e Haven got it heard e e e e good evening Welcome to our LPA meeting for May the 13th um it's always nice to have people in the audience we like people thank you uh first thing on the agenda is roll call Okay chyl C here Patrick Foley Tony Hammond here Susan rafan here Jan Ry here Lorie Von here and Deb Gillis here okay we have a COR thank you uh and we're all present that's always nice second thing is pledge uh Jim will you start us this evening I to the flag of the United States of America to The Republic thank you next on the agenda is additions or deletions emergency uh additions do we have anything from the board from staff okay we do need to make a a short announcement um Jennifer do you want me to inform everybody about John's on Zoom or do you want to do that you just did um our our lawyer this evening ended up with a a a a slight injury and so he will be on Zoom this evening with us he's not present in the room but he will be on Zoom with us and that would be John quick um okay next is General Public comment these are comments that are not subject matters on our agenda for this evening uh do I have any general public comment evening ladies and gentlemen um unfortunately I learned before this meeting that uh our planning director has filed a a hostile workplace complaint and I just uh am am really sorry that that had to happen happen and uh I would just say that uh uh every time I see Jennifer I see Tai Harris right with her and he being the previous well your mic went off and her being the present planning director I don't think that really uh aids to a a non-hostile environment among the the people who are observing it and at the last meeting um we had several items that you know Miss Mr Harris represents the you know plans and and he's in he's in that dep department but but he has uh I don't think a right to come up in the middle of a meeting and to use uh our planning director as a secretary and advisor during a meeting I don't think that's good and I think that is one of the reasons that there is hostility and it's not it's not uh uh anybody that I can point a finger at it's just not a good plan and a good posture and it does not show transparency does not show uh neutrality it shows Prejudice and and and bias and thank you very much who's next please state your name Joe wishm Plantation key I know there's been a lot of talk here in the past by The Village Council about disbanding all of you and taking over your responsibilities as the L PA I have stated many times uh at public comment in the meetings I do not think that's a good idea they don't even have time to get to the issues they're supposed to be getting to now it seems like I can't remember the last time anything has been on their agenda unless it was development or land issues what about the fills what about the park what about all the other things so I would implore you all to fight for your positions I think that you all do a good job and it also gives us the public an idea into what's coming up before it goes to council so we can do a little more research as well so I think youall have been doing a good job and I hope you continue fighting for your positions and make sure that the LPA stays separate from the council thank you here here thank you next any other general public comment one more time anybody on Zoom for general public comment I okay one more time in the in the room any other general public comment seeing none we'll move on uh we have a consent agenda this evening of our minutes from March the 11th do I have a motion I make a motion to approve the minutes a motion and a second second I got a first and a second blurry the yes T hman yes sh cson yes Patrick Foley yes Susan raelo yes Jean Ry yes and chair de Gillis yes motion passes 7 to zero thank you Now we move on to public hearings the first thing is tab a which is the one of the soldier uh properties it's for The Flume uh and in tab B is the um zoning change um I would request unless the applicant or any of the other members that we at least hear them together and then afterwards we vote separately on them any objection to that okay hearing none um I assume that John will read our titles yet is that right yep and sorry again for attending via Zoom I think some of you know that I have a uh had a serious ankle injury so I was not able to uh uh come down um so I apologize for that let me pull it up sorry I'm sorry in my packet I don't have the ordinance um [Music] can it's on the agenda yeah I don't have it in Civic Clerk or in the packet that was emailed around I don't have I'm just realizing I don't have the actual ordinance in this I'm sorry the title's on the agenda do you have a copy of the agenda let me see thank you devb yep um uh 6A is uh an ordinance of is Mara Village violence Florida considering the request of Tai Harris PA agent for so South LLC to amend The Village's future land use map from conservation to mixed use for the subject property located on low mumi key with real estate number 00 39448 d108 as legally described herein providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce B is an ordinance of is Village of violence Florida considering the request of Tai Harris PA agent for sojourn South LLC to amend the official zoning map from conservation to commercial fishing for the subject property located at lower M Ki key with real estate number 0039 4 480- 00108 as legally described herein providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce thank you so the reason this is in front of us we had this in front of us in January 1 I believe and we voted in January is there was a advertising glitch and we needed to hear it again and this is the first meeting that we've been able to um have everybody that needed to be present present and here to do this so we are rehearing this um Jennifer are you going to do a brief U um I can do a brief presentation I'd also like to ask that the uh presentation and materials from the January 11th uh LPA meeting be included into the record as well okay uh again this is a request from soj South LLC for a map Amendment and a zoning Amendment request the map amendment is to change from conservation to mixed juice designation and the zoning amendment is from conservation to commercial fish fishing designation the property is located at in lower mumbi um at real estate number 00 39448 d108 it's on vacant property so there is no address it's comprising of approximately 1.74 Acres it's historically been used for the storage of lobster traps the repair of lobster traps and docking facilities for commercial fishing fing vessels it's adjacent to the Lobster walk one of our only two remaining commercial fishing uses within the village the applicant is requesting that this amendment in support of it was requesting this amendment in support of returning the property to its zoning prior to Village in corporation the applicat representative Ty Harris has submitted a letter of intent detailing the map Amendment and the zoning Amendment request uh as the chair stated in January the LPA voted 6 to1 uh in favor with the recommendation to also create a sub area that limits the commercial fishing limits the area to commercial fishing and related activities um at this time I I'm going to pass on any additional uh report and let the um applicant representative can speak if anybody has any questions com forward we'll we'll go over it um Mr Harris good evening Tai Harris 110 Plantation Shores Drive uh Taver Florida you know the one that meets with Jennifer all the time right it is my job so other than that I won't I won't address Van's comments which I thought were a little below the belt let's move on to the subject please all right so pick up where we left off um 20 years ago this property was commercial fishing in the county there were discussions between then newly formed is marada and the owner of the property about about a purchase of the property uh to turn part of it into conservation and part of it into a park there was actually an offer made by my clients to the village for less than a million dollars to sell the entire parcel that did not happen but the villages desire to move forward with the zoning which they wanted did move forward and part of the property was rezoned to conservation and part of it was rezoned to uh public use Recreation a lawsuit in ensued the lawsuit addressed the northern part of the property and out of that lawsuit the settlement was six single family home sites which are currently now platted the building permits have been issued I think for four there's two left to go but that's what's going to happen on the North End of the parcel so the piece of property we're now talking about is the part of property that was not addressed of the lawsuit which sits between Lobster walk and the six platted Lots if you look at a map most of that property is underwater there's a very thin slice which is where the the crab traps are stored that is currently existing there now um so that kind of sets the stage reminds everybody where we were the applicant is now requesting to have its comp plan in zoning back so that it retains all the rights that come with commercial fishing not just uh what's there now and the reason that's important is that as you've heard testimony from people that are opposed to the project and you've heard me talk about it the shoreline there is being degraded by boats coming in and blowing out what we call hurricane holes and the damage is to such an extent that after the I brought the village biologist down there he says that it's going to take a d and Army Corps permit to actually restore the shoreline So the plan as I understand it is to create a dock that basically protects the shoreline keeps the mangroves in place and would be beyond that um and in order to do that you've got to have your zoning back you can't do it under conservation it's not allowed use I can put a cell tower I can put a boardwalk but I can't put a dock so that's a real problem um the other thing I've heard a lot about what people think is going to happen to this underwater property and the ownership of the North Parcel and the ownership of the Southern parcel are the same there's one one different owner on the southern piece and just if you step back for a minute and you put your rational brain in operation why would you take on jeopardized these these houses are going to go for 5 and a half million a piece why would you do anything on this piece of property we're talking about tonight that would jeopardize the value of your of your real asset which are the six lots to the north so it just doesn't make sense the things that I've heard that um they that are spun out there that would happen with this property there's just not the room for it and you don't want to do anything that would impact the value of the northern peace and I'll save a little time for rebuttal but I want to remind you something and this is for the attorneys uh in the audience and for those that aren't attorneys this may or may not be new there's a legal Theory called coming to the nuisance and it actually comes from the creation of uh affordable housing for retirees out in Arizona and so what what these developers would do is buy large cheap Parcels of land that just happen to be around usually cattle ranches and so they built quarter acre lots and built retirement communities and people would move in and then all of a sudden there' be an uproar that it smelled it was Dusty and noisy and they would sue the cattle ranch for being a nuisance and you know you judge scratched his head and the theory of coming to the nuisance was was born which was the judge says you don't have a remedy because the commercial use was there before you were there and that's exactly what's happening here that commercial use has been there much longer than any of the homes that uh the people that are going to complain about this this property have been in they came to the nuisance so there is a legal theory that kind of explains how the law takes a dim view of people that complain after they go into a piece property that has been used commercially much longer than they've they've been there and with that I will conclude my presentation and reserve a couple minutes for btal thank you thank you all right as a reminder um Jennifer said this but last time we voted 6 to1 to um create a a two accept the floam and recommend a sub area for it that's related to the commercial fishing just as a reminder um your your vote on the zoning was 7 to zero oh that's true the vot yes the the the the second one was seven to zero um is there any comments before we for the record I also believe though it's important to point out that was before any posting of any kind whatsoever was done on the property which allowed the um impacted residents and others at that area to come forward with their additional evidence and information which I found greatfully greatly helpful when we were supposed to rehear it again and then it got pulled from the agenda for another posting um but we have since gotten some more and I wanted to say thank you for that and by no means do I believe Deb's comments were intended to suggest that the panel was predisposed to this issue no no I just wanted to remind it because it's been since January since we've talked about this um if there's we can go two ways we can have comment here or we can go direct to public comment okay um on public yes no no go ahead quick question can you tell me when the property was last bought and sold um it's going to my computer's acting up so if you want to go to public comment I'll try to get into it and get back to you okay so uh on public comment I know we have two people on Zone on Zoom just one we have six people on Zoom six okay so uh there's a gentleman on Zoom Uh Kevin I forgot Kevin's name already he may have not there unless he pH in there now never mind uh okay so we'll open this up for a public comment um Anita you want to call a couple two three names in a row and then we'll okay we have van Caden have remain far van you want to come on up and Phil up FEI to start yes good evening I'm van Cadenhead um I'm not going to question the fact that that's been a fishing uh you know from my childhood that's always been fishing area and and we need uh to have uh areas that are open to commercial fishing and craw fishing and and boats and uh you know we shouldn't be adverse to having Improvement of the shoreline and docks that ought to be you know to preserve the shoreline ought to be uh U part of our our goal but uh you know it's it's right next to that parcel property right next to six5 million homes we got $30 million worth of new market rate construction going up right next to this right in that area so do you wonder why the people are a little upset and nervous that live around there I'm not um everything that's 35 ft is going to be in their way to see the ocean and and uh I I understand there's been a a court case and administrative relief has been granted and all that don't stop me I'm not okay just testing but uh as far as what uh Mr Harris said uh I have no problem with with uh allowing the the zoning change as long as it's understood before the zoning change comes into being that there's going to be no significant uh change in that property other than the zoning because I don't want to see a bunch of all of a sudden things crop up in that piece of property uh M you know mixed use uh from commercial to commercial fishing whatever there's a whole lot of things 's a many a slip Twix the cup and the lip in this one so I just want to make sure that it's down in writing somewhere that uh there's not going to be a radical change in the use of that property and it will still be open for commercial fishing lobster fishing and and the people that brought the bought the property should have done due diligence and realized that that they were buying into something which is historically um commercial fishing and lobstering and I hope that you will support that industry thank you next who was next I'm sorry her M so far and who's after her that's okay we'll get to um 105 Port Contessa and that's in Port Antigua um talk into the mic yeah pull it down a little I have to I'm too short short B yes that's it okay um I'm herina zavar 105 Court contestant that's in Port Antiga and I strongly oppose the zoning change I know that you can have possibly say okay we're we won't do this even though it's zoned differently everybody's heard that before they said we won't do this today but they probably will tomorrow I am concerned about the all the boat traffic coming into the canal and into the Lagoon we do have marine life in that con that Lagoon we have manatees we have all sorts of things that would only increase but my main concern is the environment the traffic and the noise that could possibly come from when you go to mixed use it could be a a bar it could be anything there and sound travels over that water we we hear the road noise now and I can't imagine what it would be like if they put a restaurant with a bar or a marina with a bar um and and it floods through there not to mention all of the debris that falls that has been blown in the Lagoon that goes into the people's property on elcapitan from when we have a hurricane and that would just be more added trash thank you thank you I'm going to in interject one thing in here I meant to say this before we started public comment the property is 620 ft long and the the section on the North End is less than the section on the south end that could have some ground and the section on the south end is about 55 ft wide Just for information okay who's next on the agenda uh now's your time okay who's next Miller suer lower mumbi um first of all I'm surprised that you've had since January and there's a promise of a sub area that would limit the use to just commercial fishing and that that hasn't been done by the applicant or the Village um they the fact that they want to go back to what it was when we were still with the county seems odd that it's all these years later a lot of people claim they didn't know they were never notified by The Village specifically about zoning changes in this case there was litigation by this property owner for another portion of his property but he never litigated on this never it was not part of the settlement agreement that created the six um V vacant well about to be built on homes to the north and um and the other thing about this property there's the 55 ft on the south and I don't know what you said about the north I don't have an exact measurement all of that wide area comes almost within inches is a village-owned property there is no no appreciable land for that area that they're claiming they want to improve it really would would be Village property that that they would have to infringe upon to build dockage there and so it it just seems that that's an area that's the most fragile area in all the Florida Keys when there's a hurricane tropical storm after tropical storm we see the news comes down from Miami on TV and they always stand right there on the highway there that's where the sand piles up two three four 5 feet deep and has to be removed gets removed to the right of way right there um so that there's access to the uh Lower Keys during a storm it it is just the the worst place to think of development there are photographs that someone sent me of the um aftermath of hurricane Ira where there was there were uh structures I guess they were trailers that blew from this property into the Cove and actually had enough air in them to float across Captain's Cove and sink in front of the condos on the other side of the Lagoon it's a really treacherous place I don't think that upzoning makes any sense whatsoever upzoning doesn't make sense anywhere in Alam marada we have traffic issues we have water issues we have environmental issues we have so many issues why in the world would anybody agree to upzone anything there is a use for the property it's a legal use it's it's what should be there commercial fishing it's always been there and and so I think I think that you're jeopardizing the commercial fishing industry if you change the zoning because there's more things that could happen there than happen now thank you very much who's next Karen Bron St um Karen Brinson I'm at 68 West Plaza Del Soul lower mumi which is mile marker 74.5 in the port Antigua subdivision um I have uh the L Lagoon property sometimes referred to as Captain's Cove should remain status quo as conservation sojourn is asking the status to be change changed to mix use please do not allow this change the concern is the Waterway leading into the port Antigua division this Waterway flows into and out of the Lagoon referred to as Captain's Cove as I mentioned in my letter that I sent on May 7th to the Village manager Mr Cole The Village Council and the LPA the port an UA Waterway gets plenty of traffic today I know you can't see it but this is our plat of Port Antigua and I in my letter I think I said there's 323 properties this property up here goes in Port Antigua in that Waterway and uses the first Canal all of us below this and this is the Sur property down here the Lagoon we have to use that Waterway that's I think I came up with about 400 boats that could be using that and that's not paddle boards kayaks anybody using that um propose attractions such as marinas a gas station convenience store Brew plub brew pub restaurants bars if allowed in that area there could be more boats on that Waterway with round thee clock dockage and usage would there be The Marine Patrol or other agency to Pro Patrol that Waterway we have boats now that do not follow the slow no wake entrance sign and those that may cause other boating violations whatever is allowed to be built on that strip of land referred to as Captain's Cove which is located on the Overseas Highway across from seots Beach must consider the turtle nesting area that requires the use of red light Also let's not forget that hurricane Arma washed out that same road yes it's been built up a little bit but do we know that that's not going to the what Irma did is not going to do it again if it is changed from conservation to mixed use and individuals drink and use their boats this is a hazardous situation we want everyone using that Waterway to be safe and I don't know if any body remembers but of 11 years ago tomorrow there was a boating accident using Port Antigua's uh Beach and it was sad it went through wheel ditch and I just don't want that to happen again I mean I want people to be safe if they drink how are how are we going to get people or if they have an accident we don't have any way to get to these people on the water so my concern is really that Waterway I know noise pollution and all that that's that's mixed in with it but I just ask that you really think carefully for the people that are in this area and I don't think you have I really don't so thank you very much thank you next Maria Newman I'm I'm short too we're going to do every other person tonight short tall tall short uh my name is Maria Newman I live on the Cove um actually you can see where my house is in the packet that Mr Harris submitted to the uh County uh it's a how you know a duplex right on there that's between the mangrove picture if you saw that and I also learned something today that I had moved into a nuisance neighborhood so kind an interesting fact um what I wanted to talk about today is is that the um the problem that I'm having with this is is is I live on this Cove I've been there for two years I've lived on Lower mumi for 14 years um I don't really have a problem with you know the boats I watch them we enjoy it it's the character um I'm glad that you know we are probably trying to make this more legal than it is illegal uh but the problem that I have is is that most of the literature that has been submitted really doesn't address you know the thing about residential property and that people who live in residential areas also have rights to peace and quiet um I think one of the mission statements of uh the ISA marada Villages you know um let's see to protect the the residents rights to quiet enjoyment of life I took that from a council communication on noise and enjoyment um my concern is that the way that it is now it is actually you know fairly peaceful they the the way that that is structured the boats come in there's just a certain number of boats and they really don't you know they come in early uh they do their business they work hard um they leave 5:30 6:00 and then there's peace and quiet in the evenings on that Cove um The Cove is changing rapidly um today I was hearing all the trucks that are dumping you know soil on the uh sojourn Northern property to put the um you know the um uh the houses on there the six houses so the noise has already started with the trucks and the B the houses are going to be 35 yes we are losing our beautiful view I mean I can see the Atlantic Ocean from my second floor and from my third floor my greatest concern is that in a residential area uh one would be subjected to mixed use and mixed use by the Sheep is almost anything anything from 35 ft affordable housing to um a brew pub I was reading here Marine reupholstery it can be anything that you want it to be if this is going to be commercial fishing then it should be commercial fishing the way that it is now okay right now it's illegal it's not conforming all right make it legal make it conform but don't go and give this you know now this you open this Pandora's Box for any single type of of uh construction that they could put there and build a a restaurant a pu it's just incompatible with residential living and thank you very much for your time thank you Maria next down West hi good evening my name is Adel West I live in Port Antigua um the gentleman said that the property has probably been there longer than anyone else has I wasn't going to speak today until he said that we built 47 years ago 1977 we were the first ones on our block and probably one of the first four in the whole community out of 330 houses we've seen a lot of change unfortunately some of it has not been good I don't like the way that some parts of this Village is going as far as if you've got the money let's just change everything and the hell with conservation we're running out of places for the manatees to be we see baby manatees in that um in the Captain's Cove and down that Main Canal we see sharks we also have all the Pelicans that come and that main canal and that's where they sleep at night with boats going up and down at all hours it's going to disrupt disrupt them also it's not quite Fair um to figure that once that we change it from conservation there was a reason for conservation okay there this is the Florida Keys okay I used to volunteer at Florida Bay forever and I'm not sure if you're familiar with that area or that um Association a g but what they're trying to do is save the bay without the bay we don't have fishing we don't have scuba diving we don't have anything and without that we may not even have water to drink so that means there's going to be no more Florida Keys I don't know about you but I want to stay here until I die okay I love it here we've been here for so long the problem is is if you change it to something else it could be open to anything they want once they get that mixed use plan and they don't really have to get anything else all they have to do is put in a permit to the village and if that's accepted then we're in trouble we are very quiet uh we're not Miami okay if we wanted to be in con you know congestion and noise and everything we'd live up in Miami we don't want that what we want to do here is we want to enjoy our life be be peaceful enjoy the water uh we have as it was already said we have the turtle nesting I mean they take great strives and trying to save our turtles because they don't you know we don't want them extinct but with crossing over the roads with the red lights with if they're going to do something else with it you're going to have Bright Lights nobody's going to want to sit there and red lights okay so I just want you to please please listen to us I know we don't have a lot of money okay we live down here um we we aren't probably the same as as that sojourn you know LLC I'm sure they're very rich um but I'm just trying to say please help us we have no other choice but to ask for help thank you very much thank you yes zoning uh zooming yes we have Kev Neil is back okay I am I coming through yes sir my name is cin O'Neal and I'm the president of the Bay Harbor Condominium Association you may recall that I was here two months ago and I spoke against the proposed resoning of the soj property I'm sorry that I'm not able to attend tonight in person because I'm out of town but I'm happy to do it via Zoom at the March meeting I told you that I was representing the Bay Harbor Condominium Association tonight not only am I representing 100% of the owners at Bay Harbor I'm also representing 397 at last count uh people that live and work and play in the community uh surrounding the property in question uh the uh planning committee and the council have all received a copy of the petition that we've been circulating and uh the last when I when I sent it to you we had 393 um signatures and now we have 397 and Counting so um it is a community issue the community is concerned is upset they feel betrayed they feel diminished that there's been no Outreach to the community from the village as part of the staff recommendation the local planning uh agency is an advisory committee to the council but your recommendations are never taken lightly and quite frankly I have never seen uh the council deviate from one of your recommendations to that end I'm speaking to you again tonight and would like to focus on just three points in hopes that you can weigh the concerns of almost 400 citizens of our community the first point is we see a violation of the principles for guiding development these are the principles that have been implemented by the village and this plan violates those principles because we are within the uh Florida Keys area of critical State concern and that's a Florida statute that calls for environmentally sound practices the Bay Harbor we've we've contacted a number of uh agencies and we're in the process of obtaining water samples and Analysis from the Waters of Captain's Cove which border the property but we don't have results back yet however if you talk to anybody in the area who spends at any time on the water there they can visually see pollutants including oil and gas slicks from the lobster boats and other commercial fishing Enterprises that are currently at that location and and the adjoining properties we recommend that the village do its own Environmental Research to determine if more commercial fishing will make the existing environmental concerns better or will it make it worse the second point is that there's been a failure of the village to follow its own future land use guidelines if you approve this request you're going to be in conflict with the Village's own guidelines because they state that flum amendments must be based on legitimate public purpose one of the factors listed is compatibility with property surrounding the site in any applicable neighborhood the guidelines end with one all-encompassing statements so this is this is the overarching guideline and and I'm going to quote this it says however in no event shall an amendment be approved which will result in an adverse community change now the comments that I submitted to you in writing don't have this next little section but as I was reading the application that that Ty Harris uh referred to in his comments I noticed that on page 17 of their 25 or 217 Page application that they are using that same language that same uh guideline as in support of their uh uh of their application except for it's got a little bit of Twisted logic their application states that there will be no adverse impact on the community because the existing use will not change that assumes that the existing use is not having an impact but they're saying that the zoning and the plum request will serve to protect the current use as provided for in the village of VI Mara's comprehensive plan we maintain that protecting this parts of a land in perpetuity is not in the village Village's comprehensive plan but that protecting the environment is a stated element in The Village's mission statement and the environment should take precedent over any commercial Venture again there are almost 400 people to date that are letting you know there will be adverse Community change and the third point is that the current legal non-conforming use is already allowed because this property is already being used for commercial fishing albeit a legal non-conforming use changing the zoning gives the owner nothing that the owner does not already have in other words if the owner already has the legal right to conduct commercial fishing at the site nothing additional is gained by changing the zoning on the contrary by keeping the con conservation zoning in place once commercial fishing operations cease or the property is abandoned for some reason in the future the land and the adjacent Waters can be reclaimed as conservation areas Kevin you need I'd like to end my remarks okay make it short please that I am representing a multitude of concerned citizens who are all extremely opposed to this zoning change our village is all too quickly changing and we must do our part to preserve its natural beauty denying this Plum change is a small thing but it sends an important message to everyone who lives works or visits our small piece of paradise want to thank you for your time and your interest but I do remain available at any time to answer any questions or give you any additional information if you would find it useful thank you thank you sir next Visa em hi Lisa emert from Port Antigua I live in the area there and I guess in general I don't I don't um I'm not for what's going on with the zoning changes and I think changing conservation to commercial in any place around here is not a good idea we are losing our precious fabulous Florida Keys money is getting in the way and it's obvious in anything we see like I said last a few months ago you can put your head in the water and look at our coal reefs and you don't have to be a scientist to see that there is much Devastation and dying going on and then the last eight months we have fish that are dying over 50 species of fish have been affected our our endangered sawfish are dying and we don't know why but I bet it has something to do with human impact that has not been found out yet how long will it take before we find out if we would have talked last year at this time would something like this ever be really happening in the Florida Keys oh no everything's fine I don't think business is usual should be going on anymore as far as changing zoning from conservation to Commercial and allowing more and more and more building going on yes everybody wants to be here it's a wonderful place thus far it's continues to look like a wonderful place but under the surface there's a lot of bad stuff going on that many of us probably don't even realize to this point scientists don't know what's happening it's a big deal to the spot that we're talking about has a I don't understand it all but it's been Z Zone conservation well definitely ever hasn't been treated as conservation at all that place I I mean I understand the commercial Lobster fishermen and stuff I know some of them there I know that needs to go on but really in the big picture it's not being treated a conservation at all you said two months ago when they did their report on en environmental um analysis on it well there's really not much there I mean there's some enganas there's nothing really like of um natural that should you know Florida native stuff well because it's not been treated like that it's not been preserved like that in how many years has this been going on so it stays the same I think it should be I think they should up the ante there and be forced The Village to force them to improve it to be a little bit more conscious about what's going on there that's besides the point I I guess but to make it even more is terrible and just in general let's really think about what's happening into our environment and not only the village should be held responsible for some of the decisions they make when County should be held accountable for some of the decisions that they're making and the State of Florida itself really should start thinking about our clean Waters our environment our fish the people who live here and our mission statement thank you thank you do I have anybody else no one no all right thank you so to wrap this up a lot of the speakers made my point for me first the property has never been conservation just because you put a color on a map does not make it so and what you do by doing that is you create you weaponize a zoning District or in this case a flume um to give people the false impression that this is a conservation lot this lot was created from the the dredging of of Captain's Cove and has never been conservation uh so let's just get that right out that it's never been conservation there's there's never been anybody scarifying it it was created by Phil um the reason that you have the request for The Flume to mix juice is because that is the corresponding Flume to commercial fishing there is no other Flume in our inventory of choices that you can ask for to correspond with commercial fishing and Commercial Fishing as of right is the only thing allowed under commercial fishing anything else that you would wish to do that you've heard has to come before you as a conditional use or major conditional use or minor conditional use the only thing you're allowed to do is commercial fishing so the only thing that we're going to do as of right with the rezoning is put a dock in and I thought it was kind of interesting because you know in January we heard a lot of comments about protecting the shoreline protecting the mangroves and once I made the statement that we would we would do that with a doc plan it's amazing how all those those comets uh evaporated in tonight's meeting so this just feels like a classic case of got Miners and um and going after a use that's been there longer than they have and with that I'll wrap it up thank you thank you Ty all right um you want you want to make your lovely announcement yeah I'm going to make a quick comment before we begin as a panel um since the meeting in January uh I've been contacted to be a professional consultant for the owner on some adjacent properties uh I took that information to the Village attorney and the our village planner I'm going to take their recommendation and recuse myself from I guess agenda item six items A and B thank you uh we will miss your comments but I wish we understand I just wanted to answer Mr Foley's question I just wanted to answer Mr Foley's question so um according to the Monroe County property appraiser the property was sold for $100,000 in 1983 um it then had three exchange um of a Dollar by warranty deeds one in 1995 one in 1997 and one in 1998 and then most recently um and a quick claim quit claim deed for $0 in 2022 so a new owner took possession of the property in 20122 is that correct on the on the mic isre a new owner took possession of the property in 2022 it was it was a quick claim deed for zero doar so I I don't know the the business practices but I'm assuming that that would have been the same owner just transferring corporations or llc's or something it's the same owner since 1983 Ty's right I just checked it myself too Patrick you and I checked with the the warranty deeds while I was researching here it lo lo like wasn't paying attention but that's what I was doing and it was you can see where the sojan property had an interest in it all along since 1983 okay um I I just wanted to do a a 30 second U education I guess before we move on so we have we're doing a flume and we're doing a zoning change The Flume is the mixed juice you have to have a flume and then inside that you must have a zoning District tonight the The Flume as Mr Harris said The Flume that they're presenting is the mixed juice but the controlling factor is the zoning District which in what they're requesting is commercial fishing but you can't have one without the other you have to have a zoning District inside a flume to operate okay to the board who who you want to start you have any comments I do but I want to wait a minute you want to wait a minute I do a minutes up sorry um who who wants somebody we need to move it along I'd like to start because I'd like to ask a couple questions of John quick please I want to make sure that I understand that the current use which is even though it's non-conforming which is legal commercial fishing and as I read section 30- 694 commercial fishing zoning District um is the purpose of which is to protect the commercial Fisheries in the village um the zoning district is established within a mixed use flum and the permitted uses are docking loading and unloading of commercial fishing vessels which currently exist manufacturer assembly repair maintenance and storage of commercial fishing traps and Nets and uses and structures accessory to the commercial fishing such as bait and fish tanks we all know that exist what is down there right now at least the last time I drove down there there was also Mr Lobster which also sold retail fish am I correct is that still there but I don't think that's on this property okay but that that's what I wanted to make sure of it's not on this piece of property um I'm having I'm looking at the map and I know that those tents I think it's further so basically those permitted uses are what we are making legal my question to Mr Quick is the U there are some uses reviewed listed in this that require a minor conditional use and is the which would be accessory wholesale and Retail fish in an office to count the money or whatever you have basically a docking and Commercial fishery supplier fuel sales which I don't see happening there because of other issues but is there a way to phrase this and recommend to council that any change other than the three listed require a major conditional use that would be my only question Mr Quick is that a possibility um it would require a change to the code in terms of what because our code currently allows for six different things although one of them has subcategories of various items under minor conditional uses so we couldn't do that um without a change to the code okay but currently the permitted uses anything else is going to require a minor conditional use chain which will bring it back in front of us and the council correct um a double check I I believe so I'll have to double check just to make sure that none of that has been delegated to the planning director but I believe that that um minor conditional look at the coder Jennifer knows off hand but I believe that comes back to you yes no minor conditional uses are administrative in nature and don't go before the C that's that's where I'm having the problems that that way we don't see a change I don't have a problem with the things that are already going on they're commercial retail Commercial Supplies fuel sales because I know they were down with they're further south um I just try none of that would come back before you because because you're correct that it says there there are no major conditional uses in this category that are permitted okay it's either permitted or permitted under minor conditional I'm trying to find a way to maintain the status quo without operating the opportunity without something major changing I mean certainly the applicant could if the applicant wanted to uh propose that but um it's it's not something we could require um without uh changing the code the special the special area comes about as close we can recommend a special area spe the concept of the special area we can do that we can recommend it that's my question all right that solves that question um the other question I have is I'm just making sure that I understand the map um it's just the blue area on the pretty picture we' got right it's a green well on my Mac it's green this this the one with it's got the Horseshoe shape yeah and then there's a little bit to the north and a little bit to the South um and then there's a small sliver that that runs along um ating up the uh the uh the village property okay that's all I want to make sure that I have the correct area all right thank you John while I have you uh or while we have your attention on the the settlement agreement was not attached in our materials or attached to the staff report um but I did pull it up and it appeared to me um that exhibit a actually does encompass this property and that the six homes were built where they were built because that is the place that had sufficient lot size to actually build a single family residence um but the settlement agreement it have you looked at the settlement agreement and have you had a survey done so that we know that this property was not actually part of that settlement agreement because it does appear to me that it was okay I haven't looked at that in a while and I wasn't asked to as as part of this but I'll see if I can pull it up quickly while we're talking here um if you go to the final order of dismissal I'll I'll tell you how to find it more easily um but then it is a very legal legal description which makes it more difficult because there's no pictures to it yeah yeah we would need we would likely need a surveyor to confirm what that legal description has a survey been submitted with this application no okay um so that's that's that's a concern that I have um irrespective of whether or not this property is included within exhibit a to the settlement agreement which is um John just for your edification um to to to make it more quickly to find in the Monroe County um Clerk's final order of dismissal of the 2004 lawsuit it's attached to the final order um perfect thank you so that's question number one that I have question number two is obviously soour had the ability to bring lawsuit for whatever zoning issues it felt was impeding it 24 years ago um I'm familiar with bringing one to the nuisance but I heard somebody say that uh they learned something tonight well you didn't ma'am because you've owned your home for 14 years and for 24 years when you bought your home you knew what the zoning was and could rely upon that just like anybody else can rely upon the zoning code that we currently have as well as The Flume so I take a little bit of issue with respect to that characterization um of it I also have issues with this particular application because we do have we do not have an illegal use we have a legal non-conforming use so if the intent is to keep going as we have been going there's no need to change anything because it is legal there is nothing illegal about a legal non-conforming use that's why the phrase legal is there um and and frankly I guess just because when I hear legal words boundi about I'm going to return in kind that I have concerns with respect to this particular property because of the lawsuit in particular and words that spring to my mind is waiver a stopple splitting causes of action latches statutes of limitations and the settlement agreement being relied upon and part of the public records um those I think are all issues that Happ not been dealt with in either the application or the staff report that but have severe implications by any zoning change so if if we could first figure that out John with a survey and I thought a survey may have already been submitted um given the status of it um I think that's that's step number [Applause] one um who else go ahead um earlier um the gentleman mentioned the uhu coming to the nuisance uh there's a it's also corollary uh type of concept in real estate law which is coming to the land and what that is essentially means is when a person takes possession of a piece of property make sure you speak into your mic when when a person takes possession of a piece of property that piece of property comes with a bundle of Rights possession is one right uh if it's if it's a residential you can build a house on it if it's commercial you can build a business on it uh and so that that property comes with that specific bundle of Rights there no more and no less and so that the owners of the property that's when you when you get a um when you go to clothes and you have 100 pages that contains every right that that property comes with and so uh the owners have been aware for 40 years that this property is is is um conservation property or you know since the village took over and and they have not changed or altered that on on any format so what I what I believe is that it seems that the the owners of the property are asking the village to uh make good for perhaps a a missed business decision at some other earlier time uh and because the bundle rates uh that comes with the when when when Property Owners come to the land uh is very specific and everybody knows that I I I think that the best route here is to continue with the current uh zoning and Flume and not change because the what they what they are what they understand as their rights to the property and what is currently going on both match you done yes I have a question related to this I thought I understood that the current owner bought the property in 1983 is that what we determined a few minutes ago yes and in 1983 that would have been County yes right yes and in the county that was um we don't have the exact wording but it was some kind of commercial fishing zoning whether 17 or 18 it was one of the commercial fishing zoning I forget the the exact numbers well but it was a commercial we we had that it was a commercial fishing zoning and the village came into existence in 1997 um unless I got the year wrong and that's when um shortly thereafter that's when it was changed to conservation so the current owner um is the one that had it originally commercial fishing but the point I thought that Patrick was making is we have a lot of residential land owners out there who have purchased their properties since 1997 and they come to their property with the same rights of knowing what their neighbors are zoned and relying Upon Our implementation of the land use map and the zoning map before while certainly zoning can change we're a little loose I think here with The Flume change in constantly it's not supposed to do that um but can be done not illegal to do it certainly um but everybody else has rights as well in the surrounding land it everybody does have rights and that's what this is that's why this makes it so difficult um I'll finish my comments I just wanted to sorry I didn't mean make sure that's okay we're we're civil here we we can do this um uh I just wanted to make sure that I understood myself that the owner was from 1983 and that the zoning change or The Flume change I'm sorry i' I actually misspoke it's The Flume change happened in I don't know 98 99 I don't know the exact year because I know it didn't happen the day that the village Incorporated it happened after that but um so Tony or Lori oneck sure to staff now in 1986 the county um code changed as well both Flume and the zoning which impacted a lot that happened to be the year we became a critical area Statewide cons I always get that phrase wrong but critical area of Statewide concern concern um and so the county itself undertook multiple amendments and designations from a lot of property um um for lack of a better word down zoned a lot of property proper pursuant to state regulations designated chunks of property as conservation in 1986 do we know what it if that occurred with respect to this property cuz we've heard 1983 I want to make sure we're understand in 1986 what occurred I don't believe it did because I believe I checked that for January but again my computer I'm sorry is acting up it keeps kicking me off the internet but once I get back on again I'll confirm because we have all that in I um files that I can access if I can get back online appreciate it Tony or Lori oh boy do I have a lot he's excited I can tell so I'm wearing multiple hats um in this one and I'm conflicted as I'll get out um Frank can you pull that photo up for me will that work we don't have any photos for this what's that we don't have a photo available for this yeah he does I just sent him one oh I'm sorry um oh it's over there too so this is the way van and I would remember this place this is Port Antiga we knew it is white Marlin Beach that was a spot where every high school kid went when you didn't want to be found out by anybody for anything that was 1960s um so as we talk about environment and protecting the environment shame on all of us because it's your pee and your poop that have contributed to the problems in LA manaki and we are inherited all the problems from from Miami and every place else so I agree with you 100% that we need to protect our environment big issue I'll defend that as a marine biology teacher from now until the day I die and I but I will not then at the same time say that these guys are wanting to put a dock in or use this property for their traps and to improve that piece of property is going to destroy our environment that's disingenuine on our part it truly is we're embellishing facts when we do that those lobstermen and traps were a part of this community before I think any of you came and built your homes back in this area as a kid van will tell you I remember seeing those traps here I remember uh those traps well you know into uh the shock of many people living down here we would pull our boats up and sell our Lobster to whomever wanted to buy them and it was completely legal and we could go out and Peg green turtles and have green turtles steak and uh I'm not in favor of doing that but obviously a lot of things have changed and a lot of information has changed over the years we can only work with what we know at the time that we have it if we're preserving the mangroves on either side of this property if we're protecting you can see the little area that we're talking about just in this picture right right in the middle of SE beats there on the other side on the Bayside um you know this issue should have been addressed in the ' 50s uh these canals were dug the places your houses are sitting on are all filled um that's why as we were talking I bought the 150 acres of Mangrove surrounding our property North End of alamada because I didn't want to lose any more Mangrove property uh but if we're talking about protecting the mangroves and we're protecting this area um you're probably going to see the quality of your environment improve don't hang on LPA issues that are supposed to be code enforcement issues not zoning issues and a lot of what's going on here is is Code Enforcement not zoning issue um the only way to move forward with this as I see because Lobster need to have a place to put their traps and have their boats we have I think three places left in the village um at South End of coming over Snake Creek or Taver Creek rather that area and then um the area that we're talking about now then there's one other spot I Cera green yeah so those are the spots that we have where we can have commercial fishing and commercial fishing locations um You probably asked most of the guys that are there most of the lobster most of the people are using this area they don't have a clue what the zoning is they don't care what the zoning is they just know what they need to do with their boats and their lobster and and and build their traps and put their traps back in the water um if they're doing something that's in violation folks in Port Antigua need to be on the phone and complaining code enforcement to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing in the area that is not an LPA issue the LPA issue is we look at what's been Rec recomended we look at the recommendation from the staff the staff has recommended that this be moved forward um I would like to see us control these situations rather than just have people randomly be in violation of code um and the other hat that I wear is I'm a guy that just launched into this by saying our zoning was incorrectly done we want it back to where it was originally and so I understand why people want their zoning putut back the way it was originally so I that's my opinions my comments we can come back to all of us sorry we can come back to everybody Lori do you want to say something I'm pretty much in favor of everything that Tony had to say I mean we we need to protect the commercial fishermen and um we have I just talked about the other day we only have 10 Parcels that are zoned appropriately for commercial fishing and Commercial Fishing is our number two industry in the Florida Keys follow behind tourism and hospitality mean I as a g as a graduate of leadership Monroe County class number eight a really long time ago and I know that they they continue to to express you know what our valuable Industries are what keeps the Florida Keys alive and it's tourism and hospitality and commercial fishing now commercial fishing not just in the sense of the commercial fishing that's caught in resale but it's also the commercial fishing that takes place when when you hire a fishing guide and you go out fishing we need to preserve that history and that culture within our community and we have very few Parcels in our in our municipality that allows for that and you know this commercial zoning district is just that it's very limited as what you can do everything else is going to need a minor conditional use change and that's going to take another set of set of eyes in order to you know approve a change so are we changing the environment that's already occurring in that community no I mean are you promised as a as as an owner in um in in um the condominium complex or any other little little tow houses across the Captain's Cove a view of the ocean no you're not because you're part parcel does not touch the Atlantic Ocean it touches Captain's Cove that's the view you're guaranteed you're not guaranteed a view of the ocean you paid for a view of Captain's Cove um you knew at some point there would be other other other Industries or other buildings built possibly and of course in the condum complexes there was already a huge number of parcels that were commercial fishing at the time when you when you bought your units so do I do I feel for you yes you know a lot of people also mentioned the fact that your property values are going to decline well that's not a proven fact that was an argument that was made when Publix was built that didn't occur all those homes back there in in Flamingo hammock their property value is increased we live in a community where we are a little little little more lenient and our property values are not affected by what's next door to us so I think we really need to preserve the community for the commercial fisherman I don't I don't know that I heard anybody disagree with that because that's the legal conforming use when we were here in January um and we didn't have and by the way I found this map extremely helpful so thank you all for for your submissions um of of Graphics as well as words um we talked about a a sub area or deed restrictions or voluntary restrictions of that sort which seem to me to be a way to ensure that the wholesale re FL Amendment change and everything that comes with the change to the commercial District was done so with the ex to solidify what this entire application was based upon as well as the staff reports recommendation to my understanding which was the existing use will not change if I read it once in the staff report in the application we read it a dozen times but we haven't seen that that any steps have been done from January to now to accomplish that which gives me again grave concern especially with an owner who did bring a lawsuit in 2004 who settled a lawsuit on advantagous terms um and will sell those properties and then he'll still own one property and his you know we've heard some about motivation well I could see the motivation be like okay I'm not going do anything for a while until I sell those properties for top dollar and then I'm going to do something else here happens all the time um and and justifiably I mean if property owner has that right but if we're going to do if we're doing this to conserve commercial fishing I didn't hear a single person out there say that they weren't in favor of that but I don't see that the proposal that's before us today does that we've had several months to get that in place and it wasn't done and that's a big concern for me question for you so that I understand because you just reated what I had been confused was trying to do in a confusing manner Mr Harris would your client consider putting that restriction on the property that we discussed so interesting you mentioned that um about a month ago vice mayor Mahoney called me up and asked me if I would meet with the neighbors who were complaining and were concerned about potential uses of the property Beyond commercial fishing and I agreed to attend a meeting um I was told that the neighbors did not want to meet and discuss uh what restrictions could be put on the property and so I haven't presented my clients with anything other than the commitment that they've already made to create a dock design that protects the shoreline and the mangroves if we had had that meeting maybe I would have something for you but the neighbors declined it was not me it was not my client so really it would be unfair to hold that against me at this point um maybe there will be a chance between LPA and and Village Council to have that meeting but they were the ones that rejected it it wasn't me um again I'll just say once again commercial fishing only allows one thing commercial fishing to be fair there was a request from this committee I think to look at it as well as well back in January before the the agenda item was noticed so um I feel that there's been a lot of um animus is not the word but there's been a lot of um attempt to shift responsibility to The Neighbors at tonight's meeting and I know that's the first time did you're now you're turning it around because the offer was made by the vice mayor they turned it down I did not so please don't try to turn that around the the reaction from behind you suggest perhaps otherwise okay okay let's keep this and regardless call the vice mayor and find out for your own okay so I just want to um to answer M rafanello question in in 1986 it was commercial fishing thank you okay so what was on the table um was for a flume change what is on the table and what was in January a flume change and to um uh mixed juuse and a zoning change to commercial fishing um I don't think that we requested them to do anything between then and now they actually thought that was in January they thought they they'd be at our February meeting and our March meeting and anyway now we're at May um so for them to not have done it I don't know what you would have wanted them to do for sure in changing their application is that what you're implying well I think the discussion was had that prior to them going to council that this would be done and because there was as you said that there would be uh the exploration of a sub zoning area that was our suggestion to council correct not to them okay that's fair but we're now with our suggestion 5 months down the road I understand that we are an advisor committee and the best we can do is make suggestions but I do hope that people listen to them um and take action on them I apologize if I misspoke and laying any particular blame but that is that that is always my hope and anticipation when we make a suggestion well yes um our suggestion was for Council to do that and if if the applicant wanted to change his his his presentation to council level you know that's that's up to them but our our recommendations were strictly to council I understand with with the understanding of of our background of what why we were recommending that and I understand that and I also understand that they would have had the ability to assuage a lot of concerns that have been expressed by this panel before tonight having not that special district having not done that I always have a little bit of a concern about motivation and intent so um Madam chair yes sir did you I had a chance to look over the the sojourn settlement um did you want me to to chime in on that or is that um is that not an issue uh that you all are considering right so um I was slightly confused that's a good question so uh were we saying that this lot the one lot that we're looking at was part of the six um lots that was in the settlement so it was really seven Lots in the settlement well know is it part of exhibit a legal description was the exact question I would just say from I can't say with certainty until because there's a legal description attached and and I'm not a surveyor and and you know I would need a surveyor based on the language of the the settlement it doesn't look like uh it does that it was part of that because it talks about a fluent of uh recreation in an open space and a zoning of recreational and that they were trying to get it to change uh to multif family which is the I believe is the history of those Parcels to the north but to Susan's point I can't state with 100% certainty um without having a survey or take a look at the legal description and map it out it's just based upon the language of the uh uh the recitations in in the settlement itself okay thank you thank you John so um I believe I believe that what Mr Harris has said is true that if if we're going to change it to commercial fishing the only uh floam that we have available to us is mixed use but we can recommend we we are only an advisory we can recommend we can suggest we can uh that we put in a sub area limiting the activity to exactly what's in the commercial fishing zoning district and we can limit it a step further to say only the permitted uses versus the minor conditional uses that are listed that the minor conditional uses uh eliminates um the single family that there's not enough ground on that lot unless they join it with something else and 56 ft or even if the other end is a little wider if you're talking um 75 ft that's not enough ground to build a house and make your setbacks and and um all the other things that you need to do to to build a house but we can limit it so it so at least you have the comfort of hearing it say no you can't build a house no you can't build a restaurant no you can't have a brew and and the other things that are listed in commercial fishing we can suggest that that doesn't mean the council will accept our recommendations and somebody said earlier that Council takes our word very seriously and accepts our recommendations all the time that's not true no I miss a meeting I I miss a lot of meetings so um but doesn't mean that we won't sit here and try to do what we think is best so I would suggest that uh to give excuse me to give Comfort to the neighborhood that we move ahead if and and I do believe it should be commercial fishing zoning District um I'm very comfortable with doing that that's what the other lots are just slightly to the South there is no space in between that's what it's been used for for decades now uh that's what it was in the county um I don't know the reasoning behind and I won't speculate that the village zoned it for their own personal use back when we did that I I won't I won't go down that path um but I would recommend that we move ahead with this and um do the mixed use with a special uh sub area that was the commercial fishing uses no more public comment sorry uh that was the commercial fishing uses and limited to the permitted uses which is the the three that Cheryl read earlier not ADM Cher may I make one suggestion in going sure the only other thing that makes sense in there is is that again would have to be the minor conditional use is a doc oh thank you sorry I would suggest that as along with the three permitted uses it might be necessary and proper to build a docking facility there because that does help protect because some of the boats are currently tying up in the mang Groves that are there and allowing dockage to be put along there would not be inappropriate to but there's already in permitted use is docking allowed so that the docking facility docking and docking facility that's use docking facility and docking are two different um uses and docking facility can have a lot more um associated with it and I boy I'm trying to remember this for sure but it can have U uh gas and other things so that's not a facil necessarily that just means you could have lights on it no I I think docking facility is more than that you got down here for fuel sales below it I know but a docking facility requires a lot more stuff I just want to make sure that they're able to have docks to unload the bo did you pull up a definition of docking facility let me see what we have do we have in the code I don't have access to you don't have a computer well before before we do anything with Docking you got to understand that they if they start to build a dock it's going to have to go through D I mean it's going to be that's going to be a major hurdle for them okay um and so but it's their request so it's on them um the restrictions I would put on it would be that it's used for commercial fishing we build a dock we do not touch the mangrove communities on either end in any way and that we have a regular inspection of the area to make sure the environment is maintained as it I would like to see the environment improved not decreased or diminished okay so at that point we eliminate any issue of the view being restricted or any commercial usage of it uh if we put that restriction in then I think we have limited what to what they want accomplished if if they're if for a second they were disguising this to say oh by the way we want to put a condo over on that corner no I'm not for that I'm for them being honest about what they say they want to do and that is have a spot for the commercial fishing industry right right so she's got a definition I got the definition that actually Susan found I'm going to read it so it says Dock and docky facility mean a fixed or floating structure built and used for landing birthing Andor moing of vessels or watercraft either temporarily or indefinitely docking facilities include but are not limited to Wares peers quaz slips basins posts cleats davits piles and any other structure or attachment there to the purpose of this chapter docks shall be not include water access walkways or water observation platforms defined Below in this subsection so back up to the last sentence what does it include what what walkways walkways like a like a an observation Pier oh that okay there yeah I don't want to go out and look at the Mani I want you to typ no right exactly and that would not eliminate finger Piers for tying up either which would facilitate just making sure that it's Dock and perhaps a finger Pier but not a viewing platform okay so either way we could we could leave it in we could leave it out I think we should leave it in because then it's clarifying that they can we're putting in a a dock uh their minor conditional use does have to have um it's administrative another it is an administrative but it does have another layer of review um are were you suggesting that we just add the docking facility in the what I suggested okay okay I can do that okay good um Madwoman no no more public comment you allowed Mr uh Ty to come up Mr Tai is the applicant and and add to sit down please sit down please sit down please well sit down please please don't argue with me van just sit down public comment is closed M Mr Harris as I understand was responding to questions uh from uh from the sit down it's always very unfair thank you all right uh back to the Das here please um so do we want any more conversation do I have a motion but we need to divide these and we need to do the flum separately from the zoning District so the flum must come first flums first ordinances the flum has to be first do you want me to do this Cheryl since why don't you try it and then we'll see where we okay I recommend uh I would make the motion to approve the mixed use designation with a special area that is um carved to include the commercial fishing zoning District permitted uses including or adding dock facilities to it did I get that worded right yeah I'll second do you want me to read it or say it again hello so start again so I would recommend the mixed use Flume I would I would uh say that we approve the mixed use with a sub area that is carved out to read uh very similar to the commercial fishing zoning District the permitted uses the three permitted uses but also include the docking facility did I say that clear enough this time y I would like to include protecting the mangrove communities in that area on either side which is already protected but just as we push this forward because the council's going to have to make this decision anyway right and and excluding the other uses yeah excluding excluding the the things that were under minor conditional uses no excluding the rest of what was we're in the flum yeah we're the we're in the FL so my understanding of of what you've moved is to make a subcategory of a flum which has the same permitted uses only of the zoning District plus the docket but but to the exclusion of the other mixed use I'm sorry if I need to state that I thought that came without saying thank you okay so the phrase exclusion of other uses yes okay so I add that to my motion and we're adding um uh Mangrove and uh protection Mangrove protection it's good enough environmental proper Environmental Protection yeah is that a Mr Quick sir to accommodate um Mr Hammond's request to recognize the necessity of protecting the mangroves do we how do we facilitate that comment in this well I think there was the way I took that was a request made to um modify or amend the motion um to include that and sounded like the the chair as the Mover was was open to that and uh as long as you as the second are are amable to that um we can move forward with that um that friendly Amendment well and those and the manger is already protected correct so I you know it's really a it's just dou it's a double predict right it's a double protection on it but I know they're already protected so it's important to be specific on okay okay so all right so I've made a mo move in second amable to that request for a friendly amendment I will amend my second to be agreeable with um Deb's modification thank you I have no idea okay so we have a first and a second can we have a roll call please Deb GTH yes Lorie theond yes cherl cson yes Patrick Foley yes Tony Hammond yes Susan RAF yes and the motion passes 6 to Z with one abstain yes do do we need to have another and this is maybe a question for John do we need to have another motion on the actual application before us because we've modified it significantly or do we only need to do our recommendation because my vote would not be the same if it was the application before us no I think you're okay you you all have are making a recommendation on the application before you then that's what that that recommendation is was the um uh the modification you're recommending a mod but I I just needed I just wanted it to be clear that when it went to council it was only as Modified by this motion which I am in agreement with but I would not have been agreement with the re the original request just want to be clear that when the application goes to council it will go as presented by the applicant but I will give a report that this is how the LPA recommended and this is what they these are the caveats to correct vot the yes vote came from our recommendation not from as the as the application setre correct correct it was the motion was approved as modified okay and and we'll specify the modification that was on the uh uh the um Flume we now need to do the same thing on the zoning change yes that's correct so um since I started it well I guess this one it's not quite um so I I make a motion to accept the zoning change as actually presented um I think that's what I want to say I want to as as commercial fishing zoning District public comment no we've had that van you hav yes we have yes we have thank you yes we did it's all Mr Quick would you please explain to this gentlemen that we had this as one item and we opened the public comments correct A and B were taken together um in the interest of uh time among other things and uh so public comment has taken place on both a and and B um and now we're just looking for a vote on that okay so I've made a a motion to uh recommend the um zoning change to commercial fishing do I have a second I'll second discussion sure Mr Quick M oh Mr Quick I'm just making sure do we need to add the same recommendation to the zoning change that we just did for the making sure that we don't need to that we're doing the same Rec recommendations and restrictions do we need to add that to this recommendation on the zoning change restricted to commercial fishing only I mean the the recommendation was to create a um a subcategory but corre it's probably it's probably cleaner to do it to make it to recommend approval of the commercial fishing uh consistent with the conditions that were uh uh being recommended with The Flume application okay yeah I think it makes it consistent it makes it clear okay so I'll I'll pull my original and restated as I recommend that um I that we um recommend the commercial fishing zoning District as um referred to in The Flume with the same restrictions as in The Flume is that get that get us there John yeah okay thank you do I have a I'll second you second okay R I'm sorry R okay Deb Gillis yes sh hon yes Patrick fobby yes tney hman yes Lor Theon yes and S Rapido yes motion passes six to zero with one abstain thank you all right moving on to the next one uh it will be tabs um I'm sorry I don't remember the numbers it's it's D and a andb c and d uh which is the TAA table discussion um John would you like to read our uh and let me preface it do I have the applicant present that will let us combine these for conversation purposes okay and do I have any objections from the floor here okay John can you read the two app um titles for us absolutely uh C is an ordinance of is Village violence Florida concerning the request of T table key LLC to amend The Village's future land use map from residential conservation to mixed use for the subject property located on M Ki key with real estate number 00009 700- 000000000000 as legally described herein providing for the transmitt of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce D is an ordinance of isamar Village of violence Florida concering the request of table key LLC to amend the official zoning map from native residential to tourist commercial for the subject property located on upper M Ki key with real estate number 00009 700- 000000000000 as legally described here in providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce thank you um Jennifer are you presenting I am thank you LPA um the applicant table key LLC has presented um applications for a map Amendment um for their flum and for their zoning map Amendment um the flum um request is from residential conservation to mixed use designation and their zoning map amendment is from native residential district to tourist commercial District the property again is located at 7 9775 Overseas Highway it's comprised of 1533 total Acres 5.33 of those acres are scarified Upland the current use of the property is residential the applicant and owner attends to pursue transferring 24 Motel units from 82200 Overseas Highway to the subject property the applicants agent Bart Smith has submitted a letter detailing the map Amendment request and the zoning Amendment request the subject property currently has existing residential conservation future land use designation and a native residential zoning designation due to the location of the property there are no surrounding properties the closest property of the north is Bud Mary's Marine and is designated mixed juuse and has a marine use zoning District the again the character of the subject property is a single family residents the proposed fund Amendment from residential conservation to mixed juice in conjunction with the companion application for zoning map Amendment from native residential district to tourist commercial would allow the applicant owner to pursue transferring Hotel units onto the subject property the applicant owner has also provided in your packet a development agreement that outlines the proposed um Pro uh project and the commitments and restrictions that they are going prepared to agree to I'll let them go into further detail on their development agreement in their packet um that um I wanted to just note that that is not up for the lpa's approval um but I wanted that as your background information and because I felt that that was a bigger part of the whole project for you to look at and review this evening that will go for the council for review and approval um my uh staff report includes analysis on both the zoning and the flum amendment um uh you have it in your packet I won't go into all the details but at this time um I'm recommending approval of uh both the zoning and the flum amendment and then I'll hand it over to the applicant um Jennifer yes ma'am uh when you and I talked um earlier uh you you suggested that when you take these this and in other uh projects to counsil that you had a plan on how that you would present those uh you want to elaborate on that a little bit sure so this this project and we've got a couple others coming forward you know we'll have several pieces to it we'll have you know a zoning change it will have probably major conditional use a TDR you know affordable housing project has different the development agreement different pieces of you know development approvals that the council will need to review and approve uh my intention and plan will be to bring all of those pieces to the council as one complete packet at the same time so that they see everything and they review and approve everything you know along the same path on the same you know at the same time so that you know we're not doing it pcem mail we're not approving the zoning here and then 3 months later we're doing something down here I want to tr try to make sure the council the LPA and the community understands what's happening and why we're doing what we're doing and the reason that we wouldn't get all of that is because most of those items that you said wouldn't necessarily come in front of this board correct their Council trying to clarify why we wouldn't get the whole package yes okay um you're up good evening uh Bart Smith 138 Simonson Street on behalf of the applicant uh and I do have a presentation if you can pull up the PowerPoint I see it's on behind you but it's not on there we go all right when technology works it's already a good day that way we don't we can watch it not you what uh yeah so so Bart Smith uh so uh what you have before you today is a future land use map Amendment and land use District map Amendment for to propose for TAA table key but uh as Jennifer stated that that is not the whole package and the the in fact the most important piece of this package we have provided to you because it's what locks all of this together and it's a way for us to provide all of the pieces have them required to be dealt with together through the development agreement which then provides uh the ultimate result which is a property that is already utilized for vacation rentals for for for a transient use short-term use to then be fully realized as a a Destin a destination Resort that is perfect for this unique Island and I I really mean unique there's not many islands that have a roadway that connected it to the mainland that was built in the 1950s and so it's it's perfectly situated with 5.63 Acres of Upland to provide for for a transient use as it does now uh with the the additional units and and to provide so in a manner that is a benefit to the area benefit to the neighbors who I have uh many here today that are going to speak on behalf of this project and that has minimal impact also on on the the um areas surrounding it uh the reason I say that is is is we were we were before this board in September 2023 got a lot of feedback we listened uh uh some of the things we we had to address was traffic vegetation affordable how do we make sure that it's all tied together so we took all those ideas and we've we've worked on it we've brainstormed I have uh Victor BCE the the principal who's going to present the the the uh the fund side of the resort but uh I'm going to go for through some of the details before he goes where do I have to click this thing I'm clicking that way right where right towards towards the booth there you go so here here's the island itself uh some details about it it's got about five .63 Acres of scarified Upland most of that Upland is about 4 feet ngvd some spots rising up to 5 feet nvd uh it has an area mangroves one of the things that was talked about last time was preserving the mangroves and making document we've submitted uh uh flag surveys documenting the edges of the mangroves there's a small and so that we've clarified in the development agreement that no development shall be done near the mangroves and of course we have the setbacks commissioner brought that up and we made sure address it uh so the details it's 15.33% to mix use this commission is uh very familiar with it after the last two items what makx use is for The Flume so I'm not going to go into the details of of what The Flume is uh it's in the code Jennifer's succinctly covered it and tourist commercial the tourist commercial allows for the development of this Resort uh and we've also submitted the corresponding development agreement for tea table key and sunset key because these two are going to be combined together the actual Resort is both on this property and on Sunset key and so what the flumin L allows is for the tourists to for the transient units to be transferred there right now there's 30 transient units at sunset in 24 would be transfer to this site which is six less than last time we identified another thing was a concern about the density so we've identified to reduce that density we've taken six out of out of the equation uh which was another thought was that that that's too many units for the 5.63 Acres so it's under the density uh and then it will allow also the economic engine to do the affordable and because of concerns about traffic it also provides that all of the back of the house the check in and all of the guest Transportation will be done from sunset end being driven to this Resort so that it truly is an equal Resort where the guests are walking around there aren't Vehicles the only vehicles that would ever be on site is an emergency vehicle if there needs to be a delivery for something such as Linens but the vast majority will will be taken care of at sunset end there thereby creating this Serene uh environment um so uh so of course this change will allow for the sunset end to be redeveloped allow for the affordable housing to occur and then allow for this tourist commercial use with a lot of adjacent properties that have amenities that we would incorporate into it one of the things we put in the development agreement is that there can be no vessels that go to the property unless they're by a licensed is Mara Captain I.E you want to go f fishing for the DAT there's one dock we've we've agreed also no Marina but there's one dock Flats Flats guide from bu and Mar's wants to pull up pick up their guest they're the right person to do it they'll drive up uh go through that channel around the backside come in and pick up the guest truly making this this a eco-friendly Resort so we go through in The Flume Amendment identify uh the requirements for a flume Amendment and the historical trends of mixed use development in the area including the properties just in the north which are all mixed use and we can identify that it meets the criteria for The Flume Amendment so the this amendment also would uh uh assist in the development of the affordable housing on the other property and with the development agreement combining it together you get this great product which is the 24 Hotel units one residential dwelling unit accessory uses and structures that are limited to the guest and then at the sunset end you get the 24 affordable housing units 10,000 square ft of commercial retail restaurant or any combination the accessory uses and structures for the hotel and the off street parking and landscaping for the resort guests um in addition uh because we also recognize that there's significant work that needs to be done on the fills and that uh we want to be part of the solution but knowing that it's the village that needs to determine how they want to uh uh how to address the future of the fills they've agreed as part of the development agreement to donate 250,000 to the Village to be utilized towards improvements to the Phils um and finally uh in order so that the um units can be transferred wet to wet the sunset in was part of Kasa marata for years and years and years in fact they had way around well sorry sorry yeah right yep yep so but they were one property they even had a sewage treatment plant that that operated on both of them yep I am aware of that yeah yeah and so we're we're uh they're currently under contract to to acquire that property and they would be unified again which would make the the property wet and so it' be a wet to wet transfer and so all we need to do is is obtain the The Flume the lud the development agreement and so with that uh let's see I think I've covered all of this no oh the parking again the only parking for guests will be on Sunset in and now I'm at the very uh uh nice PL site plans so I think at this juncture uh if Victor wants to step up and uh give give a presentation on it uh if you want I have all of these how are you Victor B Estus with t table key I think uh I think Bart took most of my thunder um so I I'll be brief um anyway I think it it was clear to us after we left the last meeting when we came in front of you guys I think it was in September October that um the original plan that we presented um wasn't as well thought out as as we thought it was um so uh we we went back to the drawing board and tried to address all your comments to come up with something that um you know was was a little less impactful um and and that's where here in front of today right that that's what we're presenting to you guys today so we reduce the size of the development from 30 units to 24 units which was kind of the first step um we addressed the driving onto the island which I think was a major issue because everybody knows that that road is is very narrow um by including the sunset in property as part of the overall development right so like Bart said instead of people driving onto the island now um you will check in at sunset in which is offsite you'll be driven to the island by either a private uh boat or a private car uh both of which we volunteered to be electric um and this is what the site plan for sunset in would look like right this is our our draft which is uh basically rebuilding the commercial retail and restaurant um you know bringing Mangrove mics back into the fold if if they'd like to um in addition to that we would have a dedicated small check-in area for um for everybody that's that's visiting the island and then the most important part of this whole thing um is the 24 approved residential units which would be the workforce housing right um so you know a lot of you have seen what we've done um in and around Isa marada but we just delivered 280 of these units in Key West and although it took us four years to get it approved um now that they're built right it's you know everybody Raves about the impact that the 280 units have created to the community I would love to build 280 Workforce housing units here but I obviously understand that there's other issues in the village but these are the 24 units that we'd like to deliver here and and you know we see this as a real 24 Workforce housing units right where young professionals can come and and rent a one or a two-bedroom apartment right so that's how we'd like to develop it um so this is basic impact on the sunset in property um you know obviously removing the the hotel units from the property uh helps and we've discussed that with with the neighbors and and they like the plan so go to the next one so this is uh an initial rendering of what uh we believe the island would look like which is you know the 24 private villas with a small compact sort of check-in area um with a restaurant on site that overlooks the pool um and then the rest of the island would be more outdoor uh so people can walk around you know very similar to what you see in in a place like Little Palm Island um I think the impact here is even less than what we're allowed to develop if we wanted to build a large home so um you know the units are small they're compact they are you know essentially a hotel room that's suspended over a cabana and that's it right um all right so this this is just a rendering of what the uh the units would look like right now you know this could be in flux we can move on that's it so this is a a diagram that I put together just for context of the size of the island the um the area of T table here that's outlined is is the 5 Acres of or the roughly 5 acres of scarified land um that's very comparable to what you see in Little Palm Island right now that has 30 units um and we're proposing to do 24 units so less impact than uh what you see at a A Little Palm Island style Resort um so I thought that would be helpful as a visual just because it's important to understand that we're not looking to touch any of the mangr any of the water nothing this is this is just a development on the scarified land all right so the um the last one that I'd like to touch on is based on a lot of the rumors that I hear around town right um and you know a lot of what I hear is we're going to be impacting traffic right and the truth is that we're trading 24 units and sunset in for 24 units at tea table there's no impact to traffic there right if anything it's less traffic because we're driving them ourselves from Sunset into tea table the only thing we're creating that's new is 24 Workforce housing units that's it that's what we are creating that's new to the Village right and yes I understand it's 24 new Workforce housing units to the Village but I I I think we need them right I mean we've owned businesses in Isa marado for over 10 years and you know we have a hard time with with Workforce here so uh that is the only thing that is created new so I I came up with just a top 10 Truth for tea table key just to kind of dispel some of the rumors that I've been hearing around town so um one yeah this is a 24 unit eco-friendly Resort and what I mean by that is you know that's what people like to see these days they like the eco-friendly um part of a resort right so that's what we want to create here and that's we're going to try to do that by you know holding water holding rainwater so that we can um you know use that for our landscape um we're not accepting any motorized vehicles on the island not by car or by boat right if you come here it's because you know you like to walk around you like to see the environment you like to get on a paddle board you like to get on a kayak if you're looking to get on a you know a three engine outboard boat and right around Isa marada this is probably not the place for you right so that's kind of what we're focusing on here um number two the area to be developed is scarified Uplands we are not looking to tear down any mangr we're not looking to tear down any trees uh it's just the scarified area that you see right now if if you drive around tea table it's very clear right that there is nothing on that area right now except for some palm trees and one home and that is the only area that we're looking to develop on uh number three all Hotel units will be transferred from Sunset and no new hotel units will be added to ISA marada that's you know a point that I made clear a second ago uh number four parking will be offsite at sunset in guests will be transferred to T table by an electric vehicle or an electric boat number five tea table will benefit from a new sewer connection and the state-of-the-art sister and system to retain uh and reuse rainwater for new updated Landscaping sorry to repeat myself uh number six we have a monetary contribution for the fills again we'd like to see that improved but we leave it to you guys to decide what is going to be done there um number seven the project has no new Marina and no new dredging th this is something that I hear from a lot of people we are not looking to dredge we are not looking to build a marina we are keeping the existing dock as is and like Bart mentioned uh which is number eight um we we will add a deed restriction so that there are no power boats that come to the island um except for licensed captains that know their way to the island and are there to pick up guests that is it um number nine the project will generate significant increase to alam's tax base and the tourist tax revenue with no uh increase in hotel d to ISA marada we've just to that point we've Run Sunset in now for probably six years if I had to guess uh five six years something like that um and it it's it's a great property but you know the truth is that what we're doing here is is you know we're bringing in a a you know new quality of resort to the island that right now I don't believe is is available uh at number 10 um the significant improvements will be made to sunset in property uh including new community oriented retail and 24 approved Workforce housing units so I mean this is a point that I like to stress I we've built Workforce housing in the keys before right and today with the way construction costs are it's almost impossible right it's very hard to buy land in the village and build brand new Workforce housing right because we are doing this we are able to afford to build 24 new Workforce housing units so and those are approved those can come online as as you know as soon as we get to go to start so I just wanted to go through these 10 because that's what I've been hearing around town I wanted to kind of dispel that again we went back to the drawing board from the last time that we came in front of you guys uh we tried to come up with a plan that was thoughtful um that we think is a net positive to the village that creates no new traffic that is environmentally sensitive um I I hope we did a good job but I I leave it to you guys so uh as Victor stated we we went to the back to the drawing board we we listen to you we also listen to the neighbors we had a community meeting some of you actually went to that community meeting and I do believe that a lot of the neighbors that are here tonight are going to show that are here in support so we would hope we get your support as well and we welcome any feedback thank you all right at this point I think we want public comment first yes yes all right um first up two Miller Sue Miller lower mumbi I disagree with any upzoning of property in Alam marada it just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever we have traffic issues we have water issues we have sewer issues we have all kinds of issues and it's hard for me to believe that you're going to put 24 families out on an island and and not provide transportation to and from um the island are you going to isolate them it just none of that plan makes any sense to me whatsoever and um this world class upscale Resort how many employees is are there going to be are there going to be 24 employees I don't think so I think that there will be lots more tonight was the first time I heard the word restaurant is the restaurant only for the 24 families and and how many employees does it take um I they're just that is such a special Island I it broke my heart to find out that FEMA actually approved a a flood zone change on that island we all know that that's a low-lying island and and that that we had a village employee that said there that the Community had no objection to changing the flood map but never bothered to ask anybody that I'm aware of and and so when you think about it without that flood map change which I think was absolutely the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of in my life that now they can transfer development rights which they couldn't do with the flood map the way it was in a vzone they can also fill that Island I didn't hear a word about how they're going to fill it but it floods it floods in high tide so of course it needs to be filled but there are just so many things about this plan that made absolutely no sense to me and and so we're going to have more parking that's required for all the guests that come at sunset in I can tell you I I ate at Mangrove Mike and it's hard to find a parking place at Mangrove Mike and so so now we're going to have 24 families that need parking there and we need more uh you know parking for the affordable housing I just I don't know how any of this will make any sense it just it it's just unbelievable to me that we would do this in such an environmentally sensitive area how are the fire trucks going to get to that Island if there's a problem I I you know there are mangroves on both sides of that roadway that roadway cannot support our fire trucks I don't believe thank you who's next please her me zar herina zavar lower mumbi and I agree with Sue Miller I cannot believe that you are even considering upzoning it it it's it's incredible I we've got if we don't stop the commercialization of the keys there's going to be nothing down here for anybody to come to because it will be destroyed but but I see the writing on the wall but that's my opinion I think no more up zoning next K I'd like to point out at the outset that you have once again combined two items into one item which limits me to three minutes to talk about what these guys can talk about forever to try to defend Isa marada now I would like more than three minutes because I want we have six will you continue on please okay six is fine six I'll six I can do I can deal with okay well um when this came up before you before I pointed out that uh we did not have any kind of a statement from the fire department or the emergency service now I have since talked to the fire chief and he said that that that Causeway that goes out to those 24 houses uh would need to accommodate four fire trucks uh which that road does not do it would have to be twice as wide as it is now both sides of that Causeway are beautiful mangroves lining both sides of that Causeway they would all have to be destroyed in other words for that thing to be expanded to where uh you could get four fire trucks out there which is what's going to you know be required uh also uh pointing out what Miss Miller said about the the FEMA upzoning from from the uh vzone which is what it's always been because it's been under water uh to an azone which can be filled and built on I and was done surreptitiously out of the public eye and and uh I spoke to the the planning director right afterwards uh and she said that the Sheila uh Deon Court from the building department is the one that sat on the FEA requests and uh it went through with no complaint did you hear about it did the council hear about it no they did not and I'm really sorry that that uh uh Mrs Gillis is sitting as the head of this LPA and because she sold the the sunset in to Mr blest and and I think she should recuse herself and why I think you should recuse yourself because I don't get any money out of this you have you have a conflict of interest in making sure this H you know you you sold him the property you sold him the property you should not be in charge of this discussion down seconds get going okay well uh and also let's for 38 seconds let's talk about the human remains that were found out there that nobody wants to acknowledge the fact that that it could be uh an an Pioneer it could be a a Native American it could be a a n a Navy veteran from the hospital that was there in 1840 it could be a modern-day uh murder victim nobody knows and nobody wants to know because you want to put 8et of fill over it real quick before anybody has a chance to have an archaeological examination of that Island I think it's horrible what you're doing what you're trying to do and and if you feel can I take my three minutes my other three minutes now okay well if you fill that Island high enough to build those 24 units to bring all the the units from sunset in down and and put them in there then the first time that you have a hurricane all that fill is going to be on the surrounding Flats around that Island it's just a ridiculous thing to do a ridiculous thing to suggest it's environmental destruction and the fact that you choose to ignore it for the for the fact that it's going to increase the amount of of uh advolum that they're able to charge for that island and uh Mr bolest made the deal before the tea table ever came on to the scene that he was going to build 24 affordable housing units on the sunset end that was done before the sunset uh the before T table was ever on the horizon I mean it might have been in the back of his mind but it wasn't in front of the council so now uh suddenly we need to have tea table for an economic engine so that he can build those 24 units which he already promised to build I don't think that's correct at all and and you know it's it's just it's not a fair um use of of a historical Island you're not given the history of the island any uh uh consideration you're not given the people of alam marada the residents who have lived here and enjoyed that uh for all these years any consideration at all except for the the dollar amount that you can extract instead of having $150 night motel room at sunset in you're going to have a $2500 a night uh vacation rental down on tea table now which is again the exclusive elitist Enclave of alam marada rolls on this is not uh beneficial to the people that live here who have always been here it shows no no respect for the environment shows no respect for the residents and it shows no respect for the history of this place and um I am really afraid that that once you once this is done if it if it goes uh beyond the council and they and this thing is approved and built it will be an environmental disaster and it will certainly not be beneficial to anybody in Isa marada and and except the people that own the property and you um Mrs Gillis are are in a place where you can con control how how long the the public gets to speak about this item and and yet um you allow unlimited time for the people who are trying to do this project which is again unfair the same unfairness that you just showed with the with the sojourn property you combine things together instead of having six minutes you have 3 minutes and you wouldn't allow me to come back and rebut what had been given thank you very much for my 6 minutes who's next please Jo wishire Jo wishm Plantation key it's kind of a tough act to follow because a lot of my points are kind of the same as his I just want to remind you all that you know remember last time you voted unanimously of course they claim now that they've changed a lot of their stuff around we didn't vote last time vot well deferred it was deferred yes it was no it was withdrawn it was actually withdrawn yeah right yeah they withdrew their application and we did not vote we did not vote okay well as far as the the flood zoning goes from from a v to an a you know uh again I don't understand how one public official uh can say that the entire Village had no objection and I even ask you the same thing van did were any of you contacted did anybody get your opinions and you're the LPA much less the council God forbid it should come down to the individual residents I know that I never had any clue so now they actually have a better flood zone than I do and I don't live on an island I see the damage that's been happening look at the damage that happened in Irma look at what happened to to Snappers or the postcard in or even The Islander how much damage was done to that now how much damage you think is going to be done to an island if another hurricane comes through or maybe even stronger so you need to consider that as well again about the bones that Mark Greg brought up I thought there was supposed to be some sort of Investigation to find out what they were or why they were or what was going on and I don't understand how you can transfer uh rights from the sunset in which is a non-waterfront to the tea table which is a waterfront now they've said that they were going to try to acquire the property behind them and then combine the two what kind of Precedence would that say for somebody who owns a house and there's oh some land land in between me and the ocean so if I buy that now we can claim everything as Waterfront and build bigger Resorts and bigger houses so I think that would set a very very bad precedence at the least they should nothing should be done until they even do acquire that property because I understand it's been tried before but the price was too high the historical importance of the Old Navy base out there you know we're supposed to be preserving all of our historical sites well this is a very historical site if you remember what happened with Indian key that's where the Navy sent the barges from if you're so concerned about the advalorium taxes well why don't we do something with legol land that I call that Sun Country building block whatever it is so we haven't done anything with the advalorium taxes there so that would be another thing to look into so seems how the flood the flood zone was approved I suggested to the council it either should be rescinded or at least not approve any further development on that island thank you thank you Joe next Armando Gonzalez hey you guys how you doing I'm not into politics state your name please okay oh you're supposed to State it okay Armando Gonzalez I'm not into politics I hate it I'm up here because I heard Workforce housing I've owned a business in his community for 30 years I've lived here for 30 years I love Isam marada I love everything you guys are doing and I think that the the the project that Victor's doing will be a great benefit to our community that's my person feeling there's all kinds of other feelings but the workforce housing my employees can't afford housing and Workforce housing we need so I think it's a great thing that he's doing it that's all I got to say about that thank you thank you next Pier Mark Bellion hello my name is pi Mark Bellon um I own businesses here in town and I've been coming since uh the late 80s um I understand that some people are a little resistant to change uh but I think that change happens and the only way to control it is to embrace it and try to be in control um I was here in 1990 when Uber bodw built the Mings he had a vision just like VOR has a vision and um he wanted to do something extraordinary that was on par with what the people of Isam or what I liked I think we all proud of what the moing is we know what the moing brought to the community um I was on the side of pier and moral Bay in 1999 when the surveyors were looking at the problem it was a junkyard now it's pure in Morada Bay um what I'm trying to say is change is a good thing when you make sure that it goes the way you want and I think we're lucky to have uh a project like this one um I I I just expressed the General Vision now in more specifically um I don't see any impact either like VOR said because these units already exist um I understand that some people could be also reluctant to see hotel prices going from 150 a night to 2500 a night but you cannot afford staff nowadays with 150 fee for room if we want to be able to keep our employees in town we want to keep people here we want to give them a decent job again we have to embrace the change and uh we need to be able to charge more for the rooms or all our employees are going to leave I have about 25 employees uh I'm losing all of them all the time because of the cost of living so when I hear employee housing I'm excited um so that's that's my point I think we are actually lucky to have a project like this one um again Chang is going to happen things going to happen let's make sure we control them let's make sure we have a vision let's make sure the people who build and develop the island have vision and if this vision is um um sorry I'm looking the word in English right now if this vision is is uh caring about the environment eco-friendly everything I hear about it is I think fantastic and I think we should promote it support it uh instead of uh oppose it uh but again I understand The Reluctant I just think it needs to be uh explained and and agade more thank you thank you sir next Lu Anita I need you to start the clock we we can reset it but hello my name is Lou Senna and I live in alamara between chicod and The Islander um I'm also a kiteboarder my family lives here they go to Coral Shores High School uh I actually enjoyed kiteboarding past uh tea TBL so I know Island Mara very well from the water perspective I cycle to uh 3 four days a week and um up and down Overseas Highway I'm here to support this project and for a very simple reason when I look at ISA marada I see a quality that when you go further south declines and when you go further north it declines Isa marada has uniquely created a quality that doesn't exist even if you just go a few miles north or south of Isa marada until you get the Key West and then it jumps up again and I don't think that happened by accident it happened by people that are doing things just like this tea table project to create a unique experience um for Alam marada and for visitors that come to Isam marada um I I look at at Founders Park as an example I mean look at the wisdom that must have taken place to create Founders Park adding quality to Alam marada but that's not even the big win here the big win is the affordable housing how is it that we're going to get this great affordable housing in the heart of alam marada and not have any impact that's what's happening no impact in affordable housing from a a very green environment to boot so a project that is um going to be using shuttles with electric vehicles and boats uh a green uh focus on the entire development and I hear of uh you know floods and things like that my understanding these these uh Villas are all on stilts they're going to be above the flood regardless and they're going to be built to all new code requirements which is a benefit to alamada it's going to uh preserve the quality of this lifestyle and the last and final thing I'll say is while that island is is gorgeous they have Victor and his family be the only ones that experience it I'm sorry that's selfish I'm sorry how dare you be selfish yeah I mean I I still go to Pierre and I go to I I I mean to allow visitors from around the world to have this experience of alam marada with that property is opening up to the public in that sense and so I support it thank you very much thank you who's next please Lisa [Music] emmer of course I'm not going to um agree with this crazy development Lisa Lisa emert thank you port Antigua Isa marada been here for about 20 years when I first came here I I learned that the village was incorporated you had had your own counsel and everything and you kept out all the the chains as much as you could you you made it so that it was the quaint fishing environmentally conscious place and that has changed a lot sadly money has been a big part of what's going on here and it's despicable because all the money in the world is not going to bring back the endangered sawfish that are dying our pollutants in the water too many people here too much traffic the fish that are dying that we still don't even know what is going on so we don't really know what the long-term effects are going to be on our tourism on our fishing and that's something that the big money doesn't really care about because it's money and it's going to ruin this and it already has our snorkeling and our fishing and our commercial fishing everything is at stake when all this development keeps happening it's just being pushed aside and you can say that it's going to be eco-friendly no it's really not you're going to be bring bringing in you're building new construction on this wonderful Island that's going to take its wear on te sunset's been there already you're building 26 new ones you're just doing a trade on paper I feel so sad that this could even be in question you want to have oh you have this park and people can go kaying well put some money into green areas instead of looking at the money effect that you're going to have with making $2,400 a night rooms we have all the beautiful Resorts we need we have Isam marada is beautiful for the last person that talked and you know we have plenty of people that are coming here and enjoying it but remember it's not going to be able to be enjoyed like it has been it's already in a decline it's in a big Decline and this development has to stop affordable housing yeah that's kind of a joke too we're supposed to have affordable housing and you're having 24 units put in for an affordable housing well there's going to be a hell of a lot more employees at the resort um you know other business people are saying we need affordable housing well the 24 places aren't going to cover Blue Marlin or any of you know the other um businesses we do need affordable housing for employees and people who live here and it's only getting worse the focus here is too much on money and greed and we're going to lose it all down the line if this doesn't stop am I out of time oh good um and as far as the fills go we definitely need need to do something like that I'd like to just go back to when the the community was in an outrage on what was going on there with the day Trippers and the garbage and you know being used as a trash site and stuff I'd like to look at an environmental test on the fills right now when there's been no human impact as much as there was there hasn't been the amounts of garbage people just using it as their party sight and leaving and they were no heads in the Beds By the way they were day Trippers for the most part and it was trap and the community came together and stopped it thank God it's better now because the and I would like to you know an environmental study would be nice to be on there just to see how the mangroves have growing and how things have improved just in that area alone so we don't need to add more impact by more people you can say like the firetruck stuff the all that you can make it sounds so sugarcoated and stuff but it's not the people that are going to be coming there and staying are they not going to litter are they not going to walk in the mangr you're going to keep it all protected the in the human impact the footprint on this stuff has to stop it's not going to matter down the line if we have no more coral reefs fish species that are dying that we put on the table to eat that we come to look at under snorkel or a mask I mean these are big issues that none of us in this room really know exactly what the outcome is is going to be to continue to be it's not good and we want to add big Resort stuff and more people here and more traffic it's ridiculous we need to protect our wonderful keys and mural County itself also needs to look at the whole chain it's not just the village like I said before it's not just the village it's just not Island marada it's the whole chain of islands with the developments the human impact why aren't we more of a green chain of Islands just in recycling alone I was astounded when I came here 20 years ago that major Resorts major restaurants none of them require recycling that's just astounding to me and it's so sad and now we want to start talking about this big green high-end world class resort it's a little too late for some of the green stuff especially when it's that kind of impact I still have more time you gave me six 20 seconds oh well that's it for me thank you I do not approve thank you thank you do I have any other public comment Anita anybody on Zoom no no one else no one on Zoom nope nope all right um the applicant can try to make it as short as you can yes very briefly uh just address some of the comments one uh this is not big it's 24 existing units there's 30 actual existing units at sunset in we're utilizing 24 of the units that is not a significant big development and it is green is providing for all of the Eco requirements to be green and that is the goal is to provide a more Green Resort something to be modeled after as to the entrance way and fire we've already had preliminary meetings with all of the staff including fire as to the sufficiency of the entrance way it's wide enough we're not going to impact mang Groves a fir truck can drive out there just fine once it's on the property it can turn around in fact there's a lot of room to turn around out there it's actually one of the easier turnarounds that I've had to deal with in The Last 5 Years I'm deal with affordable projects where we can't ever turn around uh the flood maps one it's a ladder of map revision lar which is an administrative function of the village when they that form and it's based on the actual hydrographic conditions of the property here's the the interesting fact the new FEMA flood maps puts it in an AE Zone as well so when the new flood maps go into effect it is still an AE flood zone that is because the calculations of the Hydrographics of the water and then as the island slopes up provides that it is not a highwave action site this actually is based on the the calculations an AE site the the map was an error you apply for a letter of map revision when there's an error and they correct it that's what was done uh and finally as the island itself it's already developed it is developed it is utilized for tourist housing it's a vacation rental property it already is being used for this use what we want to do is provide a better Pro a better type of vacation rental use that can be enjoyed by more and not just Victor and his family so I can hope that you can provide an approve a recommendation for approval of both The Flume and the lud and provide whatever suggestions for the development agreement we're here to listen to you and provide a product at both sites and so that's why we've provided this development agreement to tie it together and to give you the ability to provide these suggestions so Jennifer can bring it forward to the council with that I thank you and I hope you can approve thank you thank you um so now we're to our discuss question Cheryl I knew you had a time frame uh do you have time to make your let me start with this let me start at no not only no hell no let me make it very clear to you do either one of you fly fish do either one of you fish okay that's a premier Bone Fish flat there are over a 100 Bone Fish a day on that flat property out there and already the people from that little place that you got out the house on there have already begun encroaching on that but there's con colonies back out there now too nothing makes life worse for a bone fish flat than traffic and putting this amount of effort on there and by the way little palm does not impress me because little palm prior to PT no19 being filmed out there in 1963 that's how the power got out there and it stayed okay with good bone fishing until they put little palm in and then the Bone Fish went away so you need to be aware of that so you are already looking at destroying a place that has 100 Bone Fish a day that are currently in the county valued somewhere between $140 and $150,000 each annually and the income they bring in so there's 15 1415 million for you the mere concept that I had to look at an email today from somebody said I support it because they'll bring us top tier guests the whole concept that we are at the all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others is irritating as all get out this needs to stop you have wonderful guests everybody that comes into this county is a wonderful person we should welcome them but you don't separated out by the God Almighty dollar the concept of building on that island which 3.6 Acres of Upland area available according to the property appraiser and then some other areas that were all fragile ecosystems is a paing I can't believe that you even think that this is a great idea you need to take your affordable housing and create it back at the sunset end it's a great place you've already got buildings you need if you already had at least two refusals people that started pre-application processes and were turned down in 2019 and 2020 so I'm a little appalled that it came to us the environment Al negative environmental impact of this is just overwhelming I can't believe it's even considered the mere fact that you think that you can take and put let's see that's probably 40 people a day minimum on the Allen plus the employees and not have an impact on this Premier flat the fish and everything else that surrounds it means you don't get it this is like having a whole Koga wagon to show up full of carpet baggers getting off and saying let me get my money out of here and go back and if if you don't know what a carpet bagger is I refer you to the Civil War but you can read Margaret Mitchell's novel gone with the win or you can read John Jake the Civil War series it'll help you fill in in case you had a Florida education and didn't know it the the tdrs that you're talking about transfering the mere fact that you think that you can recombine the property to take the TDR and make it wet again Sue Miller Deb Gillis and I sat in and help write that and the intent was never ever ever and it is in the minutes from the M meet because I went and looked that the tdrs could not be recombined and remade wet so I am not through on that subject yet but no you can't take anything off a wet lot a dry lot and put it on the waterfront that was never the intent of that TDR the change in the flood zone I recognized the change in point but it doesn't make good sense because I know how much water that Island goes under I lived in lower met I know how many times we couldn't get over the bridge to come back to go by Papa Joe's when it was raining like crazy and a mild storm that Island's underwater the fire safety is another issue and by the way I've been across that cause me many times and I would not want to see somebody go out there in an ambulance have to turn around and try come back somebody back when somebody's having a heart attack I did have a conversation with ter able today and he wasn't wild about it either so you've got a fire safety issue and there's no way in the world anybody should let you dredge that place nor do you want to go over there on another Island the it just the entire thing is so bad so poorly thought out the mere fact that you think you should put another house out there that you should put more buildings on the water we are taking time to get things off of the water to make us storm hardened so that you don't have anything on an area that floods this makes no sense whatsoever Mr blus I'm sure you're a very nice young man but the problem gets to be you don't understand the fact I know you live in Miami and your kids are in school in Miami you need to spend some time down here and let them walk around you need to see what's out on those Flats if you can't fly fish and you can't walk it and you can't snorkel it and nobody in that organization needs to take a kayak and go across that flat when they see a boat pulling across there looking for fly looking for fish that's an 8 $900 a day there's 10 of those bels out there so they're at $88,000 a day just to be out there bone fishing on that flat we have every tournament in the world Tarpon are out there bone fish are out there we used to see red fish out there every once in a while but it had happen in a long time but that is a premier flat the fact that the con came back is because things have begun to change and this will destroy it just like it destroyed the area around little palm do not give me little palm as an example please uh uh please I know you get excited but please um okay you who's next sure help yourself um of Staff Jennifer you had mentioned before that the develop the proposed development agreement which um I know has not been hashed out worked out uh finer details yet to come but you had indicated that that uh was presented to us as part of the bigger picture of the whole project for review and so my question to you is is whether your recommendation to approve this was based in large part on the development agreement yes and that raises a huge concern for me and I think that's the end of the answers to to to my question because within that development agreement it is to run with the land only small pieces of it for a duration of only 10 years so after 10 years we will have rezoned this island and all bets are off respectfully I don't think that we can have a recommendation develop based on development agreement that only has a 10year duration before it disappears and no longer is part of the land the other issue I have is when this came before us back in September and the applicant withdrew it in large part a lot of our our concerns were the fact that both the staff recommendation as well as the application was not based upon any studies it was based primarily on affordable housing the only study that I saw in this application was one pertaining to affordable housing the analysis with respect to the concurrency for storm water portable water um so on and so forth all said well we'll look at that later respectfully under chapter 163 of the Florida Statutes to have a flume Amendment it has to be based on sufficient data and Analysis and we have yet to se see a marine Eco study which was one of the huge concerns raised by Mr Hammond we haven't seen any studies at all other than an affordable housing study the analysis that was done is still based on a 2010 population census and even then it said we don't know and yet another one with respect to traffic said we're probably going to exceed it but none of that is comes forth I mean you have to to mine and dig and not a single one of the concurrencies can say yes absolutely it was either non-information or we'll figure it out later or we're probably going to exceed it and there are no Studies by the applicant and the onus is not on staff for that the onus is on the applicant to provide those datas and studies on which to base case of Flume Amendment and we don't have any more than what we did in September which was a huge concern of mine then it remains a huge concern of mine now coupled with the fact that we have a development agreement on which we're basing this Ecco study we have to have a combination of lots we're not losing I mean the developer is not giving up six motel units they're just going to say we're going to put them on the other Hotel Site so they're only taking 24 to the island but they're transferring six and that's part of the conditions precedent to the development agreement which only has a 10-year duration so then we're going to have an additional density on that property that is a condition of what they want to do for tea table and to build the affordable housing I don't think our Zeal and a correct desire for affordable housing can support this broad-based application when we don't have the other studies to submit it and we have a development agreement which staff has indicated they base largely the recommend on that only has a duration of 10 years before pardon the pun it sunsets and is no longer going to be the the the island would no longer be hampered by it I I just don't think I just don't see see that it can it can go forward with those acknowledgements to it somebody from this side of the table yes I've got a couple comments um one the affordable housing argument or affordable housing uh Pro promise is something that the county uses all the time whenever they want to get something that nobody else wants pass when the when the public doesn't want it pass they they bring up the affordable housing uh aspect of this and claim that that's why they're going to approve this and they always fail at it the affordable housing is is is just a a ploy to get things past and I think I don't know about this case you know it sounds like this may you know I think the intentions are always good but affordable housing is should not be the reason this is passed this should stand on its own merits affordable housing is something that uh should not be attached to these things because it is always viewed favorably and and I think it clouds the vision the decision making by by governmental bodies and secondly I mentioned earlier the the concept the real estate concept of coming to the land in this uh particular appliation fits this I think more closely what that means is uh when you buy a piece of property you know exactly what benefits what rights come with that piece of property this piece of property the when they um when it was purchased was residential native and the only way we should change any uh zoning or up up zon area change any of the categories of the of the properties here is if there's some extraordinary rationality some some some some we we cheated them 30 40 years ago out of this position or or something else but just because that uh you know we're going to bring a worldclass resort to this place is not a extraordinary rationale to change the setting here so uh I think the the owners um you know it it almost sometimes it feels like uh they buy a piece of property at a low price because not a low price nothing in is is low and I know I think they paid $ 10 million for this piece of property but um the bad piece of property at a lower considered price because of the zoning because it's residential uh Native residential and next thing you know it's it's a it's a hotel uh and that's you know if you had to buy a piece of property that was Zone Hotel on this island this might be a $40,000 $40 million piece of property rather than a $10 million piece of property so it seems like perhaps the um this is application is there was a business mistake made or a business decision made or a gamble was placed on this piece of property I'm going to buy it for 10 million bucks and I'm going to fight like Hill to get get it get it changed so I can put a hotel on there and uh that if you don't if we don't approve this it is it's a it's a it it you lose potential Revenue in future but I don't think it is the duty of Isam marada the village of isada to bail out you know Bad Business decisions and I think this may be one of [Music] those Jim um yeah I'm still trying to kind of weigh some thoughts here um give me a minute I have a couple questions I just have aou couple questions so right now um Sunset currently has 30 units does that include Kasa marada no yes yes or no I'm getting conflicting things one saying yes over here my left ear no it does not include KAS Mara's units so kasara has how many 12 16 okay so 16 by rights they have 18 Yeah marker 16 transient two marker rates no no it's it's it's 16 transient with two transient that could be added but are not being used they're not developed yet okay so that's plus plus plus two what's your intention with that are those going to remain remain and what you're going to rent continue to use those as Hotel units just how they used now okay just is yeah no no no change expected there so I guess my question is is there's currently 30 units exist on sunset sunset in currently correct yes all right and yet you're choosing to only um develop 24 Workforce housing units um so we had the right to develop 31 but came to an agreement with the neighbors to only do 24 I think the development agreement has 25 though this 24 no no no the workforce she saying for Workforce for yeah we were we negotiated what you're saying what you're saying is is that you had conversations with the neighbors the few neighbors that are there and they were they wanted you to downsize the the the density from 31 actually I'm sorry it was 41 to 24 to 24 yeah that's significant when we have a significant deficit of Workforce housing units they a significant deficit but to be fair to be fair the council at the time wanted us to get the approval of the residents and the res would only do it at 24 I I got you I hear what you're saying do hear what you're saying let me add in I I would build 200 if I could the time I'm sorry what did you say the hotel was staying there at at the time at the time the hotel was the time when that was negotiated with the neighbor with the neighbors 30 Motel units would be there in addition addition I can I could probably understand why they would be a little a little sensitive to to to to that number of of units yeah I mean we'd be happy to revisit if we can go back to to 41 and renegotiate with them now that the hotel would be leaving but that's not something that we wanted to do not not not at this time right I I understand I hear what you're saying I hear what you're saying um okay can I address some of the other comments I'm not the chair I'm only the co-chair or the alternate chair um I thought you guys were done with your presentation no no no no it's fine I just I didn't know if I should address some of the other comments but it's okay you mean public comments here's I mean so so so Victor how I mean with 25 units over there on um tea table so that's anticipated that they're going to come as couples so that's basically 50 people yes I mean how many employees do you anticipate that you're going to need in order to accommodate the upscale luxury requirements that these particular let's say 50 guests are going to demand yeah that's a good they're going to demand if they're paying big bucks they're going to demand luxury accommodations and luxury service yeah that's a good question so I I mean I think I think we can base it on relatively what a hotel like a chica Lodge would demand but based on 24 units versus whatever they have 150 units I think our expectation and you know we haven't drilled down specifically on this is that um most of that that Workforce is is done like chica Lodge does it which is you know daily workers that come in in by by Transportation uh we would expect that there would be some workers that would uh work on the island that would also live in the work force but we don't expect it to be a significant number probably like the manager or the assistant manager or the food and beverage director stuff like that but we're we're trying to develop decent Workforce units for it to be like right you again you're you're not really answering my question I know I was quite shocked when a you know a fairly new eating establishment um came into the community and they have well over 110 employees I was shocked that they needed to have that many employees in order to accommodate their needs so I'm thinking like if you got 25 units with how many employees are you going to need to have on your payroll and I think it's going to be more than 50 or I think it's going to be more than 24 even that you would even yeah I mean I I I can't so so that puts more Demand on Workforce housing no no I what I'm trying to say is I don't think that the majority of the workforce that's going to be working on that island is going to be staying on that island and I think it's brought in like like they do a chica Lodge I think there'll be a percentage of people that would work on that island that would stay in the workforce but I think it would be a small percentage it's still people it's still people and it's still people trying to Traverse the highway it's the same as people that work and I'm sure at some point those people are going to wish that they lived locally yeah I mean look we have employees at sunset in like Hotel need employees right so I mean we're we're getting rid of the units that's on S in to do this right so you have more now later you can add more of course so Tony or I can I can comment I'll um I'll tell you guys what I'm thinking I'm thinking that that I've been out there and seen the house I think you know something's going to happen there and I'm seeing the current zoning that you have an opportunity you're right to go out there and build you know this quote unquote mega mansion and right now you know if we have a development agreement is it better you know to you know push this eco-friendly side of things that's being described to us you know you brought up the 10 years which is a little bit concerning to me um I don't yeah can I can I address that so development agreements can only be a 10-year duration by law that's the maximum duration John quick we'll tell that we're more than happy to have terms survive or be in a deed restriction that survives the development agreement but as to development agreement under chapter 163 3221 at all the maximum duration of a development agreement is 10 years it can be renewed in two up to 30 years and 10 year increments that's all you get is 10 years but we can put a deed restriction that is required to be filed as part of the development agreement and that's like the type of of suggestion and that wasn't in the packet that was that that profer is being made now that profer to be clear well and and we're happy to put whatever terms you want into the a restriction part of the part of can I ask one quick question while I have you up there the the affordable housing units and and I agree everything Patrick said so I don't want to fall down this Rabbit Hole too far but are they HUD income restricted affordable homes or Monroe County okay well Monroe actually follows HUD I don't know if you know that but HUD and Monroe County are the same numbers they are on your mic on your mic on your mic no that's not how it operates but you have a higher income sorry the the and and again we just built 280 of these inq West those are Monroe County restricted because we did not take any money from the federal government um the ones that we would be building here would be under the Restriction of Isa marada which Isa marata has a maximum per unit that we can charge for those work staggered much and goes much higher um than I mean I I've looked at the latest Monroe County ones and you have to basically forget what the number was but it is six figures to you can you can still qualify for affordable housing well into six figures no so Isa marada has a very specific restriction that's $2,400 per unit and you can't charge any more than that so there would be they would that's a head restriction she's talking about that's what you can charge but she but but Susan is talking about what how much income you would you would you can make you're medium income or low income that's totally different commissioner curon is correct it's all based on income it's 30 it's a basically a formula based on 30% of income and Family household size so two-bedroom unit is assumed you have a household size of three people which Maximum rent is then based on the median income of the of a medium household for three people if you're allowed to be moderate income then it's 120% times the median income for a 3ers household side as provided by the median income as produced by Hud every year based on American census survey so every County bases theirs on the HUD numbers and then it's based on household size so when you ask the question is it based on HUD yes because that's how every jurisdiction bases it but it's also you can say hey we're only doing median income units and then it's based on the the income produc have been a better way to phrase my question than you because I see low median and then you know it kind of Ed it gets real high on if you middle oncome it can get off there middle Middle's the 140% so the county actually limits the maximum you can do in the county is 120% where he built his they to do they were they did 45% sorry uh 30 uh was 30% moderate but anyways so it's really about what those units are made of that's just the but what we're really just talking about is that that's the maximum amount that you can make that's what you need to take into consideration so it makes the qualification so so here in in the village if you got one person and you're in the moderate which is you can make $117,000 and still qualify to live in one of these units it's a moderate income if it's a moderate income it's a low income you will not but if it's a low income it's 600 it's 66,800 that is correct right and and a very low is 41,000 which is why my question was better was a horrible question I acknowledge and I'm going to change it entirely again I didn't down because because yes it was a horrible question um is whether it is capped at very low low or moderate and if there are any Caps or just they're going to fall Within These parameters and that's typically at the discretion of the commission and it the reality is is that if it's all low so like when you do a low-income housing tax credit project you're going to have uh 45% of the units be low income and very low income and then 55% will be moderate and then the low income units are going to be subsidized by those tax credits to be built because you can't you yeah you can't finance a low-income unit the interesting thing is is like so the Qs Housing Authority just built a 140 units uh and their biggest issue is they can't find people that qualify anymore for the low-income units because the minimum salaries to work in Monroe County because even waiters and and uh and the back of the house staff are going to pay $25 an hour for those jobs and so they no longer qualify for the low income yeah anyway thank you for the tutorial it'll help me more than just tonight I appreciate it I I reiterate I think we've gone a little bit far field because I don't view tea table as an analysis of affordable housing but but you've answered questions I've had on a lot of other things so I appreciate it so Jim had the floor all of that started no no worries I'm learning a lot um no I think um yeah he's he's low he's low income we got to represent this kidding Joe Kidd yeah someone's got to represent right um no I hear a lot of um to be honest before this meeting I spoke I spoke to some you know people in the community young professionals and it was all positive and then tonight I'm hearing a lot of things and my my biggest concern is it comes to the environment but um I'm thinking I I'm looking here you know what it's currently zoned as there's an opportunity there to you know with a minor conditional something that we won't even see to go out there and build a house that takes up 30% of the lot um and you know I I also see the development agreement to do this eco-friendly you know facility so that's a that's just a tough thing I'm trying away right now um when it comes to a lot of the the things that are brought up you know um some of them are you know not to go back to what um Pastor Tony said but you know they're code complaints when it comes to trash pollution you know those are things that I think we have facilities and code in place to take care of you know if they're not being utilized correctly or or at all in some aspects you know maybe we need to do that better but to take it out on an applicant or or on the LPA for that matter I don't know if that's fair um earlier Lori brought up you know our two biggest industries you know tourism commercial fishing um you know that that's something that I I see in the application as well uh I don't know like I said I I don't know if I this is an opportunity to to do it the right way or if um it'll it'll be just such an impact down the road so so you welcome as we go further down this you're welcome to come up with other questions if you have a question I don't know if I have a question right now I it's fine if you have another statement if you have another statement yeah yeah um I just I just didn't want anybody to think that you get one shot at this no no of course those of us that's been here a couple years we have a tendency to step in no of course of course thank no I that's I mean maybe they're just talking points to get us speaking about it you know who wants to clarify I mean I not to say you know I'm the new guy on this but you know I I respect the experience that you guys have up here you know if something you hey maybe I'll jog memory where hey look we've seen something like like this before and it was a good experience or hey you know we made the wrong decision my my fear is that in 20 years something else comes in front of us and it doesn't have this development agreement and then and it gets pushed through and it gets approved you know right now we have this eco-friendly you know facility being presented um and I I don't really want to use the term facility I mean I use it a lot you know with my work and but I don't want to scare anybody with that word but uh I mean those are my thoughts I think of if it gets proposed down the road maybe there's a situation where we don't have this you know even with the the current zoning like I said we could have a house there that takes up 30% of the lot and it we would never see it I mean it would just be something that went through planning and and it would just be through a minor conditional use and that could have a huge impact you know with no environmental ties so true so Cheryl earlier you made you made sort of a comment or reference to um a proposal that came before the um LPA or something and at some point previous yes I spoke with a couple D Mike I spoke with a couple of it was brought to my attention by several people around town that several there were at least one if not two applicants that were turned down in 2019 and 2020 to develop this property because they wanted to put another home home and three I think three of their accessory but the bottom line was the square footage was somewhere in the neighborhood of it would have doubled what's out there now it is nowhere near what they're talking about now and because of the Upland area the fact that it before they changed the flot you they couldn't fill it and the last thing that Island needs is fill that's my and the mere fact that I'm looking at two people that were told that they would not get through planning because of the conditions not being met we I don't want to set us up for further failure either I see other people who've come before in 2019 and 20120 with the emails I'm looking at we told that that was not going to work so there this is not like this is the first shot out yeah and that was with the the zoning staying the way that was yeah that was um one of the planners pointing out to the questions that were being ask you know could can we build on this no you can't this it doesn't mean and it cites the it cites different parts of the code you know single family dwelling caretaker's Cottage accessory uses Etc so with the current Zone it's and it's it's a very small acre if you look at uh the um property appraisers website I think it was 3.8 or right just less than four acres that were actually considered um buildable the rest that was basically goes under water every tide um the or at least every high tide the um it just there was just that you add that into it we've told people no before and I don't know why we're saying yes this time why why I would even think about saying yes this time but my primary objection as I made very clear is the envir negative environmental impact of any further construction on this island Ray Brown should never have put that house out there when it was put up and I want to say it went up in probably 71 or 72 I'm sorry I don't I wasn't living here then I had to Bas it off Bobby E's memory but the house that's out there at the time I can't remember when the causeway went through but it the house that's out there is now quite L has been added on to and some other things have been done to it but don't tell me how wonderful it is at little palm because I know that the fishion isn't there anymore and that we cannot afford to lose this flat or any of the fish in this community it is our primary source of income the hotels are full because people come here to go look or fish for those fish right did you have I will I will agree with you with that you know my late husband constantly spoke about the decline in the in the bone fishing um fisheries and um and Jimmy probably remembers is looking through boxes and boxes of photographs of fish because every time he went fishing with somebody they got their photograph taken with a fish and I had ended up with boxes and boxes of pictures of men I didn't know who the hell they were but some of them had some really nice fish I thought you were I didn't throw him away I didn't throw him away because I was like I was afraid like that was probably hist story um but he did speak about the decline and and he was very adamant about my son not becoming a fishing guide because of the fact that the Fisheries were were declining so I I I I do understand where your thoughts and your opinions are coming from in that respect Cheryl otherwise you might as well go to Orlando and see the pretend keys that Disney put up sure I was just waiting sorry go Tony sorry I'm just thrilled to realize that I qualify for affordable housing tonight I think we all do on this side this di yeah so I would be hardpressed to make a decision either way tonight quite honestly I still think there's a lot more homework you guys are be commended for the work you did for the response to the environmental concerns of mangr communities to the to the cause way and that address and you you deal those things and and Victor and I talk just In fairness so you know that we had a conversation um I like the concept I I do think we need to get some questions answered still um I agree with Cheryl you do anything that's going to remotely jeopardize it flat we're you know we talk about our two biggest Commodities out here tourism and fishing so right now those two are headed for a collision in that regard um so what can we do to address that that's number one the second thing um is we can't just bounce over the fact that this was a historic site and that there may or may not be human remains on there I I listen we we dealt with this years and years ago um when Founders Park was becoming Founders Park it was actually about to become coraor high school and then we started getting the idea about well this a big great community park and so they said oh let's put the school at kaloa Campground you realize that the first Spade that was stuck in the ground at kaloa Campground would have shut that whole project down because they would have they could have dug down 4 inches and began to find IND remains um we can't we can't just ignore that because I think you're going to spend a ton of time and money and somebody at University of Florida Florida state is going to come back with a historical document and somebody with an authority to shut it down and go no this is a sacred site and you're dead in the water at that point so I still think there needs to be homework done on it and I know it doesn't sound like it but I'm trying to protect you guys I'm trying to protect the the flats around that area and and the whole the whole effort in the whole Community because I I think if we're going to put do anything on there this is the kind of thing that should happen on there as far as the amount of homework you've done the effort you've put into it to make it um a quality project but that doesn't take care of the need for the flat that does doesn't take care of the historical side issue so I'm I'm still on a quander about this one and this is one by the way and I'm going to get in big trouble probably for saying this whatever decision we make on this will have very little bearing on what the council makes I just that's one of I really believe I believe this is one of those that's going to you know so I rest my case okay my turn I'm sorry go ahead ask about the we brought up like a a like a deed restriction was they did they did okay is that what you're talking about I just I just want restriction on the what do that what would that even look like that would extend the development agreement I mean I'm I'm sorry it would be a basically and and bar and correct me if I'm wrong but Covenant running with the land through a deed that sets forth parameters housing not the housing not I I know we're not talking about the housing go yeah I think I think the idea behind protecting the flats was the deed restriction for no motorized vehicles including boats to come to the island I think that was our way of resolving any motorized vehicles wanting to be in and around the island to protect the Bone Fish um so right now the way we were proposing to do this is you know if somebody wanted to take out a paddleboard or a kayak they could do that but there's no motorized vehicles on the island so we thought that or at least I thought that that was the way to do that so I mean if you sure okay not want to gooss that yeah and so does the surf the sailing the surfing across wind sailing across there if you want to see a fish go off well wind wind Surfer go back okay won't see that school again for about four hours anything else so the deed restriction he was referring to which you did answer but I just to clarify what we're talking about was some kind of deed restriction beyond the development agreement but restriction on the affordable units I was just making sure because we right meaning there could be a there would be a deed restriction if the property is developed that there would be no motorized vehicles just I know that there is the development agreement with the the affordables and careful how I say this yeah I want to be careful when I say this but I agree with uh when Patrick mentioned you know that these you know I don't think it should be that I don't even want to say the smoke of the affordable housing but um I'm trying to look at this island as itself I mean the the workforce housing is obviously something we need but the I'm trying still trying to weigh that environmental impact I think it's you know I resort to Tony on or Pastor Tony on that and say that that is a huge huge concern to mine and that's that's what I'm trying to figure out so so the I think the would be a covenant and restrictions running with the land not even a covenant in restrictions running with the land that would survive the development agreement and and I think everyone's comfortable with within the confines what we're well no I I appreciate that and I appreciate the clarification for the limits to that that are are being proposed which okay since van thinks I'm in your back pocket would you like to correct that thought for him I'm always open to uh listening because that's our job here um but I have um several concerns and questions about this project um one when you speak of no electric vehicles except the emergency vehicles uh before it was no electric I'm sorry all electric vehicles except emergency vehicles before it was no guests would have uh a regular car but my employees would I didn't see that in this plan uh that the employees would also park at Sunset and be um transported so that there well I just didn't see it maybe it's there there was lots of paper um I and I think that's an important thing because we we talked about the number of employes employes and the number of employees and I wish I'd had time and known known exactly where to go uh to be a five-star there are requirements and I know you're early in this process of figuring out what you're doing and how much and how many employees and you can't say exact but a five star is more than two employees per room so right there that's 50 so we're talking better than 50 employees and so even if they carpol you're talking 25 cars 20 cars 15 cars that have to be dealt with whether that's at sunset or whether that's allowed on the island because I didn't see that restriction of all I saw was the Restriction of your guest [Music] um the the Restriction of the boats um in your conversations this evening I I gathered that there would be no permanent dockage of boats on the property is that correct that it would only be a pickup dock okay um the offsite parking in using Sunset because it's I don't even know how many miles that is 5 miles 7 miles away okay I'm not going to walk it okay three miles away it doesn't matter if it's over 500 fet uh our current code says that you can do offsite barking for like 500 ft away and make an agreement I understand the development agreement can go farther than that but um 3 miles you're right it's 3 miles um is a lot farther than 500 ft and the quality um the economic status of the guests that you're shooting for so that's that's the offsite parking whether we're talking employees or guas the offsite parking for the the economic status of the uh customers that you are leaning towards if if I was one of those I wouldn't want my car that far away that's a long ways if I just decide I'd love to take the the the transportation that you're going to but if I decided I want to jump in my car that's a long ways uh let me finish you may have more you probably will have more um so I I have some concerns about that and and I'm I'm sure they do it somewhere in the world who knows uh the unity of title title between km marada and sunset um it would definitely have to be a Unity of title something that could not be wait a minute Sue don't assume that you know what I'm going to say uh it would have to be a Unity of tiles something that could never be separated because of the fact of what you think that you can get approved by doing that um and I do understand that because it was there in the past how that may come about and that that wouldn't apply to there's probably not another property in the the the county that is set up in that situation that has that ability so that would be an oddity um so I don't I I'm not I'm not going to address whether I think it ought to be um the the sunset units themselves should be considered Waterfront at that point that's going to have to be some kind of call but it would have to be a permanent Unity the other half of it is that those properties would have to be a permanent Unity with the island because if you are going to create that as your parking and as your office you can never literally never separated and it still operate as a motel out there because what's the next guy not you guys once again it's we have your word that you would do X Y and Z but it's my belief that you're not going to keep it until you're my age okay that you are going to turn around and sell it and so what is the next guy going to do if it is if it's not a 100% tight Unity it can be separated um the road size is to be determined of whether or not you think you think the existing Road uh is wide enough um I don't think so you might have a little leeway to be able to stretch it a little bit without interfering with the mangroves but that would have to be determined um I heard you say something about uh that that well first of all you said that the office the checkin and the parking would be at Sunset but then I heard you say something about an office on the island uh not as a true check-in office but as maybe just a place that people can um yeah I don't know something an on-site manager Office somebody cuz you're you can't tell me you're going to put 24 units out there without somebody supervising them trust me you're not going to do that um it it goes without saying that the uh affordables would have to be seed before the motel could be seed not not necessarily um before you break ground just seed uh the number employees we talked about that um the um the number of parking spaces that you're going to need at at Sunset um if you tear down the hotel and only put the 10,000 plus the 24 uh you you might be able to get to that number especially if you still the hotel or the the affordables so you have underneath parking um but you're looking at a pretty big number uh because of the fact that now you're talking the 24 units would require I think it's two per unit and you're looking at each uh Motel unit which I think is only one but then you have employee parking and then you have the restaurant parking or the retail space whatever that ends up being parking so that's a lot of parking [Music] um the human remains I know you've said that you tried to go to um the universities and you can't find anything in historical records about it it is been brought up more than one time um and I'm like Tony I think it probably needs to be checked out those those bones could be anything from a chicken that died no they fan just bear with me uh to something historical um but until it's and I don't I don't know how you go about that but it is one of the concerns that's going on um [Music] this project in in my belief and I have stated this in the past Victor I'll speak to you direct on this is that it needs to stand alone and I understand that we have this huge need for affordable but it needs to to um be able to meet all the the bells and whistles all by itself and the enticement of the affordables or the enticement of helping with the fills all of that is wonderful and I understand that you need the the project the island in order to help make the affordables happen I I I understand the relationship ship but that doesn't mean that the affordables should be the driving factor in my book for the island the driving factor in my book is the island itself tonight's conversation isn't about Sunset it isn't about Kasa marada it isn't about the Phils it's about the island all of that being said it's a bigger project we don't get to vote on all that bigger project project but it is a factor that we have to take into consideration um do we do we yeah 24 is just a drop in the bucket of what we need in housing but as I said when I said even on an affordable committee one is better than none 24 is better than one and a 100 would be wonderful but we don't have that in front of us you are offering to try to build 24 um we don't have any definitions I don't believe in our code of you are given 24 deed restricted affordable units and it doesn't say whether or not they would be low medium or high I don't believe this I'm working off of some memory here but okay um do do I think that we need another uh a more high-end project than what we have in this town that's a business decision that should not be our decision do we think that um the parking of the cars is too far away that's really a business decision not our decision it doesn't mean that all of us think about all of that stuff and ends up being part of our discussion um environment is very important out there we have to I am a believer of environment but I am also a believer that we can't stand still and that as Jim was saying that this is an opportunity to um do a development that's green that it needs it needs upgrades out there it sunset needs upgrades we know all of this is going to happen someday but are we ready for the way you want to do this I don't know um we are an Advisory Board and as I told you privately once you really don't need our approval I know you would like our approval but we are an Advisory Board and more times than not the vill the council doesn't necessarily listen to us but we do get to voice our opinion and the public gets to voice their opinion here that's all I got for right now to call a question I have can I make one comment okay sure I mean sure a lot of this discussion that we've been going through seems like we're talking past the sale we're talking about what's going to happen how many parking spots uh is a road wide enough and and I've yet to maybe I missed it but I have yet to hear what the compelling extraordinary reason is that we should change this zoning I agree I has anybody told me an applicant question I think yes well I I have not heard it or did I may did I miss it what's the question what is the compelling extraordinary reason to change the zoning there is none the the the truth is this it it wasn't a business mistake it no it was it was a personal decision to buy that Island right and and I bought that Island during covid because I thought it was a great Island and it was a great investment um the idea of this resort was me trying to come up with something that I thought that everybody here would love and something new that I think would be a great addition to the uh to the Village period right if if it doesn't get approved by the council which with you know whatever you guys recommend or not recommend then you know we probably will be in front of you with actually not in front of you cuz we don't have to come in front of you to build a big house we'll probably tear down that house we'll still bring in Phil and we're going to build a big house and you know at that point nobody gets to enjoy the island my dream of a resort is gone but it is what it is so I I I accept that you know but my point is I thought that for us as LPA we to change zoning to change the flum that we need an extraordinary and exceptional rationale to do that I have not yeah I don't I don't think that I don't think that there needs to be an exceptional rationale for rezoning because I mean I was in front of you rezoning parmly and and there was no exceptional rationale there so I don't think that that's a requirement for a for rezoning or flum change uh it's you know it's whatever you guys feel as a recommendation to see what's best for the village if you don't think that this is what's best for the village then recommend against it and we'll get a vote and we'll decide whether we do this or not thank you any other comments from the board um somebody want to make a motion I moveed to deny the application for the change how we going to which one first the flum or the Z always have to do the flum first we have to do the flum first okay which page am I on well we we move to deny okay we recommend denial of the change to the flum for the property as presented by the applicant to to leave it as um to leave it as it is okay to not change it to mixed juice why don't you add that in to den the application for change okay we have a first second we have a second you have roll call sh C yes P FY yes I had to Think Through It Tony hamrun no Susan R yes Jean fry no Lorie Theon no and Deb Gillis yes motion to deny passes [Music] 43 okay um John we now have turned down this um FL do we need to vote on the zoning I I think you should because it's it's pending as a recommendation um before the uh the LPA I mean obviously the the resoning is contingent on the flum change but right I think we should have a separate motion on it okay um I need a motion on the zoning make it okay go ahead we on I'll make it the I'll make a motion to deny the the zoning change uh to to tourist commercial as presented second I have a first and a second Deb Gil yes ra yes sh C yes Patrick foby yes Tony hman yes V the yes and J Ry yes motion to deny passes s to zero thank you it's always difficult to to make a motion that's the negative and vote Yes on it sorry thank you gentlemen we appreciate your time you need to all right thank you thanks for staying Cher um with Cheryl's leaving we still have Quorum so we can continue on Cheryl you can call in are you going to try to call in sure call on Zo yes okay um but we're going to move on is you okay with that because hopefully we'll be done before you all right uh tab oh it's not tab um it is tab but number um e e yep uh and just as a reminder um for the public that uh if you are intending to submit public comment um you're required to have your public comment cards in at the time that each agenda item is called thank you uh e is is an ordinance of vam Village violence Florida amending Chapter 30 Land Development regulations of article four administrative procedures section 30- 221 variances in general with a village code relating to variances from minimum lot area requirements where Workforce supportable housing is provided providing for the repeal of all code provisions and ordinances inconsistent with this ordinance providing for severability providing for inclusion in the code providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the floor Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon approval of this ordinance by the Florida Department of Commerce thank you um as you may recall this uh a similar ordinance was before the LPA last year and then went before the council and then last July was not approved by the council in its um standing then um the STA the council asked staff to take a look at bringing uh ordinance back with the change to allow it for affordable housing projects only so that's what you have before you this evening uh there are six Parcels um in the village uh which would be affected by this uh allowed variance um so the proposed amendment is consistent with the approach in many municipalities to allow for an opportunity to seek a variance in connection with minimum lot area requirements an applicant will be required to meet all the standards associated with variance relief noted in section 30- 221 of The Village code uh in addition a lot area variance would be limited to the maximum of 5% or 250 square ft whichever is less of the minimum required lot area standard and would only be allowed for their creation of affordable housing at this time staff recommends adoption of the ordinance okay okay this just makes sense we've had this before so we had this discussion there's only only a few Parcels that um that this would be applicable for and and now with the Restriction to only allow Workforce housing that's an even larger benefit so you're not going to be able to build a residential home on it you just be able to build something that we need so um I I think it's a no-brainer we need public comment we do you want me to go to doing public comment before we all got started yeah I'm getting a little well we we'll we'll take a time out do I have public comment on this okay oh I do hang on Su Miller it was a year ago zomer lower mumi I think this is something was already rejected and now it's limited to affordable housing we always take advantage of we affordable housing and and um if if it was restricted to only those properties that could not otherwise be built on it's one thing but to keep adding a variance it just doesn't make any sense to me they they can still ask for a variance right so I don't understand why you would do this thank you any other public comment anybody on Zoom no all right anybody else uh you want to repeat anything or anybody else have a comment I'll go if not Jim you got anything you want to say about it uh I'm okay no I think um Lori touched on it well you know I think we already looked at this and now it's coming back with a little bit stricter I think this was at Jennifer this the council's request right yes yeah yes um yes we did look at it it was a little over a year ago I think at the time we we overall approved it it was a 5 to2 from what I could see um I think uh with a little more restriction on it being affordable um yes we do a lot of allowances for affordable but uh it seems like we need to in order to to make any Headway on this so I I I agree with this also anybody else I need a motion uh motion to approve second I have a first and a second roll call Tony yes [Music] yes I don't think she's in a position yet to be able to so we'll skip no [Music] yes yes you did you did uh yes that's all right [Music] all right moving on to the next uh tab F Yep this is an ordinance of ibr Village of violence Florida amending Chapter 30 Land Development regulations article two rules and construction and definitions section 30-32 of the village code relating to fronting providing for severability providing for inclusion in the code and providing for an effective date um this item is also being being brought at the request of the council um there was some uh discussion uh at the uh the last Council meetings related to uh what the term fronting means in the village code uh it uh we' previously been relying on a dictionary on the dictionary definition although uh there had been a determination unrelated to uh what I would call a land use application but related to an address change uh for a property that was um uh originally had an address on uh the Old Highway and sought an address change on the onto US1 and uhu used uh used the term fronting and defined allowed for the address change because the um there was an unbuildable lot between the Old Highway and US1 and the council had asked for us to bring back an uh an ordinance uh to put a definition into the code uh to clarify and confirm that uh fronting uh means that you are actually um adjoining or or adjacent to that uh I'm sorry adjoining that uh uh whatever the location is and so the the definition being added is is quite simple just says fronting means the front of a parcel which is adjoining a specified location okay public comments did Van you got your sheet in uh I'm not sure I got my sheet in on this one nope sorry we've repeated it twice tonight so sorry Joe wishm Joe Joe will pick up the slack For [Laughter] You Joe wishm Plantation key this has been discussed a number of times here and I think this could really start a bad precedent just kind of like what we're doing with the waterfront property well if it's if it's an unbuildable lot between you and US1 that should be self-explanatory you're not on US1 there's a lot there well what's going to happen if there's a house with another lot can you buy that and then turn both of those lots into Frontage so I think you really need to be careful on what slip slope that you're going to go down or what precedent you might get get started here fronting means it should be you go out onto US1 nothing to do with the old highway thank you thank you exactly did you have a comment just to be clear that's what this definition does right I'm not sure I don't disagree with that which at this point I guess shouldn't be a surprise to anybody um I I'm like yeah I'm not reading that either I I I watched the city council meeting where this was raised so I feel like I've got a good handle on on what the issue was and I also understand why the council needs a definition or would like a definition of fronting but here we have the word adjoin and when I heard John um get it confused with adjacent it doubled down on my concern because a joining and adjacent are typically synonyms and you go to our code and what does our code say adjacent land means a parcel of land sharing a boundary with another parcel of land sounds good so far but it goes on for the purpose of a plan an intervening Road ride of way easeman or Canal shall not destroy the adjacency of the two Parcels so when we have the parcel that I understood was being discussed but even take out that particularity away we've got an Old Highway then we often have a rideway or an easement with that median and then we have you one this definition does not do what I believe the city council wanted and what to me personally makes sense which is what Joe just said fronting means on if we leave it as a joining we're going to just lead to we're just going to create the same problem we're supposed to be that the city council wanted fixed which is what does the word adjacent land mean and you yeah that's why I use the term adjoining instead of adjacent sorry but right but even you in your intro accidentally use the phrase adjacent and there is no definition of a joining in our code so I mean whether it's adding in a definition of joining you can always say there's no definition and then you just create another definition and another definition and another definition at some point you just got to use common sense and turn to the dictionary definition adjoining is not adjacent we have a specified term definition of what adjacent is and that's spe specifically why I use the term adjoining if we were to use the term the word on I mean that could mean it's physically on top of the road I mean again there there's always going to be some sort of uh argument that you can make but at some point we have to to try to use some some sort of common sense I mean the issue that Mr wishme raised about uh you know unifying properties across um across roads or canal that's that's a separate issue um that frankly would require a code change which could could do a code change that takes out the ability to unify properties across um roads and across canals but that's that's not what this would do or fix I mean that's a totally separate issue this is can you utilize a a um uh the the fact that there's an unbuildable lot to say oh you know what we are in fact on US1 well I I I don't know John that I that I agree with the interpretation of Mr wish me's comments I I heard him to say if you had two adjoining properties one of which was on us one and then the back lot for example was not on us one you can combine those two lots you've got twice this density and you can now have twice the project because you're fronting US1 um and you can have different options for your project I didn't hear that the concern was leaping a canal that concern is my concern by the use of the word adjoining which is gets very confused with adjacent because only if you go down the road of adjacent do you start jumping easements rights of way and canals to be able to say what you're fronting on I I I I don't mean this to be critical I'm just trying to fulfill what this what I understood the Village Council wanted to do which is to get a definition of fronting which was very clear not subject to debate um by folks and you know share a boundary with it seems it I understand that adjoining is a different word than adjacent but without a definition of ajoining people are going to look to the next best thing which is adjacent in our code I just don't think it's as clear as what it could be could we say directly attached to yeah because great I mean I mean I I see that in real estate all the time where people feel as though that they have a an ocean front property or a Bayfront property just because their their property adjoins or or their boundary line attaches to a homeowner's Park well they that's not that's not Waterfront they got a water view but they don't have a waterfront but in their mind they think they got waterfrontage right because they say well I'm adjacent to it like well yes but no so I can see the same kind of argument I mean I think it needs to like share this same boundary share the same boundary line there needs to be a line that's definitive let me make a comment I think that this discussion here proves that is not clear yeah it does pardon okay so um Madam Madam chair I had I had no idea that this is going to be discussed tonight and I would have put in one of these it was tab F on the agenda okay okay put in tab F but I I did not realize it was fronting which I've already addressed in front of the council sit down please sit down please sit down we do have public comment though you already had public comment though I thought there's a no I don't we have more public com I asked you and you said you didn't I asked if we had any more Sue she had one in but we started rambling after yeah come on sue you had one in MH okay start Su lower mumi I agree with Mr fley this is creating confusion among the people that are the most knowledgeable about land use can you imagine what it would do to the applicant I I just can't see how you could um pass this until it's really clear thank you nope nope not going to do it when she's chair you can speak all right so um John what do you recommend that we do because obviously we can just flat out deny this uh because we do not agree with the term used and then you either way you can take it to council and either get them to agree or disagree with the terms that you've used yeah I mean it's just a vote up or down I mean I would point out I mean I'm looking at the dictionary definition a joint and adjacent are different I mean a joint is is um uh to be next to and adjacent is uh to lie near or near so I mean near and next to are totally different um okay so but yeah whatever you guys want to do and then we can bring it forward to the council with your recommendation so we we're we're supposed to vote one way or the other we can take it with recommendations like we've done the others or we need to vote it up or down I think we do I mean Jennifer do you have any do you make a motion to deny wait wait wait sorry a young gentleman you have a comment on it um only that I mean the council saw this exact language John and I brought them several different options and this is the one that they chose so well did we ever I'd like them to be honest we have been known to disagree with them before yeah no no doubt no doubt if that's what they chosen to do why do they need us because yeah I'll say this we because we deal with it a lot when surveying and and construction you know the land planning term I believe is a boundary line we should incorporate that and if that was already brought to them and they didn't like it then we can deny it and recommend that they use the word uh boundary line could we be you know maybe uh the The Optimist and approve it with the recommendation of using the word boundary line with the I mean I don't know if that's possible if I'm hearing it right doing a mental survey here uh it sounds like that nobody wants to approve this phrase this this definition I got you you so that's better so so that would be we need to either approve it or deny it then I can add when I report it that we denied it but if you Chang the word gotta we would approve it fron Frontage is I would ask that I would definitely ask that you make a recommendation so that it can be presented to uh the council and you know they can they can decide was um Jim what was the phrase that you used the boundary yeah boundary boundary line okay so I still need a motion hold on John I think John's trying to talk too yeah I was going to say I think I need a little more than that or I think Deb would need a little more than just the boundary line I assume you're asking you're saying the the the boundary line of the front of the parcel touches um the boundary of that specified location or something like that yes something along those lines so U no thank you yeah yeah come on Bo no I'm I think I mean we read the room you saw what happened no make make a motion I would I like to I mean I would I wanted I don't want to deny it and then it come back so I would say that come back to us it's going to council so my motion would be to approve it with the the change in verbiage um as I know John tried to get it off I kind of heard it peace meal but with the boundary line assumption and that being I changing the verbiage to boundary line yeah that would be my motion changing the verbiage to that the fronting means that the front of the subject paral boundary line is uh I don't think we have to come up with the exact ver yeah I don't want to I'm still confused I say we deny it and add that language suggested language in I would I think the council's going to try to get this I mean it was brought to us for reasons so right no they're they're going to adopt something but I just think that what is here does not address even the very specific issue that was before at the time and is going to lead to more debates among councel and staff than it would if we had a bit of clarification in it so in my view I think this gets denied and when it's reported to council um Deb can indicate was denied and that um the uh LPA the reason for it is due to the ambiguity with the word adjoining um because there are different dictionary definitions of it um and uh suggest that it share a boundary with or something similar and then the council is going to do what the council wants to do okay so so can I redact my motion and try again so he's going okay so you I was going to say just so we're clear you had a motion on the floor so I didn't want us to I'm sign your motion and you're going to make a new one correct I read the room my motion is going to be to deny with the recommendation that they rework the verbage to associate the term boundary line and that's it that's perfect I'll second it okay we have a first and a second last iteman yes yes s rafella yes Patrick FY yes de Gill yes Tony Haron yes and Lor yes motion to deny passes 6 to Z okay so the only other business um that I think this Board needs to be aware of at least is that at the June assuming nothing changes the June meeting uh there will be a vote taken on um the seating arrang Ms at this table not Arrangement seating What's the phrase I of who who who will be sitting on term what what terms that we actually have it was supposed to be a counil meeting you mean huh they just council meeting yeah yeah or you meant your June meeting no no the June council meeting I'm sorry they will be sitting they will be voting on our terms um it was supposed to be twoe staggered terms no definition no explanation of how we were to get to staggered so now they've decided to at least start it off with a three-year in a two-year I think we all received an email just so everybody is aware of that going forward um and with that is there any other business from John you're still online yep nothing from me and again I want to thank everybody for uh for letting me attend via zoom and uh uh it was I was say sorry for for that but it was just a freak accident and uh but thank thank you again for for working with me well we're just glad you're able to attend and it wasn't that freak of an accident so thanks John and hope you feel better and Jennifer do you have anything else nothing just your next meeting is scheduled for June 10th June 10th okay and anybody at the table have anything I need one motion move to a j yes and a second second yes yes show of favor yes yes sir thank for