[Music] evening Eileen can you please open up the meeting zoning Board of adjustment Monday March 25th 2024 700 p.m. regular meeting I hereby declare this meeting of the Howell Township zoning board to be open adequate notice having been given pursuant to the New Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was mailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on December 11th 20123 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the Howell Township Municipal Building 4567 Route 9 Howell Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your SA safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on how Township TV 77 this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues of what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and the decorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times thank you thank you Eileen can we have a roll call please Mr Orosco is inbound I just let you know okay thank you Mr Bello here Mr caner here Mr Hughes here Mr Mertens here Mr Rosco Mr Stanton is absent Mr Ryan present m scotson here and chairman seya here you have a quorum thank you will everyone please join me Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the repic for stands Nation indivisible andice thank you Andy can we please have a swearing in of the professionals Focus do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you I do state your name for record pleas Charles K Jennifer beam sh speiro your professionals are SW your professionals are sworn Mr thank you sir okay approval of minutes regular meeting March 11 2024 eligible voters burillo Hughes Mertens Ryan scotson and seya do we have a motion I'll make a motion second burillo I roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Martin yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes and chairman SE yes minutes approved thank you ien item six any vouchers no vouchers tonight great item seven correspondence any correspondence I have one thing for correspondence case number ba 2211 Aaron P peer and Y Huda Brown will be carried to May 13 2024 with notice an extension has been given to the board through the end of May Mr P that's fine till the end of May okay so anyone that's here for application number case number ba 22-11 peer braa this application is being cast carried till May 13 2024 with notice extension the end of May correct thank you Mr chair do you know how long it's going to take Jose to get here because if he's not here when we start he can't vote we got it yeah it's okay we're not going to count on it right got you okay okay applications before the board case number ba923 SP Yeshiva emch hatara Inc this is a use variance preliminary and final major site plan and major subdivision application of Yeshiva emor Inc AS application seeking use variants preliminary and final major site plan and major sub division approval to remove all existing structures from Lots 22 23.0 and construct a two-story 23,2 53q ft School building with basement located predominantly on lot 22 but also partially on Lots 23 and 23.1 the existing one-story educational facility located on Lot 23 is to remain and a vertical addition is proposed over the proposed vertical additions proposed over the proposed gymnasium on premises known as block 69 lot 15 22 23 2301 395 Kent Road expiration date 27 April 2024 Mr Pay yes Mr chairman members of the board board's professionals and public good evening Kenneth Pape of the firm hurn Pape on behalf of your applicant am I being picked up is this working you're get you're being picked up sir very thank you this is an application for use variance relief site plan approval and a subdivision we were before the board in 2020 and the board memorialized relief to this same applicant for most of the same property in 2021 that relief uh the request that we present to you this evening is similar but not identical to the relief that was requested at that time our clients have been successful in securing from their neighbors a the a contract to purchase additional lands so additional lands are being presented to the board your clients are requesting modification of the buildings on the property the main new building has been reduced in size the main new building has been reduced in purpose and the existing building is being repurposed we're requesting that the existing building be remain and that it be uh primary athletic facilities for the boys who are the students at the aiva that's an attorney's executive overview of the application the presentation will be made by Lewis zugner who's a the professional engineer who designed the plan he was the person who presented it to you the last time Scott Kennel is here he is the traffic expert and he too was with us the last time Melissa rub is a registered architect and she is responsible for the redesign of the buildings I also have the privilege of being here with Rabbi Weinberger and Rabbi Mermelstein both of whom are associated with the facility the last time we zoomed and we didn't get to see each other with the rabbis are sitting in the front row and with us this evening the last witness that we intend to call is as Christine cfone Christine is our professional planner and I know that we have a lot to cover and I don't know how far we'll get I'm ambitiously hoping we get to the conclusion but with uh before we begin the substantive presentation if we could just have your attorney or secretary confirm receipt and adequacy of our notices for the board's jurisdiction the board is jur jurisdiction Mr chairman and Mr P thank you thank you so Mr P yes um well we last heard this application it's the Solomon sheor is the old building is that correct it is and that's where we gave you preliminary approval uh to just to use variance Mr chair just to use we stopped there and you worked with the professionals we worked with the professionals we we before the hearing we wor with the professionals on the board a use variance was granted we did not come forward with a site plan our clients went to the neighbors to see if additional land was available we're successful in acquiring same and came and we're coming in with a revised application a significant change in the application is there was a goal to increase the student population there was a goal to have the school grow considerably and all of the presentation included a building approximately a two it was a two-story building 56,000 above grade and 9,000 below grade and there were doubling all the classrooms where every classroom where we had one classroom we were going to two there are no new classrooms that are being proposed there are amenities that are worked into the building to make the school um to make the education more complete but there is no new classrooms and you'll hear from the applicant the applicant professionals the sealing on the number of students that will be educated at the school and the previous testimony the students they were walking across the the bridge to to the housing on the other side of the bridge correct yes and and there was really no relief needed for additional parking or anything and we talked about visitation and once or twice a uh a year where they would be two three times a year so that's all still in play correct yes Mr chair I if perhaps I could take a few moments to just reestablish some of those factors that this board required of the applicant they were memorialized in a detailed resolution and I can also report on some changes that have happened when we were before you in 2021 the dormatory was under construction the dormitor is built and those the graduates students Only The Graduate students live in that dormatory and when we were before you there was a sidewalk That was supposed to be built that connected that to the school it's installed and you may recall I actually thought it was a humorous comment Who's going to shuffle the snow on the sidewalk and we said the boys will and the boys do the sidewalk is kept clear all the time so the schools the school said we're building a dormatory it's there it's it's it's beautiful the school said we'll put in the sidewalk was a combination of Lakewood County and our clients the sidewalk is in and it is being maintained by the boys great so for the benefit of the new members that are on the board perhaps maybe if you can give us that overview we'd appreciate that sir sure and um with permission I have I put together notes that I'm going to be using this evening but I could put a lot of these notes on the record early on I think some of the statements that there's similar to statements that were made when we were before you the last time but th this is a school that educates high school boys and it also has postgraduate students students the the the high school boys are there's 28 students in a class and that's a freshman class sophomore class junior class senior so there's 28 Boys in each of those four years and you'll hear that that's the number that we have had for 10 years there was this ambition we wanted to grow it's withdrawn there's no interest in growing no new classrooms there's also the graduate students The Graduate students number approximately 70 sometimes it goes to 80 70 to 80 graduate students and these are the students who live in the in the dormatory in across the bridge the number of Staff has been consistent for many years before we go to staff can you just give us the total number of students instead of expecting the board to do like a math problem like how many students are you you got approval for what 380 students initially I can answer that question there's 28 Time 4 and 28 Time 4 is 112 and the number of students in The Graduate School is approximately 70 so we would anticipate that the number of students will be approximately between 170 and 185 students that's the number that we would anticipate and we're prepared to commit to this board that we will control the number of students and if if we need to come up with a mechanism we'll work with the board but there is a commitment on the record it'll be if this is approved it'll be in a resolution and we know that resolution will be recorded and will follow the property there are 25 members of the staff and unlike a secular High School the staff is not in place all day the staff comes to teach different classes during the day typically there are 10 staff members present at any time there's also the administration there's a half a dozen people that make up the administration the yiva intends to continue to educate young men in a high school and postgraduate but has no ambition to grow their goal is to create a high valued education they enjoy that reputation in their their community and it's the reputation that they want to enhance they're not looking to grow we also had gone through the hours of that the students were there and just to make put us all in our place these students come to school at 7:45 in the morning and they go home between 9 and 11:00 at night that will continue we also indicated that although meals were served there's no kitchen there's no cooking there's there's meals are served the foods came from a food service all the cooking was off the proper prop and that will continue There we indicated that the school day was filled with recreational breaks that will continue we're asking for to have a recreation building on campus there'll be more on that com a little bit later I already shared with you the success of the dormatory being completed and then there are these three events that take place during the year there's the parent teachers conferences Mr chairman you remembered that accurately there's 12 grade graduation and once a year there is an award ceremony in recent years the award ceremony has been moved to the Eagles Ridge Golf Course um but it had been here and it could return those were the three events and you may recall that the Yeshiva has a working relationship memorialized in a writing that with a school across the street the school across the street allows the use of their parking lot for overflow and that's remains in place so kind of a I mean I I I would just ask the question you got approval for 380 students now you're coming back with a Max of 185 but you're not reducing the size of the building at all yes we are building size has been reduced I mean not significantly close to 30% I I don't know about that but I'm just saying like it just seems to me like you're using the enrollment to advance other things and I'll I guess defer to Charlie but like it has been suggested to me that the cl our clients were looking to avoid the septic system regulations exactly and that's not the case at all if it were the case I would not be authorized to give you the tools to manage the student population how what tools are you giving us Ken honestly like do you think someone's going to stand out in front of the school with a clicker and like click how many kids come in the town H the town is not going to be put in a position to enforce your enrollment so I mean John are you going to stand out there with a clicker like so I wouldn't do it with a clicker and I wouldn't ask this but I would I'm saying it just impose a responsibility on the applicant to provide proof of their student enrollment and I'd like the opportunity to make the presentation absolutely 100% but I just want to put you on notice that there's skepticism on the side of of us in terms of whether or not you're really cutting the enrollment as far as you are to cuz it looks to me like the building is not sub substantially reduced and therefore how does the township move forward to ensure that there's not going to be 380 students there plus plus staff plus this going into a septic system that is sized for a a way lower enrollment and so it's incumbent upon you to provide this board with the information that they need in order to ensure that there isn't going to be required to have a Township person there clicking the number of students going in because it's just not going to happen haven't done any testimony I was merely outlining the presentation to the board Mr P the testimony will follow okay thank you John so Mr Pape yes Mr so it appears that you yes we um we talked about 300 380 plus students um we were always concerned about the septic system correct and that how it sloped back behind the Solomon Shor building and so forth right um are we going to be connecting to primary line are we going to bring the line in or are we going to redo the septic system how that that that's something that you know would probably be you know if we can put that up front you know what's the plan I was about to ask the same thing yeah it's this property is on septic there's no sewer line that's available it's not reachable by sewer um so it will be on septic and it's incumbent on this applicant and their Engineers to design a septic system and we have a comfort level that we can but to design a septic system on site to service the population that we're presenting to you if we can't we can't move forward got it so that will replace the existing one that's there yep and then with the same number of students that are there now and the same number of staff that are there now okay Mr P thank you U um Charlie did you have anything you want to add real quick no so if the board recalls that was you know one of the things that need to be worked out at time of site plan I think the there was a representation that the existing septic was currently like maybe at capacity for the enrollment that they had so they were going to have to take that out put in a new septic system with the number of students they were proposing as part of the use variance application there was testimony put on the record that it would be um an enhanced septic system so uh typically anything less than 2,000 gallons a day is an individual uh septic system that gets approved at the County Board of Health level anything above that you have to go to DP in the state level there's an egyptus permit there's additional pre-treatment and dosing um you know it's more waste that's going to an underground system that needs to be handled and and there's additional uh regulatory requirements that need to be met so that's kind of we were told at the time of the use variant that that would all be worked out and presented to us at the time of site plan and now we're kind of here at time of site plan with largely a very similar sight layout and the footprint of the building 2D looks largely the same as what was presented and the only changes were going back to halfing the number of students so that's I think from an engineering perspective is our concern is we don't want to see a system having issues you know you know 6 months 2 years 5 years 10 years from now because it doesn't serve anyone so thank you Charlie Mr chairman yes Mr C can I ask a question go ahead sir um Mr P as you go through your review I'm I'm curious I'm I'm big on time we spent a considerable amount of time to hear this case or to hear this request last time and we graciously granted what you had asked us for and now you're asking us to do it again so I want want to know specifically what is different about this plan than the one that we spent so much time to review last time as you go through your your review we'll do so okay so septic system well I think what we would so Mr pabe yes sir so you say you're reducing the building by 30% does that mean we're reducing the number of Laboratories and number of you know uh drains and so forth or we're just adding just gynasium with no no no restrooms no showers um I I I'm just kind of wondering where's the balance that Mr conliff is talking about with regards to the work and how many gallons are we going to be generating you know per day and so forth but that that should all come out and comfortably we should be able to satisfy the engineer correct that's the goal okay always the goal and I think some of the testimony about the interior of the building will come from Melissa rup the architect some of it will come from from Lewis zner the design engineer um lot to cover yes and I understand I I'll be the first one to say it and you know that how I feel I know that you're all volunteers I know that time is valuable and you give it to the community and and graciously is an understatement you give it to you give it to it freely and graciously we appreciate our clients were able to secure additional lands our client executive um board made decisions to approach this project to create a high-end facility and not a high population facility that's the main change got it Mr P as far as professionals uh Andy can we just swear them all in at one time we can that's roll you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you I do please state your name spell it your last time with Mr z uh leis zner Zu e g n r professional engineer with Mid-Atlantic engineering Scott Kennel K NE L with McDonna and Ray Associates traffic expert Lissa R liced architect with BF design and Associate Christine professional planner with Consulting Group your uh Witnesses are sworn Mr P okay and then Mr Pape as one we start off with one they'll put the credentials on the record please surely Mr LS zner is a professional engineer he's responsible for the plans that are before you I'll ask if he'll take a few moments to share with you his education and professional background good evening leis zner I'm a professional engineer licensed in the state of New Jersey as well as several other states I'm the founding principal of the firm Mid-Atlantic engineering a graduate of Virginia Tech been practicing for well over 20 years testified for numerous zoning and planning boards across the state of New Jersey including before this board we'll accept your credentials Mr Z I think we'll approach this we'll we'll move with as much alacrity as we can but we'll approach it methodically I think it would be important if we could introduce the property through an aerial photograph and then if we could narrow down to it and then we'll introduce the use Baran in sight plan so if you could take us through that sure I W spend too much time on it so board up shes relatively familiar with where we're located uh this is the first exhibit I believe there's another one a little bit more zoomed out overall aerial exhibit today's date I can see I get closer great so I don't know if this needs to have a mark uh I I think it's been pre-marked as A35 okay at least that one up on the this is the same correct on the board so this is just as a general orientation you can see sort of the green strip running left to right across the aerial image that's the North Branch of the matito con a little bit hard to see because this is zoomed out uh you can see both Ford and Kent roads about the middle of the plan and then in a white line you can see the overall outline uh of the parcel for the aiva off to the right up and down on this plan might be off your screen there is route nine just sort of a general view of where we're talking about Lots 22 23 23.0 1 block 69 correct and some portion of lot 15 we all in the a-2 agricultural rural estate Zone District that's correct we could go to the your next exhibit take us a little closer to the property Mr zna what's outlined right now is that does that include the additional property that you acquired it does and I'll describe that okay so if we uh could go to the next aerial image exhibit correct 36 now I believe here we're in a little bit of a different orientation but this is zooming in from where we were previously so you can see up and down along the right hand side of this exhibit is the again the North Branch of the matito conk you can see the County's new bridge pretty clearly uh which uh is right along uh would be the southwest corner of our property our parcel Kent Road is running left to right in this View and Ken that's 834 for the record thank you this white line is encompassing the total parcel and so we had two if you recall residential lots along Kent Road uh in the existing condition those are homes to be removed the existing school you can see at the top of that picture you can see its parking area and building and then you can see a dash line across the top the dash line is the current or existing property line uh and then what we've acquired uh from an adjoining property give us more of a buffer space behind that existing building that's the lands that have been acquired from lot 15 uh it's about 20 ft in depth it's about 9,000 total square feet uh so overall in terms of the application if you take the merger of lot the additional land uh we do give right of way to Kent Road in this application what was in the prior presentation 7.66 Acres would now be 7.83 Acres Mr zner is saying acquired property there's an agreement to acquire it the adjustment of that lot line between the two properties requires this board's approval so it has not transferred because it cannot transfer there's an agreement for that piece to be sold to to uh our clients I think an executive summary overview of the plan and an introduction of the plan should follow that' be great and I'm going to switch to our colored rendering exhibit this is simply labeled site rendering again uh has today's date okay this is a33 yeah this is uh as typical of a colored rendering a bit of an amalgam or assemblage of plans which we submitted uh showing sort of in a little bit of visual color the application in including a number of different pieces that were on different plan sheets again as orientation this is the same as the aial we were just looking at with Kent Road along the bottom of this plan again I think we already mentioned we are in the AR Zone ar2 uh and as was discussed a little bit earlier the sort of central core of this plan or this campus does remain very similar but to run through a couple of uh items you would see on this plan maybe some of the quick changes the L-shaped building which is to the bottom of this plan this is what has been discussed as the new two-story building uh we'll talk a little bit about how this building has changed the top uh along the back property line and where we have uh tried to add property that's the existing building and the plan is to make modifications to that building uh the additional land is obviously creating more of a buffer so beyond the 50 ft behind that building where we were less than that previously the parking Remains the Same in numbers uh there's a slight shift to where parking spaces sit but essentially that same entryway and loop remains similar to what you'd seen before with a a main entryway into the new building out of that parking lot you can see that within the middle of the property there are some adjustments to where we did the trash enclosure so it helps now in terms of pedestrian circulation that was moved back but still is in a appropriate location as you come in and along that circular Drive uh we did maintain a significant loading area or drop off area I'll talk about that a little bit more but that was on the prior plans is actually a little bit more significant in this plan in terms of length um sort sort of an overview let's go through each of the elements of a site plan let's go through them methodically um let's start with grading and what what grading or regrading is required to achieve the plan that you're presenting to the board so it's a relatively uh flat property in terms of grade change in its existing condition and the way it's proposed for raing is not dissimilar to what was shown to you before of course because many ways the plan is similar I think what's uh most critical to know obviously we have wetlands and the North Branch of the Matia conch it's to the right on this plan to the South so in general the Topography is running towards the the river there and we maintain that in the grading of this site uh we do bring in a little bit of soil as fill material that helps thus create the proper drainage uh and I think we discussed this at the the prior uh hearings before this board the main new building is elevated by a couple of feet from the existing grade and this is important in terms of how we get the site to uh be graded properly but again it's a relatively flat site there's not significant grading and if we could describe the storm water management system that would be incorporated into the plan And We Begin by saying there is no stormwater management system that was approved with the Solomon shre school and there is no stormwater management system on the site correct so what do you propose so um since the time we were here previously rules for storm water management and design have changed in a number of ways uh but our approach is very similar so we're achieving uh retention of water and water quality through three uh surface infiltration basins we're not storing storm water underground at this site there are three basins It ultimately all is discharged to the North Branch of Mattoon we had spent quite a significant time with Mr Kliff we're not finished I'm very confident we can get there in the end and satisfy all of his concerns and just to add clar to the board so when they came in at the time of use variant it was prior to the rule amendments in like March of I think 2021 when they became effective they knew that that was in the pipeline at that time it's just the rules hadn't been like fully perfected so um as part of the use variants as far as like quantity control and like groundw recharge they demonstrated compliance with the rules in effect at at the time of the use variants it's just there's a couple added layers that have been you know codified with the new St War rules we asked them to clarify that there's a couple you know details on the plans in the report that don't match as far as like inverts and bottom elevations um you know if if it was off enough where we thought it was going to impact the s l we wouldn't have recommended they be here before you um you know I think from a quantity perspective what they shown is you know in line with what we found acceptable at the time of that use fance they just they're going to have to perfect it as part of any approval as resolution compliance so yes and we've done significant amount of soil work we understand the soils here that that was done previously so that that's part of the process let's do circulation I think a very important element of circulation is our entrance driveway and the information feedback that we received first from Chief Lewis when he was the fire chief and now from your new fire chief we met with we met with your old fire chief twice and your new fire twice so if you could do the circulation starting with the driveway connection at Kent um pointing out the elements that were driven by by Chief prognos Direction certainly and maybe touch also a little bit on our parking and loading uh if we could go back to uh this um don't know our numbers but the site rendering 33 thank you so our urance from Kent Road into the site uh that has not changed and that doesn't change in terms of location uh from its existing site but we bring in a Boulevard Road and it's a full 18 ft to either side of that Boulevard Island separated by a 4ft island uh this is important in terms of maintaining the idea of since we have one entrance into this school really either side of that Boulevard Island can function as an entrance in case of an emergency 33 as you come as you come into the site and we have you know referred to as a circle or circular motion there all of our aisles within are 30 ft wide and we maintain two-way circulation this is always in my mind important while the natural flow would seem to go counterclockwise here uh I always believe that circulation with two-way flow is a better solution and here we have plenty of width to do that uh so you come around that circular loop I mentioned this briefly before you can see would be the far left hand side of the parking lot there is a drop off Zone there or loading zone it's striped it's not for parking it's for all of the types of uses that you would have as drop off or delivery so uh in a conservative sense it's dimensioned as A9 ft along the sidewalk it's actually much larger than this if you took the full length that striped there uh from parking down to the entry of the building it's about 150 ft so we have more than sufficient space to bring in buses and unload multiple buses without even the idea of having them uh you know backed up out of that loading zone at different times of the day that could also be used for other types of delivery into the building um the uh parking spaces that we have on site all 9t X 18t spaces there are 39 proposed parking spaces this is the same number as what we had presented before in terms of actual spaces there's also 29 overflow spaces so if you look towards the top of the plan or the existing building you can see parking spaces on either side of the top aisle which are shaded those would be um uh spaces constructed of grass rein forced grass that could be used in the case of an event or U you know an overflow need for additional parking and that's the same design and same location as the last time we presented to the board the parking is almost identical there are a couple of spaces that have moved from what call it the left half of the circle to the bottom half just as the building has changed but the numbers are the same and the intent is the same I want to go back to the entrance driveway for a moment you you indicated it's the same driveway as previously presented it's not the driveway that's there now it's not the driveway that's there now although it's in a similar location if you were driving along Kent Road where you see the driveway now is where the new driveway will essentially be but it's a reconstructed different Boulevard entrance the two 18t wide lanes and the 4ot boulevard are offered to this board for their consideration that's not there now that is not there now that's Chief proc now Chief Lewis and chief par now driven correct and then one last thing I would mention in terms of circulation well it's not internal uh the application does include curving uh and shoulder work along our Frontage so it would be slightly wider and there would be curve along our Frontage of our property the 30 foot driveway that's on the campus the two-way 30ft driveway again if you could confirm that that driveway is consistent with the fire department requirements correct uh so obviously working with your fire chief but the 30 foot aisle width uh and the turning radiuses the uh motions through that Loop more than easily accommodate larger Vehicles they accommodate the fire trucks any Trash Vehicles school buses anything that we would bring into the site s circulation uh is well accommodated with the way this is designed lighting let's discuss lighting I'll remind the uh board that there was considerable discussion on lighting and there was a request that we have a 3,000 Kelvin that's a pretty soft type of light and uh We Begin by saying the commitment that we made the last time remains a commitment that's made to this board especially on the back of the building where the residents back up to it correct there's no Lighting on the back of the building other than the lighting that's required for security lights at doors that's it that's it okay we have a question for you I'm ready go ahead all right so I'm looking at this plan where's the septic going so uh the existing septic uh field uh is to what would be the right or south of the existing building that is being removed as part of this application and the clear area you can see to the left of the existing building that is where we would have space to construct a new septic system that septic system though is within our 50 foot buffer is it not the septic system is not within the 50 Foot buffer 50 feet from the property line per the plans it looks like it goes into the buffer because you do realize that no grading no nothing can go into that buffer so if you have the septic field touching the 50 fet you're telling me nothing's going to there's no disturbance happening in that 50 ft the application is to keep the septic system out of the 50ft buffer and we can accomplish that uh there was an element and this was in the prior application behind the new building where we were looking to grade open space and then reant in the buffer so we were trying to you cannot grade for a septic system in the buffer you can grade to build your burm and to plant that is it if the storm water management or the septic field or any part of your development modifies the buffer in any way that's a variance we can we can accomplish the space there's space for the septic field and we can build it staying out of the 50ft bar so and ie go ahead I just want to add some clarity to that so when you look at the applicant's plan there it shows a um expanding the existing septic disposal field to 98 by 85 ft the it's just a dash line and a box on a plan there's no details that we have for like you know what the disposal field is what the the size of the tank is or anything like that the box that's showing on the plan looks like it complies um with uh the 50ft setback requirement but there's no grading information that's provided as the board knows we've had you know sometimes you get into soil test pits if there's bad soils or there's high water table then you could have a mounting system there could be grading that's required with that so I think you know that's why it's probably in both Jen and my letters is there's not really much detail on the improvements in that area other than it's just shown as a box um so you know that's that's that's give just more clarity that's that's why we cited it and Charlie is that box designed for the 185 students or is it is it designed for the 380 I don't know that's I think as part of the use variants we asked for like a fully like engineered septic design to be presented to the board for our consideration and you know typically you know on single family residential and things like that those are left to a condition of the approval but I think as part of the use variants there was a commitment from the applicant that that would be provided to us for the board's review and I don't know that we got that Mr P the CTIC system design has not been completed I've made a note as I will during the evening of items that are brought to our attention either by your staff or by the board and at some point before we conclude I'll respond to them Mr chair okay may we return to our presentation yes please go ahead sir so lighting I have pointed out that when we were here the last time there was we have LED lighting we continue to have LED lighting we do have LED lighting and like you said it is at the 3000 Kelvin lower temperature could you take a moment to just describe what 3,000 Kelvin lighting is I mean we're becoming more and more familiar with it but let the record reflect what that is so with Ellie lights while there's not actually a temperature in the sense uh there's a calculation showing temperature related to color so if you were to have a LED light at say 5,000 Kelvin it's a very harsh bright white light beyond that it's even blue as you get to a lower temperature like 3,000 Kelvin which is essentially the lowest standard commercial bulb you can get it is U much more like existing sight lighting a little bit uh closer to a yellow color which yellow doesn't sound nice but in practice it actually is it's just a softer color and I'm sure many people have seen difference even in their own homes where you get a LED bulb that's you know not a soft color but bright white it's it's um Stark if you could just describe the lighting plan that you have designed for the board's consideration so the site itself lends itself toward the goals of sort of C capturing maintaining our light footprint within the site because we have a site where our parking our outdoor facilities are within the middle of the site and surrounded by our buildings uh we are lighting the site with poles they're all uh they're 19 of them they're 18 foot tall poles all of the light fixtures are the down directed lights so they don't throw you know light uh pollution out in terms of seeing a bulb that they down directed um and there's no spillage off of our site I mindful that when we were before the board the last time there were there was at least one neighbor I think maybe even two had expressed concern with light leaving the the property now some of the light was concerned with light leaving the building and we'll discuss that when Miss rub is here but light leaving the light fixtures if you could give the board assurances of the steps that are taken to make certain that no light leaving your fixtures makes it onto our neighbor's property right so of course we go through a design of seeing foot candles on the ground U and it's essentially driven by the type of fixture uh with the LED lights we have far more control than we did in the past in terms of uh using uh little cell modules in the LED fixtures they are shielded and down directed so there's a limited footprint from each pole and again because of the way this site sets itself up the only area where our lighting is really getting to the property line for site layout is at the road and the entrance to our driveway Landscaping let's go through the Landscaping I had the privilege of in Walking the property with Miss spau and gaining Insight from Miss spau um there are commitments that we will make to the board that are not yet on the plans that stem from the discussions that I had with Miss buau if you could take us through the landscape plan as you've designed it and then if you could advise the board where enhancements are going to be made so it's certainly very mindful of Miss spo's comments and Direction on Landscaping uh first I guess what I would say is uh like with any Landscaping plan in my mind it breaks down into different areas so the foundation of foundations of the buildings certainly get Landscaping uh that's part of the plan uh the parking lot itself has trees around it as part of that process uh what's probably most significant here are are buffers and perimeter landscaping and it's Unique in some ways on this property and that there there are relatively significant uh existing trees around the perimeter of this property I think there may be some quality elements to some of those existing areas meaning that some of the under growth is probably not nice and needs to be cleaned out uh some of the the trees and shrubs probably need to be removed and then that needs to be supplemented uh and quite frankly I know we're going to need to work very thoroughly with Miss spal on how we do that and some of it probably I think is best handled even with notations and understandings in terms of numbers of buffer trees that will go in and then determining in the field where those best locations are so Lou and if I could just ask to clarify so this is the most current site plan uh that was provided to us I think at time of the use variants there was testimony in a commitment that the 50- foot buffer along the Northerly side property line and then also against the Westerly front property line to Kent Road was going to be significantly landscaped within the full 50ft width of the buffer but what I'm looking at this plan here is you've got significant open space in between the existing vegetation which is to be supplemented um but to the building area where there's no planting proposed can you provide some clarity on that for the board's perspective so I think a Clarity simple that we need to add more Landscaping in there uh that uh there's a couple of additional areas that from the plan that was submitted need additional plantings including along Kent Road buffer you're talking about and then also where we've added property uh behind the existing building I think we're landscaped on our side but then there's also space to The Far Side uh Mr um Mr P uh when we had went out there um along Kent Road it does show tree save there but it's not quite accurate what's in the field um there's sparse trees over there for most of that section um and many of them are not in good condition so that that whole Kent Road Frontage will be a typical buffer planting we don't have to just you know find a gap to put a trade that area has to be planted okay if I may when we were on the property Miss buau identified Chestnut trees through a number of chestnut trees including saplings and a couple that were large um the goal is to try to preserve the healthy Chestnut trees that are there because they're unique well they were black walnuts I think I think they were black walnut they weren't chest I would believe this SP Chestnut trees are extinct yeah they weren't Chestnut trees I'm glad Miss Bureau is here to correct me those those trees are in that first area to the left of the entrance over Clos closer to the drive close to the driveway so um I had made a note to memorialize the request that was made by Miss spow I got the tree wrong I corre no problem so if you could respond to both Charlie and to miss be those are the areas that will be further landscaped I have no dispute with what they've said and our intent is to satisfy all their concerns think that there was also a comment letter that was ISS not a comment there was a review letter that was issued by Miss [Music] buau September 18th and it includes some specific recommendations for planting I'm going to ask if you could acknowledge receipt of that report and agree that that report will be complied with yes and we will certainly follow up as well to make sure we're addressing those and anything else I think there's guys it's really hard to hear you I can barely hear you I'm sure the people in the back can't hear a single word you're saying I literally can't hear you at all and I know that they are not being able to hear you either well see we turn it up the the next I'm going to ask if you could identify the trash storage and trash removal plan that's part of the plan uh certainly uh I mentioned it briefly earlier there's one uh exterior trash enclosure it's between the two buildings uh it's readily accessible for pickup by commercial vehicles it's easily accessible from the buildings this would have a masonry it's just there to the left see that yes um would have a masonry wall enclosure would be brick to match work done on the buildings and then would be landscape being uh as a buffer around it it's internal to the site so it's I think a good location where it's not necessarily overly visible but also is accessible the there's a um water and sewer are not available so well and septic I'm going to ask if you could speak a little bit more about the septic system is that something that your firm will be responsible for Designing so our firm will certainly oversee the process and depending ultimately on the design and the permitting required uh we might seek uh support so there's discussion before about um enhanced septic systems we would seek support for that if it's a septic system under 2,000 gallons per day we're comfortable with that level of design Mr Pay yes if Mr zuk could put on the record how what's the distance to the oh you know sewer connection if you were to go ahead and pursue that Avenue you know that there's one in Ocean County in Lakewood not available to us we're outside of that franchise area so that one we don't get to measure to but the do you know the location I I have looked at this before but I did not come prepared [Music] a number of reports that have been provided to us by the board um I think most significant are the reports that were issued by Miss phoh which we just spoke to the report that was issued by Mr cunliff that dated December 30th and the report that was generated by m Beam on March 19th are there any elements of those reports that you would like to call out as having difficulty address or are you prepared to advise the board that you can and you will work with those professionals to address their concerns so I'll answer your question I just want to add one more site plan comment or note there is a proposed Monument sign for the site uh would be our Boulevard entrance and it would actually be on the north side of the entrance only uh angled so you would see it as you came from the south uh and it would be a ground level Monument sign uh dimensionally uh it would meet all of your requirements the literal letters and colors haven't been worked out yet but it would be a a compliant Monument sign it would have uplighting and it would be at that corner of the entry drive going back to your review letter comment I have reviewed all of them uh I know it will take some work but I'm uh confident we will in the end address any outstanding comments there's nothing in there that we're trying to seek exception from there's a number of comments in the reports that speak to variances the variance testimony will come from misophone later in the evening um we acknowledge that there's variants really required for what we're asking this board and that just it's not addressed by Mr zner at this point Mr chairman that concludes my direct examination of Mr zner and he is available for examination but Mr chairman I just one question Ken which is we haven't identified this document well I know what it is technically but by we have as a marking actual site plan that's a submit a sheet from the um plan set that was filed we go to the title block we can call it out so the application the site plan application is A3 this is this is the site plan this no I know on the screen this is sheet eight of 17 from the submitted site plan okay two sheets prepared by midlantic so a a13 and 14 are architectural plans but that's not what you're speaking of I just don't okay so it's part of right eileene is pointing out it's part of A6 for the record it's part of A6 thank you okay all right so Charlie yes Mr chair so um to go back to the septic I just want to ask a couple clarifying questions so Mr zner is part of the applicant's I want to say maybe second submission there is a septic uh how Township uh individual subsurface seage Disposal system permit with an expiration dated July 17 2024 it had a mam County Board of Health approval dated August 4th 20223 and it said an approval for a disposal bet of 36 by 90 ft um and it I think the permit lless midatlantic engineering Partners LLC um as the engineer for that can you provide testimony regarding that approval and then what the number of students that approval was was designed for excuse me that was the old one uh no there's uh so um as part of this application and part of what we're discussing here in terms of use and numbers of students uh the application before you with uhing number of students at 167 students uh that was the design that Charlie's referring to and that is under the 2,000 gallons per day at 167 students so that 36 by 90 is for 167 students correct so the one that's shown on the plan that is apologize I just want to make sure I site the size correctly 98 by 885 how many students can that handle uh so um I apologize I'm I've got some additional numbers here that design is actually 180 students and 13 staff that 36 by 90 at 36 by 90 so if 36 by 90 can handle 180 students why does the site plan that's presented to us show a septic field of 98 by 85 5 ft so the I think um again as we've been talking about in terms of um capacity for the school we're trying to show an area that could uh support a larger field if necessary than what that we we identified an area that design fits within that area so is it the applicants representation that they're only constructing a 36x 90t septic disposal field for this 180 students that that would be what our uh application would seek yes okay I just want to make sure that's clear because Mr Pape you tracking say that are you tracking yep okay and that's under 2,000 gallons per day right which is the limit that Board of Health County Board of Health can approve that's correct okay so are you going to are you going to revise your plans to show the correct area I think that following the guidance of the chair I've written down that we are to provide a copy of the permit and to provide a copy of the plants we'll provide them to eileene and to to char I think maybe a little added to Mrs beam's asking so often when we do a site plan application we would identify an area for septic it's then sort of a separate plan of permit but here obviously based on what we're discussing our plan needs to be updated and show your professionals literally the grading of the field everything that's happening around it to assure that we're outside the 50ft buffer and we will certainly agree to do all of that you know with jly go ahead the the point that I just want to make is the for 180 students it's a 90 by 36 foot disposal field what's shown on the plan is 98 by 85 you know that's more than double the footprint plus or minus of what was approved for 100 180 students so I would anticipate that when they come back with a revised plan showing the smaller field and the grading that the box is going to be you know roughly half the size um you know when it's shown double the size it leads me to believe that the enrollment might be more than what is what's being presented to us and and like I said the only point is and this was a long discussion as part of the the use variance testimony is there's a different permit that's required when you go above 2,000 gallons per day and you know it's additional sewage demand we do have the matito Conch uh River on the south side of the property here there is environmentally restrictive uh areas associated with that you know we just it's it's atypical for us to be seeing a application coming back in for almost half the scope of what was previously app approved and you know I think that's what we're just asking question about you are a great Steward of our natural resources and our water management good job Charlie yes we go ahead Mr Martin do you have a question yeah I mean we're kind of on this 180 figure but what happens when we do have these extra events where you're going to have a lot more people there is that going to that small window could that be an issue you I was going to I I've lived in Millstone Township for 40 years and we were on a septic system I had a Christmas party I pumped the the day before and I pumped the day after um but that's just a practical answer what's the real answer well um but I appreciate your question the way a septic system is designed or permanent is based on um calculation of students and space in the building uh and you would presume that it's also assuming that there are events from time to time in the building and one event would not necessarily uh trigger overload the septic system if it's functioning properly just like in your home your home is designed based on a number of bedrooms and if you have a holiday party and have all your friends and cousins over you haven't violated anything and your septic should still be able to support that one night yeah we're talking a you're talking kind of an example as families but I I think certain events you may or extra activities I think we're talking more than just you know that's I just want to be sure on this because you know that is a concern Mr chair this is a use variance application and I think there's so many questions regarding the septic the design the impact to the buffer how how big the area is that I I almost feel like we need that information in advance of being asked to to act on the application because there is a component which Miss Kone I know she's here and excellent what she does but she has to demonstrate the negative criteria which is no negative impact to surrounding land uses and an undersized septic system could potentially present a negative impact on surrounding land uses I would suggest and it's up to you as a board that the applicant clean this up and before they come back to us and ask us to act on the application because this is a question mark associated with a negative criteria and I don't mean to speak for Miss cfone because obviously she knows what she's doing but I don't know how she can address the negative criteria when we don't have the requisite information in order for us to either opine one way or the other and I don't even know she has the information but I'm just saying there's so many open-ended questions about the design of the septic that I feel like we should get more detailed information about this before the board is put in any in any position to act on the application Miss beam I am tracking and I Concur and that's where I was going but you got there before I did thank you I'm here okay uh Mr Hughes has a question yeah to Charlie or Jen I know when we're talking about houses and mounted systems versus uh you know non-mounted does that have any effect on on you know beyond residential on this particular if it's mounted does it make a difference so before you answer the only thing I would say is is that the way it's designed on the plan is literally the limit of the septic hits the buffer so if it's mounded and has to be graded I think Charlie you you did discuss that earlier there's a potential that the grading were to impact the buffer so that would be a variance so it does have the potential to create relief I'm not suggesting that it does need to be mounted I'm just saying we don't know and we don't have the the grading plan associated with the septic design to determine it and and I would just say to the board we have sent residents home to give us more detailed information on septic systems because we don't have the requisite information so it's not abely this is not a a specific concern related to this application we have sent single family homeowners home to give us more detailed information on how they're going to lay out their septic design and whether that impacts relief or not well I I also know when we have a home with a mounded in the front we try to avoid that for my question is would that have any effect in your mind on this this is not in the front yard I'm I'm just trying to get a an idea what your feelings are on if it was to be mounted other than the potential grading in the buffer from my perspective on where this is located no okay but you may have a different answer well I I mean the Topography of the site if anyone's driven by the site you can see the site driveway that's existing the Salomon Shor school goes up quite considerably so you're putting a septic system on an elevated site you know septic system designs work they function on the effluent kind of percolating through the subsoils you know it goes vertically but some of it also does go horizontally so uh if it's elevated above grade Dem Mound that creates a possibility that it further disperses uh horizontally I know if I recall correctly when we were here as part of the use variants I believe one of the adjoins had some questions and concerns regarding the septic design and what was going to ultimately what it was going to look like what was the capacity and everything like that um you know obviously we haven't gotten to public yet but you know you've heard our our concerns from from a professional perspective regarding the septic system and the demand so that's right Charlie thank you okay M scotson no I was just gonna my only con I mean that I I thank you because I was thinking exactly the same thing it's like there's just so many unknown questions and you know it would be one thing if I'm at a line and saying this please stop me but if it would be one thing if you know with the 188 or what the number and then yes there is a potential for growth then perhaps we should know that if there's maybe some room for growth number two is with the septic you know um that's important because if it's not set properly besides the the the buffer it's running into the backyard of 278 Ford Road so that's a problem um potentially if there's an issue so that's why these things have to be discussed in more detail um for us to be able to understand it better so Mr zna you know how far is the closest connection and do we need an easement to get there right the sewer would solve a lot of that Pro that problem is what I'm saying I hear you I'll have to do a little research here and get you an answer okay thank you all right anybody else questions we're good job and I I just want to give Clarity too right so if you're not in a sewer service area um and Sewer is a great distance away right there's nothing to say that you can't get approvals from the Board of Health or from d and nypt permit for septic system I think the point that we're just making as a board is there's a line in the sand between 2,000 gallons or less it's Board of Health above that it's a more enhanced system that requires more regulatory permits as opposed to just you know one for 2,000 Gall and with the matito con right there Charlie I agree yes absolutely okay so Mr P um we're going to continue to uh hear testimony I guess but we we probably won't hear Miss cfone until such time you know phone's goingon to get the night off although I don't want her to leave because her listening is so valuable to us tomorrow okay Miss um if Mr zner will remain you're go will the public cross-examination occur later this evening not after each witness what's the pleasure of the board do you want to open it now for Mr zner or do you want to go ahead and go through a further testimony and then open it I don't know that's uh weren't we supposed to be doing it per professional I think that's what is that what you would like to do okay I would suggest that questions relate specifically oh absolutely correct okay so we can we have a motion to open a public for the engineer only a motion to open we got a motion we got a second okay all in favor I all right e we're going to open up to public just for the engineer the board will now open up to public for engineering questions if you'd like to come up state your name and your home address so this is for the public anybody that wants to ask a question of the board of the engineer Vice Mr hi Mr Bear yes hi can can you just give us your name please yes Ruby Wang w& G okay Miss Wang do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got yes Miss Wang is sworn Mr chairman may I ask that Miss Wang share with us her address 337 Ford Road thank you this is questions just for the engineer yes I'm I know that there's been a lot of uncertainty with regards to this because there's similarities to what they have prep pre presented before but there's quite a lot of differences as well that we need to address and understand my concern is with regards to the septic they don't know how many students they're going to really be building for and they say that there's no intent for growth but we know that that never really happens with the area that we're in right now so they really need to understand and plan accordingly and design to the number of students now also this application has brought in Lots 22 and 23 with the new additional Lots hence the new two-story building how many students are that going to be you know occupying and entertaining I don't mean to be root this is not a question that is for the engineer well it's with regard to the has been presented yet for examination it does follow but with regards to the septic I mean how thought you put it in the form of a question we need to understand how many students are and therefore you need to then also properly present a septic design you're saying you want to relocate the septic to a new location we don't know and understand how is that designed and how is that accommodating the school that you're planning to build Mr zugar so again I think we've had some discussion on it but we're removing the existing septic and we are building a new septic system uh and as the professionals have asked they like to see more of the final design and Grading of where that will go uh which we'll need to provide to them but as you can see on this screen here that is where the proposed septic system would go so therefore will you be presenting a new application and designed to address this and also addressing the number of students for the school there won't be a new application there will be revisions to the plan to include all of the work that Mr Zer firm did with regard to the septic system and the number of students has been testified to and will be testified during other Witnesses and the commitment that the applicant has made is the cap on that number of students which is now part of the record you also mentioned about the um gymnasium in the back proposed or addition to it and how many students will be accommodating that facility and also the events even though you say you limit to three events for the year there are additional events will there be games that they be hosting other schools progam this is not testimony that was provided by the engineer it we'll come we'll come to that yeah it's all part of my concern with regards to the septic and I mean I believe they should really put in a new application and prepare the design put forth Miss SW we're not going to vote on this application until such time that we see the additional plans coming forward and we examine them thank you you're welcome so and Mr chair I just want to note so we asked questions about this at time of the use variance about whether there was like games from other schools and things like that and whether there's open gyms things like that and I think there was representations made on the record under the prior use fence prule that uh it would just be for the students at this school there wasn't like Regional tournaments or like competition or anything like that so I didn't ask it cuz we're at the engineer now this is something more so with the operations um but you know a lot of these things were testified to and I think in both mine and Jen's letter it's please confirm that there's no change to these um we're hitting on the big ones that there was a clear night and day difference uh from the prior um use farance approval but when we get to the appropriate parties we will ask additional clarifying questions got it thank you yeah so I I just want to reiterate I do think that there needs to be operational testimony because you know I agree with with Charlie there was a lot of testimony but you as a board did not allow them to increase the height of the building in the gymnasium area so that may have limited what was going on in there and now we're proposing to increase the height in that area and so my guess and I don't know because we haven't heard any operational testimony is that the activities in that space may change now that they're increased height so once we hear from the architect then we'll un well that's not architectural testimony the architect In fairness was given a program saying increase the height of the building and design it she's not responsible to provide us with testimony as to how they plan on using it there needs to be some testimony from the school in order for us to understand why even though the last time we said do not increase the height of the building that they're now coming back to increase the he of the building Jen I agree we need operational testing 100% but we need to see what we're asking oh I I agree but I think okay I think the operations goes beyond just the gym so I think that you know there needs to be some kind of operational testimony provided Regarding why we anticipate half the number of students that was approved for before why the building is the size that it is given the fact that you're you had an approval for 380 students now you're saying 180 students so there needs to be significant testimony regarding what is happening here in order for the board and the public to understand what is actually being asked for and I don't think we've gotten there yet no we've only witness but yes we will have operations testimony we'll have to yes call I'm sorry Mr chair you'll recall Jack mandle bam spoke on behalf uh and I anticipate that Mr mandle bam will be the the person who speaks again he is the one most familiar with all of the operations but I the applicant is going to ask the board to allow the increase of the building's height that increases 2 feet 10 in 2 feet 10 in is the additional height that we're going to ask the board and Miss beam just said you know how does how do we do that we certainly have to earn it with the testimony of all the witnesses but that was the reason that we went out and asked if our neighbor would sell us additional properties right now we have a building that's almost on the property line but with additional lands we have a full 50 feet away from our neighbor and that'll be part of what we present to you and support of requesting lifting that building 2 feet 10 in and actually only half of the building 2 feet 10 in Okay so yeah and I just want to make one more comment so Mr Zar obviously prepared the site plan we had some comments in there about like the new V EV charging laws and stuff like that um is Mr kennel prepared to answer those questions to give the board context when this got approved at the Ed Fair level it was before the state enacted the new EV charging laws um anything that comes in after that time for amended preliminary and final for sorry an original application or amended application for preliminary final site plan has to comply with EV uh charging requirements um you know is that something that the you're going to testify to or is it something that Mr I think it's a good point that you brought up and I think from the prior time where you were here to this it was possibly something that we didn't include um Mr kff did raise and it's something we need to change they uh I don't know the exact number I believe it would be two for the 39 but we have to is that right I think yeah that's that's what I have y we would have to add those into the parking so we would need an EV charger an EV charging so Mr Pay yes do you want to just carry i' rather there's considerable other information I think we can share that the board I think you'd be very interested in the architect's testimony Jen we're good we're going to hear the architect we're going to take a 10-minute break as well okay we got to close public yes that thank you Mark motion to close second oh Mr chairman somebody else wants to okay okay okay better come up speak down father funny I'm sorry say your name please my name is David Sherry and your address 311 Ford Road okay Mr Sherry raise your right hand do you swear that testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the help you got I do Jerry is sworn Mr Chairman's question is just for the engineer um so I do have a couple questions uh you did mention they would be installing a quantity of 19 18t electrical poles for lighting uh you did mention the uh warmth of those lights do you happen to have information on how many lumens those lights will output uh I could obtain that for you uh but I don't off the top my head know the total Lins okay CU my concern is uh there would be a lot of light from some poles that large especially considering it's a residential neighborhood for the most part and all the houses are very low um my next question is you mentioned that there would be a quantity of 39 parking spaces uh with the possibility of 29 overflow which you said would be parked if I'm not mistaken on a grassy area um my concern there is you know Vehicles leak oil obviously being located Lo at directly next to the metacon I would be concerned about runoff from those Vehicles entering the metacon uh is there any plan for mitigating waste from those vehicles or is that just the plan if there's an event to park those vehicles on that grassy area and um you mentioned uh the original count of 190 students which is now up to 380 it seems that's not clear um but it seems 380 it was 380 and now it's reduced to 190 uh so even at that reduced count 39 parking spaces is for seemingly 190 students seems like an insufficient amount of parking uh is there any plan to mitigate traffic in the area I see that you have in driveway entering the property um but the Ford and Kent intersection is very busy as it is um and my concern would be additional traffic in that area is there any plan to mitigate that traffic that I I wouldn't say mitigate the traffic I would point out that none of the students have cars none of the graduate students have cars none of the undergraduate students have cars none of the students are permitted to bring a car to the campus and that was a commitment that was made previously and it's renewed that the students are almost exclusively brought to the campus by buses and that is a commitment that we'll make the statement that we made was that there is the occasional parent who brings a child but that was the exception and not the rule all of those statements that were made are are brought forward um this evening as part of this application I think that my followup question then would be uh what the requirement is for such a large parking area I see that one of the uh requested variances is a maximum lock coverage of 26% where everybody in an agriculture area is limited to 15% coverage so uh I'm just trying to understand where that law coverage comes from it seems to me that perhaps there might be some something additional that you guys are trying to seek with that lock coverage um but could you clarify then what the parking would be used for if the majority of students would be arriving by bus is it just for these larger events uh so again not to throw everything back to what we talked about before there was some extensive discussion on the use the building and how we came to that parking calculation and to some extent uh what we tried to do was Meet the parking requirement but not have an excessive amount of parking and that's how we got to the Overflow parking where those spaces would be grass spaces in these three times a year where there's a need for more parking in an event we would have it uh and the expectation is that of the 39 spaces that they would be uh certainly some of them would be used daily but that it would not be a full parking lot that uh approximately 12 staff any one time on site there could be a few other visitors or people the students don't have car cars uh but the 39 meets the parking requirement understood um I would like something clarified uh earlier you had mentioned or somebody had mentioned that the existing septic system was located on the south side of the property um the diagram shows it currently on the north side of the property and it appears that they're expanding the existing septic field I understand the details of the septic field somehow have not been figured out in the past two years um but I question uh where the current septic system is is it on the south side or is it as shown so to some degree both there were uh two existing systems one was a replacement uh where you're referring to there was a septic system there where the new one would go uh there's also an operational one that's south of the building it's actually into the wetlands buffer that's why we're removing that one uh it was permitted some long time ago uh and that's the one that's going to be removed and that's restored as buffer to the Matia comp okay and uh has any study been done on any potential runoff from the proposed new septic system into the medicon or is there any plans to do any so uh if we design the system and get approval as we can at the 180 students from the County Board of Health uh that based on its flow numbers does not require an offsite or extensive of um study of nitrates or dilution models now though that may be true what I'm struggling to understand is the septic system proposed is for this 180 students it seems to me that the original proposed plans was reduced in size and capacity in order to remain under that 2,000 gallons per day requirement now if the system will be at capacity with the proposed number of students then in my mind that leaves no excess for any planned events that might you know exceed the population beyond the 180 students um so I'm just struggling to understand obviously it was mentioned hey when people come over to my house you know I can clear myself the day before but in this case we're talking about a much larger facility and I think that the magnetude of the issue should not be you know lessened to that degree of hey I'm having family over this is a very big concern metacon is a protected Waterway as well as just you know being in a residential area that's a very big concern of me the only comment that I can make is that the septic system that is now adjacent to the matto that septic system that is adjacent to the Mattoon has been servicing for a very long period of time the same population that we're asking this board to consider as the population going forward and we're going to remove it from the buffer area alongside the Munk and we're going to move it to the opposite side of the building we're going to do so with modern permits and not relying on a permit that was granted some 50 or 60 years ago I respect that you're going to not use the permit that was some 50 to 60 years ago but uh your statement is conflicting in that you're saying that the existing system has the capacity for the current number of students which I don't know if it was mentioned but what is the current number of students and if we're increasing to that 180 I'm guessing that the system that's currently in place is not capable of supporting that 180 students the number of students that has that are there and have been there for the past 10 years has been static it has been and it's the same number that we're asking that you allow us to go forward with there's no growth so it's 180 that there is no increase that's correct if that's the case then why is there a requirement for a new septic system I I do have to go back to uh my neighbors whose concern was that if the systems in place were sufficient for the current number of students then not would understand why there would be a proposed plan to increase the number the the septic size it seems to me that something is a Miss either the uh proposed size of the building is for significantly more than 180 students or the septic system currently in place is not capable of supporting the current student population which would be a different concern that I'm sure my neighbors would like to have addressed if the current system in place is not capable of meeting the demand currently at the building so two elements one as I mentioned the existing septic is in a wetland buffer now it was approved at the time but we do need njde permits as part of this application so D is going to say move the septic system uh secondarily I think what Mr Pape was referring to is that existing system has functioned has not failed it has supported the school but it is not large enough in its current configuration for a new building and new construction we need to build a septic that is now compliant which would mean it gets larger so I I think you've answered my question then the current system in place which you're claiming is capable of supporting the 180 students will not be large enough for the planned expansion but the planned expansion is requiring a larger septic system so again it seems to me like we're not being clear about the actual number of students that the facility will serve we'll say it as many times as as necessary and we'll find as many ways of of backing it up the student population and the staff population are not expanding no further questions thank you anyone else from public Andy Mark Mark PR two Castle Court Mr pesi do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the help you got yes Mr pus sworn Mr chairman thank you good evening board good evening I came in a little bit late so I may have missed any conversation about the letter of interpretation was there any discussion about that because I know that we did not discuss that okay so I guess I I can give you a little bit of information if you'd like well I I read that in one of the documents from the mammoth County Board of Health that it expired in September so I just wanted to ask some questions about what's going on with that so it didn't actually expire uh this goes all the way back to covid it was issued in September of 2018 I believe and then told through the covid time period so it's still is valid but we're in the process of submitting the extension request okay that was my question just whether or not we had a a valid Loi or not so and just to clarify it's it's in our letter so they do show on the plans that it's I think 100 Mr Zar can clarify if I'm correctly is it 150 foot or a 50 foot buffer associated with that W lens that you have on the property uh I think there's a combination off the matito con there's a 300 foot buffer that's reparan right right but the wetlands is 150 foot yes and you you're showing so if the LOI does laps prior to the applicant you know getting approval from the board right and it's does not covered by any covid permit extension they would have to revalidate that you're in the process of getting uh Taw permit from d for the correct yes so and and to give the boards Clarity and we discussed this when this came in for the use variant so the the driveway expansion that you're proposing is largely within the same footprint of where the existing driveway is and where you are expanding you're expanding Northerly from from the from the ma okay so any approval by this body is conditioned on any Outside Agency approval that includes making sure that the LOI is still valid and then obviously they got to get any Taw or any other D per that are required as a condition of approval absolutely so Mr py thank you you're good yeah so I mean wouldn't it stand a reason that if you have to go back to the de and there's any concern that the septic system that you've proposed May exceed the 2,000 gallons per day because the original plans in 2021 talked about a 5600 gallon per day system that you would just go and get the necessary approvals in the event that your system is going to exceed the 2,000 gallons the permitting process for Wetlands or buffers letter of interpretation is a different de Department then you would make application to for septic system design so they're not correlated while they're both in Trenton they' be separate permits okay thank you you're welcome anybody else from public motion to close we got a motion to close do we have a second second all in favor hi Eileen would close public board is now closed to the public e we'd like to take 10 minutes please the board will now take a 10-minute break and reconvene at 8:5 thank Eileen the board is back we will uh continue the meeting will now reconvene so Mr P yes sir you know we uh we go back to when we first had the concept 380 students went down to 190 you stayed with the 380 the septic is still an issue one way or the other there's got a lot a lot more testimony needs to be heard in view of the conundrum of operational testimony and the septic and so forth you know I would ask if you have the pleasure of maybe wanting to carry until we get this squared away Sir Mr chairman members of the board um I I can see the importance of the septic system designed being before the board for a thorough examination uh and I've shared it with my clients we recognize it and it's achievable so we shouldn't be trying to avoid it I just asked your secretary when is the first opportunity that we can return and it happens to be July 8th your agenda is a very full agenda we'll accept the July 8th but I would also ask if the board would consider sometime this spring to scheduling a special meeting where we can break this out and present it to the board for your consideration wow Andy well it's something legally you can do if you could we would have to add a date then just for this particular application so I don't have the calendar in front of me but Eileen um I can give you the dates that we do have meetings and you guys speak about it but the next event able date would be July no I he's the Chairman's asking about dates for a special not dates that we are not our regular meeting so what you have Council meetings and you have planning board meetings here right so those night imagine be Monday so it would probably be a Monday night yeah and off Monday Mr chair I I have meetings unless it's the fifth Monday of the month which I know that there's a fifth week in May yeah well there's I was just going to say there's a f meeting in April if it's the 1st through the 4th week of a month I have meetings every Monday the 29th of April is oh pass it's not that's the week before the 20 April 29th oh you're right you're right you're right that's the week before yeah you are right Mr P can you being ready by April 29th yeah that may be an issue for the applicant it's a less it's not a big I'm told that that is part of is part of Passover oh it is yeah that's true is there a fifth Monday in May no no July has a fth well we already have July ju yeah yeah but it's a full agenda on July 8th you're saying no July 8th your secretary tells us we'd be at we'd be at the top of the agenda we could have the evening we accept July 8th I did want to explore with you whether there was an earlier possibility but we it seems that we have we'll take the July 8th date Mr chairman okay Eileen the application can be carried till July 8th is that with or without notice Mr P um we're in the middle of the presentation we'd ask that it be without further notice and it be so announced I will also need an extension of time on the record the applicant grants an extension of time through the end of August 2024 and we'll follow it with a letter okay so case number ba9 -23 yeshivas and MC hator eek this application is going to be carried until July 8th with no further notice and an extension of time to the end of August Mr chairman board members thank you all good night thank you Mr [Applause] P Eileen any other business no business for tonight okay can I have a motion to adjourn motion okay motion to adjourn we got a second all in favor all right Eileen we're adjourn meeting has been adjourned thank you eile