I it's just it's just ridiculous all right variance more variances right Jen beam and the planning board for the last couple years have worked very hard with the master plan on what's going to happen and how moving forward right you've been part of that you've been to a bunch of those meetings okay doesn't that undermine what we just changed in the master plan this application okay it's spec master plan specifically wants to limit nonresidential development encroachment on residential areas okay that's zoned by ordinance not by variance you've been doing this for how many years Mr Pete and you bring this application forward you know for for us to listen it's ridiculous you make me come up here and have to explain it to the public and put it on public on public record okay come on you know better than that is not permitted use here and how about the water flow that's going to go north that's already destroying that one end of the town with flooding now you're telling me we're going to put in some Retention Ponds with storm management what's going to prevent all that water that's going to go North to up four Plaines where it's already a disaster up there how you going to guarantee all that and then let's go back to the flex bace you're going to guarantee us that no one's going to be part work outside I could take you guys to flex Bas uses in other towns where they have trailers pallets double wi trailers their equipment all parked in the parking lot Mr legio that's why we have title 39 that the applicant applies to the police department and the police department goes on the site and issues fines and so forth and that's you know what m m Mr s that's another whole thing right getting it built and then what's going to happen after it gets built then we then we're stuck with it we got put the controls in place yeah of course we put the controls in place are they going to be manageable or not manageable that's but what I'm saying is we come here with this application that's not even permitted use come on whatever thank you sir next we'll give you time man Andy ma'am do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you got state your name and uh address please Carol Reed 172 to Fort Plains Road how I have lived on this road all my life and I am very unhappy about this project because I have a farm a preserved Farm uh in Howell it's been preserved since 2007 one of my questions is why is uh this is a 32 Acre Site why is only 14 acres being developed out of it the remaining portion of the property is substantially impacted by environmental constraints there are some limited Uplands that are Pockets but for the most part the northern the north side of the utility easement that bisects the property is impacted by wetlands and Wetland buffers and Stream Car could you show that on the map please I don't understand show show me where it is somebody well GRE Mr up to that plan is just the the 14 acres right we have a sheet that we can ask John to show that's the full site the whole s there you go if you could identify that portion of the property that's proposed for development and that and the portion that is has the uh environmental constraints a very little Mark I could hardly see it okay so you can see that U there's a section wed out towards Route 9 and there's some Open Fields we talked about this a little bit to the left of that view the property even continues off the screen wait a minute where oh where is off the screen can you see Fort Plains Road along the bottom of the screen yeah that's the edge of our property where's the wetlands where do you say the wetlands are so there are devel velopment is sort of the right half of what you're seeing on that property Mr Pon talked about how we were developing 14 acre portion as you go to the left of that there a number of streams and wetlands uh in along Port Plains Road approximately what you see outside the woods there that's Upland where is tus where is tus in relation to this where is tus the development it's everything below us um I don't know uh if you're aware of there's an underground stream on this property the bottomless pit you can't build on it is that where you're where you can't build on or uh are you aware of that there a uh I don't know of a bottomless pit I know that there it's near the highway uh people can get water there it just there's no Bottom I want do you have some kind of a map that shows where that is are you not interested with the state of New Jersey the Department of Environmental Protection to map out all the restricted areas the streams the wetlands and the areas that need to be preserved from ecolog do you have a map that you could show me right now where that is or on the screen I don't think we have a wetland map we don't have a wetland that's very important we have Wetland approvals so I if I could just interject they have committed to not developing that rear portion of the site which is where the wetlands are so they're not touching the wetlands they are on the Upland area which is closer to Route n which is why like the first question you ask is why aren't they developing the whole site the answer is they can't because it's environmentally sensitive so that's why I need a map I have to see they're showing you the map I have objected to this site for this was a a coite back in the 80s and they turned it down because of the wetlands I understand that's why I want to see the map so they're showing you a map I know you're not happy with the map that they're showing you but they are showing you it's not a wetland map that's not a wetland map they're not obligated to show you a wetland map this is a use variance hold on that's confusing this is a use variance bifurcated use Varian application when they come back if the board approves the use variant they're going to come back for site plan in the site plans they they will have all that information but right now it's will you allow this type of use on this property right and they did have an exhibit I know that we're looking for it that shows the developable portion of the site and the not there it is right there bingo so the area that's in yellow is what they're developing and the area that's in green they are not developing that's the map so you which which is that North or South where uh you're not developing North the green the green so it's it's half the site that exactly L right a little more than half okay all right I still my objection this was uh originally uh my property and this site were originally Co sites I don't know if you know that in the 1980s and uh the what's on the property now is lowincome housing now uh there all the people that live there are um disabled right and and they were given notice I know you don't care about this but they were giving they were giving notice to get out by October 1st there are people there that are not able to walk they have breathing problems I live across the street from them they have old cars they uh they are on the bottom of our economic ladder but they need housing they cannot get out of there in 30 days they could not get out of there in 60 days they couldn't Mr chair I have to interject I I know I'm this is not this is not part of this application no no I know it's part of life ladies and gentlemen it's part of life these people are going to be out on the street Miss Reed I hope that you miss Reed that consideration we heard this the last time they were before us and this code enforcement officer John indicated yes indicated to us that it's a court order well you know Lind by way I don't mean to interrupt whether they go forward with this project or not whether this board approves it or not that is an independent uh well part of the uh of what's going on on that property the Bungalows are do not meet State housing code they don't meet uh State lead code they don't meet uh how Township Housing code So based on the vi those violations alone nothing to do with the application that's before you before this board or anything else that's going on that's a separate issue okay but I just want you to be aware that Linda Lane Apartments 10 years ago was in the same disrepair as this place is and the code enforcement you were probably not there worked with them one building at a time to fix it up lindel Lane Apartments is on Fort Plaines Road near the bowling alley and it is still there that is an option of the owner I gave I gave the option they can they can they can fix it or they can abandon the use they decide to abandon use I can't force them one way or another okay but this has been a code enforcement action through the Municipal Court it it has nothing to do with this board if this application was not coming forward to the board that situation is still moving from this project it's a a disaster it was a disaster two years ago you know and the point is that uh I'm wondering what the township you're not the council but are they really interested in the where these people are going to live they cannot go to a a trailer park because they can't walk Mr chairman do they care about you know I I I don't me I don't mean this board really can't answer this is not this is not the I'm bringing it up for reason I'll probably go to the Town Council me because this is like a disaster this is people that are are low income that cannot go into a trailer park there is no place for them to go but if they're not 65 or you know this application I know that but you have to be aware that this is a project that's going to D directly affect 20 families that are not we said that multiple times the project has no bearing on that whatsoever at all not not mean not legally but physically it is not physically either because what they're developing is nowhere near if this I feel sorry for these people they have they have very low income some of them are on senior citizens um of tus and uh they have no place to go they're living at the edge we have people that live in tents on our road too you know Miss Reed if you can take that to the council then that's probably okay but this board has no control over it I know but this is the first step that I'm going to make okay thank you best step thank you so Mr chair if I could just make a point of clarity so the exhibit that's shown on the screen now with the green area so on the applicant's use variance plan sheet three they show uh detail of the wetlands with the buffer and everything like that and should this board you know should the board were favorably on the application and gets advaned a site plan you know they would be required to get all outside outside agency approvals D for flood Hazard area wetlands and all and all the like as part of any uh approval so I just want to put that on the record okay great thank you any anyone else 106 good evening these were the testimony give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the choose to help you got yes I do state your name for the record and spell your last please your address uh my name is Joe sker SK i l l n d e r uh I'm the owner of uh cars holding which is the property owner of uh 420 uh us night South the Marite building uh again just uh kind of want to come up here State uh for the record uh you I appreciate uh you know the applicants um ability of getting us the information of uh the uh 8 in uh SE line that's gravity fed with 3° slope uh one of the things we just want to you know mention to the board here is that we've done our due diligence here uh we're a landlock property uh for water and sewer we contacted uh Mr Tony Rodriguez with uh uh New Jersey American Water um and he said that uh you know unfortunately our systems uh which are septic and well uh would uh you know would not be able to uh connect if other developments occur within this area so uh part of the reason of me being up here just want to ask the applicant uh you know again the willingness to commit with uh work with property owners to connect uh to uh current uh water sewer systems uh in the area any water systems that we install become Public Water Systems so we don't control access to them and I've indicated that we um located the ASU drawings for the sanitary sewer line that traverses our property and that there's capacity in that line you'd have to design your system to get to it but that that line is there again my our concerns here are dealing with the uh the uh storm water runoff especially from the Basin going into the uh Creek uh and would that not uh increase potential flows into uh you know properties to the north of it we just switched from util from water and sewer to storm waterer management the stormwater management is something that we've spent considerable time with your engineer with the Township's engineer to make certain that he was comfortable that ours is a realistic plan the full s plan design would occur the the full drainage design would occur at site plan but I we point out that the northern portion of our property approximately 18 plus Acres which is environmentally constrained wetlands and and flood Hazard areas and streams would be the ultimate receiver of our storm water and we'd have to control its its rate of discharge so we have we we don't have the ability or the right to create a burden of on our neighboring properties uh but would you also agree with uh the uh Township's professionals that uh helping uh you know with the storm waterer uh uh Mitigation Of neighboring proper properties would help to the positive and uh negative criterias we don't deal with the storm water from our neighboring properties we deal with the storm water on our property we the utility lines that are installed we've indicated have the capacity water we don't know water you make your own arrangements with New Jersey American water but the existing sanitary sewer line that's there we we have the asilt drawings that shows there's capacity for additional flows you you can get design into it you can get into it so uh again but uh would you not agree with the board's uh professionals comment uh from last meeting that um any help to the sanitary or to the storm water management would help to the positive and negative criterias that the final testimony with regard to positive negative criteria will come from the planner I don't recall there being any comments at all about the the applicant having an obligation to manage storm waterer on adjacent properties talking about the sewer yeah so sanitary sewer it was in relation to the Sewer so the main that runs from Force Plains Road through into easement to the KFC in that vicinity right the questions were what's the capacity of that meain and does it allow for future Connection by others and would they increase the size of that mean you know if needed to allow others to connect into it so I don't think there was any you know um uh suggestion that they would run you know thousands of feet of sewer M you know through other people's properties to service another site it was just the sewer M that runs through their site to the properties on Route 9 does it have adequate capacity to service the other properties that are on Route n and the answer was yes right I would think as a condition of any board approval we would like to see those calculations and that information for the board's record to confirm it but we never we did not suggest in any way shape or form that they manage the regional drainage no okay again I apologize for the that mischaracterization again my concerns is being on a septic system here again any increase of any storm water runoff could negatively impact our property into the septic tanks that we have so uh we just want to you know clarify that for the you know and Charlie they're complying with the latest in greatest 100e storm water correct and and like we said so this is a bifurcated application so in the time since they filed their application and should the board act favorably and they come back for site plan they're going to be under the town have just passed the amended stormm water control ordance to comply with the Inland fraud rules there's increased like rainfall intensities with that design so at time of site plan they're going to have to demonstrate compliance with that and when applicants are required when they have any infiltration component they're required to do groundwater mounting analysis so they'll they'll have to you know as part of if this gets Advanced a site plan demonstrate that there's no groundwater mounting impacts from their on-site storw Water Management infrastructure as far as what gets discharged from their site there's rate reductions that are stipulated that they're required to meet for attenuation for control they've at this point have demonstrated that they comply with the rules once if it gets a site plan they'll have to demonstrate that they comply with the new rules with the increased rainfall intensities so uh there's multiple shots at the Apple or make sure that the applicant is compliant with those regulations thank you thank you sir okay let's getting to the we hours here um to close the public second all the Eileen we're close to public the board is now close to the public Mr P Mr chair we're going to uh carry you all right what's the next date the next date and I'd ask Mr chair the next date that you're here would be appreciated too what do we got I um I have for are you here on October 28th I didn't hear the date I'm so sorry October 28th I think you are Mr chair I think that's a good one I have one application already scheduled for October 28th or I have the November 25th 25th I think we just loaded up with Gateway yeah so then I have December y that October date it works for everyone on our team all right then October 28th and then the expiration Mr P we'll move the expiration date out to the end of November on the record and I'll follow with correspondence okay so case number VA 20-18 Fort Plains Partners LLC this application is being carried to 28 October with an expiration date moving to November 30th 2024 Mr chair members of the board thank you all and good night good night thank you Mr can we have a motion to adjourn all in favor all right we're adjourn good night now let's I fall as