[Music] good evening Eileen can you please open up the [Applause] meeting how Township zoning Board of adjustment Monday April 22nd 20124 I hereby declare this meeting of the how Township zoning board to be open adequate notice having been given pursuant to the New Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was mailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell third on December 11th 2023 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the how Township Municipal Building 4567 Route 9 how Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on how Township TV 77 this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues of what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and the decorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times thank you thank you Eileen can we have a roll call please Mr burillo here Mr caner is excused tonight Mr Hughes here Mr merens here Mr Rosco here Mr Stanton here Mr Ryan pres miss scotson here and chairman say he's somewhere around presid you have a quorum thank you well everyone please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the repic for which it stands one nation God indivisible withy and justice for all thank you Kelly would you please swear in the professionals ra your right hand do you swear thank you raise your right hand do you swear or affirm the testimony about given this matter is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do do and St your name for the record Charles conli Jennifer beam thank you okay next on the agenda approval of minutes regular meeting 26 February 2024 eligible vote is burillo caner use Mertens zoso Ryan and seya do I have a motion please motion to approve use I'll second that Ryan roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Mr Rosco good Mr Ry yes and chairman SE yes minutes approved thank you ien any vouchers no vouchers tonight Eileen do we have any correspondence no correspondence tonight okay moving on to item eight there are three Re resolutions case number ba 23-13 davidus minkis resolution granting bulk variant approval eligible voters burillo Hughes Mertens Ryan scotson and seya can I have a motion please motion to approve Ryan a second burillo second ien roll call please Mr Barillo yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes and chairman seya yes resolution approved thank you case number ba1 13-15 a-2 GF United resolution granting amended conditional use and amended site plan approval eligible voters burillo caner U Orosco Mertens Ryan and seya motion please motion to approve got a motion second we got a second roll call please Mr Barilla yes yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes and chairman say yes resolution approved thank you case number ba 23-10 royalty 19 LLC resolution granting use variants and final site plan approval eligible voters burillo caner use Mertens Orosco Ryan and seya roll call I'll make a motion I'll second we have the the vice chair and the secretary roll call please Mr bur yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Ryan yes and chairman say yes resolution approved thank you Eileen applications before the board case number ba 22-7 Alpha Keystone Novelties Distributors LLC type is a temporary use permit and the description application of Keystone Novelties Distributors LLC as applicant and 1175 Route 33 Felix brueski Route 70 properties as owner seeking a temporary use permit to allow a tent on the property to sell New Jersey legal sparkling devices from June 21 2024 to July 6 2024 and from June 21 2025 to July 6 2025 on premises known as block 135 lot 15.01 2400 US Highway 9 9 South expiration date July 13 2024 oh good good evening uh members of the board Timothy Middleton on behalf of the applicant uh good to see you um I think we can make this quick uh Mr ma to my right to your left um he can be sworn in and just go through the testimon okay you raise your right hand you you swear affirm the testimony you're about to give this matter is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do state and dislay your name for the record please John May JN m a y eorn Mr May you're you're the uh the applicant or you you represent your part of the applicant in terms of ownership correct yes are you familiar with the application yes and you were here I believe approximately two years ago essentially with the same location same application we were here at this location with the same setup for the past two years without incident uh four years before that we were at how Lanes uh without incident this is a renewal for another two years uh we have authorization from the landowner to occupy the premises for the next two years as well well there's some issues in the review letter I want to go through um one has has there been any issues whatsoever in the last four years at any of locations here nothing I'm aware of uh provide testimony uh regarding the security during the evenings the we have 24hour security at at the location uh at all of our locations in New Jersey we operate about 35 of these types of sales in in New Jersey and about 400 of these throughout the Northeast we um uh we're serious about what we do and our goal is to not get a phone call from from the Township from the landlord or from from from anyone during our sale what does that security entail I mean I think that's kind of what the question is it's like what do you do to provide 24hour security somebody is on site at all times okay is the inventory you're going to be selling the same as uh what you represented to the board in 2022 it's the same inventory it's the same um material uh sparkler products that are sold in in Walmart and other Mass merchandising stores and it complies with the New Jersey Law yes are there any freestanding signs wind Flags or tent Mana signs proposed we have signs that uh are a fixed to the tent uh we can provide a sample of those if necessary it's the same signs that we have been using uh for the past uh six years again without issue without issue okay and are you going going to comply with the Township fire code and the New Jersey regulations we operate compliant with uh nfba 1124 uh which uh sets out the the weight of the width of the aisles uh within the tent uh where fire extinguishers are placed uh the type of signage that's necessary including SM no smoking uh and the like uh so yes we'll be compliant with u with New Jersey law for the sale of of sparklers and my understanding is the hours of operation is 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. daily yes with as we get closer to um July 4th typically on July 2nd or 3rd uh we close at about 11:00 okay have about on the 4th on the 4th um usually it it it closes a little bit earlier than 11 we we'll sell as long as we can if people are interested in buying but usually we're closed by 10:00 and uh you're going to be clear from the site by July 10th yes and and you have no smoking signs uh as you enter or exit we have um no smoking signs inside throughout and as you enter compliant with NFPA 1124 there is a large sign that says no smoking and no fireworks discharge within 300 ft uh our operators are are um are educated uh that no sparkling devices are set off on the property at all under no circumstances um should they be set off and um generally our our operator are complying with that so Mr chair I just want to jump in for one hot second they said they're going to comply with what was previously granted what was previously granted was on July 3rd and 4th 10:30 not 11:00 so that was it was not 11:00 it was 10:30 and operations will cease on the 6th is that correct yes and then you'll clear everything out by the 10th yes okay I just wanted to be clear on that that there will be no more sales after the 6th and everything will be clear by the 10th thank you and we'll shut down at uh at 10:30 if that sounds to sorry I I have no further question okay so and I'll just Su right so they were here years ago they got two-year temporary use permit at how Lanes they came back at another two-year extension that's the end of what's permitted in the code um they came I think for another site up on Route 33 petroleum 19 they got a 2-year permit there that site's since been redeveloped so that's what prompted them to come to this site um all the stuff and questions in my letter are basically a reiteration of every single time and just so the board knows uh we don't actually issue the temporary use permit the governing body does that we're just making a recommendation they've got their two-year permit it's set to expire we can make a recommendation for maximum extension of an additional two-year permit so um like I said the governing body will issue any additional things and findings in their resolution of the temporary use permit um but I try to restate them in my letter so they put testimony on got it thank you Charlie um John no issues with this application great board members any questions my only question this is the one this permit that you're were seeking is for Route 9 South right next to ice cream on nine I guess up in that area yeah this is the house Center shopping center we recently saw they came in to redo their sign within the last last two years so it's it's that shopping center it's I think north or south of White Street and yeah real close to the CHR Park okay got it yes and they're the eastern most parking Bays you know right along the Route n Frontage there got it okay so um I do have a question yes go ahead Mr may you said uh the employees are trained trained uh yeah can you elaborate on that yes we have an online training program uh it's about an hour and a half uh operators in order to be um permitted to operate a sale for us has to pass with a a score of um 80 or above it's a 20 question assessment at the end of the um hour and a half training program it includes um safety training as well as operations training can you be a little more specific was anything to do with like fire suppression like what what what are we talking it it it does so the the safety component of it is uh uh what they need to be mindful about transporting um the the sparkler products it includes uh safe use of uh a fire extinguisher um what to do in um in uh inclement weather uh uh those sorts of things John is there um inspections during the time frame that they're open not by code enforcement uh the uh fire uh Bureau May conduct inspections with regards to uh their code which is being enforced here so and just to add to that too so in the resolution last year that they got from the governing body authorizing temper use permit they were required to get a type one permit from the fire Bureau as part of the resolution body's approval and then regarding the signage in the resolution is specifically said like do not use within 300 ft of the tent and things like that so you know there's additional safeguards and I believe they have a fire extinguisher in the tent as well or multiple fire extinguishers in the tent as well that's right we have two fire extinguishers in in every tent and um and the New Jersey law was was updated we we we now require a typee two permit it's it's basically the same as type one but a little more expensive okay thank you okay question yes sir out of curiosity is the security the same staff that is selling during the day often it's not all know the only reason I ask I'm not saying it was your location it wasn't but I have happened to walk into one of these and I guess the nighttime security was sleeping inside the tent on air mattresses next to the fireworks so I was just curious yeah often it's not okay okay Mr Ry Mr May is is inventory replenished during the course of your stay there I hope so um in the in the better performing locations uh we have um inventory replenishment that that comes in how's that delivered uh our freight carrier is ABF their hasz met certified Freight carrier and it's typically delivered directly to the U to the tent location just as the initial um delivery is uh is made uh just in order of magnitude there's there's two pallets of product delivered um when the tent's open and if a tent's doing well we might have uh another single pallet delivered uh late late June okay thank you okay so what's the pleasure of the board this is a use permit that we would be recommending to the governing body to issue to this applicant um Kelly we need do we need to vote on that yes I think what you're looking for is a motion for recommendation and if you want to include any any additional conditions or if you just want to State the prior you know the same prior conditions and then a vote okay thank you I'll make a motion for a vote for a recommendation okay with all the conditions with all the previously existing conditions and the new and any new stipulations yes okay I'll second that sir okay we got a motion and we got a second Eileen can we have a roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Mertens yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Stanton yes Mr Ryan yes Miss scotson yes and chairman seya yes approve okay thank you Mr medon have a great day guys good luck thank you hopefully you'll be buying stuff okay next application up in front of the board case number ba 23-11 Christ Church of how this is a use variant with preliminary and final site plan approval description application of Christ Church of Hal as applicant and owner seeking use variants in preliminary and final site plan approval to construct the one-story 22185 ftt addition to to the existing house of worship and a new one-story 1,635 ft Maintenance building with Associated parking storm water management and other site improvements on premises known as block 66 Lots 36177 Oaken Road this application was partially held heard on March 11th 2024 expiration date May 2nd 2024 sir good evening Richard scary hen nean and Wright on behalf of Christ Church of Howell uh as chairman stated we began with the application on March 11th we finished about half of it uh we're here to hopefully finish the rest of it we have three Witnesses uh that will call our traffic uh expert our architect and our planner so unless the board has any questions we're ready to continue Mr chair I would just request we requested that the applicant submit a detailed statement of operations and so you're going to need to bring someone back to we did I know that but we have questions about it so somebody's going to need to come back up and address the questions regarding the statement of oper yes we have um the person here that testified before and if you'd like her to testify first answer your questions yeah I think that that would be that would work sir that would be great yeah bring her back up I apologize and and realize you you were going that way all right so we can we can start with uh Miss uh antonet um as welcome back ma'am and she was sworn at the prior hearing so you continue to be under oath okay okay thank you okay so the statement of operations Dan you have that I do have it and I have a couple questions about it okay so the fir like going through you're saying the hours of operation are 8:30 to 11:30 a.m. but then it's like these hours will change if we go to multiple services in the sanctuary that's something that we're going to need to know because you're here because you don't comply with the parking and if you have two Services back to back there's going to be overlap in the parking requirement and therefore is could be temp could be problematic we do not want cars along the side of Oakland Road so you know I I understand you'd like flexibility but we're going to need to know a little bit more detail on are you at the I mean given what I've I've I've looked at in terms of your congregation and the attendance is there a need for additional Services it is not but I just wanted to state if the church grew to that then what we would do is we would put additional time in between to give time for leaving and then additional service for later so I think have to be back to back should that happen they're going to have to come back and explain how that's going to work that's fine I mean if there's a condition that needs to be put in as to that uh we would agree just because we don't know how many services what the Gap in time is going to be if there's overlap they already are deficient on their parking which is why they're here before us versus at the planning board there's nowhere to overflow on Oakland Road so if if at some point in the future you get to that point I think that the that they should come back and just explain that to the board that's not something that I feel the town should do administratively um that's fine secondly the hours of operation for the studio and the answer is its intended purpose is not for R correct okay so I don't like the language it's not for rental the intention is problematic because your intention could change so if you're not going to rent it the condition will be it is not for rent okay is that acceptable that's acceptable yes okay thank you um and then I I I need to so I I'm struggling I understand the food pantry I mean my office is literally across the street from ffil so I know exactly how that operates they were just before the Neptune board um how is that going to work because I can tell you in the months leading up to Thanksgiving and Christmas the traffic leading out of fil backs up Route 66 for at least a mile so I need to understand how exactly that food pantry is going to work are you are like how are the deliveries going to be made how frequently the deliveries are going to be made how many people are going to be using that food pantry because I could tell you it's a it's a major traffic Hazard on rout 66 F A Phill and they just came back into the board and I think we're a little shocked at the reception that they received because it's dangerous so how exactly is that food pantry going to operate it it operates once a month delivery is on Friday so it's not the same day it's on Friday delivery and uh it's from the hours of 9 to 11 or 9 to 12 9 12 9 to 12 o' they're wrapping up do people come by appointment no how many families do you serve presently we have 56 but it varies because it's sometimes it drops from that sometimes it adds to that but we've not gone over and that's during the holidays doing Thanksgiving and things of that sort what we've done is is that we expand the days so that in other words instead of having it just at once a month we will do it the week before as well as so it expands the time so it's not that full but but typically except for Thanksgiving it's once a month delivery is Friday and it's Saturday from 9: to 12: so what I would like to see should the board act favorably on the application is a queue plan for how the families come in pick up their food and how they go out because going I I need I need a que plan to show because generally they don't get like they're not there on site for a very long period of time but the queue depending on how it's cued could theoretically go out onto Oakland road which could create a a not so pleasant circumstance so I'm not suggesting that it's fatal it's definitely not but what we're going to need to see from uh if the board acts favorably is a plan prepared I see your traffic engineer over there to show what the que would be how how they manage to get through the site how they go out um because I I live it it it's a very dangerous situation I'm not I think what they're doing is fantastic but we got to make sure that it doesn't create an unsafe condition okay we do have I just call um I have some things to say about okay well maybe after um after I'm done after but we do have a setup I don't know I I get it so what I'm saying is that we need you to submit it so that we have it in the event that because what will happen is those residents that live in the neighborhood across the street if the queuing goes out onto Oakland Road and then there's problematic and they're getting into being stuck behind traffic they're going to call John and he's going to have nothing on paper to say this is how it's set up so we just need you to formally submit that should the board act in the affirmative regarding the food pantry that would be position and the C correct okay um I noticed there it says on like for number 15 in the future we might want to consider a second floor onto the administrative offices that would also require return to the board yes yes we we understand that that's all I have on this Mr chair thank you chair welcome can can I ask something Mr Stanton did you certifi to vote for this application before they I didn't get anything in the mail but I did watch the video because I I live a half a mile of the street okay I did email you but I have the I didn't see it I'm sorry I will certify down sorry I apologize I used to go so is there any more questions for M Mr sh we uh you know the premise for the planner going going over the operational statement and the flow of traffic we've talked last meeting we're concerned about of course the flow on Oakland Road right um there's been you know a lot of growth people do move very quickly we've got the 195 overpass they come flying over it both directions I've seen accidents there and what we're trying to do is figure out through this process can we improve that situation and make sure that our residents are safe and you know in doing so yes completely understand and I'll call after going over the operations I'll call our traffic expert and and okay we'll be holding down really specifically and all those traffic concerns great thank you okay all right does any of the board members have any questions we're good right now Charlie we're good yeah I have John we're good good sir we're good yes if I can just call um uh Reverend Addison he might be able to answer maybe a few more of the questions from from the board planner any call up so thank and the Reverend was also sworn previously so you continue to be under oath sure thank you so uh Reverend um just the board planner had some questions on the statement of operations is there anything you just want to clarify or add so we're fully you know fully explain everything so I I I don't think that they we can really compare what we do to fulfill fulfill if you've been to their facility it's a warehouse stacked with shelves and pallets that serve thousands and thousands of people and that's and they do a great job we are a satellite of that we do 30 to 50 families in a month and so when people come to our property they turn into the driveway and they queue inside the property right now and so they don't back up out onto Oakland Road they queue in the property and there's a circular driveway there and we intend to have a similar sort of plan and they will queue in there and then they will either make a left or a right out of the property back onto Oakland Road and so I I don't think that it's a fair comparison to um compare what we're doing as a satellite for fulfill compared to what they are doing in Neptune serving thousands and thousands of families uh for their benefit um the other concern that I have is um the requirement or the suggestion to have to come back to the board because the church grows and wants to go to multiple services to me um that is um something that um we meet the needs of the community and so we time out in order that people would be able to have parking and be able to come in and out of the property uh in a reasonable way one thing I can tell you if there's not enough parking people will not come to the church right so um there's got to be enough parking we have to remember that the sanctuary is not being expanded and we do not see at any time that we will have full use of the entire property so I'd like to reiterate the multi-purpose room there there will never be a time ever where you will have a wedding right or a reception in a multi-purpose room and church going on at the same time it it just it violates our operation it'll never happened and so that means that if we did go to multiple Services the multi-purpose room would not be used during any of those times that we go to you know to multiple services and so the parking would be adequate because of that particular use and so I so I'd like to suggest that um that uh we would not have to come back to the board for the permission to operate the church in a religious fashion to offer more services to our community so I'm going to respectfully disagree you're here because you don't comply with your parking requirement and you're not even close so you require 399 spaces and you're at 266 and so I understand your desire but I'm not going to agree to that because if you go to multiple services and there's overlap and we don't know what the timing is ETC you don't have enough parking quite frankly to satisfy your current parking demand if you have overlap it's going to make the situation worse we have required any changes of anybody who gets a use variants at any time for any reason to come back to this board to say this is what we're changing so this is going to be no exception this is not special for you this is what we do for everyone so I I don't agree with that at all if they change to go to multiple Services they're going to have to come back and explain it secondly while I can appreciate they're not fulfill a q a q plan is is essential because at the end of the day that circular driveway is right in the front it's not super deep into the site and there's no place for cars to go if it becomes problematic and I'm not saying it's going to become problematic but if it does it provides the township an opportunity to say this is how you said this was going to function and now we're going to reconcile it with what you've represented at the board so I understand what You' like but I I do not agree I think you're here for x you don't get X Plus y in the event like we never allowed someone to say well we're here for this but maybe we're going to do this in the future and we're not going to have to come back to explain it to you that has never happened and I've been working for this board for a very long time so I understand your desire but I don't support it I apologize thank you thank you okay thank you re well I'm sorry the board have any questions for the Reverend or um did anybody I'd like to add something I live in a neighboring community over there probably half a mile up the road I will tell you residents especially my neighbors complain all the time about on street parking Jen's right you don't want to wind up in a position where you become Public Enemy Number One because you didn't cover your bases I routinely have tractor trailers parked behind my house guys sleeping and I'm not saying that's the case with you but the residents over there are a little up in arms so I know it's difficult and it's a stumbling block but instead of aggravating some neighbors maybe you're better off just heeding her advice a little bit that way you're compliant but I think what you're doing is Noble yes thank you very much okay um my next witness is Douglas Pock or traffic engineer we're going to need to have Douglas sworn in and I'd like to have his credentials put on the record please absolutely thank you before you sit down do you swear affirm the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do can you please spell your name for the record sure it's Douglas piac p is in Peter o l y n i a thank you thank you um Mr penc um by whom are you employed uh yes I'm a project engineer with Dolan and Dean Consulting Engineers located in Somerville New Jersey okay and describe what your profession question is uh sure I'm a traffic engineer uh by trade and by license um I'm a Bachelor's of Science and civil engineering from Lei University uh I graduated in 1998 since that time I've worked in the field of traffic engineering uh like I said I've been licensed for about the last 20 years licensed by who sir uh as a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey in the state of New Jersey okay and um I've testified before over 100 Municipal planning and zoning boards in the state of New Jersey as a traffic engineer correct okay we'll accept your credentials okay thank you thank you um Mr I'm sorry po po p not even close just as it spelled PC um have you review the uh uh the board professionals uh engineers and the plers letters I have okay and did you also prepare a traffic impact analysis and support of uh the application we're here for today yes I have okay and can you describe um in detail your traffic impact analysis just talking about all your findings uh concerning uh the traffic issues yeah absolutely um although as you heard from prior testimony from the church Representatives there's a substantial uh traffic increase is not anticipated because the church and the expansion will not be in operations at the same time our office prepared a pretty extensive traffic impact analysis dated October uh 2023 for that expansion uh just to reate reiterate some of the uh engineering testimony from a traffic perspective as part of the project uh the access that exists there today on Oakland Road will remain as is today it's located between denell way and Maxim Road um as you heard there'll be um no increase in um in seats within the sanctuary but the expansion will be used for religious classes events the food pantry that was recently discussed with no additional population during those Services however we did perform an analysis and we reviewed the existing volumes and traffic patterns that currently occur at the church during services on Sundays we did traffic counts out there last April in 2023 and we counted from 9:15 in the morning to 12:15 in the afternoon to incorporate both the arrival and departure time frames associated with the services we counted Oak Glenn Road the church access and denella way the northern leg uh we found that uh the church arrival peak hour as Traffic Engineers we typically look at peak hours um occurred from 9:15 to 10:15 uh during that time frame UH 60 visitors arrived and there was one exiting movement uh for the departure period post Services uh as you can imagine was the opposite of that with three entering and 69 exiting vehicles in that hour the two-way traffic along Oakland Road was approximately 180 vehicles to 240 Vehicles over the course of those hours and then what we did is we use a a software to analyze intersection movements to calculate delay for turning movements at locations so we did that analysis for the church driveway as well as for the Janella way leg that's to the north of the church driveway and um you probably heard from prior traffic testimony it's similar to a report card with a being exceptional very limited delay for turning movements where an F is at capacity where things are constrained for this analysis for the most uh arrival and departure peak hours levels of service at theoa and the church access are operating at level of service B demonstrating that there's very little delay out there and things are operating relatively smoothly um as reiterating again there's no appreciable incre increase anticipated during these arrival and departure Peak periods associated with the church uh there may be a little bit of an earlier arrival for people to use some of the new features prior to services and some may stay later afterwards whether it be to have a refreshment or to talk or to uh have a you know potential discussions or classes or some outside just to hang out but it's not going to really increase traffic it may just extend the duration of the people that are on the property however to perform a extremely conservative future analysis what we did is we increased the existing Church traffic by proportionally associated with the square footage in building and that's like over three times the amount of traffic that would be there today so we multiplied that traffic that was exting there today by three and we also combined the arrival and departure peak hours to really say what if what if the traffic there is now is associated with the building expansion and what if everybody's there for an hour so they all arrive in one hour and they all leave in one hour which is never going to happen but we wanted to see make sure that there was sufficient capacity at the driveway as well as denell away to make sure that there wasn't much of an impact so when we did an analysis of those volumes we found that the mooving at the driveway and Dena way will operate a level service C so there's a slight degradation and delay however it's under a condition that's extremely conservative demonstrating that there's more than sufficient roadway capacity to handle quite a bit of expansion on site during those um Sunday peak hours when services are occurring uh I also reviewed the site plan uh with respect to the access the overall site circulation and the parking Supply uh which we've heard as a concern uh like I said the access will remain as is today will lead to minimum 25t two-way aisles those will serve parking spaces that are dimensioned 9 ft wide by 19 ft deep all these Dimensions meet standard engineering um practices and should provide uh more than efficient flow two-way throughout the site there's um you know in some instances there's 30ft Drive aisles providing uh a lot of maneuverability for uh parishioners site currently has 132 parking spaces uh another 123 are proposed for a total of 255 physical spaces on site uh there will be EV stations or or locations which allow for a credit of another 11 spaces so that total comes to 266 spaces provided now based on the ordinance and that's why we're here parking is calculated um two ways uh one way is regarding the number of seats and the other way is regarding the maximum person's occupancy on site and obviously with a large expansion in building the potential occupancy increases so when you calculate the parking requirement based on seats at one per four seats 95 spaces are required however when you apply it to that occupancy uh that's where we get that 399 spaces but that truly will never happen only because none of the or the totality of the structures on site are going to be occupied by people at the same time you either have them in the sanctuary or in the new expansion but never both so we're never that demand of 399 is extremely conservative um we also looked at the Institute of Transportation Engineers parking generation manual and for a 380 seat sanctuary they recommend 84 spaces and our office also when we were out there doing the traffic counts and parking counts and found that um excuse me found that I think it was uh I just lost my spot I think it was I'm sorry it 88 spaces occupied during our accounts The Institute of Transportation Engineers recommends 95 sorry about that so the 95 and the 88 that are recommended by it in our accounts kind of go in line with the spaces required by the ordinance based on seats so overall based on the anticipated and existing operations based on the ordinance based on seats as well as our observations I think that the 255 physical spaces on site should be more than sufficient to accommodate the existing services that are occurring now obviously as well as any potential uh expansion in use or uh post services use or even potentially um any religious ceremony uh just a couple points on the board planners letter if I can refer to that um uh section 6D uh the board planner requests testimony concer concerning certain uh uses of the site also uh talks about overall site circulation so if you haven't already can you talk about the overall site circulation on the site excuse me yeah like I had um said the dimensions that are provided on the site for the parking uh stalls as well as the aisles meet and sometimes in some places exceed some common standards with respect to aisle wids and parking stall so I fully anticipate U site circulation being efficient throughout the site can you give us those Dimensions uh for the site it was 9ot um wide spaces with 19 ft in depth the drve yeah there's minimum Drive aisles of 25 ft and some locations I believe towards the rear of the building they increase to 30 but the minimum is 25 thank you okay and I believe you testified about the uh also the Ford planner requesting testimony anticipated traffic demand do you have anything else to add besides what you testified to concerning anticipated traffic demand yeah no all I can add is that um I think we we pretty conservatively analyzed what occurs at the church or could potentially occur or won't NE necessarily occur at the church on a Sunday peak hour I think throughout the um operational outline provided by the applicant there may be some instances where there's some traffic associated with um a couple uses that are minimal I think there was a a children's um class of of 25 that could occur on Fridays Camp type item nothing that's um a very large increase in traffic during those hours and most often occur outside of your standard 4 to six uh PM peak hours okay and also at the previous hearing um when we had the testimony of um our engineer there was discussion about adding a crosswalk for pedestrians uh the cross from the adjacent neighborhood I think there was discussion as to the location of that and there was a suggestion um that the crosswalk be located in denell way and um that's also a little further from the driveway but um you state um um or testify as to any discussions about the appropriate location for the crosswalk um for this location I know there's the bridge over 195 there but uh can you provide some testimony if uh the applicant uh were required to uh put um put in a crosswalk where the best location that would be yeah I I did look at that um when I was approached with the board's concern uh looking at the intersections of denell way with Oakland Road is as well as the church driveway intersection both of them have some um Ada ramps at the corners and sidewalk provided the church has sidewalk on the southernly side so a a um a crosswalk would most likely be at that location uh the dead and L away crosswalk if um if it was located at that location would be probably on the southern side as well but when I looked a little deeper into those two locations uh we had some mention of the 195 Bridge there's a certain curvature when you're coming from the south from the north southbound that kind of has you creep up upon denell way um speed limits 45 miles per hour there is some growth on the easterly side of the roadway so um I think by providing a crosswalk further to the south at the church driveway gives you another 100 maybe even closer to 150 ft of sight line for a vehicle traveling southbound so i' I'd prefer it to be at that location because it provides additional sight line um coming down south on on Oak Glenn Dell does come up quickly and if you're you know on that curve you can't really see the person that may be using the crossw on the easterly side of um Oakland Road but um once you get around that curve and you get approach um danella you could you could certainly see the church driveway much better yeah if you um joh yeah so um typically muncipalities County entities um don't prefer mid block Crossings so what they'd be proposing so you're saying from the site driveway you've got sidewalk coming down the site driveway two pads at your site driveway you're talking about crossing over from the southernly pad right across over to the west side of Oakland Road yeah that's correct if you spin that around you get a good view so in normal instances I would make a recommendation that they run the sidewalk up the east side of the road and come right across in TI laa um I recognize a proximity to coming off of Oaken Road and the speed and the speed I think even if the crosswalk is installed at their sight Drive coming across um they should also get sign off from the tachp engineering department that they find that acceptable and they're going to need to put some like pedestrian Crossing Advanced Signs like in accordance with mutcd you know the sign at the crosswalk and then 150 300 yeah I mean I don't know if it necessarily needs to be before the overpass but like coming over the overpass before you get to denell away whatever is compliant with mutcd they need to put the advance the advance signage just letting people know there's a crosswalk Charlie you know townships install you know push buttons on both sides right where they're blinking light and slow down you know pedestrian Crossing that type of stuff you you know certainly it's a Ence application it's within in your right to request you know reasonable conditions of approval if you think that you know uh you're particularly concerned about pedestrian saf crossing the street they do make solar mounted you know uh panels for the light type of pedestrian crossing signs that still are activated by a push push button you know there's a cost obviously associated with those uh you know that's as the board knows we don't weigh that as any uh consideration on land use applications um but it's something certainly that I think is reason um I think you could probably also Overkill it with standard mutcd signage you know 150 300 ft both approaches to that and uh you know get a some somewhat you know uh similar Effectiveness out of it ideally you'd put it at the Township's intersection because it's a street not a driveway and there's regular traffic out of Street entranceways um so if you did it at Maxum sou uh Maxum Road they're no they're talking about doing it at their driveway at their driveway yeah but if we went further south but there's no sidewalk on their side of the street exactly yeah they'd have to run sidewalk down they have no sidewalk on their side of the street at all I think also it's a very long distance from the driveway to the maximum and their property line doesn't go all the way to maximum road right um you know you are going to have to obviously seek the sidewalk waiver and you're going to have to pay into the sidewalk fund um and this board has absolutely zero opportunity to wave that fee that's outside of their purview right well obviously we would do the crosswalk we're just trying to think of the best safest way but I I would suggest okay so first of all we're here for a use variant so there's going to be a negative criteria con conversation that's going to come up with respect to the to the the application and at the end of the day I drive there on the way home on the regular and you come over that overpass and there's literally no time if you don't know someone's in that crosswalk by the time you come over that overpass you are hitting them there is no doubt in my mind there is going to have to be some kind of an advanced notification because otherwise you're inviting people to get hit by cars I would never encourage someone to cross the street it's especially midblock which is more dangerous than that at intersection but there is going to have to be some kind of advanced notification to let someone know as they're approaching that overpass that there's someone in that crosswalk like they press the button and it will notify them that it's coming because otherwise you're either going to have cars veering off into the woods or you're going to have cars hitting pedestrians again that's why that's what our thought was to to push it back even though it's not ideal and it's mid driveway it just our thought was giving you know L extra time and an extra site but we would obviously whatever the board recommends we would you would comply with I mean it's a better condition than at the nail way because it gives you more notice but it doesn't change my opinion on the advanced warning because you come you come across that driveway very quickly and I I get it's a 45 mph speed limit but I would defy you to find one single person that drives 45 I don't disagree that something has to be put further up there's no question but having it closer to their driveway I think is the saf to me would be the safest place farther away from that over exactly so at least it's giving it an opportunity to slow down and deal with it I'm sorry did you want to add to yeah I was just saying I I think it was the board's intention to provide a crosswalk to assist the residents that live nearby to get to the church um which I assume if their parishioners would occur now and I and I think providing a crosswalk at that location is a much improved safety man manner including Jen's signage and like I said we could work with your Professionals for certainly the required mutc signing and striping um you know it's going to have to be high visibility crosswalk at that location and the you know bright green signs with the pictures of the pedestrians and arrows and whatever other features may be necessary I just got a couple more questions just before we hop on so I think in the traffic report there was a mention of a southbound left turn lane along Oakland Road at the site Drive may be necessary to maintain safe and efficient access to den La way can you talk about that statement is that in the existing condition is that you're three times the the current occupancy for the for the church what is that recommendation based off of um no I I did not recommend an exclusive left turn Lan to the church I think there was a comment in one of the review letters um asking us to look into that okay um we looked at we had um when we did our traffic counts we had a video recording of the intersection and I observed the counts as they proceeded and currently there actually wasn't an instance of someone making a left turn into the church during services and a car by bypassing um but understand that absolutely will happen but that southbound approach with the shoulder and the and a lane it's about 20 feet so there is sufficient width for a left turning vehicle to be bypassed by another car if if that Confluence of those two movements occur I I apologize that's I misstated that that's a in a comment in my letter but there was questions about circulation coming into the site driveway so I think maybe as a condition of the approval you know the whole roundabout in the front and then the parking kind of coming off that maybe some additional signage just for circulation might be helpful especially if the church is growing you know on the Easter holidays and things like that just so that way um you don't get a queuing building up or if there's a designated loading area people going to park versus loading it's just clear so that way you hopefully don't get the queue going on to uh Oakland Road backing up uh you know traffic onto Oakland Road is that something question so does the church currently utilize any sort of safety people like people outside that might wave folks around during some of your bigger Services I would have to call um I can have the re and come up if you want that answer um if that's okay you want to come up you go sure so for uh Easter and Christmas there have been times that we have hired a police officer um for uh safety not necessarily for traffic we do have some traffic Personnel from time to time that wear uh safety vests and uh with direct traffic as necessary um to try to make sure that the flow is there but currently we have the roundabout and people know to go to the right and then they can Circle all the way around and it would be a similar outline um similar sort of plan that we have as well uh for the expansion thank you thank you excuse me sir you said from time to time you have traffic people with vest what what when do you have that what what what makes you do that what would be the circumstance sure uh normally on uh holidays uh particularly Easter and Christmas um there are a lot of people that don't go to church regularly uh throughout the year uh but Christmas and Easter most churches uh do see an influx of people and so it's typically during those times that we will have people out there uh helping out okay thank you sure thank you so Charlie are we good with the uh traffic yeah and the last uh comment I had was they showed site triangles for the site driveway and you know there's obviously vegetation along the frontage there I would just have a recommendation that like anything along the frontage just be manicure just to you know for pedestrian safety you know and everything like that just make sure we have clear line of sight you know it's good showing on a plan but once you actually see the canopy and things like that you know just want to clean it up if we can okay great well members yeah I have a general question this might be for the professionals uh what about no parking signs on Oakland should there be is that something that we can ask for or is there because I don't know existing if there are any no parkings I don't know of any no parking signs on Oakland but I believe if I'm not mistaken and I'm sorry if I'm hijacking your question there is no real shoulder in that section so people would be parking on the grass there's a big shoulder up the street um actually directly behind my house but that section of Oakland doesn't really have any anywhere uh somebody sayane would park a car yes if I'm not mistaken no you're right so and then you know regulating park it in a public RightWay that is not at the you know discretion of the board that's the governing body that regulates that we could certainly if the board ask for every really make a recommendation or have Eileen make a recommendation to the governing body to consider putting no stopping or standing along the frontage you know yeah I I think I would like to see that just you know at this way we at least you know covered everything you have another one yeah as I'm looking at this and we're talking about the signage coming off at 195 I'm kind of thinking because of some of the traffic that we get going off Maxum that it we might have to maybe put something past i' I forget whose house that is but past there um that is going to forward maybe just a basic sign noting pedestrian Crossing or something on that side too oh I would recommend in both directions yeah absolutely yeah mutc gives guidance for the placement of signs at the Crossing advanced warning signs based off the speed limits the characteristic of the road they can provide as a condition approval an exhibit you know plan demonstrating compliance with mutcd right and also to add to that um so uh and the board planner uh recommending or requiring as a condition of approval a q plan off inside the property that's something we're able to to provide upon the boards yeah absolutely I mean just looking at the site plan as it's designed there's a lot of potential for on-site circulation so I'm sure we can come up with an appropriate plan thank Mr chair yes sir um I noticed around Town well one school in particular and I don't don't remember the name but it's on Aldridge um heading towards Jackson Aldridge School school um there's a sign and it's when when flashing speed limit is is that when children are present yeah I mean thinking is that's a possibility that's different from I know I think that's a definitely a different standard okay I have a question Mr chair if you were all done yeah Jen what is your recommendation on where the um crosswalk should go cuz I agree with you that denella creeps up really fast no one does 45 on oen and it's going to come where you're right A lot of people are going to be in Jeopardy but I just wanted some clarification on your position I think I agree with the applicant that even though it's obviously not in an ideal situation preferred to have a midblock crosswalk doing it at their driveway gives you at least a little I mean the driveway comes up quickly as well but it gives you a little bit you got a little extra car exactly I just wanted some clarification thank you yeah and then with all the signage and stuff too that'll help yeah but no one does 45 and everybody comes over that bridge quick I drive that road 30 times a day back and forth to Little League football whatever and uh it's tough Charlie we're good sir thank you I have no more questions thank you yeah thank you hi my next witness is the architect uh Todd philippy [Applause] thank I think we have some slides that those be sh on okay just morning do you swear from the testimony you're about to give this matters the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do state and spell your name for the record please OD gpy p i l l i PP I thank you okay and give your qualifications yes thank you um Mr filippia whom are you employed my company is church Architects and LLC based in Pennsylvania okay can you describe your profession please yeah I'm a registered architect specialing in the design of churches um Church facilities and related Ministries have been doing this for 25 years licensed in the state of New Jersey since 1998 licensed as an architect since 1987 uh licensed currently in multiple States where'd you go to school sir Temple University got it we accept your credentials thank you thank you uh Mr philippy uh did you prepare the architectural plans uh for the applicant the were original plans in April 21 and then revised on September 19 2023 uh yes my company provided uh prepared those plans under my direct supervision okay and have you reviewed the uh board engineer and the plan 's uh letters um concerning uh their comments to the application yes I have okay and uh you can just describe I think you submitted some additional slides uh just describe of the the architectural plans the the basic outlay uh before we go into more specific questions okay maybe um if we can back up to the first slide not this one but the ones before that that had the floor plan that was submitted as part of the original planning package that that first time there you go yes this one here so we were uh contacted by the church to provide the kinds of support and ancillary facilities that most churches of this size and this attendance would have currently their Lobby is very small if you imagine in 380 seats and people coming in and out you can see the area that's shaded in is the existing building and they also have minimal offices and classrooms that would typically go along with a Congregation of this size the proposed plan provides a very enlarged Lobby so there's plenty of queuing and hangout space for people a large multi-purpose room that would be used for church Banquets recreational activities a kitchen to be able to support Banquets and then additional classrooms and expanded office areas so this is the basic concept that we were working under we have spreadsheets that give proportions of classrooms and other spaces that should relate to a Congregation of certain size and that's spreadsheet was used to come up with the sizes of the spaces that are shown in the plan for the proposed expansion can I just interject and and I don't mean to cut you off I don't know that anyone really has an issue with like the floor plan I think the comments in the letters have to do with the facade yes I wanted to explain the context of the expansion before going into the images right so is there anything further just to give some back background or context before um U the board planners questions concerning the facade okay you go so now um if we could go to the images and if you can go to the first one so this is an aerial view of the computer model of the design the design which is in the elevation views that you have received and we showed this view first of all to Prov the context of the expansion with the existing building the existing building being on the right side there that high structure there that's correct and you'll notice in this view there is no steeple on the existing building as exists now because part of our proposal architecturally is to remove that we are changing the style the architectural style of this building to something that is more contemporary and more inviting than the building that was originally construed constructed also point out that the materials that we're proposing the brick the synthetic stuckos are designed to blend in with the existing material we're proposing to use the same colors the same brick uh for the dominant features of the building you can show the next next line so this view shows the existing church building on the right side with the brick underneath the stucco above and then immediately in front of that is the beginning of the addition that all brick section there that's right you can move to the next slide on this slide we have a large glass area which is the lobby that is inside of that and in lie of the previous steeple what we've done is we've elevated the center entrance way making that all glass and it put a cross on top of it the total structure including the cross is beneath the required uh 50ft limitation and then on the left side of that symmetrically is another brick section of the building so the two of them work together and then in the background up high is where the multi-purpose building is we go to the next slide this would be the new facade that would be facing Oak Glen Road and you can see that the way we have broken that up with the brick work the stucco the brick work a canopy over the center the roof is broken up by that Center section as well and you can go to the next slide so this is the we're going to call it more the Utility side of the building now one thing that does not appear in here is the extensive Landscaping that is included in the civil engineering plans the wall that's more blank on the left side there that is where the kitchen is so we're having equipment in there we have one window in there that will let some natural light in but for the most part if you know how a kind of commercial style kitchen works there's equipment all along both walls so that's one of the facades that we have a problem with so we require facade treatment around all four sides irrespective listen we've been doing warehouses here for about four years so I've heard it all that wall is going to need additional treatment I'm not asking you to bump it in and out you're still going to need a waiver but it is going to have to have a treatment like a water table and there's going to have to be vertical Brakes in the building whether it's texture or color I'm not saying the interior functionality the building is going to be changed but the exterior is going to have to comply better with our or with our requirements than that and there's other facades as well that are blank similarly and I I'm not asking you to do the three we require a three-foot bump out right we actually if you go out of this building the Auto Zone over here has bump outs they're fake because it doesn't work for their interior space so I understand the functionality on what's on the other side of the wall what I'm telling you is that our requirements are what our requirements are and there's going to have to be additional architectural treatment to those walls that are blank to better keep with the spirit of our architectural requirements as we have required every other user that has come to both this board and the planning board so it's this facade and what is that facade what was that other one the East Elevation is very blank as well and that's going to have to get some additional treatment you're still going to need the waiver but that is how the board has been handling these facad because we're not looking to to interfere with the internal functionality but the external the view of the external facade is going to have to be treated a little bit more so any um things we can do can we modify that to comply with the uh board planers recommendations I mean typically what happens is that the board gives me the ability to to to work with the applicant during resolution compliance to come up with a plan that we that that is in keeping with the intent of our ordinances so it would be a condition to work in uh condition of compliance to come up with a plan correct that's agreeable both the planner and work with the archit absolutely yep okay does the applicant agree to that is that um is that can that be done or is it functional uh can can it be done yes I mean there can be some things that are are changed in these two little areas really as far as that goes um but you know I understand the intent of ordinances like this which we've come across before generally of one of two purposes one is if it's in the Village Center to that is not how how works I'm just going to inter respectfully not for nothing no because you're trying to make it like we're trying to impose something on you that we don't impose on every application here in town regardless of the function when I get Warehouse users to comply with this requirement you know where their functionality is the racking system on the inside people aren't even on the on the loading dock side we're requiring them to comply and as you also stated they're small sections I I would respectfully require that as a request that the board required as a condition of any approval there's no building that we have had here in town that hasn't come back to the table with something that is in keeping with the intent regardless of how di Minimus it is Sir is it the applicant willing to comply with it again yes we will comply and work that and I appreciate the board plan is concerned I I would just like um Mr philippy to finish um and we understand um and I've been before how uh before how it works and the Ori and the requirements and we're seeking these requirements but I just want to make sure that we um Mr philby can finish as to make sure we can have this functionally done because I would never want to prom anything that we can't do so Jen just those two areas from what I can tell based on the plans that I've reviewed yes there's a couple of blank facades that need a little bit of love and I'll be happy to work with his office to come up with something that is not overly I listen I'm not trying to break the bank here but something that is overly that will help to break up that blank facade that will keep be in keeping with the intent of our ordinance as we have with every other application thank you so just to ask would that be reasonable we can work together and try to come up with my intention was simply to Define what parts of the building we were talking about because if you read the ordinance from a strict standpoint it's very prescriptive in the architecture there is not a lot of leeway in it it requires certain design elements that are not expressed in the facade of this building which is why I said you still need the waiver and we'll work with you to come up with a design that keeps with the intent but you still need to seek the waiver right uh we would agree would agree with that I mean we we just didn't want to be have something that's impossible we work together then that would be agreeable to the thank you I have never had an applicant have to come back here to fight about the architecture got it again we're talking about two small areas so hopefully that can be I believe that can be worked out okay right um I'm sorry I didn't know if you were um where you were or if you wer no no the only other point that I was going to make is that it is the other place I've encountered it is in areas where you want to prevent the warehouse appearance and so I I understand that and I respect that and we certainly don't want to create anything that looks like a warehouse no I'm not I'm not saying it looks like a warehouse but I'm saying that we've dealt with warehouses so I just want to be clear with the refer yes yes and I just want to be sure and and maybe the the board planner can can uh also uh comment I just want to review the planner letter if we start with um I think it's 4H uh one I just want to go through each of the coordinate sections uh we're talking about the architectural articulated base course and Cornus uh the architectural treatment of the additional and the maintenance building you just described I think talking about the maintenance building to be consistent with the house of worship right and and I think we had a conversation about that with right and we did add a base course around the building uh the proposed Maintenance building that is seen in the back from this aerial view uh that's the only place that really you can see it from and we have modified that designed to include a brick base and some windows to break that building up and I thought that was acceptable yeah I I mean I I don't take exception to the look of the building I think it looks fantastic I think there's little tweaks that have to be made I don't know that we need to belabor the architecture anymore you do need waiver from the section which happens very frequently and the board has accepted you know the ability for us to work it out as a resolution compliance item and then once I sign off on it then generally we're done with it okay so yeah we would make sure we do that and we can meet those those sections uh requested by the board plan um do you have anything further to add besides your testimony presented well I guess the one thing I did want to take the Liberty to speak to and this is with my experience having designed and planned hundreds of church facilities around the country and also having spoken and taught at Church conferences related to church facility design we have certain standards that we use for parking that are generally more severe than the ordinances that come into play in most municip alties parking we always based on the worship seating capacity because that's the driver for the parking and we recommend for a church that is in multiple services that their minimum ratio be one parking space for every two seats in worship so in this situation 266 spaces would accommodate over 500 people into Services because one of the things that we found is that if people can't park and park conveniently they will not come and that the majority of growth that will occur in a church will be for families with young children so if they cannot park conveniently to be able to get into the building and get their children in they will not come that's just the way that it works out and so in my opinion having designed as many facilities as I have I believe that 266 is more than adequate for a worship space with 380 seats in it thank you Mr pH share that thank you Charlie we're good yeah the only comment I have is any roof mounted haac they're going to be on flat roofs and be screened so they're not if you look at the bricked areas with the flat roof that's what we're planning on concealing equipment behind there and then also uh for the multi-purpose building itself we're planning to conceal it behind the raised section that's in the center gotcha that's all I have we're good yeah okay thank you sir all right thank you you and then our our last witness is our planner Alex mcle yes and I think we have uh in addition to what we've submitted we have actually handouts um just some pictures of the area would you pass them over to I want you just and and let's get you sworn in and let's get him sworn I'm sorry let's get him sworn in yeah get SW do you swear from the test when you're about to give them this matters the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do and just uh State and spell your name for the record please yes Alexander mle uh last name is m c c l e a n thank you okay and maybe just circulate the handouts first and then we can start with the we we to Mark yeah so the the thumb drive that you gave us that was were new as well right those were exhibits from the um that would be not from the architect so that and I think at the prior hearing you had an A1 and an A2 yeah a A1 was the um just GNA go through okay sorry let me just get my notes Here A1 was the engineering plan yeah it was an aerial I think at the first an aerial I think was A1 arrows A1 engineering A2 so let's make the thumb drive A3 and this can be sorry oh whatever so start start so 20 so what we're saying is one will be 28 two would be 29 three would be 30 and 31 so there was an8 was [Applause] an go through a testimony quickly okay the points31 okay thank [Applause] you okay uh just let me know when we're ready and we'll proceed sir can we have your planner credentials please yes um Mr McLean by whom are you employed um I'm employed by U I'm associate John McDon Associates okay and are you a licensed um planner yes okay in the state of New Jersey yes okay you're also a aicp certified planner I am yes okay and you uh described your uh qualifications as such appearing before boards and um presenting for uh applications before boards sure uh yes I hold a Masters in City and Regional planning from R University and I have uh testified for boards throughout the state okay we'll accept your credential sir thank you and um can you just provide a quick summary from a plan perspective as to this application and what the applicant's seeking uh just a short summary on on that okay yes um yes so the applicant as I understand and the project is to uh construct a one-story Edition to the church um construct a one-story Maintenance building and with in addition to related site improvements yes and what are the uh the variances here and Zoning considerations uh actually let me back up um what what are the variance here variances that the applicant uh is seeking here today uh yes so the applicant is seeking um D3 conditional use relief uh for the parking for the parking count which requires um 339 spaces while while the applicant is proposing 266 uh and as understood the property the proposed Supply um uh is expected to meet uh actual demand because the activities of the site um site's current use has a non-coincidental Peaks uh where the current parking requirement under the ordinance is based on all activities in the aggregate uh Peak usage which is worship is not changing since the applicant is not seeking to increase the number of seats in the church from uh the 308 um the applicant is also seeking uh bulk variance relief sea relief for a detention Basin and the front buffer which is not permitted applicant is is ensuring that it would be reasonably located in a low in a naturally low point we're also seeking both Guardian relief for um a monument sign where four feet is permitted and 40 I mean sorry where four square feet is permitted and 40 square feet is proposed uh the intent is for a clear safe and effective means of site identification uh applicant is also seeking design waivers related to Landscaping lighting location of trees greater than 4T in diameter uh sidewalks on site tree replacement articulation um and articulation of roof line offsets uh among others and you have reviewed the uh board planers uh March 8th 2024 um letter uh before his application today uh yes I have report and can you go over and I'll let you um expanding this DD both the pro positive criteria uh versus the any negative criteria of the application right so um I believe that the the benefits of this application would substantially out weigh any detriment uh by advancing the goals uh established in the U Town's master master plan um the board planner uh pointed out the uh preservation of rurals and agricultural uses and the preservation of rural character uh you know this is a the board panel also identify the uh environmental constraints on the site it's surrounded by uh wetlands and wooded area uh to the north of the property um as you can see in the exhibits I which I didn't get a chance to uh go over um should we pause go or go over it yeah go over your exhibit yes yeah okay I I mean I guess is everyone all familiar I guess with it or do we no you you can just briefly explain you've handed them out as 831 go over each page so yeah I'll just quickly go over it so yeah just for the for the sake of kind of illustrating what I'm talking about here uh so uh the first uh page is is just a view of the to the north uh looking toward uh 195 so you can see the uh uh properties on the the south side of the property looking North uh just the wooded area in the surrounding area got the residential um uses to across Oakland Road uh second page quickly is looking South again uh large wooded area uh residential uses to the South into uh right there to the West uh again another area image you to see again uh how kind of um kind of um hidden uh the the the site because of the uh the Landscaping in the surrounding area this is the third page on The View looking Northeast and again this is just AR view of the front of the property looking looking uh the last pages is a view of the shop a view of the existing facility from open okay thank you Mr chair if you'd like me to jump in and help out here I'd be more than happy to do so the only reason they're here tonight is because they don't meet the requisite parking this is a conditional use in the zone if they met all the conditions it'd be a permitted use and we'd be at the planning board they wouldn't even be here and I think there was enough testimony prevent presented by the traffic engineer the operations about how the sit's functioning as well as the architect to demonstrate that while yes the way our Ordinance Works is that every use within the building it's a cumulative parking requirement but the way that this site operates is that they're all those all those locations are not functioning at the same time um the otherwise if they complied with the parking as I said they would not even be here so I think the positive of the benefit of the community the amenities that they're providing to their congregation outweigh the detriment of they still have a very significant amount of parking in the 260 range so and there's been testimony provided by prior witnesses that would justify that as more than adequate and that there won't be overflow that falls out onto Oakland Road so that the benefit of what they're providing here the improvements that they're making the architecture which I think is fantastic the desirable visual environment I think all those things there's in my opinion no it's not no detriment there's no substantial detriment I think we've taken great care in the crosswalk the signage the queuing all the other things that we've asked for as part of this application to ensure that it's going to be safe safely operating so I think the benefit of the parking deviation outweighs the detriment the second issue is the signage right so four square feet not very visible as we've already discussed the speed on Oakland Road the geometry of the road people especially coming from the south at a high rate of speed over that overpass I think it's essential that the vi the side be visible for safe circulation and traffic so that people will know in advance especially if they're new or they're coming for something like a some kind of communion or some kind of event where they're not used to coming to the site they need to be able to see the site in advance of the driveway so that their the traffic operates safely so in my opinion and I don't need needs don't necessarily think that the Board needs to hear anything more on the waivers we've gone through all the waivers through the testimony so in my professional opinion I think that the benefit of granting the application and the deviation for the parking and the signage outweighs any detriment I honestly don't see any detriment they've comp they've agreed to comply with everything we've asked so my professional opinion I think the site has met its burden thank you welcome thank you questions thank you board members any qu any questions not my first one sec SEC all right so one question at a time oh I'm sorry go ahead I don't have a question I was just gonna make a comment so go ahead no comment comment I actually feel like the building will kind of help slow things down as people come through so I think that's an added positive to this as well so because it does stand out really really wonderfully okay um so if there's no other questions for the planner um we're going to open it up to public but I'd like to take five before we do so that okay thank you all right thank you e board will now take a 5 minute break and reconvene at 8:40 p.m. hi lean we're going to um open back up the meeting the board will now reconvene uh sir thank you uh before the board uh deliberates on this just based upon some testimony here uh I would like just quickly the pleasure of the board there was an uh issue about or a question about if there were multiple services having to come back to the board I think it would just be helpful if Reverend ask and can just explain uh the situation of the congregation the situation what would entail multiple Services obviously just to get down the record and answer any of the board's questions the planers questions on that and and then we'll just finish from there so if I can just have five or 10 minutes to recall Reverend Addison on that that's fine sir go ahead thank you so uh so Reverend um you heard the um board planers comments about um uh having multiple Services needing to come back uh from the board okay and you um heard the board planner said that you're um any condition if you're going to do multiple Services the condition would be to come back to the board can you just explain to the board so we all understand the uh what would entail multiple Services why would you be doing that um and then how you would be operating that I think it's a little one clear just seeing multiple services like would that be in the afternoon the second service um just Clarity so we can just be on the same page there sure thank you sure so uh prior to co we were operating um two worship services on a Sunday and the first worship service would be from uh 9 to 10:00 a.m. and then we would have an hour turnover for people to be able to get their children out of the nursery and Sunday school get in their cars depart and then the second service would be at 11:00 a.m. and then new people would come and then uh they would finish and then they would leave and so there is an EV and flow of the way that the church operates we don't get to decide if the church grows or declines it's not like a normal business that decides they're going to invest in a new product and they need space for pallets and wrecks I don't get to decide that if church is good and it meets the needs of uh the community people come and if it doesn't then people don't come that's why churches close down and some Churches expand uh for whatever reason and so um what we would like to propose is to be able to have multiple Services if needed without having to come back to the board and those services not to exceed the current amount of seats that we have and parking spaces that we have so I take 380 seats and then have a turnover period for those people to be able to leave and then new people to be able to come so so re Reverend yes sir with the Improvement that you're looking to accomplish with coffee kitchen services and so forth the the thought process now changes right because if you have a service people are going to linger and stay stay behind and then you have another one coming in on top of that and I think that's kind of you know what we're thinking with regards to you know the E and flow of of personnel coming and going right the egress Ingress um you know Jen I I my that that testimony does not change my prior opinion I think you're going to have people lingering with these new amenities I think if this church was located in a different location there are some and and keep in mind that this is not the only house of worship that this board has seen over the years we've seen many in various denominations we have another one coming up not that long that's down in um near Walmart and so at the end of the day currently the the request was when it was made and it was reviewed it was one service I think if they go to two Services they need to come back and explain it and I honestly I don't think an hour is enough time between Services because I do think you're going to have overlap and they're here because they don't comply with the parking so I just feel like and there's nowhere to overflow because you're not going to have cars out on Oakland Road so you know if the if the applicant would like to really in explore this where we have the ability to take a look look at maybe an updated traffic study and all those different things for these additional Services when the the comment was we were looking at like 9:15 to 105 as a predominant traffic generator for this if there's another service that's going to change um and there is the ability there is the potential for overflow if the applicant wants to request an adjournment and work this out between now and coming back with Charlie and myself that's totally fine but if they want an action tonight I would recommend one service with a condition if they want multiple Services they have to come back I just think there's too many open-ended questions that could be problematic and it puts a lot of onus on John's office as opposed to knowing clearly what exactly it is we're approving uh sir my concern if I may with coming back are what of the parameters for your approval and do those parameters if they are not clear is it just then become opin which then infringes on our religious rights to worship so respectfully it's not random we have ordinances in place you're not a permitted use you're a conditional use you don't comply with those conditions so any additional operations need to be evaluated pursuant to those conditions it may come back and we say an hour between probably is in this location may or may not be enough time maybe two hours is the appropriate time we would have to talk to to see from the traffic engineer what the traffic conditions on the road are at that that location if the levels of service remain the same because you do need to demonstrate no negative impact or no substantial negative impact associated with the use fa that's we're not trying to limit their utilization of the property but we need to make sure that what they're asking for is consistent with our ordinance requirements and that what they've asked for initially in this particular instance and this is the second time they've been here is one service so to change that or to you know and I I will tell you and I think I've said this offline you know I I'm involved in litigation in another Community for a school who wanted flexibility and we were in front of the judge and the judge says no the board has a right to know exactly what it is they're approving so I'm not saying they won't approve it but if the parameters change you come back we discuss it with the board and at that point in time any open conditions or any conditions ass with any approval get evaluated to determine whether or not they've been complied with and the change of circumstances evaluated consistent with the parameters that are in place um at the time of that application so you know it's not random it's not arbitrary it's not opinion There are rules that the that the town has that we abide by and so that's what would happen in that instance it wouldn't be a full-blown re review of the site plan it would be this condition you know at some point you could come back and ask relief of that condition it doesn't have to be a full-blown modification of a use variance there are Provisions that could take place you know and that there's an explanation as to what's happening and then the board gets to evaluate whether or not it's appropriate to remove the condition that's happened in many instances here as well could you explain to me what that means rele no no just give me five can I can have just two minutes hold on I'm sorry okay yeah sure this is the ocean and then there's undercurrent we have to look Safety and Security is the most right that's and that's the issue because we're adding the when you add the amenities typ typically you have a lunch here's the other services not necessarily what if you have multiple denomination Services multiple problem trff we have two Serv I go to a church and 10 yeah I go I go n didn't two hours you can have this one too and I'll um no okay I'll okay sir yes uh yeah I did speak with Reverend Asen uh we would um uh be willing to accept the conditions of the board planner that if we had um to uh request any additional services that we would come back to the board with an application uh for that so we would we would be agreeable with the recommendations of the board plan as to service okay thank you any further questions for Reverend here okay you can go back thank we're good thank I have no further testimony thank you we want to open it up to public yeah I'll make a motion open the public second okay IA the board will now be open to the public uh if you wish to State something please come up and and state your name and your address thank you okay we I don't see anybody coming up can we close the public motion to close take second all in favor I all right we're closed the board will now be closed to the public sir yes summation thank you I just be brief um I would just as as the board planner said um presented an application with a lot of different professionals provide a det a detailed statement of operations and as to our one use variance for the parking uh although we don't meet the requirement we've shown through testimony that it's the operations are not all at the same time that the parking uh will not be exceeded that um the positive criteria we um substantially outweigh the negative criteria obviously we would satisfy all conditions uh with um if there's any additional services to come back uh hopefully in a Qui quick fashion before the board with with additional traffic studies for approval and also for the signage that's certainly important for safety issues other than that um I think we presented a an application that enhances the church the quality for the uh congregants um and nice architectural plan and we just respectfully request that the board Grant uh the applications with any conditions uh required by the board professionals and thank you I thank you for your time and the application thank you so what's the pleasure of the board Mr chairman members of the board um based on the testimony and I I think it's commendable that we have a church that's doing well which is a rare site nowadays but I'm happy to see it I think both of you did a very good job explaining what's going on I agree with the planner I thought the architectural was very well done and it's just a couple tweets to make it you know to our liking which I agree with the Planner on and my biggest concern was the safety I think it's been addressed in a good manner where I'm satisfied with it I do think that the governing body should make uh here our concerns that we want to make sure there's adequate signage and other than that um I wish you all the best and I make the motion to approve I second okay we have are you the second also I second yeah I don't think Miss scotson uh I think I am yeah I'm eligible yeah she's she's yeah but there's eight people so I need seven sorry my bad I'll second my bad all right so we have a motion and a second eena roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr Hughes I would just like to you know um bring up again the talking about the safety that uh Mr Mertens was talking about and having that crosswalk by the driveway uh as part of this with the signage of course and also the uh with the architect complying with with Jen's tweaks I'd like to vote Yes Mr merens yes Mr Rosco yes Mr Stan yes Mr Ryan yes and chairman seya you know there's a lot of improvement that's going to go on at this facility you know I hope that it's very joyful and Bountiful with weddings and other good deeds and services so I I wish you all the best and I vote Yes application is approved I would voted yeah thank you thank you guys congratulations thank you all the best oh boy all right Eileen when's the next uh May 13th May 13th all right mark your calendars we got a we got a we got a full gender then don't we may 13 okay may I have a motion to adjourn now make a motion to adjourn second I guess I'll second all in favor get in there I'm getting in there e we we are journ thank yous